Art Bell

All Episodes

Previous Next

Sept. 1, 1997 - Art Bell

03:25:13

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland with Ron Nicks - Mars Images. David Oates

Participants

Main voices

01:28:33

david oates

16:18

richard c hoagland

43:25

Appearances

Clips

don savage

00:47

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Show episode speakers

Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM 1500 KSTP.
		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be across all these many time zones, stretching from the Hawaiian and the Asian Island chains eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands soon.
		Puerto Rico coming up very quickly now.
		South into South America, north all the way to the Pole.
		I know a lot more about that these days.
		This is Coast Coast AM, and I'm Martell.
		Great to be here.
		Great to be back.
		And as you know, or maybe you don't, if you weren't listening carefully, I have for a week been in Alaska.
		And the sights I have seen, the things I have done, tremendous.
		It was a wonderful, short but wonderful vacation.
		And I've got a lot of people to thank.
		And if you want to get a taste of what I saw and what I did, I came home late last night.
		And today, during the day, I scanned, oh, I don't know, probably 15 photographs of the trip.
		And you can go up to the website and take a look.
		And I'll describe a little bit of what you're going to see, I guess.
		I've got a lot of people I do want to thank.
		So, and I will not by any means be able to get to all of them.
		At KINY in Juneau, of course, I would like to thank Chris Burns, who was essentially our host there and guide, took us to the Mendenhall Glacier, which is an amazing sight to behold.
		And you can behold it on the website because I've got a photograph up there.
		Matter of fact, Chris Burns took that photograph at the Mendenhall Glacier and took us down and let us see the salmon running and all the rest of it.
		So that photograph you see of Ramona and myself in front of a glacier sitting there was taken by Chris Burns at KINY, our affiliate there.
		And I'd like to say hi to Brad Gregory, the Boardoc.
		A special hello, of course, to Charlie Gray.
		You will see.
		Charlie Gray is an amazing man.
		He was actually the chief engineer at KENI in Anchorage when I was there, lo, all those 22 years ago.
		I think it was about 22, 25, somewhere in there.
		Charlie Gray was at KENI.
		Now, Charlie Gray is at KINY in Juneau, where he is the chief engineer and still climbs a tower.
		And to me, has not aged one day.
		I don't understand it.
		There's something up there that preserves people.
		He climbs a tower.
		He's 76 years old, and he still climbs the tower.
		He does the tower work.
		Hey, Charlie, you'll see your photograph up there.
		And then at KENI in Anchorage, where I had a blast, I would like to ask, well, I guess I would like to thank, actually, host and our guide in Anchorage, Wayne Maloney, Program Director of KENI in Anchorage, Lori Hamlin, the promotions director who got all this started.
		And we did an hour show up there at KENI, live on the air, signed a bunch of books and photographs and so forth.
		And then our hosts at the Alaska Air National Guard, 210th Rescue Squadron.
		Oh, boy, I'll tell you about that.
		Arranged by Neil Brunton, Brunton, I guess it is, B-R-U-N-T-O-N, Neil Brunton, Major, who was, unfortunately, at the time we got up there, ill and had just come out of the hospital.
		Nevertheless, turned us over to Major Norm Lagasse, Scott Hamilton, Tom Bolan, and Tad.
		We didn't get Tad's last name.
		And we got to play with, and I say play with, and I mean play with, a Blackhawk helicopter.
		Oh man, what a machine that is.
		You will see photographs of that up there, and I'll tell you some stuff about a Blackhawk.
		And then Steve London, an old friend from that quarter century ago, and Gene Shedlock, who provided a photograph.
		Gene found a photograph, and Steve got it, and they both came to see us.
		And you're going to get a good laugh out of this.
		I scanned that this afternoon.
		You will see the crew at KENI Radio 25 years ago.
		And you will see me in that photograph.
		It actually appeared on the back of one of our surveys.
		And so I stole it off one of the back of our surveys and scanned it.
		And you will see Art Bell standing there on the far right-hand side with very long hair.
		That was me 25 years ago in Alaska.
		And so this was a return to my old alma mater.
		And I had a grand, we all had a very grand time indeed.
		Very grand time.
		Alaska is a land that, the majesty of which, the character of which, it is not really possible to attach proper words to.
		I can show you photographs and I can talk to you about its majesty.
		But it was as I remembered it.
		Now, of course, Anchorage had changed.
	Spenara, the area where I lived, had changed dramatically.
	But Alaska is and always will be, in my lifetime anyway, a land of majesty that defies description.
	We got down into the Yukon territories, or Yukon territory, I suppose I ought to say.
	And you will see photographs of glaciers and areas that we were in the Yukon and Skagway, Alaska, Juneau, the ice fields, College Fjord, and on and on and on.
	So if you get an opportunity to get the website, by all means, please do that.
	So it was all in all a wonderful trip.
	I'll tell you some interesting things about a Black Hawk helicopter.
	They can do things with that helicopter, with the systems they have on board.
	Now, they are used in this case to rescue people who frequently get stuck out in the mountains, on the ice, in the water, lost, souls, that sort of thing.
	But the equipment they have on board that enables them to do that can also do a lot of very other interesting things.
	I mean, they can literally look down at your house with a new device that senses a difference in temperature.
	And it does not matter what that difference is.
	A few degrees, one way or the other.
	And they can literally paint a picture.
	And I mean a picture very nearly approximating a photograph based on the heat differences.
	We got to play with all of that stuff, and it was a blast.
	So you'll see us perch in some cases outside or inside a black hawk.
	And it was really fun.
	Really fun.
	So thank you all.
	Now, since we were basically sailing, for the most part, domestic waters, we had access to all of the news.
	And of course, I saw all the coverage of Princess Dies, a death.
	And indeed, a tragedy.
	When I began hearing about it, when I began hearing about it, I thought right away, and I told my wife and everybody else around, that I thought it was a little early and the judgments they made were too early because I couldn't see how a Mercedes,
	much less an armored Mercedes, could be forced off the road by a bunch of photographers on motorcycles.
	It just didn't seem right to me.
	And of course, late news confirms there is more to the story than that.
	As reprehensible as the actions of the paparazzi were, stalkerazzi, whatever they're calling them, I don't think, I don't think, very important line, that they were the cause of the accident.
	It now turns out the driver had three times the legal level of alcohol in his blood.
	Now turns out he was driving, you know, it's a little bit foggy here, but the speedometer was stuck at 198 kilometers per hour.
	That'd be about 122 miles an hour.
	That may or may not be right, but they were going very, very fast.
	And he lost control of that car.
	Now, whether the paparazzi had any hand in that or not is not yet known.
	The one surviving witness may be able to tell us more about that.
	But the fact of the matter is that all of the early hand-ringing and finger-pointing, which the press normally does, because they've got to have a story.
	They've got to figure it out.
	And in the beginning, they figured out the whole thing was caused by the paparazzi.
	So they were going to blame the paparazzi.
	And I was hesitating.
	I was saying, no, I don't, you know, maybe, I mean, you could theorize that one of them got in front of the automobile and tried to take a picture and blinded the guy.
	And, you know, that might have occurred.
	But the indications are that the paparazzi will be charged with nothing more serious than not aiding in an accident, but instead taking photographs.
	The horrible thing to imagine and to contemplate is that Princess I was apparently conscious for a period of time just during.
	And so you can imagine that she suffered.
	And I would imagine she did.
	Not a good deal.
	And they worked on her, of course, for hours.
	So to me, this looks more like a drunk driver than it does the fault of the paparazzi.
	They're just what they are.
	Scavengers.
	Nothing good to say about them, but I'm leaning toward not believing that they were the cause, the cause of agent of the accident.
	They were just the vultures to pick metaphorically at the bodies of the victims as they do.
	So far, nobody's biting on the existing, apparently existing footage of Prince's Dy's final moments, and I hope they don't.
	There is nothing to be revealed in my mind by us being able to see that.
	I have no desire to see it.
	I can imagine very well what it was like.
	I was a medic in the Air Force, and I saw enough of bodies without all their parts and so forth and so on to not need to see that or want to see it.
	So that would appear to be the big story.
	Along with, of course, what's going on with these bounty hunters who went bounty hunting into the wrong house.
	A couple of them got shot.
	They shot two innocent people.
	Bounty hunting is a very unusual, very, very unusual occupation that gets its legal reason for being from a law that dates back into the 1800s.
	And this will bring up much hand-wringing and a finger-pointing at the bounty hunters, and some of it rightfully so in this particular case.
	But this case is rather unusual.
	There have been many, many, many suspects retrieved by bounty hunters without this sort of thing going on.
	And they made a mistake.
	Even the FBI and police occasionally do that.
	They go bounding into the wrong house.
	And people are prepared generally to protect themselves, not against seven-armed men.
	But at least this guy got bullets in a couple of them.
	And he should have been sitting there with a 12-gauge, and he might have blown a few of them away.
	That's the kind of gun that I prefer for close-range protection in the house.
	A good pump, 12-gauge shotgun full of double-aught will generally stop anybody or perhaps several somebodies.
	And that's a weapon I favor close at hand.
	At any rate, those are the two major stories going on.
	We've got a week of very interesting guests coming up.
	Now, Zahi Hawass will not be here.
	I talked to Dr. Hawass earlier today, and he is going to give me a personal tour at Giza of the pyramids.
	And he said, Art, you know, my coming as a guest will be much more dramatic if you have seen exactly what you want to see at Giza.
	And you come to my office, we'll arrange a personal tour, and then we will do an interview on the air.
	So the Zahi Huass interview is postponed.
	The James von Vrag interview, also postponed, probably until the 12th, but I'm not sure.
	We'll find out tomorrow the story on that.
	Otherwise, let me see.
	Tonight at midnight, we will have Richard Hoagland here, along with the Braun Nix and the newest discoveries on Mars.
	And boy, do they have, and David John Oates may be here as well.
	They all have information for you that is going to amaze you with regard to Mars.
	So you're not going to want to miss that.
	That will be at midnight.
	But I wanted to give a period of time here to talk about Alaska, to tell you what a wonderful time we had, and to tell you the photographs are up there and that sort of thing, and to talk a little bit about Princess Dai.
	I'm not going to dwell on this because the media has been doing nothing else.
	With a holiday weekend and not a lot of news, the coverage of the death of Princess Dai has been non-stop.
	And I watched a lot of the early, and I was kind of humored, frankly, by some of the early coverage on CNN, in which humored may be a poor term, but I watched the various tabloid people being interviewed, and they literally got on there and were pointing fingers at each other.
	Oh, you don't buy that kind of photograph.
	Oh, yes, you do.
	As a matter of fact, you've been bidding against us.
	You know, that sort of thing.
	So I heard somebody earlier tonight say it, and I think it's right.
	There's probably enough blame to go around.
	But the way I see it right now, the guy at the wheel was drunk times three with regard to the legal limit, doing an incredible speed.
	And the Mercedes factory on their website has a little thing that says, you know, even Mercedes cannot defy the law of physics.
	And if you plow into concrete doing 100 and some odd miles per hour, the law of physics dictates precisely what is going to occur, and that is what occurred.
	The regret I have, of course, for the princess's children, who will now have to grow up without a mother.
	And she was indeed a very gracious lady who did a lot of good work and did not deserve to die at that young an age.
	That's too young.
	36, too young.
	I've had a pretty good life.
	I'm going to be 53 in June and would not have as many regrets.
	Not that once you're dead, you're going to need to have regrets at all.
	But would, you know, at least I've had a life.
	At 36, you're just moving into it.
	In another decade or two or three, that's fine.
	If not, why, I've had a pretty good life, the way I look at it.
	Anyway, we will go into open lines between now and midnight, and then prepare thyself for Mars.
	Six though.
	You've got nothing to lose but the pain.
	All right.
	By the way, this Friday, Friday night, Saturday morning, instead of the person we had scheduled, James von Prague, we're going to have Albert Taylor here.
	Remember Albert Taylor?
	He's the soul traveler guy.
	They're going to be making a movie out of his book.
	As a matter of fact, he's written a screenplay for it.
	And I thought it was just about time to have him back, so he'll be here Friday night, Saturday morning.
	We've got quite a stellar week ahead.
	In the next hour and a half, nothing but open lines, your comments, and I'm sure you have many.
	Don't forget, the pictures are up on the web right now.
	You will definitely want to go take a look.
	is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		When it's all right, it's coming.
		Oh, we gotta get right back where we started from.
		Love is good, love is wrong.
		Gotta get right back to where it's done from.
		Oh, my God.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
unidentified		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess it's good evening, some of you, depending on where you are.
		And we are back.
		So, what I'm going to do is I'm going to, in a moment, go to the telephones and just see what's out there.
		And we're going to kind of warm up toward Hoagland and Company at midnight.
		Tomorrow night, Merle Haggard is going to be here, incidentally.
		And I'm certainly looking forward to that.
		So, lots to do, lots of places to go and things to talk about, and that would be with you.
		Let us begin, shall we?
		West of the Rockies, top of the morning, you're on the air.
unidentified		Yes, good evening, Mayor.
unidentified		This is Ken in Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Ken.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
unidentified		I'm doing fine.
		You know, I was just listening to your previous local show here, Lou Epton, and they're talking about the tragedy in Paris.
		Yes.
		You know, I was thinking just when it happened, I was, you know, when it happened, I just thought it was just an accident and that it was just paparazzi to blame.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never thought that.
unidentified		Well, I thought a lot of things don't make sense.
unidentified		First of all, if paparazzis are on motor scooters, motor scooters go up to 35 miles per hour.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they're on motorcycles.
unidentified		Well, some reports said motor scooters.
		But anyway, also, number two, that the Mercedes had was dark tinted.
		It has dark tinted windows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		So that means even if they try to take a picture, all they see, you can't see in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Except for one possibility.
unidentified		What's that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that would be it is not legal to tint the front window.
		So you could imagine that a paparazzi might have tried to get in front of the vehicle and might have tried to take a picture toward the vehicle, blinding the driver.
		That's the only way you could imagine that that might have occurred.
		But I'm in doubt about that.
		I think what we've got here is a drunk driver.
unidentified		But also another question, why would Princess Dye and this billionaire boyfriend, how would they have common sense to have this chauffeur, I mean, this guy has got a blood alcohol level three times the normal limit.
		You could tell, I mean, how could they trust someone to go behind a wheel, drive behind a wheel?
		This guy's blood alcoholist, so you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They might not have known.
unidentified		Well, I think if someone had a blood alcohol like 0.22, I mean, it would be obvious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hired 1.75 or something like that, but around 2.
unidentified		All right.
		I don't want to sound like a conspiracy, you know, get into conspiracies and stuff, but all I can say is that a lot of the accounts are starting to be contradictory.
		They're not adding up.
		I agree.
		And being an investigative freelance reporter, freelance, I'm trying to sift out what is valid, what is not.
		I just don't see cut and dry as being paparazzi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, well, what I don't see here, sir, thank you, is some sort of there are a lot of people saying she was killed.
		They didn't want her around, all the rest of this.
		I don't buy into that.
		I think the paparazzi in some way might have been involved.
		The police now are holding them only, I understand, for not aiding in an accident.
		But instead, no doubt, like the vultures, they are picking at the bones of the dead and dying by taking photographs and not having.
		To me, it seems more like a drunk driver.
		That's at least my take on it.
		All right, let me see.
		What am I doing here?
		Why is that staying on?
		Okay, that's better.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess it's not better.
		I didn't press the right button.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
unidentified		This is Sarah in Kingston, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Sarah.
unidentified		Welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I was really fascinated by the media and how they dealt with Diana.
unidentified		I was watching Saturday night, the Sunday morning BBC broadcast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And that, as you know, was the first time that this issue of the paparazzi and the media's reflectiveness started.
		And from then on, everybody picked up on it.
		And to me, the media basically used it as an excuse to talk about themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure that that would be considered something they would want to do.
		They did it because the early news was that the paparazzis were to blame.
		I just couldn't see how that could possibly be, and I still, frankly, doubt that is the case.
		I think they just were a bunch of what they are vultures.
unidentified		Well, I agree with you.
		But one of the things that I have noticed over the past few years is that when something like this happens, initially the media seems to be reporting the incident, and then they're sort of reporting on how well they cover the incident.
		And to me, this is just part of the media being enamored of itself.
		And I just, to me, I'm just fascinated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I had very personal experience with the media after the Heavensgate business.
		And what I learned is the media, as soon as the story breaks, they pick up on how they're going to cover it and what their angle is going to be.
		And their angle, they decided, would be the pavarazzi.
		And yes, then they got, I watched CNN very carefully, and they got the National Inquirer, and they got all the rest of them on there as many as they could, and they were all pointing fingers at each other, and they were saying, well, we don't do that.
		Well, we don't bid on that kind of picture.
		Well, we only had her on the cover 47 times.
		Well, you know, this and that, and blaming each other.
		And I sat there thinking there's more to it.
		They ought to wait.
		But they didn't.
		And the media will decide the way it wants to tell a story.
		And then when something comes along to spoil their angle on a story, in this case, the fact that the driver was drunk, they don't know what to do.
		And for about, oh, I would say, eight to ten hours after the news broke about the driver being drunk, they were still on the paparazzi angle because they didn't know how to leave it.
unidentified		Right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, well.
unidentified		Anyway, Wells, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call, and have a good morning.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Martin Yard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, my name's Ed, and I'm from the state of Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Ed.
unidentified		Yeah, and I've been pretty interested in your program about the mysteries, secrets of the Bible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're talking about the Bible codes, right?
unidentified		Yeah, the Bible code.
		Right.
		So I sent you a book called The Mark, the Name, the Number, and the Image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I registered, and you received it at Brump there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure we have it, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, and I took 10 years of research, and I broke that code.
unidentified		And in that book, you'll find all the information as to why that code is in there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got a question for you, if that's the case.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why is there a code in the Bible at all?
unidentified		It's because it's something that we've done as a modern society or modern man.
		I beg your pardon?
		It's something we've done way in the past as modern man.
		We did it?
		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did it.
		Now, wait a minute.
		I thought the Bible was the Word of God.
unidentified		If you get in there and read my book, you'll find out that there is other influences along with Saul.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		then the Bible is not solely the word of God.
		Well, you know, I've written play games with, you know...
		Look, the question is, who puts the code in there?
		Man or God?
unidentified		Man did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Man put it in there?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then the Bible is not solely the Word of God.
unidentified		Yeah, my book is not about religion.
unidentified		It's about the history of man and what that secret code is all about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, read your book and maybe do an interview with you, all right?
unidentified		Yeah, I think you probably would after you read the book, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much, and take care.
		It seems to me you cannot have your godly cake and eat it too, in this case.
		If there is a code there, and that code was put in there by man, then the words had to be manipulated by man.
		Am I wrong?
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Earl.
		Well, it's great to have you back on the air for us.
		Good to be here.
		Why don't you crash Keith and the website?
		It looks fantastic the way the degree works, dude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there's a brand new website designed.
		Thank you, Keith, as always.
		You worked very, very hard on that, I might add.
		Oh, I bet.
