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June 10, 1997 - Art Bell

03:12:42

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Dr. Eugene Mallove - Cold Fusion and Free Energy

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	so so
	from the high desert to great american southwest i bid you all good evening or a good morning
	as the case may be.
	And welcome to another edition of Coast to Coast AM, actually, from the Hawaiian Antiche Island Chains, out west, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, just about all points in between, south into South America, north all the way to the pole.
	This is indeed Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Art Bell, great to be here, and we are going to scoop ABC's Good Morning America This morning, or this evening, as the time zone may dictate.
	In the morning, it is my understanding, save a change, that there is going to be a demonstration, finally, finally, ladies and gentlemen, of an over-unity process.
	A process that yields more energy out than goes in.
	That's what over-unity is.
	Some call it free energy.
	Some call it over unity.
	You get the idea.
	In other words, very little to zero power in and many, many watts out.
	As a matter of fact, the working prototype water heater by Clean Energy Technologies, Inc.
	is going to be profiled sometime between 7 and 9 a.m.
	tomorrow morning, more likely close to 7 in your respective time zones.
	And I have been screeching about this for I don't know how long.
	And this morning, you're going to find out all about it, before ABC's Good Morning America tells the nation about it.
	Because I have Dr. Eugene Maloff, who is Editor-in-Chief of ColdFusion Technology Magazine, with me.
	In a moment, I will tell you more about Dr. Maloff, and we'll find out what's really going on.
	So, if you've been curious, about this whole free energy field.
	We've got somebody qualified to speak about it coming up in a moment.
	All right.
	A couple of announcements and then away we go.
	One, I received this from a man at sea, Gus Darnell at sea off the Washington coast.
	Art, regarding the weather, check this out.
	Super Typhoon Nestor, N-E-S-T-O-R, 18.4 north, 147.6 east.
	Maximum winds right now, 201 miles per hour.
	I've been a seagoing radio op for 27 years.
	Never heard of it.
	Captain been at sea over 20.
	Never heard of it.
	That is from John.
	Actually, I guess sent by John.
	So thank you, John.
	That is a monster typhoon, and there's beginning to be some action in the Atlantic as well.
	I think clearly, again, you don't have to be a candidate for employment at NASA to understand our weather is undergoing a rather radical change, quickening, if you will, and we'll get to that later on.
	I do want to tell you that the days of my signing or autographing first edition copies of The Quickening, my book about this process, and so much more, are coming now to an end.
	And as long as you order now, you will get an autographed copy of my book, but I'm giving you the little rattlesnake early warning here that soon it will not be available in that form, autographed.
	So if that is of concern, or you want an autographed copy, You need to order now.
	It's 1-800-864-7991.
	That's 1-800-864-7991, and that number is available now.
	seven nine nine one that's one eight hundred six four
	seven nine nine one and uh... that number is available now uh... with regard to the cruises one to alaska one to
	egypt and the pyramids and so much more
	uh... if you wish to uh... a check with uh...
	but to see if there are any openings and they may there may not be at the moment
	they may be booked.
	I'm not exactly sure, but there have been, from time to time, one or two openings.
	You can call... You can call the cruise company, and you know what?
	As usual... Oh, I've got it, good.
	Thank goodness, here it is.
	You can call in the morning at 8 o'clock Pacific Time, 1-800-633-2788.
	Let me give that last one again.
	It's probably the one you ought to call at 8 o'clock.
	Alaska coming in August and Egypt coming in October.
	1-800-848-7120.
	All right.
	one against probably the one you ought to call it eight o'clock.
	Alaska coming in August and Egypt coming in October 1-800-848-7120. All right now, since 1995
	Dr. Malov has been the editor-in-chief and publisher of the bi-monthly infinite energy magazine
	Cold Fusion and new energy technology based in Concord, New Hampshire with a research lab and
	publishing facility in Bow, New Hampshire.
	He has, now listen carefully, a Master of Science degree, a Bachelor of Science degree in Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
	And he has a science doctorate in environmental health sciences.
	That would be air pollution control engineering from Harvard.
	Wow.
	With broad experience in high technology engineering at companies including Hughes Research Labs, TASC, the Analytical Science Corporation, and MIT Lincoln Laboratory.
	He has also had extensive hands-on experience in lab settings, most recently in ColdFusion.
	In 91, he worked as a consultant to U.S.
	corporations doing and planning R&D in ColdFusion.
	He is the author of three science books for the general public, including the Pulitzer-nominated book on ColdFusion, entitled Fire from Ice, Searching for the Truth Behind the ColdFusion furor, and oh, a furor it has been, eh?
	He's taught science journalism at MIT and at Boston University.
	He was chief science writer at the MIT News Office when ColdFusion erupted.
	Good word.
	Prior to that, he was a top science writer and broadcaster with the Voice of America in Washington, D.C., also wrote Science and Technology articles for magazines and newspapers, including MIT Technology Review and the Washington Post.
	That's a lot of qualification.
	Doctor, welcome to the program.
	Delighted to be on, Art.
	Thank you for having me.
	It is indeed.
	I know about 20 after 2 in the morning back there.
	Oh, yes, indeed.
	Dark and conquered New Hampshire.
	But this is a very, very timely interview in that finally tomorrow morning, A national network is going to show the nation something that has over unity gain.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	They will profile, as you said, the technology of a company that is one of the companies working in coal fusion, clean energy technologies.
	They have a prototype water heating unit.
	And I can't quite buy it at Kmart yet, but there will be on national television.
	By the way, they have, to be absolutely clear about this and accurate, back in February 7th, 1996, on both Good Morning America and Nightline, they also profiled the same company with their earlier technology.
	They also did Ponds and Fleischmann.
	But here we have a more advanced stage of development that along the schedules go according to plan, should appear on Good Morning America this June 11th.
	This is not the Patterson technology, is it?
	Yes, it is actually.
	But to be accurate, I don't know the latest configuration of their water heating unit.
	The Patterson configuration to which you refer is a patented process It must be called cold fusion, even though that is not referred to in the patent.
	That part of the patent office was rather generous to allow that patent through, because all the other patents, including the Ponson-Fleischmann patent, are being outrageously blocked by rather arrogant officials who don't believe in data at the patent office.
	Patterson has these coated beads with metal.
	All right, let me read you what I've got here from the media alert release.
	It says, the working prototype water heater by Clean Energy Technologies, Inc.
	will be profiled.
	According to company sources, the device, which does not use Dr. Patterson's patented coated bead technology, but instead a new method developed by the company, has been producing continuously several hundred watts Yes.
	That is accurate, according to my conversations with the head of Clean Energy Technologies, or CETI, as it's said.
	They've got a twist to this.
	I'm not sure exactly what it is, but my understanding is it has something to do with Instead of just a static cell, it is something where water flows through and gets heat from this unusual co-fusion process, whatever the co-fusion process may be.
	But this process, this newer technology that they are bringing out, flows through piping and maintains a very extraordinary heating of water to the extent that it was stated as hundreds of watts.
	There's no particular reason in my mind to think that it couldn't be scaled to almost any level.
	All right, well, what I was trying to be clear on here is Dr. Patterson's technology, the patented coded bead technology, apparently is not used.
	So what is it then?
	A sort of a A modification of Dr. Patterson's patent, or does this still actually qualify under his patent?
	I'm confused.
	My working assumption, not having seen the device myself, we'll wait to see it on ABC, is that it uses particulates of some kind, that is, small particles.
	Could be a variant of that bead, but nonetheless not in a static mode.
	In other words, not held together in a tight, small place, like a few cubic centimeters, such as the Patterson cell normally has, but perhaps these beads or some other particulate flowing through in an unusual manner in piping and still producing this continuous supply of heat.
	That is my latest understanding.
	But you know, I must say, Patterson cell is by no means the only co-fusion cell Let's back up a little bit, and let me ask you first of all, what is cold fusion?
	Assume that you're talking to somebody who has heard the phrase cold fusion, but has no idea what the hell it is.
	is not so regularly with all right let's back up a little bit and and let me ask
	you first of all what is cold fusion assume that you're talking to somebody
	you know who doesn't it has heard the phrase cold fusion but has no idea what
	the hell it is uh...
	what is it let's go back to the uh... first
	episode on slide Everyone knows that PONS, not everybody, but most people recall, if they're old enough, that on March 23, 1989, there was an amazing announcement coming out of the state of Utah in Salt Lake City.
	PONS, Drs.
	PONS and Fleischmann, very respected chemists at the time, and still in our view of course, Made an announcement, which was widely carried on the news media, that they were getting more heat energy out of a cell of water, it was called heavy water at the time, part of all water, than the electricity put in.
	They were using heavy water, which as I say is part of all water, one out of every 6,500 atoms of ordinary Hydrogen in water is a heavy form, and so that's called heavy water when you get it all together.
	It's real cheap, and it's, of course, very abundant on the planet.
	And it's not radioactive.
	They said, look, we have a little cell with heavy water and a salt that allows electricity to go through, and there's a palladium metal electrode, and there's another electrode called a platinum electrode.
	We pass the current through, we get heat out, We look at this heat that's coming out, we measure it very carefully, and we get so much energy coming out of this cell that it cannot possibly be an ordinary chemical reaction.
	It must be nuclear, they said.
	How is one able to measure the fact, you measure units of heat energy versus the amount of current that you're passing through the device?
	Right.
	Watts of electrical power in, as a power measurement, Versus, let's say, watts or BTUs or any heat unit you want coming out.
	Now they were getting elevations in that over unity, in other words, more out in terms of heat units than electric units going in.
	And that is not an ordinary chemical reaction.
	You know, lighting a match from a matchbook will in effect do that too, you realize.
	You just put a little bit of energy in, and you trigger a reaction that produces a lot more energy out.
	Except in a chemical reaction, like a match, or a candle, or a log, it's self-limited.
	You know, it just produces a certain amount of energy, and then it goes out.
	Then it goes out, right.
	Well, in the case of a cold fusion cell, it doesn't go out.
	It goes for weeks, or months, and in some cases, for the better part of a year, okay, without stopping.
	And the question was, even to Ponson-Fleischmann then, What is causing this heat?
	Now of course the establishment didn't even accept the fact, nor should they have on day one, that there was more heat coming out by far than electricity going in.
	Alright, I'm old enough to remember the announcement.
	And what I remember following it was a whole group of institutions across the country trying to replicate, which is science, The experiment they did with very mixed results.
	Some institutions came back and said, yes, we've done it.
	Others have said, uh, it's failed.
	It didn't, it doesn't work.
	And there was a great controversy that ensued.
	Yes, indeed.
	That is exactly what happened.
	It was a tremendous controversy because of the claim that nuclear reactions, potentially nuclear reactions, occurring on a tabletop, uh, was a very shocking Uh, claim to be making.
	Sure.
	If they had not been, by the way, the world-class chemists that they were, Dr. Fleischmann was a fellow of the Royal Society, Stanley Pons was head of the University of Utah Chemistry Department, they wouldn't even have listened to it.
	I mean, it would be the usual crank business, supported by evidence, and that would be the end of it.
	Now, unfortunately, they triggered a worldwide of frenzy of activity indeed to replicate them.
	They sure did.
	Many did.
	Many people rather quickly did replicate their claims.
	All right.
	Doctor, hold it right there and we'll come back and have more time to get into this in great detail.
	So if you really want to understand what's going on with Cold Fusion, keep it right where it is.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-line callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1225.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	It is a completely non-trivial topic.
	We are talking about our future.
	If you look at the pall of air hanging over our cities right now, no matter whether you're right, left, or whatever you are politically, you cannot be happy.
	That pall of air is coming from the use, or some might suggest, misuse of fossil fuels.
	If we don't do something about it, it's going to do something about us.
	And so we're talking about energy, an alternative form of energy, the real thing.
	If you want to really know what's going on, you won't budge from where you are right now.
	Back to Dr. Eugene Malov in a moment.
	Now, back to Eugene Malov.
	And I hope I'm... Am I getting your name correct?
	Is it Maloff?
	Yes, that's a good... That's close.
	Most... Maloff.
	You're right on target, Art.
	All right.
	Good.
	Now, pons and flashmen.
	Here we had the demonstration, then the great controversy, some universities able to replicate, other universities saying they were unable to replicate.
	Yes.
	Where do we go from there?
	Well, again, this was the spring of 1989.
	It seems like a century ago to us in the Cold Fusion War.
	But there it was, March 23rd, 1989, was the beginning of the worldwide race to discover whether or not Bonds and Fleischmann were correct or not.
	They could have been mistaken, because there was a lot of backroom infighting and complex political maneuvering that led to that press conference.
	They themselves did not want the press conference, by the way.
	They wanted to wait another 18 months.
	But due to controversies with another group in the state of Utah, The announcement occurred, for better or worse.
	Was it a race?
	Yes, it was a race for many people to get into it and find out who could be first, to either find out that they were having the correct observation in science, or whether they had made a terrible mistake and should be regarded as somehow fools.
	In any event, the establishment rather quickly, in weeks, came to its own private conclusion.
	They maintained a public veneer of respect for Ponson-Fleischmann for a while, a little grace period.
	They said, well, let's check this out, and then major institutions such as MIT and Caltech and Harwell Laboratory in England were coming to the conclusion rapidly that Ponson-Fleischmann had made a terrible mistake.
	And they wanted to prove to the world that Ponson-Fleischmann should be gotten rid of.
	And, of course, there was this media flurry, a very large media flurry.
	The Cold Fusion story made the cover of Time Newsweek and Businessweek on May 8, 1989.
	Now, the interesting thing is this.
	Many groups did get excess energy, some with difficulty, and even without guidance, People, knowing something about electrochemical systems, were able to see the effect.
	It was weak at that time, it wasn't a major effect, it wasn't as extraordinary as it is today with some of the newer cold fusion systems, but it was there.
	May I ask, were Ponson-Fleischmann at that time giving assistance to those universities trying to replicate the experiment?
	They were giving some assistance.
	The lawyers that were responsible for guiding the way the announcement came out at the University of Utah did, to some extent, tie their hands.
	A lot of this was tied up in patent issues and so forth.
	The university wanted to take some advantage of this, as it is well sure to have.
	If, as a freshman today would say, they did not take care to protect the rights of the University of Utah, they would subsequently have been considered A derelict in duty.
	But they did, in fact, give some assistance, and in point of fact, even in those cases where not much assistance was given, the effect was replicated.
	Now, the high-profile places, such as MIT, Caltech, Harwell Laboratories, and a number of other places that did rather quick work, claimed not to have gotten the effect.
	Now, today, this is of only historic importance, because those high-profile places, their results were very much used by the U.S.
	Department of Energy panel that was set up to investigate this as a certification that this was a terrible mistake.
	All right.
	Doctor, in your best estimation, why did these high-profile universities, why were they unable to replicate the experiment?
	Let's take the three prominent examples that have been used by the Department of Energy, and still used in the mythology against coal fusion, as to what was going on.
	Now in the case of Caltech, they published, the Nate Lewis team published in Nature Magazine extensive reports on their heat measuring experiment.
	It turns out that they published interesting data, very interesting data, except they analyzed it improperly.
	You know, in fact, if you look at it, high school algebra and common sense, when you get down to the nitty-gritty of the complexities, indicate that it's fundamentally improperly analyzed.
	At worst, it's an ambiguous result.
	At best, there was some evidence of excess heat.
	Certainly under no circumstances is that work to be regarded as a definitive negative.
	Now, again, this is all historical.
	All right, well, and I want to hear the history.
	Would you characterize that report?
	As a benign mistake?
	Or otherwise?
	I don't consider it a benign mistake.
	Not when, subsequently to the publication of the Caltech result, several excellent electrochemists and chemists and engineers sent scientific correspondence to Nature magazine asking the ordinary That's a good question.
	Look, we see some fundamental, simple errors in algebra and other things in this report.
	We want to publish our letters that show the error that they have, so that the record can be corrected.
	And Nature Magazine, which was on the warpath against cold fusion at the time... Why?
	Well, there was a brouhaha.
	There was kind of a pack mentality, as so often occurs.
	When a heretical new discovery is launched upon the world.
	Boy, I'll tell you, I have never in my life, scientists are some of the worst feuding bunch of professionals I've ever seen in my whole life.
	They are.
	The problem with scientists, I must say, I consider myself more of an engineer, but a true scientist in spirit, certainly.
	They have a card that says, I am objective, but this is not true at all.
	We know that scientists act according to their emotions, according to their funding sources, according to their worldview of how the universe works.
	That's what was happening.
