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March 19, 1997 - Art Bell

03:29:55

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Richard C Hoagland - NASA's New Face

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51:01

richard c hoagland

02:19:26

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Volvo's and select pre-owned Volvos.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high desert of the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning across this great land from way west, the Hawaiian and Eastern Island chains, across Liovera country to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the Pole, worldwide on the internet.
		This is Coast to Coast A.M. Good morning, everybody.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		Tonight, Richard C. Fogland, Instrum Science Awards winner, advisor to NASA, advisor at one time to science, or that is.
		Let me try that all over again.
		One-time advisor to NASA, science advisor to Walter Fronkite, CBS's Walter Fronkit.
		He will be with us momentarily.
		All kinds of things to discuss with Richard Hoagland.
		It's been a while since he's been on the radio.
		We'll ask him what he's been doing.
		Listen to me.
		If you own stocks, mutual funds, bonds, listen.
		A lot of you've probably begun to notice, I sure have, the stock market has finally begun to come down.
		The reason is simple.
		At the moment, Alan Greenspan, chairman of the Fed, said the market's too high and that he will, if necessary, and this gets the attention of traders, raise interest rates to bring it down.
		And usually his words, something like irrational exuberance, do the job.
		Many wise people have already begun to sell stocks in mutual funds in anticipation of this action by the Fed.
		The Federal Reserve controls our supply of money interest rates and now has even assumed control of our stock market.
		Many people don't know that the Fed is not even part of our government.
		It's privately owned and it refuses to be audited by our elected officials.
		Now, wouldn't it be cool if you got something in the mail from the IRS notifying you of an audit and you could send a simple little letter back saying, sorry, I refuse.
		Same thing.
		Call for a free report on the Federal Reserve and find out how you can protect your hard-earned savings.
		This read is a must.
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		Well, all right.
		One little note before we begin, and that is tomorrow night, as you know, Malachi Martin, or you may not know, was called out of town, an emergency kind of trip, so he is not going to be with us this week, but will next week.
		We'll let you know when.
		Tomorrow night, however, for at least a couple of hours, we are going to speak with Al Bielick, the Philadelphia Experiment Al Bielick.
		You might want to pass the word.
		Now, all the way across the country, where it's late and Richard Hoagland is awake.
		Here he is.
		Richard, hi.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It has been a while.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's been a little while.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There have been interesting things going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, a lot of floodwaters have gone under the bridge.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see you've been watching my friend John Holloman standing in the Ohio River Valley.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Northwest part of the country, too.
		It's been bad.
		Our president is on his way to Helsinki, rocked with pain, wheelchair-bound, to meet a spry jumping up and down, Boris Yeltsin.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Who's looking about 30 years younger.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We lost about 50 pounds.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's amazing what a good bypass operation will do for you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, oh, boy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure where to begin tonight because we have a lot of ground to cover and a lot of new things and some important connections and threads to draw together.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can I ask you about a couple of small things?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Relatively small things?
		Maybe it's Not so small.
		I'm getting inside source information that I'm not sure what to make of, Richard, about the state of the Mir Space Station.
		And, you know, some people say no problem.
		Everything's okay.
		I have other sources, Richard, that are saying, hey, these guys are about to asphyxiate up there.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they're not about to asphyxiate, but the station is old.
		It's been up there for, you know, 15, 20 years.
		Parts have been replaced.
		The Progress rockets carry replacement parts up.
		When the crews go up, they carry replacement parts.
		But it's basically in need of repair.
		And the Soviet Union, now Russia, has been working a space program on a decreasing financial base because of the collapse of the Soviet Empire.
		And there are a lot of people on the ground who literally are not getting paychecks on a regular basis so that their space program can continue.
		So, you know, we are seeing a very remarkable cultural phenomenon, which is a former superpower attempting to maintain a co-correspondence with us, who have a lot more money than they do, a lot more discretionary income, in an era when there is a radical reapportioning of resources in the former Soviet Union.
		So at one level, I'm not surprised they've had problems.
		What is intriguing is the role that Mir is playing in the larger discussion and larger mystery and puzzle that we are attempting to figure out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but I heard that the oxygen generators, whatever they are.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, there are three sources of oxygen on Mir.
		There is the electrolysis system, which basically takes solar power from the sun and those flat panels.
		If you've ever seen the TV shots, the spectacular TV shots from the shuttle now of Mir, it looks like a huge multi-paneled windmill in space, except it isn't rotating.
		It's held in an attitude control mode.
		But it's got these very long, narrow, slat-like panels, which are covered with solar cells.
		Those solar cells convert sunlight into electricity.
		And the electricity goes into batteries on board and through a power generation system or a power modulation system, power transfer system.
		And part of that electricity is used to basically break water apart and to store energy in hydrogen and oxygen.
		And the oxygen, part of that oxygen is breathed.
		It's kind of like a reverse fuel cell.
		Those systems, they had two systems on board.
		Both have broken down, all right, because they're old and they're aging and the replacement parts have not been coming up.
		In fact, I understand from a couple of the memos that you sent over tonight, confirmation that we, the United States, as part of our relationship with Russia, are quietly trying to manufacture replacement parts for one of these old oxygen generators, which is an electrolysis generator.
		That's how bad the economy and the infrastructure is in the former Soviet Union.
		That's one system.
		The secondary system has to do with basically a lithium canister system, which you burn lithium in a kind of a hydride, and you release an oxygen compound, which you then breathe.
		It is a thermal system.
		It creates quite a bit of heat.
		And it was one of those systems, which was a backup system, that caught fire a couple weeks ago and caused those pictures to appear on CNN over and over and over again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, the fire, I have been told, is more or was more extensive and or damaging than they have told us?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That is possible, but I don't think it's likely, and I'll tell you why.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Unlike the fire which killed Grissom, Chafee, and how my mind is going tonight.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, our astronauts.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The three astronauts in the Apollo 1 fire in 1967 on a pad, which was sitting on the ground, pressurized to over 16 pounds per square inch, on Earth under one gravity, where fire would race through a spacecraft primarily because of the overpressurization and because of a phenomenon called convection, which happens when you have gravity.
		If you do combustible experiments in orbit, which we have been doing now for many years on the shuttle, in these little closed glove boxes, if you light a match or a candle in orbit, because there is no gravity, the waste products of the rapid oxidation, which is what a fire is, will produce carbon dioxide and other byproducts from the oxidation process, from the flame.
		But because there's no gravity, there's no convection, and those waste products can't move out of the way.
		So the flame smothers itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's interesting.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't get new oxygen.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So a fire in space is incredibly less catastrophic and frightful and dangerous than a fire on the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very interesting.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So I really doubt that there was a fire in the sense that you and I would, or the audience would think of it.
		What happened was there was a local thermal overheating.
		There may have been momentary combustion which put itself out, but because a spacecraft is such a limited environment, any fire or any combustion produces nasty byproducts that you don't want to breathe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which is where they had a problem with wearing those masks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I understand two guys.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it could have easily been contained because it basically would have stuffed itself out within a few seconds.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the damage to the equipment is the profound problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And without scrubber problems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and with scrubber problems, I would assume that it takes a while to get the nasty byproducts out of what air you've got.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you have is electricity which runs fans.
		The fans move the air mechanically past other scrubbers, you know, like charcoal filters.
		But yes, in a closed environment of a spaceship, of a space station, which is what Mir is, a fire produces nasty byproducts.
		I mean, what is the primary cause of fatality in airplane crashes where people survive the shock of the crash?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Toxic asphyxiation.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's the inhalation of incredible numbers of toxic byproducts produced by flame on plastics and rayons and all that.
		Now, even though spacecraft have been redesigned since the fire on Apollo 1, so that it's primarily, and this goes for the Soviet program as well as our program, you have fire-resistant or fire-retardant or fire impervious materials like beta cloth, which is fiberglass.
		You still have a certain amount of material which if it gets hot, it will outgas.
		It will release products that you don't want to breathe and that can probably make you very ill or at worst could kill you in a confined space.
		And so that would be the primary immediate danger.
		The longer-term danger is that if this secondary system, remember the primary system was the electrolysis system, that was out, they were on the secondary system, that had a problem, and that's out.
		So they're down to a limited number of those canisters, and obviously they're looking at them warily because if one overheated, maybe the others could overheat.
		Sure.
		The third system, they got redundancy up the kazoo here, but the third system is basically you got a bunch of tanks and valves, and you crack the valves and you release compressed oxygen into the environment.
		Obviously, if you're down to that, you got X number of days until you run out of tanks.
		And again, you can't go to the corner drugstore or the corner hardware supply and get more.
		It's 200 miles up and a progress rocket or a shuttle trip to take up replacement parts and our oxygen.
		So the bottom line is that Mir is in trouble because of money and age.
		I don't think the astronauts or the cosmonauts, we have one astronaut up there right now, is in immediate danger.
		But I think the concept of cooperation with the Soviet Union is obviously in trouble because, not of intention, but because there's less and less money, discretionary funding, to do this kind of cutting-edge science and engineering, and that raises all kinds of other questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm surprised they're still doing it at all.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm not.
		Really?
		I'm not.
		Space is overwhelmingly important to the human condition.
		And what we're going to talk about tonight will put several more data points on the board to show why, even as they're going down the drain economically, they have maintained at all costs a viable space program.
		Art, this is major news.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I want to drag you back for a second before we get into that.
		I sent you something on purpose earlier.
		hope you got it.
		One thing Yeah, one thing that you and I have never really covered on the air extensively is our environments.
		And there are several things going on in the environment right now that have me shaking my head.
		One is the weather.
		We talked about that.
		Incredible weather.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I call it hyperdimensional weather.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hyperdimensional weather, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Another is the New York Times article I sent you, which seems to absolutely say that the fish damage we're now seeing has been positively and absolutely linked to ultraviolet radiation, a result of the ozone hole.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, some of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or some of it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there are obvious examples now which can be attributed definitely to the hole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Mutated frogs, Richard, albino frogs in England.
		I didn't send you that one.
		And, you know, out here in Las Vegas, they found fish with just absolutely horrible mutations in Lake Mead.
		You know, Lake Mead, the water supply for Las Vegas.
		And all over the planet, we've got the Larson ice shelf ready to slide into the water, crack off.
		People are worried about the Ross ice shelf, and it just goes on and on and on.
		The state of the environment here, is it a reason, in your view, to be really concerned, a little concerned, watchful, or we ought to be on this right now kind of deal?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we should have been on it 20 years ago.
		I mean, we were seeing the chickens coming home to roost.
		The chloro-fluorohydrocarbon problem, you know, the spray can problem, which the manufacturers said was not a problem, and we put limits on in the industrial world, but in the unindustrial world, the so-called third world, those controls do not apply.
		And every new air conditioner and every new prion plant in the third world, in India or in Africa or in South America, is not regulated, at least as far as I'm aware, except maybe the treaty that was signed a couple of years ago, the environmental treaty in South America, may in fact include ultimate controls, but you're way down the pipeline in terms of the damage.
		The damage is already occurring.
		The ozone hole, which has been getting bigger and bigger and bigger, is evidence of transgressions environmentally that have occurred in the past, the last 10, 20, 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The problem is it's been a political thing, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It has been, and will be political and economic.
		And that's the bad news.
		Now, the good news is that if you had a space program worthy of the name, I mean, one that we really put money behind and really have political leadership behind and was international, there are meaningful, radically interesting and engineering steps that could be Done right now to begin to repair the damage.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me lay out the problem so that everybody understands what's going on.
		We on planet Earth live about 93 million miles away from a star called the Sun.
		We are surrounded by an oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere with a speck of other stuff in it.
		And because of ultraviolet light and the copious supply of oxygen in our atmosphere supplied basically by living organisms, green plants, mostly microscopic green plants in the oceans, we produce such amounts of oxygen that at the upper level of the atmosphere,
		at the transition between the so-called troposphere and the stratosphere, about 40 miles up, the ultraviolet from the sun produces a form of oxygen called ozone.
		Instead of O2, it's O3.
		It's three oxygen atoms stuck together.
		That ozone, which is a byproduct of life on Earth and the sunlight ultraviolet coming from the sun, screens the life down below from the deadly rays of the sun, the deadly ultraviolet short wavelength, high energy rays that would otherwise not only produce intense sunburns, but would ultimately illuminate life on Earth.
		That delicate balance has gone on for literally millions, if not hundreds of millions of years, until a technological civilization at our point in time in the planet evolved to create chlorochlorohydrocarbons,
		which is a chemistry that busily produces a molecule that does not exist in nature, that when it is released into the air from air conditioners and spray cans and, you know, sprayed Teflon and Pan and,
		you know, hairsprays for people who want to keep their hair in place, it floats up in the atmosphere until it is broken apart by sunlight and releases primarily the chlorine, which then goes the rest of the way to the stratosphere-throposphere boundary and busily attacks,
		viciously attacks, siduously attacks the ozone by combining with it, reducing ozone back to oxygen and a chlorine and oxygen atom.
		I forget the chemistry term for that.
		The point is that the more chlorofluorohydrocarbons we produce through the industrial process, the more we have been eating away at the protective shielding layer that keeps all life present on this planet and unscreened from mutations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold that thought.
		We'll pick up right there when we come back.
		All right, everybody, we're going to break here at the bottom of the hour.
		My guest is Richard C. Hoagland, advisor to NASA, science advisor to Walter Cronkite, Daddy, and the winner of the Ingstrom Science Award.
		And tonight we will discuss many, many things.
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		Now, here again, Art Bell.
		Well, good morning.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I love the way this commercial starts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you're over 40 and want to feel like you're 20 again, listen to me, because this message is for you.
unidentified		I mean...
unidentified		Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is for you.
		No one would.
		The number again, 1-800-921-3000.
		Back now to Manhattan and Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard.
		The ozone.
		we've got the ozone layer.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean...
unidentified		We had it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ozone is...
		Life is not possible without ozone, and ozone is not possible without life.
		In fact, one of the interesting things about this new rash of planets that we're trying to...
		Well, the life came second because it was the ultraviolet.
		Again, these are the models, the astrophysical models.
		In the beginning, it was supposedly the ultraviolet from the sun on the primeval soup of the Earth's atmosphere minus free oxygen that created the complex organic molecules that eventually become DNA, that eventually are self-replicating, that eventually produce life forms that then produce excess oxygen that screens out the ultraviolet that allows evolution to progress up the evolutionary chain, eventually to us.
		That's the theory.
		Now, there are a lot of interesting things we could say about the theory, but tonight's not the night to do that.
		The point is that without life producing oxygen, green plants, primarily in the oceans, little tiny one-celled photosynthetic plankton and other organisms, we would not be alive Here, because the ultraviolet from the sun, unscreened by ozone, is deadly.
		And these various observations around the planet are indicating that even a small percentage decrease in the amount of ozone protection that we normally enjoy due to this industrial production of a material that gobbles up ozone when it gets up 40 miles is very deleterious.
		Now, in fact, I don't think that the majority of the weirdness being reported is due to the ozone depletion.
		I think that that, in fact, is limited to certain regions, primarily where the hole and where the decrease is the largest.
		And that because the biologists don't know any other mechanism, they're basically reaching that, in fact, there are more interesting or equally interesting relationships that are currently unknown to science that might be usefully discussed at some other time that come from, among other things, the hyperdimensional model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sent you also a little article entitled The Rising Seas, Trends in Climate Resources.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's not leave those on for a second because, remember, this is the problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm staying with the environment here, but okay.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, before the break, I was going to tell you that we can do something about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If we had the space program that we should have, and we were putting the high-level industrial kinds of monies into space that we have been promised for the last 30-plus years, ever since we went to the moon and then did nothing, all right, we would now have in hand upstairs a mechanism to basically stop the problem cold.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How?
unidentified		Ah, it's simple.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If the sun produces ozone by means of ultraviolet light on oxygen, then man could produce ozone by means of ultraviolet light on oxygen.
		It's basically an income outgo problem.
		You have a bank account.
		Think of your bank account as ozone.
		You go to your cash machine and you make withdrawals.
		Think of that as the chlorofluorohydrocarbon depletion of the ozone in your bank.
		You also have an income, a salary, right?
		And you put in deposits.
		Think of that as sunlight making new ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, how do we make a deposit?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ah, how do we make deposits?
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the last, since 83, when President Reagan announced the so-called SDI program, Star Wars, we've had the military-industrial complex looking assiduously at ways to shoot down ballistic missiles.
