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June 20, 1997 - Art Bell
01:16:41
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Jim Dilettoso - Phoenix Lights Images Analysis
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Minnesota is east of the Rockies and you're listening to AM 1500 KST.
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I'm Art Bell.
And there are going to be many things that will happen on this Friday night, Saturday morning.
If any of you have been watching CNN over the last couple of days, you have seen Jim Dilettoso.
Jim runs a lab that has been looking carefully into the Arizona sightings.
The Phoenix sightings.
And I'll let that stand plural for the moment till we nail it down.
You've seen Jim explaining and showing computer projections and graphics of exactly what he thinks they really were.
Actually, we're not sure.
We're going to ask him about that, because Jim DeLaTosso is going to be my guest for the first couple of hours this night, and we are going to probe what has become a national mania.
We're going to continue to probe it, I guess I ought to say.
The Phoenix Sightings.
And Jim has a unique background to comment on a number of aspects of this.
His bio begins by saying, what are the moody blues NASA, the Armed Forces, and Paramount Pictures have in common.
James J. or Jim Dolitoso.
Now that is an interesting career, isn't it?
So we're going to be talking to Jim in a moment.
And then we are going to, one last time, bring on, shortly, Mr. Paul Niskanen.
And he is going to tell us about the cruises and the status of the cruises and whether you can still get in as it were.
And you can, sort of.
We'll tell you about that.
And following that, I am going to go to a conference in Los Angeles for a few hours tomorrow.
In Nartash, or a talker's radio conference.
That's the National Association of Talk Show Hosts.
I'm down in Los Angeles, so I'm going to bail out of here at one o'clock, and we're going to repeat two hours with Dr. Steven Greer.
Dr. Greer of Sea City, beginning at one o'clock Pacific Time.
I will then dash off and try to get a couple of hours sleep before getting on an airplane.
So this is the plan.
And cassette.
That's 1-800-224-2455.
All right, I would like to welcome KMBDA.
I'm in Tillamook, Oregon.
Hope I've got that right.
Tillamook, I believe.
Oregon.
They are, if you're in Tillamook or it's in Byron's, 1590 on the dial.
Welcome, my friends.
To what is going to be a very unusual program, and you'll just have to give it a little time, and you will see where we're going.
Maybe.
Pretty strange places, I would say.
Now, the Moody Blues, NASA, the Armed Forces and Paramount Pictures, that is not a likely combination to be in one person's background, is it?
Uh, Jim Dilettoso is Chairman, President, and Chief Technical Officer of Village Labs, Inc., down in Tempe, Arizona.
And, um, let's just ask him, uh, Jim, why do you have all of the... Welcome to the program, by the way.
Oh, thank you.
Thanks for having me on.
Why, Jim, do you have all of these things, diverse things, the Moody Blues, NASA, the Armed Forces, and Paramount Pictures?
That's pretty unlikely.
Well, it just turned out that way.
I'm not saying that I sought out any of those to become collaborators of mine, but it did end up that way.
I guess the common thread might be the advanced technology required in the concert business.
The sound and lighting production is one thing to Have this massive show for people to see.
It's quite another and additional thing to be able to pack it all up, move it 300 miles a day, set it up and do it every day.
True.
Which we did for many years under my direction of a company that I ran in the 70s through the mid 80s.
So then I guess then that kind of technological background fits into NASA in the imaging area?
Yes.
And the armed forces in... Flight simulators.
Flight simulators?
Oh, they actually kept you in your career field.
Oh, yes.
Usually they take people skilled in one thing and make them do the opposite.
Yes.
And then Paramount Pictures, now that suddenly makes sense.
Yes, and the thread with Paramount being still in image processing.
Digital processing and image processing for a very long time.
Anybody who in the last two days has turned on CNN Knows you well by now.
I mean, they have been running this story every hour.
Oh, really?
I haven't seen it, actually.
I've been here working in the lab.
Really?
No, I've seen a couple of the news programs, but I haven't seen any of the stories running on CNN.
Oh, my goodness.
Well, there you are by your computer, showing the graphics of what appeared over Uh, Phoenix, back on March 13th.
Now, I would like to start by straightening out one big question.
Okay.
Um, were there one or two sightings on March 13th?
And I don't mean just, you know, people at different locations, but different actual appearances of something?
Yes, there were a number of incidents and sightings that happened, and what we've done is group them now into events.
The sightings first came about in Palden at 816, as reported to Peter Davenport.
Yes.
He actually would have been the first official person to know about this.
By coincidence, that night, Stephen Greer was here at our lab, editing the videotapes that he was going to use a month later in Washington.
Who will be on the program later this morning, by the way.
Yes.
At 8.16 it started.
Pauldin is near Prescott in the northwestern part of the state near Sedona.
And the reports happened about every one to two minutes as this pair of light, bright lights, orbs, the size of reports ranged from the size of hot air balloons to aircraft lights, worked its way south Until it went straight through Phoenix, through the center of town, still in a V formation of lights.
Now this is, again, the 8-16 incident, correct?
Starting at 8-16.
Starting at?
P.M.
on March 13th.
Thursday, March 13th.
And then going through, that particular sighting lasted how long?
That lasted until 8-25 P.M.
where it started to be seen in the center of Phoenix by people that lived up in higher altitudes about 1,500 feet above the floor of the valley.
Okay.
Now these people were saying that the object was so close that they could throw a ball and hit it and they saw actual structure to it still in a V or boomerang shape.
Some people said that it took two to three minutes To go overhead.
Moving like a freight train.
Like a freight train?
Right.
Like standing at a subway station looking at a train go by.
Although they said it was moving at about 30 miles an hour only in their estimation.
Close enough to hit with a ball.
And they felt like they were looking at a train going by.
was so immense and took so long to go overhead. And so they saw absolute substance to it.
Do they describe the substance? They certainly do. They describe it as a structure that they
could see through, like looking through ten feet of water.
Some people say it blocked out the stars, but they could still see them.
Some people saw it from another part of the valley as it blocked out the cat's eye moon, but they could still see it.
It went from a whitish-orange color, the moon, to a pale yellow.
So it was like looking through water.
Meanwhile, in other parts of the valley, people were reporting giant orbs, usually pears, directly overhead, or being seen at some great distance.
Now, we began to consider the fact that the lights might separate from a structured object and come back, or they might have been separate and came and inevitably joined together.
