All Episodes
Previous Next
June 22, 1997 - Art Bell
01:01:23
Dreamland with Art Bell - Sheila Ostrander & Lynn Schroeder - Psychic Discoveries
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Hey, this is fascinating also.
The man you're talking about was called Bratislav Kafka.
He was a very well-known sculptor in Czechoslovakia.
He also was a master hypnotist and supposedly had hypnotized over 16,000 people and chose seven of them to be his psychics, or sensitives as he called them.
And he trained these people and kept them in trance, which is why you're not going to do this anymore.
for about 14 to 15 hours a day for some 20 years which wasn't perhaps what you might call the most humane approach but one of his psychics in particular was very good at the moment of death and the moments leading up to it and they postulated something they called soul fluid I don't know what it was but some finer substance and the psychic would start to say when he'd be taken into sick wards which one was going to live and which one was going to die because the soul fluid so to speak I can't quite hear what you're saying.
Soul?
Fluid.
Fluid?
Yeah, well that's their words for it.
I don't know what we would call it.
We might call it the astral body, the subtle body, something like that.
That it starts to withdraw two or three days before death and it moves from the feet up to the head.
Now, some American psychics have seen that too.
Eileen Garrett, who's a very famous American psychic and head of the Parapsychology Institute in New York, she also saw this.
And as this started to move, and it's something many people have noticed, the patient, instead of thinking they were dying necessarily, seemed to get more cheerful, seemed to almost rally.
Right.
A lot of people do that just before they die.
Yes.
And what they saw, his psychics reported, that this fluid or this body moved out and it saw light.
There was always light around.
Now, this is very close to the near-death experience, you're saying that.
Alright, before you go on, I would stop you and I would say that the traditional scientist or medical doctor would say what you ladies are now talking about is nothing more than the body's natural reaction to impending death, and that is the release of protective endorphins.
That's very possible.
Well, this is where I wanted to jump in.
One of the most exciting things that we brought back from Russia the first time was a new form of photography which is done with electricity instead of with light.
And this form of photography can reveal the chi energy of acupuncture.
And using this photography at the moment of death, they can actually track the energy as it leaves the body.
Are you able to technically explain what it is?
You say photography with electricity.
Yes.
How do you do that?
Well, we describe how the instruments are built and also people can buy them today.
They're available here in the United States now.
Anyone can do this and check it out for themselves.
Well, what is it?
I mean... Well, okay.
Karelian photography is named after a husband-wife thing.
It was sort of like the Curies in Russia.
Right.
And it was put in the Book of Adventures and all that sort of stuff.
Very well-known there, not quite well-known over here.
This is a method of photography which is where you put your hand or a leaf or something on a metal plate and put high-frequency electricity through it, and you get an image.
What it seems to show is a corona, many people here would call that an aura, around living objects.
Uh, okay.
Any living object probably would show that.
Maybe it's just electricity.
Even leaves and trees and so forth.
Trees and ants and all that sort of stuff.
And here you have this aura.
But the thing is, whatever it is, it changes with the health of the plant.
It changes with the emotions of people.
Very specific change.
This is a medical incident.
It still is in the Soviet Union.
In fact, I think it was only a couple of years ago they said it was second only to X-rays.
Wow.
For diagnosis.
Quick question.
When somebody dies and they do Krillian photography, what do they see?
They show the lights, they seem to see the lights going out slowly and some movement away from the body.
Now, I don't know if it's purely photography, I don't know if they've ever had a camera where you could track it going off into the great beyond, I really don't know that, but you can certainly see it in leaves and things like that as it moves away.
Now, another thing that goes with this, and let me just go back for just a second to talk, because it's a very nice story of what his psychics saw, and this again, this is what the psychics saw, this is not necessarily proven scientifically, But they also saw, and reported back, and this is in the 1930s, that the dead person then went through what they call, quote, a panoramic review of all their life.
You know, the idea of life's best before my eyes is astounding.
Sure, sure.
Well, what's really extraordinary about this, and this, they wrote this up for years and years in the 30s, this is exactly tallied with the near-death experiences reports now, and there are 18 million or so of those in the country.
Alright, there are so many areas for us to touch on.
There weren't that many. There were probably a few, but we didn't have the instruments to keep people alive, so they
had to.
It's very interesting. It's kind of out of left field confirmation of what a lot of the near-death experiences
are now saying.
Um, alright. There are so many areas for us to touch on.
Um, I want to ask you a little bit about... I cover a lot about UFOs, and boy, do we have a flap going on down in
Phoenix.
I'm sure you've seen a lot about it.
And so, our astronaut reports of UFOs seem very restricted, shielded, protected, put under wraps.
What do we know about what cosmonauts have seen?
Well, here's where the most exciting stuff and some of the most explosive material has been uncovered thanks to the collapse of the Soviet regime.
The KGB files are now starting to filter out and we've got access to quite a number of these reports and it's just, it's a knockout.
First of all, as early as 1989, the Russians reported that aliens had actually landed in the Russian city of Voronezh.
Seven UFOs landed almost simultaneously, one right downtown.
UFOnauts came out of the UFO and walked around downtown in the city and then went back into this vehicle and then flew off again.
The whole city was in a state of just total panic.
It went on for about 10 days, and it was like War of the Worlds, the Oscar, Orson Welles show.
I mean, the people were just absolutely terrified.
So then they brought in top-level scientists from all over the country, whole teams, to start investigating and trying to find out what was going on.
And they brought the geologists, they brought everybody, and they compiled a really fascinating report On exactly what was happening here.
Now wait a minute, that's a gigantic event.
A UFO lands, creatures get out and walk around the town.
That's great.
There have got to be photographs.
Well, I don't know, but it was on the front page of the New York Times, strangely enough.
They picked up a TASS official report of this.
So it went out over the news wires, but pretty much everybody seemed to ignore it over here.
