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April 17, 1997 - Art Bell

03:13:52

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C. Hoagland - Comet Hale-Bopp

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	Have you heard the good news?
	The good news is Energex Plus and all...
	Hey, geography scholars, Minnesota is east of the Rockies and you're listening to AM 1500 KSTV.
	♪♪ From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I
	From the high desert in the great American southwest, I want to bid you good evening
	want to bid you good evening and good morning and welcome.
	and good morning and welcome.
	My name is John and I am the Director of the American Society for the Deaf and Hard of
	Hearing.
	I am the Director of the American Society for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing.
	As those moons swung close to Europa, then retreated, the varying gravitational forces squeezed and relaxed the rocky core Heating it in the process.
	Heat, folks.
	This, he said, would melt the icy crust that apparently cloaks the Jovian moon.
	Only the outer surface, which is exposed to the intense cold of space, remains frozen.
	The ocean below could easily contain more water than is in Earth's oceans.
	And like in Earth's oceans, he went on, life could exist near volcanic venting.
	Hoagland's ideas about Europa appeared as the cover story in the January 1980 issue of Star and Sky.
	Given the potential importance of the concept, I issued a news release to coincide with the issue's publication.
	It was picked up by all the major news services, and that story ran in hundreds of newspapers.
	It appeared in the Toronto Star on December 27th, 1979 under the headline, By Jupiter!
	Maybe there is alien life in space.
	Then, instead of Hoagland's ideas appearing in textbooks, NASA brochures and other publications about the solar system, they were ignored.
	Today, Hoagland almost never receives credit for his Europa work.
	Why?
	He was never part of the establishment science, and he's moved much further from it than he was back in 1979.
	Today, he champions the idea that aliens build a rock formation called the Face on Mars.
	Few scientists want to even be remotely associated with a, quote, kook, no matter how brilliant his ideas.
	Once again, of course, the American press, once they have decided upon the way a story shall be told, are never bothered by anything so trivial as the facts.
	Something I've learned very carefully over the last several weeks.
	However, it should be noted that on Nightline some nights ago, Ted Koppel gave Richard C. Hoagland a long-deserved credit.
	Uh, for having, uh, uh, come up first with a theory of what Europa really was all about.
	And well-deserved credit it is.
	Here from New York City is Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi, Richard!
	Good evening.
	Hi.
	Good evening.
	Well, that's really nice because Terry was the first one to appreciate this kook.
	In all his kookiness.
	You know, it was very heady stuff, because at that point, we were very naive.
	We really felt that if we found extraordinary things, we could lay out extraordinary tales and stories and follow up with extraordinary evidence, and we'd go forward.
	And I must say, in seeing Terrence's piece tonight, I was struck by how much we have learned and how saddened We are to now realize that we were living in a fool's paradise.
	There are a handful of people, somehow in NASA, who guide and determine what we get to know on a timetable of when we get to know it.
	And those who are not in the club are simply not invited to participate.
	It is assisted, Richard, by a very, very lazy American press.
	In other words, they will take a press release from NASA and treat it as the Holy Grail, and anything that would argue or contend with that is not even dealt with.
	I found that out, Richard, over the last several weeks.
	After all this Heaven's Gate business, the press will decide how it wants to tell a story.
	And God help anybody who wants to get in the way of that with a presentation of actual factual material.
	They're going to tell it their way, no matter what.
	Well, I think you could say that that was the case up until maybe two or three years ago.
	And now, because of the internet, because of the very interesting competition between the so-called mainstream media and the so-called tabloid press, and how many times have we seen the New York Times laud the National Enquirer for being first on a decent story?
	I mean, I remember when I was at CBS, we used the National Enquirer to wipe our shoes.
	It was kind of lying there as waste paper every morning.
	Things are changing in media land and I really can see the day when far out ideas are treated as they should be which is unproven but not kooky just because they're far out.
	Who was it who used to say the truth is stranger than fiction?
	If anyone had told me tonight that we would be conducting this show Where we're apparently at DEFCON 4 at Cheyenne Mountain.
	Yeah.
	A $9 million ground attack aircraft has somehow disappeared for 12 plus days in Colorado.
	You know, government officials are nervously looking over their shoulders as we approach the anniversary of Oklahoma City and of Waco.
	And there are strange things appearing on our satellites in the stratosphere.
	If anybody had told me, you know, even two years ago that we'd be sitting on the radio discussing, you know, the validation by NASA of my theory of alien life 27 years ago, almost 20 years ago, on the radio in front of 15 million people, I would have said that that was kind of far out, but that's the lay of the landscape as you and I are having Well, you're right about the Internet.
	It has certainly, you know, it helps and it hurts.
	It's a two-edged sword.
	But it is at least another conduit, one that we did not have before.
	So it does help, I think, on balance.
	Well, I'm hoping it's going to help because I've spent a lot of time and effort getting some stuff over to Keith Rowland, our able webmaster.
	Well, let us begin there.
	So that everybody has an opportunity to begin heading in that direction.
	What do you have up on the web tonight?
	Well, every time you introduce me, the one thing that you neglect to mention is that I am head of a multidisciplinary investigation.
	A team of people who are literally laboring around the country tonight on various projects designed to move us forward, to bring that frontier a little closer to where ordinary folks who don't have the resources to pursue these studies Well, that's a pretty big mouthful, along with the Angstrom Science Award and the rest of it.
	mouthful along with the Angstrom Science Award and the rest of it.
	But Enterprise, the Enterprise mission absolutely has to be given credit because there's a lot
	of other people who are now helping and assisting.
	And one of them in particular, Susan Caravan, is not here tonight.
	She is where I should be.
	Remember, I was headed for New Mexico tonight when a funny thing happened and I had to create
	this piece which is going to be uploaded to the website in the next hour or two by Keith.
	Okay, so it's not actually there.
	It's not there yet.
	It will be later in the morning.
	Why don't we wait until it's there before we kind of get into the nitty gritty.
	Alright, alright, alright.
	Very good.
	Let's for a second talk about Norad and Cheyenne Mountain.
	In all of my adult life, I have never seen what's going on, what went on yesterday, and to some degree is still going on right now.
	And I'm not clear.
	As a matter of fact, I called our now mutual friend, Sarah McLendon, and asked her, Sarah, what the hell's going on out at NORAD?
	Good for you.
	And she said, I'll send you a story.
	And as a matter of fact, I faxed it to you.
	It was in raw form at that point.
	Okay.
	And nobody is still sure why there was an alert.
	Why there was a lockdown.
	Why ID was suddenly required.
	I mean, they really got into a serious condition and they may still be in one there.
	And I, you know, just a little talk show me.
	I'm thinking Cheyenne Mountain was supposed to withstand, correctly if I'm wrong, a direct nuclear hit of some proportion.
	Pretty close, yeah.
	Pretty close, yeah.
	So, an A-10 smashing into it.
	Or a 500-pound bomb going off over it.
	Or even some guy's big old truck bomb exploding in front of it.
	Wouldn't even notice.
	Wouldn't even notice.
	So, to go into lockdown condition and to explain it as a concern about domestic terrorism just doesn't get it with me.
	Well, there is a lot of skepticism.
	We have our sources at the networks, including CNN.
	You know, we were talking to them yesterday and talking to them today, and they don't buy the story, but one of the problems that the press has is they're so loathe to venture an opinion or to question authority without a press release.
	It's like we have become a media by press release.
	Unless an official says something, no correspondent will stand up and say, there's something weird going on and no one's telling us the truth.
	In other words, this just doesn't add up logically.
	It does not add up.
	It came up yesterday during one of the press conferences that kind of eerily remind me of the, you know, of Tableau we used to have here in Long Island after TWA 800.
	Yes.
	Where there'd be, you know, officials and spokespersons and authoritative, you know, experts all standing up in front of the press saying absolutely nothing.
	We know the snow is deep in Colorado.
	We know there's no radar west of the mountains.
	We know it's hard to get into places.
	But you would think after 12, however many days now, 14, 15 days, that the most sophisticated remote sensing instrumentation in the world, on the planet, for which we have spent hundreds of billions of dollars, could find an aircraft even if there's a bit of snow on top of it.
	Particularly if it went off in a fireball, Which, according to the General today at the press conference, triggered the satellite sensors in Earth orbit, something like 500-600 miles up, with a marvelous IR signature.
	May I ask a question here?
	Anything.
	Only single level, I think.
	If, just for the sake of conversation, you were going to steal an A-10, and you wished to divert attention for a while, Um, what would stop you from dropping one of your 500-pound bombs?
	Would that create an IR signature of the sort they saw?
	Uh, and then the plane, of course, would fly on to some other place.
	I'm not saying that has occurred.
	I'm just asking if that would be technically feasible.
	Yeah, of course it would be.
	The problem is that a bomb itself would not create the kind of sustained infrared signature that would indicate an aircraft crash.
	Okay.
	It would be more like a blip.
	Unless it, you know, set fire to a forest or something.
	What I would actually do, you know, and of course we're violently speculating here, is have a bunch of good old boys have a fuel dump and basically just set it on fire.
	Time to coincide with my landing on a road.
	Not an airfield, just a road.
	With a tanker truck waiting conveniently.
	I mean, this thing is supposed to be able to get in and out of non-existent airfields, and they're looking at airfields!
	You know, the lack of imagination by these guys in looking for this is mind-boggling, but then, of course, you have to understand that this is a charade.
	The fact that we are being treated to daily press conferences, the fact that all these assets are being set in motion, the fact that the SR-71 is flying, and the U-2s are flying out of San Francisco, Mountain View, which is south of San Francisco, Uh, is some indication of the seriousness, probably up through the Pentagon and maybe even beyond, with which this little incident is being treated.
	And I just have the feeling that what we're seeing at the press conferences out there is really a diversion for a much more concentrated effort.
	And in fact, maybe the NORAD alert was designed to get radar linked around the world to see if there was any unusual movement of anything That should not be moving from point A to point B. Boy, I wonder what they're worried about.
	Richard, hold on.
	We're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back to you.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	I know you've been waiting for this one.
	It should be a fascinating night, so buckle in and get ready.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	727-129-4117 I've got Richard C. Hoagland online.
	He'll be back in a moment.
	1295. First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Well, good morning everybody. I've got Richard C. Hoagland on the line. He'll be back in a moment. It's going to be a
	fascinating, absolutely fascinating night.
	We do know, thanks to Ken at KARN Radio in Little Rock, Arkansas, the very latest on Cheyenne Mountain.
	Interesting.
	Let me read this to you.
	Tighter security remains in force at a key air defense site today.
	Commanders at the North American Aerospace Defense Command say the threat Targeted the agency Cheyenne Mountain Complex in Colorado.
	But since the tougher security took effect, officials have begun to backpedal a bit.
	They now say the information about the threat came third-hand, and one commander says it appears the source of the information wasn't that credible.
	Still, though, the extra security measures remain in effect for now.
	It's the Associated Press.
	Richard, you know, I don't buy any of this.
	Well, given what we are going to talk about as the evening progresses, particularly these STS-80 footage which we've now gotten our hands on, and the fact that something pretty interesting showed up on a couple of satellite images which you posted on your website yesterday and I had Keith put on ours tonight, I would think that, you know, Something is up, and normally when something interesting is going on, they would like to keep us in the dark for as long as possible, particularly if it's serious.
	And I just have this feeling that something is up.
	There are reports of increased military activity at just about every base that I have an opportunity to talk somebody near.
	Planes, a lot more planes taking off, that sort of thing.
	But I mean, they're trying to have it both ways here.
	In the story, they're saying, uh, the tighter security remains in place, but, ah, you know, it was a third-hand kind of, uh, a warning, and, uh, it wasn't credible, and yet they're keeping the thing locked down.
	Uh, that doesn't make sense.
	Well, if you didn't want someone, you know, you see, they have tours.
	You can actually get on a bus and go to the gate.
	Right.
	And make an appointment and go and see, you know, what we used to have as the Global Command Center for World War III.
	Well, it still is, isn't it?
	And there are huge screens and computer consoles and, you know, guys in blue and women in blue and all that.
	And if they don't want someone to see what's on those screens and what steps are being taken to respond to whatever is on the screens, obviously, you want to keep the tourists out.
	But you can't just say, OK, you can't come in.
	You have to give a plausible reason why you can't come in.
	They haven't done that yet.
	Terrorism has become the plausible reason.
	When in doubt, talk about terrorism and no one will ask any questions.
	I can imagine that under normal circumstances, for example, at the White House, say.
	Alright?
	Or even a federal government building.
	But Cheyenne Mountain, to remain locked down like this, I don't know.
	I'm having a really hard time with this.
	I just can't imagine a terrorist making a big dent in Chinatown.
	Maybe someone in your vast audience.
	We know it's a vast audience, Art.
	I have the numbers.
	We'll call in who is actually connected to whatever's going on, and without revealing any national secrets, might give us some further information.
	Well, I sure would like it.
	If you had to make a guess, first of all, tell us what they do there.
	They are concerned with what?
	Matters in space?
	Strategic launches?
	That kind of thing?
	All of that.
	All of that.
	It used to be the Soviet Union.
	It used to be, you know, an all-out nuclear war.
	Mad.
	Mutual Assured Destruction, a response to a Soviet first strike, etc., etc.
	Now that we are friends with the Russians, and now that We are not mutually targeting, so we are told, missiles on each other's territory.
	Do you believe that, by the way?
	Actually, yes, because my strong suspicion is that an awful lot of the Cold War was more hype than real to begin with, having to do with much more interesting agendas.
	And again, the deeper you get into this morass of who's telling you the truth and when and how much, the more you become very distrustful of anything you are told.
	Anything.
	I didn't used to be that way.
	I am now.
	That's the both of us.
	I used to be very trustful, actually.
	When the FBI, for example, would come to the podium when I was young and say something, it was like gold.
	I mean, it was just true.
	I remember a film they showed us at school with Jimmy Stewart, the FBI at work or something.
	And they actually took us out of class to go down and sit in the auditorium and watch this film.
	And I thought it was the most amazing thing.
	You know, the FBI is your friend because it gets you out of class to go see what they're doing?
	Anyway, what NORAD does now is it monitors the world for theater alerts, for the country problem.
	Let's say Saddam Hussein got his hands on a rocket, a long-range rocket.
	He was with Gerald Bull, who actually I knew at one time.
	On the verge of having a capability, using a very ancient technology called a gun.
	Alright?
	Oh, that was that gigantic, massive... That gigantic cannon.
	Yep.
	If he oriented that gun in a certain azimuth in the desert against a hill, he would have been able to lob on a ballistic trajectory a primitive nuclear device from Iraq to New York.
	Well, I just happen to be sitting tonight.
	So, those kinds of threats, you know, the ants country problem are basically what NORAD is looking at now.
	Plus, there is the, well, what they used to call the bad general problem.
	You know, when you have an empire collapse the way the former Soviet Union has, and you have a lot of hungry, desperate people who have not been paid in many, many years, some of them, including the military.
	There is an unavoidable suspicion that some of those people on the fringe might want to pawn a nuclear weapon or two to make some rubles, you know, just to buy bread to eat.
	Sure, sure.
	You know, people have this annoying habit they need to eat.
	So, the problem then, of course, is that whoever has the money, and for many years it was rumored that Gaddafi was, you know, offering to anyone Fabulous amounts of money for someone who could provide him with a workable nuclear device.
	You would have a real problem if a delivery system also should materialize in someone's hands.
	So NORAD spends a lot of time looking at that.
	It also spends time looking at space.
	It is looked literally at impacts around the world.
	We now know that there are lots of little, you know, Miniature comets, little bits of flotsam and jetsam coming out of space and impacting, some of them with the energy equivalent of several kilotons of explosives, several thousand tons of TNT, high in the stratosphere, mostly over the oceans, because that's where, you know, most of the surface area of the Earth happens to reside.
	There is concern, of course, that one might confuse, in a moment of crisis, Some of these natural impacts, which are the equivalent of, as I said, high-energy explosions with theater-scale nuclear weapons, so NORAD is monitoring, and during the recent spate of asteroid scenarios.
	Remember the week or two weeks we were inundated?
	Oh, yes.
	With every possible scenario for the destruction of civilization by comet or asteroid strike?
	I do.
	All simultaneously?
	Indeed.
	That, by the way, might bear some discussion later on.
	Anyway, in that, it came out that, uh, you know, the networks, the, uh, not the networks, you know, commercial media, but the military surveillance reconnaissance networks have been picking up, for years, impact that generated explosions in the atmosphere from objects falling out of space at, you know, several miles per second.
	We get hit by a lot of little things.
	Fortunately, it is little.
	Otherwise, we'd all be in trouble.
	Anyway, so they look at all that, and then there's the satellite launches from You know, China and from the former Soviet Union and from Japan and from ESA, which is the European Space Agency.
