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March 20, 1997 - Art Bell

02:01:46

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - The Philadelphia Experiment - Al Bielek

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al bielek

01:13:12

38:34

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning, as the case may be, across all these many time zones.
		From the Hawaiian and Tahitian Island chains, with visions of dancing girls and more, all the way across my overcountry, that's us to the Caribbean, the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, and of course worldwide.
		On the internet, this is Coast to Coast A.M., and I'm Marpell.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Boy, what a program I've got for you.
		Originally scheduled, Father Malachi Martin will be with us, in all likelihood, next week.
		He was called out of town on an emergency.
		Had to go.
		Apologized, said we'll get together next week.
		So, instead, coming your way in a few moments, an absolute legend in his own time, Al Bielick.
		Al Bielick is one of the survivors of the Philadelphia experiment.
		He was intimately involved in the Philadelphia experiment, and we're going to talk to him.
		He's way over in Georgia someplace or another.
		A couple of quick notices for you.
		I have got something that you must see.
		And it is from Sean David Morton, who will be on at 1 o'clock after Al Bilik.
		And you must go to my website immediately, if not sooner.
		Let me read you what I've got, all right?
		Dear Art, this is from Sean David Morton.
		Here is the worldwide exclusive for you and your wonderful listeners on what is about to become the greatest and one of the most controversial pieces in the ongoing UFO ET puzzle.
		The attached photograph is a video grab, which means it is not as good quality, of course, I'm adding that, from a six-minute piece of footage smuggled out of Area 51 by a mysterious man known only as Victor.
		Victor claims he had, quote, occasion to be there, end quote, and took this while the entire contents of a massive series of interviews with a number of alien creatures was being downloaded from video to analog.
		This video purports to be of an alien creature being filmed through a one-way mirror and being questioned by a U.S. general and a telepathic aide.
		The E.T has a seizure at the end of the scene and is attended to by two doctors.
		At 1 a.m. this morning, Sean David Morton will be here and we will talk about the details of the photograph on my website now.
		Warning.
		This photograph is copyrighted, the sole property of Rocket Home Video, may not be downloaded or reproduced in any way.
		It is being used on the Art Bell website with exclusive permission from Rocket Video, arranged by Sean Morton.
		So there you have it.
		If I were you, I would get onto that right away.
		We really do have a worldwide exclusive year to imagine.
unidentified		Smuggled out of Area 51.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yikes.
		He says again.
		Coming in a moment, Al Belic.
		you Well, all right.
		This man is a legend.
		Almost everybody by now knows about the Philadelphia experiment.
		If you don't listen carefully, you're about to find out.
		It was an attempt to make a ship disappear.
		You can well imagine with submarines sinking our ships on a regular basis.
		America had good reason to try and figure out a way to make their ships as invisible as possible.
		And that is what led to an attempt to do exactly that that was called and is known as the Philadelphia Experiment.
		There are not many men alive who were part of that.
		Al Belick is one of those men.
		And he's in Georgia someplace.
		Hi, Al.
		Hi.
		How are you, old friend?
unidentified		Okay.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Someplace happens to be Atlanta, Georgia.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Atlanta, Georgia.
		Okay.
		Are you enjoying yourself there?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, better than some other places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Put it that way.
		That's right.
		All right, Al.
		Tell me something.
		How old are you now, Al?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to my birth certificate, as Alpelik, I will be 70 at the end of this month.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		70, huh?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Al, when you pass on, who's going to be left?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Will there be anybody left who knows what you know?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
		All right, let's go way, way back.
		And I described at the beginning of the program the Philadelphia experiment as an attempt to make a ship invisible.
		And I think that's all they were really trying to do, actually invisible to radar.
		Yes.
		So that the submarines couldn't sink our ships.
		Is that accurate?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Basically, that is.
		The project, however, started long before the war years.
		It actually started in 1931 as a feasibility study.
		And that involved Nicola Tesla, Dr. John Hutchinson, who was then dean at the University of Chicago Engineering Department, and his staff physicist, Dr. Emil Kurtenauer.
		And they did what we today we call a Paper study, feasibility study, and didn't get very far with it until about 1934 when the project was transferred out of the University of Chicago, which is where it originated, to the Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton, New Jersey.
		Now, that institute had only come online in 1933 and had four original staff members, some of whom became part of the work of the experiment, though there were other projects afoot there also.
		It was a Dr. Alexander, Dr. John von Neumann, of course, Albert Einstein, and a Dr. Oswald Weblin, of which very little is known at this time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Al, what was the early work before it was oriented toward getting a ship to disappear radar-wise?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were they trying to do early on?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Early on was basically a study as to how can you possibly make an object invisible.
		And at that point, they were not concerned about radar.
		They were concerned about making it invisible to the eye or to a camera.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actual visual invisible visibility, correct.
unidentified		Okay.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And that was the early phase.
		And the radar, of course, was a laboratory plaything from 1931 until about 38 when the Navy had some of its first experimental radar systems aboard a few ships.
		And the radar wasn't very good then until about 41.
		In 1941, there was a major quantum leap, and radar became a very useful and valuable tool.
		And the Germans also had their own developments about that time, which made it a very valuable tool to them also.
		But the original intent was more or less just a study to see if you could do it.
		It wasn't concerned particularly about whether the Navy wanted to make chips invisible.
		That came a little later.
		But it did become of interest to the Navy from the beginning because the Navy has always had money for research.
		And at that time, they were looking at all kinds of new things.
		And, well, is there anything here that's worth investing in?
		And of course, in 1933, Franklin Delano Roosevelt came into office as the 32nd President of the U.S. He was an old friend of Nicola Tesla's because they had met during World War I in 1917 when Roosevelt was under Secretary of the Navy.
		So Tesla got invited to Washington and usually exchanged amenities and eventually wound up being named director of this experimental project, which was not classified at that time.
		It was strictly a study program, and nobody cable particularly what went on at the Institute of Advanced Study in Princeton because very few people knew about the place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So it was just a project to try to make something invisible.
		How were they at that time approaching it technically?
		Do you know?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, technically the approach then was the same as later on, at least during and through the end of World War II.
		There was a very complex system involving an understanding mathematically of the interrelationship between electric fields, magnetic fields, the gravity field, and it is a field, and the time field, which is also a field effect.
		And how do they interact?
		And can you manipulate one by manipulating the other three?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go through those again for me, if you would, please.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The electric field, such as the static electric field, which everybody learns about in grade school or high school.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, like the Tesla coil.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Like the Tesla coil produces a powerful electric field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		A magnetic field, which I think everybody's seen the effects of with magnets.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		A gravity field, which is something which most people do not understand or recognize and is not taught in the books.
		Gravity is a field effect.
		It is not a mutual attraction of matter for matter, as Sir Isaac Newton originally postulated.
		He had to come up with something when he was hit on the head and he came up with the wrong answer.
		But at least he gave him credit for trying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you explain to the layman the difference between a magnetic field and a gravity field?
		In other words, to me, a layman, magnetism is gravity.
		No, that's not right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you're right.
		It's not right.
		Suddenly it hit me.
		Of course it's not right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It's not the same, but they are interrelated.
		They're interlocked in a very peculiar way.
		The magnetic field, if you have any standard bar magnet, whether it's steel or any other material, has a north pole and a south pole.
		And according to the textbooks, the lines of force go from the north pole to the south pole.
		And they interconnect in a more or less linear manner, which is not true because the apparatus exists today to prove that the magnetic field of the north pole does not cross over to the south pole or vice versa.
		There is a wall in the middle called the block wall where the two fields intermingle.
		And this is actually observable with the proper equipment.
		It's not observable by using the old tried and true method of iron filings because what you do when you use iron filings is you magnetize each one of those little pieces of iron and they all become magnets in a line and they all line up like there was no external field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's true.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And consequently it does not show the true field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so I understand a magnetic field.
		It's a magnet.
		A gravity field, though, how would you create, for laboratory purposes, a gravity field?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That is not easily done.
		A gravity field is something which is a matter, which is, shall we say, the field is dependent upon matter coalescing.
		At the same time, the matter will not coalesce without a gravity field.
		Precisely what produces the gravity field in the first place, I couldn't tell you, and I don't know if any physicist could.
		It is, however, directly locked to the magnetic field and the electric field effects, and in a very strange way.
		There is a direct interrelationship of the propagation rate.
		As I recall now, and my physics is a little rusty.
		In terms of C, which is the postulated speed of light, as we measure here on Earth, a magnetic field will propagate at about 0.6 C. The gravity field propagates at the rate of 2 C, according to what I remember of this.
		And you have a peculiar relationship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know that there's been talk lately, Al, of gravity emissions or waves from stars that have exploded, that sort of thing.
		There's even a theory, the Israeli scientists have, that a gravity wave, which I guess would be a gravity field, wiped out the dinosaurs.
		There's a lot of serious scientists talking about that now.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, that particular one I hadn't heard, but I wouldn't doubt that that would be a consideration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That was an Associated Press story, believe me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, so, in other words, at this point, they had not begun to use rotating RF fields, which was used on the Eldridge, I believe, correct?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		No, they had not at this point yet come to that conclusion.
		But with the work which involved not only John von Neumann's understanding of some of the German mathematicians whom he understudied when he was in Germany before he came to the U.S., particularly the field effects and the idea of multiple realities and multiple universes, it's postulated by more than one mathematician.
		Von Neumann took that work.
		He also later on took the work of Einstein and the unified field theory, which was first tentatively released in 1929, but then withdrawn when Lord Russell took a look at Einstein's work and said, the world is not ready for this.
		I suggest you withdraw it.
		So Einstein did and said there were flaws in it.
		He had to correct.
		And according to the public word and the public knowledge, it was never reissued.
		This is not true.
		It was reissued in about 1938 and completed and whatever corrections he might have made.
		But it is still classified and it's part of the, shall we say, the reservoir of knowledge which our government retains for its own use.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much success, Al, did they have in the lab during those early years using electric, magnetic, and gravity fields?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they have any success?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		In 1936, they did have a first test.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was not really very successful, but it did tell them that they were at least working in the right direction because they got partial results, but they did not get complete results.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know any details of those results?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No.
