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Jan. 28, 1997 - Art Bell
02:37:14
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Scott Portzline - Three Mile Island Disaster
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Time Text
Welcome to Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from January 28, 1997.
From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you good evening, good morning, as the case may be across all these many time zones from the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains.
Visions of dramatics and native girls and all that.
All the way east to the Caribbean.
Similar visions.
U.S.
Virgin Islands.
South into South America.
North to the pole.
And worldwide on the internet.
This is Coast to Coast AF.
I'm Art Bell.
And it is great to be here.
We're going to talk about something from our childhood.
Some of us.
How many of you remember Three Mile Island?
Well, I do.
I sure do.
Some of it is fairly vague, but I was close to Three Mile Island at the time.
And what I remember... What I remember are lies.
Now, we've got somebody who knows about Three Mile Island.
He's in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
That's who we're going to interview.
His name is...
But I'm going to sort of test my memories on the subject.
I was living near the Pennsylvania-Maryland border at the time, and I remember the news when it began to break.
I wonder if you do?
Any of you who are old enough?
And I remember that They began to tell us there was a minor, a very minor problem at Three Mile Island.
And that news continued and was repeated again and again.
A very calming report.
Yes, there is a small problem at Three Mile Island.
Nothing to worry about.
Not to worry.
Well, It was not a small problem.
And what I recall at the time is that we were lied to.
But maybe my memory is faulty.
That's what I remember from Three Mile Island when I was a child.
That we were lied to.
How about you?
Accident?
I think Scott believes we were lied to.
We'll find out.
Coming up.
All right.
Again, with respect, before we get to Scott, with respect to the Internet, the all-consuming Internet, I want to share this with you.
I want to be sure you know about it.
We talked about it extensively last night and may well later tonight.
It is a medical study from 1907, thought long lost.
It is a most, most remarkable medical study that would appear to confirm the existence of the soul.
You can read about six human case studies which show an absolute and instantaneous weight loss at the precise instant of clinical death.
It is a most remarkable article and I ask you to go on up to the internet and read it.
My web address is www.artbell.com.
That's A-R-T-B-E-L-L, no space, dot com.
That's www.artbell.com on the internet.
And before we go to Scott, and while we're on the subject of the Internet, I want to try to play you something kind of cute that somebody sent me earlier today about the Internet.
Check this out.
Let's try it here.
Let's see.
There we go.
Now it's not going to play for some reason.
Oh, I see why it's not going to play.
Let's stop it and try it again.
Ah, computers.
Wonderful computers.
Uh, let me see here.
This should allow us to play it.
Alright, let me try it one more time.
To the tune of Gilligan's Island.
Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale about my virtual trip.
It started from my IBM with a simple little click.
I tried to surf the internet, but things did not go well.
I wound up being in chat room with some cyber geeks from hell.
Geeks trapped in cyber hell.
They won't shut up, I can't escape this AOL nightmare.
If I signed out to Prodigy, I bet they'd find me there.
Those geeks are everywhere.
I'm stuck inside the World Wide Web with weirdos I don't know.
I hit F1.
Unplug the phone.
I can't click out.
I can't click in.
extension here i thought somebody said that to me
me.
And so I thought I would pass it on to you.
Ah, the good old internet.
But that is a most serious article up there now.
Please, please check it out.
All right, now to something very serious indeed.
Scott Portsline has researched the Three Mile Island nuclear accident, that I guess ought to be in quotes, for 13 years, covering more than 30,000 pages of documents, testimony, memorandums, and hours of taped depositions obtained at the National Archives and other public document rooms.
He has found sufficient evidence to suggest That the accident was no accident.
He says there are documents which indicate a cult, get this, a cult was planning to sabotage the plant months before the accident and include the date of the planned attack.
There's been more than 150 acts of sabotage at U.S.
commercial nuclear plants and he is familiar with many of them.
In 1993, he testified to the U.S.
Senate, Pennsylvania House of Representatives, the U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and the Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards following a vehicle intrusion at Three Mile Island, which the New York Times reported, and said his research showed how ordinary citizens can use publicly available documents to prepare an act of sabotage against a nuclear plant.
The Sportsline says public documents become a how-to book in the hands of a saboteur.
His testimony and video presentation exposed the serious lack of security at commercial nuclear plants.
Just ten months before the intrusion, he warned an NRC advisory panel that the security at Three Mile Island was woefully inadequate.
In the past, He has been reluctant to speak out about the problems, so as not to give people ideas.
But recent events have caused him to go public.
And here he is, Scott Portsline.
Hi, Scott.
Hi, Art.
Very pleased and happy to be on your network.
Happy to have you.
As I said at the beginning of the program, I was close by, or not that far away, when Three Mile Island occurred.
And my memory of it is anger.
I remember being angry about what was reported as the whole thing came down, and then later the slowly leaking reality of what had happened, and the real danger.
Now, I guess all I can say is, Scott, tell us what you know.
Well, you had every right to be angry during the first day.
of the accident, which was Wednesday, March 28, 1979.
The utility, GPU, and Metropolitan Edison, were constantly downplaying the incident, saying it was just an incident, a very minor thing.
Meanwhile, the reactor was highly out of control.
In fact, it was out of control for approximately 12 hours.
And they had no idea of how they were going to get it under control, or the condition exactly of the fuel, which was melting.
In fact, fuel melted twice.
So the press releases and conferences that started that morning were a pack of lies.
And to some degree, the public relations people for GPU knew that they were lying.
They had every right to be angry.
In fact, the press, over the next 48 hours, became so upset with GPU that They would literally go on the radio and television in this area saying, here's what the company is saying, and here's something different that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission is saying, and you decide which is best for you.
Yes.
Can you tell us, before we get into motivation, or whether it might have been sabotage or whatever, can you give us a chronology of what actually happened at Three Mile Island, technically what occurred?
Sure.
I could go into a great deal of technical analysis, but we'll get out of here.
Now, keep it so we can understand it, but in other words, the chronology of the accident, how it proceeded.
Right, I'll give you the condensed version.
At 4 o'clock in the morning was the sign of first trouble when the turbine tripped because of a loss of flow through the secondary system.
There's three loops of coolant, actually, in a nuclear reactor.
And very rapidly, the reactor trips 8 seconds after this stoppage in the flow.
A release valve sits on top of the reactor, and that opened up, allowing steam, which is radioactive, and the radioactive coolant, literally, to flow out of the reactor core, and then it's supposed to shut.
But this valve fails to shut.
And so, you have a release going on.
It's called a loss of coolant accident.
And all the coolant is coming out of this relief valve that sits on top of the reactor.
So in other words, if I've got this right, a valve that should have closed instead remained open, the coolant escaped, and that caused the first trip.
In other words, an automatic shutdown of the turbine.
Is that correct?
Well, the trip caused the pressure to go up in the reactor.
The trip of the turbine and the trip of the reactor is the first event that happened.
What caused the turbine to trip?
The blockage of flow in a system called the condensate polisher system.
It's a filter system.
And they were having some trouble with that and trying to unclog it for the previous 12 hours.
Okay, so that tripped.
Then that caused the coolant problem.
Yes, when that trips, then you have a blockage of flow.
The secondary loop, which includes the turbine, that stops the reactor.
Pressure goes up.
It scrams automatically because things are starting to go haywire.
And that's when the release valve opens, starting the accident.
Okay, so we start to lose coolant.
At that point, the reactor should have been scramming, shouldn't it?
In other words, shutting itself down.
Yes, and it was.
But the temperatures are so high, And the nuclear reaction continues on for about an hour and a half because of the residual neutrons that are still going through the control rods and in the water itself.
All right.
So then where was the danger?
It should have, in an hour and a half, safely shut down, right?
Right.
Well, they lost the ability to feed it emergency feed water.
And the reason that happened was emergency feed water valves were closed.
They still don't know why those valves were closed.
In fact, they still don't know for sure why the condensing polisher system failed, which led to the turbine trip and so forth.
All right.
So the valves that should have put emergency cooling water in were closed.
So they couldn't get any cooling water to it.
So the scram sequence Uh, was now blown completely and this reactor was beginning to do what?
Get hotter and hotter and hotter?
What?
Yes, very rapidly.
The pressure goes up.
The temperature goes up.
You're losing, you're cooling out the top, so you're having steam.
Voids appearing in the system and through the piping and now you can't even pump water because you have voids where there's steam.
You can't pump steam and you can't pump vacuum and you can't pump air.
What are the reactor people doing while all this is going on?
The personnel?
Well, they're confused.
In fact, they're so confused I would hate to have been a reactor operator on that day.
You would have had to want to run home because nothing made sense.
Your control panel was giving you certain information that was incorrect.
and inaccurate. Their manuals on how to take the reactor down during this process didn't
describe the situation that they were seeing, and nothing they knew to do was helping. They'd
adjust something, think they have it under control, and 15 minutes later it'd be the
exact opposite or just going haywire again. So they had a great deal of trouble, especially
during the first few hours, even understanding what was happening.
Well, wouldn't physical observation have helped?
In other words, didn't they have cameras placed?
Couldn't they see this cooling water flowing out where it should not have been?
Didn't they know those valves that were closed were closed?
It took eight minutes until they discovered that the valves were closed.
And that happened by luck, that a man coming in early to work Uh, walked right over to that panel and saw that the emergency feed water valves were closed.
So he opened them immediately, but did not tell anybody that he had opened them.
If he had communicated that, or they had understood that, it would have helped them analyze part of what was going wrong.
Um, would those valves, under all normal conditions, be open?
They're required to be open.
Required to be open.
So that means, Somebody had to shut them.
Yes, they did conclude that they had to have been shut by a human and not from a control panel and not automatically.
So in all the years while the plant is operational, so that I've got this straight in my mind, those valves would absolutely always be open?
Yes, unless there's a test going on and you are required to find A piece of paper saying you're closing them at what time and again when you open them.
I know they keep, or they should keep, very careful records at a nuclear power plant, right?
Yes.
So would there not have been a record the last time for a test or whatever other reason those valves were closed and then ostensibly, I suppose, reopened after the test?
Yes.
In fact, there was a test just two days prior.
That's why some of the investigators Uh, continue to assume that these workers forgot to open them.
Uh, both of the workers testified that they clearly remember opening the valves and I forget the, uh, whether the paperwork showed that or not.
I think they threw the paperwork away.
They threw it away.
Um, there was a lot of paperwork missing on this accident and I think that's what happened to that paperwork also.
So, meanwhile, the reactor is... What begins to happen?
You know, I saw... I'm not an expert in this area.
I saw China Syndrome with Jane Fonda, I think it was.
Wasn't Jane Fonda in there?
I think she was, yeah.
And so I know, I guess, a little bit about what can begin to happen.
And I guess the material can get so hot with no coolant that it could literally drop through the entire containment And begin to go down, sink into the ground, a total meltdown.
Yes.
Is that what was beginning?
Oh, absolutely.
In fact, it wasn't until, oh, I'd say four or five years ago that one of the laboratories in Idaho that works with nuclear discovered that we were saved by good fortune or luck, if you want to call it that, because the fuel started to melt at the top of the core.
The water level was below the fuel.
It's heating up to over 5,000 degrees and it starts to melt.
The control rods and the fuel rods burst open and the fuel pellets literally have become molten and fall to the bottom of the core.
So fuel melted not only once, but it melted the second time when it reached the bottom of the reactor and it assembled in such a geometric formation that the proximity allowed another nuclear chain reaction to start.
And we had a situation where nobody knew for years that the fuel was melting on the bottom of the core.
I think more than 50% of that core collapsed to the bottom of the reactor.
And what happened was a vacuum of air and steam.
Well, steam wouldn't be a vacuum.
I guess air wouldn't either.
But you had vacuum and steam voids between the molten fuel And the stainless steel reactor and that prevented the fuel from melting through the steel of the reactor and onto the basement floor and hitting the water that's now drained out on the reactor floor would have had tremendous steam flashes and over pressurization of the reactor building which could lead to loss of containment or even an explosion of a steam nature and it would have been just a terrible
Instantaneous catastrophe at that point.
All right, well, actually, I would like to know what would have occurred had that occurred, and we'll ask you about that.
I'm not sure anybody really knows, but I guess they have studied such a possibility.
We're talking with Scott Horslein, who has testified before many people who wanted to know about this kind of thing, and now you.
About Three Mile Island.
About what really happened at Three Mile Island.
There'll be more of it in a moment.
Once again, here I am.
Scott Portsline is my guest from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
He's talking about Three Mile Island.
If you want to know what actually happened there, then stay tuned.
Back now to Scott Portsline.
Scott?
Yes?
Just theoretically, if everything had gone instead of in a lucky direction, Uh, but it had gone wrong and there had been a full meltdown through the containment.
What would have happened?
That was discussed in a report by a man named Rasmussen, who Right before the accident, a week before, he withdrew his report stating that he could not determine whether it was accurate and that the chance of these consequences were greater or less.
But the consequences could be an area the size of the state of Pennsylvania, coincidentally, could be rendered useless and could kill 130,000 people.
How close to that did we get?