	And I'm sure there's a lot of other stuff that we're not supposed to be aware of.
	And then, of course, now I'm going to get labeled a kook again by our friends up north.
	There's the real activity in space, namely folks who are here flitting around upstairs who are not answerable to the president and whoever knows what.
	And whose signatures and images you can see on this stunning, literally stunning, piece of videotape that we received from sources a few days ago and have been sharing with other members, research members of the Enterprise mission, some of whom are busily doing analyses tonight, hint, hint, so that by the time I do your show next time, I can provide you with an annotated version of the tape And analyses by members of the aerospace community whose credentials are long, and trusted, and venerable, and unimpeachable.
	And so when they say these are spaceships flitting around, and they're not ours, and they don't know whose they are, someone, and someone's highly placed, will have reason to believe them.
	Well, alright.
	So all of that is backdrop for the fact that tonight we're sitting here not knowing quite why, Our central, you know, geopolitical monitoring system, headquartered in Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado, is on alert.
	Okay.
	Now, it's got to be speculation, because that's all we can do.
	But if we assume that it's not the Russians, up to no good, and it's not some third world country ready to launch something nasty at us, and we don't buy the explanation of domestic terrorism, then what else can you imagine Would cause such a hubbub?
	Well, the night of March 10th through March 13th, which was the beginning of a remarkable set of events that we described when I was on your show on the 19th.
	Yes.
	Including Bill Clinton having problems with his knees, including the old Navy business, which we'll get to.
	You keep laughing about that.
	I do, because I fielded so many of the responses that came in after that.
	So did we.
	Hundreds and hundreds of responses.
	And they ranged, by the way, from split down the middle, about 50-50, I would say.
	People who said, yes, you know, I called that number, and I got a backdoor by hitting the asterisk or pound sign or whatever, and I got a message.
	Uh, to people who went into the store and were apparently taken seriously.
	And then I would say there was another half, uh, who when they approached the, you know, the store owner, um, got a response like, Oh no, here comes another one or something to that effect.
	And, um, uh, so it was a great mixed response, but I was shocked Because frankly, you couldn't see me.
	When you came out with this old Navy Store business, I was sitting here shaking my head going, oh, Richard, what are we doing?
	What are we doing?
	And yet, it came back mixed.
	And so there I was shaking my head at the responses going, what the hell?
	What is going on?
	Yeah.
	Well, the way you bury a signal is to mix it in with noise.
	A signal is only a signal if you recognize it is a signal.
	If you're communicating in code, that's why codes exist, Art.
	During World War II, in an effort to foil the Japanese, the U.S.
	government, the Army, hired Navajo code talkers.
	Right.
	And because Navajo is not exactly a household language in Japan, our codes, unlike the Japanese code, And unlike the Enigma code of the Germans, remained unbroken throughout the war.
	By the way, Richard, we are now on KTNN.
	It's a radio station in Window Rock, Arizona.
	50,000 watts on 660, right in the middle of the Navajo capital.
	And just east of the Barringer Crater.
	So, you're talking to a lot of Navajo folk right now when you say that.
	Okay.
	Well, a code is only valuable if the people who are not privy to it don't get it.
	And those who are privy to it can understand it and use it.
	Sure.
	So, I was not surprised that the faxes and the phone calls and other messages coming in We're mixed, because I expected that if you were going to bury a secret organization designed to do something interesting under the cover of a regular, normal, everyday clothing outlet, there would be some stores, maybe even most stores, that would be doing exactly that.
	They'd be selling clothes.
	But there'd be some that would be doing that plus something else.
	And what I found really remarkably intriguing was that most of the reports I got back Were that the people, the stores approached by folks who let us know did not know anything about the sale.
	There were no shirts marked down from 1950, 19.5 to 1650, right?
	Yes.
	First thing, no sale of Scott's plaid shirts, all right?
	Plaid shirts.
	Yes.
	Number two, the store personnel were outfitted with the most interesting high-tech communications True.
	They were wearing headsets.
	Yep.
	Now, what's interesting is that one report that came in a few hours ago, literally, of someone who went back a couple of times, said that the personnel in this one store were all female.
	There was no one in the store, and yet they were all communicating with each other over these headsets.
	I mean, this is pretty weird.
	Now, we had one of our, let's see, how should I say this?
	Fraternity.
	How's that?
	We'll coin our own fraternity here.
	That'll work.
	Who surveyed one of the major outlets in the Northeast, Old Navy Store outlets, and reported that in front of this particular outlet, which was in a major U.S.
	city, on a major thoroughfare, at 10 o'clock at night, a set of communications trucks Lowering something like a mile of one inch fiber optic cable were deployed precisely in front of the old Navy store.
	Now, you know, American cities have a lot of stuff under them.
	If you were to excavate in 10,000 years, you know, bring an archaeologist from Alpha Centauri and go through American cities, you'd find that they are about as deep as they are high.
	Particularly cities like Boston, New York and Baltimore and Philadelphia and whatever.
	There's a lot of stuff under the city, right?
	Sure.
	Water mains and electrical supply lines and subways and whatever.
	Normally, the conduits for cabling, when you're outfitting, you know, a section of a city with new cabling, you go down 10, 20, maybe 30 feet and then you go horizontally.
	And you have to have a facility, a device to pull the cable along horizontally because it's very heavy and the friction will take over and You can't just lower the cable into a hole, alright?
	You gotta have a device that moves it laterally under the streets.
	Alright.
	In this case, this observer, who is pretty conversant with these technologies, observed that the cable on huge drums was being positioned on a crane, so it would fall vertically down through the hole in the street.
	Huh.
	And that meant that it was a free fall.
	Not 20, 30, 40 feet, but the length of each of these huge drums.
	I mean, as big as a two-story building.
	Sounds like Mel's home.
	Exactly.
	It sounded like a very deep lowering of high-density, high-bandwidth, modern, ultra-modern, resistant communications technology.
	That's weird.
	Right in front of an old Navy store.
	Now, he also, this individual, was able to secure video using some techniques, image enhancement techniques, of the upper floors of this store.
	The entire block was this store, including several floors above the lighted outlet where the clothes were being sold.
	And behind the shades, behind the slanted shades of the upper floors can be discerned on this enhanced video
	some very peculiar communications antennae, which are recognizable because you can't cheat the laws of physics.
	You know, coax and waveguides and things like that are kind of recognizable.
	So what in the world is an Old Navy store being used as a headquarters for some kind of very ultra-modern
	communications gear, which requires, among other things, the vertical emplacement
	of about a mile of high bandwidth fiber optic cable vertically down a hole in front of the store?
	Well, I don't have that answer, Richard, nor do I actually know what the Old Navy stores, according to you, were even up to.
	Now, a third piece of data, before we get off the subject.
	Oh, I don't intend to get off it at all.
	I want to know from you what it's all about.
	I don't know what it's all about.
	What I'm trying to do is to gather information.
	One of the third pieces of information that I want to communicate.
	Well, you're going to have to hold that until the top of the hour here.
	Can you do that?
	All right.
	And then we'll try and find out what this is all about, the Old Navy stores.
	That was one of the strangest events on this program in all of its history.
	The Old Navy stories.
	Well, I could tell you stories about people who went in.
	Absolutely incredible.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	It's going to be a very, very interesting evening.
	So strap in, stay put, and it'll just keep coming.
	You know it will with Richard.
	This is CBC.
	Do you suffer from revolving dead cells?
	Call Art Bell toll free.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's what it is.
	Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell.
	1-800-618-8255. East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033. 1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's what it is. Good morning everybody, I'm Art Bell. My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	And we are going to talk of many things this evening.
	The, uh, lockdown at NORAD, Europa, which Richard has finally been given proper credit for, and many, many more things.
	So, as I said, uh, prior to the hour, buckle down.
	Lots of interesting stuff and a couple of big announcements coming up next.
	First, though, The Bay Gin Free Play Radio.
	And start your collection of after dark newsletters.
	Call toll free 1-800-917-4278.
	Call right now.
	Alright, this is something that I've done about four times a year
	and I'm going to begin doing it again now to keep you informed on how the program, this program, is
	going.
	I spoke earlier in the day with Mike Elder who is the operations manager of WLS Radio in Chicago
	which by the way originally stood for world's largest store.
	Did you know that?
	The mighty WLS 890 in Chicago.
	And Mike was overjoyed, as was I, when I heard that our numbers, survey numbers, in Chicago In one book, in this last book, have, for all categories of 12 years old plus, have doubled.
	We have actually doubled the survey numbers in Chicago.
	So I want to thank everybody in Chicago and in the surrounding areas.
	Actually, when you're talking about WLS, you're talking about 38 states or something, so they're heard all over the place.
	But in Metro Chicago, our numbers doubled in one survey.
	The larger markets, as the surveys come out, are reported first.
	And so now I want to turn my attention to Andy Ludlam at KABC, who I communicated with earlier in the day, and the numbers for Los Angeles are in, and they are absolutely staggering.
	In my time period, from midnight to 4 in Los Angeles, We have pulled a 13.9 share.
	Now, in a city the size of Los Angeles, that is absolutely beyond belief.
	And 13.9, as a share for all categories of 12+, rates among the highest ratings ever achieved by any radio station in Los Angeles.
	So I have a lot of people to thank, and this morning they would obviously be The people of Chicago, the people of Los Angeles, who obviously are listening in gigantic numbers.
	As a matter of fact, in Los Angeles, this 13.9 rating is over, roughly, no, it's over twice the share of the next closest competitor.
	In other words, we have twice the listeners of the next closest competitor.
	And as you know, there are many, many, many radio stations in Los Angeles.
	So it is a great honor.
	And I want to thank everybody there.
	And I am going to... Mike... Rather, Andy Ludlam suggested that I would frame the survey.
	And that's probably exactly what I'm going to do.
	I'm going to put it in a nice frame somewhere.
	It's one of the best ever received.
	So, having said that, in a moment... No, not a moment.
	Right now, let's go back to Manhattan and Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard?
	You can take a moment if you want.
	That's an excellent rating.
	That's really amazing.
	Yeah, I'm pretty proud.
	I was looking down here.
	KCBS is way down on the list.
	My old alma mater out there.
	I don't want to talk about what's happening to others so much, although there is... Well, you know what it is, Art.
	This is going to sound weird.
	It's not you.
	It's the guests you have on.
	It's the subject matter you deal with.
	It's the fact that you allow people Sometimes a little too much to come to their own conclusion.
	I mean you mix madly your metaphors and some nights you will have total dingbats on.
	You're right.
	And the next night you'll have someone who is deadly serious and will you never tell your audience even with a wink which is which.
	It's intentional.
	You really let them make their own decision and that's what time was crucifying you for but that's also why the numbers are what they are because you Unlike certain other radio talk show hosts that I have dealt with over the years, you understand where your audience is going, and you're not scrambling to get out front of them.
	You, in fact, are leading this audience by providing the kind of content people want to think about.
	Well, I treat them as adults, Richard.
	I presume that my audience can sit there, and I actually try to help my guests tell their story, and the audience can make up their own mind with regard to the credibility of what's being said.
	And it's not exactly rocket science.
	It's very simple.
	And you're right.
	I will go from the absolute ridiculous of a Mel's Hole or Chevrolet's falling down into the middle of Long Beach to something very serious.
	And I will do that one night after another, after another, after another.
	I'll vary it around.
	While the rest of talk radio seems absolutely convinced The only formula to success is to march straight behind Rush Limbaugh and talk about politics for hours on end.
	I simply decided there's more to life than that.
	And it's not complicated.
	That's what I'm doing.
	Well, it's showing up, obviously, in the numbers.
	And that's why you have the numbers.
	Which allows us, you know, when we come on, to basically lay out where we are in this investigation.
	I want to get back to this Old Navy thing, because I know every time I mention it, you smile.
	I do.
	In fact, I even sometimes chuckle just because of the reactions.
	The Old Navy stores.
	Could you give us just a little hint, Richard, what you suspected about the Old Navy stores that led you to do what you did?
	OK.
	All right.
	I mean, it's not rocket science.
	It's very simple.
	We started out looking at data.
	All right.
	Data indicating that This government was not telling us the total truth.
	These are the extraterrestrial artifacts, habitation, personages, entities, beings, members of the dysfunctional family, whatever you want to call them, alright?
	And for many years, for over a decade and a half now, we've been pursuing what I hope is a reasonable scientific study involving a lot of other people in looking at artifacts, first on Mars, on the Moon, And, you know, recently some work we did even before I could say that I was occupied with this full time, that is the Europa, you know, insights, have now borne rather interesting and remarkable fruit.
	So we're expanding our search through the solar system and about 20 years ago we were ahead of the pack and probably, I can say with some justification, we may be 20 years ahead of them still.
	Which is very depressing because we don't have 20 years for everybody to catch up.
	There's a lot of practical things that this knowledge and this investigation should be turned to.
	Well, as part of this investigation, part of discovering that NASA has found evidence of structures on other planets, and because of the Brookings Report, because of this official study that they themselves commissioned back 19, you know, I'm sorry, 37 years ago, that they haven't gotten around to leveling with the American people and telling us the truth, we began to strongly suspect that in addition to the science, we had to open a political wing to the investigation.
	We had to deal with this as if, in fact, somebody was deliberately not telling us the truth.
	And so we've had our feelers out and we've had sources and we have cultivated, you know, inside people and we've had a lot of people now at NASA who are basically affronted by this contradiction to the Charter as we are, provide us with data and leads and sources.
	We've had people in the aerospace community who have labored, you know, at no cost to do analyses, to try to corroborate what we have found.
	We've had independent researchers, some of whom I'm going to be mentioning by name and their work in the next few weeks, both on our website.
	At Enterprise Mission, as well as on your show, if you would like to hear about it, who have duplicated and verified and extended our work in terms of the artifacts.
	And as we have pursued this science, it has become more and more apparent that there is a parallel, hidden political agenda by some to keep the rest of us in the dark regarding these related subjects.
	And so, I became very interested in who's behind the plot, who's behind the conspiracy.
	Oh my God, I've said it, the C word, the dreaded C word.
	You know, why do we have the RICO statute?
	Because the federal government in its infinite wisdom foresaw several years ago that you needed a racketeering statute to basically confront a conspiracy where a whole bunch of people get together and don't tell the outside crowd what's going on and do things that are not good for the society.
	Well, we have found that there is a group of people who seem to be trans-governmental, trans-agency, trans-national.
	They seem to owe allegiance to no one nation, but an ideology, a philosophy, which for want of a better term, can be termed a secret society.
	Secret cabal.
	Cabal makes it It almost sounds too formal, alright?
	This is... And people tend to put labels on things and it's so easy to haul up your latest hate group and say, okay, they're responsible.
	In fact, it's not that simple.
	There's an awful lot of gamesmanship.
	There's an awful lot of deception.
	There's an awful lot of, you know, leading with your left when you're doing something over on the right.
	But somebody, for whatever reason, has made a concerted effort to keep us from knowing that the human race has a much more extraordinary history than most of the textbooks talk about.
	And as the space program developed, they made darn sure that the data that came back to Earth first was filtered through key eyes and hands.
	And what the American people and the political people and the So-called people in responsible positions at NASA and others got was sanitized information.
	Because it's now very obvious that 99.9% of the space agency doesn't know what's out there.
	All right.
	Well, and Richard, are you saying that this group, whoever they are, whatever they are, need a means to communicate and coordinate?
	And was it then your suspicion that this group of clothing stores somehow was A front four or involved in this coordination and communication.
	Is that what it comes down to?
	That's what it comes down to.
	I use the comparison with the old man from Uncle TV series, where you would enter the little dry cleaning store and you'd pull the third coat hanger from the left and you'd go down in the secret elevator and there you were with the troll and Mr. whatever his name was.
	I forget.
	Probably his solo's boss, right?
	It is turning out from reports we got in from all over the country and reports you got that we tripped over and we uncovered the tip of an iceberg here that is frankly much richer than I would have imagined because it turned out there were honest Old Navy stores that didn't have a darn idea what the heck anybody was talking about.
	Right.
	And then there were The other time.
	Who probably would have liked to have strangled Richard Hoagland if they could have found him.
	Well, but it's my intention to let them know we know because what's happening now tonight with NORAD on alert, with aircraft disappearing, with bizarre goings-on overhead, with shuttle video that was deliberately leaked to us from Houston by somebody.
	Again, honest folks who want us to know That we are not being told what's going on, literally, over our heads, who are preoccupying our time with tragic diversions, like Heaven's Gate.
	And as I'm speaking, you know, one of the spokespersons is on MSNBC, even as I'm talking to you now.
	You know, an absolutely tragic monopolization of the attention of the middle of the curve, the middle of the American electorate, who are getting their Introduction to extraterrestrial phenomenon through the most sickening and distorted prism one can imagine.