Now further, as more of the UFO files began to be revealed, for example in Hungary, the The Minister of Defense decided that he must go public with some of these because it's become so urgent.
So he began opening the top-secret UFO files and the reports are really pretty stunning.
In fact, he himself had seen a UFO and it was one of the reasons he wanted to reveal some of these long-suppressed and very hard-to-believe details.
But around the time that these aliens landed in Voronezh, There were UFOs swarming over Hungary, and they seemed to be on some kind of surveillance thing related to military installations.
They went from one military installation to another, and they seemed to check out their vehicles, their MiGs, and everything else.
And when the guards tried to get rid of them, they put beams on them that made them sick.
And it was just, oh, it just went on and on.
Then further, more material began to come out.
And one of the most fascinating things is that the cosmonauts are all beginning to talk.
The Ministry of Security of the Russian Federation has opened some of its files, and they said they see there's a detachment of observers from other worlds traveling in near-Earth orbit.
And what they have been able to reveal has come through one of the foremost cosmonauts, in fact, one of the pioneer cosmonauts, His wife has now got the recordings and the photographs and all kinds of details and she came to America some years ago and she just stunned the people when she gave a press conference because she opened the material and she showed, for example, that the Martian probe that the Soviets had sent to the moon Phobos had actually photographed a
Well, a 15-mile-long UFO, and, uh... Well, look, there's no question about that one.
I've got... I've got that photograph.
You do?
Good.
Her name, by the way, was Colonel... is Colonel Marina Popov, and her husband... Popovich.
Popovich.
Victor Popovich, who was a very famous cosmonaut.
And she was a jet pilot herself.
And she also has a lot of stories that she's revealed, documented, reports from other jet pilots, but also from cosmonauts.
She has tapes that they play, Cosmonauts talking to the ground, who are in the space stations, all that sort of stuff is all coming out.
I really would like to get my hands on some of that.
Now, as you know, we've got a probe that's July 4th due to hit Mars.
And I say hit Mars because it's going to go blasting in and then go bouncing down on the Martian surface.
Do you all think that probe is going to make it or do you think something will go wrong?
I don't know.
I like to be an optimist, but I suspect maybe something will go wrong.
Uh-huh.
All right, ladies, hold on.
We'll get back to you in a moment.
From behind the Iron Curtain, we now learn.
I'm Art Bell.
This is Dreamland.
Very secret.
For so many years, from the Soviet Union, it's called Psychic Discoveries.
The Iron Curtain lifted by Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder, who are my guests.
And we'll get back to them, and we will let you know how to get this book.
I believe there is an operative 800 number, as there always seems to be for this sort of thing.
Psychic Discoveries Lifted from Beyond the Iron Curtain.
Ladies, I was in Moscow, as I mentioned to you earlier, and my sense of the country was, yes, it's not the old Soviet Union, But, you know, I had lunch in the Kremlin and all that sort of thing, and my sense was that even though they welcome tourists and they love hard currency money, they still watch you like a hawk.
And so I wonder, how was your experience as you were over there doing all this investigation?
What was your sense of the current state of Russia?
Well, I mean, it was most Incredible, because we were there through the Cold War, and that was, well, they had spies everywhere, and there were people located everywhere watching everything.
It was a really, it was pretty scary actually, and it was not easy to get a lot of this material out.
I mean, we had to resort to using diplomatic pouches from Other countries and all sorts of things.
Oh, ladies, you're lucky you didn't end up behind bars.
That's right.
We could have been in Siberia making chess pieces right now.
I've got a beautiful chess board.
They have been made by UCLA students because about the time we got out of Russia, they got two students.
Did they really?
They were sent to making chess pieces.
The other interesting thing, when we were there for that conference during the Cold War, It was broken up in the middle.
People had come, about eight Westerners, but from all the communist countries.
There were about 200 people, and all of a sudden it was attacked by Pravda.
So then it was switched, the last two days, to the Czech Embassy, because that was a time when the Czechs were more liberal, which probably was a great political mistake for many of the Russians to get there.
But they wanted to get the information out, and getting back to that question of good and evil that we had talked about before, what we kept getting from the Soviet scientists Was these powers, these biological, natural powers, must be used for good, not for biological weapons?
Well, they said it so many times, you began to wonder what the guys we weren't meeting were using it for.
And people really went out on a limb to give us stuff.
We were given loads of bouquets, which is very common in Russia, to greet visitors with flowers.
But in the middle of ours, which filled the whole bathtub, were manuscripts.
That's how we got a lot of manuscripts.
I figured microphones.
Yes.
And actually, when they came up to our rooms, some of the scientists had talked to us, just like the movies, which started to make us laugh.
They'd go in and turn on all the water and say, we have to turn on the water because of the microphones, which fortunately struck us funny.
But it was very tricky.
But so many people went out on a limb that we kind of felt the responsibility to try to carry the word out.
And, in fact, a couple of our sources, a lot of Americans then went over, and Westerners after they read our first book, and they were fired from their jobs.
One was sent into exile and put in hard labor for about a year and a half.
Another one was denied his Ph.D., that kind of stuff.
So they really did go out on a limb trying to bring word out that, one, these powers are real, and, two, we ought to use them for good.
Well, have you been back since the Cold War?
Well, no, because we were always told we shouldn't come back.
I don't know, we probably could go back now.
But we were named, along with Ed Mitchell, the astronaut, in the premier Marxist journal of ideology as anti-Soviet warmongers.
So, we were always told not to go back.
Well, I must tell you, it's probably a good warning, because what I told you is true.
Even though they say it's over, I guarantee you, ladies, you're watched like a hawk.
Every move you make over there is watched.
If you're in a group, there is somebody assigned from the state to watch you.
And so I'd be cautious about going back.
And I'm sure you're very thoughtful on the matter.
We are.
The other thing that's happened that was good is some of our friends there, a scientist, managed to get out.
