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June 10, 1997 - Art Bell

03:12:42

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Eugene Mallove - Cold Fusion and Free Energy

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01:05:07

eugene mallove

01:27:48

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert, great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, as the case may be.
		And welcome to another edition of Coast Coast AM, actually from the Hawaiian East Country Southwest, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
		About all points in between, South and South America, north, all the way to the pole.
		This is indeed Coast Coast AM.
		I'm Arthur Bell.
		Great to be here, and we are going to spook ABCs.
		Good morning, America.
		This morning.
		Or this evening, as the time zone may dictate.
		In the morning, it is my understanding, save the change.
		That there is going to be a demonstration, finally, finally, ladies and gentlemen, of an over unity process.
		A process that yields more energy out than goes in.
		That's what over-unity is.
		Some call it free energy.
		Some call it over-unity.
		You get the idea.
		In other words, very little to zero power in and many, many watts out.
		As a matter of fact, the working prototype of water heater by Clean Energy Technologies Inc.
		is going to be profiled sometime between 7 and 9 a.m. tomorrow morning, more likely close to 7 in your respective time zones.
		And I have been screeching about this for I don't know how long.
		And this morning, you're going to find out all about it before ABC's Good Morning America tells the nation about it.
		Because I have Dr. Eugene Malov, who is editor-in-chief of Cold Fusion Technology magazine, with me.
		In a moment, I will tell you more about Dr. Malov, and we'll find out what's really going on.
		So if you've been curious about this whole free energy field, we've got somebody qualified to speak about it coming up in a moment.
		All right.
		A couple of announcements, and then away we go.
		One, I received this from a man at sea, Gus Darnell at sea off the Washington coast.
		Art, regarding the weather, check this out.
		Super Typhoon Nestor, N-E-S-T-O-R, 18.4 north, 147.6 East.
		Maximum winds right now, 201 miles per hour.
		I've been a seagoing radio op for 27 years.
		Never heard of it.
		Captain Bennett Sea, over 20.
		Never heard of it.
		That is from John.
		Actually, I guess sent by John.
		So thank you, John.
		That is a monster typhoon, and there's beginning to be some action in the Atlantic as well.
		I think clearly, again, you don't have to be a candidate for employment at NASA to understand our weather is undergoing a rather radical change, quickening, if you will.
		And we'll get to that later on.
		I do want to tell you that the days of my signing or autographing first edition copies of The Quickening, my book about this process and so much more, are coming now to an end.
		And as long as you order now, you will get an autographed copy of my book.
		But I'm giving you the little rattlesnake early warning here that soon it will not be available in that form, autographed.
		So if that is of concern or you want an autographed copy, you need to order now.
		It's 1-800-864-7991.
		That's 1-800-864-7991, and that number is available now.
		With regard to the cruises, one to Alaska, one to Egypt and the pyramids, and so much more, if you wish to check with to see if there are any openings, and there may not be at the moment.
		They may be booked.
		I'm not exactly sure, but there have been from time to time one or two openings.
		You can call the cruise company.
		You know what?
		As usual, oh, I've got good.
		Thank goodness, here it is.
		You can call in the morning at 8 o'clock Pacific Time, 1-800-633-2732, or 1-800-848-7120.
		Let me give that last one again.
		It's probably the one you ought to call at 8 o'clock.
		Alaska coming in August, and Egypt coming in October, 1-800-848-7120.
		All right, now, since 1995, Dr. Malov has been the editor-in-chief and publisher of the bimonthly infinite energy magazine Cold Fusion and New Energy Technology based in Concord, New Hampshire, with a research lab and publishing facility in Bow, New Hampshire.
		He has, now listen carefully, a Master of Science degree, a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
		And he has a science doctorate in environmental health sciences.
		That would be air pollution control engineering from Harvard.
		Wow.
		With broad experience in high technology engineering at companies including Hughes Research Labs, TASC, the Analytical Science Corporation, and MIT Lincoln Laboratory.
		He has also had extensive hands-on experience in lab settings, most recently in cold fusion.
	In 1991, he worked as a consultant to U.S. corporations doing and planning R ⁇ D in cold fusion.
	He is the author of three science books for the general public, including the Pulitzer-nominated book on cold fusion entitled Fire from Ice, Searching for the Truth.
	Behind the Cold Fusion Fuhrer, and oh, a Fuhrer it has been, eh?
	He's taught science journalism at MIT and at Boston University.
	He was chief science writer at the MIT News Office when Cold Fusion erupted.
	Good word.
	Prior to that, he was a top science writer and broadcaster with The Voice of America in Washington, D.C. Also wrote science and technology articles for magazines and newspapers, including MIT, Technology Review, and The Washington Post.
	That's a lot of qualification.
	Doctor, welcome to the program.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Delighted to be on, Art.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know about 20 after 2 in the morning back there.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, indeed.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Dark in Concord, New Hampshire.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But this is a very, very timely interview in that finally tomorrow morning, a national network is going to show the nation something that has over unity gain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that correct?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		They will profile, as you said, the technology of a company that is one of the companies working in coal fusion, clean energy technologies.
		They have a prototype water heating unit and can't quite buy it at Kmart yet, but there will be a national television.
		By the way, they have, to be absolutely clear about this and accurate, back in February 7, 1996, on both Good Morning America and Nightline, they also profiled the same company with their earlier technology.
		They also did Pons and Fleischman.
		But here we have a more advanced stage of development that, as long as schedules go according to plan, should appear on Good Morning America this June 11th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is not the Patterson technology, is it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is, actually.
		But to be accurate, I don't know the latest configuration of their water heating unit.
		The Patterson configuration, to which you refer, is a patented process.
		It must be called cold fusion, even though that is not referred to in the patent.
		That part of the patent office was rather generous to allow that patent through because all the other patents, including the Pons and Fleischmann patent, are being outrageously blocked by rather arrogant officials who don't believe in data at the patent office.
		Patterson has these coated beads with metal that much like the Pons and Fleischmann patents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let me read you what I've got here from the media alert release.
		It says the working prototype water heater by Clean Energy Technologies Inc.
		will be profiled.
		According to company sources, the device which does not use Dr. Patterson's patented coated bead technology, but instead a new method developed by the company, has been producing continuously several hundred watts excess energy since last February.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		That is accurate, according to my conversations with the head of Clean Energy Technologies, or CT, CETI, as it's said.
		They've got a twist to this.
		I'm not sure exactly what it is, but my understanding is it has something to do with a, instead of just a static cell, it is something where water flows through and gets heat from this unusual coal fusion process, whatever the coal fusion process may be.
		But this process, this newer technology that they are bringing out, flows through piping and maintains a very extraordinary heating of water.
		To the extent that it was stated as hundreds of watts, there's no particular reason in my mind to think that it couldn't be scaled to almost any level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, what I was trying to be clear on here is Dr. Patterson's technology, the patented coded bead technology, apparently is not used.
		So what is it then?
		A sort of a modification of Dr. Patterson's patent, or does this still actually qualify under his patent?
		I'm confused.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		My working assumption, not having seen the device myself, we'll wait to see it on ABC, is that it uses particulates of some kind, that is, of small particles, could be a variant of that bead, but nonetheless not in a static mode.
		In other words, not held together in a tight, small place, like a few cubic centimeters, such as the Patterson cell normally has, but perhaps these beads or some other particulate flowing through in an unusual manner in piping and still producing this continuous supply of heat.
		That is my understanding, my latest understanding.
		But you know, I must say, Patterson cell is by no means the only cold fusion cell that is working on this planet today.
		I mean, there are numerous cold fusion, in quote, processes which are producing heat regularly, in some instances not so regularly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's back up a little bit, and let me ask you, first of all, what is cold fusion?
		Assume that you're talking to somebody who doesn't has heard the phrase cold fusion but has no idea what the hell it is.
		What is it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's go back to the first episode.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pons Fleischman.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		everyone knows that Pons, not everybody, but most people recall, if they're old enough, that on March 23rd, 1989, there was an amazing announcement coming out of the state of Utah in Salt Lake City.
		Drs.
		Pons and Fleischman, very respected chemists at the time, and still in our view, of course, made an announcement, which was widely carried on the news media, that they were getting more heat energy out of a cell of water, it was called heavy water at the time, it's part of all water, than the electricity put in.
		They were using heavy water, which, as I say, is part of all water.
		One out of every 6,500 atoms of ordinary hydrogen in water is a heavy form.
		And so that's called heavy water when you get it all together.
		It's real cheap, and it's, of course, very, very abundant on the planet.
		And it's not radioactive.
		They said, look, we have a little cell with heavy water and a salt that allows electricity to go through.
		And there's a palladium, a metal electrode, and there's another electrode called a platinum electrode.
		We pass the current through.
		We get heat out.
		We look at this heat that's coming out.
		We measured very carefully.
		And we get so much energy coming out of this cell that it cannot possibly be an ordinary chemical reaction.
		It must be nuclear, they said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How is one able to measure the fact you measure units of heat energy versus the amount of current that you're passing through the device?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Watts of electrical power in as a power measurement versus, let's say, watts or BTUs or any heat unit you want coming out.
		Now, they were getting elevations in that over unity.
		In other words, more out in terms of heat units than electric units going in.
		And that is not an ordinary chemical reaction.
		Lighting a match from a matchbook will, in effect, do that too, you realize.
		You just put a little bit of energy in and you trigger a reaction that produces a lot more energy out.
		Except in a chemical reaction, like a match or a candle or a log, it's self-limited.
		It just produces a certain amount of energy and then it goes out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It then goes out, right?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the case of a cold fusion cell, it doesn't go out.
		It goes for weeks or months, and in some cases, for the better part of a year, okay, without stopping.
		And the question was, even to Pons and Fleischmann then, what is causing this heat?
		Now, of course, the establishment didn't even accept the fact, nor should they have on day one, that there was more heat coming out by far than electricity going in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I'm old enough to remember the announcement.
		And what I remember following it was a whole group of institutions across the country trying to replicate, which is science, the experiment they did with very mixed results.
		Some institutions came back and said, yes, we've done it.
		Others have said, it's failed.
		It doesn't work.
		And there was a great controversy that ensued.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		That is exactly what happened.
		There was a tremendous controversy because the claim that nuclear reactions, potentially nuclear reactions, occurring on a tabletop was a very shocking claim to be making.
		If they had not been, by the way, the world-class chemists that they were, Dr. Fleischmann is with the fellow of the Royal Society, Stanley Pons was head of the University of Utah chemistry department, they wouldn't have even been listened to.
		I mean, it would be the usual crank business, supported by evidence, and that would be the end of it.
		Now, fortunately, they triggered a worldwide frenzy of activity indeed to replicate them.
		In fact, many did.
unidentified		Many people rather quickly did replicate their claims.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Doctor, hold it right there, and we'll come back and have more time to get into this in great detail.
		So if you really want to understand what's going on with Cold Fusion, keep it right where it is.
		I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time comers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		It is a completely non-trivial topic.
		We are talking about our future.
		If you look at the fall of air hanging over our city right now, no matter whether you're right, left, or whatever you are politically, you cannot be happy.
		That fall of air is coming from the use, or some might suggest misuse, of fossil fuels.
		If we don't do something about it, it's going to do something about us.
		And so we're talking about energy, an alternative form of energy, the real thing.
		If you want to really know what's going on, you won't budge from where you are right now.
		Back to Dr. Eugene Malov in a moment.
		Now, back to Eugene Malov.
		And I hope am I getting your name correct?
		Is it Malov?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's a good, that's close.
		Most Malov.
		You're right on target, Dark.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Good.
		Now, Pons and Flashman.
		Here we had the demonstration and the great controversy, some universities able to replicate, other universities saying They were unable to replicate.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where do we go from there?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, this was the spring of 1989.
		It seems like a century ago to us in the Cold Fusion War.
		But there it was.
		March 23rd, 1989 was the beginning of the worldwide race to discover whether or not Punz and Fleischmann were correct or not.
		They could have been mistaken because there was a lot of backroom infighting and complex political maneuvering that led to that press conference.
		They themselves did not want the press conference, by the way.
		They wanted to wait another 18 months.
		But due to controversies with another group in the state of Utah, the announcement occurred, for better or worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it a race?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was a race for many people to get into it and find out who could be first to either find out that they were having a correct observation in science or whether they had made a terrible mistake and should be regarded as somehow fools.
		In any event, the establishments rather quickly, in weeks, came to its own private conclusion.
		They maintained a public veneer of respect for Pons and Fleischmann for a while, a little grace period.
		They said, well, look, let's check this out.
		And then major institutions such as MIT and Caltech and Harwell Laboratory in England were coming to the conclusion rapidly that Pons and Fleischman had made a terrible mistake.
		And they wanted to prove to the world that Pons and Fleischman should be gotten rid of.
		And of course, there was this media flurry, a very large media flurry.
		The Coal Fusion story made the cover of Time, Newsweek, and Business Week on May 8, 1989.
		Now, the interesting thing is this.
		Many groups did get excess energy, some with difficulty.
		And even without guidance, people knowing something about electrochemical systems were able to see the effect.
		It was weak at that time.
		It wasn't a major effect.
		It wasn't as extraordinary as it is today with some of the newer coal fusion systems, but it was there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, may I ask, were Hans and Fleshman at that time giving assistance to those universities trying to replicate the experiment?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		They were giving some assistance.
		The lawyers that were responsible for guiding the way the announcement came out at the University of Utah did to some extent tie their hands.
		A lot of this was tied up in patent issues and so forth.
		The university wanted to take some advantage of this, as it well should have.
		Excuse me.
		If, as Fleischman today would say, they did not take care to protect the rights of the University of Utah, they would subsequently have been considered a derelict in duty.
		But they did, in fact, give some assistance, and in point of fact, even in those cases where not much assistance was given, the effect was replicated.
		Now, the high-profile places, such as MIT, Caltech, Harwell Laboratories, and a number of other places that did rather quick work, claimed not to have gotten the effect.
		Now, today, this is of only historic importance because those high-profile places, their results, were very much used by the U.S. Department of Energy panel that was set up to investigate this as a certification that this was a terrible mistake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, in your best estimation, why did these high-profile universities, why were they unable to replicate the experiment?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Let's take the three prominent examples that were used then by the Department of Energy and still used in the mythology against cold fusion as to what was going on.
		Now, in the case of Caltech, they published, the Nate Lewis team published in Nature magazine extensive reports on their heat measuring experiment.
		It turns out that they published interesting data, very interesting data, except they analyzed it improperly.
		You know, in fact, if you look at it, high school algebra and common sense, when you get down to the nitty-gritty of the complexities, indicate that it's fundamentally improperly analyzed.
		At worst, it's an ambiguous result.
		At best, there was some evidence of excess heat.
		Certainly, under no circumstances, is that work to be regarded as a definitive negative.
		Well, again, this is all historical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, and I want to hear the history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you characterize that report as a benign mistake or otherwise?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I don't consider it a benign mistake.
		Not when subsequently to the publication of the Caltech result, several excellent electrochemists and chemists and engineers sent scientific correspondence to Nature Magazine asking the ordinary question, look, we see some fundamental simple errors in algebra and other things in this report.
		We want to publish our letter, letters, that show the error that they have so that the record can be corrected.
		And Nature Magazine, which was on the warpath against cold fusion at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, there was a brouhaha.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		There was kind of a pack mentality, as so often occurs, when a heretical new discovery is launched upon the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I'll tell you, I have never in my life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Scientists are some of the worst feuding bunch of professionals I've ever seen in my whole life.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		They are.
		The problem with scientists, I must say, I consider myself more of an engineer, but a true scientist in spirit, certainly.
		They have a card that says, I am objective.
		But this is not true at all.
		We know that scientists act according to their emotions, according to their funding sources, according to their worldview of how the universe works.
		That's what was happening.
		And of course, at MIT, where I was, and I had a better insight there, even more outrageous things happened.