	That, in fact, I believe is part of a concerted effort to disinform while important and relevant developments are going on behind the scenes that we are not hearing about because we're much more preoccupied With how Newt Gingrich is going to pay back $300,000.
	Yeah, really, who cares?
	I got a loan from Bob Dole.
	You know, on the Heaven's Gate business, my complaint that I've been voicing very loudly for a long time, was if you read their suicide note, which the media has not bothered to show, they won't show it in fact, at least the first half of it, the very first sentence says, Whether or not Comet Hale-Bopp has a companion is irrelevant.
	And further down, it says the marker for what we're going to do or something, I'm paraphrasing now, is the comet itself.
	Well, for some reason, the media decided that it was not going to listen to that, Richard, and they wanted to talk about UFOs because that was the hook Well, you can look at this two ways.
	wanted the UFO angle and so God helped anybody who would get in their way with actual evidence
	to the contrary.
	And they grabbed that UFO thing and they ran with it.
	And I suspect that's what you're talking about.
	Well you can look at this two ways.
	You can say that the mainstream media, alright, are innately quite conservative.
	Their job, as some friends of mine on television used to say, is not to investigate, it is
	to coronate.
	You know, television, most television exists not to break new ground, but to basically celebrate familiar ground.
	Right.
	And the whole UFO phenomenology, extraterrestrial life, if it doesn't come from NASA, is definitely Beyond the edge of the paper for most editors and reporters and the like.
	Having said that, you know, one can look at the coverage of the Heaven's Gate tragedy in one of two ways.
	A lot of basically preoccupied reporters and editors who see this for what they think it is, who ask no questions, and who basically take the handouts of the officials and the authorities who are on the case, And who have basically promulgated the standard perception, which is that you had a well-meaning but totally deluded group of individuals who, one afternoon, packed their bags, got all dressed up, and committed suicide because they thought they were going to be beamed aboard a spacecraft hiding behind a bomb.
	That's the standard part of the line.
	But behind that inertia of normal news conservatism, There is the possibility that there have been some reporters, some editors, some media outlets that have been carefully egging that story forward, have been putting that spin on it for political purposes.
	Because for most people who do not spend the amount of time that your audience spends thinking about unusual and definitely different subjects, their first reawakening And reacquaintance with the UFO phenomenon, the extraterrestrial phenomenology, was through a group of people who had tragically committed an extraordinary act and who had caused great pain and suffering to family and loved ones and friends and all of that.
	And it has generally turned off a lot of people who may have been beginning to see things around them, bits and pieces, on shows like sightings.
	Sure.
	Strange Universe and other outlets that raise questions that demand honest, thoughtful answers.
	And what happens?
	The Heaven's Gate tragedy suddenly takes that curiosity and turns it off.
	I mean, the idea that people would commit suicide willingly over a several day period and live among their colleagues and friends and family While they are literally decomposing before their eyes is so horrifying.
	If one were to write a script for the calculated horror of confrontation with anything hinting of the abnormal or the different or the strange or the questions that need to be raised, one cannot Imagine a more difficult or appropriate scenario to turn Curiosity off at the source.
	And maybe, just maybe, that's what was intended by this tragedy.
	The reason I'm saying that is because I have grave suspicions that these people did not commit suicide.
	Oh my God.
	Alright, well that's yet another twist.
	Hold on, we'll come back and pick up on that point.
	Did not commit suicide?
	Well... And yet another can of worms is opened in the early morning.
	Good morning, everybody.
	I'm Art Bell and from the high desert this is CBZ.
	oh That's 702-727-1295.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, and we are at a critical moment, which he interjected just before the break.
	We'll get back to it in a moment.
	The Heaven's Gate suicides not suicides?
	Hmm.
	We'll be right back on that one, believe me.
	Commodities 69.
	Tell them Art Bell told you to call.
	That's 1-800-406-0469.
	All right, here we go.
	Back to Richard Hoagland in Manhattan.
	Richard, an immediate pickup from where we left off.
	You said that the Heaven's Gate suicides may not have been suicides.
	On all, we've lost Richard Hoagland.
	Now how did that happen?
	I was assured that was impossible, that we could lose Richard Hoagland, but we have done that, so I'm going to have to get back in touch with him.
	Oh my, so it goes.
	So I'm going to take another quick break of, break or necessity we'll call it here, and get Richard back on the telephone again.
	So stay right where you are to lose with those symptoms.
	So call 1-800-249-6060.
	Again, 1-800-249-6060.
	1-800-249-6060. Again, 1-800-249-6060. Well, every time you say something a little sensitive,
	we get cut off.
	Alright, now look, right back to it, we have to go right back to it.
	You said the suicides may not have been suicide.
	What do you mean?
	Well, I mean, let me start with the obvious.
	Has anybody asked the question?
	Normally, when you find 39 dead people, the first question that the police are supposed to ask is, did these people voluntarily walk off the plank, or did they have assistance?
	Of course.
	And if they did, you know, how deeply do you probe to find out if in fact they were murdered so it would look like suicide?
	Now the problem with the investigation as I've been watching it from this coast is that because these people were kooks, because they believed something that was so outrageous compared to the norms of San Diego or Rancho Santa Fe.
	Sure.
	Because it was so out of bounds, Immediately, the normal procedure to be curious and skeptical and ask hard questions, be it detectives or whatever, seemed to go by the board.
	And we heard something from the coroner, who seemed, frankly, more excited to be on television than he seemed to be interested in solving a problem.
	And nowhere did we hear one leading question about how we know for certain these people actually committed suicide, Despite the blatant and repeated contradictions to what we thought we saw on television.
	And I could go, I've actually done the entire program going through the contradictions.
	That's what I do for a living these days, is look at contradiction between what we are told and what the facts really are.
	Well, touch on a few.
	I'm extremely disturbed that no one is asking any questions.
	For example, everyone had a bag packed.
	Right.
	And if you look at the literature on the website, if you delved into these people through Brad Steiger's book, for instance, you ever read on the show?
	Uh, I did.
	When, when, uh, you know, Doe was Bo and he was people.
	Right, right.
	You know, these people had a consistent philosophical position and some considered perspective in exactly how They were going to transcend their fellow human relationships.
	And it had to do with a physical, I repeat, a physical transition, a la a spacecraft.
	All right?
	And nothing in their literature, nothing in the 20 years that I've been able to find, nothing in the dialogues or reportage or personal statements and recollections of the various former members, like Dick Jocelyn, who was on Larry King a couple of times.
	Right.
	Contradict that.
	Everyone to a person who was a former member has expressed surprise that these people committed suicide.
	And no one has picked up on it.
	No one in authority has said, Hey, wait a minute.
	Maybe there's a problem here.
	You know, because they're kooks, because we've written them off as less, not more than human, less than human, because they have a different belief system.
	And, you know, I'm working from the advantage of having a source who called me early on as this thing was unfolding, and who frankly told me that they had been approached twenty-some years ago by Doe, who was calling himself, oh, at that time, Applegate, And the reason this individual did not get involved is because these two people, Bo and Peep, were government agents.
	Really?
	Now, if I can get that information... Now, I mean, obviously, people call me because we're doing what we're doing.
	How much assurance do you give to that information?
	Because this is someone that I know extremely well and have worked with on a source basis for a long time, And they have been found to be extraordinarily reliable in areas that are pretty much at the edge of the paper.
	I give it a great deal of credence, Art.
	But what disturbs me is that officials are not thinking the obvious.
	It is so easy to look at that video and see these excited people who had dressed up, who had made their uniforms, who had made Little hyper-dimensional tetrahedral patches.
	Did you notice them?
	The equilateral triangle?
	Yes.
	The metaphor?
	Heaven's gate?
	The purple shrouds.
	You know, well, the purple shrouds are... You know, I'm not... I'm talking about when these people were alive and sitting there on television in that common room, alright?
	Yes.
	And they're all discussing this transition.
	Now, most people looking at that video, because these are kooks, of course, I think that that's a euphemism for we're all going to go and commit suicide.
	Not understanding that these people really did believe they were going to make a transition.
	They were leaving this planet.
	Now, if I had shown any of these people the video that I'm going to provide to you from shuttle mission number 80 last December, which we will actually go in a studio and put out as a video so that anybody with a VCR can see this, Courtesy of your friendly local neighborhood space agency.
	We're going to put it on the website with proper annotations and, you know, arrows and circles and the appropriate analysis.
	What does it show?
	If anybody had shown this video to these people, they would have had zero doubt, Art, as you will when you see it.
	That if they were told that a spaceship was going to land in the backyard by the pool at 9.30 in the morning, it would be there.
	No question.
	Because this video is that good.
	What is in the video?
	Objects photographed from the shuttle that are pursuing flight dynamics in Earth orbit that are absolutely violating every law Newton ever wrote.
	What about the NASA explanation of ice crystals and all that stuff?
	If you show me how an ice crystal can suddenly decide to stop in mid-flight, reverse direction, and move off in another direction, With no obvious thruster firings and no outside forces perturbing it, among other things.
	Alright?
	And go back and forth in and out of the airglow layer at the horizon a couple of times.
	And move off at, you know, station keep with the shuttle, then move off at 5 miles per second and not get dimmer.
	Alright?
	I will entertain that explanation.
	In fact, if I had shown this video that we have, that we're having analyzed exhaustively, Uh, to any of the Heaven's Gate group.
	There would have been no doubt in their mind they were looking at spacecraft, and if I told them one was going to land at 9.30 in the morning, they'd be there, dressed with their bags packed.
	Now let me just put out a possible scenario.
	And again, I'm not attached to any of this.
	I'm simply being, if I can use this term, a devil's advocate here, okay?
	Well, they will attach you, so be careful what you say.
	I don't care!
	The truth is stronger than... I do understand.
	I understand what you're saying, so go right ahead.
	All their bags were packed.
	Okay.
	They were getting ready for a journey.
	Why do you pack your bag if you're going to be leaving your vehicle?
	Why would you possibly need anything of this earthly plane if you were going to a better place with a technology which certainly could do a lot more than, you know, current 20th century terrestrial technology can do, up to and including clothing, right?
	Well, that is a reasonable question, however, When normal people die and they're buried, they're generally put in their finest suits and all the rest of it, sometimes buried with the materialistic articles that they, for some reason or another, want to be buried with.
	So there could be that.
	Well, there could be, and that's what's interesting.
	There's such ambiguity, because if, in fact, they were being told that they were going to be picked up, and they had a celebratory meal together, as apparently they did, It is trivial if someone wanted to set this group up to make a blatant, political, manipulative, horrifying spectacle.
	To basically slip a Mickey in their food.
	And then, they could be killed in stages.
	Alright?
	All it would take would be a couple of handlers.
	No one bothered them.
	They were there in that house.
	You know, no one came to call.
	They had no visitors.
	And, you know, Faxes, not faxes, but videos were sent out to this last surviving member who just happened to decide to leave a month before.
	So he'd be the one in the group to go back.
	Do you know that he went in with a video camera and put cologne on his shirt to photograph his friends decomposing?
	No, I did not know that.
	I do know, Richard, I do know that the leader Apparently has been arrested on some non-related charges.
	No, no, no, not the leader.
	Not the leader, I'm sorry, not the leader, but the surviving member.
	No, no, it's not him.
	It's not, who is it?
	It is his employer.
	His employer?
	Yeah, his employer in the video company in Beverly Hills.
	I see.
	It is not the former member of the cult.
	He is involved in a legal controversy over who owns the website.
	Heaven's Gate?
	Company.
	Heaven's, not Heaven's Gate, the other one, Higher Source, which was the web development company side of the operation.
	In fact, this group, which was very nomadic in their 20 years, you know, begged for food and begged for clothes and whatever, suddenly became extremely well financed at the end.
	And when you actually looked at their balance sheet, you know, at the website design... Well, they had sold something they had constructed in Texas or somewhere... New Mexico, I forget.
	It was New Mexico.
	New Mexico.
	Alright.
	Well, they suddenly moved to San Diego, to one of the wealthiest communities on Earth.
	Yes.
	Right, right.
	Where their event, their passing, their whatever, would cause the greatest impact.
	I mean, if this group of people, Had done what everyone thinks they did in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico, it would have been a 30-second read on Dan Rather.
	Think so?
	There would never have been the kind of press, but the fact that it took place in a posh suburb of San Diego... Did you know, Richard, that in America 30,800 people in the last year measured committed suicide?
	To have this in perspective, 30,800 committed suicide.
	It would have been a 30 second blip.
	The fact that it was done in the middle of one of the wealthiest communities among neighbors who were shocked and horrified and where those things are not supposed to happen.
	Sure.
	And again, if one is being suspicious, one would say that that was by design.
	Someone's design.
	In fact, when this individual called me and said that the reason that they did not participate 20 years ago In this program is because they have absolute proof that these two individuals were government agents.
	I got very interested because you see, you don't have to believe they were government agents to believe that they had an agenda.
	A lot of people think that the government is doing things that I am rapidly coming to believe are not done by government at all.
	That brings us back to secret societies, organizations, that have the technology, the funding, the global resources, the long-term agenda, to be as efficient as government is thought to be, but in fact is never, alright, that efficient, and yet, um, really has no interface with the normal day-to-day occurrences of government as you and I understand the term.
	I just think there are lots of questions here that have never been, never even been addressed, let alone answered.
	For instance, did the coroner look for needle tracks?
	It would be so simple to inject these people after they were comatose with a deadly dose of what was found in the toxicology reports in their blood.
	And because they're kooks, because they're less than human, no one's asking questions.
	We don't really want to know.
	We just want to get rid of them out of sight, out of mind, unless we're, you know, the media that are using them to hype ratings and to Draw out this agony and these terrible family stories of people who can't understand why their loved ones did something so strange and so baffling and so unreal.
	This is just another example of how we don't get answers from our media.
	We simply get extended hype and the prevarication of a particular spin.
	And in this case, I think we should be asking much harder questions because the political effect of what transpired was to turn off an awful lot of people just as you had really provocative events occurring in the real world of extraterrestrial phenomena such as the events over Phoenix which occurred just a few nights earlier.
	So you suspect it was murder?
	I suspect it was a setup.
	One of the reasons I suspect it was a setup is because When I first heard about it, because of the pattern we've discerned in some of our work vis-a-vis the secret societies, I looked at the latitudes.
	I tend to do that these days.
	I know.
	And I said, oh my gosh, because it looked as if the depths occurred at 33 degrees.
	Well, some colleagues have provided me now with Site survey maps from the city of San Diego of Rancho Santa Fe.
	And Art, that house that they rented fits precisely at 33 degrees north of latitude.
	Which means what?
	Well, 33 degrees is a key number in secret society tradition.
	You know, in the Masonic tradition, I am not indicting Masons.
	I want to be absolutely clear.
	And by the way, nor are you indicting Old Navy stores.
	No, of course not.
	I do want to clear that up because it makes it sound as though the Old Navy stores are leading some giant conspiracy and we don't know that to be the fact at all.
	Of course not.
	What I'm saying is there is a group, an institution, Which is trans-institutional, meaning that it has members in interesting places, both government and non-government, corporate and non-corporate, private, whatever.
	And in concert, these individuals are pursuing an agenda that is very fixated on extraterrestrial phenomenology, very fixated on our true ancient history, vis-à-vis Egypt.
	Alright, alright, then let me ask you this.
	Would this be fair to say?
	That things were getting too hot.
	That people were beginning to get too close to possibly the truth.
	And somebody somewhere, I'm trying to think as you're thinking now, wanted to shut it down.
	And I think you're saying that they used the Heaven Gate suicides, we'll put that in quotes now, as a means to shut that down.
	Is that what you're saying?
	It's a possible hypothesis.
	I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm saying that we should be asking harder questions, because look at the political boomerang effect.
	There was a very, a scathing piece written by a reporter for the Washington Post, who before this was going to write a favorable story on serious extraterrestrial investigations, a la, you know, John Mack and others, and he wrote a scathing Ironic, you know, bitingly satirical report on four deluded people who don't know the difference between comets and stars and stuff like that.
	In other words, it has made the subject cannon fodder once again.
	We've been taken almost back to the 1950s in terms of some people's perceptions.
	And you believe on purpose.
	Richard, hold tight.
	We're at the top of the hour.
	Rest.
	We will be back.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland.
	This is CBC.
	Hi, this is Joe Garrett.
	That's who we are.
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	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	That's who we are.
	Good morning, my guest from Manhattan is Richard C. Oatland.
	And if you've missed the first two hours, he is suggesting the possibility the Heaven's
	Gate suicides were not suicides.
	We'll get back to him in a moment.
	Six, four, three, eight.
	Absolutely fresh flowers.