		And one of the technologies that was tested and focused on and a lot of hardware developed, and then it's kind of sitting on the shelf because the Cold War suddenly went away and the Soviet Union suddenly wasn't going to shoot missiles at us anymore, was something called a battery of chemical lasers.
		If we were to put sun-pumped ultraviolet lasers in orbit, in a series of stations, in orbits around the Earth, and they would use mile-size arrays of solar cells to basically electrically charge tanks of certain chemicals that could then be brought together in the lasers and aimed tangentially at the upper atmosphere
		of the Earth, we could, in very short order, repair the damage caused by 20, 30 years of chlorofluorohydrocarbon depletion.
		Because unlike the sun, which uses broadband ultraviolet to produce ozone, we know from science, from chemistry, from high school chemistry, exactly what wavelengths produce ozone to the maximum efficiency.
		And we can tune our lasers so we don't have to, you know, throw the blinding light of the whole ultraviolet spectrum at the Earth.
		We only have to use those narrow band wavelengths that produce ozone effectively and efficiently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, could the HAARP project have as one of its unstated goals this kind of research?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, because the HAARP is microwave and low-frequency radio waves, and you can't produce ozone with that.
		It really is a quanta problem.
		You require the high-level, high-energy ultraviolet.
		But what I'm saying is that if we were to stop making weapons of war, think of more efficient ways to kill people, and use that same genius and innovative engineering to now take that technology, which is almost off the shelf, and apply it to this problem,
		which affects every man, woman, and child directly or indirectly, because if the food chain, if the whales along the southern fringe of the Antarctic continent don't get the proper amount of krill because the plankton are being killed by exposure to ultraviolet coming down through the ozone hole over the Antarctic, then that propagates through an enormous amount of the food chain in the southern waters around the South Pole.
		And on and on and on.
		I mean, everyone knows the Greenpeace slogans, the environmental litany.
		We know the biosphere is intricately and inextricably interconnected.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is going to happen if we do not take the kind of steps you outlined and we continue to lose ozone?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is going to happen?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, you'll be darting from building to building wearing 35 sunblock and three layers of sunglasses.
		And you'll be living off very expensive vegetables grown in hydroponic gardens, but that's only going to be the people in the upper 1% of income because other people won't be able to afford vegetables, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
		In other words, without ozone, the whole damn life support system of the planet collapses and we're in deep doo-doos.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I think we are because here, listen to this, Richard.
		We are but the U.S. We use an enormous amount of the world's resources, energy resources.
		Now, the rest of the world, I went to China, I saw it, Richard.
		I know what's going on.
		And so many other spots in the world, they want what we've got.
		And the only way they're going to get there right now is the same way we did.
		So if you think there's depletion going on now, you just wait till some of these other countries begin to crank up industrially.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, to some extent, you're right, and to some extent you're not, because you're extrapolating linearly.
		The fact is that chlorofluorohydrocarbons are not the most efficient way to make air conditionering.
		They happen to be the first way.
		They happen to be the cheapest way.
		There is a progression of engineering going on.
		And by the time you get to the level where the Chinese have mass access to money and technology to where they can afford the kind of air conditioners we have, there'll be a different kind of air conditioning fluid, so they will not impact the environment the way we have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If that is the only influence on the ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, let me ask you one of the...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's one of the primary ones because...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People are constantly calling, even some in science, who have said every time we launch a shuttle, we destroy quite a bit of ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that baloney or is it real?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it's absolutely real.
		It's absolutely real.
		It's not just the shuttle.
		It's any major solid-fuel rocket, all right?
		Ariane, the Deltas.
		It's a major problem.
		Now, the way you get around that problem is you stop launching shuttles with this stupid, arcane, backward technology, and you go to anti-gravity.
		Okay?
		You apply hyperdimensional physics.
		Now, I was very heartened the other day to see that the Final Frontier magazine, which I wanted to talk about anyway, you know, published out of the Midwest, which is kind of one of the NASA family, ran a very aggressive set of articles, not only on the fossil life from Mars, but also on the Finnish experiments.
		All right?
		The anti-gravity experiment that we covered some months ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not everybody knows about that.
		I've got a lot of new affiliates.
		I always have new affiliates.
		So very briefly, 101 on what they did in Finland.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There was a physicist and colleagues at the university, at Tempir University, who was about to publish a paper describing extended recent experiments using superconducting technology and spinning disks that appeared to replicate in a predictable manner a significant weight loss,
		up to maybe a percent or something, under certain conditions.
		And this was a follow-on to experiments that apparently this same physicist had conducted in 1992, which had been published in one of the preeminent scientific journals of the world, the Physica C, and had been reviewed by people of no less credibility than the physicists at the Max Planck Institute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So in other words, under controls, they actually determined that a mass under these conditions weighed less, which means that you are shielding what we're doing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's one possible interpretation, but in fact, if you get into the nitty-gritty and people can go back and listen to the archive tapes of the Art Bell Show, it's probably not shielding.
		It's probably hyperdimensional physics, but that's a detail.
		The geopolitical thing of incredible significance is that Final Frontier magazine, in the last couple of months, apparently ran an extensive article describing the Finnish physicist and his colleagues and the fear over the paper that was suddenly withdrawn, the second paper, and the fact that NASA Huntsville was planning to replicate the experiment.
		And they promised their readers to follow the story, to stay tuned, and that NASA, there were NASA people who were seriously interested.
		Well, obviously, if this experiment is replicated, and in a future show, I will bring finally to your audience a physicist who has replicated it to my satisfaction.
		And we are about to put this on our website with proper documentation and all that.
		It's taken a while.
		This is cutting-edge stuff, and you can't leap for the first lily pad.
		So if this guy has done it, which I believe he has, and he represents a military laboratory, all right, was employed, has been employed, is employed at one of the key military research laboratories, and did this work not in that lab, but in a private college lab, then the NASA experiments cannot be far behind.
		Given the bureaucracy, they could be a little further behind, but eventually they will replicate.
		This appears to really be replicable.
		It appears to really stand still.
		Now, if that is true, then you can imagine the day, someday, I'm not going to put a timeframe on it, when you can get rid of these idiot things called rockets and go to what we would term field propulsion or gravity manipulation, in which case the impact of leaving the Earth on the environment becomes zero.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that is not science fiction because final frontier is a very, how should I say this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It used to be a very anal retentive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask a question, Richard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A dumb question, civilian question.
unidentified		Anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had a craft operated with some sort of anti-gravity device, as I understand it presently, we must achieve to leave escape velocity.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes?
unidentified		Raw, wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, you have to achieve escape velocity to leave the Earth permanently is because you're using a reaction fluid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, yeah.
		That's what I thought.
		Now, as it is now, we must achieve escape velocity.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If you had anti-gravity, you could drift upward at one mile per hour until you were finally out, right?
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, out is a relative term.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Gravity decreases, decreases, decreases.
		You're never away from the influence of any gravitational field.
		It just gets weaker and weaker and weaker, and it falls Off with the inverse square of the distance, meaning that at some finite distance, it's effectively gone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would an anti-gravity device be more effective, Richard, closer to the source of what it was repelling from, if we want to think of it that way, or would it be more effective in the vastness of space?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, if it's true field effect technology, field effect propulsion, you can think of this in terms of theoretical terms.
		No, because it becomes more efficient in a high gravity field, and it becomes less efficient in a low gravity field, but it doesn't need to be as efficient in a low gravity field because the gravity is less.
		So it kind of balances out.
		The key thing is the energy supply.
		You need an energy source.
		Now, I strongly believe that what we're seeing out of Tampere, out of Finland, and Finland is going to come up a lot tonight, boys and girls, all right?
		Not just because of Helsinki and the president and the Elton meeting there, but because of some pretty astonishing things we have found that we are going to communicate tonight, and you're going to play a part in verifying.
		But I believe strongly that this is the public side of the private black research and development program, which has been aggressively pursued for over 30 years.
		Remember, we have a video out there, which is a piece of shuttle video that came to us by way of sources in Maryland that was downlinked from STS-48, the Space Transportation System mission number 48 in September of 91,
		which shows some astonishing things cavorting around in Earth orbit that NASA's party line says are ice crystals, and all the independent analyses say are spaceships operating some kind of anti-gravity technology.
		And those range from our own analysis to Mark Carlallo's analysis to the physicist in the University of Nebraska, John Kasher, to others that have come on board.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		NASA says it's boulder dash.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, NASA is full of boulder dash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And they also now don't allow astronauts to target on boulder dash.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't allow astronauts to put cameras full-time outside of the corner anymore either.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All the shuttle video outside is delayed, not by your familiar radio seven seconds art, but by almost a full minute.
		They really want to, they have slow guys on the trigger, so they need to have a lot of time to point the cameras at something dull.
		And that happened after SDS-48.
		You are seeing no live video, including from Hubble.
		The Hubble repair recently or the Hubble refurbishment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I recall.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That was not live.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That was a minute old by the time you got to see it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, why would they do that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I know, I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's not say that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, that's a good question.
		Why?
		Why?
		Why the delay?
		Let's answer that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There is no answer.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you can get NASA to give us a good answer, then you're a better man than I, Gungadim.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least, you know, when you're watching the NFL.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I mean, are they afraid astronauts will leap into expletives deleted or something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there's a...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, that sounds silly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We used to have live video and audio from the moon.
		And there was an astronaut.
		His name was Gene Cernan on Apollo 10.
		And when something happened during the disconnect of the ascent stage from the descent stage, we heard live across a quarter of a million miles a whole string of explicit deletives.
		But NASA didn't suddenly go to a minute delay on air-to-ground communications from the astronauts for 30 years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you see the fax I just sent you on the STS-80?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I think it is arriving from the fax machine even as we speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you better take a look at that during the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got it here.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is the Bengay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is something.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Someone is sending me something or sending you something separate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I see.
		No, I sent you something which starts out, Dear Art, a satellite and communications consultant named John Locker claims to have overheard the following space shuttle NASA TV conversation on February 18th, gives the time, the transcript follows, and it's pretty weird stuff.
		So look through your pile of faxes and see if you've got that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, I just got another one, which is kind of funny.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, I did not get the one that you sent to me unless you give me more clues.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I'll do better than that during the break.
		I will get it to you.
		How's that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, Richard.
		We will be right back.
		We've got lots and lots and lots to talk about tonight.
		By the way, everybody, a lot of people trying to order tapes of previous programs, including Sean Morton.
		If you want a copy of that, or for that matter, this night's program, the number is 1-800-917-4278.
		That's 1-800-917-4278.
		And you're listening to the still independent CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		CBC Radio Network.
		You're listening to Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Listeners west of the Rockies can call ART toll-free by dialing 1-800-618-8255.
		If you're east of the Rockies, the toll-free number is 800-825-5033.
		If you've never called ART before, you may use the first-time caller line at area code 702-727-1222.
		And the wildcard line is area code 702-727-1295.
		When you get through, let it ring, and ART will answer your call in order on the air.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
		Ooh, and it's all right, and it's coming over.
		We gotta get right back to where we started from.
		Love is good.
		Love is good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		What's wrong?
		Oh, my God.
		Oh, my God.
		Call our bell toll free west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255 1-800-618-8255.
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		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Good morning, everybody.
		Richard C. Hofland is my guest from Manhattan, New York.
		He's winner of the Ingstrom Science Award, a one-time advisor to NASA and science advisor to Walter Cronkite.
		And we're talking many, many things this morning.
		I think you'll find it fascinating.
		Stay right where you are and welcome in.
		Well, that's it.
unidentified		Symptoms.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So call 1-800-249-6060.
		Again, 1-800-249-6060.
		All right, we've been discussing the ozone in the first hour, and toward that end, Richard, let me come back to you with this, Art.
		I have read that CSCs are four times heavier than air.
		If that's true, how in the world can CSCs float up to the ozone layer?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, they're kicked up by, remember convection?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember why fires are dangerous in spacecraft on Earth?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We have very active, convective things on Earth called thunderstorms.
unidentified		That's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you get very strong, I mean, if you've ever been flying in an airplane, particularly in the lee of the Rocky Mountains, and you do not have your seatbelt fastened, and suddenly, exactly, over the long term, and the long term in this case is months or years, even gases that are heavier than air will work their way up and down.
		And then what happens, you see, is that the solar ultraviolet begins to break the molecule apart.
		So it's the chlorine that actually winds up floating up.
		And it's the chlorine that does the damage.
		That's what attacks the oxygen, the triatomic oxygen, the O3, and basically makes ozone, gobbles up ozone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I've always wondered about that.
		I always thought that a good question.
		Now, we were talking about Finland and anti-gravity.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Richard, I'm going to tell you about something I saw the other day, and I don't know if you happen to see it, but believe me when I tell you what I'm about to tell you is true.
		CNN ran a report, again I think it was Finland, with video, showing strong magnetic fields levitating, get this, flowers, tadpoles, and spiders.
		I saw a spider, Richard, in midair, just, you know, absolutely as though there was no gravity at all, moving his little legs around, probably wondering what the hell's going on.
		But he was levitated.
		And flowers, how could they do that with magnetics?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I didn't see that report.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'd love to know what news program, because they have several news programs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It was on the 9 o'clock regular CNN news.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This was in the morning?
unidentified		Evening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, do you remember what day?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, my wife may.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got the videotape in the other room, though, but I guarantee it, Brandon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right, do me a favor.
		In your copious spare time, run the video, get the correspondent and the location and all that.
		We have friends at CNN in Atlanta.
		We can run it down, and I'll report back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, in the meantime, I'm sure somebody in the audience will surf the internet, find it for me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are people, you know, who report unusual magnetic phenomena vis-a-vis human beings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the scientist interviewed said he could do this with a human.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There is a Russian video that I saw some years ago of a gal that was able to attract all kinds of flatware.
		You know, she's standing there with irons and frying pans and all kinds of other stuff dripping off her, a rather portly individual, if I remember.
		And it was behaving exactly as if it was magnetism.
		Now, I don't know of the laboratory results.
		I don't know of any actual lab measurements that were made.
		I mean, magnetism is, again, a phenomenon that we think we understand because we've given it a name and we have described it.
		But in fact, all science does is to produce coherent, predictive descriptions of phenomena.
		Get down to the nitty-gritty, explaining how the phenomena are produced.
		At some level, science basically, at the current era, has thrown up its hands and says, damn if I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, can you conceive of any way that a strong magnetic field could levitate a biological organism?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, I come back to this hyperdimensional model.
		Yes, there are conditions under which living organisms can levitate.
		There are very well-documented reports of certain individuals, saints, okay, in the Roman Catholic Church, who have been reported to levitate in front of hundreds, if not thousands, of people, over and over and over again.
		People in intense meditation.
		This, in fact, happened in cathedrals in Europe in the last century a lot, and was one reason for them ultimately becoming canonized.
		There's one in particular, I forget her name.
		It's been a while since I've had to remember this stuff.
		The point is that there is a beginning appreciation, at least on the part of what we've been doing, of a Connection between what we think of as physics art and metaphysics.
		Metaphysics is a term meaning the physics of the whole.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Meta meaning the whole.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When you say metaphysics to most people in the latter part of the 20th century, they think of that airy, fairy, flaky New Age stuff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, if the hyperdimensional model is true, and there's more and more observational, laboratory, and astronomical evidence that it is, that we have rediscovered where physics would have gone 100 years ago were it not for a very quirky left-hand turn that science took back in the late 1800s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, well, the New Agers have a bad name or a bad rap, but the fact of the matter is, if hyperdimensional physics is a reality, then a lot of what they talk about in New Age is really based on that, even if they don't know it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
		And for those who are more familiar with Tom Bearden and the scalar discussions that he talks about, it's the same thing.
		And it has to do with how our reality, how our laws of physics, our laws of matter, energy, radiation, how they interact, gravity, all of that, where it really derives from.
		Where do these laws that we observe in the so-called physical world, how do they relate to each other and where do they ultimately derive from?
		As you know, before he died, Einstein, in his latter years, before he died in 1955, he was pursuing something called the grand unified field theory.
		A theorem that he believed he could write as an equation that would unite all of the known forces of nature known up until 1955.
		After he died, a legion of physicists took over.
		And there have been many, many, many valiant attempts and papers published and conferences held and are still being held with this effort to unite, to combine observations of science into one grand explanation, one grand theory.
		In fact, now, some of the quirkier wags in the scientific community have given it a kind of a psych expression.
		They call it toe, T-O-E, the theory of everything.
		All right.
		So if you keep stubbing your toe, it means you haven't got toe.
		Anyway, the point is that we've been seeking this unification.