		Things that I did not even realize were happening until more than a year went by after the announcement.
		I was the chief Science writer at the news office at MIT, responsible for reporting research from MIT, reporting the pro and cons that were going on about coal fusion at MIT.
		Now, their work was reported as negative.
		And in fact, it is not negative.
		To my great dismay, later in my investigation of what was happening, and I was skeptical of coal fusion myself in the beginning.
		Certainly a year after I was beginning to believe that it was almost certainly true.
		Two years after the announcement, I said the evidence was overwhelming, and now it's 100% certain.
		But what I saw in the MIT data was outright fudging.
		Now, this data was supposedly a fair experiment whereby a heavy water cell, that is a Pons-Fleischmann type cell, was compared to one that had ordinary water in it.
		And by the way, this is with their palladium electrode, so there's no confusion.
		The same thing that Pons and Fleischmann were doing.
		They ran 80 hours of results, and they had already made various planted news stories in the media against Pons and Fleischmann, and they used the word fraud.
		That began to enter the picture from some of the MIT researchers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The allegation you're making right now is every bit as serious.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It's very serious.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Because in the summer of 1989, after they had already pretty much gotten rid of Pons and Fleischmann in an outrageous flurry against Pons and Fleischmann.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I remember.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Nature went against them.
		Nature magazine, Science went against them.
		The New York Times went against them.
		The Department of Energy, of course, was completely in attack mode at that point.
		And it was almost irretrievable at that point.
		But MIT hadn't even analyzed its data.
		But lo and behold, I have documents that show on July 10th, 1989, as they were preparing the data for publication on the heat measuring experiment, lo and behold, the Pons and Fleischmann type part of the experiment that MIT was doing showed a positive result.
		It showed excess heat.
		The ordinary water control experiment showed no excess heat.
		But three days later, this draft report was significantly modified, and voila, the heat had disappeared.
		It was suppressed.
		It was fudged.
		Subsequent to that, an excellent MIT graduate, Dr. Mitchell Swartz, now of Jet Energy Technology, another coal fusion company in the Massachusetts area, examined it in greater detail and found that the shifting and the fudging was even more egregious than I thought.
		Basically, they had suppressed evidence.
		Now, if they had, this did not prove coal fusion.
		This did not prove it.
		You could not prove coal fusion by one experiment.
		But if you had the results that they had, and they absolutely had these results, in the summer of 1989, of course, they had collected it in the spring of 1989, you would have been duty-bound to the world to show this evidence and say, look, there it is.
		Bare minimum, they would have had to do the experiment over again to either get rid of that, to say, well, it was a little mistake on our part, or that there really was something there.
		But instead, defending their position as a $30 million a year recipient of funds from the federal government to do hot fusion, that is to mimic the stars with thermonuclear reactions inside a high magnetic field.
		They wanted to preserve the status quo, and they did just that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		oh my God, you're telling me that to preserve...
		To preserve their funding for a continuation into a look at hot fusion, which is a very expensive area.
		Expensive hard process.
		They looked at this simple process, and your word fudged the results to murder cold fusion in its cradle.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and it's even worse than that, actually, because prior to that, prior to the disaster of fudging data in the summer of 89, and by the way, publishing it in a journal that was edited by a man who was working under one of the Hot Fusion Laboratory people,
		that is, under the director of the Hot Fusion Laboratory at MIT, talk about peer review, having sort of pressure put on.
		There would be no question that this data was going to be published and certified as some sort of peer-reviewed piece of work.
		You know, it was just incredible.
		But what they did earlier, in the spring of 89, was to tell one of the major newspapers in Boston that they had found evidence of fraudulent activity on the part of Pons and Fleischman.
		And this is what happened.
		I well remember the day I was called at midnight by the director of the Plasma Fusion Center, the Hot Fusion Lab at MIT.
		And he said, look, CBS News is telling me that the Boston Herald is going to have this story that says, I said that Pons and Fleischman were possibly guilty of fraud and schlock science, scientific schlock.
		And of course, at the time, being green and not knowing what was really going on, I respected this professor.
		I thought that he was probably correct, and the Boston Herald was misinterpreting what he had said.
		He wanted me to issue a retraction over the AP, UPI, and so forth, which I did, of course, not knowing any better at the time.
		I assumed he was correct and was not deceiving me.
		It turned out that he was not correct.
		It turns out that the very words he used against Pons and Fleischmann to plant a story against them and set the F word in motion, the fraud word, became very popular then.
		Thank you.
		You know, this report of his behavior was wrong, and he almost got a reporter fired.
		If that reporter had not had an audio tape of his interview with the director of the Plasma Fusion Center at MIT, that reporter would have been fired on the spot.
		That was the opening shot, I would say, of the war against Pons and Fleischmann.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so that war, you think, began not because of some deep, dark oil company conspiracy.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Not at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But rather a war over funding for alternative energy, hot fusion versus cold fusion.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		The hot fusion program got then from the federal government over $350 million.
		This is magnetic hot fusion.
		Not to say there isn't other hot fusion, which is the laser inertial hot fusion, which now they want more and more billions of dollars for that.
		But that's a weapons-related project.
		It can't honestly be sold as energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it'll probably get the money.
unidentified		It will.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But back then, the hot fusion people at MIT in Princeton and elsewhere were desperately afraid that the federal government was going to shift just a little bit of that money, maybe $25 million was being talked about in Congress, to investigate coal fusion.
		And they didn't want that to happen.
		They were terrified that their system, which they've been working on for decades, would collapse.
		You have to understand, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, we're talking about scientists who are supposed to be dedicated to the truth and finding out what's real and what's not, what's possible, what's not, what can be replicated and what cannot.
		And you use the word fudge.
		There's lots of other words I could think of that would be more appropriate.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I would characterize it, and I will characterize it, as utter fraud.
		And in fact, the fraud magnifies itself as every year goes by for the following reason.
		In the beginning, they thought, well, we can get away with this.
		Or a lower echelon person perhaps thought, look, my boss doesn't want to see these results looking positive, so I'll make them look the way we all know they are, namely there can't possibly be anything here, so let's just wash it away.
		You have to understand, these people did not believe they had a positive result.
		They believed that they just had a result that looked sort of positive, but it didn't matter anyway, so why not fudge?
		That's what they thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not fudge?
		Why not fudge it, Doctor?
		I mean, you heard me at the bottom of the hour.
		We've got palls of dirty air hanging above our cities.
		We're burning fossil fuels that have a limit.
		It's not an infinite resource.
		It's a finite resource.
		Exactly.
		We're coming to crunch time pretty soon.
		The environment is beginning to revolt.
		The weather is beginning to worsen.
		I have a distinct feeling it's because of what we're doing.
		And so what you're saying is very non-trivial.
		You're saying these people, for the sake of grant money, squashed something that could have done something about all of this.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And it was worse than that.
		You know, the federal panel that was set up under Dr. John Huzenga, Professor Hazenga from the University of Rochester, that panel was set forth because there was a big furor about coal fusion.
		And the president, Bush at the time, wanted to know whether it was real or not.
		So he told his energy secretary, Admiral Watkins, let's have a panel.
		And they got a panel of so-called experts, 22 people, one of whom, by the way, was from MIT.
		His name was Dr. Mark Wrighton, no longer at MIT, but he became the provost eventually.
		He was then the head of the chemistry department.
		Other negative people, people who are on record now as having known in advance that the whole business was nonsense.
		So this was the so-called jury they came up with.
		Let me tell you about the jury.
		Heizenga told the people who asked him to be the chairman of the panel, the co-chairman of the panel, don't even have a panel.
		This subject is such absurdity, it's so nonsensical, that it's going to go away in several weeks.
		Well, it didn't go away in several weeks.
		So he did his patriotic, quote, work of becoming a member of the panel and acting according to what they probably expected he would do, namely whitewash it and throw the whole thing in the trash can.
		The other guy was named Dr. William Happer from Princeton University.
		He was then the senior research man at the Department of Energy.
		He said, just by looking at Pons and Fleischmann on television, you could tell they were incompetent boobs.
		That's on the record.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
unidentified		And they use these people as judges?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Doctor, relax for a few moments.
		We've got quite a bit to do, and we'll get back to this in a big way.
		You know, if what you're hearing is true, it's about enough to reduce a strong person to tears.
		Is that what our country is all about these days?
		I hope not, and I am afraid so.
		From the high desert, this is CBC.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning from the high desert.
		I'm Art Bell, and I do have a guest.
		He is Dr. Eugene Meloff.
		And we will, um, we'll kind of update you on where we're going.
		It involves cold fusion and some allegations that are extremely damning regarding the history of cold fusion and some of the biggest institutions in our country.
		Ones, by the way, that Dr. Meloff has been part of.
		So this is serious stuff.
		Later on this morning on ABC's Good Morning America, so we're scooping them on this a little bit, there's going to be a demonstration of an over-unity device, a water heater, using cold fusion.
		So we're sort of going back over the history of cold fusion with Dr. Melo, and we will do that, continue doing that, and update you, and tell you a little bit about the good doctor in a moment.
		However, before we do that, there's something that I want to clear up.
		Or at least I hope it clears it up.
		There's nothing like tape, you know, recordings, which we do since we're a radio program, to clear things up and put them in the proper perspective.
		You're all familiar, I presume, with Joyce Riley.
		Joyce Riley is a nurse who's been a champion of the rights of Gulf War vets who are still coming back sick, their families, their friends, the American public generally in danger from whatever in the hell it was released during the Gulf War,
		whether it was our side, their side, whatever it is, there seems to be little argument anymore, or maybe there is, like cold fusion, about whether this Gulf War syndrome is real or not.
		Joyce Riley has documented a very great deal of information suggesting that it's very, very real.
		Well, I had her on the program, I don't know, I think it was, what, about last week.
		And she did a wonderful job.
		However, during the course of the interview, there was a reference to Michael Reagan.
unidentified		And what about the interview?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reference was that the Reagan show had contacted her, that she had actually met Mike Reagan at some sort of National Association of Talk Show Host Convention or something.
		And she had talked to him and given him information on the Gulf War Syndrome.
		And he said, please supply me with documentation, and we're going to do a show.
		And this is my recollection of it, and we'll get the exact words in a moment.
		Well, she supplied the documentation to Mike Reagan, sent it to him, and she then spoke with one of his producers who said, yes, we want to get you on the air.
		This is my recollection of the conversation, or the way it went.
		And he said, oh, just one more thing.
		How far back does this go?
		The cover-up, meaning the cover-up.
		And Joy said, back to 1982.
		At which point she was told, she says, by the producer of that program, well, then we can't have you on.
		Obviously, it went back to the Reagan administration.
		Well, I found that extremely distressing and shocking.
		And I don't attack other talk show hosts.
		If the facts attack them, that is their problem, not mine.
		I have no axe to grind whatsoever against Michael Reagan.
		We do very different kinds of programs.
		So earlier today, I got a call and I said, you know, well, I didn't say, it was said to me that, you know, all week long, Michael Reagan has been trashing you.
		I said, really?
		No kidding.
		And so I thought then it would be rather important for the audience, particularly at this earlier hour, to know exactly what was said on the program that apparently has brought this trashing of me by Michael Reagan.
		So what I'm going to do right now is have the network replay that particular segment, and you can hear it for yourself.
		So, network, roll the tape, please, now.
		I want her now to tell you exactly what occurred between her and Michael Reagan.
		Michael Reagan contacted you, Joyce.
unidentified		I was with him at the National Association of Radio Talk Show hosts convention in Houston.
		I was there, present there.
		I handed him a news release that said biological weapons used in the Persian Gulf.
		The disease is communicable.
		I handed that to him when we were having our picture taken, and I simply said, our troops are not just sick, they're dying, Michael, and I need to get this word out.
		I need America to know about this.
		And he said, that's horrendous.
		You mean it's a communicable disease?
		And I said, yes.
		You mean these men are really sick?
		This is really that bad?
		I said, yes, it is.
		And he said, well, I want to have this on my show.
		I said, certainly, no problem.
		He said, will you be on my show?
		And I said, yes.
		So his producer called me the next day or two days later and asked me to fax the hard copies of the documents supporting what I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, Michael Reagan wanted proof what you were saying really was true before he was going to put you on the air.
unidentified		That's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you faxed documents?
unidentified		That's correct.
		I faxed about 30 pages to him, to which they were very comfortable with the information.
		And his producer called me back to schedule a time and asked me, I just have one question for you.
		How far back does this trading with Saddam Hussein go in the sharing of biological weapons?
		And I said, 1982.
		And she said, well, I guess you know that we can't have you on the show since it goes into the Reagan administration.
		And I was shocked, and I said, but the issue is so much more important than who was in power at the time.
		The issue is we've got sick Gulf War veterans.
		Well, subsequent to that time, of course, I have not been invited on the show.
		However, he did recently have on a man named Michael Fumento.
		Michael Fimento has written an article for Reason magazine in the American Spectator called Gulf Lore Syndrome, saying that the disease is not real, this is all hysteria, and that this is a big joke by the media played on the Gulf War veterans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh my gosh.
unidentified		That these men are not sick, and if they would just get a life and a psychiatrist, they would understand that they have a mental problem, not an illness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Michael Reagan had that person on?
unidentified		Yes, he did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Michael Reagan's producer told you they would not have you on the moment they discovered it went back to the Reagan administration days?
unidentified		Absolutely correct.
		That's correct.
		Now, the interesting thing is, and I quote a book called The Killing Winds, since the Reagan administration took office in 1980, budgets for both biological and chemical weapons skyrocketed.
		Now, understand they were illegal at that time in 1969, so that in 1980, we shouldn't have been doing this.
		Our budget in 1969 for biological and chemical weapons was $19.4 million.
		When Reagan was in power in 1987, our defense warfare budget was $71.2 million.
		That was for a so-called defensive program.
		So I think the issue is that we did the majority of our build-up and trading with all of these unstable third world countries during that time.
		And I think that's the issue.
		You know, my statement to Mr. Reagan is, I respect you.
		I respect your program.
		I have no problem with him personally other than it's about time that we get past the issue of who did what to whom and treat these Gulf War veterans.
		They're dying, they're sick, they're having deformed children, and all the while being told they have a mental problem.
		We've got to forget everything else and realize this is a national military genocide.
		And I don't know how much more plainly to say it.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		I hope that the tale of the tape just proved to you all that I did not, nor do I ever, trash Michael Reagan.
		If this incident is as related, the incident trashed Michael Reagan, as far as I'm concerned.
		The incident itself, I don't go out of my way to trash anybody.
		I'm too busy.
		I've got too much to do.
		As a matter of fact, we've got to get back to it right now.
		Now, the latest was Joyce Riley called and said she's been invited now, suddenly, onto the Michael Reagan show later today, probably in the second hour, I'm not sure, but on the Michael Reagan show, you will hear Joyce Riley later today for a generous, I am told, 15 minutes.
		I don't know what the nature of the interview is going to be.
		I have no idea.
		But prior to it, I really thought the American people had a right to know what actually was said.
		And what you heard, just heard, just now, is what actually was said.
		That is an unedited version of the actual occurrence on this program.
		So there you are.
		For whatever it's worth, I did not trash Michael Reagan.
		If he wishes to be trashing me, go right ahead, Michael.
		But I certainly did not trash you.
		If anything, my friend, you trashed yourself.
		Enough said.
		We have business to do here, and we're going to get back to it in a moment.
		All right.
		What we're in the middle of right now is very pro.
		As you all know, and I've said it a number of times now, look at any of our major cities, you will see a pall of dirty air hanging over them.
		This is not the only effect of burning fossil fuels, which are, of course, a finite item.
		We're going to run out of them.
		We need energy.
		Dr. Meloff has made some incredible allegations regarding the early work of Pons and Flossman and some of the institutions that tried peer reviewing that work.
