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Nov. 15, 1996 - Art Bell

03:03:21

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Exorcism and Remote Viewing - Malachi Martin & Ed Dames

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	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good morning, good evening, as the case may be across all these time zones, covering an area from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands in the west, all the way across flyover country, to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, soon Puerto Rico, by the way, south into South America, north to the pole, and worldwide on the internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	I'm Mark Bell, and tonight, We're going to have Father Dr. Malachi Martin on, once again.
	What a pleasure.
	And I've got a bit of a surprise for you.
	You may recall that Dr. Martin was... We're going to figure out.
	Dr. Martin, Father Martin, Malachi, we'll see what he prefers.
	You may recall that in the last program Malachi was asked about Remote viewing.
	And his response was that it was nitroglycerin for the soul.
	After that program, I had a call from Ed Dames, who said, you know, I'd like to have a word or two with Father Martin about that.
	And so just as sort of a forethought, I guess, I spoke with Ed Dames earlier in the evening, and Father Martin has agreed to speak with Ed Dames.
	So at midnight tonight, or in about an hour, we're going to do exactly that.
	And that should be nitroglycerin for the radio.
	It certainly will be interesting.
	Will Pope John Paul II be forced to resign?
	Opposing forces battle for power over pivotal issues.
	Will there be a Mr. and Mrs. Pope?
	Will women be ordained Catholic priests?
	Are traditional Christians on the way back to the catacombs?
	Will homosexual marriages be sanctioned?
	The long-running covert warfare against Pope John Paul II, led by powerful members of his own hierarchy, including cardinals and bishops in Rome, in the U.S.
	and around the world, has broken into the open over the past five months.
	It's going to end within the next twelve.
	The prize is control of one of the world's most powerful positions.
	So predicts former Vatican insider and best-selling author, Dr. Malachi Martin, in his latest national bestseller, Windswept House.
	It's a double-day book.
	Already recognized as, quote, one of the most powerful books of the decade, end quote.
	As in his earlier bestsellers, Vatican and The Final Conclave, Fr.
	Martin again draws aside the thick veil of secrecy that surrounds the world's oldest political power and vast financial empire known as the Vatican.
	This time he unveils a deadly global war.
	A winner-take-all campaign aimed at the target of target's control of the power cockpit of the world.
	A war for control of the papacy itself.
	As a nerve center of the only up and running self-sustaining worldwide governing structure.
	And this evening I think what I'm going to do is let Dr. Martin speak for himself, but before he does, doctor, welcome to the program.
	How would you prefer to be addressed?
	Malachi, Dr. Martin, father of Martin?
	I think under the circumstances.
	Seeing that I'm known to you and you're known to me and your listeners, I think I'd better be called Malachi Martin.
	Everybody knows I'm a Roman Catholic priest, a practicing one, and that I have several doctors.
	And let's not emphasize either aspect.
	Just call me by my name, Malachi Martin.
	Malachi, welcome to the show.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	It's such a pleasure and an honor.
	And it is an honor to have you as well.
	Oh, let me tell you, that's the last program we did.
	I don't want to say all hell broke loose.
	That would be in context all right, but I know what you mean.
	It may give the wrong impression.
	It may.
	Might we have you, for the audience, describe your own background?
	Yes, my own background is this, that I was born 76 years ago in a remote corner of Kerry, Ireland, on the Atlantic, in a stone house.
	And I was educated in Dublin, and then I entered the Jesuit order.
	I became a Jesuit in 1939, on the eve of the war.
	And I was a Jesuit until 1964.
	And in the meantime, I did special studies.
	I was trained as an expert in Semitic languages, Oriental art and archaeology, and in anthropology and theology, and getting doctorates out of all that sort of thing.
	And I ended up as an expert first of all on Middle East questions and gradually I was co-opted into helping a Pope called John XXIII, the Roly-Poly Pope, Angelo Roncalli as he was called, and then his successor Paul VI.
	Who died in 1978 to be succeeded by John Paul II, with an interim pope of 34 days called John Paul I. But in the year 1963-64 I went to Paul VI, whom I knew very well, and asked him for permission to leave the Jesuits, to keep my vow of celibacy, but to forsake my vow of poverty so I could earn my own living.
	And also forsake my vow of obedience that I wouldn't have to obey people whose policies I did not like and whose theology I suspected of not being orthodox enough for my mind anyway, whatever.
	Because one must finally rely on one's own judgment.
	Because you'll be judged only on your own judgment, not on what anybody else says.
	And I came to New York in that year, 1965, and I've been here ever since.
	For my sins.
	That's my habit.
	I became an American citizen the ritual time five years later.
	Well, I hope it has been well for you.
	Are you comfortable with the decisions that you have made in your life?
	This isn't your work.
	I can't call you Malachi.
	Somebody with this many doctorates, I'm going to have to call you Doctor.
	Really?
	I should call you Doctor.
	No, no, no.
	No doctorates.
	Anyway, Doctor, are you pleased with the decisions that you have made in your life?
	Would you change any?
	No, no.
	Life has been good to me.
	God has been good to me.
	No, no.
	I would not.
	I would leave it as it is.
	I might change a little thing here.
	You know, when you look at the old machine, you'd change a nut and put a little oil into this crank and polish up that little flywheel.
	But the overall machinery has served its purpose, I think, in my human judgment.
	God be my judge.
	All right.
	Well, I have a lot of new listeners in Chicago.
	Sadly, in Chicago, Cardinal Joseph Bernadine has passed away.
	Yes.
	And I was wondering if you knew the Cardinal, if you ever met him, and if you had anything to say to those folks in Chicago who surely are going to miss him.
	Well, I'll tell you, all death is sort of a symbol of human defeat.
	You know, a life ends.
	And this life ended rather abruptly.
	We did know that the Cardinal was ill for quite a while, and I think they said pancreatic cancer was the ultimate identified cause.
	But it was a quick end, because we did not expect it to be so sudden.
	And as in many cases like that, it's overnight almost that he disappears into the cold of eternity.
	as the French says, le froid éternel, into the cold eternal,
	though eternity itself needn't be so cold as all that, if it's lit up by the love of God or the fires of hell,
	whichever really one ends up with.
	So it's always a defeat.
	It's always a sense of loss.
	Cardinal Bernardin was a very distinguished cleric.
	He came from South Carolina and he ended up in the most populous and important Roman Catholic community of Chicago in his final apotheosis, in his final development.
	He is missed because of the central position he occupies.
	That position should be summed up, frankly and honestly, as being the man in charge of a huge machine.
	Many thought that he might have been the first American Pope.
	Yes, he himself indeed would like to have been Pope.
	And in the last big public statement of his, Which amazed a lot of people, which we'll describe briefly in a moment.
	He sounded a papal note.
	That was a press conference and declaration he held a couple of weeks ago only, in which he proposed that Catholics should seek a new ground of unity, as he called it.
	And this is astounding, Art, because for Catholics, traditionally, since the time of the Emperor Constantine, the ground for unity has always been the papacy itself, the leader.
	And this time Cardinal Bernin was stepping out, and his fellow Cardinals in the United States, especially Cardinal Law of Boston, and O'Connor of New York, and the man in Philadelphia, The Cardinal there.
	They disagreed with what he said because they recognized immediately the papal conclave character of that statement.
	What Bernardine was doing that day was stating what he thought the Church should become.
	It was a papal speech.
	And I think that by that time he knew that he was doomed to die soon.
	But still and all he made a pitch for it because he did belong and was the leader of a faction amongst the cardinals which is a very powerful faction and that faction would rather diminish the importance of the papacy completely and make it much more an affair of consensus amongst the great cardinals and bishops of the church.
	So that was his contribution to it and it stirred a lot of ire in Rome And it's stirred a lot of controversy here.
	Now, then, as regards his achievements as such, one cannot say that Catholicism flourished during his reign as Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago.
	Only one out of every six Catholics goes to mass in Chicago.
	How does that compare to the national number?
	That compares rather badly with the national number.
	It's not as bad as that.
	And then several churches were closed in his time.
	Catholicism as a mode of devotion to God and to Christ and to the angels and saints, which is the essence of Catholicism, did not flourish under Cardinal Bernadine.
	We can't fool ourselves that it did.
	But he was a great public leader in the sense that he took a lead and he managed very carefully and skillfully With almost an extraordinary touch, he managed that very powerful body of men, 280 of them, called the American Bishops, or the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, the NCCB, with its political arm, the NCCC.
	It's the political arm of the bishops of America.
	He managed that.
	And he also, during his time, he forced the hand of John Paul II in several points.
	And he forced them by using skillfully the Vatican's dependence on American money, American contributions from the bishops to keep the Vatican out of the red.
	So, even for the Vatican, money talks?
	I think right up to the doors of hell, money talks.
	I'd be awfully frank with you.
	In the last two days of his life, he wrote to the United States Supreme Court, urging it not to allow Dr. Assisted suicide.
	Yes, he did.
	He did.
	And in that he was joined by hundreds of organizations, and that sort of business, proposing the same thing.
	By the way, the Clinton administration itself has decided and declared that it itself discourages the idea of any action on the part of the Supreme Court of the United States favoring doctor-assisted suicide.
	How would you, Doctor, argue against somebody who would say, look, I'm in the last stages of a horrible disease, I'm wracked by pain, my life is no longer functional In any way that I can measure, or want to measure, and I wish not to suffer out these last few days, and wish to take my own life, or have somebody assist me in that process, whatever the case may be.
	In other words, the argument of, it's my life, whose life is it anyway?
	Yes.
	The difficulty in answering questions like that, which is easy, is to be answered finally, in all honesty.
	Is that this cannot be regarded, isolatedly, as a personal problem.
	Because, unless one is totally an atheist, and one does not believe in any sense that God is any right, or has a say in anything, or that God even exists.
	The difficulty is, also, that what it would open up, by way, and even the American government, in its comments to the Supreme Court, He's of that opinion, and Bernardine was too, and most of the organizations, hundreds of them, that have communicated with the Supreme Court say the same thing.
	It opens a Pandora's box.
	And finally, there's this fact about it, that you can nowadays, within the limits of medical practice and medical ethics, you can obtain palliatives for your pain, which will diminish the stress of it all.
	Yes.
	I've always understood, Art, I may be wrong, I've always understood it, that those palliatives, those drugs used to diminish pain, gradually reduce vitality.
	They don't exactly hasten death, but they don't promote life either.
	But they do, by diminishing pain, they bring you closer in a more comfortable way.
	And finally, you see, for a Christian artist that terribly It's an important thing that any drop, any moment of human suffering has an eternal value in the light of the sufferings of the man-god on his cross, on Calvary.
	And that, I know, is a hard doctrine, but because Christians believe they're here to prepare for heaven, not to establish a paradise on earth, and if the paradise ceased then they can wipe themselves out, Life on Earth is a preparation.
	It's a hard doctrine.
	I know it's a hard doctrine.
	So that pain is part of what we are here to experience.
	That's right.
	If I have pain, if I have a toothache, if I have a breech birth with a child, if I lose a child, if I have arthritis, if I get a disease, it can be and should be used to merge with the sufferings, the meritorious sufferings of Jesus Christ.
	That's the basic Christian doctrine.
	For those who are not Christian, I know it's not much consolation, but it still operates in their case.
	Well, I'm afraid it makes sense.
	Doctors, stand by.
	We're at the bottom of the hour and we'll be right back.
	This is going to be an interesting evening.
	This is a really good question.
	We talked about possessions and we talked about exorcism on the last program.
	Yes.
	Are transsexuals possessed?
	No, not of themselves.
	Not because of their transsexuality or the transsexual operations.
	They are not.
	In no way can you say that that signifies ipso facto possession at all.
	That's an illusion.
	With regards to transsexuality, homosexuality, what advice do you give if somebody comes to you and says, I'm a homosexual.
	I'm struggling with myself.
	I don't like what I am and what I'm doing, but I'm driven and I can't stop.
	How do you advise?
	What do you say?
	If I have the occasion and the time and the convenience, it's all a matter of convenience.
	If they're calling from, say, Anchorage, Alaska, it's one thing.
	64th and Madison Avenue in New York, it's something else, of course, near where I live
	at, but depending on those ordinary human factors which sometimes determine our faith,
	depending on those, there is a spiritual treatment, not therapy, it's the wrong word to use,
	the spiritual treatment which can resolve peacefully and successfully the struggle one
	has with one's sexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality, or transsexuality for that
	matter.
	But that's a very delicate spiritual operation that must be done with authority and skill.
	But it can be done.
	It's not an irreparable and unchangeable situation.
	No, it's possible.
	But the one thing that the person involved must get in their mind is, it's not a therapy.
	It's not the work of a therapist as such.
	It doesn't rely on psychological or psychophysical factors, although it treats those factors because they're involved in all sexuality.
	Oh, isn't that interesting.
	So it's not psychotherapy and it's not an exorcism?
	No, no, it's not.
	It's a spiritual treatment.
	I'd only be plunging into a description of it, which could take us the whole of our five or six hours to get us there.
	It really could, if we have that amount of time.
	I don't think you require that, or the questioner requires that.
	But no, there's more than hope.
	There are concrete steps to be taken.
	But as I say, it's a treatment.
	It takes time and money, and it takes convenience of location.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, of course I do.
	Of course I do.
	So it's not an impossible situation at all.
	But then the nature of the treatment is of a spiritual understanding?
	That's right.
	It's a spiritual understanding, but it's also this.
	There is no doubt in my mind at all as a priest, and now I've been priesting since 1954, steadily.
	Before that I was in training.
	There's no doubt about it.
	There is aid, help.
	There is aid, succor.
	In the shape of what is called, in Christian theology, the grace of God.
	The special supernatural help which does repair any damage that our faculties have suffered through living.
	And our faculties do suffer, unfortunately.
	This is the way we live and what is done to us, you know?
	If I'm reared by, say, a father who is a drug addict and a mother who is a lush, I'm going to be damaged.
	That's correct, yes.
	Anything like that can be repaired, but the chief factor doing that is a special help from God called grace.
	It's supernatural, it's not a dimension, it's not something you put in your pocket, it's not something you measure, but boy is it powerful!
	On to another question.
	On the last program, you said during the next three, three and a half years or so, keep your eye Yes.
	Yes.
	that something and and doctor i must tell you uh... with the program i did last night
	uh... with so many other programs uh... with the remote viewers all these
	different people uh... american natives
	they're all saying roughly the same thing something's coming
	something big as you can come in about that comes about the car
	i mean comes about mentality you know i think i could break into a question
	That betrays my Irish blood.
	We are actually always interrupting each other.
	Why not?
	To improve what the person is saying.
