Art Bell

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Aug. 10, 1997 - Art Bell

02:02:26

Dreamland with Art Bell - Bud Hopkins - Abductions

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27:15

budd hopkins

01:05:34

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00:36

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		Another Sunday night, Dreamland underway.
		Good evening, everybody.
		I'm Arn Bell.
		As usual, Linda Moulton Howe, investigator, Emmy Award-winning documentary producer, and general scientific reporter for this program, coming up in just a moment.
		Then, of course, Bud Hopkins, toward the bottom of the hour, author of Intruders, Witness, Missing Time, Millions of Books Sold.
		You should know Bud Hopkins.
		If not, you will shortly.
		You might want to set your VCR beginning in about 52 minutes.
		There's going to be a program on TBS, WTBS, called Topics.
		And I think you'll find this radio program is covered in that program.
		It's a one-hour program on TBS beginning in a little less than an hour.
		Once you've experienced the spectacular benefits of GMX magnetic water conditioning, you may want to go into business for yourself.
		And Larry and Ruthie can help you.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		Tell them Art Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		All right, from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, with a very, very serious report this evening regarding the ongoing fisteria problem and more, here is Linda Maltenhow.
		Linda, welcome to the program.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Hi.
		Well, the fish kills by the Fisteria dinoflagellate organism that I've been reporting about this summer in North Carolina have now apparently extended to the Pocomoke River in Maryland, which, if you'll recall, last week and the week before when I was interviewing Dr. Joanne Burkholder and others, they were afraid that this was going to happen.
		Millions of fish have been dying in North Carolina rivers over the last three weeks, and now last Wednesday and Thursday in Maryland, thousands of dead fish with bleeding round lesions were found along a five-mile stretch of the lower Pocomoke River near Shelltown, Maryland.
		Officials closed the Maryland waterway to swimmers and fishermen and have gathered fish and water samples to send to Dr. Joanne Burkholder in North Carolina and another research lab in Florida.
		Ten people who recently swam or fished in the Pocomoke have reported flu-like symptoms and open lesions on their bodies.
		The fisterio organism has also been identified in Virginia rivers and officials in that state have been asked to close the extreme eastern side of the river near the Pocomoke Sound in Virginia.
		And I'm going to keep updating that story, but my feature story tonight is the mystery of a tall primate looking creature reported by several people near Ochipee, Florida in the Big Cypress National Preserve in the Everglades at the end half of July.
		This is in an area near Ochipee, Florida in what is called the Big Cypress National Preserve.
		It's a big swampy area, as people who've been there know.
		And one witness who actually took a photograph of the Bigfoot creature was Vince Dorr.
		He's a respected fire chief in Ochipee.
		He's worked there for 20 years.
		Mr. Dorr's photograph can be seen on the Naples Daily News internet website at www.naplesnews.com.
		It is a blow-up from his long photograph.
		He did a zoom on this creature.
		Now, Mr. Doar, like many other eyewitnesses, prefers to caution that the sighting could be someone dressed up in a gorilla costume.
		However, when you listen to what the eyewitnesses say, it's hard to imagine anyone being able to survive such a costume in 100-degree heat and three feet of swamp water all day with mosquitoes for several days in July.
		One of the tour guide eyewitnesses was Steve Goodbread, who works for Pelican Tours in the Everglades.
		Around the same day in July that Vince Dorr took his photograph, Steve had 12 tourists in his van on Turner River Road at about 2.15 in the afternoon when the tourists spotted a tall primate creature.
		This is Steve Goodbread.
		The people that were on the tour just happened to say, well, what's that?
		And I'm looking somewhere else.
		I said, what does it look like?
		I can't.
		And there's 12 sets of eyes looking all different directions.
		Okay.
		I said, well, this is something big and black.
		I said, well, it's probably a bear.
		We do have black bear down here, and I'm going to tell them about black bears.
		They get to be about 250 pounds and whatever.
		And a few seconds of eyes, they're like, you got real hysterical.
		No, no, no.
		What is that?
		It doesn't look like a bear.
		So I kind of try to get a better look.
		But I was looking across the canal and through the bushes of this thing where some of the other tour guides actually got to see it on their side of the road.
		Today I thought it was not in clear view with me.
		And I couldn't really tell what it was.
		I couldn't tell if it was looking at me or looking away or whatever.
		I wasn't that close, but I just knew it was big, black.
		It seemed to be hairy and seemed to be sitting up on its two legs.
		But I couldn't tell what size it was because looking through the trees, it appeared to be something around six foot tall.
		And I can probably say it definitely was not a bear.
		It didn't have movement like a bear.
		How did it move?
		More or less side to side.
		It wasn't, I couldn't see it really take steps and walk, but it was moving back and forth through the bushes.
		There was a little bit of a clearing.
		We could kind of make out something a little bit, but most of the time it was behind enough bushes where I couldn't see the whole thing.
		And how long was it in view?
		We probably sat there, or probably it seemed like forever, but probably five minutes.
		Okay.
		And in those five minutes, did anybody in the group try to go closer?
		Well, I couldn't get anybody to get out of the van.
		I didn't have the camera with me.
		And the people that were there had a camera.
		And I tried to get them to either open the door or step out and get a photograph.
		They wouldn't do it.
		And then when I went to open my door, they all screamed at me, don't open the door, don't open the door.
		And they were all terrified, I guess.
		But nobody, nobody, we would have had to cross the canal.
		There was no, where we were, there was no bridge.
		There was nothing, no way to cross.
	So there wouldn't have been any way to get any closer.
	And northern, you know, when you see something, you don't know what it is, the best thing to do is not to go closer.
	Well, you've been in this country for 42 years of your life.
	Intuitively, at your gut level, did you feel that you were looking at something that was some sort of a separate kind of creature?
	When I was initially sitting there, I was in awe of what was over there.
	I didn't think about it being something phony.
	It didn't appear to be phony.
	It appeared to be something over there.
	Something I couldn't explain.
	And I was, you know, I was just as much an awe as everybody else.
	And I was kind of sneaking over there, trying to figure out what it was.
	And, you know, I guess if I would have thought about it being somebody over there trying to play a prank, I might have tried to get over there and stop it.
	You know, because I don't want my tour operations to get in any type of a deal like that.
	Nor do I want anybody else down there playing jokes on it that are going down there.
	But, you know, my intuition was that it was real.
	Okay.
	Whatever it was.
	Another tour guide, Dal Rowland of Everglade Gay Safari, had four adults and two boys in his van when they saw a primate creature three times.
	Dal Rowland.
	The eight-year-old shouts, Bigfoot, Bigfoot.
	I guess he'd seen on TV or something.
	Anyhow, we turned and looked the direction he was looking.
	And about 100 yards up the road, at the edge of the brush, out there, outside, next to the road, was Bigfoot.
	And that's what it looked like.
	What were you seeing in terms of height and color and so forth?
	Well, it was very, at that distance, it was a very dark, hairy creature, around six feet tall.
	Could it have been seven or eight feet tall?
	Okay.
	So from your perspective, it was about six feet tall.
	And was it standing, moving?
	It was standing, looking in our direction, then it looked in the opposite direction, and it looked at us again, and then ran into the swamp.
	And when it ran, how did it run?
	Kind of lope or long gait.
	And when it turned to you a couple of times, could you see anything about its eyes or facial features?
	No.
	But we drove further up the road to get closer to it because by this time I wanted to be sure of what I was looking at and the people did and so forth.
	So we drove on up about half the distance in and then came out again at about 150 feet.
	And this time I could see the face and the front of the body, the back.
	Turned around.
	The hair was long, dark brown hair, very full hair on the head, the neck, the arms, even hanging down from the arms.
	And the chest was covered with hair.
	The face seemed to be clear, and it looked like a gorilla.
	And about how long do you think the seven of you got to see it total front?
	Probably three or four seconds.
	Well, that's a good long time.
	And then what did it do then?
	It turned around and went back into the swamp.
	And did you get out and look to see if there were tracks there?
	I drove up to where it went into the swamp, took out my camera.
	By this time, I had forgot about the camera, looking at the creature, of course.
	When you're surprised like that, you don't do what you would expect you might do.
	Anyhow, I got out of the vehicle and went into the swamp where he had gone with my camera.
	I have a 300-millimeter lens on a Nikon.
	And I couldn't see it.
	And I didn't see any tracks.
	It was real brushy.
	And I stood around in the swamp for a little bit, hoping to get a shot of it with the camera.
	And the mosquitoes were so bad, I just couldn't bear it.
	So I got out of there.
	And got back in the van and waited a while.
	Nothing happened.
	It didn't come back out.
	And I drove off.
	And I got up the road about a quarter of a mile, looked in the rearview mirror, and there it was again.
	Standing alongside the road.
	Then the end of July, David Shealy, owner of the Florida Panther Gift Shop in Big Cypress Trail Lakes Campground, found two large 13 and a half inch long primate-looking tracks and made plaster-appearous casts of them.
	And he found a chunk of reddish-brown hair on a tree.
	He talked about these discoveries on a Fort Myers, Florida radio station around July 29th.
	This is what David Sheeley in Ochipee, Florida, said happened next.
	I came home from a radio station, this one in Fort Myers, and it's about 9.30 at night.
	I'm sitting in my house.
	I get a knock on my door, and there's two guys standing.
	They're dressed in black, and it's dark, and they got on sunglasses, and I'm thinking, oh my God, what's going on?
	Normally out here, it's either a friend or somebody who's in trouble, but I knew this was different.
	They came in, they asked my name, they came into my house, they pulled out some kind of ID, and they said they were there to get the tracks and the hair.
	Well, I had left the tracks in my truck, and it was raining, and I didn't tell them that, but they said, well, what about the hair?
	Well, I look over at the table because the hair is sitting there in the open, and then they look over at it, and I said, well, it's right here.
	I mean, it was too late by then.
	And then the one pulls open his jacket, grabs the hair out of my hand, pulls open his jacket.
	When he opens his jacket, I notice he's got on a big, like a belt with all kinds of bullets and clips and stuff.
	I'm not saying he had bullets.
	I'm saying it looked like it.
	There were like canisters on his belt.