		At this point, I do not.
		I was not part of those tests at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they observed some effect on solid material, some kind of effect?
unidentified		Yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And they continued work at the Institute.
		In 1940, September, if I remember correctly, they had the first really successful test with a small Navy ship.
		It was a tender, small, about 250, 300 tons at Brooklyn Navy Yard.
		And utilizing the same basic technical approach, it was fully successful.
		The important point was, while the ship became optically invisible, the camera into the eye, there was no one on board that ship.
		They conducted it with a ship totally empty of any personnel.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		What was on that ship?
		How did they rig that ship, that first one?
		Do you know any details of that?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Some of the details, yes.
		They had coils on the deck for the magnetic field.
		They had an RF generator of a rather powerful transmitter in effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so they were using RF in 1940.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They were even then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's radio frequency, folks, like hand transmit and like the radio station you're listening to right now.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		That is correct.
		And if you interlock the RF field with the magnetic field and rotating counterclockwise at two different rates of rotation with a correct mathematical relationship, you will interact with the gravity field.
		And with that, you will also lock into the time field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, now wait, wait, wait.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		say all that again slowly if you if you take a rotating r_f_ field Actually, the rate that was concerned was one was rotating twice as fast as the other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, do you know what frequency and power levels of RF they were using?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The frequencies remained essentially the same.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The RF field frequency was right around 160 megahertz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		hundred and sixty megahertz okay uh...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and you know how power levels they were RF can be presented or transmitted in many forms.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM, FM, continuous wave carriers.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		This was an AM continuous wave with modulation.
		It was not pulsed.
		It was a continuous system, i.e.
		AM amplitude modulated CW, if you will.
		The carrier was essentially CWAM modulated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		CW, okay, that's new information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		CWAM modulated, I'll be damned.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you've got that rotating.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You wouldn't know at what rate.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was basically the same.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It remained at a pi over 2 rate of rotation, pi over 2 radians per second for the magnetic field and pi radians per second for the electric field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a sec.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say radians, you mean rotations?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No, radians is a measurement.
		In other words, it takes six radians for one complete circumnavigation of a circle.
		In other words, you can mathematically divide up the circle into a radians, and it takes six radians.
		A radian meaning the distance from the center of the circle out to the actual radius you are describing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Six radians equals, according to mathematics, six radians equals circumference.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, 360 degrees.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and the gravity field was rotating at 2.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The gravity field actually was not rotating per se.
		It was being interacted with and interlocked by the two rotating fields of the electric and magnetic field.
		The mathematics which says why this will happen has long since escaped me.
		It was very complex.
		And it was John Van Neumann's mathematics, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me come back to the RF for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In that year, in 1940, 160 megahertz was pretty exotic stuff, wasn't it, that far back?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Not really.
		It was exotic, but not beyond the range of, let us say practical reality because the Navy was already working with radar systems running at 200 megahertz, 400 up to 500 megs with push-pull triodes.
		This was before the days of the Magnetron.
		When the Magnetron was snuck over from England in late 1940 and went to Western Electric to be duplicated and manufactured, they suddenly had a quantum leap in radar because they went up to 9.5 gigahertz.
		This was in production equipment in 1941.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good Lord.
		Al, we're at a break point.
		Relax.
		We'll be right back to you.
		This is absolutely fascinating stuff.
		And in case you don't know it, what you're listening to is a technical description of a time machine.
		Listen very carefully.
		This is the independent CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		It's all right and it's coming on.
		We've got to get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good.
		Love can be strong.
		We've got to get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good.
		Call our bells.
		Pull free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and my guest is the Venerable Al Belix.
unidentified		See how he reacts to that description.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the final survivors of the Philadelphia experiment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back to him in a moment.
unidentified		Back to him in a moment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Back now to Atlanta, Georgia, and Al Belick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Al, I made a statement going into the break there, and I said what we are really describing here is a time machine, isn't it?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		In a sense, that is correct.
		They were not intent upon traveling through time.
		That was not the purpose.
		If you look at some of the technical work that has been made available to the public, such as P. D. Palucke's book on how you can examine higher levels of space and time, he goes into the mathematical equivalent shown graphically of the torus of time, as it is called.
		You can mathematically model time as a coil working its way through space.
		And as Einstein has stated many years ago, there's no such thing as a straight line in our universe.
		It's a curved and closed universe.
		And this implies also to the time field.
		It's like a huge donut, a closed loop, very large, of course.
		But nevertheless, there is that coiled effect.
		And this is where one gets into a still further analysis, which becomes somewhat hard to grasp.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's not go there yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The 1940 experiment that we were just talking about?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somehow or another, they started up all these electronics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess they got the shipwrecked out a little ways.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No, in the case of the 1940 test, the ship was dockside.
		Actually, not immediately dock side, but in an area of the Brooklyn Navy Yard where the water was fairly deep, and they ran long cables from two adjacent ships, which had the rest of the heavy equipment on them.
		And the coils and the antenna, which provided the rotating magnetic and electric fields, were on the ship, which was the test vehicle, namely the small tender.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was the power source for all that also on the ship?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was on the other ships.
unidentified		on the other ships okay so they drew it I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they began all this by simply turning power on from the other ships.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And when they did that, Completely invisible.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To both radar and...
		Very good point.
		Very good point.
		So it actually became invisible.
		Now, when it did, Al, I mean, here's a ship in the water displacing water, right?
		Yes.
		When it became invisible, what happened at the water line?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		At the water line, the water also became invisible for a certain distance out a little bit beyond the hull line of the ship itself.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		In other words, the part of the water which would appear invisible was larger than the ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would make sense too, yes, okay.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Not by a great deal, because they were not using very high power on the ship.
		It was a somewhat simplified approach.
		The later tests, with larger ships, used much more power.
		And, of course, there the water line, the visible water line, so to speak, was much larger than the ship.
		That, of course, occurred in 1943.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, we know how much RF, we talked about the RF extensively.
		What about the electric field?
		Do you know roughly how high a static voltage they were producing?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They weren't really producing a static voltage per se.
		It was the RF field, which has two components, electric and magnetic, and they were only concerned with the electric field effect, which would be measured in so many volts per meter, typically.
		And I do not recall any figures on that, but this was a small ship.
		A small test was fairly low power.
unidentified		How big was the ship, actually?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Tender would be approximately, a small one would be about 150 feet long.
		It could be even a little shorter, but this was one that was in that vicinity of 125, 150 feet, as I remember now.
		I don't even know the name of the ship.
		In fact, I don't know if we ever were told what the name of the ship was.
		But you see, at that point, I had become part of the experiment.
		I had become part of it in January 1940.
		This test was actually in September 1940, and of course, when I was part of that experiment and was dead, that was not Al Beelik.
		It was my original family name, Edward Cameron, because I had been born as Edward Cameron on the 4th of August 1916, and Brother Duncan in May of 1917.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you worked on that project then from January through September when they did the experiment of 1948?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And we continued working after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What were you doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were you a labor person setting up coils, building things, or what were you doing?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We were brought on board by the Navy, and apparently because of our father's connections.
		We both had degrees, PhDs in physics.
		We both graduated in the summer of 1939, I from Harvard and Brother Duncan from University of Edinburgh in Edinburgh, Scotland.
		And we enlisted in the Navy in September of 1939, went through a 90-day winter school training, as we called it.
		And in January 1940, we became part of the project.
		Now, what did we do is what you asked.
		Basically, we had to be brought up to speed of what we thought we knew everything, but we quickly found out we didn't know what the cutting edge of science and technology was far ahead of the schools.
		When we were brought up to speed, our task was twofold.
		One, to give whatever assistance we could theoretically or in terms of building some specialized equipment.
		And secondly, to learn and understand what the whole system was about, because at a later date, the two of us were designated as the people who operated the equipment when it came to the point of onboard equipment on an operating ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, they at that point already were anticipating a live experiment downline, and you had to be brought up to speed, know the theory, and understand how to operate the equipment.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And also what to do in case something went wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know January through September of 1940 that they were going to make you part of a live experiment?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they tell you that then?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Figures, figures, figures.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Because nobody anticipated to be part of a live experiment at that point.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		After September 1940, when the test was fully successful, the Navy classified the project, called it Project Rainbow, and then took it over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		One last question before we leave this era.
		For what period of time did this ship disappear, and when it returned, was it intact?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		You're asking me to remember something which I didn't really fully know, but it was characteristic at that time.
		Typically, the tests ran about 20 minutes.
		And when the ship returned to normal visibility, it was in exactly the same location.
		There was no change in the shape or damage to the ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I meant, intact.
unidentified		Right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It would return completely intact.
		I mean, the test would be useless if something was gone from the ship.
		But nothing was gone.
		Everything was intact exactly as it had been.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they had no biological organisms, even animals?
unidentified		No.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The test was run dry, so to speak, in the sense that they didn't want anybody on board because they weren't sure exactly what would happen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And they had the long cables for a reason.
		In case something did went wrong, they could cut the cables and isolate the test vehicle.
		And it was also in deep enough water they could sink the ship if they had to, but none of those precautions proved necessary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another question, Gee Wiz, the cables, were they suspended in the air or in the water?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Basically, they were suspended in the air.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They weren't that long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In that case, at about the halfway point or the point at which the field encompassed the cable, the cable must have appeared to simply disappear into thin air.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's quite true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Wow.
		That must have been, for those who saw it, a complete mind-blower.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		For those witnesses who were not prepared, probably so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		All right, so there we are.
		We've got one successful test.
		And then I assume the armed services get really interested.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		Yes.
		The Navy took the project over, assigned headquarters for the operation in the Philadelphia Navy Yard to continue the organization of the test, the preparation for further testing and for eventually going to full-blown systems.
		In the Philadelphia Navy Yard, the theoretical work was still done at the Institute of Advanced Study, so Duncan and I were shuttling back and forth on a regular basis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was Einstein involved, still at this point, Tesla involved?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Einstein was involved almost from the beginning when it went to the Institute of Advanced Study because he was what they called the overseer of all the projects ongoing there.
		He had a nickname called him the general.
		If you had a problem, you went to see the general.