	If I could say this much to you, no matter what, along the entire spectrum of belief, from a fuddy-duddy Roman Catholic priest like me, over to something radically different, radically different in belief, There's a common sensation today that we are passing through a window, as people have the expression, from one era, from one condition, human condition, to another condition.
	And part of our confusion and our squabbling and our impatience today and our fears, above all our fears are, because fear is a very dominant factor today in public and private life and personal life, That is due to the fact that we all sense, without being able to pin it down authoritatively, that we are indeed passing through a window of opportunity.
	A kind of quickening is going on.
	Yes, there is a thing going on, and it cannot be laughed at.
	I remember Freud, in 1938, publishing a statement in Vienna.
	I followed it because my daddy was a doctor.
	I was a young man of 17, but I was engrossed in studies like this.
	And he's saying that, why is it, he said it at one of these psychoanalytic meetings that was held in Vienna, just pre-war Vienna, and by that time Vienna was under the grip of Hitler with the Anschluss and the Nazis, why is it he said that the majority of you, trusting his fellow psychiatrists, are reporting that a vast majority of your patients are tortured by dreams of barbed wire and bloodied bodies?
	Why?
	Why now?
	And of course, they knew nothing about the horrible things that were going to transpire for the next five or six years.
	But it does go back to something which was true about Carl Jung.
	I don't like Carl Jung at all.
	I don't like his personal life, and I don't like his theories.
	But he did talk about this sort of universal consciousness.
	Yes.
	And of course, he made it into something else.
	Like a lot of other people having found something valuable in nature, he proceeded to imagine
	what it was, and that was not scientific, and he went beyond the data.
	But there is a consciousness amongst us all, in spite of our differences due to everything
	from sex to color to shape to race to education, that there is something big taking place.
	The phrase is, we're passing through a window of opportunity into what we do not know.
	And that is confusing, because the old world, the one we knew, has passed away.
	There's no doubt about it.
	We're constructing something, or something is being constructed of us, of us, of us.
	We're the living stones in this new temple.
	I felt as though we're past the point of no return.
	That doesn't mean the end of everything.
	It just means we're going to go on to whatever is next.
	That's right.
	We can't go back.
	There's no going back.
	And we know that.
	And that's confusing, first of all, because, you know, there are two things that are very frightening for a human being.
	The first is to be in a land he doesn't or she doesn't know.
	Totally alien.
	Yes.
	But one of the most disturbing things is to be is to be persuaded That there's an alien being you don't know now in your presence or in your area.
	I would do it.
	It's very disturbing because that arouses up the good old territorial imperishable as Robert Ardrey used to call it.
	But it also arouses up the fear of the alien.
	We don't like what is alien.
	We must know it!
	Could what is coming, Doctor, be spiritual?
	In other words, Something that will affect all of us?
	Actually, you know, and you've got a source of information that most people haven't got with your marvelous syndication and your own intelligence.
	There's no doubt about it.
	We all know that the big change we sense and are afraid of, in that sense, because we don't know what it is, is in our spirit.
	In our human spirit, as such.
	We know there are forces molding it, shaping it, As the consensus of a race of people, and not merely five billion different consciousnesses, the change is in our spirit.
	There's a change being operated, and sometimes we like the result, and sometimes we don't like it.
	But we know it's in spirit, and by spirit we mean something other than my flesh, the skin on my hand, and the color of my face.
	And the length of my hair, and the timbre of my voice, and the look in my eye, and the way I walk, what I do.
	There's something else.
	We are something else.
	We are soul.
	We are spirit.
	And that is being molded.
	Willingly.
	Well, I certainly believe that.
	I wonder if I can ask you a sensitive question.
	Sure.
	Being a man of God, have you ever First of all, I'm a man of God in the sense that I'm supposed to be devoted to God's glory.
	I'm a sinner like everybody else, but I do belong to God by vocation, by form of profession.
	I have never yet doubted the divinity of Jesus.
	I've never doubted the existence of heaven and of hell and of purgatory.
	I've never doubted the value of his cross to solve life's problems.
	I've never doubted the creation of the world by God.
	No, I've never doubted that.
	What I have had, by way of difficulties, were the governing of my own passions and my own fears, above all my fears.
	I remember my grandfather saying to me, if I could be personal, he said once when I expressed some fears, I was about 18 at that time, and about to leave home forever.
	and not go back, he said, measure your love of God by the quantum,
	use that word, the quantum of fear in your heart.
	And it's been a lesson all my life, and I've been dealing with fears, anybody has.
	Should people fear God?
	Respect, in the sense of fear.
	There are two kinds of fear, Art, let's distinguish them very carefully.
	There's the general fear, which has a little note of panic in it.
	He asked me to do a video on it.
	And that is something you have to eradicate.
	Because that produces confusion, and errors in judgment, and mistakes, and therefore failure.
	And it's painful, in a very deep sense.
	It doesn't make you more cautious, it makes you stupid.
	Because you make mistakes if you're afraid.
	Self-control in that sense is necessary.
	There is a fear, though, of God, which is respect for Him.
	He did make us from nothing according to our beliefs.
	But again, in all this, I'm a Christian and a Catholic, so you forgive it when it's biased.
	Or not biased, but it's one-sided.
	There's no doubt about that.
	It's the Christian point of view.
	But it is that.
	We do depend on him.
	And if it comes to the point of my rebellion against him for the sake of my own passions, for the sake of my own ambitions, for the sake of my own hates and desires, he can Yes.
	He will go out to me a punishment beyond belief, beyond imagining, and that is for all eternity.
	That is a very healthy balance.
	Sometimes in life, life does extend to you something which looks terribly enticing.
	It introduces a balance.
	Not always listen to it when you are 20 and 30, but when you reach 40, 50, 60, 70 and
	face the 80s, you suddenly realize that there is a Lord of life and He finally is the Lord
	of everything.
	So that's sort of a fear, yes, but not craven fear, Michael.
	Not craven fear.
	All right.
	Father, the Pope recently said, surprisingly, shockingly, for a lot of Catholics, and not for some, That evolution is more than just a theory.
	Seeming to affirm the process of evolution, and that was quite a shock for many, were you surprised?
	Not at best.
	In my knowledge of the Holy Father, knowing what He is, we've got to be very clear about this.
	This is a personal opinion of the Pope.
	It's not in any way connected with beliefs.
	He is, for various political as well as ideological reasons, I want to call it what I think it is, the metaphysical myth of evolution, regarding it as a serious hypothesis.
	The reason I regard it as a metaphysical myth is this, that we know that we have now reached the end of the fossil record.
	We know that.
	There's no other fossil record to search any longer.
	And in that fossil record, Since the time of Charles Darwin in 1850, we have not found one, but not one sign of evolution from the point of view of a missing link, linking phylum to phylum, primate to primate.
	There's no such thing.
	It doesn't exist.
	And now we know it doesn't exist.
	So evolution is a nice myth, because it explains things, but when you look for, as a scientist, for the proof of it, concrete proof, there ain't no proof, sir.
	That's the difficulty.
	So the Pope has made of his own an opinion like that, but he has a political reason as well as an ideological reason for making that statement.
	What is the political reason?
	The political reason is that the more powerful cardinals in his Roman court, his Roman And the more powerful academicians in his church, whom he has fomented, by the way, they are all evolutionists.
	And therefore he wants to play it very safe with them.
	He does belong to what is called, a bit too long to explain like this, unless you want it done, which we can do, he belongs himself to the French school of thought in this matter.
	He's very sympathetic.
	By the way, Paul has always been sympathetic.
	With France and France with Poland on account of the help that France gave to Poland while it was in the grip of Russia or Prussia or Germany.
	That's past history.
	I mean, Chopin is the example of that.
	There was great connection between Paris and Warsaw always.
	And the French School of Thought, which is a very, very brilliant school of thought in the 17th, 18th, 19th and early 20th century, has a huge influence on Polish intellectuals.
	And the Pope is a creature of that, intellectually.
	He's not a Thomist, if you know what that is.
	He's not a follower of Thomas Aquinas.
	He's a French intellectual.
	We all wish to think of the Pope as a spiritual leader in that context, but in fact, the Pope is probably as much of a political leader as spiritual, is he not?
	Absolutely.
	This poor man, and I say that with great sympathy for him, he has to deal with the geopolitics of faith.
	That is the fact that the nations of the earth are the children of God, and supposedly, theoretically, according to Catholicism, they're under the mandate of Christ's salvation.
	At the same time, he has to deal with the geopolitics of reason, the fate of nations.
	And he did that, for instance, in Poland, where he was the instrument with Ronnie Reagan and his government, mainly, He was the instrument of making the first breach in the wall of the Soviet Union, which led finally to its dismemberment, and the rest is history.
	So he has that double function.
	And his agony, actually, has been a real agony.
	His agony has been the balancing of those two forms of geopolitics.
	How does anybody, including the Pope, indulge the politics he must without sinning?
	I'm not trying to butter you up or flatter you.
	It's such a profound question because, look, you know in your ordinary life passions come in.
	You can't be reasonable for a reason all the time.
	Your passions come in.
	Your prejudices, your form of biases, the people that were nice to you and the people you loved, and then the people who were un-nice to you and that you didn't like or perhaps hated sometimes, and then you've got national and ethnic and cultural prejudices, all that comes in, and any deviation from reason, any deviation from justice, divine and human, is wrong, is a sin in itself, can be forgiven.
	God will forgive all these things and cleanse them all by the blood of Jesus.
	It's the fact that we do err.
	And the Pope, sitting where he does, is more easily guilty of malfeasance in high office than I ever will be, because I was never Pope and never will be.
	So your answer is, he can't.
	He can't avoid it.
	He can't avoid it.
	All he can do is, he can rely on the blood of Christ.
	And the forgiveness of Jesus.
	Forgiveness.
	Yes, there is always that.
	But the very process of politics, the very process itself, Necessitates compromise.
	That's right, it does.
	Exactly.
	That's where the difficulty arises.
	That's exactly where the difficulty arises.
	Sometimes, both the present Pope and his big mentor, Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski, who's now dead, who's called the Fox of Europe, and who drew circles around the Soviets in his day, by the way, and they never caught him.
	They tried to do anything to him, including kill him.
	But he and the present Pope, as cardinals in Poland long before he became Pope, Had to make compromises with the Marxists, otherwise they couldn't have survived.
	That must have been a very sad, personal time for the Pope.
	It was dreadful, yes, it was.
	And it was dangerous, and it seared his soul, and it left an indelible mark.
	Mark, I have always wondered, all my life, which are deeper, the wounds of reality that scar my body and my mind, Or the deeper wounds to my very being, from my own errors and sins.
	I imagine we wonder about these things all the time we are on this earth.
	I imagine if we are humble at all, if we are realistic, and stop having too many illusions.
	I suppose the great thing is not to be... Doctor, I've got to... I've got to show you there.
	We'll be right back, and when we come back, Major Daves.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Now...
	To the matter at hand, my guest, Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Doctor, welcome back.
	Thank you very much, Art.
	Thank you for having me.
	It's a pleasure.
	It is indeed.
	it is it is indeed and uh... you did say did you not uh...
	doctor that remote viewing you thought was nitro glycerin for the soul
	Yes, understood in that sense.
	Yes, I did regard it as nitroglycerin for the soul, in the sense that it has the potential for a powerful explosion in the human soul.
	All right, with that in mind, here is a man who did remote viewing for the U.S.
	military and now does it in civilian life for a company, his company, called SciTech.
	And he has been a guest on this program many times.
	Here is Major Ed Dames.
	Major, welcome to the program.
	Hello Art, and Father Martin, it's an honor and a pleasure to be here.
	Major, you have no idea, I've looked forward to this very much.
	Art made me his complete slave by promising that I would be able to talk.
	It really did.
	The two of us, I hope we have the same key to the ball around our foot.
	Yes, we have.
	Tell me this, I feel like follow my leader in this matter because I'm purely and simply I'd like to share some of my own experiences in the area of remote viewing and spirituality.
	Let me give you just a little background about myself as a military officer and later on if you have any questions about my religious background.
	I was both the operations and the training officer for these techniques that are referred
	to as remote viewing.
	My company refers to them as technical remote viewing, which are a very precise way of extracting
	details about a target, a person, place, thing, or event.
	I essentially civilianized the company.
	I took the best members of the military team and now employ them as consultants in my company.
	I teach civilians how to do this.
	It's now my vocation.
	We work as a team against very significant types of targets, for instance, the FBI's
	Unabomber or the TWA Flight 800 disaster, to attempt to pinpoint the locations of people
	and things in that regard.
	When these techniques were first used within the Pentagon, They were construed by many senior officers to be associated with the occult, as you might guess, and probably have heard about.
	My mentor lives in New York City, Ingo Swann, and you may or may not have ever met him.
	No, not met him, but I've heard about him.
	He himself wondered when he discovered the breakthrough techniques that we use.
	Prior to the techniques that we use, only natural psychics, very gifted individuals, could be utilized for military intelligence collection missions.
	Prior to his breakthrough, he himself, when he developed these techniques, wondered aloud to me whether or not these were associated with something that was dark or the shadow.
	He himself was concerned about this.
	He was concerned?
	He was concerned, yes.
	And so that was the beginning of my concerns also.
	And we were a human use team.
	There was a board that watched, ostensibly watched us to see if there would be any deleterious effects on our psyches during the use and the application of these techniques.
	It was an experimental team.
	Well, the border was not that effective.
	In fact, what happened was we found that in cases where individuals were already mentally unbalanced, we did run into some serious problems.
	We still experience that today.
	You still experience that today?
	Yes, we do.
	If I attempt to teach someone How to open one's mind up is a loose term.
	They are not balanced individually.
	When we are mentally stable, we do run into serious problems.
	If that is partially what you are alluding to as nitroglycerin for the soul, then you are correct in that regard.
	However, for individuals that are balanced, They can perceive many, many things, including turning this light on to the very deepest, darkest, scariest aspect of all, their own minds.
	If they have the courage to look, they can achieve a great leap in spirituality, if they choose.
	But, to get back to the subject at hand, I have noticed on the part of my seniors, including a major general, a two-star general, He's a very high intelligence executive.
	That remote viewing, these techniques became replacements for religion.
	These were people who were in their 50s and 60s who essentially were men without gods.
	It was a spiritual vacuum in their lives and when these techniques became available to
	them either as utilizers or as practitioners, they completely lost their balance and perspective.
	In what sense did they lose their balance and perspective?
	Religious?
	Actually, in the sense of the whole body, both mental and emotional.
	Oh really?
	It became almost an end all.
	It became more than a passion in their lives.
	The answers to all questions, not only a means to an end but an end itself.
	It was almost as if they felt empowered by this absolute knowledge.
	And that's what you refer to when you said a decrease in balance.