	Definitely armed in some way.
	He was equipped.
	I don't know if you'd call it armed or not.
	He was equipped.
	And as he opened up his jacket and took the hair, what did he do with the hair?
	About halfway from his waist to his underarm, inside of his jacket, he had a long slip, and it was like a pocket.
	And it kind of just fell open when he opened his jacket and he stuck it right in that pocket.
	Okay.
	And then what happened?
	What was said?
	They said, we're going to have this analyzed, and then we're going to come back and talk to you.
	And then they just turned around and walked out of my house.
	Did you go to the door to see what kind of vehicle they might have gotten in?
	I saw exactly what kind of car they were driving.
	After I heard them go out, I heard the car door close, I stuck my head out the door and looked.
	And it was a black Lexus or Mercedes, kind of a sporty-looking car.
	And what was unusual about it was it had like a long, like a CB whip, the kind of big antenna with a spring on it attached to the bumper.
	And it was pulled over the tab of the car and appeared to be like tied on the front bumper or something.
	Okay, did the men who showed you the ID, when you looked at the ID, did you recognize any of the words on it in terms of an agency?
	It all looked official to me.
	One of the one had like a badge in his wallet and the other one had a card.
	And up in the left-hand corner, there was a red square.
	How big was the square?
	I'm sorry, it wasn't the left-hand corner, it was the right-hand corner.
	Okay, how big was the square, and what color would it be compared to something I might know?
	Right red.
	Like a tomato?
	Yeah.
	And how big would that red square be?
	I would imagine it was anywhere, it was about a half an inch square.
	One half inch square.
	Now, what else was on that card?
	It was a picture.
	It was a picture of a guy, but the guy in the picture didn't have on glasses.
	And it had some writing underneath of it, some writing underneath of it.
	And there may have been some kind of seal, like kind of in it somehow, some kind of like a seal with a picture kind of on the seal.
	Did either one of them say to you as they showed you identification, we are from?
	No.
	They said that they had questions they wanted to ask me.
	Well, that's not the end of it because about three days after that happened, they got all these helicopters flying around here at 3 o'clock in the morning over where the sightings were.
	And they hovered in one spot behind my campground for 45 minutes with their lights on the ground.
	Would you please go back to the night of Friday, August 1st?
	Start with exactly what started, how it happened.
	Tell me everything that you saw and heard.
	12 o'clock at night.
	Midnight.
	Midnight.
	I'm laying in bed, and I started hearing choppers at a distance.
	Well, that's not unusual really to hear a chopper, but it's unusual to hear one flying low.
	And I knew it was flying low because I could hear the blades ricocheting off of the swamp.
	Like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
	Like that.
	So about 2 o'clock, I tried to go back to sleep, but it just kept getting louder and louder.
	Well, when I went and looked at my yard, I could see that it was probably between six or eight helicopters a mile and a half north of my campground in the area where they had been having these sightings.
	It's Bigfoot Creek here.
	So I watched for a little bit, and I went back inside.
	All I could see were lights moving around, like spotlights, searchlights.
	So I lay back down, and they keep getting closer, and the next thing I know, they were north of me.
	Then they're down further in the swamp to the east of me.
	And at 3 o'clock, they were south of my place, about a mile and a half.
	And at that point, at 3 o'clock, when I walked out on my back porch and looked out there, all of a sudden they all came together and they put their lights down on the ground and they hovered.
	And I figured they had spotted something.
	But they hovered there.
	It was incredible.
	They hovered stationary for 45 minutes.
	And Artie, I asked him what happened.
	He said that the helicopters then cut off their searchlights, flew away in the distance.
	And I asked him if he was able to go to that area where they converged.
	He said it is impossible.
	It's all government property.
	The government has restricted the use of airboats even there.
	The only way people can get in is to walk, and there's three feet of water, and nobody can get there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, we'll get some information out in a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My God.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bigfoot, men in black, and helicopters.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hang tight.
		We'll be right back From the high desert, an area near Dreamland.
		This is Dreamland: the talk station,
		AM 1500 KSTP from the Kingdom of Nine.
unidentified		We continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the Wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 Area Code.
		Now again, here's Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		That's got to be a classic, absolute classic.
		A Bigfoot, a photograph.
		And by the way, Keith is looking now through the Naples News website, and we're going to see if we can get a link to it, ASAP.
		Bigfoot, all kinds of witnesses, men in black helicopters, a real classic, Linda.
unidentified		Yep.
		This is really an extraordinary story from that standpoint.
		And I'm curious if any of our listeners who may have either current employment in intelligence agencies or have had past employment, does anyone recognize any kind of an ID that would have a half-inch square that was a solid tomato red in the upper right-hand corner?
		I'd like to know if anybody would.
		And if they do, could you please fax me information?
		I don't need to use names.
		I just am curious if anybody has information.
		To Lynda Howe at Area Code 215-491-9842.
		Again, my fax is 215-491-9842.
		And for people who would prefer to correspond with me, it is Linda Howe, H-O-W-E, at Post Office Box 300, Jamison, J-A-M-I-S-O-N, Pennsylvania, abbreviated P-A.
		And the zip code is 1-8929.
		And I also have had letters inquiring from people who had heard me talk on Coast to Coast a few weeks ago about the remaining Glimpses of Other Realities, Volume 1, that I have, that is still 300 images, mostly in four color, and that future editions may have to be more in black and white for cost.
		And I would just like to let our Dreamland listeners know I am willing to autograph these books that do have the 300 images, mostly in color, glimpses, volume one.
		If you will also fax me at 215-491-9842 or write me at the post office box, 300 in Jameson, Pennsylvania, 1-8929, and I will send you information about how to order those books.
		And for the rest of my documentaries and my other book, An Alien Harvest, there's also a credit card number, 800-864-7991.
		And Art, I feel that the mysteries are enchanting to us to try to understand, but I am so concerned about what is happening in the world around us from hysteria to fish kills to the fact that we may actually be pushing sharks and other fish in the seas into extinction.
		And I will be doing a story about that in upcoming Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, look for it.
		Linda, thank you very much.
		Next week from Philadelphia.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Linda Moulton Howe in Philadelphia.
		And coming up in a moment, Bud Hopkins.
		You know Bud Hopkins.
		You certainly ought to know Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Intruders.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Missing Time.
unidentified		Witness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nova.
		We'll get to Bud in a moment.
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		Remember, leave your name and address at that number, 1-800-522-8863.
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		You've got nothing to lose but the fact.
		All right, I said half-injest, NOVA, when I mentioned the various things that Bud has done or has been, things that have been done to Bud Hopkins, who's coming up in just a moment.
		I had a very similar occurrence, and it's going to launch this discussion, I suspect, about the media, about debunking and all the rest of it.
		There's a fellow named Cal Korth, K-O-R-F-F, who went on another syndicated radio program, had a lot to say about me, but It was utterly and totally false and slanderous.
		And we have brought closure to that matter, and we have done so in the following way.
		This occurred Thursday night, Friday morning, I think it was, on Coast, and I want you to hear what occurred.
		Here it is.
		All right.
		For those of you not familiar with what is to follow, you may check my website, and you will find audio files of the words said by Mr. Cal Corf on the Sightings Program, a syndicated radio program that can be heard.
		I pretty well covered it last night, and as you know, I was very, very angry.
		I believe that we have with us tonight Mr. Cal Corf.
		Cal, are you there?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Cal, I was really, really angry at you last night.
		My anger is somewhat abated at this moment, but I believe you've got something you want to say.
unidentified		Yes.
		Everything I said about Mr. Art Bell was completely untrue and false.
		I retract everything entirely and further apologize to not only Mr. Bell, but the CBC Radio Network and the affiliates mentioned, KFYI in Phoenix, Como, and KBI in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So your words about me and what I allegedly said were totally false.
unidentified		Yes, there's no evidence at all.
unidentified		None of it held up, and you deserve an apology, Mr. Belfast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		I want to say something to you, and it is the following.
		Words, Mr. Corf, really do have consequences in ufology.
		Something we're both interested in.
		We've got room for all sorts of people, believers, skeptics, even debunkers like yourself.
		However, if the goal of our debate is the truth, then the reckless disregard for it harms all of us.
		So please, I would only ask this.
		The next time you decide to debate the statements of something you call facts, make damn sure that you know them to be facts and not slanderous lies.
		This method generally effectively prevents embarrassing retractions of the sort you just had to make.
		I really do wish you luck in your future endeavors.
		All right.
		And that was it.
		And that effectively for now ends it.
		There was a very, very similar situation that developed between Bud Hopkins and ANOVA program.
		Bud, welcome to the program.
		Glad to be with you, Art.
		It seems like a good moment, Bud.
		We're going to certainly talk a lot about the abduction business tonight.
		But I remember just prior to the airing of ANOVA show, ostensibly they came to you and they were going to do a show, a good one on abductions.
		And it turned out to be something entirely different, something you did not expect.
		You want to tell that story briefly?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the general respect that people have for Nova, of course, led me to feel that I could get at least a fair hearing.
		And when I spoke originally to Denise Diani, who's the producer, I said, I don't expect you to endorse the idea that UFO abductions are literally taking place in the real world, because I know that's not their position.
		But I said, what I do expect, at the very minimum, is for the program to state that there is a mystery, after all of the theories have been expounded upon and applied and so on, that still cases are not explained and a mystery results.
		I said, that's the least.
		And of course, I don't think anyone could look at the phenomenon with any kind of an open mind and not agree with that statement.
		And so that was my understanding.
		I also pointed out that I wanted to stay with cases that hypnosis was not involved in simply because that's the method of choice of attack by the debunkers on the abduction phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		False memory syndrome, that kind of thing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, even though hypnosis is not essential in many cases, and of course, everybody remembers some of it, if not all of it, in various abduction experiences.
		So it's always been a false issue.
		But anyway, I said, let's stay away from that.
		And I was led to believe that this was going to be an objective look, which would admit, finally, that there are some unknowns about the phenomenon.
		Even the Air Force had been in doubt about its sightings years ago.
		But what happened was this was a deliberate attempt to discredit me, and I was being, in effect, set up.