		Have you seen any of the Alaska photos yet?
unidentified		I haven't gotten to see that yet, but I also want to mention that it's fantastic to see the stock was crushing over 1,000 points.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, we're over about 1,200 right now, Annette.
unidentified		At 1,200?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah, I got 170 shares at 88, so that was really nice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're a rich man.
unidentified		Right.
		Have a great evening.
		I'm looking forward to hearing the guys at midnight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you.
		Listen, that's right.
		Go up to the website.
		You can still go over to the Rogue Market.
		And we're having a lot of fun with that.
		More fun than you can possibly imagine.
		My stock is up through the roof, and it is going to continue.
		And you can still do it.
		I would estimate that my stock, oh, say in another month, will be 10 times the level it is right now.
		So obviously, it is a very, very good time to go over to the rogue market.
		And you just go up on my website, www.artbell.com, and after you've seen the Alaska photographs, which are really cool.
		And it took a lot to get them up there, by the way.
		We had to get all of the photographs developed in Alaska so that we had them when I got home.
		And we got home last night.
		I got a few hours' sleep, got up this morning, and scanned those photographs so they would be on there for tonight.
		Fast work.
unidentified		Whoosh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At any rate, While you're up there taking a look, click also on the rogue market.
		There you will go over and fill out a form and you get $10,000 rogue dollars.
		Fill out another form and you get $15,000 rogue dollars.
		Then proceed into the area where you can, I think it's listings.
		You need to click on listings and then talk rate.
		When you go over there and take a look, and you'll be able to buy shares of Art Bell.
		All the talk show host, the major syndicated talk show host, from Howard Stern to Dr. Laura to Rush to Ollie North to Tom Likas to myself and more.
		And you can buy stock.
		And if you buy our Art Bell stock now, I can assure you that within a month you're going to be a very rich rogue market person.
		It's kind of fun because it gives you an idea of how to play in the stock market and to see what happens to your money.
		It's really very much like the real stock market.
		I understand you can win prizes too.
		Now, speaking of the real stock market, it's going to be rather interesting to see what it does when it opens in the morning and during the week.
		It looks as though we are in a bit of a bear market.
		We're down several hundred points from the peak point.
		Now, it'll be interesting to see how much of a correction we have over, say, the next two months, but I'm anticipating 15 or 20 percent.
		East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just fine.
unidentified		I was just calling about the weather this year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And I just like to comment that there's been some relative discoveries that show the weather is kind of changing at the same time that we're changing our power system.
unidentified		And I do research on that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean changing our power system?
unidentified		Well, when we have major drops that are not normal for the season, like for instance in springtime, you know, there's usually a drop because people get to go outside finally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		And the air conditioning load goes way down.
		Correct.
		And some years are greater than others of those drops.
		And it's coincidental and anecdotal right now, but the research is moving forward that shows that the tornadic activity in storms increases the greater the magnetic fields are dropping in the storms.
		And the same thing is with the power system.
		So if we have a record amount of electric droppage, we seem to get a record number of tornadoes.
		And it's not that they make the tornadoes all themselves because the Earth's geomagnetics seem to be responsible for it most.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I appreciate your point of view, but I don't agree with you.
		I think that you are right in the larger framework.
		In other words, the use of electricity, the use of modern machines, including air conditioning, and all of the power we use, the fossil fuels burning, have created a condition that is in our weather.
		That I agree with.
		The more narrow perspective that you have with regard to immediate power usage levels, I disagree with.
		It is a larger picture with regard to the use of fossil fuels that I think is producing the change, but that's just me.
		The Beijing Free Play Radio with the changing weather, El Niño is on the way.
		And by the way, since we did the program, a lot of content, more, in fact, I'll talk to you about more of it.
		We did a show with a climatologist, as you know.
		But the indications are this will be the biggest El Niño ever recorded.
		There's going to be a lot of rain in many places, storms, big, bad storms.
		And when that occurs, the power goes out.
		When it does, you're going to want the Bajin FreePlay Radio.
		It has a mechanism inside that means it does not have to use commercial power.
		The Bayless Clockwork Generator.
		A crank on the side.
		That's all you see.
		You turn the crank for 30 seconds, and this radio plays for 30 minutes at full room volume on AM, FM, and shortwave.
		So it does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that with bad weather on the way, this is a good item to have in the house.
		The Bajin Free Play Rail.
		Call Bob Crane in the morning and get one on the way before the storms.
		The number is 1-800-522-863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863, the Sea Crane Company.
unidentified		Sea Crane Company Aha, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been giving you a sneak preview of this superb new Cusco album for several weeks now.
		Finally, it's here.
		Apuramac 3.
		Nature, Spirit, and Pride.
		You're listening to a cut called Ghost Dance.
		For a limited time, the folks at Higher Octave have a special new release offer for Heartbell listeners.
		You can order Cusco's brand new Apuramax 3 album on CD for just $15.98 or just $9.98 for a cassette.
		Call 1-800-562-8283.
		And if you're one of the first 25 callers to place an order tonight, your copy will be autographed by Cusco's own Michael Holm.
		Those are going to go in about 10 seconds flat.
		Autographed copies.
		1-800-562-8283.
		You can also have a limited edition boxed set that contains all three Cusco CDs in the Apuramax series, along with an autographed poster for just $39.95.
		This beautiful box set is not, of course, available in stores.
		What a great gift idea for you Cusco lovers.
		Don't miss out on these special offers.
		Once again, here it is, Cusco's new Apuramac 3 for just $15.98 CD or $9.98 for a cassette or the limited edition Apuramac Collection 3C 3 CD box set for just $39.95.
		Here's the number again.
		1-800-562-8283 or 1-800-5 Octave.
		And by the way, mention Art Bell.
		That would be me.
		Absolutely an unbelievable piece of music.
		And finally, it's here, and we've got it.
		East of the Rockies, good morning.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Hey, good morning, or good afternoon, whatever it is.
unidentified		I'm in New York State.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it cannot possibly be afternoon in New York State.
unidentified		No, whatever.
		I am also a builder of a Heathkit AR-3.
		And then I went on to work for Lafayette Radio as a technician.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We were an exclusive club AR-3 builder.
unidentified		And then I went to work for Heathkit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you did?
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, one of their stores.
unidentified		I was looking at radio.
unidentified		You remember them, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must remember the story I told about my AR-3, huh?
unidentified		Remember, you said you built one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I built one, and you know, I was very young.
		It was the first thing that I ever built.
		And bear with me for a second.
		Yes.
		And when I built mine, I somehow ignored the fact that you had to cut lead lengths.
		Oh, yes.
		So I didn't cut any of the lead lengths.
		And all of my resistors and all of my capacitors stuck out actually past the point where the chassis was.
		So when I put the receiver, when I got all done and I put the receiver down on the table, put the back on it, they all crunched down together.
		And when I turned it on, I had the most wonderful explosion you've ever heard.
unidentified		Well, I still remember my mistake was a terminal strip that had a ground log on it.
		I can still remember that.
		But I went on to work for Heath, so I had a lot of what you did, and what I used to do was take a pair of diagonals, you know, and just long-nosed pliers rather, and just, you know, round up the wires, just solder them.
		Instead of cutting the leaves and doing all that.
		But, you know, what I want to know is, have you heard of that frog that they levitated in England?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I saw it, yes.
		They levitated a frog.
		They levitated organic matter like vegetables, that kind of thing.
		Sure.
unidentified		How is that possible?
unidentified		This is one thing I do not understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I still don't either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They have given explanations, but none that I understand.
unidentified		Because I don't think, I mean, I can't see a magnet or something.
unidentified		They said a magnetic field, I believe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
unidentified		But a frog is not a magnetic material.
		I think they also did an acorn or something.
		But that's not a magnetic material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have the same problem with it that you do.
unidentified		Is that anti-gravity?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure it is.
unidentified		I mean, whatever that is, I think that's the most phenomenal I have heard.
unidentified		I mean, that's got to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe I'm jumping.
		I'm not sure that it is anti-gravity.
		It's anti-gravity in the same sense that the Levitron is able to suspend in mid-air.
unidentified		Right, but it's not a magnetic material.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they used magnetic fields that were incredibly strong, taking advantage, I believe, of some sort of infinitesimal magnetic amount in organic matter.
		Iron in the blood.
		Whatever, something like that.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Yeah, but I think that does anybody out there know anything?
		I'd like to know that if they have heard anything more about it or can explain it to any extent, because that may be what makes, if there is a UFO, that may be what makes them do what they do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, safe bet.
		Yeah, absolutely, sir.
		I do agree with you.
		Safe bet.
		Some variation of that.
		I've heard a UFO or the drive system of a UFO described as a capacitor.
		And that one makes to me.
		All right.
		It is all right.
		Boy, one hour.
		It's gone.
		Up to the website if you want to see what we were doing in Alaska.
		www.artbell.com.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		Let your kids queen.
		I'm missing Only fools ever achieve Call heartbell.
		Toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is that.
		I'm Art Bell.
		Good morning.
		Here's a very cogent facts from Scott in Butte Creek Farm, Oregon.
		Listening, of course, to the mighty KEX, Portland.
		Hi, Art.
		I, like everyone else, was Saddened by Princess Diana's death.
		She had a beauty poise and charisma rarely seen.
		The blame for her death has been given to her intoxicated chauffeur and the slimy photographers chasing her car.
		And, indeed, they must take the immediate blame.
		But there are two other responsible parties not yet mentioned.
		The first are the millions of people who buy those idiotic tabloids, void of taste, morals, ethics, and usually the truth.
		These papers will do anything to make a buck.
		And yet people around the world will spend millions of dollars and countless hours of their short lives reading this trash.
		If these people would get off their lazy butts and get a life, they could be on the world making a difference like Diana.
		The second responsible party must be Diana herself.
		She used her charisma, beauty, and royal status to champion selected causes.
		Her popularity made her an awesome force, but it also made her a favorite target of the tabloids and their henchmen.
		In the end, she wanted her cake and eat it too.
		She wanted to be in the limelight when it suited her needs, but she also wanted and needed a more private life.
		It wasn't too much to ask, but it seemed it was too much for the world to give her.
		May she rest in peace, Scott, Creek Farm, Oregon.
		And I, for the most part, agree with that.
		It is a First Amendment country we live in, and pretty close to it in Britain, Great Britain as well.
		Not quite the magnificent freedom that we enjoy with our First Amendment, but pretty close.
		And so there is that aspect, and I think the tabloids, you know, I don't call for them to be out of business.
		They're always going to be in business.
		The First Amendment protects them.
		And public people are public people.
		That's all there is to it.
		I have been subject to much of the same sort of attention.
		And so I understand it, and I understand that it's a two-way street.
		In other words, you can use it, and it uses you.
		I think that from my personal observation to this point, I blame the driver.
		He didn't have to be going that fast.
		He simply didn't have to be going that fast.
		He certainly didn't have to be drunk, and he didn't have to be going that fast.
		I suppose they wanted to get away from the paparazzi, and they're constantly in that battle trying to get away from them.
		But obviously, that was reckless, even criminal, with regard to his intoxication levels.
		And I guess the main observation I made was the way the media jumped in with the way they were going to tell the story.
		Be damned the facts.
		And even after the facts came along with regard to the alcohol levels in the driver's body and that sort of thing, it's like it's a story.
		Their story was going to be the paparazzi.
		They were going to really lay into them.
		Boy, and the tabloids, what a great opportunity to lay into them.
		And even after the news broke for many, many hours, or even a day, it's like the media didn't want to turn their attention away from the paparazzi because that's the way they wanted to tell the story.
		And here was news spoiling that.
		Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Or almost.
		Okay.
		I understand it's wet your way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Raining, it is, yes.
unidentified		I'm just watching local news here.
		I'm in Pasadena.
		My name's Gina.
		And I'm watching the desert storms out here in San Bernardino County.
		Boy, they got some bad floods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		I have called to give you an ultimatum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Or as they said on Amos Vandee, an ultimato.
		You are not permitted to go on vacation anymore, sir.
		Every time you go on vacation, something earth-shattering happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always.
unidentified		In the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's going to be a big month.
unidentified		And you're not here to make comment immediately.
unidentified		You know, it seems like the last two or three times when you went on your cruise last year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It always occurs.
unidentified		I forget what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mars.
		Mars happens.
		They found the Mars rock.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't forget these things.
		It always occurs.
		It's a law of nature.
unidentified		Well, you just have this thing that the big cosmic person who's keeping the ledger says, aha, Art Bell's gone.
		It's time to cause some major problems.
		I know.
		This whole thing with Princess Diana, though, is really sad.
		A guy called a guy called a local show here at the show.
		Here on KBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I mean, he was just railing Diana up one side, down the other.
		Why is she ever done?
		She's so shallow.
		She's just, you know, that, that, that.
		On and on about how shallow she was and what a, you know, what you go, why does everybody care about this useless person and all this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't there something about not speaking ill of the dead?
unidentified		Well, tell me about it, man.
unidentified		The guy better be careful, you know?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tell him to visit www.getalife.com.
unidentified		That's a good one.
		But I mean, you know, oh, now, of course, you can imagine the people that called subsequently.
		And I was, you know, I was listening to this guy, and I said, man, I said, Gloria, get him off before I pick up this phone.
		Because, you know, it's he, you know, somebody actually did challenge him.
		And, you know, people like this are wonderful because this guy called up to challenge him, and he actually did call him back.
		I mean, she had him debate.
		And the guy asked him, what have you done?
		You know, you're so good at saying how shallow she is.
		What have you done for your fellow man?
		And, of course, the guy's got no answer.
		It's irrelevant.
		This isn't about me.
		Then how can you come down and say, you know, how somebody else is if you can't, you know, stand up to the plate yourself?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
		I have some comments.
		That, of course, is true.
		My comment about Di is that she had a very tragic life.
		I mean, here is a woman basically who entered into what was basically an arranged marriage that was loveless.
		She was hounded by photographers.
		Yes, she used them as well.
		She tried to do good things.
		She seemed to be a gracious person.
		And I would not speak ill of her because I don't know anything to say ill of her.
		So I can't imagine why anybody would spend a lot of time raging against her on the radio.
unidentified		Why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To what end?
		That's just baloney.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Hank calling from Silverdale, Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Hanks.
unidentified		I want to talk to you about your KENI trip.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		You and I worked there together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We did.
unidentified		In the 70s, I was the general manager.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This would be Hank Mann.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Hank.
unidentified		Well, you sure brought up some names, evoked some names with Gene Shadlock and Steve London and Charlie Gray.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I drove around Anchorage with Steve and Gene.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they're doing fine.
		And Charlie Gray is doing even better.
		I mean, this guy's 76 years old now, and he's still climbing the towers.
unidentified		I can't believe it.
unidentified		I remember he used to climb those towers and work out there in that 60-below zero weather for the fur rendezvous and the midnight Sun 600s race up to Fairbanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I remember sitting out at the checkpoint shivering.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Describing the dog sled teams coming by.
		Charlie Gray evokes.
		You'll see a current photograph of him on the website if you can get up there, Hank.
unidentified		I'm not computer literate yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, then get someone who is and get the fishery.
		You'll see Charlie.
		It looks like he hasn't aged.
		I think the cold preserves him.
		Oh, preserves him.
		Something like that.
		Anyway, I remember Charlie from KENI.
		Charlie was a very unusual engineer.
		You'd be sitting there doing a show, and if Charlie thought something had to be replaced, I mean, those were the days we used turntables.
		Charlie would come in, and he would take, remove the turntable, and you'd say, Charlie, I'm on the air.
		And he'd say, well, then talk.
unidentified		Oh, that's Charlie.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
unidentified		It really is Charlie.
unidentified		Or he would just come in and be banging around and making noise while you're doing a newscast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		You're not important.
		This engineering work has to go forward.
unidentified		Well, is the studio still at the Forest Park Drive location where the last day I saw you you drove off in your car and your long hair?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, sir.
		No, sir.
		That is now a monument.
		The building is a monument.
		It's a private residence, but it has been declared a monument.
		And I went by and took a photograph of it.
		I've got it.
		I didn't put it up on the website, but I've got a photograph of the building.
		They've got a brand new building.
		Everything is now computers.
		You know, the big change.
unidentified		Wow.
unidentified		One of the things I wanted to mention to you, too, is I read in your book is you don't remember how you got to Vietnam to bring the orphans out?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I don't remember how I got there?
unidentified		Yeah.
		I remember you flew on Alaska Airlines.
		We arranged that through their Anchorage and their Seattle office, but it was in conjunction with the Anchorage JCs at the Chamber of Commerce.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, did you know, Hank, that a couple of those children who were just types when we brought them out later came back and tried to find out how they got here.
		And they went up and made a trek to Anchorage and went to the newspaper and went through the archives, got my name, had KENI get hold of me, and I got to talk to some of these used-to-be youngsters who are now became straight A college students and have graduated and have families.
		And it was rather emotional.
		And the Anchorage paper about four or five years ago ran a front-page story about that reunion.
unidentified		Well, you did a wonderful thing there, Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
unidentified		You've always been a humanitarian.
		One of the things I admired about you is the way you dealt with people.
		And like somebody asked you the other night on your show, they want to know, how do you learn all the things you learn?
		And how do you know all the things you know?
		You continue to amaze me after 20-some years of knowing you.
		And I listen to you every single day.
		And I just, a day is not complete without the Art Bell Show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Hank.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good luck to you, my friend.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		That was the manager at that time of KENI in Anchorage.
		Hank man.
		I had finally decided, and I'll never forget this, Hank will remember.
		I had finally decided I was going to return to the lower 48.
		This was after about three years in Anchorage.
		And I did it just as the ratings came in, and I was doing the morning show.
		And the ratings were just absolutely through the roof.
		And I had my car packed up, and I was all set to go.
		And it was a, you know, we had a party.
		It was a nice goodbye and everything.
		But Hank sat there with the ratings in his hand behind his manager's desk.
		And I forget what they were, but they were astronomical for my program.
		And Hank was saying, Art, what would it take to keep you here?