	They lost their stability.
	They could not function in a balanced way.
	It was noticed by all around them.
	These were people who were in positions of authority and great responsibility.
	Was the imbalance to the point that they had to be relieved of their authority?
	That is correct.
	Including my commanding general.
	That's very important because, my God, without an authority, stable authority, no achievement is possible.
	Very interesting.
	I find all that utterly fascinating.
	Major, let me not interrupt you.
	You go on, please.
	Well, I think there's some other things that you would like to know.
	Yes.
	I would like to tell you some of the things that this has done for me personally.
	Yes.
	Could you share that with us?
	I would be glad to.
	I no longer am... I no longer require... I feel I do not require faith.
	I'm no longer what one would call a man of faith.
	Yes.
	And that is because I don't feel that I need faith anymore.
	I have absolute trust now.
	I've reached the point by looking at certain nooks and crannies spiritually, with the techniques that I employ and have learned, that I'm so trusting.
	When you can see things around you, perceive things around you that are divine and demonic, and put them in their places, their respective places.
	Yes.
	Then there are no dark areas.
	The darkest areas are within our own minds.
	Therefore, there's no need of faith, you conclude.
	I'm sorry?
	Therefore, you conclude there's no need for faith.
	And personally, only personally, Father.
	Of course, I know what you're saying is.
	And I'm quite sure that you would not only take exception to that, but you could give me some good cases.
	No, no, no.
	Take exception, I don't dare.
	I have no sort of horror or sudden say, oh my God.
	I have no reaction like that.
	I'm just fascinated by it all for the moment.
	Well, in some other experiences, individuals who feel presences around them or ostensibly within them, what these techniques can do, and they are difficult to work.
	It takes approximately 45 minutes of 10 on paper with a disciplined remote viewer to
	gain any information whatsoever.
	It takes many more hours to gain a good pattern of what we are dealing with, but the patterns
	are accurate.
	We are able to take that information and determine if, for instance, a presence is angelic, demonic
	or somewhere in between, something like a diva or an elemental, all of the various sort
	of incendiaries of both religious realities or created beings and material or semi-material
	beings and their intents.
	That is a very, very useful tool for a modern age where there is so much obfuscation.
	It can make life complex, interesting, but in certain regards quite simple.
	And it can also solve a lot of problems with which people go to psychiatrists and psychologists.
	It can indeed.
	In fact, I listened to one of your programs on our show, and I thought, if I would be with Father Martin during one of his exorcisms, I could assist greatly by using these methods and techniques, especially employed as a team, because we do medical diagnostics To determine whether or not you would endorse these techniques, to determine what we are dealing with, whether it's a psychological trauma, the source of that trauma, was it multiple trauma, was it trauma over a long period of time, or are we dealing with an attachment or attachments, and what is the nature of that?
	How affixed are they, and at what point do they depart?
	These are things that you already know.
	You can recognize those, I'm sure.
	Of course.
	That would be a very interesting collaboration, Ed.
	It really would.
	It's a marvelous collaboration.
	It really would, in itself, objectively, just without considering anything else, because there are other implications also.
	But anyway, let me not interrupt you.
	Go on, please.
	No, I don't have your experience in these matters, but I do have experience in discerning,
	in shining a light on these dark agencies, and they hate the light.
	They are very...
	They do, they do.
	What I have found is, in fact many masquerade as angelic beings or...
	Angels of light, as Paul would call them.
	What did Paul call them?
	Paul said that Lucifer can transform himself into an angel of light in order to deceive
	the believer.
	I see.
	That's the phrase, an angel of light.
	In fact, in the early days when I researched many ways that we could use O-code, formerly
	here before the appellation was the O-code techniques as intelligence collection tools,
	when I looked directly into the eyes of someone who was channeling something, you could see
	certain things, and I could see that I was being lied to.
	I could see that I was being told everything I wanted to be told.
	In subsequent years, after learning these techniques, I was able to really gain a complete appreciation for what these attachments were, the nature of them, and that became quite fascinating.
	They are desperate to maintain that attachment, as you already know.
	Absolutely, absolutely.
	I found that out as attempting to research them, research these phenomena, various O coat phenomena, as intelligence collection tools, of all things.
	No, no, no.
	The connection is an obvious one to make.
	I can see it immediately.
	It's useful in the field of intelligence.
	We did not know.
	We had to look at that.
	But that exposure, that exposure to the knowledge, to the light of truth and awareness, it essentially drives away many of these shadowy forces.
	And when people who have been, I'll say, plagued all their life by fear that there's something following me or something is around me, sometimes what we have found, what I have found in my work, Is that thing, that so-called shadowy agent, that has been tailing a person throughout his or her life, may sometimes be angelic in nature.
	And not demonic!
	And someone has been afraid... What you say can be angelic, and then you add in a sentence I didn't catch.
	And not demonic.
	Not demonic, that's right.
	In some cases, the person has been afraid of something that has been a loving... Benign.
	Yes!
	Well, more than benign.
	Sometimes very loving and very... Positively working for them.
	Yes.
	And they were very difficult.
	But with these techniques you use correctly and they are very difficult to use correctly.
	I'm sure they are.
	High degrees of training.
	And it's a delicate operation anyway.
	It's delicate but it's repeatable and the procedures are standardized.
	They just need to use their professional tools.
	But what I wanted also to say is that the connection with God does not go away during the process of remote viewing.
	If your soul is already lost or saved regardless of using these techniques, the connection is still there and you take it with you.
	When you go into this, it used to be an altered state.
	That was quite a different modality.
	But here, one simply turns their attention to an idea.
	I'll use that roughly.
	So one's attention is half focused upon writing down information on a piece of paper, and half focused on something that is in, for lack of a better word, one's collective
	unconscious.
	There are technical terms.
	Yes, let's stipulate.
	We can use that phrase.
	It has to be defined further, ultimately.
	But Father, it has been the downfall of a number of people.
	I've seen it myself.
	Oh, and I know it has.
	And yet it's given me more than I could possibly... it's given me answers to many different things,
	and it's allowed me, most of all, when I wanted to give back the gift, when I wanted to serve,
	I prayed for about six months to make sure.
	I knew I couldn't return the gift that I had been given, the answers to all questions.
	I was too naive to know that.
	By the time I tried to return a gift, I had received dump trucks of gifts back.
	So I changed my strategy and just asked to serve.
	What this tool allowed me to do was to precisely determine Well, it took about six months, actually, to make sure I was correct.
	How?
	How to serve?
	How to serve my God?
	That's what this tool gave me, the precise details of what to do, how to serve, rather than just a general sense.
	That's one of the reasons I'm so grateful to And indeed, let me add in, we all should be grateful for such a thing, because in theological terms, Ed, what you're talking about is a charism.
	It really is.
	It's a gift.
	It's an ability given you, and I still don't want to interrupt you because you have a lot more to say on this matter.
	I just want to add this one thing, or say this one thing, and it's this that This is a very precise, well-intentioned, nobly-intentioned effort on your part, or performance.
	You're not doing it for self-glorification, and you're not doing it for self-advantage.
	You primarily use the word serve, S-E-R-V-E, which is very angelic, by the way.
	Father, I'm going to have to interrupt.
	I'm going to let you continue with this when we get back in a moment.
	My guests are Dr. Malachi Martin and SciTech's Ed Dames.
	Maybe we'll talk a bit about the nature of the soul itself.
	I'm Art Bell and you're listening to the American CBC Radio Network.
	Stay right where you are.
	From a spiritual perspective, you would think, indeed, the odd couple, but maybe not.
	We're going to find out.
	Back now to Dr. Malachi Martin and Major Ed Dames.
	Dr. Martin, I wanted to let you finish what you had started saying, and then perhaps explain to us, if you would, why you think remote viewing is nitroglycerin for the soul.
	Hello, is Ed there?
	I'm here, Father Mike.
	Alright.
	I feel really funny I should call you Major, is it?
	Please call me Ed.
	But anyway, let's get over that for the moment.
	The original statement I made when I spoke with Art the last time about this being natural discipline for the soul, and I think you might even understand it as I do understand it, it is if it's not done With the proper motivation, and not done, as it were, scientifically, that is, with proper methods and checks and balances, it can disrupt the soul, it can blow it up, it can cause an explosion in it.
	We, from my side, from the point of view of exorcists, and that's when I say we, I really mean that, those engaged in this work, found that those who did remote viewing or channeling without any of those safeguards that you just described, that they underwent very severe disturbances and disruptions of their personality, their normal persona, and they also had manifestations that could only be explained in the light of
	Luciferian intervention in human things.
	The theory or the belief behind it is that there is the supernatural order and there is the natural order.
	The natural order is what you see, the flesh and bones and blood and earth and metal around us and wood and material things.
	And then there's the supernatural order, which is the existence of God and all that belongs to God.
	And in between there's what we call the middle plateau, and it's on that plateau that these powers can be exercised, the powers of the soul, that apparently can be sharpened and developed.
	My language is pre-scientific and pre-medical and pre-psychiatric, and you'll appreciate that, because I don't even purport to be a psychiatrist or a therapist of any kind.
	I'm just a necrosist and a priest.
	When I said it was a nitroglycerin of the soul, I meant when somebody enters or tries to enter the middle plateau and deal with such powers and faculties and develop them without the proper intention or the proper controls and checks and balances.
	The phenomena that take place in people who do that are those that attract us as a group of exorcists and that demand or require From our point of view, it requires the attention that we bestow on it with formal eclosism as such.
	Now, one more thing I want to add in just as a pabulum, as material for talk, for discussion, is this.
	The difficulty is that the supernatural, as Christians conceive it, and still conceive it, is totally unimaginable.
	There is no human concept There are no human words that can describe it, number one.
	And number two, it is imperceptible to a man without a special grace from God.
	He can't even perceive it.
	So much so that if a man has not got faith, he just can't imagine it.
	If he loses faith, he does not know he's lost it, because if he knew he lost it, he'd have it back.
	The mere fact of knowing you've lost it is a perception itself belonging to faith.
	It's complicated as a concept, but that's the reality we have found.
	Now, the only practical application outside of religious peace and a calm for people who come for egotism, the only practical example was, strangely enough, for some army officers, purely as private citizens, who came for help Because they had delved into the Middle Plateau and came away very disturbed.
	Then there are the normal people who use Ouija boards or who use remote channeling or remote viewing and they entered an area where they were subject to terrible onslaughts from an angel of light, in that technical sense of the angel of light, And the only succor we could give them was precisely through these ceremonies, which are not therapies at all, because an exorcism is not a therapy, it's a confrontation.
	That may not throw much light, but it will explain to you why I call it the natural discipline of the soul.
	And everything else is absolutely enlightening for me that you've said, And I presume into the hopper of all those ideas, as the expression goes, would go the entire question of the Green Bomb Programming and the summation, that's somebody like, what's his name, Corey Hammond, drew up for the American Psychiatric Association, for NPD, the whole idea of the program.
	Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
	I do.
	Just one comment.
	I am familiar somewhat operationally with the idea of the middle plateau.
	Channeling.
	The more that we have found one gives up one's own identity.
	Let me go back to an operational perspective again.
	I want to emphasize that this was This evolved, the techniques I used as a military intelligence gathering tool.
	And that's important.
	It is.
	When we looked at the phenomenon of channeling, I already mentioned some of the characteristics, behavioral characteristics that I observed.
	It became very evident to me, operationally, that channelers never took responsibility for their work.
	Or their lack of success or their lack of detail.
	It was always, well, it was somebody else, Manny, Moe, or Jack, that did that, and it's not my fault that the information is incorrect.
	That was an interesting thing.
	Another, the most interesting aspect was, of course, that the channeler gives up one's own identity, turns their identity over to something unknown, something that has convinced them that it's benign in most cases.
	That is very, very, very important.
	That's where the nitroglycerin aspect comes in.
	And that is the essence of channeling.
	But technical remote viewing is essentially a mind tool where we are fully conscious and fully awake, even in the early days of the programs where the natural psychics in the army were employed for intelligence collection purposes.
	That was an altered state, and there were some dangers in an altered state.
	When we would send, I use that term loosely, an officer to a remote location, there were instances where in navigating that middle plateau, where these people were subject to great angst, because they ran into other entities, so to speak, on the way.
	And this caused a tremendous amount of grief.
	We actually had two individuals have heart attacks.
	Not surprising.
	It was very non-plussing.
	I would say so.
	We settled on to these mind techniques rather than mind-body techniques.
	Indeed, when used correctly, they became almost a library card to essentially just an endless amount of information.
	One can do with that information what one chooses to do, act in any way one chooses to do upon the information, but nevertheless it's there to be downloaded.
	Sometimes, as in the case of at least one of my former students, and in the case of another Army officer who has recently authored a book, these people started to lean towards association with the very entities that they discovered in the Middle Plateau.
	They began to engage in what one could term a quasi-channeling behavior.
	Well, quasi-channeling is as good as channeling.
	Once something has its hook in you, you may be in the shadows, but it's got you.
	That's right.
	That is why one begins to see a behavioral change.
	These individuals become frenetic, lose their balance, make statements that appear incoherent.
	As you well know, that kind of behavioral change is a red flag.
	Something has happened.
	Yes, that's right.
	Something has happened.
	Have you identified what that happening was?
	What did happen?
	Yes, we studied it.
	you in the simulation.
	Yes, we studied it.
	In the terms of basic psychology 101, the hook is in the individual's ego.
	Ego has completely been hooked.
	The hook is in the ego and the psyche is being pulled along, led by the ego.
	It's entailed, as we say.
	That's a very good description of the process.
	We've had to study it long and hard and use models in order to discern when we're on dangerous The further we cross over into giving up our own decision-making ability, because that's all we really have is our mind, and our mind is where we begin the basis for the formation of whether or not our soul survives.
	That's right.
	If we forsake that, we've forsaken the very essence of us.
	I agree, and when these individuals start to give up their decision-making ability and turn their minds over, I'm not familiar that much with possession.
	I have only seen it once or twice in my career.
	do with ego.
	We lose them.
	Well, that's the beginning of what is called, from my point of view, from my side, possession.
	I'm not familiar that much with possession.
	I have only seen it once or twice in my career.
	I do want to reiterate one thing, though.
	The majority of people who come to me to learn technical remote viewing are commonplace individuals
	They're very interested and enthusiastic.
	We can spot individuals who are, nowadays we have to because we've had so many disasters, not so many, but when disasters occurred in the past, whether on the military team, Well, in the case of one or two civilians, former students, they were real disasters.
	So that taught you a lesson.
	It taught us a lesson.
	We really scrutinize the behaviors of individuals that come our way.
	You have a profile of the people you wouldn't touch.
	It's not as much a profile as an art.