		Well, if you go to the metaphysician, particularly in the last century, and some of the leading lights whose work or whose writings deserve to be studied and followed, or if you look at metaphysicians over the last several centuries from the Far East,
		from also from the Western tradition, you find there are commonalities that seek to explain the world we can see in terms of an invisible world, an invisible reality that we can't see.
		Now, the only way that that is at all possible is if there is some mechanism of communication between the one level of reality and the other level of reality.
		You know, for people who might find it hard to imagine that the visible is somehow modulated or influenced or shaped by the invisible, it's very easy to prove this if you're flying in an airliner.
		Now, you don't want to be part of the experiment, but at least when you're leaving the ground, every stewardess takes the time to describe a set of events whereby if you were to participate in those events, you would see the invisible becoming visible.
		They read through that checklist and they show you how if you were to lose cabin pressure, the oxygen mass would drop down, right?
		What they don't tell you is if you lose pressure, what will happen is because of the sudden partial vacuum created as you're zipping along at 600 miles an hour at 35,000 feet over whatever, all of the water vapor in the air, which is normally invisible, will suddenly turn very visible and become a dense fog and nobody will see anything.
		And you won't be able to see that oxygen mask for a few seconds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They don't tell you that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They don't tell you.
		They should tell you that.
		They don't want to scare you to, you know what?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, look, we're trying to cover up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's the invisible that's there all the time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The water vapor is around you all the time, but under certain conditions, it suddenly becomes visible.
unidentified		All right, all right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Clouds or fog.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold up for a second.
		While we're here, Richard, stop for a second and let me read you this.
		Just came in.
		CBS says it has given investigators a piece of seed fabric that a freelance writer claims holds proof that TWA Flight 800 was downed by a Navy missile.
		The FBI wanted the fabric because it's investigating whether evidence from the crash, yet this, has been stolen.
		James Sanders is an advocate of the friendly fire theory, which the government says has no basis in fact.
		So you combine that with the second round from Pierre Salinger.
		And where do you think we are now, Richard, with flight 800?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what I'm intrigued with, over and beyond the catastrophe that took the lives of 240-some people and left us this lingering mystery since last July 17th, is how when Salinger, who is no dummy, he is no fool, he is no idiot, he was press secretary to one of the more interesting and certainly legendary presidents of the United States, John Kennedy.
		He then had a distinguished career for 40-plus years as a journalist.
		He was a senior correspondent for ABC News.
		He broke hard-hitting, very complicated stories involving Europe, international politics.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've got you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, mainstream dude would not go quickly around the bench.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no.
		I mean, the idea that Pierre Salinger has suddenly fallen off a turm truck and doesn't know how to tell a real source from hoax and fake material is not believable.
		What is much more believable is that Pierre Salinger is one of the few journalists of integrity who is attempting to follow the story wherever it leads.
		And the incredible backlash and reaction against his theory and the evidence he is putting forward and the sources he is drawing upon, which include French intelligence sources and Richard Russell and this video of the FAA air traffic control system that night,
		that that overreaction by the American press and the American government is some measure that Stalinger is on to something.
		Now, I am not, I don't have the evidence myself to say that Pierre's theory is correct, but I am saying that the extraordinary reaction to the press conference that he held on the 13th of March, just last week, apparently triggered a series of events in short order, which I intend to discuss as the evening progresses.
		And that involves also something that this audience can physically do that may shed light on these mysteries as they stand separate and they relate to each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Too many mysteries.
		Here is another one.
		This whole audience, based on your previous appearances and things said by Arthur C. Clarke about things that you had said, we were all looking forward to these incredible photographs that we were going to get of the moons of Jupiter.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And there was supposed to be very detailed, very good photographs.
		In fact, as far as I know, the spacecraft went by, and I haven't seen a photograph yet.
		No.
		Where are the photographs?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And you're not likely to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Please, what's going on?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, you know, the bottom line is, and I am now speaking after 15 years of trying to find out the truth, the space agency that we are paying for tonight is simply not telling us the truth.
		And it is becoming increasingly obvious to more and more people that there is something radically amiss.
		Yeah, really radically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really radically.
		I mean, these photos were going to come to us right away, and they would have possibly shown ice cracks and the possibility of life down there and all the rest of it.
		So these are important pictures.
		I want to know where they are.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, there are a couple on the JPL Galileo website.
		And what we have done is we have gone in, as others have, and we have downloaded them.
		We have looked at them and we have uploaded them to our website.
		And we'll be uploading in the next few days even more.
		But there is an incredibly tiny handful, maybe two or three, out of the supposedly hundreds that have been taken, which no one has seen.
		And what is very disturbing, Art, is if you log on to the official NASA websites to see these images, what you find is that they have been deliberately tampered with.
		What NASA is doing, and it is confounding that nobody in the mainstream community is in high dudgeon about this, is that they are deliberately derezzing, that is, they are deliberately blurring the pictures,
		and then they are presenting them as compressed data files using the JPEG algorithm, which is a very lossy algorithm that produces all kinds of spurious noise into the image so that you can't tell ultimately what's real and what's memorex.
		And the idea that they have such limited engineering understanding of computer compression technology that they would choose the most lossy mechanism to provide the American public that are paying for this data, versions of this data, for anyone who knows anything about imaging, it's obvious that this is a very sophisticated level of sequestration.
		Well, I would agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, these photographs would be put up there in the uncompressed mode, which means they're large files, so there could be peer review.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that they are not doing that is very suspicious.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, they have said in all the captions, they're claiming that there can be no official release for a year and that no sign of conclusions can be drawn.
		And in one sense, they are correct.
		I mean, you'd be a fool to stake anything on what is in the public domain because it has been subjected to such lousy compression technology.
		To give you an example, on the last few days on the NSSDC website, which is the National Space Science Data Center in Washington, there has appeared an image of the face on Mars taken from, I believe, 35A72, which is one of the two Viking shots taken back in 1976.
		It has been cropped from the original full frame.
		It has been enlarged about three times.
		It has been JPEG, meaning it has been compressed.
		And it is a 10K file, meaning it has 10,000 bytes of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not very big.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What's happened is because of the severe compression, it is so distorted it is almost unrecognizable.
		And were it not for the caption, which explains that it's from 30th of A72, you would think that it had been deliberately altered or was made up or done in some kind of paint program.
		One of our collaborative websites, Kincea's Planetary Mystery site, which can be found by linking through our site.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we both have better site pictures of the face than that, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but here's the point: what they've done is to put a comparison side by side in a whole page called NASA's New Face.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so hold that thought because we're at the bottom of the hour.
		We will be right back.
		Richard C. Hoagland is my guest.
		We have many things to talk about.
		Stay right where you are.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Art Bell.
		Just because we can't prove it yet does not mean it may not be so.
		Come explore the unknown.
		The as yet unproven.
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		46-27.
		That's 1-800-557-4627.
		You've got nothing to lose but the fat.
		All right.
		Richard C. Oakland once again.
		By the way, before we get started, Richard, once again, did you happen to get fax I sent you on STS-82?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No.
		Hang on a sec.
		Did we get a fax on STS-82?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you did.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		From Art?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Better have it.
unidentified		Nope.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do not come.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I've sent it twice now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll send it again.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have someone picking up faxes and depositing them right here.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And nothing's arrived on that.
unidentified		Hmm.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So anyway, you're actually framing them.
unidentified		Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Here it is on the bottom of the pile.
unidentified		Ah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The satellite communications consultant named John February 18th, 639.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Technology Triumphs.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That and a bit of good staff work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I'll let you examine that at your leisure, and you can comment on it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I already have.
		Yeah, I had read it earlier.
		I didn't connect the number.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Well, I don't know what to say.
		I mean, so we've got astronauts reporting without a flash.
		The light flashed by me.
		There it is again.
		I thought I must be seeing things.
		I mean, there's no way to know what they were looking at.
		We don't have video.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if you read into the second page.
		Yeah, that's right.
		We don't have video.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, we do have video of SDS-48.
		And apparently, there's another example that was shown where we have video of things equally as impressive as SDS-48.
		And I don't remember which mission, but, you know, I think we'd get into shuttle missions to see weird things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, you know, all of this makes no sense to me.
		If there is this technology that either others have or we have, that uses the kind of forces that you've talked about so many times on this program, then what are the Russians doing launching Mir?
		What are we doing?
		Launching the shuttle?
		What are we doing?
		Scooting around with old-fashioned rocketry, burning holes in the ozone.
		Why are we doing all this?
		I mean, it's a good question, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This gets to the heart of what I want to talk about this evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good, go.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Let me start with some background.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to mention a name that I am not very fond of, which is Bill Cooper.
unidentified		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have never been a fan of Bill's work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes two of us.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because he basically has what I think of as the spaghetti approach to this problem.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is if you throw enough of it on the wall, something is going to stick.
unidentified		Right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He's not my favorite guy either.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But anyway.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		However, Bill Cooper gave me a vital clue years ago.
		And I was thinking tonight whether I should attribute him publicly or should, you know, basically just have said a source.
		And I decided that I would do it publicly because I want everyone out there to know that what I'm going to say tonight, I'm saying because this is where I believe we are now.
		If there's one thing that you can count on from this investigation is that when we have figured out another piece of this puzzle, we will lay it out.
		We will lay out the documentation.
		We will lay out the logic chain of evidence that has led us from point A to point B to point C. If there are people that disagree with that, that's fine.
		I'm not running for public office.
		I'm not, you know, entertaining the Chinese.
		I don't have a bedroom where people can stay over in, although I'm really thinking that might be an interesting way to raise some funds for the investigation.
		You know, open up a spare bedroom and give it a sexy name and see who shows up.
		Anyway, I'm trying, and the colleagues that are working with us literally now all over the world, we literally have somebody in the sands of Egypt tonight, Art, who I am very jealous of because he is going to get one hell of a view of Hale Bop over the pyramids before dawn.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you seen it yet?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have not seen it yet because I'm in the biggest city in the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, let me tell you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have got to go out into the country.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have to make an expedition to see this thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, after the program is over, every morning now I go out and there it is, 30 or 40 degrees in the sky, Blazing, I would say, in my estimation, Richard, as bright as Jupiter, or just as close to that as you can imagine.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		With a tail, what, about 20 degrees long?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my God, it's gigantic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We will measure it by gigantic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's precisely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You will never forget the sight, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, what if, all right, let me make some people mad right away.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, go right ahead, Wayne.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What if I was going to tell you that I can prove in the next few minutes that Hailbop is deliberate?
		It is not a cosmic visitor.
		It is not an errant chunk of rock.
		It is not a random fleck of cosmic flotsam or jetsum that is coursing around the sun.
		Someone has presented us with a gift precisely and deliberately, and it's not alias.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then I'd probably want to run a commercial to hold them over and make them listen, but I won't do that, so you go ahead and tell us that's too important to me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me just let that lie for a few minutes.
unidentified		No!
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, no, you can't tempt us like that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I can do that.
unidentified		Yes, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because I want to go back to Bill Cooper.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It relates.
unidentified		Believe me or not, it all relates.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Our trek, our effort for the last 15 years, since I got into this and realized that it was so much deeper and wider than I could have possibly imagined, and became determined I'm going to see it through till the bitter end.
		Wherever the truth leads, I'm going to be there.
		I'm going to follow.
		And it has led in some stunning and astonishing and surprising directions.
		That being the cornerstone of the work that I and my colleagues are trying to do to the best of our ability, when we discover new stuff, I have to report it.
		If we can document it, if we can support it, so other people can follow the same trail, so they can replicate it.
		This is not, you know, Courtney Brown.
		This is not far sight.
		This is not remote viewing.
		This is the old-fashioned.
		Elbow grease, leg work, good detective work, good thinking, good sources, and thank God for the Internet, because it's allowing us to do a lot of things we could not have done in the way of chasing down tidbits and snippets of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		For the moment, they are in the process, by the way, of trying to snip at the Internet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They are trying, and they're going to fail because it's bigger than all of us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I quite agree.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's an organism.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep.
		It is not.
		And it'll be interesting to see how the court responds.
		The questioning today by some, like Judge Scalia, was very perceptive because he says, I have to throw my damn computer out every five years.
		How can you make laws governing this when it's in process?
		All right?
		Very perceptive comment.
		I'm hoping the court is going to be 21st century minded and realize that since most of the, we're getting far afield here, but most of the pornography, which is the scare tactic, is coming at us from foreign sources anyway.
		You could make all the laws and tie up every person in the United States tight as a drum, and you'd still have a problem with children and pornography and things that some people don't want them to see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Since we're far afield, let me keep you there for one second.
		With regard to the Internet, Michael Crichton's new book, I don't know if you've had a chance to read it, the follow-up to Jurassic Park, has one passage in it that is devastatingly interesting.
		In it, Richard, his hypothesis is that the Internet will actually slow evolution.
		He says that if you take a small desert island and you put a few animals on it, they will evolve very quickly, and they will come up with separate ideas and solutions, and they will be entrepreneurish, and they will get things done because they must.
		But if you put many, many, many, many birds on, giving them all the same ideas, and the internet will give, you know, people in India and Moscow and Peking and Washington will have and share the same top 10 ideas.
		It will actually slow evolution.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He's wrong.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		He's dead ass wrong.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the reason he's wrong is because he's trying to take into the realm of consciousness an analog from material evolutionary modeling, which is not accurate.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What happens if I create a global organism that can talk to itself at the speed of light, where a tidbit learned in Bangladesh Thursday last week is available on this laptop that I'm sitting here in my lap, literally as we speak.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, then maybe you have the opposite effect.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because what you're doing is you're basically making everybody smarter by orders of magnitude.
		The hard part about knowledge is not having wonderful ideas.
		It's having the ability to check and test the wonderful ideas.
		And the progress of science is limited not by the brightness of some gal or guy in a lab, but in his or her ability to find out everybody else who's had the same idea, and if it didn't work, discard it and go on.
		And what the Internet is going to allow us to do at a democratized level is to get rid of all the junky things that don't work and get on with the things that do work.
		So there's going to be an acceleration of progress of the most meaningful level rather than a retardation and a sameness.
		Because the innovation comes from within the human being, the problem is that in art, you want all this diversity, but in science, you want to zero in on the one right answer and eliminate all the dumb, stupid, wrong answers.
		And that, if you're using pencil and paper or slide rules, has taken a heckload amount of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, I'm glad that we got a chance to address that.
		Now, back to Hailbop and Mr. Cooper, I think.
		Okay, Mr. Cooper.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Cooper, when he rose above the signal to noise, first of all, Bill's background is fascinating.
		Naval intelligence.
		That will become very, very apparent later on this morning, why naval intelligence is a key to solving, finally, to cracking this puzzle wide open.
		He says something in that book, A Pale Horse, which is the most perceptive thing he said, and you can discount all the rest.
		He said, after Roswell, which has been discussed on this show many, many times, people up to and including astronauts, Ed Mitchell, raised in Roswell, raises Roswell now to a new level, citing it as most likely to have happened, i.e., alien spacecraft crashes, U.S. government picks up pieces, hides same 450 years, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Ostensibly, a document then surfaces decades later on a piece of film given to Jamie Shanderer, right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The 35mm cassette film.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is called the Majestic 12 document.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Relating to 12 people, the creme de la creme of policymakers gathered around President Ben Truman that decide how to handle this and to create a kind of a sub-Rosa government.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know I got to play.
		I got to play the part of one of those guys.
		I know all about the just.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Bill's insightful communication, which I think, frankly, was absolutely honest, was that we, all these years, those of us that have followed this, have not got what the real code name for this secret, secret project was and is.
		It was not and is not Majestic 12.
		It was and is magic 12.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So my little ID says magic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, magic is the key because magic is exactly what we're dealing with in the so-called litany of secret societies.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It is the connector between the Masonic link that we've now pursued all the way to the moon, all the way back through ancient Egypt, and the events that have taken place in the last week involving none other than President William Jefferson Clinton's little accident in Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you can even wind it all into that.
		All right, let me only qualify Bill Cooper in the following way.
		I followed him for years.
		I've never had him as a guest.
		And aside from an early disagreement that I had with him, I have found that through the years, Richard, he has talked about more and more and more things and has, in each case almost, reflected back to these 1970s briefings that he supposedly had, which become the source for so much stuff that nobody could remember all of it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's the problem I've had with Mr. Cooper.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the problem with people like Bill is that the more conspiracy you pile in more conspiracy without any tangible mechanism of testing.
		Remember, the cornerstone of what I and my colleagues are trying to do is to provide information that can be tested, that stands still.
		I would not be discussing this on the radio tonight, coast to coast, if I didn't have some very good new stuff that can be tested, and anybody can test it and come to their own conclusion.
unidentified		How?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, part of it has to do with this computer that's sitting here in my lap, which I'll get to in a few minutes.