		If you got hung up for two weeks, he would usually solve it in five or ten minutes.
		Theoretically, he was unparalleled in terms of theory and concepts.
		Mathematics, he wasn't necessarily always the best, but that's not to be derogatory of Einstein.
		There were other people who knew math extremely well, such as John Van Neumann.
		And Tesla, who was designated director of the project, also knew his math very well.
		He also had a track record of never failing in anything he did up to that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, they were fully involved then.
		Everybody was still fully involved.
		I'm curious, after this successful experiment, what did they think they had done?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They thought that they had proven you can make an object invisible, you can make a ship invisible, therefore it's only a matter of scaling the equipment to make a large ship of the fleet invisible, such as a battleship, which is what Rizzible gave Tesla next.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so they didn't surmise there was any time travel or any of that baloney going on.
		They saw the ocean disappeared as well.
		So the object they surmised was still there in that time frame, simply invisible.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got that all straight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you go back Into the lab again after that experiment.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For how long?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, from that point on, September 1940, shortly after that, they moved a battleship into the backcorp, classified section of the Philadelphia Navy Yard and told Tesla, Well, Ms. Roosevelt said, I'm giving you a real ship to make invisible.
		Now, if you can make this invisible, you can make anything invisible.
		So obviously they had to upscale the equipment, the power, and they weren't allowed to make major renovations on the battleship, which created a problem because the equipment became much larger and more cumbersome.
		And they had to mount either all of it on the deck of the ship or find some way to enclose it on the ship because they were dealing with two large alternators, they were dealing with four coils, they were dealing with RF equipment, and all of this had to be put on the ship someplace.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And this time, I take it, they were going to have generators on board that were going to provide power for all that was needed or what?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		These were generators to provide the power for the coils which produced the rotating magnetic field.
		It was a very intense field.
		And, of course, when you go from say 250 or 300 tons to 30,000 tons, you have a considerable upscaling of power requirements.
		And that became a very sticky point with Tesla because he knew what he had to do in the way of power because of the approach.
		And he also knew that with the amount of power that would be required to make a battleship invisible, that he was going to have serious personnel problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let me ask this question.
		So much more power required.
		Why?
		Because of, one, the mass of the ship, or two, the size of the field you would need to cover that size of a ship.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It wasn't so much the mass of the ship as it was the size of the ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you had to make a field big enough to take it all in.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		You were generating essentially a doughnut-shaped field in which the ship, like in the doughnut, sat in the middle in the hole.
		And a battleship is quite large, as is now today.
		A carrier is even bigger.
		But when you go from a small tender, which may only be 120, 150 feet long, to a battleship which was about 600, 700 feet long, depending on the class, you have a field which is many times larger, and the power goes up exponentially.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		at this point you've got this gigantic experiment underway the hardware stuff being installed i guess you were Yes, we were part of it, but not for the whole time, because in January 1941, the Navy decided that Duncan and I, being officers, had to go to sea to learn what the Navy was all about.
		So they shipped this out, and we went on the USS Pennsylvania from sometime in late January until October of 1941 when it came into Pearl Harbor to go into dry dock for some more overhaul.
		The Pennsylvania was launched and commissioned in 1916, and I think it spent, I traced the history, it spent almost half of its life someplace in overhaul, a repair.
		Not that necessarily it was needing of all of these repairs, but they kept upgrading it and updating it.
		And it was Roosevelt's favorite ship, and they wanted it to be completely modern, so to speak.
		So I went to Dry Dock at Goes in 1941, in October, in Pearl Harbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's when you were just coming back from sea.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's correct.
		And we took leave of San Francisco, and on Jan, sorry, December 5th, we were scheduled to return to Pearl Harbor, and as we were about to board the plane at the Naval Air Station in San Francisco at Alameda, we were stopped, told our orders were canceled, and we were to go upstairs in the Naval Building and speak with an officer up there.
		It turned out to be Hal Bowen Sr., who was then head of the Office of Naval Engineering.
		He told us that we were not going back to Pearl Harbor.
		Our orders were canceled because he had reason to believe the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor within 48 to 72 hours, and they didn't want us there.
		He said, you will take off some more leave time until the end of your tour with the Pennsylvania, then you'll go back in January to the Institute.
		And it's going to be nothing but hard work.
		So he says, have fun in the meantime.
		And we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you did.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		We certainly did in San Francisco.
		So we return January 42.
		The preparations are nearly complete for the test of the battleship.
		And Tesla is almost beside himself because he knew with the power levels that we're going to use that there would be a severe personnel problem.
		He went back to the Navy and says, I need more time to solve this problem.
		He says, I'm sure it can be solved, but it needs some additional work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so Tesla was concerned about the biological effects of these various fields, the interacting fields?
		Or what was he mostly concerned about?
		Do you know?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		He was concerned about the effects not only of the RF fields, but the rotating magnetic field.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And his subsequent work proved the combined effect of the rotating electric and the magnetic field, so I think more the magnetic field than anything else, produced severe neurological disturbances in the human nervous system and the human brain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they begin, and I've always wondered about this, Al, instead of going directly to humans, did they do any experimentation on animals?
unidentified		No.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think one could say that categorically, it was wartime.
		They were in a hurry at that point because they were facing the problems of the sinking of about half of our shipping going across the Atlantic by a very efficient German U-boat fleet.
		And they were really pressured to find some solutions.
		And they didn't care at that point, and this is Tesla's concern, they didn't care at this point about how many sailors were sacrificed in the process of getting a workable solution.
		They were concerned about the overall picture of how are we going to stop this sinking of our ships, which half of it was going To the bomb.
		And each one of those ships, of course, represented anywhere from 50 to several hundred either merchantmen or sailors involved in each ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that the potential sacrifice of the few for the benefit of the many was an easy choice to make.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It's a wartime choice, and that was what they were concerned with.
		Well, the test date was set for March 42, and Tesla realized that it was contingent upon him to make a decision as to whether he's going to go ahead with a test and sacrifice probably some sailors or he sabotaged the test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, do you think he or sabotaged the test?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think that he knew that he would be sending men to their death?
unidentified		Yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And he refused to do it.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Consequently, he sabotaged the test, it failed, and he bowed out, saying the test is a failure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you know how he sabotaged it?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he made sure that none of the equipment worked in proper synchronization, that some of the transmitter drives were very weak, so there was no insufficient power output from the final booster stages.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That would do it.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So there was no rotating field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or it's so weak that it might not as well be there.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they ran that test with men on the Eldridge.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, this was not the Eldridge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it was not the Eldridge.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		This was the battleship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The battleship.
		And he sabotaged that.
		And it didn't work.
		And so he turned around and said to the Navy, sorry, it was a good try, but we didn't make it.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And I have other things I can do, and I feel I should leave at this point.
		And there's a very good man that can take over, Dr. John Van Neumann.
		So Van Neumann took over.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder what he told Van Neumann.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		I don't know if he told anything, because at times they were having difficulty speaking to each other because Van Neumann was a Ph.D. in physics, and here the director of the project didn't have degree one to his name.
		Tesla was a degreeless man.
		He had an honorary Ph.D., but he did not have an actual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I wonder if he took Van Oumann aside and gave him some private warning and he's...
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		I'm not privy to that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's important to know only, it would be interesting to know only because then you would know what to think about Van Neumann, whether he went ahead with knowledge that humans were going to die.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, he did not at that point because he said to the Navy, I have to examine this situation and find out what happened and what's wrong.
		And of course, he quickly found out what was wrong, and then he decided, well, I don't like Tesla's approach completely.
		The math is correct, but I don't want to do an analog system.
		I like pulse systems, so I'm going to redesign.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pulsing.
		All right, hold it right there, Al.
		Relax.
		We've got several minutes.
		We'll be back, and then we will talk about what happened at Philadelphia.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are listening to what I consider to be a historic interview with Al Bielick, now 70 years of age, and one of the last survivors of the Philadelphia experiment, that experiment to make a ship invisible.
		In the first hour, we have traced, technically and carefully, the origins of this experiment, its genesis, the electronic detail behind this experiment from the lab to a ship.
		And now we're going to talk about the USS Eldridge in a moment.
		Just a very quick note.
		We've got something so hot, it's burning on the webpage.
		It's a photograph grabbed from a six-minute piece of footage smuggled out of Area 51 and delivered to me by Sean David Morton, who will be with us in an hour.
		It's a picture of an alien being interrogated by a U.S. general.
		We'll tell you the entire story in an hour.
		In the meantime, get up there if you want to see this photograph, which is copyrighted and may not be reproduced in any way, and is only on our webpage with exclusive permission from Rocket Video arranged by Sean Morton.
		Nobody else has been able to get their hands on this, so you're seeing something for the first time ever.
		It's on the website now at www.artbell.com.
unidentified		www.artbell.com.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, the genesis of the experiment with Einstein, with Tesla, with an entire group of people in the lab using electric, magnetic, and gravitic fields.
		The beginning of the experiment, a partial success, then the addition of an RF field on a smaller ship.
		Invisibility was achieved in 1940.
		Al Bielick then went out to sea for a while, came back, and went to work on what is now known as the Philadelphia Experiment.
		Al, so welcome back, Al from Atlanta, Georgia.
		So there you were, and getting ready to perform and loading up all this equipment on the Eldridge.
		How long did it take to outfit the Eldridge for the experiment?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Actually, it took almost a year.
		The Eldridge was unlike what the Navy's official record says, and of course they acknowledge an Eldridge.
		the official record, I will not quote, but the actual record was, was launched in July of 42.
		And the keel was actually in the process of being laid in July of 42.
		It was launched September of 42.
		Went into dry dock for 90 days at the Philadelphia Navy Yard.
		It was actually built up at the Newark shipbuilding yards at Kearney, New Jersey, Kearney and Newark.
		And there was 90 days approximately in dry dock getting the heavy equipment put in.
		But Van Neumann went to the drawing boards, picked the number, which is DE-173.
		It was not commissioned at that time and had no name.
		And said, leave gun turret number two unfinished and a certain part of the interior open to put some very heavy equipment in it, which is the way they left the ship.