		And I said, more money than Midnight Sun Broadcasting, which at that time is what it was, has, or something to that effect.
		In other words, I was ready to go.
		I was packed, and there was nothing that was going to keep me there.
		But I had wonderful, wonderful years, and it was certainly wonderful seeing Alaska again.
		And Hank and everybody else, I can tell you, though Anchorage has grown, it's still every bit Alaska.
		In other words, a kind of place that words will not properly describe.
		Wonderful.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello, this is Jack in Charleston, South Carolina.
		Well, hello, Jack.
		Hi.
		There's two things about Princess Diana's death that I've heard only one time each on the media.
		The first was like within hours of the accident, her death, some witness to the accident said that they heard tires screeching for five, seven seconds, which got me wondering, you know, why would somebody on a straightaway be suddenly hitting the brakes?
		And I was told.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the driver did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They had 90-foot skid marks, I believe, but they said that would have only slowed the car by about 20% of the total speed, which they're now talking about 110, 121 miles an hour, somewhere in there.
unidentified		But why would you hit the brakes if you're on a straightaway, unless there's somebody in front of you you were thinking you might possibly hit?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
unidentified		And then another thing I heard one time, the lawyer for Fayed, whatever, the boyfriend.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me, before you go on, there is one possibility, and that is that at that speed, he lost control of the car.
		Once you lose control of the car, you slam the brakes because you know you're going in the wrong way, so wrong direction somehow or another.
		So particularly if you're skunked, which this guy was, you probably try to slam on the brakes.
unidentified		And to skid that long and yet to hit it, that force had to be going really fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
unidentified		One other thing I heard, like I said, the lawyer for the family of the boyfriend, they're checking out that someone said that there was a motorcycle in front weaving in front of the car.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That could be a problem.
		In other words, that's one way in which I can see the paparazzi could have been a causative agent in this accident.
		But so far, the police, with what we're hearing, are not charging anybody.
		And if there had been somebody in front of the vehicle, say, flashing a flashbulb into somebody's face.
unidentified		Or trying to slow the car down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then I would imagine there would be somebody detained as, at the very least, with a manslaughter charge.
unidentified		I sure hope that her bodyguard makes it through, okay, because he can probably answer a lot of questions about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, hopefully so.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		We're still in the dark about a very great deal of it, but I lean toward thinking that we're dealing here with a drunk driver.
		And save for the possibility of somebody having been in front of that vehicle, somewhat unlikely at those speeds, I'm thinking it's a drunk driver that's the cause of this accident.
		That would be my bet right now.
		And my bet before I heard any of this, and the media was going after the paparazzi as the obvious cause, was that we were not getting the whole story, and we still don't have it.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		I just had a little comment about UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I kind of, you know, I kind of think that UFOs and poltergeist are pretty much the same phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Devils, huh?
unidentified		Well, no, not necessarily devils, but just, uh...
unidentified		Well, I wouldn't even claim that it would be a disembodied person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A soul, a polgeist, anything, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, all right, what is a poltergeist?
unidentified		That's a good question.
		It's just some sort of something supernatural.
		I mean, you know, stones falling from the sky and materializing in rooms and things being thrown around or whatnot.
		But I don't know.
		That's a real good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, it's an important question.
		Thank you.
		In other words, what is when you're saying it's a pretty broad sweeping thing to say UFOs are poltergists.
		They're the same thing.
		And both are supernatural.
		I think we're far from any such simple conclusion.
		They may indeed be very separate things.
		One may be primarily our own craft.
		Secondarily, a possibility of craft from elsewhere.
		Holdergeists may be souls that have not yet been released.
		That would be my inclination.
		I would be disinclined to lump them all together and say it's all the same thing.
		But, you know, we're dealing with opinions here.
		And there are as many of those as there are noses and other parts.
		All right, I want to remind everybody, coming up at midnight tonight, or in about a little better than a half hour, Richard C. Hoagland, along with geologist Ron Nix and possibly David Oates as well, is going to be a very, very interesting program, and you're going to learn things about Mars that are going to absolutely amaze you.
		They've done all the research, and they'll be talking about it tonight at midnight.
		be here.
unidentified		When I was young, I think that life was so wonderful, political, a whip with beautiful, magical, and all the birds in the trees, they'd be singing so happily, oh joyfully, oh they believe.
		Watching me.
		When they sent me away, tell me how to be, let me go.
		So I've become always under the moon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		Take a long way home.
		It's a long way home.
		Let us see what you wanna be.
		Let's play through the gallery.
		Take a long way home.
		It's lonely.
		When you're up one day, it's so unbelievable.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
		Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, isn't that nice?
		Good morning, everybody.
		It's great to be back from Alaska.
		And we've got open lines right now.
		At midnight, we're going to learn a lot of things we did not know about Mars from Richard C. Hogan, Ron Nicks, and possibly David John Oates as well.
		That's coming up in about a half hour.
		Right now, open lines.
		Or in a moment.
		Might as well get all of this out of the way.
		Back 1-800-659-2669.
		Web TV.
		I've got it, and I love it.
		From Darrell in Los Angeles, it really is art worthwhile for listeners to go to your website and take a look at those Alaskan photos.
		Some very nice shots of you and Ramona, coupled with outstanding crystal-clear photos of beautiful mountains, glaciers, and sparkling water.
		Glaciers are particularly interesting.
		Glaciated ice, I don't fully understand the physics of it.
		You'll see one photograph with very distinctly blue ice.
		Most of it is blue.
		And glaciers, I tell you, they're really weird.
		Really, really weird.
		They grow.
		There are some still advancing now.
		Some are very much in retreat.
		But they're a different kind of animal.
		The ice, of course, is compressed so much that it becomes, or it becomes into a glaciated condition, and it rakes mountains.
		It rakes anything it goes over.
		It carries with it rocks, boulders, and anything else that gets in its way.
		And it is a force of nature that we don't have the slightest idea how to deal with, stop, destroy, or encourage.
		You've got to take a look at some of those photographs, and I think you too will be amazed.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Air Bells.
		This is Tim from Minneapolis, Minnesota.
		I'm listening to you on KSTP.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
unidentified		Welcome back from Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Good to hear your voice.
		I was wondering if you got any fishing in while you were up there.
		No.
		No fishing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No fishing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I did get to watch the salmon run, which was neat, but I don't feel a need to pull them out of the water.
unidentified		I thought I'd ask.
unidentified		20 years ago last month, I was up there on a Navy visit at Kodiak Island.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And I got to see some amazing sights.
		I also got a fishing license and made our own crab nets, and we caught fresh king crab orders beside the Navy ship right in the harbor.
		It was such a blast.
		I can't even.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were throwing dynamite in the water?
unidentified		No, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You said it was a blast.
unidentified		We bait nets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Terrible way to fish.
unidentified		It was a blast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The fish.
unidentified		We made nets out of Navy shot line that we used to shoot at other ships.
		And we put a little bait in the middle and sink them down in the bottom of the harbor and wait a few minutes and fresh king crab up on the way.
		But we had to share it with the whole crew, but that's okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Alaska is a grand land that you really have to see.
unidentified		I also saw an amazing sight up there, almost 80 killer whales moving in formation with the ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, we saw whales, too.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, sure, no doubt about it.
		Seal, whales, seals.
		We saw a caribou.
		We saw all kinds of wildlife.
unidentified		All right, well, it's good to hear your voice again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we saw all kinds of wildlife.
unidentified		It's really neat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really neat.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Top of the morning.
unidentified		Top of the morning to you too, Mr. Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's going on?
unidentified		Not much.
unidentified		I am a first-time caller.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		But I've got some kind of a block on my loan that won't let me call your first time caller line.
		Huh.
		I've been listening to your show for about a month now, and I love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		I enjoy your show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of different.
unidentified		Yeah, kind of a good change from everything else on the radio these days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's the way I feel about it.
		A lot of people take me to test because I don't do what everybody else does.
		But, you know, the hell with them.
unidentified		You do things a lot better than other people do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You do it differently, anyway.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I went to see Conspiracy Theory, and I like that show, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Conspiracy.
		Oh, the one with Mel Gibson.
		Mel Gibson, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, that writer who was the cabbie, the New York Cabbie, who was telling about conspiracies in the government and such.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have not yet seen it.
unidentified		You haven't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
unidentified		You have not seen it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it worth seeing?
unidentified		It is worth seeing.
unidentified		I think it is worth seeing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I definitely think it's worth seeing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess the plot is, without giving anything away, that he eventually stumbles into one that's real.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are, after all, really conspiracies.
unidentified		Right, and this can happen in real life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even to a talk show host.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		And some friends and I got together, and we have a few conspiracies of our own.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your favorite?
unidentified		My favorite, my most favorite, to date would have to be that we shouldn't even have computers.
		What?
		We shouldn't have computers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of heresy is that?
unidentified		It was an accident.
unidentified		I'd say sometime in the 40s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alien technology.
unidentified		Oh, well, actually, the government.
		The government was hiding it, and somehow it leaked out.
		And here we have computers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, only the government would have had computers, except the secret leaked out, so now we have them.
unidentified		Now we have them.
unidentified		And another little add-on to that is something I kind of think is a little ridiculous, but I have no idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you're talking about conspiracy theories, you can be as ridiculous as you want.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it?
unidentified		It's that the tabloid newspapers and such, you know, they have higher technology than the government does right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are stories about the aliens and I don't personally, I don't think their moral and ethical behavior is all that different.
unidentified		Uh-uh.
unidentified		And I want to say something on the death of Princess Di.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Also, she didn't die in a car crash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She died in the hospital.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She, well, as a result of a car crash.
unidentified		Right, but she didn't die that way.
unidentified		You know why?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
unidentified		The media killed her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The media killed her?
unidentified		The media killed her.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did they do that?
unidentified		Well, we have, we, the media has a thirst for stories, no matter how, no matter what way they get it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what?
		I think that's BS.
		The media didn't kill her.
		I'm sorry.
		I don't go along with him.
		That guy did not have to be driving 121 miles an hour or whatever it was.
		He didn't have to do that.
unidentified		No, he didn't.
		Okay.
		But then you also have to that these people on motorcycles were taking pictures, were kind of taking advantage of the situation, so it seems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they follow her around always.
unidentified		Yeah, they always follow her around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, you know, if you're drunk times three, legal limit, and you're doing 121 miles an hour, it's a good bet that something bad is going to happen.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate your call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Princess Di is now frozen in time.
		Like Elvis Presley.
		Like a lot of others who have died young.
		Her memory now will be frozen forever as it is.
		Good or bad, I don't know.
		Tragic life.
		She just wanted a little bit of happiness and was possibly on the verge of attaining that.
		And she just, you know, she died too young.
		Before she could resolve what she was supposed to resolve in this life.
		And so then maybe she'll have another.
		I doubt she's done.
		Wildhard Line, you're on air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is Rick in San Francisco.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Just wanted to call with a real-world confirmation of El Nino's effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm telling you, it's serious.
unidentified		I'm a surfer here in Northern California.
		I've surfed all over Florida, Hawaii, Fiji, Paraguay.
		But here in the Bay Area, even in September, which is our warmest month, temperatures in the ocean rarely get above like the mid-40s, maybe low 50s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		So anyone who wants to stay in the water more than 20 minutes, all the surfers, we wear wetsuits, dry suits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, you're hypothermic.
unidentified		You're in trouble.
unidentified		This past month, no joke, my buddies and I have been surfing in 70-degree water, bare-chested, just trunks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		In 15 years of surfing out here, never seen anything like it.
unidentified		It's wild.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We're in for a doozy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, we are.
		I agree with you, my friend.
		Thank you very much.
		I absolutely agree with that, man.
		We're in for a doozy.
		It's going to be a very wet affair here where I am, I think, across Southern California in a line, as our climatologist friend said the other day, all the way across the U.S. to Georgia in that latitude.
		But that's only a guess.
		It could literally come like a freight train across just about any latitude.
		That's just their best guess right now.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, all right.
unidentified		This is Marcus, your physical back and pagan and poor button.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Welcome back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Good to have you back on the air.
		I have my own believe in the conspiracy thing about Princess Bai's death.
		I think people are looking at the wrong target.
		Number one, look to see who benefits by anybody's death.
		And number two, look to see who it was who actually got whacked.
		Virtually everybody in the car except one of the bodyguards got killed, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		Now, to trace this back, first of all, who was it that purchased by actually would have been an embarrassment or a threat to?
		Certainly not the British family.
		The divorce had already happened, so that threat was passed.
		The terms of the child custody of the crown princes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think most of the embarrassment for the royal family is long gone.
unidentified		Right.
		So that removes them pretty much as the primary suspect of any kind of wrongdoing.
		But what was the main cause to live that Princess Daya was getting on in the last few weeks?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Landmines.
unidentified		Landmines.
unidentified		Who would stand the most to lose by an international ban on landmines, arms merchants and manufacturers?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you know who the biggest one is?
unidentified		I know one.
unidentified		I don't know if you want to give the name over the early.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I meant nations.
unidentified		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We are.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		And I also know one of the biggest middlemen form is also connected to a certain OPEC country, which will remain nameless, with a very conservative monarchy that has a very, very low threshold of embarrassment, I know, from personal experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, a lot of people have been decrying landmines for a long time.
		That doesn't stop them from being built and deployed.
		They're still used widely.
		They're a cheap way to kill and maim, and they'll continue to be used.
		So I tend not to buy into a conspiracy theory.
		I see what you're saying, and I'm willing to take it under consideration, but I don't buy into it.
		I'm one to not leap to conspiracy theories on top of the obvious.
		The obvious seems more likely in this case.
		A drunk driver, high speeds, and a crash and death.
		And so I tend not to think of some conspiracy, but now, of course, that will occur, and there will be people thinking that she was murdered.
		Unless you want to look at the behavior of the people involved As murder, and you can do that.
		I don't think of it in any larger sense as a conspiracy to kill her.
		First time caller line, you're on here.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I was calling because, well, I've driven for, well, a celebrity or two, and you're talking about this poor guy who supposedly was in excess of a couple of beers and a glass of wine, and you say he's skunked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three times the legal limit.
unidentified		Well, in France, but I'm sure a lot of us had a couple of beers and a glass of wine, hadn't been skunked, and been told by the guy in the back seat to drive a little faster.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Well, I just don't think it's fair to put it all on his head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think he should not have been driving that speed.
		I don't know how it happened.
		You might be right.
		Somebody in the back seat said the paparazzi are back there, step on it.
		Could have easily occurred that way.
		But it shouldn't have.
		He shouldn't have been drunk.
		He shouldn't have been driving that fast.
		That was way out of line.
		And to me, it was just a tragic accident.
unidentified		Well, I know, I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't necessarily blame the paparazzi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they were disgusting, of course, but right now, I don't see them as a cause of agent in the accident.
unidentified		Well, I really don't want to hammer the old boy who was driving.
		I mean, he said, too.
		And I know that he was probably trying to do his job and trying to get away.
		And we really don't know that either.
		I just, I have known that I've been in the front seat and somebody told me, step on it, go a little faster.
		I don't want to get a ticket.
		And I want to do my job.
		And I want to get hired for the next job.
		And I just, you know, I heard you say that and I thought, wow, that's really not fair to this guy either.
		I mean, he died too.
		So, I don't know.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think that you can say that three times the legal limit.
		You know, they did a breakdown on CNN.
		You're, what, at two times the legal limit, I think 48 times more likely to die at three times.
		I forget what the chances are, but you are very impaired at his alcohol level, very impaired.
		And from there, you go into the stupor level.
		So there's no defending that.
unidentified		Well, that's true.
unidentified		But then again, they should have known, the people in the backs, they should have known not to get in the car with somebody who was skunked, as you put it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe they didn't notice.
unidentified		Oh, come on.
		You've got to notice, especially if you're running away, you want to hide.
		You're not going to be in front.
		You're not going to put somebody who's loaded.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're making assumptions.
		There are people who can be legally drunk.
		I mean, they were in at the party.
		I assume the driver was outside waiting or called from some point, and they might not have known that he was drunk.
unidentified		Well, supposedly they sent their regular driver on ahead to lead these people on, and therefore they must have had some kind of idea on, you know, they must have had some kind of, well, they must have been aware of the game that these things could have gone awry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're kind of just speculating.
unidentified		Well, I know.
		I know.
		I just don't want to dump it all on this poor devil.
		We don't even know his name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the press certainly was trying to dump it on the paparazzi.