		So the magic clue turned out to be very, very important.
		And I remember vividly that when this all kind of hit the fan for me, and I'm going to now go into a personal story because it is relevant, was the night that we returned, I and my colleagues, from our first trip to NASA, to Goddard, to the National Space Science Data Center.
		If you'll remember, a couple, three years ago, I took about eight people, ranging from technical people, photographic experts, geologists.
		I took some media people.
		I took a couple of producers.
		All of us, eight of us, spent two days at the National Space Science Data Center outside Washington, basically presenting them with the puzzles and conundrums and mysteries on their own data following my presentation at Ohio State.
		And it was at the end of that two days that the head of NSSDC was overheard by one of my folks to say to one of his folks, you know, Hoagland and his people are more scientific than some of the folks we have here at NASA, which was extremely heartening to me.
		And I have to say that he made a pledge to us that afternoon that he would keep the doors open, that any and all data we requested, we would get, and they have followed punctiliously to the letter that pledge.
		And we've gotten some marvelous confirmation from NSSDC, which have tried in a diminishing budget environment to provide this data to those of us who were pursuing interesting aspects to it.
		When I returned, remember, I came back with some priceless original film that they had given us.
		And it was in the process that very night, that Friday night in November of, I guess it was, what, 90, what was it, 94, 95, 94 maybe, when I had a drive into Manhattan to pick up this stuff from the lab where it had been kind of trans-shipped up from Goddard.
		And that night on the phone, I told one of my colleagues that I felt we had a major insight into who was trying to suppress and keep this information from the American people.
		And that it probably was not government.
		It probably was a secret group within government between agencies that owed allegiance more to its own process than to its official agency connections, i.e.
		magic, i.e.
		secret societies.
		And I specifically referenced Cooper's claim that Majestic 12 was really Magic 12.
		And I said Eureka, because 12, of course, is one of these so-called magic numbers.
		It's hyperdimensional, among other things.
		That very night, in New York, in front of the lab, all my material was stolen out of the car.
		The car was deathly broken into.
		Money that was in the front, you know, like patolls and stuff, was untouched.
		But my suitcases with the film, with the slides, with the hard copy, with the atlases, with a treasure trove of things that I had brought back from Goddard, some of which I'd taken down to Goddard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All gone.
unidentified		All gone.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And obviously I was very upset.
		And I had to do a presentation in New York two days later, and I was hard pressed to scramble among the spares and put together a credible visual presentation.
		So it's a Sunday morning.
		I'm standing up in front of these people at a hotel here in Manhattan, telling them this sad tale, when from the back of the room, a voice speaks up and says, Richard, I think we found your stuff.
		Now remember, we're in Manhattan.
		There's 8 million stories in the naked city, followed by 8 million lives, right?
		The idea that somebody coming to my presentation two days after this event had happened could have randomly found was, I was, needless to say, reasonably astonished and impressed.
		So it got even better.
		This individual turned out to be a friend of one of the staff people who lives in the back house in this compound here on the cliff across from Manhattan.
		And I had met him and his significant other at a couple of Christmas parties.
		So it wasn't even a total stranger.
unidentified		It was someone I knew.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the story they told me was that that Friday evening, which had been raining in Manhattan.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Coming up on a break.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		How much time?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very little.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We'll finish it after the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		All right, Richard.
		Stay right there.
		Interesting story.
		It disappears and then reappears.
		You know, I believe there is a statistic that says, or at least it used to be true, that you are generally robbed or killed, murdered, by somebody you know.
		Now, that may no longer be true, but at one time it was.
		From the high desert, this is the truly independent CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		The CBC Radio Network Answer your call in order on the air.
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		The CBC Radio Network He makes his way.
		Call Arch Bell.
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		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ah, it is indeed the CBC Independent Network.
		We own ourselves.
		Hey, everybody.
		Do you know that in America right now, 20 to 30 percent of everybody out there who wants a cell phone can't get one because they either have bad credit or no credit at all?
		Now I've got a big announcement to make.
		If you will go to my website, Pronto, right away, and go down to the Art Bell Radio Sponsors section and click on the Sea Crane Company.
		Finally, it's been a lot of work, but finally, the Sea Crane Company has got a full website up and all of the things that we talk about on the radio, including the Beijing free play radio, including the Sanjin line, and all the rest of these things.
		There are photographs up there for you to see.
		And for example, you want to see the Beijing?
		Fine, go take a look.
		Just jump right over from my website, go to the sponsor area and click on the Sea Crane Company, and over you go, and you can see the Beijing free play radio 119.95 day by day now because they're going to run out.
		It's a crank radio.
		You turn a crank on the side.
		And you turn it for 30 seconds, and it operates for 30 minutes.
		Not hyper-dimensional physics, but not far off.
		Not free energy, but not far off.
		The closest thing I know of that is demonstrated in a real product.
		An amazing item.
		AM-FM, shortwave, eight bands.
		Oh boy, does it ever work.
		And it's the quintessential emergency radio.
		When the power goes out, you go get the Beijing, and you're guaranteed to be receiving radio.
		The number is 1-800-522-8863.
		That's 1-800-522-8863.
		The Sea Crane Company, don't forget their brand new webpage.
		So if you want to see before you buy, go to my website and then over to theirs.
		That's www.artbell.com.
		This is a required reading for every American who has assets to protect, and the supply is limited.
		Remember, 1-800-877-9799.
		That's 1-800-877-9799.
		All right, my guest is Richard C. Hoglund, Engstrom Science Award winner, advisor.
		It went on to NASA science advisor to Walter Cronkite.
		And we are in the middle of something which we're going to have to finish, but I have just faxed to Richard.
		Thank you, somebody out there.
		And it's very hard to...
		But it looks like www.hfml.sci.ku n dot something n l or something hfml forward slash levitate dot html oh my god you know so who can follow that but i'm going to get this web address straightened out i just talked to keith you remember i was talking to you about uh nuts
		and frogs and things levitating, levitating in magnetic fields.
		Well, finally, finally, somebody sent it to me.
		I just faxed it to Richard Hoagland in Manhattan, and if Keith can find it, based on this very obscure address, we will get a link up on our website so you too can see it.
		I told you this story ran on CNN.
		I knew it.
		All right, back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, before I do this, let me say, there are some people that apparently are slightly irritated that I take so long to get to the point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are those.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are also millions of other people who know exactly what I'm doing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a very complex matrix we're trying to understand.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what I'm trying to do is give people a sense of the process.
		Because, look, I'm a voice on the radio.
		I could be saying anything.
		And there will be people who will believe me and people who will disbelieve.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What I'm trying to do is to lay a trail so other people can see the process that's gone into how we've arrived, where we've arrived.
		And if some people are upset with it, I have a wonderful suggestion.
		Turn the dial.
		Put a pillow over your head.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I tell them that all the time.
unidentified		Get some sleep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You don't belong listening to the Art Bell show if you don't have any patience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Bye.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I've been on this trail for 15 years, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If I have to spend another 15 years, I will.
		I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
		And the process, the journey, is as interesting as the destination.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let us try and get to the destination, or at least as far as you've come so far.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		The reason that I'm telling you this story is it has a punchline, an astonishing punchline that had a profound effect on my thinking and the direction of this entire investigation.
		Because on this Sunday morning, two people in the back of the room that I had met a couple times at a party hosted by one of our staffers claim that on that Friday night, two days before, when I had had my stuff viciously ripped off just a ride back from NASA, primarily dealing with the moon.
		This was the stuff that came in from the moon, from NASA, that they had come out of a brownstone that night a few blocks away.
		It was stolen on 20th Street and 6th Avenue.
		They were down on 14th Street, just off 6th Avenue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's not the interesting part.
		They came out of the brownstone, and there was a USA Today kiosk.
		You know how they sell newspapers in these little metal boxes now?
		We put a quarter in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You tip the lid.
		Okay.
		Out of the rain, underneath the USA Today kiosk, in front of this brownstone, were a set of slide boxes.
		They noticed them, because they were right in front of the door when they came out.
		They reached down, according to their story, picked them up, and began looking at them and noticed familiar things and realized who they may belong to.
		What really struck me was when they told me what they were doing in the brownstone.
		Because that night was their monthly magical ritual to the full moon.
		So I began very seriously wondering if somebody didn't want me to pay attention to this concept of magic.
		That, in fact, what we're dealing with is not a government conspiracy, but a conspiracy by a non-governmental group that transcends governmental lines.
		That owes its allegiance to something other than whoever pays the bills.
		And, of course, that led me in the direction of fraternal organizations, secret societies, and began an evidentiary trail and a learning curve that wound us up with a proof that we went to the moon according to the so-called magic Masonic pattern that traces all the way back to ancient Egypt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Egypt, Egypt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Egypt, I was going to say that, right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's why this process is critical.
		If you forestall the synchronistic events, if you are too narrow-minded, you have,
		have too rigid a set of blinders on you will miss the data for the trees mixing metaphors badly all right um look uh you mentioned hailbop you've left us hanging on that one long enough how does hailbob become involved here okay i don't know whether i want to do hailbop yet because there's been so much noise about hailbop Remember the show that you and I and Tom Van Flander did some weeks ago?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Where we discussed what I believe is the real importance of Hail Bob.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I advocated the possibility that this was an important messenger, an important celestial representative of the comet class for reasons having nothing to do with Charles Schramck and Saturn-like objects and all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But I asked Alan Hale about Van Flandren's ideas, and he doesn't buy it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is a picture on the web showing Halebop fragmenting into six separate objects that was taken in the last few days.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I've got six sets of images of it, and we've got it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's on your website?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We haven't put it up yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You haven't put it up yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Six separate objects.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Six separate objects.
		And it's far from the sun.
		It's not going to reach perihelion, which is where the tidal forces would be maximized.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, you're not going Courtney on me, are you?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm just telling you what this astronomer was able to photograph with a 16-inch telescope.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What astronomer?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Somewhere in Spain, I believe.
		And in the next break, what I'll do is I'll go over to our stack and I'll find out who the guy is, and I will read you his website, and everybody can log on, and you can take a look for yourself.
		This is just old, ordinary, old-fashioned astronomy.
		The fact is that with a decent telescope, a 16-inch telescope and CCD technology, there are now six objects around the nucleus of Halebob, which is splendid confirmation of Tom's model.
		And the only reason I bring it up is because it should get better.
		If this, in fact, is a set of true observations, as the nights progress, these objects will drift farther apart.
		They'll become clearer in smaller telescopes.
		Even in binoculars, you'll see.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I believe we are about two days from the closest path to Earth.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		All right.
		Now, let me tell you how I know this thing has been sent to us by somebody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, please, follow me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, if you want to know how you do this, all right, let's start from the terrestrial perspective.
		Let's start from the perspective of whoever is flying these vehicles that were recorded on STS-48.
		Or, I've got a fact that came in here from Bob Thomas a few minutes ago.
		Art or Richard, please comment on the following STS-80 report with video similar to STS-48.
		Could you forward this news to the list for me?
		Much appreciated.
		Sim, Bill Hamilton.
		Dear all, I just received video footage taken from the space shuttle Columbia, STS-80, which in some respects is more interesting than the previous STS-48 footage and will be harder to explain away in terms of so-called ice crystals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		For about a four-minute interval, all kinds of anomalous objects traverse Earth above the clouds and out into orbital space.
		One particular object appears to be a glowing disk that moves from right up the screen to about the center and then parts.
		A few seconds later, a second object bursts through the storm clouds below and starts trekking across the screen.
		Meanwhile, the first parked object begins to move back along the way it came, how's that for an ice crystal, and rises out of the Earth's atmosphere and looks like it comes up to meet a blinking object that seems to be moving in orbit.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'd like to see that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Other objects are seen that are dimmer, and blinking objects are seen moving above the clouds.
		Fast-moving objects with tails, presumably meteors, are seen streaking every which way.
		The STS-80 was in orbit 220 miles above the Earth and passing over areas of the Earth where there was a lot of thunderstorm activity on December 1st.
		This footage was recorded off the NASA channel, Channel 22 in Sacramento, California, by my friend John Maxfield on December 1st.
		Last night I took this tape to Jim De Latoso at Village Labs in Tempe.
		You know Jim, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And had him upload it to his computer for later analysis.
		He also made an SVHS copy from my VHS copy.
		We showed it to a producer from Strange Universe.
		I'm sure that everyone will get to see this fascinating footage soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Damn, I had a producer from Strange Universe on the show last night.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Also, a copy will be sent to Dr. Jack Casher, who evaluated the SPS-48 footage.
		Then we can await NASA's imaginative explanations.
		They will have to come up with more than just ice crystals for this one.
		Signed, sincerely, Bill Hamilton, Assistant State Director, MUFON, Arizona.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know what's been going on in Arizona lately, I presume?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I've heard rumors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can give you more than rumors.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, there have been things in the Arizona skies, unbelievable things seen in the world.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What is it on?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thousands of people.
		Well, you mentioned Bill Hamilton.
		He was one of the eyewitnesses to these things.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, just for the record.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, the reason that this is relevant is because whoever's controlling these vehicles, my premise is it's us.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's a small group.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Magic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Magic.
		That have access to technology and information and are as black as you can get and are far removed from the honest folks at NASA and even the honest folks at the DOD or the NSC or the NSA or the CIA.
		In other words, what you have is a compartmentalized system that is transgovernmental.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So what do you figure?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Bill Clinton asked about it and they broke his knee or one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, don't.
		That's dumb.
		It really art.
		Give me a break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm trying to have a little fun.
		Give me a break.
		You're talking about an organization so deep, so dark, it's only half a joke, Richard, that the President of the United States wouldn't be aware of it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe or maybe not.
		We will pursue the data and people can reach their own conclusions.
		My point is this.
		If this is a real technology, and we now apparently have an even better set of examples, and I obviously want to see this footage, and it's under our control, meaning Homo sapiens sapiens on planet Earth tonight, even if a small group of them, If you gave me the car keys to one of these vehicles and I'd invite you along, we could jaunt out to the Oort cloud.
		Let's presume there is an Oort cloud for the time being.
		We could find a nice iceberg, maybe 25, 30 miles across.
		We could then nestle up against it with our ultra-electrogravitic spacecraft.
		We could then gently turn on the power and nudge.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Begin to push it like a tug.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Like a small tug with Queen Mary.
		Across the river from me, there are huge ships, the QE2.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the aircraft carriers that come in and out of the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So where would we take it?
unidentified		What?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where would we take it?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, what you would do would be with a set of computers, you would compute the vectors, the direction in space, and the magnitude of the force you would have to apply to change this little Bergie bits orbit from whatever it was before, circular, billions of miles away from the sun, totally invisible to unaided human eye and or telescopes on Earth, to where it would begin a long fall toward the sun.
		And if you were as good at it as NASA has been at sending spacecraft all over the solar system for the last 30 years, you could, with that technology, adjust its orbit by nudges over a period of a few days or even weeks such that it would follow a prescribed path exactly as you want it.
		Creating a mathematical and geometrical message in the sky for those who know how to read the message.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, but why?
		The question is, why?
		What Richard Oakland is saying?
		For those who don't get it, he's suggesting that somebody manipulated something from the Oort cloud into a specific orbit, in effect, creating a comet, kailbop.
		Am I on track?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right, exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Furthermore, to send one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Furthermore, no, no, let me finish the thought.
		Furthermore, you would also, if you wanted this thing to be really, you know, a headliner, you'd want the world to know it was coming a long time in advance.
		So you would create an energy source.
		You'd leave something with it that would, you know, pulverize part of it and shake it up so that it outgassed and it created a cloud of ice crystals 650 million miles away from the sun, beyond the orbit of Jupiter, far beyond where any normal process could excite a comet even this big.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which it did.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But why would you do this, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because you are attempting to alert.
		Again, this is a model.
		I'm not saying this is what's going on.
		It also depends who you are, what your agenda is.
		But let's assume that your agenda is to enlighten.
		Your agenda is to inform.
		But your agenda is to enlighten and inform, kind of in the mode of the prime directive, a la Star Trek, where you cannot interfere, but you can sure damn well lay down clues and hope to God that somebody's bright enough to figure them out and put them all together.
		Which now, if that's what's going on, leads us in the possible direction of who might be doing this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's where we're going to hold it right now.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		And bless Keith's heart, my webmaster, Keith Rowland.
		He has found the frog which learned to fly.
		The information I have just passed on to Richard Hoagland.
		And if you'll go to my website right now, you can go see it for yourself.