Some are in Greece.
Some have been able to come over here on visas to visit, so we've been keeping up.
It's just that we didn't really want to go back and keep up there.
All right.
Richard Hoagland, a frequent guest on my program, has made some incredible statements about artificial structures, crystalline or glass-like, on the Moon.
And, interestingly, in your material here, it talks about Russian analysis of space probe Discovered artificial structures on the moon.
Same thing Richard talks about.
What do the Russians claim they have found?
Well, these are really, really fascinating.
We were able to get this material out.
Some of it is from the Soviet probe Luna 9 that landed at the Ocean of Storms.
Yes.
And brought back, sent back photographs.
And during the photographing process, apparently the The probe shifted slightly, so what they were able to get from that was, by putting it together, they could get actual pictures in 3D.
So we put them in the book in a way, if you put a card between the two pictures, you can actually get a 3D view of these very strange structures.
And what they are, they look like a landing run.
They're round, equidistant stones.
Each stone is exactly the same distance apart.
They're carved with a circular design on two sides and they extend for miles across the terrain of the Moon.
Now that's one thing as a stone runway, but even more stunning, they brought back photographs that were taken by one of the American probes.
They did the analysis of this and the discovery seems to show that there are obelisks on the Moon.
And that these obelisks are arranged in the same structure as the pyramids in Egypt.
It is just really incredibly fascinating.
Oh my.
It really sounds as though you should be talking to Richard Hoagland.
I think so.
That's just incredible.
I mean, in a way, we have learned more from the Russians than our own government appears willing to tell us.
Isn't that fascinating?
They are the closed society, supposedly.
Or at least were, and really still are.
So, why would that be?
How can that be?
Well, I think that they feel a certain pressure to get some of this material out.
One of the other curious things, one of the foremost One of the experts in Russia on the UFO phenomenon is an oceanographer, Dr. Vladimir Azaza, and he has got material about the American astronauts that has never been released over here.
They got it from their space program and he said not only did all their cosmonauts see
UFOs, but that Neil Armstrong had radioed a message to mission control that there were
two large mysterious objects watching them when they landed on the moon.
Really?
And of course, they all deny seeing absolutely anything.
Mitchell, Armstrong, Olsen, they're all denying it.
Well, I've interviewed Mitchell and of course he will talk of many things, but he flatly
denies that he has ever seen anything.
That's right.
Now, Cooper has made a couple of interesting statements.
And so has O'Leary.
O'Brien O'Leary.
Oh, yes, of course.
Yes.
Well, an interesting thing about Mitchell, though, he was at a meeting, which you probably know about, that went on in April, I think, with Dr. Greer from one of the UFO groups.
Right.
And they briefed a lot of people in Washington, in the Pentagon, Congressional offices, etc.
Correct.
And Mitchell had recently said, again, that, oh, I have an open mind and I've never seen any public information that really convinces me.
This is the operating part here, operative part.
He believed that there was private information that he was privy to that was convincing.
So he's almost starting to talk, not quite.
Well, apparently they've got over 100 witnesses with smoking gun evidence that are prepared to come forward and they would be prepared to testify to a congressional hearing.
It'd be kind of fun if the Soviets or the former Soviets pushed them into it, but I don't know.
Um, so your general sense is, in one way, they're a lot more open than we are, and I still really don't know why.
I mean, we are supposed to be the open society, and yet they're getting this kind of information out willingly, and we appear to be hiding it.
I think they've also had a more friendly idea about UFOs than we have.
When we were over there even years ago, We met a lot of very sober professors from the University of Moscow and places, and they were all talking about the UFOs had come to help us.
In fact, one was even told us it's like our mother and father in the sky.
They will not let us destroy ourselves.
Now, I think that would be nice if that were true, but I don't know.
But it's always been an upbeat.
It's almost as if, at least before the fall of the Soviet, that what we might call spiritual longings or something went into their ideas of people coming from outer space or beings from outer space.
It was sort of a transcendent thing.
And they also had this idea of, oh, the visitation of the gods years ago, which is certainly common now, but at that time it wasn't.
And they had done lots of work, archaeological work, serious scientific work, big conferences on ancient structures, how they had perhaps been seeded from outer space.
In fact, they even got it, they had articles on Jesus Christ cosmonaut, which is, not to offend anybody, but that's
the way they were talking.
Because they believed, sort of the Vandanaan idea of gods from outer space, but they did an awful lot of work on that,
archaeologically.
Well, the Russians have not been bound by the same moral, ethical considerations that we are in the more sensitive
areas of this kind of research.
You know, trying to stop hearts, no problem.
Volunteer, please.
People were expendable who were the research subjects, and in fact, one of the big fights that went on in Russia was At some of the institutes that KGB wanted them to be even tougher and go faster and faster, and then finally, the scientists rebelled and said that these were depraved, inhumane experiments and they wouldn't do them anymore, so the KGB just fired them all.
Hey, of course!
They were all unemployed the next day for complaining.
They were having to do depraved work.
Well, you almost wonder if they have not attempted long-distance killing, that sort of thing.
I've always wondered, for example, if it would not be possible, at a great distance, Saddam Hussein is not one of our favorite guys, all you would have to do is weaken one little blood vessel in the brain, and then, you know, he'd be gone.
I believe that even our government... In fact, I have an easier time these days believing that our government has engaged in this kind of research.
This is not your area.
You, I know, talk about Russia and the Iron Curtain and all that, but do either one of you know how much we have done in these areas?
Yeah, we've done quite a bit.
That was what was interesting to us.
When you're talking about influencing somebody at a distance, it is the Premier Russian experiment.
They did it for 70 years.
Remote influencing, right?
Yeah, yeah.
We called it the telepathic knockout because it started out as an experiment where you could throw somebody into a trance or make them go to sleep as you choose to look at it from a distance.
Really?