Within half an hour, according to the Rogovin Commission.
Rogovin Commission was an independent NRC panel put together to analyze the accident.
The American people, and I'm one of them, have always thought that unlike Chernobyl and the Russian reactors with poor containment, that our containment facilities for nuclear reactors were, you know, I don't like to use the word fail-safe, But that we were protected, that nothing like that really could ever happen with an American.
Nuclear reactor, and that just, I guess, is not true?
No, that's not true.
It could happen, but not for the same reasons that it happened in Chernobyl.
In fact, I just talked to a reactor engineer today, Dr. Richard Webb, who was telling me about experiments in the 60s where they deliberately over-pressurized a containment building and blew the dome 1,400 feet into the air.
Whoa!
So you could have a steam explosion, as I described earlier, And it would be, I suppose, a horrible death.
they thought, the NRC thought they would just have this minor leak, but you could have a
sudden release of radionuclides into the atmosphere and cause the death of 130,000 people.
And it would be, I suppose, a horrible death.
Would they die immediately or slowly or...
The people close to the plant, some of those would die rather rapidly within a day or two.
A day or two.
Yeah, and then some would linger for up to a year.
Could that still happen today?
Yes.
The NRC has a problem with keeping up on their safety issues.
Some of them not taken care of for over 10 years.
Thermal lag being one of them, which is a fire retardant.
And what can happen during an accident is you can lose the ability to control the reactor because the wires and so forth that lead to the control systems can melt from the high pressures and temperatures.
Those wires have never been tested under accident conditions, so they certainly don't meet that type of safety specification.
You lose the wires, you lose the control.
Yes.
You don't think Three Mile Island was an accident?
No.
There's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that there should have been a sabotage investigation.
In fact, the FBI was requested to do an investigation.
But I first learned about this right after I came home from Cooling Greenland.
I was in a van.
We were entertaining the troops.
And Tony Greenan, who were looking for a lost nuclear bomb.
And the bomb went through the ice after an air crash.
You know, I heard about that.
A broken arrow, wasn't it?
Some sort of a broken arrow.
There was some sort of accident, and I recall that a nuclear device was lost.
I can't remember the name.
But a B-52 crashed about seven miles from Thule, Greenland.
The fire melted the ice and they lost at least one nuclear bomb, which went to the bottom of the ocean there, which wouldn't have been that deep.
Nonetheless, they couldn't find it immediately.
And in 1979, when Greenland was about to become independent from Denmark, one of the conditions was that the United States was going to try to find that nuclear bomb, which they did.
Of course, we were hearing all these reports, and I have pictures of the Navy SEAL divers, and all of these things didn't exist.
You know, this was all a figment of our imagination.
I remember hearing about it, though.
You're the last I heard about it.
So, how do you imagine the sabotage at Three Mile Island occurred?
Well, what we think happened was somebody associated with the cult was involved in disabling equipment And possibly even triggering the accident at the time that they wanted.
A cult?
Yes, there was a cult in the Harrisburg area, even in the mid-70s, which was very surprising because nobody would have thought, especially in your own hometown, that there was a cult living right next door to everyday people.
And I had a Boy Scout troop that met only half a block away from where this cult lived.
And the cult leader was arrested for sexually molesting children and he was arrested on the 10th of April 1975 and put in a state penitentiary for more than 20 years where he's still located now.
And what they did before the accident was issue warnings to some of their members and some of their members tipped off other relatives to leave Harrisburg Order before April of 1979.
One of the relatives sent a portion of the letter to the Paxson Herald newspaper who printed a portion of the letter.
Let me read that to you.
Alright.
This paper has read a letter.
By the way, the owner and writer and editor for the Paxson Herald was the Deputy Attorney General's My wife, a former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania.
This paper has read a letter written by, and it names a lady, to her sister who lives in this area, warning of a tragedy that will take place on or before April of 1979.
The letter tells her sister to leave the area and describes the area of future tragedy.
Then it gives the geographic locations, including the area visible from the Dauphin County Courthouse.
The letter warns of danger and says, please do not take this letter lightly.
This paper strongly points out that there are nuts in the world who make predictions and then work hard at making tragedy happen.
And then it says, we ask the district attorney's office, the police department, and Three Mile Island to redouble their security and make a determined effort to clean up this local cult.
Now notice the only place that she mentioned was Three Mile Island.
Yes.
Well, that should have been enough for the FBI to grab that and run.
Why didn't they?
I'm not sure why they didn't.
They were tipped off to it.
People called and complained and said that this was in the Paxton Herald.
They knew about it.
But in their report, they claim, the NRC, I should say, claims that these rumors are unfounded.
In fact, on the 1st of April, the FBI reported to newspaper reporters the patriot news
that the rumor that that that that that that that that that that that that that
that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that
and that they said it was a product of misunderstanding of information
the very next day according to the rogavin commission
the fbi open sabotage investigation
and the day before they said the investigation closed so somebody was
lying or another mistake was made
uh... and which do you think it is I can't tell.
I can't tell.
It might have just been miscommunication.
How long did it take them to clean up Three Mile Island?
They finished cleaning up about two years ago.
About two years ago?
Oh my gosh.
But it's not totally cleaned up.
We still have twenty tons of debris in that core.
Twenty tons?
Yeah.
It's basically a waste site now.
And probably will be As long as I'm alive.
While we're on the subject of waste, this is taking you pretty far afield, but I live out here in the Nevada desert near Mercury and the Tessai Area, Area 51, this area.
And not all that far from an area where they're talking about storing permanent waste.
And every nuclear reactor, I guess, in the country now has an awful lot of waste waiting.
Doesn't it?
Oh, yes.
In fact, they're starting to store it in untested and unproven, I should say, and never went through the government regulatory process.
Dry cast is what they're called.
Dry cast storage.
And that could be a disaster.
Why?
Because there's no water inside these to keep it cool.
They literally can reach temperatures where they can catch on fire.
Catch on fire?
Yeah.
Also, they're exposed to the elements and access sabotage.
Well, there was the next question, and I hesitate to ask you publicly, but since you're going to talk about it, I will ask you.
If you, Scott, were a bad guy, and you wanted to sabotage a nuclear plant, and cause an accident the magnitude of, or greater than, Three Mile Island, how hard would it be?
It's very simple.
Using publicly available documents, I could formulate A dozen different plans, some of them with stealth, some of them with commandos, others with bombs.
But maybe the simplest one to do would be to disable the diesel generators and to take down the off-site power supply lines to the plant.
And in fact, of all the 150 incidents that I know of, only one of those was committed by outsiders.
149 were committed by insiders.
Insiders.
And so, defogenerators have been sabotaged in the past.
And if you lose the defogenerator system and the off-site power supply system, you now have no electricity to control your plant.
What about a more violent approach?
For example, in Lebanon, a truck bomb was used to great effect and blew the hell out of a building from quite a distance.
I wonder what that size of a bomb in a truck would have done to a containment.
Yes, in some plants the containment might remain intact.
At Three Mile Island, that had to be designed to withstand the impact of a 747.
But at other nuclear plants around the country, the San Diego National Laboratories found in 1984 that they could have a terrible release of radiation from a small charge Suppose I had an armor-penetrating missile.
Something designed to kill a tank, say.
but still reasonable size charge that is to say a truck bomb
at large setback distances
in fact greater than the protected area for most plants
uh... suppose i had an armor penetrating
missile uh... something designed to kill a tank say
which unfortunately uh... these sorts of things are available
uh... to people who look for them Uh, would that penetrate a containment?
I don't know enough about the, uh, weaponry, but I have been told that it could.
Um, it would be very difficult for a terrorist, short of a biological attack, to kill that many people with any sort of conventional bomb.
But here we've got all of these nuclear plants just sitting there, waiting.
What should be done?
Well, Edward Teller suggested that we should build all nuclear plants underground.
Many years ago, he said that.
We at least need to improve security by installing the vehicle barriers at the proper setback distances.
Now, following the TMI intrusion, DNRC finally decided that they were going to install vehicle barriers.
But they installed them without the use of bomb blast expertise, engineering, They just went on suggestions from Army engineers, the Corps of Engineers.
And so what we have, at Three Mile Island, which is one of the smallest plants in the country, you could still drive a truck bomb through the North Gate, past the vehicle barrier, which is open 50% of the day.
Good Lord.
You can see that barrier on my website, which is at http://, there's no www here, that's the odd thing about this.
Pages.prodigy.com slash nuclear terrorism.
So that's http://pages.prodigy.com slash nuclear.terrorism.
And you can see a picture of the gate.
You could drive the truck bomb within about 75 feet of the spent fuel pool.
And if you detonated a truck bomb from that site of sufficient size, You would have a terrible catastrophe.
What would you have?
Well, you would have tons of spent fuel literally boiling the water dry and then releasing radioactivity into the air.
That would all take place within a few hours, if not immediately, depending on the... What is that fuel?
Is that plutonium?
Oh, well, there'd be some plutonium there.
At that point, you have more than 240 nuclear elements.
They go right down the list strontium
plutonium uranium Krypton xenon and and you know 240 so then you're saying
not only are the plants a danger But the storage facilities these temporary storage
facilities are a horrible danger Well yeah, the caches are out farther from the plant than even the protected area in some cases.
An attractive target, I'm afraid.
Let me, again, go through with you why you're willing... In other words, it is a little scary in the sense that there are people out there listening who are true nutcases.
And we might be giving them ideas.
And I know that you've thought about that.
Why is it more important to come on the air and talk about it Than it is to worry about giving people ideas, or would they already know about this?
Well, there have been many threats against nuclear plants already, including the World Trade Center terrorist who trained 30 miles from Three Mile Island, and threatened to attack nuclear targets with 150 suicide soldiers.
They did a nighttime mock assault on an electrical substation at their training camp.
The FBI knew about this.
Within three weeks of the intrusion at Three Mile Island, the World Trade Center was bombed.
The FBI did not contact Three Mile Island about the proximity of the training camp.
Had they done so, as I requested, I wish that they had activated the contingency plan for truck bomb attacks, which the NRC required plants to come up with.
Excuse me, it wasn't a requirement.
It was a suggestion in a generic letter That each plant should develop a contingency plan for truck bomb attacks.
And when I found out about the training camp, I immediately called the NRC's Emergency Response Center and requested that they took all my information about the FBI raid on the camp, which took place in June of 1993, and they called me back 90 minutes later to say that the information I had given them was accurate, they were familiar with me from my testimonies, and that they would seriously consider activating the plan.
They did not do it.
They didn't do it.
So I'm speaking out publicly.
If we can't trust our government and the FBI to communicate properly, then we as citizens have to take things in our own hands and try to effect change.
Well, there are plenty of people who hate our guts.
And I'm sure that nuclear plants, and particularly storage of materials, would be a very, as you say, a very attractive target.
Oh, yes.
Why has it not yet happened?
Have we been lucky?
The United States has been lucky.
There have been attacks on nuclear plants already.
In fact, we destroyed the Iraqi nuclear plant during the Gulf War, and a few days after the Three Mile Island accident, so-called, the French construction company had a reactor being built in France, bound for Iraq, Was destroyed by the Mossad.
And the Mossad used the Primo Island accident as a cover, and they telephoned the press over there and said that we, an environmentalist group, have destroyed this to try to prevent future Harrisburg.
But it was actually an intelligence operation from Israel.
Really?
Yeah.
So Iraq definitely has incentives to kill us and do so with a nuclear attack such as this.
the position for social responsibility called nuclear plant landmines waiting
to be stepped upon you know in my mind all i can see is
this horrible tragedy occurring and lots of good senate testimony
by people like yourself after
That's what I'm worried about.
After the fact.
All right, Scott, hold on.
We're going to break here at the top of the hour.
When we come back, you might get a bit of that testimony that you gave ready and we'll play it on the air.
How would that be?
Okay, the clips that I have are other testimonies, but that's what we'll do.
Alright, good Scott.
We'll be right back.
Stay right where you are, everybody.
Scott Portswine is my guest.
We're talking about things nuclear.
Things not so much.
Stay right where you are.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring a replay of Coast to Coast AM from January 28th, 1997.
My guest is Scott Hortzline from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
He has been investigating the accident, question mark, we'll treat it fairly, at Three Mile Island for many, many years, ever since it has occurred.
He has testified about it before the NRC.
He has testified before the U.S.
Senate in Pennsylvania.
Not U.S.
Senate, but the Pennsylvania Senate.
And I'm reading now from his website.
And you can get there by going to my website.
We've got a link up there right now.
And if you want to see an Oh-My-God photograph, there is a barrier gate.
You've got to see that photograph, trust me.
You go up to my website, you'll see a link right over to his.
Reading from his, The threat of nuclear terrorism most often brings images of a city totally flattened and incinerated by a nuclear bomb, while the press continues to focus on the problems associated with stolen weapons-grade nuclear materials, particularly those originating from the former Soviet Union.
The greater threat may actually be an attack against a nuclear power plant.
Terrorists would be able to skip the formidable task of assembling or stealing a nuclear bomb.