	Not as much a science as a feeling.
	And it's art.
	What would be a red flag to you for somebody that you wouldn't want to deal with?
	Frenetic behavior is one.
	That is one red flag.
	Another thing that we see, if an individual just cannot get away from, for instance, conspiracy theories.
	Conspiracy, conspiracy, conspiracy.
	Sometimes that is an indication that someone is perhaps a paranoid schizophrenic, and that's the worst case.
	We would absolutely never want to touch a paranoid schizophrenic.
	Father, with what you've heard about remote viewing, those types of personalities aside, would there be a relatively safe way to do what Ed does?
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	You see, he, I mean, as his ordinary business, he laid out a system of checks and balances
	from the point of view of intention and method and technique and an intimate knowledge of
	the various entities that do people this region in which he enters and works.
	And that is very different from the loosey-goosey, if I can use that expression, I wish to, in terms of experience, point out something else too.
	comes into it.
	May I say one other thing, Father?
	Yes, of course.
	I wish to, in terms of experience, point out something else, too.
	In terms of what one might call the shadow, the tenants and their ilk, I happen to be
	very afraid of them.
	Thank God you are.
	But I'm not afraid that they will harm me because of my connection with God and with angels.
	That's the only reason that I can deal in the areas that I deal with.
	Can I stop you there and ask you a question which is pertinent?
	Of course.
	You said that you no longer need faith.
	Now, you see where I'm going.
	Not essentially, but what I said was I feel that I have absolute trust now.
	That's right.
	But faith, therefore, on your lips, meant something else other than what I mean by faith.
	Because, obviously, if you do depend on angelic protection, and divine protection, you have what in classical terms would be called religious faith.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, I do.
	I have no words to describe this, but you've made several acts of what would be called theological faith throughout your entire discussion of this.
	And you have a certain almost childlike dependence on their protection to preserve you because that's why you venture into this field unafraid in that sense.
	You have certain fears or you take care of certain things out of respect for your enemy.
	or for the things that could deceive you.
	What I meant by that was that I can perceive what these things are.
	In the past when I was a young man, before I was exposed and imbued and learned to be
	a professional in the techniques that I used, I did not know what these were.
	Then I needed what I called in my classical terms, faith.
	I had to rely upon a higher power, my God, to protect me from the darkness.
	But now I can see into the darkness.
	I can shine this light in there and see, aha!
	Over here is this, over there is that.
	Yes, yes, yes.
	That's essentially what I mean.
	That was enlightenment.
	You still have that dependence on protection, though.
	Oh, absolutely.
	Well, you see, that's the... Now, I only want to introduce a thing which I've talked about before, which I can never put exactly.
	It is the supernatural.
	The supernatural is, by essence, in the Christian tradition, and in the Jewish tradition, too.
	But since I'm a Christian, I'd better speak authoritatively only about that.
	This idea of the supernatural is disturbing in one sense, but consoling in another sense, because the Christian idea is that the supernatural itself is totally alien to human nature, but has come to human nature to elevate it, and therefore to protect it.
	in this field, especially in this field, but in the normal field of human behavior too.
	But it's alien to it in the sense that I myself cannot, of myself, just with my human powers, attain the wisdom I need in order to avoid collision and damage and harm.
	That's the idea of the supernatural in Christianity.
	Doctor, may I ask you this?
	Sure.
	Could Ed's understanding or enlightenment protect him against possession?
	It could, given merely the words he has used and the phrases he has used and what he has said.
	I find no trace of the things that betray The innate weakness of fantasy or pride or self-reliance, I find a godliness in it, and that is one of the keys to it.
	He should be protected against it, because the supernatural grace is there.
	And all I'm doing is saying that that has been with him apparently all along because he started his own career as a young man and then getting into the dark corners and getting the light to see the lurking dangers that were there to be able to detect an angel of light which is really the shadow itself pretending to try to deceive him.
	So yes, the answer is yes.
	He can do that with impunity.
	But then that would mean that if I were to be fully and completely thorough in that answer, I'd have to sit down with Ed and say to him, all right, now tell me how you pray and how you think and how you behave and how you live and your morality.
	And I have no intention of doing that to Ed because he wouldn't do it to me in public anyway.
	All right.
	Ed, do you want to hang on a little bit longer?
	I'm digging in to Father Martin's time, and I can hang in for another 30 minutes.
	All right, why don't we do another 30 minutes.
	Father, is that all right with you?
	That's lovely.
	All right, good.
	We will be back, and we will do exactly that next.
	I'm Mark Bell.
	Something that you would not participate in or as described, is it something that you feel would have value and something you might even try yourself?
	Whatever about trying myself, because I'm not a technician or I haven't been trained in this, I don't regard it as essentially dangerous.
	And in fact, I think at this stage, what we should do is sketch out where the discussion has arrived.
	Major James has outlined a very careful and tried and tested.
	I was going to use the word technique, but he will forgive me if it's not exactly that.
	And obviously, that's not the exact word.
	But it's a method of exploring and remote viewing, especially with view to intelligence, military and, I suppose, civilian.
	And also as regards human behavior.
	Now, and he does, he has pointed out that they have learned by bitter lessons that certain types of people, certain characters, are simply not fitted to be brought along this way because of the dire results that take place.
	And he didn't expand on that, and there's no need to.
	We can imagine what he means by it.
	The position of the exorcist, where we come in, is somebody who has gone off the rails, as it were.
	Somebody who has not merely become frenetic, but does seem to be possessed, as the classical term has it, and in his terms it is that the shadow has become completely all-powerful over a particular individual, And the simple technique we use is a technique of confrontation between the exorcist and the exorcee, the possessed person, the presumably possessed person, and that's the initial problem to find out is the person really possessed or is it something else?
	And the confrontation between the exorcist and the exorcee and an exercise of authority over the shadow and Forcing the shadow by the authority of God, of Christ, to depart.
	That's roughly the area we have covered.
	And, by the way, I must ask a simple question of spelling.
	I don't know how to spell Cytex.
	Is it C-I-T-E-X?
	Father Martin, it's a transliteration of the Greek letter Psi.
	P-S-I.
	Psi.
	Oh, Cytex.
	And T-E-X, is it?
	T-E-C-H.
	T-E-C-H.
	All right.
	And Ed, is it D-A-N-E-S is the way you spell your name?
	That's correct.
	I didn't know that.
	That's all right.
	I want to somehow, because I would like to correspond or to be in contact with you, if I may, and I suppose I'll find some way in California.
	I'll make that connection and Art will be our middleman.
	I was going to ask you that perhaps we could corroborate in the future or is there a case, an exorcist case in the past that you found intractable or irresolvable that perhaps my company could turn its attention to?
	There may well be and I think we should talk about that.
	Between the two of us, outside of the public radio.
	But in answer to Art Bell's question, no.
	I have no... I'm not even cheery about entrusting myself to the methods and the technology I've used, because it seems to me, Maitreya, that I'm speaking as a priest here, and as an exorcist, it seems to me that you are overshadowed by a godliness.
	Which I can only ascribe to my Savior.
	Now I'm using my Christian language and you forgive that.
	You don't need to forgive that.
	I'm also a simple Christian.
	Basically it's a great simplicity and there's a whole elaboration of that about the humanity of our Lord Jesus and what he has done and what he does.
	and the power that it gives and the authority it gives.
	But that's simply, those are the details of it all.
	So, to conclude that, my answer to your question, no.
	I would have really, really, illimitable trust in the methods that
	Major Ed James uses and the techniques.
	I, uh, I, uh, have no qualms, whatever.
	I really have not.
	I find that remarkable.
	You both apparently agree on the general nature of the middle ground.
	That middle plateau we both know.
	I think we've both been there, or are there, in that sense, in the work we do.
	Do you agree, Ed?
	I absolutely do.
	Many Christians, people who would call this program or send me faxes, would say, That what Ed is doing is of the devil.
	Art, may I interrupt you and say that the head of the Presidential Foreign Intelligence Board, when briefed on the existence of our program, stated, as he once wrote, that man should not know these things until he dies.
	It's a funny inversion of what happened in the Garden, according to Genesis.
	It really is.
	You know, you shall be of God.
	As if it was a temptation.
	But you see, Art, if I could break in there, I really do think that this is a charism that has been developed in Ed Dames and his associates, if he has them, who are like him.
	And it is the work of God, because it does enlighten us as to the shadowy personages that inhabit the middle plateau and that entrap people so that finally they end up on my doorstep in a pitiable condition.
	I remember being approached by some members of the armed forces, very vaguely in the 80s, and their complaint was, and Ed will understand this completely better than I do, myself even, look, we have trained officers in certain techniques and we find that they have now developed symptoms that you describe in your last book about possession.
	It's been my experience, Father Martin, that those individuals who have taken lives in combat, the more lives that a soldier has taken, there seems to be a storage area.
	It's a denial.
	And when one is by vocation or by order, partakes of things that are spiritual, all this comes out of the closet.
	And I have seen soldiers break into pieces and stay broken.
	Absolutely.
	Because they've taken our human life.
	Could I say this and be understood?
	Because I want to be understood by you.
	Looking at it from the inside, it's logical.
	I mean, it's almost a necessary consequence.
	Ed, I think we really can't do more than this.
	I'm surprised at the result that we got between the two of you and pleased by it.
	And I would imagine you are too.
	I'm very surprised and I'm very pleased and I've learned so much and I've been enriched by this.
	I really want to thank you, Ed Dames.
	This has been nothing but an honor for me, Father Martin.
	May God go with you and give you the grace.
	Ed, my friend, thank you.
	A pleasure to remind.
	Scitex, Ed Dames, and as I said, he has promised to uh... join us once again and is going to target himself uh... this hale bopp comet headed our way and we'll see what uh... it has to say about it all right uh... uh... dr martin uh... you have a new book it's called windswept house that's right what is the central tenant what we're trying to tell everybody in windswept house i was trying to tell them the condition of the present pope in relation to the papacy in other words
	The book says the following.
	For some time now, actually for about five to eight years, it's hard to pin it down, there's been a movement amongst the more powerful servants of the papacy, cardinals and bishops, in Europe and in America, to persuade the present Pope to resign and retire.
	Which he can do legally, by the way.
	The law of the Church says that a Pope may resign, And he needs to give no reason to anybody on the face of the earth why he resigns.
	Indeed.
	Now, there has been a pressure on him to resign and since he turned the age 75 and is now heading, he's in his 77th year and in very bad health, the pressures are enormous on him.
	So much so that the document they drew up to illustrate their wishes, and this document was in his hands towards the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, he has Yielded so far to this extent that he's drawn up another document which pertains to some legislation he would like to pass before he dies concerning the health of Popes.
	In other words, supposing a Pope becomes a vegetable.
	Supposing he is rendered totally incapable of movement, physical movement.
	Supposing he goes mad.
	Supposing he does dementia.
	Yes.
	So he has drawn up this.
	He has not signed it, because he would trap himself if he did, because he'd be giving rules that should apply to him.
	However, the pressure on him has been very big to resign, and their motives for doing so is this.
	They say, we have such problems nowadays, that only a more forward-looking, more liberal-minded Pope can really collaborate with the forces in human society, To stave off disasters.
	They're talking about two disasters.
	They're talking about what they call the population explosion.
	We are, what is it, 5.2 billion now.
	That's right.
	And we're heading, they say, for 7.5 in the year 2030 and so on and so forth.
	And that's the number one problem.
	And number two problem is education.
	The first problem with explosion, they say, can be curbed by abortion, contraception, sterilization.
	And utilization is already being used in third world countries, manufactured by Canadian and American companies.
	Might even add euthanasia.
	And euthanasia.
	Exactly.
	To deal with what some of the demographers who are heartless, the useless eaters.
	That's right, useless eaters.
	Yes, useless eaters.
	Little babies and old guys, like me.
	But I say that as a joke.
	Their last sentence, their last phrase.
	Of course, the present Pope is absolutely adamant.
	I mean, you mentioned abortion, contraception, sterilization, and he's airborne with the indignation.
	So they say, but we... All right, you can cavil about abortion, but anyway, contraception, can't we lighten up on that to some degree?
	Because even the officially blessed form of family limitation by Roman Catholics called natural family planning implies a certain contraceptive mentality.
	Certainly.
	So that's the difficulty.
	So they say we need somebody who is more receptive.
	Secondly then, within the church itself, we do need, I think today the modern mind does say, it would be better if a priest had the option of celibacy, or the option of marriage.
	And then thirdly, there is the phenomenon of our age.
	One of the big phenomena is the rise of women as such.
	Feminism in the good and the bad sense, because there's a good and a bad sense to everything.
	And the fact is, why shouldn't women be ordained priests?
	Why should it be all male?
	Does priesthood depend on testicles?
	Pardon my language, but that's briefly the argument that comes down.
	Is biology destiny in this matter?
	So they say that we need some, we need a forward-looking man who will be young enough and perceptive enough to start moving on these fronts.
	In that case, then, we can collaborate with the vast movement outside by very powerful and flourishing men and organizations for the control of food and the better nourishment.
	The pressure on him is great for that.
	the malnutrition and I forget the actual figures but it's frightening. He must have children
	that suffer from malnutrition. So the pressure on him is great for that. He has refused so
	far obviously because he hasn't resigned. I do feel that the pressure has been so great
	on him and his health now is so precarious that it is now 50-50.
	By the way, I'm not a betting man.
	As I said before, I lost a few dollars on the Yankees.
	My betting is not exactly blessed by God.
	I do feel that it is now 50-50 percent possible that within one calendar year we would have another Pope.
	He may resign or he may die because his health is precarious.
	Parkinson's disease, there's no doubt about that.
	And by the way, it is accompanied by episodic dementia in its early stages.
	But again, I'm not authoritative in this matter, but I'm told this.
	He has also an osteoporosis, and he breaks things easily if he falls or hits against things.
	And then he has been operated for cancer.
	Father, what you're talking about is sort of a papal version of a living will.
	That's right.
	That's really what it is, and you say he will not sign it himself.
	Well, he may finally sign it and then resign.
	He may.
	I see.
	The pressure on him is very big.
	Now, by the way, the pressure is big because it comes not merely from his own people, his own colleagues, as it were, bishops and cardinals.
	It comes from very powerful organizations who share the same opinion as those colleagues, or the colleagues share the same opinion.
	For instance, There's no doubt about it that the thinking of the World Wildlife Fund, in this matter, beginning with Prince Philip of Edinburgh and go on down along, or of the Ford Foundation, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Pew and Draper Funds, they all think the same thing.
	They're all very keen on controlling the population and they agree with those who would like to see a change of Pope.
	And everybody acknowledges the Pope's achievements and his work for peace and his compassion We all know that, but they say we need a younger man now.