		And then when in dry dock, they installed the two very large alternators, 75 kVA each.
unidentified		Wow.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Very large electric drive motor, 750 horsepower.
		Gear boxes, a 8-megawatt diesel-electric power generator, because ship's power was totally inadequate for handling the requirements for the system, at least at that point.
		So they had their own separate power system.
		And all this had to be put in the hold, and then, of course, there was some other heavy equipment.
		And that was in there.
		They finally took it out of dry dock, took the ship under its own power to the Philadelphia Navy Yard's back section, where they outfitted the rest of the electronics, a special antenna, the four strange conically shaped coils which Tesla designed to put on the deck for the rotating magnetic field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four Tesla coils.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, actually of a very unusual design.
		It was a primary only, and it was tapered.
		It was about 18 inches across at the top.
		Single turned, copper tubing, about an inch and three quarters in diameter.
		Hollow and liquid-cooled.
		At the base, it stood just slightly over six foot high.
		And at the base, it fanned out.
		It was a linear taper, but it fanned out to over three feet, actually about four feet.
		And the power feeds were at the top and the bottom.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that really was conical shapes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was.
		Tesla liked to design all of his transformers or his coils in a conical shape.
		He said they were more efficient that way.
		I don't think anybody's been able to prove it yet that he was right or wrong.
		But today it's much more convenient to wind coils in a more linear fashion that lends itself to machinery, but that's beside the point.
		All of that stuff had to be put on the elder.
		It's a control panel, the control room, and the basic master oscillator, the master pulse generator, a special piece of equipment called a zero time reference generator.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The master oscillator, do you mean there for RF?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, for RF, and actually when they divided it down, it was also used for the frequency control of the rotating magnetic field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so you were still at 160 megahertz, or had there been a change?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Nope, there was no change.
		The RF exciter, which was a separate unit, was at 160, slightly under 160 megs, but rounded numbers 160.
		And it had the basic RF oscillator generator.
		It had a first-level driver.
		This went into a secondary driver exciter, which put out 10 KW.
		And then that went to a final stage transmitter.
		We recovered most of the earlier equipment from various salvage operations over the years.
		That's Preston Nichols has.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, but not the final stage.
		We've never been able to find those.
		They put out 2 megawatts CW rating at 160 megs.
		We don't know what they had for that because that was, in our view and Preston's view, beyond the state of the art at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not only was I think it beyond the state of the art, but that much RF in a close field rotating minus all these other things would be biologically quite dangerous.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely correct.
		And that, of course, is what we proved, among other things, later.
		Tesla was afraid of this.
		He knew this would be the case.
		Van Neumann did not consider this at first a problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I wanted to ask you, Van Neumann, when he took over the project, what was his attitude like?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was he totally gung-ho on this thing?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, he was.
		He said, well, now I'm in charge.
		Now I'm going to take a thorough look at this.
		Now I'm going to make some changes and put in my own idea of the system, namely a pulsed system, 10% duty cycle, transmitter outputs.
		While they were rated at 2 megawatts each CW, he put in boosters above what Tesla had.
		Tesla was half a megawatt with the analog system, and he put in a transmitter that was capable of 2 megawatts CW each.
		And pulse that could go theoretically to much higher power.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You begin to pulse something, and the duty cycle goes down, and you get a whole lot more output.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		He was running at approximately 8 megawatts pulse power per transmitter output.
		And they never pushed it beyond that.
		That was already much too high for the human element.
		And of course, the magnetic field was being pumped by two 75 kV alternators, which were also pulsed.
		And due to the mass inertia effects of these huge humongous cores, they could pump much more power out on a pulsed basis than CW.
		This has been, of course, the principle they've used in certain Navy equipment over the years.
		The rotating mechanical mass has stored energy.
		And consequently, you can extract the mechanical energy in electrical form under a pulsed basis for a period of time.
		So the current level was enormous.
		Four coils were driven.
		They had very strange windings on those generators.
		I won't go into that particularly.
		But the whole system had to be put together and tested piecemeal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask another question?
		The RF output, Al, was it fed to what?
		Dipoles, rotating dipoles, or what?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was fed to a very special quadratase antenna, which was designed by G. Townsend Brown, who figured in the background of this project off and on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quadraphase.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Quadraphase.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm familiar.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Quadrophase.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That means the antenna had four segments, each one of which was driven by one transmitter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And what it did was, because of the phasing of the power output of those transmitters, even though they were pulsed, you produced electrically a rotating field, and you will produce in the antenna from its actual RF output a rotating field also.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure, absolutely.
		So you've got a gigantic RF and a gigantic electric and magnetic field all rotating together.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have any memory of what the ratio of rotations was?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		As I said, it was pi over 2 radians.
		That means actually, in essence, it took 4 seconds for the magnetic field to rotate 360 degrees.
		And the RF field was pi radians per second, which meant it took 2 seconds for the electric field to rotate 360 degrees.
		So the electric field rotated at twice the speed of the magnetic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So all of this was up on deck, right?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They were buried down below.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Buried down below.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The coils were on deck, and the antenna was on deck, and there was a special control room which Duncan and I ran the equipment from, because in those days there were no computers, everything was manually operated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were in the control room.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		By this time, you were way up to speed by the time they were really ready for the test.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Very much so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You knew exactly what you were going to do, how you were going to do it, and the sequence in which everything was going to be turned on.
		Correct.
		So how many human beings, men, were on this ship at the time of the test?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		At the time of the test, there was a total of 25 personnel, including Duncan and I. There were 10 officers and 15 enlisted, which they could put normally, the normal complement was 150 personnel, but for the actual test in the Philadelphia Harbor, they only wanted a skeleton crew.
		And some of those Navy personnel enlisted and were on deck as observers, and the rest were below deck, shielded by the steel.
		And Duncan and I, of course, were in a control room, which was totally shielded by steel, so we were not exposed to the direct field effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were several levels of steel protected?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		At least one, rather heavy, because on the deck the ship with reinforced steel as a protection against shellfire and the normal complement of war protection.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Consequently, it was well shielded magnetically and electrically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where was the ship positioned when they began the test, Al?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was just in the harbor?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was in the harbor about six miles downstream from the actual Navy Yard.
		There was a place in the harbor called Tunicum Island, which was about six miles down.
		You can find it on any map of Philadelphia in that area.
		And that's where they conducted the test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So they got it away from the dock.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They must have been a little unsure of the size of the field that would be created.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
		That is true.
		And they went out to a wider section of the river, the Delaware River.
		And at that time, in 1943, of course, where they were downstream, there was almost no buildings, no homes, not much in the way of habitation.
		It was rather wide open in those days, unlike today.
		what did they have in the way of of observers in other words of as well as Captain Harrison for the Navy, who was controlling the tests.
		And there was only one observer ship at that point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One observer ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so they had, I'm sure, cameras and radar at that point?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
		By that point, radar was well developed, and that was one of the primary concerns.
		Will it be not only invisible to the eye and to camera, but will it be invisible to radar?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you were down in the control room, I assume, in radio contact with them?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They just gave you a go-ahead and said, all right?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They gave us a go-ahead at a specified time and proceed with the test, so we had to turn the equipment on and wait to see.
		Of course, we didn't see what the results were, but on the observer ship they did.
		Ship became completely invisible for about 20 minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you describe the procedure you went through to crank this thing up?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, there were several pieces of equipment we had to turn on and sequence and bring the power level up on the generators, which was for the magnetic field rather slowly.
		And when everything was up to a proper level, then what happened to those who were viewing it from the carrier deck, which you saw this very strange rotating field, sort of glistening.
		It's hard to describe exactly, but you saw this thing rotating, and the next thing you know, the ship fades out, and you don't see anything.
		Except the water line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, on a hot summer day when you're looking down a road, it looks like you're seeing water and you're seeing a little ripple effect coming up.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was it like that in the beginning before the actual disappearance?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was similar to that.
		However, the ship didn't show exactly a glimmering effect.
		It showed sort of a, as was described to us, showed a sort of wavering of the image.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wavering.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was like you were looking through a hot field that was moving.
		And then you saw this rotating field effect, which was sort of like a beam of light.
		And all of a sudden, the whole thing just sort of faded out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I assume on radar as well?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The radar image weakened and then disappeared.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They were happy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so there you were in the control room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How long did you keep all this equipment and the fields running?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Just about 20 minutes when we had orders to shut the equipment down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Were these orders issued prior?
		What I'm getting at here is, in the condition that you were in, disappeared.
		Were you able to communicate with them, or did you have orders to, you know, in 20 minutes, shut the door?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We had orders in advance as to the profile of the test, as to how we were to proceed, and there was to be about 20 minutes.
		And they were hoping they would be able to communicate with us by radio for an actual shutdown.
		As a matter of fact, they made the attempt to communicate with us, but as I remember now, we didn't get much of any communication through because that type of field barrier is a barrier to RF communications.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I bet you were creating more noise across every frequency.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We were.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure we were.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So it might have been that.
		And one has to wonder whether you were in a place where even with no interference, communication would have been possible.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It would not have been normally possible with the type of equipment we were using then.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Today, there are vastly different communication approaches which would work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We shut it down, and of course, when the equipment was down, we had the orders to return to the dock side in the Navy yard, which we did.
		And it was at that point, when we went back there, that we found that we had a real problem.
		Just as Tesla had suspected would be the case, those sailors on deck who were observers were totally sick, totally nauseous, mentally out of it.
		They were discombuberated and couldn't even think straight, much less walk straight.
		They were quite sick in plain language.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There was nobody, I take it, you know, in the movie, the Philadelphia Experiment, they showed people actually buried in decks and horrible things.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That came in the second test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the second test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in this first test, there were definite biological severe effects that were noted.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And of course, Van Neumann then was tearing his hair out, what was left of it.
		And Cominescence was seeing, we've got a problem.
		And they went to the Navy and says, I need time to study this and find a way to solve it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the Navy probably said, we don't have time, buddy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our ships are going down.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They didn't say that initially.
		In fact, Van Neumann had already anticipated this problem because Duncan and I kept telling Van Neumann that Tesla insisted there was going to be a personnel problem.
		He didn't want to hear about it around March of 1943.