Because by the time 10 o'clock arrived, it had been seen all over the state, including Tucson, Came to rest over a mountain range in the south end of Phoenix called the Estrella Mountains This is where the discussion began to happen a lot of contention that it was probably or could be flares Suspended on the mountain range, but after we tested which I'll get to later right this array of lights is over a mile long and there was no
No way, no structure, no residue that they could have been attached to.
All right, well, let us discuss what it was officially said.
Now, the press reports I saw, and I was watching very carefully, as was Peter Davenport, early on, the military, quote, I guess the Air Force at that time, said they were flares.
In the very beginning, there were reports saying flares.
Yes, well, let me clarify that.
Today, I got a telephone call.
Michael Tanner here at our lab got the call.
Actually, I've been speaking to the person, the Public Affairs Officer of the National Guard.
Yes.
She was tired.
of the press and others accusing her and the National Guard of saying that they had ever said that they were flares.
All right, I got a call, too.
I've got to tell you.
I'm going to level with you.
Several people have called, including somebody you know, Richard Motzer, I believe it is?
Yes.
State field investigator for MUFON?
I do.
Okay.
He, too, Call me and suggested that this lady a captain I believe yes, I had been quoted as saying that indeed There they had dispensed flares.
Yes And I I said you know Richard I can bring you on the air But it's not going to do any good to bring you on the air and confront Jim in any way if you don't matter if you can only Point to a news story, an AP news story he thought it was, that quoted her as saying they were flares.
Now, I remember the early reports of flares in the press.
So anyway, continue please.
Well, what the actual press story says is that, the names are by name, says that she denied that they had launched flares, but she said That one of their helicopter pilots had said he had seen flares.
That was as official as it ever was.
In other words, she never said there were flares.
It was a quote from an Apache helicopter pilot who said that he thought he had seen flares.
Correct.
And that became a snowball that The National Guard had launched flares, and when this first came up, I spent a lot of time and attention optically studying flares, airplanes, Harold Bopp, city lights, these lights, etc., etc., in excruciating detail.
All right, let me stop you for one second, and then you can enlarge on that.
I just want to tell you, my conversation with Richard earlier was that Richard, um, If you can give me somebody from the National Guard who says, I shot, I dropped flares, whatever, I was the pilot, I dropped the flares at such and such a time, then we've got something to talk about.
But if we are only going to talk about a press report quoting somebody as saying something, we have nothing.
Essentially, we have nothing.
And he agreed.
I said, so get me that person.
If you can find me that person, we'll go on the air and we'll put it on the air.
We've asked for that.
I've communicated with the Air Force base and the local authorities.
I mean, I have an open dialogue with these people.
They don't view me as an ambassador or the enemy.
Right.
I have an easy dialogue with these people because in my day-to-day work, I have reason to talk to a variety of military contractors and people of that ilk.
So the dialogue was very open and communicative starting on the first day and I couldn't find anyone in the military who agreed that they would ever send up flares at night Particularly over that area.
In fact, they denied that they had used that area for 20 years.
And it just started confounding me.
Why is the UFO research organization saying it's flares and saying that the military are saying that, and the military is saying that they didn't say that?
No, in fact, now, of course, in the latter reports, the military absolutely Denies that there were any flares.
Therefore, he says, uh-uh.
We had nothing up that night.
We certainly had no flares out.
It was not us.
And it could be partially my persistence in having a gentleman's dialogue with a number of these official places to say, would you do it?
What kind of flares were they?
And in fact, I had the president of a Well-known, well-respected, covert operations manufacturing company that makes flares for these agencies.
Had him in the lab, looked at all the videos, and he gave me a written report that says only one of the videos is flares.
And that is the video that was shot by Richard Monster and supplied to a local television station showing flares.
Now this man had been out of town, he didn't know Anything about the case at all.
And we showed him these isolated pieces of video with the different lights in them.
And also some other control objects that we put in just so that there was more things in the batch to look at than just the videos in the area of interest.
And he has said none of these are flares.
They aren't the right color.
They don't come on and go off the right way.
I can't figure how they would hang that motionless.
They don't stay on that long.
And I just got tired of the whole flares thing.
There were much more important issues than dealing with this petty infighting in the UFO research clubs, as I've come to think of them sometimes, when a real investigation is trying to be conducted.
And we don't do this for money or for any other reason than to find out.
I'm empirical about it.
I'm not emotional.
I just need to have the data.
They're not flares.
All right.
They're not flares.
With all of the investigation you have done, now the V formation, when did that appear?
Was that the 10 o'clock stuff or the 8 o'clock stuff?
That was the 8 o'clock stuff.
The V formation was the 8 o'clock stuff?
Right.
And by the time it had come, well, basically all the time it was V formation, except when people were seeing pairs of isolated lights, large orbs.
What was seen by truck driver Bill Greiner over Luke Air Force Base was a pair of orbs.
All right.
The Talk Back Live, which tried to do a whole segment on it earlier on CNN and then got interrupted by some sort of breaking news about tobacco.
Right.
They're saying the whole thing lasted 106 minutes and they're classifying it as one incident.
Is that fair or is that inaccurate?
Well I think it's a fair way to do it when you're trying to tell a story to the general public who is rarely exposed to any kind of UFO story in national media such as USA Today.
Uh, multiple sightings, multiple witnesses.
Was it one object that could separate and then come back together?
Or is it multiple objects?
And right now we view it as four separate incidents.
All right, Jim.
Hold tight.
We'll be right back to you.
Bottom of the hour.
this is CBC.
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I'm going to be singing a song called Love Is Good.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am.
My guest is Jim Della Tosso.
And if you've been watching CNN, you've seen Jim.
Even though he hasn't seen himself, it's been every hour now for days.
The press coverage of the object seen, object, object seen above Phoenix has been absolutely amazing.
Astronomical.
And since Jim has a background in a lot of These areas.
I'm going to ask him if he has any idea of how something that occurred back on March 13th could suddenly be breaking in all media.
All at once.
Months later.
I mean, there are coincidences and then and then there are agendas.
I guess I'll put it that way.
And this may turn into more than it is right now as well, but in the interest of flushing out the truth about what's going on here, maybe we ought to allow it to do that.
One thing I've heard is that the networks took their lead on this story from the USA Today.