	The book is about that, and about the pressures on John Paul.
	I would like to get your views on it, and to start with, let me ask you, I had no idea such a document existed.
	Would it not, in a way, for him to hold on, way past the point where this document would have taken effect, had it been signed, for him to hold on and then sign it at the very end, would that not be, in essence, Morally wrong, if not sinful?
	Well, it would be at least, put it like this, because I must have some reverence for Imagine, you understand that, it would be reprehensible.
	Reprehensible?
	Reprehensible.
	What grade of immorality, how far it's venial or mortal, is something else.
	And I find it very hard to decide that in the person of my Pope, and he is my Pope, and I am a priest of his church, and I'm a practicing one, I say Mass every morning, and all that, the usual priest stuff.
	I don't want to make a big thing out of it, but it's very sacred for me.
	It's my life.
	But yes, it would be reprehensible, because then he's putting his own personal position in preference to the good of the Universal Church, if the good of the Universal Church would be served by his resigning.
	And that's the crucial decision he has to make, and the book actually ends on that crucial note of doubt in his mind.
	Should he, or should he?
	So, the book is not an advocacy, wasn't an advocacy tool for you.
	You didn't advocate that he should sign this and resign.
	No, no, no.
	I leave a pendant.
	The book ends on a pendant.
	I've been blamed for that.
	I said, why didn't you decide the issue?
	I said, well, the issue has not been yet decided by the man who must decide it.
	All right, I want to ask you about those three areas.
	That is, population, the option of marriage for priests, and Perhaps the women's movement and their place in the church.
	We'll be right back.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin.
	All right, here we go.
	Back now to Dr. Malachi Martin in Manhattan, where it's getting very late.
	Welcome back to the show, doctor.
	It's a pleasure to be here.
	It's still early morning.
	Well, it is, yes.
	Early morning.
	This conversation is so stimulating that I find it difficult to imagine going to sleep, although I'm sure if you told me to go to sleep, I would do so immediately.
	You know, that lovely condition.
	All right, let's go on.
	Let us do that.
	Now, there have been many studies in which rats have been put together in a tight little area.
	Inevitably, they end up Killing each other, eating each other alive, behaving very badly indeed.
	Our world population, though the planet can hold many people, I'm not sure it can support many people, and we have many, many, many people.
	What is your position on birth control?
	Well, I'll tell you, Art.
	First of all, I think that the phrase, sustainable development, is susceptible of a decent explanation.
	I mean, I'm sure Hitler would also use sustainable development in a completely different sense, and Stalin would too.
	I think we people can use it in a good sense.
	As regards birth control, or the control of population, I'd rather put it in the general plane, I can in no way sanction the killing of life once it has started in the womb.
	I cannot, in any sense of the word.
	I just can't.
	I can't take that from the point of view of natural law and then from the point of view of the mandate of my savior as I regard him.
	No abortion at any stage?
	No abortion at any stage, no.
	It is not justified.
	Even the extreme cases that one hears of, rape and... Incest?
	Incest, no.
	There's no way I can sanction the killing of a human life.
	In any sense, that applies to capital punishment as well as everything else, even though I share the indignation of the general population when somebody is really a killer, you know what I mean?
	There's this instinct, let's kill him, let's get rid of him, but I can't even sanction that.
	Alright, what about those wonderful little birth control pills that if taken regularly, as prescribed, to 90% or better will prevent birth?
	Well, they will interfere with, you see, The Catholic doctrine is very rigid, and I think will remain so, in spite of the zig-zag splits.
	It says that once there's conception, once there's a zygote clinging to the endometrial wall of the womb, that's a human soul, even though it's utterly undeveloped.
	And you can't interfere with that once that's there.
	of the abortifacient.
	Most of the pills are abortifacient.
	They will evacuate that life once started.
	That's why, to a certain degree, many Catholics practice some form of blockage.
	The old pessary idea.
	The old condom idea.
	Or rhythm.
	Well, then rhythm is a different thing.
	A lot of Catholics today Including the authorities, say it's okay if you follow the rhythm of your body and certain moments when the woman is fertile, you avoid.
	All right, let's back away from that and move back to blockage, all right?
	How do you look at that?
	Well, blockage, you see, the difficulty is this.
	Here's the Catholic difficulty with that, and it's a real difficulty, and many Catholics have changed to this point, but it still is a difficulty.
	If I block the natural Yes.
	That means that I have a contraceptive mentality, because the Catholic ideal is to be within the limits of nature and the dictates of nature, to be open to what God sends.
	Now, for instance, God does send me the power of walking on a precipice and falling down 300 feet to my death on the rocks below, if I don't tempt God by doing that.
	Because I may lose my balance.
	But the point I'm making is that he does give us the power of not coming together with my wife, say, when she is in a fertile period.
	If she has regular menses, by the way, that's another problem altogether.
	And many people tried to apply the Catholic natural family planning and found out that she was irregular, and therefore they conceived.
	I know one family that conceives six children already.
	It is nevertheless, though, still a sort of a blockage, isn't it?
	Mentally, yes.
	And actually, I've always thought of the NFP mentality, natural family planning mentality, as a contraceptive mentality, because de facto, I am avoiding conception.
	There you are.
	So I mean, you know, between that and the actual contraceptive mentality, which says we shall use the condom, or we shall use, you know, the The intrauterine apparatus, or the pills, de facto the intention is the same.
	However, some moralists and some church authorities would allow you to use the natural family planning because it is within the movement of nature.
	It's within the prescriptions of nature.
	I don't hold that, but that's merely my personal interpretation.
	But I'm rather rigid on this matter.
	So, what is the answer?
	Don't laugh at me when I say it.
	Don't do it!
	It's hard.
	Just don't do it.
	Abstention.
	Abstention.
	All right, there are many, Father, who said that the reason that Catholicism has this view is because the Church wants more Catholics.
	Yes, that was an old shibboleth against the Church.
	But actually, I've never found a trace of that.
	I've passed through all the echelons of training, philosophy, theology, and papal service, and that never enters into it.
	It's never that.
	It's the horror of interfering with an act which is of itself a natural entity, and I've never seen any place, by the way, in any of the theoreticians or the theologians or in the books or in the lectures, I've passed through it all.
	I spent 18 years training before they allowed me to preach a sermon.
	I've never found a trace of that mentality officially.
	Now, it may be that somebody says, well, let's have as many babies as we can now.
	Well, we did talk about politics earlier.
	Yes, we did.
	Yes, I know.
	Ben Provato, as they say.
	A well-chosen remark.
	But it's never...
	No pope has ever said that, and therefore we will increase and multiply and have more Catholics than dominate the population of the world.
	I've never found that, but it's an old shibboleth, chiefly because Catholics used to have orphanages, and with young pregnant women who are unmarried, they would adopt the child.
	Yes.
	And there have been many abuses in that regard, by the way.
	There was a recent 60-minute program on that, which was dreadfully So, that's where I stand on the matter.
	I do not think that any invasion of that serves, finally, the glory of God.
	conceived illegitimately, as they used to say in those days.
	So that's where I stand on the matter.
	I do not think that any invasion of that serves finally the glory of God.
	Then if you were Pope, you would resist, as this Pope has, any real change in that area?
	I would, Ed.
	I would.
	I would, Art.
	I would, indeed.
	I would do something else, though more positive.
	I would set about a different sex-ed program than Catholic bishops have allowed in America and in Canada.
	In what sense?
	Well, you see, the sex-ed program, if you examine it nakedly, not to prong, by the way, examine it as it is, A program that stimulates sexual excitement and interest.
	Oh?
	Yeah, it's not educational.
	And then, if you turn to the Catholic couples today, most dioceses in America must go through what they call Cana Conferences.
	They're called Cana because Cana was the marriage feast at which Jesus functioned at the beginning of his preaching in the Gospels.
	Again, the conferences are supposed to enlighten the fiancées, the engaged couples, as to their obligations.
	But again, it has taken in this country, to a large extent, a sexual turn.
	And it doesn't educate.
	Because I think that the one faculty we have, the sexual power of the faculty, requires great education.
	Especially today when we've passed through the swinging 70s and the swinging 80s, and the 80s with 90s.
	We need education.
	So I would change all that.
	I'd make sure we had another sex ed attitude completely.
	And I would not ask children to experiment with bananas and carrots, which they do.
	So your attitude basically boils down to just don't do it.
	Just don't do it.
	The human being to know that you haven't got to do it all the time, and when you do it, it must be done within a reasoned existence.
	You must be able to afford the child, and you must be able to afford the education, and all the other human considerations that make a responsible citizen.
	That's asking a lot of a person, indeed.
	It is.
	An awful lot, and there are going to be accidents along the way, and violations.
	But we have remedies for those, too.
	All right.
	Very traditional, indeed.
	All right.
	Let us see if you are also traditional in the area of marriage for priests.
	Yes.
	Now, you've been a priest a very long time.
	Perhaps since 1954.
	Have you found the battle with the flesh to be a difficult one, or did you early on come to an understanding and are at rest with it?
	Art, I must be awfully frank on this point, because otherwise I wouldn't be happy with myself.
	Please do.
	The battle with the flesh stops when the last nail is put in your coffin, as far as I'm concerned.
	That's when it stops.
	I'm sure that's correct.
	I know it's that way.
	Now, difficulty or easement in this matter is, on the one hand, subjective, and on the other hand, objective.
	It's subjective in the sense that a lot goes into it.
	Your early background, your nature, your character, the examples you've had around you, your early habits, the way you're trained.
	For instance, let me tell you this much.
	In Ireland of my day, I became a Jesuit at the age of 18.
	I never dated anybody.
	I never went to a dance in my life.
	We had no such thing as co-education at all.
	We had separation of the sexes.
	We didn't look on it as separation of the sexes.
	It was the natural way we all behaved.
	It was the ambient in which we lived.
	We had parties at Christmas and Easter and birthdays in which we all were present, male and female, young boys and young girls.
	But there was a regimentation or a rule of life then which governed everything.
	The clothes you wore, the way you looked and the way you touched.
	And of course we were naughty at times, there's no doubt about that, and there was masturbation of course, and there was mutual petting, and our parents weren't looking and things like that, but nothing grave, and nothing sustained, and certainly nothing permanent at all.
	It was a different thing completely.
	Now, has it been easy?
	Ed, I'm 76, you know, and I must tell you that the early part of my life, There were struggles, there's no doubt about that.
	Thank God they ended as they did.
	About the age of 65 or 70, things cleared up in the sense that it became easier to be reflective about it, not because I lost interest in the male and female aspects of life, but because other things came in that fascinated me more readily.
	You nevertheless remember the days of struggle.
	Oh Lord, do I?
	Listen, I remember.
	I have my days of struggle.
	Never ceases it.
	With respect then to marriage for priests as an option.
	Well, I'll tell you.
	If life goes on as it's going at the present moment, I do not see... Well, let me explain that.
	If the pressures continue to mount on this matter, And they are mounting every year, especially in America.
	Yes.
	And Canada.
	If they continue to mount, I cannot see the authorities escaping the necessity of allowing the option of marriage.
	Why do I say that?
	Because if I took a poll tomorrow of the 280 bishops in the United States of America, and of the, I don't know how many bishops there are in Canada, I suppose there are about 20 or 30 or 40, A majority would say, make it optional.
	Today.
	And they have said so.
	They have said so.
	Rome doesn't take a lot of polls, does it?
	Well, actually, Rome does, but pretends it doesn't.
	I see.
	Yes, they take polls.
	They've got a man in Washington, the Pope's man, Caccio Villani is his name, he's an Archbishop, and he is continually taking polls on all these questions.
	Really?
	Rome's pollster?
	Oh yes, Rome's culture.
	And here, Rome has its culture in every country.
	And they take polls on the point, and they don't always listen to the polls, as I said, they don't even pretend they take them, but they do.
	And they have this index of leading Catholic indicators, which indicate the condition of Catholicism, and it's published there, they're finally beginning to publish that.
	Now, this is in regards to the actual mounting pressures.
	There are big pressures mounting, and there are underlying faults in the pressure.
	For instance, It is said by many priests and many bishops, too stupidly by the way, they say, well if we did this we'd have less deviancy, less pedophilia, which of course is garbage psychologically.
	Any psychologist or any psychiatrist will tell you that there's more deviancy amongst married people than amongst celibates.
	So there's no bearing on it whatever.
	Deviancy is deviancy and there's more of it in married people apparently than amongst the so-called bachelors or celibate concord of men and women.
	So that despite the press's reporting on it, because it's a very sensational subject, the actual amount of it you're saying is much less than in the average, or in the regular population.
	Much, much, much less.
	What is mounting is this idea that it's the human right which the Church has interfered with for a long time and shouldn't any longer.
	But it is the pressures, the socio-cultural and political pressures that are changing this.
	Now, will the Church yield on it?
	I think the pressures are mounting in such a way that in certain regions, say Latin America, that the Church may waive the rule it has of celibacy.
	It may well.
	What do I think?
	I think it's going to be a net loss.
	That was going to be my next question.
	A net loss for all of those in the church.
	Yes, because I know it's anecdotal to tell you about it, but I was a U.S.
	chaplain for the U.S.
	Air Force and with paratroopers in Turkey for a period of my life.
	And we used to go on long trips to the radar domes that the U.S.A.
	maintained around the Black Sea, listening to the Soviet broadcast.
	And to the time when There was a great competition about space and missile development.
	I remember there were long trips and the men, the officers who drove me always called it an 18 beer trip or a 30 beer trip with 30 cans of beer because Turkey was terribly hot in the summer.
	But I remember talking to them and the chief chaplain with us in Incirlik, we were stationed in Incirlik at the base there in southern Turkey, southeastern Turkey.
	The chief chaplain was Woody.
	He was a Protestant chaplain, a very decent fellow, married with children, and a very decent man, and very good to me.
	I was a minor chaplain.
	I was a temporary chaplain, by the way.
	But I remember the men used to say to me, you know, they'd say, Father, look, having made a confession to me, made the confessions in the car, traveling around, if you were like Woody, if you had a wife and went home at night to your wife and children, We wouldn't tell you all these things.
	We wouldn't trust you in the same way.
	It's not that we distrust Woody.
	We think he's a great guy.
	And some of his own people, the Protestants in the force here, have a great love for him.
	But they haven't got the same approach, the same intimacy with him as we have with you.
	Because we know that you are ours.
	You belong to us in a special way.
	And I was only a parish priest temporarily and in various Part of my life, because I was generally in scholarly work, or diplomatic work, or something like that, or teaching.
	But the times I was, the degree of closeness between a pastor and his people, behaving himself, hearing their confessions, serving them, baptizing them, and striving them when they're sinful, or say they're sinful, and helping them to die in God, the closeness is something unbelievable, Art, it really is.