	And of course, at MIT, where I was, and I had a better insight there, even more outrageous things happened.
	Things that I did not even realize were happening until More than a year went by after the announcement.
	I was the chief science writer at the news office at MIT, responsible for reporting research from MIT, reporting the pro and cons that were going on about cold fusion at MIT.
	Now, their work was reported as negative.
	And in fact, it is not negative.
	To my great dismay, later in my investigation of what was happening, I was skeptical of cold fusion myself in the beginning.
	A year after, I was beginning to believe that it was almost certainly true.
	Two years after the announcement, I said the evidence was overwhelming, and now it's 100% certain.
	But what I saw in the MIT data was outright fudging.
	Now this data was supposedly a fair experiment whereby a heavy water cell, that is a Pons Fleischmann type cell, was compared to one that had ordinary water in it.
	And by the way, this is with their palladium electrodes, so there's no confusion.
	The same thing that Pons and Fleischmann were doing.
	Right.
	They ran 80 hours of results and they had already made various planted news stories in the media against Ponsonfleischmann, and they used the word fraud.
	That began to enter the picture from some of the MIT researchers.
	The allegation you're making right now is every bit as serious.
	It's very serious, because in the summer of 1989, after they had already pretty much gotten rid of Ponsonfleischmann in an outrageous I remember that.
	Oh, I remember.
	Nature went against them.
	Nature Magazine.
	Science went against them.
	The New York Times went against them.
	The Department of Energy, of course, was completely in attack mode at that point.
	And it was almost irretrievable at that point.
	But MIT hadn't even analyzed its data.
	But lo and behold, I have the documents that show on July 10th, 1989, As they were preparing the data for publication on the heat measuring experiment, lo and behold, the Ponson-Fleischmann type part of the experiment that MIT was doing showed a positive result.
	It showed excess heat.
	The ordinary water control experiment showed no excess heat, but three days later, This draft report was significantly modified, and voila!
	The heat had disappeared.
	It was suppressed.
	It was budged.
	Subsequent to that, an excellent MIT graduate, Dr. Mitchell Schwartz, now of Jet Energy Technology, another coal fusion company in the Massachusetts area, Uh, examined it in greater detail and found that the shifting and the fudging was even more egregious than I thought.
	Basically, they had suppressed evidence.
	Now, if they had... This did not prove cold fusion.
	This did not prove it.
	You could not prove cold fusion by one experiment.
	But if you had the results that they had, and they absolutely had these results, in the summer of 1989, of course they had collected it in the spring of 1989, You would have been duty-bound to the world to show this evidence.
	Of course.
	And say, look, there it is.
	Bare minimum, they would have had to do the experiment over again to either get rid of that, to say, well, it was a little mistake on our part, or that there really was something there.
	But instead, defending their position as a $30 million a year recipient of funds from the federal government to do hot fusion, that is to mimic the stars with Thermonuclear reactions inside a high magnetic field.
	Right.
	They wanted to preserve the status quo, and they did just that.
	Oh my God.
	You're telling me that to preserve, it always comes down to money, doesn't it?
	To preserve their funding for a continuation into a look at hot fusion, which is a very expensive hard process.
	They looked at this simple process and, your word, fudged the results to murder Cold Fusion in its cradle.
	Yes, and it's even worse than that, actually, because prior to that, prior to the disaster of fudging data in the summer of 89, and by the way, publishing it in a journal That was edited by a man who was working under one of the Hot Fusion Laboratory people, that is, under the director of the Hot Fusion Laboratory at MIT.
	Talk about peer review, you know, having sort of pressure put on.
	There would be no question that this data was going to be published and certified as some sort of peer-reviewed piece of work.
	You know, it was just incredible, but what they did earlier in the spring of 89 was to tell one of the major newspapers in Boston that they had found evidence of fraudulent activity on the part of Ponson-Fleischmann.
	And this is what happened.
	I well remember the day.
	I was called at midnight by the director of the Plasma Fusion Center, the Hot Fusion Lab at MIT, and he said, CBS News is telling me that the Boston Herald is going to have this story that says, I said that Ponsonfleischmann were possibly guilty of fraud and schlock science.
	Scientific schlock.
	And of course, at the time of being green and not knowing what was really going on, I respected this professor.
	I thought that he was probably correct and the Boston Herald was misinterpreting what he had said.
	He wanted me to issue a retraction over the AP, UPI, and so forth, which I did, of course, not knowing any better at the time.
	I assumed he was correct and was not deceiving me.
	It turned out that he was not correct.
	It turns out that the very words he used against Ponsonfleischmann to plant a story against him and set the F word in motion, the fraud word, became very popular then.
	This report of his behavior was wrong, and he almost got a reporter fired.
	If that reporter had not had an audio tape of his interview with the director of the Plasma Fusion Center at MIT, that reporter would have been fired on the spot.
	That was the opening shot, I would say, of the war against Ponson Fleischmann.
	You think began not because of some deep dark oil company conspiracy.
	Not at all.
	But rather a war over funding for alternative energy, hot fusion versus cold fusion.
	Absolutely.
	The hot fusion program got then from the federal government over 350 billion dollars This is magnetic hot fusion, not to say there isn't other hot fusion, which is the laser inertial hot fusion, which now they want more and more billions of dollars for that, but that's a weapons-related project.
	It can't honestly be sold as energy.
	Well, it'll probably get the money.
	It will.
	But back then, the hot fusion people at MIT and Princeton and elsewhere were deathly afraid That the federal government was going to shift just a little bit of that money, maybe $25 million was being talked about in Congress, to investigate coal fusion.
	And they didn't want that to happen.
	They were terrified that their system, which they'd been working on for decades, would collapse.
	You have to understand, Art... But I mean, we're talking about scientists who are supposed to be dedicated to the truth and finding out what's real and what's not.
	What's possible, what's not, what can be replicated, and what cannot.
	And you use the word fudge.
	There's lots of other words I could think of that would be more appropriate.
	I would characterize it, and I will characterize it, as utter fraud.
	And in fact, the fraud magnifies itself as every year goes by for the following reason.
	In the beginning, they thought, well, we can get away with this.
	Or a lower echelon person perhaps thought, Look, my boss doesn't want to see these results looking positive, so I'll make them look the way we all know they are, namely, there can't possibly be anything here, so let's just wash it away.
	You have to understand, these people did not believe they had a positive result.
	They believed that they just had a result that looked sort of positive, but it didn't matter anyway, so why not fudge it?
	Okay?
	That's what they thought.
	Why not fudge it?
	Why not fudge it, doctor?
	I mean, you heard me at the bottom of the hour.
	We've got paws of dirty air hanging above our cities.
	Right.
	We're burning fossil fuels that have a limit.
	It's not an infinite resource.
	It's a finite resource.
	Exactly.
	We're coming to crunch time pretty soon.
	The environment is beginning to revolt.
	The weather is beginning to worsen.
	I have a distinct feeling it's because of what we're doing.
	And so what you're saying is very non-trivial.
	You're saying these people, for the sake of grant money, Squashed something that could have done something about all of this.
	Absolutely, and it was worse than that.
	You know, the federal panel that was set up under Dr. John Huizenga, Professor Huizenga from the University of Rochester.
	That panel was set forth because there was a big furor about coal fusion, and the president, Bush at the time, wanted to know whether it was real or not.
	So he told his energy secretary, Admiral Watkins, let's have a panel And they got a panel of so-called experts, 22 people, one of whom, by the way, was from MIT.
	His name was Mark, Dr. Mark Wrighton.
	No longer at MIT, but he became the provost eventually.
	He was then the head of the chemistry department.
	Other negative people, people who are on record now as having known in advance that the whole business was nonsense.
	So this was the so-called jury they came up with.
	Let me tell you about the jury.
	Huizenga told the people who asked him to be the chairman of the panel, the co-chairman of the panel, don't even have a panel.
	This subject is such absurdity, it's so nonsensical, that it's going to go away in several weeks.
	Well, it didn't go away in several weeks, so he did his patriotic, quote, work of becoming a member of the panel and acting according to what they probably expected he would do, namely, Whitewash it and throw the whole thing in the trash can.
	The other guy was named Dr. William Happer from Princeton University.
	He was then the senior research man at the Department of Energy.
	He said, just by looking at puns and Fleischmann on television, you could tell they were incompetent boobs.
	That's on the record.
	Oh my God.
	And they use these people as judges?
	All right.
	Doctor, relax for a few moments.
	We've got quite a bit to do, and we'll get back to this in a big way.
	You know, if what you're hearing is true, it's about enough to reduce a strong person to tears.
	Is that what our country is all about these days?
	I hope not, and I am afraid so.
	From the high desert, this is CBC.
	This is the first time I've ever seen a man in a suit.
	It's alright, it's coming along, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Nothing is good, nothing can stop, we gotta get right back to where we started from.
	Call Artvel Toll Free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	at 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Good morning from the high desert.
	I'm Art Bell, and I do have a guest.
	He is Dr. Eugene Maloff, and we will kind of update you on where we're going.
	It involves Cold Fusion and some allegations that are extremely damning regarding the history of Cold Fusion.
	And some of the biggest institutions in our country.
	Ones, by the way, that Dr. Mellon has been part of.
	So this is serious stuff.
	Later on this morning on ABC's Good Morning America, so we're scooping them on this little bit, there's going to be a demonstration of an over-unity device, a water heater, using cold fusion.
	So we're sort of Going back over the history of Cold Fusion with Dr. Beloff, and we will do that, continue doing that, and update you, and tell you a little bit about the good doctor in a moment.
	However, before we do that, there's something that I want to clear up.
	Or at least I hope it clears it up.
	There's nothing like tape, you know, recordings, which we do, since we're a radio program.
	To clear things up and put them in the proper perspective.
	You're all familiar, I presume, with Joyce Riley.
	Joyce Riley is a nurse who's been champion of the rights of Gulf War vets who are still coming back sick.
	Their families, their friends, the American public, generally in danger from whatever in the hell it was released during the Gulf War, whether it was our side, their side, whatever it is, There seems to be little argument anymore, or maybe there is, like Cold Fusion, about whether this Gulf War syndrome is real or not.
	Joyce Riley has documented a very great deal of information, suggesting that it's very, very real.
	Well, I had her on the program, I don't know, I think it was, what, about, what was it, folks, last week?
	And she did a wonderful job.
	However, during the course of the interview, there was a reference to Michael Reagan.
	The reference was that the Reagan Show had contacted her, that she had actually met Mike Reagan at some sort of national association of talk show host convention or something.
	She had talked to him and given him information on the Gulf War Syndrome.
	And he said, please supply me with documentation, and we're going to do a show.
	And this is my recollection of it, and we'll get the exact words in a moment.
	Well, she supplied the documentation to Mike Reagan, sent it to him, and she then spoke with one of his producers, who said, yes, we want to get you on the air.
	This is my recollection of the conversation, or the way it went.
	And he said, oh, just one more thing.
	How far back does this go, the cover-up, meaning the cover-up?
	And Joyce said back to 1982, at which point she was told, she says, by the producer of that program, well, then we can't have you on.
	Obviously, it went back to the Reagan administration.
	Well, I found that Extremely distressing and shocking.
	And I don't attack other talk show hosts.
	If the facts attack them, that is their problem, not mine.
	I have no axe to grind whatsoever against Michael Reagan.
	We do very different kinds of programs.
	So earlier today, I got a call and I said, you know, well, I didn't say it was said to me that, you know, all week long, Michael Reagan has been trashing you.
	I said, really?
	Um, no kidding.
	And so I thought then it would be rather important for the audience, particularly at this earlier hour, to know exactly what was said on the program that apparently has brought this trashing of me by Michael Reagan.
	So what I'm going to do right now is have the network replay that particular segment, and you can hear it for yourself.
	So, Network, roll the tape, please, now.
	I want her now to tell you exactly what occurred between her and Michael Reagan.
	Michael Reagan contacted you, Joyce?
	I was with him at the National Association of Radio Talk Show Host Convention in Houston.
	I was there, present there.
	Right.
	I handed him a news release that said biological weapons used in the Persian Gulf.
	The disease is communicable.
	I handed that to him when we were having our picture taken and I simply said, our troops are not just sick, they're dying, Michael, and I need to get this word out.
	I need America to know about this.
	And he said, that's horrendous.
	You mean it's a communicable disease?
	And I said yes.
	You mean these men are really sick?
	This is really that bad?
	I said, yes, it is.
	And he said, well, I want to have this on my show.
	I said, certainly, no problem.
	He said, will you be on my show?
	And I said, yes.
	So his producer called me the next day or two days later and asked me to fax the hard copies of the documents supporting what I said.
	In other words, Mike Reagan wanted proof what you were saying really was true before he was going to put you on the air.
	That's correct.
	OK, so you faxed documents?
	That's correct.
	I faxed about 30 pages to him, to which they were very comfortable with the information.
	And his producer called me back to schedule a time and asked me, I just have one question for you.
	How far back does this trading with Saddam Hussein go in the sharing of biological weapons?
	And I said, 1982.
	And she said, well, I guess you know that we can't have you on the show since it goes into the Reagan administration.
	And I was shocked and I said, but the issue is so much more important than who was in power at the time.
	The issue is we've got sick Gulf War veterans.
	Well, subsequent to that time, of course, I have not been invited on the show.
	However, he did recently have on a man named Michael Sumento.
	Michael Sumento has written an article for Reason Magazine and the American Spectator called the Gulf War Syndrome, saying that the disease is not real.
	This is all hysteria.
	And that this is a big joke by the media played on the Gulf War veterans.
	Oh my God.
	That these men are not sick, and if they would just get a life and a psychiatrist, they would understand that they have a mental problem, not an illness.
	And Michael Reagan had that person on?
	Yes, he did.
	And Michael Reagan told... Michael Reagan's producer told you they would not have you on the moment they discovered it went back to the Reagan administration days?
	Absolutely correct.
	That's correct.
	Now the interesting thing is, and I quote a book called The Killing Wind, since the Reagan administration took office in 1980, budgets for both biological and chemical weapons skyrocketed.
	Now understand they were illegal at that time in 1969, so that in 1980, we shouldn't have been doing this.
	Our budget in 1969 for biological and chemical weapons was $19.4 million.
	When Reagan was in power in 1987, Our defense warfare budget was $71.2 million.
	That was for a so-called defensive program.
	So I think the issue is that we did the majority of our buildup and trading with all of these unstable third world countries during that time.
	I think that's the issue.
	You know, my statement to Mr. Reagan is I respect you.
	I respect your program.
	I have no problem with him personally other than It's about time that we get past the issue of who did what to whom and treat these Gulf War veterans.
	They're dying, they're sick, they're having deformed children, and all the while being told they have a mental problem.
	We've got to forget everything else and realize this is a national military genocide, and I don't know how much more plainly to say it.
	Alright, alright.
	I hope that the tale of the tape just proved to you all that I did not, nor do I ever, trash Michael Reagan.
	If this incident is as related, the incident trashed Michael Reagan, as far as I'm concerned.
	The incident itself.
	I don't go out of my way to trash anybody.
	I'm too busy.
	I've got too much to do.
	As a matter of fact, we've got to get back to it right now.
	Now, the latest was Joyce Riley called and said she's been invited now, suddenly, onto the Michael Reagan Show later today.
	Probably in the second hour.
	I'm not sure.
	But on the Michael Reagan Show, you will hear Joyce Riley.
	Later today, for a generous, I am told, 15 minutes.
	I don't know what the nature of the interview is going to be.
	I have no idea.
	But prior to it, I really thought the American people had a right to know what actually was said.
	And what you heard, just heard, just now, is what actually was said.
	That is an unedited version of the actual occurrence on this program.
	So there you are.
	For whatever it's worth, I did not trash Michael Reagan.
	If he wishes to be trashing me, go right ahead, Michael.
	But I certainly did not trash you.
	If anything, my friend, you trashed yourself.
	Enough said.
	We have business to do here, and we're going to get back to it in a moment.
	Alright, what we're in the middle of right now is a very As you all know, and I've said it a number of times now, look at any of our major cities, you will see a pall of dirty air hanging over them.
	This is not the only effect of burning fossil fuels, which are of course a finite item.
	We're going to run out of them.
	We need energy.
	Dr. Melloff has made some incredible allegations regarding the early work of Pons and Flashman and some of the Institutions that tried peer reviewing that work.
	He has said quite plainly that these institutions, and I'm quoting, fudged the results in order to squash cold fusion, in order to get, and I hope I'm getting this right, in order to maintain the level of grant money that was being given to the government for hot fusion.