And I think it started in the 1920s at a big psychiatric conference where they managed to stop a woman in mid-waltz step and she went into President Reagan a few times.
Well, people did wonder about a lot of this.
But this went on for years and years and years.
One of their most famous psychics, probably one of the best psychics of the 20th century, was Wolf Messing.
And he was known, he was like the shadow.
He could cloud men's minds.
And did weird things, like Stalin put him to tests of, could you get into my dacha?
Nobody can get into Stalin's dacha, obviously.
He did.
How did he do it?
He said he influenced the minds of the guards by saying, I am Beria, I am Beria, who was the head of the secret police, and no one would have stopped.
Now, all this is documented.
Even in the old days, it was documented.
Another test that Dr. Vasiliev, who, again, was the father of parapsychology there, did, was to influence people's body movements, or having hysterically paralyzed people lift their arms with this telepathic hypnosis.
Really?
From room to room, from building to building, they did it over a 1,200-mile distance, over and over and over again.
So you have to kind of wonder.
Obviously, we weren't meeting the people who were going to run up and tell us, yes, we're trying to knock out President Nixon or we're trying to kill President Reagan, but they certainly had always experimented with this kind of thing.
Well, what's come out now, now that the Soviet regime is gone, Is that the KGB people now, KGB Major General Oleg Kalugin has now revealed that the Russian scientists were successful in developing psychic warfare devices.
And that they had 500 million ruble budget, I mean with enormous amount of money thrown into it.
And what they hoped was that they could create exotic weapons with which the West was totally unfamiliar and would never be aware that any of these things were turned on them.
And they were able to explore the mysterious powers that certain people held.
And they were able to find a way to simulate them with machines.
Well, when you look at... Then you could turn them on, you see.
When you look at some events that have occurred in this country, where there is much violence, where leaders have been assassinated, you might stop for a moment and wonder if there was remote influencing involved.
Yeah, you might.
I think particularly Steer Hand, Steer Hand, because the Russians were very into what we would call mind control.
They called it something else.
But influencing people with signals over telephones, creating, in effect, Manchurian candidates with sort of multiple personalities.
So if you got caught as a spy, you didn't know you were a spy, that was the other personality.
They have been probably the premier experts in that.
On the other hand, so have we.
I think some of our government agencies went down the slippery slope a little bit in the Cold War trying to figure out what the Russians were doing, where they were using such things as microwaves.
This was done at John Hopkins and other places, and they found that they could beam microwaves into people's minds and brains and you could hear they carried a voice.
Well, as a matter of fact, there was a Regarding the beaming of microwaves into our embassy, I believe.
That's right.
Sure.
That's right.
That was part of this experimentation.
And they were able to develop it to the point where you could beam specific frequencies at people that would cause them to be very fearful or anxious or have insomnia and depression or suicidal thoughts.
And even lead to cerebral thrombosis.
They said that he could actually kill somebody doing this.
Really?
And then what our friend there, who worked with us so closely, Edward Nelmoff, has been asking is, where are those weapons now that the Soviet Union's gone?
Where did they go?
Well, again, I argue, ladies, it's not really gone.
Uh, they have pulled in their fleet, their budgets are not what they used to be, but trust me when I tell you, this is not the open country they would have you believe that it is.
Mm-hmm, that I believe, but I think it's just different guys are, different thugs are at the head.
You've got it.
If you want to put it that way.
They're doing better PR and all of that, but believe me, it is still basically a closed society, and I'm talking now about the government.
Yeah, great.
It was interesting that I think it was Dr. Gottlieb, who was head of some of the sort of stuff for the CIA, came out in front of a Senate committee, I think back in the 80s or late 70s, saying that microwaves were sent to the embassy, and when Nixon's party went over there, they all had very strange reactions.
Also, I'm sure you're familiar, because I think they've been on your program, that a lot of the guys who were in our Stargate program Monigal and Buchanan and some of those people.
I have almost interviewed everybody that was in Stargate.
Stargate, of course, was the remote viewing program.
Our own government spent $20 million on it.
And I imagine our program was infinitesimal compared to the Russians.
I think that's true.
But when you talked about Hussein, I thought of that because I think it was Ed Dames or one of them that Hussein supposedly thought was trying to influence him and make him sick.
Whether that's true, I have no idea.
Huh.
Well, there are many kinds of influencing, and even if you could not make somebody sick or kill them, if you could make them influence a certain political decision, let's put it that way, that would be of great, great national security value to us or to the Russians, yes?
Yes, yeah, for sure.
All right.
Ladies, hold on.
When we come back, we're going to open up the phone lines.
My guests are Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
We're doing without the constraints of the moral questions that we struggle with here and the ethical questions we struggle with in the U.S.
about doing these sorts of things.
They had none of those problems.
None.
So they went straight ahead in psychic research And they seem to have developed quite a bit more of it than we have.
My guests are Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder, who wrote a book called Psychic Discoveries, The Iron Curtain Lifted.
And I want to give them an opportunity now to tell you how to get that book.
There is, as always, an 800 number of some sort, right?
Right.
There's some very nice people at Greenleaf who agreed to stay up if anybody wants to call.
Okay.
And I hope they do.
It's 1-800-905-8367.
That's 1-800-905-8367 and they're waiting.
And they're there now?
Yeah, they are there right now.
It's a pretty good-sized book, isn't it?
Yeah, it is.
Almost, what, 400 pages?
Yeah, you're really getting two for the price of one.
We're trying to give everybody a little benefit there.
All right, this is an awful... How long, by the way, did you all work on this book?
Oh, an awfully long time.
We studied Russia before we went.
It was sort of like being criminologists or something.
And fortunately, Sheila speaks Russian and was reading Russian, so that helped a lot.
And it took us a couple years to write it because we had so much research.
That was one of the nicer things that ever happened to me.
I happened to be in Washington.