unidentified		Well, yeah, but, I mean, they've got it coming.
		Let's face it.
		They've been chasing for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But not as until they know a direct cause of this accident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right now, it looks more like alcohol than paparazzi to me.
unidentified		Well, it could go either way.
unidentified		But really, having driven people who are in a hurry, want to get home, want to get away, let's get the hell out of here kind of thing, I feel that the guy was just trying to do his job.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but 121 miles an hour is not in the realm of step on it.
unidentified		I don't know.
		It depends.
		If you've got a million dollars, 120 miles an hour might be step on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, thank you.
		Well, then, if you are instructing a driver to go that fast, then you are responsible.
		In other words, if you, through financial pressure or, you know, the guy's job, are making him go that fast, whoever you are, then you are the one who made the decision.
		And you are the one who took the chance.
		And if the driver is drunk, then you're doubly crazy.
		Anyway, this is one of those things where I think we really need to sit back and wait until we have more answers, until perhaps the eyewitness recovers, which they believe he will, and he may be able to tell us more.
		I just think it's too early.
		GMX is a magnetic water conditioner.
		Do they work?
		Hell yes, they work.
unidentified		Hell yes, they work.
		Hell yes, they work.
		Call Art Bell.
		Toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Rocko Lynn, Ron Nix, Richard C. Hoagland, and maybe David Oates, coming up.
unidentified		It makes me a little tired, it might still get by.
		Every time I think about it, I won't cry.
		There's bones in the field, they're a cute little.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But basically, I'm back.
		Been in Alaska, done a lot of things, had a lot of fun, have a lot of people to thank.
		And I'm going to take a second to do that once again before we get started here.
		I'm telling you, we had the times of our lives.
		And I want to thank a lot of people.
		I want to thank the folks at KINY in Juneau who hosted me while I was there.
		Gene Burns, the host and our guide.
		You will see a photograph Gene took of my wife and I in front of the Meninhall Glacier.
		Took us to see the salmon running.
		That was something.
		I'd like to say hi to Brad Gregory, board op up there.
		And a very special hello to Charlie Gray, somebody I've known for a quarter century.
		At 76 years old, Charlie is still climbing towers out there in Juneau.
		You'll see a picture of Charlie there with me in front of KINY in Juneau.
		It's on the website.
		And of course, at K-E-N-I in Anchorage, my old alma mater, it was great.
		I did an hour show there and had a lot of fun.
		Our host and guide at Anchorage was Wayne Maloney, who was program director along with Lori Hamblin, promotions director who set all that up.
		Then we went and got a very unusual opportunity.
		You'll see pictures on the webpage to play with, I say play with, a Blackhawk helicopter.
		Mmm, fun.
		Our hosts there, the Alaska Air National Guard, 210th Rescue Squadron.
		That was arranged by Major Neil Brunton, who was ill, unfortunately, when I got there.
		Major Lagasse, Norm Lagasse, Scott Hamilton, Tom Boland, and Tad.
		I didn't get Tad's last name.
		And you'll see the photographs with the Blackhawk helicopter on the website right now.
		God, that was fun.
		You have no idea what these machines can do.
		They have the ability to look down and look at what kind of insulation is in your house.
		They have systems that we got to play with that will astound you.
		They can do things from a Blackhawk helicopter.
		They can see a match, somebody flicking a big lighter at 10, 15 miles away.
		We got to play with night vision goggles, third generation, that kind of thing.
		Oh, it was cool.
		We had so much fun.
		And we would have gone up except for the fact that there was violent turbulence everywhere.
		Anchorage was pretty well socked in, and the turbulence above the mountains and around Anchorage was unbelievable.
		So I said, no, you guys go out and take chances when you have to rescue people, but you don't take up a talk show host, you know, for a joyride in dangerous conditions.
		So we didn't do that.
		I want to also say thank you to Steve London and Gene Shedlock, friends of mine from a quarter century ago who are still there.
		And we took a big walk down memory lane.
		As a matter of fact, Gene came up with a picture of me 25 years ago at KENI.
		You'll see that also on the website.
		Art Bell with long hair and, as usual, a telephone planted in his ear.
		I'll be all the way over on the right.
		So all of that and some very good photographs on the website.
		Go take a look, of course, at www.artbell.com.
		Now, coming up in a moment, Richard C. Hoagland and Ron Nix, who is a geologist, and we've got a few surprises for you already on the website, and we'll be telling you all about those as we investigate what they believe to be on Mars.
		Ron Nix called, well, I'll give you a sample in a moment of Mr. Nix's excitement over the matter.
		Actually, before we bring Richard on, do that.
		I want to sort of recap a call he made to me.
		10.50.
		All right.
		Let us frustrate Richard by not bringing him on yet.
		Let me first bring on Ron Nix, who is a geologist.
		Ron?
		Hello.
		Hi, Ron.
		Before we bring on Richard, I really want the audience to understand why what is about to happen tonight is going to happen.
		And it's happening because of a call you made to me before I left for Alaska.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were as excited as I have ever heard you be.
		You're a geologist, right?
		What is your background, Ron?
unidentified		Oh, 35 years of geology, engineering geology type projects.
		My degree is in geology.
		I've been a geologist for major corporations, doing siting projects of critical facilities, nuclear power plants, bridges, dams, highways, power lines, high-rise buildings, that sort of thing, all over the country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're not lightweight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've been doing this a long time, and you were blowing your top when you called me.
unidentified		Well, yes, there are some things difficult to explain geologically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On Mars.
unidentified		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how long has it been since you've been that excited over what you've seen?
		I mean, the essence of what you told me, before we get into specifics, Richard's probably sitting there jumping up and down right now, which is good for him.
		You said, look, these are not pixelated, hard-to-see things.
		These artifacts on Mars, and I'm not going to give away what they are, are clear and unambiguous.
		Is that about right?
unidentified		That's about right.
		You do have to, when you first look, and it depends on what image you're looking at.
		If you're looking at early images, yes, they're clear.
		If you're looking at later images, they lose their clarity for whatever reason.
		And some of the things that were impressive to me about some of these items was that they tend to be oriented and shaped in such fashion that it wouldn't be easy, easily done to make them look that way or not look that way necessarily by virtue of image processing.
		These things go at different angles or at all different orientations.
		Okay, I understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to ask you a question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I interviewed Professor Michio Kaku.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And he, referring to the Sedoni region of Mars in the face, said that the human mind tends to Want to make sense or order out of apparent chaos.
		And so that when you look at things on Mars that have been imaged by Pathfinder, you will see things that appear to be things you recognize because your brain automatically tries to make sense out of chaos.
		Now, are you sure that we're not facing a case of that here?
unidentified		That's always a possibility.
		But part of what we want to do tonight, I need other people.
		We need other people to look at these things, other experts to look at these things, to try to get to the point that it isn't just one or two people that see this.
		Now, you're still faced with the fact that it's human beings looking at it.
		And, you know, his statement is sort of a blanket statement that says, well, we tend to try to make order out of chaos, and I suppose this is true.
		But when you have multiple people looking at something without having told them what to look at, and they come up with the same reordering that you do, well, that's some indication, at least I would think, that perhaps it may not be as chaotic as you think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I guess we've held him on hold long enough.
		Let's bring Richard on.
		Richard, welcome to the program.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hey, Ron's doing a great job.
unidentified		I can go to bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just kind of wanted to give the audience an idea of the level of excitement that Ron had when he called me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, my objective for 15 years has been to make myself obsolete.
		I would be perfectly happy to turn the show over to Ron and to David.
		And Jim DeLososo, it looks like, is going to join our party in Pasadena.
		He called me a few minutes ago, Art, and he has been looking at the technical understructure of the imaging characteristics of what is on NASA's website and has many grave questions.
		One of the things, Ron, which obviously this happened in the last half hour, so you were not able to be aware of it, Ron and I have been looking at something called the grayscale.
		With every digital image, there is a, supposedly, presumably, a range of values of gray levels in any particular image.
		And for most photo processing programs that people who have computers out there would be familiar with, there are about 256 shades of gray that a particular digital image plays.
		One of the bizarre things that Ron and I have been noting is that on most of the imagery on the website that NASA's put up, they have thrown away half those gray levels, which is essentially throwing away half the information.
		I did not talk to Jim about this.
		And one of the things that Jim said to me that struck him as peculiar, given the equipment that they have that he knows, because he built some of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He says they're only working at maybe 24-bit when they should be at 64-bit levels.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I said, you mean they're throwing over half the information away?
unidentified		He says, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So independently, De Latoso, which is what I asked him to do looking at this, having not discussed with him any of the particulars, immediately noticed the first weird thing, which is if you're going to present to the American people what their $150 million has paid for, you'd think you'd give a full range of information coming back from Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		For some reason, NASA is not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What you wanted posted on the website is now posted on a new page, which they can get to by going to www.artbell, we're about to discuss this, dot com, and just scroll down to Richard's name and click on the appropriate link.
		It'll take you over and show you one of the things that we are about to talk about.
		Richard, let us not hold people in suspense.
		What have you found on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Things, junk, artifacts, machines, broken machines, geometric stuff.
		I mean, it's like we had landed a junkyard out of Duluth.
		Is that too great an overstatement, Ron?
unidentified		Well, it certainly is localized as it somehow.
unidentified		It's in Ron's backyard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is the most amazing thing, and the thing we need to do, and what we got on the website, which of course is on the Enterprise website, connected through our best, is the four-page press release, which has gone out now or is going out to all the major media in the country, and it's being posted on all other websites.
		And if you want to go over and copy it and post it and send it around, by all means, feel free.
		That's what we want you to do.
		And at the bottom of this release, which describes what we're going to talk about, and it describes some of our methodology and the participants and some surprises, alludes to a couple of surprise guests that we may have, and it looks like we're going to have one who is not so much a surprise anymore because he just told me he would come, Jim Deletoso.
		We have two examples, two stunning examples before and after of what we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What you're suggesting, Richard, is that we landed in an area that you're calling a junkyard, which is evidence with remnants of a previous technological civilization.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that a fair statement?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It looks to be the suburbs of an ancient city complex, a second complex like Sidonia, located at 19.5 degrees north latitude, key important latitude on Mars, and about 22.5 degrees west of Sidonia, which is another important number, and we'll describe that in a little bit more detail later in the evening.
		We began to suspect, all right, that we were in something really interesting when, as you know, a few weeks ago, I called you and I pointed your attention to the so-called super-resolution view of these twin peaks off in the western distance, about a mile away.
		And I had called Ron's attention as a geologist, and I'd sent him, you know, imagery, and I said, look at This?
		Does it make sense geologically to have this degree of what we call rectilinear organization, right-angle stuff?
		And he looked at it and he looked at the unprocessed frames, and we did a whole five-hour show.
		And during that show, remember, we discussed a model which had these peaks as ancient arcologies.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		My model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pyramids.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Pyramids.
		Which had been somehow ripped open by this massive flood that we are told used to course down this ancient valley many, many millions plus years ago.
		And Ron and I discussed on that show the possibility that we could be at the edges of the debris field of stuff that would have been ripped out of these enclosed super cities, pyramidal-shaped super cities, and strewn over the landscape.
		And subsequent to that program, we simply began to look.
		And what we have come up with in the last several weeks has been nothing short of unbelievable, certainly to Ron, because Ron has been the conservative anchor on my tendencies to extrapolate somewhat beyond the edge of the paper.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're accurately assessing yourself.
unidentified		Well, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I try to do that.
		My role is to push the envelope.
		I assume no bones that that is my function.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That is why I brought Ron on first, because his level of excitement was unprecedented.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the things that I've tried to do in organizing enterprise over the years is to bring a number of other people with a number of different backgrounds and disciplines and psychological perspectives to serve as a counterweight to my job, which is to push the envelope.
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's what leadership is all about.
		And so, you know, I have several tests that I run.
		I have, you know, Susan, Susan Caraban.
		And I make many, many jokes about the Caravan test.
		If I can show Susan something on a screen and she recognizes it, then I know it'll fly in Poughkeepsie.
		Well, Ron, as a professional, you know, 30-plus years in the field, he became the professional test.
		If he could see this stuff and could agree with me that it was pretty damn interesting, then I knew we had something to go with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, you've got to begin by taking the public from A to B because so far the public is going to probably be like me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And of all the photographs I've seen, save the twin peaks that we did a whole show on, most of what I've seen, Richard, are rocks.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, where have you seen them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On TV.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, on TV and on NASA's website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So...
		But you had to be there at the very beginning, the first night when NASA made the mistake, and we can talk about whether it was a mistake or it was carefully planned by some within the agency, of basically trying to prove us wrong.
		Remember during Mars Observer how I made a huge fuss about the fact that after 37 years of doing this, NASA was not going to, in 93, give us live images?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I have beat this refrain and beat this refrain and beat this refrain.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, on Mars Pathfinder, the powers that be in NASA decided that they would basically show us up and show us to be total idiots and would give the American people and the world live television from Mars Pathfinder.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which did land on Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, when it landed on Mars, they gave us for a few minutes some very crucial live views.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many minutes?
		How early?
		The very first stuff or what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The very first stuff that came in.
		And there was probably only about seven or eight minutes, as I go back and look at the tapes.
		And then suddenly something happened.
		There was a communications failure, and the live TV from Mars came to a sudden end.
		But before that happened, CNN, ABC, NBC, Fox, and countless private individuals recorded all over the world these priceless live TV frames.
		Now this is really important because what we did after the show on the Twin Peaks is that I went back to the recordings that we had made and I pulled them up and I began looking at them very carefully on the theory that if in fact the Twin Peaks were arcologies, ancient pyramid cities, maybe, just maybe we had landed close enough that there might be something out amidst all those rocks that was not a rock, that was something else.
		And what I was not prepared for was how easy it was on the original live uncensored data to see what we were maybe hoping to see.
		And what we then did was to use some very special programs, including one developed at This is a program that has been developed by some very bright folks in North Cross, Georgia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, hold it there.
		Ron, hold it there.
		We'll be right back.
		We're talking Mars, the early Mars.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is Coast to Coast.
unidentified		Coast to Coast.
		Coast to Coast.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		Good morning.
		Ron Nix is here.
		He's a geologist along with Richard C. Hoagland coming up in the next hour is David Oates, and he's got some confirming reversals on the NASA focus.
		Some you've heard, some brand new.
		So we'll get back to Ron and Richard in a moment.
		All right.
		Back now to Ron Nixon.
		Richard C. Hoagland, you're both back on the air again.
		Richard, we're a little short on time in the sense that we're going to be bringing David Oates on at the top of the hour.
		So let's run through.
		We've got an example on a website right now.
		Tell us what is up there and tell us what we're seeing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, what we've done is put our press release, which announces this event on Thursday evening, September 11th, which is a week and a half away.
		We will be at the Doubletree Inn in Pasadena, just down the street from JPL, the same night and the same time that NASA is putting the Mars Surveyor spacecraft into orbit.
		And we are going to be presenting to somewhere around 1,000 people.
		I think that's how many people can get into the Doubletree.
		This data in color, in black and white, comparisons, a lot of these objects, which are clearly now technological objects, with Ron, with David John Oates, with, it turns out now, Jim DeLatoso, myself, and a couple of surprises.
		There is an information number.
		If you want to get tickets to get into this thing while they're still available, you can call 818-952-4195.
		That's 818-952-4195.
		And an example that we're going to be showing is on the website right now.
		What you will see is a black and white montage and then a color montage taken a few hours apart by the Pathfinder spacecraft.
		The black and white montage is from a panorama whose frame number is 80818.
unidentified		881, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		881, I'm sorry.
		.jpg.
		It's full .jpg.
		It was what they call the insurance panorama.
		It was the first panorama made by the spacecraft after it landed with the IMP camera not deployed, not popped up on its mast.
		And it's a 360 panorama on a black and white grid with degrees at the bottom.
		So you can actually see where north is and south and east and west and where twin peaks and all that.
		It is the earliest generation panorama that was published by NASA in the first few hours after the landing.
		Off the pedal, off the solar panel where the rover, Sojourner, was sitting.
		And it's such an early panorama that the airbags, remember the airbags, they had a problem that the airbags were kind of not under the panel and they couldn't drive the rover off?
		Sure.
		This picture, this panorama, which is a stunning panorama, is so early that the airbags have not yet been withdrawn under the spacecraft.
		And right over the edge of the rover, the solar panel of the rover, which is crouched down, it hasn't been popped up to its full two-foot height, there is something which, for all the world, looks like, I mean, Ron calls it a motor, an electric motor, and I call it a gyro.
		And it's basically the same kind of thing.
		What it is, is a toroidal donut-shaped structure with internal detail, fins and armature and couplings and fairings and complex geometry around it, clearly sitting right off the edge of the panel, a few inches away from the rover panel of the lander itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ron, is that what you see too?
unidentified		Yeah, that's correct.
		It looks like a...
		Lord knows what the material is.
		We're dealing with a technology that may or may not be the same.
		The types of heavy electric motors that you would use on ships or with pumps where you, if you look at it kind of end on, first of all, they're sort of cylindrical.
		They can be kind of fat and chubby and cylindrical.
		You look at the end, you can see holes for ventilation like, and you can see where the shaft protrudes right in the middle.
		So you'd have this radial geometry within the end of this cylinder.
		This kind of looks like that, like a motor that's tipped over on its side.
		You can see two very symmetrical, they're both equal, the same shape on each side that are like mounting brackets with a rod through them, as though it were a mounting rod.
		I don't know what they are, but we have to use the language somehow to try and describe them.
		And it looks very much looking like you're looking right at the end of a motor where you can see the shaft where it would come out of the middle.
		You can see the radial supports that would hold a casing.
		And part of the casing is eroded or corroded away.