	This is completely unacceptable.
	So that you know who you're hearing, let me again tell you, Dr. Maloff has been editor-in-chief and publisher of the bimonthly Infinite Energy magazine, Cold Fusion, and New Energy Technology, based in Concord, New Hampshire, with a research lab and publishing facilities in Bow, New Hampshire.
	He has a Master of Science degree, a Bachelor of Science degree, in Aeronautical and Astronautical Astronautical, that's correct, engineering from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MIT, and a science doctorate in environmental health sciences, air pollution control engineering, from Harvard University.
	With broad experience in high technology engineering at companies including Hughes Research Labs, um, Hughes Research Labs, T-A-S-C, the analytical, analytic Science Corporation and MIT Lincoln Laboratory.
	He's also had extensive hands-on experience in laboratory settings, more recently in cold fusion.
	Since 91, he has worked as a consultant to U.S.
	corporations doing and planning R&D in cold fusion.
	He is the author of three science books for the general public, including the Pulitzer-nominated book on cold fusion, He has taught science journalism at MIT and Boston University.
	He was chief science writer at the MIT News Office when Cold Fusion erupted.
	Prior to that, he was a top science writer and broadcaster with the Voice of America in Washington, D.C., and also wrote science and technology articles For magazines and newspapers, including MIT Technology Review and the Washington Post.
	And I apologize, Doctor, for stealing the time away from you.
	I had to get that on the air.
	Well, it's quite all right, actually.
	Looking at another controversy puts human behavior again in perspective.
	It does.
	There are a lot of similarities between... I'm not going to get into the details, of course, about that controversy that you just aired.
	If the facts are as presented, as I presume they are, it shows how sometimes, or very often actually, human beings do not act in the most ethical manner when embarrassing issues or, let's say, conflicts of interest occur.
	In the case of cold fusion, let me spell out what the conflicts of interest were back in 1989.
	And I want to also tell your listeners that the activities of MIT, Caltech, and other people who claimed negative results, high-profile places that claim negative results back then, they are of historical importance only.
	They do not reflect on whether or not there is a reality to cold fusion today, because the experiments that are now published over and over again The work in Japan, the work in China, Italy, France, Russia, etc., provides overwhelming proof that we are dealing with a new scientific and commercial, emerging commercial reality.
	However, it set the course in a very negative way back in the spring of 1989.
	Alright, but later on this morning, on Good Morning America, there will be a demonstration of a, is it proper to say cold fusion?
	I would say that yes.
	The word cold fusion, we have to say this, it's only used because that's the name that originated back then.
	That there might be a nuclear type reaction akin to, let's say, the hot fusion reaction that occurs in stars.
	Alright, this will be a water heater.
	A practical, this is what I've been asking for, some sort of practical device that actually demonstrates the process works.
	So they're going to bring a water heater out That has been operating now for how long?
	Months.
	Months?
	Months, since February.
	You have to understand, by the way, this is a rather significant event in that it represents one company of many coal fusion companies now, not dozens or hundreds, but a handful of companies within the United States that are perfecting this technology and have reached levels of hundreds to even in some cases thousands of watts.
	Experimentally not always with consistency, but here's an instance which apparently I'm saying apparently since I have not personally tested this device I look forward to doing it Has hundreds of watts capability definitely verging on the kind of technology that for many years now since we knew cold fusion was real and We predicted would occur.
	Is it economically viable?
	Absolutely, it's going to be economically viable.
	This energy source is immensely powerful.
	First of all, the fuel cost is essentially zero.
	Zero?
	Zero.
	And what do I mean by zero?
	Yes, what do you mean?
	What I mean is this.
	The capital cost of the equipment, of course, will be something.
	When coal fusion technology is finally on the market, as it will be, Okay, we will have installations that cost no more than when the mass production takes over than your ordinary oil burner or gas burner or whatever else you're using today.
	But there will be no deliveries of oil, there will be no deliveries of natural gas, no meter for electricity.
	There might be some periodic incidental changes of materials.
	And we do not believe, by the way, that the materials required for advanced cold fusion technology will use precious metals such as palladium necessarily.
	It might be involved, but unlikely to be limiting the process.
	It will be simply the changing of certain filters, incidental matters of the sort, normal upkeep.
	But the fuel cost will be zero.
	I cannot emphasize that enough.
	Water is essentially free.
	Right?
	That's what we're talking about.
	Now the implications of that were clear on day one.
	In fact, all the news media back in the spring of 1989 asserted that fact.
	It was clear that if Pons and Fleischmann were correct, which was the only issue at hand, not politics, not How well they announced their claims, or whether it was a news conference or not a news conference.
	The only issue at hand on the table in 1989 should have been, do they have a valid claim?
	Now the shocking news is this.
	Numerous people began in the spring of 1989 to report positive data.
	And this was all filtering in and inundating the Department of Energy panel that was So-called investigating this business.
	Instead, what the Department of Energy did with that data was to trash it.
	Utterly.
	What they did was a kangaroo court with biased witnesses.
	And what was that date, by the way?
	89?
	89.
	89.
	Alright.
	The report issued almost immediately.
	The summer of 89, they had their conclusion.
	They finalized the report in the fall of 89.
	Alright.
	Doctor, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be right back.
	Dr. Maloff is my guest.
	I'm Mark Bell.
	this is CBC.
	I'm going to play a little bit of this.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning everybody.
	Music is good.
	It soothes, you know, when you're simmering.
	It soothes.
	You know, I could expect that perhaps the oil companies, with all their power, The energy companies, the utility companies, would want to suppress something like Cold Fusion.
	But to imagine Cold Fusion was, in essence, back then anyway, killed because of jealousy over grant money is almost too much to bear.
	And that is exactly the story that we've been hearing from Dr. Maloff.
	And we're going to get back to him right now.
	Doctor, I've got a fax here.
	That asks, at some point, could you please discuss this form of energy production as it relates to the second law of thermodynamics?
	In other words, entropy, you cannot break even, as in decay.
	And then he goes on to say, believing exactly what you're saying, I wonder how many people out there actually realize what all this means on many levels.
	It is indeed astounding news.
	Yes, but let me try to address that question, a very appropriate and interesting question.
	Actually, the first law of thermodynamics, the energy conservation law, is the one that is, in reality, much more important on this issue, called fusion.
	When you have any device that appears to give more energy out than you're putting in, you begin to wonder, well, am I making a mistake of some sort in my calculations or my analysis of the system?
	Now let me point out, there are systems today that if you did not understand how they worked, you would say that the conservation of energy was being violated.
	I'll give you a very simple example.
	All nuclear power plants today, if you did not know that a nuclear power plant Had a nuclear reaction going on in the metal rods of uranium and so forth.
	You would see water going in one side of the nuclear plant at one temperature, cold, and coming out hot on the other side and seeing it steam generating and generating electricity.
	You'd say, my God, this plant is violating the first law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy.
	Sure.
	Well, of course we don't say that because we understand that a nuclear reactor, fission nuclear reactors, We all are familiar with.
	It works by known principles.
	But if you did not know that, if you brought that back to the 19th century... It would be magic.
	It would be magic.
	And the people in the 19th century would say of this wonder, they would say, where is the coal?
	Where is the oil?
	Where is the wood?
	Where is the smoke coming out of the smack?
	And then they would probably strap the scientist who claimed to have invented it to a wood pole and burn him alive.
	Now that's exactly what we're talking about with cold fusion.
	We're talking about a new type of energy that happens not to produce deadly radiation, thankfully, that happens to produce stupendous energy density.
	The energy density in these, that is the concentration of energy in some of these cold fusion cells, experimental and otherwise, is quite large.
	It is thousands of watts per cubic centimeter.
	That is, Something about the size of your thumb would contain energy of thousands of watts of power.
	Now, that is big.
	This is a very concentrated form.
	It is not producing deadly radiation.
	The big mystery about cold fusion has been, since 91, when almost any serious person looking at the data would have to say that it was either certainly true Always building strongly in that direction.
	Now it's 100% certain, because we have not only extremely good technical papers on it, showing the evidence, clearly, by extremely good organizations, but we have the beginnings of commercial products.
	Alright, most people, I think, have a basic understanding of a nuclear reactor and the fusion process.
	How do we delineate and explain the difference between that and what apparently is going on with cold fusion?
	All right, let's give a tiny, as non-technical as we can, glorial.
	Vision nuclear power began with, in most people's minds, the atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
	That is uranium or plutonium, obtained through a particular isotope of uranium, U-235, which had to be separated and concentrated in the Manhattan Project, a great tour de force.
	That is a power whereby a large, massive atom, such as uranium, is split.
	And nature provides this technique very simply.
	You just take a batch of uranium, make it pure enough and small enough, and smash it together with ordinary explosives, and you will get a chain reaction which splits many uranium atoms, and then you get a bomb.
	And releases the energy all at once.
	And releases it all at once.
	When you do it in a fission reactor, Such as the power plants that we have around the country today.
	Yes.
	You do it slowly.
	Fission occurs slowly in a controlled manner, such that it doesn't explode.
	There's no possibility of exploding in a bomb-like state.
	There are some hazards involved, but nonetheless, in the U.S.
	at least, it's been fairly benign.
	Right.
	Okay?
	Now, there's another form of nuclear energy that people have known about.
	Not fission, not the splitting of heavy atoms, but the joining of light atoms.
	As in hydrogen.
	Now that's what the sun is apparently doing.
	In the core of the sun, where it's 20 million degrees, an ongoing hot fusion reaction caused readily by the fact that the sun is enormous, it has gravitational containment of the fusion reaction, and so it burns for billions of years.
	Not burns, literally, but fuses.
	Hydrogen becomes helium.
	Okay, helium is a different type of element.
	Right.
	There's a change in elements.
	Right.
	That's fusion.
	Now, fusion is also used in hydrogen bombs and thermonuclear bombs, the kind we have in our arsenal.
	The ones that are a thousand times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb.
	The really big bangs.
	The really ones that could, if they ever were released, one single bomb would take out a city easily.
	Okay?
	Okay.
	Now that's hot fusion.
	And the other kind of hot fusion, of course, is what the government has supported.
	For over four decades at universities, which is a tour de force to mimic the stars, to make a controlled fusion reaction.
	And to try to contain it, I take it with... Magnetic fields.
	Magnetic fields.
	And things of this sort.
	Now let me just tell you, to show what I hope people will perceive as my integrity, I am a man of integrity, I always supported that.
	I always thought it was a good idea To put research money into that process, even if it were to cost a lot of money.
	No, it makes sense.
	If you have a potentially infinite supply of water and energy, it would be wonderful if we could get to the goal.
	All right.
	Where are we now, presently, with the hot fusion technology?
	I've heard reports that they've achieved it for very tiny amounts of instant, portions of a second or something or another.
	Where are we?
	Nowhere.
	Okay?
	There is no chance that this technology of hot fusion is ever going to produce a practical reactor.
	I say practical.
	I know my engineering judgment tells me, of course, if they were given enough money decades from now, we might have a very large football field size or very large complex reactor that indeed would be a central station producing
	electricity given enough billions they'll do it
	but cold fusion of course if it's real enough uh... i believe there's no question that it's real it's
	been commercialized at this point
	is so much better that is it doesn't produce deadly radiation is hot fusion
	would if it worked i'm ask a question about how fusion self-help
	with vision uh... as you pointed out there's not really a great danger of
	explosion uh... of course there could be the china syndrome there could be a
	meltdowns and so forth uh... but generally there is not
	uh... the risk of a gigantic explosion There certainly could be the poisoning of people if materials were... With the hot fusion process, assuming that you could get a plant going, would there be
	A danger that would exceed the efficient process?
	No, a hot fusion plant, if one were to be built, and I'm sure they will never be built at this point, would not be a danger of meltdown or explosion.
	There would be highly radioactive materials.
	That's something that the hot fusion people don't ordinarily advertise.
	Suppose the magnetic containment failed, what would occur?
	Nothing in particular.
	There would be the escape of the radioactive tritium fuel Which wouldn't be good, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad, in my opinion, from what I understand, as a fission plant problem.
	Alright, so hot fusion would be good if we could get it, but we don't have it, and there's no realistic opportunity for us to have it in the near future.
	Therefore, we get to cold fusion now.
	They are going to bring out on Good Morning America, assuming they run the piece after we've done all this, In the morning, they're going to bring out a water heater.
	This water heater has been operating for some time now, independent of what?
	Well, they have had input power to it.
	You have to understand that.
	Ultimately, cold fusion devices will be self-contained.
	There will be no connection to the grid.
	The grid is going to wither.
	In my opinion, as an engineer, seeing the implications of this technology, there's no doubt at all All right, I want to know, how much electrical input does this water heater need to operate?
	and next several years certainly the first decade of the next
	century we're going to see in my opinion an explosion of this
	if it is the technology if it is not suppressed by other means
	which it could be alright i want to know how much electrical input does this
	water heater need to operate okay the one they have today
	yes i do not have the technical specifications i cannot say but i can say what i have seen before of their
	technology Here's the way it works.
	They have had little tiny cells demonstrated at various symposia and cohesion meetings and commercial exhibits, which have, let's say, one watt of input power and several tens of watts of output power running continuously.
	And any engineer with an electric meter measuring the input current and voltage and measuring the temperature in and the temperature out could easily determine that the output was about 30 or so times the input power.
	All right.
	Now we get to matters of measurement.
	Art, would you please ask the doctor if this overunity is merely pointing out an error in units, i.e., perhaps a unit of electricity is not equal to a unit of heat.
	That's a very interesting concept, but I'm glad to say that there's no mistake here.
	I'll give you another example.
	My colleague, Jed Rothwell, at one of the meetings in which a clean energy technology cell was being run, one of the earlier versions, they had 1.4 watts of electrical power going into the cell.
	This was in a hotel suite.
	Yes.
	Out of the business end of the cell, the heat transfer piece of equipment was coming something on the order of 1300 watts.
	It was only going for several hours in that condition, and it was sufficient to make the hotel suite very uncomfortable.
	It was like a hair dryer from 1.4 watts.
	Now, 1.4 watts is on the order of a small nightlight, or less.
	So you don't get a hair dryer heating effect, I'm sure most of your listeners would agree, from 1.41.
	I agree.
	There's no mistake.
	Now the issue has to do with power and energy.
	Now the energy is the interesting thing.
	Power is just what you measure on one instant.
	Okay, it's a thousand times the input power.
	And that's impressive.
	But you know, a match can do that.
	Instantaneously, yes.
	Instantaneously, but it won't go on indefinitely.
	Right.
	And this is a continuing process.
	This cold fusion is a continuing process.
	Right.
	Now, Motorola tested one of the Patterson cells, and I'm very impressed with the results, because what they did is they got it up to temperature, 65 degrees centigrade, water going in, and there was some electric power going in, and there was 60 degrees centigrade, I'm sorry, going into the cell, and 75 degrees centigrade water coming out with a little bit of electric power in the but was producing about 20 watts however they then turned off the input power when it came up to speed and it went on then this little tiny cell with that same temperature difference with no input power zero input electricity for days I have the data and we published it in Internet Energy magazine
	Showing that at least for 11 hours it was dead on straight.
	So in other words, here you have a device that once the input power is cut off, you have an obvious, documented, continuing process underway.
	Exactly, and there can be no mistake when you have water flowing through a hot object.
	If it is a trivial effect, if it was just like a hot rock placed into a water stream, The water, as any of your listeners would know, should cool the hot rock, and that should be the end of it, and the process should stop, and there should be no temperature difference between input and output.
	But there is a temperature difference, and this effect has been seen over and over and over again in cold fusion.
	This is no joke.
	Now, furthermore, nuclear changes have been seen.
	Here's where we have the evidence of the process going on.
	There is no doubt about that.
	Well, a whole host of things occurred.
	To ask what is cold fusion is about the same as asking what is chemistry at the beginning of chemistry.
	If you were to say what is chemistry in the beginning of, let's say, the 19th century, you know, it would be like asking for an encyclopedia.
	We are seeing art just the tip of an iceberg.
	In one instance, some excellent Japanese work and American work by the naval Navy people at the Naval Surface Weapons Center in
	California, China Lake, they have seen helium as a production.
	Professor Arata in Japan, who by the way was one of the original hot fusion people,
	now firmly in the Cold Fusion camp, he has seen in recent excellent publications helium-4
	produced, that is the ordinary form of helium that you find in toy
	balloons.
	Sure.
	And another form of helium called Helium-3 is extremely rare on Earth.