We were talking at a Congressional hearing, some of these things, some years ago.
And a man came up and said that He had been on the bio-magnetic desk of the CIA for the Soviet Union.
A lot of things that we would call psychic went under bio-magnetism.
And he said, we checked out your references and we had every one but one, you beat us by one.
So that took us quite a... One, you beat us by one.
So that took us quite a long time.
And the last year or two, we've been keeping up with our old contacts and some new contacts, so it's quite a life-long work, actually.
So then, Sheila, you're the one who speaks Russian?
Uh-huh, yeah.
And so you were very important to have along, I guess.
Yeah, I'm smart in my collaborative.
You did a lot of translating, yes.
I'm unilingual, so I just got the right person.
Are Russians generally very open about this kind of thing, or do they... You know, in America, when you talk about ufology, when you talk about nearly any area of psychic realm, you are criticized.
As a matter of fact, there is a Phoenix City Council woman, right now, who has had the audacity to speak up And ask that there be an investigation into the Phoenix UFO sightings.
And she is being roundly ridiculed and put down by her colleagues.
What happens in Russia?
Yeah, I think we call it the snicker effect here.
Yeah.
And so much is kept off the mainstream media.
That's why shows like yours are so important.
In Russia, it certainly seemed to be more open.
Partially this may be because it's an amalgam, really, of very ancient cultures.
And people kept many of those beliefs.
For example, the early parapsychologists, like Dr. Ryan in this country, would have slit their throats before they ever admitted they'd had a psychic experience.
Yes.
Whereas many of the top Russian scientists, particularly the physicists and biochemists we met, had all had or knew somebody in their family who'd had a psychic experience and got them interested, and they would talk about it.
So I think it's a much more natural thing over there.
It's old mystic Russia.
In fact, even during communism, when we were there, you'd walk the streets late at night, because actually nobody wanted to go home, because there wasn't enough room to sit down.
And you'd sit around in cafes, and they were always talking about the soul of man.
And this was not something I heard very much in New York at that time.
So there was kind of an overall layer of kind of mystic sensibility, I suppose.
At the same time, they were trying to become very scientific.
So it's an interesting combination, where We tried to take the old understandings or beliefs, superstitions in some cases, but also folk cures and stuff like that, and understand them scientifically.
So it's a nice combination, actually.
One of the things you liked, you were talking about PK, but PK also has to do with healing.
And they've done major studies on healers, photographing healers' hands with the Kirlian photographer
we talked about, even to the point of being able to figure out who is a genuine healer, who
isn't, which is very helpful, and finding people who probably
could be trained to be healers.
One of the experiments they did with that was photographing the aura, so to speak, of wheat,
growing wheat, when people put their hands on it.
And if it was a healer, it would brighten up.
If it was a potential healer, it would brighten a little.
If it was a non-healer, nothing would happen.
All right.
We're about to go to the phones here, ladies.
East of the Rockies is the only number not given in the little number thing.
It's 1-800-825-5033.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
Going to the phones in a second.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
Going to the phones in a second.
But this question for either one of you.
My husband and I were present when my uncle suffered respiratory failure.
As my husband was bending over him, a clear drop of fluid seemed to come from the ceiling and landed on the arm of his sweatshirt.
We both noticed it at that time.
My uncle was resuscitated by the fire department, but later died at the hospital.
As the sweatshirt faded over the years of washing, That spot remained, and was always darker than the rest of the shirt.
Have either one of your guests ever heard of this?
Uh, no, not really, but it sort of fits with things that have gone back for a hundred years in the annals of the American Society of Psychic Research of odd things happening when people die.
I'm sure people have heard stories about the picture fell off the wall, or the grandfather clock that stopped when the old man died, and sometimes there seem to be signals like that.
I don't know what they mean.
All right, let's take some calls.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Good evening, Art.
This is Tony in Las Vegas listening to you on KXNT.
Hi, Sheila.
Hi, Lynn.
Hi.
I got a sorted question for you here.
With all these self-acclaimed psychics out in the field, and I'm not talking about the ones that work for top secret black projects, Why do you think it is they never make waves discussing the inner workings of, say, super technology or the engines that propel extraterrestrial-driven crafts, or their biological or otherwise makeup of their bodies, in detail, and then publicize it?
Well, I think, yeah, some of the people that work for the remote viewing have been trying to, apparently, besides them, I don't know.
I know there's some channelers that certainly bring through information.
But, you know, who's to say?
We are familiar with one of the famous psychics in Japan who supposedly brings through information about propulsion devices, what these people are like.
It's just there's no way to have a touchstone for it.
I think that was why we were so interested in the scientific work in Russia, because at least you could know what's established and what might be possible.
And you could weed out, maybe, the better psychics from the other psychics.
All right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with both of my guests, Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi.
Hello, Art, and to your guests, my name is Jack.
I'm in Florida.
Hi, Jack.
And I got a question.
I just got through reading one of your other books there, the Super Learning Book, and noticed in it about a fellow by the name of Mine Razzle that taught Course on ESP, but I have another question that I'd like to ask also is In your book you talked about force the super learning book that I'm talking about is you talked about force the ability to learn quicker using the super learning techniques and as a matter of fact, I've ordered one of the Spanish tape packages and trying it the question is is has there been any experiments done on
with a person put into the deepest state of hypnosis, they call it the somnambulist state,
and given information at that state and told to remember it.
In other words, like a feeding to three takes full of information.
Is that anything like it has ever been tried?
Alright, first let us begin with super learning.
I meant to ask about that. What is super learning?
Well, the seeds of it came from our trip to Russia.
We met Dr. Georgi Lazonov in Moscow, and he's Bulgarian.
He was an M.D., he is an M.D.
psychiatrist, and he had developed an entire system of learning called suggestology, and he used suggestion instead of hypnosis.
Now, I'll get to the caller's question.