		You can kind of look in, like, at the top edge of it, and you can see what would be the armature in there.
		What would be the part inside that's spinning inside the coils.
		It looks like a motor.
		Now what I've done is there's That's not the only one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are more than, you know, one of the things that we found is that once we've identified one of these geometric things, you may not know what it is because it's obviously we're extrapolating from our experience on Earth to a totally alien environment.
		So what you need to do is to withhold judgment as to what it is, trying to give it a name.
		And we're only giving these things name in the same vein as that the NASA guys started talking about Sub-Doo and Yogi and all that.
		I mean, if they can do it, we can do it, right?
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But what we've done is we found classes of objects.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And this is really important because what Ron's done is, how many are on your list now, Ron?
unidentified		Well, the old list had 44 on it, but I've got tens more than that now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, you want to run down the kind of classes of things that are on your list?
unidentified		Well, there are things that I've chosen to call manifolding, which looks like, for the world, like you took a bunch of PVC pipe, like you do your sprinklers with, and you have elbows and three-way joints, and sometimes you have bundles of them stacked up, and one of the interesting things is you get different perspectives on these bundles of pipes.
unidentified		Some of them you'll be looking almost straight on at a bundle of them, others like a rectilinear bundle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I am now looking at this thing you call an ancient gyroscopic gyroscopic unit on Mars.
		Question mark.
		It is very odd, I must admit.
		It is very odd.
unidentified		I've seen what's on the website, so I don't know what image you put up there, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a black and white image, and I'm sure it's the same one that you've been looking at.
unidentified		Probably.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's one of those composites I've been creating with the lettering and the arrows and the designation of the original frame it's taken from.
		Now, what I've done, I've companioned it with a frame that is from the first color panorama, which came out a few, about an hour later.
		And by the time the NASA guys got around to putting the color panorama, which was from the same set of pictures that the black and white camera had taken, except they were red, green, and blue, what they've done on the color is they have, in this one tiny section right over the rover, looking down at this motor or gyroscope, they have misregistered the three colors.
		In other words, they haven't registered them at all.
		They have separated them by a few pixels so that you have red lines, green lines, and blue lines, and it's completely obscured the stunning geometry of the thing lying just off the rover pedal of the lander.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the black and white photos, whatever grayscale is there, are nevertheless very, very intriguing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I've been doing is using this fractal program, which is in use by the U.S. Army and by NASA and the FBI and a few other agencies, it uses a totally different theory of imaging.
unidentified		Richard, can I interrupt you?
unidentified		I think it's important for listeners to know that I have not been using that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, you've been looking at the straight-forward 80-881.
unidentified		That's right.
		And whatever I can do with it with regard to enhancing its brightness or its contrast, that's it.
		I can't change the image.
		It is what it is, but I could change brightness and contrast, those sorts of things.
		I will let you go ahead, Richard, but I wanted to discuss briefly, if we could, the classes of things.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		The cylinders, the canisters, things that are cylinder-shaped with rounded conical tops that have handles on them, and not just the same kind.
		Some of them have horizontally opposed rectilinear handles like you would have on a picnic cooler.
		Others have a bale on them, like you'd have on a two-and-a-half-gallon bucket that you'd carry water in.
		And these things are clear.
		You have to know where to go look, and you'd have to look at them, but they can clearly be seen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these images, the ones that you both are discussing now, still on the NASA website?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		As far as we know, yes.
unidentified		As of two days ago, 80881 was still up there, which is a lot I have used.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, what NASA has done, or someone in NASA, because we don't know who's doing what, is they have organized their imagery by Sol or Martian day, which is roughly equivalent to a day and a few odd minutes in terms of a terrestrial day.
		So the pictures that we have been looking at closely and intensively are the earliest frames that were posted.
		Now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is any of this stuff showing up in the latter frames?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ron?
unidentified		The objects?
unidentified		Well, the answer isn't unequivocal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		There is something where these objects are, but they bear no resemblance to what you had in the first frames.
		There's also that there are these marvelous rectilinear blocks, which can be explained naturally with natural processes.
		Sandstone blocks look like that.
		But they don't have etched in the ends of them perfect black diamonds, a diamond shape.
		I don't mean like a diamond gem.
		I mean like the shape of a diamond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		With four nice little black points at the point and a line connecting them, which just doesn't happen to show up in any of the later images.
		If you have seen the early image, you can see where it's blurred out or changed or for whatever reason or however it was done.
		They just aren't there.
		Those sorts of things aren't in later images.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can either one of you say conclusively that images have been tampered with?
unidentified		Images have been changed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I don't know whether tampered.
		It's a loaded word.
		The images are not the same as they go on later as they are in the beginning.
		There may be perfectly good logical explanations for that.
		But the fact is they are indeed changed.
		I mean, they're not the same thing.
		And they don't change from a lower quality to a higher quality.
		They seem to change from a higher quality to a lower quality every place you want to look.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The sign is wrong.
		Now, the key calibration here, you see, if we were only looking at the NASA website, we would have no calibration.
		We wouldn't really know we were looking at imaging artifacts of the compression process used to put it on the web.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the fact that we had downlinked and recorded the live CNN and ABC and other imagery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Early stuff, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The earliest, the first stuff that hit the Earth, the same stuff that eventually wound up on NASA's website, except this was before NASA did anything to it.
		It just came from the spacecraft.
		And we were able to look and compare identical frames on the panorama with the single frames that came in through CNN or ABC and see exactly the same thing we're seeing.
		In fact, in the live stuff, it's even better resolution because NASA had not derezzed it.
		They hadn't blurred it like they have attempted to do.
		And Ron may equivocate, but I can say flatly, there has been absolute alteration and an attempt to hide this stunning set of objects around the lander.
		No question at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you're saying, of course, if you're both right, has stunning, incredible implications for all that we thought we knew.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lifeless planet that had microbial life was the best we knew about Mars, and here you're suggesting we're staring straight at manufactured items.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Not only are we staring at manufactured items, but there apparently is a very intensive political effort to keep us from knowing this.
		And the people caught in the middle, the scientists involved, the imaging people, are apparently doing what they're doing on the web as a desperate cry for help.
		As I'm sure if you were to talk to Jim, and maybe he will call in to say a couple words, but he and I discussed earlier tonight that if these NASA folks really wanted to hide all this, we would never know.
		The fact that we've got the live down link, you know, that's crucial comparative analysis.
		If they wanted to make seamless copies of what's on the web, they could certainly, with the tools we have available, the digital tools, you know, in a world of forest gump, you can make anything into anything.
		The fact that there are very crude cuts, Ron, you want to talk about how some of the rocks and the shadows just don't match and what happens when you simply cut them apart and put them back together the way they should be put together?
unidentified		Well, yeah, some of the cuts in the areas that you want to go look at and the shadows, you look at some of the images and just by your nature, your eye tends to follow on these cuts and you tend to disregard these things and say, well, you know, that's just a poor match.
unidentified		But when you start to overlap and actually bring things together, then it becomes stunningly obvious what the object is that you're looking at.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are several amazing examples.
unidentified		And it would seem unusual that every place where you're interested in looking at something, you have this sort of thing going on.
unidentified		Well, not every place, but in most places.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's an effort to hide, but it's not really an effort to hide.
		That's what's so mysterious, because if they really wanted to hide it, they could do it and we'd never know.
		It's almost like there's a revolt where someone has been told, look, hide this.
		And the guys who are hiding it are doing it in the crudest, most amateurish way that screamingly calls attention to what they're doing.
		And because we have a population now filled with computers and Photoshop programs and the internet connectivity, an awful lot of people independently can undo what they have done, reassemble the mosaic properly, and sit there and be mind-boggled by what they're going to see.
		And these images we will lay out in five hours of exhaustive detail, including how we're doing it, on Thursday night, the 11th there in Pasadena at the Doubletree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ron, how convinced on a scale of 10 are you that what we're looking at are manufactured, at one-time, manufactured artifacts?
unidentified		I can't ever say 10 until somebody holds one of those in their hand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		But I will come asymptotically close to 10.
		Okay?
		Really?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Define asymptotically.
unidentified		Well, the frog jumping out of the well half the distance forever.
		He never gets to the top, but he gets close enough.
		You keep jumping half the remaining distance.
		Well, you never get out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we've got Jim De La Toso.
		You're a geologist, Ron.
		Who else have either one of you consulted with on what you've got so far?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, one of the curious things is that we've had emails and faxes from two other teams, which after our first show, Arn, the Twin Peak Show, were put together to basically go and see if we were crazy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And Ron, you want to tell them what they found instead?
unidentified		Well, they're finding similar sorts of features.
unidentified		Things difficult to explain geologically.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, we have not compared our data with theirs, and vice versa.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But what we're going to do is to have at least one of the representatives, who's in California, present on Thursday night on the 11th to stand up and lay out some of what they have found and why they now believe that we're in deep political doo-doo in terms of what NASA has been telling us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ron, you're going to be there then on the 11th.
unidentified		I'm going to do my best to be there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're going to bring David Oates on here shortly because he's got some rather remarkable, remarkable reversals.
		So, Ron, while I have David on, if I can, I'm going to drop you off and leave Richard on, and we may or may not pick you back up again.
unidentified		That's fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I presume you can sit and listen to the program.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
unidentified		Do you want to stay on the line?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's actually easier if I don't hold you on, all right?
		So I'll drop you off the line.
		Thank you, Ron.
		And Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Go check the website and check that I've done it properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have.
		I took a look as we were talking, and I marveled.
		I did marvel.
		That black and white photograph does seem to show something that is not geologically a simple mind, you know, our mind, as Michio Kaku said, Professor, putting together something out of chaos.
		It doesn't seem that at all.
		It does look rather manufactured to me.
		It doesn't look like it came down with a rover.
		I suppose somebody might suggest that, that it's some sort of remnant from the rover itself because it is so close.
unidentified		It's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's not that.
		It's what other people would look casually at and say it's a rock.
		But it really, yeah, to me, it doesn't look like a rock.
		It looks like it's something else, perhaps very old, very ancient, very pitted, but very manufactured as well.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, you know me.
		I haven't put the best up.
		We're saving the best for Thursday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Let me tell everybody: you can get tickets, folks, by calling area code 818-952-4195.
		So that's where, of course, the best stuff will be.
		And then after that event, we'll get the reaction of the people who went to see it, too.
		818-952-4195 to get reservations or tickets or whatever.
		Coming up in a moment after the news with Richard C. Hoagland, David John Oates, who has done reversals on the very people who have been responsible for taking these photographs, the people at NASA.
		And he's got a couple of stunners.
		There's no question about it.
		So stay right where you are.
		That coming up after the news at the top of the hour.
unidentified		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. As your credit call, Art Bell, toll-free, west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm Art Bell.
		Coming up in just a moment, Richard C. Hoagland, along with David John Oates.
		Now, there's a combination for you.
		And David has done a lot of work that would seem to underline very heavily what Richard and Ron Nix have told you about regarding the artifacts, the manufactured artifacts on Mars.
		This is not a trivial claim, because if it is true, then obviously it validates the fact there was a civilization on Mars long ago.
		Does that seem possible to you?
		It certainly is within the realm of my possible world.
		In other words, I had long thought there may have at one time been a civilization on Mars.
		I don't rule it out.
		And it seems much more likely this morning.
		At any rate, those photographs, as well as the photographs of my trip to Alaska and many, many other things, are on the web at www.artbell.com 65.
unidentified		The End Ah, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've been giving you a sneak preview of this superb new Cusco album for several weeks.
		Well, now it's here.
		A Purimac 3, Nature, Spirit, and Pride.
		This cut is called Ghost Dance.
		Just for you, the folks at Higher Octave have put together a special offer.
		You can get this new Cusco album, Apuramax 3, produced $15.98 on CD, $9.98 for cassette.
		Call now, 1-800-562-8283.
		And if you're one of the first 25 callers to place an order tonight, your copy will be autographed by Cusco's own Michael Holm.
		Or the limited edition boxed set with all three CDs in Cusco's Apuramac series, along with an autographed poster for just $39.95.
		This beautiful box set is not available in stores.
		What a great gift for you, Cusco lovers.
		Once again, that's the entire Apuramac collection.
		Boxed set, three CDs for just $39.95.
		Or Cusco's new Apuramac 3 album on CD for just $15.98 or $9.98 on Cazette Plus Shipping and Handling.
		Call now for this limited time offer.
		1-800-562-8283 or 800-5 Octave and mention Art Bell.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There it is.
		I know a lot of you have been waiting for that, so go get it.
		It is one of the best hunks of music I've ever heard in my whole life.
		All right.
		Here once again is Richard Seehogland.
unidentified		Richard?
unidentified		Mm-hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		We're going to bring David Oates on, and this is sort of a completely different angle.
		When is your event?
		As a matter of fact, he's going to be at your event, correct?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		David will be at our event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and your event is where is.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Thursday, September 11th, a week and a half from now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thursday, September 11th.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Begins about 7 o'clock in the evening, goes to at least midnight.
		It's simultaneous with the party that JPL is throwing for when they put Mars Surveyor into orbit.
		It follows a morning demonstration being organized by a separate contingent of our folks outside of JPL, where we will have placards showing the artifacts and then the disappearance of the artifacts from the Pathfinder frames.
		And the main question is, look, if we can't trust them to show us what's on Mars from the surface, how can we possibly trust them to show us Sidonia from Surveyor when it's supposedly in position next March?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		The phone number for the event is area code 818-952-4195, right?
		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what we also need, in addition to people, we need some volunteers.
		We're going to have an overwhelming number of people there that night.
		We need some volunteers.
		If you're in the LA area and you want to come and basically get tickets for free and give us a little help to organize people and to make sure that everybody gets a chance to see what we're going to show them, call that same number and volunteer a little bit at a time.
		We could certainly use it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Let's bring David Oates on.
		David Oates does reverse speech.
		And David is very well known on this program now.
		I guess, really, David, we got you going in the big national way on this show, didn't we?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you were certainly the first radio station to listen to me and give me a fair hearing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand now many others are listening to you and giving you a fair hearing.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		That is true.
		I've made quite an impact in the last year, and many people who are skeptical are now coming around and saying there really is something to this.
		I'm getting a lot of airplay both on radio and TV.
		My week we get wello, we get thousands of phone calls a week into the office, and reverse speech is really making a major significant impact, and I personally think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My understanding is, and I know firsthand, you are being nominated for a Nobel Prize.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope it comes to pass.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope it comes to pass, too.
		And maybe I should just clarify one issue.
		I've been recommended for nomination, so we've still got a few steps to go.
		But the recommendation's been backed up by two or three others since it was first announced on your program.
		So I think we've got a good chance.
		We'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Time will tell.
		Now, I had you go to work on some early NASA stuff when I had a couple of NASA representatives who Richard urged me to have on, who I had on the show.
		And you reversed them, and some of that was absolutely remarkable.
		But now we've had the Pathfinder mission underway for a period of time.
		And Richard asked you to go back to work, and I know you've just done some very early work on some of the things they've had to say.
		And so without much further ado, let's get into what you found, David.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, perhaps what I thought I might do first of all, I've already got queued up.
		I want to play a couple of examples from the Mars press conference I played on your program at about a month ago.
		This was a conference in July 31st, 1997.
		And then we'll backtrack to some of the ones I did this afternoon.
		This one is these two reversals I'm about to play now are very, very significant.
		But first of all, let's just play the forward dialogue, and then I'll introduce the reversals.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ben set even greater land distance rover records on Mars by going a full six meters in autonomous fashion, as will be described later, over to this region behind these two rocks named Calvin and Hobbes.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		He just talking generally about the rover traveling around.
		We have two reversals in this section that really puzzled me when I first found them.
		The first one says, Reveal the Dark City.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hurry it out with Dalricks and Yep.
unidentified		Hurry up with Valorks and Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And once more.
unidentified		Hurry up with Valorks and Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reveal the Dark City.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And when I first heard that, I was really quite puzzled as to what that meant.
		And then as soon as I found that reversal, I found the one I'm about to play you immediately afterwards, which says, and the white man's skull, we see it now hidden.
		And the white man's skull, we see it now hidden.
		I'll play it and then we'll discuss what that means.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the Weichman's car rooster hidden now, hidden it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's white man's skull.
		I'm sorry.
		I'm always doing that.
		I'm so amazed.
		That's so clear to me.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's an exceptionally clear reverse.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Let's play it one more speed.
unidentified		And the Weiss means our rooster hidden now, hidden it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, when I found those two reversals, I was really scratching my head, and I brought in a couple people to listen to it and check, because they hear exactly the same thing.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And the whole inference behind this was that they are looking at now a city of some description.