	So when you see it in an experiment, you know, my God, we're producing a new element from hydrogen.
	So in other words, in the process of cold fusion, they're finding Helium-3.
	And Helium-4.
	And Helium-4.
	But also in these Patterson cells and in other cells, Such as Professor Dash in Oregon, and Dr. Mizuno in Japan, and a number of other people we could cite.
	They are seeing the changes in heavy metals.
	Now in the case of the Patterson cell, where you have metal coating these plastic beads, what you get are changes in the thin metal, which have been looked at by Dr. Miley of Nuclear Engineering at the University of Illinois, And they find dramatic changes.
	They're quite akin, in a way, to fission, but one important difference.
	They are not radioactive.
	They're benign.
	So it is like the gift of the gods, I have to say that.
	It is like, what could be better than finding an omnipresent fuel that we don't have to fight over, namely water?
	Actually, it does get better, because it is my understanding, and you're going to have to explain this, That it is possible to take some of the high-level waste we have, which, by the way, they plan to store next to me out here, or in New Mexico, and in this cold fusion process, somehow, cause it, and I'm not a scientist, so I don't know where I'm going, cause it to disappear, to decay.
	Transmute.
	To transmute quickly and cheaply.
	That is the other thing that the Good Morning America Show should reveal, because we know they've done this and we know they filmed it.
	They take uranium and thorium, which are both radioactive.
	This is not high-level waste, by the way, that they use in these experiments, but it's just the principle in any event.
	It could be done for high-level waste.
	You take the uranium and thorium, you put it on Patterson beads, and you apply this very minor, very benign electricity, and you get, within a period of hours, you get a reduction, a substantial reduction, Where's the energy going, Doctor?
	Well, only God knows, or the theorists know.
	By the way, there are dozens of theories to try to explain this, but I am convinced that we must get back to the fundamentals of science, which is, data is much more important than theory.
	And grants.
	And grants.
	All right, Doctor, hold on.
	You've got plenty of time.
	Relax.
	We'll come back, and when we do, we'll go to the phones.
	Thank you.
	Here is a process, ladies and gentlemen, that will allow virtual free energy and, by the way, as sort of a side benefit, will give us an opportunity to get rid of some of that awful poisonous stuff that otherwise we're going to have to store for hundreds of thousands of years.
	Do you understand the implications of what you're hearing?
	This is CBZ.
	Call Art Bell toll-free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033
	1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033 This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is.
	I'm Art Bell, and it is great to be here.
	My guest is Dr. Eugene Maloff, and if you would like to ask him a question, we're about to open the phone lines.
	Love to have you join us.
	So pick up the telephone and call.
	Now, back to Eugene Maloff, editor-in-chief of Infinite Energy Magazine.
	And by the way, if you go to my website, you will see a link to the Good Doctors website where you can get much more information on that which we are discussing this morning.
	So I suggest you do that.
	Of course we have our webcam up there.
	I'm presently trying to reconnect to it right now and you'll be able to see the show in progress as well as go to Dr. Maloff's website.
	All that in mind we're about to go to the phones so if you have questions and remember Later today on ABC's Good Morning America, if everything goes well, and I presume that it will, they are going to bring out a water heater that, for the first time nationally in this sort of a forum, is going to demonstrate exactly what we have been talking about this morning.
	It should be quite a moment.
	Now, we don't know for sure which hour this demonstration is going to occur, but we believe it may be in the first hour.
	To be on the safe side, if you can't watch, I would tape the entire thing.
	It usually begins about 7 a.m.
	in whatever local time zone you happen to be in.
	That may be different in mountain time zones.
	As the famous saying goes, check your local listings.
	Dr. Melov, are you there?
	I sure am.
	All right, how about a few questions from the audience?
	Love to take them.
	Here they come.
	First time caller online, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Maloff.
	Hi.
	Greetings, Oregon, the doctor from the internet.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in cyberspace.
	Okay.
	I'm on your website, and when you do get a chance, tell us exactly where that link is.
	The Need More Energy seems to go to health food, not to the doctor's site.
	If you would please turn your audio down.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I'm on a cell phone.
	I'll try to keep my voice down.
	No, no, no, no.
	I meant the radio program going on in the background, sir.
	I have it all the way off.
	All right.
	Go ahead.
	Do you have a question?
	Just blown away by the subject.
	Unbelievable effect on world economics and structure, the wealth, power, military.
	If the doctor has a chance to respond to a couple of these different topics at some point later on, maybe?
	Sure.
	The effect on space-bound payloads.
	Oh, wonderful.
	Whether or not the machine feeds itself perpetual motion, how pure the sample that may be required, and the real safety issues for such things as combustion engines and other smaller applications for that sort of thing.
	Right.
	I really am very excited about it.
	My uncle was actually at both Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
	He was the radar man.
	Uh-huh.
	And I'd always looked forward to a time when atomic energy could, in a safe way, you know, possibly be unleashed in a different format.
	Well, here it is.
	And it just seems like it's it.
	You know, is what, is Joan Lunden and the other fellow going to just be blown away by this?
	Is it that revolutionary that all the energy companies will just flip?
	Actually, that's a very good question because I understand this has already been taped.
	In other words, Is that correct?
	This probably won't be a very big segment, but as TV goes, my understanding it might be something like a four or five minute segment.
	As I say, it's been done in the past with lesser performance, talked about and verified by other scientists on Good Morning America about a year ago, and also on Nightline.
	But it is being followed closely, and now we're seeing a rather quantum leap Because of two things, we're seeing not only a much higher performance level over a long period of time, but we're also seeing what Art earlier mentioned, the transmutation of elements, that is taking radioactivity, which indubitably exists in the system at the start, and then goes down, is dramatically reduced over a period of time, hours, not billions of years, and we get rid of the radioactive waste.
	By the way, they're not the only people that have done this.
	There are some other groups that we will be reporting on in Infinite Energy Magazine.
	We have concrete evidence in hand that this process of reducing radioactivity that is transmuting elements, which I would call the back door of cold fusion, the opposite side of it, has occurred.
	The data seems to me to be without question.
	It is extremely carefully done.
	And I have no doubt about it at all.
	It has enormous implications for the state of Nevada, to say the least.
	Yes, sir.
	He also asked about our space program.
	Let's go back to that.
	Space exploration will be revolutionized.
	No question.
	I've written about this many times.
	And what we will see, at the bare minimum, are small, compact units.
	We do not need solar power that go into space stations, go into space capsules, to take care of the routine energy needs.
	Therefore, we won't need all that much Generating equipment such as big solar panels that we have now on space stations.
	But the more exciting thing is this.
	Given that we have already developed so-called ion engines.
	These are engines that expel propellants at very high velocity electrically.
	All that's been lacking is a source of electricity.
	Now they were planning to use of fission reactors ordinary nuclear fission reactors in space but of course that's politically untenable and probably not wise anyway so now we have a compact source potentially emerging here with this no radiation quality and yet very high power density so this will revolutionize electric engine ion engine propulsion which will allow the solar system to open up
	You see, these engines are very slow in accelerating things, but once they get up to speed, they're extremely efficient.
	It will allow the space frontier to expand enormously.
	And that's just the beginning.
	There was another question there regarding... Well, he asked about sample purity.
	Oh, sample purity.
	Well, that is a big issue now in some of the systems, the palladium ones in particular.
	Pons and Feishman had the great misfortune of starting with the most difficult system.
	The ones that go today I seem to be far more robust, very forgiving, and one would then say, the skeptical person would say, well, since there isn't all that much in a way of sophistication on some of these electrochemical co-fusion systems, why wasn't it seen before?
	Very simple answer.
	Wasn't looked for.
	No one expected it.
	All right.
	To the phones again, wild card line, you're on the air, hi.
	Hi, this is Dan in Virginia.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, Dr. Malaf, I had a chance to see a demonstration last year in Philadelphia.
	There was a group called Better World Technology, and they had demonstrated what is known as Brown's Gas.
	Are you familiar with that?
	Yes, I've heard of Brown's Gas.
	In fact, I've recently talked to people whom I consider to be very sane, credible engineers who work with Brown's Gas up in Canada.
	I have not followed the Brown's gas issue very much, but they're not claiming, in that case, over-unity, that is, more energy out than in.
	Brown's gas, which is apparently a very unusual combination of oxygen and hydrogen split from water in a special way, the flame of this gas has some very unusual properties, apparently.
	Now, I have not personally tested it.
	I'm looking forward to testing it in the near future.
	Yes, but the gentleman who I consider to be a very reliable person testified to me personally coming to my laboratory here in New Hampshire.
	it's a lot of them the phone yes but i have a good gentleman who i consider to
	be a very reliable person testified to me personally
	coming to my laboratory here in in new hampshire he said look you can take this
	flame and you can draw it across your hand it will not scorch you
	have to have a financial to later it crosses a piece of
	in stainless steel cut right through it obviously that's shocking
	one and one one one one one how can that be it it it it it just works on on the
	uh...
	my understanding of it is uh... is that it works on the uh... the particular
	Let's be clear about something.
	We do not know how this works.
	For the sake of argument, let's say it does work.
	Let's say that demonstration is a reality.
	I would like to see it myself to be absolutely sure of this reality.
	I won't believe it until I physically see it and measure it.
	But since I have talked now, finally, in only recent weeks, To someone I consider an authority on this, I didn't know about him before, and since he, to my face, told me that, Gene, yes, it works this way, you can do this, I will, for the sake of suspend disbelief for a few minutes here, say that it works.
	Alright, let's say it does work.
	How could it work?
	Okay, well, let me make a speculation here, and tie it in with ColdFusion.
	Much of what's happening with ColdFusion is quite mysterious.
	Why there should be nuclear reactions at room temperature is a very big mystery.
	Because the nuclei, the positively charged nuclei of atoms, repel each other.
	That's why we don't see it willy-nilly happening all the time.
	Changes of elements happening right in front of our eyes.
	So the actual truth is, if I were to try and pin somebody down, they would not be able to answer Where this energy comes from?
	They really couldn't answer that ultimate question.
	Okay, there isn't in the coal fusion community, there is not in the coal fusion community, a general agreement as to how to explain the energy source.
	The general consensus view, however, there is somewhat of a consensus view on the following point, that it is nuclear reactions, okay, because the nuclear products have definitely been seen.
	There's absolutely no question about that.
	So there are nuclear reactions involved.
	They do not produce intense radiation.
	That's another thing.
	So there are really two miracles here.
	Why is the nuclear reaction occurring at all?
	Yes.
	And two, if it is occurring, which of course it is occurring by our evaluation, why is it not producing deadly, lethal radiation the way ordinary hot fusion is?
	Indeed.
	And that is, we are faced with a double miracle.
	We're faced with new types of nuclear changes.
	Now I would suggest that perhaps, it's just a speculation, perhaps in the case of Brown's gas, ordinary monatomic hydrogen produced somehow in this very unusual and yet simple process, goes into the nuclei of other atoms in the metal, for some reason it doesn't go into the nuclei in your hand easily, But let's say in tungsten or in steel, as I've heard, when it does cut steel quite nicely, it perhaps produces something akin to a nuclear reaction, and obviously melts the steel.
	Now, that's just a speculation, and I don't want to be held to that, because I haven't even seen the process itself.
	All right, Doctor.
	May I ask you about one other thing that I've been very curious about?
	There are a lot of people talking about something called zero-point energy.
	Yes.
	An energy that is apparently all around us, in space, around us as we speak.
	It is real.
	It is real?
	It is definitely real.
	It has been measured most recently by a researcher who is now at Los Alamos National Laboratory.
	He was formerly in the state of Washington, I believe.
	Zero-point energy is no big deal in the sense that it has been part and parcel of ordinary quantum mechanics.
	There's this energy fluctuation in space, pervading space, and it can be measured as a force.
	It can produce a force.
	These fluctuations in the quantum level, very much below the size of atoms and particles, does express itself as a force when objects get very close, and that has been measured.
	Now, what has not been accepted readily is that this source of energy could be tapped.
	It could be taken and used, because it's sort of like a warm bath.
	If you have a warm bath, and everything is sort of equal temperature around you, the room is warm, and the bath is warm, and everything is warm, you can't generate electricity with a uniform temperature.
	That's sort of a law of thermodynamics.
	So, people, by analogy, are quite amazed when you tell them, you know, we might be able to extract some of this energy from space itself.
	You know, this energy which you say is really there and which has been measured.
	That throws them, because what it looks like then, of course, is a perpetual motion machine.
	Do you remember, Doctor, when a shuttle mission went up and released a long tether?
	Yep.
	And, as a matter of fact, it was a mishap, and there was so much energy, apparently produced, that it literally burned the tether in two.
	It was an unexpected event, indeed.
	An unexpected event.
	My question is, Doctor, where did that energy come from?
	Okay.
	I cannot comment on that particular episode because I'm not well-versed in it.
	I'd prefer not to.
	It might have something to do with zero-point energy.
	It might not.
	It might be a very conventional explanation.
	But what I do know is this.
	I do know that there are some excellent technical papers published in the peer-reviewed literature that state there is no objection on fundamental reasons of what we think we know about physics to oppose the idea that we could get energy from the vacuum.
	Now there are several devices that we've written about in our magazine that are patented and they're high-quality people.
	These are not fly-by-nights, these are not charlatans, and they're not self-diluted.
	These people have measured what appears to be electrical power from the vacuum.
	We're generating electric power right now.
	Dr. Paolo and Alexandra Correa have small devices that generate electric power.
	It goes back to Tesla, doesn't it?
	It does.
	It's similar to various claims made earlier in the century.
	I am of the opinion that some of these claims of energy tapping from space are real.
	Now, if that's true, We own the stars.
	If co-fusion is just, quote, a nuclear reaction, a benign nuclear reaction, we own the solar system.
	If zero-point energy is being tapped and producing electric power, we own the stars.
	We can go to the stars easily at that point.
	Okay, well, let me understand something.
	At the orbital position of the shuttle, when it released the tether, there was essentially no atmosphere present.
	In other words, they were in a vacuum, essentially.
	Very, very thin.
	So thin as to be hardly measurable.
	So to get the amount of electrical energy at the other end of that tether to blow the fuses, which they did, they blew circuit breakers and everything else as that thing literally severed itself, that energy had to come from somewhere.
	Well, you see, they were relying on, my understanding is, and it's limited at this point, I would like to investigate it more, Is that it came from the electric fields around the earth was the intent to be tapped.
	Okay, the normal magnetic field.
	Yes, yes.
	But whether it was more energy coming out than could be accounted for by normal understanding.
	The motor concept, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	All right, doctor.
	Hold on.
	We'll get right back to you.
	Dr. Eugene Maloff is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell, and you are listening to the Independent American CBC Radio Network.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the radio.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am.
	727-1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Once again, here I am. You don't want to miss Good Morning America this morning. There is going to be a demonstration
	of a water heater that operates using the cold fusion process,
	or a variation of the cold fusion process, or a variation of the Patterson cell process.
	You don't want to miss it.
	What is at stake?
	Everything is at stake, so you don't want to miss that.
	Now, my guest is Dr. Eugene Maloff.
	Doctor, are you there?
	I am here.
	All right.
	On my first time caller line, which means he's paying for the call himself, I've got somebody from Belize in Central America.
	Wonderful.
	Hello there, sir.
	You're on the air.
	You're in Belize, huh?
	Yeah.
	Good morning.
	All right.
	Good morning, Dr. I was just listening to your last portion before the break about the tether in space and what kind of energy could have been created there.
	We know that Something happened, as you were discussing, but what we don't know is why haven't they tried it again to find out what happened?
	Why isn't there any more experimentation with that?
	Well, I don't know.
	That's something I really would like to get more into.
	You know, there are so many things happening, it's hard to... So many anomalies that what one sees, when one opens the big blue ones, you begin to realize that many things that you previously thought were on solid ground may not be.
	Such as a tether in space, if an anomaly occurred there and an unexpected power burst that conventional electrical theory cannot explain.
	If that is the case, I don't know that that's the case, but let's say it is the case.
	Well, it's true that we don't understand electricity to its full extent, but it would seem to me that with NASA sending up so many shuttles on regular missions, why not try it again?
	Oh yes, I have to agree, and then there's one more thing.
	Obviously, they did not expect this result.
	Whatever engineering they did, they did to be able to try and draw a predicted amount of electricity and use it.
	So whatever occurred was obviously unexpected.
	That would be a fair observation, considering the thing broke in half.
	Yes, agreed.
	But why not try it again to see if that same anomaly occurred?