	And it's all, I think, influenced by the fact that you are totally at their disposal.
	So then there would be a degree of loss in that area?
	There would be a degree of loss in that area.
	Now, by the way, look, there are certain sections of the Catholic Church, like the Maronite Rite, which is the Catholics of Lebanon, who have all been married.
	And then there are Greek Orthodox Churches, and the Russian Orthodox Churches, their priests can be married.
	Their bishops, no.
	But they allow their priests to marry.
	And they have a very magnificent priestly tradition.
	You know?
	So this is a human law.
	It just has developed in the West to be the universal norm.
	Doctor, hold it right there.
	We'll be right back to you.
	Top of the hour.
	You're listening to CBC.
	Now, back to Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Dr. Martin, maybe this will set it off properly.
	I just got a fax.
	It says, There is no question that there have been horrible injustices toward women throughout history, but it seems today as if the feminists are so determined to achieve equality with men that they do not care whether they concurrently bring down the very institutions they're trying to achieve equality in.
	How do you feel about that?
	I'll tell you, Osh, the first thing that strikes me is this.
	And I've often asked women, very powerful women I know who are leaders in, say there's a group called Women's Leadership Forum, and I know all the leaders very well personally.
	I've eaten with them and walked with them and talked with them and discussed things and wobbled with them in a friendly, loving fashion.
	I've always asked them, when they happen to use the expression, who wants to be equal to a man?
	And if I If I want to be equal to you, it means that I regard you as superior.
	Uh-huh.
	That's right, that's right.
	The mentality I started with, first of all.
	Then, of course, there comes the fact that we must acknowledge the dire effects of male chauvinism.
	Take medicine alone, Art.
	I mean, medicine has been created on the male body and for male ailments.
	And this brought home to me very, very sharply when I had open heart surgery a couple of years ago.
	And I said to the doctor, a sub-Romanian, a marvelous Indian doctor in Lenox Hill Hospital in New York, is it the same operation for women?
	And he started laughing.
	He said, no, no, this was invented for the male body.
	We have to adapt it for the female body.
	And this applies to the whole gamut of health.
	It is really men's ailments that were envisaged by men.
	No, it really is true.
	If you look at the budgets allocated for study of problems, disproportionately they're allocated to men.
	You're right there.
	And then there's a big push to get a study of breast cancer.
	But it's mainly women pushing it.
	It wasn't done by the academic community.
	So there has been injustice there.
	And then, there's no doubt about it, in finance and in industry, There's nothing wrong with all that.
	forces and in general in public life.
	Women were given second place in that sense.
	They were considered to be the weaker vessel and just the proper places at home, having
	babies and cooking and taking care of the house and family.
	Now there is nothing wrong with all that.
	The only thing was that the time came when women were needed in the workforce and when
	women felt they should go into the workforce.
	There is a different force blowing today and it has also entered into the church and there
	is the difficulty.
	Now, there are some women, just a few, very highly placed in the Vatican, as regards decision-making.
	And between you and me and the Holy Spirit, Art, if I want something from John Paul II, and at times I've wanted something for other people, obviously, I always go to one of those women.
	Because they have a direct manner, they go straight to the horse's mouth, and they usually get what we ask for.
	Because they simply have this power of communication.
	The men are all tied up with their egos.
	And they're not.
	So it's a good sign.
	Now, the difficulty is when you come to the question of ordination.
	That's a different question completely.
	I must say, it's a trap into which I've seen so many The so-called eminent bishops and theologians fall, that they finally reduce them to saying, just because you have testicles, you can become a priest.
	You know, it comes down to that.
	Because you ask them, why, there was one man, to give you an example of the difficulty, and it does illustrate for our listeners, there was one bishop who was very adamant, he was an Anglican bishop, but a very celibate man, and a very good bishop, by the way, he's in Canada.
	Well, what is the higher reason?
	In other words, why may a woman not be a priest?
	unless you're male you can't be a priest.
	That determines your ability to become a priest.
	Of course, which is a dreadful conclusion, because then it reduces the whole question
	of priesthood to physical things.
	There's nothing wrong with the physical things, except one would have thought it was a higher
	reason that you became a priest.
	Well what is the higher reason?
	In other words, why may a woman not be a priest?
	Well I'll tell you why a woman, a female, God has arranged, as the church says, that
	women do not become priests.
	It's for the very same reason, and I'm not really dodging the question, I'm giving you the reason, but it's a very profound reason, and let's hope the time allows us to at least delve into it.
	Sure.
	It's this.
	For instance, Christianity says, God the Son became man.
	Christianity also says, by implication, God the Father could not have become man, and God the Holy Ghost could not have become man.
	And the reason is this.
	It's the nature of God, the nature of the Trinity.
	The Son can be generated, can be born.
	The Father was never born, and the Holy Ghost was never born.
	Their natures, their personalities, are such that being born, in any sense, doesn't fit in with their personalities.
	Whereas it does with the son.
	He's the son.
	He's generated by his father and his mother, usually.
	Now, the basic reason is this, that within creation, as a Catholic sees it traditionally, only a man pictures, reflects, reproduces the function that Jesus Chiefly filled, namely as High Priest.
	Woman does something else.
	She actually is the source of eternity.
	She's the source of future generations.
	She's the source of love and marital bonding.
	But she doesn't reproduce at all.
	Her function is not to reproduce.
	The function is that Christ had as High Priest.
	It's as simple as that, and it's as complicated as that.
	It's a long consideration, and there's a deep theological reason buried there, and it's very hard to give it in a few words, but that's the essence of it, that only a male reproduces, and not because he's a male, but because he's a son, he's generated, and the son Jesus himself was generated by the Father in eternity, and he was generated in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit.
	He reproduces that condition, that origin, that personality of the Son, and therefore he can reproduce, therefore, the functions of that Son as High Priest.
	That's the essence of the theology of priesthood, and of course it doesn't apply to women.
	Women have a greater In the eyes of Christian theology, they have a more noble function.
	They conceive.
	You're a very traditional priest, aren't you?
	Yes, Art, I am.
	I'm dyed in the wool in that.
	It has informed my entire existence, and corrected the cannibalism of my nature, and I'm a natural bum, and I'm also a natural barbarian, I think.
	So you must have a great sympathy, then, for the Pope Yes, I am.
	But, you see, I do know that there's this inconsistency in my Pope, which I regret very much, but he has it, and I have to bow in front of consistencies.
	Most of our characters are inconsistent, and his inconsistency is as follows.
	That on the questions of, say, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, genetic experiments, Anything like that, he is absolutely adamant.
	Absolutely adamant.
	On everything else, he's liberal.
	He really is liberal.
	By the way, if you go to the Holy Father and say to him, Holy Father, may I commit an abortion, he gets airborne.
	He barks fly.
	Sure.
	And same thing with contraception.
	Same thing with homosexuality.
	Same thing with divorce and remarriage.
	No sir, nothing like that.
	But, if you say to him, Holy Father, I would like To see women priests.
	He becomes pathetic.
	He will say to you, I wish I had the power.
	There's no sudden.
	He doesn't come from airborne.
	He's not protesting, but he wished he had.
	And by the way, in the year 1995, there was a meeting of 15,000 altar servers.
	You know those people that serve the masses in the churches?
	In St.
	Peter's Square.
	15,000 of them.
	And the Pope came out to address them.
	And he came out on the famous balcony of St.
	Peter's.
	Now there were, by the way, there were 4,000 girlfriend was there
	amongst the fifty thousand and he knew that
	and he said to the mini speech to the to the athletic speech he said
	i hope that some of you all the majority of you will one day celebrate
	math at the altar so he knew what he was talking about in many areas and he
	is altogether too liberal for you
	to liberal i think i i think i regard liberalism the way he is liberal
	as facial errors I regard.
	But listen, I'm a little man.
	No wonder they didn't make me Pope.
	I couldn't manage it.
	I mean, I can't judge him.
	Just from my poor little mind, it is very dangerous what he is attempting to do outside of sexual morality.
	It is very dangerous.
	He has endangered the The integrity of his organization, not of the Catholic faith, but the organization itself is in danger due to his liberalism as regards sharing things with other religions.
	So then, given an opportunity, you would urge him to resign?
	That's a judgment I'd be afraid to make because, as I say, I'm just a poor little fellow.
	On the air, doctor, or off the air?
	Both.
	I really have no... I would, by the way.
	I don't think... You see, I'm looking at his replacement, and the replacements are awful in my book.
	The possible replacements... You see, there is now a race.
	Anybody coming from Rome nowadays who tells you the truth and who speaks to you Roman language of what they're talking about, they're all talking about one thing and one thing only, the conflate.
	And you know what that means.
	Yes.
	It means they're lining up for the next pope.
	There's no doubt about it.
	This is the evening of John Paul II's papacy.
	We all know it.
	And therefore the papabile, as they call them, the popable ones, have come to the fore.
	And none of them are to my liking.
	May I run a theory of life by you, Doctor?
	Please do.
	Please do.
	I'd love to hear it.
	And I bet it applies to your situation as well as mine.
	And it is that I watched the change.
	I'm only 51.
	You're 76.
	That's great.
	Even at 51, I look at the changes that are going on in society, and I have sort of come to the conclusion that as we get older, and society continues to change and change and change, by the time we're ready to go, or near ready to go, we sort of look up and say, These people are out of their minds.
	Get me out of here.
	I'm ready to go.
	That is a sentiment that starts as a tiny voice about my age.
	I'm sure when I get to the end of the 70s, I'll be saying, Lord, look, please give me a ticket.
	You know, have mercy on us all.
	I suppose it's inevitable because so many of your friends go.
	So many things change that you feel that you're no longer really at home.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, I certainly do.
	Little pieces of you have departed.
	My parents are gone.
	My closest friends are gone.
	My brothers are gone.
	Three of them.
	And it's not that I go around moaning and groaning.
	I don't.
	You know me too well.
	I understand.
	But I do feel that a lot of me has departed with them and is waiting for me.
	Yes.
	You know what I mean?
	We'll all get together again.
	But I agree with you fully about the way life changes.
	And no doubt up there, the church is the way you recall it.
	Yes.
	Of course.
	I would like to begin to make some calls here if we might.
	Lots of people want to talk to you.
	So, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Hello there.
	No, I guess I didn't push the right button.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Malachi Martin.
	Hi.
	Yes.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, you're on the air.
	Hello.
	Yes, I'm on.
	Am I on the air?
	Yes, you are.
	Turn your radio off.
	You've got to do that right away.
	That's a difficult thing.
	All right.
	If you have your radio on... My radio is off.
	Where are you calling from?
	San Diego, California.
	A long way away.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Yes.
	First of all, I wanted to say that it's fascinating to... I'm a little nervous here.
	Don't be nervous at all.
	We're all nervous from that point.
	Thanks.
	I just wanted to say, this is...
	Dr. Malachi Martin reminds me of some detective story that he's in New York in the middle of the night, and he's mysterious and very fascinating.
	I mean that as a compliment, though.
	It just reminds me of something out of an old detective novel or something.
	Well, interesting.
	What I wanted to ask was, would you Guess who you think would be the next Pope, and I have ventured a guess, or a possible candidate, of the Archbishop of Milan, Carlo M. Martini, and I was wondering if you were familiar with him.
	Yes, I know Carlo Martini.
	He was rector of the last house in which I lived.
	Although he wasn't Rector when I was there.
	He was at the Pontifical Biblical Institute, a Jesuit.
	A very brilliant man, by the way, and good at his Biblical profession as well as in Cardinaling.
	He has become a frontrunner for the papacy.
	Oh, he's on the side of Rome, then?
	Oh, yeah.
	Per se.
	Although he's Cardinal Archbishop of Milan, he's one of the frontrunners.
	So he could possibly be the next Pope?
	He could possibly be elected the next Pope.
	Wow, that's fascinating.
	And I was wondering, it was interesting to me, you've been talking about feminism, and it was interesting to me that the new version of the Psalms for the Catholic Americans was disapproved by Rome.
	Is this a sign of what you were talking about?
	Well, you see, what happened was that the translators of the new version of the Psalms decided to be inclusivist, and therefore they wiped out any his or hers.
	His or him.
	That's ridiculous.
	It goes to extraordinary lengths.
	And the use of the word man was ruled out.
	And human even is avoided, because the word man is in it.
	at the demands of many feminists and really English becomes re-emasculated as a language.
	You know what I mean?
	Right, I understand.
	I understand.
	Gender neutral.
	There's no such thing.
	We're not gender neutral.
	I know Hungarian isn't Gaelic.
	My native tongue, Gaelic, can be also gender neutral.
	That doesn't mean there don't need to be chauvinists.
	The Irish and the Hungarians are terrible chauvinists.
	Well, it was an honor to talk to you, and thank you for your time.
	Thank you for your call.
	Take care.
	Take a rest, a few moments, we'll break here at the bottom of the hour and come back and dive into these phone lines.
	Lovely.
	All right.
	My guest is Dr. Malachi Martin, and I guess I'm going all over the place here with titles.
	So be it, I guess.
	I guess that's just the way I have to do it.
	I feel this respect and I have to figure out some way to demonstrate it, but I'm not doing it consistently.
	So be it.
	At any rate, if you have questions for Dr. Martin, come now.
	You're listening to The American.
	CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	We'll be right back.
	Doctor, our coverage is worldwide, we're heard worldwide, and the following question is from David in New Zealand, sent by fax.
	Doctor Martin, a person whom I trust while he was, quote, out of his body, end quote, attempted to enter the secret archives of the Vatican.
	He said he was repelled by two angels at the archives door and was forced to return to his body.
	Can you comment on it?
	Can you tell us who is allowed to enter and read these archives?
	The archives are now under the care of a man called the Biblio Picarius, the Papal Librarian, or the Vatican Librarian.
	And it's a position similar to the Librarian of Congress.
	It's a very honorific job, and it's an honest job.
	He actually must sign permission for you to enter the secret archives.
	In order to get that permission, you have to have a qualification, of course.
	You have to be a historian or a researcher on an authorized mission, and you have to know definitively what you want to get, because there's so much there, and you must know what you're looking for.
	You may then get permission to do so, but once you get permission, though, it's carte blanche.
	They give you full facilities and full easement in your work there.
	But it's a difficult thing to get just right off.
	You can't get it by simply showing up one day and saying, I'm so-and-so Malachi Martin, I want to enter the secret archives.
	And usually if it's a priest, he must have a letter from his bishop, or from the rector of the institute to which he belongs, a university, an academy, or whatever it is, or a theologian, or a philosopher, or a seminary of some kind or other.
	In other words, they insist on very closely monitoring the identity of who enters.
