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June 19, 1997 - Art Bell

02:43:32

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Open Lines - Phoenix Lights - Frances Barwood - Bill Hamilton - Whitley Strieber

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	And I have never seen a period of more high strangeness than you're about to hear recited to you this morning.
	Whatever is going on in Arizona, it's getting beyond belief.
	Councilwoman Frances Barwood, she's a councilwoman on the Phoenix City Council, at least for now, who requested an investigation of what Bill Hamilton documented, along with many others.
	Then that will be followed by Richard Hoagland, who called all this 24 hours before it occurred, and then Whitley Streber, And there are things going on that are way beyond the pale.
	So we'll kind of try to let it unwind in some sort of chronological order, if we can.
	So what I would suggest is two things.
	One, buckle in.
	Two, if you have a tape recorder, we love selling tapes, but I'm telling you right now,
	roll that sucker now.
	We are about to go to Bill Hamilton, who is a UFO investigator.
	He captured some of the strange footage that you're now seeing nationwide.
	Strange as that may be, suddenly, months after the event, like somebody threw a switch.
	Here's the quick chronology I've got.
	June 19th, 1997, about 12.45 p.m.
	this afternoon.
	about 1245 p.m. this afternoon.
	Arizona Governor Fife Symington states he has ordered the Arizona Department of Public Safety
	to initiate a full investigation of the Phoenix Light, that's in quotes, event of March 13, 1997.
	This event was captured on local TV.
	The governor's demeanor was dead serious.
	June 19th, 1997 at 1 o'clock this afternoon, Governor Symington returns to the federal courthouse to continue his trial on federal indictments, fraud and misrepresentation.
	June 19, 1997, about 5 p.m.
	Governor Symington calls an emergency press conference.
	Now this is four hours later.
	An emergency press conference at which he announces there will be no investigation.
	In other words, he says, the whole subject was just a big joke.
	The faxer says, I am not able to provide answers that would explain his behavior.
	I can, however, play Connect the Dots, Hoagland's game.
	The thing is, I don't like where the dots logically lead.
	Let us begin with Bill Hamilton.
	Bill, welcome to the program.
	For some reason, I don't see... Oh, there you are!
	Yes.
	Bill, welcome to the program.
	Yes, thank you, Art.
	You want to tell people a little bit about your background.
	You're an investigator.
	You got some of the footage of the incident back on March 13th, correct?
	Yes, I did.
	I've been investigating the UFO subject for 21 years now as a field investigator.
	And on the night of March 13th, I received a phone call from a man named Steve in Ahwatukee just south of Phoenix and he had for the past three nights prior to March 13th, he and his family had been seeing some very strange lights and videotaping them and he asked me to come down and check this out.
	Right.
	And I took along my friend Tom King, we went down there and We took a look at his video.
	He showed us where he was seeing these lights in the vicinity of the Estrella Mountains.
	And they reappeared that night at very low elevation, below the peaks of the Estrellas, in front of the Estrella Mountains, right over the Gila River Indian Reservation.
	And kind of in an almost triangular formation.
	Ever since that night, of course, we found out that others had seen other objects that same night.
	In fact, we believe maybe four or five different events occurred over the Valley of the Sun that night.
	In fact, new reports are still coming in to me.
	And we're putting this all together in an event analysis down at Village Labs with Jim Delitoso and Michael Tanner.
	I saw Mr. Delitoso on CNN.
	They're running that story every hour.
	Uh-huh.
	In fact, we're finding out some very new, interesting information about these sightings, about the path of these objects, that one of these objects, which I believe was a large black triangle, reversed its path somewhere around Tucson.
	It was seen by some truck drivers driving north on Interstate 10, and their trajectory for that particular object would bring it right across our line of sight that particular night.
	Alright, CNN also has witnesses saying it was not just lights, that they were able to discern Indeed, a solid object, as you are describing there.
	That's all over CNN right now.
	Yes, that is correct.
	There were some of the witnesses could discern a solid object, especially the triangular object, but there was also an object that resembled, like one witness said, a carpenter's square, a boomerang-type shaped object.
	Boomerang, yes.
	So you got the footage.
	Is that footage that you got generally what is being nationally run all over the place now?
	Our footage is being run, and another man's footage, Mike Kristen's footage, he took videotape from Moon Valley overlooking Phoenix, and that's where you see this arc of light that appears above the city lights.
	It's very dramatic footage.
	Um, I want to ask you, just as an investigator, this occurred back on, um, March 13th.
	A big one, anyway.
	Yeah.
	And, um, yesterday, uh, prophetically, after the appearance of Richard Hoagland, and we're going to get to that, USA Today, ABC, NBC, MSNBC, and maybe even CBS, all suddenly, like somebody threw a switch, All went national with this story.
	Now, that was March 13th.
	It was March, April, May, June.
	This is June.
	It seems beyond the realm of the wildest possibility.
	I mean, these were prepared pieces that these networks had.
	They weren't thrown together in seconds.
	Now, this indicates there is either great management of the news, which is what I'm beginning to believe, and I don't like to believe those kinds of things, Well, Art, what they were doing was, they have local teams right here in Phoenix, and they gathered these witnesses together at various locations, either at Village Labs, or like this morning, we gathered together at Francis Barwood's house.
	Yes.
	And the local team comes in, they do the interviews, they took a copy of my footage, and they transmit it.
	Yes.
	And it's there, and it's going to be shown tonight.
	Yes, I understand all that, but this synchronicity of all the mass media seems beyond reason and beyond chance.
	At any rate, you called me earlier this evening.
	Yes.
	And relate to the audience, please, what you told me.
	Just tell them what you told me.
	Well, I was concerned because I saw the Channel 15 News broadcast earlier this evening with Governor Symington coming on the air, and the newscaster announces that in an unprecedented move, Governor Symington has launched an official investigation into the sightings.
	Well, that kind of lifted my spirits.
	Then the governor came on and said, the video that I saw a quick glimpse of was intriguing, so I am going to order a full, you know, investigation of this through DPS.
	That's the Department of Public Safety.
	We are going to make all the necessary inquiries, and we're going to get to the bottom of it.
	We're going to find out if it was a UFO, and he said that very seriously.
	Okay, this is an exact quote, isn't it?
	That's an exact quote.
	Okay.
	And then a reporter comes on, and he says the governor's holding a press conference right now.
	That was, I guess, between 5 and 6 o'clock.
	At the Capitol building, and he says that the DPS has turned up startling new information about this case.
	We will have this for you later.
	And that's when they had one of the governor's assistants come in.
	He was all dressed up in this alien costume.
	And he had a big laugh over it, like this was just a big joke.
	Okay, there's one part of the chronology you missed.
	At about one o'clock, Governor Symington went to federal court.
	Yes, that's true.
	To continue his trial on federal indictments, fraud and misrepresentation, something having to do with banks or something.
	And I am trying to find out whether at any time during that appearance in court, the governor went privately to chambers.
	And I have yet been unable to find out.
	Returning to the original announcement the governor made, his demeanor Was dead serious, wasn't it?
	In other words, this was not presented originally as a joke.
	It was fools in March here.
	No, it wasn't.
	In fact, he looked like he was interested.
	He looked like he was serious.
	I just saw a replay of it.
	He used some other words from the replay, but they were still serious.
	So I'm baffled by it.
	And a lot of other people are baffled by it.
	And they've issued a phone number to take a poll about people's opinion of what the governor did.
	And I understand the feedback I've heard so far is that there are a lot of people here in Phoenix that are very irked over what he did.
	Is the governor, in your opinion, a stable man?
	Well, I have never seen him behave in this fashion.
	This seems out of character for him.
	And, uh, I don't know exactly what's going on.
	We know that the Mayor of Phoenix, who is Skip Rimza, has kind of, uh, poo-pooed this whole subject.
	He just kind of ridicules it.
	Yes, and, uh, Francis Barwood along the way.
	Yeah.
	Um... Now, we're conducting a serious, ongoing investigation.
	We're talking to You know, we're having new witnesses come forth who may be a little put off by all of this.
	We have filed an FOIA request with the FAA, and the request was to seek any and all records, documents, and audio tapes regarding unidentified objects, light flares, or any other unusual airborne phenomenon in the vicinity of Phoenix on that particular night.
	All right.
	Hopefully you'll get some sort of a cogent answer to that, but I wouldn't hold my breath if this is as serious as it would appear to be.
	Now, you said one other thing when you called me earlier.
	You said that Phoenix has got FBI crawling all over it.
	Well, you know, we have a report that there are an unusual number of FBI personnel at a particular downtown hotel.
	And we are, and I got a report from two sources, so we are sending in somebody who's an investigator to check this out even further, to see if we can get an absolute verification on this.
	I also have, and I hesitate to repeat them, I don't like repeating them, but they make some sort of sense now.
	I have reports, and I've been getting continuing reports over the internet and elsewhere, That there are large army convoys headed for Phoenix.
	Here's one, for example, that says, at dawn on Wednesday, May 28th, a U.S.
	Army military convoy of more than 100 trucks and other vehicles departed for Phoenix from Fort Huachuca, is it?
	Near Sierra Vista.
	Huachuca.
	Huachuca, thank you.
	Near Sierra Vista, Arizona, 70 miles south east of Tucson.
	The media were told that, quote, the people have nothing to worry about End quote and this high-tech convoy is going to Phoenix for
	routine communications operations Were you aware of this report?
	Yes, I've gotten the same report myself on the internet and
	I'm also checking into that to see I don't know whether somebody was
	Sending some bogus report or whether this has some authenticity to it. I well, all right it goes on
	It is believed that this convoy is a blatant ploy.
	That this convoy is confirmation of a pre-planned attempt at placing Phoenix and most probably all of Arizona along the southwest border under martial law sometime in July of 1997 and it cites a notice to Governor Symington And General Van Dyke of the Arizona National Guard.
	Yes.
	So you're aware of all this?
	I am aware of that, yes.
	And I am looking into it further.
	Because I believe Francis also has the same report.
	Because I talked to her about it this morning.
	Alright.
	Do you have any sense, does all of this Have any meaning for you?
	Are you able to use a Hoaglandism?
	Connect any dots here?
	Do you have the slightest idea what the hell is going on?
	Well, Art, all I can say is, at this point in time, I'm looking into it.
	I don't know what's going on, and this is very bizarre, very strange activity that's going on.
	We're still getting sighting reports.
	I had a phone call tonight of something seen Monday night.
	So the sightings are continuing.
	They're not on such a large scale as on the 13th, but we have been getting reports since March 13th about military convoys.
	In fact, one week after March 13th, I heard there was a military convoy moving along McDowell Road down here in Phoenix, and witnesses talked to me about it.
	I heard that And here's a very strange thing.
	Bill, real quick, because we're out of time here.
	Okay.
	F-16s supposedly didn't go up that particular night.
	Now Lieutenant Colonel Houser is saying F-16s were in the air, but they didn't chase the UFO.
	But they... First they said flares, now they say there were no flares in the sky that night.
	Right.
	And there was no operation going on in the sky that night.
	Right.
	We're not getting any stories straight.
	Bill, let's stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Okay.
	All right, that's Bill Hamilton, folks.
	Coming up in a moment, Councilwoman Frances Barwood.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19th, 1997.
	🎵 Remember the day, when you first came my way 🎵 🎵 I said no one could take your place 🎵
	🎵 And if you get hurt, by the little things I say 🎵 🎵 I can put that smile back on your face 🎵
	When it's alright and it's coming up, we gotta get right back to where we started off.
	Love is good and love can be strong, we gotta get right back to where we started off.
	Why, Nancy?
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	Coming up in a moment, Councilwoman Frances Barwich.
	She is a councilwoman on the Phoenix City Council, where many of us are beginning to wonder if there is something astray with the water supply.
	Just kidding, Governor.
	So, to Frances Barwood in a moment.
	in the wings Richard Hoagland and Whitley Strieber as we try to make some sense of these senseless.
	Now, the mystery deepens and we go to Frances Barwood, councilwoman on the Phoenix City
	Frances.
	How are you?
	Confused?
	Well, we've got to stop meeting like this, Art.
	I understand you were on CBS's morning program, and also on ABC's Good Morning America, is that right?
	Well, no, it was CBS This Morning, and then this evening is Hard Copy.
	Hard copy.
	But then some of the others have been on the other show, so it's been kind of, this has been one of the most interesting days that I've had.
	Okay, let me read you yet another fax I've got that will set this up.
	At 12.30 this afternoon, the governor of Arizona called a press conference, said that he's going to call for an official investigation of the lights over Phoenix, said that he was going to get to the bottom of it since it's now making a stir in the media nationwide.
	At 5 o'clock he called another conference.
	This time he said it was all a joke and that the press is taking all of this too seriously.