		He has said quite plainly that these institutions, and I'm quoting, fudged the results in order to squash cold fusion, in order to get, and I hope I'm getting this right, in order to maintain the level of grant money that was being given to the government for hot fusion.
		This is completely unacceptable.
		So that you know who you're hearing, let me again tell you, Dr. Maloff has been editor-in-chief and publisher of the bi-monthly Infinite Energy Magazine, Cold Fusion and New Energy Technology based in Concord, New Hampshire, with a research lab and publishing facilities in Bowen, New Hampshire.
		He has a Master of Science degree, a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical and astronautical, astronautical, that's correct, engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, and a science doctorate in environmental health sciences, air pollution control engineering from Harvard University.
		With broad experience in high technology engineering at companies including Hughes Research Labs, Hughes Research Labs, TASC, the Analytic Science Corporation, and MIT Lincoln Laboratory, he's also had extensive hands-on experience in laboratory settings, more recently in Cold Fusion.
		Since 91, he has worked as a consultant to U.S. corporations doing and planning R ⁇ D in cold fusion.
		He is the author of three science books for the general public, including the Pulitzer-nominated book on Cold Fusion, Fire from Ice, Searching for the Truth Beyond the Cold Fusion Fuhrer.
		He has taught science journalism at MIT and Boston University.
		He was chief science writer At the MIT News office when cold fusion erupted.
		Prior to that, he was a top science writer and broadcaster with The Voice of America in Washington, D.C., and also wrote science and technology articles for magazines and newspapers, including MIT Technology Review and The Washington Post.
		And I apologize, Doctor, for stealing the time away from you.
		I had to get that on the air.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's quite a right.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Actually, looking at another controversy puts human behavior again in perspective.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It does.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of similarities between.
		I'm not going to get into the details, of course, about that controversy that you just aired, but if the facts are as presented, as I presume they are, it shows how sometimes, very often actually, human beings do not act in the most ethical manner when embarrassing issues or, let's say, conflicts of interest occur.
		In the case of Cold Fusion, let me spell out what the conflicts of interest were back in 1989.
		And I want to also tell your listeners that the activities of MIT, Caltech, and other people who claimed negative results, high-profile places that claimed negative results back then, they are of historical importance only.
		They do not reflect on whether or not there is a reality to coal fusion today.
		Because the experiments that are now published over and over again, the work in Japan, the work in China, Italy, France, Russia, et cetera, provides overwhelming proof that we are dealing with a new scientific and commercial, emerging commercial reality.
		It set the course in a very negative way back in the spring of 1989.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But later on this morning on Good Morning America, there will be a demonstration of a, is it proper to say cold fusion?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I would say that, yes.
		The word cold fusion, we have to say this.
		It's only used because that's the name that originated back then, that there might be a nuclear type reaction akin to, let's say, the hot fusion reaction, which occurs in stars.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This will be a water heater, a practical...
		Some sort of practical device that actually demonstrates the process works.
		So they're going to bring a water heater out that has been operating now for how long?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Months.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Months.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Months, since February.
		You have to understand, by the way, this is a rather significant event in that it represents one company of many coal fusion companies now, not dozens or hundreds, but a handful of companies within the United States that are perfecting this technology and have reached levels of hundreds to even in some cases thousands of watts experimentally,
		not always with consistency, but here's an instance which apparently, I'm saying apparently, since I have not personally tested this device, I look forward to doing it, has hundreds of watts capability, definitely verging on the kind of technology that for many years now, since we knew coal fusion was real, we predicted would occur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is it economically viable?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely is going to be economically viable.
		This energy source is immensely powerful.
		First of all, the fuel cost is essentially zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Zero?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Zero.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And what do I mean by zero?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, what do you mean?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		What I mean is this.
		The capital cost of the equipment, of course, will be something.
		When coal fusion technology is finally on the market, as it will be, we will have installations that cost no more when the mass production takes over than your ordinary oil burner or gas burner or whatever else you're using today.
		But there will be no deliveries of oil.
		There will be no deliveries of natural gas.
		No meter for electricity.
		There might be some periodic incidental changes of materials.
		And we do not believe, by the way, that the materials required for advanced coal fusion technology will use precious metals such as palladium necessarily.
		It might be involved, but unlikely to be limiting the process.
		It will be simply the changing of certain filters, incidental matters of this sort, normal upkeep.
		But the fuel cost will be zero.
		I cannot emphasize that enough.
		Water is essentially free.
		That's what we're talking about.
		Now, the implications of that were clear on day one.
		In fact, all the news media back in the spring of 1989 asserted that fact.
		It was clear that if Pons and Fleischmann were correct, which was the only issue at hand, not politics, not how well they announced their claims or whether it was a news conference or not a news conference, the only issue at hand on the table in 1989 should have been, do they have a valid claim?
		Now, the shocking news is this.
		Numerous people began in the spring of 1989 to report positive data.
		And this was all filtering in and inundating the Department of Energy panel that was so-called investigating this business.
		Instead, what the Department of Energy did with that data was to trash it utterly.
		What they did was a kangaroo court with biased witnesses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what was that date, by the way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		89?
unidentified		89.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		89.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The report issued almost immediately, the summer of 89.
		They had their conclusion.
		They finalized the report in the fall of 89.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold on.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		Dr. Maloff is my guest.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		This is CBC.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		You think it's good to, you know, good morning.
		You know, I could expect that perhaps the oil companies with all their power, the energy companies, the utility companies, would want to suppress something like cold fusion.
		But to imagine cold fusion was in essence, back then, anyway, killed because of jealousy over grant money is almost too much to bear.
		And that is exactly the story that we've been hearing from Dr. Maloff.
		And we're going to get back to him right now.
		Doctor, I've got a fact here that asks at some point, could you please discuss this form of energy production as it relates to the second law of thermodynamics?
		In other words, entropy, you cannot break even as in decay.
		And then he goes on to say, believing exactly what you're saying, I wonder how many people out there actually realize what all this means on many levels.
		It is indeed astounding news.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but let me try to address that question, a very appropriate and interesting question.
		Actually, the first law of thermodynamics, the energy conservation law, is the one that is in reality much more important on this issue, cold fusion.
		When you have any device that appears to give more energy out than you're putting in, you begin to wonder, well, am I making a mistake of some sort in my calculations or my analysis of this system?
		Now, let me point out, there are systems today that if you did not understand how they worked, you would say that the conservation of energy was being violated.
		I'll give you a very simple example.
		All nuclear power plants today, if you did not know that a nuclear power plant had a nuclear reaction going on in the metal rods of uranium and so forth, you would see water going in one side of the nuclear plant at one temperature, cold, and coming out hot on the other side and seeing it steam generating and generating electricity.
		You'd say, my God, this plant is violating the first law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course, we don't say that because we understand that a nuclear reactor, a fission nuclear reactor, such as we all are familiar with, works by known principles.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But if you did not know that, if you brought that back to the 19th century.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be magic.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It would be magic.
		And the people in the 19th century would say of this wonder, they would say, where is the coal?
		Where is the oil?
		Where is the wood?
		Where is the smoke coming out of the snack?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then they would probably strap the scientist who claimed to have invented it to a wood pole and burn him alive.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Now that's exactly what we're talking about with coal fusion.
		We're talking about a new type of energy that happens not to produce deadly radiation, thankfully, that happens to produce stupendous energy density.
		The energy density in these, that is the concentration of energy in some of these coal fusion cells, experimental and otherwise, is quite large.
		It is thousands of watts per cubic centimeter.
		That is, something about the size of your thumb would contain energy of thousands of watts of power.
		Now that is big.
		This is a very concentrated form.
		It is not producing deadly radiation.
		The big mystery about coal fusion has been since 91 when almost any serious person looking at the data would have to say that it was either certainly true or was building strongly in that direction.
		Now it's 100% certain because we have not only extremely good technical papers on it showing the evidence clearly by extremely good organizations, but we have the beginnings of commercial products.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, most people, I think, have a basic understanding of a nuclear reactor and the fusion process.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The fusion process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The fusion process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How do we delineate and explain the difference between that and what apparently is going on with cold fusion?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's give it tiny, as non-technical as we can, tutorial.
unidentified		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Fission nuclear power began with, in most people's minds, the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
		Sure.
		That is uranium or plutonium, obtained a particular isotope of uranium, U-235, which had to be separated and concentrated in the Manhattan Project, a great tour de force.
		That is a power whereby a large, massive atom, such as uranium, is split.
		And nature provides this technique very simply.
		You just take a batch of uranium, make it pure enough and small enough, and smash it together with ordinary explosives, and you will get a chain reaction which splits many uranium atoms, and then you get a bomb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And releases the energy all at once.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And releases it all at once.
		When you do it in a fission reactor, such as the power plants that we have around the country today, you do it slowly.
		Fission occurs slowly in a controlled manner, such that it doesn't explode.
		It has no possibility of exploding in a bomb-like state.
		There are some hazards involved, but nonetheless, in the U.S., at least, it's been fairly benign.
unidentified		Okay?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's another form of nuclear energy that people have known about.
		Not fission, not the splitting of heavy atoms, but the joining of light atoms, as in hydrogen.
		Now, that's what the sun is apparently doing.
		In the core of the sun, where it's 20 million degrees.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An ongoing hot fusion reaction.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		An ongoing hot fusion reaction caused readily by the fact that the sun is enormous.
		It has gravitational containment of the fusion reaction.
		And so it burns for billions of years.
		Not burns, literally, but fuses.
		Hydrogen becomes helium.
		Helium is a different type of element.
		There's a change in elements.
		That's fusion.
		Now, fusion is also used in hydrogen bombs, in thermonuclear bombs, the kind we have in our arsenal, the ones that are 1,000 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bombs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The really big bangs.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The really ones that could, if they ever were released, one single bomb would take out a city easily.
		Now, that's hot fusion.
		And the other kind of hot fusion, of course, is what the government has supported for over four decades at universities, which is a tour de force to mimic the stars, to make a controlled fusion reaction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to try to contain it, I take it, with magnetic fields and things of this sort.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Now, let me just tell you, to show what I hope people will perceive as my integrity, I am a man of integrity, I always supported that.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I always thought it was a good idea to put research money into that process, even if it were to cost a lot of money.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it makes sense.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		If you have a potentially infinite supply of water and energy, it would be wonderful if we could get to the goal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Where are we now, presently, with the hot fusion technology?
		I've heard reports that they've achieved it for very tiny amounts of instant portions of a second or something or another.
		Where are we?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		We are nowhere.
		There is no chance that this technology of hot fusion is ever going to produce a practical reactor.
		I say practical.
		I know my engineering judgment tells me, of course, if they were given enough money decades from now, we might have a very large football field size or a very large complex reactor that indeed would be a central station producing electricity.
		Give them enough billions, they'll do it.
		But coal fusion, of course, if it's real, and I believe there's no question that it's real, it's being commercialized at this point, is so much better that is, it doesn't produce deadly radiation as hot fusion would if it worked.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask a question about hot fusion?
		With fission, as you pointed out, there's not really a great danger of explosion.
		Of course, there could be the China syndrome, there could be meltdowns and so forth.
		But generally, there is not the risk of a gigantic explosion.
		There certainly could be the poisoning of people if materials were released.
		Yeah, sure, noble.
		With the hot fusion process, assuming that you could get a plant going, would there be a danger that would exceed the fission process?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No, a hot fusion plant, if one were to be built, and I'm sure they will never be built at this point, would not be a danger of meltdown or explosion.
		There would be highly radioactive materials.
		That's something that the hot fusion people don't ordinarily advertise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Suppose the magnetic containment failed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would occur?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Nothing in particular.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		There would be the escape of the radioactive tritium fuel, which wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad, in my opinion, from what I understand as a fission plant problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so hot fusion would be good if we could get it, but we don't have it, and there's no realistic opportunity for us to have it in the near future.
		Therefore, we get to cold fusion now.
		They are going to bring out, on Good Morning America, assuming they run the piece after we've done all this, in the morning, they're going to bring out a water heater.
		This water heater has been operating for some time now, independent of what.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have had input power to it.
		You have to understand that.
		Ultimately, coal fusion devices will be self-contained.
		There will be no connection to the grid.
		The grid is going to wither.
		In my opinion, as an engineer and seeing the implications of this technology, there's no doubt at all that taken to its logical conclusion, which will begin to happen in the next several years, certainly the first decade of the next century, we're going to see, in my opinion, an explosion of this technology, if it is not suppressed by other means, which it could be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I want to know, how much electrical input does this water heater need to operate?
unidentified		Okay.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The one they have today, since I do not have the technical specifications yet, I cannot say.
		But I can say what I have seen before of their technology.
		Here's the way it works.
		They have had little tiny cells demonstrated at various symposia and coal fusion meetings and commercial exhibits, which have, let's say, one watt of input power and several tens of watts of output power running continuously.
		And any engineer with an electric meter measuring the input current and voltage and measuring the temperature in and the temperature out could easily determine that the output was about 30 or so times the input power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now we get to matters of measurement.
		Arnt, would you please ask the doctor if this over unity is merely pointing out an error in units, i.e., perhaps a unit of electricity is not equal to a unit of heat.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That's a very interesting concept, but it is not.
		I'm glad to say that there's no mistake here.
		I'll give you another example.
		My colleague Jed Rothwell, at one of the meetings in which a clean energy technology cell was being run, one of the earlier versions, they had 1.4 watts of electrical power going into the cell.
		And this was in a hotel suite.
		Out of the business end of the cell with a heat transfer piece of equipment was coming something on the order of 1,300 watts.
		Now, it was only going for several hours in that condition, and it was sufficient to make the hotel suite very uncomfortable.
		It was like a hair dryer from 1.4 watts.
		Now, 1.4 watts is on the order of a small night light or less.
		So you don't get a hair dryer heating effect, I'm sure most of your listeners would agree, from 1.4 watts.
unidentified		I agree.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		There's no mistake.
		Now, the issue has to do with power and energy.
		Now, the energy is the interesting thing.
		Power is just what you measure in one instant.
		Okay, it's 1,000 times the input power.
		And that's impressive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you know, A match can do that instantaneously.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Instantaneously, but it won't go on indefinitely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, and this is a continuing process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This whole fusion is a continuing process.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right, now Motorola tested one of the Patterson cells, and I'm very impressed with the results because what they did is they got it up to temperature, 65 degrees centigrade water going in, and there was some electric power going in, and there was 60 degrees centigrade, I'm sorry, going into the cell, and 75 degrees centigrade water coming out.
		With a little bit of electric power in, it was producing about 20 watts.
		However, they then turned off the input power when it came up to speed, and it went on then, this little tiny cell, with that same temperature difference, with no input power, zero input electricity, for days.
		I have the data, and we published it in Infinite Energy magazine, showing that at least for 11 hours it was dead on straight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, here you have a device that once the input power is cut off, you have an obvious documented continuing process underway.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And there can be no mistake when you have water flowing through a hot object.
		If it is a trivial effect, if it was just like a hot rock placed into a water stream, the water, as any of your listeners would know, should cool the hot rock, and that should be the end of it, and the process should stop, and there should be no temperature difference between input and output.
		But there is a temperature difference, and this effect has been seen over and over and over again in coal fusion.
		This is no joke.
		Now, furthermore, nuclear changes have been seen.
		Here's where we have the evidence of the process going on.
		There is no doubt about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What occurs?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, a whole host of things occurred.
		To ask what is coal fusion is about the same as asking, what is chemistry at the beginning of chemistry?
		If you were to say, what is chemistry in the beginning of, let's say, the 19th century, you know, it would be like asking for an encyclopedia.
		We are seeing art just the tip of an iceberg.
		In one instance, some excellent Japanese work and American work by the Navy people at the Naval Surface Weapons Center in California, China Lake, they have seen helium as a production.