	Now, back to Richard C. Hoagland.
	Richard, welcome back.
	You know, you really are right about one thing, and that is that I'm not aware of investigation details that would indicate that there was anything but a suicide.
	In other words, there were very few details released.
	They seem to conclude quickly and positively and completely that it was a suicide.
	And I'll give it back in one second, but I want to read the suicide note that came from HeavensGate.com.
	And I want to discuss this with you a little bit.
	It reads as follows, I quote, Whether Hale-Bopp has a companion or not is irrelevant from our perspective.
	However, its arrival is joyously very significant to us at Heaven's Gate.
	The joy is that our older member in the evolutionary level above human, the Kingdom of Heaven, has made it clear to us that Hale-Bopp's approach is the marker we've been waiting for.
	The time for the arrival of the spacecraft from the level above human to take us home to their world in the literal heavens.
	Our 22 years of classroom here on planet Earth is finally coming to conclusion.
	Graduation from the human evolutionary level.
	We are happily prepared to leave this world and go with T's crew.
	If you study the material on this website, you will hopefully understand our joy and what our purpose here on Earth has been.
	You may even find your boarding pass to leave with us during this brief window.
	Obviously inviting other suicides.
	We are so very thankful of this opportunity to prepare for membership in their
	kingdom and to experience their boundless caring and nurturing." That is the note that was left on
	their website.
	Now, let me ask a question.
	Yeah, sure.
	Where does it mention suicide?
	Nowhere.
	Exactly. You make the assumption.
	It talks about graduation from human...
	You and everyone else who's dealt with this story is making an assumption,
	Because you don't think they're real spaceships.
	Well, I don't think they thought of it as suicide.
	But, see, you're trying to put yourself in their mindset.
	No, no, no.
	As opposed to reading the language.
	Oh, I see.
	Well, yeah, you're right.
	I'm reading the language.
	Don't metaphorsize.
	Simply read the language.
	Okay, the language indicates that they are going to transcend human physical presence.
	Well, most people can't get on a spaceship tonight.
	All right?
	I can buy a ticket for a 747 and go to London, but because the generals have the car keys to our own, you know, rather remarkable vehicles, I can't get access to them.
	I know they exist.
	I've seen the video.
	I know that physics exists, but I can't get to them.
	So if I were to discuss leaving the Earth and you didn't know because of my background and what I've been doing and the investigation and all that we've discovered, You could obviously think that I was off my rocker, that I was planning to do something tragic or preemptory or whatever, when in fact I'm discussing with you a mundane reality that to me is as boring as getting on a 747.
	Well, yeah, but the larger picture here is important.
	If you're suggesting that this alleged suicide was a murder and that this was done Well, when you say crush, no, I mean, that's too final.
	I'm right 39 murders was done to crush crush any further investigation into
	Ufology into what's present now?
	You're and we're about to talk about that you believe on and or around
	our planet Well when you say crush no, I mean that's too final. I
	think as in all psychological wars there is an ebb and flow and
	There is a great fear on the part of some That events are getting out of hand
	Too much flow, not enough ebb.
	That's right.
	So how do you turn the tide?
	How do you turn people off?
	Let me tell you something I know of, Richard.
	There is a 50 year anniversary going on at Roswell.
	Right now.
	Stan Friedman and a lot of other people I know, friends, are down there for this 50th anniversary of Roswell.
	Isn't that a little early?
	Well, it was July, wasn't it?
	Anyway, it's beginning.
	So, that's not my point.
	Bear with me and I'll connect the dots for you.
	Okay.
	That event was to be sponsored by some very major U.S.
	companies.
	After the Heaven's Gate There was, as I said, supposed to be a favorable major piece in the Washington Post, in motion before Heaven's Gate.
	there was one major effect that just occurred.
	There was, as I said, supposed to be a favorable major piece in the Washington Post.
	In motion before Heaven's Gate.
	Afterwards, the piece, or pieces, I think there were two of them,
	turned into a very different reportage than was portrayed before.
	Okay, Richard, look, if you look at this bill...
	I'm just raising the possibility.
	I'm not saying I know this happened.
	I'm just saying that I'm intrigued that no one has asked any questions because these people obviously are kooks.
	Well, being no reasonable sane person in 20th century America can really believe there are spacecraft zipping around that would take you anywhere.
	Yeah, we're about to get to that.
	But, Richard, when you read this note, Every major media, the major networks, ABC, how they were out here at my house, all of them, I'm not even going to bother ticking them off, the big ones, covered this note.
	But you know what, Richard?
	In every single case, they ignored the first half of the note, which would lead you away from believing that they believed there was some sort of spaceship behind Hale-Bopp, and that it had been planned for 22 years, and only showed the second half of the note, And laid it on the whole UFO thing.
	So, I mean, there was a carefully orchestrated campaign to lay this on ufology, and UFOs in general, and they grabbed onto that, like, with a hundred pounds of pressure, and they weren't going to let go.
	No matter the facts, they weren't going to let go.
	They wanted to blame this on ufology.
	Well, what I thought interesting about the timepiece, the piece in Time Magazine, is that obviously it dealt with Courtney Brown, it dealt with your show, it dealt with the discussion of the so-called companion, and then out of the blue, it rang us into it.
	And that to me was really interesting because it was obviously a Carefully calculated political act to create guilt by association.
	When I raise the specter that these people were murdered, it's because you have a very broad and inquiring and expanding audience, Hark.
	Yes.
	And it is quite possible, not at all beyond our own possibility, that one of the targets of this Was you and the show.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I don't... Because you had put so much on the ground in terms of the discussion around what was or what not hiding behind the comet.
	In terms of that on the website, you could interpret that in a somewhat different way.
	If I know there are spacecraft, alright, and they're not from here, and it's not a theory, it's not a rumor, I know that because I know there's 747s, right?
	It doesn't matter whether there's one behind that cloud or one sitting at LaGuardia or whatever.
	Right.
	There will be one along when I am told it will be there.
	So, I would interpret from their perspective, and I'm again taking them at their word from 20 years of documentation which my source has provided me some interesting perspectives on.
	They really believed, developing over this two decade period, that there would come a time when physically, you know, those in this class would be physically removed.
	Yeah, but where was it written that they had to extinguish physical lives?
	That doesn't... It wasn't!
	That's my point, Art.
	That's the contradiction.
	When you pack your bags and are waiting for the ship to land, you're not committing suicide.
	And this is a contradiction.
	Everybody, in looking at this, has assumed, because they all know spaceships don't exist, that they had to be talking about suicide.
	Your point is well taken.
	Your point is well taken.
	Um, let's move on, if we can now.
	Leave this alone, and for a second, talk about this new video.
	And I would presume, maybe I shouldn't, that the new material is now up on the website.
	No, no, no, no.
	That's not the video we're going to talk about tonight.
	The video is on the process of analysis.
	This came to my attention into our hands a couple of days ago.
	What is it?
	It is official footage from the space shuttle mission of Columbia in Earth orbit in December of 1996.
	The mission where the astronauts were supposed to take several spacewalks and go outside and basically build Uh, mock space station furniture.
	Duplicating some of the tasks that will be undertaken during the construction and assembly of the space station components later in the next couple of years.
	Just prove they could do the work.
	Well, you know, you have temperature, you have time and motion studies, you know, you have a lot of... Right.
	Building something in orbit, we're not really ready to build a big thing in orbit.
	Alright, it was STS-1?
	STS-80.
	STS stands for space.
	Transportation System.
	That's NASA's technical name for the shuttle.
	Mission number 80.
	All right.
	As the previous mission was STS-48.
	Well, STS-80 went up in December and spent something like 12 days, and along about the third or fourth day when they tried to go outside, remember, they couldn't get the hatch open?
	I recall.
	Well, it now turns out, in looking at this video, which we have You know, examine maybe 50-60 times now.
	I've been making copies and sending them out so I've had a lot of chance to look at it.
	I can well imagine why NASA didn't want to let their guys go out and play.
	Because the activity going on outside that spacecraft by things that are behaving in a stunningly non-Newtonian fashion.
	I mean, it's one thing when you see motion pictures of Inside the shuttle to see astronauts tossing things back and forth.
	Right.
	And remember Newton's first three laws.
	First law, body in motion tends to remain in motion or at rest unless acted upon by an external force.
	Right?
	Right.
	Meaning if I sail a film can across the cabin of the shuttle or the Apollo capsule, it will go until it hits the wall.
	Right.
	Right?
	It won't stop in mid-air and decide, oh, I'm going to go this way.
	Unless it meets an equal and opposing force.
	Exactly.
	No.
	And now, if it's a rocket, and it has its own propulsion system, obviously, it can maneuver, station keep, and all that, but you see a visible effect of rockets.
	When you look at this video, when you get to see it, you are going to be mind-boggled.
	There are a series of linking objects at various rates that change their blink rates as they move back and forth across the field of view.
	The camera zooms in on some of them and then zooms back.
	They maneuver into frame at relatively high speed.
	They then decelerate in the frame and hang motionless behind the shuttle at some indeterminate distance while the shuttle is moving in Earth orbit at 5 miles every second.
	A phenomenon we call station keeping.
	Then, the same object decides it's bored with doing this and it literally stops dead in space.
	And the way you can tell this is that suddenly it's sharing the motion of the clouds behind the shuttle and it's moving off into the distance as the clouds 200 miles beneath are moving off toward the horizon.
	Well, stopping is truly impossible.
	Absolutely.
	Then it changes direction and drifts off the Earth again back into space
	as a kind of a twirling do-si-do around a series of other objects that have appeared,
	you know, both from the Earth and from up in space.
	And all the while the astronaut or whoever is controlling the camera
	is trying to keep these things in the field of view and zooming in
	and trying to get close-ups and zooming back.
	Richard, I've got a couple of questions.
	The original mission where we saw these anomalous objects, was that STS-48?
	That was 48.
	September 1991.
	Everybody, almost, who listens to my show will recall that.
	Those are the ones where NASA said we had ice crystals.
	That's right.
	Although extensive analyses by myself, Dr. Mark Carlotto, and Dr. Jack Kasher, Independently.
	Kasher in particular, because he had the computer program to really do an extremely thorough detail analysis, have unequivocally demonstrated to any physicist who really wants to look that what you see in that shuttle video footage that was downlinked by satellite live that night in September 1991 is not ice crystals.
	Jim Oberg notwithstanding.
	Right.
	I can't wait to see what Jim Oberg's response is going to be To the analysis we're going to put forth on this one.
	Alright, well that was then, this is now.
	So this is a new item.
	I wanted to be sure the audience understood we were talking about something new.
	It's a brand new item, brand new mission, 1996.
	And the behavior of the objects is probably two or three orders of magnitude more bizarre.
	Wow.
	And more blatant.
	And more non-Newtonian.
	And decidedly non-ice crystals.
	I mean, if these are ice crystals, they're the most damnedest intelligent ice crystals I've ever seen.
	Alright.
	Well, it's not only believed, but we know that there's a 50-second delay.
	Right, so... You operate on what, a 7-second delay?
	Yes, I do.
	Okay, well, NASA has put in a 50-second delay so that when you see the Super on CNN or C-SPAN live NASA video, It ain't live, folks.
	It's almost a minute old by the time you get to see it.
	All right, so I have several questions.
	All of this anomalous video from STS-80 that you're talking about, how did it get out?
	It's obvious.
	Nobody wanted us to see it.
	Somebody wanted us to see it.
	It's obvious now there's a war going on inside.
	A war between they keep it under a lid as desperately as long as possible, And the other side, which is the hangout crowd.
	The folks that, for whatever reason, want to come clean.
	They want things to be revealed.
	They want us to come up to speed.
	But there's a lot more in heaven and earth than is dreamed of in your philosophy, Horatio.
	And, apparently, those folks won one the other night, back in December, when they downlinked this thing on Satellite Live, and it was recorded like the other was recorded by people around the country.
	And they have provided us this video.
	Now, we are looking through official sources.
	Richard, who took this video?
	Was this taken from inside the shuttle through a window, or was it taken, well, I guess it had to have been, or was it taken by an external camera?
	No, actually, it appears to be an external camera in the payload bay, and those cameras were typically, are typically, under control of Houston by remote control.
	So there is a flight controller sitting at a console, Uh, those, you know, probably with a little joystick kind of thing.
	Yeah, those horrible blue looking things.
	They replaced mission control with those, you know, very bizarre looking blue consoles.
	Yes.
	And if there's someone sitting there with a keypad and a bunch of buttons and a couple of monitors who can switch between the payload bay cameras and the astronauts are busily doing whatever they're doing and they're not looking outside.
	So basically there's one guy on the ground, probably a gal sometimes, who's in charge of Downlinking and recording all this video.
	Well, whoever was in charge wanted us, those not inside, to see this video and arrange to have it broadcast over the teaser satellite live.
	All right.
	Well, I haven't seen the video, so I would ask you.
	You've already talked about it.
	I will make a copy.
	I will get it to you.
	I will FedEx it to you.
	But, I mean, are you suggesting here on the air that this STS-80 video unambiguously That's a strong word.
	Have you ever heard me use that before?
	No, I just used it.
	Let me tell you why I'm using that term.
	You didn't yet.
	Are you now using that term?
	I am now using it.
	I'll tell you why.
	I have had, in the last 48 hours, what I consider to be some expert experts reviewing this video.
	I've sent it to them.
	They are veterans of the aerospace community.
	Yes.
	They literally worked hand-in-glove with people like Buzz Aldrin, Neil Armstrong, and the other astronauts.
	High caliber.
	They have worked literally shoulder-to-shoulder with all three space efforts of this nation, the manned efforts, Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo.
	Break coming up.
	These engineers designed these rendezvous and docking procedures.
	They know flight dynamics.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	We'll be right back to Richard Hoagland.
	My, my.
	This is CBC.
	I'm Art Bell.
	breathe and sleep it, in reviewing this video, their statement is, it's mind-boggling.
	Alright, hold it right there, we'll be right back to Richard Hoagland.
	My, my, this is CBC, I'm Art Bell, stay right there.
	Are you comfortable enough with the world?
	5, 5, 7, 4, 6, 2, 7, now back to Richard C. Hoagland.
	And, Richard, you're saying that there are objects out there flying about the shuttle, scooting about in our atmosphere, and I presume out.
	Would you say that... Now, for some reason, we have lost Richard again.
	Before I even went to ask the question, I just noticed the line is once again dead.
	Now, I'm beginning to get a little curious about this because I have a system here that locks in lines so that they cannot hang up.
	So I have no idea, I must tell you, I have absolutely no idea how this can happen.
	None whatsoever.
	I'm going to get Richard back on the line.
	Take another quick break here.
	Sorry, folks.
	And get Richard back on the line.
	But I am beginning to be a little irritated and concerned and suspicious about the loss of our connection.
	This is very bizarre stuff.
	So, stand by.
	We'll be right back.
	All right.
	Richard, are you there?
	I'm here.
	I'll tell you something, Richard.
	We have a system here that locks the line in, and it's literally impossible for it to be hung up on.
	So we are losing the connection, and this is the second time around now, and it's beginning to bother me in more ways than one.
	But I'll leave that alone, and let us just proceed, and I guess not let that bother us.
	You've made a very important statement.
	You're saying things are flying around out there, Outside the atmosphere, near the shuttle, and you're saying these things are what?
	Let's just be clear.
	Do you think these things are our things?
	Or do you think that it's likely these are UFOs?
	Well, I mean, let me start with what I can see in the video and what my colleagues are willing to attest to and the reason I'm not mentioning them by name is I don't want to put you guys under a lot of pressure, but I want them to do their work in quiet and peace.
	And in a few days, when they've given the analysis, we'll put it on the web.
	We'll provide it to you.
	You can interview them.
	You can talk to them.
	They'll stand behind their work.
	I mean, we're not keeping any secrets here.
	I just want them to have peace and quiet because it's really important that this be done right the first time.
	This is a major breakthrough.
	I agree.
	It's an order of magnitude or more beyond what we had with STS-48.
	And let me start with what we can absolutely say in terms of the video.
	Alright.
	This is not ice crystals, it's not debris, it's not rockets, it's not meteors, it's nothing conventional, nothing trivial.
	What we're looking at is obviously intelligently controlled systems, vehicles, whatever, that move across the field of view, hang motionless, Station keep with the shuttle for a while.
	Yeah.
	Then decide to move in another direction and rendezvous with each other and twinkle.
	And there's one portion where, and this is really amazing, I didn't notice it until I looked at the tape a couple, three or four times.
	When you have a chunk of ice in space or debris, it normally is not just sitting there.
	It's moving in a certain direction.
	It continues to move.
	Absolutely.
	Out of sight.
	All right.
	Yes.
	And it's usually tumbling.
	Because of the forces that kicked it off.