	At the conference, he had someone who was all dressed up as an alien.
	And the faxer simply says, Francis, who in the hell got to him in that five hour period?
	Well, that's kind of an interesting question.
	I'll tell you, I started getting phone calls a little bit after the press conference, which was carried live on the TV station.
	Because apparently everybody thought that something had really occurred that he found out about.
	And the people that started calling me were very upset when they realized it was a joke.
	You're in politics, Frances.
	He's in politics.
	And you know Governor Symington's history probably better than the rest of us.
	How would you characterize this man?
	Is this a man who would do what he did today?
	This is really quite out of character for Fife.
	I've known him for a while and he is just kind of a common sense and logic type person.
	He is not a jokester.
	You know, somebody that you can sit down and talk with and will be sincere about things.
	And unlike the mayor, who you would not characterize as your best friend, you do have had a good relationship with the governor, right?
	Yes, I have.
	This was really astonishing.
	Today has been kind of like going on a merry-go-round, but I've had so many calls from news media across the country I've been on radio stations in towns that I've never been to, and then to have this announcement on the TV, on the news, just a little afternoon, was very exciting.
	I received phone calls from people saying, This is wonderful, you know, he's looking into this and, you know, now we'll get to the bottom of it.
	And I'm sure you felt the exhilaration of some vindication because here was the governor of the state calling for what you had simply called for and got so much trouble for.
	That's true.
	And it was, you know, one of the things that I said was, you know, well, I guess he's really, you know, not afraid because it seems like everybody else is afraid to deal with this.
	And then this evening as we were sitting down grabbing a bite to eat, I had the TV on and they had this live press conference and here he is saying, you know, they've got this breakthrough and it was a hoax and they caught the perpetrator and out walks this, you know, alien person.
	And it was like my husband just turned around and he goes, oh brother, it's a joke.
	And it's kind of a feeling you know it's like how can you joke about something that so many people feel so serious about and are so curious about whether they've seen it or didn't see it they know that something happened that night.
	Okay I sat and I tried to imagine why the governor assuming he's stable would do such a thing and the only thing I could come up with is he is in Under federal indictment, is that correct?
	That's correct.
	And, in fact, made a court appearance.
	Could it be, Frances, that noting the national publicity surrounding this, and knowing that the Phoenix, in fact, Arizona media, if not national, would possibly be reporting on his court appearance, that he could somehow divert The media attention from that court appearance.
	In other words, could that be a motivation?
	Well, he's been in court for I think about two weeks now.
	Uh-huh.
	And it's been every day.
	You know, morning session, afternoon session.
	And it's 23 counts that he's been indicted for.
	So there's nothing particularly unusual about this day.
	It was not a day of some resolution or announcement or No and as a matter of fact the lunch press conference that he had was about another subject and this was kind of a side issue and he just said you know oh and by the way we're going to be looking into these these lights that were over the valley and it was you know I mean wow you know everybody was like really excited and then by five o'clock
	It was obvious that he had totally changed.
	Can you offer any insight?
	No.
	Even a guess, Frances?
	It's just been really strange.
	An awful lot of people, like I said, not only called me, but Channel 3 had 70 calls in a half hour.
	uh... k f way i which is a station we get you on right uh...
	it with you know getting cut so many calls it was just non-stop
	and uh... my talk to some of the other radio stations and and they were having some of the reporters were very upset
	and they did that you know they've been just getting called in
	and people are very Angry.
	With regard to the original news conference, the media took it absolutely seriously.
	In other words, there was no wink and a nod or a little suggestion of a possible joke.
	So the media reported it as a very serious matter, didn't they?
	And not only that, but apparently only very few were in on this.
	It was his chief of staff, his, I think, press secretary, And two people from DPS and the rest of his staff and the rest of DPS did not know about it at all.
	And they had taken this also very seriously.
	And on television tonight they said that there are several people in DPS which who are very angry that you know they wasted their time and effort thinking that they were going to be investigating this and then to have it be just a joke.
	Can you confirm that even the tight circle around the governor knew that the original announcement was a joke?
	Well, I had called the governor's office right after the noon announcement.
	And I do speak to his secretary on, you know, I would say a couple of times a month.
	So in other words, right after the announcement, you got to speak to his secretary.
	Right.
	And she would have known.
	I would have thought so.
	And she said to me, I said, you know, I heard the announcement and I am really proud of the governor for doing this.
	And I said, can I talk to him?
	And she said, oh, well, he's back in court this afternoon.
	And I said, you know, this is great.
	Can you have him call me?
	And she said, well, he'll be out and around a little bit before five.
	I'll have him call you as soon as he's out of court.
	And I said, that's great.
	I just really want to tell him that I appreciate that he's kind of stuck his neck out and he's
	going to go ahead with this.
	And I said, how are things?
	And she said, this place down here is like a zoo.
	She goes, I don't know what the heck is going on, but it's just real active.
	And I mean, she said it in total sincerity.
	I had no doubt that that's exactly what was happening.
	So in other words, she wasn't chuckling.
	There was no little lilt of humor in her voice indicating to you this whole thing might be
	Right, and apparently the reason that things were active down there was because he had made the announcement that, you know, he's ordered this investigation and everybody was, you know, just kind of, oh, tell me more about it and all this kind of stuff.
	So, you know, up to that point, everything was, you know, just as everybody thought it was.
	If this was not a diversionary tactic, and it doesn't sound like now that it was, could it have been an intentional effort to yet pull this whole thing in Phoenix further into the chuckle factor category for some reason?
	I would hope not.
	First of all, he's not the type that's done this, you know, he's not a person that's It is a jokester at all.
	Has he had any comment to make in the ongoing situation between the mayor and yourself?
	Now the mayor has been, in my opinion, totally cruel to you.
	The aluminum foil thing, I got so angry about that last night I put on an aluminum foil hat.
	And I talked into the aluminum foil and I said, hello mayor, can you hear me?
	So I was having fun with that.
	Uh, it's not really so funny what they've been doing, what the mayor and others have been doing to you.
	And has the governor during this whole period had any comment on the whole ongoing thing?
	No, not at all.
	And, um, you know, like I said, it's, it's been interesting how people avoid talking about the lights over Phoenix, but, um, he's, he's, he's not at all like the mayor and, um, and I would hope that he would never get that way.
	But he's never been one to put anybody down, and I don't think this was an attempt to put me down either.
	Because he's not like that at all.
	So then we have an act done with no apparent motivation.
	Totally out of character.
	Let me ask you about the same thing that I just ran past Bill Hamilton, and that is the reports of FBI.
	in unusual numbers in Phoenix for some reason and of course even wilder reports of military convoys headed toward Phoenix.
	Can you confirm that you also have seen these and heard of these reports?
	I have both seen and heard of these reports.
	They look very official and they're very detailed.
	I don't know if You know, it is something that somebody took a long time to make up, or what's going on, but one of the things is that the report was that there are FBI and KGB agents.
	Excuse me?
	Whoa, stop.
	You did say KGB?
	Right.
	What would the KGB be doing here?
	I have not a clue.
	I had asked Bill Hamilton that.
	Apparently going on right now in Denver is the Big Eight meeting and tonight Yeltsin came in.
	Okay.
	But that's in Denver, that's not here.
	Big distance between Denver and Phoenix.
	But it seems that an awful lot of people are very focused on Phoenix right now.
	I honestly don't know what has triggered this, but it seems to be that everybody is anticipating something within this month.
	That something is going to happen in Phoenix.
	Yes.
	Now, I know you are a listener, when you can be, to my program.
	Right.
	We are going to shortly be going to Richard Hoagland.
	Richard Hoagland, incredibly, called this whole thing.
	24 hours prior to the beginning of all this, even the first report, that something big was about to happen in Phoenix.
	Did you hear?
	You heard part of that, didn't you?
	Yes, and I talked to Richard earlier tonight, and I'll tell you, it's getting pretty creepy.
	It's absolutely fascinating, and I'm kind of waiting for all the puzzle pieces to fit.
	Politically, now I know you are still, I guess the recall is going forward, you're being recalled.
	Well, it's kind of interesting because you know that right after the article appeared in the paper, the recall that had been put on hold was activated again, but two days later.
	So it's now activated again?
	Well, then it was challenged back in court, and then it was Kind of on hold, and last Friday, the 13th, the judge decided that even though the signatures were invalid... Wait a minute, there were invalid signatures on the recall petition?
	Right.
	In other words, signatures they could not verify as being on voter rolls?
	That kind of thing?
	Well, some were crossed out, and some were not notarized.
	And that normally would be thrown out, but he said that Our city clerk did the right thing by saying that they should not be considered, however, he was going to allow them.
	What?
	Yeah.
	It gets kind of interesting because the recall is September 9th and my term ends December 31st, so it will be actually a recall for three months.
	Why would they be going to all of this effort, in your estimation, to recall you when you're not going to be there anyway?
	I guess there are some people that really would not like to have me there.
	It's just interesting.
	I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous, and I only half mean it, but is there something in the water there?
	What's going on in Arizona, in Phoenix?
	There's definitely something in the air, but I don't know.
	So strange these last few days.
	It's like we're on an accelerated path.
	A lot of people now regard you as a very brave individual.
	Is there anything people can do to help you?
	I mean, would you like to have them call City Hall, have a discussion, write to the mayor, do something, anything?
	In other words, I see you that way myself.
	You were out front before anybody else got started on this.
	All you did was say, I mean, we've all seen it now, thank heavens.
	For whatever reason, they've been running this footage.
	There's another thing.
	Do you have any sense of how something that happened on March 13th, April, May, and now June, could suddenly be run by all of the national media, all at once like this?
	Any idea how that could happen?
	Well, they probably have decided that, you know, Wanted to, didn't want to be beat out by the other ones, I guess, because I think we've heard from every single station in existence.
	Yeah, but these reports that all ran at once, these were prepared reports.
	They weren't just thrown together at the last moment.
	I watched NBC Brokaw's report.
	ABC's was even more extensive.
	It takes time to do a report like that.
	Now, other people are saying, well, the USA Today led them.
	That's, in my opinion, totally impossible.
	They only would have had hours, not enough time.
	It just cannot explain the synchronicity of everybody doing it at once, a rather obscure story, all of a sudden blown up.
	It is interesting, isn't it?
	It just all hit the same day.
	I can't explain it other than, you know, maybe there is something significant about this Maybe there is for Phoenix.
	It's like somebody threw a switch again.
	Final question because we're running out of time.
	Is there anything people can do to help you?
	I would say, you know, definitely write to the mayor or call the mayor or fax him or email him and tell him, you know, to investigate this.
	But also the congressmen, the senators of the state of Arizona, You know, not to be afraid, and to find out what the heck went on.
	Alright, in other words, get a spine out there.
	Yeah, kind of.
	Get a clue.
	Don't be a wimp.
	Don't be a wimp, right.
	Frances, thank you.
	Stay tuned.
	Richard Hoagland is coming up.
	Thank you.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	The night featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	Top of the morning everybody.
	For those of you who missed the first hour, I'm sorry, you missed quite a bit.
	Radio Network presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired June 19th, 1997.
	Top of the morning, everybody.
	For those of you who missed the first hour, I'm sorry.
	You missed quite a bit.
	Bill Hamilton filled the first half hour.
	The investigator who took photographs of the lights over Phoenix,
	commenting on the lights, on the reports, on the occurrences of the day.
	An occurrence where the governor of Arizona came out in a serious, very deadpan, serious manner,
	and said it was time for an investigation of what went on over Phoenix.
	Then he went into court to face charges that he has been facing for some time and at about five o'clock came out and called quote an emergency Press conference in which he said it's all a joke and trotted out one of his Press people dressed as an alien to add to the joke part of it I just received a fax saying, Art, as much as I enjoy your show, it enrages me beyond measure that you trash Fife Symington's reputation with a statement like, is he stable?
	Well, it was not a statement.
	It was a question.
	And I meant it.
	I have nothing against Fife Symington.
	I've always had a lot of respect for him.
	But I think it is a reasonable question under the circumstances.
	It does not seem a stable action.
	And it does not seem, uh, Bob Mohan, I know Bob at KFYI, who says, Holy Father in Heaven, deliver me from the humorless people.
	That kind of humor, after this kind of story, with people being, people like, um, uh, Councilwoman Frances Barwood being trashed, uh, by the mayor of Phoenix, uh, you know, there's just not a whole lot of humor around this whole thing right now.
	So, I can't imagine that he would do that.
	Anyway, Bill Hamilton was followed by Councilwoman Frances Barwood.
	Both Frances and Bill confirm that there are a lot of FBI and, get this, KGB people in the Phoenix area.
	They both have heard the same reports of military convoys moving toward Phoenix.
	I know folks, this gets pretty weird.