		Professor Arata in Japan, who, by the way, was one of the original hot fusion people, now firmly in the cold fusion camp, he has seen in the recent excellent publications, helium-4 produced, that is the ordinary form of helium that you find in toy balloons, and another form of helium called helium-3, which is extremely rare on Earth.
		So when you see it in an experiment, you know, my God, we're producing a new element from hydrogen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, in the process of cold fusion, they're finding helium-3.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And helium-4.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And helium-4.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But also in these Patterson cells and in other cells, such as Professor Dash in Oregon and Dr. Mizuno in Japan and a number of other people we could cite, they are seeing the changes in heavy metals.
		Now in the case of the Patterson cell, where you have metal coating these plastic beads, what you get are changes in the thin metal, which have been looked at by Dr. Miley, Nuclear Engineering at the University of Illinois, and they find dramatic changes.
		They are quite akin, in a way, to fission, but one important difference.
		They are not radioactive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're nine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're benefiting.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		They're benign.
		So it is like the gift of the gods, I have to say that.
		It is like what could be better than finding an omnipresent fuel that we don't have to fight over, namely water?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it does get better because it is my understanding, and you're going to have to explain this, that it is possible to take some of the high-level waste we have, which, by the way, they plan to store next to me out here, or in New Mexico, and in this cold fusion process, somehow cause it, and I'm not a scientist, so I don't know where I'm going to cause it to disappear, to decay.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		To transmute, to transmute quickly and cheaply.
		That is the other thing that the Good Morning America show should reveal, because we know they've done this and we know they filmed it.
		They take uranium and thorium, which are both radioactive.
		This is not high-level waste, by the way, that they use in these experiments, but it's just a principle in any event.
		It could be done for high-level waste.
		You take the uranium and thorium, you put it on Patterson beads, and you apply this very minor, very benign electricity, and you get, within a period of hours, you get a reduction, a substantial reduction of the radioactivity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is the thorium?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is the energy going, Doctor?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, only God knows, or the theorists know.
		By the way, there are dozens of theories to try to explain this.
		But I am convinced that we must get back to the fundamentals of science, which is data is much more important than theory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And grants.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And grants.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, hold on.
		You've got plenty of time.
		Relax.
		We'll come back, and when we do, we'll go to the phones.
		Thank you.
		So in other words, in other words, here is a process, ladies and gentlemen, that will allow virtual free energy.
		And, by the way, sort of a side benefit, will give us an opportunity to get rid of some of that awful poisonous stuff that otherwise, we're going to have to store, for hundreds of thousands of years.
		Do you understand the implications of what you're hearing?
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Call Art Bell toll-free.
		What's the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255?
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the TVC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is on my Bell, and uh, it is great to be here.
		My guest is Dr. Eugene Meloff.
		And if you would like to ask him a question, we're about to open the phone line.
		Love to have you join us.
unidentified		So pick up the telephone and call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, back to Eugene Meloff, who's editor-in-chief of Infinite Energy Magazine.
		And by the way, if you go to my website, you will see a link to the Good Doctor's website where you can get much more information on that which we are discussing this morning.
		So I suggest you do that.
		Of course, we have our webcam up there.
		I'm presently trying to reconnect to it right now.
		And you'll be able to see the show in progress as well as go to Dr. Malov's website.
		All that in mind, we're about to go to the phones.
		So if you have questions, and remember, later today on ABC's Good Morning America, if everything goes well, and I presume that it will, they are going to bring out a water heater that for the first time nationally in this sort of a forum is going to demonstrate exactly what we have been talking about this morning.
		It should be quite a moment.
		Now, we don't know for sure which hour this demonstration is going to occur, but we believe it may be in the first hour.
		To be on the safe side, if you can't watch, I would take the entire thing.
		It usually begins about 7 a.m. in whatever local time zone you happen to be in.
		That may be different in mountain time zones.
		As the famous saying goes, check your local listings.
		Dr. Malov, are you there?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I sure am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about a few questions from the audience?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Love to take them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here they come.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Malov.
		Hi.
unidentified		Greetings, Art, and the Doctor from the Internet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in cyberspace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		I'm on your website.
		And when you do get a chance, tell us exactly where that link is.
		The Need More Energy seems to go to Health Food, not to the doctor's site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you would please turn your audio down.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
		I'm on a cell phone.
		I'll try to keep my voice down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I meant the radio program going on in the background, sir.
unidentified		Oh, I have it all the way off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Go ahead.
		Do you have a question?
unidentified		Just blown away by the subject, unbelievable effect on world economics and structure, the wealth, power, military.
unidentified		If the doctor has a chance to respond to a couple of these different topics at some point later on, maybe the effect on space-bound payloads.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, wonderful.
unidentified		Whether or not the machine feeds itself perpetual motion, how pure are the samples that may be required and the real safety issues for such things as combustion engines and other smaller applications for that sort of thing.
		I really am very excited about it.
		My uncle was actually at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
		He was the radar man.
		And I'd always looked forward to a time when atomic energy could, in a safe way, possibly be unleashed in a different format.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Here it is.
unidentified		And it just seems like it's it.
		You know, what is Joan London and the other fellow going to be blown away by this?
		Is it that revolutionary that all the energy companies will just flip?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, that's a very good question because I understand this has already been taped.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, is that correct or is it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		This probably won't be a very big segment, but as TV goes, my understanding might be something like a four or five minute segment.
		As I say, it's been done in the past with lesser performance talked about and verified by other scientists on Good Morning America about a year ago and also on Nightline.
		But it is being followed closely, and now we're seeing a rather quantum leap because of two things.
		We're seeing not only a much higher performance level over a long period of time, but we're also seeing what Art earlier mentioned, the transmutation of elements that is taking radioactivity, which indubitably exists in the system at the start, and then goes down, is dramatically reduced over a period of time, hours, not billions of years, and we get rid of the radioactive waste.
		By the way, they're not the only people that have done this.
		There are some other groups that we will be reporting on in Infinite Energy, in magazine.
		We have concrete evidence in hand that this process of reducing radioactivity, that is transmuting elements, which I would call the back door of coal fusion, the opposite side of it, has occurred.
		The data seems to me to be without question, is extremely carefully done, and I have no doubt about it at all.
		It has enormous implications for the state of Nevada, to say the least.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He also asked about our space program.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Let's go back to that.
		Space exploration will be revolutionized, no question.
		I've written about this many times, and what we will see at the bare minimum are small, compact units.
		We do not need solar power that go into space stations, go into space capsules to take care of the routine energy needs.
		Therefore, we won't need all that much generating equipment, such as big solar panels that we have now in space stations.
		But the more exciting thing is this.
		Given that we have already developed so-called ion engines, these are engines that expel propellants at very high velocity electrically, all that's been lacking is a source of electricity.
		Now, they were planning to use fission reactors, ordinary nuclear fission reactors in space, but of course that's politically untenable and probably not wise anyway.
		So now we have a compact source potentially emerging here with this no radiation Quality and yet very high power density.
		So, this will revolutionize electric engine ion engine propulsion, which will allow the solar system to open up.
		You see, these engines are very slow in accelerating things, but once they get up to speed, they're extremely efficient.
		It will allow the space frontier to expand enormously.
		And that's just the beginning.
		There was another question there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he asked about sample purity.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sample purity.
		Well, that is a big issue now in some of the systems, the palladium ones in particular.
		Pons and Feischman had the great misfortune of starting with the most difficult system.
		The ones that go today seem to be far more robust, very forgiving.
		And one would then say, the skeptical person would say, well, since there isn't all that much in the way of sophistication on some of these electrochemical coal fusion systems, why wasn't it seen before?
		Very simple answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't looked for.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No one expected it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		To the phones again.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hi, this is Dan in Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yes.
		Dr. Maliff, I had a chance to see a demonstration last year in Philadelphia.
		There was a group called Better World Technology, and they had demonstrated what is known as Brown's gas.
		Are you familiar with that?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I've heard of Brown's gas.
		In fact, I've recently talked to people whom I consider to be very sane, credible engineers who work with Brown's gas up in Canada.
		I have not followed the Brown's gas issue very much, but they're not claiming, in that case, over unity, that is more energy out than in.
		Brown's gas, which is apparently a very unusual combination of oxygen and hydrogen, split from water in a special way.
		The flame of this gas has some very unusual properties, apparently.
		Now, I have not personally tested it.
		I'm looking forward to testing it in the near future when I see these systems.
		But apparently what happens is that the flame, this amazing flame coming through...
unidentified		It's bright in the sun.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but the gentleman who I consider to be a very reliable person testified to me personally coming to my laboratory here in New Hampshire.
		He said, look, you can take this flame and you can draw it across your hand.
		It will not scorch you.
		Absolutely.
		And an inch or two later, it crosses a piece of thin stainless steel.
		It will cut right through it.
		Obviously, that's shocking.
unidentified		How can that be?
unidentified		It just works on the...
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Let's be real clear about something.
		We do not know how this works.
		For the sake of argument, let's say it does work.
		Let's say that that demonstration is a reality.
		I would like to see it myself to be absolutely sure of this reality.
unidentified		Oh, sure.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I don't believe that it cuts.
		I won't believe it until I physically see it and measure it.
		But since I have talked now, finally, in only recent weeks, to someone I consider an authority on this, I didn't know about him before, and since he, to my face, told me that, Gene, yes, it works this way, you can do this, I will, for the sake of suspend this belief for a few minutes here, say that it works.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's say it does work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How could it work?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, let me make a speculation here and tie it in with cold fusion.
		Much of what's happening with cold fusion is quite mysterious.
		Why there should be nuclear reactions at room temperature is a very big mystery because the nuclei, the positively charged nuclei of atoms, repel each other.
		That's why we don't see it willy-nilly happening all the time, changes of elements happening right in front of our eyes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So the actual truth is, if I were to try and pin somebody down, they would not be able to answer where this energy comes from.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They really couldn't answer the ultimate question.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we can't.
		There isn't in the coal fusion community, there is not in the coal fusion community a general agreement as to how to explain the energy source.
		The general consensus view, however, there is a somewhat of a consensus view on the following point, that it is nuclear reactions, okay, because the nuclear products have definitely been seen.
		There's absolutely no question about that.
		So there are nuclear reactions involved.
		They do not produce intense radiation.
		That's another thing.
		So there are really two miracles here.
		Why is the nuclear reaction occurring at all?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And two, if it is occurring, which of course it is occurring by our evaluation, why is it not producing deadly lethal radiation the way ordinary hot fusion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And that is, we are faced with a double miracle.
		We are faced with new types of nuclear changes.
		Now, I would suggest that perhaps, it's just a speculation, perhaps in the case of Brown's gas, ordinary monatomic hydrogen produced somehow in this very unusual and yet simple process goes into the nuclei of other atoms in the metal.
		For some reason, it doesn't go into the nuclei in your hand easily.
		But let's say in tungsten or in steel, as I've heard, when it does cut steel quite nicely, it perhaps produces something akin to a nuclear reaction and obviously melts the steel.
		Now, that's just a speculation, and I don't want to be held to that because I haven't even seen the process itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, may I ask you about one other thing that I've been very curious about?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of people talking about something called zero-point energy.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An energy that is apparently all around us in space, around us as we speak.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It is real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is real?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It is definitely real.
		It has been measured most recently by a researcher who is now at Los Alamos National Laboratory.
		He was formerly in the state of Washington, I believe.
		Zero-point energy is no big deal in the sense that it has been part and parcel of ordinary quantum mechanics.
		That is, there's this energy fluctuation in space pervading space.
		And it can be measured as a force.
		It can produce a Force, these fluctuations in the quantum level, very much below the size of atoms and particles, does express itself as a force when objects get very close.
		And that has been measured.
		Now, what has not been accepted readily is that this source of energy could be kept.
		That is, it could be taken and used because it's sort of like a warm bath.
		If you have a warm bath, you can't, and everything is sort of the equal temperature around you.
		The room is warm, and the bath is warm, and everything is warm.
		You can't generate electricity with a uniform temperature.
		That's sort of a law of thermodynamics.
		So people, by analogy, are quite amazed when you tell them, you know, we might be able to extract some of this energy from space itself.
		You know, this energy which you say is really there and which has been measured.
		That throws them, because what it looks like then, of course, is a perpetual motion machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you remember, Doctor, when a shuttle mission went up and released a long tether?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And as a matter of fact, it was a mishap, and there was so much energy, apparently produced, that it literally burned the tether in two.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It was an unexpected event, indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		An unexpected event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My question is, Doctor, where did that energy come from?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I cannot comment on that particular episode because I'm not well versed in it.
		I'd prefer not to.
		It might have something to do with zero-point energy.
unidentified		It might not.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It might be a very conventional explanation.
		But what I do know is this.
		I do know that there are some excellent technical papers published in the peer-reviewed literature that state there is no objection on fundamental reasons of what we think we know about physics to oppose the idea that we could get energy from the vacuum.
		Now, there are several devices that we've written about in our magazine that are patented, and they're high-quality people.
		These are not fly-by-nights.
		These are not charlatans, and they're not self-diluted.
		These people have measured what appears to be electrical power from the vacuum.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the vacuum?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		They're generating electric power right now.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Paolo and Alexandra Correa have small devices that generate electric power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It goes back to Tesla, doesn't it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It does.
		It's similar to various claims made earlier in the century.
		I am of the opinion that some of these claims of energy tapping from space are real.
		Now, if that's true, we own the stars.
		If coal fusion is just, quote, a nuclear reaction, a benign nuclear reaction, we own the solar system.
		If zero-point energy is being tapped and producing electric power, we own the stars.
		We can go to the stars easily at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, let me understand something.
		At the orbital position of the shuttle, when it released the tether, there was essentially no atmosphere present.
		In other words, they were in a vacuum, essentially.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Very, very thin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So thin as to be hardly measurable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So to get the amount of electrical energy at the other end of that tether to blow the fuses, which they did, they blew circuit breakers and everything else as that thing literally severed itself, that energy had to come from somewhere.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, you see, they were relying on...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But whether it was more energy coming out than could be accounted for by normal understanding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The motor concept, right?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		All right, Doctor, hold on.
		We'll get right back to you.
		Dr. Eugene Maloff is my guest.
		I'm Art Bell, and you are listening to the Independent American CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		Independent American CBC Radio Network
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		You don't want to miss.
		Good morning, America.
		This morning.
		There is going to be a demonstration of a water heater that operates using the cold fusion process or a variation of the cold fusion process or a variation of the Patterson cell process.
		You don't want to miss it.
		What is at stake?
		Everything is at stake.
		So you don't want to miss that.
		My guest is Dr. Eugene Maloff.
		Doctor, are you there?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I am here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On my first-time caller line, which means he's paying for the call himself, I've got somebody from Belize in Central America.
		Wonderful.
		Hello there, sir.
		You're on the air.
		You're in Belize, huh?
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, Art.
		Good morning, Doctor.
		I was just listening to your last portion before the break about the tether in space and what kind of energy could have been created there.
		We know that something happened, as you were discussing, but what we don't know is why haven't they tried it again to find out what happened?
		Why isn't there any more experimentation with that?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		That's something I really would like to get more into.
		You know, there are so many things happening.
		So many anomalies that one sees when one opens the big blue ones, you begin to realize that many things that you previously thought were on solid ground may not be, such as a tether in space.
		If an anomaly occurred there and an unexpected power burst that conventional electrical theory cannot explain.
		If that is the case, I don't know that that's the case, but let's say it is the case.
unidentified		Well, it's true, too, that we don't understand electricity to its full extent, but it would seem to me that with NASA sending up so many shuttles on regular missions, why not try it again?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have to agree.
		And then there's one more thing.
		Obviously, they did not expect this result.
		Whatever engineering they did, they did to be able to try and draw a predicted amount of electricity and use it.
		So whatever occurred was obviously unexpected.