With this, and we thought this was really communist hype, they were saying people can learn 2 to 10 to 50 times faster than before, and remember what they learned, and really feel good after a hard day's work.
Well, that sounded pretty nuts to us, but it was improv'd in other places, so we followed it up for about a month in Bulgaria.
And eventually, some very pioneering teachers over here tried these methods, and one thing led to another, so we finally wrote a book on it when we figured out that it could work in Des Moines and Toronto and Atlanta, as well as in East Berlin and Moscow.
Sure.
And this is a method of dipping into that 95 or 90% of yourself that scientists always say we don't use.
It works in various ways.
The two keys of it are music.
There's a very special kind of Baroque slow music that balances the body and appears to enhance the mind.
In other words, at the University of Iowa, they did tests and found that with this particular type of Baroque, people learned 24% faster, remembered, had long-term retention 26% better than before.
It's used for all kinds of factual learning.
It's now going into business training all over the world.
AT&T, IBM, that sort of stuff.
But to get to your caller's question... A deep state of hypnosis.
Yes, this is not.
Now, Lazanov, the man who did this, was a very well-known hypnotist, and a good one.
But he began to feel that suggestion, as he called it, in the waking state would work just as well as deep trance, and would anchor The information much better in people and also they were not under the control of the hypnotist so he started what is called, at least over there, Suggestology.
Yes, you can do it in hypnosis and there are people that have done it but first of all it's kind of unwieldy to try to do that in classrooms and things like that because for one it's probably illegal over here and two he felt it was better to do it in a lighter state.
Now there's another man that we met in Moscow, Rykov, who did a thing called artificial Reincarnation.
He was quite a well-known psychiatrist.
Whoa!
Artificial reincarnation.
And that is the deep hypnosis, the synambulism.
And if you had walked into one of his classes, he would have introduced you to Rembrandt or Raphael.
What he did is he put people in very deep hypnosis and said, you are Rembrandt, you are Rembrandt.
Okay, draw, paint.
Now, they didn't become Rembrandts, but they certainly drew a lot better than they'd ever drawn before.
And gradually, he would wean them back into a conscious understanding of their talents.
In other words, the talents, after about three or four months, would start to float up into consciousness.
It was a quick course in art.
Instead of sitting in a museum and copying the All-Masters, you became an All-Master.
To the point where it was kind of funny, where they'd have two people thought they were Raphael or Rembrandt and would get in a fight, kind of thing.
But that... Rykov also worked in one of the more notorious... Funny, but interesting.
Hold on a sec.
Now...
Do you believe that they really are tapping some sort of ability from the spirit of Rembrandt?
Or do you believe that they are simply suggesting to the person that they have a Rembrandt-like talent?
And then developing that, in other words, a thing you can do with hypnosis, which is it you're suggesting?
Probably the latter.
I think it's like getting rid of all those blocks that keep most of us from doing anything.
And people have a natural talent, which began, you know, you're taught in kindergarten, don't paint outside the lines.
Well, people were able to go outside the lines.
There was some talk and some thought that Oh, from a Jungian perspective, that maybe they were dipping into the collective unconscious and kind of connecting to a strain of Rembrandt or Picasso or somebody like that.
But it was pretty much, I think, putting people into deep sleep.
They also did this with alcoholics.
They did it with people where they did curious experiments, like people thought they were the Queen of England.
But if you think about it, it would be a very nice way to take dissidents and turn them into rather nice people.
Yeah, and I can imagine that, frankly, would be the aim of the Russians, of the Soviets.
Well, he did work at one of the institutes.
More than it would be to create, although they certainly are artists over there.
West of the Rockies, you are on the air with my two guests, Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi.
Hi.
Where are you?
Are you talking to me?
Yes, that would be me.
Hi, happy birthday, Art.
Oh, thank you.
You're welcome.
Sheila, I had read a book that my grandmother had over 40 years called Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, and I just wondered why this sudden burst, because it told about experiments This book is over 40 years old that the Russians had done, such as taking a mother rabbit down in a submarine, 10,000 feet under the ocean, killing each baby each hour, and the mother would go nuts.
Really?
Yes.
They took a mother rabbit down in a submarine, and each hour upon the hour, they would kill one of her babies, and she would just go nuts.
And then the other experiment that I remember, I only remember two because I read the book a long, long time ago.
Not to tell my age, but a man went in a room and flashed a plant.
And then he left the room, and there were other plants in there, and then people lined up.
And everyone that walked in the room, and they had these plants hooked up to electrolytes, the plants didn't react until this man that had slashed this one plant came in, and all the plants would shriek.
Oh my.
And this book is very, very old, so I was just curious if they had, um, read that book.
Knowing, knowing... Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain.
Have you, do you know that book?
Yes, what we've done is we've done an abridgment of that book and put it in with this book because now that the Soviet regime has collapsed, we've been able to get some of the additional work and find out what was really going on.
Some of the stuff that you mentioned happened to be some of the military research that was being done and they told us, you know, there are very secret labs Hidden away in far Kazakhstan or in Siberia, and there's really incredible stuff happening there, but you will never know about that.
And now that the Soviet regime is gone, some of this material is filtering out.
Thanks.
Go ahead.
...and Lynn Schroeder, and their book is Psychic Discoveries, the Iron Curtain Lifted.
...weather experiment, which has had a great effect on the weather.
One of them has to do with the They've been heating up the ionosphere and they've been beaming this around the world and there's been all kinds of evidence over the years that the Russian experiments doing that have caused enormous changes in the weather and now in Alaska they're setting up a system to do the same thing on this continent and perhaps this is going to have even more
Tremendous impact on the weather.
Of course, we have what we call Project Harp in Alaska.
And speaking of Alaska to Alaska and my first time caller line, you're on the air with Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi.
Hi, this is Diana from Fairbanks.
Fairbanks, Alaska.
Way up there.
Yes.