		God, I've been looking for this story ever since it ran.
		Seeing is believing.
		They have a frog levitating.
		Now, how in God's name can magnetism levitate a biological organism?
		Well, if you want to see it, it's on my website now.
		Under latest news and items, you go take a look.
		As they say in the article here, seeing is believing.
		And during the break, Richard can take a look himself.
		You're listening to the independent CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		The End This is TRN and CBC, talk radio network and chancellor broadcasting company, home of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And my thanks to Keith Rowan, who lives the program the way I do, and he's right on it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've got a link up there on my website right now to the frog which learned to fly.
unidentified		Go take a look.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Pretty freaky stuff, folks, out of Finland.
		Magnetics one.
		Once again, to order 1-800-642-7221.
		All right.
		Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard, I understand what you have laid out with regard to how it could be done.
		In other words, the creation of a comet.
		And I even understand your reference to Star Trek and all the rest of it.
		But it seems like an awfully convoluted process to go through, and it's good theory.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you see, you have to understand how secret societies work.
		And that gets us back into the real metaphysics of enlightenment.
		You know, we live in a culture.
		This goes back to an earlier discussion we've had about boring people and having them turn off the radio and the dial and going somewhere else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, yep, yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We live in an instant gratification culture.
unidentified		I know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But we also, in this case, live in a culture where at 2 a.m. Pacific in about 20 minutes, the Eastern affiliates begin to lose the show.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, then we'll show it up on the tape replay.
		The tapes are available.
		The point is that real knowledge is not handed out on a silver platter.
		It's not on sightings.
		It's not on strange universe.
		You have to dig for it.
		And part of the pattern that after 15 years of doing this, I have discerned is that we have apparently two major forces.
		We have a camp that is out to suppress, that is out to keep us in the dark, to keep us down on the farm, to keep us thinking that CNN and NBC and ABC are all there is to reality.
		Then we have another camp.
		And again, I don't know who's in which.
		And that camp is seeking to uplift and expand our horizons and enlighten.
		But they're damned if they're going to hand it to us on a silver platter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We have to work for it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why do something as obscure as you're missing the point, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So far, yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It goes back to the idea of give a man a fish and he eats for one meal.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Give him a fishing rod.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, then he eats for life.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What you learn for yourself, what you figure out from your own consciousness, your own curiosity, your own intelligence, your own will, you own forever.
		It's yours.
		No one can take it away.
		That's why I refuse to be a guru, an authority figure.
		That's why I will bore people with process so they can do it themselves and make me obsolete.
		I am simply a person trying to find out the truth.
		But everybody listening to my voice can do exactly what we've done.
		All they have to really want is to want to know as much as I do, and then they can do exactly what we've done.
		There's no magic here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but how about a little science?
		In other words, you've laid out an interesting scenario with regard to Hailbob.
		Do you have one centilla of hard evidence or even less than hard evidence that I can't believe you're setting me up like this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do you really think that I would have opened my mouth and blown out on this whim if I didn't?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm just trying to have you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, of course not.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
		Okay, first of all, I have found the fragmentation Hailbop images.
		And Keith, if you're listening, they're at HB Magazine, which I presume is Hailbot Magazine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		At www.hailbop.com.
		There are a series of images taken by Michael Palamiti, P-A-L-E-M-I-T-I, showing possible fragmentation of the nucleus.
		A series of six CCD images of comet Halebop obtained by Michael Palarmiti on March 8, 1997 at 10.50 Universal Time using the Palarmiti Observatory's 16-inch 41-centimeter F4.4 Newtonian reflector.
		All right.
		Exposure times range from quarter of a second to half a second.
		This series of images shows the nuclear region divided into what appears to be four and possibly six individual nuclei.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The Van Flanwern model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The third and fifth frames have been processed using an unsharp masking function, that's a computer algorithm, to bring out the individual nuclei.
		Palermidi had first noted the nuclear region to be divided into nuclei on approximately February 4th, 97, then further subdivided into four nuclei on March 2nd, 97.
		He then noted six individual nuclei on March 8th, as indicated in the image above, but only four on March 11th, although poor to average weather conditions prevail at the time.
		The much-reported ripple wave pattern emanating from the nuclear region is also noted on some of the images.
		No recent reports on the comet have alluded to fragmentation of the nucleus.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But many more images taken at Palermede in February and March clearly depict the phenomena described above, signed Carlos E. Hernandez.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So, Keith, if you go to that website and put it up on ART and our website, we can find out from firsthand from an observer out there on the net, which is what the network can do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, now I've got to stop you.
		Fine.
		So, in other words, you have given us some evidence that Van Flandren might be right about the nature of comets.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that is a theory.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That is a model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a theory and model.
		Fine, all right.
		It may be true, and this may prove that, or go toward proving that, but it doesn't support the notion that intelligent something or another directed it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The two are not necessarily linked at all.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The thing that would prove that this is not a random astronomical, astrophysical occurrence, which of course everybody thinks it is, except for that tiny handful that think that the spaceship from Alpha Centauri is guiding it here and hiding behind it, all right, would be if we can find singular, unique, unusual parameters about this comet that simply are statistically, overwhelmingly improbable from any natural model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you have that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lay it out.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Let me start with the most interesting.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The comet is supposed to reach perihelion, which is the closest point to the sun, at 3.13 Greenwich time on April 1st, right?
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so-called April Fool's Day.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		When I learned that the comet Was going to reach perihelion sometime on April 1st, I got suspicious.
		Now, the reason for this is not because April 1st is, you know, a fool on you, that kind of thing.
		You have to understand the historical legacy of why we have an April Fool's Day.
		It has to do with a change in the calendar.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm restraining myself now.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Several hundred years ago, there was a change from the previous calendar to the Gregorian calendar, the one we use.
		And in the process of the change, several weeks got lost.
		And people in Europe, particularly in France, got very upset and incensed.
		They thought that the church had taken time from them.
		Not realizing that your biological time is irrespective of the damn calendar.
		And they got so upset that they started riots and demonstrations, and people got killed over this.
		And so the April 1st period was the time when the weeks disappeared, literally, into limbo.
		And so people who were operating on the old calendar and who didn't know that it was really the new calendar would be caught by other people and be made to appear to be the April Fool.
		So if we're dealing with a message model, the model is saying that something about time and about the calendar is critically important if Halebop was a carrier of this kind of information.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So April Fool's Day or April 1st is an important day numerically.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Critically, yes.
		Because what it says is it's later than you think.
		We think this is 1997, right?
		In fact, it's not.
		It's about 2001.
		All right?
		Now, there are certain calendars that are predicting certain events to come, right, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's implicit in this quote message.
		And again, it's just a model.
		So with that in the back of my mind, I'm looking at this prediction for the perihelion passage, the closest approach around the sun by the comet, by Hale and Bopp themselves in their book, which they published about a year ago, right?
		And they said at that time, based on the computer models and the observations, which were necessarily tentative, all right, that perihelion, the closest flyby of the sun, of the comet, at right angles to the Earth's orbit, 90 degrees, would occur at about 3.30 Greenwich time on the 1st of April.
		So, as you know, I've got this handy to any computer program, which has allowed us now to pinpoint that all the Apollo landings take place under very suspicious circumstances connected to Orion and Egypt and the Masonic tradition, par excellence.
		Should not be, but it is.
		Fact.
		Totally unrefuted by anybody because you can't refute it.
		The numbers and the pattern is there.
		So I ran the same program for Hale Bop.
		And lo and behold, I'm sitting here looking at the screen.
		I'm looking at April 1, 1997 at 3.13 a.m.
		And I'm looking at it from guess where?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Helsinki.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Helsinki?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Helsinki.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, the reason I chose Helsinki has little to do with the summit, which is taking place there tomorrow and the next day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I stop you for just one second?
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Audience, this is important.
		Go to my website.
		Keith heard what Richard said.
		I'm sitting here right now looking at this photograph of Halebop, which apparently shows, by my count, one, two, three, four, five, six, six pieces, Richard.
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll be damned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've never seen a picture like this.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Not from NASA, you ain't.
		Because NASA doesn't want you to know that comets are not what they have been telling us all these years.
		And in the message model, if Van Flanner is right, there is an implicit, overwhelming importance to figuring out what they really are and their real relationship to solar system and our terrestrial history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll buy that.
		I'm going to have to get Alan Hale on.
		I wonder what he'd say about this.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously, what you want is other observatories putting photos on the net that confirm this.
		Now, the fact that this guy has got six images and he's got other images in the database and he's listed, in other words, that's the kind of thing that real science is, independent confirmation.
		So we need to track this down.
		Let me continue.
		So I ran where one would look at the comet from Helsinki for reasons we'll have to explain after the next break.
		It was not a random choice, me picking Helsinki.
		It had nothing to do with the anti-gravity experiments.
		It had nothing to do with the flying frogs.
		It had to do with a first-person witness testimony that goes back hundreds, if not a thousand or more years, relating to the significance of Helsinki and Finland to some of the questions we have raised in our various discussions over the years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I do find it interesting that all of this research, including this story on this frog levitating, again, comes from where?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Finland.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Finland.
		And the anti-grab experiments?
		Finland.
		Yes, yes.
		So you're connecting all of this?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it will connect by itself.
		It's not that we're connecting.
		The data is converging.
		But I have been tracking on the significance of Finland and Helsinki for what you believe are 10 years.
		And after the break, I'll explain what I mean by that.
		This is not something I just thought up yesterday.
		But what I do, what I've tried to do in our investigation and try to get our other colleagues to do is to not go public with things that are not supportable until they mature.
		You know, it's the old, you know, Orson Welles line for Paul Gallo, we make no wine before it's time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You don't put the science out there until you can support it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I would like to congratulate Russell Spipe, who must have had to swallow 25 or 30 times before he dared put up this six-packed picture of Hailbop.
		And a lot of people who have listened for a long time will know what I mean by that.
		This is incredible.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it could get more incredible because we're still weeks away from perihelion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Young, young, young.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, typically, remember, I used to be at the Hayden Planetarium.
		I was in the heart of the Cahotec controversy, the so-called comet of the century, which wasn't, this is.
		Typically, comets don't fragment until they pass perihelion.
		They don't fragment weeks before they get to perihelion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		May I ask a dumb question?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If it is now fragmented, which this picture would seem to indicate, as it gets to its closest point to the sun, could some of those fragments then be pulled out of their present configuration?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they will, you know.
		They will slowly drift apart, and they may fragment into more fragments.
		Because remember what Tom's model is, that instead of dealing with one solid lump, a 25-mile chunk, we're dealing with smaller chunks whirling around each other under mutual gravity, much like gnats around a lamp in the early evening.
		And that as these whirling fragments approach the sun, as their center of gravity approaches the sun's gravity, that the sun's gravity will predominate over the individual fragments' gravity to each other.
		So they will wander off on their own, on separate orbits.
		And they will eventually draw far enough apart so that even with a relatively small telescope, you'll see empty space between them.
		A la, this set of photographs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this set of photographs.
		Okay, I think, you know, that's pretty supportable.
		What you're saying there is pretty supportable.
		I mean, the evidence is not a problem.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		See, if that's right, Art, it is the single most critical observation to date of Hale-Bopp and all of comets in all of history.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Except that it does not necessarily support the idea of intelligent direction.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, not at all.
		No, no.
		But what it does support is that the comet formation process is not, as NASA and the astronomical community have sincerely believed up till now.
		That in fact, if all these objects are whirling around each other and are drifting apart, not because they're torn from one solid object by massive tidal forces, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Richard, you would have to imagine, though, that both could be right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Van Flandren could be right in some cases.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no, no, no, because you're misunderstanding what he's saying.
		The standard model is that comets are bits and pieces that didn't quite get it together to form a planet in the snowstorm of the early forming solar system.
		Van Flandren's model is diametrically opposed.
		He is saying that all these objects, asteroids and comets, are derivative of a gargantuan, massive titanic, overwhelmingly catastrophic and tragic explosion of a planet with the fragments speeding outward in all directions from the center, like the Death Star scene in Star Wars.
		And that only under that set of explosive conditions, as the fragments are leaving the center of the tortured world, can they capture each other, a few of them here and there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, even with Van Flandren's model, there could be singular objects that, for one reason or another, did not attract something else.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the problem is that you're never going to know the origin of the single objects, but the multiplicity of orbiting objects guarantees that Tom is right and the other guys are wrong.
		Because there's no way to get whirling objects all whirling around each other in the snowstorm model.
		It has to be the explosion model, the catastrophic explosion of a single world model.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is really an intriguing photograph.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Why is it so critical to where we go from here?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why don't we have, by now, as close as Hailbop is, why don't we have more photographs confirming what this seems to show?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's a good question.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's a damn good question, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's why you get the big bucks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So that's where you leave me with that one, huh?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		But you should pursue the question.
		There should be people out there listening to us who were crawling all over the web looking for other pictures and asking the people who were putting up the major websites, where are the other observations.
		If Palermety is correct, I hope I'm not mangling his name too much, then similar photographs taken by other guys all over the world at the same time should show the same thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But they don't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, do they or don't they?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, not that I've seen so many.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		How many are we seeing versus how many are submitted?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm beginning to get quite a few from amateur astronomers now that it's close.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I can go out with a pair of binoculars, and to me, it looks like one hunko comet.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but to the naked, in other words, do you have to have really good seeing?
		Do you have to have really great desert viewing?
		Because is this close in around the nucleus?
		Which it would be.
		In other words, what's missing from this data is the scale of the pictures and the size in miles or in arc seconds or whatever of the individual fragments and how far apart they are.
		So maybe not every telescope can at that moment have seen it, but as it gets closer, remember, closest approach to Earth is on the 22nd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		22nd, 23rd.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		To Earth.
		That's in a couple of days.
		So now, this week and next week, we should get our best views, and this fragmentation will get better.
		They can never come back together, all right?
		So it can only get better.
		If it's fragmenting, it will be obvious to everybody in another week.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		On that note, we're going to have to end this hour, and I will take this time to say it's obviously going to be a five-hour program.
		So those of you who must leave, you can order tapes of this program by calling 1-800-917-4278.
		Let me give that to you again.
		Please copy it down.
		1-800-917-4278.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
		CBC.
		Are you comfortable?
		Call art bells.
		Poll free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-505-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is, and we have two items up on the website of immense interest.
		One of them is rather difficult to get to, and I have a feeling we're probably swamping their page.
		We put a link into their page, and it's probably beginning to internally hemorrhage with a number of hits.
		But it is molecular magnetism and levitation, or the frog which learned to fly.
		It's all about a frog and actually other things that were levitated in Finland.
		And that's on my website now.
		The link to it, www.artbell.com is where you want to go.
		And the other one is a new picture of Halebop, which seems to clearly show six separate orbiting pieces, which comprise what we are calling Comet Hailbot.
		Put up there by Russell Siph, incredibly by Russell Siphon.
		Somebody ought to ask him about, for some comment about that.
		Unbelievable.
		Richard Hoagland is my guest, and we will get back to him shortly.
		All right, now let's test Richard's sense of humor.
		This Richard is from a Ph.D. in San Diego, California, and it says simply, Dear R, Richard Hoagland's emphasis upon the Finnish or Finland connection can mean only one thing.
		We are approaching the Finnish line.
		Ah, you do have one.
		That's good.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's fantastic.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then in parentheses, bottom, it says, hail to the end of the age.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay, guys, you're sharp tonight.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		Where were we?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we were talking about hailbomb.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We were approaching the proof.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The first level of proof.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir, please.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, I've been suspicious, obviously, of this comet for a long time, but suspicions do not a summer make, right?
		And I have, you know, not basically said anything, unlike other people.
		You know, I've just kind of held my counsel and looked at the data.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it wasn't until the last week when things really fell into place, and I had reason to do some calculations that I had no reason to do before because there just didn't seem to be any rational connection.
		But when I started looking at the perihelion time, and for a whole bunch of other reasons I'll get to in a few minutes, the Helsinki location in Finland, which is at 60 degrees, 8 minutes north, in case anybody is wondering.
		The reason Helsinki is interesting is because 60 degrees is one of those magic tetrahedral latitudes that you get when you start placing those geometric objects inside planets.
		All right?
		You know, we start out with the simplest so-called platonic solid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I thought it was just 19.5.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, no, no, no.
		There are others.
		It turns out that 19.5 is the most common one.
		But if you look at what we call the higher order terms, there are other latitudes that also would be significant.
		Now, the only body in the solar system that evidences the kind of activity of the higher order terms that is readily accessible is this little moon around Jupiter called Io.