There are more than a few terrorist experts who believe that a nuclear power plant will be successfully assaulted before terrorists ever have the ability to deliver a nuclear weapon.
Considering the fact that a nuclear plant houses more than a thousand times, I said a thousand times the radiation as released in an atomic burst.
The magnitude of a single attack could reach beyond 100,000 deaths and the immediate loss of tens of billions of dollars.
The land and properties destroyed, your insurance will not cover it by the way, would remain useless for decades And would become a stark monument reminding the world of the terrorist ideology.
And that's just a portion of what's on his website.
I suggest you go take a look.
And as I said, he referred to a photograph of a barrier called the North Gate.
And it says, why won't this NRC approved vehicle barrier prevent a terrorist truck bomb attack?
And we will ask that in a moment.
Back now to Scott Porcelain.
Scott?
Yes?
Just theoretically, if everything had gone instead of in a lucky direction, but it had gone wrong, and there had been a full meltdown through the containment, what would have happened?
That was discussed in a report by a man named Raph Newsom, who right before the accident, a week before, withdrew his report stating that he could not determine whether it was accurate and that the chance of these consequences were greater or less.
But the consequences could be the state of an area of the size of the state of Pennsylvania, coincidentally, could be rendered useless.
And could kill 130,000 people.
How close to that did we get?
Within half an hour, according to the Rogovin Commission.
Rogovin Commission was an independent NRC panel put together to analyze the accident.
The American people, and I'm one of them, have always thought that unlike Chernobyl and the Russian reactors, with poor containment, That our containment facilities for nuclear reactors were, you know, I don't like to use the word fail-safe, but that we were protected, that nothing like that really could ever happen with an American nuclear reactor.
And that just, I guess, is not true?
No, that's not true.
It could happen, but not for the same reasons that it happened in Chernobyl.
In fact, I just talked to a reactor engineer today, Dr. Richard Webb, Who was telling me about experiments in the 60s where they deliberately over pressurized the containment building and blew the dome 1400 feet into the air.
Whoa!
So you could have a steam explosion as I described earlier, or the over pressurization.
The NRC thought they would just have this minor leak, but you could have a sudden release of radionuclides into the atmosphere and cause the death of 130,000 people.
And it would be, I suppose, a horrible death.
Would they die immediately or slowly or... The people close to the plant, some of those would die rather rapidly within a day or two.
A day or two.
Yeah, and then some would linger for up to a year.
Could that still happen today?
Yes.
The NRC had a problem with keeping up on their safety issues, some of them not uh... taken care of for over ten years thermal egg being
one of them which is a fire retardant
and what can happen during an accident is you can lose the ability to control
the reactor because the wires and so forth that lead to the
control systems can melt
from the high pressures and temperatures of those wires have never been tested
under accident conditions so they certainly don't need that type of safety
you lose the wires you lose the control you don't think three mile island was an accident
No.
There's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that there should have been a sabotage investigation.
In fact, the FBI was requested to do an investigation.
But I first learned about this right after I came home from Cooley Greenland.
I was in a van.
We were entertaining the troops.
And Tony Greenan, who were looking for a lost nuclear bomb.
And the bomb went through the ice after an air crash.
You know, I heard about that.
A broken arrow, wasn't it?
Some sort of a broken arrow, or there was some sort of accident, and I recall that a nuclear device was lost?
Yeah, I can't remember the name.
But a B-52 crashed about seven miles from Thule, Greenland.
The fire melted the ice and they lost at least one nuclear bomb, which went to the bottom of the ocean there, which wouldn't have been that deep.
Nonetheless, they couldn't find it immediately.
And in 1979, when Greenland was about to become independent from Denmark, one of the conditions was that the United States was going to try to find that nuclear bomb, which they did.
Of course, we were hearing all these reports, and I have pictures of the Navy SEAL divers, and all of these things didn't exist.
You know, this was all a figment of our imagination.
I remember hearing about it, though.
Nevertheless, I heard about it.
So, how do you imagine that sabotage at Three Mile Island occurred?
Well, what we think happened was somebody associated with the cult was involved in disabling equipment And possibly even triggering the accident at the time that they wanted.
A cult?
Yes, there was a cult in the Harrisburg area, even in the mid-70s, which was very surprising because nobody would have thought, especially in your own hometown, that there was a cult living right next door to everyday people.
I had a Boy Scout troop that met only half a block away from where this cult lived.
And the cult leader was arrested for especially molesting children.
And he was arrested on the 10th of April 1975 and put in state penitentiary for more than 20 years, where he's still located now.
And what they did before the accident was issue warnings to some of their members, and some of their members tipped off other relatives to leave Harrisburg Warner before April of 1979.
One of the relatives sent a portion of a letter to the Paxson Herald newspaper who printed the, uh, a portion of a letter.
And let me read that to you.
All right.
This paper has read a letter by the way, the, uh, owner and writer editor for the Paxson Herald was the, uh, deputy attorney general's, um, Wife, a former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania.
All right.
This paper has read a letter written by, and it names the lady, to her sister, who lives in this area, warning of a tragedy that could take place on or before April of 1979.
The letter tells her sister to leave the area and describes the area of future tragedy.
Then it gives the geographic locations, including the area visible from the Dauphin County Courthouse, The letter warns of danger and says, please do not take this letter lightly.
This paper strongly points out that there are nuts in the world who make predictions and then work hard at making tragedy happen.
And then it says, we asked the district attorney's office, the police department, and Three Mile Island to redouble their security and make a determined effort to clean up this local cult.
Now notice the only place that she mentioned was Three Mile Island.
Yes.
Well, that should have been enough for the FBI to grab that and run.
Why didn't they?
I'm not sure why they didn't.
They were tipped off to it.
People called and complained and said that this was in the Paxton Herald.
They knew about it.
But in their reports, they claim, the NRC, I should say, claims that these rumors are unfounded.
In fact, on the 1st of April, the FBI reported to newspaper reporters the patriot news
that the rumors of sabotage have been discounted by the fbi and that they said it was a product of misunderstanding of
information the very next day
according to the rogue of in commission the fbi
open sabotage investigation and the day before they said the investigation closed
so somebody was lying or another mistake was made
uh... and which do you think it is I can't tell.
I can't tell.
It might have just been miscommunication.
How long did it take them to clean up Three Mile Island?
They finished cleaning up about two years ago.
About two years ago?
Oh my gosh!
But it's not totally cleaned up.
We still have 20 tons of debris in that core.
20 tons?
Yeah.
It's basically a waste site now.
And probably will be As long as I'm alive.
While we're on the subject of waste, this is taking a pretty far field, but I live out here in the Nevada desert near Mercury and the Tessai Area, Area 51, this area, and not all that far from an area where they're talking about storing permanent waste, and every nuclear reactor, I guess, in the country now has an awful lot of waste waiting.
Doesn't it?
Oh, yes.
In fact, they're starting to store it in untested and unproven, I should say, and never went through the government regulatory process.
Dry cast is what they're called.
Dry cast storage.
And that could be a disaster.
Why?
Because there's no water inside these to keep it cool.
They literally can reach temperatures where they can catch on fire.
Catch on fire?
Yeah.
Also, they're exposed to the elements and access sabotage.
Well, there was the next question, and I hesitate to ask you publicly, but since you're going to talk about it, I will ask you.
If you, Scott, were a bad guy, and you wanted to sabotage a nuclear plant and cause an accident the magnitude of or greater than Three Mile Island, how hard would it be?
It's very simple.
Using publicly available documents, I could formulate A dozen different plans, some of them with stealth, some of them with commandos, others with bombs.
Maybe the simplest one to do would be to disable the diesel generators and to take down the off-site power supply lines to the plant.
And in fact, of all the 150 incidents that I know of, only one of those What about a more violent approach?
spiders under the forty nine were committed by insider insiders and
thirty four generators have been sabotage in the past and if you lose
the people generator system and off-site power supply system
you now have no electricity to control your plant
what about a more violent uh... approach for example uh...
uh... in lebanon the truck bomb was used to great effect and blew the hell out of
the building from quite a distance I wonder what that size of a bomb in a truck would have done to a containment.
Yes, in some plants the containment might remain intact.
At Three Mile Island, that had to be designed to withstand the impact of a 747.
But at other nuclear plants around the country, The San Diego National Laboratories found in 1984 that they could have a terrible release of radiation from a small charge at close setback distances or from a larger but still reasonable sized charge, that is to say a truck bomb, at large setback distances.
In fact, greater than the protected area for most plants.
Suppose I had an armor penetrating Missile.
Something designed to kill a tank, say.
Which, unfortunately, these sorts of things are available to people who look for them.
Would that penetrate a containment?
I don't know enough about the weaponry, but I have been told that it could.
It would be very difficult for a terrorist, short of a biological attack, To kill that many people with any sort of conventional bomb.
But here we've got all of these nuclear plants just sitting there, waiting.
What should be done?
Well, Edward Teller suggested that we should build all nuclear plants underground.
Many years ago he said that.
We at least need to improve security by installing the vehicle barriers at the proper setback distances.
Now following the TMI intrusion, The NRC finally decided that they were going to install vehicle barriers.
But they installed them without the use of bomb blast expertise, uh, engineering.
They just went on suggestions from Army engineers, the Corps of Engineers.
and so what we have at three mile in which is one of the
malachite plants in the country you could still drive a truck bomb
through the north gate the vehicle barrier which is open fifty percent of the day
the lord you can see that burial on my website
which is at h t t p colon slash double slash
w w w here that's the odd thing about this dot prodigy dot com
nuclear terrorism so that's h t t p
pages dot prodigy dot com slash
nuclear dot terrorism you can see a picture of the gate you could drive a truck bomb within
about seventy five feet of the
use of the spent fuel pool Thank you.
And if you detonated a truck bomb from that site of sufficient size, you would have a terrible catastrophe.
What would you have?
Well, you would have tons of spent fuel literally boiling the water dry and then releasing radioactivity into the air.
That would all take place within a few hours.
If not, immediately.
What is that fuel?
Is that plutonium?
Will there be some plutonium there?
At that point you have more than 240 nuclear elements.
You can go right down the list.
Strontium.
Plutonium.
Uranium.
Krypton.
Xenon.
And, you know, 240.
So then you're saying not only are the plants a danger, But the storage facilities, these temporary storage facilities, are a horrible danger.
Well, yeah, the cats are out farther from the plant than even a protected area in some cases.
It's an attractive target, I'm afraid.
Let me again go through with you why you're willing, in other words, it is a little scary in the sense that There are people out there listening who are true nutcases.
And we might be giving them ideas.
And I know that you've thought about that.
Why is it more important to come on the air and talk about it than it is to worry about giving people ideas or would they already know about this?
Well, there have been many threats against nuclear plants already.
Including the World Trade Center terrorists who trained 30 miles from Three Mile Island and threatened to attack nuclear targets with 150 suicide soldiers.
They did a nighttime mock assault on electrical substations at their training camp.
The FBI knew about this.
Within three weeks of the intrusion at Three Mile Island, the World Trade Center was bombed.
The FBI did not contact Three Mile Island About the proximity of the training camp.
Had they done so, as I requested, I wish that they had activated the contingency plan for truck bomb attacks, which the NRC required plants to come up with.
Excuse me, it wasn't a requirement.
It was a suggestion in a generic letter that each plant should develop a contingency plan for truck bomb attacks.
And when I found out about the training camp, I immediately called the NRC's Emergency Response Center and requested that They took all my information about the FBI raid on the camp, which took place in June of 1993, and they called me back 90 minutes later to say that the information I had given them was accurate.
Back to Scott Portline in just a moment.
Scott, I'd like to get phone lines open here shortly, but I would like to ask you a couple of things.
One is, what do you know about Chernobyl?
I have heard so many rumors.
60 Minutes did a really frightening program on what's going on inside that sarcophagus they've built over Chernobyl.
What's going on there, do you know?
I don't know a great deal about it, but there's definitely a danger of the fuel melting and Heating up and catching on fire and more releases.
They're having troubles with the dust blowing out of the sarcophagus.
And unfortunately, the Ukrainian government continues to hold this over our heads, asking us for more money.
And they promised to shut down the other Chernobyl reactors.
We give them money, then they reopen the reactors.
And a friend of mine just did visit Chernobyl.
And also a doctor All right.
Not a good place to be, and something awful could still occur there.
I'm much more concerned, though, about right here at home.
Here's somebody who says, please ask your guest to comment on the following.
It almost appears at times like our government seems to purposely allow these terrible things to occur in order to support crackdowns, which of course could result in calls for temporary, but never to be rescinded, infringements of our constitutional rights.
I have to agree with that.
It seems that way.
I have a hard time believing that that happens, but what I know about radiation experiments and cornflakes that are radioactive and things like this, Then nothing would surprise me.
In fact, if the FBI spent more time on the telephone calling the NRC in Three Mile Island about the location of the training camp, they might have to spend less time tapping our telephone.
All right, let's try a few phone calls and see what's on the minds of the audience.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Yes, I wanted to ask Scott a couple questions.
Go ahead.
Where are you, sir?
I'm in St.
Louis.
Was Governor Thornburg in Harrisburg on the day that the catastrophe occurred?