And somebody sent me a fax earlier, which I'm going to paraphrase because I don't immediately find it in front of me.
Uh, but I thought it made a pretty good point.
Uh, would it be true that NBC, and ABC, and CNN, uh, decide their news agenda by going down and paying 50 cents for a newspaper?
That's a pretty damn good question.
Create absolutely fresh flowers.
Now, back to Jim Delotoso.
Jim, Hi, Art.
Hi.
Jim, maybe one of the things about all of this that has puzzled me no end is that something that occurred, no matter how we will argue about it, we will, on March 13th, got some Phoenix coverage, and I think a very minor amount of national coverage, and then went away, just faded away in about a day or two, and nobody heard a thing about it.
March, April, May, June, and now June 19th comes and all of a sudden, all of a sudden, all at once, the networks, the major networks, USA Today, MSNBC, everybody's on it.
How can that be?
Can you explain that?
Well, we were surprised by it ourselves because all we were doing was giving another interview to a newspaper.
Richard Price, that wrote the story, came by here today on his way to Roswell to go visit Hub Corn and we talked about it for a little while and he was actually very surprised by it all himself.
We talked a little bit about how rapidly the deployment of the national media happened, and he was surprised about that himself.
He said he had a very difficult time originally selling the concept of the story to the editor.
Richard's a seasoned newspaper writer, has been in the newspaper business his whole life, and this is the first time he's actually written a UFO story.
He didn't know very much about the subject at all, but it was a quick study.
When that story came out, my phone started ringing at 5 o'clock in the morning, local and national news on that day.
Okay, for reference, I understand that the story had been decided on at about 10 o'clock the previous evening.
Yes.
So, USA Today decided at 10 at night.
Their newspaper hits the stands about, well, I don't know when, in the morning hours, sometime or another.
I think it's sent by computer across the nation and printed at private locations.
But what got me was that then CNN during the day and then the networks at night, it seemed as though they had pieces that were too slick, too well prepared to have been done on the basis of something that appeared in the USA Today.
I don't buy it.
Well, some of the stories that did go to the networks were locally produced, or local crews did come to our facility.
For the last year, the news media here in town, before the Phoenix Lights incident, had been covering UFO stories.
In fact, for almost a year, I did a weekly UFO update on the local Fox affiliate.
So we might say that we have a more than average local news media who was well-versed in the topic and in particular this Phoenix light sighting they had file footage good background copy already nonetheless I think the local news media here were very surprised when it reached the national level that it did
I've been involved in other UFO cases that became temporarily nationally prominent.
I think you were the principal investigator in the Billy Meyer case, weren't you?
I was the coordinating scientist in the Billy Meyer case and carefully found laboratories that would empirically test the data and then, much to my surprise, watch the UFO organizations viciously attack the case.
And we withdrew.
I mean, the laboratories that we had gone to test the evidence, not one ever said that there was any indication of a hoax.
And we went into it wide-eyed and bushy-tailed.
This was in the late 70s.
Carefully tested all the evidence with no expectations.
And then we watched two things happen.
The Pleiadians became a household word in ufology, representing the humanoid good guys.
And at the same time, the UFO community polarized itself behind it, but being against it, claiming that all these tests had been done to disprove it.
Well, as the years have gone on, we have discovered that all they've been able to do is level personal attacks.
Bruce McAbee inevitably said to Bob Kiviat, a producer of, well you know Bob produced, was with Encounters and produced the Autopsy, told Bob, according to Bob Kiviat, that he had never actually really tested the Billy Meyer pictures.
The Cal Corp books and as you know all the things on the net Vitalik Korf about the case being a hoax and everyone
connected with it as a fraud and a liar and incompetent Now that this has happened yet another case like the Meyer
case. We're sitting back saying okay Are we being set up for a fall again?
That the that the national media is going to have it and then the attacks are going to roll in well
What was your conclusion?
With regard to the Billy Meyer case and what is it today?
Well, my conclusion back then was that the pictures that Billy Meyer took in the 70s are absolutely, without fail, a large object over 20 feet in diameter.
I believe that as the years went on, and the organization of East German patriots grew up around Billy, that they began to create their own evidence To tell the story, the legend of Billy Meyer who has really become a recluse in his own home.
But the materials, the real materials in the Billy Meyer case have never reached the public or the UFO community.
By 1979 we withdrew.
No more evidence out to the UFO.
Alright, just to sum up if I understand what you just said.
You said the original materials, the original evidence, you feel was real and valid.
And that only as a cult around Billy Meyer built up did the evidence become convoluted and a lot of it false.
That's correct.
And you stand by that view today?
I stand by that view.
Because the technology that we used to test the evidence back then which was the finest available at the time and can still stand in the labs that we went to and the software that we used is still out of reach of the UFO community and uh... the software that we use we used then and even far better software now I can go back and test the pictures again now and get the same results that this is a large metallic object and uh...
This software, I mean, we use it in special effects.
We've designed render farms for major Hollywood motion pictures to do photorealistic rendering.
We've worked on flight simulators and image processing to be able to tell whether an object is a quarter, a tennis ball, or the moon.
And if it works over in that area, it also works in testing UFO pictures.
And the Billy Meyer case, for whatever Truth there is in it today, back then, helped develop, it was a structured controversy.
It helped develop critical thinking so that people were well acquainted with all of the
issues whether they are physical evidence or metaphysical components to the story.
I think it was a very valuable case and should still be looked at today.
Mm-hmm.
Now, will the Phoenix flights fall prey to the same course of action?
I don't think so.
The testing that we have done is extremely sophisticated.
We have far better equipment.
For a number of years, ten years now, we've been designing and building supercomputers and parallel computers.
We have very excellent staff.
And we've been able to triangulate the various videos that we have in a 3D database and know exactly where these lights were, plus or minus three feet.
Wow.
We know its shape.
Now we have witnesses.
I've gone out to the area and I've spent dozens of hours now driving around the Australia mountains looking for roadways, evidence of military or other people going in or out of there, residue of flares.
There's none.
Most importantly, I've talked to the residents of this very rural area in the south part of Phoenix who looked up in the sky directly above their heads and saw the objects above their heads.
Not attached to a helicopter, an airplane, certainly not attached to the mountain itself, And being lit as flares, and that's part of the most compelling part, is the eyewitnesses who were up close and personal to this incident.
Whatever it was.
Whatever it was.