Beautiful weather.
We have had a lot of contact with Russians since the opening up of the Soviet Union.
We had occasion to have a laser physicist stay with us for about four months.
Really?
And he was working prior to the breakup at one of the military institutes in Leningrad.
And now he's doing light laser shows and he's been totally privatized.
However, he would never say anything to us about what he had done in, you know, these institutes while they were military.
And I'm wondering if you would know anything about what they were doing.
Well, there were a couple of very famous military institutes.
I'm not sure what they were doing with lasers.
I know what they were doing with psychics.
My impression was that they were so theoretical that they were pretty much working in the abstract, that they didn't have too much to do that was really practical.
Well, that may well be true with the laser technology, because in many ways they didn't have the equipment that we had.
They had a lot of problems with that.
Though, one of the reasons they went into the psychic work was because they thought it was practical.
Apart from military, because I don't want to demonize the Russians, which we're starting to do here.
There were a lot of good Russians who were trying... Oh no, he was a lovely, lovely person.
Who were trying to do quite nice things.
Learn to heal, learn to show the rapport they call telepathy, bio-rapport, how we all have relationships.
Unconscious telepathy, how it would be good to understand that.
Many other things.
The use in dowsing, for example, where they did use lasers to some extent.
They had made it geology in dowsing, for example.
That was done in Moscow, Leningrad, and then out in the field in all the great Russian resource areas.
So there was a lot of... The urge was practical.
It was military on one hand, but it was also practical in other ways.
I don't know what your friend was doing, but I'm glad he was a nice guy.
He was a lovely man.
Thank you.
I'm sure that's true, and I'm sure the individual Russians pretty much were good people, like people everywhere.
It was the government, particularly at the time that you were there, that I think had interest in areas of psychic research that we might not like.
Yeah, I think that's why they funded it to such a great extent.
And what's so wonderfully ironic about this is work that truly was funded probably for not very nice reasons at all has come up and proven a couple things that we are perhaps we have a non-material aspect to ourselves it's come up with things that are basically spiritual because we've just sort of touched on a bunch of experiments but what they seem to be showing is that we are all connected rabbit to rabbit person grass plants there is a connection and that is the basis of most religions that we are there's no separation we are one
It's the basis of the Golden Rule, and the basis of what you do counts, that kind of thing.
It's essentially a spiritual idea, and it's like, out of bad came good, because this is from the point of hard scientists and military people.
And I think Lynn Buchanan with Stargate said something rather like that, too, that with their training in remote viewing, they again came to the point of understanding that human beings have a non-material nature, and also that if you connect the conscious and unconscious, which all these studies are trying to do, You can transform people and possibly transform society.
Alright, well if I were to put you on the spot as somebody who would be a very fundamentalist religious type person would and I would say you had better tell me this power comes from God or I'm going to tell you it comes from the devil.
How do you react?
Well, everything comes from God would be my initial reaction.
That would be the safe one.
Yeah, how are you going to react to that one?
Right.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with my guests, Sheila Ostrander and Len Schroeder.
Hi.
Hello.
Yeah, my first name is Walter, and I was calling to see what kind of hard evidence our government might have on the existence of God and something that scares them.
And I believe I channel the Holy Spirit, so I'm kind of looking forward to seeing if Mary and God and the crew are coming back.
Walter, where are you?
Bowery near Washington.
All right.
Ladies, I channeled God.
Well, I am a great skeptic of channelers.
It is the one area that I think there is probably more room for fraud than nearly any other area.
And I wonder how you feel about it.
Well, I don't know about channeling God.
I think that's a difficult question, and I have no idea who's doing that and who isn't.
And very often, a lot of people say they are, and I think in all the wars I've ever heard about, each side thought they were getting through to God when he was on their side or she was on their side.
What I do think is certainly many people dip into knowledge that is... I've got to ask you to get good and close to your phone.
You're getting a little hard to hear.
I think a lot of people are able to dip into knowledge that is outside their normal consciousness.
If you want to call that going into the collective unconscious, or picking up someone else's thoughts, or being moved by spirit, I'm not sure we can tell the difference.
I'm not sure we can either.
Those of faith would tell you absolutely what they think.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi.
Hi, this is Kate from Maine, and before I go to my quick question, I just want to make two observations.
One is that in 92 and 93, I was in Bulgaria, and the one thing I thought was very interesting was what I observed was a comfortable parallel that existed between the Orthodox religion and those that attended the Church, and folk cures, and healings, astrology, numerology, Seeking psychics and all of that.
And then the other observation I had, too, was that I made a lot of really good friends in Bulgaria, and I love the area and the people.
And I also, towards the end of my stay there, felt a little paranoid, because there were times when I thought there was something amiss in my office.
Even though I wasn't quite sure what it was, it just seemed like someone had been in there.
Sure.
Anyway, my question is, I don't know if you'd mentioned this before in the first hour, but I wondered if the recent sightings of the U.F.O.
and particularly that March 13th that has been on the national news recently, if any of those sightings coincided with anything over in Russia or Eastern Europe, were there similar descriptions of the U.F.O.s?
For instance, that boomerang shape with the lights along the side that we saw.
And the triangles, yes.
Alright, good question.
What about that?
Yes, their descriptions are similar.
In other words, they've got a group of... their data matches.
In other words, they're seeing very similar craft.
And also, one of the researchers said one of the unique capabilities of these craft is that they can transmorph, they can change their shapes.
Yes.
And assume other shapes.
Shapeshifters.
So they may be one shape for a while and then they change and they're another shape.
Shapeshifters.
So these craft descriptions do match.
And then I'm very interested in your caller's experiences in Bulgaria.
Actually, in Bulgaria, there was one of the most famous prophetesses of the entire Soviet bloc.
Her name was Vanga Dimitrova, and she apparently gave readings for Gorbachev and famous celebrities from the West, as well as the president of Bulgaria and all kinds of Regular people from all over the world, and she just died last year, and she was celebrated as one of the great treasures of the country.