	Let's say it's a chunk of urine from a urine dump.
	It's frozen in space.
	When it releases from the shuttle, there are torques.
	It's tumbling end over end.
	And if it's far enough away and you can't see the chunk of ice, what you'll see is it reflecting sunlight.
	Blink.
	We're not dealing with tumbling urine.
	Well, my point is that objects in space Not under intelligent or self-control.
	Move in straight lines, and they tumble, and they blink at a constant rate.
	In one part of this video, the camera operator, who was presumably in Houston, is really intrigued with this thing which flew into the field of view, station-kept for a while, then left at 5 miles per second without getting dimmer.
	That's one really neat trick.
	How is a little tiny ice particle smaller than your fingernail, Get obviously 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 miles away from the shuttle and stay the same brightness.
	There's a little thing called the 1 over r squared law, the inverse square law.
	If I am shining by reflected sunlight and I start out at a certain distance from you and then I move back to twice that distance, the laws of physics say that I will apparently become one quarter as bright.
	I will be dimmed by a factor of four.
	Two squared divided into one.
	Of course.
	Right?
	Yes.
	Three times farther away, I'm one-ninth as bright.
	Five times, one-twenty-fifth as bright, and so on.
	When these objects move away, they maintain constant brightness, even though it's demonstrable, because they're moving with the ground speed of the clouds below the shuttle, that they're getting five miles further away each second.
	So we're seeing several laws of physics just casually, rather frivolously, violated by what these things are doing.
	And the most interesting and the most hilarious, and that's why I'm really smiling about this, is when the camera operator on the ground, through the Teeter satellite remote control, sends up the signals to frantically zoom in on one set of objects kind of cavorting at the edge of the atmosphere, above the airglow.
	You can see before he starts the zoom That this object is blinking at a certain rate.
	You can time it.
	Blink.
	Right.
	Blink.
	Right.
	As he zooms in, the blink rate suddenly goes... Blink.
	Blink.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And when he zooms back out, it goes back to... Blink.
	Blink.
	Blink.
	In other words, whoever it was, was waving.
	Through the lights.
	Now, there's no way that an ice particle can know, A, that you're zooming in on it and change its blink rate, change its tumbling rate.
	The fact that whoever is in this vehicle can change the lighting means that it knows it is being photographed.
	And it's semaphoring back.
	Now, if I show this tape to the Heaven's Gate folks, there would be no doubt that they'd be packing their bags to get on these things.
	If they were told that's what they were to expect.
	All right.
	What do you estimate or imagine these objects to be, Richard?
	Well, they're obviously spacecraft.
	The big question, if you asked it correctly, is are they ours or someone else's?
	And my rigorous answer is, I don't know.
	Dot, dot, dot.
	Yes.
	I strongly suspect that some of them are ours.
	The reason I suspect this is because, A, we know there's a physics that makes this possible.
	I had a fax earlier tonight asking me if the events taking place over Phoenix, the so-called UFOs that appeared over Phoenix, which, by the way, look remarkably like these things.
	And there were seven of them.
	And they were in a cometary arc.
	And according to some information, they hung over the horizon at 19.5 degrees.
	God, is that a familiar number?
	Yes.
	Their motive power is, yes, hyper-dimensional.
	That's the physics of moving through space without rockets.
	All right?
	That's... We're all on the same page.
	Now, we know from tracking the papers and the studies and whatever, that 30, 40 years ago, our guys were looking into this physics in terms of technology.
	It went underground.
	It went black.
	It went secret.
	And I would not be at all surprised, in fact, I really believe it's probably Derrigare, That after 30 or 40 years under wraps, this technology is now mature, and some of what we're seeing cavorting around is our stuff, our guys, our hyper-dimensional spacecraft, as I said.
	Some of, but not necessarily all of.
	Well, the reason I use the qualifier is because the blink rates are different, the behavior seems to be different, and some of them appear to be being used for target practice.
	Things are being exchanged.
	There are high-velocity things moving from one vehicle or one blinking light to another, which is kind of interesting.
	In fact, it's this kind of interesting stuff that if I were Houston and the guy said, well, you're ready to go outside, Houston, I would have said, over my dead body?
	Are you going outside?
	Have something happened with the door?
	Well, my recollection is when they got back down on the ground they found a screw or something that was lodged in the mechanism that wouldn't allow them to open the door.
	Really?
	I'm just repeating what they said.
	No, exactly, you're repeating what they said.
	Yeah.
	Were you there to see the screw?
	Absolutely not.
	Do you know if anybody actually saw a screw?
	Hell no.
	Do you know of any engineering group that went and did a failure analysis?
	On the actual hardware as opposed to simulations, which by the way, NASA, the honest side of NASA during this incident, went around the clock trying to duplicate the failure.
	And couldn't.
	And they couldn't.
	Anyway, this is why I am extraordinarily skeptical.
	So you think they were ordered not to go out?
	Absolutely, if they had to come up with a cover story.
	And when I present I want this video to appropriate people in the media who I know quite well.
	When will that occur, by the way?
	When we're ready.
	I want this analysis done by people whose integrity and expertise is impeccable, because they're the folks that got us to and from the moon.
	Okay, this is very important, though.
	Guess for me, at a timeline.
	We're talking days.
	Days?
	Okay.
	Well, we're on a fast track here.
	Remember, DEFCON 4 is in operation tonight.
	When did you get... Can you tell us where you got this video?
	No.
	Not yet.
	All right.
	All right.
	What I'm trying to do is to get additional copies from other sources.
	No single point failure.
	And it is so interesting that I really want corroboration with other sources.
	But there's a little doubt in my mind that it is absolutely for real because it's got all the right prerequisites.
	It's got... There's no way it could be faked a la the Roswell.
	All right, we're not going to get to this yet, but before the top of the hour, I want to mention this.
	There is on Richard Hoagland's webpage, which you can reach through mine or go to his directly, it doesn't matter, something that we are about to discuss.
	So you should go up there and begin to take a look right now.
	Go to www.artbell.com and go to Richard Hoagland's webpage and go to the top item, which says, A Key to the Mystery of Comet Origins.
	and begin to take a look at that because we're going to start talking about that after the top of the hour.
	Just wanted to get that out so they can begin to go up there and take a look, Richard.
	I'm just killing myself to prepare it for tonight.
	I know, and so it is there now, everybody. You can take a look.
	Richard, as you know, I want to know if this is tied in, and I guess you're the only person I know to ask, really.
	I've authored a book, you know about it, it's called The Quickening.
	I heard something about it.
	And Richard... I've authored a book.
	It's called The Monuments of Mars.
	Exactly.
	It does... Fourth edition.
	Okay.
	We even have an 800 number.
	We'll get to it.
	So it's rumored.
	We'll get it on.
	It documents a lot of crap that's going wrong on Earth right now, socially, in the economy, with the weather, with Earth changes, with every single aspect of human endeavor.
	It documents things going south at a fast rate and an ever-increasing rate.
	And I've got a feeling that what this human race is headed toward, in what I call the quickening, It ties in, in some way, with what's beginning to go on at a faster and faster rate that you've been talking about tonight.
	It all ties in somehow.
	Now, I'm just a talk show host and I documented what's going on, I think quite well in that book, but I would like to know if you think it ties in to this headlong race.
	We're headed toward an event, Richard, of some sort.
	Well, you'll have to allow the short answer.
	And for me, that's something.
	I know you all enough to ask for the short answer.
	Yes, unequivocally.
	Look, I've been talking about a changing physics.
	We have proposed, based on this 15 years of trying to figure this out, that we are all immersed.
	Reality is modulated by a background physics which is variable.
	I'll give you one very critical example.
	I have had a researcher in the field for the last couple of weeks trying to get to the bottom of a very interesting mystery, which is why 20-some years ago when we established the atomic clock in Boulder at the National Bureau of Standards, why in the last 24 years have we had to add 20 leap seconds to the atomic clock to keep it in synchronization With the rotation of the Earth.
	And the answer is?
	Something's changing.
	And when you try to get a serious straight answer from the physicists and the geologists and the geophysicists, nobody involved with this will give you a straight answer.
	And it is mind-boggling to imagine that the Earth has slowed down by 20 seconds.
	in the last 24 years, given that measured rates of slowdown or de-spinning of the Earth are usually measured in milliseconds over thousands of years.
	On the other hand, it is equally insane to believe that these incredibly precise atomic clocks, which now are the basis of the GPS system And military aids and the search crews looking for the A-10.
	Right.
	And the positioning and guidance of the ICBMs and, you know, boaters and hikers and skiers and, I mean, our entire infrastructure depends on constant atomic time to within seconds in thousands of years.
	It's insane to believe that those clocks are all going crazy and have to be readjusted every year.
	We're going to add in the leap second on June 30th of this year, a few weeks from now.
	So what's the answer?
	The answer is the physics is changing and none of the folks in the know have the guts to simply level with all the rest of us because this changing physics in their mind presages, if I can use a bell-ism, some event.
	Now actually Art, it's not an event, it's a series of events.
	That may well be.
	It is a... If you would draw this on graph paper... I'm not a prophet.
	I don't know.
	I don't come to conclusions about what it's going to be.
	I don't know, Richard.
	The physics is changing.
	I keep terming it a rise in the physics.
	Why do I call it a rise?
	Because for one thing, things are happening at a faster and faster pace.
	That's a fact.
	That's the quickening you talk about.
	You bet.
	For another thing, things are becoming more polarized.
	The good are getting better.
	And the bad are getting worse.
	You have huge, mass conflagrations.
	You have inordinate examples of human inhumanity to other humans.
	I'm thinking of Rwanda and things like that.
	Well, we could go on forever.
	Politics has become irrelevant.
	You mentioned it yourself.
	Who the hell cares how you keep your cases fine?
	What's going on in Washington is completely irrelevant.
	That's right.
	And only CNN and C-SPAN seem to care anymore.
	The American people are light years beyond it.
	They don't give a damn where, you know, what's-his-name borrowed his money from.
	Yeah, you're exactly right.
	He's not going to pay it back anyway.
	Some of the things are going to happen.
	So, who cares?
	It's interesting that they put off the payback until after 2005.
	That's another whole show, alright?
	Where what they think is going to happen and when.
	All right.
	Did you notice a few months ago that we were absolutely on both sides deadlocked over getting a balanced budget?
	Yes.
	And it had to be in seven years?
	Yes.
	How many times did seven years go up?
	Seven years, seven years, seven years.
	Well, seven is tetrahedral and 2002 is the magic date.
	All right, Richard.
	Somebody thinks something's going to happen.
	OK, hold tight.
	We'll pick this up after the top of the hour.
	All right.
	Let me quickly mention, and then we will hear from Richard after the top of the hour about his book.
	I do have a book.
	It's called The Quickening, and the first edition is nearly sold out.
	If you order now, you will get an autographed first edition copy.
	Within the next few days, it's going to be sold out.
	I've never seen, I guess my publisher said it, he's never seen anything like it in his whole life.
	So if you want an autographed copy of The Quickening, call 1 800-864-7991.
	That's 1-800-864-7991.
	Right now.
	1-800-864-7991 That's 1-800-864-7991
	Right now. We'll be right back.
	Thanks for watching.
	Good morning.
	West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-8255.
	East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	This is the CBC Radio Network.
	It is. Good morning.
	My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, Engstrom Science Award winner,
	one-time advisor to NASA and Walter Cronkite, and much more.
	That'll have to do.
	If you're 0522-8863, the Sea Crane Company.
	Now, back to Richard C. Holtland, and Richard, I want to give you an opportunity before we proceed.
	You, indeed, have your own book.
	In fact, you have How many publications do you have, Richard?
	I've lost track.
	We have been publishing on this for the last 15 years and it includes, you know, the books and the monographs and the various videos at NASA and the UN and Ohio State and Other places.
	And we've assembled them all in our own website, Ship Stores.
	Sure.
	Which can be reached now through your website.
	If people go to the top of your website, they'll see a little blurb regarding Enterprise and myself tonight.
	Just click on it.
	Click on that and it takes you directly to the good stuff.
	Yep.
	From which you can go back to our homepage and start reading this interesting stuff on Alebop that we're going to talk about in the next few minutes.
	Right.
	The way we support this investigation is via this material.
	We are not supported by government grants.
	We do have some private donors who are providing us some very important assistance in doing several research projects, computer time for instance, to analyze leaked videos of spacecraft zipping around the shuttle.
	Sure.
	It's not cheap.
	And to produce high quality video product from that to provide the information To defray this and to keep this investigation going in the face of some significant political opposition, and we won't mention that any further, but it's obvious that somebody doesn't want people to know this stuff, requires an independent source of funds.
	Well, the simplest and most direct way of doing that is to basically let people pay the freight.
	If you think this is valuable, you know, buy a book.
	Buy a video, make a gift to somebody, and let them in on what's going on.
	If you don't think it's valuable, you won't support it.
	It's that simple.
	Richard, let's try this approach.
	If you're new to Richard Hoagland and all that's being said tonight, and you were to try to recommend a good starting point for somebody to order one of your books or tapes, what would you recommend they order?
	Well, if you want to go historically and chronologically, I would order a 19th Century When did I start?
	1983, which has now gone through four editions.
	We recently revised it just at the end of last year, January, and it's now in its fourth edition.
	It's available through 1-800-864-9000.
	That is a very familiar number.
	Doesn't that have a familiar ring to it?
	1-800-864-7991.
	Probably not.
	Well, that's a nice idea.
	Why don't we say to Werner, you know, think about it.
	Apparently we're in the catalog.
	And I haven't seen the catalog yet, but I understand that they've done a neat job.
	Anyway, if you really want to get a feel for how this all started, and why, you know, a former Cronkite Science Advisor, an Angstrom Medal winner, and all that, got into airy-fairy-scented extraterrestrial ruins, this gives you the blow-by-blow of the play.
	If you don't have a lot of time to read, and as an author you'll make me cry if I hear you don't, but if you don't have a lot of time to read, then I would recommend that if you're brand new to this, you get one of the videos.
	I was invited to NASA Five times over the last several years in the front door.
	I briefed thousands of the rank and file of engineers.
	You'd think they would have gotten wise to us after the first couple of times, but they kept inviting us back.
	Isn't that interesting?
	It is, yes.
	So we put one of these on video, the first major briefing where the head of the Lewis Research Center literally told the assembled audience, which was about a thousand engineers and scientists in the auditorium there in Cleveland, As well as 4,000 around the rest of the center watching on closed-circuit television.
	All of whom, Art, were given an official government ID account number so they could charge their time watching my briefing to their official account.
	Isn't this rather extraordinary?
	That is, yes.
	Very, very extraordinary.
	Anyway, they taped the whole thing.
	And they provided us the tape, and we've made that tape now available, and it's called the NASA Sedonia Briefing.
	That's tape number one.
	Then we went on to the UN through Susan's efforts back in 92.
	That is really an overview, not only of the Mars material, but also of the physics.
	You'll hear me mention 19.5 an awful lot on Art Bell's show.
	That's because it turns out that the ruins at Cydonia on Mars, and on the Moon, have been encoded with a particular recurring, repeating, redundant geometry.
	Was that redundant enough?
	And that geometry is in turn the code key to a new slash very old physics, it turns out.
	A physics which not only allows us to predict the quickening, the rise in physics, the changes in weather, the geology, the, you know, bursts coming from the sun, all those interesting things, but also to basically limb out the motive power To allow spaceships, like we're seeing in this STS-80 video, which is not yet available, but will be, will join the pack pretty soon, to be explained.
	It's getting late.
	Yeah, it is.
	All right.
	So all of that, 1-800-864-7991.
	Then, of course, there are the monographs.
	There's the work on Clementine we've been doing on the Moon, which is analyzing, you know, the Apollo imagery, Lunar Orbiter Imagery, the Clementine data.
	Then there is the paper itself that is getting a lot of press this week that's had Koppel very gently and graciously acknowledged.
	Yes.
	And Terence Dickinson and Arthur Clarke and Bob Jastrow and many others that I wrote almost 20 years ago.
	We have resurrected it from the stacks of star and sky.
	Ah, may she rest in peace.
	We put it together.
	We provide it to you in hard copy.
	I will even sign it if you want.
	All you have to do is call 1-800-864-7991, or log on to our website, EnterpriseMission.com, or Art Bell's website, and you'll see the Enterprise logo at the top.
	Follow the little arrows, and it will take you to ship's stores.
	All right.
	Richard, I want a couple of real quick things, then we'll go on to Hillbob.
	And it is this.
	Last night on the program, I had an array of people.
	One of them was Peter Davenport from the UFO Reporting Center in Seattle.
	I know Peter quite well.
	He had some GOES-9 satellite photographs that appeared to show an anomaly both in infrared and analog.
	These were sensors on the same spacecraft, right?