I can't recall if he was here, but he definitely ordered a meeting with the GPU executives at I'm in southern New York, just west of Corning, New York.
in the first 48 hours. See my hometown is 100 miles due north of Harrisburg.
Scranton? Wilkes-Barre? No, I'm in southern New York. Okay.
Just west of Corning. Okay.
Corning, New York. If the prevailing winds had been due north, my hometown could have
been sent into oblivion for the next thousand years.
Well, that's absolutely true.
In fact, radiation did go northward and it set off radiation alarms in Maine.
In Maine?
Yes.
Absolutely.
That evidence was ruled out of the court records because it couldn't be proven that that radiation came from Fremont Island.
But you don't just have a radiation alarm going off for no reason.
Something must cause it.
And that was the most plausible explanation, yet nobody could prove it.
With respect to the possibility of terrorism against one of our plants, what you're discussing is incredibly sensitive.
How do you think a nuclear regulatory people who might be listening this morning are going to feel about what you're saying?
Well, I've been advised by Carlisle Michelson.
He's a systems analyst with the Tennessee Valley Authority.
He's done studies At the Los Alamos Laboratory, Sandia National Laboratory, and the Reactor Safeguards Committee.
And he has advised me not to make too much of a stink in the public, because there's not much we can do about it, but that my concerns are legitimate.
So there are people who have actually already advised me not to discuss this publicly.
In other words, don't talk about it, because what you're saying is true, but there's not a damn thing we can do about it.
Yeah, what happens is the NRC loads the committees with favorable votes and favorable recommendations.
And so you have good people at the NRC who are outnumbered by people who are willing to tow the company line.
All right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Quartzline.
Hi.
Hi.
Where are you, sir?
Los Angeles.
Okay.
How can anybody who wants to be prepared for events like these disasters, going to be able to make
preparations.
It doesn't mean that you have to find out where all the locations are,
make sure that you're not downwind of something, and then move off the property.
Now, that kind of depends which way the wind's blowing at any given moment, but good question.
How do you prepare, Scott?
If you were going to advise somebody like this man individually, what do you say?
Well, in actuality, we are all downwind of some hazard or another,
whether it's a toxic waste site or a nuclear plant.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission for years has dismissed our need for potassium iodide,
and that would prohibit the uptake of radioactive iodine into our thyroid gland.
That's the only thing that you can do to protect yourself besides running away from the direction of the release.
Very strange.
All right.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Hi.
I'm calling from north of Virginia.
Thank you, Art, for having Scott on.
Sure.
I lived in the 20-mile radius of Three Mile Island when it's occurrence was our experience, and I wanted to mention that we left the area and got to Springfield, Virginia, in the D.C.
area, and felt relieved that we had gotten there, only to learn we would have to The report about Maine sounds quite believable to my ears and I hope that everyone who might be tempted to be critical of this gentleman and his courageous efforts to let the American people know what indeed the realities are
I hope that somehow, perhaps through your wonderful, wonderful offices, Art, we might know how we can address this nationwide, something in the future that we might be able to do and have the impetus to do your program even.
Well, I guess that's what we're doing right now, and it's going to frighten a lot of people.
I don't want to frighten people unnecessarily, but on the other hand, I'd rather be talking about this now than after something awful happens.
We need to contact our legislators, state and federal legislators.
Our inspector, he is my senator, and he's quite a bit involved with terrorism and the abuse of power with the FBI.
Yet, I sat in his office and had to basically threaten to expose their lack of concern in handling the documents I was giving them with exposure to national news media.
And that was the only way they were even willing to listen to what I had to say, but it still went in one ear and out the other.
So it's very difficult.
That's why I'm going to the public.
The public needs to do the work now and contact their legislators and let people know that this is a vital matter of national security.
Well, it absolutely is.
And I want to remind everybody in the audience right now, if you go to my website, we've got a link to Scott's.
And he's got some very chilling photographs up there of nuclear power plants and of a gate that's open about half the day.
Just wait till you see some of those photographs.
And back to the lines, I guess.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hi.
Hi.
Good evening, Art.
This is Pete in Portland.
Yes.
And I would like to talk about the Trojan nuclear power plant here.
That has been... Pete, you're a real old hand at this.
Turn your radio off, please.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
My remote decided to die.
The Georgia Nuclear Power Plant was decommissioned a few years ago because of cracked secondary fueling tubes.
And they're now planning on taking the whole reactor, filling it with foam and concrete, and then shipping it by barge up to Hanford.
But what I'm worried about is the fact that there's still, almost certainly, Do you know what he's talking about, John?
Yes.
He's correct.
The Yucca Mountain is not ready.
The nuclear industry is the only industry that was allowed to build a house before they could design the outhouse.
In other words, they couldn't come up with an explanation for what to do with the waste.
And the spent fuel is very dirty and much more highly radioactive than brand new fuel units.
There's been crashes of trucks carrying new fuel, and just last week there was a crash in Minnesota carrying a radioactive turbine diaphragm.
Or no, that was actually the blades from the turbine crashed right into a bridge.
The crash that happened with the new fuel, the driver didn't even have a valid driver's license.
So, I followed a, just last year, I followed a truck hauling nuclear waste down Route 81 through Harrisburg in a 55 mile an hour zone doing 72 miles per hour.
Got all the license number on the cab, the trailer, everything I could get.
Stopped a sheriff, reported it to the sheriff that he needs to catch up with this trucker, Grady Hayden.
Reported it to the NRC Department of Transportation.
Never did find anybody who followed up on it.
Great.
East of the Rockies, you're on the Iowa Scott Ports Line.
Hi.
Yes, how are you doing?
I'm John in Houston.
Hi, John.
Yeah, I was wondering if you could make a comment about all the activity like the fault lines up there in California and everything.
You know, unsettling volcanic activity out there, seismic activity.
What do you think that would be on the neutral plant?
Alright, it is a reasonable question, yeah.
Seismic activity.
Scott, how many nuclear reactors do we have in this country that are in seismically unsafe locations?
I can't answer that question, and I don't know a great deal about the safety aspects of nuclear plants.
I've spent many years going into great detail about sabotage.
What I do know is I see reports every week from the NRC saying that certain equipment at this or that plant, and the names of plants all around the country, have not have their sufficient checks for a certain people equipment
against an earthquake
and things will shake apart in fact there is just a fine issue today i guess the nuclear power plant
i can't name it so i won't uh...
before they the altered their plan and did not take into account what
would happen if the dam on the river
due to an earthquake and the water level went down and they would lose the river
water intake because of that earthquake
uh... west of the rockies you're on the air was cut porcelain Hi.
Hi, Art.
This is Lenny from Burlington.
Yes, sir.
Burlington, Vermont, or California?
Washington.
Washington.
Yeah, I talked to you once before about Pax River.
You used to work in a nuclear power plant?
Yes, sir.
Your man obviously doesn't know anything about nuclear power plants.
All right.
How so?
Simple fact is, most of them are underground.
Most of the plant is underground.
They're not.
The containment structure will definitely withstand a 747.
Oh, excuse me.
Get my breath here.
I think that's what he said.
Yeah, I agree with him about that.
And some things I agree with him on.
What do you disagree on?
The reactor is not stainless steel.
It's carbon steel.
I personally did x-ray work on Calvert-Cliffs Nuclear Power Plant and Peach Bottom, which is just down the river from Three Mile Island.
Right.
I went to work at Calvert-Cliffs right after Three Mile Island.
They instituted, well let's put it this way, there are three diesel generators as backup.
Everything is redundant as all get out.
Chernobyl proved that the China Syndrome is not true.
It will not melt down through the earth.
Uh, the containment structures will hold.
No, you didn't say that.
I did.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Um, I called, by the way, I called, uh, Chernobyl two weeks before it happened.
A friend of mine said, when's it gonna happen?
I said, well, every day that they run, there's an accident waiting to happen.
Well, you heard his description, I'm sure, of, of what occurred at Three Mile Island.
Right.
Uh, do you disagree with the- Well, I can tell you, I saw the films of what happened, and we had, in fact, I met the guy that did it.
The, um, You didn't let me finish my question.
Do you disagree with the chronology of the way he described that accident or whatever it was that occurred?
Well, it was an accident.
There was no plot that's been proven over and over.
And I disagree.
What happened, actually, is they got a false reading.
They had an overpressure.
The safety valve released.
It did not close back.
It was supposed to close back.
And so the operator and I met him and talked to him.
I met him at Wolf Creek Nuclear Power Plant in Kansas where I was interviewing to be an instructor.
What he said is they couldn't make up their mind to believe which instrument.
So what was happening, they believed that the safety valve, the release valve not the safety valve, was closed.
So they didn't realize that they were given all this Venting all this moisture out is basically reactor coolant.
Let me prove to your caller that I do know what I'm talking about.
Okay, prove it.
I did say that earlier, that that's what stuck open, and there wasn't a great deal of confusion, and they did not know which to believe, as I mentioned earlier in this conversation, that they were looking at their gauges and they were giving false indications.
If they had known, if Three Mile Island hadn't falsified leak rates, which was the first federal offense ever convicted against I agree with that.
Am I accurate?
Yes, on that you're accurate.
temperatures on the other side of the uh... or about the uh...
high temperatures indicated that they had
coolant going through that property should have known it was still open i
agree with that and i agree yet on that you're accurate and okay and i think i
did get it is now an instructor teaching how not to do it right just like the uh...
they don't know about these about bills anyway or what's this man's name?
He looks like a Beverly Hillbillies, I don't remember his name.
Yeah, Bill Bayway.
Yeah, chews tobacco.
Right.
And stainless steel?
Yeah, it's not stainless steel, it's carbon steel.
you are and what about the other very important point and that is the
emergency backup valves work shot turned off
uh... well that you don't
do it and also i i think also does not serve they have four
injection tanks full of borated water
that the gravity feet Once it reaches a certain point, it would have flooded, which it did.
It's the core temperature, and we're talking on the fuel bundles, of each individual rod.
They're 13 foot long, and they're like 12 foot by 12 foot, I mean 12 inches squared, each bundle, okay?
What happened?
Was the core temperature for the uranium pellets, which is ceramic uranium pellets, inside a little bundle about the size of a pencil.
And there are like 130 some of these in each bundle.
What happened was the cladding, the outside metal that holds these little pellets together, melted.
Right, that's what he said.
That's what I've been talking about, and I agree with that.
Alright, then where is it you disagree?
I disagree about the plants being unsafe.
They really are.
It wasn't an accident.
It was unsafe.
Right.
I mean, I heard about this plot, you know, and a cult down the street.
That's all bull.
You haven't seen what I've seen.
I've shown this to people at the NRC.
I've shown this to newspaper editors.
I've shown it to Dauphin County detectives.
They all are encouraging.
Yeah, I heard about it myself.
But the simple fact is, if you met the Beverly Hillbilly and talked to him, You know, it's just a simple, he messed up.
He didn't believe when he should have.
There were obviously too many errors that happened during that accident, but no one knows how it started.
No one can explain why emergency feed water valve.
No one can explain why the port is stuck open.
No one can explain why the hot well line was broken.
Now, does it sound like I don't know what I'm talking about?
I've looked at over 30,000 pages of documents.
Let me just say one more thing.
The controversy, one side or the other, about whether it was sabotage or an accident, the fact is, it happened.
That's point one.
Point two is, Scott is saying that dry storage of spent fuel... They don't dry store it.
Spent fuel is always, always, and I am qualified New fuel inspector, you're not going to pick up any radiation from that.
What he's talking about on the cab, they ship nuclear fuel bundles in cabs.
They tested these cabs with plane wrecks, hit impact from a train, impact from a semi-truck.
Okay, that's new fuel.
It's not radioactive until you put it in the reactor.
Then, it reacts with all the rest of it and it gets hot.
Okay, but what Scott was saying is that in an intentional act of terrorism, There is still terrible danger.
Oh, sure.
Oh, sure.
No doubt about that.
And the fentanyl is the weak point.
I agree with that.
And these cats, by the way, have just been found to have fault, and they are no longer approved by the NRC.
What's that now?
The cats have just been found to have fault and are no longer approved.
They're double-checking that.
You need to stay current.
I have been staying current, man.
Alright, well, to me, frankly, it doesn't sound like the two of you disagree very much at all.
And on the most important point of all, frankly, and that is with respect to the possibility of terrorism and how open we are to the possibility of terrorism, whatever occurred at Three Mile Island, we agree it occurred.
And so if you agree with Scott that we are open to the possibility of nuclear sabotage and a plant going up with 100,000 people dying, Then that's what we're here to talk about, and there'll be more of it in a moment.
My guest is Scott Portsline.
For 13 years, he has studied the Three Mile Island accident-slash-sabotage.
Whatever it was, that's controversial.
Not controversial, apparently, is the threat to our nuclear facilities from those who would do us damage.
And there are many of those people in the world.
If you have questions for Scott on these subjects, we'll do another hour coming up.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 28, 1997.
All right, back now to Scott Porcelain.
Scott knows about things nuclear.