unidentified		David?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The first forward section you played was from Matt Golumbeck, who is the Pathfinder Project Scientist.
		Right.
		Young guy that we've seen on most of the press conferences.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Who is the speaker on the second reversal?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It is the same speaker.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's Matthew Golembeck.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's the same.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Matthew Golembeck is the guy, Parr Nunn, who has been singled out by Donna Shirley, who was the exploration manager for NASA, for JPL, for Mars, and by people like Dan Golden, who's the head of NASA, many other people, have said that Matthew Golenbeck single-handedly is the guy who convinced NASA to land Pathfinder exactly where it's landed.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So if anybody should have known or suspected what was where they've landed, it should be Dr. Golenbeck.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, these two reversals, the way I see it, and they're based on my experience with reverse speech, is literally talking about the remains of an ancient city.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		The white man's skull I see as a metaphoric statement, you know, something that's dead, but clearly the white man, I'm not too sure what they're referring to that, unless it's certainly comparing it to maybe the European skull, whatever.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it's a little more literal, and we shall get into that on Thursday night at Pasadena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what about the first reversal?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Reveal the Dark City?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reveal the Dark City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, any hints of why Dark City?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, remember, when we're...
		Ten years ago, when I was in Washington powing around with some Senate committees trying to get Sidonia taken seriously, I was introduced to David's reversals in the most unlikely setting, which was a major staff person very high up in one of the premier Senate committees in Washington,
		D.C., who not only demonstrated David's tapes or the kind of material that you've heard over the last few months, but specifically said this was being used by the committee in an operational context during hearings.
		In other words, they would record witnesses and then behind the scenes, play them backwards to see if they were telling the truth.
		The other thing this individual informed me and others in this private briefing was that there was a major intelligence agency at that time also using this identical procedure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not surprised.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, this is why when you Had David do the first NASA interviews with Don Savage and Ray Billard, I was far less skeptical of what we were hearing than a lot of people, for instance, involved in the enterprise conversations because I knew there was an operational history that went back at least 10 years where people in the know in Washington simply assume that this is true and it can be used in a very valid context.
		What I did not expect was that David would get as intrigued himself in what we were looking at and that he would willingly embrace the idea of searching further.
		And it was when you did the second show with the, what, the July 31st press conference, and you discussed perhaps making yourself available for further analysis, that I took the opportunity to dump, how many tapes on you did I send?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got them sitting right here.
		There's probably at least a half a dozen to our video tapes.
		So we're looking at 12 hours of tape time.
		Now, if anyone understands reverse speech analysis, you'll understand that 12 hours of tape time translates to probably 300 or 400 hours of analysis time.
		It's still a very time-intensive process at this stage.
		But that's about to change because we've just made a major breakthrough in software Devel limit.
		And we have actually isolated just this week, last week, we have isolated the unique waveform signatures that reversals create.
		Now, you probably are aware, certainly you are, Art, of the very unique sing-song tone that reversals have.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you can cause a computer to look through backward speech and stop when it finds.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's going to make it faster.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		That's going to speed up my job no end.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I've got the guy flying down to see me tomorrow.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wow.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		We're discussing arrangements to get the software produced and developed.
		This does several things.
		A, it means that I can do a lot more analysis time than I'm currently doing now because my time has cut down significantly.
		But also, it also takes reverse speech even further out of the imagination-suggested criticism that the points throw at it because now we've got a computer that can recognize and say, hey, this waveform here is significantly different from these hubrish samples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, a very well-taken point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, it is not the human ear hearing what it wants to hear, but rather a computer actually able to identify the process that is occurring as reverse speech occurs.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct.
unidentified		I've got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I've got it.
		That's tremendous, David.
		Congratulations on that.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I'm very, very excited.
		And, of course, the next step from this now is to actually get speech recognition circuitry to decipher reverse phrases itself.
		And then we are really moving into high-tech sci-fi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got some more for us, I believe.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yes I do, let's just play one more from this press conference here and then we'll And I need to say here that Richard and I have had no, we have not compared our notes or compared findings here at all.
		We have spoken after I went on the air with this, which has been great for me because it's been able to satisfy some of my mystery about all of this.
		So here we have another reversal of this same conference.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Here, through the cabbage patch here and across that to a region behind, or just in front of Calvin and Hobbes.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		and this is a message now hidden this view now in the year now in this year now in this year as is This and the view are pretty close together, but that goes along with the white man's skull.
		We see it now hidden, and this is just a confirmation of that, that the view indeed has been hidden.
		And clearly from this and from a reversal I'm about to play you now, something is going on.
		And the images that we are seeing, according to Richard and according to these people's very own speech reversals, are not what they appear to be.
		Here's another one.
unidentified		It also indicates that the soft polar cap at this season has reached its maximum extent and is now beginning to sublime.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And this one says, that's human scams.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It shields them.
unidentified		That's human scams.
		It shields them.
		That's human hams.
		It shields them.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And you can hear the very unique waveform characteristic that these reversals have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, about a serial quality.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and all the gen reversals sound exactly like that.
unidentified		All right, now again.
unidentified		I'm sorry, go on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's human scams.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It shields them.
		It shields what?
		It's hiding something.
		Something is being shielded or hidden from view.
		And that's a very consistent theme.
		Certainly throughout the press conference I analyzed on July 31st and also on the conferences I did this afternoon as well.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now what's interesting is by July 31, everybody had kind of settled down.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You had about a month go by.
		Nobody had blown the whistle.
		Nobody had come in and said, you're scamming us.
		You're faking the images.
		You're hiding stuff.
		So that everybody, when they were doing these press conferences, should have been on pretty even keel.
		What I gave David were the first tapes out of the box of the first press conference and the pre-press conference, even before the landing, because in these days, just as this all was fresh and brand new, an awful lot of body language and forward conversation appears very curious and strange and not consistent.
		And I think I gave him this afternoon, not knowing that we would get anything, but knowing what's in the pictures, and David did not disappoint.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		No, not in the least.
		And I've got a couple of surprises for you as we play these reversals.
		Let me just Pick up one here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, again, it's important to me, even aside from this amazing announcement about the computer business, that what we get in the reversals is totally relevant to what's being said forward and revealing, I mean, to things that are on Mars.
		That's human scams, it shields them, dark cities, on and on.
		All of these things are relevant.
		In other words, if reversals were random gibberish, we'd get things like, I know who shot Kennedy or some totally unrelated thing.
		But we're not getting that.
		We're getting things about Mars and specifically about Mars people.
		From Mars.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From Mars people.
		Exactly right.
		Hard to deny.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Both of you stay put.
		We'll be back after the bottom of the hour.
		And I know that there are a couple of surprises because though the work is early, David has just begun to dig into some of these tapes Richard sent.
		So that coming up next.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		Coast to Coast AM
		Coast to Coast AM Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, top of the morning.
		Richard C. Hoagland and David John Oates, an unlikely combination, with us at the same time.
		They'll be right back.
		A-R-C.
		All right, back now to David John Oates and Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		David?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
		Okay, we're going to run with some reversals now from the press conferences on July the 4th.
		And I'm going to, these aren't necessarily played in order like I usually do.
		I'm just going to pick out some fairly obvious ones first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, this was the day that it landed.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		This was the day that it landed.
		I want you to notice the difference in the tense of the reversals.
		I'm going to, the first ones I played was the white man's skull.
		We see it now hidden.
		It's something that has already taken place.
		And now hidden this view.
		Here we have two phrases repeated twice, now hidden and now hidden.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's from the July 31 press.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		That's from the July 31 conference.
		That was the first ones I played.
		So now we're going back in time to July the 4th.
		And the tenth of the reversals around this topic changes.
		And so here, I want you to notice very carefully to what he's talking about forwards now.
		He's talking about the images that are available indicating there's safe areas on either side of the pedal, the pedal that the rover's on to roll off onto the surface.
		So here we go with the forwards.
unidentified		Our assessment done from the stereo images that were available in this set indicate that there are safe areas on either side of this pedal for the rover to drive.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And this reversal here occurs when he's talking about the images, and it says simply they're faking it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my, they're faking it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		They're faking it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's clear as day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who was it who said that?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I don't actually know who.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is the Mars Rover Project Manager.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We will have a telephone book, a list of dramatist personae.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		This is just my very first initial assessment.
		I haven't gone back and cross-checked my findings.
		You know, I just started on this thing this afternoon.
		So by the time we present this on Thursday, I will have all this clearly documented.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, David, would you play that again, please?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, sure.
		Just backtrack a sec.
		Okay, here we go.
unidentified		Thank you, Nick.
		He actually dropped the G. They're faking it.
		Yeah.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, the way you would say it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's as plain as day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the way I'd say it, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're faking it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and according to the images, I'm now looking at Richard's website.
		That is exactly what has happened.
		The images are very clear, and the first black and white frames, and then the color frames come down, and the colour's been messed with somehow, and you can't see it anymore.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, all they've done is misregister.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Oh, okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They moved them geometrically above and below so the three colors don't coincide.
		And so you get all those funny bars, and you can't see anything.
		That's the only part of the whole frame where they do that to cover that object.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		This is where it's good doing the program with you, Rich.
		I'm an expert on reverse speech.
		I know my topic very, very well.
		But one of the difficult things about reverse speech is whilst we can be accurate and fairly certain about what the reversals are saying, when it comes down to the interpretation, then you need some background knowledge and at least a rough idea of what's going on, which is clearly the case with the white man's skull.
		Here we have another reversal about an obvious misread or misdirection of information.
		This is the, I want you to notice the forward dialogue on this one too, he's not talking about photographs at this stage, but talking about possible landing sites for the Mars Pathfinder.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The Pathfinder probably could have landed, physically landed, anywhere where the elevation was below the data.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And now we have a future tense reversal that says, I will share the lie.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Don't wanna share it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Don't wanna share it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Don't wanna share away.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will share the lie.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		A little bit fast.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But that's Matthew Gollenbeck again, the project scientist.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And it's a future tense projection.
		I will share or continue to agree to or be a part of the lie, whatever the lie is.
		And I've got some other reversals here that are just amazing.
		And let me, and this, the next few I'm going to need help with on these.
		I don't even pretend to know what some of these mean.
		Here is one talking about, they just talk about the airbag detracting the airbag.
unidentified		Try to deploy the rover ramps, but the rover team and the pedal team, the mechanical team, and the airbag team have looked at it very, very carefully, and they've concluded that the safe thing to do is to attempt this additional retraction.
unidentified		Now.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's what I thought says.
unidentified		Maybe.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's Donna Shirley, who is the Mars Exploration Manager at JPL, whose idea was for Pathfinder, who's been there 30 years.
		She's a 30-year veteran at JPL, which is a key part of our story on Thursday night.
		The role and the planning of JPL politically for a very long time to pull this off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, this reversal is a past tense that says, released our brain in the east.
		I don't even know what the brain means, but I believe that the face on Mars site is east of this or northeast of this particular location.
		And there was reversals I played a long time ago about a strong interest in Mars and Sidonia.
		So here we go.
		Released our brain in the east.
		And I want to play one more after this as well.
		You hear that one, Oi?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we'll do it one more time.
		What brain?
		I mean, what is she talking about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea either.
		Let me play you one more reversal about the brain.
		This is a word I've never ever heard before on any of the Mars or space tapes that I've done.
		So let's run this one as well.
unidentified		There may be some rocks that are entrained in the airbag, and we may pull them in if they're free, but that doesn't represent a problem for us.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And this one says, name the lock, damn you with our brain.
		name the lock, damn you with our brain.
		Very puzzling reversal.
		And I want to get Richard's opinion on this, and then I'll...
		Name the lock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lock.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Lock.
		But listen for rock.
		I'm pretty sure it was lock.
		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
		Name the lock, damn you, we got brain.
		Name the lock, damn you, we have brain.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And we'll do it one more time as slow speed.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It's a fairly fast reversal.
unidentified		Name the wolf, Damien, we got brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I heard clearly.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Definitely lock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		So there's something in the East, released our brain in the East, name the Lock.
		I mean, the way I interpret reversals, and let me just state up front that the art of reversal interpretation is still an evolving arc, an evolving art.
		But name the lock, recognize what this is.
		Name is to give meaning or substance to something in reverse.
		Name the lock.
		Lock is to be sealed off, something that is sealed.
		Damn you with our brain.
		I'm lost on that one.
		The closest I can get to is with other reversals I've found on NASA.
		There appears to be, and I say appears to be because I'm not sure, there appears to be two separate missions running.
		I'm leaning more and more towards that all the time.
		I'm looking at the intense interest in the face of Mars and the Sidonia region, and I'm saying to myself, why haven't they gone there?
		If that's where all the interest is, according to the reverse speech.
		And I'm wondering, is the brain in the east a probe they've dropped or a computer or something that's analyzing Sidonia, the face?
		I don't know.
		I don't know.
		I'm trying to put some meaning to some very puzzling reversals.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One of the things we're going to do on Thursday night is to prevent, present, boy, what that sounds like on reversal, I wonder, is to present data from Ken Johnston, who, as you know, is an engineer with Boeing, formerly with NASA, who I asked to look into the technical capabilities of the Delta launch vehicle.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember, Art, you know, where I got myself in trouble in terms of the landing was because of the fuel factor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		600 pounds of fuel.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right, and too much fuel for the weight of the spacecraft it carries.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's beginning to look as if, technically now, totally apart from David's work, there may in fact be two Pathfinder missions carried in the same nose cone and deployed separately a few days out from Mars.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One to land at this site and the other one to go to Sidonia.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		That is consistent with what I found.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Released our brain in the east, east Sidonia, east or northeast of the current landing site.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, remember, we have been looking at Sidonia, which of course is the only site that we knew existed, as a potential connection point between events on Mars and events on the Earth.
		And what is the most important event on Earth that we could possibly want to connect an ancient civilization on Mars to?
		Obviously, the origin and evolution of Homo sapiens, the appearance of us on planet Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what differentiates us, gentlemen, from everything else on Earth?
		Our brains.
		So when you start thinking in terms of metaphors and origins and this white man's skull, a lot of these pieces are going to be able to finally draw together on Thursday night at the Double Tree in Pasadena on the 11th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		David, in this series, are you pretty well done?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's probably just a couple more reversals I'd like to play, and then I'm done.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a year two I want to play.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, why don't you go ahead and do those, and then I've got a thought.
unidentified		Okay.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		All right, here we go.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Talking about, here is Jacob, I can't even pronounce his last name, the Mars Rover Manager, talking about the reason why they didn't deploy the rear ramp.
unidentified		Actually, the telemove activity that was conducted tonight.
		That was the reason why we didn't deploy the rear ramp.
		Otherwise, the images that we did get of the rear...
david oates ▲ ● ▼		We missed that.
		Move the weapon.
		In other words, they've missed it.
		Something they overlooked.
		Move the weapon.
		This is consistent with other reversals I found about a gun and research and going back with weaponry.