	I absolutely agree with you.
	And by the way, what are you doing in Belize?
	I'm an entertainer.
	I'm living in balmy, mosquito island down here called San Pedro, Ambergris Key.
	I see.
	And enjoying it immensely.
	All right.
	Well, I thank you very much for the call, and it's well pointed out.
	And now that I've taken care of that, gentlemen, Dr. Rest, for a moment, we'll be right back to you.
	All right.
	Doctor, in this field of fusion, zero-point energy, how much hucksterism is going on?
	We're in the business of trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.
	There is a lot of hucksterism going on.
	I regret to say that.
	Of course, it gets confused.
	The griptip stuff does get confused, which is why we make a very strenuous effort to separate what we can test and see and have other independent investigation support.
	But I will tell you this.
	The bottom line is that there is absolutely no doubt There are over unity processes that are of immense importance that will rely on effectively free fuel such as cold fusion processes that use water as a basis.
	Very tiny amounts of fuel being consumed and other things such as the Correa device in Canada and ones that may approach it in their Heretical performance, generating electricity, generating over-unity effects from God knows where.
	By the way, there's a whole other class which we call cavitation devices.
	These are devices that produce intense bubbles in water, like the cavitation that you experience on ships' propellers.
	There's a phenomenon called sonoluminescence, which is the emission of light.
	Right.
	As you watch, if you go out, for example, as I do on cruises, And you go out at night.
	They have great big screws that propel these big cruise ships, and the cavitation process produces a glow in the water behind the ship.
	Yes.
	Well, I'm not exactly familiar with the glow behind the ship, maybe the other things involved, but definitely cavitation bubbles produce light emission.
	And this emission is extremely difficult to explain by ordinary theories.
	One of the latest theories is that it indeed extract energy from space.
	There's some very sane technical papers on that.
	We personally have tested devices that use cavitation and they appear to be over unity.
	We are hearing about more and more of these that do produce in a very simple system, quite frankly, you know, a spinning rotor with holes in it, for example, running at close tolerances, producing more heat output than Alright, so when real honesty is called for, whichever process we're talking about, of the ones that really do or can be proven to work, we don't really know why they work.
	We don't really know where the energy is coming from.
	I understand.
	I understand.
	I'm just trying to clarify a point that we don't really understand where the energy is coming from.
	It is getting to be pretty clear now that nuclear changes attend them.
	That is, the nuclear changes are occurring.
	There's no doubt about it.
	Yes, yes, I understand that.
	But even listening to you, you can't quite fully explain why.
	Right.
	You have to understand that we've had many international meetings on coal fusion.
	There'll be the seventh international one next spring in Vancouver, by the way, April 19th through the 24th.
	And at these meetings you have contending theorists within the Cold Fusion field battling with various ideas.
	But what they are all in agreement on is that we are dealing with a real subject.
	This is in contrast to the appalling neglect the scientific community at large is giving to this subject, which was of course launched and masterminded by what you'd have to call bigoted scientists People with vested interests, not only vested interests in Hot Fusion, by the way, but vested interests intellectually.
	I'm so sick of vested interests, period.
	Back to the phone lines.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning with Dr. Maloff.
	Good morning, Mr. Bell.
	I started to say Dr. Bell.
	Good morning.
	No, no, no.
	Well, I was waiting, I have to tell you, waiting to come on the air when you said, are you overweight?
	I instantly sucked in my gut.
	I've been fighting the battle of the bulge.
	I've been meaning to send for that product instead of starving myself after death all the time.
	Okay.
	Doctor, good morning, sir.
	Good morning.
	I have two things.
	First of all, I find it fascinating about this water heater because I recall in the 1950s when they came out with a new device so they wouldn't explode, that shut off device.
	And now it's the water heater once again.
	Well, I don't know what shut-off device you're talking about, and what type of energy were you talking about?
	Well, the water heaters would build up so much heat that they could explode.
	Oh, yes.
	And then they developed a shut-off valve that would reach a certain heat level.
	Certain pressure.
	Yes, sir.
	My question, a dear friend of mine was a screenplay writer, Stanley Shapiro, who is now deceased.
	I brought him together with a gentleman in the early 1970s, And he had written a book based on this fellow's theory that Newton's Law of Gravitational Pull could be wrong, that throughout all of the creation, that it could be push.
	Yes, oh yes, I've heard that too.
	Would you care to comment on that?
	Well, let me comment in general about new physics theories.
	I think we are indeed faced with an emerging fact.
	That all our existing theories don't adequately explain things like cold fusion, things like, perhaps, such as the Teller System.
	And that brings to mind my very good friend, Dr. Peter Grenot, who's in Massachusetts.
	He and his son, Neil Grenot, who is at Oxford University, they have a theory of electrical forces, very well considered, based on very, very copious experimental evidence.
	That shows that some aspects of electromagnetic behavior are not what they seem at all.
	They've done experiments which show that there are some very serious contradictions in electromagnetic theory as practiced today.
	So, these longitudinal forces and other things that the Grinnells are talking about must be on the table.
	The point of the matter is we do not have at this stage of our Existence in human civilization.
	We don't have the final theory.
	Of course, the physicists, the mainstream physicists with their vested interests, are writing books like The End of Science and The Theory of Everything and so forth, stating that we are pretty close to understanding it all.
	They're so out to lunch, they don't even know where they are.
	They can't even explain, of course they're ignoring it completely, tabletop nuclear reactions.
	That's what we're talking about here.
	We're talking about things that do not fit into the current paradigm.
	It is an immense paradigm shift.
	I would say it is about as strong and important a paradigm shift in physics as, let's say, the Copernican Revolution was.
	That's quite a revolutionized human culture as well, as one of our callers, one of your callers, mentioned.
	Alright, well let me ask the inevitable, and it is from Bridget in Durham, Oregon.
	Won't the international oilman slash bankers either refuse to fund cold fusion projects or manage to sabotage them through adverse publicity and worse, unless they can manufacture a method of recouping their losses?
	The oil cartels, the writing is on the wall for them.
	They're dead.
	Okay?
	They're going to be dead.
	Their only hope at this point, in my opinion, is to Join in and become investors in the whole coal fusion, new energy field.
	You can't beat them, John.
	You have to.
	They'll have to.
	Anyone who does not will be going against the grain.
	Every once in a while in history, the critical mass of intelligence and data come together as they come in coal fusion and washes away the old.
	You're not going to have horse and buggies being the dominant form of transportation when you have automobiles.
	And you're not going to have trains being the dominant form when you have airplanes.
	Well, I heard an interesting fact out of all things yesterday, the Travel Channel.
	They said, do you know that it was just 66 years from the time the Wright Brothers flew until we first landed on the moon?
	Yes.
	Now that bears a little thought.
	It does.
	And there has not been a similar Revolution or quickening, if you will, in the development of new technologies like the ones we're talking about.
	Why?
	Well, I would say computers, in a way, are as crept up on us.
	You know, in the mid-70s, I remember using a slide rule when I was at MIT in the late 60s.
	You know, we didn't expect that sitting on our desktops in only 20 years, You would have computers that are far more powerful than the largest mainframes that existed back then.
	Right.
	It kind of crept up on us.
	Now this thing, this cold fusion, has crept up on us.
	Most people have been unaware of it because the mass media and the Department of Energy and the vested academic interest have done an incredible hatchet job.
	But fortunately, thousands of good scientists all over the world have continued working on it.
	The data is irrefutable.
	And now, commercial enterprises, small commercial enterprises in the U.S., larger ones in Japan, and soon the whole world will be ignited by this, I have no doubt.
	We're dealing with a real phenomenon.
	So therefore, it's got to be commercialized.
	And this is going to change completely the global power structure.
	Those countries that are completely vested in oil as their main staple are going to suffer very badly.
	In some cases, I could care less.
	Okay.
	With those particular countries, we know who they are.
	But in other cases, we may have a more charitable attitude toward them.
	It will be too bad.
	There will be displacement, as any revolution creates.
	But there will be enormous numbers of new jobs, because the entire energy infrastructure of the planet is going to have to change.
	All right.
	Well, what can you tell me about, in other words, these large energy and oil companies?
	Yes.
	We have seen people in the oil industry coming to us, subscribing to the magazine, among other things, and talking to us.
	In fact, some of those oil companies weren't so bad in the early days of Cold Fusion 1, Amoco, actually got positive coal fusion results in 1989.
	They were subsequently published later on.
	They were actually going to get into it quite deeply, except the Department of Energy created such a stink against coal fusion, they were embarrassed to bring out their own work.
	You know, though, Doctor, here's what I see in my mind's eye, and I guess maybe I'm wrong, but I see you, Doctor, and people like you, sitting at a great big solid oak table, With a big guy down at the other end, probably with a cigar stuffed into his mouth, saying, well, this is some damn machine you've got here, bud.
	What I want you to tell me is how do we get a meter on it?
	Well, there isn't going to be a meter.
	The only way that this will be controlled with meters, in my opinion, yes, the government, in order to maintain its taxation on oil, as it does now, and energy in general, We'll try to put a tax on the machines themselves as they come off the production line.
	Something of this sort.
	But there's not going to be any meter.
	This is completely going to overwhelm any attempt to control it.
	No meter?
	No meter.
	No meter.
	Because, you know, we're not going to have power lines coming into the house.
	They're going to be self-contained electric generators in small complexes, perhaps, or in just a home.
	Individual homes will have their own electricity generation.
	People will be able to place their homes anywhere they want, irrespective of the grid.
	And we're going to have to have a whole change in our philosophy.
	Well then, sir, as the network anchor was told in the movie network, you are tampering with the basic forces of nature.
	We are.
	And somebody is going to bury you.
	Not going to happen.
	There are thousands of people now who know this reality.
	Okay?
	This is a reality.
	By the way, it's been in a movie.
	I was proud to be the advisor to the Saint movie, which featured Cold Fusion as a theme.
	It's fiction in the movie, but the reality is that it's there.
	Yeah, but even today, Doctor, people are saying, based on the negative publicity over the years, Cold Fusion just isn't real!
	Well, they're saying it, but these are hollow words.
	The critics of Cold Fusion are quite amazing.
	They are like Wile E. Coyote.
	They've gone off the cliff already.
	They're spinning their legs, they're laughing and smiling, but they're about to plunge down a mile or so and be destroyed forever.
	That's what's going to happen.
	There's no doubt about it.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Mello.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	I'm discussing with vested interest and conflict of interest, too, and not being a scientist, I can't confirm this revolutionary confusion, but I think just as important an area of investigation would be what you brought into this, this whole idea that Powerful interest, even smaller interest, like $30 million of a grant can suppress a revolutionary new development.
	I think from that I was reading an extra magazine, which is put out by FAIR, because I think it's all interdisciplinary.
	For instance, this story that came out got a similar type of hatchet job about the CIA contraband involvement in drug smuggling.
	Time Magazine's senior editor told their own research.
	Reporter who came up with the same evidence of a Contra C.I.
	drug smuggling.
	We're not going to, we're going to kill your story about Contra drug smuggling because we institutionally support the Contras.
	We are committed to the Contras.
	Well, you're all way off into another subject, sir.
	But the fact of the matter is that the San Jose Mercury began backing away from the story that caused all the controversy.
	And if you don't believe me, check into it.
	Wellston of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Maloff.
	Hi.
	I'm going to find out if there's any way to convert some of the nuclear waste out there to run cars with.
	Well, we're not going to use nuclear waste to run cars, but we are with coal fusion now, with the new processes that have been discovered as a result of it.
	We're going to be able to very cheaply, as the years emerge here, reduce and eliminate nuclear waste.
	We're going to be able to change it into In two very benign forms.
	This is completely heretical.
	Radioactivity is not supposed to change by anything you do to it with, say, temperature or electricity.
	It has a specific decay period, which is horrendously long.
	We can barely plan 40 years in the future, much less tens of thousands of years.
	And they're telling us we're going to have to safely store this crap for tens of thousands of years next to me.
	No thank you.
	My feeling is this.
	I think that the revolution against what happened to coal fusion, the final political awareness that something must be done to reinvestigate the Department of Energy and let heads roll at the Department of Energy, it may come from this nuclear waste issue.
	Because let's face it, folks in Nevada do not want this nuclear waste dump It's dumped in their neighborhood.
	No, we don't.
	And they shouldn't have to deal with it, because now, the Department of Energy, just like in 89, it was faced with an issue.
	Is this real or not?
	Well, then they chose to have a kangaroo court, and they thought they got rid of it, but you can't get rid of something that's real.
	So they failed.
	Now we have another anomaly that you're going to see in a few hours, we trust if the schedule's correct.
	Good morning, America.
	We're going to have nationally televised evidence That there is a method, a benign, simple, cheap method of getting rid of nuclear waste.
	Now, if congressmen and citizens do not raise holy hell in Washington and say, we're not sure this is real, but you damn well better investigate this.
	You better damn well find out.
	How about that?
	Doctor, look, we're at a break point.
	I can use you one more hour if you want it.
	I'll take it.
	You'll take it.
	You've got it then.
	All right.
	Dr. Eugene Melloff is my guest.
	Are you listening?
	Do you understand the implications of what's being said here about energy, about what we're doing to ourselves, about what we can do with this high-level stinking waste?
	We'll be right back.
	Let's see if this makes any sense.
	Dear Art and Dr. Maloff, NASA deployed a 20-meter conducting tether from the shuttle to measure and use the motion through the Earth's magnetic field, they say, to generate power through inductance at 20.0 meters at the velocity of 250 meters per second and using the downward component of the magnetic force of the field.
	They should have conducted only 0.30 volts.
	They got much more.
	So I agree with that caller.
	I cannot understand why we have not yet done it again.
	Or could it be because of the fact they got so much more that it has revealed something that they don't really want revealed yet?
	It's possible.
	Let's just take the facts as the listener presented them.
	Let's take those facts as a given for the sake of argument.
	If a very unexpected voltage and current appeared, my understanding now that I've seen how the cold fusion controversy emerged, I would expect a similar thing.
	A controversy would erupt within NASA over what happened.
	There would be blame assigned and so forth.
	There would be various attempts to cover responsibility, etc.
	And stupidity and incompetence and not so much greed or desire to conceal a new discovery would come into play, but an attempt to basically cover their behinds as to why this failed.
	You see, when conventional scientists observe some new phenomenon, unlike what they normally pronounce, they normally say, oh, we want to see new things, because anomalies are what energizes science and expands the frontiers.
	That's not true.
	Most scientists do not want to see new things, because it upsets them.
	Nothing that would explode their little theory.
	Exactly.
	Yes.
	Well, for example, the classic example is Professor Herman Feshbach at MIT.
	Back in 1991, shortly before I resigned from MIT over various matters, including the fudging of the anti-cold fusion data, I had an article that was going to appear in MIT Technology Review.
	It was going to be on the cold fusion evidence as it existed back then.
	It was approved by one of the former editors of the Technology Review magazine.
	But a few weeks later, after getting word that it was approved, I heard from this editor, this spineless former editor, he said, we're not going to publish it.
	And I said, what are you talking about?
	You told me it was going to be published.
	It was going to be a cover story.
	And?
	And he finally revealed the nature of who had deep-sixed it.
	It was a physics professor, Professor Feshbach, among others, but he was the primary one.
	And I called him up, not expecting a change, but I had never heard from him, never talked to him.
	Before I asked him why he was rejecting this, why he was recommending it not be published, and it never was published.
	He said, look, I've had 50 years of experience in nuclear physics, and I know what's possible and what's not possible.
	Well, I said, Professor Feshbach, would you at least agree to Read the summary of the cold fusion evidence, as it stood in 1991, by Dr. Storms of Los Alamos National Laboratory, and also Dr. Srinivasan of the Baba Atomic Research Center in India.
	They reviewed the evidence.
	They would like you to look at it and make your own conclusion from it.
	He says, I will not look at this evidence.
	It's all junk, and he hung up.
	Then about five years later, he got on national television A nightline.
	No, it was Good Morning America, I believe, at the time.
	And when asked about the Patterson cell, he said, look, I have no knowledge of this Patterson cell.
	I don't know what it is.
	I don't have any experience with it.
	But I can assure you that there were no nuclear reactions in it.
	It was very similar to the church back in 1600, which said, look, we're not going to look through the telescope.
	We know our theories.
	of the universe and Aristotle and so forth state that the heavens are perfect.
	We're not going to see craters in the moon, blah, blah.
	And so we don't want to see anything that would spoil that theory.
	Right.
	So 400 years later, we see the same thing.
	Science hasn't changed.