He's been looking into Three Mile Island for 13 years, covering more than 30,000 pages of documents, testimony, memorandums.
He has testified to the U.S.
Senate, Pennsylvania House of Representatives, the U.S.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission, the Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards, Following a vehicle intrusion at Three Mile Island, he has his own website.
We have a link to that website.
And if you want to see something that will chill your bones, go on up to my website now, and you'll see the link to Scott's right there.
In the meantime, back now to Scott.
Are you there?
Yes, I am.
All right, Scott.
No guarantees on the audience.
These are open lines, so... Oh, that's fine.
I get my banter up because when somebody accuses me of not knowing what I'm talking about, I definitely don't know all the safety issues, but as you saw, we ended up agreeing on more things than we disagreed, and he started out with an absurd statement that most plants are built underground.
I don't know of one.
Okay.
First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Hi, Dr. Scott.
Hi, Art.
Not doctor, just Scott Porcelain.
Okay, Scott, I'm calling from Sarasota, Florida.
I think, Art, your dad lives down here, doesn't he?
Close, yes.
Yeah, I just, you know, was just recently taking a canoe trip up Crystal River here in, well, central Florida.
And what's going on down here, like no one even talks about, you know, a hurricane?
Well, no, no, no.
With the manatees, well, the hurricanes, of course, but with the manatees, they come here in the winter to go through the outflow and hang out.
That's just good for them.
What's going on down here is like no one even thinks about.
What happened in Three Mile Island, if it happens here, what kind of ecological disaster Well, plants are designed to release radiation on a regular basis.
And there are limits and set guidelines on how much radiation can be released.
Some of this is in the form of water.
And who knows what health effects these have.
And it's very difficult to prove all of these things.
But any plant that has an accident can render huge amounts of geographic area useless.
And in fact, Florida is targeted by Cuba Their fighter jets and bomber jets have programmed into their targeting the nuclear plant in Florida.
Really?
Yes.
Well, that certainly would make perverted sense, I'm afraid.
Yeah.
Another interesting thing that just happened in Florida, August 14th last year, an insider, a worker at the St.
Lucie plant Put some sort of glue-like substance into switches that you need to turn a key, a key lock switch, and they rendered that equipment disabled on a backup panel.
If the plant had some sort of serious problem, and they were losing control of the reactor, and they needed to use the backup control panel, it was unavailable, and it could have had dire consequences.
There's a $10,000 reward if anybody knows who did that.
I dig it!
Yes, that's my concern.
with the possibility of internal sabotage or external terrorism than you
are about an accident. Yes, that's my concern. I'm convinced there's going to
be another accident too, but I can't think of anything more terrifying than
one successful attack against a US police officer.
plant because automatically you think, well, what about the plant I live near?
No, of course.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Scott Portsline in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
Hi, this is Jim, and I used to work at Hanford in the mid-80s.
Yes, Jim.
And I have friends who have been there recently working at the WHPS plant, and I've got to tell you, There is.
We already had an accident there, which was covered up.
That's right.
And it even had a deliberate release in the 40s.
Well, we had, at the Whoops plant, they released, excuse me, they had a runaway.
And it only, the first one, only lasted for about two and a half minutes.
Slow down.
A runaway what?
That means the reactor got away from them.
It's called a power explosion.
About four years ago.
Oh?
And, um, the problem was, the core that they loaded in, there was an anomaly in it, and, uh, one gentleman had calculated for it and said, I can't prove it, but we shouldn't start up.
They overrode him, and it got away from him for about two and a half minutes, and because it's only about, oh, four percent, um, uh, nuclear fuel rich, instead of having a blowup, it petered out.
They tried it a second time and it got away from them again.
It took them two and a half years to repeat his calculations and say, well, he might have been right.
But they went ahead and made this little jargonese report and buried it in our local paper and the NRC approved it so that nobody except the nuclear engineer Would understand what that really meant.
Now, the reason why this is so dangerous is one of my friends discovered on a routine inspection that the fire doors, the big doors that slam shut when an event happens, are defective.
They have not been corrected yet, but he was demoted and demoted and demoted.
Um, and would have been fired except he got a lawyer.
And then finally, he left and got a job in a computer chip industry.
And another one of my friends, these are good Christian people, they worked in the nuclear industry for over 10 years each, he had found out that there's a little catalytic converter type thing that if there's a release of, oh, tritium gas, you know, a nuclear radioactive gas, right, that it sucks that through this little catalytic converter and sequesters all of it.
Well, he did the calculations on it and realized that just having one of them wasn't sufficient.
If there was a big event, it could melt down and radiation would be released to the outside.
He was canned.
It happens on a monthly basis, by the way, where engineers realize these things and most of the time the utilities quiet them and demote them and punish them.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hello.
Hi, this is Rick from Plattsburgh.
Hello, Rick.
First, let me say, I love your show, and I just got on the net.
You're my number one bookmark.
Thank you.
I work in a hydro generation plant, and I'm going to say right off the bat, I don't know a whole lot about nuclear reactors or the way that that is done.
Give testimony to what an earlier caller, the nuclear guy, was saying about protection equipment.
In the electric industry there are, especially in my job, there are two different types of human protection or noting of protection equipment.
One is electrical and the other is mechanical.
They have what they call a mechanical tagging list.
And what we have to do, what that means is when a valve is closed or a mechanical device is altered in any way, changed from an on position for example to an off position or an open to a closed position, a tag is always written out and a form is filled out Indicating for the next person coming along, in case the equipment is down for a long period of time, what the position is of that piece of equipment.
Right.
Now, when I first started listening to the show, and you started explaining the scenario of events, I can only attest to what we do here.
That sheet is kept in the plant.
For that sheet to come up missing is very suspicious to me.
Oh, there's documents that say that many of the documents, original plant accident documents, are gone.
And they should have been kept there.
But what happened was the NRC didn't send out its investigators for two weeks.
So they lost a lot of that.
In fact, I'll read it to you from the official report.
The formal IE investigation, IE means Office of Investigation and Enforcement, The TMI accident was not initiated at the site until April 10, 1979, two weeks after the accident.
Members of the investigation team have stated that a trained investigator should have been dispatched with the initial response team to organize and retain portions of the supportive evidence, notes, logs, etc., which were lost during the initial days of the accident.
In fact, they also say that the investigators Well... Right.
training and an investigative technique or knowledge of the laws of evidence or
criminal procedures they wouldn't know in sabotage or criminal evidence if it
had been between the i think like right
uh... somebody could argue look three mile island is ancient history
and to some degree i will i would agree with that and i understand that you've
had reason to investigate for many years on i'm concerned with now
with all of these millions of people who live close to plants
and if there is not sufficient security of those plants if somebody with a truck bomb
or uh... handheld uh...
rocket of some kind uh... create an accident
accident hell create an active sabotage uh... terrorism
that would kill a hundred thousand people then we need to do something about
Let's talk about now, though, by the insiders.
Currently at Prima Island, there's a man working there who's a convicted sex crime.
He called himself a bad boy.
He was there at the time of the accident, and in his deposition, he called himself a bad boy.
And what he admitted to doing was breaking into a woman's home On three separate occasions, stealing her lingerie, masturbating on the lingerie.
The court prosecuted him and ordered him into psychiatric therapy, an electronic ankle bracelet to monitor his whereabouts.
And you're saying this person, without naming him please, is still employed at Three Mile Island?
He was employed there wearing his ankle bracelet.
While the court saw fit to keep him away from people, the plant said, you can keep working here.
Absolutely.
The fitness for duty programs are ineffective to some degree.
To some degree?
Well, they do catch some people every now and then.
There's a report of drug use or alcohol use every week.
There's been murder committed at nuclear plants.
Suicide.
Reactor engineers have sabotaged fuel.
In 40 days, exactly 40 days after the Three Mile Island accident, reactor operators at Surrey, Virginia sabotaged new fuel assemblies by dumping something like Drano into the water.
Great.
Onto the assemblies.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hello.
Yes, hello, gentlemen.
Where are you, ma'am?
I'm in Las Vegas.
Alright.
Alright, I'm not what is conveniently and arbitrarily called a conspiracy nut or anything.
And I want to preface what I'm about to say with a disclaimer.
I am not encouraging anyone to smoke.
So now we got that out of the way.
I've been, this is partly research, 50% research and 50% woman's intuition.
Looking at the timeline of Three Mile Island, as well as all the tasks in various facilities that are leaking radiation, by the way, material, I'm noticing that suddenly You mentioned how there was inconclusive evidence, so they drew all the stuff out of court, and yet look how quickly they came up with conclusive evidence about secondhand smoke.
What I think is that they are using that as a mask, okay?
Because of the timeline, after Three Mile Island, all of this junk that's coming out into the atmosphere that they're not telling us about.
Better that we blame secondhand smoke than radiation.
And we sue the cigarette companies instead of the government.
The reason I say that is we've got a lot less people smoking in this country now, and yet the incidence of leukemia and lung cancer has gone dramatically up.
Yes, I know.
Yes, and so what my suggestion is is that they are using the secondhand smoke conclusively, whereas they throw the other evidence out about the radiation and won't even listen to it.
there's something highly suspicious about that if you look back at the
time when they start leaning on the secondhand smoke
it coincides with right after three mile island plus all of this waste material that's escaping in so many
facilities uh... i really think people should think about that it won't
be the first time we were uh...
duped bamboozled All right, thank you.
Your caller offered a great deal of insight there, Art.
It may not just be a simple conspiracy, but the timing does reflect the fact that there's been a great deal of radiation released around the world with the atmospheric bomb testing going back into the 40s, which had to be stopped.
That's how serious it was.
You know, the military can get away with a lot of things, but when they make the military change their procedures, it had to be serious.
When they used to do testing, The Rochester, New York Kodak plant actually had film destroyed from fallout, at least on one occasion that I know of.
Film destroyed from fallout?
Yeah, the radioactive particles will leave a streak on the film as it ionizes the film.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Where are you calling from?
Hi, Will, WTTY Madison, Wisconsin.
Yes, Will.
A friend of mine and I were in Sweden and Finland at the time when Chernobyl blew up.
Clouds went over us.
Tragically, the rain fell in the mountains of Sweden and northern Finland.
The Lats had to destroy their reindeer.
They couldn't sell their meat.
They became very poor.
Russia!
The nuclear power plants in Russia are Walking time bombs.
The Finns have taken over, bought nuclear plants from them, and they have found minute fracture cracks in their containment vessels.
The Finns have had to redo them all over again.
It is a hideous disaster, and there are people in Russia who don't give a darn.
They'll let those power plants blow.
Unfortunately, a very good point.
Yeah, the real gambling is not going on in Las Vegas.
It's going on in the Soviet Union, and it's going on in all the nuclear plants.
All right.
Wal-Mart line, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hello.
Good morning, Art and Scott.
Hi.
You know, I accept the concern for all this nuclear waste that's left around.
I've myself been to Rancho Seca a few times, which is a closed nuclear facility, and they run you through the gauntlet, coming and going, to see if anything's coming in or going out.
What about all the waste that's been dumped into the oceans?
I don't know a great deal about that subject.
I only know that the Soviets have dumped a tremendous amount.
Well, that and we have one nuclear ex-Soviet submarine that they know is leaking right now from the missiles on board.
That's correct.
Yeah, they're torpedoes.
That's correct.
We have quite a few that we've dumped there off the coast of New Jersey in the one trench out there.
Quite a bit of that stuff was dumped in just mere 55-gallon drums.
I didn't know that.
But also, Art, I need to give you a number if you want to cut me off or whatever.
I'm going to have to give it to you anyway for you to check on something.
Well, you mean a phone number?
Yes.
No, not on the air, sir.
I'm glad to put you on hold because I'm coming up to a break here.
Okay, that's fine.
So I'm going to put you on hold.
Stay there and I'll get back to you in a moment.
Scott, hold on.
We're at a break point here.
We will continue to take calls for Scott Porchline for the next 30 minutes.
So, if you have questions, and I can see you do by the way the lines are going, come now.
Once again, here I am.
Any of you with questions for Scott Porchline should come now.
Back now to Scott Portsline.
Scott, are you there?
Yes, I am.
Alright, back to the lines.
Let's see what we've got.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Hi, Scott?
Yes?
I wanted to ask, that 85 Krypton release?
Yes.
What was the measurement of that?
I don't know.
Where are you, ma'am?
Oh, I'm calling you from Anchorage, Alaska.
Alright.
All I know is it was ruled illegal by the United States District Court.
Okay.
I'm concerned with, in fact, I'm part of a task force that's investigating the radiation releases from Antiqua Island out in the Aleutian Chain.
I'm not familiar with that.
I know who would be.
The Nuclear Information Resource Services in Washington, D.C.
And you can get to them through a link on my page.
Okay, but we are the task force who's doing the investigation.
In fact, we just met with the committee today.
Oh, great.
We have an ongoing investigation right now.
Well, what do you know?
Quite a bit.
And there has been heavy leakage out there.
In fact, a test was conducted by Greenpeace during this last summer.
And there was news release at the end of October regarding their findings.
Is that a military reactor?
Uh, no.