		Now, if you spend, as you know yourself, if you spend two or three days with a television crew, and there is no way that they can't clip and snip and edit and present by their innuendos that they tack on as comments afterwards, that they can't create a completely misleading impression.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this is what they did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hours and days turn into minutes of what they want.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, just a few minutes.
		Now, one of the things which was extremely interesting was I said, let's, why don't you follow me into a new case?
		And I don't know what to make of the case either.
		I just know what has been reported to me.
		And it was a family in Florida.
		And we went down to Florida to look into the case.
		And I met the principals in this family, a man and his wife and two very young children, at the same time that the Nova people met them.
		At any rate, this is the kind of situation that happened.
		The husband described, with the cameras running, how he had been paralyzed at night in the hallway, had fallen to the floor.
		He actually lay down on the floor.
		This man is a very respected mid-level executive at a very big company with a lot at stake to allow himself to be filmed.
		He lay down on the floor in the hallway, showing exactly where he was with the cameras running.
		He showed, he pointed out that there was one small alien standing just behind his head, two to his side.
		At the end of the hall, he could see a couple of more small figures and a little alien floating his four-year-old son out the window.
		He explained how as he was lying there in anguish, trying to move, he was trying to move to break loose, to protect his child, to bang his knee against the wall, because his wife was on the other side of the wall in the bedroom, and couldn't move, and how terrifying and upsetting this was to him.
		Now, this was all straight memory.
		There was no hypnosis or anything.
		All of that footage was suppressed.
		All of it was suppressed.
		It was the most dramatic footage by any possible measurement that occurred in Florida.
		It was suppressed, hidden, censored, eliminated.
		And they asked me to do a hypnotic session with his wife on a completely unrelated case, something from a childhood.
		I did the hypnosis.
		They censored it in such a way to make it look as if I was leading the woman, which I absolutely, there's no possible way to watch the entire session and think that for a second she was being led.
		But of course, this, you know, the way a sentence was broken into, falsely suggesting that sort of thing, a leading issue.
		They only showed her under hypnosis and then described the whole case as something which had emerged only through hypnosis.
		And by suppressing the evidence that the husband had, you know, the filmed account, which is extremely moving, far more interesting than what happened to his wife.
		And of course, the sneering voice said Hopkins listened to her, to their, I don't know, their suggestions and under hypnosis, came to believe that this thing had really happened when obviously it hadn't or something.
		I don't know how they phrased it.
		But anyway, I was made to look like a fool believing something that, of course, from the evidence that they presented, I would have been a fool to believe an abduction had happened based on the evidence that they allowed the audience to see.
		The rest was simply suppressed.
		And I find that as absolutely revolting a way of presenting a phenomenon as one could imagine.
		Totally unscientific, totally immoral.
		I lost all respect for NOVA.
		That was only one little piece.
		One other thing I should mention, Art, is that they were very anxious to get photographs of the particular types of wounds that very often turn up after abduction experiences, the scoop marks or the straight line cuts and so forth.
		I sent them this material, plus many photographs of ground traces, where the soil had been baked down to maybe six or eight inches to a kind of rock-like hardness under the area where the crash had landed, and so on.
		I sent them all this stuff.
		They were very thankful, suppressed all of that, and then announced on the program there was no physical evidence to support any of this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remarkable.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And those are simple, outright lies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I was getting to, bud, and that's what I want to ask you about.
		The Calcorse, the Nova piece, it's on and on and on.
		And we must be getting close to something for people to actually set out to lie.
		Yep.
		That means we're coming close to something.
		And I just, I don't know why it's going on.
		Do you?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have an idea, and that is this.
		The statistics about what people feel about the UFO phenomenon have surfaced in recent polls.
		That's true.
		Even one that I believe was at Time or Newsweek poll that said something like 78% of the American people, as I remember, I might have it off by a couple percentage points, something like 78% believe that the Air Force knows a great deal more about UFOs than it's telling, that it's covering up the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At least that percentage.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's gigantic.
		It's such a vast majority of the population.
		Also, I think the number was 28% of the American people believe we have already made contact with extraterrestrial intelligences.
		Now, if somebody had asked me before that poll, what do you think the number would be on something like that, I'd say, well, maybe I'll be really, I'll go for a high figure, say 10%.
unidentified		Right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		28%, almost a third of the American people believe that we've made contact with extraterrestrial?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I mean, this is staggering.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And 78% believing there is life elsewhere.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yes.
		Well, but I think that the point, this is what it comes down to, is that the forces behind the cover-up and the debunkers and the conservative scientists who have a stake in the status quo, who need their seniority, they need their tenure, they need their government contracts, et cetera, and therefore have to maintain an older paradigm.
		I think those people are realizing that they are losing the war when it comes to public opinion.
		And therefore, I think the rear guard actions that are being fought are getting infinitely more vicious.
		And I can predict, I will predict without any possible hint of doubt about it, that we're going to see more and more vicious attacks.
		They're going to take a personal side against researchers, against people who are taking these issues seriously and looking into them with integrity and seriousness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you do now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When a television show approaches you now after the NOVA experience, how do you vet them?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, to tell you the truth, Art, I don't know that I have an absolute way of going about protecting myself.
		I don't think, in a way, you can.
		There's a certain sense of the roll of the dice about it.
		And I did trust the NOVA people because they had that reputation.
		And of course, one of the things that I should just add on the NOVA program, one of the abactees who I presented on the program, who willingly came forward because it was NOVA, wrote to the producer and said,
		he also spoke to her personally, but he sent her a letter saying he wanted to be tested in any way, medically, psychologically, interviewed by psychiatrists, whatnot, polygraph tests, anything, any members of his family, x-rays, MRIs, anything they wanted to do, he was willing to do it.
		And they said no and said on the program that I had somehow not cooperated with them, and they said this in a letter afterwards, and had prevented anybody from being tested.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all I can say is it's beginning to seem like a war.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It is a war in a certain sense.
		I really think it is.
		And it's taken a vicious kind of personal turn to it.
		Yes, exactly.
		And as I say, I think it's getting even worse.
		Now, for instance, Philip Klass has said in interviews, this is a man who's supposed to be interested in investigating cases, which he does not do.
		He simply pontificates about a theoretical explanation without having looked into it.
		But at any rate, he said that abductees are simply little nobodies trying to get on television, which I think is, of course, a wonderful piece of self-description on his part.
		But the basic point here is that this is nothing more and nothing less than witness intimidation.
		If you present that idea, and out of one side of your mouth, you're saying, I think people should come forward if they claim that they've had these experiences.
		And on the other hand, if they do come forward, they're just little no buddies trying to get on television.
		What's going to be the end result?
		And that's going to be that people, especially people who have jobs or positions at stake, are not going to come forward.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're going to stop, sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And so witness intimidation is the basic method that the debunkers have used.
		And that's not just abductions, of course, that's all cases.
		That's whether it's somebody from the military coming forward about military experience or cover-up information or whatnot, or whether this is a simple fighting report.
		If you're a police sergeant and you're hoping to make lieutenant and you've had a low-level fighting, you're not going to come forward with that at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't see one of those.
		All right, Bud, hold tight.
		We'll get back to you after the top of the hour.
unidentified		You've got a good little break here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to take one second out and tell everybody that in a few moments there's a program on TBS called Topics.
		You might want to go set your VCR right now.
		It begins in about two minutes or so.
		And I suspect pieces and parts or portions of my program are going to be on that.
		So set a VCR.
		Stay with Dreamland.
		Topics on TBS beginning in about two minutes.
		That's a don't miss it kind of warning.
		I'm Art Bell from an area near Dreamland.
		is Dreamland.
unidentified		I love it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM 1500, KSTP from the Kingdom of Nine.
unidentified		You're here in Dreamland with Art Bell.
		To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's what it is.
		I'm Art Bell.
		My guest is Bud Hopkins, and he'll be back in a moment.
		Well, we've searched the Naples News website with no luck.
		If anybody out there has that particular photograph of Bigfoot, I would really appreciate it if you would send it to me at artbell at AOL.com or my diligent webmaster, Keith Rowland, at KeithR, that's K-E-I-T-H-R, all lowercase, at primenet.com.
		We're trying to get hold of that photograph.
		That's Mark.
		Well, I guess you know when you're getting close because they begin coming after you as they have come after me, as they have come after Bud Hopkins, and as I guess the whole thing is going to escalate.
		But, Bud, let's turn away from this stupid, stupid war that's going on, and let's talk about what's really going on and what's really important.
		And you, last time you were on the program, I'm trying to remember when it was.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It was during the Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		During the Roswell business, you told me the story of Witnessed.
		And how I missed that, I don't know, but it's got to be one of the best documented in all history.
		Yeah, would you be willing to tell that again?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I certainly will.
		But, you know, just one final statement on what we were talking about.
		And that is art.
		I think that the effectiveness of people like you and me and Linda and a number of other people in presenting this material, presenting the idea that the evidence exists and had better darn well be looked at and taken seriously, that the UFO phenomenon is a real phenomenon which is altering our basic understanding of the entire universe.
		Your effectiveness, and I know about the popularity of your program, how many people it reaches.
		I've just found that my last book, Intruders, is coming out now in mainland China.
		It's in really 10 or 11 or 12 languages.
		It's now being reissued as a trade paperback, as well as a mass market book.
		But it's in very strange languages like Romanian and you would think small countries, Norwegian, etc.
		But the books have reached out.
		Of course, Intruders was a mini-series on CBS, which has been shown several times, and that reaches millions and millions of people.
		Your program's enormous listening audience, the success of a number of other books, and the effectiveness of the presentations, I think is giving the powers that be creeps here.
		We can start patting ourselves on the back a little bit here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Intruders is going into mainland China.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's been Japanese, and it's been in Chinese on Taiwan, but the mainland Chinese are taking it now.
		So it's literally been a worldwide book.
		And of course, I just negotiated to have Valentine continue issuing Missing Time, which is now 16 years old.
		So these books have had a tremendous readership.
		And I think that all of these things collectively have added up to a situation where the government or whatever the powers are or the more conservative side is really having trouble putting this all away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many books have you actually sold now altogether?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That I do not know.
		Actually, I'm a very poor business person.
