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April 30, 1997 - Art Bell

02:18:31

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Kevin Randle & Renee Barnett - UFO Crashes

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45:25

sean david morton

01:03:33

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roger leir

01:03

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Buffalo crashes.
		And so I guess then it makes absolute sense that Renee Barnett from Strange Universe, seeking to do a program on the top 10 crashes, would go to Kevin Randall.
		Renee, welcome to the program.
		Thank you.
		Is that a pretty good assessment of why you went to Kevin?
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Kevin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you there?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I certainly am.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, excellent.
		Glad to have you both with us.
		Renee, you're not going to tell us what the top 10 crashes are, are you?
unidentified		Well, not tonight.
unidentified		I have to watch the show for that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Uh-huh.
		I could guess at a few.
		I could guess at Roswell.
		I could guess at Bentwaters in England.
		And after that, I'd start having a hard time.
		There was maybe one at Socorro.
		And all time, huh?
		That's about all I can think of offhand when you're talking about actual crashes.
		I mean, that is correct.
		Is it crashes or incidents?
unidentified		Incidents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Incidents.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, then I've got a question.
unidentified		Shoot.
unidentified		Phoenix.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The recent Phoenix sightings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are they in there?
unidentified		Oh, I knew you were going to do this to me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course I'm going to do it to you.
unidentified		I would say that's a very good possibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A very good possibility.
		All right.
		So then I know I probably have four.
		All right.
		Kevin, you've written the history of UFO crashes.
		How many crashes...
		That's not like lights.
		That's like crashes.
		How many have there been?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If you go back into the 19th century, and I think the first one chronicled in the book is actually 1886, we can document reports of about 125.
		Of those, I think maybe four are good, solid cases.
		The rest of them are hoaxes, misidentifications, wild guesses, single witness reports that have no additional corroborative information for them.
		So we take a look at all of that kind of information and try to put together a good, solid chronology of this from the 19th century up until, I think, 1989 as the last one figured in the book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Kevin, I think you ought to tell the audience a little bit about yourself.
		Why are you into the UFO subject material?
		How'd you get into it?
		That kind of thing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I always have blamed my mother.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your mother?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Who actually once got lost in Prump, Nevada?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Who was very interested in science fiction, and it's not a huge step from science fiction into the UFO phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, getting lost in Prump is like science fiction.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That's what she said.
		And so it wasn't a large leap into the UFO phenomena.
		Now, I've spent time as an Army helicopter pilot.
		I was an Air Force intelligence officer.
		I'm actually now what they call APD or ABD, all but dissertation for my Ph.D., and I'm currently working on my dissertation in psychology.
		So I'm just kind of all over the board with a very eclectic interest in the world around us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Usually when people are at that sensitive point that you just described, ABD, they are loath to talk about things like UFOs.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, interestingly enough, I've conferred with my advisor, and I'm probably going to end up doing a dissertation that relates to the abduction phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My, my, how the world changes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, that could be part of it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		What I think my point of view has been, and I think is what we need to do in the UFO phenomenon, is elevate us from the amateur, if you will, as science in other realms have done, move ourselves up to the next level where we're looking at it with a more logical mind, looking at it more seriously than we have in the past.
		It's great to have the people out there chasing the lights in the sky, but after you found 100,000 cases or 200,000 cases, there's not much more that we can add to our knowledge.
		And I think we need to attempt to move ufology from that realm to the next level where we're doing conscious research and performing experimentation, if you will, looking for the hard physical evidence that the phenomenon actually exists.
		I mean, you know it exists.
		I know it exists.
		We've got to convince the journalistic community and the scientific community that this is something that deserves a good scientific look.
		I don't think there's been a good scientific investigation of the UFO phenomenon since it began.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, later we will talk of Dr. Stephen Greer and his efforts and what you think of that and so forth.
		Let me turn for a second to Renee.
		Renee, you've got a segment coming up on the top 10 UFO incidents, I guess, of all time.
unidentified		Well, yes, in recent history, I guess, actually, the phenomenon kind of kicked off, and I'll give away another of our top 10 with the Kenneth Arnold sighting, which was in 1947, as well as the Roswell incident.
unidentified		So it's celebrating its 50th anniversary in the month of June.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remind me and the audience, Kenneth Arnold.
unidentified		Yes, and, you know, Kevin is actually the expert, but I can tell you that I believe it was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, June 24th, 1947, Kenneth Arnold was a pilot, and he saw a flying, or what he saw looked like a saucer.
unidentified		And that was actually when the term flying saucer was coined, which is another important thing about that event.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If I might.
unidentified		Sure.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		What Kenneth Arnold saw near Mount Rainier, Washington on June 24th, you were right, was nine objects moving with this motion that he described like saucers skipping across the pond.
		So he really wasn't describing the shape of the objects as saucer, but their motion like saucers.
		And he said they were crescent-shaped objects.
		And what is important about the Arnold sighting, of course, is it began the whole UFO phenomena, the modern phenomena, alerted the media to it.
		But as Arnold's sighting ended, there was a fellow named Fred Johnson who saw the same objects.
		But Johnson reported that his compass began to spin wildly as these objects neared him.
		So we have the first of the electromagnetic effects.
		And the Air Force, and you really can't blame them in 1947, the Air Force decided that the action of the compass was not related to the appearance of the UFOs.
		We now know about the electromagnetic effects.
		But at that point, there didn't seem to be any causal relationship between the appearance of the objects and the spinning of his compass.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I probably should know about the Arnold, more about the Arnold incident.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has it been, in effect, varied a little bit by Roswell occurring in the same year?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It has taken a back seat to the Roswell case because of the number of witnesses involved in the importance of the Roswell case.
		But Kenneth Arnold sighting, he's always blamed as the man who started the whole UFO phenomenon with his sighting near Mount Rainier.
		So he's given credit for that.
		But what has become important is that the Arnold sighting is not standalone.
		It's not a single witness sighting as we had thought when it was first reported, Arnold seeing the object from his airplane.
		We've now got a witness on the ground that corroborates what he says.
		So now it's become multiple witness.
		So it's a much more powerful sighting than it was when it was first reported.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a pilot sighting is interesting stuff anyway.
		I guess at that point, there would not have been a lot of fear on the part of a pilot to report something like this.
		That occurred after that time.
		Would that be correct, Kevin?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		I think what we look at, and again, we have to take a look at 1947.
		Nobody knows what's going on.
		And we read the newspaper clippings, and this is where it becomes very interesting.
		You read the newspaper clippings, you have governmental spokesmen saying, we don't know what it is.
		We think it might be this.
		We have the scientific community saying, we don't know what it is, and proposing a number of theories.
		There are military spokesmen saying, it's not secret projects that belong to us.
		We don't know what it is.
		Arnold sort of sparks all of that discussion in the press.
		On the July 4th weekend, the same weekend that the events in Roswell take place, a flight crew in Idaho reports an object.
		The United Airlines flight crew reports seeing objects pacing their aircraft.
		Nobody says anything about them.
		In fact, the military is extremely concerned by the number of pilots reporting these things, especially military pilots who they see as very credible.
		It's only after the Roswell case that takes place, and I even found the article in the Las Vegas Review Journal on July 9th, the Associated Press reports that the Army and Navy moved today to suppress the stories of flying saucers whizzing through the atmosphere.
		So what's interesting here is some event takes place on the July 4th weekend, the crash at Roswell.
		Suddenly the military and the government knows what's going on, and they move to suppress the sightings.
		And then people start making the comments like, well, flying saucers have been seen in 38 states except Kansas, which is a dry state.
		So suddenly the ridicule factor comes into play.
		You don't mean you see those flying saucers, do you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were they trying to suggest that the more humid a location, the more likely sightings, hence swamp gas, I think was the great thing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think what they attempted to do after the Roswell crash takes place, suddenly they know what the answer is.
		They're presented with a technology that's far superior to ours.
		If we can crack the codes, we leap ahead of our enemies.
		We have the technology then that could rule the world if we can figure it out.
		And if we can convince our enemies that nothing happened at Roswell, then we don't have to worry about espionage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, that makes sense.
unidentified		That's right.
unidentified		And then the stigma became that if you've seen a flying saucer, then you must be out of your mind or under the influence of alcohol.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Or are you one of those guys with three teeth and bib overalls that sucks down beer all the time?
		You can't be trusted.
		But what's interesting, if you take a look at the files, even the Air Force files show this.
		The higher the level of education, the more qualified the observer.
		The longer the object is in sight, the less likely they're going to find an explanation for it.
		So it's just the opposite of what they had suggested, that the lower the educational level, these are fleeting things that you only see for a moment, and it's people who haven't been highly educated or highly trained.
		And when you look at the Project Blue Book file, you find exactly the opposite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Renee, you've brought up a million things we could expand on, Kevin, but Renee's with us, I think, for an hour.
		You've got a big segment coming up, top 10.
		The top 10 things that have occurred.
		When is it going to air?
unidentified		That's tomorrow night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Tomorrow night?
unidentified		Monday.
unidentified		May 1st.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May 1st.
		That's right.
		And people ought to know, every time I have somebody on, as a matter of fact, you did a piece on Heaven's Gate Monday.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And people go absolutely nuts trying to find Strange Universe.
		I get a million factors saying, where is it?
		Where is it?
		Where is it?
		When, when, when, when?
		And you've got a website.
		That's probably their best bet.
		Otherwise, what, TV guides?
unidentified		Yes, check your local listing.
		So being syndicated, we're not on a certain network and different networks all over the place.
		In Los Angeles, we happen to be on the United Paramount network, but that doesn't hold true across the board.
		So the best bet is to check your local listing.
		Certainly, you know, check our website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is.
unidentified		Which is www.strangeuniverse.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		So many people don't have computers yet that I guess you're going to have to turn to your TV guides.
		But typically you'll find it, I find, between about 10 at night and 1 in the morning.
		I suppose it can vary from even that, but that's where I found it generally.
unidentified		A lot of times we're on late at night.
		However, in some cities, we're on even in the afternoon.
		I think in Tulsa, Oklahoma, we show, my hometown, we show at 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ooh, okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Renee, when you began to do this, you know, move toward this segment of the top 10, how did you select?
unidentified		How did I select the top 10?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, what was the criterion for selecting?
unidentified		Well, certainly, as you mentioned, there were certain ones that immediately came to mind.
unidentified		And then that's when I made the call to Kevin Randall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
unidentified		And we went over the remaining number, which was the majority of the cases, together.
		And I think that we tried to select cases where there were sufficient documentation and mainly something more than just a sighting, but something more like interaction with the environment,
		such as in the Kenneth Arnold sighting, the compass of Fred Johnson that went spinning, that was actually some effect on the environment that this had.
		You know, of course, the crash at Roswell, we had, you know, trace evidence.
		We had debris.
		And we had, of course, lots of documentation.
		And we had a press release by the Army Air Corps, I guess it was called at the time.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it was the Army Air Forces then.
unidentified		Army Air Force.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Air Forces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Air Forces, wasn't it, brilliant?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, as a bit of trivia, which probably no one cares about but me, the Army Air Corps became the Army Air Force in 1941, and by the end of the war, it was the Army Air Forces.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		So in 1947, before it broke off to become its own branch of the service, it was the Army Air Forces.
unidentified		That's right.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Now, why did they do that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any idea, Kevin?
unidentified		What happened?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		What happened is in the history, of course, at first the Air Force was part of the Army, part of the Army Air Corps, but it grew into such a powerful and important organization that at the end of the war, you had the Army broken into two separate units, the ground forces and the air forces.
		And so you had, for example, in 1947, you had Dwight Eisenhower as the chief of staff of the Army, but under him were two high-ranking officers, one commanding the Army ground forces, one commanding Carl Spatz, I believe it was, commanding the Army Air Forces.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Both of you, hold on a moment.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		Kevin Randall, who wrote The History of UFO Crashes, and Renee Barnett from Strange Universe are my guests.
unidentified		The History of UFO Crashes
		Call Art Bell, toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, it is.
		There's nothing like a rogue.