Those were the three atomic test sites that were actually the creation of the Spartan Warhead.
Oh, okay.
And these were the largest that were conducted by the United States.
So these test sites are leaking into the environment?
Right, and they are leaking, definitely.
Alright, well, I hope you will keep Scott informed, and definitely please keep me informed.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Hi, George.
Nice to meet you, Scott.
Real quick, I'm in Arizona, Phoenix, right now.
Two questions, one on the topic.
We have a nuclear power plant here west of Phoenix called Palo Verde.
Palo Verde, the only site where off-site desabateurs took down the off-site power lines, three of the four power lines.
Yes, sir, and last year we had a problem with some cooling rods, I believe.
That's right.
Real quick, I'll mention my two questions, I'll let you get off the show.
Do you know anything about the cooling rods?
Have they contained that?
And since I'm on the wild card line, real quick, Ark, last year I lived in Sedona for a year.
Not to mention anything about the aliens, but I do have a question.
Do you have any knowledge on the underground base north of Sedona?
No, not personally.
And it doesn't relate to what we're talking about right now.
Scott, what do you know about the reactor near him?
I believe that problem was with the control rods.
They're called control rods, not cooling rods.
And they go down into the core to interfere with the transmission of the neutrons.
That's one of the methods of stopping and controlling the chain reaction.
And I believe the problem, I didn't follow up on it, but I believe the problem was The drop times of control rods.
In other words, these are controlled with electric drive motors, and gravity will allow them to drop very quickly into the core.
They must meet a guideline of how quickly they drop.
And over a period of time, they develop some sort of crud, and they can't drop quickly enough.
So I think that's what that problem was.
And I'm sure, well, I'm not sure, but you would hope by now that they have it At an acceptable level without having to re-analyze the condition.
And sometimes what the nuclear industry will do is say, okay, we're going to change where that guideline is into our favor so they can continue operating.
And what was that about power lines cut?
I believe it was 1986, a group of saboteurs.
It's the only incident I know of in the United States where they weren't members of the nuclear industry sabotaging a plant.
Deliberately.
Well, I've got to not say how they did it.
Of course, it's not too hard to figure out how to take down a power line.
But they did it in a stealthy manner with vehicles.
And they lost three of the four off-site power supply lines to the plant.
They did it at a time when the reactors were all shut down.
So I guess they knew what they were doing.
They were trying to send a message that they were against nuclear power.
And I think that's a very poor way to do it.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Hey, this is Mike from Milwaukee.
Hello, Mike.
Uh, yeah, I got a few questions for you, Scott.
Okay.
Uh, did you know anything about the, uh, Sheboygan, Wisconsin power plant, nuclear power plant?
Is that, uh, Point Beach?
Yes, I believe that's the one.
I don't know too much about it.
Alright, well, I just was informed over summer that Not too long ago, there was some kind of explosion there.
Some hydrogen explosion.
Oh, I think that hydrogen explosion was one of the dry casks.
There was a very minor hydrogen burn.
It could be classified as an explosion.
And it had to do with welding the top on the cask.
I'm pretty sure that's what you're referring to.
There actually was a hydrogen explosion in the Three Mile Island accident with all the release of hydrogen from the cladding as it melts.
The cladding contains the fuel pellets releases a tremendous amount of hydrogen.
They thought they had a huge hydrogen bubble in there that could blow the whole thing up to pieces.
And it burned at the pressure of 28 pounds per square inch.
So it's not much of an explosion, but it was classified as an explosion.
And by the way, the control room operators heard that bump and they thought it was a valve closing or some sort of equipment operating.
They weren't sure what it was.
Well, what that does indicate is, if you have a commando-style attack, and let's say they're doing it through stealth, someone could use a small charge to gain access to some of the locked doors, and they could blow the door open.
A Navy SEAL team, and this was brought up at one of the hearings, could render these locked doors useless within 15 seconds.
But, the NRC has recently seen fit To do away with the locked door requirements, and now players can leave their doors unlocked if they wish to.
Why?
We seem to be going in reverse.
Why is that?
Money.
It's always money.
You have to have a certain amount of guard, you have to have a lot of time spent on security, going, checking these people, and using metal detectors, and logging them in buildings and out of buildings, and it takes a lot of time and slows down work.
They don't want to slow down work, they want to be more competitive with the other West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portzline.
Hello.
Hi, it's Marianne in Clear Lake, California.
Hello there.
Scott, I just wanted to say you're a very courageous person.
You know, there have been people murdered over this.
We've seen movies about them, etc.
I have a question.
Well, one little question before my main question.
I was out of the room an hour ago, and your answer was something about the thyroid gland, and I didn't hear the question.
I believe they were talking about what can you do to protect yourself, and there's potassium iodide, which the President's Commission, after the Fremont Island accident, suggested that we should all have that made available to us.
It's very cheap, and just last month, or within the last couple of weeks, which it was, a lawyer for the NRC My main thing I wanted to ask was when I was between like the 5th and the 8th grade I lived in Las Vegas, Nevada.
I remember my bedroom lighting up brighter than sunlight at about 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning.
Then later when the sun came up we walked outside and we looked at this mushroom cloud going over to the east.
I wondered if one of these explodes, what's the difference?
Do you know, can you compare what it is like compared to what we were exposed to at that time?
And of course we were told this was okay, and at that time we all believed our government.
What is the difference in the exposure?
It really is a good question.
A nuclear detonation of the type that we had above ground here in Nevada, not far from where I am, compared to the possibility of a breach Or a major breach at a nuclear power plant.
Yes.
What would be the difference?
First of all, the main difference is there's no chance of a nuclear explosion at a commercial nuclear power plant.
Understood.
That could only happen at the enrichment plants, and they're very careful with that, although they do have problems and they do have fires every now and then.
The primary difference is the initial burst, if it were above ground, the direct shine of radiation It would be an enormous amount, and then for the first few hours it's quite a large amount of radiation.
But at a nuclear power plant, you have more than a thousand times the radioactive force term contained in these plants compared to one single burst.
So over the long run especially, there's just no comparison to the radioactive damage that can happen.
That's what is hard to get into a lot of people's heads, so I appreciate that question.
Alright, good.
I appreciate it, too.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hi.
Hi, Tom from Kansas.
Hi, Tom.
I just had a couple of things.
He brought up diesel generators and basically mentioned that you could disable a unit by taking out the diesel generators and the power coming into the plant.
That's not true.
That's not exactly what I meant to say.
The plant would have to be in trouble to some degree and they must not have any other source of power which could be a second or third reactor at the plant.
A second or third reactor?
Well, they have another source of power that you haven't brought up.
What's that?
Batteries?
Correct.
They only last for a short period of time and cannot operate the heavy pumps that would
be necessary to move water contained in 12 and 14 inch pipes and even larger.
You're absolutely correct.
My problem is you can't wait until a diesel generator starts.
You have to have batteries online so that if you do lose power from the outside, you have to have the batteries to keep the control room active.
Uh, and those, actually those batteries, they can run for up to about 12 hours on those batteries.
Yeah, but his point was they can't supply... The controlling can't.
Large pumps can't.
Right.
His point was they can't supply enough current to run a pump.
He's correct.
Uh, and that's where I, uh, you almost have to have, uh, a lot of the, you know, well, Coming back, you talked a little bit about truck bombs and things like that.
The problem I'm having here is seeing how you almost have to have the emergency feed water, the cooling water, to actually have a serious problem.
Well, there are many ways to have a serious problem.
You're just mentioning one.
All right, thank you very much, caller.
Um, wild card line, you're on, whoops, would have been on the East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain.
Hello.
Oh, uh, let me turn off the radio.
That's good.
Yes, hello?
Uh, yeah, this is Nate in San Antonio.
San Antonio, where is that?
San Antonio, Texas.
Oh, okay.
Oh, San Antonio.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
This isn't what I was calling about, but that thing that fell from the sky?
Yes.
That's part of a Saturn rocket, they said.
Now they're saying a Saturn rocket.
All right.
Well, I appreciate that information, sir.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hello.
Hello.
I have a couple... Turn your radio off, please.
It's going.
I have a bit of information that may be pertinent to some of the statements made today, like radiation sickness, I understand, can be very well taken care of with a simple miso soup.
Which was determined after we dropped some bombs on Japan.
And as far as throwing nuclear waste, I don't see how anything with a half-life of 100,000 years could possibly be called economical.
Yeah, you raise an incredibly good point.
Even a moral issue.
Is it right for our generation to benefit from electricity generated by nuclear plants that will require our future generations' grandchildren, we couldn't even count, What if the Egyptians put something in those pyramids that we are constantly spending a billion dollars a year to maintain?
for electricity we generated now that is a good question that really is a good question a hundred thousand years
how dare you do something that's going to last a hundred thousand years
what if the Egyptians put something in those pyramids that we are constantly
spending a billion dollars a year to maintain we'd be mad at them wouldn't we
uh...
that's an understatement First time Caller Line, you're on the air with Scott Portzline.
Hi.
Yes, good morning Art.
It's a pleasure to speak with you and your guest.
This is Clark from Chicago.
Yes, Clark.
I'm a truck driver over the road.
I drive a tanker and about a year and a half ago I delivered down in the southeast to a nuclear power plant.
Now, you know, a lot of these trucking companies are hurting for people and I can imagine them hiring some people that have some untoward intentions toward our country.
And I noticed passing the first security gate how so-called easy it was to get into this power plant.
I mean, of course, I had an appointment.
They expected me.
But if I had un, you know, perverted intentions toward our beloved country, I could have done some serious damage, you know, because I had to leave my truck for about five minutes or so, and I was less than a thousand feet from these, I don't know, I guess they're, aren't these the discharges where they have the, they look like mushrooms when you cut them off, the little stems left in the ground that to be what this uh...
smoker those were the part that the nuclear uh... reactors are
i don't know i think what you're describing is the air exchange uh...
i'm really not sure what you're describing okay for that it's it it would be things that have like steam coming out
of the I guess there's like water that filtrates down through them.
Hey, that sounds like something to do with the pumping of the intake water supply to the river, lake, ocean, etc.
Yeah.
Well, you know, they put me through this rigorous screening.
I had to go through a metal detector.
They searched my truck.
In fact, the lady that was searching my truck said that, you know, some truck drivers come through with a bad attitude and they figure, well, heck, you know, this is all we got to do all day and you're trying to get out of here.
But, you know, It was just amazing how I had one person that was literally with me the whole time.
That's good.
I'm sorry?
That's good.
That's the way it should be.
Oh, hey, you know, because I was kind of saying, you mean there are people in this country or in the world that would want to do this to us?
It happens every other month.
There's an insider act of sabotage every other month.
Every other month?
Yes.
At some plant somewhere in this country?
In this country.
It can be security guards, it can be reactor operators, it can be anybody.
Where do you get that information?
At the NRC public document rooms.
Also from the Union of Concerned Scientists, who was headed up for the nuclear division by a former NRC inspector named Robert Pollard.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Porcelain, hello.
Hi, this is Ed from Milwaukee.
Yes, hi Ed.
I was wondering if you were there, how you would be able to get some information and Alright, well, Scott, do you send out any information to people, or do you want to make a recommendation to people, or do you have a contact number or address, or what?
Yeah, I would contact the Nuclear Information Resource Services.
If they don't have the information, they know who would.
They're in Washington, D.C., and I could probably, well, I don't have my Rolodex in front of me.
So you could get to them through my link on the page.
And I don't have a... I have some answers to the safety issues, but I don't have the expertise I need to discuss all of them.
Do you have, on your web page, is there a way to send you email?
Yes.
Alright, so they can go to your web page and they can send you email from there.
That's at least one way to get a hold of you.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Andy in Southern California.
Hi Andy.
One question, what about time and distance in case of a nuclear meltdown at a plant?
Good question.
Sure, one of the things you might need to do is run as fast as you can.
Is there any, I guess it would depend on the speed of the wind, direction of the wind, all kinds of things.
Question to answer.
It is because you could actually be traveling in the direction of the wind.
The wind literally carries the radiation and plumes.
So you could literally have radiation on one side of the street be at higher levels than radiation on the other side of the street.
Alright.
Well, I'm talking about, you know, distance also.
You know, how far.
Well, what do you mean how far?
Uh, how far are you from a plant?
Uh, Planet Ophry?
Which is how far?
Oh, about 60 miles.
60 miles.
Well, I'd start to get a little bit comfortable around that distance, but the truth is, you know, the size of the state, the size of Pennsylvania, I think that's 240 miles across.
I'm not even sure of that, but judging from the turnpike signs when I'm in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh is about that far away.
All right.
I don't know how far.
The blowout from Chernobyl circled the globe.
It sure did.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Scott Portsline.
Hi.
Yeah, how's it going?
It's going.
Yeah, um, this is Joe from Milwaukee.
Yes.
Yes, I was wondering, um, how, how would it be that somebody could get in from, I mean, get through a truck through the border like that?
All right, well, I'll tell you what.
You visit his webpage and the answer is going to be staring you right in the face.
Uh, that's what I would suggest.
Can I describe the intrusion?