unidentified		We missed that.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Move the weapon.
unidentified		You hear that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not as clearly, but I do hear it, yes.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right, it's certainly there as far as I can tell.
		And one more on the Yassame token.
		This one is also a puzzle to me.
		And per point of fact, I'm more puzzled about these reversals than I have been on many others, but then I've only just done very few of them and really haven't had a chance to digest the information yet.
		He's talking about a mission they're going back on in 2005.
unidentified		In 2005, we'll send a sample return mission, provided the budget passes Congress, we'll send a sample return mission to bring some pieces of Mars back to Earth so we can really start to really understand Mars.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And this reversal very much concerns me.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It says you will place the missiles.
unidentified		You're welcome.
unidentified		You're welcome.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		The missiles.
unidentified		You're Wolfman this move.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's very clear.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's Donna Shirley again.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that's a future tense reversal and some future plans coming up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You, the taxpayers, no doubt.
		David, can we go back?
		There were a couple of reversals, and I'm not sure whether you can pull them out of your hat or not, on the earlier NASA stuff that talked about weapons and shielding and Sidonia.
		You remember the one that talked about Sidonia?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		Yeah, I can pull them up fairly easily.
		I'm going to that subdirectory now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wanted Richard to hear those and get Richard's reaction to those because they were quite striking.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		We're moving to Sidonia.
		Let's play the probably one of my favorites first, the We're Involved with Sidonia.
		We'll run that one.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Shortly after it got there, when the mapping began that year, Viking Orbiter 1 sent back the picture and somebody noticed it on there.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		And it's kind of a neat thing, too.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay, this reversal is We're Involved with Sidonia.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Very modest Sidonia.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Very modest Sidonia.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Very clear.
unidentified		Very modest Sidonia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we're involved with Sidonia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the chances of that randomly coming in reverse have got to be.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Sidonia is not a word that comes up forward randomly.
unidentified		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly is not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's well put, Richard.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I've never heard the word Sidonia in reverse ever, except for this current type on the Mars mission.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Now, here's one of the reversals about the weapons.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that was, I guess, one of the original, I guess, Seed of the Pants estimates on what possibly caused the formation to look the way it does.
		And it does sort of look like it says.
		You sort of see, which I don't have a picture here in front of me, but I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And this reversal says, now found it safe.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		May the research save that gun.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		November 12th, May, believe itself, say.
unidentified		November 12th, may believe us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there we go.
		Save the gun.
		Richard, any idea why there might be references, so many references to weapons and shielding?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		One of the things, which we did not put on the site tonight, but we will show Thursday, is we have crystal clear photographs now of weapons in the near field around this lander, including something that looks so much like a 105 howitzer that I've been trying to find a picture of a 105 howitzer to put up side by side.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		You've got me breathless now, Richard.
unidentified		Wow.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, it's sitting here on the computer, and I was thinking, should I put this up tonight?
		And what I'll probably do when the program ends is I'll call Keith.
		He's still up, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I'll ship this over and we'll add that to the site.
		I will put up the howitzer because it's, you see, again, we have not shared any of the photographs with David.
		And David has not shared any of his reversals with us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So when we found this thing that looks like a damn 105 howitzer, you know, when you start listening to what these guys are saying subconsciously in reverse and their preoccupation with weapons, when you put it together with the pictures, it's all over with the shouting, and there's going to be one hell of a lot of shouting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there'll be a lot of shouting.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But Thursday night is going to be an historic event.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do not miss it if you can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, David, you're going to be there.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, I'm going to be there.
		I'll be presenting some of my reversals, I believe, Richard.
		Is that not correct?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, you've got one on shielding, too, don't you?
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, I've got two or three on shielding, not just one.
		Let's play one of them now.
		I'm just pulling it up.
		And look, if what I'm finding and if what Richard is finding, our findings together seem to be cooperating each other, this has got to be one of the biggest cover-ups and most significant historical events of our time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, it is.
		When you're talking about knowledge of a previous civilization on Mars, of course it is.
		Well, go ahead.
		Anyway, we're short on time, so I'm going to do the reversal.
unidentified		Okay, so this feature that looks like a face, I believe it's about a mile across.
unidentified		Okay, and it's way below Hubble's resolution.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		I'm not going to play all the forwards on that, just a little bit.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And the reversal is we're riding a shielded vessel.
unidentified		Ribwiding, shielded vessel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ribwidding, shielded vessel.
unidentified		And once more.
unidentified		Ribwid and shielded vessel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, we're riding a shielded vessel.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, interpreting, I would say shielding means hidden, means black project, means the public will never find out.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me play you this reversal.
		Now, making a shield with uranium or iridium.
		I'm not too sure which.
		We discussed this when I played on the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have to think about it.
		I think it's uridium.
		But go ahead.
unidentified		Okay.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Now, making a shield with uridium or uranium, they build a soft spot.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		A pretty decent, probably much better.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I meant to play the reversal and I played the forward instead.
unidentified		Making a shield with our medium button, but ilba hochbas.
don savage ▲ ● ▼		Making a shield with our medium button, but ilmahpas.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And what's more.
unidentified		Making the shield with our medium button, but ilbafpas.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It is a radium.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		There's a definite D there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, David, your work seems to be underscoring that of Richards and complementing it, and it adds to the weight, there's no doubt about it, of the entire argument.
		Right.
		So, David, I'm going to let you go.
		I'm going to thank you for all your work, and I know you're going to dive back into those tapes.
		And congratulations on the computer program.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's going to further validate reverse speech big time.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		It's a very exciting development.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		And if anyone wants to find out any more information about the software or about reverse speech itself, they can call me at 1-800-669-5789.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hear that again.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's 1-800-669-5789.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		David, I really want to thank you.
		Okay.
		And we will have you back at another time.
		And I'm glad that you're going to be at that event.
		You'll add a lot to it.
david oates ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you, Art.
		I appreciate it.
		And it was great to be in this program with Richard.
		I thoroughly enjoyed it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Take care.
		And Richard, hold tight.
		We'll be back to you shortly.
		The event number is area code 818-952-4195.
		I'm Art Bellin.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		If you...
		KSTP.
		KSTP.
		Call Art Bell.
		Toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard C. Hoagland.
		Ron Nicks coming back in a moment.
		And a bit of a surprise in a moment.
		All of that, straight ahead.
		I'm Art Bellin.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. You're listening, of course, to Permac 3 at Cuzco.
		Tonya, we'll get in your blood.
		6'9.
		All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland near Albuquerque.
		Are you there, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I am here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I want you to meet somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the name of that computer program you said you were using?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Fractal Image Transform.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got Michael C. Kelson on the phone.
		I've also got Ron Nix, who will be back in a moment, but I want to bring Michael on very briefly.
		Michael, who did you work for?
unidentified		Yes, I worked for a company in Atlanta, Georgia called Iterated Systems, and they were formerly a Norcross, as Richard said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, and so you actually helped develop some of the software?
unidentified		Yes, absolutely.
unidentified		The Fractal Transform Resolution Enhancement Module for Images Incorporated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that'd be the one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's the one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you have a caution for Richard of some sort, right?
unidentified		Well, the only thing, as I mentioned in my facts to you, is that when you're applying the fractal transform resolution enhancement to an image, that it doesn't actually generate any new information.
		It's not going to put any information that wasn't there in the original data.
		And in fact, the technique has a tendency to invent sort of artificial information.
		The way that the fractal transform resolution enhancement works is it takes blocks of the image and looks for the fractal codes, essentially, that describe that block and then decompresses the image at a higher resolution than it was than the original.
		And that can introduce some quite startling artifacts.
		And one thing that makes this particular technique very interesting for resolution enhancement is the artifacts that this technique actually generates tend to look very natural.
		So if you have a natural looking photograph, the artifacts that it introduces at the higher resolution look also Very natural because it's described, the image is described in components of self-similarity or blocks of self-similarity.
		So that was my only caution, really, is that in using the fractal transform resolution enhancement, it does introduce a lot of artifacts into the image.
		And I think it's a little dangerous to make conclusions based on that sort of enhancement.
		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's not the only program we're using.
		And I fully understand and appreciate exactly what you're saying.
		And we have noticed this, of course, over the last couple, three years that we've been using it.
		And the reason that I bring it into the discussion is because it's one of a mix of tools.
		We have the original data that came down from the network, CNN, et cetera.
		And by calibrating all of these tools against each other, you can arrive at a consensus of what in fact is in these original images.
		And the fractal technology was one of the tools that we used, but it's not obviously the last arbiter.
		And I fully concur that under certain circumstances, it does introduce spurious artifacts that are not real.
		But we are aware of those limitations and I think we understand them.
		And so I believe it's an important tool to put forward.
unidentified		Excellent.
unidentified		Well, thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I assume you agree with that, Michael, having been part of its development.
unidentified		Absolutely.
		It's a wonderful tool, and it allows you to do some very neat things with images, actually describing images in terms of fractal codes.
		But it does introduce artifacts.
		I mean, there's no doubt about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I appreciate your comments, Michael.
		Thank you, and thank you for the facts.
		And now, here once again is geologist Ron Nix.
		Ron, the thing about Ron Nix is he's not using any of these programs.
		That's correct.
		You've been just looking at the raw data.
unidentified		I've been looking at frame 80881.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		80881.
		All right.
		That's right.
		Ron, you had a reaction, I think, to the prior hour with David Oates.
unidentified		I believe a direct quote would be, I'm flabbergasted.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What flabbergasted you?
unidentified		The correlation with what he's seeing and what we are seeing.
		Even though, like I say, I'm very reticent to ascribe words to things that are loaded words.
		You know, when you're in a public forum, you do the best you can to be as generic as you can, to explain a feature just as what it looks like.
		You have to have some word to describe it.
		Try to find one that's not loaded.
		There are many things that David John Oates discussed or pointed out in those reversals that do appear on these images, just like he said.
		It's incredible.
		I mean, the correlation between what he's saying and what Richard and I have been discussing for weeks and weeks now is astounding that it's independent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've got several people here who have gone up and looked at the image that I find very curious, frankly.
		I honestly find it very curious.
		The one that you call the gyroscope or the generator or the motor or whatever.
		Yeah, I find that astounding.
		But several people have gone up and looked and said, all I see is a rock.
		What do you say to those people?
		I mean, how do you tell them to look at this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, this is why there are people who go into certain disciplines and people who, you know, go into storm windows.
		And not everybody sees everything the same way.
		That's what makes diversity.
		We have 6 billion people.
		We live in a consensus reality.
		A lot of times, when you look at a scene, you are not seeing it yourself.
		You're seeing it through other people's eyes.
		You're seeing it through experience.
		You're seeing it through the traumas of your life.
		That's why I turn to people like Ron, because Ron makes a living and has made a living for 35 years in looking at scenery and understanding the underlying backbone, what the landscape really is trying to show him.
unidentified		One of the things that geologists, why geologists might tend to see something like this, where someone else may not readily see it immediately.
		One thing that we have to do is to take two-dimensional information, if you will, and construct three-dimensional images in our mind.
		We come up, we take a cross-section, a map, we try to make a block diagram, if you will, of what's under the ground.
		We try to see things in a perspective and in a three-dimensional sense.
		And you're trained to do that normally.
		And you practice doing that.
		And then it becomes natural after you're in the business for a while.
		You see things.
		You'll see a line going across the landscape and you'll understand that the line really isn't wiggling up and down.
		It's only from your perspective that it is.
		But if you stand along the strike of a particular ridge and look down the strike, it's a perfectly straight line.
		But if it's in an eroded surface, it goes up and down hills, and if it's tilted.
		So we learn to recognize those sorts of things.
		So it might be a little easier for somebody with that type of training to recognize something like that sooner.
		I would suggest to anyone who's having difficulty seeing something like that.
		Also, Richard briefly mentioned it.
		Something that's important is, had you never seen a motor in your life, a heavy steel-cased motor, you would have a tough time recognizing one if it was sitting on your porch.
		It's based on past experience, having seen things that look like this, okay?
		But I would suggest to someone having difficulty, try to imagine something in perspective.
		What you're looking at, obviously, is not flat.
		It's a picture that's flat, but it's a two-dimensional depiction of a three-dimensional object.
		Sure.
		And that is hard to get used to.
		You have to use shadows to get used to, you know, understand where sun angles are coming from so that you know what area would be a little lighter at what edge, if you will, or what face would be lighter if it had several faces and which one would be a little bit darker and maybe one that would be very black if it was totally in shadow.
		Those sorts of things, after you do this for a long time, they become very natural to begin to be able to view these things in three dimensions.
		Whereas someone who simply looks at the Rhodogravier to see what Aunt Hattie had on last Easter, you may not be looking in three dimensions because all of the items are so recognizable to you.
		And you immediately assume what you're seeing is clearly what it is.
		But when you try to force yourself into a three-dimensional mode on a two-dimensional object and try to understand what happens with perspective, and this is further complicated by the fact that some of these images are taken through, if you will, lenses that distort things greatly, like fisheye lenses, you know, wide-angle types of lenses.
		So you have to consider all these things when you look at them.
		All of that said, when I look at these things, and when I think many other people look at them, they don't look like rocks.
		Sure, they're gray like the other stuff and various shades of gray, but take a look at the patterns on these things.
		There's radial patterns that are mixed in with orthogonal patterns.
		And you don't usually get a mishmash of geometries and symmetries in a single object unless it's something, at least the terrestrial analog is, unless it's something that's manufactured.
		I mean, look at a car.
		You've got rectangles.
		You've got smooth edges.
		You've got sharp edges.
		You've got round things.
		You've got cylindrical things.
		You've got conical stuff.
		You've got all kinds of symmetries and geometries mashed into something and all used for some particular benefit.
		But it's humans that do that.
		Nature, like a honeycomb.
		You don't find honeycombs in the shape of a pyramid.
		Honeycombs are each individual cell has its own particular shape.
		And the cells, when they're all mashed together, if you don't put them in a hive, they just kind of make a sort of an irregular shape.
		They don't make a nice cube or anything, but what do we do?
		We take honeycombs and put them into cubes.
		You know, we put them into rectangles and into flats.
		And so the bees march to our symmetry and sense of geometry.
		Humans tend to use these various geometries and symmetries in such a way as to take the maximum benefit from each of them with a single object.
		That's what we're seeing in some of these objects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you shown these photographs to any of your colleagues?
unidentified		I have.
		I have shown it to a couple of people that I know fairly well and that I just asked them to take a look at these things and they were similarly astounded.
		They say, my gosh, you know, it looks like a motor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard?
		I'm going to ask you a question that a lot of people have asked or that NASA has responded with.
		When they're questioned about Sidonia, the possibility of artifacts that are manufactured, all the rest of it, NASA generally says, my God, if we could only find something like that, that would be wonderful.
		We would announce it immediately.
		We'd have a giant budget.
		We'd have a manned project to Mars in two shakes of a lamb's tail, all the rest of it.
		So then, why would NASA be hiding this instead of announcing it screeching from the rooftops in Pasadena or Houston to get more money?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe there's a higher priority.
		You know, we live in a society where we believe, because we see things on CNN or C-SPAN or we see in the New York Times, that we know everything that's going on.
		And what we have found out from people like Philip Corso and other guests on your program alone is that we live in a dualistic society.
		We live in a world where things are open and above board.
		The trivial stuff, we know so much now about Diana's horrible, tragic death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yet we don't know what's lying right in front of that spacecraft lying on Mars.
		We think we do, but the difference is that one is trivial in the larger scheme of things, and the other goes to the heart of who we are, why we're on this planet, where we've come from, and where we are going.
		And the important things are maintained very closely and have been for the last 50 years since something called the National Security Act passed Congress in 1947.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		apply this give me some understanding of What would be the national security motivation for hiding it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If we just look at national security for a second, why?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, remember, national security is a rubric.
		National security is what the people who frame the act claim it is.
		Everything can be swept under the national security rug.
		It doesn't mean it's national security.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At one level, this is planetary security.
		Remember, we now have, in addition to the photographic data, we have a completely separate, and I've been over backwards to make sure that David Oates was not contaminated by our perspectives on anything.