	And it has to be so because there are invaluable things there.
	They've had terrible robberies there.
	People came in and they walked away with very valuable manuscripts, you know, and they were
	eventually caught one way or the other.
	Well, you would think that a place you wouldn't want to steal, if there was any place where
	you wouldn't want to steal, that would be the place.
	Well, there was a case in my time where a very, very rich Brazilian wanted a certain document referring back to a papal prescription in the 16th century, or the 17th century.
	And he paid somebody, and I went into the ID and everything else, but they wouldn't be accepted.
	And he did get in, and he did attempt to steal it, and he was caught.
	There are such things as that.
	But there are invaluable things there, and things that have never been unearthed.
	Ah, one can only wonder.
	Yeah, one can only wonder.
	You wonder, really.
	There are seven miles of archives beneath the Vatican.
	Seven miles?
	Seven miles?
	Yes.
	Actually, it's a fantastic thing, Art.
	When you go through it, as you go, the light starts and the light behind you dies out.
	The light follows you wherever you go.
	That is incredible.
	It's air-conditioned and, you know, it's maintained in a very careful environment.
	Because, yes, they have papyri there.
	They have ancient books that can fall to pieces merely by being handled.
	I understand.
	All right, first time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Dr. Martin, it's an honor and a privilege.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Incorporated, Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
	I have six questions but I'll narrow it down to four if at all possible.
	I perceive the way I perceive the world as an apartheid and genocide in America as a corporate American society.
	How do you perceive this being in the near future?
	I'll tell you what I think.
	The structure of the near future of the world, I will not see it, I think, unless God prolongs my age to 120 or something like that.
	A prediction of it.
	The idea of a national government, of a nation state, is disappearing.
	We're going to have regional authorities.
	And we're already slipping into that with our NAFTA and our European Union.
	We're slipping into that already, and even within vast communities such as we have in the United States of 250 million people, I can foresee the day when, for instance, there will be a certain black or white enclave, and accepted by people as such.
	I think we're coming to the stage, lady, and I hope it doesn't frighten you or shock you, We're coming to the stage that laws will be made affecting our salaries, our vacations, our education, our birth and death, our medicine, our politics.
	Laws will be made by more than Americans.
	It won't be Congress, it won't be the Senate, merely.
	It'll be foreigners.
	I mean, non-Americans.
	I think we're at that stage of regionalism.
	I got the point.
	You got the point?
	Yeah, I understand it quite clearly.
	That is very factual, absolutely.
	The other question is, my ability to predict without, you know, the personification of predictions, like this plane that just went down, now they're saying it was a laser, I always had the assumption, I would say, you know, that it was.
	Am I going into a middle plateau without checks and balances there?
	I'll tell you my advice to you.
	My advice to you is this.
	If you have that ability and it comes up unbidden, that's one thing.
	If you were to use it to guide your life or to guide others' lives in a very active, interventionist way, then you need guidance.
	How do I get that?
	You've got a very good confessor, a very good priest, who knows his stuff, who has what they call discernment of spirits.
	What is your first name?
	Liza.
	Liza.
	You see, it's discernment of spirits, what spirits are moving you.
	Once you exercise those gifts of the middle plateau, Then you need somebody to say, no, that's the wrong instinct.
	Yes, because sometimes I don't know and I get really stressed out.
	You must get a very, very saintly confessor.
	Now, mummification, you know, is like, you know, after dying, mummification, you know, it's like being mummied for, you know, instead of being buried in the ground.
	Is that a sin?
	Well, mummification, are you in favor of that?
	Yes.
	Well, there's nothing wrong with that.
	Okay.
	Technically speaking, religiously speaking, there's nothing wrong with it at all.
	But be very careful because It's a great gift that can be used, as we saw with Major Ed Dames in his work, but it also can provide your undoing.
	But not necessarily so.
	It's a gift of God.
	You can use it for God's glory.
	Okay.
	I bid you peace, love, joy, and happiness.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you, Eliza.
	Very interesting call.
	Wasn't this?
	Yes.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hello, where are you calling from?
	Tucson, Arizona.
	Yes, sir.
	My name is Mike.
	Father Martin.
	Fascinating.
	I have a question for you.
	Yes, Mike.
	Suppose there were extraterrestrial visits to the Earth that was so dramatic that it couldn't be denied.
	Yes.
	How should Christians feel?
	Afraid?
	No.
	No.
	And Mike, I must, I invoke a privilege here.
	How will I put this?
	It is dangerous for the mind to pursue the whole idea of beings on another planet.
	It is dangerous to the mind for the moment because we haven't got any physical basis for it, really, nothing concrete.
	Christians should look on it immediately as the presence of beings who also, if they're beings with a mind and a will, Have been saved also by the blood of Jesus.
	Isn't sin just here on earth?
	Isn't the devil confined to the earth?
	No, because he said, Jesus said, all power is given me in the heavens and on earth.
	But the devil's confined to the earth, right?
	The devil for the moment is confined to the earth, but that doesn't mean he would be confined only to the earth.
	And I'm sure that if we had colonies on the far side of the moon, or in Mars, anyway the far side of the moon, that the devil could be after fair
	all right uh... father of the interject here as you know there have been recent revelations here and in
	europe yet with regard to at least at the microbial states the
	discovery of life That's right.
	There's a strong possibility that there was microbic life at that level of life.
	And kind of like with where there's smoke, there's fire, you may eventually discover that there is life elsewhere.
	It's not unreasonable.
	Well, I'll tell you, my personal belief, if you want to ask me, you can call me crazy, a crazy Irishman, I firmly believe there is life in other galaxies.
	and then not about that
	if yes but we we must presume that that life may have a technology that one day may allow
	them to come and see us absolutely
	and by the way uh... that
	you and i know we all know but we don't know much more than that
	we do know we have exhausted
	the means of energy we have
	fossil fuel and we have got nuclear energy
	It's a finite supply.
	Yeah.
	Number one, it's finite.
	And number two, we know that for what we want to do, travel, galaxy travel, we need another source of energy.
	Yes, sir.
	And we will get it.
	We will get it.
	So then Christians should not necessarily cower down on possibility.
	Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	Good morning.
	This is Tim in San Diego.
	Dr. Martin, you impressed me as a wise person.
	Thank you very much.
	It's a compliment really.
	Good morning, this is Tim in San Diego.
	Hi Jim.
	Good morning Jim.
	Dr. Martin, you impressed me as a wise person.
	Well thank you very much, it's a compliment really.
	Well, that's why I'd like to ask you a question about, you know, choosing a religion to put
	your faith in.
	Yes.
	Someone like me, I've never really been able to do that because there's so many different
	religions.
	I know.
	How would you advise someone like myself?
	I'll tell you.
	Did you ever kneel down and pray?
	Yes, I have.
	Well, I'll tell you.
	Morning or night, once a day.
	It's a simple thing.
	It's not a trick.
	It's just simply a habit that can produce results.
	Kneel down.
	Address God and say, look, you want me as your creature to adore you and serve you on earth and give you glory.
	Send me somebody.
	Send me the means of knowing that.
	Ask him.
	Ask him and he will send it.
	As sure as I'm speaking to you.
	Okay.
	That's a good answer.
	You must do it.
	As a child, you must do it trustfully.
	You must do it knowing that he is your father, finally.
	What if you have not done it as this gentleman is not a child and wants to know now?
	Same process?
	Same process.
	But be childlike.
	You must be childlike in your trust, as you would with somebody who loves you dearly.
	Ask him as a father, in other words.
	Ask him as a father and say, you want me to give you glory.
	You want me to serve you.
	I feel the urge.
	You've given me this instinct.
	Now show me how, because I do not know how.
	Okay, thank you very much. That's what I would say, Mike.
	Alright. First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin. Hi.
	Fantastic. Great show.
	Thank you. Where are you, sir?
	I am in Sacramento.
	Alright.
	Yes. Father?
	Yes?
	Yes, I'm interested in finding out your opinion on the revelations from Father Don Dobby.
	Yes.
	I'll tell you what I think.
	I'm sorry, I've interrupted you.
	Oh no, I was just also going to ask you about Satan and some of the other Marian apparitions as well.
	Well, let me tell you about Father Gobby, as I call him.
	Gobby or Gobby.
	Look, the Virgin Mary, from the Gospels and from what we know of her, is a woman of very little words.
	She's a woman of a lot of actions, but very little words.
	And there is no way on the face of God's Earth That she could have said all those words that Father Gobi puts on her lips in his books.
	And I guess if Father Gobi was asked, I'm sure he would say to you, if he were asked, no, what I've done is I have clothed her thoughts in human words to make them more intelligible.
	Do you understand me?
	So that not everything is iplissima verba, as they say in Latin, the very words of Our Lady.
	You know, it would take a lifetime for her to say all that to Father Gobi, for him to copy it down.
	from her lips, number one. Number two, as regards Fatima, he is very sound on Fatima,
	and the Fatima prediction is being worked out at the present moment to our cost. But
	in the end, as she said herself to the children, my MacArthur's heart will triumph.
	Now I understand that, I believe his name is Father Fox, he is the birth father of Fatima.
	I saw him on a program recently and he was saying that he got a message to go to Sister
	Lucy's Cognitive Brain.
	Convent, and that the consecration of Russia to the heart of Mary had been accepted in 1984, and that he expected that the year 2000 would bring about at least the beginning of an incredible new period.
	Well, I'll tell you, here's the point, that what Lucy did say, and has said more than once, That although the Consecration hasn't been done as she asked it to be done, what the Pope did in 1984 in St.
	Peter's Square will suffice.
	That's what she said.
	That's what Lucy said.
	But it is quite clear to you and to me and to anybody looking at it that Russia has not been converted.
	Sure.
	That hasn't even started.
	True enough, since the disappearance of the USSR and the rise of Russia as a separate nation with the other former nations in what they call the CIS, the Confederation of Independent States, 4,000 churches have been reopened, they were closed by the Bolsheviks, but there is no religious revival in Russia.
	Oh, you're so correct.
	Collar, thank you.
	Absolutely no religious bias.
	I think you would be very surprised.
	I was in Russia last year.
	Yes.
	And other than in name, I was unable to detect the differences, other than a few surface differences, in Russia at all.
	To me, it was still... Just the same thing.
	You betcha.
	Same thing.
	Just more corruption, more immorality, more brutality, and more real Low grade villainy!
	That's a good, accurate description.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hello.
	Yes, Dr. Martin, sir.
	Yes, I wanted to ask a question.
	I wanted to get your opinion on Dante's The Inferno.
	Yes.
	Are you familiar with that?
	I am indeed.
	I have it and I read it every day of my life.
	Do you?
	I do.
	Okay, it's a very interesting book, man.
	It brought a lot of questions upon me about I'm sure it did because he has views of his own and it's beautifully done.
	Where are you calling from?
	I'm calling from Memphis, Tennessee.
	By the way, I wanted to mention Art Bell.
	You've got a great show going on there and I just recently started listening to it.
	It's the best show on the face of this earth.
	It really is.
	is nobody has done this thing, only Art Bell. And anything else you want to ask? No, I just
	wanted to ask about the Dante. It is very enlightening and I'll tell you something,
	Carl, too. If you do read, do you read in Italian or the English?
	I read in the English.
	Okay, it doesn't matter.
	In double Dutch, it's just as good.
	If you read it and cultivate it, you'll find that you begin to get great instruction from it, and encouragement too.
	You begin to understand human frailty and human goodness and God's justice and that
	sort of business.
	You know?
	Besides, it's very beautiful.
	Yes, it is.
	It's just very beautiful.
	Yes, this guy, he got pretty freaked out.
	Oh yes, he got really freaked out.
	That's right.
	Although, now you would explain something like that, I guess he has done the best job
	he could.
	Yes, well, I think the thing that always struck me about Dante was his relationship to Bess.
	Beatrice, the woman he fell in love with.
	He never really got to know, and he made her his guide.
	There's a famous picture, do you know it, of him meeting her on the Bridge of Sighs?
	Right, I remember that.
	And he did meet her on the Bridge of Sighs, holding his heart, and he obviously was smitten deeply with a deep love of her.
	He was a Republican, by the way.
	a very active Republican in his native country.
	I've got to interrupt.
	We're headed toward the top of the hour here.
	All right, bud.
	Thanks a lot.
	All right.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Doctor, hold on.
	We've got another hour ahead of us.
	Sure we have, Art.
	If you're all right, I'm okay.
	Well, you know, at 51, I'm sitting here wondering about your constitution.
	I guess I need to ask you about that.
	I don't know how you do it.
	I'll tell you why I do it, Art.
	First of all, I know I'm in the hands of a master.
	I'm not flattering you.
	I'm telling you the truth.
	There's nobody like you in this profession, number one.
	Number two, this is a chance to speak to my fellow human beings.
	When am I going to get it again?
	Well, alright, here we go.
	Back to Father Martin.
	A question for you, Father, and then we'll go back to Jones.
	Is it true, this is a fact, that the greatest collection of astrology manuals are at the Vatican, and why?
	Well, it is because the formation of the Vatican Library was started very early on, before most other libraries were begun.
	In Europe and in the world.
	And the Popes were avid collectors of everything, number one.
	And number two, when books on astrology were published in countries in Europe mainly, the local bishops sent copies of them to Rome to be vetted.
	And they went into a certain section, and by the way, there's a section, if we're going to make you laugh, but it's true, there's a section there which is for pornography.
	And you know, we theologians were over there, we used to refer to it as hell.
	It is there... Why?
	Why what?
	Why is it there?
	Well, because they were again sent for censorship, for vetting, and they have a principle, don't destroy books there, they don't burn books easily.
	Well, I assume that when one gets permission to visit these areas, it's not the most visited of them.
	No, it's not.
	It's not, actually.
	It's part of that seven miles of underground stuff I mentioned.
	That's remarkable.
	First time caller online, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Oh, Father Martin, I'm so glad to talk to you.
	Beverly, from Chicago, I met you when you were on your book tour.
	Yes, Beverly, I remember.
	Well, how are you?
	Beverly, you're going to have to speak up good and loud.
	You're kind of weak here.
	Okay.
	Father, I wanted to ask you, they found Typhus' tomb in Jerusalem.
	Does that have anything, do you think, to do with Revelation?
	Well, it may or may not.
	It's not very clear the sign of Revelation, Beverly.
	It really isn't.
	They found... You're referring to the tomb of Titus, are you?
	Caiaphas!
	Caiaphas!
	Oh, it does!
	It's a confirmation that the man existed.
	Because a hundred years ago, many scholars were denying that Caiaphas ever existed.
	And they were denying that he was one of the high priests.
	Now this comes to confirm it.