Do I have time to do that?
Yeah, sure, sure.
Okay, just before 7 o'clock in the morning on the 7th of February, 1993, a 31-year-old man suffering from mental illness drove alongside the river towards the plant and goes past the unarmed guard at the north gate.
You'll see the picture of the gate now with the new vehicle barrier.
At that point, he's breached the outer level of security called the owner-controlled area.
He continues across the bridge and crashes through a closed fence gate, and he's now reached the inner, uh, the second area called the protected area.
His car pushes the bottom of the gate upward, pivoting upward, allows his car to pass through, and he drives another 190 feet or so, and literally crashes right through the turbine building door.
The door falls down on his car, his car stops 63 feet inside the turbine building, and he now exits the vehicle.
He hides in the darkened valley of the condenser pit for nearly four hours before he's caught.
All right.
I think you answered that perfectly, Scott.
Scott, thank you for being with us this morning.
You have informed many, many people.
Thank you, my friend.
Oh, thank you very much.
Take care.
That's Scott Quartzline in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
Open lines just ahead.
That's exactly what it is.
Top of the morning everybody, I'm Art Bell.
A couple of hours of absolutely open lines yet ahead.
And I'm going to read something to you again because so many of you have requested it.
It is with regard to Telstar 401.
That was a major geosynchronous satellite that appears to be gone.
And what I'm reading to you, so that you know, ...is from Stanton Friedman.
Stanton is a nuclear physicist.
It was printed through the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies.
Scientists at AT&T are still scratching their heads, wondering what might have happened to their multi-million dollar geosynchronous communications satellite, Telstar 401, that disappeared from its Earth orbit Early Saturday, let me repeat that, disappeared from its Earth orbit Saturday.
No signs of impending problems were detected.
All circuits were functioning normally, when suddenly all signals coming from the bird simply stopped.
The North American Air Defense Command, located in Colorado Springs, Colorado, did report a large unknown object Near the position of Telstar 401, moments before the satellite quit working.
Quote, It looked like a large meteor closing in on 401, said NORAD commander, Major General John Yancey, Jr.
However, on the next sweep of the tracking radar, there was nothing there.
No meteor, no satellite, no debris.
We don't know what happened, But if the two bodies had collided, we would expect to see some debris left behind.
NORAD is responsible for tracking objects in space and knows the location of tons of space debris as small as a few centimeters in size.
And that, folks, is from Stanton Friedman.
Other sources are indicating there was some sort of solar flare Or storm that knocked out the satellite.
But I must tell you, in similar, very nearby, geosynchronous orbits, there are many, many satellites.
And such a storm, it seems to me, would have affected them as well.
Now, I know Stanton quite well, and I'll try and get in touch with him and find out more about this for you, but it is most curious And I've heard no report indicating that 401 is still there, but simply radio dead, or television dead, as you wish.
The Simpson jury finally got the O.J.
Simpson case.
They retired, deliberated for about 90 minutes, did not reach a verdict, and will resume that tomorrow.
A little bit of a scare earlier in the day.
It was very interesting.
I was watching CNN and a couple of jurors were called in the judges chambers and there was some speculation that the whole trial might be down the tubes.
That was not the case.
Close, but not the case.
President Clinton held a news conference yesterday in which he admitted that with regard to campaign finance there were Mistakes made.
And you can translate that in the way it ought to be translated.
When a politician says, mistakes were made, it's usually pretty serious.
The FBI carried out coast-to-coast raids as part of an undercover U.S.
investigation of computer software privacy.
Make that piracy.
A code named CyberStrike, which probably did not involve a lot of privacy.
The search warrants allege violations of U.S.
code against copyright infringement, and we all know a lot of that is going on on the Internet.
In Peru, they are blasting the rebels holding the hostages now with music.
And it seems like in every, and apparently, uh, let's see, what kind of music?
Well, there was a musical battle.
And it seems as though in every kind of standoff of this sort, they end up doing exactly that.
Blasting music at the people.
And it never works.
I was done in Panama.
Was done in Waco.
Now is being done in Peru.
And music never seems to make anybody give up.
Ever.
So, I wonder why they do it.
Now, that two-foot diameter metal ball that came down in Texas, according to a caller, now is said to be part of some U.S.
rocket.
And if that was the case, then you would think the Air Force would keep the peace.
Maybe not.
I don't know.
First, they said it was part of somebody's propane tank or something.
And now they're saying it was part of a rocket?
Well, which is it?
A propane tank would explode, and you would presume it would throw something some distance, but certainly the object that we've got photographed on the webpage looks as though it re-entered the atmosphere, and now the story apparently is that it did.
Interesting shift.
So, in a moment, we're going to go to open lines.
Everybody hang tight.
Anything you want to talk about, fair game.
That's the way it works here.
We don't screen calls.
We just pick them up.
So, belt in and prepare yourself.
You're listening to Art Bell's Somewhere in Time on Premier Radio Networks.
Tonight, an encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM from January 28, 1997.
All right, to the phones.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello, Art.
Hi, sir.
This is Robert, San Joaquin Valley.
Yes, sir.
I've been listening to the program.
I was with Michael Douglas, Jim Nelson, in the making of The China Syndrome.
Oh, really?
Yes, sir.
At the time we made that movie at the old Columbia Studios, it was ten days prior The release of the film was ten days prior to the Three Mile Island accident.
And three days after we released the film, nuclear physicist came on the news and said that the chances of something occurring like we depicted in that movie, the chances were one in ten million.
Well, seven days after he made the statement, the Three Mile Island accident occurred, which was far worse.
I remember that coincidence, yes.
Yes, sir.
We were not stating in this film prior or after that that type of an accident could occur.
We were trying to alarm the people to the fact that there could be accidents.
And as far as this gentleman earlier, your guest, Scott, he is correct as far as the cover-up of accidents.
I'm in the process now of preparing to come out with a I wouldn't call it a sequel.
Jim Bridges, who wrote the screenplay, he is deceased.
But we've gathered sufficient evidence and information.
We think that it's important to bring out new evidence in a new film.
As to what is occurring, we feel that we have now reached a point with research that we need to replace these nuclear power plants.
Well, I'll look forward to Your progress, and I hope you'll keep us informed, I thought what Scott had to say was very, very important.
And I am personally a lot more concerned.
You know, there are safety issues that are valid.
Yes, sir.
But boy, I'll tell you, if somebody really sets out to, I mean, you worry about somebody bringing a nuclear weapon into the U.S., I think this is a much bigger worry.
And that is intentional sabotage or, worse yet, terrorism at a plant.
I believe this is the only warfare that this country has to be alarmed of today.
I appreciate your call, sir.
Thank you.
And that's why I thought this was a very important program.
First-time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Oh, I think we just missed somebody.
Sorry about that.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Eric.
How's it going?
I have a question for you.
Sure.
Actually a couple quick ones.
This is Ed from Lockheed again.
Yes.
I was wondering how you like that Super Bowl?
I loved it.
In fact, you really took care of business, didn't you?
Yes.
Yeah, I was wondering if you could do that Chupacabra voice?
Chupacabra?
Oh, you mean the...
The scream or whatever it was?
Yeah, the scream.
I was wondering if you could do that.
Uh, no, that isn't a chupacabra scream, sir.
Oh.
That's a Bigfoot scream.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I get mixed up.
Um, right, well... I'll try and get it on for you.
Yes, I've got it here, but it... It causes domestic animals to have bad moments.
And I hear about it always when I do it.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi, this is Chicken.
Now, we're here at the Beach, Delaware.
Yes, sir.
I used to live in Wellington, Delaware, which is not too far from the artificial island plant.
Which sticks pretty much out into the Delaware River.
Right.
I always thought it would be so easy for somebody to just go up the Delaware River with a small rocket and blow up artificial island.
Yeah.
And wipe out everything from Philly to, say, Cape May.
I know.
Because it wouldn't just be the wind that took the radiation, but the water.
The water.
Yeah, I think this is a very serious very serious danger and I think Scott is right on target and I don't care what anybody has to say we should examine possibilities and prepare for them because the alternative is horrible if something would occur you know big deal that we thank you would increase budgets later that we should have the National Guard surrounding nuclear plants
I don't know if we need all that.
I don't know.
I haven't done 13 years of research as he has.
But I'm thoughtful on the matter, and if you listen to this program, you should be too.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello?
Hello?
Yes, you're on the air.
Oh, I wanted to ask you, I'll tell you that This is Dorothy from Realtyville, California.
Yes.
And what I see in this here Three Mile Island and the nuclear centers, they have to demand the people enforced to get any action done, all state by state, or just Just a humongous amount of people.
If we started with all your listeners, then that would be the first step in getting action.
Well, that was the idea, dear lady, of the program.
To try to get action.
And to try to get an honest examination of what the dangers are, the real dangers, with regard to somebody who would be intent on killing a lot of us.
And believe me, there are a lot of people out there who don't like our butts.
But I don't really need to tell you that, do I?
And we've imagined people constructing from loose bomb-grade material a bomb and sneaking it into the country.
Well, if you listen carefully to what Scott said, there could be a radiation release a thousand times worse than a bomb Uh, simply by, um, blowing up or properly sabotaging one of these reactors.
Are you with me here?
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello?
Hello?
Turn your radio off, please.
Turn the radio off.
Hi there.
Hi.
Hang on, let me turn the radio off.
Well, he's got something wrong with his phone line there.
I'm going to move on.
That's a bad phone line.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
KQMS from California.
Well, there she is.
Hello.
Hey, you know, you're not kidding about that telescope thing.
Don't sneeze.
That's right.
You're gone.
That's right.
I really hated that.
That's why I gave it up.
Really?
Well, you know, I kept fumbling around in the dark, and I was trippled on my tripod, and it was awful.
Yeah, there's a lot of that that goes on, but there are also very satisfying moments.
Well, I love looking at the moon, and that's the only thing I love looking at, is binoculars.
Well, I'll tell you what, binoculars are good, and particularly for comet hunting, binoculars are actually better.
Really?
Yeah, they really are.
Well, listen, when you log on to a chat room, how do people know it's really you?
Well, because I say so.
Yeah, but there's people who call themselves Art Doe and... I know, imitators, imitators, imitators.
Listen, I have an idea.
You know, the EPA is really very ineffective concerning toxic waste?
Yes.
Well, why don't we just pay the mafia to dump it properly?
Um... You know, I speak up.
I'm a very big fan of private sector... Well, because they can't make money that way.
Make it so they can make money.
Private sector... There is a... The mafia has really moved in on the toxic waste disposal business.
No, but we need to start thinking about this.
You can be pretty sure that they're not taking care of it the way you would have it done.
Pay them to take care of it the way we'd have it done.
Pretty much midnight dump where you can.
Well, then you should stop that.
You know, we're going to have to start taking care of this now, because Environmental Protection Agency is a big blowout.
It didn't work.
Yeah.
Not when we have the mafia dumping radiation in the ocean.
In fact, it's kind of a joke.
It makes us look really stupid.
Well, in a lot of respects, we are.
I know.
We need to start taking care of our Earth now.
And I want to know what you would do to make the private corporations, you know, take care of the Earth properly.
What we could do as a private sector?
Well, we'd have to start changing a lot of things.
Scott Porcelain brought up a good point.
Consider the morality of generating electricity today and enjoying it at a cheap rate, but at the cost of a hundred thousand years of guarding these materials, we are going to be cursed by our children's children's children.
That's exactly right, and we have no place to put our trash.
Yeah.
We should stop making it.
You know, what are we going to do with all that nuclear waste?
We'll blow it out into space.
You know what would happen if there really were aliens and we blew our nuclear waste out into space?
They would come and bomb us.
So there's those piggy, trashy earthlings.
Maybe they'd simply send it back our way.
Yeah, well we would deserve it too.
Right things.
Yeah.
Consider the morality of burdening our children in so many generations.
More than all of recorded human history into the future.
We are selfish, aren't we?
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hey, how's it going?
This is Mike from Milwaukee again.
Hi, Mike.
You didn't call earlier, did you?
Oh yeah, I called earlier.
No, just one call per show.
I say again, West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Yes, this is Stu in Phoenix.
Hi, Stu.
Yeah, I just stepped away from the Three Mile Island program for a minute.
I tried to call you last night.
Somebody had apparently emailed you about a TV program dealing with the essence of the soul.
That's correct.
Yes, I think the program he was questioning or wondering about was an episode of In Search Of, which was hosted by Leonard Nimoy.
Yes, and on that show, they showed an actual photograph that was taken at the moment of death, which showed, uh, hazy something floating upward from the body.
Um, they also referenced, I believe, the report that I've got up on the webpage.
Uh, yes they did.
They, they, uh, did that extensively.
And used that, right, and used that as the basis of what they did.
I would very much like to see that, and somebody out there somewhere has it.
There's one gentleman who had it in, uh, Super VHS, or whatever it is, which is not compatible with normal VHS, unfortunately, but I'm sure we'll get a copy.
You're exactly right, and I wonder about a lot of things.
I wonder about, for example, in this 1907 medical report, I think there is enough evidence that there should have been more recent experiments trying to either duplicate or knock down this, but there haven't been.