Well, alright, let me approach another subject, again going back to the cosmonauts for a second.
They're talking, and our astronauts hint at things.
You know, they will make intriguing statements that seem to suggest there is more that, you know, things they have not told.
In fact, a lot of our astronauts, frankly, have had lots of marital difficulties, alcoholism, things that would suggest they know things they can't tell, and it has affected them psychologically.
What would be the chances of getting some cosmonauts who will talk to come over here And talk.
Fantastic idea.
I think you might get some, because people in Russia are in hard times right now.
Yes, they are.
They sell their hockey uniforms, etc., etc.
Yep, yep.
Maybe you should invite them over.
Invite one!
Or get them on the web, anyway.
Well, if you could get me some names.
You know, I'm in touch with a lot of people who have money, and they put on these UFO conferences, and I can tell you right now that getting a cosmonaut who's willing to talk over here would not We'll work on it.
Okay.
All right, let's do it.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi, thank you for letting me be on the air with you.
I enjoy your program.
Thank you.
Where are you?
I'm from Linwood, Washington.
My first name is Mike.
Okay, Mike.
I have a question first, and then I have a real quick comment.
My question is, when I was about 22 years old, I lost my grandfather, and I was very close to him.
And then one day, I used to fiddle around with the guitar, and I was singing a song to him, and I pictured him in my mind being somewhere up above.
It was no particular place, just up above.
Sure.
And I felt a tap on my shoulder.
And my question is, is that just my mind acting, or could that have actually been happening?
And then my comment is, Art, do you like a song called The Highwayman?
I do.
Does that hit the spot or what?
I went out and I went and got that CD.
That is one good song.
Well, it's one of the reasons I interviewed Willie Nelson for five hours.
Right.
What an incredible man.
Yes, it hits the spot.
Of course it does.
Thank you.
It's a song about reincarnation.
I don't know if you gals have ever heard it.
I have heard it, yes.
Yeah, it's really, it does hit the spot.
Alright, with respect to Concentration on, and then contact from beyond.
A tap on the shoulder?
What do you think?
I don't know.
It could be or it couldn't be.
That's one of the problems with this.
It's the person themselves, I think, has to decide which way they want to go with this.
But there is something new, more or less new, that we did not get from the Russians, but from some other people, which is Electronic way to try to communicate with the dead, and it's just been going on in Europe like crazy.
Electronic?
Yes, it's called electronic voice phenomena.
It's been going on in Europe for about 20 years.
It's even on television over there.
Is this the business where you take a tape recorder?
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Uh-huh.
And there's a lot of work being done on it.
And what's nice about it, however, is you can just sit there to your heart's content and try it.
And if you get voices through and you know you didn't put them on there, you didn't phony it up, Then you can decide what you want.
I mean, it's a way you can find out yourself.
Well, again, kind of like with channeling, I'm suspicious of this.
In other words, a lot of times when you erase a tape that had something on it, vestiges of that remain.
Yeah, but what they were getting, a lot of this was written up, particularly in England and here in the United States.
People are saying, oh, it's wandering broadcast, which is viable, because that could happen.
But broadcast don't talk to you.
They don't say, hey, Art, you're sitting there in a green sweater or something.
In other words, some of the tapes are really quite interesting.
And again, you can do it yourself.
Yeah, but imagine if you ran a recorder and a portion of this three-hour program were to appear.
You'd probably be totally freaked out, because you'd hear obscure little phrases like, afterlife, or psychic, or remote viewing, or dead grandfather, or who knows what you'd hear, but it would freak you out.
Well, it probably wouldn't talk to you, and they also do it for a very specific length of time.
In other words, so, I don't know, I'm not arguing, I'm just saying, if you're open-minded, try it.
Alright.
If you can't do it yourself.
Here's to the Rockies!
You're on the air with Sheila Ostrander and Lynn Schroeder.
Hi, where are you?
Yeah, this is Mike in Lexington, Kentucky.
Hi, Mike.
Hi.
I wanted to ask the opinion of your guest on something I've been thinking about for a long time.
Art's in a really unique position right now.
He's got this new webcam that he's been using and it's a lot of fun.
And I think it would be a neat idea if he would do a psychokinetic experiment on the air with his webcam where He could have all of his listeners try to bend a fork or something of that nature and... Oh, you know I'd do that.
You know I would.
Catch it on film on your webcam.
It sounds to me like somebody's been looking at Uri Geller's site.
I don't know if you have, but he lives in England and he has a site, and you can win a million dollars unless they get there first, where they have a fork or a spoon, one or the other.
In a vault, and it's got a cam on it, and you have to register for the 15-minute thing, and if you can move it... Well, that's not Uri Geller, is it?
That's, uh, what's-his-name?
What's on his site?
Uh, that's got the million-dollar offer out there.
No, that's Randy.
Randy, the, in my opinion, somewhat less-than-amazing Randy.
Yes, the very less-than-amazing, who may have been a disinformation card thrown out by the government, but no, Uri, who is obviously in favor of spoon-bending, Uh, is, puts up contests for it, to see if other people can do it, because an awful lot of people, particularly in Japan, when he went on TV over there, all kinds of kids started, and we know sometimes you've been it yourself, but things did start to happen.
Alright, listen folks, we're out of time.
Uh, your book is available by calling 1-800-905-8367.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Alright.
And if people want to get in touch with us, should we give a...
An email or... Oh, go ahead.
Give your email address.
Okay.
It's superlearningatworldnet.att.net.
Say it again.
superlearningatworldnet.att.net.
All right.
Program is over.
Thank you both.
Good night.
We'll do it again sometime.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
That's it, folks.
I'm Art Bell from the high desert in an area near Dreamland.
Good night.
This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not that.
▲
Export Selection