		But by June of 43, he had already considered the problem and tried to institute a change in the structure of the field, hoping that it would prevent personnel problems.
		And the additional generator he had installed never worked properly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		I want to ask you about the condition of those sailors and how they were and whether they were treated and a lot more about it.
		So hold on.
		My guest is Al Bielek, the subject, the Philadelphia Experiment.
unidentified		The Experiment
		We'll be right back.
		Call Art Bell, toll three.
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		1-800-618-8255.
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		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and I have a lot of people to thank.
		Al Belick, who has agreed to stay on another hour.
		And I want to thank Sean David Morton, who has agreed to come on an hour late.
		Sean has supplied us with a photograph that is a worldwide exclusive.
		That purports to be the interview of an alien creature at Area 51, a film, a picture snapped from a film smuggled out of, allegedly, Area 51.
		And by the way, I briefly, of course, talked a few moments ago to Sean David Morton, who investigated every detail of the story Al Bilik is now telling you and has confirmed these things.
		He'll tell you about it as he comes on at 2 o'clock Pacific time.
		Meantime, we're back to Al Bilik in a moment.
		And I'm going to ask him about the treatment of those sailors who came back with what sounds like rather severe biological damage.
		You are listening to one of the last survivors of the Philadelphia experiment.
		The experiment to make a ship invisible.
		He's Al Bielick, and here he is once again.
		Al, before we move on to the second tragic experiment with Eldridge, I'm a little curious.
		These men who were damaged psychologically, mentally confused, what became of them?
		Did they get treated?
		Were they hospitalized?
		Did they end up in mental institutions?
		Do you have any idea?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they were hospitalized and they were treated.
		There was a man, an officer who was in charge of the medical aspects of this experiment, a Dr. Oscar Otto Schneider.
		There's a long story about him I can't go fully into at this point.
		I met his son years ago, before his son was done in, shall we say, and acquired a great deal Of additional information.
		He was a medical officer, and he was for eight years after the tragic part of the experiment.
		And that, of course, elicited some very interesting information.
		Since I have the correspondence, I can prove absolutely that the physical aspects of that experiment and the aftermath from test two.
		But be that as it may, yes, they would treat it.
		And, of course, the Navy said to Dr. Van Neumann, not to worry, we have another crew for you.
		Because they had a selected experimental crew that had gone throughout the Navy to get these volunteers, about 33 enlisted men and 10 officers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess then these men were listed as casualties of war.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		It was a war on, and they were listed as casualties of war.
		Now, none of those in the first test died.
		That is, as a result of the test.
		They were not hit that hard.
		The second test was totally different.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, after the first test, obviously at this point, Van Neumann knows there's severe biological danger, so he begins to tinker a little bit, trying to figure out how, I guess, to achieve the effect without hurting people.
		What does he try to do?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't think he had any specific approach in mind at that point.
		He went to the Navy and says, I need time to study this problem to find a solution.
		He says, we have a very serious problem.
		The Navy did not give any answer for about a week.
		And then they come back to him, to us, to everyone, and say, you have a drop-dead test date of the 12th of August, 1943.
		Complete the test by then or forget it.
		Well, we never could figure out where that came from and why this drop-dead date.
		This was an engineering test, so to speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And I asked Hal Boyne Sr., who I knew quite well at that time, I said, where did this come from?
		He said, well, I'll see what I can find out.
		It came from Admiral King, who was then CNO, Chief of Naval Operations, which meant that he was in charge of the general operations of the entire fleet throughout the entire theaters of war.
		Now, why would a man in his position be concerned about an engineering test?
		It made no sense to us.
		I've only much later found out what it was all about, and that would take perhaps more time even than the three hours.
		But in any case, we were stuck with that test date, so we worked around the clock.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask about your thinking at that time?
		Van Eumann, obviously, knew about the biological damage.
		I guess you knew.
		You shut off the equipment.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes, we knew about the biological damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We saw it ourselves.
		So what sort of things were rattling about in your head as you saw another big test coming?
		Were you scared for yourself?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We were not at that point afraid of the consequences.
		We figured there was an engineering solution.
		But when we were hit with this drop-dead date, then we did become concerned.
		In fact, I could say conclusively that three days before the final test of the 12th, well, it wasn't the final test, but the test of the 12th August, that many of the crew members had this gut feeling that something was drastically wrong.
		I did.
		Duncan did.
		And one of the other crew members, who, believe it or not, in a later incarnation wound up as my roommate in Atlantis and is now dead also, but he, under certain very peculiar circumstances, always revisiting the scene of the crime, so to speak, recalled the night of 9 August 1943 in a diner in Philadelphia where we have to stop.
		This was about two years ago.
		The whole sequence, how terribly worried he was that night, and I was there with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As you were approaching this final test, what changes were made from the first test?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The only real change was made from the first test was that the Navy said we don't need optical invisibility.
		In fact, we don't even want it.
		Because in those days, there were no computers, there was no lower-end, no shorn, there were no satellites.
		And if the ship was optically invisible, it was possible at night for one ship to ram another if you couldn't see where it was.
		They were only concerned about blocking out the enemy radar.
		So they relaxed the requirement.
		They knew they could do it, but they relaxed the requirements.
		And this was not a great deal of help.
		So here was Van Neumann and the rest of us toiling around the clock, trying to come up with an answer, facing a deadline date of 12 August.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so what I'm asking you about really are, you say they changed the requirements or what you had to meet, but what did you guys do technically as you were racing toward this date?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		There wasn't really much we could do because there was no basic change you could make in the approach which would solve the problem.
		Theoretically, if you were to solve this problem, they would have had to use a very different approach in the first place.
		Very briefly, view technical listeners, what we had was a donut field which was open in the center, and the ship sat in the center.
		This meant that the ship was open to any other type of field that might be impinged from the outside, which was of concern on the 12 August test.
		If they had gone the more complex approach, which was suggested back originally, of an oblate spheroid, which means a totally enclosed field, nothing could have hit it from the outside.
		They could have done various things to protect the personnel more readily than they could with a donut field.
		But the approach was made to use the donut or torus field because it was a simpler approach and easier to implement.
		And nobody had any idea at that time of what the possible consequences would be of the 12-Ovis test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at this point, the Navy is saying they don't care about optical invisibility.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So presumably to not have optical invisibility and yet still have radar invisibility, you would imagine some sort of significant technical modification would have been attempted.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The only thing they did was to reduce somewhat the angle of advance, the angle of phase shift in the time field.
		Now, this gets into very complex math, but basically, we were shifting the time field phase-wise in the first test about 60 degrees, which gave us optical invisibility, but the ship was still physically here in our domain.
		If you relax it slightly, you can see the ship through a very strange haze, but it is still radar invisible at about a 45-degree phase shift.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So, in other words, radar invisibility would occur with this field prior to optical invisibility.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got you.
		I've got you.
		All right, so 12 August comes.
		Now you've got the Eldridge with how many people aboard?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The same number.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was about 25.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About 25.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Most of them on deck?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No.
		There was only approximately six or eight people, as I remember now.
		There was about eight people on deck, and the rest were below deck.
		Duncan and I were in the control room.
		Of course, there was a captain on board the ship who took the ship down to its station for the test, and then he removed himself from the bridge and went down below where it was safer.
		And for the final test, we had three observer ships, a carrier with the same personnel on board watching the test, a merchant ship known as the SS Furyasev, and a Coast Guard cutter.
		One thing of note was the strange man, Carlos Miguelnda, who turns up in many of the related stories later.
		His real name was Carl Allen, and he was a Navy officer, and he was stationed on the SS Furyase, a little further away for the tests.
		The Merchant Marine, of course, expected all this equipment to work properly, and they had many spare sets built up already, so they could all be installed on the ships and hopefully provide almost immediate coverage and protection.
		So that way we were set up for the final test, and of course we were given the orders to proceed with the test.
		And there was one minor change made in the control room.
		We had direct access to two-way radio in the control room instead of through a, shall we say, a relay link, which was the case for the first test.
		We turned everything on in the same procedure and to the observer ships it appeared for the first minute, actually up to about 70 seconds, that everything was going as planned.
		Namely, they had radar invisibility, but they could still see the ship through a strange sort of greenish haze.
		They could also see a very large waterline, much larger than the ship.
		And that, of course, was the same as in the first test.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, you'd created a gigantic field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How much bigger was the field than the ship?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was actually about three times the size of the ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So did it really need to be that big?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Approaches since then as to the engineering and theoretical aspects have changed drastically.
		But of course, the later approaches I was not privy to.
		I only know that they did solve the problem.
		But this is ahead of our story.
		So there it was, and all of a sudden there was a blue flash of light.
		The ship vanished.
		The water line vanished.
		And there was nothing but just calm bay water there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just like that?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Just like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A blue flash.
		The water line that was invisible vanished.
		The ship gone.
		Just flat gone?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		And of course, they could not raise it on radio.
		They attempted to do so.
		The ship was gone about four hours.
		Of course, Veneer was biting his fingernails, so to speak, and so was everybody else, including Captain Harrison and all the other scientific personnel watching it.
		They didn't know what to do, so they sat there and the carrier and the other ships, and they waited.
		It was nearly four hours later, the ship returned to the same spot where it had apparently left.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Four hours.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		four hours, and with the same kind of flash and then...
unidentified		My God.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And there it was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Now, let's go back to you in the control room.
		You start throwing the switches.
		And what happened to you, Al?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, Duncan and I were there.
		Everything appeared normal at first for about 30 seconds.
		Then we started to see some strange effects.
		The fuel coils of these two huge alternators were driven by tubes, 3,000 6L6s.
		If anyone knows what a 6L6 is in the old G version.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Al, I know.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		A lot of tubes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm a ham operator, Al, and the first ham transmitter I built was a 6AG7 driving a 6L6.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so I can imagine three, my God, 3,000 6L6.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they generated a little of heat and a lot of light.
		The first thing we noticed is the light was no longer even.
		It was sort of flickering at a slow rate.
		It was changing illumination level.