		I have yet to master reading a royalty sheet, even if it's in English.
		But many, many books.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably millions.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And you know what's a funny thing, just to pass on?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Of course, you know about the famous conference on the abduction phenomenon at MIT.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And that was organized essentially by David Pritchard and John Mack.
		And David Pritchard is a world-class physicist, an extremely important person who takes this very seriously.
		And I once asked him, I said, David, how did you get involved in this very strange subject?
		And he blushed a little bit.
		He said, well, as a matter of fact, one of his students left a copy of Intruders on his desk when he left class.
		He picked it up and read it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there's another one.
		They went after John Mack.
		Oh, boy, did they go after John Mack.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, there's a personal vendetta now.
		I think that's why I say it's getting more vicious.
		But anyway, we're going to win.
		But back to the issue of witnessed.
		This is the situation.
		When it comes to the abduction phenomenon, even though there's all kinds of physical evidence, the UFO might land and it might knock down a tree in the process or alter the soil by some electromagnetic means.
		We have no idea how it operates and so on.
		I have numerous cases where people have been taken and returned to the wrong house or they're returned wearing somebody else's clothes.
		Errors are made, etc.
		And of course the physical marks and so on.
		There's all many, many levels of physical evidence.
		But we have never really had a situation where people saw an individual being abducted, meaning floating up into a beam of light or whatnot.
		That part of it is always somehow concealed.
		And we don't know how that concealment works.
		We know people are, as it were, switched off.
		They're rendered in a sort of a comatose state.
		And then they're switched back on after the experience is over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which accounts for the missing time in a lot of cases.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is something that witnesses who were too close to the action, so to speak, are somehow made to go to sleep, as it were.
		And so they don't actually see it happening.
		We know that happens, but there's some kind of shielding, and of course the dread word invisibility comes up, etc.
		But we know that with all of the abduction cases that take place even in big cities, and I've looked into cases that occurred in Rome, in London, in New York City, Los Angeles, etc.
		We know that there should be witnesses.
		There should be people see the UFO and see the person being taken.
		Well, all of a sudden, that fact that we don't see it was broken back in November 30th, 1989.
		And the story here is that a woman I was working with who had reported abduction experiences and she had written to me, and she's an Italian-American background housewife with two children, very stable and very nice person.
		She reported to me in the morning, and this is literally about five or six hours after the event occurred, that she had been abducted the night before, she thought, because just before she went to bed, when she was in bed, before she'd gone to sleep, she felt a paralysis coming up her body.
		She felt that coming terror, the sense that there's someone in the room.
		She opened her eyes, and there was a small, you know, gray figure with a big head, big black eyes standing at the foot of the bed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, again, this is in New York.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		This is in New York City, and this is all conscious recollection.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not a little farmhouse in the middle of nowhere.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Joan Rivers always used to say it's always a guy in bib overalls in the back of a truck, but that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the case.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		This is right in New York City.
		Now, she happens to live in a big apartment complex right down on the East River near the Brooklyn Bridge.
		She had then further recollections, which were vague, after feeling this absolute paralysis all the way through her body.
		She remembered sitting on a table.
		She remembered some small hands going up and down her back and wrapping on her back.
		They often do something.
		It's as if they're kind of checking the vertebra or something, the nervous system.
		We don't know what it is exactly, but this is often reported.
		She had some other recollections, but at any rate, that was that.
		And we did a hypnotic session, and she remembered that she had been floated out her window, the 12th-story window of the apartment.
		She was terrified that she was going to fall.
		She was lifted up in a blue-white beam of light and taken up into the craft, and these various things happened there, and then she was returned.
		She remembered feeling as if she was being dropped on the bed from a foot or so above it.
		And this is really one of the touching aspects of it.
		This is really somewhat peripheral, but she was immediately terrified for her children, two little boys, because knowing that this had happened to her, what was going to happen to them?
		She rushed into their bedroom and she couldn't rouse either one of them.
		And she had no sign that they were actually breathing.
		And she was absolutely terrified that her family was dead.
		The same thing had happened, incidentally, to her husband, that she couldn't rouse him either.
		She went in the bathroom, grabbed a pocket mirror.
		She held the mirror up to her little boy's face, hoping that she would see signs of breath, moisture on the mirror.
		But she said she was crying so much, she couldn't see it herself at first.
		And then finally, she did see some moisture, and suddenly both boys woke up simultaneously as if the state of suspended animation was over.
		They all woke up at once.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, is it a typical abduction?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's radically.
		Well, the abduction of being taken into the craft and the way she was taken in and returned, that is all extremely typical.
		Extremely typical.
		It's the later part that gets very, very different.
		What happened was we did the hypnotic session.
		That was very early in December of 89.
		And then in 91, in February, I received a letter, probably the most remarkable letter I've ever received, from two men representing themselves as police officers, saying, Mr. Hopkins, we cannot live with ourselves any longer without telling somebody.
		And described the fact that back in late November 1989, they described where they were parked in their car, and they saw a UFO above this large apartment building.
		The address was, of course, right next to her apartment building.
		And they saw all of the lights go on in this craft.
		And one of the men later said it was like the most brilliant light show he'd ever seen.
		Now, that's not the way you go about something in a covert, hidden way.
		You don't put on a light show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And then they saw this blue-white beam of light shine out of the bottom of the craft, and a woman and three small alien figures, rolled up in a somewhat of a fetal position, came rolling out the 12th-story window in mid-air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Two policemen.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		They turned out not to be policemen, but government security intelligence agents.
		They told me they were policemen at first, but they ultimately, I think, were trying to see whether they could trust me or what I would do with this and so forth.
		So over the ensuing next three years, they gave me more information, and I have established a rather cordial relationship with one of the men, even though we have never actually physically met.
		We have maintained this relationship through audio tapes that he sent me and many letters.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I take it they have ongoing employment.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they are high-level security intelligence agents.
		And to tell you how high-level they are, it's a complicated thing, but Linda identified, the woman who had floated out the window, identified one of the men because she was reviewing a number, six hours or so,
		of tapes having to do with events at the United Nations because we were looking to see if she could find either of these two men because ultimately we found out, they explained, that they were intelligence security officers dealing with some important political figures who had left the meeting at the UN.
		They were guarding these people.
		They were heading down towards Governor's Island, which is a secure helicopter base, Coast Guard base in New York Harbor.
		At any rate, as Linda was reviewing these tapes, hoping we could find a glimpse, she located one of the agents, Dan, his first name.
		And I subsequently have found photographs of Dan standing on Governor's Island the year before when Gorbachev met there with Reagan and Vice President Bush.
		And there is, lined up in a row, Dan, President Reagan, President-elect Bush, and Gorbachev, with a huge crowd of people around him.
		But Dan is right next to all of them.
		On the tape, we see him actually opening the door for Gorbachev's car, obviously operating as an extremely high-level security agent, security intelligence agent.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		But the most important part of this, after the fact that they actually witnessed the abduction, was that they explained there was a third extremely important political figure of world influence in the car with them who saw the whole thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The person they were transporting slash protection.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And they were only one of several cars which contained a number of other important political figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have they given you that name yet?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they have given me the name, and this is the basic point.
		And he's communicated with me, and I've had a meeting with him, which I describe in the book, even though he has said to me that if I ever identified him, he would deny it.
		And so it would be my word against his.
		He hopes someday to be able to tell the truth.
		But this is the interesting thing about their attitude, and this is something I'm sure you've run into too in these cases.
		People want the story out, but they do not want to give their name.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And this has to do with what we were talking about earlier with witness intimidation, which is the basic debunking weapon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		So they want the story out, but this is only where the whole thing begins.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I, meanwhile, received another letter from a woman who told me about her car stopping, the engine dying, and this is what happened to the political figures as they were driving down South Street at 3 a.m., heading to this helicopter pad.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Their car stopped.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Their car engine stopped.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		This is an electromagnetic effect, which seems to be deliberate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and so now you've got another letter from somebody else.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Another letter from a woman on the Brooklyn Bridge.
		Her car stopped.
		The engine died.
		The lights went out.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		She was terrified that she was going to be rear-ended.
		This is a very conservative, very nice woman.
		And I had a most interesting time with her as she drew for me what she saw.
		She made sketches, described everything in exactly the same details that I had gotten from these government people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they do the same?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they supply you with sketches at any point?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I have sketches from everybody, and I have reproduced those sketches in the book.
		But that's only part of it.
		Ultimately, I rounded up another witness who was driving down with her boyfriend, and he saw the UFO too down on the FDR Drive, which is an elevated highway, directly above where these political figures' cars had stopped.
		And they saw the UFO, and they have a period of missing time, apparently, but they described the UFO in exactly the same position above the building.
		I have somebody uptown, higher up in Manhattan, who was having an abduction experience that night, who saw that while she was being taken into a UFO at her location, she saw this orange-red UFO downtown in the area of Linda's building.
		I also have somebody who lived in Linda's apartment complex who woke up that night feeling extremely strange and found the entire courtyard of her building, that's the building that Linda was abducted from, the whole courtyard was lit up by a very uncanny, very frightening light.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		She said she would never sleep.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		She had her husband actually move the bed away from the window.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		She was afraid after that, not knowing, of course, what had happened to anybody, she didn't want to ever be near that window again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can understand that.
		All right, Bud, hold tight.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is Bud Hopkins.
		You're hearing the witnessed story.
		It is absolutely remarkable.
		Perhaps Nova should have done a bit on that.
		What do you think?
		I'm Art Bell from the high desert near Dreamland.
		is Dreamland.
		The End The talk station, AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		From the Kingdom of Nine, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call ART now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
		Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, pretty weird competing with yourself.
		I just went in and watched myself on Topics for a moment running on TBS right now.
		If you have missed that, it's going to re-air at 11.50 Pacific Time, or 2.50 in the morning, I guess, Eastern.
		It's a program called Topics on WTBS, or TBS, the Superstation.
		Before we move on, and I've got a very interesting facts here, my guest is Bud Hopkins, and we want to finish up with Witnessed, which is a remarkable, remarkable story.
		Why didn't Nova do that one, Bud?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's funny.
		I had in the back of my mind the idea of the possibility that they may not be on a level.