		Barnett from Strange Universe and Kevin Randall.
		And Renee, how tough was it to put all this together, to make decisions?
unidentified		Actually, I think it took us a conversation of maybe just an hour or so to really come up with the top 10.
		And then later on, we set out at Strange Universe to put them in order of importance.
		And then getting what was kind of difficult, but made much easier with the help of Kevin, was to get together some visuals for each of the events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I was about to say, you are a visual medium.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you've got to find visual ways to tell your story.
		And that's particularly difficult in the UFO field.
		So how'd you do it?
unidentified		That's right.
		Well, as I said, with Kevin's help, Kevin had a lot of videotape.
		He had some great pictures.
		He had some documents.
		And so we traveled to Kevin's place to pick some of that up and to get that on tape and also to get Kevin to narrate our sightings for us, or our events, I should say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
unidentified		Sightings.
unidentified		Oh, so we'll see Kevin on the piece.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll get to see Kevin, all right.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How did you feel about television, Kevin?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think it's a wonderful medium, and it's probably here to stay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got an interesting list before me, and this question will go to both of you.
		This is a list compiled by MUFON down in Texas and Walt Andres, I believe.
		And it is a list of UFO bodies or ET bodies allegedly in the possession of the U.S. government.
		And let me tell you, it's one long list.
		Four at Roswell, 12 at Aztec, New Mexico, 16 at Ely, Nevada, three at Albuquerque.
		I could go on and on and on.
		There's probably about 20 more listings here, totaling God knows how many bodies.
		I would say probably 50 or 60 bodies in totality.
		Do either one of you or both of you believe that there are bodies and that we are in possession of them?
unidentified		I believe that there were some bodies.
unidentified		However, if it's that large number, I think I'm going to defer to the expert, Kevin, on that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think all we really need is one to prove the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There is no doubt in my mind that bodies were recovered at Roswell.
		Once we have that in our possession, once we know what's going on based on that, then subsequent cases Are not nearly as important other than their corroborative value.
		I think this list is put together much in the same way I put together the chronology for a history of UFO crashes in that I accepted all the information, looked at all the information, and put it in the book whether I believed it to be accurate or not, because I felt we ought to put that much information out.
		There's always a possibility I had made a mistake.
		I might think that a case is a hoax or a misidentification and, in fact, be wrong about that.
		So I thought it was sort of using the Lennon Stringfield idea that let's put as much information out there as we can, and maybe it'll key a memory or it'll key something from someone else, and it'll put the whole thing together for us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, there are two famous now pieces of video.
		One, the Roswell autopsy, supposed, and the latest being the supposed interrogation of an alien at Area 51, which, by the way, ran on Strange Universe as well.
		I'm not going to ask you, Renee, because it's just too tempting to try to get to the top 10, and I know you don't want to give them all away because you've got a show to do tomorrow night.
		But, Kevin, is there any, in your opinion, legitimate footage of aliens?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think the alien autopsy film that Ray Santilli and the boys has is probably a fake.
		They're operating as if they know something about the film and they don't want us to know and have done everything in their power to make sure that we don't get sufficient information about it to make any kind of a pronouncement.
		We also have to take a look at it from the point of view as it's not incumbent upon us to prove that film a fake, but Ray Santelli should provide us with the information so that it can be authenticated.
		He's failed to do so.
		But there are some interesting things out there, some interesting photographs, some interesting things out there for us to take a look at.
		That's a non-committal answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's fine.
		What about this latest footage of an ET supposedly being interviewed at Area 51?
		I'm sure you've seen that, or seconds of it, or portions of a second.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That aired on Strange Universe.
unidentified		Correct.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And I think, again, I'm dubious of that sort of thing because, once again, the provenance of it hasn't been effectively established.
		I think we need to take a look at all aspects of the UFO phenomena, I think, with a very skeptical eye, that we're not going to allow our personal beliefs infect how we view these cases and let the evidence carry us to where it goes.
		And I don't think on the interrogation of the alien, all the evidence is in yet.
		We have to wait until we can get some more information and some more evidence before we can make a positive call on that.
unidentified		All right.
		Speaking of that alien interview, as it's called, by Rocket Pictures, who owns the full two minutes and 55 seconds of available footage on that, we're doing a follow-up on that next Tuesday on the Strange Universe.
		Right.
		And we're still continuing our investigation into that and seeking out any evidence that anyone might have to corroborate this or to disprove it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Another category then, and this is probably the most important to me of them all, and it is hard physical evidence.
		Evidence that can be examined, analyzed, and all the rest of it.
		Now, I happen to be in possession of something affectionately called Art's Parts, made up of two shipments we got.
		One of aluminum pieces, which are extremely pure, but not very interesting beyond the fact of their purity.
		The second shipment, though, was of material made up of bismuth and magnesium.
		Now, Linda Molten Howe, exhaustively, for about a year now, we went to Carnegie Institute.
		We went to every rare metals manufacturer we could find, researchers in the field.
		They didn't know what it was.
		They have yet to be able to duplicate it, and they've been trying.
		It appears to have diamagnetic property to it.
		I don't know how many other things like this exist.
		I'll tell you a little secret.
		I gave a little piece of it to my friend Whitley Streeber.
		And I said, just a souvenir for you, Whitley.
		And I gave him a little piece of the Biz Mag stuff, 16 layers, something like that.
		We've got photographs up on the website.
		And he took it away, and I just really intended to give it to him as a souvenir.
		Nobody knows this.
		And he took it to a scientist and had it analyzed.
		And the scientist said, oh, my God, what's this?
		I have never seen anything like this.
		So there's one piece of at least hard physical evidence that has not properly been explained.
		It's an important avenue of research.
		Kevin, is there much more of it out there?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd like to retreat to your aluminum for a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The one horrifying thing that is in my mind is that we finally get a piece of the Roswell wreckage, I mean a real, honest-to-God piece of the flying saucer, and we take it to the proper authorities to have it analyzed, and they say, hey, it's aluminum.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Doesn't mean it's not extraterrestrial in origin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, and let me tell you something else, Kevin.
		One other aspect of the aluminum that was very important was that when you looked at it under an electron microscope, there were thousands of little pieces of embedded sand.
		And the report that came back said, whatever this aluminum material is, it was involved in a very hard impact with the ground.
		So we know that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There's the Yubatuba sample, object seen to explode near Yubatuba, Brazil in 1957.
		Material picked up on the beach, taken to first a columnist in Brazil, and later it arrived at the headquarters of the Aerophenomena Research Organization in Tucson.
		According to the original analysis done by the Brazilian Army or the Brazilian government, it was magnesium that was 100% pure, did not exist in that form in 1957, and that sample was destroyed in the analysis of it.
		Two other pieces made it into the United States.
		One of them was allowed, or maybe both of them were allowed, were given to the Condon Committee, the University of Colorado study in the late 1960s for non-destructive analysis.
		And the Condon report made a very unscientific conclusion, I thought.
		They said, well, we looked at this metal.
		It's very pure magnesium, but it's not 100% pure.
		Therefore, the story of it being 100% pure is disproven.
		No, that's not what it proved, because if I blow up your car, I can find all kinds of different materials.
		I can find cloth and rubber and glass and metal.
		So if I analyze a piece of glass, I cannot say that your car was made of glass.
		And so the counting committee drawing the conclusion that the piece that was destroyed in the analysis in Brazil was not 100% pure, even though the Brazilian laboratories said it was.
		The counting committee can't say, well, that's been disproved.
		All they can say is the samples that they examined were not 100% pure.
		But there's another example of hard physical evidence from a flying saucer, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Renee, in this piece coming up, do you deal at all with the hard physical evidence aspect of it, or are you more into the sightings aspect?
unidentified		I think we're into a little bit of both.
		And basically, what it is, is it's just what we're calling it.
		It's the strange universe top 10 UFOs, top 10 greatest UFOs.
		So what it is, is that we're just listing it, giving a little bit of background and a little bit of evidence from each case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Including a little bit of hard physical evidence.
unidentified		Yes, we're speaking about that.
unidentified		I don't know that we had any evidence in our possession to show, but we did speak about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		When is the piece going to be, Renee?
		Is it the entire show?
		Is it the first piece, or where is it going to be in the show?
unidentified		I think it's in the second or third act of the show, more toward the end of the show.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Both of you, the anniversary of Roswell is coming up.
		What do you expect from that?
		Will there be anything new, anybody else coming forward, any amazing new information about Roswell on the anniversary?
unidentified		Gee, it would be hard for me to say if anyone's holding back information that they're going to reveal on the anniversary, but that would certainly be an exciting premise to go on.
unidentified		I would think that that would be a great time to reveal it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be, yes.
unidentified		Kevin, do you have any inside info?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There have been a number of different people who have told stories about their involvement in the Roswell case in the last year or so.
		Again, Strange Universe did the financial officer from the base coming forward and talking a little bit about what his involvement was.
		But that was something new.
		There is other people who have been a little bit freer with what they know, but I don't see any major revelation coming about just because of the 50th anniversary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Problem is, people are beginning to die.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Problem is, people have been dying for a long time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But particularly from the Roswell incident.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		But what I'm saying is that's been a problem we've been having for quite a long time.
		Jesse Marcel Sr. died in 1986, for example.
		And I'm appalled by going back through my address book and the numbers of witnesses that we've gotten on either audio or videotape and discovering these people have since died.
		Edwin Easley was a major loss.
		I think we did not properly investigate what he knew.
		He was somewhat reticent to talk.
		And had we realized that he was as ill as he was, I think I spoke to him about six months before he was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
		And had we known in that six months, we could have gone out of our way to get more information from him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who was he?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
		I assume that everybody knows everything about this case, and I shouldn't do that.
		Edwin Easley was the Provost Marshal of the 509th Bomb Group in Roswell in 1947.
		He was responsible for coordinating both the impact site where the craft and bodies were located and the debris field up on the Brazil Ranch.
		That was his responsibility.
		When I first spoke to him, he told me repeatedly that I can't talk about it.
		I was sworn to secrecy, which, of course, gives lie to Sheridan Cavett's comment about, well, I wasn't sworn to secrecy.
		Well, there were people who were sworn to secrecy.
		We have that information on tape.
		He also told family members about seeing the creatures, talking about the creatures, and he let other little things drop.
		He told me flat out that the craft was extraterrestrial.
		So Edwin Easley was an important witness.
		And we found him in 1990 and interviewed him a couple of times.
		And then, I think it was in November of that year, I called down to speak to him.
		And his wife said, well, he's not available right now.
		I said, well, it wouldn't be a good time to call back.
		And she kind of hesitated.
		And I found out later that he was very ill.
		And unfortunately, we did not have an opportunity to gather as much information from him as we might have been able to had his health been better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, deathbed testimony is important testimony in my eyes and the eyes of many, many people.
		If you're dying and you want to get something off your chest, it carries more weight.
		There's no question about it.
		It carries more weight in the eyes of just about everybody.
		So it is a shame that you were not able to get there.
		But he told you unambiguously that it was an E.T. Kraft.
		Do you have that on tape?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Unfortunately, no.
		And what happened there was I had made the call to him when we were having that Discussion from the Center for UFO Studies office, and I didn't have a tape recorder.
		Since then, people have said, Well, you should have gone out and bought one right away and called him back and gotten the information from him again.
		And they're absolutely right, I should have done that.
		I didn't think about that.
		I thought we were going to have an opportunity to interview him on videotape because we were making plans to go to visit him at his home in Fort Worth and videotape him before he got sick.
		And the circumstances crowded us out on that.
		We do have some of his statements on tape, for example, being sworn to secrecy.
		And it's kind of funny in the first conversation as I talk to him and I ask him questions about this, and he keeps saying, I can't tell you that.
		I was sworn to secrecy.
		I can't tell you that.
		I was sworn to secrecy.
		So we have a man who is very credible, who retired as a full colonel from the Air Force, who clearly was the Provost Marshal of the 509th Bomb Group at the time this took place, telling me that he can't talk about this incident because he was sworn to secrecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a lot of people then took all this very seriously.