	I just heard from Keith Rowland, my webmaster, who says there are now links on our site, www.artbell.com, to the CNN story about the Phoenix Lights and the Las Vegas story, Las Vegas Sun, which has an AP story on the whole thing with the Arizona governor that occurred during the day.
	So, again, I certainly, I have no...
	ill will or ill feeling toward the governor I simply have questions and under the circumstances a question about stability I think is entirely appropriate I don't mean it in a negative way I simply don't know what the hell's going on now coming up in a moment the guy I don't want to say who started all this but who called this as a psychic would call something Richard Hoagland He's coming on.
	He'll be followed by Whitley Streber who is patiently listening to all of this.
	now so there you are by the way i would like to again stress on behalf of
	councilwoman francis uh...
	barwood who's been fantastic through all of this and merely requested an
	investigation in the beginning uh... that all of you flood city hall
	with requests that the investigation actually be conducted and that they lay
	off francis barwood I would like to request that you do that wherever you are in the nation.
	If you have seen the light with your own eyes, see the light, so to speak, then, uh, would you not, if you were in Phoenix, want that investigated?
	All right, now, now we move to the man who, 24 hours before all of this began, appeared to call it, as a psychic would call something.
	Now, he, of course, is going to object to that, because he says there is pure science behind How he knew what was about to happen.
	And by the way, he thinks he knows more of what's going to happen.
	Richard C. Hoagland.
	But the following facts probably should set things up fairly well.
	It comes from, I think, Dean in Honolulu, Hawaii.
	Alright.
	The putrescent smell of control.
	Finger snapping.
	Sound effect added.
	And three TV networks and one major newspaper simultaneously giving coverage to the Phoenix Phenomena reaches far and wide, even out here in the Pacific.
	And that Richard Hoagland called the shot based on his tetrahedral physics is even more odorous.
	It is blatantly clear that there is an ongoing attempt by the unseen to control social opinion and focus.
	You pointed out the odds of such simultaneous occurrences are minuscule, I did indeed, but what may not have occurred to you is that Hoagland, and then, in parenthesis, Hoaxland, may in fact be part of the agenda machine, the convoluted path by which he arrives at his conclusions, which become predictions also defy all odds.
	Further, his methods go against all reason.
	That is, good science chooses and tests the simplest models of reality, not the most convoluted.
	I smell a rat, and the rat extends beyond the unseen agenda machine.
	Here is, um, if I can punch the right button, Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard.
	Good morning, Arif.
	Good morning.
	I did not expect to have you back on the air so soon.
	Neither did I. Events are as they are, Richard.
	I'm going to have to ask you to do what you usually don't do.
	And that is, we have a lot of news.
	And first, though, I think for the sake of continuity, you should try and explain to the audience, if that is possible for you, the shortest version possible of how you possibly arrived at what this faxer accuses you of, you know, arriving at a conclusion that you could not possibly, in his opinion, have arrived at.
	So try and explain to the audience how you got to where you got to.
	Well, I had a call this afternoon from the Arizona Republic, and I hope the reporter is listening, because I'm going to try to do it briefly one more time.
	All right.
	I sent that call to you.
	Thank you.
	This is science.
	This is not magic.
	This is not channeling.
	This is not, you know, I am not part of the C-word.
	I'm not part of Any conspiracy.
	What I find sad in Frank's communication is the idea that in this culture the only way you can know something's going to happen is if you're in on it.
	You know, if you have a deep throat, if you have a source, if you have some inside information, insider trading.
	Right.
	That good old-fashioned thinking is passé.
	That we are somehow slaves to an authoritarian pyramid where the only way you can ever know something Because somebody who knows more than you do tells you.
	Yes.
	And what I've been saying consistently from the beginning, for 15 years and in the last several years when we've been doing the show, is that I have a radically different, rather remarkably, you know, unique approach which is, why don't we try to figure it out ourselves?
	And in excruciating detail sometimes on your show particularly, I have laid out the process Whereby, I have arrived at certain conclusions, and I did the other night.
	Now, if Frank can't follow, if he doesn't get Redshift and run the numbers I've given, sources, references, you know, the qualitative torturous route is relative.
	And I'm using that as a pun.
	All right, give us a... Relativity.
	You know, let me finish.
	Relativity.
	Einsteinian relativity is not logical.
	It cannot be arrived at by just anybody.
	Albert Einstein arrived at relativity by an extraordinarily torturous route.
	Yet it is now accepted as science, as fact, as the way the universe works, not because of the route by which he arrived at it, but because of the experiments that proved he was probably right.
	So in other words, even if I had Einstein here explaining it all, I'd be getting faxes saying, damn it, tell Albert to get to the point.
	Well, you have faxes saying that although it goes against common sense, it violates Occam's razor.
	That's what this gentleman is referring to.
	And this is a fallacious myth about science.
	Because a lot of what we believe now in science is not the simplest explanation.
	It is the correct explanation.
	Now, how do we know it's correct?
	Because it predicts.
	This idea that only the simplest theory Is the correct one is totally off the beam.
	If I were to take the entire evening I could go through discovery after discovery.
	I know.
	Where in fact it is not a simple explanation that has turned out to be right by the criteria of a successful set of predictions.
	It's a much more interesting and complicated view of reality.
	So this is not simplistic and I'm going to obviously cut corners in trying to do this simply.
	Please.
	And what I did for the reporter was to say it the following way.
	We have on the table a certain database.
	We have a set of landings on the moon and other planets, particularly Mars, at a certain set of coordinates at a certain time.
	That's part of the public record.
	You cannot argue with them.
	And what we simply did was to take that factual database and plug it into a well-known computer program called Redshift.
	Which allows us to do not only simulations of the sky as seen from any spot on Earth, but from any spot on the Moon and on Mars.
	Okay.
	The only program I know that's available for, you know, under a hundred bucks that can do that.
	By the way, thank you for the present.
	I have yet to load it into the computer, but I have Redshift 2.
	Thank you.
	You're quite welcome, and happy birthday once again.
	So what we did was we simply put in the best available coordinates and times, as derived from official records, Most of which came from NASA themselves.
	Right.
	In particular, one source from the U.S.
	Geological Survey, Don Wilhelm, who wrote a brilliant book called To a Rocky Moon, published by the University of Arizona in 1994.
	And when we put these numbers into the computer, basically, credits time, latitude, longitude, and looked at the sky, nothing more complicated, we saw a stunning recurring pattern.
	And science begins in patterns.
	Correct.
	And the pattern was Osiris, and Sirius, and also Leo, which is connected.
	And it, obviously, for someone who's a generalist like myself, who knows, you know, on a first-name basis, people like Graham Hancock and Robert Bavall, and John West, and many others who have labored in the vineyards, and who knows a little bit about Egyptian mythology, it didn't take a rocket scientist, which I'm not, To realize that what I was seeing was a stunningly Egyptian pattern, and the capper was, when I rediscovered through Ken Johnston's private archive, the mission patch of Apollo itself, which featured Orion.
	We went to the moon under the banner of Orion.
	Boiled down information from Egypt has been driving NASA's agenda when they launch, when they land, where they land, the whole thing, for years and years and years.
	Is that about correct?
	For both manned and unmanned missions, and we now have database extending from the moon to Mars.
	Even the times when the photographs of Cydonia were acquired were taken when Orion was at 19.5.
	Uh-huh.
	When Leo was at a certain angle.
	All right, for a lot of Americans listening, this becomes very obscure, and they would ask, okay, fine, how then do you take that database and come up with a prediction about Phoenix, for heaven's sakes?
	As we were looking at the impending Mars Mission Pathfinder, because of the web now and the ability to get accurate data from inside NASA, from the honest side of NASA, from the engineers running the mission, on NASA's own website, there was posted a time on July 4th, when the Mars Pathfinder, as a bullet, it's not going to go into orbit, it's going to streak right from space to the ground in four minutes, When it was going to enter the Martian atmosphere at about 125 kilometers.
	I misspoke the other night.
	It's very high in the atmosphere when the entry into the air of Mars begins.
	Okay.
	And so I ran the computer program which had turned out this stunningly Egyptian mythological pattern for the Pathfinder landing on July 4th at entry interface of 1650 51 Greenwich Mean Time.
	Okay.
	That's 4, 50, 51 in the afternoon in Greenwich.
	Right.
	And nothing fit.
	Nothing significant.
	In other words, based on your entire database of looking at all these years of NASA missions.
	And seeing it work.
	And seeing it work.
	I found the exception that didn't work.
	Pathfinder suddenly didn't work.
	For it to arrive on July 4th, didn't fit, nothing fit, nothing worked.
	For it to work, Pathfinder would have to arrive, not on the 4th, but on the 20th.
	And you said last night... Well, I ran the 20th, and this is why I ran the 20th.
	Because everything else about Pathfinder is tetrahedral.
	It is the encapsulation, the epitomization of this whole 19.5 business.
	Yes, sir.
	The shape of the spacecraft is tetrahedral.
	They left Earth when Mars was at 19.5 degrees above the horizon.
	They are landing on Mars at 19.5 degrees.
	Like Viking was supposed to do 20 years ago?
	If it lands on the 4th.
	Yeah, well, no matter what time it lands, it's targeted, we're told, for 19.5.
	Right, we're told.
	So that's what impelled me to look and see if the celestial part of it also fit the pattern.
	And it didn't.
	Nothing fit.
	No.
	So then I said, okay, it's obvious we're missing a clue here.
	I wonder if it could be so blatant as to be on the 20th.
	And they just haven't gotten around to telling all of us out here who are paying for it.
	So I ran the program.
	And see, again, Art, it's the extraordinary power of the desktop and the laptop computers.
	Oh, yes.
	Oh, yes.
	Without this, they'd be getting away with murder like they've been doing for 30 years.
	Careful about your words, because we have more news.
	I was thinking that myself.
	Yeah, OK.
	So I ran the pattern for the 20th.
	I ran the program, and bingo, the pattern popped out.
	At the time on the 20th.
	Which they are claiming on their website that they are going to land.
	Not only is Orion at 19.5 at 19.5 on Mars that evening, but a little bit away, several hundred miles around the planet, at Cydonia, Leo is dead set on the meridian with the face of the Martian Sphinx looking at his counterpart in the Martian sky.
	And simultaneously on the Moon, at Tranquility, the hallmark of the first landing on July 20th back in 69, After umpteen revolutions and processions and mutations, because these bodies are rolling and pitching like ships in a high sea in three dimensions.
	Sure.
	This is not a static universe, it's a constantly moving set of spinning little objects.
	Understood.
	So to get at a certain place and time on three separate worlds and have everything fit, bingo, is overwhelmingly impossible.
	Not arcane, not torturous, just impossible.
	Impossible, so...
	The computer popped out, Orion, 19.5 degrees over the horizon of tranquility, next to the vacant landing site of Apollo 11.
	And because of March 13th and the events over Phoenix, lost in dim memory now except for a spate of news coverage in the last 24 hours, I said, I wonder about Phoenix.
	And that of course got me thinking about the meaning of Phoenix, which of course Suddenly, you know, you get hit between the eyes.
	For God's sake, Phoenix is one of two American cities which are tied in to this whole Egyptian mythos.
	Do you know the other one?
	Washington, D.C.?
	No.
	No?
	Memphis, Tennessee.
	Memphis?
	No kidding.
	Okay.
	I would have said Washington federalized in the way that you have explained to me Phoenix.
	No, I'm talking mythologically and symbolically.
	Memphis, of course, after Memphis and Egypt.
	I don't want to get too far out because we're going to lose people, Richard.
	So, the Phoenix connection, it hits you between the eyes.
	The Phoenix is the encapsulation of the whole Egyptian mythos.
	Osiris Orion represents reincarnation.
	The Phoenix represents reincarnation.
	The new born from the old.
	The new born from the ashes of the old.
	So I'm looking at Phoenix, and I'm looking at this Egyptian connection, and I thought, my God, what if I ran the stars over Phoenix?
	And I put them in the computer, and not only do they work precisely for the 20th of July of this year, They also work going back to the first landing on the moon.
	All right, hold it tight right there.
	We'll be right back to you, bottom of the hour from the high desert.
	This is CBC.
	I'm Art Bell.
	There's much more to come.
	Don't touch that dial.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19th, 1997.
	19, 1997.
	I can't survive, can't save a life without your love. Oh baby, don't leave me this way. I can't exist, I'll surely
	miss your tender kiss. Don't leave me this way.
	Oh baby!
	No!
	Oh baby!
	Oooh, oh-oh-oh, ooh Oooh, ooh-ooh-ooh
	You can dance You can die
	We'll make the time of our life Oooh, see that girl
	Watch that seat Take a standing queen
	Oooh, ooh-ooh-ooh, ooh Friday night and the lights are low
	Looking up on the moon...