		And I did not want to risk something.
		The book was not out.
		And until the book was actually out and people could actually read it for themselves and make up their own minds, I didn't want to enter the tender hands of NOAA.
		I also wanted to do, as I said, a fresh case that would be totally new to me, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's just as well because they probably wouldn't have televised it anyway.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, let me go ahead and read this to you now.
		I used to be a total skeptic about abductions and thought Bud was a total fraud.
		That is, until I saw the Novo program and realized how set up he was.
		It was an obvious agenda.
		It opened my mind to realize that if they were trying that hard to discredit, there's got to be something there.
		Since then, I've checked up on abductions and I'm astounded by the facts and by the discrediting tactics.
		Now I believe abductions are real.
		And oh, by the way, I met Cynthia Hind, Who worked with John Mack on the Zimbabwe event?
		I don't know what that is.
		Please ask Bud about the latest news of what he knows and if he has talked with Cynthia.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have talked to Cynthia.
		We both spoke together this summer at the conference in the MUFUN conference in Michigan, Grand Rapids.
		And she was charming as ever.
		And the most important thing, when you said she worked with John Mack, in a certain sense, it should be the other way around.
		Cynthia lives in Zimbabwe, and she was actually there and did her first videotapes within a week of the incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm not familiar with the incident.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Oh, well, this is quite fascinating.
		We still don't know exactly what happened, but there was a school in Zimbabwe which had a mixture of white children and native African children, all extremely bright.
		And I would say the age range of the children involved in this go up to about 12 years old.
		It was about the oldest.
		They were out in recess, and there were some 60 children and saw a UFO land.
		Actually, there were several UFOs flying around.
		This was all daytime.
		The thing landed in a kind of wooded area just adjacent to the playground.
		The children watched in amazement, and a figure with big black eyes came out of the craft and stared at them and scared them to death.
		The children, some of them ran in to get the teachers, and nobody would respond, of course.
		This can't be, so therefore it isn't.
		Some of the smaller children were quite terrified and crying.
		And what happened then was some of the teachers began to take them seriously after they came back in the building and everybody, the UFOs had left and so forth.
		They were quite taken with the similarity of descriptions that they were getting from these various children.
		And Cynthia Hind, who was quite a wonderful woman, as I say, lives there and she got to the school very, very shortly.
		I think it was within a week.
		And she showed at this MUFAN conference a series of videotapes, which she took.
		Now, John Mack later on went to Zimbabwe, as have some other people, Michael Hessman, who also interviewed the children.
		And I think, you know, when you're interviewing young children about something like this, there's a lot of diminishing return.
		Children are told the story many times.
		But there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that these children saw something that scared them to death.
		And their descriptions were extremely similar.
		The drawings are quite fascinating that they made.
		Now, we don't know whether there was any abduction or anything that happened, but at least here was a low-level landing, and in the old parlance of investigations, a CE3 case, meaning a close encounter of the third kind, which means we see UFO occupants.
		And they were some, oh, I believe ultimately 40 or 50 feet away from a whole yard full of children.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but let me ask you this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		With respect to witnessed, the story you told us, with respect to Zimbabwe, the one you just told us, two incidents when people saw something happen, many witnesses.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Many witnesses, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But most times, there are no witnesses.
		So what kind of conclusion do you come to when you begin thinking about that?
		In other words, are they only seen, Bud, when they wish to be seen?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the case of witness, that's what seems to have happened.
		They seem to have put on a display deliberately to attract attention rather than to conceal what they were doing.
		The woman on the Brooklyn Bridge told me that she, as she watched this thing unfold and these brilliant lights and these figures floating out of a 12th-story window, she said, all I could think of was that somebody's making a movie, that she was seeing somebody's special effects.
		She said, this just can't be.
		And she said it was so real that she said, it must be fake.
		It's just impossible.
		And therefore, it would seem, because they can do this and do it again and again without direct witnesses, that this was one case where they wanted to be seen, I think, because of the important political figures who were in these cars down below.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're aware, aren't you, of the Phoenix lights, of course?
		Yes.
		There is a Phoenix city councilwoman, Frances Barwood.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Right, and she's the one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She simply sat there in a city council meeting and asked that there be an investigation.
		Well, she has gone through hell.
		Yeah.
		The mayor of Phoenix has a little thing where Frances Barwood talks into aluminum foil.
		I mean, she's going through living hell.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, look at what the governor tried to pull with his little stunt to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that one I still don't believe.
		He said there was going to be an announcement of an investigation.
		He went in to court where he had some things himself to answer for, I guess.
		Exactly.
		And came back out and guessed the whole thing is a joke.
		Now, with respect to abductions, Bud, with respect to Phoenix and all the other sightings, Las Vegas recently, it's happening more and more and more and more.
		They want to be seen.
		They want to be noticed.
		Do you think they're sitting up there saying, well, where the hell's our press?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's very, very hard, of course, to know exactly how an alien would think.
		I mean, that's one of the problems we have.
		When we use the word alien, I don't mean in a pejorative sense.
		I just mean they're not us.
		You know, my use of alien was when I'm in Mexico, I'm an alien.
		You know, it doesn't say anything about where I come from or what I am.
		But they are different.
		They are not us.
		And so how their minds work and what their ultimate goals are, we do not know.
		But it would certainly seem in terms of the effects that these events have had, and that's the Phoenix Lights, just as an example, showing up over a city.
		If, in fact, this is a legitimate UFO sighting.
		I know that there's this recent theory about the flare business, but at any rate...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I agree.
		106-minute event.
		I know.
		Flares last five minutes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Those are remarkable flares.
		But the point is that it would seem as if doing this over a major city is again a kind of deliberate attempt to attract attention.
		Alan Hynek used to say that it's almost as if we're being subjected to a kind of slow, gradual consciousness raising.
		And the year-by-year figures of growth of the population who accept the reality of the UFO phenomenon would attest to the fact that however they're doing it, it's working.
		More and more people are taking this seriously and understanding it.
		And I think that when we get to some of the attacks on some of these people, like the councilwoman that you just referred to, and for that matter, attacks on you, attacks on me, and others, I think that part of it has to do with a tremendous uneasiness on the parts of the people doing the attacking.
		This really undercuts everything.
		And it's interesting when you said that you had trouble accepting the idea of abductions.
		Many UFO researchers would say they could accept the idea that UFOs are here and obviously some kind of intelligence that's not from Earth is piloting them.
		But the idea that they're messing with us was so upsetting that they would say, that part I can't believe.
		And yet now we know that the real reason they're here has to do with human beings.
		They're interested in human beings.
		They're not interested in our reservoirs or our atomic weapons or anything like that.
		They're interested in us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is it about us they're interested in?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there we have, I think, a two-level thing.
		First, physically, I think they are extremely interested in our genetic makeup, and they are using our DNA, our genetic human characteristics to blend with their own as if they need some kind of revivification of their own species or something of this sort, that they are trying to create a hybrid mix.
		I think that is the most essential thing that we know about, actually perhaps about the whole UFO phenomenon at this point, that this is what it seems to be centrally about.
		And the next thing, of course, is that they seem to be extremely interested in our human personalities, our range of emotions, which they seem to lack.
		You know, it's interesting, if fantasy were involved, people would be fantasizing fierce aliens, aliens that have ray guns and shoot you full of laser holes and vicious aliens and loving, wonderful aliens and everything else.
		But we don't get those.
		What we get, reports, are these sort of detached, emotionless, not malevolent, not cruel, but creatures who seem intensely interested in a kind of quasi-scientific investigation of human beings.
		And I think that, and this is speculation, but it would seem to me that they are very, very interested and envious even of the range of differences that we have amongst ourselves, emotionally and intellectually, even racially, that they seem to be wanting to achieve some of that emotional richness or spiritual richness, let's put it that way, that human beings have that they seem to lack.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		With the abduction syndrome of humans, may or may not fit the cattle mutilations.
		I mean, they're absolutely remarkable.
		That's where Lynn and Moltao's done a lot of work.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one might have, you mentioned DNA, mixing and matching.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another aspect to this might be that they may be monitoring our deteriorating environments.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I think that they would certainly be interested, as I put in my book in Witness, that everybody likes to believe that the hotel they're staying in is clean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And therefore, they would naturally have a stake in our environment.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And that would certainly seem to be part of the picture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the Antarctic, for example, right now, they have just reported the first actual DNA changes.
		DNA changes.
		Not just mutilated frogs or mutated fronds, but DNA changes in simple-celled organisms.
		That's getting serious.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, it is very hard to know what the ultimate program is, especially because, as I say, the two basic myths that we have developed over the years, neither one of these myths seems to apply.
		The one myth is, of course, the evil aliens here to blow us up, and Lord knows how many movies have been on that score since the beginning.
		The alien as invader.
		And the other is the benevolent alien here to help us out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Warm, fuzzy little guy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, wonderful.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, in the old Contactee reports back in the 50s, everybody was taken to Venus by these beautiful creatures with long blonde hair and soulful eyes.
		And they sat around, one man reported, sitting around in a Venusian swimming pool of these gorgeous Venusian women.
		But that whole idea of benevolent aliens or malevolent aliens, neither one of those has panned out.
		What we get is something that is still elusive as to what its ultimate purpose is with regard to us.
		We know what they're doing to humans.
		We know what they're taking, just as Linda knows what they're doing to cattle and what they're taking.
		But she doesn't know, nor do I know, in the abduction area, exactly what they are doing with what they take and what the ultimate goal is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, but the interest, whether it's cattle or people, seems to be intensely in reproduction.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		There is no doubt about that.
		And this is, of course, something that when I first started looking into the abduction phenomenon back in the middle 70s, I kind of averted my eyes from.
		I didn't want to think about that.
		And in my first book, Missing Time, I didn't even deal with it except in a very peripheral way.
		But ultimately, it became so clear that I wrote Intruders, and I thought that at that point, it was kind of amusing.
		I got a very nice review, mixed, but essentially timely, and it urged people to read the book in the New York Times.
		And I was thinking, in the history of the New York Times, no book as wild as mine has ever been as favorably reviewed.