		Renee, I have a question for you.
		I have an opportunity to interview the famous, infamous, mysterious Victor.
		Victor is willing to come on my program for apparently about an hour with a voice changing apparatus and be interviewed with regard to the tape that you ran and the follow-up that you're about to do on Strange Universe.
		Now, that probably is going to occur in the next few days, Renee.
		If you would be interested in getting a list of questions to me that you think would be appropriate to follow with Victor, it would be very helpful.
unidentified		I would love that, and I appreciate the opportunity.
		I would certainly love to have the opportunity to interview Victor myself, and I envy you for being able to, this is a real coup, I think, that you're getting him.
		We were certainly not afforded that opportunity at Strange Universe, and the fact that he's going to be on for a full hour is really great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a lot of time.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if I were to say, well, I'd like to bring Renee Barnett from Strange Universe on and let her also ask some questions, whether Victor would then sprint away.
unidentified		You can give it a try.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I will.
		All right.
		I'm willing to do that.
		I'll give it a try because I know you had many questions.
		In the meantime, the big one coming up tomorrow night, the top 10, would you say of contemporary UFO incidents or all time?
unidentified		I would say, well, contemporary UFO incidents, but I guess in some ways that is for all time because the real evidence and documentation that we have on UFOs has really been only in contemporary times, starting back 50 years ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a shame.
		Kevin, I know that you know what they are, and you won't say either, and I don't blame you.
		You're not supposed to.
		But do you think that Strange Universe has it pretty well covered with respect to the top 10 being what you would agree the top 10 probably are?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		We have to take a look at it.
		I mean, we're limited to 10 different events, and I'm sure that if you sat down to think about what you would think of the top 10 UFO events, you might come up with a slightly different list.
		But I know in the construction of the list, what was a primary consideration was the evidence available.
		Did the UFOs interact with the environment?
		If we went, from a scientific point of view, the scientific community, the skeptics are always saying, where's the physical evidence?
		And I think that was kind of in the backs of everybody's mind as the list was put together is those that were more than just a sighting, but had some additional element to it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Renee, we're about to break off with you.
		So remind everybody, tomorrow night, the top 10 UFO incidents.
		It'll be in Strange Universe.
		Everybody's got to go out there and check their TV guides and find out when it's on, right?
unidentified		That's right.
		That's right.
		And next Tuesday, the alien interview follow-up.
		Also on that same show on the UFO subject, we're going to be running a feature on the elusive Mr. Robert Bigelow, the Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know Bob Bigelow.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, he's somebody I had a lot of dealings with.
		All right, Renee Barnett, thank you.
		Everybody should be watching the top 10 tomorrow night.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Renee, thanks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin, stick around.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'll stick around.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		This is where we break at the top of the hour, everybody.
		You're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		The amazing way I can't survive Can't save a life Without your love More than one time Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard lines at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, top of the morning, everybody.
		Great to be here, actually.
		Kevin Randall is my guest, and we'll get back to him in a moment.
		This just came in, and I thought it deserved your attention, dear Art.
		Strange things are going on in Grants Pass, Oregon.
		There appears to be a man, a notch, well, who knows, going around grabbing women and trying to kiss their ankles.
		He is described as being a good-looking man in his 20s who approaches the women, asks to kiss their ankles, tries to fondle and kiss the aforementioned ankles.
		Two times now, in two weeks, this has happened.
		Each time, he's managed to escape.
		Attempting to kiss ankles is apparently not a crime, at least at this time, and this fellow has broken no real laws.
		However, police have officially advised the women of Grandspass to quote keep on their toes.
		The case remains under investigation.
		Yeah, Strange Universe indeed.
		Last hour we had Renee Barnett here.
		Tomorrow night on Strange Universe, there is going to be a segment on the top 10 UFO incidents in, I guess, all of history, really.
		And they consulted Kevin Randall to find out what those were.
		And so Kevin Randall continues to be our guest at this hour, and he'll be back in a minute.
		The Beijing Free Player.
		1050.
		All right, back now to Kevin Randall.
		And Kevin, you wrote first The History of UFO Crashes, and then, most recently, your current book, The Randall Report.
		Is that correct?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I had a couple of UFO books that preceded History of UFO Crashes, but.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were those?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It started off with the UFO case book in 1989, and then UFO Crash at Roswell, which was made into the Showtime original film, cleverly called Roswell, and the truth about the UFO Crash at Roswell, and then History of UFO Crashes, and then we get into the Randall Report, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I've got a copy of Roswell, the movie.
		How accurate was it?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		What the director said to me was, hey, it's a movie.
		They weren't making a documentary.
		They were making a film.
		If they could remain faithful to the truth, they did so.
		But they invented an interesting framework for the film, Jesse Marcel, the Air Intelligence Officer, trying to piece together this story, which, of course, didn't happen in real life, but it was a way of bringing that information to the forefront.
		So they attempted to remain faithful to the film.
		And if you look quickly, you can actually see me in that film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're in there?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		Where?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What did you do?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the beginning, there's a scene where the sheriff's office, and the sheriff has got a call from London, and the deputy says, sheriff's not here, Cheerio, and there's a reporter in the background arguing with another deputy.
		Well, I'm the reporter arguing with the deputy.
		You have to look through a door, and you see me back there arguing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to go back and take a look.
		All right.
		I'm with you.
		You know, sometimes it frustrates my audience, but in covering this kind of material, Kevin, all the time people will call up and they will want to tell you a story.
		And I understand why they want to do that.
		You know, back when I was six years old, I saw these lights and they did the following and they zoomed and zoomed and then they were out of there.
		And I've sort of stopped or tried to discourage people from telling these stories because there are now so many millions of Americans that to me, it's fait to compli.
		In other words, UFO sightings are real.
		Millions and millions of Americans have seen them.
		But we need to go beyond that.
		We really, really need to go beyond that.
		Either with a body or physical evidence or indisputable photographic evidence, that one's hard too.
		I've got on my website, gosh, I've got so many photographs up there.
		I've even got one with a helicopter and a saucer.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The problem you run into in today's environment with photographs, frankly, is anybody with a computer and a good graphics program, a graphics creation program, Photoshop or Adobe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		While that's true, you might take a look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have access to the web?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I looked at your website this evening when I was waiting to come on the show.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good, good, good.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Did you see the picture with the helicopter and the science?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I didn't go that deep into it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'll go take another look tomorrow.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The reason I say this is because I was sent the original 35-millimeter photograph.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I scanned that in myself.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, but what I'm saying is it's so easy to even create a negative in today's environment that it's almost impossible for even the experts to tell whether or not that's been manipulated with some kind of a computer program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then photographic evidence, whether it's a still photograph or even video.
unidentified		Video.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No matter how good it is, it's not going to be accepted.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		In today's environment, we've got a real problem with that.
		And in fact, I just saw something somewhere on the web today talking about a video toaster for under $10,000.
		Now, I know when they originally came out, they were half a million dollars or more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A video toaster?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It's a piece of equipment that allows you to manipulate videotapes.
		And I have a friend, Russ Estes, who showed me how easy it was for him to create a very good-looking videotape of a flying saucer with the equipment that he has at his studio.
		And so we've got a real problem with looking at that sort of thing today.
		So we need, if you've got videotape of a flying saucer or an object, you've got to have a photographer who has impeccable credentials or multiple witnesses.
		Now, if you get videotape of the same object from two or three locations, it's going to be very hard for someone to have fake that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what about Phoenix?
		Phoenix is a good example of that.
		Sightings over Phoenix were seen by thousands, and they've got videotape as well.
		Where does that investigation stand?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		My understanding is they're still in the process of investigating it, because it's a fairly recent activity.
		And you have to take a look at the whole body of evidence that is available from that.
		And if you've got, as I say, videotapes from two or three cameras from two or three sources, and you have people who are credible people, such as you and I, I mean, you wouldn't be out there faking a video of a flying saucer near the sky.
		We don't have a history of creating those sorts of hoaxes, if you will.
		Then you begin to assemble some very credible evidence.
		But I think the point that we need to take a look at, and you allude to it, another sighting of lights in the sky or even a daylight disk isn't going to help us If we start building the cases from a scientific standpoint and looking at the evidence very,
		very carefully and taking the witness testimony and asking all the questions that should be asked, not just the ones we want to hear the answers for, and put together a solid body of evidence, even if we do not have a bit of metal, we're still going to be able to put together some very credible cases.
		And when those opportunities to collect the bits of metal have come about, the scientific community have ignored them.
		Chris Stiles and Don Ledger in Nova Scotia have just spent the last couple of years investigating the Shag Harbor case from October of 1967.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know about that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I was going to explain.
		An object apparently either fell into Shag Harbor or dove into Shag Harbor to avoid something.
		The Canadian government attempted to find out what fell into it.
		They fell into Shag Harbor.
		They were accompanied by Americans.
		And there's even an indication that the Soviets were involved in some fashion trying to get in there to look what was going on.
		What's so important about this case is it happened in October of 1967.
		This is when the Condon Committee was out investigating UFOs for the United States Air Force.
		$550,000 of our tax money they're spending to investigate UFOs.
		Here is the perfect example of a case that could produce very good physical evidence.
		The Condent Committee called up into Canada, made a couple of phone calls, thought that just some teenagers saw some lights in the sky, and didn't follow up on it at all.
		And Chris Stiles and Don Ledger have spent a great deal of time following up and gathering documentation, realizing here was an opportunity for Condon Committee to do exactly what they were supposed to be doing, a scientific analysis of a UFO sighting, and they just blew it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, whether it's the Condon Committee or Blue Book or any of the other investigations that have occurred, have there been, in your opinion, any really legitimate investigations conducted?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And by that I mean by some official source, government or otherwise, whatever?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It's my opinion that there has been no good scientific investigation of the UFO phenomenon.
		There have been things such as the Condent Committee or Project Blue Book that you mentioned that were supposed to be doing that sort of thing.
		And everybody sits around and says, well, Project Blue Book, the Air Force looked at 12,000 UFO sightings.
		They were able to explain all but 701.
		And is that 701 in a significant number?
		And if you take a look at it from a statistical point of view, it really isn't 701 unexplained sightings out of 12,000.
		But what you have to take a look at is what the Air Force said.
		They said, well, the rest of them were astronomical phenomenon, weather phenomenon, weather balloons, aircraft misidentifications, and hoaxes.
		What they don't tell you is about 4,000 of the cases in the Project Blue Book files are stamped insufficient data for a scientific analysis, which means there's no explanation for them, but they are labeled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And Blue Book concluded, didn't it, at the very end, that whatever it is, it's not a threat to national security.
		Wasn't that in their final statement?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That was what they always played off.
		Well, it's no threat to national security.
		We have done our job because it doesn't threaten the national security.
		We don't have to look at this anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I have interviewed officers who were in missile silos in this country who said that UFOs hovered over their installations, that UFOs, in fact, deactivated some intercontinental ballistic missiles.
		I've had other people tell me that story is absolutely accurate, but I actually talked to one of the officers 2020, long time ago, I think it was, did a story on a UFO that hovered over a Russian similar installation and began activating an ICBM.
		Now, whatever UFOs are, it seems to me that if they're doing that kind of thing, if they're not a threat to national security, then the people in Washington have their heads in a very dark place indeed.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, the other side of that coin, the Air Force says we don't investigate UFOs anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If you've got some anomalous object over the continental United States, it's the Air Force mission to investigate it.
		No matter what they say, so we don't pay attention to UFOs anymore.
		Well, we've got an invader over our airspace.
		The Air Defense Command is supposed to look at these things and intercept them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, so that is a dumb statement on its face.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, if something's doing Mach 405 crossing the country at high altitude and they don't go up and see what it is, what the hell's wrong with our defense system?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And isn't that their job?
		And if they're not going up to look at it, then we better stop funding them.
		And so when they say we stopped investigating UFOs in 1969, that's a crock.
		They still investigate UFOs.
		They have to investigate UFOs by regulation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You wrote the history of UFO crashes.
		What did you do in the Randall report, the new book, that went beyond that or that differed from that?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The Randall Report is looking at UFO investigations in the 1990s and how UFO investigations operate in the 1990s.