By the way, if you had to say right now, what do you say it was?
Well... I know, that's hard.
The temptation is to say that it is a mothership.
The temptation is to say that it is unearthly.
And you know how much I enjoy talking about the possibility and probability of unearthly visitations.
But in this case, we're looking at giant balls of light
that are closer to things as described by Jim Hurtak in The Keys of Enoch.
Closer to things described in the Fatima and Lourdes and Magigoria incidents.
How many witnesses, Jim, call it a solid object or saw substance to it beyond lights?
About one quarter of the 200 or so reports that we have.
That's a bunch.
That's a bunch.
So if 200 people of a population of 2 million have reported, what ratio of the population, if we use Nielsen numbers, that 4,000 people represents the entire viewing population of America for television, if 200 people have reported to us, what percentage of the population actually saw it?
So, we believe that 10,000 people saw this.
Alright, well the Phoenix area is about 2 million or plus or minus around 2 million people.
It's a big city.
Seventh largest in America.
Yeah, big city, you bet.
Now, how big, based on your examination, how big was this object?
1,500 to 2,000 yards wide when it came to rest over the Australia mountains.
When we take the descriptions of Tim Lee, I use his name because he's been public the last few days, but noted F-15 pilot, North Phoenix area that stood under it as it flew over, described it similar to Tim Lee, that it was awesome in size.
He puts it at a square mile.
A square mile.
We're talking something akin to what was in ID4, hanging over a major American metropolitan area with a couple of million people.
That's right.
For a total of 106 minutes.
106 minutes. Yes Well, I guess that begs many questions why it was not a
Yes.
gigantic story back on March 13th when it occurred And why it suddenly became a gigantic story months later.
Yes There are a lot of people here who smell agenda, and I'm sort of one of them.
I'm not certainly denying that it occurred.
I mean, up on my website, thank you very much for sending photographs, we've got We've got three separate pictures.
Picture 1, 2, and 3.
Would you like to describe, for the audience, can you describe what those 1, 2, and 3 photos on my website are?
Yes.
Well, these are still frames out of videotapes that we got.
Right.
Frame number 1 is taken from a... I'm not sure of the order.
Let me say the number of lights.
The picture that has nine lights in it was taken from Apache Junction by Chuck Reardon in the far east part of the valley.
Shows nine lights in what can be viewed as either a very large circular or boomerang object.
The other one has seven lights in it.
Six in a cluster and one far off to the left.
That was taken in the far north part of Phoenix looking south by a noted local businessman that I'm not sure yet if we use his name on the radio but he's been on television so I'll say it's Mike Christian.
Okay.
The other one was taken by a noted local professional woman who desires to remain anonymous at this time because of her,
the field that she's in.
And she videotaped with a Hi8 camera, two lights, five lights, six lights in a row.
Like the other videos, the lights came on and then they went off.
So we have these three as three exacting positions to be able to triangulate.
And triangulation is done in satellite imagery and everybody uses it.
Okay.
To get an exact location.
Well, what we did was with these three images that are up on the web now and the video that's
in front of them behind these still frames, went, they got a topographical map from U.S.
Geological Survey.
3D topographical map loaded into a garden variety usable program called AutoCAD.
Right.
Moved it to 3D Studio Max, matched the position that each of the videographers shot their video, went to exactly that position and dropped in the dots.
Went to the next position, the next position, did that with all the videos, then rose up above the 3D model, looked down to see what we have.
Viola!
We have a V-shaped formation of lights.
Wow.
That sounds like some solid scientific work to me.
In other words, it all came together, you were able then to get a 3D view, and you go above it, and there it is.
Correct.
Okay, I think I've got the picture.
Uh, no pun intended.
Jim, hold on.
Uh, we're gonna break here at the top of the hour and we'll come back and do some interesting stuff.
I'm Art Bell, and from the high desert, this is CBZ.
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at all...
You've seen Jim Delitoso.
He's my guest.
He's been on just about every hour.
As this massive coverage of whatever it was above Phoenix continues almost as a mania in the media.
I mean, they're almost covering it the way I cover these things.
It certainly is a strange thing that has occurred.
On the one hand, we may have An ID4-like incident.
I mean, here we have what is being dubbed a mothership.
Something massive and gigantic hovering over a U.S.
city with an area population of about 2 million people.
Phoenix.
A story picked up on months after it occurred.
Um, simultaneously, synchronistically, by the American media.
In a moment, we will continue.
The first hour was a careful explanation of the work that Jim has done scientifically to document what he believes is indeed a mothership.
And, uh, he runs a lab.
Uh, let me see, it is, uh, he is Chairman, President, and Chief Technical Officer of Village Labs, Inc.
In Tempe, Arizona, where all this work has gone on that you've seen on CNN.
And we'll get back to him in a moment.
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Tell them Art Bell sent you.
Alright, a man who examined the Billy Meyer case back in the early days of the Billy Meyer case.
And has been examining UFO evidence and footage ever since, uh, is Jim Delitoso.
And as I've been saying, you cannot turn on CNN, or at least for the last couple of days you can't, without seeing Jim.
And, uh, he would be the one sitting there with a computer screen and the graphic showing, uh, what occurred over the skies of Phoenix March 13th.
In what appears to be a 106 minute period.
Either one incident, two separate incidents, many incidences, all of these things are contentious.
And, uh, contentious is what this hour is likely to be.
Um, welcome back, uh, Jim.
Okay, thank you.
Um, Jim, I should tell you that I've got, uh, somebody who disagrees with you on the line.
Okay, that's to be expected.
Um, and so, the best way sometimes to get to the truth, um, and I would like to do it without too much heat, uh, if I can manage that, because that's the best way to get to the truth, is Richard, uh, Motzer.
Richard is the State Field Investigator for MUFON, as we mentioned last hour in Arizona.
And Richard, are you there?
I am.
Okay, I take it you've been listening and making some notes.
I have.
Alright, do you have any important, relevant questions for Jim?
Well, I would like to have the courtesy, first of all, to give a little bit of my credentials, if I could.
You may.
Yes, I attended the Ohio College of Applied Sciences, which is now a part of the University of Cincinnati.
And I have a bachelor's degree in electronic design.
I do have a good background also in electronic design for STL Studio Lynx, which I did some work for Sony.
And they were so impressed that they published my work and the results of the performance of the product in Radio World Magazine.