	Somewhere in Time on Premiere.
	Radio Networks. Tonight an on-call presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	I have a variety of guests this morning lined up for you.
	Richard Hoagland presently and we're going to try to get this wrapped up shortly. And
	there's a big shot coming toward the end of this so prepare yourself.
	and then comes Whitley Streber with yet another shock.
	Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, we've got to get this done quickly.
	Basically, you have explained the connection, years of work, literally, of plotting this, computer projections, and the fact is, the Pathfinder has got to land not on the 4th, because it's all wrong, but on the 20th.
	So, based on that, you made several predictions.
	One, that Pathfinder would, in the next few days, be lost And then suddenly, magically found again, but there would be a new date for the landing, which would then be the 20th, not the 4th, and it would not be where they originally wanted to land, but instead, Cydonia.
	That's basically correct.
	See, the problem is, how do you get from here to there?
	And one scenario is, they have to lose it, and then discover it too late to correct a problem, so their backup is, well, everybody wants to go to Cydonia, Donna Shirley, who's the program manager at JPL, said at the launch that even if we just get it down there, it's a success.
	So politically, that appeared to be a reasonable scenario to satisfy the numbers, the pattern.
	What's important, Art, is this is an extraordinary plan, which is literally decades in the making.
	When you talk to aerospace engineers as we have, when you have people like Marzarnik, who is a former NASA, you know, Employee of the Year, won awards from NASA, McDonnell Douglas Engineer, I think he's listening tonight, in and out of Houston, you know, a Blue Ribbon member of the elite team that got us to the moon.
	When you present him with this data, which I did several months ago in St.
	Louis, and he literally had his draw fall on the floor as part of the flight team that did the calculations for orbit, for rendezvous, for lunar landing, part of the program since before Mercury, And he affirms, and colleagues of his caliber, that there's no way this pattern can exist unless it was an unwritten prime directive, the most important thing on the runway, and everything else flowed from it.
	You know you're onto something.
	Alright, so you didn't channel this, it's good, hard science.
	With the availability of modern democratized technology, thank God for Bill Gates, and, you know, computer programs like Redshift.
	All right, and so based on that, you predicted that something was going to occur in Phoenix, and by God, within 24 hours, all hell has broken loose.
	And the reason is, there is an inexplicable but ineluctable connection in the stellar pattern between Phoenix and Mars and Cydonia.
	And at this point, you suspect more will occur in Phoenix.
	We talked privately about it.
	I think it's better not aired.
	What do you think?
	Let's just say that I would like an awful lot of people crawling over the story and asking why all the weirdness.
	The governor's actions are inexplicable, unless there is other pressures being brought to bear, to my opinion.
	The fact that we have federal agents, apparently, in Phoenix.
	The fact that we have rumors of troop movements.
	The fact that we have now rumors of KGB agents.
	Something pretty interesting is occurring in Phoenix.
	And the numbers and the pattern says it's connected to a NASA mission, which is now just days away from Mars.
	Pathfinder.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Now, let me give you two pieces of information.
	I would like your reaction to it, and then we'll go on.
	Palo Alto, California, June 17th.
	That was my birthday.
	UPI.
	Two adults and two teenagers are being held on suspicion of beating a NASA scientist to death Friday in Palo Alto.
	The suspects were booked for investigation of murdering Herbert, Bert K., who was killed Friday on a downtown street not far from his home, around the corner from the police station.
	Kaufman said K.' 's body, get this, was found stuffed between an oak tree and a fence.
	K-38 was a computer scientist at NASA Ames Research Center in Mountain View.
	He moved to Palo Alto about two months ago with his wife and two-year-old twin daughters.
	Now, NASA Ames Research Center, Computer Scientist.
	Now, come forward to yesterday, now yesterday, or the day before, really, Washington Associated Press.
	Listen to me carefully, folks.
	The director of a space exploration program at NASA was killed when a tree fell on his car during a violent thunderstorm.
	Jergen H. Raugh, I believe it is, R-A-H-E, 57.
	Brace yourself now.
	Science director for NASA's Solar System Exploration Program was killed Wednesday night As he drove near his home in Potomac, Maryland, a Washington suburb, Ra was in charge of the overall management of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's program of sending robot craft to explore planets beyond the Earth.
	He was, now listen carefully, the general manager of the Galileo spacecraft mission to Jupiter, And the Mars Pathfinder, a mission that will include an unmanned landing on Mars July 4th.
	Richard?
	When I was at Cape Canaveral a few months ago for the Mars Surveyor launch in November, some of our contingent went over to the press site on Merritt Island, which is where I used to hang out Back in my days covering the moon launches for Cronkite and CBS.
	And they built a brand new press center.
	It makes me drool compared to what we used to have to work with.
	And they have lots of exhibits and they have press computers and it's glittering and it's gold and it's lavish for the press.
	And I went in hoping to collect material on Pathfinder and on Surveyor and I was struck As I walked in the door by a photograph of a very young lady in her mid-thirties, framed in black crepe, and in memoriam below the photograph.
	And it turned out that the day before the Surveyor launch on November 3rd, this young lady, who had been the Mars Pathfinder Program Manager at JPL, had died suddenly and tragically from an embolism During a routine hospital stay in California, in Arcadia, just east of Pasadena.
	Now, I don't remember her name.
	And at the time, I was, you know, I was shocked because it's like, you know, part of the NASA family.
	But I didn't think anything of it.
	Tonight, when I saw, two days ago, I saw the computer person story from Palo Alto.
	Yeah.
	Then I got to thinking about this hard.
	And obviously, I didn't want to leap to any conclusions.
	The audience should know the final data has just been uploaded to Pathfinder, the computer data.
	In other words, it has received its final instructions.
	When was that sent, Richard?
	Early this morning on the 19th.
	As I told you two days ago, this was the, we calculated the last time, five days before the actual burn on the 24th, when the spacecraft could receive the instructions loaded in the computer for autonomous function.
	If it's going to disappear anytime between now and the 24th, it could, and it could carry out its instructions completely cut off from all ground command.
	All right, now we have a computer scientist killed.
	Now, what one could imagine... And now he is definitely murdered.
	We have an apparent accident in Washington 24 hours later.
	Well, one at a time.
	The guy murdered is a computer scientist.
	At NASA Ames, which is part of the targeting and control Instructions for the Pathfinder.
	So, in other words, he would have been part of the team that sent the instructions to Pathfinder.
	The final instructions.
	Exactly.
	Okay.
	We'll leave that alone now.
	I think the audience understands the implication there.
	Now, the gentleman... Not the allegation, just the implication.
	Now, let's move forward.
	Now we've got the guy in charge of Mars Pathfinder.
	The whole Solar System Exploration Program.
	A tree fell on his car and killed him.
	Now think of the sequence.
	We did our program on Tuesday night, Wednesday morning.
	Right.
	This occurs less than 12 hours later.
	That's right.
	If someone in a position of authority quietly began asking questions based on information that we were providing, one can again draw very disturbing conclusions.
	I was not there.
	I don't know if a tree did fall on him.
	The police in California on the murder are not answering any questions as to motives or any other details.
	In fact, they're dead quiet about it right now.
	Which is interesting.
	What disturbs me most is the first death, which occurred in November, a month before Pathfinder launched, when the program manager of this program suddenly dies under Unusual circumstances in a hospital of an embolism.
	Now, when you look at the NASA family, which is 21,000 people and falling, and you look at the much tinier Pathfinder family within that NASA community of tops, maybe a couple hundred people, having three people die within a few months under strange circumstances, all associated key people, people with responsibilities and managerial and expert positions Who could know something if there was something to know?
	I think borders on incredible and needs an investigation, given what the numbers say, what the pattern says, and what's going on currently around Phoenix.
	Not to mention, and we discussed in some detail this morning, you and I were both absolutely astounded and amazed that an event occurring March 13th would suddenly be reported by all this mass media Here in the middle or latter part of June, it seems unreasonable beyond all expectations.
	And yet, it occurred.
	Well, there's no triggering event.
	There's no big UFO thing that's appeared over here in New York, let's say, or over Washington, to where they haul out from the file the latest, previous city which had something.
	Roswell is not yet really cranked up, so there's no reason for them to have done this.
	Now, we discussed triggering events.
	For example, the USA Today, you told me, decided at about 10 o'clock that night they were going to run the story.
	I have a source who called USA Today in Washington.
	And contacted an editor yesterday.
	Right.
	And asked point blank, why did you run the story?
	Right.
	And he said that his editor, his senior editor, came in at 10 o'clock Pacific time, which is when you go on the air, and said abruptly, we're changing the front page and we're going to put this story from Phoenix inside, you know, basically stop the presses.
	All right.
	The USA Today newspaper is a good newspaper, but it is not of the caliber of the Washington Post or the New York Times.
	Which one can, uh, could imagine would drive the network's agenda to follow themselves with a story.
	Plus the fact that the networks ran stories that obviously had been prepared in advance.
	I work with Cronkite.
	I can tell you how much effort it goes in to prepare the caliber of stories we saw on Broke-On Jennings that night.
	You don't do it in a couple hours.
	And continue to run, by the way, to this very hour on CNN.
	Hour after hour after hour.
	So, it is reasonable to conclude that somebody said, now.
	Is it reasonable, Richard?
	I think it's very reasonable.
	Again, the most disturbing part of this is the body count is climbing.
	And I have a very simple recommendation, which I hope America is going to listen very carefully to, and please follow.
	Frances Barwood said last night, she affirmed, that Ted Koppel is seriously considering an investigation of the Phoenix Lights.
	Yes.
	I would like the Art Bell audience, which has come through before and has made a difference with AP and others, To simply fax Ted Koppel.
	He is having a production meeting tomorrow, my sources told me about an hour and a half ago, on this specific subject.
	If you were to fax him, and I will give out two fax numbers, and they're on our website at EnterpriseMission.com.
	If interested people who would like to get to the bottom of this, I don't frankly trust faxes going to the City Council of Phoenix because There is obviously a cover-up going on.
	I'm just trying to help her out politically.
	Frances is alone.
	She is a pioneer standing alone.
	But Ted Koppel can't be bought.
	Ted Koppel, against NASA's overt wishes, responsibly credited me with the Europa work many years ago.
	He also did not follow in lockstep with the reporting suddenly of the Phoenix Lights.
	He did not do a snap thing, which could have been easy for ratings.
	He could have called Frances and said, we're going to do it tonight.
	And I've gotten it out of the way.
	Instead, there is a serious meeting tomorrow to consider the evidence marshaled on many fronts now.
	And he promised me, when I met with him several years ago, that when we could bring him substantial evidence of unusual irregularities, if not wrongdoing, that he would put the entire investigative unit at the disposal of finding out what was going on.
	All right, well, we've put a lot of it together tonight, so give us those fax numbers.
	Okay.
	The numbers are, uh, ABC 202-222-7976.
	This is a direct fax into the Nightline Unit in Washington, D.C.
	All right.
	202-222-7976.
	In other words, urge, uh, Mr. Coppell to have, uh, Ms.
	Barwood on.
	Put the kind of investigative resources behind the governor's statements, the stonewalling on the part of the city, the Air Force actions, the senatorial dismissals in terms of the letters that she sent that got put in the round file, and the possible connection to the NASA-Mars story with three key players suddenly dead in nine months.
	Alright, the second fax number.
	202-222-7680 I believe that if enough people simply say that you can be the arbiter of honesty in this situation, conduct an appropriate investigation, and when you present the facts, we'll believe you because you have a track record of doing this, I think Ted will respond.
	Richard, I appreciate your coming on tonight.
	I know you weren't necessarily prepared to do it, but events propelled it, and I appreciate your coming on.
	Well, we have additional information, which, as you know, I need more time to present.
	We're doing a very intensive historical search now on the origin and founding of Phoenix, and connections to Washington, to President Ulysses Grant.
	We've turned up some pretty interesting things that are consistent With this masonic pattern in NASA.
	All right.
	Allow us to get into detail next week on that.
	At the moment, I've got a scoot, but you have done yourself proud.
	Thank you, Richard.
	Well, I can't wait to hear what Whitley's going to think of all this.
	Coming up next, right.
	Thank you, Richard, and good night.
	Thanks, Art.
	I'm Art Bell.
	As the worm continues to turn, coming next from San Antonio, Texas, Whitley Strieber.
	As the old expression goes, don't touch that dial.
	You're listening to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 19th, 1997.
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	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from June 19th, 1997.
	Good morning.
	If you're just joining us, what you have missed is Bill Hamilton, the investigator, who took the original photographs of the lights over Phoenix, or at least some of them, and a description of a very bizarre day in Arizona, one in which the governor of the state called for an investigation, seriously so, Went into a courtroom where he was facing federal charges, came out, called an emergency news conference, and said it was all a joke.