		He said, what the blazes is this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, what light are you talking about?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The light directly out of the tubes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, these were 6L6 glass tubes?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they were glass, the OGs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so you began to see a glow about them.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And they flickering the level of illumination coming from the heaters.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And then the next thing that happens in the control room, we start to get what appeared to be high voltage arcover, and there was no high voltage equipment in the control room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So do you remember offhand?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		6L6, of course, by its designation, took 6 volts of filament.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		6.3 volts, heater voltage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		6.3, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And 3,000 of them used a hell of a lot of current.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Amen.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of current.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you began to notice this glow and then an arc.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Some kind of a strange arcover, which I don't know how I can define as more or less an etheric type of energy arcover.
		It was not electrical, but it appeared at first to be electrical.
		And there was no electrical equipment capable of generating such high voltage in the control room.
		Well, with this going on, we turned to the radio, and of course we got nothing but hiss and static.
		We had no way of knowing at that point that we were no longer sitting in the harbor, but we couldn't get anyone on the radio.
		So we said, well, this thing is getting worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you have instructions, by the way, if anything goes wrong?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		shut this sucker down right away or what?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it was up to our discretion to shut it down if we had to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No communication with anybody up on deck?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No, not at this point.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We were in a closed and locked control room.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So we decided it's time to shut the equipment off.
		So we went for the main power control handles, which were essentially very large knife switches.
		And we couldn't budge them.
		We couldn't move them.
		We couldn't shut the power off.
		And this condition was getting worse, so we decided it's time to get out of this control room.
		We opened the bulkhead door, ran out on deck.
		And nobody was buried in the deck at that point, but everybody was milling around in a very strange manner.
		And at that point, Duncan and I got the bright idea.
		Let's jump overboard.
		This condition is hopeless.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, abandoned ship.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Abandoned ship.
		Yeah, we didn't care what anybody else was doing.
		We decided to abandon ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you remember when you went up on deck?
		Obviously, this field was all around you.
		What did it look like on deck?
		You saw the men.
		They were standing or walking or still alive.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		and what did the air and the water and the The deck of the ship was sort of hazy, a slightly hazy green look.
		And as I found out later, that color of green is characteristic of ozone or oxygen, particularly ozone.
		And beyond the railing of the ship, you could see quite clearly on the ship, but beyond the railing of the ship, you could see nothing.
		Violent gray haze.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You couldn't see water?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Couldn't see water.
		We couldn't see the shoreline.
		We couldn't see anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Without being able to see the water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, I understand the conditions you were in at that point were dramatic and horrid.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But boy, what a calculated risk to jump into what seemed to be at that point an abyss.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Which is exactly what we did.
		We never hit the water.
		And it was, in a certain sense, an abyss.
		The feeling, however, was much more like falling down an elevator shaft that had no bottom.
		We never hit anything.
		We just kept falling in a panic mode, panic feeling.
		We were within sight of each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was going to ask.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You could see each other?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you were apparently falling into what, blackness or mist or?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		into a strange hazy mist with all kinds of strange boiling lights and that sort of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you could really see each other and you were just sort of Absolutely.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So this went on for a period of time.
		Subjectively, we could only estimate the time as perhaps about two minutes, and that's strictly a subjective estimate.
		And the next thing we know, we were landing and standing on our feet in some kind of a place.
		It was night.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A gentle landing, a crash?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was a gentle landing.
		And there was a chain-link fence immediately to our back, which we recognized as a military-style fence.
		Suddenly, we were illuminated from overhead with a blinding searchlight.
		It was on a helicopter, but we didn't know what a helicopter was because in 43, Sikorsky and others were still working on perfecting them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		God, that's right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And then suddenly MPs come out of someplace and grab us and escort us to a building.
		The doors are open for us.
		We go in the building, and we're pushed down an elevator along with the MPs.
		We go down several levels, and the elevator door opens.
		And we look and we see military personnel.
		We see all kinds of strange equipment.
		And we see one elderly civilian walking towards us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The elderly civilian?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, with almost no hair on him, white hair.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		He introduces himself to us and says, gentlemen, I've been waiting for you.
unidentified		I'm Dr. John von Neumann.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So we look at him and says, you're who?
		He says, I'm Dr. John von Neumann.
		I said, you couldn't be.
		We just left him about an hour or so ago.
		He's a much younger man.
		He looked at us a little bit sternly and in his typical broke and said, gentlemen, I am the same Dr. Von Neumann you knew in 1943.
		This is 1943.
		It's 1983 and you're at Montauk, Long Island.
		Welcome or something to that effect.
		Well, we didn't believe him.
		We thought he was a bit off his rocker, whoever he was.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, of course.
		All right, that's a great place for a cliffhanger.
		Al, hold on, relax, grab a cup of something.
		We'll be back to you shortly.
		You're listening to what I think is a historic interview.
		He's about 70 now, venerable.
		Al Belick.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		CBC.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the Wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One of the last surviving participants in the Philadelphia experiment.
		Al Bilik is my guest.
		Al's now about 70, and I'm describing him as venerable.
		We'll find out when we bring him back here in a moment whether that's an ooky description.
		Listen, I've got to announce that we pushed back the appearance of Sean David Morton By his and with his permission, by one hour.
		However, I want you to use that hour wisely.
		Those of you with internet capability, you've got a mission right now.
		Sean David Morton earlier in the day sent me a photograph snappied that is taken from a videotape allegedly smuggled out of Area 51.
		What's on the videotape?
		How about the interrogation of a real alien?
		That's what's on the videotape.
		And that's what's in the photograph.
		Obviously not as good quality as we would like it to be, but certainly good enough that there is no mistaking what you're looking at.
		It is a worldwide exclusive provided to us by Sean David Morton, and I should warn you it is the sole property of Rocket Home Video, may not be downloaded, reproduced in any form other than the one now on the Art Bell website, with exclusive permission given from Rocket Video and arranged by Sean Morton, who you're going to be hearing from in about an hour.
		So it's copyrighted, but I want you to see it.
		He wants you to see it.
		Nobody has ever seen it before.
		You will find it at www.artbell.com www.artbell.com The things we get our hands on, huh?
		All right, once again, back to Al Belick.
		Al, would it be proper to refer to you as venerable?
unidentified		Well, if you wish, I don't particularly care one way or the other.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Because actually, venerable means somebody that's quite old, and if you consider the fact that I'm essentially 70 as Al Belick plus 30 years as Ed Cameron, that puts me up in the category of being 100, so maybe that's venerable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's pretty venerable.
		All right.
		So we left off at a very critical moment.
		The experiment was underway.
		You jumped off the ship, something I'm not sure I would have done.
		You know, what went through your mind at that point?
		I mean, if I can ask, what made you jump?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good question.
		Going back and looking at it now, I cannot come up with any reasonable excuse why Duncan and I, he was the one that sort of moved that direction first, but why we both had the same idea at the same moment is a very good question.
		I've never been able to come up with a satisfactory answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Panic, shock, all of the above, I suppose, yeah.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Both or all of the above.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Plus, once you were on deck, Al, were you at that point not being, or were you being subjected to the same sort of biologically disruptive field?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		As soon as we left the control room, we were subjected to the same field.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So all this damn stuff, the equipment, the rotating R fields, and all of it was still going.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, you know what?
		That might account for your lack of specific memory with regard to why you jumped.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Could well be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so the two of you jumped.
		You went through this abyss.
		You fell and fell and fell and fell.
		Landed on your feet near a military base.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		military base channeling fence and he's picky up took you are in front of a That was after we went down the elevator shaft, an elevator several levels to this underground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And we were approached by this elderly civilian who introduced himself as Dr. John von Neumann.
		And we didn't believe him.
		He says, well, you're in no longer 1943 or 1983.
		And in essence, he had come the hard way and was 40 years older.
		And we had arrived quickly and were not 40 years older.
		But we didn't believe him.
		But nevertheless, they gave us the cook's tour of the underground.
		We saw all kinds of modern electronic equipment like IBM 360 and 370 computers, which did not exist in 1943.
		The hard disk drives, tape drives, large screen video displays, graphic displays.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Your eyes must have been wide open.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they were.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And after we got done with that tour, they sat us down in front of a TV set, large-screen color TV, which of course didn't exist in 1943.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What was that like, seeing that?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, that was rather interesting because we watched this over several hours discussions about man and the moon, the Cold War, views of modern cities with their freeways and their incredible traffic jams.
		But the thing that really got to us was one of the commercials, in which they were saying, on your next vacation trip to Hawaii, why not fly with us on our 747 jet?
		And then they show a picture of a 747 jet.
		Well, to somebody in this era, that doesn't mean anything.
		But to somebody from 1943, we look at this and say, what the hell is that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
		Of course, my God, you must have been.
		Let me ask you, during this time, were you okay biologically?
		Do you think you were not affected?
		Do you think you were taking all this in accurately?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we were taking it in accurately.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Biologically, we were okay at that point because we hadn't been exposed to the fields long enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you just came up out of the deck, and how long were you on deck before you jumped?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so your exposure was very small compared to everybody else.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you're seeing God, 746.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So at this point, we said, well, maybe the old man is right.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Maybe we are in 1983.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, daylight, we arrived at about 2 a.m. in the morning, and we didn't know where or when.
		We were informed that it was the 12th of August, 1983.
		And with the daylight hours, we did get a small tour of the upstairs, above surface base, but not long.
		We were not allowed off base, and then Dr. Van Neumann put it to us, he says, we got a real problem, gentlemen.
		We can shut off our equipment here, but we can't control what's going on in the Eldridge.
		So the Eldridge is in hyperspace.
		You jumped off of it and arrived here.
		How we don't know.
		But you've got to go back to the Eldridge and shut off the equipment so it can return to its normal location.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why did he think that you could get back to the Eldridge?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll have to finish the statement.
		He said, the problem is there is a huge hyperspace bubble which the ship is in and it's growing.
		The equipment has to be shut off.
		And he says, I said to him, he says, well, that's just fine.
		How are we supposed to get back there?
		He says, that's no problem.
		We can send you there.
		He says, here at Montauk, we have complete control over space and time.
		We can send you anywhere as we want at any time we want.
		And they did.
		They sent us back to the decks of the Eldritch with instructions, destroy the equipment if you have to, but get it shut off.