I think you know that publication.
I do.
And my products have been featured in such publications as radio electronics and the Scottsdale Airports Review.
Interestingly enough, in my also being able to do digital as well as analog imaging, my
mentor happens to be your guest tonight, Jim Delitosa.
You two could be described at one time as close friends.
Is that true on both sides?
Well, I would say yes.
Mr. Delitosa had taken some unnecessary heat from our Texas headquarters on the Billy Meyer
case.
Meaning move on.
Yes, uh-huh, which I am a member.
And when I became a part here, I strived to rectify those injustices as I saw those.
And what I did, I said that Mr. Delitosa was my mentor, and that was by reviewing the books
he did and the videotapes, and then duplicating his results with other low-cost software.
And I was able to do that, and that really put me feeling that Jim knew what he was doing,
and he was right on the money.
I have a company, it's not important here, but it ends in labs too.
So on my vendor license it's DX Tele Labs.
Tele is the British word for television.
And I've designed long reception antenna equipment for both the UHF TV band
and that led me into the STL work, the studio link preamplifiers.
Alright, it sounds like you're mainly in electronics.
That's right.
And now I'm into imaging because my business now is computers.
Alright, fine. And now you are the state field investigator for MUFON in Arizona.
How long have you held that position?
I have held that probably two and a half years.
I don't have the exact date.
I joined MUFON approximately, I would think it would have been June of 92.
All right.
All right.
So there's some background on you.
You've heard Jim talk about the work he's done on the Phoenix images for the last hour.
Yes.
Do you have any specific questions or Disagreements with Jim on what he has said.
Yes, I have very many.
One of the things he just mentioned here was he made a statement, I'm going to paraphrase it here, that people in South Phoenix looked up and saw the lights over the Australias.
You cannot see the Australias if you're in South Phoenix.
You can take Central Avenue, which splits Phoenix from the east and west, and it drives straight into South Mountain.
Even over in Aotuki, where Tom King took his video, from the porch of the gentleman's home that they were at, you cannot see the Australians either.
And so, that footage that you see on CNN, and I talked to another outlet and they said that it looks like it's the Mr. Christian's footage, the big arc.
They are at an altitude of 8,900 feet, and Way behind the Australia Mountains.
And here's the key point.
And he hit it right on the head.
The witnesses are the key thing.
95% of the witnesses never saw the footage that you see on TV.
Because if you're at ground level, you can't.
You're blocked by South Mountain.
And you're blocked by the Australias.
However, in Alatooke, you have a sight through the draw, which allows you to see some of the light.
There's approximately 7 videos that I have and they're all at the same 10 o'clock event, and they all
look different because all but one are at high altitudes, but you have to realize
that the scallops of the mountains clip off some of the lights.
And so that was one of the key things in breaking the case.
All right, I need to be clear here.
Jim, what's being shown on the networks and on CNN?
Yes.
That footage, is that the 8 o'clock footage or the 10 o'clock footage?
That's the 10 o'clock footage.
And when I describe this for a national audience that doesn't know anything about Phoenix, for courtesy to them, I say North Phoenix, South Phoenix, East, West.
But I specifically was talking about going out and driving around in the Australia mountains, going out to Rainbow Valley Road going out to Ray Road to people that know where the area is and I went out and drove around Exactly in the areas where the topology map showed me that this object was So I'm not just sitting looking at a computer screen.
I drove around out there, and I went to the home of people a couple of sat in their backyard with them at the very edge of the mountains and they pointed straight up in the air, not on the mountain, but straight up and showed me where it was above their house.
Let me ask you something, Jim.
Did you violate federal law that night?
What does that mean?
At Rainbow Valley, which is B&L Land, what he's speaking of, that has been cordoned off.
That's B&L Land, right?
Yes, B&L Land, right.
And that's been cordoned off.
Also, I was out in that area where these people also photographed these lights, and they said they always appear exactly at the same place.
And the reason for that is that their shot that they see, their viewpoint, is straight through where all these are going.
So they have an in-look at what's happening.
Now, their future son-in-law, who is in Buckeye, says every time this happens, you can see the floor of the desert light up.
And he says usually there is helicopter traffic around.
I don't agree.
I don't agree with that.
Well, I think that's a person talking, because I've gone to... I've just given you one person, now I can give you a whole bunch of persons.
Okay.
But, you know, these are not in reports that we've been able to see.
Only you have these, Richard.
Jim, you know you siphoned off 63 reports, and we got nothing from you.
Richard, earlier in the day when I spoke to you, Richard, we spoke for some time, and you are contending that the 10 o'clock footage The Arizona National Guard put out an AP press release.
with me. Flares, right? Am I correct? I said, well, okay.
Where did the flares come from?
Your response was the Arizona National Guard, correct?
The Arizona National Guard put out an AP press release.
They did not. Jim, give me the courtesy to, because I have the paper right in front of me.
No, you have the newspaper, Richard.
You are misleading the people that are listening on the radio.
Okay, gentlemen, hold it.
There were many early reports from the military that, yes, they were flares.
Many early reports.
I read them.
And they were in the newspaper, they were in the media.
They were in the media, but the military never released those press releases.
If you contact the military and say, give me a copy of that press release, they do not exist.
Okay, perhaps then in the newspaper, an AP report or something like that.
Who knows?
But there were reports of flares.
And I asked you earlier in the day, Richard, that if we are going to debunk this and say it is flares at 10 o'clock, the footage the national audience is seeing, then Bring me somebody, a pilot, who says, I shot the flares, and we're in business.
And you gave me the name of somebody or another, a Captain Eileen somebody.
Yes.
But we can't talk to her.
And what we're going to try to do is to go further on that and through Freedom Information try to get that for you.
Let me kind of give you a quick rundown.
How we used a very unsophisticated method to help us come to this decision.
We had seven videos, all shot at 10 o'clock from various angles and various altitudes, and you had to be high in altitude, like Dr. L's home up on the backside of Camelback, that's approximately 40th Street and Lincoln.
Jim is right about one thing.
The national audience is not going to understand these streets.
Okay.
Anyway, let's go to the simple test.
We picked three of the clips that were either shot on tripod or the cameras rested on a steady service.
Okay.
We then marked the artificial horizon, which would be a row of Phoenix lights, and then we marked where each one of these lights extinguished And then we ran the tape backwards, and they all rise and move to the right, meaning that actually, when they were deployed, they were deployed with a easterly or southeasterly motion, either by helicopter, C-130, or a launch rack.