	First time caller line, you are on the air with Dr. Malov.
	Hi.
	Good morning.
	How do you do?
	I have a couple questions for you.
	My name is Richard from Tennessee.
	Yes, sir.
	First off, how soon do you think it would be before an average person could build one or buy one of these things, and how much would it cost?
	That's an awfully good question.
	Let's not go with the build part.
	Let's go with the when is somebody going to put a water heater like you're about to see on ABC's Good Morning America this morning.
	When is somebody going to put that on the market?
	There are two answers to that question.
	One has to do with what could be done if the resources were there and a crack engineering team were involved.
	The other is practicalities of the money situation and the development and politics and all that.
	If there were a crack team and the proper resources applied to this problem right now, my opinion is that we would have a home heating unit for the next heating season, that is, this coming fall.
	Without question.
	Okay?
	I have zero question about that, based on what we know.
	Now, if you're talking about the practicalities...
	Of how is little company A dealing with this, and investments and licenses and all this other business, and the way the Department of Energy Act and the way regulations might be employed to suppress, not suppress it, but to delay it.
	For example, the first thing they're going to say is, let's say the water heater is available for next, or the home heating system is available for next heating season.
	Let's imagine what will happen.
	The first thing that will happen is the Department of Energy will say, well, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission must be involved.
	To assess whether this is a danger, because now you're saying it's nuclear and we... Well, now that would be an interesting admission in itself, wouldn't it?
	Right.
	In fact, it would be... I would actually love it if they would say, we must regulate this now, because that would... Would say a nuclear reaction is underway.
	Right.
	Now, then there would be an unbelievable demand by, hopefully, the citizens of the United States, who would say, all right, we agree it's nuclear, everyone agrees it's real, Why is it being slowed down?
	We know we're going to immediately begin to shave the balance of payments, trade deficit, and the pollution, and everything else.
	Why can't we be at least reasonably satisfied, based on the fact that we have radiation instruments monitoring this, and we're not seeing radiation coming out?
	We see no deadly effects.
	The people who have been working on this for years are not getting sick.
	Why can't we have this now?
	And the answer might be, I regret to say, might be, well, we don't know what it is yet.
	We better ban it for a while.
	And the oil companies then, stupid as they are, may participate in that kind of nonsense.
	It would give them, let's say, a few more years of uh... of polluting the planet with their uh... their oil
	so unrealistically next heating seat uh... season ever realistically years and
	years ago no no i hope i'm an optimist despite the fact that i've been
	uh... and we've all in the confusion field and terribly abused neglected by
	this uh... outrageous
	performance of uh... it people if you'd like m i t cal caltech in the department of energy the following eating
	season doctor the following heating season on the well i'm not know i'm
	optimistic i'm not saying we're going to have these home heating units this
	pop this heating season
	i'm saying in the next several years okay ever meaning to three years
	i hope by then since the processes are now so advanced
	i hope we do have these prototype units that are completely reliable
	ready for mass production okay that that would be a very big
	alright caller does that answer your question Yes, one more comment, I guess.
	You put a tax on it, one year at a time?
	I don't know.
	I don't want to be taxed at all.
	Frankly, the free energy, this free freedom that we're going to have is kind of like the free information that we have.
	We now have virtually free information.
	Correct.
	Small charges for WebEx.
	Oh yeah, but they're busily trying to figure out ways to tax it, and they're talking about a per bit tax over modems.
	Yep, I know, but I don't think the people are going to stand for that, frankly, but I hope they don't stand for it.
	We have virtually free information.
	Now we're going to enter the age of virtually free, or essentially free, energy.
	Everything's going to be retrofit.
	We're going to go into an era of dramatically reduced pollution, I trust.
	I hope.
	And by the way, may I stop you there?
	You have looked into such things.
	Doctor, I am convinced that our weather is in the process of a change that I'm not particularly pleased with.
	Environmentally, I see a lot of things going on that I'm not pleased with.
	The ozone hole.
	Holes, I guess, plural now.
	A lot of things are beginning to go on that are adding up to trouble for us.
	If we continue on our present course, do you agree with that?
	I have a limited agreement with that.
	Let me just state, I've studied, for example, the CO2 controversy.
	It's quite an interesting controversy, sort of the opposite of the coal fusion controversy.
	In my opinion, we humans living in the latter part of the 20th century have a very limited range of experience vis-à-vis weather and climate.
	There have been huge changes in climate over the eons that the planet has been around.
	We know that, yes.
	I'm very fond of talking with people like Professor Richard Lindzen at MIT, who's a heretic on the matter of the CO2 global warming business.
	He says, look, we can't be absolutely sure of whether warming is occurring or not, but We do not have to have hysteria about it, okay?
	So he would sort of toss that into the area of, he doesn't really believe it, but it's a question that is open.
	Now my perspective on it is this.
	I think it could be real or it could not be real.
	But furthermore, I will say that the basic assumption of all these doomsday scenarios with respect to global warming is that Carbon dioxide will continue to build up.
	That's because we thought there's no other way of generating electricity or heating homes.
	Exactly.
	Now we have the rug pulled out completely from that scenario.
	Yes.
	We have the very, very real opportunity to eliminate that inexorable climb of the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.
	Well, it's somewhat academic anyway, since it is my understanding that in about 40 years, We will exhaust present supplies of readily available petroleum.
	That's generally agreed, but you know there's some new theories about even that, you know.
	There's the deep earth gas theory of Tommy Gold of Cornell, and there's some evidence for it, that states the following.
	The earth may be saturated with primordial methane, okay, and Gold has been right about many things in the past.
	He's a very brilliant man.
	So, in theory, there might be an almost inexhaustible source of methane.
	And he even goes further.
	He says that oil is not really biogenic.
	It didn't come exclusively from fossil decay.
	It was produced within the Earth.
	So, in some sense, that might not be true.
	But certainly, we all have to agree, as the population of the Earth expands, we cannot realistically continue to burn fossil fuels.
	You can just see it in the cities.
	Numerous, tens of thousands of deaths every year occur, we believe, due to small particulates in the atmosphere.
	Oh look, there's no question about it.
	I was in Bangkok a couple of years ago.
	If you think our air pollution is bad, try Bangkok for a day.
	And about 40% or more of the traffic cops have fatal lung disease.
	Uh, so, I don't need to say more.
	I can believe it.
	Well, you can believe it.
	It's true.
	Wildcard Line, uh, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Malouf.
	Hi.
	It's Keith in San Diego.
	I didn't call it about the, uh, I had to cut a paper about the reverse concept of gravity.
	Of course, it's got a pole.
	Basically, gravity being created by every other mass on any two masses rather than the two masses creating a force that curves around and comes back with a stronger force.
	Actually, space wouldn't be just a big vacuum, or the universe wouldn't be a huge mass of forces.
	Were you on earlier, caller?
	Not today, no.
	Okay.
	We have another caller here who's speculating about theory.
	Same thing, yeah.
	For the year, they've come up with a reverse concept of gravitational push rather than pull at the beginning of the year.
	All right, but regardless of whether it's a push or a pull, I don't think it bears on the questions that we're dealing with here, does it?
	It doesn't really, but there are, I must tell you, in addition to the issue of what physics will explain cold fusion or zero point energy tapping and the like, I must tell you that there are other anomalies that I now take much more seriously within physics, such as Potentially observed anti-gravity effects on magnets and superconductors.
	There have been reports of this.
	We've recounted some of them in Infinite Energy.
	But, you know, we really must get back to basics in science.
	I think this, in fact, by the way, may be one of the most important aspects of the Cold Fusion Revolution.
	Indeed, cleaning up the planet, providing cheap and abundant energy, that's important.
	But perhaps the other most important is often considered here
	the establishment as a result of this is going to suffer such an incredible
	uh... embarrassment to its credibility that is the scientific establishment that many other heretical
	concepts which should be investigated they're not necessarily true
	but they at least should be investigated
	will i think take on greater importance the people are going to say if you guys in the scientific
	establishment with all billions of dollars we gave you if you could create such a
	disaster eliminating from the agenda
	of science and the department of energy this miraculous discovery for
	eight years what else if you screw up
	Oh, you bet.
	One slide to twice shy or something or another.
	This is pretty heavy stuff.
	We're discussing the future of our planet and the people on it.
	No less.
	And also that nasty waste that we're getting ready to store right next to me.
	I have great interest in that.
	We'll be right back.
	This is CBC.
	I think it's time to get ready.
	To realize just what I have been.
	I have been only half of what I am.
	Why is it only fools rush in?
	I And hang him for living love me.
	Call Art Bell.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	618-8255, 1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033, 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	Shall I stay?
	Would it be a sin?
	Good morning from the high desert.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Okay, I've got an interesting text here from Sean David Morton, who's been a guest on this program.
	Doctor, let me read this to you and see if you can add anything to it, or maybe slam it down.
	Last year, I met a scientist that was on his way back from a meeting in Geneva.
	He said a group of 150 scientists met to study a very serious ongoing problem.
	He said That the process underway, the China Syndrome as you will, nuclear meltdown at Chernobyl, had now eaten 800 feet down through the planet, was headed toward a huge underground aquifer, a sea he called it.
	He said that when the nuclear material hit the water, at about 2400 feet, it would either explode, or cause a crater 5 miles deep and 140 miles wide, or would poison much of the Russian and European water supply.
	He said this would happen by 2004.
	Do you have any information on this or any ideas on a solution?
	How to stop it?
	First of all, I'm not sure this is a valid report.
	Second, as soon as I heard a crater five miles wide or deep, did I hear?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Essentially impossible We're talking about fissionable material that's there, and I don't know whether it's migrating or falling or whatever it's doing, but an atomic bomb, a fission bomb, would not do that.
	Would not do that.
	A fusion bomb, a thermonuclear weapon, would have trouble making the crater five miles deep without being perfected.
	So I hardly think that the fissionable material that does still exist, obviously, within Chernobyl, and I don't know whether it's migrating or not migrating, uh... could ever cause a catastrophe of that sort not to
	say that your noble is not a very very serious problem
	uh... and i know the containment is rapidly deteriorate that could be i got
	not up on the latest with it i don't want to pre-judge anything about what may be
	leaking out this could be a perhaps an exaggeration of
	of of uh... more limited problem
	but is certainly not going to explode and create a you know multi-mile crater
	All right, so that part you would rule out.
	Obviously, though, if this very hot material hit very cold water, there would be very serious consequences.
	It could be steam pressures and so forth.
	Yes, it's a serious matter.
	By the way, I supported nuclear power, not that kind of nuclear power.
	The Russian kind of reactors are terribly dangerous.
	We all acknowledge that at this point.
	But the reactors in the U.S., by and large, are very safe.
	And before the advent of Cold Fusion, I would have said that we need more nuclear power, even though it was politically untenable.
	But I would say this... Well, that's really still true today, isn't it?
	In other words, Cold Fusion, at its best, is not ready to replace nuclear power plants.
	No, it is not.
	But it could very quickly.
	Okay?
	I would use the paradigm of aviation, and I would use the paradigm of the computer.
	Now, many of your listeners may not be aware that between 1903 and 1908, the Wright Brothers were flying in broad daylight in Ohio, and they were still dismissed by the establishment.
	Scientific American, the major Eastern media, major all media, refused to acknowledge they had done it.
	Of course, what happened was, once the technology began to be believed, as it did in 1908, after a demonstration in Fort Myers, Virginia, it was a rapid scale-up, and we have a very quick introduction of the airplane into World War I, and then into commercial service.
	Computers, personal computers in particular, and even large-frame computers, came up in this century very rapidly, in a very unexpected way, and have obviously revolutionized everything.
	So, I believe that once the first co-fusion devices break through into the marketplace, and I think that can happen... Then the acceleration will be rapid.
	It will be very rapid.
	What we have to do is get beyond... What we're at now is the stage of disbelief.
	And if I may say, the most critical thing that people in the state of Nevada could do would be to demand, I mean demand, of their representatives that an investigation be made.
	About the ability of the coal fusion process to remediate nuclear waste, which obviously affects them on a very personal basis, there should be holy hell raised in the state of Nevada.
	Starting there, the coal fusion revolution will spread everywhere.
	Then, you see, by accepting the fact, as they will rapidly find out when they observe this process and have it validated, that must imply by its very nature that the coal fusion heat process is also real.
	Sure, alright.
	Doctor, I have a question for you.
	We have massive amounts of nuclear waste presently generally being stored in water below the reactors and in some cases even above ground.
	Now, how quickly, how efficiently if it began to work could cold fusion begin to eat this
	stuff up well my based on what I've seen already
	the data of two independent companies now doing this very same thing okay yes they can do with thorium and
	uranium there is no reason why it couldn't happen with the other
	radio nuclides the ones that are less a massive
	There's no reason at all.
	In fact, in the latest issue of Infinite Energy, we have a theoretical discussion of exactly how that could be done.
	So my assumption is, if there were a team of good scientists and engineers put to work on this, Hell, the process could go to work almost immediately.
	In other words, what they would have to do, of course, is get it beyond the laboratory scale to an industrial process.
	I understand you're saying the process could ensue quickly.
	I'm asking how quickly would it actually begin to consume substantial quantities of high-level waste?
	Well, the sheer volume of it, I don't know the exact volume of all the high-level waste.
	Not sure any of us do.
	Right.
	But it is not so immense, given the power of nuclear power, that it is not unthinkable that it could be eaten up in fairly short order.
	It's our guessing off the top of my head, just the top of my head.
	If the process were commercialized and were put into appropriate Activation?
	I wouldn't see why.
	Again, this is a guess, sort of an intellectual imagining here as an engineer.
	Perhaps in a decade it could all be eliminated.
	A decade?
	All right.
	You know, our senators have been doing their dead-level best to get this high-level waist-dump diverted the hell out of Nevada.
	Right.
	I would suggest they contact you.
	Have you had any contact with them?
	There are several congressmen, former Congressman Walker of the House Science and Space Committee, a very influential man.
	He, in Popular Science 1985, acknowledged that Cold Fusion was real.
	He acknowledged that.
	There is a prestigious congressman, of course he's now retired and doing nothing for this, it seems to me.
	We have no support at the presidential and vice-presidential level.
	Occasionally we will approach a congressman or a senator and get some nice winks from them, but that's about it.
	These people are out to lunch, but the fact is you have in Nevada the key linchpin of this entire problem, which is why I'm so glad I'm on your program.
	If you could possibly get these Nevadan congressmen and governors and citizens of Nevada To demand an investigation of what they're about to see on national television, and which I could, I will go anywhere, any place, believe me, to convince them that we are dealing with a reality here.
	Okay?
	I will show them the data.
	Okay?
	I will tell them why I believe it's true.
	I will have them talk to the very lab people who did the tests.
	We will demonstrate it right before their very eyes if that needs to be, if national television isn't good enough.
	And we can then start the whole process rolling of re-investigating this outrageous report of 1989.
	All right.
	On Good Morning America, the segment that is going to air this morning, will there be discussion of the high-level nuclear waste problem as it is associated to the cold fusion process, or are they going to just demonstrate the cold fusion process?
	Do you know?
	No, I do know.
	If the program airs this morning, as I trust it will.
	Yes.
	There should be a time-lapse portrayal, an actual experiment conducted on the premises of the Clean Energy Technology Corporation in Sarasota, Florida.
	A time-lapse showing that the Geiger counter readings on the cell lower substantially over a period of hours.
	There was more data that was shown on a chart form back down at the American Nuclear Society meeting where we had a session on this, and it was quite clear to me that Dr. Patterson had accumulated remarkable evidence of the decrease.
	So yes, it will be portrayed on national television.
	And I hope that they will, they obviously must refer to the I can only hope that they adequately explain the implications for a public that's pretty numb, frankly.
	What's at stake here?
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Eugene Maloff.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, Doctor, this is a great experience for me to be on the air with Art and you.
	Talking about such significant changes that are coming about in this area, are you aware of Mr. Joseph Newman and his theory of gyroscopic particles?
	I am familiar with Joseph Newman.
	In fact, I recently met him at the 4th International New Energy Symposium in Denver.
	Joseph Newman was seriously abused by the system.
	There's absolutely no doubt about it.
	He should have been granted a patent.
	There was clear evidence that he had an important process.
	How real it was still remains somewhat of a mystery to me.
	We did write an article about him and his travails.
	I respect him.
	I think my own humble opinion is that he was so abused by the system that he kind of went off the deep end a bit and got very angry.
	And is kind of being, in a way, his own worst enemy today, but I wish him well.