		And that is how we bring in the Shag Harbor crash for 1967, for example.
		The investigation by ufologists began in the 1990s.
		And I think Chris Diles says that he was inspired by the Unsolved Mysteries segment on the Roswell case and realized that there was a similar event that took place in Nova Scotia and that maybe he could look into that and discover some documentation or talk to some of the witnesses and maybe uncover some evidence about it.
		So we take a look at what has happened in the 1990s in the way of investigation and how the investigative technique of the ufologists have improved.
		We used to be a bunch of amateurs out there kind of bumbling in the dark, just wanting to believe in UFOs and not taking a good solid look at the evidence, going where the evidence took us.
		And if you take a look at the investigations done today, those same so-called amateurs are doing extremely incredible investigations.
		We've learned, and you alluded to it earlier with Linda Howe, she may not be competent to analyze the metal, the arched parts, but she's certainly competent to find the proper authorities to analyze that metal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, sure.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And that's one of the things that we've learned in the last few years is that we're not required to have all the answers.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There are experts out there, disinterested experts, who can provide us with some of the answers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but what's driving me nuts is they've done the analysis of arts parts, and we know enough.
		I mean, we've been underway with this for over a year now.
		It went to Carnegie.
		It re-radiated, and I forget, I'd have to get the report, 60 times the amount of radiation that should have been coming from it.
		At Carnegie in Washington, they documented that for us.
		We paid for it.
		And nobody has been able to duplicate it.
		Nobody understands it.
		It's absolutely anomalous.
		But where have we gone with it?
		I mean, why hasn't somebody come and said, my God, you've got something here, some hard physical evidence.
		It really is something.
		But they haven't.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think we take a look at the news media as a responsible entity or the scientific community.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		We have an awful lot of people out there who have spent their careers building their credibility, and they don't want to lose their credibility by investigating flying saucers for crying out loud.
unidentified		You're not telling me you believe in those little green men, are you?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And what we see is when a story is assigned to a reporter about UFOs, we always find the reporter finding the most uncredible person to talk to.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The Operation Right to Know did their march in Washington, and the reporters interviewed the lady who had manifested herself on 16 alien spacecraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They're going to go for somebody with a metal hat and a little twirly thing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And so they can go back and say, well, I don't believe in this stuff.
		Look what I found.
		Instead of investing the time and the effort in learning exactly what goes on in the UFO phenomena.
		You mentioned yourself, the Heaven's Gate event is linked directly to the UFO phenomenon as if we're somehow responsible.
		In fact, I saw Harlan Ellison on the sci-fi channel this Sunday lamenting the fact that all these crazy people believe in flying saucers, and look what it got them.
		39 people are dead in Southern California.
		And that's no more fair than to blame the Catholic Church for the Guyana tragedy in Jim Jones.
		He was no more a Catholic or a Christian in the sense that the people at Heaven's Gate are ufologists.
		And so we get tarred with that brush, and nobody bothers in the journalistic community to understand that we're not responsible for that craziness.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I want to talk to you about Heaven's Gate, and I want to talk to you about Dr. Stephen Greer, who just recently made a very serious attempt, a valiant attempt, that really went nowhere in the press, and it should have.
		So stay right there, Kevin.
		We'll be back to you.
		It's the bottom of the hour.
		Once again, I'm Art Bell.
		We are talking ufology, the general state, I guess, of ufology in a way, with a man who should know about it, Kevin Randall.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is the American CBC Radio Network.
		Don't touch that dial.
unidentified		8255, East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and we're about to open the lines and let you ask questions of Kevin Randall, if you would like.
		He's been investigating UFOs a long time.
		So if you have a question, come now.
		Do you drink bottled water?
		Do you still, from Alaska or Hawaii, call 918-687-0404?
		All right.
		Back now to Kevin Randall.
		Let us talk for a second about Heaven's Gate and the 39 suicides in Rancho, Santa Fe.
		When that story broke, Kevin, most folks decided they were going to blame me because we had had Courtney Brown on and a series of photographs showing an apparent anomaly behind Hailbop, which we, of course, proved to be a hoax long before the suicides.
		But never mind that.
		The press decided several things.
		They decided that they were going to make this story about UFOs no matter what, despite the suicide note saying that whether or not there's a companion is irrelevant, despite the fact that they'd been going after it 22 years, despite all kinds of facts, like they said that the marker was the comet and all the rest of it.
		If you do just a little bit of due diligence and research into what was going on with that cult, you would have come up with a very different story.
		But that is not what the American press wanted.
		By God, they were going to have their UFO equals suicide story no matter what.
		And I wonder if you kind of had the same take on it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		You know, 20 years ago, Apple White and the cult came by my house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		When they were bow and peep, just starting out as the two.
		And I was teaching a class on the UFO phenomenon at a local community college, and they wanted my help in sponsoring a lecture there.
		And I saw them as a contactee group and really didn't want anything to do with them, which is one of the reasons I have an unlisted phone number.
		I don't want these people standing on my front step when I come home from the room or whatever.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I understand, yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		But that's it.
		The news media, unfortunately, has got to get their story right now, this minute, and tomorrow we'll have another one.
		And we have To get it right now, this minute, and they're not interested in what the truth is.
		I was at the offices of the Chicago Tribune, and the reporter told me, never tell this story.
		We were talking about, again, the case at Roswell, and one of the editors says, Well, I don't believe in that stuff.
		And I said, Well, there's been a government cover-up, and I can prove it.
		I have the documentation.
		I mean, the documentation is there.
		I have a book coming out called Conspiracy of Silence, and the documentation is presented in there showing that there was an attempt to suppress UFO information.
		And the attitude of the editors, senior editors, the Chicago Tribune, is, we don't care what the documentation says.
unidentified		We don't believe this stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's right.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And that's it.
		We take a look at the Heaven's Gate cult, and it has nothing to do with UFOs in reality.
		And I don't know why the comment that we had the year before wasn't the marker for them.
		I don't either.
		It's a much better comment, actually.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We can only go by what they said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the press roundly ignored that and told the story the way they wanted to tell it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		But the press always tell the story the way they want to tell it, regardless of what the facts are.
		They get it in their mind that this is the way the story is, and then you have a very hard time of convincing them that it's not that way.
		They have their own agenda.
		The New York Times is the best example of that when the Air Force came out with a report in 1995 that said, well, we can explain Roswell's a weather balloon.
		Didn't look at the story where the Air Force says, you know, back in 1947, we said it was a weather balloon.
		We've checked our weather records.
		We lied back in 1947, and what we've discovered is it was a weather balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right, crazy.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Same answer, just gave it a new name, but it's the same answer.
		And the New York Times said, oh, yeah, of course, it's a weather balloon.
		Didn't say to the people, well, gee, why couldn't Marcel and the boys at Roswell recognize a weather balloon when they saw it?
		And if they couldn't recognize it, did you really want these guys with their fingers on the buttons?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that's a good point.
		Dr. Stephen Greer, I want to cover that subject.
		He recently went back to Washington and took some incredibly credible folks and provided testimony in an attempt to do exactly what we've been trying to do, legitimize the investigation.
		And I expected to see some pretty big headlines as a result of the Greer business.
		And there's been literally, unless you count the internet, nothing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And the internet, unfortunately, there's so many people on the internet that are not qualified to make any kind of pronouncement.
		You read some of those messages and you wonder how they can actually type in English.
		But I think Dr. Greer's attempt may have been a tad bit premature, that the news media wasn't ready for that sort of thing, regardless of the list of witnesses that he brought forward.
		I mean, when you have Jesse Marcel being attacked because his military record does not reflect what he told Bob Pratt some 30 years later, where we're still having to fight those sorts of battles.
		And I know of all the people in the debate about Jesse Marcel's record, I'm probably the only one that ever served in Army aviation.
		And I know for a fact my record is wrong.
		I tell you I have 41 air medals.
		I mean, Marcel had five and claimed he had five and the record showed two.
		My record shows two, but I can prove the other air medals that just was never an important enough discrepancy for me to bother to correct, that sort of thing.
		And what we're saying is this record that is kept by or created by draftees is somehow a document cast in stone.
		And what Jess Marcel said some 38 years later to a reporter who may have misunderstood what he said, we don't have the tapes anymore to compare it.
		Somehow this proves that Jess Marcel is a liar.
		I mean, here's a man who is exactly who he said he was in 1947, and we're now arguing over trivia from his record.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's like settled law, Kevin.
		In other words, good law, bad law, as long as it's been law long enough, even the U.S. Supreme Court is willing to say it is settled law.
		It's a concept I've always had a very difficult time with.
		So a record, you know, going back that many years, God, it's got to be true.
		Look at this.
		It was back in 40 so-and-so.
		It's got to be true.
		Let's try the phones here for a second.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm in California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		California?
unidentified		Okay.
		And my name's Gene.
		Kevin?
		Yes.
		I read at least one of your books.
		Pardon?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate that.
unidentified		Okay.
		And I've read several other books more recently.
		And I have a sense with all the various books that I've read that obviously our government has known about, we'll call, something flying around our planet, which they probably felt for perhaps their own reasons that us people on the planet didn't need to know about it.
		But in the various cases where people have actually had contact, they almost all allude to some type of human experimentation of which we are being used.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And the type of experimentation almost always implies that, the stories imply that they are using human embryo for,
		their own benefit it appears to be genetically related in other states right now one of the statements i read was that someone was told uh mankind's going to become sterile so this is why we're doing this but there always seems to be sometimes two varieties perhaps seen together one taller than the other and yet different as though one is a type of clone Maybe off of the human,
		and the other one is the actual, we'll call extraterrestrial entity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, ma'am, let me form that into a question for you.
		Kevin, she's right.
		When you look at contact reports, the vast majority of them appear to include experimentation that has to do with reproduction or genetics.
		Is that a fair conclusion?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure that's fair to say the vast majority of them.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There is a majority of them that when you collect the data from people who claim to have been abducted is suggestive of some kind of genetic manipulation and experimentation, yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then let's talk about the first little bit of what she said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In your opinion, you know what the Brookings report is.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are we still operating on the basis of that report?
		The Brookings report, for those who don't know, suggested that there would be a severe social disruption if we became aware that there were others.
		That boils it down too simply, of course, but that's the basic.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think they also suggested that when a technologically inferior civilization comes in contact with a technologically superior civilization, the technologically inferior civilization ceases to exist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Meaning the mere introduction of that technology radically alters the society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We didn't need ETs to prove that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We proved that again and again here on Earth.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I was going to suggest that the mere introduction of the horse to the Plains Indians after the Spanish arrived in the New World certainly altered their lifestyle.
		And of course, now we, where are the Indians today?
		Their civilizations were destroyed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So my question is, are we still operating under the premise presented in the Brookings report?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think we're operating under that premise.
		We're operating under a lot of different premises.
		It strikes me that we're operating under big brotherism.
		We are so childlike, I guess, that if the government were to come out and tell us that there were extraterrestrial entities flying through our atmosphere, that it would be disastrous.
		We just couldn't handle this sudden knowledge that we are not alone in the universe.
		And we can see that kind of attitude by the U.S. government all the time in a lot of the laws they pass and the things they do.
		So, yeah, I think we're still operating under that sort of a auspices, if you will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Let me change course here just for a second with you, Kevin.
		I've got an important question.
		I've had, as you know, Richard Hoagland on the program many times.
		Richard has concentrated on things like the face on Mars, artifacts on the moon, and 17 years ago, life on Europa, and those sorts of things.
		He has been pressuring a long time now, NASA.
		Two days ago, I got a letter from NASA directly from NASA to me.
		And they finally have begun to react to this, particularly with respect to the announcement that there will not be, amazingly will not be, a mission to Europa.
		Very suspicious.
		And so tomorrow night, I'm going to have Don Savage, who is the Public Affairs Officer, Office of Space Science from NASA, and Ray Villard, who is the Public Affairs Officer for the Hubble Space Sciences Institute.
		They're both going to be on the show.