	Yeah, that's right.
	Two different sensors.
	Actually, five sensors, including radar and some others.
	I'm not... I really don't know, but a total of five sensors that saw this thing.
	Peter talked to the government employee who had received the images.
	He specifically asked him if it was an artifact.
	Could be an artifact.
	You know, some sort of packet drop or something that would create an artifact.
	A glitch.
	That employee Very strongly suggested no, but now I've received this.
	We have received some technical information that explains how an anomaly such as this can appear in both visible and infrared.
	At this point, we believe the likely explanation is a data drop caused by missing header or trailer information in multiple data blocks on a single scan line from the imager instrument.
	Now, earlier when I talked to Peter, he had again spoken to this government employee who was standing by his guns.
	So we have conflicting information, as we usually do, about whether we've really got something here, anomalous, or whether we've got a simple, uh, information drop.
	I don't know which it is, but it sure is interesting.
	But keep in mind, we're at DEFCON 4.
	Well, why is Cheyenne Mountain on alert?
	And why did the alert coincide with the appearance of this anomalous object on synchronous satellite data over the Pacific just off San Francisco?
	I don't know.
	Oh, do you know for certain that we're at DEFCON 4 or is there a lesser security lockdown procedure for Cheyenne?
	I had a fax tonight claiming we were at DEFCON 4.
	We have tried to actually ascertain the level of the alert.
	And our sources at CNN cannot get that information.
	All they're saying is no visitors are being allowed, they've got concrete barriers up, they're not allowing vehicular traffic in.
	In essence, they've got a good excuse to seal the mountain down.
	Now, the only reason you seal a nuclear-hardened facility, because as we said at the top of the show, hours ago, a terrorist threat is not credible against a place like Cheyenne Mountain.
	Yeah.
	Although there are some facilities, Art, that are outside, not protected.
	I find that rather remarkable.
	But the general interviewed said the specific target was Cheyenne Mountain.
	Itself.
	Itself.
	Well, this sounds, again, as I said a while ago, like a good excuse to keep people out because there's something going on on the screens you don't want unwanted eyes to see.
	Now, if there is something hanging in orbit, See, again, if we didn't have this STS-80 video, I would be looking at this very differently, and I would not be discussing this as forthrightly and as candidly as I am able to this morning.
	But we got the goods!
	We have waited all these years for when someone would give us the goods.
	Now, you literally can almost see them waving.
	When you zoom in on something out the shuttle, And it blinks back at you, changes frequency, and it's not by the way, and we've eliminated this as a trivial explanation, when you zoom in and out on a scanning TV system, you can get what's called a Moray Effect.
	It's like a beat frequency phenomenon, because the scan is one rhythmic process taking place, and the tumbling, or the blinking, is another.
	So you put the two together.
	It's the reason, for instance, that wagon wheels on old Westerns would go backward on the stagecoaches?
	Because of the stroboscopic effect between the shutter and the wheel turning?
	Yes.
	You have seen that?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	Well, that's an illusion created by two rhythmic processes occurring at different frequency rates.
	That's not what we're seeing here, because the different blinking maintains a different blinking rate When the zoom stops.
	All right.
	When there's no relative motion of the camera and the phosphor relative to the object out in front.
	Oh, I understand the reasoning.
	Well, I want the audience who's not seeing this to get very clearly in mind that when they see this video, which will be provided through Enterprise shortly in the next, hopefully, you know, couple, three weeks or maybe two weeks at the outside, studio time, we have to book and all that.
	Sure.
	They're going to be boggled.
	And if that is only a precursor... Remember, that was shot back in December.
	Who knows what's going on upstairs?
	Who knows why the shuttle that went up on a 16-day mission a few days ago suddenly came down?
	I mean, we discussed at that time that maybe there were other reasons than broken fuel cells.
	And I still think that it was rather interesting that they came down so quickly, but not as quickly as one would imagine in terms of an emergency.
	They came down within four days when the solar flare that was predicted was going to hit, just before.
	All right, one quick backtrack and then away we go on the comment, because we've got to get to that.
	But I think this is worth reading.
	It's from Sherry in Hollywood, California.
	Dear Art, I think Mr. Hoagland just might be right about the Heaven's Gate event.
	And if so, one might look for the same secret society to be behind the Courtney Brown fake photo.
	It certainly makes More sense to think that Courtney was acting out of fear than out of some strange ethical sense when he refused to reveal the source of the photograph.
	Does that make any sense?
	Well, keeping in mind that I was not involved in the whole companion thing.
	In fact, I tried gently to bring Tom Van Flandern on.
	Right.
	Isn't that a great segue?
	Right.
	Well, it's a good question.
	To basically look at another set of reasons why this comic was extraordinary.
	Having nothing to do with potential spaceships.
	Yeah, I know.
	That notwithstanding, if we're in a war, and I don't use that term literally, I'm using it metaphorically and psychologically.
	A war for the hearts and minds and souls of people.
	Yes.
	About reality.
	What's at stake is reality.
	Sure.
	Alright?
	Then, you know that old, it's all fair in love and war.
	There are casualties in war.
	If one side believes it has absolute truth, and it's absolutely the guardian of that truth, and it will do anything because it's heaven-sent mandate to keep the truth on track, then what are a few casualties here and there along the way?
	In other words, we have ample human experience that when the stakes are high enough, casualties are acknowledged as being Acceptable and inevitable.
	So in other words, you agree it might be some?
	Some.
	Maybe.
	Expendable.
	And again, this is a hypothesis and I'm raising it because there could be people out there in your very vast and quite alert audience that may have information that they themselves don't realize they have because it's almost like unless someone enunciates it and I've been listening and listening and listening And people have come close, but no one has hit it on the head.
	So tonight, as we were discussing this, I said to myself, well, Hoagland, do you want to go out on one more limb?
	That cracking sound you hear behind you.
	And then I said, what the hell?
	I have determined, I said on your show before, I'm going to tell the truth wherever it leads.
	And the only way I can keep confidence with, you know, this constituency, with people who are following what we're finding out, is to tell them what we know just about when we know it.
	Now, there are certain times when we know a little more than I can talk about, and I'm protecting sources like tonight, the analysis of this tape.
	Right.
	But by and large, when I have verifiable, demonstrable evidence, I will go out on a limb.
	And the Old Navy thing was a clear example where we took a leap into the unknown and marvelous things came back.
	Which, by the way, reminds me, I want to close one loop.
	One of the things reported, where some people found, scrawled in the cement, scratched in the cement of the sidewalk, or on the store, or in the form of neon projections, there was a common symbol outside of certain old Navy stores.
	Almost like an identification, this is the place.
	What I need is for people to either fax me, or better yet, take photographs, Of these symbols.
	I'm not going to tell you what the symbol was, because I want independent confirmation, and I don't want to leave the witnesses, alright?
	Right.
	I want you to send the photographs to 122Dodd, to the Enterprise Mission.
	Look up our website.
	Go into Art's website.
	It's 122Dodd, Weehawken, New Jersey, 07087.
	Or fax me at 201-271-1703.
	or fax me at 201-271-1703.
	And as many people who can provide me independent confirmation
	that these symbols in fact identify the interesting Old Navy stores
	from just the run-of-the-mill Old Navy stores, the better.
	Um...
	All right, well, we'll see what happens.
	Now, Comet Hale-Bopp, there has been a great continuing argument about whether we have got a single large That's exactly right.
	of all comets, that's what they call it, that's what Alan Hale called it on this program,
	or whether as Tom Van Flanderen has suggested, several or even many orbiting objects that
	make up what we think is one object.
	Do I have that about right?
	That's exactly right.
	And the reason that we care, I mean if it was just because we want to know whether it's
	one object or a set of objects, I'd be getting a lot of sleep right now, alright?
	Why is it important?
	It is critical.
	It is crucial.
	It is perhaps the single most important astronomical observation that can be made in our solar system.
	All right.
	Because it's the key to our past.
	All right.
	Hold it right there.
	To get Richard's materials, or to get my book, The Quickening, Richard, Uh, has a whole bunch of materials.
	Monuments of Mars would be a good place to start.
	And my book, The Quickening, you can call now 1-800-864-7991.
	That's 1-800-864-7991.
	1-800-864-7991 That's 1-800-864-7991
	Hail Bop just ahead.
	2-800-864-7991 Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	702-727-1295. That's 702-727-1295. First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222. Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Well, a lot of hot information on this show this morning.
	If you would like a copy of this program, it's going to be a five-hour program, no doubt about that.
	You can begin ordering it now at 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	1-800-917-4278 That's 1-800-917-4278
	Richard C. Hoagland back in a moment Why is it a good idea?
	74627 74627.
	That's 1-800-557-4627.
	You've got nothing to lose but the fat.
	All right.
	Now we're going to talk a bit about Hale-Bopp.
	And I think the key question is, again, why it would be important whether a comet like Hale-Bopp or other comets would be made up of one single entity, one dirty snowball burning its way across the cosmos or many orbiting items that appear to be one item.
	Richard, why is it important?
	Okay, as I said before the break, because if it's more than one chunk, more than one iceberg, then via the calculable properties of a discipline called celestial mechanics, which is the art form of calculating orbits of celestial objects, Um, Van Flandern has demonstrated, compellingly, that if it's more than one chunk, that those chunks got together, not in a primordial process, but in a catastrophic former planet that blew up in relatively recent solar system history and changed everything.
	The so-called quickening, the change in physics, the deterioration of The general solar system environment, a lot of other things that are going to happen to this planet that have happened before on a cyclic pattern in terms of what we've been working on.
	All of this can be traced now to Van Flandern's so-called missing planet.
	And the shrapnel from that gargantuan, humongous, incredible, mind-bending explosion, if you can imagine an entire world You know, blazing into incandescence and the pieces, you know, that which is not vaporized, shooting into space in all directions.
	Right.
	Most of them to escape forever from the solar system.
	And a few pieces raining back after millions of years to return as the long period comets that we see.
	You know, I threw a ball into the air, it fell to Earth, I know not where.
	The things that are coming back, the long period comets with millions of years periods, if Tom is right, are the returning fragments of a world that was destroyed.
	What does that mean for us today?
	Well, in concrete terms, two things happen.
	Because this world was shattered, and I say was because the evidence now is pretty compelling that he's right, that Tom is right, Because this world was shattered, the physics of the solar system took a tragic turn.
	They took a left-hand turn.
	We are not living in the appropriate hyperdimensional environment that we should be living in.
	Things have gotten weird.
	I mean, just look at history.
	You really think sane people do this to each other on a developing planet elsewhere than here?
	We now have a possible reason Why life on Earth is basically quite strange.
	And that's a whole other discussion, which I can't get into right now, but we should probably spend some time discussing it some night when we know a little more.
	All right?
	The other important thing is, you have to ask the question, what would cause a planet to blow up?
	Well, we had in the last 30 years a bunch of guys, generals, you know, who basically crafted a policy It's called MAD.
	Mutual Assured Destruction.
	Right.
	Where we threaten a counterpart on the other side of the planet, a people with reasonably high technology and cultural values and history and all the human qualities that we have.
	Sure.
	We threaten them with annihilation!
	As well as the rest of the world, just by casual, you know, side effect.
	They launched a nuclear strike against us.
	Right.
	And it was called the same policy, but it was called MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction.
	Now that's only with H-bombs.
	If those same people, with the same mentality, in the 50s and early 60s, you know, the generals like, and I'm trying to remember, Curtis LeMay, who was a quintessential example of a madman out of control, Wearing a business suit and smoking cigars who appeared on a day-to-day basis to be totally sane, but in fact was totally insane.
	Totally insane.
	Why do you say that?
	Because if you read any of his writings and read what he did and the policies he implemented, he quietly could contemplate the deaths of millions of people just because he wanted to win.
	He, when the Cuban Missile Crisis was, you know, at its height, Well, there was a time, Richard, in our history when we thought, or even imagined, that a nuclear war was winnable.
	Well, not by anybody who really knew.
	Well, it became less and less viable as a theory as time went on.
	Remember, Oppenheimer himself, when he built the damn thing, when he saw it go off, he said, I have become death, the destroyer of worlds.
	Yes, of course.
	The power to destroy a world in the hands of someone like Curtis LeMay.
	And it's, if Tom Van Flandern is pursued to his logical conclusion, then the fact that in the nucleus of Hale-Bopp there is not one object tonight spinning, but apparently several objects orbiting each other, and we'll get to how we have inferred that in a few minutes, that is telling us that A, The comets are in fact the reigning back fragments of this former shattered world.
	I have become Death, the destroyer of worlds.
	And the destruction of that world by the mindset that fueled the Cold War at its height, only with bigger toys and playthings that could destroy whole planets, that has He irrevocably changed solar system history for the worse for the last several million years.
	I would like to argue with you a little bit on your statement of insanity of General LeMay.
	I served under him.
	You know, those were different times.
	I mean, it was his job to consider what would happen or what might happen if we were attacked and how we would respond.
	You know, nuclear war, of course, is in itself insane.
	But I'm not sure General LeMay was actually insane.
	It was his job to consider the unthinkable.
	Well, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and I don't want to get into it, you know, of a shouting match over Curtis LeMay.
	He's gone.
	But during the crisis, when Kennedy was trying every way to keep annihilating all of us, LeMay was pushing the envelope, and he wanted a war with the Russkies.
	He did everything But push the button.
	And that, to me, is evidence of congenital insanity.
	Because Lemay, at that time, this was now in 1962, alright?
	Yes.
	We knew enough.
	We had enough tests.
	Enough islands had been vaporized and blown away.
	Enough of the in crowd had seen what this technology was doing to the hyperdimensional physics.
	And that's another long discussion, alright?
	Remember, it was Curtis Lemay, That told Senator Barry Goldwater to take a long walk off a short pier.
	Oh, I know.
	When Goldwater tried to find out as a civilian authority.
	Actually, he said... As chairman of the committee.
	Yeah, I know.
	He's had said, actually, that things that couldn't even be repeated on the air.
	And I'm not Goldwater saying that, so I know it's true.
	Yes, yes.
	Well, this man had abrogated himself powers that even presidents are only supposed to hold.
	And he felt nothing but contempt For the civilian constitutional authority, because he felt that generals knew how to fight and win wars better than civilians.
	He nevertheless, though, did continue to take orders from civilian authority constitutionally.
	Yeah.
	And we're all alive because he did, aren't we?
	Well, that's right.
	So the system worked.
	My point is that if you look at his policies, if you look at the carpet bombing, if you look at the saturation bombing, the so-called strategic bombing, which he instigated in World War II, Where, for the first time, mass civilians were simply massacred indiscriminately.
	In Dresden, etc.
	Yes.
	Is that sanity, Art?
	No.
	No, Richard.
	War is not sane.
	Alright?
	But that kind of war.
	There used to be a chivalry with war.
	A soldier died, but civilians were protected.
	Curtis LeMay and people like him, you know, changed that whole equation.
	It made it thinkable to consider the unthinkable, which included the mass extinction of millions of people in an all-out nuclear exchange to preserve, you know, remember that phrase, better dead than red?
	Well, of course.
	That came from that kind of thinking.
	What I'm saying, by metaphor, is that if you had equipped those people, of which LeMay was only one, there were a lot of others, alright, with the proper tools, They would have, given half a chance, blown up the planet to save it.
	And it looks like, if Van Flandern's data is now to be, you know, followed, that someone did that millions of years ago.
	This raises such profound questions, given the existence of demonstrable artifacts on other nearby worlds tonight.
	On Mars, and the Moon, and maybe other places.
	Europa.
	No, Europa's... No artifacts on Europa.
	I don't think so.
	Europa has its own unique... Possibly life.
	Yeah, obviously, and we're talking about an ocean, we're talking about millions of years... We're going to get sidetracked here.
	So your point is that on the moon... My point is that given that this solar system has had obviously intelligent activity prior to some incredible line of demarcation. We're on the one side of the line,
	things were going along and then suddenly there's a whole missing planet. Everything goes downhill
	from that point and that's why it's critical to verify if Tom Van Flandern's right. All right,
	Richard, if Van Flandern is correct and there was a planet that blew up, blew to smithereens...
	Was blown up.
	Blown up, alright, blown up.
	Was detonated deliberately.
	Alright, fine, blown up, detonated.
	As a possibility.
	Alright, let's say, for the sake of conversation, that that is an accurate model.
	Is this thing I describe now, loosely called the quickening, is that?
	It's a direct result.
	In other words, are we in the process of repeating that ancient history again, and is the quickening that process?
	It's on a much smaller scale, and again, I'm now talking about this physics we've been working on.
	Yep.
	And what happens, you see, is that when, and this is hard to describe without the diagrams, but if you look at the solar system as a system, which at one point, prior to this catastrophe, Which is of unimaginable consequences and magnitude, was in tune.