		A book that says, in effect, extraterrestrial beings, or whatever we want to call them, are coming here to take sperm and ova cells from us, to artificially inseminate our women to try to create a hybrid mix.
		This was the material that I presented in the book in a number of different cases.
		And it was taken at least partially seriously by the Times editorial staff of the book review.
		And of course, at this point, that was 10 years ago when the book appeared, it's had such a wide influence that I think it's fairly safe to say that there's nobody, there's no investigator into the abduction phenomenon, I mean, who takes the phenomenon seriously as opposed to debunk it, who doesn't accept the idea that this is very, very central.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are many abductees, women, but who have later than been abducted again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, it seems to occur again and again, and been shown what they believe to be their children.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
unidentified		Typical?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's very typical.
		And even some men have been shown little children and made to feel that their selves have contributed to the making of that child.
		And, you know, the touching tiny details when you deal with these people, the details that you hear just have the ring of authenticity about them, apart from many, many other reasons for accepting these cases.
		But I've had three different women tell me who didn't know one another, and this is under hypnosis or this is a conscious recollection, that when they were handed a small child, let's say it was a two-year-old or one-year-old, approximately hard to know, but they looked like a strange mix between us and them.
		And these children universally are described as having very sparse hair.
		It's usually a kind of white or a blonde, very pale hair.
		When they have been handed these babies, three different women have said to me, the baby's hair is all standing up.
		Nobody's combing or brushing their hair.
		Nobody's brushing their hair.
		She said, it's like they don't know how to take care of hair.
		And these mothers, who have this strong maternal instinct, are upset that these poor little babies are not being groomed.
		And I keep thinking, that's just one of those eminently human details, which underlines the fact that this is a real experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It certainly does.
		Fairly common, then.
		I've never heard that before.
unidentified		Yeah.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And the now, this is the other thing about what I call the presentation scene, where the putative parent is handed the baby or the child that is extremely interesting,
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		too, and touching, is that the aliens seem to believe that humans have some emotional or magical ability in their own touch, in the human touch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		We do, exactly.
		But they want us to hold these babies, and the implication is, and they have even said it, that you will give this baby strength.
		And when you think about this, if they are of such an advanced race and scientific accomplishment that the females have not had to carry offspring inside their bodies for gestation period, as we have here on Earth, for the nine months, etc.
		And perhaps babies are created completely in vitro, test-tube babies, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, did you know they just invented an artificial womb here on Earth?
		It was just an announcement.
		Not for humans yet.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I didn't know that, but it certainly seems to be in the offing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I mean, something like that after the cloning and the reproductive skills that have been gained recently by scientists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		But I think that if a mother, so-called, in some kind of cosmic family from wherever, has never carried the child and sort of, I suppose, acquires a child the way you buy a puppy in a pet store or something, Lord knows how that would work.
		But the necessary emotional connection that a human mother feels after having carried that baby internally for nine months, that would be completely lacking.
		So they don't seem to know what to do.
		And these babies seem to be, these hybrid babies seem very often to be described as being looking very sickly and weak and as if they're not thriving.
		It's as if that this is an ongoing experiment, really, that is not yet actually foolproof as far as the U.S. occupants are concerned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you really haven't made your own judgment.
		When we come back, I want to ask you whether you believe it's benign or malevolent or both.
		It's the top of the hour.
		Relax.
		We'll be back shortly.
		I'm Mark Bell from the High Desert, near Dreamlands, Area 51.
		This is Greenland.
unidentified		This is Greenland.
		727-1222 or the Wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right, we are going to get the lines open for Bud Hopkins here momentarily.
		Now, for those of you who missed the Topics program, which ran on TBS, it will not be shown tonight, but rather Monday, Monday night at 11.50 Pacific Time.
		So if you missed it, Monday night at 11.50, they're going to rerun it.
		That would be 2.50 in the morning Eastern, and I'll get an opportunity, obviously, to remind my audience tomorrow night of that fact.
		Anyway, back to Bud shortly.
		All right, I'm going to put you together with Bud Hopkins, in just a moment, the only number not given in the group of numbers, which will let you reach us, is the east of the Rockies line.
		Anywhere east of the Rockies, it's 1-800-825-5033.
		That's 1-800-825-5033.
		Back down to Bud Hopkins.
		And, Bud, I guess we should retrace here because I just got the following from Brian.
		Art, I've been listening to the show and thus far, I haven't heard Bud tell the listeners what the lady of the sands said to the important political figure.
		What was said, I believe, is the reason for the abduction and may give some insight as to what the aliens are doing here.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the book is so complex.
		As I said, there's virtually a cast of thousands and so many complex incidents that there was just no time to begin to get into anything beyond the central event of November 30th, 89.
		The Lady of the Sands episode has to do with an abduction, well, material that surfaced later about the original abduction experience.
		This very important political figure was himself abducted that night, although that didn't emerge right away.
		And one of the things that occurred that Brian is referring to here is that Linda Cortila, the abductee, said something to him implying that he was responsible or humans were responsible for despoiling the environment.
		Now, her saying this seemed to be something that was imposed upon her as if the aliens were using her.
		I used the term alien co-option.
		They will somehow, and we get this again and again, a person will report themselves being in an abduction experience where they are doing the aliens' bidding willingly, even dressed as if they were an alien, and feeling afterwards great remorse, feeling that they had somehow been used and abused, so to speak, and were not themselves, really.
		Linda complained to me afterwards that she was herself not an animal rights activist or any kind of an ecologist or anything, even though it was, in effect, her voice sort of lecturing this important political figure about issues.
		We don't know, again, whether this is a really important point or whether this is some kind of smokescreen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nevertheless, the environment was mentioned.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yes.
		That has come up many times.
		But we don't know whether that's a real thing.
		As I pointed out, nobody likes to stay in a hotel that's dirty.
		From the aliens' point of view, that they would obviously favor a healthy environment on this planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Much to cover, but bud, look, beginning in about 1989, we started to get relatively simple crop circles.
		And now, this year, they become more and more complex and more and more frequent until this year we have had the most complex, the most frequent crop circles.
		It's absolutely going crackers in Europe right now, even in this country.
		Crop circles, crop circles, crop circles.
		And I know that it doesn't relate to abduction necessarily, but somehow I think it may be connected to the environmental issue.
		And that's just a very loose guess.
		Have you thought about that at all?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, if you examine every kind of possibility, now we have many cases where abductees report being shown images of a ravaged earth or the earth blowing up or floods or disasters.
		We don't know whether, in fact, this is a warning of the future or this is some kind of projective test to see exactly what kind of loyalty we owe our own planet, how we would feel if such things might happen.
		We don't really know what this means.
		What I feel we really need is some kind of guidance.
		You know, as I've said a number of times before, just getting warnings about ecological problems, I mean, we can get that from reading the New York Times or going to a lecture at MIT or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the results of the NASA shuttle flight that's up there right now.
		Earlier in the program, we talked about, or before the top of the hour, benign or malevolent.
		Here is a fact.
		Art, I've been to Bud's webpage.
		I've read some of his theories of why E.T. is kidnapping humans.
		And bottom line, if I were to witness a kidnapping and not rendered motionless myself, I'd attempt to murder as many of those ETs as possible while yelling, don't worry, I'm not going to harm you, and see if they get the point to respect us or die.
		Read this to Bud, he'll get the point.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the basic issue is that the person undergoing the abduction experience does not feel like he or she is dealing with bloodthirsty enemies bent on harming him or her.
		That just doesn't come through.
		We don't get the sense that people feel these are enemies.
		On the other hand, as I have said many times, we don't get the feeling that they're here to help us either.
		And I think the most important point here to make about all of this is that they seem to be doing their thing for their reasons, and those reasons might ultimately turn out to be extremely dangerous and damaging to us.
		We don't really know.
		I mean, they may take over the planet, or in fact, they may finally close up the hole in the ozone layer and teach us how to clean our house.
		Yeah, to clean the house.
		We don't really know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was going to say, Bud, that I'm sure the black men at Tuskegee thought they were getting good care, too.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, oh, yeah.
		Well, exactly.
		That was one of the most horrendous episodes that I can think of in American medical history.
		But really horrible to think about.
		But the point is, inescapable, it's inescapable that what they are doing is causing great harm to the abductees, psychologically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If I might, let's bring on some people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time calling line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from San Francisco.
		Okay.
		Bud, I just wanted to relate an experience of mine because I don't hear too often about these types of experiences.
		You've mentioned in the 1950s there were tall, blonde beings that people were saying were from Venus.
		That happened not that often.
		Well, I've had dreams for years where I've seen these tall, blonde beings, and it's not as glamorous as those experiences in the 50s, but it's more like a classroom situation that I'm in.
		And sometimes there have been examinations and healings.
		And for the most part, they seem very kind and compassionate.
		And I don't feel like I'm being abducted.
		So I just wanted to relate that to you because I don't talk about it that often.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, ma'am, you said dream.
		What makes you think you are being abducted?
		And how do you delineate between a dream and a real event?
unidentified		Well, because the thing is, when I'm there, I feel like I'm really there, and I know I'm really there.
unidentified		It's just that when I wake up in the morning and I'm in my apartment, I think, wait a minute, this was a dream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Bud, that's a good question.
		How do you delineate between the real event and a dream?
		Is it possible that would hypnosis, for example, yield back details of a dream as though it was a real thing?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are many criteria to help you decide whether something is a dream or not.
		And the basic point about what our caller said is that we don't really know what to make of her experience.
		It's as if she isn't quite sure what to make of it either, herself exactly.
		And that's, again, the reason why we need to investigate each particular case before we come up with an opinion about it, at least from the point of view of us who are doing investigations.
		But in terms of deciding whether something is a dream, these are the things I tell people ordinarily, that when you dream, you usually distort your surroundings.
		In other words, I often dream that I'm in my bedroom and it's got a 30-foot ceiling and, you know, it feels like my room, but it doesn't really look like it.
		But if you feel in this quote-unquote dream that's so puzzling and so real, that you woke up, you were in your room, and everything looked exactly the way it should look.
		You see the digital clock, you see your bedroom slippers or whatever it is, then that probably is not a dream.
		It's probably a real experience.
		That's only one criterion, and it's not absolutely certain.