		That would be a fair observation, considering the thing broke in half.
unidentified		Yes, agreed.
unidentified		But why not try it again to see if that's a good idea?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I absolutely agree with you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, what are you doing in Belize?
unidentified		I'm an entertainer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See?
unidentified		I'm living in Balami, Mosquito Island down here called San Pedro Ambergerski and enjoying it immensely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I thank you very much for the call, and it's well pointed out.
		And now that I've taken care of that gentleman, Doctor, rest for a moment.
		We'll be right back to you.
		All right.
		Doctor, in this field of cushion, zero-point energy, how much hucksterism is going on?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're in the business of trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
		There is a lot of hucksterism going on, and I regret to say that.
		Of course, it gets confused.
		The good stuff does get confused, which is why we make a very strenuous effort to separate what we can test and see and have other independent investigations support.
		But I will tell you this.
		The bottom line is that there is absolutely no doubt that there are over-unity processes that are of immense importance that will rely on effectively free fuel, such as cold fusion processes that use water as a basis,
		very tiny amounts of fuel being consumed, and other things such as the Correa device in Canada, and ones that may approach it in their heretical performance, generating electricity, generating over-unity effects from God knows where.
		By the way, there's a whole other class, which we call cavitation devices.
		These are devices that produce intense bubbles in water, like the cavitation that you experience on ships' propellers.
		There's a phenomenon called soluminescence, which is the emission of light.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, as you watch, if you go out, for example, as I do on cruises, and you go out at night, they have great big screws that propel these big cruise ships.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the cavitation process produces a glow in the water behind the ship.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Well, I'm not exactly familiar with the glow behind the ship, maybe the other things involved, but definitely cavitation bubbles produce light emission.
		And this emission is extremely difficult to explain by ordinary theories.
		One of the latest theories is that it indeed extracts energy from space.
		There's some very sane technical papers on that.
		We personally have tested devices that use cavitation, and they appear to be over unity.
		We are hearing about more and more of these that do produce in a very simple system, quite frankly, you know, a spinning rotor with holes in it, for example, running at close tolerances, producing more heat output than electric power required to spin the turbine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so when real honesty is called for, whichever process we're talking about, of the ones that really do or can be proven to work, we don't really know why they work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't really know where the energy is coming from.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But it is real.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		You see, we have to get back to this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm just trying to clarify a point that we don't really understand where the energy is coming from.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Except in the case of cold fusion, it is getting to be pretty clear now that nuclear changes attend them.
		That is, the nuclear changes are occurring.
		There's no doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, yes, I understand that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But even listening to you, you can't quite fully explain why.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		There are certain, but you have to understand that we've had many international meetings on coal fusion.
		There'll be the seventh international one next spring in Vancouver, by the way, April 19th through the 24th.
		And at these meetings, you have contending theorists within the coal fusion field battling with various ideas.
		But what they are all in agreement on is that we are dealing with a real subject.
		This is in contrast to the appalling neglect the scientific community at large is giving to this subject, which was, of course, launched and masterminded by what you would have to call bigoted scientists, people with vested interests, not only vested interests in hot fusion, by the way, but vested interests intellectually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm so sick of vested interests, period.
		Back to the phone lines.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning with Dr. Maloff.
unidentified		Good morning, Mr. Bell.
unidentified		I started to say, Dr. Good morning.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
unidentified		Well, while I was waiting, I have to tell you, waiting to come on the air, when you said, are you overweight?
		I instantly sucked in my gut.
		I've been fighting the battle of the bulge.
		I've been meaning to send for that product instead of starving myself half to death all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Doctor, good morning, sir.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		I have two things.
		First of all, I find it fascinating about this water heater because I recall in the 1950s when they came out with a new device so they wouldn't explode, that shut-off device.
		And now it's the water heater once again.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what shut-off device you're talking about, and what type of energy were you talking about?
unidentified		Well, the water heaters would build up so much heat that they could explode.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And then they developed a shut-off valve when it reached a certain heat level.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Certain pressure.
unidentified		Yes, sir.
		My question, a dear friend of mine was a screenplay writer, Stanley Shapiro, who is now deceased.
		I brought him together with a gentleman in the early 1970s, and he had written a book based on this fellow's theory that Newton's law, a gravitational pull, could be wrong, that throughout all of the creation, that it could be push.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Oh, yes.
		I've heard that too.
		Would you care to comment on that?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me comment in general about new physics theories.
		I think we are indeed faced with an emerging fact that all our existing theories don't adequately explain things like cold fusion, things like perhaps such as the Taylor system.
		And that brings to mind my very good friend, Dr. Peter Graneau, who's in Massachusetts.
		He and his son, Neil Granot, who is at Oxford University, they have a theory of electrical forces, very well considered, based on very, very copious experimental evidence, that shows that some aspects of electromagnetic behavior are not what they seem at all.
		They've done experiments which show that there are some very serious contradictions in electromagnetic theory as practiced today.
		So these longitudinal forces and other things that the Grenots are talking about must be on the table.
		The point of the matter is we do not have, at this stage of our existence in human civilization, we don't have the final theory.
		Of course, the physicists, the mainstream physicists with their vested interests, are writing books like The End of Science and The Theory of Everything and so forth, stating that we are pretty close to understanding it all.
		They're so out to lunch they don't even know where they are.
		They can't even explain, of course they're ignoring it completely, tabletop nuclear reactions.
		That's what we're talking about here.
		We're talking about things that do not fit into the current paradigm.
		It is an immense paradigm shift.
		I would say it is about as strong and important a paradigm shift in physics as, let's say, the Copernican Revolution was.
		That's going to revolutionize human culture as well, as one of our callers, one of your callers, mentioned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let me ask the inevitable, and it is from Bridget in Durham, Oregon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Won't the international oilmen slash bankers either refuse to fund cold fusion projects or manage to sabotage them through adverse publicity and worse, unless they can manufacture a method of recouping their losses?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The oil cartels, the writing is on the wall for them.
		They're dead.
		They're going to be dead.
		Their only hope at this point, in my opinion, is to join in and become investors in the whole Coal Fusion new energy field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't beat them, John.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		You have to.
		They'll have to.
		Anyone who does not will be going against the grain.
		Every once in a while in history, the critical mass of intelligence and data come together as it's come in coal fusion and washes away the old.
		You're not going to have horse and buggies being the dominant form of transportation when you have automobiles.
		And you're not going to have trains being the dominant form when you have airplanes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I heard an interesting fact out of all things yesterday, the travel channel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They said, do you know that it was just 66 years from the time the Wright brothers flew until we first landed on the moon?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now that bears a little thought.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It does.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there has not been a similar revolution or quickening, if you will, in the development of new technologies like the ones we're talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would say computers, in a way, are.
		It's crept up on us.
		You know, in the mid-70s, I remember using a slide rule when I was at MIT in the late 60s.
		You know, we didn't expect that sitting on our desktops in only 20 years, we would have computers that are far more powerful than the largest mainframes that existed back then.
		It kind of crept up on us.
		Now, this thing is, this coal fusion is crept up on us.
		Most people have been unaware of it because the mass media and the Department of Energy and the vested academic interests have done an incredible hatchet job.
		But fortunately, thousands of good scientists all over the world have continued working on it.
		The data is irrefutable.
		And now commercial enterprises, small commercial enterprises in the U.S., larger ones in Japan, and soon the whole world will be ignited by this.
		I have no doubt.
		We're dealing with a real phenomenon.
		So therefore, it's got to be commercialized.
		And this is going to change completely the global power structure.
		Those countries that are completely vested in oil as their main staple are going to suffer very badly.
		In some cases, I could care less with those particular countries.
		We know who they are.
		But in other cases, we may have a more charitable attitude toward them.
		It will be too bad.
		There will be displacement as any revolution creates.
		But there will be enormous numbers of new jobs because the entire energy infrastructure of the planet is going to have to change.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, what can you tell me about, in other words, these large energy and oil companies have got to clearly at this point, see the writing on the wall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So have you begun to see a shift or an interest?
unidentified		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		We have seen people in the oil industry coming to us, subscribing to the magazine, among other things, and talking to us.
		In fact, some of those oil companies weren't so bad in the early days of Coal Fusion.
		One, Amoco, actually got positive coal fusion results in 1989.
		They were subsequently published later on.
		They were actually going to get into it quite deeply, except the Department of Energy created such a stink against Coal Fusion, they were embarrassed to bring out their own work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, though, Doctor, here's what I see in my mind's eye, and I guess maybe I'm wrong, but I see you, Doctor, and people like you sitting at a great big solid oak table with a big guy down at the other end, probably with a cigar stuffed into his mouth, saying, well, this is some damn machine you got here, bud.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What I want you to tell me is how do we get a meter on it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, there isn't going to be a meter.
		The only thing that we'll have, The only way that this will be controlled with meters, in my opinion, yes, the government, in order to maintain its taxation on oil, as it does now, and energy in general, will have to put some kind of, will try to put a tax on the machines themselves as they come off the production line, something of this sort.
		But there's not going to be any meter.
		This is completely going to overwhelm any attempt to control it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No meter.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No meter.
		Because, you know, we're not going to have power lines coming into the house.
		They're going to be self-contained electric generators in small complexes, perhaps, or in just a home.
		Individual homes will have their own electricity generation.
		People will be able to place their homes anywhere they want, irrespective of the grid.
		And we're going to have to have a whole change in our philosophy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Mr. Sir, as the network anchor was told in the movie Network, you are tampering with the basic forces of nature.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		We are.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And somebody is going to bury you.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Not going to happen.
		There are thousands of people now who know this reality.
		Okay, this is a reality.
		By the way, it's been in a movie.
		I was proud to be the advisor to the Saint movie, which featured Cold Fusion as a theme.
		It's fiction in the movie, but the reality is that it's there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but today, even today, Doctor, people are saying, based on the negative publicity over the years, cold fusion just isn't real.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're saying it, but these are hollow words.
		The critics of Cold Fusion are quite amazing.
		They are like wily coyote.
		They've gone off the cliff already.
		They're spinning their legs.
		They're laughing and smiling.
		But they're about to plunge down a mile or so and be destroyed forever.
		That's what's going to happen.
		There's no doubt about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Maloff.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, my discussion with vested interest and conflict of interest, too.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And not being a scientist, I can't confirm this revolutionary cause fusion.
		But I think just as important area of an investigation would be what you brought into this, this whole idea that powerful interests, even smaller interests, like $30 million of a grant, can suppress a revolutionary new development.
		And I think from that, I was reading in Extra magazine, which is put out by Sarah, how, because I think this is all interdisciplinary and how, for instance, this story that came out got a similar type of hatchet job about the CI Contra involvement in drug smuggling.
		Time Magazine's senior editor told their own research reporter who came up with the same evidence of a contra CI drug smuggling.
		We're going to kill your story about Contra drug smuggling because we institutionally support the Contras.
unidentified		We are committed to the Contra Smuggler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, though, you're way off into another subject, sir.
		But the fact of the matter is that the San Jose Mercury began backing away from the story that caused all the controversy.
		And if you don't believe me, check into it.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on there with Dr. Malofai.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		I'm going to find out if there's any way to convert some of the nuclear waste out there into run cars with.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, we're not going to use nuclear waste to run cars, but we are with coal fusion now, with the new processes that have been discovered as a result of it.
		We're going to be able to very cheaply, as the years emerge here, reduce and eliminate nuclear waste.
		We're going to be able to change it into very benign forms.
		This is completely heretical.
		Radioactivity is not supposed to change by anything you do to it with, say, temperature or electricity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has a specific decay period which is horrendously long.
		We can barely plan 40 years in the future, much less tens of thousands of years.
		And they're telling us we're going to have to safely store this crap for tens of thousands of years next to me.
		No, thank you.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		My feeling is this.
		I think that the revolution against what happened to Coal Fusion, the final political awareness that something must be done to reinvestigate the Department of Energy and let heads roll at the Department of Energy, it may come from this nuclear waste issue.
		Because let's face it, folks in Nevada do not want this nuclear waste dump dumped in their neighborhood.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, we don't.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And they shouldn't have to deal with it.
		Because now the Department of Energy, just like in 89, it was faced with an issue.
		Is this real or not?
		Well, then they chose to have a kangaroo court and they thought they got rid of it, but you can't get rid of something that's real.
		So they failed.
		Now we have another anomaly that you're going to see in a few hours, we trust, if the schedule is correct.
		And Good Morning, America.
		We're going to have nationally televised evidence that there is a method, a benign, simple, cheap method of getting rid of nuclear waste.
		Now, if congressmen and citizens do not raise holy hell in Washington and say, we're not sure this is real, but you damn well better investigate this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You better damn well find out.
		How about that?
		Doctor, look, we're at a break point.
		I can use you one more hour if you want it.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I'll take it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll take it.
		You've got it then.
		All right, Dr. Eugene Mellov is my guest.
		Are you listening?
		Do you understand the implications of what's being said here about energy, about what we're doing to ourselves, about what we can do with this high-level thinking waste?
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's see if this makes any sense.
		Dear Art and Dr. Maloff, NASA deployed a 20-meter conducting tether from the shuttle to measure and use the motion through the Earth's magnetic field, they say, to generate power through inductance.
		At 20.0 meters, at the velocity of 250 meters per second, and using the Downward component of the magnetic force of the field, they should have conducted only 0.30 volts.
		They got much more.
		So I agree with that caller.
		I cannot understand why we have not yet done it again.
		Or could it be because of the fact they got so much more that it has revealed something that they don't really want revealed yet?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It's possible.
		Let's just take the facts as the listener presented them.
		Let's take those facts as a given for the sake of argument.
		If a very unexpected voltage and current appeared, it would my understanding now that I've seen how the coal fusion controversy emerged, I would expect a similar thing.
		A controversy would erupt within NASA over what happened, and there would be blame assigned and so forth.
		There would be various attempts to cover responsibility, etc.
		And stupidity and an incompetence and not so much greed or desire to conceal a new discovery would come into play, but an attempt to basically cover their behinds as to why this failed.
		You see, when conventional scientists observe some new phenomenon, unlike what they normally pronounce, they normally say, oh, we want to see new things because anomalies are what energizes science and expands the frontiers.
		That's not true.
		Most scientists do not want to see new things because it upsets them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing that would explode their little theory.
unidentified		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, for example, the classic example is Professor Hermann Feschbach at MIT.
		Back in 1991, shortly before I resigned from MIT over various matters, including the fudging of the anti-coal fusion data, I had an article that was going to appear in MIT Technology Review.
		It was going to be on the coal fusion evidence as it existed back then.
		It was approved by one of the former editors of the Technology Review magazine.
		But a few weeks later, after getting word that it was approved, I heard from this editor, this spineless former editor, he said, we're not going to publish it.
		And I said, what are you talking about?
		He told me it was going to be published.
		It was going to be a cover story.
		And he finally revealed the nature of who had deep sixed it.
		It was a physics professor, Professor Feschbach, among others, but he was the primary one.
		And I called him up, not expecting a change, but I had never heard from him, never talked to him before.
		And I asked him why he was rejecting this, why he was recommending it not be published, and it never was published.
		He said, look, I've had 50 years of experience in nuclear physics, and I know what's possible and what's not possible.
		Well, I said, Professor Feschbach, would you at least agree to read the summary of the cold fusion evidence as it stood in 1991 by Dr. Storms of Los Alamos National Laboratory and also Dr. Srinivasan Bulba Atomic Research Center in India?
		They reviewed the evidence.
		They would like you to look at it and make your own conclusion from it.
		He said, I will not look at this evidence.
		It's all junk, and he hung up.
		Then about five years later, he got on national television, a nightline, no, it was Good Morning America, I believe, at the time, and when asked about the Patterson cell, he said, look, I have no knowledge of this Patterson cell.
		I don't know what it is.
		I don't have any experience with it, but I can assure you that there were no nuclear reactions in it.
		So it was very similar to the church back in 1600, who said, look, we're not going to look through the telescope.