And they all moved together in sequence?
They all moved together exactly the same, and they timed out at three minutes, approximately three minutes each, which is the exact parameter for the Mark 45, uh, uh, The flare, which puts out 840 watt-seconds, reflected into a 16-foot parachute reflector.
The descent rate is 5 to 7 feet per second at ignition.
Then it stabilizes, and then the burn time for that flare is 3 minutes, plus or minus.
Of course, there's always a parameter there.
A perfect match for the 10 p.m.
event.
Then I took all the rest of the videos that were not stable, as far as being held, And it took a longer time and everything was the same.
Now, I have the gentleman who shot the V-Formation at 56th Street and Carefree Highway do the same analysis on his footage because he's been filming this for months.
This is not a single event.
It happened once.
These flares have been going on for months.
We have three months of footage just from this one person.
He did the same test.
He says they drop exactly the same way.
There's no difference.
I disagree with this because in our motion studies there is no movement of the flares the optical characteristics of them to the manufacturers of flares and to the computer are not flares and this is that you better check your your monitoring equipment and just simply measure the difference between the horizon and And Richard, I've checked the monitoring equipment.
This is a ridiculous set of circumstances.
I still have all the tapes.
All I have to do is give them to CBS or ABC and perform the same test and let's see what their engineers have to say.
That's a great thing to do.
That's what I'm glad ABC has made that offer to do that.
Yes.
Alright, Richard, let me ask you this.
While we're discussing whether or not the 10pm footage is flares or an object, a UFO of some other sort, Um, you do believe that earlier in the evening, 8 o'clock, shortly after 8 o'clock, there was a UFO that you cannot explain.
Is that correct, Richard?
Absolutely.
And it may be more than just one, Art.
There's a timeline problem on how it could travel.
When these people are reporting that it's extremely slow, how it can cover and actually end up with a minus sign on our time sheet.
You know, we average a bunch of witnesses, you just can't use one.
Absolutely, I would agree with that, and that needs to be investigated, and Councilwoman Barr would thank me for making this thing, pointing out the flare thing, because if this investigation really gets going, they're going to look at the math evidence first, and they're going to say, well, hell, those are flares.
Yeah.
No, what they will do is they will try to find exactly the people who would shoot up flares, locate those people, and have them identify themselves.
Why were they doing it?
Let's have them do that.
No one is coming forward because you haven't done it.
Yeah, I've got the same question.
Does it seem reasonable to both of you that with the amount of national coverage, and it has been incredible, that if there was somebody out there who shot players on that night, that they would have by now come forward?
That is correct.
And in fact, when Captain Benz called here today, She was very unhappy about the fact that it was continually going on that they had shot up flares or that they had put out a press release saying that they had put up flares.
Yes.
Some three weeks ago, they reiterated on a local newscast that the Army National Guard did say it was flares.
I have that tape.
Okay, Richard.
Have you talked to Captain... No, I'm going to do that, or have somebody do it.
I have to delegate some responsibility, because... Okay, I've got to tell you honestly, Richard, that I have watched news coverage of events, and about half, or even better than half the time, it's totally inaccurate.
I agree.
I agree, Art.
So, in other words... That's what needs to be done.
You're arguing that these things were flares based on Check me if I'm wrong, Richard.
A news report.
No, didn't you just listen to what I said about how we processed all the videotapes?
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
But I mean, when we get right down to it, we're saying, okay, if they were flares, somebody by now should have come forward.
You agree with that, don't you?
That's true, but let me throw one other thing in here.
The person in Rainbow Valley that we were talking to says that she thought either this had to do maybe with drug enforcement exercises or
a border, you know, containing our borders.
And this was a training exercise.
But the BLM land was open for everybody and then it is a denied access.
And she said, that's exactly where this is happening.
And I'll be in contact with her tomorrow again because I'd like to have her come forward.
I think she will.
All right.
If even if the DEA did it though, By now, the DEA should have come forward to settle this.
I mean, this has been a saturation nationwide.
And I think it is a reasonable expectation that some official, if there really was an official explanation, would have come forward by now.
Jim, get that written statement from that captain saying that they're tired of it.
I'd like to have that in your hand.
Ask him to get that for you.
All right.
We'll come back in a moment and talk with you both.
Near Area 51.
This is CBC.
444-1050.
All right.
First back to Jim Delitoso.
Jim, I have a question for you.
Are you there, Jim?
Yes, I'm here.
444-1050. Alright, first back to Jim Delitoso. Jim, I have a question for you. Are you there, Jim?
Yes, I'm here. Okay. Jim, at 8.22pm, this basically comes from Richard Tetrahedral Hoagland.
Mars was at 19.5 and Richard would like to know where this object was that appears to be a UFO in your opinion and in the opinion of Richard.
Where was the object roughly at 8.22?
Could you tell me?
Well, it was over central Phoenix at that point and was in the position where the witnesses were saying that it was moving overhead.
Close enough that they could throw a ball and hit it.
Okay, and I guess that answers Richard's question.
Now, let me bring Richard Hoagland's question.
Let me bring back Richard Mosser now, a state field investigator from move on.
Richard, And, Jim, I have a question for the both of you.
Wait a minute, I need my reply back to Mr. Hoagland.
I see, alright.
You take issue with that, then.
We have a cell phone record from the gentleman who got a call from his buddy, who is the only one to film the actual V-Formation flight at 56th Street and Carefree Highway.
The time stamp on that call is 8-28, so that's a neat trick that it is not over Phoenix at 8-22.
Let me ask you both the following question, and I think it's a good one.
how it can be in Phoenix earlier than it was at Carefree.
That's an interesting thing.
We have a, because it's a cell phone, we have a time stamp on that.
Yeah, you two disagree with that.
All right.
Let me ask you both the following question, and I think it's a good one.
The contention, whether it's earlier or later, during this whole period of the sightings,
106 minutes in total, the contentious issue seems to be what can be seen from where?
Am I correct?
I think that's correct.
That's why we got a demographical map.
Right.
Let me try this out on you.
You know where the various locations were, the both of you, where these various videos were shot, correct?
That's right.
What would stop you from going back in the daytime And taking shots with similar cameras, if not the same cameras, and then taking those back into the lab.