	We followed that then with Councilwoman Frances Barwood, and she gave us her reaction to all of that, as well as the rumors of military activity and the strange occurrences in Phoenix.
	Then, she was followed by Richard Hoagland, Who is under suspicion by many people now of knowing something that he could not have known Simply because he called it all and said watch Phoenix something is about to happen and it sure as hell did Coming up in a moment Whitley Strieber.
	I do have however one comment that is kind of Off-track from all of this, but I want to make it It will be perceived by many that I'm making this because of past anger over what has been done to me by a certain cartoonist named Steve Benson, who is a syndicated cartoonist in Phoenix.
	Now, yesterday during the program, somebody called up and described the latest outrage by Mr. Benson that appeared in the Arizona Republic newspaper.
	Mr. Benson used that now very famous, I guess that's the right word, tragic photograph of the fireman holding the dead child after the bombing in Oklahoma.
	It's one of those benchmark photographs, you know, that generations to come we'll see To mark that tragedy.
	And as you know, Mr. McVeigh has been sentenced to death in connection with that bombing.
	Mr. Benson apparently is an anti-death penalty person.
	And so he took that cartoon.
	And I'm paraphrasing because I don't have it in front of me.
	But roughly, he put captions above the baby and above the fireman.
	And the baby was saying something like, um, haven't enough died already.
	Haven't enough died.
	And the fireman looking down at the baby, you've seen the photograph almost everybody in America has, the fireman is captioned as saying, stop your whining.
	This is, in my opinion, the most insensitive outrageous horrendous example of a man who is clueless and I think there should be a flush Benson campaign and I mean flush Benson campaign and I would urge everybody who was offended by that cartoon
	To call the Arizona Republic tomorrow morning and suggest exactly that, that Benson be flushed.
	We don't need this kind of thing.
	And I just can't imagine where this clueless man is coming from.
	He was interviewed on CNN.
	As a matter of fact, they're running a story on it since we had it yesterday morning.
	They're running a story on it on CNN today.
	And Benson does his usual silly little dance of suggesting that why it doesn't mean necessarily in an editorial cartoon what it seems to mean.
	B.S.
	Mr. Benson, it obviously means exactly what you intended it to mean.
	And it was hurtful.
	They interviewed the mother of that child.
	They interviewed people who had seen the cartoon, really wrong name for that tragic depiction.
	And as far as I'm concerned, Mr. Benson ought to be gone.
	And when Mr. Benson did a cartoon of me, implicating me as one of the ones that caused the explosion at the Oklahoma Federal Building, Monroe Federal Building, I had him on the air.
	And he talked extensively about the First Amendment.
	And he's right.
	There is a First Amendment.
	But Mr. Benson, the First Amendment cuts both ways.
	I'm a public person.
	And you're a public person.
	And Mr. Benson, I would like to see you fade quickly into obscurity.
	Flushed.
	And I would hope that all of the people out there that are offended by that disgusting, disgusting cartoon will call the Arizona Republic, urging them to flush you, Mr. Benson.
	Incidentally, having said that, well, as a matter of fact, let me pause because I just wanted to get that off my chest.
	I just couldn't believe he did that.
	Uh, so, um, that's off my chest.
	And in a moment, um, we're going to Whitley Streber, who's been listening to all of this patiently, very patiently, in, uh, San Antonio.
	And I'm sure has comments.
	and you have no doubt an emotional reaction.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 19th, 1997 on Ark Bells Somewhere in Time.
	Ark Bells Somewhere in Time.
	From Sean in Yucca Valley.
	The implications of the seemingly orchestrated behavior of the national media are alarming in the extreme.
	Could it be just an incredibly bizarre coincidence?
	If a locus of power exists capable of manipulating broadcast content and timing to the pervasive degree implied by yesterday's lockstep media eruption To what end would those exercising this extraordinary power blatantly show their hands at this time and in this unusual context?
	To risk exposing this most un-American capability under anything but the most pressing circumstances simply does not make sense.
	Can things possibly get any stranger?
	And here to comment on that, and all we've been talking about, from San Antonio, is Whitley Streber, author of Communion and much more.
	Whitley, welcome to the program.
	Glad to be here, Art.
	There has been a confluence of events in the past several days that seem impossible.
	Well, it suggests the presence of some kind of structure.
	Behind the events that is not publicly visible.
	I think that there are a number of possibilities as to why this thing that happened in Phoenix would suddenly be seized on just at this particular time.
	Recalling that events like this are not uncommon in the world.
	I mean, what happened in Phoenix was by no means the most extraordinary UFO sighting in history.
	No, it was one of the bigger ones, but not the biggest.
	In terms of the modern United States, I think it probably is because of the degree to which it was photographed and the number of people who saw it.
	But it pales by comparison to things that have happened, for example, in Mexico.
	Sure.
	As a matter of fact, I was talking to somebody, Lee and Britt Elders, and the Mexican equivalent of the anchor for 2020, and he said... Did you know that there had been an actual collision and damage between a UFO and a commercial Mexican aircraft?
	Oh, yes, I was aware of that.
	An actual collision and many, many close encounters.
	Many close encounters.
	Pilots were...
	quite disturbed about it for a period of time because of because of the fact that
	some of also had to take a basic maneuvers at times yes yes to avoid
	collision with anyway though
	why would they if it
	it's hard to believe that there is not some kind of orchestration going with
	this it could be just that that uh...
	usa today put the story up in the others realize they had some file footage in
	the ran to use it to because they knew they would get good ratings they all
	love it you have both story as i know but you know they came up with
	interviews from people in phoenix on a street uh... do with you during the
	daylight hours wiggly i can't buy it
	they could not have put it on the back quickly i had a uh... an example of this in my in my own writing career
	when i published breakthrough
	Two weeks before the publication of Breakthrough, Parade Magazine, which is very widely circulated, as you know, Sunday Magazine, suddenly came out with, in its celebrity section, a story to the effect that I had admitted that I had temporal lobe epilepsy.
	Really?
	Two weeks before the publication of the book, and it hurt the book.
	It must have hurt the book a great deal.
	They had not mentioned me before in Trade Magazine, I don't think, ever.
	The story, of course, was totally false.
	I published in Transformation detailed results of the medical tests I took proving I did not have that disease.
	I never said I had it.
	I never implied I had it at any time.
	They just seemed to have pulled this out of thin air, claiming that the National Epilepsy Foundation Uh, counted me as a celebrity who had this disease.
	How did you, uh, react to that story?
	I sent them an extremely angry letter threatening to sue, and, uh, about a week or two, or two weeks after the, uh, about three weeks later they published a retraction, a prominent retraction.
	It wasn't small, it was quite large.
	Uh, but the damage, I think, had been done.
	Sure.
	My point is, I find it very difficult to believe that that was an accident.
	And therefore have always looked for orchestration and structure behind the scenes in this whole business.
	So my question here is really not, was it orchestrated?
	My question is rather, why was it orchestrated?
	Because I've seen that kind of orchestration in my own life.
	One possibility that no one has mentioned, and Richard's Incredibly fascinating conversation with you, by the way.
	I was just absolutely amazed by his ideas.
	I'm telling you, if he's right, he goes up there with Moses and the other prophets.
	I know.
	And if he's wrong, it was a very, very interesting try.
	In any case, maybe they have found out what this is.
	And it's being built up to be torn down.
	Or they think that they can convince the public like they did with the crop circles some years ago, when they had that ridiculous business of Doug and Dave marching around with boards on their feet.
	Yes, the home chains, yes.
	You know, that ended the coverage of crop circles in the United States permanently.
	Well, it did.
	You didn't happen to hear a Doug Ruby that I had on, did you?
	What a fascinating fellow he is.
	A commercial airline pilot.
	Oh yes, I did.
	I take that back.
	I did hear him, yes.
	Absolutely a fascinating take on crop circles, and so simple, and yet nobody else came up with it.
	He discovered if you spin them, you are able to decipher them.
	Yes, that's right.
	God, that was absolutely fascinating.
	Yeah, and I meant to have a whole collection of crop circle photographs and I was meaning to get them
	spinning and I have never not done it yet. It's interesting, it's fascinating. Again
	referencing the deaths, one obviously a murder of a NASA scientist, a computer scientist, and the
	other ostensibly said to be an accident with a tree falling on the fellow who had overall
	management responsibility for Mars Pathfinder and more, all robot craft exploring beyond Earth.
	If you imagine the worst, Whitley, it's enough to reduce you to tears. Could it be?
	Well, obviously it's possible that there is somebody here who does not know what to do.
	not more of to understand
	who they are and what they're doing in which case
	uh... we would then view
	the efforts that that are made to get this the sort of
	halting efforts that are made to reveal things such as what i think is going to happen
	shortly with regard to roswell and more air force disclosure
	Yeah, we're going to get way to you folks here what's going on with Roswell.
	I'm getting ready to drop your teeth.
	Yeah, drop your teeth.
	Anyway, it can be read as an attempt on the part of a trapped government to squeeze what information it can out.
	It can also be read as an attempt on the part of a government which is mishandled something very important quite badly to keep things keep a cap on things.
	The point is that there's lots of different ways of looking at every one of these of these of these issues and it's important not to close the door because so much of this is in question.
	Like for example we don't actually have any idea of what a UFO is.
	We all assume they might be a street alien spacecraft but Who knows?
	We actually don't know at all.
	That's right.
	We don't know what the close encounter experience is, or even if the two things are related.
	We're really in the dark about all of this.
	And it's another reason, by the way, why if this does represent some sort of misshapen official attempt to handle the whole thing, it shows that we have no idea how to handle something like this.
	I mean, I'm referring to the sudden explosion of interest months after the events and the ridiculous posturing by the governor and on and on.
	It seems like a display of extraordinary incompetence to suddenly have what is, after all, old news appear On the TV to the point where friends who are unconnected with this were calling me all day and saying, talking about the sightings that happened in Phoenix yesterday.
	I know.
	I know.
	It's impossible.
	I consider it to be impossible.
	I mean, I thought all day about it, and you could take the position that, well, the USA Today ran a story and everybody else came along.
	Well, the USA Today is a good newspaper, but it doesn't really push network agendas the way, say, The Post does, Washington Post or The New York Times.
	Well, look at the way it works.
	I mean, if you look back in the past six months or so, at the general tenor of coverage, the networks don't generally pick up on USA Today at all.
	It's soft.
	It's a soft news kind of thing.
	It's a good newspaper.
	I'm not running it down.
	I'm just saying it doesn't set agendas the way the Post does.
	But also, a three-month-old story is not news.
	It's not news, except that it is suddenly.
	Yeah.
	So, I am convinced, and again, when you begin sort of ruminating about the implications of this kind of managed news, it's again almost enough to reduce you to tears, because we're supposed to have a free, open press.
	Well, yeah, it suggests Orchestration by powers that are able to supersede that freedom, quite clearly.
	Now, I watched during the Rancho Santa Fe business, the way the press handled things, and I learned, Whitley, that the press will tell a story the way they want to tell it, and God help anybody who gets in the way with facts.
	They don't want to hear them.
	If it spoils the way they want to tell the story, they will roundly ignore any fact that gets in the way.
	That's bad enough but to imagine that there's somebody out there capable of snapping their fingers and causing coverage for some as yet unknown reason of an event in Phoenix is just it's horrendous and yet I cannot come to any other conclusion.
	I can't.
	There was no triggering event except maybe Roswell but I mean we're not there yet.
	We're not there just yet, but we're getting there, and there's that story in Time Magazine about Roswell, and there's been some coverage in the New York Times about it, and I think that there's probably a substantial number of people in the media who would like to use public interest in the Roswell incident to bring closure to the whole UFO issue, to end it the same way the crop circles were ended.
	Well, if they're trying to end it with what we're about to explain to the audience, then... It's interesting, isn't it?
	All right, look.
	Hold it right there, Whitley.
	When we come back, let's tell them what the Air Force is about to say, third time around now, about Roswell.
	Get ready, folks.
	As he said, your teeth will drop out.
	if they're capable of doing that, maybe even if they aren't.
	You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	Coast to Coast AM, I'm Art Bell.
	[♪ music begins ♪ and continues throughout video ♪].
	[♪ music continues throughout video ♪].
	[♪ music continues throughout video ♪].
	Premier Radio Networks presents Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight's program originally aired June 19, 1997.
	Somebody just sent me the Benson cartoon and there's an article below it entitled editorial cartoonist unapologetic amidst storm over bombing image and they show it here and again it shows that very famous photograph of the fireman with the poor child in his arms and Benson has relabeled the fireman's badge to say death penalty fanatics and the baby the baby is saying please no more killing and the fireman is looking down at the baby if you recall the shot saying in Benson's caption oh stop your whining
	And I think that Steve Benson ought to be flushed like a bad dream.