		He said, the ship will return to the harbor in 43, but you must destroy the equipment if necessary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Al, may I ask why it had to be you and why it had, you and your partner?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's a very good question, because while we were essentially responsible for that equipment, there were two other people that jumped off the ship and instantly disintegrated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disintegrated.
		Disintegrated?
		They disintegrated.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did they?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		When you jumped through those fields, and you were in hyperspace, there is nothing to hold the body together.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Why we held together is still a mystery.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder if some of that was controlled from Montauk somehow.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Possible.
		It's also possible it was controlled from another still higher source.
		One can speculate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's about all, yeah.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so for some reason, though, it had to be you that went back.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		So they sent us back to the Eldridge, and we found some axes and with heavy insulated gloves on because you went by that too fast.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They sent you back to the Eldridge.
		Obviously, you had to be able to get a look at some of what they had in 1983, equipment-wise, to be able to accomplish that.
		What did you see?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		What did we see?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Modern computers, hard disk drives, all kinds of other equipment.
		We saw, of course, in the other underground sections, very large, heavy electronic equipment, which was totally beyond our comprehension at that point.
		And, of course, this is part of the operating hardware from Montauk for the time tunnels.
		They had solved the problems of travel through space and time simultaneously, which we did not understand at that point.
		And all of that equipment, it was levels of it all over the place, very, very high pressure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You got to see a lot of stuff you probably didn't understand at that time.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right, we did not understand it at that time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what did they do?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sit you in a chair?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		We're set up.
		They turned the equipment on.
		The tunnel appeared out of nowhere as in a wall and said, well, you just walk into that and you'll wind up back in the Eldridge.
		And we did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you did.
		And so there you were back on the Eldridge.
		Where did you end up on the Eldridge?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		On the deck.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On the deck.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We then went in the control room, found access, and smashed equipment until the generator started to wind down.
		At that point, we knew it was over.
		So we came back out on deck, and then when we saw two sailors buried in the steel deck, two more in the bulkhead upright.
		One of them was our younger brother, Jim, who had enlisted in the Navy after Pearl Harbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alive?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They were still alive, but dying.
		When you consider that their bodies, flesh and blood, was intermingled with the steel of the decks, there's nothing you can do for them.
		It's a horrible death.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I wonder how long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's a gruesome question to ask, but I wonder how long it takes a person.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		People that are literally chopped in half live for some period of time, so how long depended on how thoroughly they were buried in the steel.
		The two on the deck were face down, and the body was partially full length in the steel.
		They didn't live more than two minutes, if that.
		Jim, who had his head and shoulders out, lived a little longer.
		I went over and tried to, he was crying.
		I went over and tried to comfort him.
		Duncan took one look at this and everything else, and he headed for the rail.
		The fields were still around the ship.
		You still couldn't see the harbor.
		He jumped overboard and wound up back in the future in 1982 or 83.
		We don't know where, but back at Montauk.
		And to make a long story short, he essentially died there, but before he did, they transferred his soul into another body because they had complete control over time and time communication.
		They went back to father and says, get busy and make another son.
		We can't allow him to die, and he is dying.
		So Duncan was reborn into another body in 1951.
		That's another little separate story in itself.
		We've been able to prove this under hypnosis as to what exactly happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, Al, when I first heard this long ago, I thought it sounded hokey, loony, hokey, all of that.
		But you know, in recent months, and I mean months, there's been talk of a soul catcher, which is virtually the ability to take the mind of a person and download it to another mind or another body.
		And as we all know, a cloning is now possible.
		Yes.
		Maybe it's been possible a long time.
		So what you're suggesting actually could be.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And as we have shown, Preston did under hypnosis with Duncan, been the current Duncan.
		Yes, he had the buried memories of being part of the Photog experiment.
		Eventually came out under hypnosis.
		Any case, he disappeared.
		I remained behind.
		and of course the fields eventually collapsed and we were back in the harbor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, who was it?
		Yes.
		But even after being smashed, the fields persisted for some time.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		About two minutes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		About two minutes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Enough for him to jump overboard and be re-transported back to the future.
		I say two minutes.
		It was approximate.
		We didn't have a stopwatch to measure it.
		It might have been longer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The field was probably radically changing during that two minutes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So, of course, a boarding party came on board, took a look at this, sent a second boarding party to take the ship back into its berth.
		And then, of course, we had a four-day-long board of inquiry.
		I gave my report.
		They didn't believe me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They didn't believe you?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		No.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		They didn't believe what I told them about the trip into the future and all that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
unidentified		Well, certainly they believed the damage to the ship.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It was superficial, but nevertheless.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the men.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Part of the antenna was missing.
		What happened to the men in the steel was quite obvious.
		Those otherwise on the deck were insane.
		Those below deck were all right because they were shielded by the heavy steel walls.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many lived?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Totally at that time, out of 25, it was about 20 who lived.
		No, it was less than that.
		It was about 18.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		18.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And eventually, of course, full quarantine was applied to all of us.
		Those who were insane went to the funny farms and essentially never came out alive.
		They died there.
		And others who were not ill were still under quarantine.
		I was under quarantine but not ill.
		And eventually I got von Neumann, Dr. Von Neumann, to arrange a marriage ceremony.
		Myself and my girlfriend, and the son was born in February of 1944.
		In any case, I remained, but the Navy, they decided after all of this they didn't believe me.
		And Von Neumann, of course, made the decision.
		They say, well, what you say is very interesting, but I don't really believe it.
		You're going to have to prove it.
		I said, oh, just I'm going to do that.
		He says, I'll build a time machine.
		I said, it's hardly any different technology than what we've already been using.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		And I said, you're going to go back to the future, and you're going to bring back proof for me.
		Well, I do not know how he calibrated it, but I did go back several times, and finally I came back.
		The final piece to resist for him was a life magazine.
		What specific issue I don't recall.
		Why it was of importance to him, I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell me any about that time travel that you did?
		It was by then refined.
		In what way did it differ than what you had done, the sort of blunder bus experiment you did with the Eldridge?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		What was different was that it was specifically tuned to send a person or an object through time, and how we calibrated it to come out in the right era, I don't know.
		But it was by Neumann's design, and it was the first crude attempt at a true time machine, and it worked.
		And after he had his proof, he abandoned that, and of course went on to the Los Alamos project, the bomb project, in October of 43, intermittently from that point on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what you're telling me is we have and have had time travel for a long time.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We have indeed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Al, hold tight.
		We'll be right back to you.
		Time travel and the details.
		This is CBC.
		Good morning.
unidentified		I see trees of green, red roses too.
		I see them bloom for me and you.
		And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		I see skies of blue and clouds of white, the bright blessed day.
		The dark say goodnight and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
		Art Bell toll-free west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 1-800-618-8255 East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033 1-800-825-5033 This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Art Bell.
		My guest is Al Bielick, a survivor of the Philadelphia Experiment.
		and he'll be back in a moment.
		All right, back now to Al Bielick in Atlanta, Georgia.
		Al, are you there?
		I'm still here.
		This is some kind of story, Al.
		How do you find that people normally react?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I first started presenting my story, and without some of the details I have now, back in 1989, there was a great deal of skepticism, though I did get press coverage in Phoenix, Arizona.
		At that time, out of an audience of 200, about three people raised their hands.
		I asked the question, how many have heard of the Philadelphia experiment?
		Today, it's the reverse.
		About three people out of an audience of 200 or 300 have not heard about it.
		There's been a mass education process.
		It's gone on for years.
		And today, there is little skepticism except for some of the details.
		At that time, many people were skeptical of the entire Project.
		And for that matter, I might say in the scientific community, I still have a number of detractors who don't believe it, or at least that's their official line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Al, here's a question for you: given the details, and you've given us a lot of very serious details this morning, could somebody with enough money and interest in doing it build a time machine?
unidentified		Yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the approach to building a time machine is much simpler than most people think.
		The Germans did it in 1943-44.
		We have done it somewhat accidentally, but with deliberate design after the war was over, when we inherited all of the German research, papers, material, and scientists who went to work at Brookhaven National Laboratories in 1947 to replicate a lot of the work that was done in Germany.
		But to continue with my story, in July of 1944, von Neumann asked the Navy if I could be transferred up there to work with him on the bomb project at Los Alamos.
		The Navy was happy to do it.
		So in July of 1944, I was there until July of 1947, actually July 4th of 1947.
		And during that time, I wrote technical reports, gave what assistance I could.
		And eventually, when the war ended, the Navy, as the last assignment I had up there, asked me to write a technical classified report of the history and development of the atomic bomb and gave me full authorized access to the Black Vault, as they called it, which was where they kept all of the most secret projects that they wanted to bury from the eyes of anyone else in the United States, because very few people knew until the war was over that Los Alamos existed, much less Manhattan Engineering Project, etc.
		I had access to that vault, and I started to write my report.
		And then I started to discover a few things which bothered me.
		First of all, I found out that the real history of the atomic bomb goes back much further than the 30s and the theoretical research in the 30s and the 40s.
unidentified		Oh.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It goes back to about 8,000 years ago.
		The records out of the Vitas.
		They had atomic energy and atomic power 8,000 B.C. And those records were extant.
		The Germans found them.
		And eventually we inherited the German records.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're saying that actually what amounts to a prior civilization is what gave us atomic energy?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		In many respects, that's true.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We had to re-engineer it to our current technology and our current abilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		But that was the least of it.
		I got a little upset about that, but that didn't really bother anybody.
		Then I ran across another project which I blew my cork over, and that was the discovery of a project which is more secret than the atomic bomb, and that is Operation Southern Cross.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That, believe it or not, was Perfected Time Travel in 1936.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, now I can imagine you would blow your cork over that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, why in the hell would they put you through what they put you through?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Exactly what I said.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure you did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And how did they respond?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, I tell you, the whole hell broke loose.
		First of all, I had had an ongoing, I'm not going to name names on the air because it's not going to be a public condemnation of anyone.
		I will face these people privately, and I'll know who did me in and why.
		I had an ongoing discussion with a physicist who was transferred up there after the war ended.