And since you're able to determine what the horizon is, you say, at night, compare the two and you will have your answer.
We in fact did that with a digital still camera.
One at a time here.
Richard?
Yes, I did that.
We were only denied doing that with Dr. L.
Uh, and so we knew the location and we took a look at where we think the home was.
And we did that.
In fact, uh, another thing was that, uh, we did that at, uh, I don't want to use Steve's last name over in Aotuke, but we did that, and that's where we knew you couldn't see, uh, the Australias or the South Mountain from his balcony.
Alright, so you say you've already done that.
I've already done that.
With the same camera, and, uh, you can't see it, you claim?
Uh, on that one location.
Now, on the others, of course you can.
Mr. Christian's, uh, patio looks directly southwest, and that's how he shot it.
And I shot also 35mm as well as camcorder footage, again, so we could make that reference.
That had to be done.
Alright, Jim, have you done the same thing?
Yes, we did that with a digital still camera and went to actually more locations than just of the videotape.
We went to a number of the eyewitness locations, shot the exact position that their descriptions were, And then with their assistance, recreated exact drawings and superimposed them on what it was that they said that they saw, so that we could then compare it.
Right.
Like doing a police artist work.
Sure.
Inevitably, the topographical map from U.S.
Geological Survey in 3D was the key to be able to get exacting lines of sight, match up the videos, and match up the daytime shots.
And the whole idea about it being flares always ran into the background here of if someone shot up flares, where did they shoot them from to get them up there?
Why did they shoot them up?
What was their motivation and their purpose?
And when coordinating all of this, we're saying, well, gee, what a coincidence with this major thing going on for the previous hour and a half.
Wouldn't everyone from the sheriffs and police departments to the air traffic controllers be on radio and anyone like the DEA would know this is not the time to shoot up flares?
Okay, let me respond to that.
There was flares done Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night.
By whom?
We don't know, but even your witnesses took pictures of it.
We have Steve's video, and the triangle formation... There's no agreement that those are flares.
He shot video, but who said that they were flares?
We have had this going on, and the big difference between all the other nights was that the attitude was extremely high for these.
I don't want to miss one point here.
I want to get to the real agenda why Jim needs the 10 o'clock footage to be UFOs.
And that is because there is a possible movie deal with Dr. L. And they have to make that footage that they have.
There is no movie deal.
Don't interrupt me.
Let me finish.
Wait a minute, Richard.
Now, that is fair.
Is there or is there not a movie deal?
He's saying there is not.
I have from actually other people that he's involved with saying that I have an audio tape interview with Dr. L. And the thing is that That footage is the thing that closely matches the actual flying deformation.
By the way, Jim, all you have to do is ask us for that footage.
You don't have to make a model.
We have the real thing.
All you gotta do is ask us for a copy.
If you have any professional recording equipment in your facility, because when we made the appointment for me to transfer that, we had to dig up an old Umatic three-quarter inch.
We had no professional equipment in-house to take an SPHS transfer.
No, we had digital video DVC equipment that would not lock up to your equipment.
Richard, be accurate about this.
We have absolute top-of-the-line, latest digital video recording equipment that would not lock to Richard's deck.
But, you know, we produced all the video for Strange Universe off of my deck.
It's strange, isn't it?
But anyway, it was just a matter of... Gentlemen, we, uh... This is deteriorating into something really silly.
No, it's getting an honesty in what the real agenda is.
Then my turn to talk so we can stop this.
Alright, good.
I have never done this for money.
Ever.
I have never taken money for any television program or anything, any research I have ever done.
When someone comes to me and proposes That a movie can be made, and I listen, and I sit there and listen, because that's part of what we do, is we are very involved in major Hollywood projects, and everyone knows that.
There's a parade to my office every day.
I sit and listen.
That does not mean that I am participating or have any designs or any reason to make a movie.
If I wanted to make a movie, I would have gotten involved with something, anything, with the Billy Meyer case or any other case.
This is not even remotely close to why I would be involved with this and anyone that's close to this and knows me knows this for a fact.
It's not why I do it.
Richard's allegation is that you are making the 10 o'clock footage the UFO footage so that you can make a movie deal.
And what would the movie be about?
What do you think?
Now, also, the Dr. L... That isn't an answer.
...tried to change her time stamp on her video and told me that she couldn't have possibly filmed anything past 8.30 that night, but she forgot that she dates the time at 10 o'clock p.m., not once, but twice, and her husband says it's March the 13th, 1997.
Don't con me, Jim.
March the 13th, 1997.
Don't con me, Jim.
Con you about what?
About everything you've been conning everybody else about.
This is really an insult.
Let's drop all this and let's get the investigation going on the real thing.
Because it has been going on.
This is really unbelievable that this position is being taken on the... The truth hurts sometimes.
The truth of what you're saying?
The truth of evidence.
Yes.
Okay, Richard... Supposedly flares and I've been insulted to this degree about my motivation What about the science that was done on testing the flares?
We have no one... We have your word to say that, but once you have your flare experts in writing, and that's the papers.
Yes.
Anyone that has gotten a video taped off of these network programs can scan it into their computer and compare all the lights.
They can run optical waveform modulation functions and see what it is.
It's saturated, Jim.
You know that.
There's only 230 lines of resolution compared to 4,000 for 35mm film.
We have 35mm film, by the way.
Yes.
And the person has now forbid me to show it to anybody.
Jim has seen it.
It's a structured object.
Not plasma gas.
And all we need to do now is get another 35 print when they do another flare thing and we have 100% match.
Okay.
Laugh it off if you want.
I'm being very serious about what I'm doing and I can't believe that a discussion about an event of this importance has deteriorated into this.
It hasn't deteriorated at all.
Okay.
You and your other people have presented a one-line or one biased view of this.
And we're trying to present... We're not saying that everything is... We're calling the 10 o'clock event what it is, but we know you need that footage to go with the other footage.
Richard, you... Yeah, let's center on the 10 o'clock event, alright?
Richard, you're saying it's flares.
Yes, I am.
But you have not offered proof, in my opinion.
You will be getting stuff in the mail as I talk to you this afternoon about...
You know, but what we need is somebody from the National Guard, if that's what you're claiming, who says, I fired flares.
And it really is a fair... Oh, I have no question about it.
It's a fair assumption right now to say that if somebody did fire flares with this kind of coverage, they'd have come forward long ago.