	One thing I know for sure is theory, whether right or wrong, in my own opinion, I'm not so sure about it, but I'm sure he would be very sure about it.
	I do believe that other devices are ratifying what he said.
	Well, you can understand the frustration that would finally drive somebody off the deep end.
	You can understand that.
	Oh, I can.
	No matter whether the process was real or not.
	Right.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Malove.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	Dr. Malove, I really enjoyed the conference in Denver.
	And I certainly agree that Newman's presentation there was disturbing because of his experience.
	But a couple of the things that I picked up there that were most interesting to me was the information from Dr. John Moreland about the history of these actions.
	Going back to Le Bon's work in 1907-1908, as far as the physics and radioactivity are concerned.
	Right.
	Apparently, what this caller is bringing to the fore, we keep encountering very unusual new anomalies, or resurrecting old ones, should I say.
	There was a fellow by the name of T. Henry Moray, who allegedly had a rather powerful electric generator, was witnessed by many people, and then it sort of disappeared.
	Many people have had these things kind of disappear.
	But now, with hindsight, physicists are looking into this, good people like Moreland, and they're finding that, in all likelihood, these people have these things.
	And the particular units that we're talking about used radioactive materials, radium, to create electricity directly.
	My understanding is this summer, at the Tesla Symposium in Colorado Springs, Dr. Brown will be there to demonstrate a 200-watt electric generator based on this radioactive material.
	We'll see.
	But clearly, there's a patent position on it.
	There are past reports of moiré and so forth.
	Most fascinating.
	Thanks for bringing it up.
	All right.
	Ease to the Rockies.
	You're on air with Dr. Melove.
	Hi.
	Good morning.
	Good morning.
	My name is Stephanie and I'm from Gentryville, Indiana.
	Okay.
	And the reason why I'm calling is my husband and I have been using a corn-burning stove for approximately eight years.
	Corn-burning?
	Corn-burning.
	Just shelled corn.
	Okay.
	And we think this is a great idea about the cold fusion and the heating.
	Would that also work on air conditioning?
	Oh, sure.
	I'm sorry.
	Absolutely.
	Any energy source.
	You see, any energy source is capable of doing ultimately, of course, what any other one is doing.
	Except, of course, solar power and wind power are very weak in many respects and have to obey the rotation of the Earth and whether the sun is out and the weather and so forth.
	But coal fusion is very compact.
	Now, you bring up corn burning.
	We have encountered some rather interesting new work on biomass that was used in underwater arcs, that is a company out in Colorado, is quite literally dissolving organic materials in water and they are creating electric arcs underwater with this and producing a gas.
	Now the gas has very unusual properties.
	It appears from our testing, from their testing so far, that more energy is coming out of that process in the gas than is going in in the form of electricity.
	That's a preliminary assessment.
	So, you know, as strange as it sounds, since coal fusion we know is real, it is not out of the question that some of these very simple systems like carbon arcs underwater themselves are producing anomalous energy.
	We have seen excellent evidence that the carbon arcs are producing transmuted elements, so we have to watch them very carefully.
	These all sound It's very similar.
	In other words, you have a process, you have more energy than you should have, nobody can figure out where it comes from.
	If I had to make a bet, I'd be betting that it's all coming from the same source.
	Which, of course, I have no idea what it is, but perhaps Richard Hoagland does.
	Well, it might be related to Richard Hoagland.
	I know a good friend of mine is of the opinion that it is some kind of hyperdimensional Or I would call it zero-point energy.
	Exactly.
	It may be.
	My own feeling is that it could well be that the zero-point energy is somehow mediating these nuclear reactions.
	It may be the case.
	Exactly.
	But what we have to get absolutely clear in people's minds is theories are wonderful and interesting, but the most important thing of all is the reality of the experiments and the reality of the commercialization.
	That's the key.
	I agree.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Melloff.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Chris in Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Hi, Chris.
	I'll be seeing that package I was telling you about later on this month.
	Alright.
	And my questions are, Dr. Mallett, are there any books or information that we can research to learn more about this so we can conduct experiments on our own?
	How about his website for one?
	Okay, and can we write to you and have you, you know, we got an idea, we're working on it, can we write to you and see what we're doing?
	Alright, alright, yeah, let's do that.
	We're at the end of the time anyway.
	Doctor, how would you like people to communicate?
	Email, writing, calling, what?
	Oh, everything, but let's give a post office box out, if you don't mind.
	I don't mind.
	Okay, it's post office box 2816 in Concord, New Hampshire, 03302.
	But of course, we also have a fax, which is 603 2-2-4-5-9-7-5.
	I'm glad to try to answer your questions or send you information.
	All right.
	That would be P.O.
	Box 2-8-1-6 in Concord, New Hampshire, 03-3-0-2.
	And your fax number is area code 6-0-3-2-2-4-5-9-7-5.
	Correct?
	Absolutely.
	All right.
	And everybody listening should be watching ABC's Good Morning America.
	As they're going to bring out a water heater that's been operating now for some months using cold fusion.
	That is correct.
	Absolutely amazing.
	It is going to happen.
	We'll just put the little caveat on that, of course, you know, TV schedules are subject to change, but we have had no information that it will not be today.
	We were told that it was going to be today, and I trust that it will be.
	But if by some remote chance... I know.
	It all depends on the news.
	Right.
	Doctor, I thank you.
	It has been a wonderful time on the air, and we will have you back again.
	Thank you so much, Art.
	Good night.
	That's Dr. Eugene Maloff, Editor-in-Chief of Infinite Energy Magazine.
	They are not minor stakes, are they?
	Well, I thank you all, and in some markets, we will be back with more in a moment.
	In other markets, it's good night.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
	Thank you for watching.
	Thank you for watching.
	I'm turning every time to some secret place inside.
	Watch it in slow motion as you turn around and say Say my brother
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1222.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Never hesitate to become a Baby Boy.
	Open lines just ahead.
	Good morning everybody.
	Isn't it funny how old songs come back to haunt you?
	Would you like to take her breath away?
	I know how.
	All right, we are going to open line to you now.
	Anything you want to talk about is fair game.
	It's up to you.
	So if you have something on your mind, that is what this hour is going to be devoted to.
	Tomorrow night, we're going to be talking to Jim Mars, who has authored a very, very controversial book called Alien Agenda.
	I'm sure that many of you have heard about it.
	If not, you certainly will.
	Tomorrow night, you're not going to want to miss that.
	Jim Mars and Alien Agenda.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, sir.
	How are you today?
	I'm fine.
	I have to apologize for my pick of silver charm.
	Well, you missed that one.
	But, true to form, I didn't go bet, so ha ha ha ha ha!
	Well, I think that the other horse cheated, anyway.
	It was illegal drafting.
	What was the other horse's name?
	Gold?
	Touch Gold.
	Touch Gold, that's it.
	Cheated.
	It was drafting.
	Drafting around the corner there.
	You can't win them all.
	But my unofficial prediction that I had on your prediction show, my real prediction is number 71, which hasn't occurred yet, but will.
	My unofficial prediction, excuse me, I'm having trouble speaking this morning, my unofficial prediction was that you would be simulcast on TV and na-na-na-na-na, you are now.
	Well, well... Hey, hey, hey, don't dim and hot me, Bubba.
	You know I got you.
	Alright, thank you.
	We will review that one, of course, at the end of the year.
	Simulcast on TV.
	Not quite simulcast, but it's pretty damn close.
	Close enough to call that a ding ding ding ding.
	No question about it.
	It is the cams that I have set up in here.
	It was kind of a joint effort.
	Keith Rowland acquired some software.
	I had the capture cards and the video and all the rest of it.
	I got it set up with a sequencer and As a matter of fact, I've got a little Chiron generator that I'm going to get attached to all this in the next week or so.
	And we're going to keep expanding the capability.
	And the Chiron generator will allow me to put little messages up there in the photograph for you.
	So, I'm going to have more fun with this than anybody ought to be allowed to have.
	It is kind of neat.
	There's no question about it.
	This technology is nothing short of absolutely amazing.
	If you go to my website, There I will be doing my radio program.
	Now, for how long this will be interesting, I don't know.
	Frankly, whether I would be interested in watching some guy do a radio program, I don't know.
	I can't tell you that I would.
	It's just something that we are trying.
	And we're always trying new things, and I think when you stop trying new things, you begin to atrophy.
	So, I'm all for it.
	And we will continue to use it for as long as you like it, and we will continue, no doubt, to improve it.
	And one day, yes, I'm sure the web will deliver real-time video along with the audio.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Hi, this is Julie from Washington State.
	Hello, Julie.
	Hi, how are you?
	Fine.
	Good.
	I was curious, as I was listening the other night, when you had the guy on about the reversals.
	Yes.
	And I was wondering possibly when he might be back on, because we were listening, and I was absolutely baffled by some of the stuff that was on.
	Well, we just had him on, so I can't answer that question.
	Of course, David will be back, but I can't give you a date now.
	You can't give me a date now, huh?
	No, of course not.
	I just had him on, so... I know, but it was just... I don't know.
	Some of the stuff that... Some of the reversals and stuff that he had on from NASA was quite interesting.
	Interesting?
	Very interesting.
	I would use a different word.
	But yes, it was, and yes, he'll be back.
	That was probably his fourth or fifth appearance on the program.
	Really?
	I just now, actually, I just now heard about it, and I just was listening, and it was, it struck me.
	I understand.
	Yes.
	So I would very much like to hear him again.
	All right.
	Your request is registered.
	Okie dokie.
	Well, thanks very much.
	Okay, thank you.
	Take care.
	David John Oates.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Good morning, R. Did you get that email I sent you on the parody of you and Lord's Prayer?
	No.
	Now, I haven't looked at my email.
	I didn't have time before I went on the air, so I'm sure it's awaiting me.
	Right.
	Okay.
	I just wanted to say hi to you this morning.
	I'm trying to log back on the Internet to listen to your show right now, and I can't log on, so that's why I'm trying to call you, but I wasn't sure.
	I'll try to log back on so I can hear you.
	All right.
	Bye.
	Take care.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	KQMS, right in California.
	There you are.
	Here I am.
	Hey, you know, just for that guy that picked Silver Charm and blew it?
	Yeah.
	Because I know he's listening.
	This is the quickening.
	Anything could happen.
	You could show up to my house for dinner.
	Anyways, did you watch the news?
	NBC News?
	Last night?
	Let me see, did I?
	No, I think I watched CNN last night.
	Well, Tom Brokaw was interviewing some guy and he was making comments about Racism and how we should conduct ourselves in American society and stuff like that.
	And actually, he really pissed me off because I can't... One of the things he said was that we should not be proud of our race and that it's wrong.
	And you know what?
	Ancestor worship is part of my spiritual heritage.
	So how can I not be proud of my race?
	I'm not sure they're exactly the same thing.
	Well, you know, I understand the gist of what he's saying.
	I understand what he's saying, too, and he's full of it.
	I have no problem.
	You know what?
	Look at all, there's millions of kinds of species of animals.
	Don't you think humans are the same?
	There's all kinds of different humans.
	Big deal.
	You know, and I'm really tired of people trying to tell me how to think.
	Well, me too.
	And actually, I don't listen to them anymore and I suggest to you the same thing.
	Well, okay.
	You know, I'm so glad you had Stan Tannin on last night.
	Wasn't he good?
	The night before, was it last night?
	Absolutely awesome.
	Yes, he's absolutely awesome, you know.
	I can't believe all this hoopla is coming out about a code being in the Bible, because lots of people have known it for thousands of years.
	Again, I want to say this, thank you.
	I want to say that if there is a code in the Bible, and everybody seems to agree there is, then it seems to me that that code would be something far more profound Then some sort of predictive Edgar Cayce-type thing where we will get the name or find out that somebody is going to be assassinated at some future date, that the Bible and a code in it would be far more profound.
	And without going into all the details of that program, you should get it on tape, by the way.
	Oh, yes!
	By the way, with respect to Mr. Tennant's program last night, or our guest tonight, Or any other program we do with a guest.
	You can get a copy of it by calling 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, I just had one quick comment and a discussion point.
	Sure.
	First of all, I think we should do a reverse speech on JC.
	You better have him on as a guest.
	Well, I did that once, and we've got an hour of tape on J.C., and I've had so many requests that maybe I'll send it off to, uh, David.
	Okay, and, um, second of all, you had a guest on the other night when you did your kind of impromptu witch night thing.
	Oh, yes.
	And, um, the doctor, I believe it was, at the end of the night?
	Yes.
	Um, he's completely wrong.
	There are no repercussions from casting curses.
	Well, now you're... Unless I'm building up some sort of karmic bank account, because nothing's ever happened to me.
	Uh-huh.
	You might say that today, and tomorrow, you walk across the road and you're flattened by an 18-wheeler.
	Still, yeah, but seven years now it's been going on, I think I would have seen something by this point.
	I tend to think that, um... You slammed a curse on somebody?
	Oh, many.
	Many, many, many.
	Many?
	Nothing bad has ever happened?
	Well, um, my long-distance phone bill's a little bit high sometimes.
	Other than that, nothing really.
	I believe what happens is when you allow yourself to feel guilt about what you've done, it kind of brings it back on you like a psychic boomerang.
	Yeah, I know, but like can a camera when you least expect it?
	Well, we shall see, I suppose.
	Uh-huh.
	Well, I'll look forward to hearing from you on a regular basis, and if I don't, I'll assume the worst.
	That's all right.
	No problem.
	All right.
	Bye.
	Take care.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	Hi.
	Let me get the radio.
	Oh, yes.
	Turn that sucker off.
	And tell us where you are calling from.
	This is Dan.
	I'm calling from Texas.
	How are you today?
	Okay.
	I have several just quick points.
	On the cold fusion gas that you had tonight, the radioactive material, there are other nuclear reactions that go on besides just the fast nuclear reaction.
	That's what you get in fission.
	And they've had several incidences of nuclear fizzles.
	Where you almost have a critical mass, and all you're doing when you have fission is you get enough of the material together that it dissolves itself from its own radiation.
	Yes.
	It's a chain reaction within it.
	Yes.
	And it's entirely likely that at the subatomic level there's other, there's a lot of things that make up the atom.
	There's the strange number and all kinds of... Things that we don't know about.
	Things that, well, we know about, but we don't know what to do.
	In other words, reactions taking place between elements that we just simply don't understand yet.
	And what you may have there is it's changing because of some reaction that we don't know.
	Right.
	Right.
	Having said all that, at the end of the day, if they found something that is practical and can be used and can replace this fossil fuel we're burning now, and we don't investigate it, we're out of our minds.
	Absolutely.
	Moreover, if they can prove that a high-level nuclear waste can be literally eaten alive, And we don't pursue it, we're out of our minds.
	One thing I'd like to know from the guest, sorry I didn't get on while he was still there, was what are they finding that it's turning into?
	Because when radiation, when a new product decays, it turns into something.
	He talked about helium 3 and 4.
	Well that was in the fusion process.
	That would be generated from the hydrogen.
	But I was wondering what the uranium and thorium that he was talking about being, the radiation decrease?
	Yes.
	I was wondering what that was decaying into?
	Would have been a good question.
	I'm sorry we didn't ask that.
	Well, maybe he'll be on again.
	All right, take care.
	Maybe they don't understand the full process or how that high level stuff is being converted and what, into what?
	Yes, good question.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Morning, I'm Steven Phoenix.
	Hello, Steve.
	How are you doing this morning?
	Okay, Steve.
	That's good.
	Listen, I missed this reversal guy.
	You can tell me on the air after I hang up what it was.
	I don't even know what it was about.
	And I want to ask you this, being Earthquake, I haven't heard about from Gordon.
	What's cooking with him?
	Are you going to have him on the show again?
	He's in, I'm not sure what the right word is, a sabbatical.
	I see.
	I see.
	OK, just checking.
	All right, just answering then.
	And with regard to the reversal show, that was a five-hour program involving reversals of the two NASA representatives that we had here and Victor.
	And I could not possibly cover all there would be to say, so I suggest you get a tape of that show.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art.
	Thank you very much for having show after show of uplifting guests, truly.
	I think that it's a fantastic book that you wrote and it seems to me that the convergence
	between all the things that are possible and all the things that are also possible and
	the negative are so bewildering.
	I wonder if you ever read Heinlein's story, The Year of the Jackpot?
	Yes.
	In the old galaxy magazine?
	Yes, absolutely.
	Wasn't that kind of a wonderful story?
	Yes.
	And I still, you know, I hearken back, thank you, to something I said earlier tonight in passing.