		And NASA has finally decided to publicly respond.
		Now, this goes to an argument made by Tom Van Flandren, and it's all centering around Hubble.
		In other words, I'm told that Hubble can look at comet Halebop and make a decision, though it's a narrow window, about whether comets are made up of a solid piece or many smaller orbiting pieces that we see as a solid nucleus, but in fact is not.
		And that would prove the Van Flanderen model that a planet long ago exploded and these comets are pieces of that planet.
		A non-trivial argument.
		NASA, it seems, doesn't want to look at Comet Ailbop as it leaves.
		NASA doesn't particularly want to look at the face on Mars.
		And they don't seem to want to go back to Europa.
		So I would like to get your take on this prior to talking to NASA tomorrow.
		Has NASA been straight with us?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		No, I don't think so.
		I think that the face on Mars, for example, to me, this is a question that can be answered easily.
		It's either an optical illusion or it is some kind of construct.
		And if it's something that has been constructed by intelligent creatures, that proves that there's extraterrestrial life out there and it has inhabited our solar system or invaded our solar system at some point because the proof is there on Mars.
		And we certainly didn't do that.
		In the Randall report, I talk about the STS-48 case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Jack Casher had a series of what he called his proofs, proving that the object seen on that piece of film was not ice crystals.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And here, and he has some amazing proof from the point of view of a scientist of why it couldn't be ice crystals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you know about the now later mission, don't you?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yes.
		But the point is, after you used to be able to watch the NASA missions in real time, and people were downloading the signal and watching it on the NASA Select channel.
		After that piece of film was discovered, NASA decided to delay everything by two hours or four hours or whatever.
unidentified		Exactly.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And the question has to be asked, why?
		Why are you delaying the signals now?
		And the answer has got to be because somebody found something in one of those signals we didn't want the American public to know about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, that's an incredible thought.
		I mean, to imagine that we have been lied to for so many years is just an amazing thought.
		And these people from NASA are so nice, and they explain things away.
		I'll read this letter later, and they seem to have a reason for everything.
		But when you look at the overall picture, the face, Europa, Comet Halebop, observations, all the rest of it, it's like they don't want to know.
		Or that is maybe better said, they know and they don't want us to know.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's look at the Condon Committee just one more time.
		We now have the documentation to prove the whole thing was a setup.
		We have a copy of the letter from the Air Force to the condon committee saying, this is what we want you to find.
		The letter back to the conduct committee says, thank you for telling us.
		And three days later, Condon is in New York saying to a group of scientists, my attitude is right now the Air Force ought to wash its hand of this whole thing.
		There's nothing to it.
		But I'm not supposed to come to that conclusion for another 18 months.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You have that letter?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes, written by a lieutenant colonel named Hipper.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It was discovered by Dr. Mike Swords in the Condon Committee papers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		See, now that should be a reason right there for a congressional investigation.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Absolutely.
		And that's why I say I don't think there's ever been a good scientific investigation of UFOs.
		Condon certainly didn't do it.
		The Robertson panel, the CIA-sponsored study back in 1953.
		And I go through this in great detail in The Conspiracy of Silence.
		But again, Dr. Swords found by putting together the chronology of the Robertson panel, here you have this high-powered guy named Robertson running this four-day investigation of UFOs.
		On Friday night, he says, I'll do the report.
		And by the time they meet the next day, not only has the report been written, it's been reviewed by one committee member and the director of the Air Force, and they've signed off on it.
		Now, how in 1953, before fax machines, computers, and all the high technology we have today, could you write a report on a Friday afternoon or Friday night and get it reviewed by the proper people so that when you show up on Saturday to give the report to the rest of the committee, it's already signed off, so they make a couple of cosmetic changes, and that's the report we get.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unbelievable.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		So it's clearly a setup.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Guard Line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hello.
		Yes, my name is Jeff.
		I'm calling from Cape Gerald, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Jeff.
unidentified		I have to agree with your thoughts on the Big Brotherism.
		I lived here in Southeast Missouri since 1972, and we were having a lot of sightings in the early and mid-70s around a small town called Piedmont, Missouri.
		I don't know if you're familiar with that or not, and we had a lot of cattle mutilations there.
		And we had several people from the university here in Cape Girardeau, one physics professor in particular that had went and did an investigation on these, you know, out in the field every night taking photographs and doing some kind of electronic and magnetic measurements.
		And he wrote a small book on it, and he was so severely slapped down from that, he had to resign his position at the university.
		And he made an honest effort in trying to measure the phenomenon.
		And something was going on because I had seen them myself one summer up around that area.
		And back in the 76 election when Jimmy Carter was running after all this, I remember.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		His promise to tell us all if he became elected?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		I'm wondering what ever happened to that.
unidentified		Why did he not open the files like he told people he did?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Kevin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you know about that, if anything?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Not only that, we've had a number of people who have attempted to ask Carter about that subsequently after he left the presidency, and he refuses to answer the question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I had a fellow who said he went to a book signing by Jimmy Carter, and he actually managed to make eye contact with Jimmy Carter and asked him that question, and tears formed in Carter's eyes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		What we understand is they revealed the truth to Carter, and it was of a nature that he just felt he couldn't pass it along to the rest of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you imagine in your mind what they could have told him that would have been so incredible that Jimmy Carter, who whatever else he was, was an honest guy, put that kind of silence across him?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What could they have told him that would have been so serious, Kevin?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It's kind of like the question of what is so incredible about the Roswell case they can't tell us about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe exactly the same thing.
		Hold on, we're at the top of the hour.
		We'll be right back.
		My guest is Kevin Randall.
		I'm Art Bell, and this, this is CBC.
unidentified		It doesn't...
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am, top of the morning.
		My guest is Kevin Randall, and we're having a very serious discussion about ufology.
		This evening, if you would like to join in, you're welcome to do so.
		We are taking calls.
		Two economic-related items, one versus North American trading.
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		We gotta get over here and see this.
		With a billion life forms in the universe, one of them has found us.
		And it's not friendly.
		We've had several more unexplained deaths.
		I don't understand what's happening.
		Mankind's greatest enemy.
		They're gonna kill us.
		We have to get out of here.
		Mankind's greatest friend.
		There's just six of us left.
		Don't!
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		It has to be us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back now to my guest, Kevin Randall.
		And we were talking about Jimmy Carter.
		Let me go back again to Roswell.
		This is from Sean and Yocavelli.
		Any speculation, Kevin, on why the aliens apparently did not attempt a recovery of their own crashed saucer at Roswell, even though there was a substantial period of time between the crash and notification of the authorities by George Brazel?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, it was actually Mac Brazel.
unidentified		Okay.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		But again, it is speculation, completely and totally speculative.
		My favorite theory is that they were attempting to alert us to their presence in the most non-threatening way they could come up with was a crash saucer and dead aliens.
		What they were attempting to tell us was they were fallible.
		They were not godlike.
		They were like the human race.
		They could make mistakes.
		The problem with that theory is simply that if it didn't work in Roswell, why select Roswell, first of all, because it's such an out-of-the-way place.
		Why not do it somewhere closer to a population center?
		And if it didn't work the first time, why not do it again to make sure that the message gets through?
		I don't understand why they didn't try to recover their craft and the bodies unless they figured the craft was destroyed.
		And once their fellows were dead, there was no reason to risk additional life in an attempt to recover it.
		We just really don't know what the motivation of an alien race would be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, try this one out for size.
		Art, this suggestion may have already been tried, but I haven't heard of it.
		Why not have the top ufologists file a suit against the government in order to call witnesses to present the evidence?
		Short of that, why not get with some production company, broadcast a live trial with real attorneys and a real jury, and present the evidence live, not rehearsed.
		Get a real judge, present the evidence in a court setting.
		If the evidence is there, present it in a forum that will affect the most people.
		Broadcast the trial during the day, and I'll bet the press would love it.
		If you do that, you, in effect, take it away from the tabloids.
		Have it live, not scripted.
		Have it take time, like the OJ trial, so it can sink in.
		Kind of a good idea.
		I wonder if anybody's thought of it, and if they haven't, there's the idea.
		Would that be one approach?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		It certainly would be one approach, but we have to remember that we're dealing with a scientific question as opposed to a legal question.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And the other thing that we always have to look at is what I find particularly persuasive in the way of evidence may not be sufficient to persuade you, or what you find to be persuasive may not be sufficient to persuade me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Witnessed the outcome of the OJ trials.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		We've got a real problem with trying to present the evidence for UFOs, and I think our mistake as ufologists has been not presenting it in a proper scientific setting, not following the proper scientific protocols.
		And if we elevate our standards to the scientific standards, then we may make some progress.
		But that is something that we have not been able to do to this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Let's go back to the phones.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off and speak up for us.
unidentified		Yes, this is Mike from Sacramento.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Mike.
unidentified		Is this still Kevin and Art?
		Yes.
		Oh, yeah.
		When I first put you on the air out here in California, they were talking about the UFOs out in Arizona, and you were also speaking about something in Mexico City.
		I was wondering if KNXV ever put that on the air, the footage in Arizona.
		And also, I was wondering, what were the people just sitting there monitoring air traffic on the radios or something?
		They were wondering why something wasn't breaking communications with ground control or something like that?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm not following you.
unidentified		The UFO stories here about, you know, people actually seeing the stuff at nighttime.
		UFOs.
		Yeah, now that you bring up the topic of UFOs here.
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Again, the Arizona sightings.
		The investigation is ongoing.
		And I don't know where it's going to go.
		I mean, they offered up the whole flare business, Kevin, as an explanation.
		Does that fit with what you know?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		The explanations being offered by the government rarely fits with what we know.
		They feel, I guess they feel compelled to explain them as quickly as they possibly can, regardless of how ridiculous those explanations begin to look.
		And we can go back to the very earliest UFO sightings and see a government attempts to explain these things away.
		Kenneth Arnold, which we were speaking about much, much earlier, I think the government and Donald Menzel, the Harvard astronomer who was the great debunker, offered six or seven different explanations.
		And when somebody found a particular explanation to be ridiculous, well, Menzel had another one, including raindrops on the canopy of the aircraft drifting across the canopy.
		And that apparently Arnold was such an incompetent pilot, he couldn't recognize moisture on the canopy of his aircraft.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that brings us to the great debate about disinformation.
		And I wonder what you believe.
		This is out on the fringe, but maybe it's not.
		There are immediate, sometimes ridiculous, multiple explanations for what something could be.
		STS-48 and the latest footage is a good example.
		Are there active agents, in your opinion, that are part of our government that are out there giving us disinformation?
		Or are we actively doing that ourselves?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think my opinion is we're actively doing it to ourselves.
		I think that after the Roswell case took place, there was an oversight committee developed to exploit the fine.
		And part of that mission may have been to lead people in different directions.
		But we've become so professional at it ourselves in the UFO community, and we have the lunatic fringe that we must deal with that I don't think they feel it's necessary to do it anymore.
		I think it's more misinformation than disinformation.
		I don't think they really have to do anything, just allow us to do it to ourselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about the professional skeptics, the James Randys, the people who make it a business to go out and debunk?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I have yet to understand why they are so rabid in their debunking and that they're so nasty about it.
		That's what I have never been able to understand is why we cannot agree to disagree on something and why they go to such extremes to make those of us who are looking at it seriously seem to be so ridiculous.
		I haven't understood what their motivation is, why they feel so threatened by our attempts to learn something more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
		Going once, going twice, gone.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
		Kevin, I may be doing something wrong here.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I thought maybe everybody got missed.
unidentified		No, no, no, no.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		A wildfire line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try this.
		You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
		Hello?
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you are there.
unidentified		Good.
		My name's George, calling from L.A. Hi, George.
		Kevin, I wonder, have you ever heard any kind of report, official or otherwise, coming from Palomar concerning possible sightings of any kind of UFOs?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Palomar or other observatories.
unidentified		Yeah, I asked that because I, gosh, when I got married in 1950, a guy named Artie Auerbach had a big reunion when my dad came out from New York for the wedding.
		Artie was Mr. Kitzel on the Jack Benny show.