	Was a in-tune, harmonious system.
	Remember Kepler's phrase, the harmony of the spheres, the music of the spheres?
	Yes sir.
	This was a poetic metaphor for a physics that related all the solar system objects to each other at a level where each interacted like a piece of well-oiled machinery.
	In its place, in its orbit, with its frequency, doing what it was designed to do.
	Now, you take one of those components out, you blow it up, the rest of the system notices that something's missing.
	It's like any well-crafted piece of machinery.
	You take a gear out, you take, you know, sprockets out, you take the, you know, you detune your carburetor or whatever, And what used to run smoothly runs badly, if at all.
	Or runs downhill, or grinds to a shuddering halt.
	In other words, if you dumb up the machinery, things don't work.
	And removing a major planet in the planetary system, in terms of what we've now reconstructed for this physics, had shattering and overwhelming long-term consequences.
	Not only physical, In terms of the geology of other worlds, in terms of axes, planetary axes, flipping back and forth, searching for an equilibrium that can't be found, but also a profound effect on psychology, on extinctions, on appearance of strange organisms, on the disappearance of other organisms, on aberrations of weather and vagaries of geology,
	All of which rises and falls in a series of short and long term cycles as the system as a whole is desperately trying to reach a new equilibrium which it can never find.
	Richard, where do you think we are in that cycle now?
	Coming up to a nodal point.
	You talk about an event, I talk about a nodal point.
	What's a nodal point?
	It's when the curves peak.
	Yeah.
	When something happens, in mathematics it's called a singularity.
	When all the numbers go to zero, or go to infinity.
	We're coming up on a nodal point, on a singularity.
	And I can make some modest predictions, based again on hyperdimensional physics, as to what might be happening, and some specific predictions, in terms of indicators, that that which we're predicting is in fact occurring, But in terms of the specifics, an awful lot of it has to do with mindset.
	It has to do with how we approach this singularity.
	Whether we succumb to what is now called Millennial Madness, which is another word for fear, or we look with anticipation at the possibilities.
	Because remember, this physics makes things possible that have not been possible for a long time.
	By its very nature, as it rises, we gain more control.
	And that's an unseen aspect, which is not being promulgated.
	In fact, the fear mongers would like to have you believe things are more out of control, when in fact, because the physics is rising, if you decide you're going to see a different outcome, there will be more control to that which you would like to see occur.
	Well, it sounds like you're talking, you're beginning to mix physics with metaphysics.
	Oh my gosh.
	Are you now?
	Yes, of course.
	When I say the background to reality, what do you think I'm talking about?
	That is no small step for Richard Holbrook.
	It is no small physics, of course.
	Why do you think it's so important that we reconnect with what Maxwell and those folks 100 years ago were trying to do?
	They were trying to invent this physics, reinvent it, rediscover it.
	And if something hadn't happened, which I'm beginning to strongly suspect was political, which was a deterrence to keep us from looking in all aspects of this set of possibilities, then we would be a hundred years further down the road to gaining an upper hand in how to use this, how to create appropriate technologies that would utilize it, how to basically understand the changes that are occurring, and view them in a different perspective psychologically
	than fearing change.
	You know, this is why I don't totally agree with your saying that everything is going to hell in
	a handbasket. I see an awful lot of very positive things that are breaking out. For one thing,
	I keep getting faxes from lots of people asking questions who never asked questions before.
	Well, you misinterpret what I say.
	I'm not saying everything's going to hell in a handbasket.
	I'm saying that events of all natures are moving faster.
	You'll discern that if you ever get to read my book.
	Well, if someone were to send me an autographed copy, I might get a chance to read it.
	I will send you an autographed copy.
	But no, events in all categories of life, Richard, are getting faster at truly an exponential rate.
	Now that includes some good things.
	It's not all bad.
	I'm just saying we're moving toward, you call it a note point or whatever, I call it some sort of event.
	It may be spiritual.
	I don't even rule that out.
	I mean, look... Let me give you an example of why I talk about good things.
	If half the stuff on STS-80's tape now is ours, some secret black project, then all we have to do is get the damn car keys.
	Now what is that going to do for us?
	It means that we have developed, with your tax dollars in mind, a functioning hyper-dimensional technology which isn't just used to kill people, which is what the LeMay types would have us believe is the only use for any of this stuff, But it's also free energy.
	It's also a way to feed everybody on the planet.
	It's a way to provide lighting and housing and all the things that people desperately need to live a halfway decent life.
	This technology, this insight, this physics, which we have bought and paid for, and it's flitting around in Earth orbit!
	Alright, again, trying to be fair to Lemay, there's a word called deterrence.
	Deterrence, yes.
	Deterrence.
	And indeed, Reflecting on history, though we got close, it worked.
	I mean, so far it's worked.
	Well, but again, you're taking history as we've been given it through the official channels.
	Are you sure it worked?
	Are you sure the Cold War really existed at all?
	That it wasn't one huge shaggy dog story to keep us all occupied while some really important events of history were quietly going on underground and behind the scenes?
	Well, we've had an opportunity to crush some SS-18s and other things that were clearly... Yeah, lots of neat toys that were never used!
	But they were clearly... they could have been used.
	Are you sure?
	Are you sure?
	No, you're not sure.
	Well, am I sure the MX would work?
	No, no, no.
	It's not that it would work.
	It's would it ever have been used.
	In other words, what I am laying out, if the space program has been an exquisite blind alley, that they've hidden what you're really about, which is what you're saying, which is what not only me is saying, but a lot of inside NASA folks who have the courage to stand up at a press conference and lay their careers on the line.
	More of them coming every day.
	If that's true, what else might also be a blind alley?
	Alright, we will consider that.
	Stay right where you are.
	To get my book, The Quickening, or Richard's materials, including the monuments of Mars, call 1-800-864-7991.
	Call 1-800-864-7991.
	I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
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	Hey, you want to hear Art Bell sound just like Richard Hoagland?
	Watch this.
	Hey, Richard?
	Hmm?
	Did you know that gold is 19.5 times heavier than water?
	Yes.
	Sorry.
	I couldn't resist.
	People, I want to talk for a second about this.
	When I have you on the air and we do a program as we are tonight,
	I get reactions that vary from, man, this guy is traddling on about nothing or this is
	boring, to, oh my God, the light bulb went on.
	This is the most exciting thing I've ever heard.
	And it seems to depend on how people listen to you.
	If they really listen to you, they get it.
	If they just sort of casually have the radio on, they don't get it at all.
	It doesn't sink in, no light bulbs go on, and they just hear chatter.
	And I get, there's no middle ground.
	They either seem to not get it, Or they completely get it.
	Have you noticed that?
	In the reaction that you get to people who write to you?
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, over the last 15 years, there's been an extraordinarily broad segment of people that we've exposed, you know, our data to.
	Sure.
	And a lot of people, because we're not used to in this culture taking anything seriously, except the Fed or, you know, Newt Gingrich's bank account or, you know, stuff like that, This does sound like it's coming from outer space to most people.
	They have no reference.
	Now your audience is different because they're used to thinking about things that normally folks don't think about.
	It's true.
	But even so, as I said at the top of the show, you yourself do not often tell your audience when you're being serious as opposed to when you have things on that are just fun and games.
	And because we don't have an educational system That's worth anything in terms of discernment, in terms of figuring things out.
	What most people do is they listen for a familiar authority figure.
	The fact that Ted Koppel says nice things about me, that Arthur Clarke says nice things about me, that Bob Jastrow says nice things about me.
	These are people that some people know and everybody knows Koppel.
	For a lot of people, it's going to be, oh, Ted Koppel says something nice.
	Maybe I should listen to him.
	Even though they have a clue as to what I'm talking about, it's just that Ted Koppel, an authority figure, that they see every night on ABC, you know, acknowledged that I did something 20 years ago before NASA said it's true.
	That puts you in a whole different ballpark.
	Yeah, how do you think that got to Mr. Koppel?
	I know exactly how.
	Well, tell us.
	How?
	Should I tell you?
	Well, yes.
	This reminds me of that old joke from my grandmother during the Depression, when there wasn't a lot of food.
	And they were having guests over and one of the young guys, one of the young kids was trying to help, was setting up a table and my grandmother said to him, now look, there really isn't enough.
	I want our guests to have seconds.
	So if I pass you the potatoes and I say, will you have some more?
	Then you can have some more.
	If I pass them and I say, won't you have some more?
	That means there's not enough to go around.
	You're supposed to, you know, pass them on.
	So dinner comes and dinner is served and Eventually my grandmother passes the potatoes around and says, you know, won't you have some more?
	And he sits there and he looks at the ceiling and he says, let's see now.
	Will I or won't I?
	Will I or won't I tell you how we got information to Ted Koppel?
	We'll have some more.
	We have known Mr. Koppel for some years.
	And his interest in our work has been more than casual, behind the scenes.
	He's been looking at this.
	He told me once that he could not believe that there could be the kind of conspiracy that I am talking about, because since he's been in Washington for 25 years, if anything like this had been going on, he would know about it.
	You know, this is an extremely interesting position because it implies that just because you're Ted Koppel, you know everything that's going on.
	It's a very dangerous position.
	In fact, that's how media are manipulated.
	By giving them the illusion, you know, that if there's something important, they will be notified.
	They will, they will, it'll be leaked to them.
	Yes.
	Well, but I mean, he said this in absolutely, you know, straight-faced sincerity.
	This is what Ted firmly believes.
	That is dangerous, yes.
	When he properly acknowledged our priority in terms of the Europa material, I have it on excellent authority, because a friend of mine was there, that when he got into the elevator and was going down to leave that morning in his car, he made the comment to this private elevator that a lot of other things that had been revealed to him on the subject matter appeared to be coming true.
	So it looks like there has been a learning curve and a learning process at You know, underway even in Washington at major media levels.
	My point of all this, Art, was you cannot listen to people based only on who you think they are.
	You have to listen to the words.
	You have to listen to the logic.
	You have to actually follow the evidence.
	Follow the reasoning.
	Follow the paper trail.
	And if it's internally consistent, and it's testable, and you can go out and verify pieces of it, even if you can't verify all of it, then you should look further.
	If you can't verify it, if none of it makes sense, then turn the dial.
	Nobody has to listen to me, alright?
	Well, that's right.
	They don't have to listen to you.
	But to me, I do listen to you, and you do make sense to me.
	Sometimes it takes a while to get there, but you make sense to me.
	And so that I understand why some of the audience, particularly the newbies, are missing it because they just don't stick with it long enough to understand the points that you're trying to make.
	And to some, getting there seems tedious, but these really are important points and you can't just leap there or you're going to really sound like a coot.
	You've got to lay the base or it doesn't mean anything.
	Well, in the judicial system, we all have this incredible experience, Alas Simpson, of being reacquainted with our judicial system.
	Sure.
	There is a procedure called laying appropriate foundation.
	That's right.
	In a court of law, you cannot introduce evidence without laying appropriate foundation.
	What I try to do, Art, many times, is to lay an appropriate foundation because I know that 99% of what I'm talking about For most people, it's like speaking Greek.
	They've never heard it before, or certainly never heard it in this context.
	When I put together the material tonight for the web on Tom Van Flandern's material, a la Hale-Bopp, I had to put in a lot of background material to bring people who were going to come to this for the first time up on who Van Flandern is, commentary models, standard perceptions of the astronomical community, Why we now think, looking at Hale-Bopp, we're seeing very striking, clear, if indirect evidence of these satellite fragments whirling around inside the nucleus.
	Have you had any reaction from Alan Hale or anybody in the astronomical community beyond Van Flanderen with regard to this model?
	Well, he and I have talked.
	Tom and I talked.
	In fact, we talked earlier this evening.
	And we've been trying to get the Hubble people To turn Hubble toward the comet.
	The most extraordinary outrage is taking place, and I don't know quite what to do about it, so we might have some thoughts before the end of the evening.
	We have been told that because of the constraints of not pointing Hubble toward the Sun, and the geometry of the comet vis-a-vis the Earth and all that, that the next opportunity for Hubble to actually get close-ups of the comet will not be until August.
	Oh my God.
	That means it'll be gone.
	Yeah, it's moving away.
	Absolutely.
	Very rapidly now.
	Now, because of the nearness, you know, roughly one AU astronomical unit away, probably the Earth's distance to the Sun.
	Right.
	And the size, the brightness, and the clarity of the various phenomena, I was very adamant that Tom should be pursuing inside NASA all efforts to get observations made of the nucleus With the extraordinary resolving power of this $2 billion instrument we've all paid for in Earth orbit.
	When I was at the Hayden Planetarium many years ago, we had a comet come through called Kohoutek.
	Yes.
	Remember Kohoutek?
	Certainly.
	The first of what were termed comets of the century.
	I remember the fuss everybody was making at that time.
	This was back in the, let's see, Early 1970s, alright?
	73, 74.
	And we had crews going up to Skylab right after the moon missions at that time.
	And it was such an extraordinary possibility of surveying a comet from airless space that I remember the astronauts in Skylab were doing observations and relaying them down to Houston by radio, taking pictures, taking quest stars, using solar instruments to make some observations, Of Kohoutek, which was nowhere near as interesting as this extraordinary thing called Hale-Bopp.
	Right.
	Well, the other day when the shuttle astronauts were in the shuttle, in orbit, there was not one experiment or one mission directive or one reference by that crew to this comet.
	And even more astonishing, we have an instrument up there that was just serviced and upgraded with new instruments, you know, Hubble.
	And I found out through sources that Hal Weaver, who is a young astronomer in Baltimore at the Space Telescope Institute, who basically beat his comets with Hubble.
	He was the one that directed the incredible Hubble shots of the impact of Shoemaker-Levy 9 on Jupiter.
	Right.
	Hal Weaver had applied to Dan Golden and the hierarchy at NASA to hide in the shadow of the Earth Which would allow them to point close to the Sun, which would be hidden by the Earth itself, and to get extraordinary close-ups of the intimate, exquisite details, with the full resolving power and all the instruments aboard Hubble, and had been turned down.
	Tom Van Flandern, at my urging, tried to renew the request and go above Weaver and get to the people who were actually in charge of the decision, And he was told, literally, yesterday afternoon, that they didn't do it because it would mean too many other observations would have to be postponed, and there was no basic scientific value in it.
	No scientific value.
	Now, this is an outrage, because Hubble is the only instrument in existence which could peer from Earth into the heart of this brilliant comet, And could discern whether there is one object twirling on its axis, or multiple objects.
	And as I've laid out in the last few minutes, if there are multiple objects, according to Van Planern and his calculations, it means that these objects, these comets, are formed by an extraordinary event in solar system history, etc., etc., etc., and the implications for astrophysics, for astronomy, geology, sociology, who we are, what's happened in the solar system, for everything!
	profound. Now I cannot believe in in real conscience that they're telling Tom the
	truth. I think they have taken this data and it's one of those things that is
	being kept secret and away from the people who are paying for this mission.
	Okay Richard, at the possible expense of myself going out on a limb again, there
	are still reports coming in of very anomalous things occurring with regard
	to Hale-Bopp. I sent you a couple of faxes I think earlier tonight about it
	and because I suppose of the big hubbub, they're being buried, they're not being
	talked about, but there are many anomalous things about Hale-Bopp and to
	imagine that they're not taking their best shot with their best facility to
	take a look at this and settle this very important argument.
	Well, Tom was talking with the operations director of the telescope this afternoon.
	For some reason, they bumped him over, you know, one receptionist to another, and he got to talk to the guy who actually designs the observations.
	And he admitted that they've now worked out a procedure whereby they can cheat on this close aiming toward the sun so they didn't have to hide in the shadow of the earth as the spacecraft would sail into the shadow and have about five minutes of clear viewing.
	They can look at Hale-Bopp from the day side of the earth meaning they could have a half an hour or three quarters of an hour observation.
	But they're not doing it.
	Now I think this is an outrage and I'll tell you what I would like to do.
	I would like some of those 15 million open-minded people who follow you every night, Art, to
	pick up their fax machines and to put in a piece of paper and to send it to Dan Golden
	at NASA headquarters.
	I would like NASA to know that the American taxpayer thinks this is an egregious abridgment
	of the normal procedure whereby science is addressed in this country now, which is at
	the taxpayer's expense.
	So clearly you're saying they can image Hubble without risk.
	Without risk, with no problem.
	And they're not doing it.
	They're not doing it.
	At least that's what they're saying they're not doing.
	In fact, I don't think anybody in their right mind would let this opportunity go by and not bring all those instruments to bear on extraordinary problems which have incredible implications Even if you discount Van Flandern totally.
	So then you think they're doing it and we're not getting the data.
	Exactly.
	And what I would like to do is have a whole set of faxes show up on Dan Golan's carpet.