	And I am urging my listeners, not only in Phoenix, but everywhere across the country, to call the Arizona Republic and tell them to flush this guy.
	Goodbye, Benson.
	Go somewhere else.
	Go take this kind of trash somewhere else.
	Am I being clear enough?
	If you are as offended as I am by this, and I really am, and so are a lot of people, then make your voice heard.
	Call the Arizona Republic.
	Jam their phone lines with your opinion.
	You see, Mr. Benson, who stands next to and many times behind the First Amendment in authoring this kind of trash, needs to understand the first amendment cuts two ways both
	ways ladies and gentlemen
	it cuts both ways you have a right to express your opinion
	as do i mister benson is as i am a public and
	all right i look we're about to tell you what's occurring roswell but again here
	comes a fax from carol in mesa Actually, Kerry in Carroll.
	Dear Art, here's a thought.
	After hearing what Bill Hamilton, Francis, and Richard had to say this evening, it got us to thinking and talking.
	If indeed there are Feds here, NASA folks here, KGB here, military troops here, now I have to ask, why?
	Why would they need to declare martial law here?
	What would prompt it?
	Is it possible that they have received the wow signal from out there and have some advance warning that a landing is going to take place?
	It surely would be the government's reaction to declare a state of emergency should that occur.
	And of course, the Russians would be present as well.
	In 1947, either the same day or the day before, There was a UFO crasher in Phoenix.
	Now, what if Roswell has, all these years, been the decoy and the real action or activity took place here?
	And on the 50th anniversary, someone is coming back.
	Whitley?
	Well, I wonder.
	It'd be funny if everyone gathered in Roswell on the 50th anniversary.
	And it came down in Phoenix.
	And it came down in Phoenix.
	Yeah, I'm going to be in Roswell.
	In fact, I'm giving the keynote speech at the dinner, so I certainly hope that if anything happens, it happens there and not in Phoenix.
	Just on that particular day, any other time, Phoenix is welcome to have it.
	One of the investigators, Whitley, who is analyzing the video from Phoenix, suggested the other night on national TV, NBC, I saw it, he said, you know, what if In essence, what if the very fact that we are talking about them, thinking about them, beginning to celebrate the 50th anniversary, what if that fact in itself is enough, going back to this telepathic communication angle, to in effect bring them back?
	So much attention being paid to it.
	Well, that is an interesting question.
	It is a question that goes in my life back for many years.
	I guess it was in 1989 that I realized that there probably was some sort of cover-up going on.
	The reason I realized this is that one of my uncles, Colonel Edward Streber, after reading Communion, I guess it was in 1988 that this happened.
	He told me that he had been aware of what went on at Wright Field back in the late 40s.
	He introduced me to General Arthur Exum, who told me that he was quite involved in it and that everyone from Truman on down had known that it was a craft of unknown origin, probably from another world almost immediately after it had been found.
	And I used some of the things that they said in my book, Majestic, because they made me promise that I would not state any of the details that they discussed with me as fact.
	My uncle subsequently has passed away, and I've sort of been left with that promise.
	So I have never gone into too much detail about what he said, but one of the things That we did discuss was why there would be so much secrecy.
	He said, well, I have a theory.
	It was a kind of abstruse theory relating to the fact that our acknowledgment of their presence enabled them to come into our world.
	It had something to do with the physics of perception.
	I wrote a short story about it called The Open Doors, which I think expressed his fears
	and certainly the way they were communicated to me very clearly and might just be the reason
	why this state of denial exists.
	I mean to the point where when we begin to talk about the latest Roswell thing, it's
	going to be quite clear that they are willing to go to almost conical lengths to continue
	this denial even far beyond the point where it makes any sense.
	Comical is right.
	All right, let's do it.
	Now, the history is something crashes in 1947 in Roswell.
	We have many witnesses documenting that it was not a weather balloon.
	Jesse Marcel, Major, who would be well familiar with what a balloon was and wasn't, And a radar target.
	Yeah.
	It was originally thought to be a radar target.
	Right.
	So then the famous picture of Major Marcel apparently being forced to hold up a little balloon and say, here it is.
	It wasn't a saucer, it was a balloon.
	Well, it was a radar target.
	It was a piece of tinfoil.
	Tinfoil, yes.
	So then many years go by and we finally, while the public is suspicious, knowing that it was not a balloon, Thinking it was not a balloon all the time, 1994 arrives, the Air Force announces, well okay folks, it's true, we lied to you originally, and that it was not a balloon, it was what we called a balloon train, which ostensibly was put up to detect Russian nuclear testing, should it have occurred.
	Uh, and so we lied, but here's the real truth.
	It's a different kind of balloon.
	Now, pending the 50th anniversary coming up, uh, in July of Roswell, we are now about to get yet another explanation from the Air Force.
	Do you want to tell everybody what they're going to say?
	Well, uh, whether they'll say this or not, I don't know, but this is the, certainly is the, the rumor and it, uh, It was more than a rumor on KSAT TV here in San Antonio the night before last when the story was breaking, was broken.
	But they haven't published anything yet.
	It could be that this has been leaked to see whether or not it has any chance of being accepted.
	And if that's the case, then we'll never see it.
	But right now, what it appears is this.
	They're going to claim That it was a craft.
	That it was a lifting body that had been designed by two men, the Horton Brothers, who were extraordinary airframe designers from Germany who had been brought over here after the war.
	And that this lifting body contained either a dummy or dummies Or a pilot, I'm not sure what they'll ultimately... I've heard more than one story about that.
	Oh, Whitley, what do they mean when they say a lifting body?
	A body which can... essentially what they're talking about is a very, very good glider, to make it simple.
	Okay.
	That this body would be raised on a balloon train, again, to a high altitude, and Uh, then floated over the Soviet Union, then released where it would presumably do reconnaissance and glide off of Soviet territory before coming to a stop.
	Now, from the scientific standpoint, even if you're not a scientist, the story is laughable.
	I'll tell you why it's laughable.
	Rotational winds of this planet.
	The idea was that the thing had been released from white sands and it crashed.
	And that's what this was all about.
	That there was a craft and the craft that crashed was this thing.
	If it had been released from white sands into the upper atmosphere, which always flows in the same direction from west to east, It's rotationally driven and retarded by the counter rotation of the moon in the opposite direction.
	A fact that was as well known then as it is today.
	It's not been a secret for quite a long time how the upper atmosphere works.
	It would have had to float over the entire United States, over the Atlantic, over Europe, and over the whole of the western, I mean of the eastern
	Soviet Union and into Siberia before it would make any difference
	because any atomic test they would have carried out would take place in Siberia.
	In other words, it would have had to fly farther than a manned balloon has yet gone.
	And in other words, it's utterly absurd.
	It would have been released, at the least, in Europe somewhere.
	And in any case, the thing would have been an absolute sitting duck.
	It never would have made it anywhere.
	That pilot might as well have just shot himself in the head before they even took off, because he was not coming home.
	Now, these dummies were supposedly innocent.
	Semi-human form, just very rough dummies.
	I have no idea.
	There are two stories.
	One story is that there was a pilot in it who was killed.
	The other story is that there was a dummy or dummies in it.
	But in any case, the most interesting thing about this is not whether or not it could be true.
	I think it's not true.
	I think it can't be true.
	They may have debris that they may bring forward to show that What I don't understand about all of this, Whitley, is the following.
	going to be something that they cobbled together out of old material you know
	that i mean it can't it can't be any it can't be real what i don't understand
	about all of this with lee uh...
	is the following uh...
	it's almost as though they are in intentionally
	trying to destroy their own credibility because if they really do this
	they're going to be laughed at around the world possible reason could the air force have for wanting to
	literally destroy its own credibility with yet a third explanation of what
	occurred Well, maybe they're going to try a comedy cover-up tactic, where we go funny now with the cover-ups.
	Maybe they're joining the Governor of Arizona.
	Well, maybe so.
	I can't imagine That what comes out will actually be this story because it's so utterly absurd.
	If it is this story, then there needs to be some hiring and firing done in their propaganda department because it would be difficult to believe that this would wash with the public.
	Although, I mean, you get back to the crop circle story.
	And everybody laughed about Doug and Dave, and then it ended.
	It just disappeared from the face of the earth.
	Maybe it's an attempt to try the same thing again.
	Well, maybe they've learned.
	I mean, after all, as you point out, they have been successful in the past, no matter how ludicrous it may seem, except for the true believers.
	The rest of the American public says, oh, okay.
	The people who won't stop asking questions are not going to be stopped by this.
	Let me put it that way.
	But it might be You'll see it prominently displayed in the New York Times, snickered about on national public radio, laughed about on CNN, etc.
	and so forth, and it will be used as a sort of a psychological method of closing the Roswell story forever.
	In that sense, it might be a very serious effort.
	It might actually work pretty well, and it will do exactly, to the Roswell story, what Doug and Dave did to the crop circle story, which was to take it forever out of the foreground and put it in the background.
	But it just festers in the background.
	I bet you that if you walked up to ten people on the street in this country and asked them what a crop circle was, they would all say something mysterious that occurs in England.
	They would all know what it was.
	And none of them would think that the crop circles were made by Doug and Dave or any such conventional means.
	So it doesn't really work.
	It's just a method of enabling the public media to quit talking about it.
	It's a tool.
	All right, I want to ask you about something else now.
	And then we'll take some calls, too.
	But I want to ask you about this, the Corso book.
	Yes.
	I have not yet read it, but I have been hearing from a million people, you ought to have Corso on, you've got to have Corso on.
	Well, nobody has told me where I can find Corso, or I would have him on.
	Well, you'd have to talk to the publicity director at Pocket Books.
	Yeah, probably so.
	So, I think Mr. Corso may be presently out of the country, I'm not sure.
	Colonel Corso.
	Colonel Corso.
	And his book, From All I Am Told, portrays the visitors.
	As very negative, very scary, and not at all our friends.
	And this reflects on a discussion you and I have had many times out here.
	And I've always been very cautious, and I've always thought that indeed they may not be our friends.
	And you've also been very cautious about this.
	Very much so, and I've been really close to this on a personal basis.
	I wouldn't say that it's at all obvious that it's going to be a sweetness and light deal.
	What I've come into contact with is real visitors.
	Some of them are real tough birds.
	They did not seem to be particularly friendly.
	I cannot imagine them, for example, dancing with anybody or telling a joke.
	It's not going to happen.
	I think that there's a very interesting possibility here, though, because we're going to publish a book in December that Annie and I have written together called The Communion Letters.
	We've written it together with 100 other people.
	Wow.
	We've got a database of 30,000 letters, and we called out 100 letters that are not exceptional
	letters, but they're a cross-section of what we've got.
	And got permission from each of these people to publish the letters, and they're going
	to be published.
	And what they will reflect is, first of all, what is undoubtedly the most complex human
	experience that has ever existed, bar none.
	But also that people may not be having a particularly good time with this, but they are coping with
	it.
	You know, the average person is a surprisingly adept creature.
	People can do this.
	If this comes into an ordinary family, they can handle it.
	In other words, more than the government or institutions give individuals credit for being.
	Vastly more.
	I think that I've always sort of laughably said that the problem is the people at the top are the ones who can't handle this.
	All right.
	Whitley, hold on.
	I've got a couple of things I've got to cover, and we'll do the news to relax a few moments, and we'll be back to you.
	This note, everybody.
	Hi, Art.
	Just thought I'd let you know, if you haven't already heard, Ted Koppel just announced the subject for tomorrow night's Nightline broadcast is going to be The frauds of Minnesota.
	What are they trying to tell us?
	Evidently, yet another subject that you have been covering for months now has been, in quotes, discovered by the mainstream media.
	Synchronicity, indeed.
	Larry from Medford, Oregon.
	Oh, yes, Larry.
	Synchronistic, indeed.
	It is what I call the quickening.
	And it is the subject of my book.
	and when we come back we will talk to what we a little bit about that and much
	more that's going on listings work well someone's
	like featuring a replay of coast to coast and from june nineteenth
	nineteen ninety seven the
	the the
	someone's life on the radio reports Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	Good morning, everybody.
	This is Art Bell, and my guest is Whitley Streber.
	In a moment, I'm going to have some information for you on the web that relates to the Phoenix sightings, recent articles on the Phoenix sightings, and The Benson Cartoon, just in case you have not seen it yet, we have arranged for you to see it with a link on our website, of course, due to the incredibly quick, reactive action of Keith Rowland, my webmaster.
	I am exceptionally disturbed by the Benson Cartoon, originally reported on my program last night, and then breaking as a national news story.
	During the day.
	And I mean, I'm not just slightly disturbed by it.
	I am disgusted by it.
	I am angered by it.
	I just got a fax from Doc down in Phoenix, who will frequently fax me about things.