		I don't know if you guys are old enough to remember that.
		He's a guy that had a little Yiddish accent, and he'd say, hello, Mr. Benny, and he'd go through these comic routines.
		Well, Artie, at the wedding dinner, he was telling a story that a friend of his was a scientist at Palomar, and that ever since we started setting off atom bombs, they were tracking large bodies that were going from one planet to another.
		The size of one of them, they said, was roughly three times the size of the Queen Mary.
		And there was one they called the milk run because it was a regular run that they could depend on to show up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I think that is a good question.
		With regard to observatories, they would be very unlikely, I think, to observe anything, for example, scooting about within the atmosphere because that's not what they're looking for.
		But with regard to something moving from one planet to another, yes.
		Observatories, what do we know, if anything, Kevin, about what observatories have seen or when they get anomalous things that they see, do they simply discard it?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		We know that J. Allen Hynek at one time in the early 50s surveyed a bunch of astronomers about their beliefs in UFOs.
		And interestingly enough, Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, who had discovered the planet Pluto, had two UFO sightings himself.
		And of course, Menzel explained them away.
		And I believe Tombaugh as opposed to Menzel.
		We do know that there have been some observations by observatories of bizarre things on the moon, bizarre things on Mars, and suggestions of some kind of craft.
		But they've never been well documented.
		And I think we get back to the ridicule factor, which you don't mean you've seen little green men, do you?
		I talked to James A. Van Allen, a name I'm sure everybody recognizes, the man who discovered the radiation belts.
		I studied astronomy under him.
		I say astronomy.
		I study astronomy.
		I took one astronomy class, and he was the chairman of the department.
		But he said he and I discussed UFOs on a number of occasions, and he always seemed interested in what we were talking about, but never followed up on anything to any great, great level.
		But he also suggested to me that an awful lot of the scientific community, his fellow astronomers who were not as well-established as he was, would be very hesitant to suggest anything, that they would see anything anomalous because they would lose their stature as objective rational scientists.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Yes, hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		This is Craig Newrens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		And with the exception of a rumor regarding aliens activating Russian ICBMs, thus far your discussion has seemed limited to sightings in the U.S. And most ufologists seem to be in the U.S. I wondered if you could give kind of a global expose of this phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question.
		Good, very good question.
		There is more of it here, it seems like, than elsewhere.
		What about that?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If you have access to the internet and some of the news groups, you find people from all over the world posting on them.
		A number of my books have been published in Germany, in Poland, Japan.
		So there is a high interest in UFOs around the world.
		A lot of sightings coming from South America.
		There was a massive wave, for example, in 1954 of South American sightings and French sightings.
		There's a huge community of ufologists in Italy.
		There was a big meeting of ufologists in Israel not too long ago.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Lee and Britt Elders are down in Mexico City right now, where it has become so normal that people don't even pay attention.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, absolutely.
		So it is clearly a worldwide phenomenon.
		And again, I think it's our own narrow view.
		I mean, we're interested in what's happening in our country.
		And, of course, the news media isn't interested in carrying UFO stories from around the world unless there's some kind of spectacular event that happens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't even carry them when they're here, much less somewhere else.
		That's true.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, Arbill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		It's an honor to speak to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I am Dawn in Vancouver, British Columbia.
		Okay.
		I sent you an email two days ago.
		I'm wondering if you got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About what?
unidentified		About the quickening happening in the Pacific Northwest and the Vancouver region and area.
		About how some of my visions I see Vancouver and British Columbia still being here after this awakening.
		And I'm tuned to a station that is telling me and some of my collective people that I'm with that it's happening and somehow it's situated that this area will be here.
		But my question, nonetheless, do you know if there was any sort of streak of UFOs in 1996?
		I did hear of some of in Michigan, but as well in British Columbia area here of rotating nerf-like boomerang discs that pulsated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, since you're in British Columbia, maybe you can help us out.
		Sure.
		Your CBC there and other media, do they report?
unidentified		I would have to say that you do have another person that calls from Vancouver who I would like to say he's not too brilliant because he keeps going on with the same stupid electromagnetic magnets.
		But the people that do broadcast around here, I'd have to say, are pretty docile in the media and they're not so restricted.
		So they're more likely to say something.
		And I have heard local radio stations have talked about it, had people call in.
		It's almost like a natural thing.
		It's not like you're on the west coast of Vancouver where everybody's known to smoke pot and drugs.
		It's not that kind of scene.
		It's more of a natural.
		It's more of a station that we're tuning into.
		It's almost crazy.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right, so they do report on it.
unidentified		They do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I suppose we ought to touch on this.
		I just wrote a book, Kevin.
		I'm sure you know.
		It's called the quickening.
		And I think it conclusively proves that human events...
		It may not at all.
		But human events in nearly every category are increasing in pace at an exponential rate, socially, economically, politically, geophysically, environmentally.
		You pick the category, and things appear to be speeding up.
		And maybe it's related in some way to ufology, and maybe it is not.
		There are a lot of people that hope that it is, that somebody is going to come along and save our butts from the sky at the last minute.
		What do you think?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That seems to be a idea that they're going to come and save us from the sky seems to be kind of a religious icon, if you will.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Just about.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That's what people have talked about for literally millennia.
		And now, instead of gods coming down to save us, it's going to be space aliens.
		I think we're capable of saving ourselves.
		Which is not to say events aren't quickening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's correct.
		I believe they are.
		And I also believe that there is no firm evidence that anybody's going to save our butts but ourselves.
		And I'm beginning to wonder about us.
		First time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, where are you?
unidentified		I'm in Cheyenne.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Cheyenne, Wyoming?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was born in Cheyenne, Wyoming.
		Are you work?
		Well, I figure when I visit there, I'm probably the only person in the town who was born in Cheyenne.
unidentified		Yeah, my name's William.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And I've got two questions for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Far away.
unidentified		Okay, the first question is, do you possibly believe, okay, now this might sound a little crazy, that we might have actually been aliens at one time, travelers and that actually landed on Earth and that we adapted to Earth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, are we the ancestors of what we consider ETs?
unidentified		Yeah.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Kevin?
		There have been suggestions that life on Earth was transplanted from other planets in other solar systems a long time ago.
		I think that we have been, and I say we, the human race has been on Earth long enough that we've evolved through various stages.
		I think the fossil record is very clear about that.
		Well, maybe I shouldn't say very clear because they keep changing what the fossil record says.
		But it seems to be that there is good, solid evidence that we, Homo sapiens, have been around for four or five million years now, which is not to say that sometime prior to that we couldn't have been transplanted to Earth.
		But it seems that life originated on Earth through a series of events that are not ET driven.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Kevin, hold on.
		We'll do another half hour with Kevin Randall.
		I'm Art Bell, and this is the CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		CBC Radio Network
		CBC Radio Network Call art bell, toll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and I want to remind the audience, tomorrow night for the first time, NASA reacts in the personage of Don Savage, who is the Public Affairs Officer, the Office of Space Science and Ray Villard, who is the public affairs officer for the Hubble Space Sciences Institute, both apparently NASA taxpayer-funded organizations.
		They wrote me a two-page letter after the last appearance of Richard Hoagland, and so they are obviously reacting.
		They would rather not, in fact, they said they would rather not, confront Mr. Hoagland on the air.
		I'm sad about that, but their reasoning was that we've had Mr. Hoagland on many times by himself, and they wanted the opportunity to present their information in the same manner, and I found that hard to refuse, so they will be here tomorrow night.
		And my guest right now is Kevin Randall, and we're going to get back to him in just a moment.
		And I've got a very, very, very good question for Kevin relating to the Security Act and the thing that most people say they are forced to sign and that thing that prevents them from coming forward.
		Are you overweight?
		Would you like to lose an average 8 to 10 pounds if with those symptoms?
		So call 1-800-249-6060.
		Again, 1-800-249-6060.
		All right.
		Kevin, Kevin Randall is my guest, author of many books, History of UFO Crashes, and most recently, The Randall Report and others.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		By the way, where can people get the Randall Report?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Should be available in bookstores, everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everywhere, huh?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		With any luck at all.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a question for you.
		When talking with someone who has worked at a place like Area 51 or other highly sensitive sites, there seems to be one common thread.
		The first thing the person says is, look, I signed a National Security Act and I could go to prison for even talking about what I did or saw.
		Is Kevin aware of anybody, anybody who has ever been put in prison or claims to have been put in prison because they violated that act?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		In relation to UFOs, no.
		And I think most of the time there's a limit on how long you have to remain silent.
		And the longest I've heard is 15 years that after they've been released from whatever service they were in, whatever they were doing, 15 years is the longest, and it's for people that dealt with extremely sensitive materials, which is not to say that there aren't people who, in special circumstances, aren't obligated to keep the secret for a much longer period of time.
		But standard, it's seven years or 10 years or 12 years is pretty standard, especially with dealing with classified top-secret material, because the stuff, frankly, is perishable.
		I mean, after the argument against, for example, an experimental aircraft crashing at Roswell, what could we possibly have been experimenting with in 1947 that is not going to be seriously outclassed by the latest generation of military aircraft?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they claimed it was a balloon train designed to look for Russian nuclear testing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, and one hell of a fine balloon train, too.
		Of course, there's no documentation to prove that.
		There's no evidence of it, and nobody saw it, but that's okay.
		We'll buy that one anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hi.
		Good evening, Art.
		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Wilkesbury, Pennsylvania.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yell into that phone for us.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're not too loud.
unidentified		Okay.
		My question for Kevin is he wrote a book called The October Scenario.
		And unless I'm not understanding the book properly, it seemed at the time that he was arguing the case that the only valid saucer sightings were those or the only occupant encounters that were valid were those that took place in October of 1973.
		Yet to hear him tonight, he seems to be singing a different song altogether.
		Does he have any comment?
		Could he elaborate on what his mindset was at the time and how it has changed?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		You're absolutely correct.
		When I wrote the October scenario, the idea that I had was we had been so busy arguing about the reality of the phenomenon when it really happened to us in October of 1973.
		We were so busy with the reality that we didn't take time to see what was actually going on.
		Since I wrote that book, I have continued my investigations and have been presented with evidence that persuaded me that there were other very valid UFO sightings, Roswell, of course, being the granddaddy of them all.
		And so when people present me with that book now and say, well, can you give me an autograph?
		I normally write into it very good information, but the theory is badly flawed.
		So the theory has been disproven.
		So you ignore the few pages that deal with the theory about only October of 1973 being a valid UFO sightings and take a look at the information that is presented in the other arenas.
		So that's a theory that I had developed, and it just didn't pan out.
unidentified		Okay, thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much.
		Kevin, I'm going to have two NASA guys here tomorrow night.
		Pretty unusual opportunity.
		They're both public affairs kind of guys, respectively.
		But if you could ask either one of them or NASA itself a question, what would you ask?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, gee.
		There's so many things that spring to mind immediately.
		I think I would try to pin them down on the stories of astronaut sightings of UFOs.
		Are those stories suppressed?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, if you or anybody else would like to submit a list of questions that you think would be fun to ask when you actually have NASA right here, feel free to do so.
		Fax them to me.
		I'll ask them.
		Okay, I can do that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I can do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is an unusual opportunity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would really have preferred to have Richard Hoagland or yourself or somebody of your stature here to ask them questions.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		They don't want to do that.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I have to respect that.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can kind of understand where they're coming from, too, because you do offer us an opportunity to kind of go at them without them having a chance to respond to them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		So it's only fair that they get a program to themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		I found that a very compelling argument.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard was kind of upset about it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I bet he would have loved to confront them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course, he would.
		Of course, he would.
		And I understand that, but it is a compelling argument, and I do give people their own time here.
		So maybe we can give them their time and then have them back and perhaps have some form of debate at that point.
		But if you have any questions, get them to me, and I promise you I will ask.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
unidentified		Hello?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes, my name is Richard.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'm calling from L.A. I'm down here in business, but I heard Mr. Randall talking about a letter that he received from Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Hibler.
		And I'm a retired Air Force person and happened to know two people whose last name is Hibler that are possibly lieutenant colonels right now in the Air Force.