		Not Europa.
		The inner orange volcanic moon spewing its guts out, turning itself inside out, deep in the gravity well of Jupiter called Io, the one that was found to be incredibly volcanic, more volcanic than the Earth when the Voyager spacecraft flew by back in 1979.
		And I was at JPL, of course.
		It turns out that if you go to any astronomical text, a really good one, Patrick Moore's big flat coffee table kind of book is one that I use initially back in 88.
		It spits out the latitudes of the major volcanoes on Io.
		And that pattern of latitudes is precisely according to the higher order terms of the hyperdimensional model, which is putting the more complex platonic solids inside a sphere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's where people start going, huh?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, all right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know that you've got this simple pyramid, four-sided, four-corner, called a tetrahedron.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We've talked about it over and over and over and over again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you put a tetrahedron in a sphere such that one of the points is on the spin axis, the north to south pole, the other three points are at 19.5 north or south latitude.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There are more complex, what are called polyhedra, many-sided geometric forms that are symmetrical.
		There's the cube octahedron, there's the dodecahedron, et cetera, et cetera.
		If you put these more complex forms in a sphere, their vertices will touch the inside of the sphere at other latitudes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And one of those would be 60 degrees.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		that kind of thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so one happens to fall out of Helsinki, and you find that...
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, there's nothing volcanic going on in Helsinki, but the latitude itself, in other words, if we're looking at a political statement, which would take us back into history and why Helsinki got named where it is and all that, and we'll get into that in a few minutes.
		But what I'm trying to do without boring everybody with the details, which we can do in subsequent shows, once we've checked out a few more things, Helsinki was not a random thought.
		It also is almost due north of Giza.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was in Helsinki.
		It was a beautiful city.
		What is special about it, Richard, other than, okay, it's at 60 degrees.
		Drill into my mind why they chose that as the site for the summit.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's a speculation.
		It was ostensibly, I mean, it's been the chosen site for many summits and many international conferences.
		It is far more visible in the international field of diplomacy than Dayton, Ohio, for instance.
		Remember when we talked about Dayton?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Originally, this summit was to be held in Washington.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And then it got moved to Helsinki because Yeltsin was sick.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, Yeltsin's healthy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but here's what's so interesting.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If Yeltsin was that sick, why not do it in Moscow?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's true.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Think about it.
		Now, it's not that, oh, you've got to be on neutral ground and all that nonsense.
		I mean, these guys are beyond that.
		No, there is a significance to Helsinki that we have now discovered, which is so resonant to the big picture, what we are beginning to think has been going on for a long time, and how it is being resolved totally out of sight of television cameras and the normal discourse of international events.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which you believe is what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which we will get to.
		It's not something I can do in one evening, all right?
		But I can lay the groundwork and give people information as to get their own data to support this.
		But let me get back to one major conclusion.
		So Helsinki is not a random choice.
		So I figured out where, if I was standing, if you and I were to go to Helsinki in two weeks, April 1st, when Hale Bopp is zipping past the sun, at 3.13 in the morning, Greenwich time, is when closest approach to the sun of Halebop is supposed to occur.
		At that precise instant to the second, actually it's 3.13 and change.
		I can tell NASA when the comet will reach closest approach.
		And it'll be interesting to compare with the observations afterwards to see what happens.
		Because at that precise instant, within seconds of arc, which is a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny angle, Orion, remember Orion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Is precisely crossing the nadir meridian.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, it is the lead star in the belt of Orion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which means what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is, remember the meridian crossing of Orion in the Egyptian mythology is all important.
		Orion represents reincarnation, the rebirth, the beginning of the new cycle, the emergence of the phoenix from the ashes.
		It is the quintessential Christ before Christ.
		Thousands of years before the Christ mythos, which the Western world lives by, the Egyptians were modeling their own idea of reincarnating, of rising from death to be reborn, and imbued Orion, Osiris, Apollo, this constellation called Saha in the ancient Egyptian, with these attributes for reasons that are lost in the midst of time.
		Okay, Richard, let me...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm sure you're not done.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because the other critical point is at this precise instant over on the northwestern horizon, Leo, remember Leo, the constellation of the lion?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		To the Vol and Hancock is the Sphinx.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The heart of the lion, which is Regulus, that bright star, is precisely 19 minutes, 31 arc seconds above the horizon.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		19.5.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, folks.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What he's saying here, right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, please let me finish, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I thought that was it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Notify me when that's it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I certainly will.
		All right.
		Now, this object, Hailbop, is supposed to have a period 4,200 years long.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The way you calculate the odds of this being an accident is you take that number of years, multiply it by the number of days in a year, by the number of hours in a day, by the number of minutes in an hour, and the number of seconds in a minute.
		That comes, for those folks who don't have ready calculators, to be 1.3 times 10 to the 11th seconds.
		That's about 130 billion seconds.
		All right?
		Then you take the error, which is four arc minutes from the meridian, and you divide that error in terms of the one rotation of the Earth clock into that huge number.
		And that gives you the odds that this is merely accidental.
		Because since the orbit of Halebop in the standard NASA model is just a happenstance, all right?
		Just a chunk of ice orbiting the sun, right?
		For it to reach its closest approach to the sun precisely as Orion is on the meridian and Regulus, the heart of the Sphinx lion, is 19.5 degrees, 19.5 minutes above the horizon, there's an obvious, incredible statistical improbability here, right?
		It's an incredibly tiny fraction of time that this works.
		Well, the odds against that happening turn out to be 325 million to one.
		Now, I will go, I will fly to Vegas, all right?
		And if you will stake me 325 million to one, and we go into Vegas, all right, would you take those odds?
		Of course not.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vegas wouldn't be there if it took those odds.
		Exactly.
		But, Richard, now I've got to say something.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is a virtual certainty that this was designed, and it's not the only example.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I have more.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But can I say something?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People will accuse you of putting together...
		You can say two people are coming together at this point on Earth and look where Orion is and match it up to wherever, to something else or to some degree point.
		In other words, they will accuse you of screwing with numbers and saying, what are the odds that this and this and this will happen all at the same time?
		And you're picking the things and then assigning numbers to it.
		You can play that game.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, qualitatively, you can play it, but in terms of the actual numbers, you can't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because remember, the things that we've chosen here are not arbitrary.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, folks.
		So what Richard is really saying, if you didn't understand all of that, it really goes back to what's at Giza in Egypt.
		And what he's telling you is that what was found that we don't know about at Giza is driving everything that's going on in the black programs, the things we don't know about.
		And in fact, our government and other governments all are being driven by what was found at Giza.
		About right, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		About right.
		All right.
		Now, let me give you the second data point.
		Since this is so over, by the way, I didn't discover the 19.31 tonight, the 19.5 for Regulus, until literally when the show had started.
		I was sitting here with a computer.
		We were in a commercial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And I simply looked over and I happened to notice Leo on the horizon.
		And I thought, holy cow.
		And I looked, I did the program and I measured the angle, and it's exactly that angle, 19 minutes, 31 arc seconds.
		And that arc seconds will vary by a few arc seconds depending upon the exact time of perihelion, which they don't give us closer than a minute.
		NASA doesn't give it to us closer than a minute, 313.
		So in fact, it could be closer that I'm calculating.
		Now, again, the odds of 325 million to 1 are for the Orion crossing.
		If I now factor in the regulus, the 19.5, I have to back up the square one, do the odds separately, then multiply those two together.
		And I don't have time during the show, but I'll give you a ballpark estimate that it's like a billion to one.
		I mean, this quickly goes off scale in terms of being random.
		And the only rational explanation is that somebody has designed this.
		All right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, the next step was to look at the closest approach two nights from now to the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So remember our favorite place in the solar system that we have done a lot of hours on your show talking about.
		Tranquility based on the moon.
		We know that tranquility was deemed incredibly important.
		We know that the whole Apollo program now was fiddled around to pick that piece of real estate on the moon on that afternoon of July 20th, which has incredible significance for Orion and Sirius, and that what's called the duot.
		Refer you back to Graham and Hancock, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So I'm sitting here, and we're in the show in one of our breaks, and I thought, wonder if.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So I calculated if I'm standing at tranquility at the moment that this comet two nights from now passes closest to the Earth, which is about a little after one o'clock in the morning, Greenwich time, on the 23rd, but on the evening of the 22nd for us here in New York.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Guess what is precisely on the horizon of tranquility at that precise moment?
		Why?
		Sirius.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sirius, of course.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which is the key star in all of this.
		Because Sirius is Isis, Sirius, consort of Osiris.
		Sirius is the, in essence, mother of mankind, all right, by metonymy.
		And Sirius was the reason we landed there, a la Apollo, at Apollo 11.
		It was 19.5 degrees.
		In other words, Sirius also works two nights, you know, or two nights from now.
		Now, the odds against that being accidental, I could run, take another half an hour or so, and there'd be a lot of dead air.
		The point is that these two data points, three actually, totally convince me.
		Totally.
		There is no doubt.
		There's no room mathematically for doubt that this is designed.
		The question is, by whom?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And that is where the question shall remain for the moment.
		We'll come back and deal with more of this and what's going on in Egypt.
		We've got some news about Egypt that you may want to hear shortly.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		Well, I think it's time to get ready To realize just what I have found I have been lonely AF300 KST3.
unidentified		Hi, Rookie here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		and I recently took my car into Jiffy.
unidentified		Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard Line at 702-727-1295.
		That's 702-727-1295.
		First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Now, here again, Art Bell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, those with computers better get up to the website and take a look at this new photo of the comet.
		It's a mind-blower.
		Oh, my.
		And then the frog.
		Absolutely unbelievable.
		All right, look, I've got a big announcement here.
		As you know, we're going on a cruise to Alaska.
		And boy, are we going on a cruise to Alaska?
		October 23rd, we're going to Alaska.
		October 1st, actually.
		October 1st, we're going to Giza.
		The Great Pyramids of Giza.
		That cruise is all booked.
		You can get on a waiting list.
		That's about it.
		Maybe you can go, maybe.
		And we're almost booked for Alaska, the 23rd.
		We meet in British Columbia, Vancouver.
		What a place.
		We get on board a brand new princess ship, brand new called the Dawn.
		The Dawn Princess.
		And we sail the famed Inside Passage to Catchkin, Juneau, Skagway, then ride on up to the towering face of the ice fields in Glacier Bay National Park and Majestic College Fjord.
		And then we go to Interior Alaska.
		This is where the wimpy Alaskan cruises and the real ones are separated.
		When we get to Seward, we go to Anchorage, board the Princess Cruise's luxurious Ultra Dome railcars, and head on the Alaska Railroad to Denali National Park and then Fairbanks.
		I mean, this is the trip of a lifetime, and guess what?
		They've got financing now.
		There's financing.
		They call it the Love Boat Loan.
		I don't know a lot about it yet, but I just got word yesterday that they can immediately, virtually immediately, finance you to come on this trip.
		It just happened, folks.
		So look, the trip is about booked.
		You better jump on this immediately.
		East of the Rockies, call 1-800-633-2732.
		Let me give that number to you again.
		I hope you're jotting it down.
		1-800-633-2732 west of the Rockies.
		It's 1-800-848-7120.
		That's 1-800-848-7120.
		Financing part of it is brand new.
		It's pretty cool.
		So there you go.
		Richard Hoagland back in a moment.
unidentified		50.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Find out how it can be part of your IRA or retirement account.
		It's Opportunity Knocking Again, 1-800-444-1050.
		All right.
		In a moment, I've got a fax here from Ed Dames, Major Ed Dames, about Hailbop.
		Are you making 6-0?
		And a brief detour, but not that far, to the world of remote viewing.
		And Major Ed Dames, this just cleared my fax machine, Art.
		As promised, here is a Hailbop spot report.
		One, in a process strangely similar to that of mitosis, in other words, biological cell division, the Hailbop Comet has recently split into two almost equal asymmetrical parts, A and B. Two, Hailbop A will undergo a radical change in trajectory, turning away from Earth.
		Hailbop B will continue along an Earth, that was, I'm sorry, Hailbop A will undergo the radical change.
		Hailbop B will continue along an Earth-grazing trajectory, possibly affecting minor geophysical change.
		There is a form of intelligence at this.
		There is a form of intelligence associated with this astronomical phenomenon, the nature of which SciTech has yet to establish.
		Technical remote viewing is continuing.
		Signed, Ed Dames.
		Richard, you're back on the air again.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hi there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Would you like a one-word reaction to that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's bunk, huh?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		In fact, total bunk.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Look, Ed Dames has tried to get me to spend money on his remote viewing for years.
		He sent all kinds of people years ago to try to get me to use him to remote view Sidonia.
		And I kept turning him down because it will not work.
		The major falsity of remote viewing is if we're dealing with extraterrestrial intelligences, the first thing you learn in military school, you know, spy 101, is protect your lines of communication.
		If someone doesn't want us to know the truth, then obviously they can feed you through this technology false information par excellence.
		And you'll never figure it out.
		The numbers don't lie.
		If you follow the numbers, if you follow the trajectories, if you follow the pattern, forget trying to figure out the motives yet.
		Just look at the pattern.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The pattern can be counted upon because the pattern is reconstructable by anybody.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, Richard, Richard, I will say this, all right, and at least give them this much.
		For months and months and months, maybe better than a half year, he has been saying what he said in point three here.
		There is a form of intelligence associated with this astronomical phenomenon, the nature of which they don't yet understand.
		But you have said the same thing.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm saying somebody sent this object, nudge it on the right trajectory, to give us a lesson in history which now is bringing a lot of separate pieces of data together, which I intend To do myself in the next few minutes, all right?
		Why am I intrigued with Halebop?
		Other than this is incredible coincidental geometry and celestial mechanics, and it obviously can't be coincidence.
		The reason is, back to the Van Flander model.
		For the last 15 years, as you know, we've been trying to figure out Sidonia and then the moon, and from this we're led to this physics, this hyperdimensional physics, which turns out to be a rediscovery of the work that Maxwell and his colleagues, Lord Kelvin and others, were proposing a century ago, which would have led us in some stunningly important directions.
		Ultimately, this is a physics that can literally push planets around, move worlds, reorder stars.
		I mean, there's no limit to what this can do.
		So why don't we have it?
		Because we went in another direction.
		For some reason, and there are a number of physicists who are now beginning to discuss among themselves, there's a book called The Vortex by two young physicists out of England that I just got a copy of.
		They're beginning to wonder why we took this weird turn, why we aren't much farther down the hyperdimensional road that Maxwell and others were starting us upon than we are at this present moment tonight.
		The answer seems to lie in that someone or something does not want us to have at our disposal these kind of capabilities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Best guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, because it's like giving, you know, H-bombs to 10-year-olds.
		This is powerful stuff.
		This can literally rip apart worlds, as apparently, if the Vath Lantern model is pursued and turns out to be correct, someone did.
		Now, let me tell you where our knowledge base lies tonight, the reason that I'm so intrigued with Hailbop as a possible message, as a possible vehicle of enlightenment, of information, a mechanism to decode more of our own past.
		If we're correct, if Van Flanner is correct, and a planet was blown to Kingdom Come by intelligent, and that's an oxymoron, forces, circa 65 million years ago, which of course did in the dinosaurs,
		all right, then the effects of that destruction of a major member of the solar system we are still living with, in our model, the shattering of that planet and the spewing of the ejecta out into the outer reaches of the solar system resulted in such a change in the overall configuration of the rest of the planet,
		in their hyperdimensional relationship to each other, that it began a series of physical processes that ultimately have led to a series of catastrophes for the various planets of this sun.
		Now, that would be a kind of an academic point, were it not for the fact that we live on one of those planets, which is why I went to see the Hopi elders a couple of years ago and have taken a deep but very quiet interest in this whole idea of global cataclysmic catastrophe.
		And I'm intrigued as heck with the fact that we now have a physical model which can give us a mechanism for this kind of a massive change.
		And we also apparently have visible embers of the beginning of such a change which somebody wants us to pay attention to, to begin to see how the threads draw together.
		But we have to do our homework.
		This is not being handed to us on a silver platter.
		This is not somebody sitting in a darkened room saying, oh, I see this, I see that.
		This is hard science.
		This is going to require testing, observation, sifting of a vast range of material, including a vital new aspect of our own research, which is the ethnography.
		This brings me now to Helsinki.
		Because what we now have from Helsinki, which I've been quietly working on for about 10 years, a little bit after I started looking at the Mars data, I realized that if this data was true, if we were looking at artifacts left in the solar system by somebody, the odds were that it probably was us.
		It wasn't aliens.