		But if everything looks exactly right, that's not the way dreams generally manifest themselves.
		The second thing is, in dreams, one tends to see things.
		You report what you're seeing visually, and you have emotional reactions, but the full range of senses are not operating.
		In other words, you can dream you're walking down the street naked, and you can be very embarrassed, but you're not cold, and you don't step in a mud puddle, or you don't cut your foot on a piece of glass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And or you don't smell anything, that sort of thing.
		But if in these dreams, these questionable dreams, the person is going through all of the full arrangements of, I mean the full reactions of the senses.
		Plus, for instance, if you, in your quote-unquote dream, stepped on a piece of glass and you wake up and you have a bloody foot in bed, etc., then you probably weren't dreaming.
		It's important to realize that many UFO experiences feel like dreams.
		And of course, in fact, may be.
		That's why each thing has to be looked into in its own terms.
		And so these are some of the criteria that we suggest that people use when they try to analyze their own experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We know sightings are increasing.
		Mexico has been absolutely incredible.
		There's actually been aircraft damage, collisions with UFOs, that sort of thing.
		Phoenix, Las Vegas, all the rest of it, that's increasing.
		The crop circles are increasing.
		What about abductions?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, I feel that they're increasing too.
		And it's a hard one to recall, absolutely, for the simple reason that what you hear about is just what you hear about.
		It doesn't necessarily mean that you hear about everything that's going on in your cases.
		It's a little harder to conceal a huge crop circle than it is to conceal an abduction where the abductee may not want to tell anybody or may not know who to report it to, etc.
		But beyond that problem, which is a very large one, it's my feeling that there is a momentum to this and that there are more abductions and that the UFO occupants are getting even a little more sloppy in their carrying out these abductions.
		More mistakes are being made.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would be surprised.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I get calls from people who say, boy, I'd like to be abducted.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you say to those folks?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I could just say that if they talked to somebody who had the experience, they probably wouldn't feel that way.
		Now, this is an interesting thing.
		I've had, this is a very subtle point, but I've had people say, well, even though I was terrified and I went through the mill with these experiences and I've had some physical after effects that were unpleasant, et cetera, still, in some level, my horizons have been expanded.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		That's unmistakable.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I have a new sense of the universe that's very different than that that I had before these experiences and so forth.
		So on some level, it's had positive aspects, which is, of course, I think quite true with a lot of people.
		But I have never met a single abductee who, when I asked him, would you want your child to go through this, who ever said yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Wildguard Line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good evening, Art.
		This is maybe a little off the topic.
		Colonel Carso, when he was on your show, and I just remember fleeting references to this, and you may be able to fill in more detail.
		He referred to hostile acts in the air, I believe it was in the air, by alien spacecrafts.
		Does this register at all with anything Bud in the alien?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		He asked about what in the air?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hostile acts in the air.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Hostile acts in the air.
unidentified		Yeah, he said there had been some hostilities from the aliens, which was one reason for secrecy.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll give you a response, and then Bud will.
		I would say that what our government cannot control and does not understand, it will not admit exists.
		That's just a quick one from me.
		What do you think?
		Did you hear?
		Did you read Corso's?
		Well, have you heard Corso?
		What do you think?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, one quick thing.
		Alan Hynek used to have a cartoon which he showed, which showed a couple of overweight Air Force generals leaning over the shoulder of a radar operator who was showing you these blips on the screen.
		And he said, one officer said to the other, I don't know, he said, why don't we shoot one down and see if they're friendly?
		But the thing here is that as far as hostile acts, we have some cases, especially one that occurred off of Cuba.
		It was picked up by our listening devices, I believe NSA operatives, of a couple of Cuban MiGs intercepting a UFO, and when one of them was ordered to, when it got a radar lock on, to fire its missiles, the plane disintegrated.
		Which would seem to be, from the point of view of the UFO, a defensive top.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do you get that report, buddy?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, this has been widely reprinted in, I believe Tim Goode goes into that case in about Top Secrets, but it's a well-known case.
		Now, this was all picked up by Spanish-speaking American people who listen in on all the radio transmissions from Cuba.
		This happened, I believe, in the 70s.
		It's quite a long time ago.
		Now, this is another very interesting thing.
		If this were fantasy, if UFOs were a product of human fantasy, we would have all kinds of battles.
		People would be wresting ray guns out of the hands of the aliens.
		There would be shoot-'em-ups, and look at the movies we have.
		Here we don't really get those reports.
		And certainly, the UFO occupants seem to have the technology to blow anything out of the sky if they wanted to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, before we leave movies, I've got to ask you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You must have seen Contact.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you think?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I didn't like it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You didn't like it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was long, slow, rather boring, and muddled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It'd be interesting.
		I interviewed Leonard Nimoy the other day.
		And he said virtually the same thing.
		Oh, really?
		Yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was certainly not a movie movie.
		And this is on the critical level, I think that Jody Foster is a very cool intellectual actress.
		And when you put a very cool intellectual actress in a very cool intellectual screenplay, then it gets really chilly.
		So I didn't think much of it.
		What did you think of it, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I liked it.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, the special effects were great, but I didn't really like it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The aspect of it that I liked, Bud, was the business about faith.
		In other words, Jodi Foster, at the critical moment, could not muster up the words, true or false, to indicate she had the faith.
		And yet when she came back, she was asking everybody to accept what had occurred to her.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On faith.
		Yes.
		So I thought that was intriguing.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell you, one of the, interestingly, this having been written by Carl Sagan, and I recently published a piece in IUR, the Center for UFO Studies newsletter, on my dealings with Sagan.
		This is part of my ongoing autobiography that I'm writing.
		But anyway, here's a man who was very, very firmly an agnostic, if not atheist.
		And he discouraged people praying for him as worthless when he was very, very ill.
		And I cannot believe that that screenplay faithfully reflects his position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was tender, actually, with respect to his real position, I think.
		All right.
		Hold on, Bud.
		We're at the top of the hour once again, bottom of the hour, actually.
		And boy, it's flown by.
		All right, I'm Art Bell.
		You're listening to Dreamland and Bud Hopkins at that on Dreamland.
		And we're discussing mainly abductions.
		And they, too, Bud thinks, are on the increase.
unidentified		Abductions?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pop circles, animal mutilations, sightings?
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Think it might be leading to something?
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		AM 1500 KSTP.
		AM 1500 KSTP.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		9.
		Telemart Bell told you to call.
		That's 1-800-406-0469.
		Back now to Bud Hopkins.
		Bud, somebody asking you to comment on the Travis Walton abduction.
		On the Walton case, I interviewed Travis Walton and his boss, and it was one of the more interesting interviews that I've ever done.
		And for some odd reason, we appear to have lost Bud.
		So I can't ask him that until I get him back on the line.
		So, let's see.
		We'll do something here and do exactly that and get him back on the line again.
		Such things occur, particularly and unusually occur, I might add, during programs like this.
		Because we have a special thing that locks callers in.
		It literally locks them in and will not allow the line to disengage, but something happens.
unidentified		What could be more cutting edge than Art's unique guests or his phenomenal website?
		The answer?
		You!
		Now you, the listener, can help decide the content of the Art Bell After Dark newsletter.
		Send in your stories, photos, artwork, strange experiences, even news clippings.
		The best submissions will be published in the After Dark newsletter.
		You'll continue to get photos from Art's website and Art's articles as well as stories and pictures you send in.
		You won't want to miss a single issue.
		To subscribe, call 1-800-917-4278 or send 3995-4 and a little more To P.O. Box 3130 Central Point, Oregon, 97502.
		Send your submissions to the same address.
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		Do not send originals of photo or art as submissions become property of CBC.
		Subscribe now.
		Call 1-800-917-4278.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		It's happened before, and now it's happened again.
		I have no idea how it occurs, but we were suddenly disconnected.
		But it's a very interesting phenomenon because I have a little mechanism here that locks a guest line in so that literally nothing can happen.
		And more times than not, when I'm doing these kinds of shows, it happens.
		I was asking a question that you obviously couldn't have heard.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wanted you to comment, if you would.
		I interviewed Travis Walton.
		I interviewed Travis Walton's boss.
		I heard the whole story.
		They've taken lie detector tests.
		It's one of the more interesting, well-documented abduction cases.
		What did you think of it?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a very solid case.
		And my sense of Travis and the people with him is that they have complete integrity.
		This is the interesting thing to always bear in mind.
		These young men, some of whom don't even get along with each other now at this point, have stayed by this story for 22 years.
		Now, one knows that whatever little bits of money were made out of the film and the book, which I'm sure we're minuscule, everyone thinks there's huge amounts of money floating around that there isn't.
		But the point is, whatever small amount of money that may have been handed to some of the crew members, which would be minuscule amounts, I mean, maybe a few hundred dollars just as a courtesy thing, as anyone would have done.
		Any one of those people could have gone to Inside Edition or Hard Copy or one of the tabloid shows and made a mint by exposing this if this were a hoax.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a very difficult time getting them on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They really didn't want it to be.
unidentified		They don't want to.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No, and these guys, they're just plain, normal, nice guys.
		And for 22 years, they have walked the plank.
		They have done every kind of polygraph they've been looked into, and yet they have been vilified, vilified.
		And I think it's absolutely shameful what's been done.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. So do I, and it just happens to everybody who comes forward with a story, and yet, even in the face of that, people are still coming forward.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		I admire the courage of people.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I've just incidentally finished working with a couple who will be telling their story on an A ⁇ E television special production coming up.
		And these people have just been very, very willing to talk about what happened to them.
		And the things that happened to them individually and together.
		And there's a tremendous kind of bravery.
		They're in the field of show business, actually, but on a level that they're not stars or anything like that, where this could actually hurt their bookings.
		But they have felt that this is something that they should do.
		And, of course, doing this in the face of the debunking strategy, which is to just, you know, it's not shoot the messenger, it's shoot the witness, really, is what the debunking strategy is.
		I have to just hand it to people, and I do not even suggest that they should come forward when they ask me.
		I say, you know, you have to consider the risks because the risks are out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's good advice.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Jefferson City, Missouri.
		Okay.
		I have so many questions.