Well, they've been doing it for three months.
Right now you're basing that allegation, Richard, on A newspaper report?
No, no, no, no.
We have video over a period of three months of the same event happening on and off at actually the same time for each light.
And this is over a three-month period, not from just one person.
I have it from three people.
So now we will forward and go forward and do what you want, Art, and we'll either end up with Jim supplying a paper from the National Guard that is
notarized to you that no, they did not do anything, or I'll end up getting a
paper to you that says yes, we did, then we said no comment, then we said yes, we did again.
Well, the major media, ABC, NBC, CNN, all of them have been going to the various military
organizations, probably to the point where they're getting annoyed and asking about this,
and they have been replying, or at least it's been reported, that no,
we had no operations on that night, no, we had no flares up.
Now that's what's being reported, Richard.
Yes, and that's right, but you've got to remember, Art, we didn't go ahead and do that, since we want to concentrate on the real event, And only this has just come up here with the U.S.
Today article.
We're going to do what you ask, and we hope we're going to come up with some results.
But that doesn't worry me, because now we know there's going to be an investigation by some third party, and they're going to turn up the same conclusion that we came up with.
So I'm not worried about this.
Yes, if they turn up the same conclusions, it's not using real science, and I bet we won't see public reports.
You're the only person on the Earth that uses real science.
No, there are a number of people that can conduct identically the same tests and come up with the same results.
Listen, there's bad blood between you two.
There is at this point, but I want to say one thing.
I do not challenge Jim on Previous work, and I want to make sure you know that.
This is on this event, and this event only.
Would you agree with that, that you are only disagreeing on this event, Jim, or has there been previous disagreement?
In other words, was there bad blood before this?
I don't really have bad blood with anybody.
I require precision when they claim that testing has been done, as we do in our work here at the lab every day, in projects unrelated to UFOs.
And the...
Attempt here is to paint a picture that I would throw away the integrity and what I've done in my regular work and in other UFO cases to make a movie and to fraudulently say that we've tested something and attempt to get it on national media to build up a frenzy so that a movie could be made and that's a very That's a very unusual feeling that I have that that's what I'm being accused of.
You've been caught.
Oh, you've been caught, he said, Richard said.
Well, I haven't been caught.
Caught in what way, Richard?
Well, let's go back to the little press release.
I still have the reporting off of my messaging machine that Jim had called and said, I stand corrected on this.
matter of the flares and that this woman has lied to us at the Air National Guard.
Oh, didn't say that. Absolutely. I have it on tape. You can play it for us now.
All right, Richard, Richard, Richard, hold it everybody.
Hold it, hold it. Richard, Jim just gave permission for you to play it.
Well, I have to get it.
Well, go get it.
I can't, Jim.
Listen.
Go get it.
Everything is arched.
Let's do a redo.
Now, that's not fair.
Let's play with this issue.
Yes, it is there.
Richard.
Hold it.
Everybody.
Richard.
Richard, are you there?
Let me do this, all right?
I will include that with the package I'm sending you, okay?
Look, that's fair enough.
Look, look, we've got a break coming up.
We've got literally eight minutes at the top of the hour.
I think the audience needs to hear the tape.
If I said that, I'm willing to be caught nationally.
All right, let me, let me try to get, I gotta put an AC adapter on the camera.
Let me try to get the proper tape and find the spot.
You've got, look, a good eight or nine minutes.
All right, I will try my best, buddy.
All right and uh and so let's be straight right now before the top of the hour about what you both think was or wasn't said in that message.
Richard you think he said what now?
That he says I stand corrected uh on the wait first of all he said good work on this.
I stand corrected uh and he says captain Blankly blank.
That's not a foul word or anything.
It's just a person's name.
Right, right, right.
Lied to us.
Absolutely not.
I never... Right, I've got to go.
I never said any such thing.
I'll try my best.
Nor would I. Alright, hold on, hold on.
Jim, what do you say you said on the table?
Well, I left a couple of messages for Richard in the duration of time when he had said that there was a press release and I had talked to Captain Benz and knew exactly what she said and hadn't said and when Richard sent me this Newspaper story that quoted a hearsay of a helicopter pilot.
A helicopter pilot reported to her.
Yes.
And I called Richard.
I reported directly to her.
One person.
I know and when you read the report you see that she is not admitting that they officially ever said it.
So I called up and in my amusement said something like, good work.
And I certainly would not say anything derogatory about Captain Ben.
Well, give me enough time here, Art, so I can go and try to find that.
Oh, you'll have the time.
All right.
I just wonder how I'm going to patch this.
OK, I'll figure it out.
It doesn't matter.
I mean, you can if it's an answering machine, right?
Is what it is.
Oh, no, no.
What I did.
Oh, excuse me, Art.
What I did was I turned my eight millimeter camcorder on and photographed the answering machine as I pushed to play the message.
I have an archive on eight millimeter Uh, camcorder film.
It was easy enough, it was on the answering machine, I could just push the button.
So I'm sorry you didn't understand what, what I'm up against on this end.
I have to, first of all, get the camcorder out.
I've got to put an audio patch out.
Yeah, well, forget an audio.
I mean, you can, uh, yeah, that's true.
You've got to find a way to get some audio.
Right, yeah.
Loud audio.
I mean, good enough I can just put the phone up to it, but I'm sorry you didn't understand that, no, it's a digital answering machine.
It has a maximum of 25 messages, and you have to clear it off, so.
And so you did this to save it.
Well, yeah, we'll give you a good, like, 8, 9, 10 minutes even, Mark.
Okay, I'm going to do my best, okay?
Um, fine.
Uh, that, that will help settle it, because Jim, you're saying that when you talked to the captain, she was sick of hearing from people basically about this whole thing.
Well, this was today when she called the lab.
This discussion with Richard is about a call maybe a month ago.
I think that's fairly close.
Let me try to remember.
I was in Atlanta the week before.
Yeah, that would be pretty accurate.
I would say three to four weeks ago would be correct.
All right.
And I said, uh, she denies.
In fact, I called Tom Taylor, the state director, and told him specifically that she had just denied it.
That she had ever said it, or that they would ever send up flares.
All right.
Let me try to find it.
All right, Richard, uh, go.
Okay.
Um, the tale of the tape coming up, maybe, after the top of the hour.
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBZ.
KSTP St.
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