		We know our theories of the universe and Aristotle and so forth state that the heavens are perfect.
		We're not going to see craters on the moon, blah, blah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so we don't want to see anything that would spoil that theory.
unidentified		That's right.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		So 400 years later, we see the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Science hasn't changed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you are on the air with Dr. Malov.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, and I have a couple questions for you.
		My name is Richard from Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		First off is how soon do you think it would be before the average person could build one or buy one of these things and how much would it cost?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's an awfully good question.
		Let's not go with the build part.
		Let's go with the when is somebody going to put a water heater like you're about to see on ABC's Good Morning America this morning.
		When is somebody going to put that on the market?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		There are two answers to that question.
		One has to do with what could be done if the resources were there and an engineer, a crack engineering team were involved.
		The other is practicalities of the money situation and the development and politics and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Politics.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		All right.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		If there were a crack team and the proper resources applied to this problem right now, my opinion is that we would have a home heating unit for the next heating season, that is this coming fall.
unidentified		Without question.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Without question.
		I have zero question about that based on what we know.
		Now, if you're talking about the practicalities of how is little company A dealing with this and investments and licenses and all this other business, and the way the Department of Energy acts and the way regulations might be employed to suppress this, not suppress it, but to delay it.
		Delay it.
		For example, the first thing they're going to say is, let's say the water heater is available for next, or the home heating system is available for next heating season.
		Let's imagine what will happen.
		The first thing that will happen is the Department of Energy will say, well, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission must be involved to assess whether this is a danger, because now you're saying it's nuclear and we interesting admission in itself, wouldn't it?
		In fact, it would be...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would say a nuclear reaction is underway.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Now, then there would be an unbelievable demand by, hopefully, the citizens of the United States who would say, all right, we agree it's nuclear.
		Everyone agrees it's real.
		Why is it being slowed down?
		We know we're going to immediately begin to shave the balance of payments, trade deficit, and the pollution and everything else.
		Why can't we be at least reasonably satisfied based on the fact that we have radiation instruments monitoring this and we're not seeing radiation coming out?
		We see no deadly effects.
		The people who have been working on this for years are not getting sick.
		Why can't we have this now?
		And the answer might be, I regret to say, might be, well, we don't know what it is yet.
		We better ban it for a while or study it.
		And the oil companies then, stupid as they are, may participate in that kind of nonsense.
		It would give them, let's say, a few more years of polluting the planet with their oil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So unrealistically, next heating season, realistically, years and years.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
unidentified		I hope.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I'm an optimist in this.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Despite the fact that I've been and we've all in the coal fusion field been terribly abused and neglected by this outrageous performance of places like MIT, Caltech, and the Department of Energy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The following heating season, Doctor.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		The following heating season.
		No, I'm optimistic.
		I'm not saying we're going to have these home heating units this heating season.
		I'm saying in the next several years, several meaning two, three years, I hope by then, since the processes are now so advanced, I hope we do have these home prototype units that are completely reliable, ready for mass production.
		That would be a very big step.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller, does that answer your question?
unidentified		Yes, one more comment, I guess.
unidentified		If you put a tax one year at a time, I don't know.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I don't want it to be taxed at all.
		Banking, the free energy, this free freedom that we're going to have, it's kind of like the free information that we have.
		We now have virtually free information, despite the fact that we have small charges for web access.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, but they're busily trying to figure out ways to tax it, and they're talking about a per-bit tax over modems.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I know, but I don't think the people are going to stand for that, frankly.
		But I hope they don't stand for it.
		We have virtually free information.
		Now we're going to enter the age of virtually free or essentially free energy.
		Everything's going to be retrofit.
		We're going to go into an era of dramatically reduced pollution, I trust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hope.
		And by the way, may I stop you there?
		You have looked into such things.
		Doctor, I am convinced that our weather is in the process of a change that I'm not particularly pleased with.
		Environmentally, I see a lot of things going on that I'm not pleased with.
		The ozone hole holes, I guess plural now.
		A lot of things are beginning to go on that are adding up to trouble for us if we continue on our present course.
		Do you agree with that?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		I have a limited agreement with that.
		Let me just state.
		I've studied, for example, the CO2 controversy.
		It's quite an interesting controversy, sort of the opposite of the coal fusion controversy.
		In my opinion, we humans living in the latter part of the 20th century have a very limited range of experience, vis-à-vis weather and climate.
		There have been huge changes in climate over the eons that the planet has been around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We know that, yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, I'm very fond of talking with people like Professor Richard Lindzen at MIT, who's a heretic on the matter of the CO2 global warming business.
		He says, look, we can't be absolutely sure of whether warming is occurring or not, but we do not have to have hysteria about it.
		So he would sort of toss that into the area of he doesn't really believe it, but it's a question that is open.
		Now, my perspective on it is this.
		I think it could be real or it could not be real.
		But furthermore, I will say that the basic assumption of all these doomsday scenarios with respect to global warming is that carbon dioxide will continue to build up.
		That's because we thought there's no other way of generating electricity or heating homes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Now we have the rug pulled out completely from that scenario.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		We have the very, very real opportunity to eliminate that inexorable climb of the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's somewhat academic anyway, since it is my understanding that in about 40 years we will exhaust present supplies of readily available petroleum.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That's generally agreed, but you know there's some new theories about even that.
		There's a deep earth gas theory of Tommy Gold of Cornell, and there's some evidence for it that states the following.
		The earth may be saturated with primordial methane.
		And Gold has been right about many things in the past.
		He's a very brilliant man.
		So in theory, there might be an almost inexhaustible source of methane, and he even goes further.
		He says that oil is not really biogenic.
		It didn't come exclusively from fossil decay.
		It was produced within the Earth.
		So in some sense, that might not be true, but certainly we all have to agree, as the population of the Earth expands, we cannot realistically continue to burn fossil fuels.
		You can just see it in the cities.
		Numerous, tens of thousands of deaths every year occur, we believe, due to small particulates in the atmosphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, look, there's no question about it.
		I was in Bangkok a couple of years ago.
		If you think our air pollution is bad, try Bangkok for a day.
		And about 40% or more of the traffic cops have fatal lung disease.
		Wow.
		So I don't believe it's anymore.
		Well, you can believe it.
		It's true.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Maliff.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes, Ethan, San Diego.
		Yeah, I just call about the, I sent a paper about the reverse concept of gravity.
		So push instead of pull.
		Basically, gravity be created by every other mass on any two masses rather than the two masses, creating a force that curves around and comes back with a stronger force.
		So, space wouldn't be just a big vacuum over the universe.
		Wouldn't be a huge mass of forces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you on earlier, caller?
unidentified		Not today, no.
unidentified		Okay.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		We have another caller here who's speculating about theory.
unidentified		For the year, they come up with a reverse concept of gravitational push rather than pull at the beginning of the year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Regardless of whether it's a push or a pull, the questions that we're, I don't think it bears on the questions that we're dealing with here, does it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't really.
		But there are, I must tell you, in addition to the main question of, not question, in addition to the issue of what physics will explain cold fusion or zero-point energy tapping and the like, I must tell you that there are other anomalies that I now take much more seriously within physics, such as potentially observed anti-gravity effects on magnets and superconductors.
		There have been reports of this.
		We counted some of them in Infinite Energy.
		But, you know, we really must get back to basics in science.
		I think this, in fact, by the way, may be one of the most important aspects of the coal fusion revolution.
		Indeed, cleaning up the planet, providing cheap and abundant energy, that's important.
		But perhaps the other most important aspect, which isn't often considered here, the establishment, as a result of this, is going to suffer such an incredible embarrassment to its credibility, that is the scientific establishment, that many other heretical concepts, which should be investigated, they're not necessarily true, but they at least should be investigated, will, I think, take on greater importance.
		The people are going to say, if you guys in the scientific establishment, with all the billions of dollars we gave you, if you could create such a disaster as eliminating from the agenda of science and the Department of Energy this miraculous discovery for eight years, what else have you screwed up?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you bet once lied to Twi-Shy or something or another.
		Anyway, this is pretty heavy stuff.
		We're discussing the future of our planet and the people on it.
		No less.
		And also that nasty waste that we're getting ready to store right next to me.
		I have great interest in that.
		We'll be right back.
		This is CBC.
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		Shall I stay?
		Would it be your stay?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning from the high desert.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Okay, I've got an intro sex here from Sean David Morton, who's been a guest on this program.
		Doctor, let me read this to you and see if you can add anything to it or maybe slam it down.
		Last year, I met a scientist that was on his way back from a meeting in Geneva.
		He said a group of 150 scientists met to study a very serious ongoing problem.
		He said that the process underway, the China syndrome, as you will, nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl, had now eaten 800 feet down through the planet, was headed toward a huge underground aquifer, a sea, he called it.
		He said that when the nuclear material hit the water at about 2,400 feet, it would either explode or cause a crater five miles deep and 140 miles wide, or would poison much of the Russian and European water supply.
		He said this would happen by 2004.
		Do you have any information on this or any ideas on a solution how to stop it?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, first of all, I'm not sure this is a valid report.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Second, as soon as I heard a crater five miles wide or deep, did I hear?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Essentially impossible.
		We're talking about fissionable material that's there, and I don't know whether it's migrating or falling or whatever it's doing, but an atomic bomb, a fission bomb would not do that.
		A fusion bomb, a thermonuclear weapon, would have trouble making a crater five miles deep without being perfected.
		So I hardly think that the fissionable material that does still exist, obviously, within Chernobyl, and I don't know whether it's migrating or not migrating, could ever cause a catastrophe of that sort.
		Not to say that Chernobyl is not a very, very serious problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know the containment is rapidly deteriorating.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That could be.
		I'm not up on the latest with it.
		I don't want to prejudge anything about what may be leaking out.
		This could be perhaps an exaggeration of a more limited problem, but it is certainly not going to explode and create a multi-mile crater.
		You would rule that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That part you would rule out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Obviously, though, if this very hot material hit very cold water, there would be very serious consequences.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		It could be steam pressures and so forth.
		Yes, it's a serious matter.
		The fact is, by the way, I supported nuclear power, not that kind of nuclear power.
		The Russian kind of reactors are terribly dangerous.
		We all acknowledge that at this point.
		But the reactors in the U.S., by and large, are very safe.
		And before the advent of cold fusion, I would have said that we need more nuclear power, even though it was politically untenable.
		But I would say at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's really still true today, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, cold fusion at its best is not ready to replace nuclear power plants.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No, it is not, but it could very quickly.
		Okay, you see, I would use the paradigm of aviation, and I would use the paradigm of the computer.
		Now, many of your listeners may not be aware that between 1903 and 1908, the Wright brothers were flying in broad daylight in Ohio, and they were still dismissed by the establishment.
		Scientific American, the major Eastern media, major all media refused to acknowledge they had done it.
		But, of course, what happened was once the technology began to be believed, as it did in 1908, after a demonstration in Fort Myers, Virginia, it was a rapid scale-up, and we have a very quick introduction of the airplane into World War I and then into commercial service.
		Computers, personal computers in particular, and even large frame computers, came up in the century very rapidly in a very unexpected way and have obviously revolutionized everything.
		So I believe that once the first cold fusion devices break through into the marketplace, and I think that can happen in an end.
		It will be very rapid.
		What we have to do is get beyond, what we're at now is the stage of disbelief.
		And if I may say, the most critical thing that people in the state of Nevada could do would be to demand, I mean demand, of their representatives that an investigation be made about the ability of the coal fusion process to remediate nuclear waste, which obviously affects them on a very personal basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay, there should be holy hell raised in the state of Nevada.
		Starting there, the coal fusion revolution will spread everywhere.
		They then, you see, by accepting the fact, as they will rapidly find out when they observe this process and have it validated, that must imply by its very nature that the coal fusion heat process is also real.
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Doctor, I have a question for you.
		We have massive amounts of nuclear waste presently generally being stored in water below the reactors, and in some cases even above ground.
		Now, how quickly, how efficiently, if it began to work, could cold fusion begin to eat this stuff up?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, based on what I've seen already of the data, of two independent companies now doing this very same thing, okay, they can do it with thorium and uranium.
		There is no reason why it couldn't happen with the other radionuclides, the ones that are less massive.
		There's no reason at all.
		In fact, in the latest issue of infinite energy, we have a theoretical discussion of exactly how that could be done.
		So my assumption is if there were a team of good scientists and engineers put to work on this, hell, the process could go to work almost immediately.
		In other words, what they would have to do, of course, is get it beyond the laboratory scale to an industrial process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It could happen very quickly.
		I understand you're saying the process could ensue quickly.
		I'm asking how quickly would it actually begin to consume substantial quantities of high-level waste?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, the sheer volume of it, I don't know the exact volume of all the high-level waste.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not sure any of us do.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		But it is not so immense, given the power of nuclear power, that it is not unthinkable that it could be eaten up in fairly short order.
		It's our guessing off the top of my head, just the top of my head.
		If the process were commercialized and were put into appropriate activation, I wouldn't see why, again, this is a guess, sort of an intellectual imagining here as an engineer.
		Perhaps in a decade it could all be eliminated?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A decade.
		All right.
		You know, our senators have been doing their dead-level best to get this high-level waste dump diverted the hell out of Nevada.
		Right.
		I would suggest they contact you.
		Have you had any contact with them?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No.
		There are several congressmen, former Congressman Walker of the former of the South, South, the House Science Space Committee, a very influential man.
		He, in Popular Science 1985, acknowledged that coal fusion was real.
		He acknowledged that.
		There is a prestigious congressman.
		Of course, he's now retired and doing nothing for this, it seems to me.
		We have no support at the presidential and vice presidential level.
		We have occasionally we hear from a we will approach a congressman or a senator and get some nice winks from them.
		But that's about it.
		These people are out to lunch.
		But the fact is you have in Nevada the key linchpin of this entire problem, which is why I'm so glad I'm on your program.
		If you could possibly get these Nevadan congressmen and governors and citizens of Nevada to demand an investigation of what they are about to see on national television, and which I will go anywhere, any place, believe me, to convince them that we are dealing with a reality here.
		I will show them the data.
		I will tell them why I believe it's true.
		I will have them talk to the very lab people who did the tests.
		We will demonstrate it right before their very eyes if that needs to be, if national television isn't good enough.
		And we can then start the whole process rolling of reinvestigating this outrageous report of 1989.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On Good Morning America, the segment that is going to air this morning.
		Will there be discussion of the high-level nuclear waste problem as it is associated to the cold fusion process, or are they going to just demonstrate the cold fusion process?
		Do you know?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		No, I do know.
		If the program airs this morning, as I trust it will, okay, there should be a time-lapse portrayal, not a portrayal, an actual experiment conducted on the premises of the Clean Energy Technology Corporation in Sarasota, Florida, a time-lapse showing that the Geiger-Counter readings on the cell lower substantially over a period of hours.
		Now, there was more data that was shown on a chart form back down at the American Nuclear Society meeting where we had a session on this, and it was quite clear to me that Dr. Patterson had accumulated remarkable evidence of the decrease.
		So, yes, it will be portrayed on national television.
		And I hope that they obviously must refer to the waste problem.
		How could they not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can only hope that they adequately explain the implications for a public that's pretty numb, frankly, what's at stake here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time, CallerLine, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Malafi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, Doctor, this is a great experience for me to be on the air with Art and you talking about such significant changes that are coming about in this area.
unidentified		Are you aware of Mr. Joseph Newman and his theory of gioscopic particles?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		I'm very sorry to mispronounce that.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		I am familiar with Joseph Newman.
		In fact, I recently met him at the Fourth International New Energy Symposium in Denver.
		Joseph Newman was seriously abused by the system.
		There's absolutely no doubt about it.
		He should have been granted a patent.
		There was clear evidence that he had an important process.
		How real it was still remains somewhat of a mystery to me.
		We did write an article about him and his travails.