		I'm just going to shorten it down.
		You talked in your book, Witness, about the third man and Richard being abducted with Linda.
		Does she still have those experiences with them?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		No.
		She, I have to say, she did have one experience with Richard, an abduction experience that occurred after the time frame of the book.
		They were abducted again, and it's quite a strange experience.
		I have a tape recording from Richard dealing with that very briefly.
		But Linda is the kind of person who doesn't really want to explore her experiences.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		She wishes it would stop.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		She doesn't like what's happened.
		It's created a lot of havoc within her family, with her children.
		And so I have a feeling that she might downplay certain recollections when she talks to me.
unidentified		Well, I read in your Intruders, and I think it was Kathy Jordan that wrote the book afterward.
		Abducted.
		Yes.
		I'm always curious, are you still in touch with some of these people?
		Do you hear their experiences?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I have a huge network.
		I've worked with now over 600 people, one-on-one abductees that I've dealt with just over the past 20-some years.
		And I am in touch frequently with some of the abductees.
		I try to chat with them whenever I can.
		It's a huge number of people.
		Of course, I don't keep in touch with 600.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was about to ask how you vet the cases.
		In other words, there are probably people constantly writing you.
		I can only imagine how many letters.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's awful.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I would say, incidentally, that I receive every single day, through letters or phone calls or whatever, at least two new potentially strong abduction cases.
		Now, that's amongst all the other letters that are more ambiguous.
		But I mean, two a day that require investigation.
		Now, this could be in South Africa or Zimbabwe.
		Incidentally, I'm going to be traveling very shortly to first to Australia, to several cities giving lectures, and then to Germany to Dusseldorf to a conference, and then to Acapulco, and then to Brazil.
		And this is all before Christmas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a lot of traveling.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's a lot of traveling.
		Well, the subject is one that people here discuss, and I'll be talking about the witness subject matter, too, in that.
		But the point is, in those cities, I inevitably run into other abductees and try to find someone for them to work with in those particular cities.
		I presided over a small support group actually in Rio de Janeiro a couple of years ago, and I've done the same thing in Brisbane, and we'll be doing it again.
		So this is a global phenomenon.
		There's no possible way that the people can find qualified, sympathetic investigators, hypnosis therapists to work with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		So what do they do?
		You said there are support groups.
		Are those, you've got a website, right?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I have a website, yes.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And I also have a post office box that people can write to me the old-fashioned way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		And that is, you write to me, care of if.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That stands for Intruders Foundation, but just if.
jim dilettoso ▲ ● ▼		Box 30233.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		30233.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		New York, New York.
		And the zip is 10011.
		And people want to drop me a note about their experiences.
		And I have a network of people around the country and some people in foreign countries who I can refer people to.
		It's far from as large a network as we need, but we're trying to work on it and to expand it all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Bud Hopkins.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		How are you doing this evening?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bud.
unidentified		Hi, Dar.
unidentified		You know, I've read Intruders and what is that, like a 12-year-old book?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		10.
unidentified		Well, it's a great book.
		It's a great book.
		And I appreciate your writing, and I agree on you with a lot of points about abduction.
		However, I don't necessarily believe in it to this day, even though I think your books are extremely interesting.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		But I did want to ask you, you know, first of all, I don't quite follow you on the genetics part.
unidentified		I don't think they're interested in our genetics.
unidentified		This is just a personal view.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		If they are there indeed, I think they're long since passed on that genetics technology and probably no interest in that whatsoever.
		But I would like to ask you, I'm scared of UFOs personally.
		I've seen 12 of them that some were extremely close and very unheartening or disheartening.
		And at the same time, I'm more scared of what comes after it, the helicopters, the military contingencies.
		And what's your opinion on, do you think we really have anything nailed as far as the UFO, the ET syndrome, or do you think we're just not in cahoots at all to this day?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, that's a very good question.
		In other words, he's right.
		There are frequently helicopters and military personnel involved either during or after an event.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, this is the thing first, it is, in essence, something you hear about, but which is very, very rare.
		In other words, of the 600 or so people I've worked with who have I felt had abutched in cases that I had no reason to disbelieve whatsoever, I would say only a very small handful of those people seem to report what would seem to be government interference with them, Debbie Jordan actually being one, and she's a woman of extremely high credibility.
		But this is the problem.
		If there are literally, as we believe, and I think the evidence is very strong for this, that there are literally millions of abductees, there is no possible way that the government, we don't even have a half a million people in the Army, that the government could harass or surveil or whatever even a tiny percentage of the number of abductees that actually exists.
		Now, in terms of the helicopters, the black helicopters, et cetera, I don't quite know what to make of this phenomenon because if it's the government, it's the dumbest thing in the world because, first of all, you can't do any sort of surveillance in a huge, noisy machine.
		All you can do is intimidate, and it never seems to intimidate anyone.
		People just get angry.
		It doesn't seem to work, whatever it is.
		Plus, I've had a case from Florida where a woman described this black helicopter with tinted glass coming down over her backyard.
		She's an abductee, again, a woman of very great credibility.
		And the interesting fact was there was no prop wash at all.
		And this thing was, you know, something like 50 feet up.
		So we don't know what it's connected to, the black helicopters.
		The fact that there's a cover-up, I have absolutely no doubt about that.
		And the fact that people seem to have been followed around in particular cases, as I mentioned, the Debbie Jordan case, is one that's quite strong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No doubt about the fact that the government knows.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, not at all.
		So the point is here that, well, incidentally, on the government knowing, Gordon Cooper, the astronaut who was on the cover of Time magazine twice, described on television not too long ago the fact that he had viewed a film of UFO landed on tripod landing gear, something like 35 to 40 feet away from the guard unit at an Air Force base who took the film, and then the thing took off.
		He viewed it, sent it to the Pentagon, and never heard anything more about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you an interesting little story.
		I'm about to interview Story Musgraves.
		Story just did a kind of a lecture in Hawaii, and at the very end of the lecture, he put up a picture of a typical gray as the last slide.
		And without a smile on his face, he said, by the way, these guys are real.
		And he wouldn't say anything else, but intriguing, huh?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, there's no doubt about that.
		Plus, I might have mentioned it once I did the, oh, now I'm trying to think of the show on W, I mean, the CNBC, Charles Gordon.
		At the end of the show, he said very, very directly that a number of years before, he had been having dinner with Senator Bradley, Bill Bradley from New Jersey, along with Dustin Hoffman.
		And Dustin Hoffman had simply out of Westfield asked Bill Bradley, was there anything to the reports that we had crashed wreckage and bodies and so forth.
		And Bradley said, absolutely, it's true.
		Bill Bradley's not a clown clown type.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
		East of the Rockies, you're on there with Bud Hopkins.
		Not a lot of time.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, Arthur's Dave from Cape Coral, Florida.
		Hi, Dave.
		I bought Mr. Hopkins' book, Whitney Today, and I was wondering, I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but where are the aliens coming from?
		And since interstellar space is such great distances, what are their methods of travel and propulsion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think you know the answers?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I know the answers to none of those questions.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I want to make it clear that Alpha Centauri, which is the closest star, if I'm, suddenly I'm not sure, I think it is Alpha Centuri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe it is.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It's the closest star.
		That it seems now to have a planetary system.
		And if it has a planet which supports life and so forth, and it's an advanced culture and so on and so forth technologically, and they could travel at the speed of light, they could get here in nine years.
		Half the speed of light.
		Half the speed of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nine years.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Nine years.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't seem too impossible to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, indeed not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on there with Bud Hopkins.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, I'm calling from Boise, Idaho.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		And I've heard Bud mention before a nine-year-old girl that was rushed to an emergency room after she was slashed on the side of her neck during an addiction.
unidentified		Did you hear about that?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Now, tell me this again.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Which case, a nine-year-old girl?
unidentified		Yes, and she was slashed down the side of her neck.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, yes, yes, that's the Florida case, yes.
unidentified		Okay, I wanted to know what happened with that when she went to the emergency room.
unidentified		What did the doctor say?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a complex story, but essentially, they put something like 15 or 18 stitches in her across her chin and below her lower lip and goes around the side of her face.
		I was a little girl, and I've seen the scar, which is quite noticeable.
		Nobody knew what it was.
		It was sewn up.
		Perhaps they didn't actually need to do that because these things seemed to almost heal miraculously.
		But the problem was that there was the suspicion that, well, the story that came out was the family where this happened said that they had a big Labrador retriever, which is very sleepy.
		And the little girl remembered waking up and seeing this big face looking at her, and that's all she remembered.
		And so the family decided the dog must have taken delicately one big, thick paw and scratched it without waking her up, I should mention, at that point.
		I mean, something that made absolutely no sense, and so the dog was under suspicion, but that literally made no sense to the doctors.
		This was a scalpel-like cut, and the scar is still there, and the little girl is still having experiences.
		But that's an extreme case in the sense that the scar is right on her face and quite noticeable, and quite long.
unidentified		Does that happen often where it's extremely rare?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, extreme.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Look, we're at the end of our time.
		Let me do something productive and give your address here.
		Simply, folks, if you want to get hold of Bud, write to IF, IFIF.
		Box 30233, New York, New York, 10011.
		Is that correct, Bud?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		That's correct, and I thank you very much for presenting that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And your books, of course, are available nationwide, worldwide, any bookstore.
		Go in.
		If they don't have it, they can get it, right?
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
		Bud, it has been a pleasure.
		You've got a lot of traveling to do, and we'll catch up with you on the other side of that, I'm sure.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you very much, Ort.
budd hopkins ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, bye-bye.
unidentified		Good work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, there you go.
		Bud Hopkins, folks.
		And it has been a pleasure.
		I want to take a moment now to say my book, The Quickening, is now generally available nationwide.
		Same deal.
		Go into any bookstore, the bookstore of your choice, and ask for it.
		If they don't have it, they can get it for you.
		It's called The Quickening, and I think it is increasingly important since what was written about, we now appear to be right in the middle of.
		The Quickening by Art Bell.
		If you'd like a copy of this evening's show or any program we do, any Dreamland program or coast with a guest, call 1-800-917-4278.
unidentified		Good night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM 1500.
		KST has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
		Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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