		One works for the National Security Agency and the other works for the OSI.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see if they're the same person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are their personalities?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		His name was Hipler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hipler.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Hiplathe B-L-E-R?
unidentified		H-I-P-P-L-E R. Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And he was a lieutenant colonel in 1967.
unidentified		Okay.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the two people I'm referring to are named Hibler.
		They're both psychologists.
		One works for the National Security Agency.
		The other works for the Office of Special Investigations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but they're obviously not the same person.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		They're not the same person.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I just thought maybe that's what it was.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Good shot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Kevin Randall.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yeah, I was wanting to ask Kevin about what he thinks about the Bentwater incident.
		Ah.
		And I also think if NASA would confront Richard, it'd be better than upcoming Tyson and Holafield fights.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would be, but I really found their argument compelling, and I really couldn't say no, and I hope you understand.
unidentified		I understand that, Art.
unidentified		I'm just so glad you finally got them to respond.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		It's great to hear them both talk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it'll be interesting.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling about 100 miles west of Memphis, Tennessee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think one thing before I answer the question, we need to point out is that we are getting these government agencies that had ignored us to this point to actually respond to us.
		And I think, again, of the Air Force report in September of 1995, where they came out with their Kakamame Project Mobile explanation.
		But what is more important than that is why does the Air Force suddenly feel compelled to respond to a bunch of UFO nuts?
		If there's nothing to the Roswell case, what do they care what we think?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, they are a publicly funded agency.
		NASA is.
		And so they do, when they begin to get enough faxes and enough feedback, they begin to care.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And that's the point.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		We can force them to respond to us by keeping the pressure up.
unidentified		There's as much documentation on the Bentwater as there is Roswell.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's ask them.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		It's really true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about Bentwaters?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Bentwaters, I think, is a very, very important case.
		We have an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel, for example, sending a letter to the Ministry of Defense in Great Britain talking about the events.
		We have physical evidence left on the ground.
		We have some very highly credible people telling a story of what happened to them at Bentwaters.
		I think it's a highly significant case and that it should be pursued.
		And what most people don't know is there was a case that took place in 1956 from the Bentwaters area, a radar case that has been pretty well ignored in the UFO literature.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's also a case in Michigan, a radar case.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		You know about that?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		There's a large number of radar cases.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I actually had the audio of that.
		It was incredibly compelling.
		I've still got it somewhere.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And see, that's the thing.
		Arthur C. Clarke, for example, on his program Mysterious Universe, whatever the name of it is, said at one point that he was inclined not to believe in UFOs because there were no radar cases.
		And my response is always been, first of all, even if there were no radar cases, doesn't our stealth technology render that argument obsolete?
		But secondly, there are some very, very compelling radar cases that suggest the objects, multiple sites, multiple radar sites, multiple witnesses, aircraft intercepts of these things in a single incident that's extremely important.
		And I think Bentwaters, it ranks right up there as one of the important cases because of the credibility of witnesses such as Colonel Halt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Top three, top five.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I think it's clearly in the top ten.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Hint.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Okay, am I on, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you are.
unidentified		Okay, good evening, Art.
		And Kevin.
		Yeah, I can tell you this, Kevin, that I've been on two black programs, and they were seven years was the debriefing on it.
		But I had a question for you.
		And actually, it was a dispatch I sent to Art.
		But anyway, the question is, have you ever run across, I think it was a Major Kehoe, K-E-H-O-E?
		Are you aware who he is?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely, yes.
unidentified		Yeah, well, I think that I just wondered if you had any, in other words, you could validate his efforts or whatever.
unidentified		I think he'd be a great guest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maury, who is Major Kehoe?
unidentified		He was ahead of the Project Blue Book.
unidentified		He was assigned there either in the late 50s or early.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, he was not the head of Blue Book.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		He was the head of NICAP, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena.
unidentified		Well, I was considered a Blue Book.
		But anyway, I read some of the writings, and I really never got too much off of it because I could get other information.
		It was much better than what I got out of Project Blue Book.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If Art Bell could get Major Kehoe on his program, it would be a real coup because the man's been dead for a number of years.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, on this program, you never ruled out.
unidentified		I'm right to ask that question.
unidentified		Oh, Lord.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, Major Kehoe, Major Kehoe worked with Lindbergh at one point, flew chase planes for Lindbergh.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And he's been around forever, and he did an awful lot to bring forward the hidden cases from the Pentagon and suggest that things in the UFO field, Project Blue Book, for example, were not what the public was being led to believe and exposed quite a bit of the cover-up himself.
unidentified		Well, maybe you know some of his associates or something that could interview.
unidentified		We have to have a live one, hope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not necessarily.
unidentified		Major Keho, calm down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kevin Randall wants to speak to you.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Never rule it out.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I actually spoke to Kehoe twice, met him in person once and spoke to him on the telephone one time 20 years ago when his career was in the decline.
		And a number of the people from NICAP are still around.
		Nick Hall, for example, the Fund for UFO Research is still out running around loose in Maryland or Virginia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who would you pick to interview since Major Keogh seems more or less unavailable?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		If you're looking for someone from that era, we've lost an awful lot of those people.
		I mean, the Lorenzens would have been good, although they hid some information that they should have shared with the public.
		Dick Hall might be an interesting guest, although he and he was from that era and worked with those people at NICAM, so he might be a very interesting guest.
		I'm not sure he can do three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Wildcard line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall, who can do three hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
unidentified		Yes, it's Frank in Seattle.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Frank.
unidentified		Hi, how are you doing?
		Listen, I communicated to NASA myself the other day, and I got a response back from...
		Well, they may have sent something like that, but I've got it from Doug Isbel, who was the person they contacted as a NASA spokesman in the Orlando Sentinel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		And he wrote back to me that NASA is not canceling any plans to explore Europa.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's not technically accurate.
		They did not approve two proposals to go to Europa.
		They, quote, did not make the cut.
		And I have that from Don Savage, who's going to be with us tomorrow night.
		Those were his words.
		They did not make the cut.
unidentified		So these might be some questions to ask him in regards to this, because I've got this quote from Doug Isabel that says exactly NASA is not canceling any plans.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it's a matter.
		But, sir, I'm telling you, it's a matter of phraseology, the way they put it.
		It didn't, the proposals didn't make the cut.
		We'll have Don Savage here tomorrow night, the man who said that, okay?
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From NASA, so we don't have to wonder about that.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I am in Yorvalinda, California.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Yorvalinda, all right.
unidentified		My question is, do we know anything about the Aurora, the hypersonic reconnaissance aircraft?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Whether it's real or not?
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good question, Kevin, and let's fold that into a bigger question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Aurora and other aircraft that appeared to be producing great big sonic booms that come cascading in off the Pacific and go kaboom in San Diego and Southern California.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think according to the United States Air Force, there is no Aurora program.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, according to the United States Air Force, there's also no Area 51.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, and I've been out there and I've never seen Area 51, so.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, but you know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I live in Verum, Nevada, and I tell this story because it's true.
		Any morning about 4.30, you want to go down by our VSW here in Verum.
		There will be several buses sitting out there, and right on the very side of them, it will say Area 51.
		And they are there waiting to take employees to the non-existent Area 51.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		Every morning.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think we are developing the next generation of military aircraft, and I'm not sure exactly what the capabilities are.
		And if it's not Aurora, if they've changed the code name on it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
		They've merely changed the code name.
		And that's one of the things that the Air Force did with their UFO investigation.
		They said, well, we had Project Sign.
		We closed it down.
		It doesn't exist anymore.
		And all they did was change the name to Project Grudge.
		Then they announced that Project Grudge had been closed down.
		And all they've done was change the name to Project Blue Book.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I never liked that name, Grudge.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think it was just they just picked it on a list.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		They have a list of code names that they can use, and it was the next one up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they're a political group, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, they've got to know that Grudge sounds bad.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And then Blue Book was closed down, and they said we don't investigate UFOs anymore, and this is an absolutely ridiculous thing.
		And we can prove Project Moondust, for example, had, as part of its mission, an investigation of UFOs.
		We can prove that through the documentation.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Project Moondust.
		Interesting name.
		What was that?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Moondust was put together to recover returning space debris of foreign manufacture or unknown origin.
		And of course, unknown origin could refer to UFOs.
		But documentation recovered that says Project Moondust clearly dealt with UFOs.
		So while they might not only be picking up Soviet satellites that fell somewhere, and not necessarily in the United States, but anywhere in the world, they also, part of the mission, could be recovering alien technology.
		And their UFO mission is well documented now through Freedom of Information documents that have come through the State Department and things like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a bunch of very interesting revelations that came one after the other.
		The microbial life on the Mars rock, in the Mars rock, the water on the moon that we discovered with SDI technology, and then, of course, NASA up on Nightline.
		This is where they're going to have a hard time jumping up and down about the pictures that they've got from Europa, where they believe there is a high probability that there could be life.
		I mean, they were just on Nightline jumping up and down about it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, what's interesting also, if you go back to the SETI program and Frank Grake's equation about is there life on other planets in the galaxy, in our galaxy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And it had always been, we had to postulate the fact there were planets around other stars.
		We didn't know this for a fact.
		We guessed there Were because we didn't think the solar system was unique.
		And we had to guess about the possibility of life developing wherever it was able to develop.
		And that, again, was a guess.
		And so, what's happened in the last year, we've discovered planets around other stars in our neck of the galaxy, which suggests that there are literally trillions of planets out there.
		And the fact that if life developed on Mars as well as on Earth, then that suggests that life will develop on any planet that is capable of supporting it.
		So the idea that there is intelligent life on other planets is leaped forward, I think, immensely in the last year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do I. And I wonder what's behind it.
		All right, listen, we are at the end of the hour, and I can offer you two possibilities.
		One, you can go to sleep now, or two, you can stay for another hour.
		Your choice.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I'd be delighted to stay for another hour if you'd like.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I would like.
		So sit right there, and we'll be back to you.
		Got a pretty good break here.
		It is the top of the hour.
		I'm Art Bell.
		I think we've got about one or two openings in our cruise situations.
		We're going to Alaska August 23rd, then we're going to Egypt and elsewhere October 1st.
		If you're interested in coming along, call 1-800-633-2732.
		That's 1-800-633-2732.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		1500 KSTP 1500 KSTP Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Once again, here I am.
		You are going to send your mother flowers on Mother's Day, aren't you?
		Just about everybody does.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Magic number to call in the morning at 7.30 Pacific Time is 1-800-522-8863.
		1-800-522-8863, the Sea Crane Company.
		Now, don't say I did not give you warning.
		Tomorrow night, NASA is going to be here.
		Two NASA people, as a matter of fact.
		One, Don Savage, he comes from the Office of Space Science.
		And Ray Villard, who comes from the Hubble Space Sciences Institute.
		So, if you have specific questions that you would like me to ask, fax them to me sometime between now and tomorrow night's show, or email them.
		If you want to email, it's artbell at aol.com.
		That's artbell at aol.com.
		If you want to fax them, it's area code 702-727-8499.
		702-727-8499.
		Back now to Kevin Randall.
		Kevin, are you there?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I certainly am.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're holding up rather well.
unidentified		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, thank you.
		Let's try the phones.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
		Hi.
unidentified		Hey, Kevin Randall, this is Joseph from L.A. How are you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty good.
unidentified		Hey, how's the other side of the parallel universe look to you?
		Is it somewhat obscure over there?
		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know what that means, but Kevin, it is a good question regarding where these things come from.
		Is it in your mind equally possible that instead of coming from another place through space, as we imagine transit at the speed of light or even greater?
		Or is it equally possible they come from another parallel dimension of some sort?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		My personal belief is it's more likely they are from another planet in our dimension, in our galaxy.
		I think it is less plausible, less likely that they are interdimensional.
		I think it's less likely than that that they might be time travelers from our future.
		It just seems to me the evidence seems to suggest they are from our dimension outside of our solar system.
		But these other answers, until we have a final explanation for what UFOs are, can't be ruled out.