		It wasn't boogeymen out of the whatever.
		It was probably a facet of human civilization in a bygone era with which we had lost complete contact.
		And that, of course, completely flies in the face of the Victorian model that we're the best and the brightest and the smartest kids on the block.
		This unending line of progress that we've been sold, that we're all there is and we're the epitome of everything that ever was.
		Well, the shattering thing to the human ego is if we're barely climbing back after thousands of years from some global catastrophe.
		And we're not as smart as the guys before us and the guys before them and the guys before them that also went through this wrenching, shattering catastrophe.
		And each cycle tried to build back and put together the pieces of who it was and what it is doing in this place before suddenly, out of the blue, whatever happened, happened again.
		Now, logically, you'd expect if that model has any reality, then the guys that went before might try to leave the guys that were going to come after a set of clues.
		A, that it was going to happen again, and B, what might be done to avert it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To avert it, yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That's what we've been quietly working on.
		Are there any realistic clues?
		And I must tell you that there is a book which I found by happenstance by John White called Pole Shift.
		Now, John White has rejected his thesis in his own book for reasons that I have found increasingly intriguing and curious.
		Because what John himself does not know is that in his own voluminous research in that book, not in the psychic stuff, not in the Aeryfairy stuff, but in the hard science stuff, the stuff from the U.S. Naval Observatory that he reports, there is a vital clue to the physics and the process of a polar alteration.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My understanding of a pole shift is that if it occurred, A, it would occur very quickly.
		Yep.
		B, it would produce geologic changes, winds in the area of 800 miles an hour possibly, virtually erasing most vestiges of any civilization, even industrial, that might be present.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And any artifacts.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Certainly any evanescent artifacts like wood-frame houses and steel skyscrapers.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly gone.
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		However, man-made mountains might survive.
unidentified		Might.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Man-made mountains, i.e., pyramids.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Massive, mega-architecture, millions of tons of limestone carefully stacked in precise geometrical and coded mathematical configurations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe even faces on Mars designed to be seen from space.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but that's on the other world.
		We're only thinking about the Earth right now because that's where we are.
		So working on this model quietly, you can imagine how intrigued I was that Graham Hancock, who I'd never met, is reading our work and is thinking along parallel lines.
		And he and Baval and I really now seem to be coming down to the, pardon the pun, finish line.
		All right.
		And we now have a date when this last major catastrophe appears to have overtaken a much more sophisticated humankind, the last cycle, the last era.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When do you think that was?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, 13,000 years ago.
		Now that is not a random number.
		That turns out to be quintessential in the hyperdimensional model, in the astrophysics, in the celestial mechanics of the Earth, the so-called processional cycle.
		And when you begin to look at the solar system as an integrated system where the spinning and whirling and orbiting of all these masses in the hyperdimensional level, at the level of the ether, has an effect upon each and every other body together, synchronized, like a watch, like a well-oiled watch.
		Except it's not well-oiled.
		It's a watch that's progressively out of tune.
		It's a machine that is increasingly in dissonance.
		Used to be in resonance.
		Then you took out a major player, a major planet, bang, blew up one day, 65 plus million years ago.
		And that has had a shattering effect on the wholeness of the rest of the system ever since.
		And the system in this model has been getting progressively out of tune.
		Now, if you were either a fragment of the human family that was not trapped here when this catastrophe took place and was living on some other star system or had colonized the nearer parts of the Milky Way, or you were a friendly alien species that simply didn't like to see people periodically destroyed en masse, maybe, just maybe, you'd figure out a way to tell those folks down there something of their own history.
		But suppose there's a precept that you can't hand it to them on a silver platter.
		You've got to give it to them in a form that when they figure it out, they own it.
		It's theirs, because there's this enormous roadblock called academic institutional science against accepting any new thing unless it comes from the ground up, unless it's born of and bred of the human consciousness process itself, in and of the culture.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And here is where Richard Hoagland meets the metaphysical.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not really metaphysical.
		Well, it really is because there's astrophysical stuff that can be measured.
		It can be complicated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that is where we enter the realm, in a sense, because you're talking about an enlightenment that has to be realized through virtually symbology.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, but we also know there is now, and I'm learning more about it every day, and I'm meeting more people who are part of it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know, you'd be amazed at the number of people who are part of some damn secret society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I wouldn't.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what's really intriguing, Art, is when you start to look at what these people hold near and dear, their most sacred inner traditions that they think nobody else knows, they all turn out to be the same traditions and they all turn out to be tetrahedral, i.e.
		hyperdimensional.
		Reduced to their, even to the clothing they wear, the secret handshakes.
		I mean, it's getting exquisitely confirming that someone has tried at many different levels to pass this information on and preserve it within the human family here on Earth.
		So that brings up Finland again, Helsinki.
		Because in this model, if after the planet was blown, the kingdom come millions of years ago, the metaphorical, if not physical, shockwaves are echoing down the halls of time.
		And periodically, for reasons that I don't have time to get into tonight, the Earth has to kind of readjust itself to allow for increasing dissonance in the system, increasing disharmony at the level of the physics itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think it's observed in what I call the quickening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's exactly right, because the thing which kills us off also makes us smarter, and it's a race between getting really bright to figure out what to do versus staying dumb and letting it happen again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A death and a birthday.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And exactly.
		And someone has left us clues.
		Now, when you read Baval and Hancock, what they have figured out from the Egyptian text is that there is an actual body of folks, real guys, called the followers of Horace, who, if you read the text closely, after the catastrophe, took it upon themselves to rebuild that which had been lost.
		Now, imagine the intestinal fortitude, the moral certainty, the level of integrity required to plan not for two years or four years, the election cycle, or 20 years, a generation, but for thousands of years.
		A small group of, think of them as priests or monks or initiates or whatever pass on from father to son or daughter to mother to daughter or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Guardians.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Guardians.
		Building because they have preserved a stash of information from before the catastrophe.
		And they then try to feed back at some level information at what they think is the appropriate time to help this process of re-civilizing a bunch of savages gone wild in the wake of an awful catastrophe that we can only imagine.
		And then you have to get to where would this group have started from?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The trouble with this whole model, to use your words, or your word, is that if this incredible information existed, instead of guarding it through generations and guiding it, you would present it as the holy grail.
		Here it is.
		You want to avoid catastrophe?
		On a world scale, we can do it.
		Here's the information.
		Why keep it secret?
		Why have a secret little handshake and a cabal to guard this for generations and try and gently move us towards some sort of resolution?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Why not just, as with all of the things human, what starts out with the noblest of principles decays in and of itself and it becomes only empty ritual.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The folks who practiced it have forgotten themselves what it was supposed to be for.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard, hold tight.
		We'll be back to you, and we are going to go to the phones next hour.
		Art, I managed to get to your website and to the links concerning the frog and hailbomp.
		Yikes, the ramifications of levitation of biological beings are tremendous.
		I suggest you go up to the website and take a look, too.
		This is CBC.
unidentified		CBC.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Health Beat.
unidentified		Health Beat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		AM 1500 KSTP.
unidentified		AM 1500 KSTP.
		Call Art Bell toll-free.
		West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-8255.
		East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
		1-800-825-5033.
		This is the CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		My guest is Richard C. Hopeland.
		And we are talking of many things, and we are going to get the lines open shortly and let you talk to Richard.
		It has been absolutely a fascinating night, hasn't it?
		863-1-800-522-8863.
		Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard, I would like to be able to get some phone calls and questions for you before the show ends.
		Can we do that?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maybe and maybe not.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We've got a little more ground to cover here because I want to bring some things together because I've got some loose ends, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so let's.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Timely loose ends.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, tie them up if you would, please.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		See, we can do it in a week or two when more data points come in, we can do another show where we take mostly questions.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I hear you, but I want to get some in tonight.
		They're dying.
		I mean, all the lines.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They're dying?
		Well, gosh, Art, your audience is going away.
		Where do we leave off?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All the lines are full.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just want to be able to answer a few of them.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Where do we leave off?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, the idea, you can't somehow bring yourself to quite believe that there can be a core group that might be doing this, and it devolves into all this weird kind of ritual symbology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, grab it, be enlightened, understand slowly what's happening.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But keep in mind that there is a tremendous body of academic study in our era that says that this is what happens to human culture over and over and over again.
		Let me give you an example.
		During World War II, in the Pacific, the Western whites, us, for the first time landed on all kinds of atolls and islands, my father included, all right, and in an effort to stave off the incursion of the Japanese, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, my dad was at Guadalcanal, yes, I know.
unidentified		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And what we did is we brought in ships and men and supplies, and we overnight transformed these isolated, in some sense, idyllic paradises into bustling metropolises in the middle of a vast ocean.
		And then the war ended.
		And all that had come with that incredible activity suddenly went away.
		And in the wake of the disappearance of us white guys, many of the islanders created effigies, symbols of the planes and ships.
		They put planes, you know, biplanes, up on cliffs in an effort, they were called cargo cults, in an effort to symbolically lure back, to make happen again through the outward form, the substance of what had taken place and had made them briefly very well off with a lot of material goods.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Paramagic.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		It was a magical ceremony.
		Now, if you look at the history of magic, you know, which is basically trying to, with will and symbols, make the universe do what you want it to, it's a very ancient human trait.
		We see evidence in caves.
		We see evidence in modern, so-called primitive societies.
		We see evidence on Madison Avenue.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I follow the thread.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		My point is that if you're looking at something so overwhelmingly horrific as the destruction of most of humankind and eradication of all culture, and a tiny band of civilized folks with technology left in the middle of desolation trying to enlighten their brethren as to what civilization can someday be again.
		One can easily imagine, and there's some excellent stories and novels out there, The Earth Abides by George Stewart.
		I read it, you know.
		A brilliant, wonderful, evocative book about how difficult, remember how they thought optimistically it'd be like, you know, a few weeks and then a year or two and all that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And by the end of the book, it's obviously generational.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the trappings, those bridges, which I lived near, I never thought when I read the book, which I read in Washington when I was outside working for NASA, that I would someday live in Berkeley and I would go across back and forth to the city over those bridges.
		And those bridges became the symbols of the persistence of the human spirit in the face of overwhelming tragedy to rebuild and to rekindle and to go on.
		And it's a stunning book, and that's in microcosm what we're talking about here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But how do we know, Richard, sticking with your model for a second, that there have not been an endless chain of times that humanity civilized has come and gone with the same stupid little secret cabal trying to give hints and little hints and symbology to those who were civilized or else, and they didn't get it, and so they died.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I understand exactly where you're going.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the danger of secret knowledge is that ultimately it winds up being possessed by only a few.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it winds up being passed on to an initiated inner circle, the chosen ones.
		And everybody else, you know, the devil with the hindmost.
		And unfortunately, maybe we're seeing that degradation again.
		Which is why it's important to democratize this and get it out in the open so we all can figure out what we're dealing with and do something.
		And that's what this investigation is dedicated to.
		I am not championing the cause of secrecy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If in the end, you're right, they'll kill you longer.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, they will.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure, they will.
unidentified		No, they won't.
unidentified		Sure, they will.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you why they won't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because if that were to happen, then a whole bunch of people who were sitting out there listening to me and saying, oh, come on, would suddenly get very interested.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the last thing you want is for a whole bunch of folks in the era of the internet to get very interested in anything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		They killed Kennedy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But Kennedy was 30 years ago.
		All right?
		And we have progressed light years culturally, globally, beyond.
		Remember, the Cold War is gone.
		The evil empire is gone.
		There is a brilliant object out there tonight that is coming on a timetable that somebody has set on a course to tell us some important clues.
		Now, let me tell you how it impacts immediate history.
unidentified		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because I've now run the same calculations for the summit.
unidentified		Guess what?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The summit takes place, all right, tomorrow night, begins, at precisely the equinox, when the Earth's axis is at right angles to the sun.
		And Orion and Sirius are straddling precisely the meridian, due south on the meridian from Helsinki, and Hailbob is standing in the western sky at precisely 90 degrees to the Orion-Sirius connection, the Dewan.
		And the summit was slipped by one day, was it not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And why was it slipped?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Because something happened to Bill, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The knee.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me now put a few threads together here.
		And I have to pick my words carefully because we don't have a lot of time, and I've got to do this very judiciously.
		About 10 years ago, I was invited to participate in an archaeological expedition in, of all places, Finland.
		And I was invited to put in money and to receive information in return for my, you know, largesse, helping with a number of other people fund an excavation of a site on a private farm outside of Helsinki.
		And I hadn't a clue as to the significance of any of this, except for one datum that struck me even then.
unidentified		This was in 1988.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We had just figured out the geometry of Sidonia, and we had just connected it with the hyperdimensional tetrahedral models.
		And the location of this proposed ancient archive of ancient stuff was at one of those key latitudes, 60 degrees north of the equator, almost due north of Giza.
		And for that reason, I persisted.
		I got very intrigued.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, due north of Giza would be Helsinki.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		That's right.
		Anyway, to make a long story short, we put in $3,000 or $4,000, and the folks involved in the project kind of all disappeared.
		And except for some video, nothing ever came of it.
		That's 10 years ago.
		Because of events that have happened in the last couple, three weeks, I have now gone back and I have reviewed all those tapes, which are the tapes of an etymologist reciting a family history from Finland, which was made public for the first time in 1984.
		And in a future program, we will get into the details of this saga.
		But what I discovered literally this afternoon is that in the 10 years since I became involved and began looking at this as possibly a link to the data on Mars in terms of a terrestrial connection, in terms of a repository of something before a proposed catastrophe.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which Arthur C. Clarke now says he doesn't believe, by the way.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		But why has Arthur changed his mind when there's no new data?
		Okay.
		I have found that there is a website at a major university providing all this information in written form.
		And that that website, after years of inactivity, suddenly on the 13th of March, was updated.
		And will be updated again tomorrow.
		And what we're going to do is we're going to provide a link through our site at Enterprise Mission to this site.
		And we will provide details, we'll provide background, we'll provide photographs to, in a nutshell, encapsulate what I'm trying to say is in this family history, which has been passed down in this family, unbroken for at least the last thousand years,
		and we suspect it's much longer, is contained the representation of the history of mankind since the catastrophe which destroyed the planet Van Platter is talking about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's some good reading.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's a hell of a read.
		But what's really important is that the numbers and the correspondences to the physics and the history we have begun to figure out seem to be there.
		And what this history does is to make critically important the spot of land on which was ultimately built and established Helsinki.
		And it basically says that those people in Finland and in the Nordic lands of which my own ancestry comes from Sweden were the survivors of the catastrophe that wiped out most of the rest of the world and from which the rebuilding came forth,
		including expeditions to Egypt and the construction of the time capsules we think of as the pyramids on the Giza Plateau.
		And the cross-correlation of the ethnography and the amount of scholarship that is now being brought to this is the only reason I'm even mentioning it, because it's beginning to tie together.
		Now, let me propose to you the following idea.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, and then, please, you've given them so much to chew on, Richard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let him ask a few questions.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, these are the final connecting threads.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If there was such a thing as a global axis tilt, which would be the whole axis in inertial space in our physics, like an atom flipping, all right, not the crust sliding over the core, as Hapgood has proposed, but the whole axis tilting suddenly in the period of 24 hours, one rotation, to a new angle relative to the sun and its own orbit.
		The resultant catastrophe in the geology, winds, waves, all that, are well modeled by John White's book, all right, and many others.
		It is most likely that the only survivors of such a catastrophe would be seafarers, either in ships or in submarines.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Water world.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The navy.
		The navy of the world.
		Whatever navies you can imagine.
		Whatever civilization there is going or has been.
		Remember the Phoenicians in recent history?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		The seafarers that spread culture around the world?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We can believe Barry fell.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		We have maps from Hapgood, the so-called maps of the ancient sea kings.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know about those.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If there was, and I know the Air Force at Westover Air Force Base, where I used to live, checked them out in the 60s and was saying, you know, Charlie, you're on to something.
		All right?
		There's something here that's kind of bizarre.
		It doesn't fit.
		And the consensus was then and is now that those maps are derivative of much earlier maps from a technology that was not equaled until the 18th century, a global waterborne civilization.
		Now, if we're imagining such an extraordinary catastrophe, then what do you have on every ship?
		What is the absolute essential to be a decent submariner or mariner?
		What do you have to have with you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Navigation.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Maps.
unidentified		Maps.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Navigation, yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Which means that if we're left with any actual physical traces of that before time, the mariners would be the ones most likely to have the navigational cartography of the world the way it looked before the shift, before the film.
unidentified		Yes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Now we fast forward the film.
		Remember Bill Cooper.