		I respect him.
		I think my own humble opinion is that he was so abused by the system that he kind of went off the deep end a bit and got very angry and is kind of being, in a way, his own worst enemy today.
		But I wish him well.
		One thing I know for sure, his theory, whether right or wrong, in my own opinion, I'm not so sure about it, but I'm sure he would be very sure about it.
		I do believe that other devices are ratifying what he said.
		That is, at least ratifying the performance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can understand the frustration that would finally drive somebody off the deep end.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can understand that.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No matter whether the process was a real or not.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Melov.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello, Art.
		Dr. Melov, I really enjoyed the conference in Denver, and I certainly agree that Newman's presentation there was disturbing because of his experience.
		But a couple of the things that I picked up there that were most interesting to me was the information from Dr. John Moreland about the history of these actions going back to Le Bon's work in 1907, 1908.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		As far as the physics and radioactivity are concerned.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		They're apparently what this caller is bringing to the fore, we keep encountering very unusual new anomalies or resurrecting old ones, should I say.
		It was a fellow by the name of T. Henry Moray who allegedly had a rather powerful electric generator.
		It was witnessed by many people and then it sort of disappeared.
		Many people have had these things kind of disappear.
		But now, with hindsight, physicists are looking into this, good people like Morland, and they're finding that in all likelihood, these people have these things.
		And the particular units that we're talking about used radioactive materials, radium, to create electricity directly.
		My understanding is this summer at the Tesla Symposium in Colorado Springs, Dr. Brown will be there to demonstrate a 200-watt electric generator based on this radioactive material.
		We'll see.
		But clearly, there's a patent position on it.
		There are past reports of Moray and so forth.
		Most fascinating.
		Thanks for bringing it up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Maloff.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Dr. Maloff.
		Good morning.
		My name's Stephanie, and I'm from Gentryville, Indiana.
		Okay.
		And the reason why I'm calling is my husband and I have been using a corn burning stove for approximately eight years.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Corn burning?
unidentified		Corn burning.
		Just shelled corn.
		Okay.
		And we think this is a great idea about the cold fusion and the heating.
		Would that also work on air conditioning?
		Oh, you know, I'm sorry.
		Absolutely.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Any energy source.
		You see, any energy source is capable of doing ultimately, of course, what any other one is doing.
		Except, of course, solar power and wind power are very weak in many respects and have to obey the rotation of the earth and whether the sun is out and the weather and so forth.
		But coal fusion is very compact.
		Now you bring up corn burning.
		We have encountered some rather interesting new work on biomass that was used in underwater arcs.
		That is a company out in Colorado is quite literally dissolving organic materials in water, and they are creating electric arcs underwater with this and producing a gas.
		Now the gas has very unusual properties.
		It appears from our testing, from their testing so far, that more energy is coming out of that process in the gas than is going in in the form of electricity.
		That's a preliminary assessment.
		So as strange as it sounds, since coal fusion we know is real, it is not out of the question that some of these very simple systems like carbon arcs underwater themselves are producing anomalous energy.
		We have seen excellent evidence that the carbon arcs are producing transmuted elements, so we have to watch them very carefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They all sound very similar.
		In other words, you have a process, you have more energy than you should have.
		Nobody can figure out where it comes from.
		If I had to make a bet, I'd be betting that it's all coming from the same source.
		Which, of course, I have no idea what it is, but perhaps Richard Hoagland does.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Well, it might be related.
		Richard Hoagland, I know a good friend of mine is of the opinion that it is some kind of hyperdimensional, or I would call it zero-point energy source.
		Exactly.
		It may be.
		My own feeling is that it could well be that the zero-point energy is somehow mediating these nuclear reactions.
		It may be the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But what we have to get absolutely clear in people's minds is theories are wonderful and interesting, but the most important thing of all is the reality of the experiments and the reality of the commercialization.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That's the key.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Maloff.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, this is Chris in Fairbanks, Alaska.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Chris.
unidentified		I'll be seeing that package I was talking to you about later on this month.
		All right.
		And my questions are, Dr. Mallow, are there any books or information that we can research to learn more about this so we can conduct experiments on our own?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How about his website, for one?
unidentified		Okay.
		And can we write to you and have you, you know, we got an idea, we're working on it.
		Can we write to you and similar to that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, all right.
		Yeah, let's do that.
		We're at the end of the time anyway.
		Doctor, how would you like people to communicate?
		Email, writing, calling, what?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Oh, everything.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		But let's give a post office box out, if you don't mind.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't mind.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Okay, it's post office box 2816 in Concord, New Hampshire, 03302.
		But of course, we also have a fax, which is 603-224-5975.
		I'm glad to try to answer your questions or send you information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That would be P.O. Box 2816 in Concord, New Hampshire, 03302.
		And your fax number is area code 603-224-5975, correct?
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and everybody listening should be watching ABC's Good Morning America as they're going to bring out a water heater that's been operating now for some months using cold fusion.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		That is correct.
		Absolutely amazing.
		It is going to happen.
		We'll just put the little caveat on that, of course, you know, TV schedules are subject to change, but we have had no information that it will not be today.
		We were told that it was going to be today, and I trust that it will be.
		But if by some remote chance it's not a good idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It all depends on the news.
		Doctor, I thank you.
		It has been a wonderful time on the air, and we will have you back again.
eugene mallove ▲ ● ▼		Thank you so much, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night.
		That's Dr. Eugene Maloff, editor-in-chief of Infinite Energy Magazine.
		They are not minor stakes, are they?
		Well, I thank you all, and in some markets, we will be back with more in a moment.
		In other markets, it's good night.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		CBC.
		I feel the moment I love it.
		Take all the good way Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Here again, Art Bell.
		Never hesitate to become the favorite one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Open lines, just ahead.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
unidentified		I'm trying to return to some secret place to fly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Isn't it funny how old songs come back to haunt you?
unidentified		Watching your soul motion as you turn me in the air Would you like to take her breath away?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know how.
unidentified		Take her breath a breath away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we are going to open line to the yo now.
		Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
		It's up to you.
		So if you have something on your mind, that is what this hour is going to be devoted to.
		Tomorrow night, we're going to be talking to Jim Mars, who has authored a very, very controversial book called Alien Agenda.
		I'm sure that many of you have heard about it.
		If not, you certainly will.
		Tomorrow night, you're not going to want to miss that.
		Jim Mars, an Alien Agenda.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, sir.
unidentified		How are you today?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
unidentified		I have to apologize for my pick of Silver Charm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you missed that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But true to form, I didn't go bet, so ha ha ha ha.
unidentified		Well, I think that the other horse cheated anyway.
unidentified		The illegal drafting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was the other horse's name?
unidentified		Touch gold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Touch gold, that's it.
unidentified		Cheated drafting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
unidentified		Drafting around the corner there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't win them all.
unidentified		But my unofficial prediction that I had on your prediction show, my real prediction is number 71, Which hasn't occurred yet, but will.
		My unofficial prediction, excuse me, I'm having trouble speaking this morning.
		My unofficial prediction was that you would be simulcast on TV, and na na na na na, you are now.
		Because if you're all, well, hey, hey, hey, don't even hurt me, Bubba.
		You know, I got it.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		We will review that one, of course, at the end of the year.
		Simulcast on TV.
		Not quite simulcast, but it's pretty damn close.
		Close enough to call that a ding-ding-ding ding.
		No question about it.
		It is the cams that I have set up in here.
		It was kind of a joint effort.
		Keith Rowland acquired some software.
		I had the capture cards and the video and all the rest of it.
		I got it set up with a sequencer.
		As a matter of fact, I've got a little Chiron generator that I'm going to get attached to all this in the next week or so.
		And we're going to keep expanding the capability.
		And the Chiron generator will allow me to put little messages up there in the photograph for you.
		So I'm going to have more fun with this than anybody ought to be allowed to have.
		It is kind of neat.
		There's no question about it.
		This technology is nothing short of absolutely amazing.
		If you go to my website, there I will be doing my radio program.
		Now, for how long this will be interesting, I don't know.
		Frankly, whether I would be interested in watching some guy do a radio program, I don't know.
		I can't tell you that I would.
		It's just something that we are trying.
		And we're always trying new things.
		And I think when you stop trying new things, you begin to atrophy.
		So I'm all for it.
		And we will continue to use it for as long as you like it.
		And we will continue, no doubt, to improve it.
		And one day, yes, I'm sure the web will deliver real-time video along with the audio.
		West of the Rockies, you're on there.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, this is Julie from Washington State.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Julie.
unidentified		Hi, how are you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fine.
unidentified		I was curious, as I was listening the other night when you had the guy on about the reversals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I was wondering possibly when he might be back on because we were listening, and I was absolutely baffled by some of the stuff that was on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we just had him on, so I can't answer that question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, David will be back, but I can't give you a date now.
unidentified		You can't give me a date now, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just had him on.
unidentified		I know, but it was just, I don't know.
unidentified		Some of the reversals and stuff that he had on from NASA was quite interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting?
unidentified		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would use a different word.
		But yes, it was.
		And yes, he'll be back.
		That was probably his fourth or fifth appearance on the program.
unidentified		Really?
unidentified		I just now, actually, I just now heard about it, and I just was listening, and it struck me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand.
unidentified		Yes.
unidentified		So I would very much like to hear him again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, your request is registered.
unidentified		Okie-dokie.
unidentified		Well, thanks very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, thank you.
		Take care.
		David John Oates.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		Did you guys get that email I sent you on a parody of you and the Lord's Prayer?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Now, I haven't looked at my email.
		I didn't have time before I went on the air, so I'm sure it's awaiting you.
unidentified		Right, okay.
		I wanted to say hi to you this morning.
		I'm trying to log back on the internet to get listen to your show right now, and I can't log on, so that's why I'm trying to call you to the sheriff.
		I'll try to log back on so I can hear you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Bye.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Take care.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		KQMS, Reading, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There you are.
unidentified		Here I am.
		Hey, you know, just for that guy that picked Silver Charm and blew it, because I know he's listening, this is the quickening.
		Anything could happen.
		You could show up to my house for dinner.
		Anyways, did you watch the news, NBC News?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Last night.
		Let me see.
		Did I?
		No, I think I watched CNN last night.
unidentified		Well, Tom Brokaw was interviewing some guy and he was making comments about racism and how we should conduct ourselves in American society and stuff like that.
		And actually, he really pissed me off because I can't...
		One of the things he said was that we should not be proud of our race and that it's wrong.
		And you know what?
		Ancestor worship is part of my spiritual heritage.
		So how can I not be proud of my race?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure they're exactly the same thing.
unidentified		Well, you know, I understand the gist of what he's saying, but he's full of people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I understand what he's saying, too, and he's full of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no problem.
unidentified		You know what?
		You know what?
		Look at all there's millions of kinds of species of animals.
		Don't you think humans are the same?
		There's all kinds of different humans.
		Big deal.
		You know, and I'm really tired of people trying to tell me how to think.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, me too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And actually, I don't listen to them anymore, and I suggest to you the same thing.
unidentified		Well, okay.
unidentified		You know, I'm so glad you had Stan Tannon on last night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wasn't he good?
unidentified		The night before, was it last night?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely awesome.
unidentified		Yes, he's absolutely awesome.
		I can't believe all this hoopla is coming out about a code being in the Bible, because lots of people have known it for thousands of years.
		Well, again...
		Not exactly Jumontria, but...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, I want to say this.
		Thank you.
		I want to say that if there is a code in the Bible and everybody seems to agree there is, then it seems to me that that code would be something far more profound than some sort of predictive Edgar Casey type thing where we will get the name or find out that somebody is going to be assassinated at some future date.
		That the Bible and a code in it would be far more profound.
		And without going into all the details of that program, you should get it on tape, by the way.
		Oh, yes.
		By the way, with respect to Mr. Tennant's program last night or our guest tonight or any other program we do with a guest, you can get a copy of it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yeah, I just had one quick comment and a discussion point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
unidentified		First of all, I think we should do a reverse speech on JC.
unidentified		You had or have him on as a guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I did that once, and we've got an hour of tape on JC, and I've had so many requests that maybe I'll send it off to David.
unidentified		Okay, and second of all, you had a guest on the other night when you did your kind of impromptu witch night thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
unidentified		And the doctor, I believe it was, at the end of the night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		He's completely wrong.
unidentified		there are no repercussions from casting curses.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now you're...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But, I mean, you might say that today, and tomorrow you walk across the road and you're flattened by an 18-wheeler.
unidentified		Well, still, yeah, but seven years now it's been going on.
		I think I would have seen something by this point.
		I tend to think that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You slammed a curse on somebody?
unidentified		Oh, many.
		Many, many, many.
		Many?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nothing bad has ever happened?
unidentified		Well, my long-distance phone goes a little bit high sometimes.
		Other than that, nothing really.
		I believe what happens is when you allow yourself to feel guilt about what you've done, it kind of brings it back on you like a psychic boomerang.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, but like candid camera when you least expect it.
unidentified		Well, we shall see, I suppose.
unidentified		Uh-huh.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll look forward to hearing from you on a regular basis, and if I don't, I'll assume the worst.
unidentified		That's no problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Bye.
		Take care.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		Let me get the radio.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Turn that sucker off.
		And tell us where you are calling from.
unidentified		This is Dan.
		I'm calling from Texas.
		How are you today?
		Okay.
		I had several just quick points.
		On the cold fusion guest that you had tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		The radioactive material, there are other nuclear reactions that go on besides just the fast nuclear reaction.
		That's what you get in fission.
		And they've had several incidences of nuclear fizzles where you almost have a critical mass.
		And all you're doing when you have fission is you get enough of the material together that it dissolves itself from its own radiations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		It's a chain reaction within it.
		And it's entirely likely that at the subatomic level, there's a lot of things that make up the atom.
		There's this strange number and all kinds of things that we don't know about.
		Well, we know about, but we don't understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, reactions taking place between elements that we just simply don't understand yet.
unidentified		And what you may have there is it's changing because of some reaction that we don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		Right.
		Having said all that, at the end of the day, if they found something that is practical and can be used and can replace this fossil fuel we're burning now and we don't investigate it, we're out of our minds.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Moreover, if they can prove that a high-level nuclear waste can be literally eaten alive and we don't pursue it, we're out of our minds.
unidentified		One thing I'd like to know from the guest, sorry I didn't get on while he was still there, was what are they finding that it's turning into?
unidentified		Because when radiation, when a new product decays, it turns into something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He talked about helium-3 and 4.
unidentified		Well, that was in the fusion process.
unidentified		That would be generated from the hydrogen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Cold fusion, yeah.
unidentified		But I was wondering what the uranium and thorium that he was talking about being, the radiation decrease?
unidentified		I was wondering what that was decaying into, whether it's turning...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry we didn't ask that.
unidentified		Well, maybe he'll be on again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, take care.
		Maybe they don't understand the full process or how that high-level stuff is being converted and into what.
		Yes, good question.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Morning, I'm Stephen Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Steve.
unidentified		How are you doing this morning?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Steve.
unidentified		That's good.
		Listen, I missed this reversal guy.
		You can tell me on the air after I hang up.
		I don't even know what it was about.
		And I want to ask you this, being earthquake conscious, I haven't heard from Gordon.
		What's cooking with him?
		Are you going to have him on the show again?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's in, I'm not sure what the right word is, a sabbatical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		I see.
unidentified		Okay, just checking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, just answering then.
		And with regard to the reversal show, that was a five-hour program involving reversals of the two NASA representatives that we had here and Victor.
		And I could not possibly cover all there would be to say, so I suggest you get a tape of that show.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art.
		Thank you very much for having show after show of uplifting guests, truly.
		And I think that it's a fantastic book that you wrote, and it seems to me that the convergence between all the things that are possible and all the things that are also possible in the negative are so bewildering that I wonder if you ever read Heinlein's story of the year of the jackpot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		In the old galaxy magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, absolutely.
unidentified		Wasn't that kind of a wonderful story?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I still, you know, I hearken back, thank you, to something I said earlier tonight in passing.