		They're just not as likely as the extraterrestrial hypothesis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think it likely there are dimensions that we will eventually discover that we're not aware of?
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		No?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		That's when I really don't know.
		I can see the possibility, and as a big fan of science fiction, I've actually written science fiction novels, things like that.
		We postulate a lot of things in science fiction.
		Science fiction supposedly is predicated upon our science.
		We just move it to the next level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Projection.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And we're always talking in science fiction about interdimensional travel or parallel universes or things of that nature.
		But I don't know if that is reality.
		I just don't see that really as being reality.
		But there's always that possibility, I guess, out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, one thing we know there is, is time.
		We don't understand much of the nature of it.
		People speculate it could be man's invention, that there really is no time other than that which we manage to discern and tick off by planets going around suns and counting the time that we need some way to count it all.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And, of course, Einstein postulated a method of time travel, but it only moves us into the future, not moving into the back, the past.
		Unless, of course, you can go far enough into the future that you end up in the past.
		And so there's all sorts of speculations that go on out there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A grand circle, huh?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		if you go far enough in a straight line from the Earth, you'll eventually come back to the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you look at what conventional science says about the Big Bang, it seems to look out about 15 billion years and say the objects that we can see, as far as we can see, it's about 15 billion years.
		And that the Big Bang all began from one central point and began throwing objects in an outward direction.
		And the most distant we can see is about 15 billion years out.
		Well, a really good question is, what's beyond that?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And I think if we could see, if we could see, then there would be objects behind that, because every time we've limited ourselves on how far we can see out from the Earth, new technology pushes that limit back.
		Because I seem to remember 25 years ago reading something that we could see about 6 billion years out, and now it's 15 billion years.
		And the Hubble is pushing that back even further.
		So, yeah, who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, then, what is that going to do to the whole Big Bang theory?
		Does it mean there was more than one Big Bang, that there are other, that there is something beyond?
		I mean, you have to imagine there is something beyond that 15 billion light-year mark.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And let's say we could see beyond that to 20 billion light years.
		Well, does that mean there's something beyond that?
		And then we start talking about the concept of infinity, which often boggles our minds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, mine included.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Yes, I got two things.
unidentified		Number one, this morning between five minutes and six minutes past one on CBS radio, it was reporting something about the Roswell 50th anniversary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		The government claims what crashed in Roswell was a top secret balloon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a balloon train, they call it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a balloon.
		Actually, the balloon itself was not top secret.
		The project it was assigned to was top secret.
		What the government and the Air Force has done very carefully is suggest there was something special about these balloons, when in fact there weren't.
		They were regular weather balloons and ray wind targets, easily identifiable.
		In fact, they were of such little intelligence value that two days after the Roswell event was announced in the newspaper in Roswell, newspapers around the country carried pictures of one of those balloon trains and a ladder in one of the pictures.
		Charles Moore, who was one of the project members, told me that they bought that ladder from Petty Cash.
		So it was of such little intelligence value that we've got photographs published in the newspapers two days after the event.
unidentified		I've got one other thing, and I'll let you go.
		Surely.
		There was a radio talk show I was listening to in 1979 on WLWL in Cincinnati.
		It was an open forum.
		And a gentleman called in and said in the early 1970s at a drive-in theater.
		I don't know if this was on a Friday or Saturday night, but there was approximately 200 people there.
		And this flying saucer just all of a sudden appeared out of nowhere and was flying all over the place, like a go down a block and it'd fly back and it'd go back down two blocks and fly back for 30 minutes.
		Was you ever aware of this incident?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Not that one specifically, but I've heard similar things of UFO made an appearance over a football game and 80,000 people saw it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		80,000?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		80,000 people saw this thing.
		And so the Air Force, the Air Force and the government would have us believe that UFO sightings are very rare and very few people see them.
		And the less education you have, the less sophistication you have, the more likely you are to see flying saucers.
		And the evidence just doesn't bear that out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You would not imagine, no matter what these things are, that it would relate in any way at all to educational level, except perhaps as the likelihood of reporting it might be.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think what they're suggesting there is that the more education you have, the more likely you will be able to identify the object as being astronomical or weather-related or maybe an aircraft.
		I think that's what they're suggesting.
		So it's the unsophisticated people that see flying saucers because they don't know what's in the sky around them.
		And that's just not borne out.
		In fact, the Air Force had a habit, if you saw a flying saucer on more than one occasion, they usually wrote it off as a psychological problem because you clearly weren't smart enough to identify things.
		And seeing a flying saucer was such a rare event, you'd only seen on one occasion.
		You'd only have one opportunity.
		And of course, Clyde Tombaugh, as I said, who discovered Pluto, had seen UFOs on two separate occasions.
		So that means he's an unreliable observer, even though he discovered the planet Pluto.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So Pluto must not be there?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think we now have good scientific evidence that Pluto is, in fact, there.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Although I heard it's a real Mickey Mouse planet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning, gentlemen.
		Good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Chicago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Chicago, okay.
unidentified		Didn't you hear somebody who had just written a book at one time, Art, who mentioned the fact that Menzel was a government agent, I believe?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That who was?
unidentified		Menzel from Harvard.
		I know I read that.
		I know I did read that, because I remember.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Well, actually, actually, if you go back, Thornton Page and Carl Sagan did a book.
		They had arranged a symposium at an AIAA meeting about UFOs, and in the course of Menzel's lecture, he mentioned that he had been, of course, working for the government in a decrypting capability during the Second World War.
		And I don't find that particularly heinous.
		I mean, anybody who was any kind of scientific capability in the Second World War, I think, contributed to our effort to win the war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I remember hearing the person who wrote this book say that he went to the home of Mesla after he was dead, introduced himself to the guy's wife, said he was writing a book and he wanted to include him.
		She was very flattered and allowed him to delve into personal papers.
		And there in the papers he found this one paper which identified him as having been hired by the government, so to speak, to debunk UFOs.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I don't think any evidence that he was actually hired by the government to debunk UFOs, although he did do that.
		And if you go back and you take a look at the Project Blue Book files, although he's never listed as one of the consultants, you see throughout the Project Blue Book files Menzel's handiwork.
		In fact, the Project Blue Book files as they are now, they've expunged all the names of the witnesses, and there's a letter, and the letterhead says Harvard Observatory.
		And of course, the name of the author has been blanked out, and the signature has been blanked out, but at the bottom it says DHM, which is Donald H. Menzel, which is clearly it's Menzel writing this letter explaining some UFO case.
		So he had an active role in debunking UFOs for the government, but I think it was more, as we talked about, I think in the last hour, it was just something that he felt compelled to do that he just didn't want anybody to believe in UFOs.
		I even have a letter from Menzel where he suggests that people who see UFOs or claim to see UFOs are just damn liars.
unidentified		Well, I do remember definitely the person who wrote the book being interviewed said this.
		As far as people working at observatories, I met somebody here in Chicago in 1969, a young man approximately 30 years old who was working full-time, going to college at night.
		And we got into a conversation about UFOs at a time when you couldn't talk openly about it without being ridiculed.
		So he told me privately, after becoming sure that I was a believer in UFOs, that his father, and he asked me not to repeat it at that time, that his father had worked at Polymer for many years and had seen UFOs on many occasions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would think astronomers are probably, I don't want to report one of those.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That kind of thing.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Art.
		I think that a lot of times if you report something like that, then your colleagues began to laugh at you, even though privately.
		And that's something else.
		I found that if you sit down with people one-on-one and you talk about them, they're much more likely to express a belief in UFOs than if you get them in a large group where other people can laugh at them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or on a radio program like this.
		Kevin, what the press, the media, and possibly the government does to ufology is bad enough.
		But when you're in any discussion about ufology in general, I think you can't avoid a question like the one I'm about to ask you.
		It seems to me the community does to itself at least or more than is done to it from the outside.
		I mean, you've got ufologists calling each other CIA clients, disinformation agents.
		There's very little agreement.
		There's a whole lot of infighting going on.
		Has that lessened or is it still going on?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I think it's not only still going on, it's probably increased.
		And I've always said the standard of success in the UFO community is when you get labeled a government agent.
		You know, you've arrived when people feel enough venom against you to call you a government agent.
		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, in that case, then I've made it.
		I've been called, and you know how I began to deal with it?
		People would call up and they'd say, you're CIA, aren't you?
		And I just finally began to say, sure, so what?
		And they go, okay, thank you.
		Goodbye.
		I gave up on it.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And the problem also in the UFO field is we, I think Whitley Spieberg has said it, that we tend to eat our young.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		And he is absolutely correct.
		I think there's no problem with disagreeing with one another if, for example, Stan Friedman and I disagree on some aspects of the Roswell case, for example.
		I don't think there's a problem with us disagreeing about that because we agree on the basic premise that there was some kind of an extraterrestrial event.
		But if we degenerate into calling each other names, well, you cannot trust Kevin Randall because he writes fiction, for example.
		First of all, the fact that I have actually written science fiction is completely and totally irrelevant.
		And why would my day job disqualify me from UFO research when no one else's day job seems to disqualify him?
		That is not right.
		And we do an awful lot of that in the UFO community, calling each other names.
		And that hurts us.
		The Air Force, in their report in 1995, made a big deal out of the fact that the ufologists couldn't agree on the exact date of the crash.
		Well, first of all, we don't have the documentation the Air Force has.
		But second of all, we agreed that it was the first week in July of 1947.
roger leir ▲ ● ▼		So if the Air Force is suggesting that there's this big disagreement over the date and somehow this as if to suggest that if we could just get the date right, why they'd admit it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, exactly.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Or that somehow that we've created this big problem for us because there's no agreement on the date, how can they possibly research their files and find anything?
		Well, geez, we agree on it happening somewhere between the 2nd of July and the 5th of July, the crash taking place.
		This does not seem to me to present a big, major problem.
		And if we had access to the files and the FOIA request that we filed, then we could answer that question specifically.
		But the fact we don't agree on the precise date is really irrelevant.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wild Guard Line, you're on the air with Kevin Randall.
unidentified		Hello.
		Good morning, gentlemen.
		I'm calling from Roswell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Roswell, speaking of.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Now, would that be Roswell, New Mexico, or Roswell, Georgia?
unidentified		That would be New Mexico, Kevin.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, well, good for you.
unidentified		You know Clifford Stone, don't you?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
unidentified		Yeah, he's the one that wrote the original article on Moondust, right?
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		He is the one actually that turned me on to Moondust.
		And he went to a great deal of effort to explain to me what Project Moondust was.
		And I was ignoring that because I was more interested in what was going on with Roswell, but he was the one that alerted me to Project Moondust.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious, how do you people in Roswell feel about all this attention on this subject?
unidentified		Well, I could only speak for myself.
		It's half good, half bad.
		I mean, you go around other cities and people ask you where you're from, and they associate you with aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you say Roswell, and they say E.G.s.
sean david morton ▲ ● ▼		I can actually go you one better than that.
		I was sending a letter to Jesse Marcel Jr., and I went to the local post office to post it, and the woman working behind the counter said, is this the guy that saw the flying saucer.
		I said, Well, yes, it actually is.
		Do you know him?
		Yes, I actually do.
unidentified		I have a short story for you guys, real quick.
		A friend of mine went into a local health food store a couple of weeks ago, and he said he saw this lady pull up behind him with Texas license plates.
		Well, he got out, went inside the store.
		The lady got out, followed him in, and while my friend was looking around for whatever he wanted to buy, he heard the lady go up to the lady at the cash register say, Where's the best place to see aliens?
		So, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In Roswell there?
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
unidentified		Well, believe me, little green men run around here all the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you.
		I live in Paramp, adjacent to, or not far from Area 51, and we get the same questions all the time, and there are some good answers to it, by the way.
		All right.
		Listen, Kevin, we're at the bottom of the hour.
		Hang tight.
		We'll be right back to you.
		My guest is Kevin Randall, the subject ufology.
		I'm Art Bell, and this, of course, is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hey, listen up, guys.
unidentified		rookie here to tell you about the perfect Call Art Bell, toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is that.
		Good morning.
		I'm Mark Bell.

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