	And he suggests that I have simply no idea what the First Amendment means.
	He says, Benson's cartoon.
	Disgusting.
	Yes.
	Outrageous, yes.
	The First Amendment does not protect apple pie, baseball, and the flag.
	It protects the oddballs, like Benson!
	You would have objected to the photo of the Vietnamese girl running naked from a napalm attack being, uh, punished, uh, published also.
	You don't have any idea, he says, what the Bill of Rights means.
	Doc, yes I do.
	The only thing, Doc, is that I understand that it's for everybody, not just Benson.
	It's for Art Bell, too.
	You see?
	Benson's a public person.
	Art Bell's a public person.
	Sure, Benson came after me.
	I got angry.
	I thought about going to a lawyer.
	I consulted with them.
	They said, you know, you're a public person.
	And yeah, you can sue.
	This is probably something you can go litigate about if you want to, but we suggest you don't even bother.
	Well, fine.
	But there is one thing, Doc, that you don't understand about the First Amendment, and that is, brother, that it cuts both ways.
	In other words, I have a forum, and I have my First Amendment rights, too, Doc.
	And as far as I'm concerned, what Benson has done is so disgusting, so beyond the pale, that I am calling for my listeners across the country, because he's nationally syndicated, to, um, To call up the Arizona Republic newspaper and begin a dump Benson campaign.
	Or a flush Benson campaign, depending on which phrase you like the best.
	And by the way, the Arizona Republic switchboard telephone number is area code 602-271-8000.
	is area code 602.271.8000.
	That's area code 602.271.8000.
	And the switchboard opens at 7 a.m.
	Pacific Time which Arizona is presently on.
	7 o'clock in the morning you can begin calling and if you have not yet seen the Benson cartoon
	then hold on to your hat because I've got information coming up next.
	Quickly to of all places adjacent to Phoenix, Mesa, Arizona where all the action seems to
	be here is my webmaster Keith Rowland.
	Keith?
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	You have done your usual fine work, and would you please tell everybody, if they come up to my website right now, What you have just put up there for their edification.
	Okay, I'll run down real quick here so we can get on with the program.
	Sure.
	In our latest news and items area, we have a couple items at the top.
	One is listed as Benson Cartoon Links, and another one is more interest on Phoenix UFOs.
	If you click on either one of those two links, it'll take you over to our related web links page.
	This is the page where I like to accumulate all the different links of the various topics that we talk about on the program and things that interest people.
	So once you click on one of those two top items on the home page, you'll go to our links page.
	And what I have there is a few links over to the Arizona Republic newspaper.
	The first one being the cartoon itself, the Benson cartoon.
	cartoon, you click on that, you go over there and you'll get their page and show the cartoon.
	The second link goes to an article that one of the columnists had wrote regarding the
	hubbub about the cartoon. So there's another article there about the cartoon controversy.
	Is that the Associated Press version, do you know, the one that says editorial cartoonist unapologetic amidst storm over bombing image?
	No, this is a new article by an Arizona Republic reporter.
	It's also dated June the 20th, so that makes it today.
	And believe it or not, they have a post your opinion of Benson's cartoon link.
	No kidding.
	So there you go.
	So you've got all of that up on the web right now.
	Okay, then after that, we have a few more links for the Phoenix UFO sightings.
	Also in the Arizona Republic is a new story also dated today, June the 20th.
	Covering all the things that have happened regarding the new coverage of this episode, talking about even Francis Barwood and all the stories that have been running on the networks and so on.
	And they cover a lot of details, and there's a very lengthy article on the web with some links to some other stories that they've done.
	They talk about Governor Frank Symington and what he's done, and they cover, they have some quotes, and a pretty good little story on the website there for people to look at.
	And then we still have another link to the CNN story and some of the original links to some of the websites that have some of the original pictures from a few months back.
	Good deal.
	Listen, one more question.
	Sure.
	Are you confident about your water supply down there?
	Don't drink the water.
	Thank you, Keith.
	Good night.
	Good night.
	All right.
	That's www.artbell.com.
	www.artbell.com.
	And if you want to see the cartoon, I wouldn't call it a cartoon.
	To me, it's just a flat, damned outrage.
	An absolute outrage.
	It's an outrage.
	Let me give you one more time the Arizona Republic switchboard number.
	I checked it out.
	It's area code 602-271-8000.
	Area Code 602-271-8000.
	Maybe there's a nice job for Mr. Benson at a small, obscure, little, bi-monthly newspaper
	in a Midwest town someplace or another.
	Back now to Whitley Streber in San Antonio, Texas.
	Whitley!
	Yes, sir?
	The World Wide Web is indeed a wonderful tool, isn't it?
	Indeed it is.
	And I have this feeling that if we are to be saved, in terms of information flow that is not restricted by nor controlled by the government.
	It is the World Wide Web.
	Yeah, if you can learn to discriminate, it's a great place to go.
	That's it.
	It's full of information, but it's always hard to tell what's for real and what's not.
	That's one of the problems with it, but I think people are getting rapidly more sophisticated about that.
	Brian in Fort Wayne, Indiana writes the following, uh, re-dummies.
	Hi Art, the recent news release of dummies being dropped from weather balloons to test parachute drops is too absurd.
	It can only be disinformation.
	A disinformation campaign to shed light on the initial cover-up.
	And I can't imagine how anybody contemplating the release of such a story could regard it in any other way.
	Whitley, can you?
	No.
	I, as I said before, I thought that it seems hard to believe that they're going to release this.
	And yet, if you read this month's Popular Science, which has a story on Roswell, it certainly suggests that they think that it was some kind of an exotic aircraft connected with something called Project Paperclip.
	Again, an aircraft designed by these two people, Horton Brothers.
	Yes.
	Now, it could be that if that's true, what the Air Force is really trying to cover up with this latest story is the fact that an extraordinarily advanced aircraft did crash at that time that was one of ours.
	The problem is it's been 50 years.
	Why continue to try to cover that up?
	Uh, it doesn't make sense, because surely whatever technology was present in an aircraft then would be common knowledge by now.
	You betcha.
	So, that doesn't really, that story doesn't hold water, and in addition, the Project Paperclip, which I've known about in the past, as I understand it, was not an operational project, but more of a, it was speculative, and uh, The popular science article seems to imply the belief that the ship that they were referring to was actually built.
	I don't think that the materials that they had available in those days would have been able to sustain a structure moving as fast as this aircraft was supposed to be able to move.
	In other words, it would have just fallen apart.
	All right, I want to turn the conversation for just a second, then after the bottom of the hour, we'll go to the phone.
	So, you know, everybody's going nuts trying to get through here, and I understand that.
	Tomorrow night, Ted Koppel is going to be covering the mutation of frogs, something that I've been covering for a very, very long time, along with other ecological problems that we're presently experiencing, that which I put in my book.
	It's called The Quickening, and I believe firmly, Whitley, that we really are undergoing a quickening.
	It would seem so.
	It may be going faster than even I thought when I wrote the book.
	We've got an ice shelf about to break off in the Antarctic.
	We've got single-celled animals in the Antarctic beginning to show DNA structural changes, which is really frightening.
	We've got ozone holes opening up that are astronomically large.
	Changes occurring in the ocean.
	We've got Fisteria, this really weird fish problem, and this bacterium that lies at the bottom of the ocean waiting for pesticides or whatever it is that we throw in the water to activate.
	I could go on and on.
	Our environment is sort of crumbling before us.
	And I thought I'd just get your comments on it.
	I'm sure you've had time to think about it.
	Well, my first comment has to do with the El Nino.
	Thank you.
	That's one I didn't mention.
	Thank you.
	Right now.
	Because this El Nino is unusual.
	First, it's the strongest one that's ever been recorded.
	And second, it's happening at exactly the wrong time of year for such a thing.
	Yes.
	And the problem with it is that at the moment, we believe that the El Ninos have to do only with surface water.
	In other words, the water within 50 feet of the surface.
	If that's not true, and if this energy is dissipated in part beneath the surface, the heat energy I mean, and it causes changes in ocean currents, it could cause very, very extraordinary changes in weather patterns and so forth.
	As it is, it means that Indonesia and Northern Australia are going to experience a very severe drought.
	Uh, at a time of year when it's usually quite wet, especially in Indonesia.
	So it's a symptom that El Nino, like the Larsen Ice Shelf we discussed a few months ago, becoming unstable is a symptom.
	And, you know, people think, well, they always say, well, how can we, what can we do about this?
	The National Weather Service is beginning to issue some really alarming bulletins about this building, El Nino.
	And it was documented, by the way, before they began talking about it, by Stan Dale, who simply looks at temperature differences at the ocean point and saw these hotspots building.
	Incredible hotspots.
	And that was a precursor to the announcement about the El Nino.
	Well, we've had weather down here in Texas that you would not believe in the past few months.
	I know.
	San Antonio has had weather unlike anything I've ever known here.
	I mean, it's really been strange.
	We've even had, for the first time, tornadoes in this area.
	And, of course, north of San Antonio there was a terrible tornado that hit in Gerald, north of Austin.
	Yes.
	but uh... our weather has been uh... shocking it's been really violent and it has to do
	with this or of unstable air coming out across from a from the pacific
	and across mexico i think that
	now we will will get into more of the philosophical i suppose but i i i think
	that it's almost a done deal So...
	My contention in this book is that we are headed toward an event, that all of this socially, economically, in every single endeavor, human endeavor, is headed toward
	some kind of event.
	I'm not a prophet, but you have had contact with others and I wonder if they have ever
	mentioned to you anything about this or whether there has been any sort of communication to
	you about the way things are progressing here.
	Yes, I've had the usual feeling that so many people who have the close encounter experience
	are left with that there is a sense of urgency about the state of the planet that is very
	serious.
	That's been a feature of my experience right along.
	I have inside myself a sense of peace, though, that has come to me after having dealt with
	this for so many years and having lived with these very fundamental questions.
	For so long, and knowing that I can't really answer them, gradually you come to the point where you want to take action, but you find yourself, you can't be overwhelmed.
	I don't feel at all overwhelmed.
	I feel as if, as a species, that we're here and in the end we're going to make this work for ourselves.
	But I think it's probable that we're going to go through some Change.
	Yeah, a lot of change and environmental consequences that are really a result not of environmental indiscretion so much as just the simple fact that there are many more human beings maybe on the planet than it can sustain for long.
	Well, some will talk of God, some will talk of nature.
	I talk of both.
	I think of the planet as almost a living entity, much as Native Americans do.
	And it seems to me that if we keep doing what we're doing, there's going to be simply a natural, underline natural, reaction.
	For every action there generally is some sort of reaction.
	And I think eventually the Earth is going to react to what we are doing.
	Yes.
	And we're being given a lot of warnings.
	A lot of canaries are falling over dead.
	And so far, we're not paying much attention.
	You know, we're just shoveling the canaries into a big pile and burying them.
	But I'll keep making noise for as long as I can.
	Whitley, when we come back, so many subjects are on the table tonight that I want to give the audience an opportunity to ask you about any of them.
	So how about that?
	that will do that when when we come back sometimes
	radio is like this You're listening to Art Bell, somewhere in time, on Premier Radio Networks.
	Tonight an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from June 19, 1997.
	Music playing.
	You're listening to Arc Bell, Somewhere in Time.
	Tonight featuring a replay of Coast to Coast.
	We're about to go to phones here in a moment.
	If you have a question for Whitley Streber, I think he's ready.
	We'll try and answer just about anything that we can.
	There is so much to discuss, so much to talk about.
	Anyway, He's a man who's dealt with these sorts of issues all his adult life, and, uh, so he's the right guy to ask.
	Now we take you back to the night of June 19th, 1997, on Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
	Back now to Whitley Strieber in San Antonio.
	Yes, indeed.
	An area where there's been some rough, rough, rough weather that we have reported on.
	Whitley, just one thing before we go to the phones.
	Your new book, which will contain 100 representative letters.
	Yes.
	When will that be out, and where can people get it?
	Well, let me tell you what I have out now, just so that Everybody knows.
	What's out right now is this story, The Open Doors, I believe I referred to earlier, that gives what is my idea of what the possible, one of the possible reasons for the cover-up may be.
	And it's in a book called Revelations that's out now, a HarperCollins book.
	Also from HarperCollins will come The Communion Letters in December.
	And then next year, St.
	Martin's Press is bringing out Communion 2, which I think is going to surprise some people a great deal.
	We'll find out what that's about when it comes out.
	Alright, so out right now would be Revelations.
	Revelations, The Open Doors, is a story in Revelations.
	It's a book of stories by a number of authors.
	I was able to get this story in there.
	Hi, this is Wayne.
	I'm calling from Phoenix, Arizona.
	Thank you for taking my call.