	Because then I can direct media people, like Ted Koppel, to ask Mr. Golden why, in God's name, aren't you taking some data?
	And see what he says.
	Remember, Ted Koppel is my friend now.
	He thinks I'm right about something.
	Be careful here.
	Okay?
	Be careful.
	Well, look, Larry, it's only good if you use it.
	Oh, no, you're right.
	It doesn't do any damn good if you don't use it.
	No, you're right.
	It's like political capital.
	There's no question about it.
	You've got to use it.
	You've got to use it.
	But be careful about calling Ted your friend.
	I mean, he said something nice about you, but look out for tomorrow.
	Well, actually, I have new data.
	There's another data point.
	All right.
	Another data point we shall get to shortly.
	If you would like Richard Hoagland's material, uh, and a good starting point I think would be the Monuments of Mars, um, or you would like an assigned first edition, that is an autographed copy, first edition of my book, which is now only going to be available for a few more days, that's how fast it's, and the whole first printing is going to be gone.
	Either way, for Richard's materials or my new book, The Quickening, You can call 24 hours a day 1-800-864-7991.
	That's 1-800-864-7991.
	hours a day, 1-800-864-7991. That's 1-800-864-7991. From the high desert, this is CBC.
	The talk station, AM 1500 KSTP.
	Thank you for watching.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
	That's 702-727-1295.
	First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Now, here again, Art Bell.
	Good morning, everybody.
	Richard C. Hoagland is my guest, and this morning's program has not been, as you can tell, a caller-driven program.
	We may get to a few calls here, I don't know.
	I've got something that I think Richard is going to very much enjoy in a moment, or maybe not.
	It is a fresh Associated Press report, and maybe he can explain it.
	I sure can.
	Time is 6-0-6-0.
	All right.
	What I'm going to do is read an Associated Press story, Clear the Wire at 3-0-9-A-M, sent to me by Robert, my affiliate at K2MS.
	It's entitled, Physicists Theorize Space is Not the Same in All Directions.
	Far from a random jumble of galaxies and empty space, two physicists now say the universe may have an ordered structure.
	The Kansas and New York scientists say they studied spores of distant galaxies and they found that radio signals from one part of the heavens acted differently ...than those from other parts.
	Essentially, they say the universe has structure that extends billions of light-years across space.
	The discovery, should it hold, could have any number of explanations, according to the researchers among them, that the Big Bang, that many believe created the universe, was not a uniform blast, but in effect bulged out in more than one direction.
	Or, It could mean there's some physical force that scientists have previously overlooked.
	Their theory will be published Monday in the journal Physical Review Letters.
	Richard, what does that mean?
	Well, you know that there's been a long discussion for the last ten years or so about so-called dark matter.
	Right?
	Yes.
	Dark matter, for those that don't know what we're talking about, is matter that's dark.
	It's invisible.
	Stars shine by internal energy sources, right?
	Right.
	Planets shine by reflected light.
	The only planets we can see are those in the solar system.
	Anything beyond the solar system, if it's not shining by its own internal luminosity, its own energy source, Well, we have detected a few only by their passage in front of light sources.
	Yeah, well those events are extremely controversial because it depends on, well, they're just rare and controversial.
	Yes.
	We do see in the galaxy, in this spiral pinwheel about 100,000 light years across, clouds of gas and dust.
	The dust is shining by reflected light.
	By and large, the stuff we see in the rest of the universe, if it isn't self-luminous, we don't see it.
	Right.
	About 20 years ago, a young astronomer named Virginia Trimble, I'm sorry, Vera Rubin, not Virginia Trimble, Vera Rubin, was measuring rotations of galaxies using a technique that we don't have to get into.
	And she discovered that galaxies are rotating very differently than had been predicted by
	all previous models.
	When you look at the solar system, which is shaped kind of like a very thin disk, with
	the planets all orbiting in one plane, Mercury goes around the sun every 88 days.
	Pluto goes around in 248 years, and they're about 4 billion miles apart.
	In other words, the inner planets are racing around, and the outer planets move very slowly.
	This is because of something called Kepler's third law.
	Well, astronomers like Dr. Rubin expected that when we look deep into the universe, and we're looking at rotations of whole galaxies, that galaxies like solar systems, like our solar system, would revolve with the central part spinning very fast around the center, and the outer edges trailing very far behind and moving very slowly.
	In fact, what Vera and her colleagues discovered was that galaxies, unlike the solar system, rotate essentially like LP records.
	Like solid objects.
	Even though they're composed of billions and billions of separate stars and a lot of other stuff.
	Right?
	Meaning that the outer parts go around in the same period of time that the inner parts go around.
	Which, from known laws of physics, was impossible.
	Yes.
	So, using that known law, which was basically Newton's theory of gravitation, there came into being the idea that, well, to account for these anomalous rotations, there had to be more stuff in the galaxy than could be accounted for by the luminous stars.
	And they modeled how it was distributed, and how much there was, and where it was above and below the plane, and all that.
	Ultimately, it turned out That to account for the rotations of galaxies that are observed all over space now by spectroscopes and big telescopes, including Hubble, 99% of the matter in the universe that accounted for these rotations had to be totally invisible.
	Now, where am I going with this?
	Well, here's the point.
	The whole theory, the whole chain of logic for proposing that there is all this dark matter
	that has never been observed directly, Art.
	There's not one test, one observation where you can say, okay, there it is.
	It's all indirect and it's the motions of matter we can see
	in terms of the presence, the inferred presence of stuff, of matter that we can't see.
	And the connection, the glue, is the Newtonian laws of motion.
	Now here's an interesting wrinkle.
	Suppose Newton is wrong.
	Suppose over the enormous distance scales, Tom Van Planen goes into this in his book a bit, over enormous distance scales, gravity does not behave the way it does above the earth, or in the solar system.
	But in fact, there are different scaling laws when you get into truly If that were true, it would mean that the motions that they're seeing of these galaxies are in fact observable or explainable by not invoking that 99% of the universe is composed of matter that has never been seen and can never be seen.
	We're proposing the existence of something based solely on a theory.
	And if the theory is wrong, the observational conclusions will be incorrect, and you'll go down the wrong canyon.
	So it's interesting that these guys are going to publish a paper which says that if you look in certain directions in space, the signals somehow are different.
	Then they are here.
	I obviously don't know any of the details.
	I need to read the paper.
	But what it seems to me to be approaching is the hyperdimensional model which says that space, the structure of space, the reality of space, the laws of physics themselves are uniquely determined by what's going on in terms of mass rotating in that region of space.
	And that all of space can't be viewed as uniform with the laws the same all over simultaneously from one end of the universe, whatever that means, to the other.
	Yeah, I really thought you might say that.
	No.
	It was just a guess.
	Oh, just an average guess.
	Just an average guess.
	Michael, you're paying close attention?
	Maybe I've been interviewing you long enough.
	I guess you have.
	Do you want to take a couple of calls?
	Absolutely, yeah.
	Alright, let's do that.
	The feedback will be useful to see if anybody's been listening.
	Keep talking about these 15 million people, but so far they don't show up.
	Oh, they've been ringing the phones all night.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard C. Holborn.
	Hi.
	Mr. Bell.
	Yes.
	Good morning, sir.
	Good morning.
	Where are you?
	This is Robert from San Joaquin Valley, California.
	Yes?
	Yes, Mr. Holborn.
	So yes, Mr. Haldeman, it's a distinct honor to talk with you, sir.
	And I would say that I'm sure you recall last year, Wednesday, August the 7th, 1996, as
	a day in history.
	Thank you.
	I'm going to the hospital. I'm going to the hospital.
	Sir?
	Do you, Richard?
	Wednesday, August... Oh, of course, of course, that was the NASA press conference.
	That was the ALH84001 when they announced... The microfossil from Mars.
	Yes, sir.
	And David McKay, the geochemist of NASA's Johnson Space Center, Yeah.
	He and his team said that they are convinced that there was life on Mars.
	And I congratulate you, sir.
	They're finally catching up.
	Well, thank you.
	Thank you very much, sir.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	East of the Iraqis, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi, Eric.
	Steve from South Dakota.
	Hello, Steve.
	Hi, Steve.
	Hi, Richard.
	How are you?
	I won't give your secret away.
	No, don't do that.
	I never even wondered what speaker we're talking about.
	Steve has been independently researching some of the lunar data and at a future time, Mark, he has some pretty interesting things to lay out, both on our website and maybe in a program video.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Independent confirmations to be avidly sought.
	Yes, sir.
	My radio sort of faded out when I thought I heard you say, Richard, that the SDS-80 video would be made available to the public?
	We're going to make them both available.
	We now have the first generation of STS-48, which we didn't have when I did the extension of the U.N.
	So what we're going to do is a composite tape with analysis and computer overlays and this critical assessment by this team of aerospace professionals who literally worked out all the rendezvous equations and have worked with our space hardware for the last 30 years.
	And when they say this stuff is doing things that can't be done, People will believe them, because they're the guys who got us to and from the moon, among other things.
	Right.
	With old-fashioned rockets.
	Whatever we're looking at in this video, it ain't rockets.
	Right.
	Second question.
	I sent a four-page fax to you just a little while ago on some NASA JPL pictures of... Yes, yes, I got it.
	And they were put in there by the Director of Publications, Mrs. Anderson.
	Incidentally, I'm going to send a fax to respectfully request that she and your company access your
	paper.
	And they had a picture of low-bay flows with volcanic vents on the moon.
	On Europa.
	Yeah.
	How can that be possible?
	Well, it may be that this so-called planet-wide ocean or satellite-wide ocean that we've been
	talking about, that I was talking about, may not be planet-wide.
	There may actually be pieces of solid stuff sticking up, i.e.
	continents, in which case we have an even more eerie analog to Earth, in terms of Europa, and that portends a whole other discussion, which we have no time to get into tonight.
	Sure.
	Well, I hope to talk to you soon, and thank you, and thanks a lot, Art.
	Thank you, Steve.
	Take care.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hovland.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Art.
	I'm calling from Seattle.
	Seattle, yes sir.
	I was trying to reach you for a couple of days.
	My name is Boris.
	I'm from Russia originally.
	I can barely hear you Boris.
	He's from Russia.
	Right, I'm from Russia and I'm a freelance photographer.
	I've been here for 7 years and I was trying to actually somehow advertise the video I shot a long time ago in Moscow between 1989 and 1990.
	What is the video of?
	Well, a bunch of youthful activities in Moscow.
	It was widespread in Europe.
	Well, I would be very interested in that video, so if you would send it to me, I would be glad to take a look.
	How's that?
	Well, the sound is great, but I want to tell you one story.
	You've probably heard about Reel TV.
	I'm sorry?
	Reel TV, right?
	Reel TV, yes.
	Right.
	So I sent a tape to them.
	I talked to the folks.
	Because I'm back on set.
	Unfortunately, we cannot edit it right now because we don't have much interest for you folks.
	All right.
	Well, if you will send it to me, I will show some interest and watch it and pass it on to other people.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Merrick from Chicago.
	Chicago.
	Yes, sir.
	So, the question is, what's your opinion about the upcoming polar shift?
	There is going to be one.
	All right, Richard, does a polar shift at any point seem part of the model if things continue in a direction that we hope they don't?
	Well, we know there have been shifts in the past.
	The problem is the precision of predicting when they will occur in the future.
	Sure.
	It's very difficult to get precision in terms of time.
	Uh, all we can say is it happened before and it will happen again.
	The problem is getting down low.
	Alright, uh, first time caller on the line, you're on the air with Richard C. Holbrook.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Hey, is this, who is this?
	Well, who are you calling?
	Oh, I'm calling you, but I'm totally shocked that I got through.
	Okay.
	Um, the radio's on, so I thought, and I didn't... Turn it off.
	Oh yeah, okay, I turned it off.
	Okay, um, I have something interesting that might interest you guys.
	I'm from Auburn, Washington.
	There's a super mall here that has the Old Navy store here.
	This is really pissing me off because I can't remember.
	I think it was a star with a circle around it.
	There was a thing above the sign that was in the mall.
	Can you go and photograph it?
	Absolutely.
	Send me the picture.
	Oh yeah, but wait, I have a story I have to tell you because it's very, very interesting.
	I walked in there and, um, because I heard what you said about it before and we tried to call that number, you know, and it said that there weren't any stores in that area.
	So, um, because we were in Bellingham then.
	Right.
	We were in Bellingham because we were staying up with some friends.
	We heard your program, we just called it, and they instantly said, Bob, well, you know, there's no stores in this area.
	Okay, so I went to the mall the other day.
	I walked in there and there was a woman with, um, she looked like, she had headphones on and plus she had like a hip pack on, like black stuff.
	I don't know, like it looked like maybe there was a battery holder and stuff for her head piece or something, but she was like decked head, just weird.
	And she never looked up at me or anything, but I asked her, she was like really rude, you know, and I thought that's really strange that she would be standing right in the doorway because You know, if you knew anything about, like, dying stuff, you know that that kind of a look would scare people away?
	Exactly.
	You know what I'm talking about?
	Yeah.
	You know, and, um, so, this weird kid, I went in, she never looked up at me once, not even once, no eye contact, but I, I just decided to leave, but I, I said, well, can you tell me where the nearest bathroom is?
	Because I'm four months along pregnant, and that's the first time I had to go to the bathroom at the wrong time, but she goes, yeah, she goes, the closest one is right outside the doorway, down the hall, and to the right.
	So, before, which is stupid, what I did is I did exactly what she said, but I went down this hallway in the mall, you know, it's just a hallway in the mall, never looking up to see what the hallway sign said above where I was going, right?
	I went down this hallway, I swear to you, this is 100% true story, I have no reason to lie, I went down this hallway, which had cameras, you know, like cameras wouldn't be seen in the mall, in the hallways, um, but then I took a left, because then it did say down there that there was a bathroom, and I saw, um, two rooms, Huge rooms with cast iron steel doors.
	And they said that there were showers.
	Shower rooms, which I don't know why they have them all, but I'm just trying to say I saw it down there.
	Then I saw someone opening a door.
	It was a man dressed like she was.
	But it was a man.
	I mean, he had this headset on, too.
	And there was a whole bunch of men in there.
	I didn't see any women, I don't know.
	That has to do with it, but I just saw a bunch of men, they were all wearing this kind of headset like her.
	And what were they doing?
	I have no idea.
	I can only tell you that I saw one.
	Were they sitting at desks?
	Hello?
	Were they sitting at desks or consoles?
	No, walking.
	They're walking and I couldn't see.
	See, I only saw in here because I'm walking towards the bathroom.
	So one of them walks into this room.
	He opens the door so I just see a crack.
	So no one showed me in or anything.
	But I thought it was really strange.
	And I thought it was strange that, um, there were shower rooms and there were hundreds of rooms down there that weren't, they didn't, like, they weren't entrances.
	You know, like, I've worked in a mall before.
	And I've worked, like, you'd walk out of the back of the office and it'll say, you know, enter this exit or whatever to go back into your little store, you know?
	And they weren't marked like the stores.
	Well, there you go, Richard.
	Let's just keep asking questions.
	It is the strangest, most unusual story.
	We might have time for one more.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Richard Hogan.
	Hi.
	Good morning, General.
	This is Dan from Gardena, California.
	Yes, Dan.
	Yes, sir, Richard.
	Yes, sir.
	I was wondering if you could please explain what rods are.
	I've heard about them, but I'm not really quite sure.
	Okay, I don't think Richard is up on rods, are you?
	I didn't even hear what he said.
	Rods.
	He asked if you would explain rods.
	It's something that another researcher is looking into named Jose Escamilla.
	No, I don't.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hovland.
	Hello.
	Yeah, this is Rich Collins from South Carolina.
	Yes, sir.
	Yeah, I was wondering about the A-10 plane.
	Is it possible that it might be a different kind of bomb than what they're telling us?
	Would be on that airplane, not 500 pound bombs, but something more dire.
	Richard?
	Well, I mean, you can pack a tactical nuke in anything.
	Sure.
	But why would they be out with a training exercise with a guy?
	I mean, that doesn't make sense.
	No, I agree.
	All right.
	We're at the end of another program.
	Oh, no.
	Already?
	Oh, yeah.
	You must understand that from the way the sun is coming up.
	Oh, that's what that stuff was.
	I wondered.
	It was getting light out.
	Anyway, you've done it again.
	Yeah, well, you've done it again.
	Thank you, Richard.
	And as always, it's not a goodbye.
	It's until next time.
	And I have a feeling that's not going to be far away.
	I do, too.
	All right, so keep us informed, please, on the STS-80 business.
	Thank you, Richard.
	Good night, my friend.
	And good night to America, wherever you are.
	Oh, well, good boy.
	He's learned.
	He can do it.
	All right, that's it, folks.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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