Not that I know of.
Yes, well, that's probably due to the fact that, as I've said before, science is a religion, and anything that flies in the face of the high priests of science, and what they prefer to believe, they don't want to mess with.
You're exactly right.
Thank you very much, sir.
Okay.
Take care.
We'll be right back.
Tomorrow night.
No, actually, tonight.
This is always very confusing.
Tonight, Kathy Kramer will be here, along with her dad.
Now, who is Kathy Kramer?
Kathy is the sister of the bass player for Iron Butterfly, back in the 60s and 70s.
He's missing.
Missing!
And, he's got a very strange story.
I mean, this man, Uh, dropped out, left Iron Butterfly.
Uh, maybe you remember Inagana DeVita, one of the great songs back then.
Was part of that.
Then dropped out, went back to school, got a 4.0 in electrical engineering, worked at Northrop Aerospace, headed the team that designed the inertial guidance system for the MX missile.
I said, headed the team.
His father is a professor emeritus of electrical engineering, currently continuing his research on gravity waves.
And at the time he came up missing, he was working on faster-than-light travel, and he suddenly disappeared.
Gone!
Off the face of the Earth!
We're going to have both Kathy And her father on tomorrow night, and we're going to discuss this.
It is a fascinating case.
As a matter of fact, I believe a TV show is due to do something on this shortly.
We'll find out about that tomorrow night, but that's coming tonight.
Excuse me, tonight.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
This is PJ from Canyon Country.
Yes, sir.
One thing I'd like to bring up is the fact that in America, we have a lot of different types of nuclear power plants.
Whereas in France, they have like one prototype.
So if anything goes wrong, you basically have the same type of people working on the same type of problem.
So that it can be solved easier.
So kind of like with the Apollo 13 disaster, they were able to go to a simulator and precisely duplicate the problem and solve it in that way.
Right.
Sure.
I follow.
Yeah.
I'd just like to see nuclear power be done away with, but I don't know.
Look, I don't know if I take that position.
I've always been kind of a friend to nuclear power, but I absolutely agree with Scott that this possibility of sabotage, or worse yet, terrorism, is horrible.
Absolutely horrible.
I mean, do we want to see 100,000 dead?
Do we want to see something the size of Pennsylvania uninhabitable for years in this country?
Uh-uh.
Yeah.
Is it possible?
Yes.
Yeah.
So, should we do something now, or should we have Senate hearings after it occurs?
Oh, well, I think it's going to happen after it occurs.
Yeah, so do I. That's the way it works in this country.
I know.
I'll see you.
See you.
See, that's exactly what I envisioned.
Wildcard Line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Yes, good evening.
Good evening.
Yeah, my name is Jerry.
I'm calling from Salem.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, some folks from New Zealand were calling about a satellite that they were paying for that was being, I guess, all the information was being sent there.
I read in the Oregonian about a week before they were asking about it.
Sir, I don't know what you're talking about.
Well, there was a satellite the United States launched, and the people in New Zealand were complaining and having riots, I guess, and protesting that they were paying millions of dollars for this satellite.
And what it was was an X-ray satellite.
They didn't know what it was doing.
Yeah, I heard something about this.
Yeah, and the one it's replacing, this one here, is like 100 times more powerful.
So, you know, I don't know what they want to look like.
Anyway, I saw a hale-bop through my new telescope.
You did?
Yes, I did.
I was watching it with my binoculars for months, and all I could see was like a big halo, but with my new telescope, I could see it.
It's just a beautiful aqua blue color, kind of a green tint to it, and it's not turning or spinning.
I couldn't see any other objects behind it, but however, when I was observing it with my binoculars, I could see that It had a pulsating light, kind of like a searchlight they used during the World War II looking for the bombers, but on a very tight pattern.
Also, you were saying something earlier tonight about the music they were playing at Waco, Texas.
I believe that was contained subliminal messages to the people inside, kind of like a psychological warfare.
Well, that and the sound of dying rabbits and hard Metal bands and that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I believe he was playing Tibetan music.
I was watching that Waco Texas Siege live with a friend of mine.
Well, none of that has ever worked.
I mean, I've seen them try it again and again and again.
It has not flushed out one bad guy yet.
No, it hasn't, but I imagine they get a little stressed out, though.
Make it a little hard for them to think.
Well, that may be so, but if they're in there holding hostages, why would you want to stress them out?
It seems to me you would want to reason with them.
Is that not what a hostage rescue team does?
They go in and try to reason and build a relationship, not cause people who are already a hair-trigger.
I mean, we've heard how many gunshots down in Peru?
Just about every other day you hear a report of gunshots and you see the teams outside scrambling around.
So, Putting people on edge who are already on edge.
I don't know how good an idea that is.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
Steve from South Dakota.
Hi, Steve.
Haven't talked to you for a couple of weeks.
Yes.
How are you and your scope getting along?
Very well.
We're finally beginning to get some clear skies here.
As a matter of fact, this morning may be my first big opportunity.
Great.
I was out looking at the moon tonight.
It's, you know, last quarter moon.
Right.
And it's three degrees here.
And, you know, you're on South Dakota right now, so I wasn't out too long.
Do you have a pencil?
Yes, of course.
Okay, write this down.
Get yourself a Meade 531 electric motor drive.
I can do it without that.
Oh, you can't?
Yeah.
I had a chance to get a motor drive and turned it down.
I don't mind adjusting it.
I kind of like that, actually.
Okay, okay.
I don't mind.
Have you talked to Richard lately?
Uh, no.
Okay.
Not in the last couple weeks.
Well, he's been real busy with his, uh, you know, trying to get his, you know, newsletter in order here.
Richard will come to me when he has information he wants to get on the air.
Right, right.
Well, it's been nice talking to you, Art.
Take care, Steve, and thank you.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello there.
Turn your radio off, please.
You're the same guy who called earlier with a bad phone line, aren't you?
Yeah, we got a bad wire.
Alright, that's better.
Go ahead.
Yeah, you were talking about toxic waste being released into the atmosphere.
I, myself, being homeless in the Pacific Northwest, witnessed tanker trucks back down to the ocean releasing fluid into the water.
I know.
Yeah, let's say that I were of unscrupulous business sense and you were a corporation.
I'll get rid of your toxic waste for this amount of price.
I'll go further than that with you.
Listen on the air.
In a lot of areas of the country, what we have always known as the Mafia, organized crime, has moved from the traditional areas that organized crime was in to the waste and toxic waste disposal business a lot of you listening know that I'm right and what do you suppose people in organized crime would do with toxic waste?
You think they would dispose of it in a proper manner?
Hmm?
Right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Hello.
Hi, this is Sam from Hawaii again.
Yes.
I talked to you yesterday.
Yes, Sam.
Yeah, and I wanted to discuss some possibilities, since you're very open-minded.
Go ahead.
I was talking to you about this book I read about um... extraterrestrial king akunathan
about egypt and um...
i was wondering the possibility about the connection with hell bob and egypt
hell bop sir B O P P
B O P P P P
B.O.P.P.
I'm just learning about this stuff.
I was wondering how they all connect.
As far as I know, they don't.
No?
Well, if they do, tell me how.
Well, I was reading this book by Daniel Blair Stewart.
I think you might find it interesting.
It's a non-fiction book and you know how you read a book and it seems more real than reading something that is fiction?
Yes.
Well, this book really tickled something inside of me and something that you were discussing about Egypt and what they will find in the tomb once they uncover it.
Well, in his book, he explains some things and possibilities of what they might find.
Like what?
Like, they will probably find the king still there in meditation.
Well, if you listen very carefully, Richard Hoagland, on the last time he was on, Suggested they have already found the statue of a black man holding an unk.
That was, how long ago was that?
About three weeks?
Has it been three weeks, I would say?
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, this is BJ in West Covina, California.
Good evening.
Good evening.
I was listening earlier tonight and I was going to mention that I had read something about the drummer of Iron Butterfly disappearing.
I don't remember exactly what it was.
Actually, the bass player.
Uh-huh.
Yes.
Wasn't it a little bit before that that a local broadcaster in your area, Billy Goodman, who was a UFO reporter, also disappeared?
I was wondering if you knew anything about that.
No, he didn't disappear.
He's in New England.
Oh, he didn't?
He's in New England.
Oh, is he?
Yes.
Oh, okay.
He's been there now for years.
Oh, well, great.
Whatever I had read then was obviously misinformation.
Right.
Your interviewee tonight, he mentioned something about potassium iodide.
Yes, as something you would take if you were exposed to radiation, yes.
Oh, as a barrier to, say, iodine entering the glandular system.
I don't know the medical...
Well, thank you, Art.
Have a good night.
You too, and we will explore the disappearance tomorrow night.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi, Art.
This is Doc from Denton, Texas.
Yes, sir.
I wanted to call about the sighting that was seen here in the DFW area.
Yes.
It was mentioned all over the radio that early morning.
There was a lot of UFO sightings, green lights in the sky.
I know, I'm hearing a lot about it.
Yeah, it was chaos.
What is going on down there?
I don't know, it's pretty wack.
I'll tell you something that I said I wouldn't tell anybody.
I know somebody whose family member used to be in the military, the CIA specifically, the Aurora Project.
There are two... Sir, would you turn your radio off, please?
Oh, yes, sir.
Why do I have to turn it off?
I'm sorry.
There are two Auroras that are based in Dallas.
Navy Dallas.
And they're in underwater hangars.
And they take off during certain hours of the week.
Late at night on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
They do?
Yes.
You mean they actually use underwater hangars?
There's a runway that runs into a lake.
It stretches, it goes like a hangar, not a hangar, but an aircraft carrier.
It's a runway that goes along the lake, and at the end of it is the deepest part of the lake.
How do you know all this?
Like I said, I met somebody who had a relative that was in the CIA, was part of a cleanup crew, And is now out of the CIA because of all the BS.
And, you know, is willing to spread it out.
Also, when they do the testing, the thing is, is the whole area blacks out.
Me and some friends went to go watch it.
But it was too foggy.
Someone else has seen it.
They clear out the area around the lake.
The lake has been supposedly contaminated as of three years ago when they were brought.
To the base.
And now no one is allowed to fish in it, ski in it, go near it.
There's a bike route around it and that's it.
At a certain time, at 3.20 every morning, the lights around the lake, which is a park area, shut off.
And that's to allow the Aurora to rise from the water and fly?
Yes, and they have four black unmarked helicopters that go out and hover into the middle of the lake, which escort it over the city.
And then that's when it leaves the city area.
In the city of Dallas?
Yes.
The Aurora was hovering over the Pink Floyd Laser Light Show the second night in Dallas at the Dallas Cowboy Stadium.
It was during a major storm.
Because they didn't think anybody would look up, but it was hovering right over it.
Why would they want to take a chance at hovering in such a public location?
Because they expected anybody that was going to look up at a Pink Floyd concert was going to believe them.
You got a very good point there.
And I have one question for you.
Yes.
The man on the time machines.
Yes.
I sent away for a catalog.
Yes.
Have you gotten yours yet?
I haven't.
I'm dying to see this.
I want to know more about it.
Yes, I've got it here.
Okay.
And are they, they're not that expensive?
Does it look practical?
Look, I don't have the slightest idea.
I just had them on the air, and the catalog is real.
I've got one here.
I can't tell you about the machine.
I don't have the slightest idea.
How do I know?
Oh, I thought maybe it had pictures in it or something.
Oh, it does.
It's got diagrams and stuff.
Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
And have you ordered one?
Are you planning on to?
No.
No?
Not me.
No interdimensional travel in your future?
Oh, well, on the other hand, if I get word that a bunch of my listeners Well, if I get one, I'll be more than happy to be one of those judges for you.
Good morning, Art.
Art, I'm a truck driver.
be one of those days for a proper thank you he should nobody would ever believe anybody who looks up
from the pink floyd concert
uh... that was the best part of that call first-time caller line you're on
the airline the morning
art i'm a truck driver okay every time i come home by sister system i have
something to tell me and a couple weeks ago they were looking to time magazine
and newsweek and there was uh... something about a scientist said that
the year two there's going to be some kind of solar flare.
That was going to basically shut down everything electrical in the planet.
Well, now I don't know about that, but there is predicted to be solar activity around the year 2000 that will be threatening to long electric lines, satellites, that sort of thing, yes.
I was just wondering if something like that were to occur, be it an electromagnetic pulse or something of that nature, what would that do to a nuclear reactor?
I don't have that answer.
I don't know.
That was just a question.
I wish I had the answer for you.
I don't know.
I doubt that there would be a problem.
The problem is obvious for satellites.
They don't have the protection that we do in the atmosphere.
Even with that protection, long electric lines are indeed subject to surges from sun activity, from flare activity.
Uh, it is very, very interesting.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning to you.
Where are you?
Joplin, Missouri.
All right.
Joplin, Missouri.
Cool.
All right, look, the program, I'm sorry to say, is over.
It's over.
You get the honor.
Say it.
Say it.
Okay.
From Artsville.
Real quickly.
Good night, America.
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