		And at first it was friendly, then it became acrimonious, and eventually he considered me a threat to his career.
		But when I brought up the Operation Southern Cross, and the details of that are rather interesting, this is the first time I've talked publicly about it at all.
		In fact, I've only learned about it in detail about two, three weeks ago, it involved rediscovery of what was going on in the Bermuda Triangle.
		At the bottom of the ocean there in that area, there was a clump of specially built Atlantean crystal formation, goes back to Atlantis, and when the ship sits over it, standard ship of any kind, and is excited with the appropriate RF and magnetic frequencies of energy coming from that ship, it is transported through time.
		They found out how to control it.
		I do not know how or exactly when, but that became a means for time travel using a naval ship or a commercial ship.
		It actually is strictly restricted to Navy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what you're doing?
		You're going to stand the hair up on the back of a lot of necks out there because I had a young man.
		I had a young man on the program who described a time machine that he had built with similar technology to that which you're discussing right now.
		And he said that it was only affective, excuse me, at certain points on the Earth, much as you're describing right now.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		It's only at certain locations this system would work.
		And it had to be over some of the old Atlantean crystal formations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And the other thing, Al, that will stand here up on the back of next is that the entire description you've given us of how this was done, the electric, magnetic, gravitic, and RF fields, all of that technology, Al, is damn close to the technology that Bob Lazar and a lot of other people have described as propulsion systems in extraterrestrial craft.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course, there's been a lot of back engineering.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		that's a totally different story about engineering of captured craft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely, but the technology involved seems...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		There's no difference from some other planet out in space or some other galaxy or whether it's originated here.
		The basic cosmic principles are the same.
		The basic engineering principles are the same.
		It's merely the matter of how it's applied.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, after what happened to you to discover Operation Southern Cross, I'm surprised you haven't done a few people in, Al.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, they did me in.
		That was the excuse for getting rid of me.
		There were two people basically involved.
		And I was removed on July 4th, 47, from a picnic in front of my family.
		I was sent to Washington expecting a court-martial.
		That never concurred.
		I was then shipped to Fort Hero, which is on the eastern point of Long Island, the exact physical location of the current Montauk project, which is still operational.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Still operational?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And I was time transferred to 1983, whereupon a paterful von Neumann, who at that point was only a consultant, said, I don't like what they're going to do to you, but they're going to totally strip you of your memory as Edward Cameron, and they're going to age regress you and dump you back in another family in the past and hope you never remember any part of it.
		So they couldn't kill me because of my involvement in the time loop problems.
		Along with the same story is true for Duncan, and it turns out it's also true for Preston Nichols and some other people.
		If you've been heavily involved in time travel and time loops, you have to be kept alive until you're past the time period where you were involved, or at least past the 20-year limit after the Philadelphia experiment, which means August 12th, 2003.
		You have to be kept alive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're fairly confident you'll live until then.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Relatively so.
		What happens is they put me back in this other family.
		I grew up with Sal Baelik, knowing nothing whatever about my real past.
		The earliest memory was in 1927 at a Christmas party my parents, the Baelicks, were throwing, or whom I assumed were my parents.
		There were a lot of relatives and such.
		I remember that.
		There's a lot of detail I can't go into now, but during the 50s, the 60s, and the 70s, I had a passionate interest in the photo of the experiment, not knowing why.
		I worked with Ivan Sanderson when he was alive on this project.
		He couldn't dig any info out.
		And even though he was a naval officer from the British Intelligence Service, they wouldn't tell him any more than anyone else.
		But in any case, eventually, in January 1988, watching the movie The Philadelphia Experiment late one Saturday night, it all started to come back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Al, just a couple of phone calls.
		There's still such little time left, but I'd like to let a couple of people ask questions.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First time caller line, you're on the air with Al Bielick in Atlanta.
		Where are you, please?
		Hello there.
		Oh, wait a minute.
		Let me do this.
		Now you're on the air, I think.
		Hello there.
		Yes.
		Where are you, sir?
		Sioux Paul, South Dakota.
		Okay, go ahead.
unidentified		One question.
unidentified		How did that generator manage to run for 40 years?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		It didn't.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		You see, you have to look at not the time span we were jumping through, but the actual amount of time which was involved in the local area of that ship.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, the generator was only running for what, Alf, four hours?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Approximately four hours in terms of Philadelphia time.
unidentified		But from von Neumann's standpoint, it was running for 40 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From his standpoint, yes.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps so.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		But actually, it wasn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not in reality.
		In other words, it was a transfer of time.
		So the actual runtime for the generator, quite obviously, would be about four hours.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, he told us, he said there was enough fuel on board the ship, if something didn't break down, to keep those generators running for about 30 days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would have happened if you had not gone back and smashed it?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		His concern was that the hyperspace bubble, which was generated by the interaction between the two systems, Montauk and the Philadelphia experiment, would continue to expand, and he was afraid that it might eventually engulf the Earth.
		In which case, the Earth would be dumped into hyperspace.
		Well, anybody's guessed what would happen then.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Al Belik in Atlanta.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, hello.
		Yes, good evening, Art.
		My name is Doug from New Jersey.
unidentified		Hi, I was wondering just exactly how did all of this compare with the movie?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I remember seeing the movie, and I was thrilled.
unidentified		I enjoyed it.
		I was enthralled by the whole story.
		I was just wondering how much of this actually paralleled with the real event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Al, you saw the movie, and when all of it came back, where was the movie on, and where was it off?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		The movie was almost dead on for the first 15 minutes.
		Even that bar scene the night before the August 12th test, they gave the date incorrectly.
		They said October.
		Well, it was actually a third test in October, which was almost as disastrous as the second test, but at least nobody was on board.
		But that date was incorrect.
		The ship name, everything else was correct as to what happened.
		And one other minor error was they showed a full complement of crew.
		There was only 25 total on board.
		But it was so close to what actually happened that that was what triggered my memory to come back.
		And, of course, after about 15 minutes, it deviates into a Hollywood story, as they usually do.
		And that, of course, the chase in Nevada and California was all fiction.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so at least the first part of it was dead on, dead on enough to make your memory come rushing back.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Al Bilick.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, please?
unidentified		This is Charles from KCMO Territory in Kansas City, Missouri.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Kansas City, yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have a question?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, first a comment and then a question.
unidentified		The comment is that the frog was flying in a magnetic field just.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir.
		You're not.
		That's a totally different subject.
		Well, a totally different subject.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Al Bulek.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you calling from, sir?
unidentified		Hi, Ard.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm going from KFAR.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, in Fairbanks, Alaska.
unidentified		Yeah.
		Go ahead.
		Bulek, Miss.
		Well, sorry, sir.
		It's nice to talk to you.
		Okay.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		We have a question?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		I was kind of wondering, now, I know this is kind of a hard question to ask, but how do you really know where or what time you arrived at when you arrived at that time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you referring to the first when he jumped the ship?
unidentified		Well, see, what I'm kind of thinking is that could somebody from a different time intercept that transmission because it was so great?
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Well, It's an interesting question and a thought.
		We did arrive in 1983.
		There are records to this effect.
		I don't have all of the records, but remember the dates, and there are other people who remember exactly what happened at Montauk.
		Because later on, as Al Beelik, I was also at the Montauk station and part of that project, as was Duncan No. 2 and also Preston Nichols.
		But we know from other aspects and other people as to exactly what happened and the dates, if not exactly approximately, the dates for 12 August 43 and 83 are accurate and are exact.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Al, given an opportunity now to go an equal distance into the future from today, would you go?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		If I were assured to return, yes, because I know enough about future conditions that I'm not quite sure I would want to live 40 years from now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm in sympathy with that view.
		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Al Belick.
		Good evening or morning, actually.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		I'm in Walton, Illinois.
unidentified		My name's Ed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Ed.
unidentified		I got a question.
		Is it possible?
		Oh, well.
		And great show.
		Thank you for everything.
		I got a question.
		Is it possible?
		Let's say, okay, I live out in the country, and I'm standing there doing my yard work or something.
		Is it possible that somebody, oh, I don't know, somewhere in his own backyard, got a time machine, come maybe all of a sudden just bouncing in your backyard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, in other words, yeah, if time travel, it's a pretty good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If time travel is an established reality, then from time to time, we ought to see people virtually appearing or, I suppose, disappearing.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's true.
		I have been witness to that myself.
		And they didn't completely materialize, but they sort of slipped through.
		You saw them slipping through if you were fortunate enough to be looking at the right direction at the right time.
		Because I'm sure this has happened where people never saw it.
		But one of the problems is you cannot have universal, rampant, uncontrolled time travel because you can cause severe disruptions in the fabric of time itself.
		And that is one of the problems that occurred due to the lock-up of the two experiments, 43 and 83, that caused a rupture in space-time, which literally allowed very large numbers of aliens and alien ships to come through starting in 1943.
		This gave rise to the problem of the alien bases in 45, 46 in the Pacific, the problems that occurred from 47 onward, like the Roswell 47 and 49, White Sands in 48, the overflight of the White House in 1952, and of course the massive sightings that have occurred for years ever since.
		There have been, in what I research, there have been UFOs and ETs on this planet for thousands of years, but in small numbers.
		With this rupture of space-time, it'll gave a doorway, shall we say, to large ships with large numbers of personnel to come through.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that tells you then, or everybody, why that technology is presently very dark and kept as secret as ever.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And I wouldn't anymore give away a secret of how to build an atomic bomb than I would a secret of how to build a time machine.
		There are certain things which should be in the public domain.
		There are other things which are well kept secret for very good reasons.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well said.
		Al, it has been a pleasure, my friend.
		It's been too long.
		Hopefully we'll get a chance to do it again.
		I think it's the best interview we've done.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Okay, also, when you do have Sean Martin on, I can't pick the station up here.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Say hi for me and also give him my phone number so I can get back in touch with him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll pass it on, Al.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, my friend.
al bielek ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's Al Bielick.
		Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like a copy of this program, it is going to be a five-hour program because my guest coming up is going to follow up on what you just heard in part and take you way beyond.
		So, Al Bielick, Sean David Morton, if you want a copy of the program, 1-800-917-4278 is the number to call right now.

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