		So we haven't shown him, until he looked at the web tonight, a frame.
		He has been getting, from the first time that you had him sit down and listen to the tapes from Savage and Villars, he has been getting a consistent refrain of hiding, of duplicity, of lying, of dual agendas, of black projects, of secret weapons, of strange missions, of not being forthcoming.
		Now, that's not coming from Ron or me or the Enterprise mission.
		That's a completely separate take on what people are saying in the Jungian subconscious compared to the objective data, which are the photographs themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, may I ask this of you, Richard, or Ron, both of you really, because it's a good question for both of you, and it is the following.
		If you disregard all of the information that you two have, and you simply look at what NASA has shown us or told us they have, have we found anything on Mars that is an eye-popper, A jawdropper.
		In other words, other than what you gentlemen have, has NASA announced anything that's a jawdropper or have they found rocks?
unidentified		Well, they found, I don't know how far to go in disregarding everything we have.
unidentified		Let's go back to one of the first analyses that surprised them so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, just for a second, disregard what you've got.
		For the sake of the conversation, I have not heard them really announce anything amazing other than Scooby-Doo rock and this rock and that rock.
		Nothing unusual about the rocks.
		I haven't heard them.
unidentified		Oh, no, there's something they'd announced something about the composition of some of the material, SiO2.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember when they did the analysis of Barnacle Bill?
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The first rock right there at the bottom of the little ramp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which, by the way, we're going to show what Barnacle Bill really looks like.
		The analysis of Barnacle Bill, and remember you have separate teams.
		You have an imaging team, you have the X-ray spectrometer team.
		The teams are not necessarily seeing all of each other's data.
		They're seeing summary results.
		So the X-ray guys are looking at data.
		They're looking at curves and graphs and squiggles on a computer, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're not necessarily seeing the imagery that Ron and I are looking at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand all that, but what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		They think they're looking at a rock.
		So they come out to a press conference and they announce that it is the most bizarre rock ever found on Mars.
		It is composed overwhelmingly of, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ron, something that they think is quartz, silicon dioxide.
		In other words, glass.
		And they think of it as quartz because they're not seeing quartz on their grass.
		They're seeing silicon and oxygen in certain percentages.
		And their numbers say that that in a natural mechanism has to mean a natural process in a rock meaning quartz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there, Richard.
		Hold it.
		We'll be right back.
		This is Coast to Coast AM.
unidentified		This is Coast to Coast AM.
		I keep hearing your concerns about my happiness.
		But all the thought you've given me is conscious I guess.
		If I was walking in your shoes, I wouldn't wear it now.
		For you and your friends who worried about me out, having lots of fun.
		Galloping flowers on the wall.
		That don't bother me at all.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, once again, yes, I am here.
		Good morning, everybody.
		It is great to be here.
		Ron Nix and Richard C. Hoagland are my guests, and they will be back in a moment, and we'll have it explain to us what is so special about courts.
		I always thought courts in Iraq was a fairly common occurrence.
		So we'll see what we can find out about that in a moment as they come back.
		Hearing this country reminds me to remind you tomorrow night at the beginning of program, hour one, Merle Haggard.
		That's tomorrow night, five.
		Now, back to Ron Nix and Richard C. Hoagland.
		Gentlemen, quartz doesn't surprise me.
		What is unusual about quartz, I thought that was a very common element in rocks.
unidentified		It is a common.
unidentified		It's a common element, but it's also what makes up glass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And the problem is...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the problem is the kind of rock that they're assuming has to exist there cannot exist on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because Mars didn't differentiate.
		It didn't go through the same geological evolution that the Earth did.
		And all of the previous geological analyses of samples that we have on Earth that we think are from Mars, like the famous Mars rock announced last year, the snake meteorites, the Viking analysis and all that.
unidentified		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You have that entire database.
		You land at this site and the first sample that you sample has nothing in common with all those other samples.
		It has too much glass to be a normal Mars rock as we have imagined Mars could possibly have existed and evolved.
		However, if it's not a rock, but a chunk of broken computer or a piece of window pane, or you see what I mean?
		Then the fractionation...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mars, at one time they believe, had an atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So why is the geologic development of Mars so very different that it could not have generated a rock with a lot of silica?
unidentified		Well, we don't know that I know of any plate tectonics, of the crystal silica melts like you would have in plutonic rocks and what have you.
		We have volcanism, hugest volcano that we know of, I believe, in our solar system, Lepis Mons.
		It's an incredible feature.
		But it's volcanic rocks.
		There is volcanic glass.
		There is that.
		But that's not what we're seeing in this terrain.
		Why in this terrain?
		Also, remember now, you have to start putting everything together.
		We look over at a hill, and one of the first thoughts was, see, that's sedimentary rocks.
		Well, what kind of, you can get sandstones like that that might be made out of quartz, and you have a lot of blocks there, but the geology, the petrology of the planet isn't, we didn't really think it was like that of Earth.
		Well, there's no continental drift that we know of occurring.
		We don't have these huge fault sutures and these thrust block mountains that we have on this planet.
		So at least we don't think we do.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From everything that the last 20 years, from Viking to now, have given us of Mars, together with the samples we think we got from Mars on Earth, the meteorites, it says Mars is primitive, Mars is simple, Mars is nowhere near as complex geologically as the Earth.
		The kind of rock that Barnacle Bill is supposed to be is the kind of complex, highly processed rock that you'd find on Earth, not on Mars.
		Now, the way out of the conundrum, out of the problem is it's not a rock at all.
		It's a manufactured piece of ancient hardware that's been deteriorating, which was melted in some kiln and put together as some device and has been lying there for God knows how long.
		And this little x-ray guy comes down and puts the sample on it and does a spectrum and basically is measuring a piece of stuff you'd find in New York City.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how then do they explain it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because the guys who are measuring it think it's a rock.
		And they are calling it an andesite, which is a curtain found in the Andes Mountains in Peru, where it got its name, that is what is called highly differentiated, meaning it cooked and cooked and cooked downstairs, deep underground, many, many, many miles below the surface of the Earth on Earth, and was eventually belched up as a rock, a metamorphic rock from some volcano.
		But there ain't no such process that we know of on Mars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, that's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how do they explain the presence of that rock then on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They just don't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They kind of arm wave and say, oh, my God.
unidentified		It's not addressed.
		It's just, well, this is interesting.
		We've got a lot of silica.
		It's not publicly that I know of.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right, what they're now finding, by the way, that they're announcing publicly, remember that we're getting filter data here.
		If the pictures are fake, how do we know that the other stuff is not tweaked and fake?
		But let's assume for a moment it's not.
		They say we've got two basic rock types.
		We've got basic basalt, which is the kind of primitive rock that we would expect on Mars.
		And then we've got this weird, high silicon, oxygen, granite type rock that doesn't belong anywhere on Mars.
		And so if you say that the basaltic rocks are really rock and were blown downstream from this vast flood, I mean, we're sitting in a valley, in a whatever, from an ancient flood.
		But mixed in with the rocks is other stuff.
		And it's the other stuff that we think is geometric and is manufactured and is the remains of an ancient city.
		And it's like you were to go to any place.
		I mean, in the Midwest, around the Mississippi, a couple years ago, you could have found the same kind of stuff.
		The bottoms of factories swept away by the floods, the raging Mississippi, leaving just their foundations.
		And if you'd come back in a thousand years and measure them with some robotic device from another planet, and you've been relaying the photographs and the spectra to some home world, you would have gotten basically the same kind of reading.
unidentified		Strange concentrations of things.
		You asked the question, Ark, well, what's being said?
		Well, I don't know of anything, though I've been concentrating pretty much on these images.
		There may be something out there.
		But what's being said about this high silicon dioxide content?
		I don't know of anything right now.
		I don't think much.
		But there's another example of the same sort of thing.
		We still have the same questions that were posed with regard to the Twin Peaks.
		At first, it was like, well, gee, they kind of look like sedimentary rocks, like the beds you might see in the Grand Canyon.
		True, it did kind of look like that.
		Then it was, well, it looks like a debris pile.
		Well, but then it was, well, now these lineations along the side of it looks like the strand line that you have for various boulders and things from a retreating flood.
		Well, what more have you heard about that?
		What's the resolution of that?
		There isn't any.
		There's just no talk about it.
		And we just continue to put up pictures.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's gone away.
unidentified		Yeah, there's no resolution to it.
		Those were questions that I had raised, that I hadn't raised.
		Those were things that they themselves were discussing in their press conferences.
		So what's the answer?
		There is no answer.
		And you get, well, we're going to have to look at that more closely.
		Well, I would hope so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I suppose if you were to send them the images that Richard has on the website this morning, you'd probably get an answer like that back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have to study this more closely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, there'll be hoots and laughs and hollers and shirts.
		But the beauty of this is that these are images that we've compared from the original live downlink stuff that came through the networks.
		There are lots of people out there tonight with computers, with VCRs, who recorded this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What we're going to do is...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All you have to do, in fact, the very night that it was coming in, John Holloman, my dear friend John Holloman, made comment over the air with Story Musgrave as his guest while they were waiting for the second download of pictures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He said, you know, we're getting a lot of calls here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		People are seeing all kinds of geometric things and sharp angular rocks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		How do you get sharp angular rocks on Mars?
		And of course, Musgrave, who is not a geologist, kind of did an arm-waving kind of thing because he presumed, as everyone presumed, as I presumed looking at those first images, that they were rocks.
		But they had to be rocks, of course.
		If we're on Mars, they have to be rocks.
		But in thoughtful later analyses, in comparing the data sets, in bringing the tools that we now have, we have found a very different picture and stunningly correlative to what David John Oates has found from a completely different perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Completely different discipline.
		That's true.
		And you're going to be wrapping all this up and presenting all of this a lot more than you've got on the website.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm holding all the neat stuff back.
		You don't think I want to, you know, lay it all out at once.
		You know me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know you are right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so this will be give everybody the info again, if you would.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we are going to be at the Double Tree Inn the night that Pathfinder goes into, not Pathfinder, but the Mars Surveyor goes into orbit around Mars.
		And if you want, I'm missing my number.
		Do you have that number handy?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I do.
		It's area code 818-952.
		4195, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's an information line.
		If you want to help us by volunteering to kind of put people in their chairs and give them programs and copies of photographs and stuff like that, we'd certainly use some help.
		If you would like to take our press release and put it up on some other website, just go to our Bell's website or the Enterprise Mission, www.enterprismission.com, and it's there.
		And I just sent Keith the howitzer picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you did?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The howitzer picture.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I swear, and I've got a comparison side by side, so you can see what a real howitzer looks like.
		And if it don't look like...
		Now, Ron is very leery of me giving these things names.
		But since the other guys have been calling things Scooby Doo and Fluffer Duffer and whatever, which of course one could...
		Why not?
		It looks like it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least your names don't come from cartoons.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that could be a code.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you look at the entire panorama, which we'll lay out on Thursday night, the naming of various features, there's one little feature right next to the lander, which they have named appropriately Cardiac Hill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cardiac Hill.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And just above that, there's another quote rock that, for some reason, amid the Scooby-Doos and the Yogis and the Lambs, they've named Indiana Jones.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indiana Jones.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, what in the world is Indiana Jones doing on Mars?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You don't think that someone's trying to tell us something between the lines, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		Maybe looking for the lost ark.
		I have no idea.
		But that is strange, Richard.
		I'll give you that.
		Why Indiana Jones, of all things?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is only the beginning of the story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they taunting us?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I think this is a cry for help.
		I really think that we have a lot of very serious scientists who had no idea what they were getting into, and they have been told by those in higher authority they are to sit on this, the most important, stunning discovery.
		And like Lloyd Booker on the Pueblo in the North Korean harbor when they were forced to do their TV stints and basically admit that they were spies, they are telling us it is all a cartoon between the lines, and please follow the cut lines because that's where the data lies.
		And that's what we have done.
		And we have some astonishing surprises.
		We have just begun this discussion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, if it is this clear and this astonishing, then there are geologists, not high-level types at NASA, but geologists who work with NASA, I'm sure, or even who don't work for NASA, who should have seen this also.
unidentified		I'm not sure they haven't.
unidentified		I mean, well, who's to say they haven't?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the problem is, where is their paycheck?
		Look, we live in a society, Art, where people will not rock the boat because the last and first thing is job security.
		What was the big discussion during the UPS strike?
		All right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Job security.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Job security and the fact that jobs are disappearing.
		Good jobs are disappearing.
		Part-time jobs are being put in in place of full-time jobs.
		And that, you know, I know an awful lot of PhDs driving cabs, you know, after the fall of Apollo and after retrenchments in the DOD.
		So if you've got a good, cushy, high-paying job with NASA, are you going to blow the whistle out loud?
		Come on.
		What planet do you live on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about geologists outside NASA?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's our saving grace.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And so Ron has something.
unidentified		There are some, and they are looking, and they are seeing things.
unidentified		And I would ask for more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Why don't we do that?
		If there are other geologists out there willing to take a dispassionate, professional look at what you're seeing, Ron, as a geologist, how do we have them proceed?
		Because that seems to me to be the next best bet for you folks.
unidentified		Have them contact me through the webpage.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What they do is they email through Enterprise Mission, and Keith will forward them over to a special box we set up for Ron.
		Or they can fax to Ron, care of Enterprise, which is 505-771-0820.
		Or they could even call here at Enterprise.
		Let's see, the number would be 771-090694.
		771-0694.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In what area, Twitter?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		505.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So give the whole number then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		505.
unidentified		505.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		771-0694.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you'd be willing to accept any qualified geologist who would be willing to look dispassionately at what you've got?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we already have several independent geologists, some of whom are going to be on site on Thursday night to provide their own opinions.
		We would like more.
		And the reason I say independent is because, unfortunately, we have now arrived at a situation where, because of this thing of job security and the fact that the federal government is the primary employer of geologists, unless it's the oil companies, there basically is no other venue for scientists who would be, shall we say, a dissident voice, which is a very sad commentary on science.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is I wish you both a lot of luck.
		I think it's going to be a very interesting event, very interesting indeed.
		And I hope some of the press shows up as well.
		Would you want them to, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so the general press is invited.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And we're sending out releases with a couple of photos so that they can see what we have to show.
		And again, they're all going to be gathered just up the street at JPL, and there'll be plenty of time to go from that party down, even if they just want to laugh at us, if they see the data, if they want to see the photographs, they will be intrigued because what is there is so easily checkable by simply rearranging what NASA has on its own website on this particular frame.
		80881.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Got you.
		Ron, thank you very much.
		Good luck with the event.
		Ditto, Richard, thank you.
		And for both of you, until next time, a good night.
unidentified		Thank you, Eric.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That was Richard C. Hoglund.
		And, of course, Ron Nicks, the geologist.
		And you can take a look.
		And now you can take a look at the howitzer.
		Richard has named it the howitzer, which apparently is going to be on the website shortly.
		Speaking of the website, the photographs from my Alaskan vacation are up there to be seen, and they're quite good.
		I've always wanted to snuggle up to a Blackhawk.
		Remarkable systems on that helicopter.
		I'll have more things to say about that in days to come.
		Want to remind you, tomorrow night, Merle Haggard will be here.
		That should be interesting.
		We will do many other things as well.
		I also want to remind you, you can now get my book, The Quickening, which is selling like crazy and getting close to the bestseller list, I'm proud to say, happy to say, amazed to say, that is from my publisher, by the way, and you can get it nationwide.
		It is called The Quickening.
		And it has never been more relevant than it is today.
		As a matter of fact, in a lot of ways, I am very sorry to say that what I wrote then is more relevant today than the day that I wrote it and is unfortunately going to be more relevant tomorrow.
		So if you have not yet had an opportunity to read it, I recommend it to you.
		Just about any bookstore nationally, but specifically all Barnes and Noble bookstores, including Barnes and Noble Superstores, Bookstar, Bookstop, B. Dalton, All Borders Books, and Music Stores, Walden Books.
		You get the idea.
		Pretty much anywhere nationwide now.
		Again, it is called The Quickening.
		And I am very proud of it.
		And it is an important book.
		So if you get the opportunity, please, by all means, drop by one of those bookstores.
		If they don't have it, order it.
		The Quickening by Art Bell.
		And I guess that's about it for tonight.
		We covered early in the program quite a bit of discussion about Princess Dy's very untimely and tragic death.
		There will be more to that, I'm sure, as the days wear on, as one of the witnesses regains consciousness, and as we learn more.
		In the meantime, I would caution everybody to not jump to too many conclusions because that's all the media seems to be doing right now with regard to this story, is jumping to conclusions.
		First, the paparazzi, now the driver.
		And while I think the information is scientific and significant regarding the driver, I don't think we know it all yet.
		And until we do, well, you get the idea.
		To all, a good night.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast A.M. See you tomorrow night.

▲