		Of all places on the travel channel, yesterday, they said, think about it, it was exactly 66 years from the moment the Wright brothers flew their first airplane,
		glider, or airplane, whatever you want to call it, took flight and got above Earth until man walked on the moon in the first Apollo mission to the moon.
		66 years.
		Now you think really hard about that as we discuss things quickening.
		Think about that.
		66 years.
		Compare that to the progress of all years prior to that.
		And now try and project where we will be 66 years from now.
		Totally mind-boggling.
		And since he mentioned my book, thank you.
		If you would like an autographed copy of the Quickening, we are coming down toward the end of the line.
		All I can assure you from day to day now, and I will give you that assurance today, is if you get your order in, you will get an autographed copy.
		Do not wait.
		The number to call is 1-800-864-7991.
		That's 1-800-864-7991.
		Continue trying to get through until you do.
		East of the Rockies, whoops.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, Ert.
		How are you tonight?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Feeling pretty good, huh?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can I do for you?
unidentified		Out here in California.
		Yes.
		Well, I was hoping to help you out a little bit.
		I've been listening to your shows, and they've really been working out well.
		Except the thing about this is, when some of your guests get challenged, you know, with ideas which are very important, it's very important to experiment with.
		these type of ideas.
		Well, for example, you take an idea like space people.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Space people?
unidentified		Well, space machines, spaceships, space people.
		You see, when they get challenged, the idea that there has never really been any kind of diggings, we've got diggings that are bringing men up from millions of years ago or whatever.
		In all the archaeological studies, with all these spacecrafts, with all the satellites, with everything coming in, we have not got one single space object, outer space object except a meteor, anywhere in any museum that you have pictures of things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, how do you know we don't?
		You say that.
		On display we don't.
		That's true in public.
		Does somebody have them?
		Does the government have them?
		That's a different question.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Call our bell pull free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC radio network to the phones west of the Rockies.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're hi.
		Hey, how's it going, Eric?
		It's going, sir.
		Turn it off, actually.
		All the way off.
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the way off, actually.
unidentified		It's off and off.
unidentified		It was just a little bit out of reach.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, go right ahead, sir.
unidentified		Okay, do you realize this year following the movie 2001 how 9000 is supposed to be built?
unidentified		Or next year, 98?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't know that.
unidentified		Ted, I got a question for you.
		Oh, gosh, I lost my translation.
		Oh, I hate what it happened.
		Okay, no, I'm back.
		Have you done the experiment with the Morris the Cat calling from Seattle, Washington on Como 1000?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have I done what?
unidentified		Calling on Como 1000, Morris the Cat.
		That's my lesson.
		That's my first time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what you're talking about, sir.
unidentified		Now, the experiment you proposed where you had everyone think on the UFO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, we have not done that yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We have done that yet, and I guarantee you we are going to do it.
unidentified		Okay, well, I want to propose you an interesting thought.
unidentified		Now, I'm an individual who does not believe in aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's cool.
unidentified		But the next time you do that, I want to propose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't, You know, I don't believe in them either.
unidentified		Oh, really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, really.
		I don't believe in them.
		I mean, that indicates faith.
		And I don't make a leap of faith until I see one, touch one, shake hands with one, say, you know, how's an Andromeda or wherever you're from?
		No, I don't believe in one.
		I am interested, and I suggest to you that it's more probable than not that they do exist.
		But be careful about those words.
unidentified		I know, but for myself, I've got to see it to believe it.
unidentified		I follow that old train of thought.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we agree then.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		But whenever you do decide to do that, I want to propose an experiment, an actual alien abduction by me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you want to be abducted?
unidentified		Yeah, just for sure, because I don't want to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why go to such trouble?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, why not just have them come down and hover over the space needle for a while?
unidentified		Wouldn't that be cool?
unidentified		No, because following every movie, every book that we supposedly have when they come down, there's always someone that provokes them, pisses them off, shoots them, kills them, or as Independence Day happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've already had calls from people who said, I saw a saucer and I shot at it.
unidentified		Right.
		I say it's still too far from it.
		I mean, even if they were to shoot at it, you know, that'd be like shooting a spitball at a missile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's always been my view, too.
		A stupid thing to do.
		If you see an anomalous object, a saucer, or something that appears to be defying gravity, or something that appears to be not fully visible in our dimension, shooting at it is not your best first choice, or should not be.
		Because assuming they have the technology to be doing what they appear to be doing, you don't want to get them angry.
		Basic stuff.
		First time caller line, you're on the air, huh?
unidentified		Right.
		Hello, Art.
		Hello.
		Been listening to your show about six months.
		I'm in Denver, Colorado.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Outside the Aurora, Homo Star Trek Convention.
		But this fuel thing, this cold fusion that you had on tonight, there was another gentleman I heard here about a year ago.
		He had a fuel called A21, and I heard him on the Chuck Harder show, Freedom Network.
		What he had was a fuel muscle fire, which mixed water and fuel together, which, you know, physically they say it's impossible, but this guy does it with a mulifier.
		And he was working with Caterpillar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But it's not impossible at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Water injection has been long shown to increase fuel efficiency.
unidentified		Right.
		My love is aviation.
		I want to ask you, this happened about six months ago there in your show.
		I was listening back in Canton, Ohio, before I moved out here.
		There was a gentleman called in one night.
		He was a pilot, and he was flying a velocity aircraft and was flying toward Area 51, and he heard the guy shot down.
		Was there anything more that happened on that, or did anyone hear anything more about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nor would you expect to.
unidentified		Any word from Madman Markham?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, and I'm concerned about Madman, seriously concerned.
unidentified		Because all the other people you had on interviewing different shows about time travel, it fell into his category.
unidentified		He was right on the right track.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, he was on a track.
		Anyway, all right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		No, Madman, I have been trying to contact without success, and my level of concern regarding his welfare is rising rapidly.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once, going twice, gone.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, this is Anthony from Los Angeles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Your age, 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can claim that for a few more days.
unidentified		I can claim it for about two more weeks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		I was going to say that two things.
unidentified		The first thing is that you haven't commented on the fifth element.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I haven't seen it yet.
unidentified		Oh, God, it's terrific.
		Is it?
		I've seen it in Piper Le Prices seven times.
		Wow.
		And I'm not a kid.
		But with the kids, I've seen it.
		The other thing I wanted to comment on was Atlas Shrugged.
		Do you remember Rand's story of John Galt?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Isn't that interesting about Cold Fusion?
unidentified		It's like this is the engine that could provide or go someplace and just say, hey, you guys just want to destroy the world by selling arms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're exactly right.
unidentified		Isn't that interesting?
unidentified		Art, I'm glad we both lived this long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Me too.
unidentified		And I loved your book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		Oh, thank you.
		The Quickening, yes.
		That is a good book.
		I sincerely mean it.
		Not just to push my book.
		It's a good book.
		It's an important book.
		A very, very, very important book.
		Please read it.
		Eventually, I suppose, if you cannot afford to buy it, it'll show up in a library.
		It'll show up in a place where you can read it.
		Please read it.
		It really is an important book.
		If you can afford to buy it, the number, you can still get an autograph copy just by calling 1-800-864-7991.
		1-800-864-7991.
		East of the Rockies, you would have been on the air.
		You're a dial tone.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi, yeah.
		This is Dave from Tracy, California.
		Hi, Dave.
		I'm just hoping that this cold fusion technology comes out in time to save our planet as far as the atmosphere goes.
		So do I. And this acid rain and flooding across the Midwest.
		But then our government can't even send out a disaster relief bill.
		So these are the same people who are going to have to fund this project.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
unidentified		I also had one other thing on remote viewing.
		I was reading a talk from Voyage.
		And I was wondering, can they travel back to ancient Egypt and find out how these pyramids were built?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		They can.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I don't know.
unidentified		What does Dr. Courtney Brown, or what's his opinion on how they were built?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea.
		Dr. Courtney Brown is a person I have not talked with in some time and will not until the subject of our last conversation becomes cleared up.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Art.
unidentified		This is Mike from Glendale.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Mike.
unidentified		I was wondering if we could shift back quickly to last week you had an expert witchcraft person on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, in the last half hour.
unidentified		And I'm sure he knows his stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My only disagreement with him is that I had a lady on.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry.
		That's right.
		That's correct.
		With her, I'm sorry.
		My disagreement would be that belief in spells, and you answered this question, in my view, only serves to, one, empower that person who's been harassing you, and two, as well as opening up psychological problems on yourself and bringing you down to their level.
		And I think that atheist and Christian truths, science and God, state that whatever that person sent you, whether it be a letter, a doll, etc., it will always belong to them and not to you.
		And rather than engage in an arms race of upgrading salts and etc., that you just trust the good Lord that you believe in to take care of business, and who knows, maybe that good Lord will pay them a visit with a ski mask and high-powered rifles and kick in some doors or something.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, maybe so.
		But on the other hand, I have always felt that the good Lord helps those who help themselves.
		So when I have a score to settle.
		Well, you know, I really don't want to get back into that again, but I don't depend on karmic solutions.
		I don't depend on spells.
		I'm curious about them.
		I don't depend on magic.
		I depend on my own action.
		And so if I have a score to settle, I settle it.
		And I hope that I'm doing the righteous thing.
		And I depend on the old God helps those who help themselves.
		He does not, I think, at least the kind of God that I think about, expect you to sit on your butt and request for him to do what you should be doing for yourself.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
		Turn your radio off, please.
		That's good.
		Are you there?
		No, I'm somewhere else.
		Where in the hell are you?
		Here and there.
		Or as Russia would say, as long as I'm there, it's okay.
unidentified		Can I tell you where I've been?
		I've been San Diego.
		I've been in Augusta, Maine.
		I've been in Louisiana.
		I've been in Boston, Massachusetts.
		I've been every place in this country, and I've not been able to get in touch with you until, what, right now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are less amazing things in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here you are.
unidentified		I want to tell you one thing.
		Number one, I bought both you books, and I like the first one.
		The second one is nice, and I'm still reading it.
		The first one, I got the first one after the second one, and you know what?
		I love you, dude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
unidentified		I'm Al from Phoenix.
unidentified		I'm in Phoenix right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're in Phoenix.
		Sounds like you're a traveling man.
		Well, I appreciate that.
		The first one, which you said you got after the second one, which you're reading now, was an autobiography with a lot of photographs, and it was for those who are curious about me.
		It was called The Art of Talk.
		That was the first book, and by the way, it is still available.
		So if you want insights as to who I am and why I do what I do, that book will give them to you because it was a totally honest book.
		So is the second one.
		They're very different animals.
		The first book about me, the second book about us.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hello, Art.
unidentified		This is Jim Collins from Kenai Country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		K-E-N-I Anchorage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You bet.
unidentified		Hey, a couple of things.
		One, bismuth magnesium.
		And also, I understand you had a cold fusion discussion on earlier that I missed.
		I wondered if you'd been talking to her about Ed Storms.
		About who?
		Ed Storms, he's a retired chemist from Los Alamos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, it was not a she, it was a he that I had on.
unidentified		Well, Ed, yeah, would fit that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Secondly, I've never heard of the person you're talking about, so the answer is no.
unidentified		Oh, I'm sorry about that.
		Anyway, he has quite a bibliography of the published materials.
		But to get to my main point, I was looking at F.S. Williams' Michael Faraday bibliography, and that led me to the experimental researches in electricity and magnetism and so forth.
		And Faraday discovered the principles of diamagnet, magnetic materials and the properties they have.
		And what he would do would suspend the item that he was investigating on a silk thread.
		He had a huge electromagnet he made from a large anchor chain link that he had.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, all of this to try and determine a master weight change.
unidentified		Well, no, he didn't do that.
		He was surprised with the diamagnetism because unlike paramagnetism, he couldn't induce a magnetic property.
		However, it would go to southwest, northeast, or northwest, southeast, and Not be any kind of polarity, but would always go diagonal to the lines of force in the electromagnet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, that's interesting.
		But again, if you're experimenting with diamagnetic or anti-magnetic materials, or what materials you believe to have those properties, you are trying to measure or need to measure either a reduction in mass or weight, which would indicate a resistance to, no matter how you view gravity as a push or a pull, a resistance to or a shield from it.
		Hence, you would look for a change in the weight or the mass of the object suspended.
		First time caller line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Going once, going twice, going east of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi, Eric.
unidentified		This is Bob from northeastern Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Bob.
unidentified		I was wondering if there's been any talk about General Parton's bomb damage assessment of the Oklahoma City bombing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, months and months and months ago, yes, there was a very great deal of it, sure.
unidentified		Yeah, okay.
unidentified		Because it seems like a very plausible theory, you know, based on his analysis, and he seems to be generally qualified.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a theory.
unidentified		Okay, thanks, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're welcome, sir.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
unidentified		This is Dan from Fairbanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Dan.
unidentified		I just want to say I got your book, and I read it, and I thought it was great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		You're referring to the latest?
		Yes.
		The Quickening.
unidentified		Good.
		Yeah, it was a real easy book to read.
		Good.
		I have to thank you for turning me on to several good authors.
		I've probably only read half a dozen books or less in my lifetime, and I've probably read that many in the last year.
		Oh, my.
		All of them were guests of yours, and all of the books I've read have been very interesting.
		So I just want to say thanks for having people on that make it interesting to listen to and to read their information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		That's what makes it worth doing.
		And that is why I continue to do it.
		Sometimes it is trivial.
		Sometimes it's fun.
		Sometimes it's entertaining.
		Sometimes it's serious.
		But it's always different.
		I try not to do the same thing again and again and again.
		It would be harder for me, in fact, than you.
		You, you can turn off the radio, turn the dial, go listen to something else.
		Me, I've got to be here five hours every night.
		It would be tedious indeed if I always knew what was going to happen.
		I'm glad I don't.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes.
		I've got a lot of interference.
		Maybe it's clear up a little bit now.
		I was a while ago at an Artfell show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You were on earlier?
unidentified		No, no, no, no, no, no.
		No.
		A fellow called in about fusion material.
		Yes.
		And I was wondering to see if it's possible to sell out or would he be wanting to get release of information that he was talking about.
		I didn't catch too much of the program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You missed it.
unidentified		Very interesting.
unidentified		I didn't know if I could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was very interesting.
		What I would suggest you do, sir, is watch Good Morning America this morning.
		Set your VCR, whatever.
		There will be a demonstration of a water heater that has been operating for some number of months now with a cold fusion process.
		In addition, there will be, it is my understanding, a demonstration of high-level nuclear materials eroding or decaying, if you will, at an accelerated rate in conjunction with a cold fusion process.
		We'll see.
		Welcome to the Rockies.
		You're on?
unidentified		Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Cherry Lake, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How you doing?
unidentified		And up in near Calastoga.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir?
unidentified		There's been some wells, and I believe...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Contaminated with MPB.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're aware of it.
unidentified		You are?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		Yeah.
		This Lake Tahoe, you know, that's sort of...
		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we've got a lot of problems down here, too, with Lake Mead.
		And a fish that are deformed.
		Harp, to be specific.
		Wildguard line, you're on the air.
		Hello.
		Hey, Art.
unidentified		Jerry, up here in Como Country.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Turning my radio down.
		Looks like we're coming to the end.
		A couple of things.
		Close encounters of the third kind.
		Remember the hand motions they were making?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
unidentified		That had something to do, I'll bet you, with what Stan was talking about last night.
		Ooh.
		Also, on the Oprah show today, we will have...
		Listen to me.
		There's going to be the guy who wrote the article that Stan was talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, the Bible codes.
		All right, listen, that's it.
		Tell everybody good night.
unidentified		Oh, from the high desert, and from up here in the North Country.
unidentified		Good night, all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.

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