	Of all places on the Travel Channel, yesterday, they said, think about it, it was exactly 66 years from the moment the Wright brothers flew their first Airplane.
	Glider.
	Airplane.
	Whatever you want to call it.
	Took flight.
	And got above Earth.
	Until man walked on the moon.
	In the first Apollo mission to the moon.
	Sixty-six years.
	Now you think really hard about that.
	As we discuss things quickening.
	Think about that.
	Sixty-six years.
	Compare that to the progress of all years prior to that.
	And now try and project where we will be 66 years from now.
	Totally mind-boggling.
	And since he mentioned my book, thank you.
	If you would like an autographed copy of The Quickening, we are coming down toward the end of the line.
	All I can assure you from day to day now, and I will give you that assurance today, is if you get your order in, you will get an autographed copy.
	Do not wait.
	The number to call is 1-800-864-7991.
	is 1-800-864-7991. That's 1-800-864-7991.
	Continue trying to get through until you do.
	East of the Rockies, whoops.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hi, how are you tonight?
	Okay.
	Doing pretty good, huh?
	What can I do for you?
	I'm out here in California.
	Yes.
	Well, I was hoping to help you out a little bit.
	I've been listening to your shows, and they've really been working out well.
	Except, the thing about this is, when some of your guests get challenged, you know, With ideas which are very important to experiment with.
	These type of ideas.
	What ideas, sir?
	Well, for example, you take an idea like space people.
	Space people?
	Well, space machines, space ships, space people.
	You see, when they get challenged the idea that there has never really been any kind of diggings.
	We've got diggings of bringing men up from millions of years ago or whatever.
	In all the archeological studies, with all these spacecrafts, with all the satellites, with everything coming in, we have not got one single space object, outer space object, except a meteor, anywhere in any museum that you have pictures of things.
	Well, how do you know we don't?
	You say that.
	On display, we don't.
	That's true in public.
	Does somebody have them?
	Does the government have them?
	That's a different question.
	I'm going to go to the bathroom.
	Call Art Bell toll free.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	To the phones West of the Rockies.
	Hi.
	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	To the phones west of the Rockies.
	Hi.
	Hey, how's it going there?
	It's going, sir.
	I'm going to be down there in a room.
	Turn it off, actually.
	All the way off.
	What?
	All the way off, actually.
	It's off enough.
	It was just a little bit out of reach.
	Okay, we'll go right ahead, sir.
	Okay, do you realize this year, following the movie 2001, how 9000 was to be built?
	Or next year, 98?
	No, I didn't know that.
	Okay, I got a question for you.
	Oh, gosh, I lost my train of thought.
	Oh, I hate when that happens.
	Okay, no, I'm bad.
	Have you done the experiment with the, um, what is this, uh, uh, MorseCat calling from, uh, Seattle, Washington on Como 1000?
	Have I done what?
	Uh, calling on Como 1000, MorseCat.
	That's my, that's my, my name.
	I don't, I don't know what you're talking about, sir.
	Now, um, the experiment you proposed where you had everyone think I'm a UFO.
	Oh!
	No, no, we have not done that yet.
	You have not done that?
	And I guarantee you we are going to do it.
	Okay, well, I want to propose you an interesting thought.
	Now, I'm an individual who does not believe in aliens.
	That's cool.
	But the next time you do that, I want to collect... I don't, you know, I don't believe in them either.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, really.
	You do say that.
	I don't believe in them.
	I mean, that indicates faith, and I don't make a leap of faith, you know, until I see one, touch one, shake hands with one.
	Say, you know, how's Andromeda or wherever you're from.
	Right.
	No, I don't believe in one.
	I am interested and I suggest to you that it's more probable than not that they do exist.
	Right.
	But be careful about those words.
	I know, but for myself, I've got to see it to believe it.
	I follow that old train of thought.
	Well, we agree then.
	All right.
	But whenever you do decide to do that, Um, I want to propose an, uh, an experiment.
	An actual, um, alien abduction.
	By me.
	Do you want to be abducted?
	Yeah, just for sure, because I don't... Why go to such trouble?
	I mean, why not just have them come down and hover over the space needle for a while?
	Wouldn't that be cool?
	Uh, no.
	Because following, um, every movie, every book that we supposedly have when they come down, um, there's always someone that, uh, provokes them, pisses them off, shoots them, kills them.
	Or as Independence Day?
	Well, why would you assume it would be any different?
	I've already had calls from people who've said, I saw a saucer, and I shot at it.
	Right.
	I'd say it's still too far-fetched.
	I mean, even if they were to shoot at it, that'd be like shooting a spitball at a missile.
	Well, that's always been my view, too.
	A stupid thing to do.
	If you see an anomalous object, a saucer, or something that appears to be defying gravity, or something that appears to be not fully visible in our dimension, shooting at it is not your best first choice, or should not be.
	Because assuming they have the technology to be doing what they appear to be doing, you don't want to get them angry.
	Basic stuff.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Right.
	Hello, Art.
	Hello.
	I've been listening to your show about six months.
	I'm in Denver, Colorado.
	Yes, sir.
	Outside the Aurora, home of Star Trek convention.
	But this fuel thing, this cold fusion that you had on tonight.
	Yes.
	There was another gentleman I heard here about a year ago.
	He had a fuel called A-21, and I heard him on the Chuck Harder show, Freedom Network.
	What he had was a fuel emulsifier.
	Which mixed water and fuel together, which, you know, physically they say it's impossible, but this guy does it with a multifier, and he was working with Caterpillar.
	But, uh... It's not impossible at all!
	Water injection has been long shown to increase fuel efficiency.
	Right.
	My love of aviation, I want to ask you, this happened about six months ago there on your show, I was listening back in Canton, Ohio, before I moved out here.
	So the gentleman called in one night, he was a pilot, and he was flying a Velocity aircraft and was flying toward Area 51.
	Oh, yes.
	And he heard the guy shot down.
	Was there anything more that happened on that or did anyone hear anything more about that?
	No.
	Nor would you expect to.
	Any word from Madman Markham?
	No, and I'm concerned about Madman.
	Seriously concerned.
	Because all the other people you had on interviewing different shows about time travel, it fell into his category.
	He was right on the right track.
	Well, he was on a track.
	Anyway, alright, thank you very much for the call.
	No, Madman, I have been trying to contact without success and my level of concern regarding his welfare is rising rapidly.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Going once, going twice, going first time, call or line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Yeah, this is Anthony from Los Angeles.
	Yes, sir.
	Your age, 51?
	Well, I can claim that for a few more days.
	I can claim it for about two more weeks.
	I see.
	I was going to say that, two things.
	The first thing is that you haven't commented on the fifth element.
	I haven't seen it yet.
	Oh, God, it's terrific.
	Is it?
	I've seen it in Piper LaPraise's seven times.
	Wow.
	And I'm not a kid, but with the kids I've seen it.
	The other thing I wanted to comment on was Atlas Shrugged.
	Do you remember Rand's story of John Galt?
	Yes.
	Isn't that interesting about Cold Fusion?
	It's like this is the engine that could provide or go someplace and just say, hey, you guys just want to destroy the world by selling arms.
	You're exactly right.
	Isn't that interesting?
	Art, I'm glad we both lived this long.
	Me too.
	And I loved your book.
	Thank you.
	Oh, thank you.
	The Quickening, yes.
	That is a good book.
	I sincerely mean it.
	Not just push my book.
	It's a good book.
	It's an important book.
	A very, very, very important book.
	Please read it.
	Eventually, I suppose, if you cannot afford to buy it, it'll show up in a library.
	It'll show up in a place where you can read it.
	Please read it.
	It really is an important book.
	If you can afford to buy it, you can still get an autographed copy just by calling 1-800-864-7991.
	1-800-864-7991.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	You're a dial tone.
	seven nine nine one one eight hundred
	eight six four seven nine nine one east of the rockies you're would have been on the air you're
	a dial tone west of the rockies you're on the air hi
	hi this is dave from tracy california Hi, Dave.
	Hi, I'm just hoping that this cold fusion technology comes out in time to, you know, save our planet as far as the atmosphere goes.
	So do I. And this acid rain and flooding across the Midwest.
	You know, but then our government can't even, you know, send out a disaster relief bill.
	So, you know, and these are the same people who are going to have to fund this project.
	I know.
	I also have one other thing on remote viewing.
	I was reading in a talk on Voyage.
	I was wondering, can they travel back to ancient Egypt and find out how these pyramids were built?
	Yes.
	They can?
	Yes.
	And, I don't know, what does Dr. Courtney Brown, or what's his opinion on how they were built?
	I have no idea.
	Dr. Courtney Brown is a person I have not talked with in some time, and will not until the subject of our last conversation becomes cleared up.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air, good morning.
	Good morning, Art.
	This is Mike from Glendale.
	Hi, Mike.
	I was wondering if we could shift back quickly to last week you had that expert witchcraft person on.
	Oh, yes, in the last half hour.
	Yeah, and I'm sure he knows his stuff.
	My only disagreement with him is that... Well, now wait a minute now.
	I had a lady on.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	That's right.
	That's correct.
	With her, I'm sorry.
	Okay.
	My disagreement would be that belief in spells, and you asked her this question, In my view, it only serves to, one, empower that person who has been harassing you, and two, as well as opening up psychological problems on yourself and bringing you down to their level.
	I think that atheists and Christian truths, science and God, state that whatever that person sent you, whether it be a letter, a doll, etc., it will always belong to them and not to you.
	I have always felt that the good Lord helps those who help themselves.
	I have always felt that the good Lord helps those who help
	themselves.
	So when I have a score to settle, I really don't want to get back into that again, but
	I don't depend on karmic solutions.
	I don't depend on spells.
	I'm curious about them.
	I don't depend on magic.
	I depend on my own action, and so if I have a score to settle, I settle it, and I hope that I'm doing the righteous thing, and I depend on the old, God helps those who help themselves.
	He does not I think.
	At least the kind of guy that I think about.
	I expect you to sit on your butt and request for him to do what you should be doing for yourself.
	First time caller line, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello, turn your radio off, please.
	That's good.
	Are you there?
	No, I'm somewhere else.
	Where in the hell are you?
	Here and there.
	Or as I should say, as long as I'm there, it's okay.
	Can I tell you where I've been?
	I've been to San Diego.
	I've been to Augusta, Maine.
	I've been to Louisiana.
	I've been to Boston, Massachusetts.
	I've been to every place in this country, and I've not been able to get in touch with you until, what, right now?
	Well, there are less amazing things in the world.
	Here you are.
	I want to tell you one thing.
	Number one, I bought both your books, and I liked the first one.
	The second one is nice, and I'm still reading it.
	The first one, I got the first one after the second one, and you know what?
	I love you, dude.
	Well, thank you.
	I'm Al from Phoenix.
	I'm in Phoenix right now.
	You're in Phoenix.
	Sounds like you're a traveling man.
	Well, I appreciate that.
	The first one, which you said you got after the second one, which you're reading now, was an autobiography.
	With a lot of photographs, and it was for those who are curious about me.
	It was called The Art of Talk.
	That was the first book, and by the way, it is still available.
	So if you want insights as to who I am, and why I do what I do, that book will give them to you, because it was a totally honest book.
	So is the second one.
	They're very different animals.
	The first book, about me.
	The second book, about us.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Hi.
	Hello, Art.
	This is Jim calling from Kenai Country.
	K-E-N-I Anchorage.
	You bet.
	A couple things.
	One, Bismuth Magnesium.
	And also, I understand you had a cold fusion discussion on earlier that I missed.
	I wondered if you'd been talking to her about Ed Storms.
	About who?
	Ed Storms.
	He's a retired chemist from Los Alamos.
	Well, first of all, it was not a she.
	It was a he that I had on.
	Well, Ed would fit that.
	Secondly, I've never heard of the person you're talking about, so the answer is no.
	Oh, I'm sorry about that.
	Anyway, he has quite a bibliography of the published materials.
	To get to my main point, I was looking at F. S. Williams' Michael Faraday bibliography.
	And that led me to the experimental researches in electricity and magnetism and so forth.
	Faraday discovered the principles of diamagnetic materials and the properties they have.
	What he would do is suspend the item that he was investigating on a silk thread.
	He had a huge electromagnet he made from a large anchor chain link that he had.
	Yes, all of this to try and determine a mass or weight change.
	Well, no, he didn't do that.
	He was surprised with the magnetism because unlike paramagnetism, he couldn't induce a magnetic property.
	However, it would go to the southwest, northeast, or North, West, South, East, and not be any kind of polarity, but would always go diagonal to the lines of force in the electromagnet.
	Alright, well that's interesting, but again, if you're experimenting with diamagnetic or anti-magnetic materials, or materials you believe to have those properties, you are trying to measure, or need to measure, either a reduction in mass or weight, which would indicate A resistance to, no matter how you view gravity as a push or a pull, a resistance to or a shield from it.
	Hence you would look for a change in the weight or the mass of the object suspended.
	First time caller line, you're on the air, hello.
	Going once, going twice, go on, east of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Hi Eric, this is Bob from northeastern Pennsylvania.
	Hi Bob.
	I was wondering if there's been any talk about General Partin's bomb damage assessment of the Oklahoma City bombing.
	Well, months and months and months ago, yes, there was a very great deal of it, sure.
	Yeah, okay.
	Because it seems like a very plausible theory, you know, based on his analysis, and he seems to be generally qualified.
	Well, it's a theory.
	Okay, thanks, Art.
	You're welcome, sir.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air, good morning.
	Good morning.
	This is Dan from Fairbanks.
	Hi Dan.
	I just want to say I got your book and I read it and I thought it was great.
	Thank you.
	You're referring to the latest?
	Yes.
	The Quickening.
	Good.
	Yeah, it was a real easy book to read.
	Good.
	I have to thank you for turning me on to several good authors.
	I've probably only read half a dozen books or less in my lifetime and I've probably read that many in the last year.
	Oh my.
	Well, thank you.
	That's what makes it worth doing.
	And that is why I continue to do it.
	Sometimes it is trivial.
	I just want to say thanks for having people on that make it interesting to listen to and
	to read their information.
	Well thank you.
	That's what makes it worth doing.
	And that is why I continue to do it.
	Sometimes it is trivial.
	Sometimes it's fun.
	Sometimes it's serious.
	But it's always different.
	I try not to do the same thing again and again and again.
	It would be harder for me, in fact, than you.
	You?
	You can turn off the radio.
	Turn the dial.
	Go listen to something else.
	Me?
	I've got to be here five hours every night.
	It would be tedious indeed if I always knew what was going to happen.
	I'm glad I don't.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes.
	I got a lot of interference, maybe it's cleared up a little bit now.
	I was a while ago on an Art Bell Show.
	You were on, you were on earlier?
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	No, a fellow called in about fusion material.
	Yes, mm-hmm.
	And I was wondering to see if it's possible to come out, or would it be wanting to get release of Information that he was talking about.
	I didn't catch too much of the program.
	Oh, I see.
	You missed... It's not very interesting.
	I didn't know if I could... Well, it was very interesting.
	What I would suggest you do, sir, is watch Good Morning America this morning.
	Set your VCR, whatever.
	There will be a demonstration of a water heater that has been operating for some number of months now on cold, with a cold fusion process.
	In addition, there will be, it is my understanding, A demonstration of high-level nuclear materials eroding or decaying, if you will, at an accelerated rate in conjunction with a cold fusion process.
	We'll see.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
	Yeah, Art?
	Yes.
	Cherry Lake, California.
	How you doing?
	And up in near Calistoga.
	Yes, sir?
	There's been some wells, and I believe also near Lake Tahoe.
	Yes.
	Contaminated with MTB.
	Yes, we're aware of it.
	You are?
	Yes, indeed.
	This Lake Tahoe, you know, that's sort of a... Big lake?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, we've got a lot of problems down here, too, with Lake Mead.
	And fish that are deformed.
	Harp, to be specific.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Hey, Art.
	Jerry, up here in Como Country.
	Yes, sir.
	Turning my radio down.
	Looks like we're coming to the end.
	A couple of things.
	Close encounters of the third kind.
	Remember the hand motions they were making?
	I do.
	That had something to do, I'll bet you, with what Stan was talking about last night.
	Also, on the Oprah Show today, we will have... We will.
	Listen to me.
	There's going to be the guy who wrote the article that Stan was talking about.
	Ah, the Bible codes.
	Alright, listen, that's it.
	Tell everybody goodnight.
	Oh, from the high desert and from up here in the North Country, goodnight all.
	That's it.

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