		Remember him saying it's Magic 12.
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember the origins of the U.S. Navy.
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember John Paul Jones.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Does the word Scottish Rite mean anything to you, Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Vaguely, yes, I am.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Scottish Rite Mason.
		John Paul Jones was a Scottish Rite Mason.
		The founder of the modern Navy was part and parcel of an ancient tradition that we can trace back through ancient Egypt and who knows before, and it connects to this familial legend.
		The originators of the legend appear to have been ancient, ancient seafarers, the old navy of the time that went before.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I can imagine that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So imagine the night of Thursday, March 13th.
		I'm standing here, here in Weehawken, and I'm doing something incredibly mundane.
		All right?
		I'm doing something actually at the sink, I believe.
		And there's a TV on, and I can't see the TV, and Suddenly, a commercial comes on, and it says, and the winner is Magic Goes Home.
unidentified		Call Old Navy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, hold it right there, Richard.
		When we come back, we are going to make Richard answer some phone calls.
		And I want to thank all of you who have been patient on the lines.
		We are going to get to a few phone calls.
		We'll lay out all of this a little bit later.
		From the high desert, you're listening to the Independent CBC Radio Network.
unidentified		The Independent CBC Radio Network.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		little new bumper music for you.
unidentified		The amazing way The amazing way I can't fall.
		I can't say five without your love.
		Oh, baby.
		Don't leave me away.
		I can't accept your friends here.
		Don't leave me there.
		This is TRN and CBC, Talk Radio Network and Chancellor Broadcasting Company, home of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
		The Talk Station, AM 1500 KSTP.
		Hey, anybody sitting with you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		70-4627.
		You've got nothing to lose but the fat.
		All right.
		Back now to Richard C. Hoagland.
		Richard, you've given these people enough to think about for 100 years.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, we're not done yet.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		There is something now that you have to do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I want you to dial the following phone number and put it on the air.
		And I want everybody within the sound of our voice to do the same thing.
		If you miss it, and we're going to play it a couple of times.
		If you miss it, you can do it yourself.
unidentified		All right?
unidentified		Do you have a pencil?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've got a pencil.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		1-800.
unidentified		Right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Old Navy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What are the numbers to that?
unidentified		I don't know.
unidentified		I don't have the phone in front of me.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do you have a phone in front of you?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I do, but every line is jammed with people wanting to ask you questions.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You must have a line that goes out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Put on me here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let me try it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		1-800 Old Navy, huh?
unidentified		Old A-O-L-D-N-A-V-Y.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		N-A-V-Y.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Hold on.
		Okay.
		I'm going to try this.
unidentified		Thank you for calling Old Navy Clothing Company, and welcome to a whole new way of shopping for your family.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that the one, Richard?
unidentified		Yep.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Are you recording?
unidentified		Short-sleeved plaid shirts for men are the item of the week.
		Just $16.50, regularly $19.50.
		Limited to supply on hand through March 20th.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm doing a commercial ring.
unidentified		For your nearest store locations and phone numbers, press one.
		Okay.
		For information about payment methods.
		That's it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Now, what you just heard is an interesting code.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Did you recognize anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Old Navy.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, let's start.
unidentified		All right.
unidentified		What was the second part of the code?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Short-sleeved Scotch plaid shirts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And they were marked down to $16.50 from what price?
unidentified		I didn't get that.
unidentified		$1950.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		$1950.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		$19.5.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I get the numbers.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Now, the Scotch plaid refers to the Scottish Rite.
unidentified		All right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So what I did is I took the 1650 as Greenwich, as Zulu time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the sale is from now to the 20th, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		The 20th, of course, is the equinox.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		So I input all this to the computer, 1650 Greenwich time, Helsinki.
		And of course, Orion and Sirius are on the meridian.
		Hailbop is 90 degrees, and it's precisely at sunset.
unidentified		Now, here's the test.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I believe that something happened the evening of the 13th and the morning of the 14th.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And that what this is and was, was a call to the inner circle, magic, go home, because that was the code in the commercial, which only ran twice nationwide on NBC.
unidentified		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Old Navy is a derivative of the gap chain.
unidentified		All right?
unidentified		There are several hundred stores around the country.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They are losing money.
unidentified		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		They are losing money big time.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Did you ever watch The Man from Uncle?
unidentified		Yeah.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Remember how you would get down to control, you would go into this little dilapidated dry cleaner store, and you'd go past the guy at the counter and you'd pull the third coat rack from the left, and you'd go down in the elevator?
unidentified		All right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		What I want the folks within the sound of my voice to do is to go, you know, call that number again, 1-800-OLD Navy, find the nearest Old Navy store to your location and show up tomorrow, the 20th.
		Now take a tetrahedron or an equilateral triangle, go to the store manager and say, we're here for the meeting and see what happens.
		Now, in order to do this, you have to really want to know.
		This is what's going to happen.
		If I'm right, thousands of people all over the country who are not part of the inner circle, who simply show up and do this, are going to throw the absolute Jesus into the inner circle.
unidentified		If I'm wrong, nothing will happen.
unidentified		All right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But the fact is, it's time for the secrets to end.
		It's time for the codes to come out.
		It's time for us all to share in whatever is going down.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You've got it out.
		Can I answer that?
		Can I go through these people who have been waiting?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hogland.
unidentified		Hello.
		Good morning, Mr. Bell.
		This is Robert of the San Joaquin Valley of California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, Robert.
unidentified		Mr. Richard C. Hogan, it's a pleasure, sir.
		Thank you.
		This is more fun than a barrel of monkeys.
		I'm having a lot of fun with this.
		I am a scientist.
		I'm greatly involved with many of the things you're talking about tonight.
		And I would like to mention to you a couple of things.
		I've listened to Mr. Bell's show for quite some time, and I listen very intently, and I talk to many of my scientists, friends.
		On his show, one of his shows of the past, talking about the pyramid, the Great Pyramid, below the ground, below the pyramid, some 260 feet and two and a half football field length is supposed to be other buildings.
		That was talked about a long time ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so you're going to have to get to the point.
unidentified		Well, I'm wondering if, because I believe on one of the past shows, Mr. Holgrin had mentioned about metallic objects, other items.
unidentified		That's one point that I wanted to bring up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure what the point was, but Richard, there is news from Egypt.
unidentified		Yes, there is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you've got, what, a videotape on the way or something?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have a line on a video.
		There is a tremendous price attached to this, which is some measure of its potential importance.
		When I come back in maybe a couple of weeks, there are some meetings going to take place with people I cannot name in terms of Giza, in terms of excavation, in terms of what's been going on there.
		We have not dropped the ball.
		Just because we don't mention something doesn't mean we're not working on it.
		But this is extraordinarily delicate, all right?
		Extraordinarily delicate.
		That will be part of a future program, and there will be an update, and we will have new solid information.
unidentified		That's all I can say right now.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Should I treasure my newly autographed and framed picture of Zahi Hawa?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Which says, thanks for all your help, Art Bell.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Incidentally, you know, we were invited for August coming up this year to the ARE conference in Virginia Beach to be on the stage to present our data with Zahi Hawass and Robert Baval and Joe Shore and John West and Ahmed Fayed and a couple of others.
		And at the last minute, apparently Hawass has backed out.
		He is not going to appear at the conference.
		I have proposed Stan Tennant of the Mehru Foundation, who has come up with some really remarkable connections now, not only to our data, but also to the Egyptian time capsule model that we've alluded to on previous shows and tonight.
		They have said that they are trying now to get Mark Blohner to replace Hawaz.
		What I have proposed is they cut down my time so that we can add Stan to the mix.
		And I'll report in a future program if this is all going to take place.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hogwind.
unidentified		Yeah.
		The reason why I've been kind of frightened by all this discussion is because of its coincidental nature to some of the things I've been getting into, which a guy named Dr. Carl Baugh, who is a religious guy, who used to be a paleontologist, has been espousing some of these same things that you have discovered as fact, which is quite amazing.
		I think you should try to get a hold of some of his material.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		If you want to fax me anything, our fax number is 201-271-1703.
unidentified		201-271-1703.
unidentified		That at our website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only one person can talk at a time.
unidentified		Sir, I just want my question was, that planet that blew up or that disintegrated potentially blew up.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, this is a model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's not a fact yet.
unidentified		It's supposed to be Omega, am I right?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you can name anything.
unidentified		I mean, I mean, excuse me, alpha.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You can name anything, anything, all right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What is your question, Colin?
unidentified		Planets have harmonic sounds.
		Actually, you can hear them in space.
		Is that true?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, look, there is a metaphor between sound and harmonics at the hyperdimensional level of the physics.
		There is a wave function associated with this physics.
		So when you, in New Age metaphysics, a lot of times sound is supplemented, it's substituted for real wave functions which are at the level of the ether.
unidentified		But there's an equivalence.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the direction of your inquiry is in the right direction.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if you take a planet out, the tones of the rest of them will change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That makes sense.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And it's that changing tone at the level of the etheric physical reality, which ultimately results in planets flipping axes in an effort to bring themselves back in equilibrium.
		You can see it in Ripple Tanks.
		You can see it in lots of lab demonstrations at this level.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that makes sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		Hi.
		Hello.
		Mr. Hoagland.
		I'm interested in the issue of the timeline.
		You mentioned that when we changed from the Gregorian to the Julian calendar, Oh, sorry.
		Yes, Julian to the Gregorian.
		We lost some weeks.
		Yes.
		This equates into some months, years, and that we are not 1997, but the year 2001.
		Roughly.
		Well, have you computed this actually, or do you know if anyone has?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, there are people who have done it.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I do not have access off the top of my head to that data, but it's easily accessible on the web.
unidentified		Thank you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's the beauty of the web.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Okay.
		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		Hi.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, good.
unidentified		Morning, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Hoagland, this is Kerry from Portland.
		Morning.
		I wanted to just briefly comment.
unidentified		Geez, you've been all over the place tonight, and you've got a lot of facts and figures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could barely follow you.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You have to get the tape and listen to it again carefully.
unidentified		right, right.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'm just kind of curious where we're going with all this.
		We're trying to figure it out.
		I don't know where we're going.
		All right.
		Remember, science is not a prescription, it's a process.
		When I started 15 years ago, I hadn't a clue I'd be sitting here tonight discussing this at the level that we're discussing it.
		I don't know what we're going to find out tomorrow.
		I have a meeting on the weekend relating to Egypt.
		I have a clue as to what's going to happen there.
		The point is that if you get your process down, if you have your checks in, whatever comes at you, you know, you can handle because you've got a way of testing whether it's real or it's not real.
unidentified		But you've got to have a process.
unidentified		Fair enough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		Hi.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
unidentified		All right.
		This is Andy in Norman, Oklahoma, and I've really enjoyed the program tonight.
		I just wanted to ask briefly if he could touch on, while we still have a couple minutes left, about maybe his thoughts on the aspects of human evolution that may be coming into play because of this and the quickening and the changing of the harmonic resonance of the hyperdimensional reality and such.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		That's an excellent question, and I think I've got a pretty good answer.
		If we're right, if this physics in fact is part of our reality, is modulating our reality, then as the phase relationship between the planets and the spin axes orient in this key geometry, you would get what art keeps calling the quickening, which is in fact an accelerating resonance to a resonance peak.
		This in turn should have an effect on the biology of the planet, on the meteorology.
		That's why I call it hyperdimensional weather art.
		It should have an effect on the geology, and most of our violence should have an effect on the consciousness of people.
		And if you want a simple kind of rule of thumb, the good will get better and the bad will get worse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Social behavior.
unidentified		You will see more extremes.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But there will also be an increase in awareness so that things that were only out there on the fringe, things you couldn't quite put into a pattern, will suddenly snap into place and you'll say, aha.
unidentified		So that's what that means.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And dreams, of course, which is when we release our conscious hold on the world and the associative connections, the unfiltered process of linking things is most available to us, should get better.
		And if you pay attention to your dreams, you'll be able to problem solve at that transition between dreaming much more easily than you have before.
		And I can't believe I'm talking this way.
unidentified		This is not me.
unidentified		This is the physics.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		This is the prediction of the model.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And there's all kinds of real-world clues, which I can spend a whole program going through the physical observations of the U.S. Geological Survey and all the other, some of which you have on your website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, if I had to sum up this program, I'd say I'd call it Richard Hoagland Meets the Metaphysical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
unidentified		Hello.
		How are you doing, Eric?
		Richard, I'm curious where in about six years they're going to retire the space shuttle fleet and got a new line of spacecraft.
		I've seen pictures of it.
		It kind of looks like this shuttle mixed in with a little bit of Aurora type of craft.
		Yeah, and you know what the number is?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know what the code number for it is?
unidentified		No, I'm not sure.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		X33.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yep, I've got a photograph of it on my website.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Did you know that, Richard?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You know what the highest degree of masonry is?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, 33.
unidentified		Exactly.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Do you know where Pathfinder is landing on Mars in July?
unidentified		Art?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The 33rd latitude?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		No, 19.5.
		Look, I rest my case.
		It's all over but the shouting.
		Look, please, folks, go to these old Navy stores and ask to find out what's going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I can't wait to see the results of this one.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And believe me, if enough of you do it, such shockwaves will be sent to the core of what's going on that it will open up the door for us to walk in and get some real answers.
unidentified		Either that or the old Navy chain will come to me and advertise.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		West of the Rockies, you're on there with Richards Yelpin.
unidentified		Hello.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		You're laughing, Arthur.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm laughing because I was.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It's going to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Caller.
unidentified		Lieutenant Carrie, how does this store tie in with all of this?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, we just explained that.
		There's some kind of connection point for the old Navy, which is when the water covered the planet from a previous time.
		Am I right, Richard?
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you have.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And the Navy guys were the ones that survived and preserved this core of civilization to rebuild in the next cycle.
		Now, that does not mean that every employee of the old Navy stores knows what's going on.
		All it takes is one person to be the contact point.
		And what you've done quietly, in other words, look, you've seen enough John Wayne movies to know that when the balloon goes up, you get the phone call and you report in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what are you expecting best case to occur?
		You walk in, you say you're there for the meeting.
		There'll be a lot of bewildered people.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		But there'll also be somebody that after the fourth or fifth or tenth person comes in and, you know, says, where's the meeting, and holds up a tetrahedron or a hyperdimensional, you know, equilateral triangle, they begin to realize that they've been found out and they then do something.
		They still don't do it to you.
		They do it behind the scenes.
		But what it will do is result in phone calls or faxes or something to us because we have back channels into certain people that I can't divulge right now.
		And this is the thing you can do, you, the American people, to help us get the kind of meetings we need to get to the next level of this.
unidentified		And if nothing's going on, nothing will happen.
unidentified		You can just get a nice plaid shirt for $16.50.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I might get a sponsor.
		I mean, I've got to look at the positive side of this.
		Now, is it possible that somebody will walk in and say, I'm here for the meeting, and they'll be led to some back room and seated where they probably ought to not be?
		Is that what you?
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Look, look, anything is possible.
		And what we want, of course, folks, is for you to tell us what happened.
		All right, report back.
		Facts are it, facts me.
		And if enough of you do it, it's numbers here that tout, because if they realize the jig is up, we figured it out.
		I mean, for God's sake, the whole, you know, Yeltsin Clinton summit was delayed so this timing takes place at the right time.
		And he's coming back on the 21st.
		It's one day there and back.
		What hell of a kind of summit is that to decide the fate of Europe and the expansion of NATO?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You are right about that.
		And, you know, Yeltsin is really pissed about our expansion of NATO.
		And he's taken a pretty hard line.
		And this is bound to be a rough summit.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		And this is going to be a touch and go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do agree with that.
		I really do agree.
		This is a critical, critical summit.
unidentified		And the president said, I must go to Helsinki.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Like any other time, he would have put it off.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But no way, I've got to go to Helsinki.
unidentified		So that much I know to be true.
unidentified		What's going to happen to all the old Navy stores later?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I have no idea about that.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Come on, Art.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Go find an old Navy store and tell me what happened.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We don't have them in Perum.
		Yes, you do.
		Well, maybe not.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Call that number.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		It will tell you the nearest one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Nearest one to Perum, Nevada, huh?
unidentified		Yep.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Richard.
		Jig's up, to use an old Navy term.
		Show's over and all that stuff.
		So say goodnight, Cosmos.
unidentified		Oh, no, no, no.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		I'll stay steady as she goes.
unidentified		Oh, at the helm again before you know it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No more Navy metaphors.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Richard.
richard c hoagland ▲ ● ▼		Good night, Ari.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		From the high deserts.

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