	Ground zero, Wayne.
	spoke to us about or uh... if they don't happen to have it there their computer
	will work quickly find it and get it on its way uh... alright when we hear we go let's see what's out there
	first-time caller line you're on the air with art bell and what we streamed
	her heart i uh... this is a way and i'm calling from uh...
	in external thank you for taking my call ground zero wayne
	ground zero uh... perspire electing a couple comments minister struber
	question I just ordered your book last night, and I'm looking forward to receiving that.
	Also, I was quite surprised by Governor Symington's little hoax he played today.
	I don't know if you caught it.
	Do you think that's... Let me ask you, since you're in Phoenix, and since you know your governor certainly better than I do, Do you think that when he made the original announcement he intended it to be a hoax?
	Well, any normal person that I know who would make a joke would right after making a joke or after he was kidding would say, I was kidding.
	Just kidding folks, but instead he had to call an emergency press conference hours later?
	I think at first I was disturbed by that in the sense of what took place and what he ended up doing.
	But I thought about it, and then I thought to myself, well, hey, maybe this was just a strategy.
	We know how biased the media is, and by Governor Symington pulling a prank such as this, maybe it prompted the media to take a different look or a different direction.
	Well, you know, it's funny, but I thought the same thing, and I asked Francis Barwood earlier about that.
	I said, was this a particular watershed day Anyway, sir, do you have a question?
	I certainly do.
	government over these uh... and uh... whatever it is he's involved in
	and she said no others have been ongoing and ongoing and ongoing so there would
	be a particular reason to try and divert attention from it on that on this day
	anyway sir uh... do you have a question certainly do uh... mister schreber i
	i had an encounter i think uh... i believe i did
	and um...
	the book that i read The first book that I read that you authored was Communion.
	I was intrigued by it.
	There were a lot of similarities in that book that also occurred with myself.
	I guess the question I had for you is does hypnotic regression work for certain individuals or is it limited?
	Well, first of all, hypnosis, hypnotizability, it varies from person to person and it can be tested.
	There's a test called the eye roll test which a qualified practitioner can use to tell how, whether or not you'll be hypnotizable and how hypnotizable you'll be.
	As to what it does, well, hypnosis is not a call for the truth.
	It focuses the attention, relaxes the person and focuses the attention on the desires of the person doing the hypnosis rather than the individual being hypnotized.
	This is a two-edged sword.
	One, it enables you to concentrate quite wonderfully.
	It's an amazing experience in that sense.
	The bad side of it is that you have a tendency to provide the hypnotist with a narrative that they want to hear.
	In other words, you want to please the hypnotist.
	That happens under hypnosis.
	I work presently with a psychologist I've been working with for about a year who puts me under hypnosis and is completely silent after she puts me under hypnosis.
	She says nothing whatsoever.
	She doesn't ask any questions.
	She just basically sits there and waits.
	We generally set up a plan of it beforehand, and I find that I'm very well able to carry out the whole process without any input from anyone at all.
	I think probably it's a good way of going if you're going to try hypnosis.
	I've had success with it.
	I had success with it with Dr. Donald Klein, and I'm having success with it now.
	When you get into trouble with it, It's when the hypnotist is asking leading questions and you construct a narrative.
	Then you're in trouble because you don't know for sure whether it's your imagination or a real memory from then on.
	So I'd be real careful about that.
	Could you possibly make any recommendations or know of any people in the Phoenix area?
	Well, what I would recommend is that, first of all, if you work with a licensed I don't know.
	I would not work with an unlicensed practitioner for the simple reason that they don't have the same level of responsibility of someone who is maintaining a license and probably not the same level of expertise either.
	I would, in general, look at See to see if you could find someone who is neutral about the UFO issue and the alien issue who has no or is willing to deal with you from the standpoint of having no particular beliefs one way or another.
	If they have beliefs about it, let them keep them to themselves.
	That makes sense to me.
	Good luck, caller.
	Thank you, sir.
	Right.
	That's the kind of person you want to find.
	That really does make sense.
	Oh, I think it's good.
	I think it works.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Whitley Streber.
	Hi.
	Good evening, gentlemen.
	How are you?
	Fine.
	Where are you?
	Cleveland, Ohio.
	Cleveland.
	Oh, Cleveland.
	I love Cleveland.
	It's one of my favorite places.
	I'm really serious.
	Yes, we're getting unusual weather here, that's for sure.
	Listening to the show for the last eight months, it seems like everybody's running around trying to figure out, is it a resident?
	And I can pretty well guarantee you that there is alien forms on this earth.
	Because some people, you know, we're contained in one The country just has so many people and so many places to go, and obviously these people are here who know what's going on, but they're not talking.
	And I know people who have talked, and I guarantee you there are alien beings on this Earth.
	And these people are eyewitnesses.
	In fact, they have guarded a spaceship and the aliens at the Air Force bases.
	There's a lot to do with Sandia Labs in New Mexico, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, and Eglin Air Force Base in Florida.
	In 1972, they were doing experiments on the material that came from the craft.
	I was told that it's a very thin, like a plexiglass type of structure, that was so hard they couldn't break it with anything they used on it.
	They used all kinds of penetrating devices, bombs, hand grenades, they could not You know, penetrate this material from this spaceship.
	May I ask you, who told you all this?
	How you came upon this, what would be very secret information?
	Often people who worked in the secret areas.
	I mean, after a while you just get tired of holding things inside of you and I guess you just start, you know, babbling, you know.
	But these, this is, now they've had this stuff for many years.
	And this is where they told me the basis of all this new plastics and polymers, these long chain polymers.
	The problem is, if you can't offer us any documentation or tell us who they were, you could just be making this story up.
	Well, they're Air Force Security Police.
	Yeah, but you don't offer any particular names, and they haven't personally come forward.
	I have to tell you that... I'm not trying to say that, you know... I don't disagree with you.
	But the only point I'm making is it doesn't really help to do this.
	Right.
	We all can read this kind of stuff all over the Internet.
	And it's probably, it may very well be that you're telling the truth.
	But we can't know.
	Because you don't offer any documentation and you don't offer, you don't name names.
	And so we're left, we're left thinking, well, gee, this is very interesting.
	Yeah, well, I didn't, you know, I'm not trying to prove a case.
	I'm just saying there's... Well, why don't you?
	I mean, you have, if what you're saying is accurate, then you know the names.
	You know the people.
	Well, my brother is one of them, right?
	And his friend.
	And I've been a witness, not to anything with alien, but it had to do with motor vehicles, you know, for NASA.
	But in 1971, these bodies were transferred from Dayton to Eglin Air Force Base.
	I can tell you that.
	But can you prove it to us?
	You know, I would really like to.
	If I could get them to talk to me and give me more details, I'd be happy to.
	All right.
	Do exactly that, then, and have them contact me.
	And let's get it first person.
	That's one approach.
	And any physical evidence they may have, have them hold on to that.
	West of the Rockies, John here with Whitley Strieber.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	How's it going tonight?
	Just fine.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Santa Monica.
	This is James.
	Hi, James.
	How's it going?
	I have two things.
	A comment for you, Art.
	Your rage over the cartoon is understandable and, I guess, justifiable.
	Well, you know, Benson has always been controversial and tasteless, but this one is way beyond that.
	And for Whitley, my feeling and intuitive information I'm getting about this Phoenix thing and the alien thing is that That there are two camps or three or four camps of aliens that are here, in one form or another, and they've infiltrated the government and the media, and they are pulling strings, i.e.
	finger-snapping.
	What do you think, Martin Whitley?
	that that's a really interesting idea because there's something it's it's beginning to look like spin
	control out of control uh... it's it's been a good i think you have
	you know the proper open venom governor it's it's about dancing around and uh... and
	jumping through hoops fault darting in the out of a courtroom to find out
	whether or not you can go to jail
	You have a seemingly hilarious story coming out of the Air Force, one which I suspect is going to have far more impact than we can really imagine.
	Because it's going to be inexplicably adopted as gospel by the media.
	Well, they bought Doug and Dave, so why not?
	That's my point.
	And you also have the oddest thing of all, which is that this Phoenix stuff would crop up all of a sudden, months after it's over.
	Because after all, right now we're not having any UFO sightings, we're just having a media storm that seems to have come up out of nowhere.
	And it is like, it's as if there is somebody, some kind of crazed orchestration taking place in the background with a lot of arguments going on about how to do it, too.
	And that maybe there are different camps, but one thing is certain, whoever's trying to do it is not handling it with any degree of skill at all.
	And an interesting thing on the killings, Art and Whitley, is... Listen, I want to be very careful there.
	These killings, I reported them as they occurred.
	Uh, was obviously or seems to be a murderer, uh, maybe random act of violence, maybe.
	Maybe.
	And the other is being reported as an accident.
	However, um, I'm not trying to suggest there is some great, uh, conspiracy, but, uh, it is worth noting that both of these men were in very specific, sensitive positions.
	And that has to be noted.
	I mean, it has to be noted.
	But, Nate, you didn't start reporting these deaths until today, right?
	That's correct.
	Okay, well, four days ago, I have these really incredible lucid dreams, and I was observing these, I'll call them other entities in my dreams, killing people.
	And I said, why the killing?
	Why are you killing people?
	Stop the killing.
	And then I was transported to someplace else in the dream and wasn't given the answer.
	Because I would sure like to know.
	Yeah.
	And Whitley, that brings up a subject I want to cover with you.
	Well, it's interesting that between my wife and I, we've read over 200,000 letters.
	Wow.
	A lot of letters.
	Wow, that's a lot of letters.
	In 10 years.
	And in those letters, we have one in which there was a death connected with Close encounter.
	And it's not at all obvious that the man was killed by the visitors.
	To the contrary, his death was much more mysterious.
	I was about to say, I'm a lot less worried about the visitors and my own personal safety than I am about the two-legged ones walking around down here.
	What worries me about the close encounter experience is this, that if it's something that we can't control, And that they are as negative as people like Colonel Corso say.
	They're going to transform our society and our lives in ways that are going to make it really unpleasant to live here.
	And that's what I don't want to see, because despite all of the troubles in this world, a lot of people have very satisfactory lives right now, and I want to see that grow, not get less.
	Um, Whitley, do you feel personally safe?
	I never think about it.
	It was obvious to Ann and I, back as we began to realize there was all kinds of government involvement and cover-ups, and people from Washington started wanting to come up to our old cabin and so on and so forth, that there was clearly an element of danger involved, just from a human standpoint.
	Not only, God knows what the visitors are, or what they may do, so I just never think about it anymore.
	I'm here, right now.
	Well, I don't mean so much, uh, do you feel safe from, with respect to the visitors, but with all of this possible skullduggery and manipulation and all the rest of it going on.
	Well, I've been, uh, I remember a lot of persecution, and because I'm still standing, it's always possible that someone will, of course, Decide that I, that I shouldn't be standing here.
	Yeah, I mean, I remember stories about gas cans, cans full of gas near... It was pretty intense when they drove us out of the cabin.
	We were attacked financially by a chemical bank, by their trying to get us to sign papers, agreeing to pay more on a loan than we owed them, and then suing us when we wouldn't do that, and in the meantime, Money was withheld from us, and we had people putting cans of gasoline in the basement of the house.
	The police would not investigate.
	And finally, when the courts fantastically sided with the bank, even though I could show canceled checks to the effect that I had paid the loan on time, I left because I was scared to stay.
	It was too much for me.
	I felt that I was driven out of that house by an intentional Yeah.
	Do you now spend most of your non-tour time in Texas?
	You know, I'm just one guy. I'm not going to fight that. I left.
	Yeah.
	Came down home to Texas where I know all kinds of people and it's not so easy to kick me
	around. If they want to kick me around in the courts down here, they have to work hard
	to do it.
	Do you now spend most of your non-tour time in Texas?
	I spend my time real close to home in San Antonio, surrounded by friends.
	I hear that. All right.
	Well, listen, we're at a choice point, Whitley.
	You can go to sleep, if you wish, or you can spend another hour, if you wish.
	It is your choice.
	Of calling it a night.
	Alright.
	Because it's 4 o'clock in the morning here, and I've got to get up at about 7.
	I know, and I heartily appreciate your being here, and you're now caught up on everything.
	It should be rather interesting, Whitley, to watch how all this develops, huh?
	Well, I'll be watching, if you can believe it, and I'll be interested to see what happens at Roswell on the 4th.
	Indeed.
	And hopefully, if it's going to happen, as we said, it'll be Roswell.
	And not Phoenix.
	Well, whatever unfolds, let's hope it's good and not something awful.
	One thing's for sure, something's gonna happen.
	Uh, Whitley, thank you.
	Thanks a lot.
	Good night.
	That's Whitley Streeper, everybody.
	That's it, folks.
	I am from Phoenix.
	Yup, from everywhere.

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