	And it just illustrates something, Beverly, which is very funny, and which is a backward procedure The older we get, and the further we are removed from the sources of the Bible, the more confirmation we're getting.
	For instance, it's only nowadays we found out a stone on which the name of Pontius Pilate was written.
	There were scholars, and their books are still on the shelves, in the last century and the beginning of this century, who deny there was ever such a man.
	I see.
	So, I mean, it does.
	It confirms that.
	But it doesn't give us much more light about Caiaphas.
	The only light we have is really from the Gospel.
	Well, I saw it in the Gospel of Christ saying, and you shall see me, Caiaphas, returning in glory, or whatever the... Yes.
	Well, what he said was this.
	When Caiaphas, a Jew, I said to him, listen, I impose a note on you as a Jew, and I'm a priest.
	Tell me, do you claim to be the Son of God?
	Yes.
	And he said, yes.
	I am the Son of God.
	And you will see the Son of Man, meaning Himself, returning on the Towers of Heaven.
	That's referring to... He was telling Caiaphas, look, you know from the Bible, from your Bible, from the Book of Daniel, you know well, the Son of Man comes in judgment on the nations.
	I'm telling you, I'm that man.
	Yes.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes.
	Whether Caiaphas listened or not is something else.
	Only God can judge him.
	Is it true also, Father, there should be a sign in the sky?
	Oh, I would say so.
	She said, is it true there would be a sign in the sky?
	And you certainly alluded to that with keep your eyes on the sky.
	Of course, there will be a sign in the sky.
	All right.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hello.
	Hey, how's it going?
	How are you doing?
	Tony from KVEG Country.
	In Los Gales.
	Yes, sir.
	Hey, this is a great show.
	Hi, Dr. Malachi.
	Hi there, how are you?
	What's on your mind?
	I got a comment for you and Art.
	I've been watching, I've been watched by people for a little while and you know they try to plug me as paranoid schizophrenic.
	Yes.
	And that's just recent, that's all recent.
	But I've seen, you know, I've been there and done that as far as seeing unidentified UFOs and sightings of unnatural origins, and it's hard for me to follow up on and participate as much and as interesting as you are, Dr. Malachi, as much as I'd like to with some of the things that you do say.
	But, let me, if I may, I've been watched during UFO events.
	By military planes, I assume, that are also in the area.
	And I can't, for the life of me, describe stuff like this to people without them thinking I'm a paranoid schizophrenic.
	And, you know, I just kind of wanted your quick comment on that.
	Then I've got a question for Art.
	All right.
	Well, I'll tell you, the only comment I've got to make to you is this.
	Look, put your trust in God.
	And it doesn't really matter what men say, provided you don't break the law.
	Then they have to intervene.
	I'm sure you do not break the law.
	But we all find in life that at a certain moment, you have to be independent of adversary comment on your life.
	Otherwise, you wouldn't do a thing.
	You'd be afraid.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi, Father Malachi Martin.
	Yes, sir.
	This is Ed from Madison, Wisconsin, calling.
	Ed, I'm glad to hear your voice.
	What's on your mind?
	The Bible says that Jesus fasted for 40 days and for 40 nights, and Moses also before him.
	That's right.
	And many saints have done so in the Christian tradition.
	And for myself in the last year, for 20 days, I've fasted twice.
	And I would highly recommend it to anyone.
	And so I have two questions for you.
	One, what is your opinion of the spiritual practice of fasting?
	And two, why has the Church shied away from recommending fasting?
	Well, number one, Christ himself.
	He recommended fasting very much, both by his example, as you've alleged, he just fasted for four days before he started his work, and also when he spoke about dealing with the devil and dealing with evil.
	Prayer and fasting he recommended.
	And we've all found, we have all found in the past, that fasting is a very salutary thing.
	It does sharpen the wits, and it does make you more attentive to spiritual things.
	Why the Church has shied away from it?
	Well, here I have to appear to be an old curmudgeon, and to have the grumbling and grouting.
	The reason is this, that a lot of clerics, a lot of prelates, a lot of bishops, a lot of cardinals have lost the spirit of Christianity, and they themselves like a good square meal four times a day, and they think everybody else should have it if they can afford it.
	So it's a lack of faith Believe you me, because fasting is a part of salvation.
	Does it not induce itself in kind of an altered state?
	Yes, it does.
	It does, if you exaggerate.
	But it's a very good thing.
	Even people who are training for football and swimming, they fast in their own way.
	Oh, yes.
	Indeed.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Good morning, Dr. Martin.
	Good morning, sir.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Yes, I'm crying about I have a dilemma here because I've had a problem with the priest in the past with sexual molestation.
	Oh boy, were you molested?
	Yes.
	I'm a handicapped person.
	This happened after I was 21.
	I'm calling from Albuquerque, New Mexico.
	They just recently had a thing for people to call in that needed help and a friend of He's a pathological liar, and I don't know, he just steals.
	He's just really confusing, and when I told him about my problem, we used to live together, and then he kicked me out, and he went to the church, and his lover is a lawyer, and they went and sued and won, and he told me, and he goes, well, I already know I'm going to go to hell, so It don't matter anyway.
	And when I tried to convince the sister Kate, who's looking over the case, about my situation, she said, well, because you're over 21, when it happened, there's nothing we could do.
	Oh, yeah.
	She's not correct.
	You can.
	By the way, try and contact Father John Fitzgerald at the Queen of Heaven Church on Claremont Avenue.
	John Fitzgerald?
	Father John Fitzgerald.
	Fitz, we call him.
	He's a very good priest.
	He's at the Queen of Heaven Church on Claremont Avenue, and he will help you.
	Tell him that you spoke to Malachy Martin.
	Okay, well, what do I do about my friend?
	I can't believe he did this, and when I called to give information about what he had done, they said, well, the case has been settled and closed.
	Well, has it been settled and closed?
	Well, I presume so, because he's got a lot of money and he's taken a lot of trips and he bought a new car.
	Well, I think Father Fitz will give you a very good direction in the matter.
	He's a very good, just, holy priest.
	He really is.
	All right.
	And the name again is what?
	John Fitzgerald.
	John Fitzgerald.
	At the Queen of Heaven Church, yes.
	All right, so there you go.
	East of the Rockies, you're on air with Father Martin.
	Hi.
	I'm calling from New Orleans.
	Yes, sir.
	I'm not receiving you on the radio right now.
	How are you doing, Father?
	I'd like to ask you a question.
	Sure.
	If I receive plausible intelligent thoughts, should I perceive that as divine intervention?
	If you receive plausible what?
	Intelligent thoughts.
	Thoughts.
	T-H-O-U-T-H.
	Oh, thoughts!
	Sorry.
	Should I perceive that as divine intervention?
	Yes, on one or two conditions.
	First of all, that the thoughts don't recommend you to do something sinful, number one.
	And number two, that they don't bring disturbance to your soul, they bring you peace.
	Right.
	If they do that, if it fulfills those two conditions, then you can go ahead.
	One more thing.
	If I'm not baptized, does that mean my soul is doomed?
	No, it does not, but it means you've got a job or work to do, because baptism is necessary for salvation, and you know about it, and you can't say, I didn't know about it.
	So you should go to a good priest and ask his advice.
	Thank you very much.
	All right, thank you.
	First time caller on the line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	All right, where are you calling from?
	Riverside, California.
	All right, you're on the air.
	Yeah, I just want to ask, Doctor, are you familiar with the 1 Timothy 4.3?
	What it says about, that you were talking about, now the church will allow the priest to get married?
	Well, at the present moment, the church doesn't allow priests to get married.
	But there is a proposal that they should be allowed.
	It isn't yet the law.
	Oh, but are you familiar with 1 Timothy 4 or 3?
	I don't get familiar with what?
	Are you familiar with 1 Timothy 4 or 3?
	1 Timothy, yes, yes.
	Yeah, yeah, okay.
	What about it?
	What it says that they forbidding the priest to get married?
	Yes, that is there alright, but they...
	We're not talking about marriage for bishops, we're talking about marriage for priests, when we speak about priestly marriage.
	Ah, West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Martin, hi.
	Oh, good, I'm glad I got through.
	How are you doing, Art?
	Fine, sir, where are you?
	I'm on the show from Santa Monica.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay, you spoke of Satan and Lucifer on the show last time as being two different beings, and I was wondering, which one is the devil, and what's the difference?
	Actually, the difference is this.
	By the way, if you're sitting in a room with your family, how many people are in your family?
	Five?
	Yes, there are.
	Five.
	Okay.
	There are five people in your family, and if you're all sitting in a room, and I say to you, how many people are in this room?
	You say, one, two, three, four, five, six.
	You count the bodies, isn't that right?
	Right.
	Now, with angels and spirits, they haven't got a body, so how do you count them?
	By their being?
	Their function.
	Ah.
	They do.
	Okay.
	They were created to function on this earth for man's benefit.
	One third of them, apparently, revolted against that and said, we will not serve, and they were condemned to hell.
	They became demons.
	Their leader was a being whose name was always called Lucifer, the Light Bearer, Son of the Dawn.
	His sidekick was a demon whose name has traditionally been called Satan, and Satan is really a Hebrew or Semitic term meaning adversary, Satan.
	Satan is an adversary in modern Hebrew.
	Oh, just one thing, don't cut me off.
	I have one more thing to say, Art, by the way.
	Keep going, sorry.
	Okay, so Lucifer is the chief angel, and his sign is the scorpion.
	The sign of Satan is the serpent.
	Okay.
	That's the distinction, but we know in exorcisms, there are two very distinct beings.
	Very distinctly.
	In fact, every demon is distinct from every other demon, but it's by their functions, you know.
	So Lucifer sent his sidekick to bring the apple to Eve.
	Yes, he did.
	He directed all that.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Good day, Art.
	Good day, Dr. Martin.
	My name is Joan.
	Where are you, Joan?
	I'm in San Fernando Valley, outside Los Angeles.
	Very good.
	Dr. Martin, with that lovely name Malachi, pronounced in the Gaelic, you obviously have heard of the prophecies of St.
	Malachi.
	Oh, sure I have.
	The prophecies of St.
	Malachi are a little like Nostradamus, but not quite.
	That's right.
	They're always sufficiently clear to interest you, but sufficiently vague to puzzle you.
	Yes, and they're only on the popes, then.
	That's right.
	Yes.
	Well, I understand that there's, according to the reading of them, there's only room for two more popes.
	But the prophecies themselves don't exclude the fact that there might be popes in between.
	That's again the hazardous character of predictions like this.
	It doesn't mean there couldn't be two more popes, three more popes in between, but the last two popes will be called Gloria or Levi and Petrus Romanus.
	We don't know in between, unfortunately.
	That's the terrible thing about oracles and predictions, that they tell you a lot, but they leave you puzzled.
	Now, can I get a copy of those anywhere, Doctor?
	Oh, yes.
	If I have an address, I'll send you a copy.
	They've been published in an ordinary pamphlet form.
	Okay, both of you, I'm sorry, I've got to interrupt.
	Think about that one.
	We'll pick it up after the break.
	Dr. Malachi Martin is my guest.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
	Back now to Dr. Martin.
	And, Doctor, are you there?
	Sure!
	Let me ask you a little bit about your constitution.
	For 76 years old, I'd like to know how you do it.
	First of all, I like doing it.
	That's a lot.
	Well, that's important.
	That's terribly important, because it makes it so much easier.
	Otherwise, you get very tired and bored, and you forget to fall asleep, or want some food.
	Yeah, but are you sure that you're not sent a little secret potion from the Vatican that keeps you going like this?
	I wish there were such a secret potion to make my bones, my creaking bones, as creaky as they are.
	No, I think it's sheer interest, and I have a good constitution.
	I've only had really one bad illness in my life, and that was open-heart surgery, when the old heart started giving trouble and saying, hey, I need some help.
	Otherwise, though, life has been uneventful.
	I still have my hair, my teeth, and that's all business, you know.
	No big secret, then?
	No, no big secret at all.
	No big secret at all, really.
	I wish I could find something today.
	No, I have nothing I can communicate at all except good luck with my health and God's blessing.
	Well, you certainly have that.
	First time caller on the line.
	You're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Good morning.
	This is me, Joan, again?
	Yes, it is.
	Well, I've worn up on the doctor.
	I'm 81.
	Oh, you are?
	Oh, good!
	I'm always glad to greet somebody like that, because they can tell me something about it.
	Well, to come back to the subject we were talking about, Doctor, first of all, regarding the book, I have the address you gave the last time, and I'll send a stamped address envelope and ask you to give me the information.
	Would you do that?
	I will get it to you, I promise you.
	But second, you've completely blown my theory about the last two popes.
	What I came to the conclusion of, some time ago it was considered that it was going to be the end of the world.
	I know, they thought that.
	Then they thought it was going to be the end of the Catholic Church.
	That's right.
	But my theory is completely different, and in view of various thoughts, and I think in view of your recent book, my theory was that perhaps the papacy would change back to what it was, Bishop of Rome and first among equals.
	Well, I'll tell you, Of course, we're dealing now with the imponderable, Joan, you realize, but my feeling is roughly the same, except that I add in what Our Lady said that Garibaldi, in which I believe, by the way, in that vision, that appearance she made in Spain, in Garibaldi, the town of Garibaldi, which is near Santander in Spain, in which she said that the present Holy Father, the present Pope, is the last Pope of these Catholic times.
	Not the last Pope of all time.
	No.
	But the implication is that these Catholic times are coming to an end.
	And Catholic times meant a period of time roughly since the year 400 A.D., 325 to be exact, but 400 A.D., when Catholicism grew to be very important and integral to Western civilization.
	In fact, it created a Western civilization.
	That period is coming to an end because this civilization is no longer Christian.
	And the church itself is being marginalized and sent into a new form of the catacombs.
	Now, the Pope was always first among equals, but he always had this extra thing called the Petrine Privilege.
	And that, I think, is going to stay.
	But a modified form of papal power is going to come through because of the fact that the political part, the sociopolitical part of the papacy, It's going to be diminished even further.
	And actually, don't you and I know, today it's a liability to be a Catholic.
	Absolutely is.
	Of course, that would be a help with joining, having friends with the Orthodox.
	It would, of course.
	That's their one difference.
	It would, of course.
	Although, that's a long way away to judge by the Orthodox.
	They don't want to hear or tell of it.
	Bartholomew of the Patriarch of Constantinople and Alexei of Moscow couldn't be more contemptuous.
	But the present pope is almost groveling with them in the good sense of the word.
	But they sort of walk by and say, oh no, you've got to change everything.
	We don't hear about the papacy.
	It's quite a distance away.
	Unless, keeping our eyes in the skies, we see the sign and the Queen of Heaven comes.
	At that stage, at the age of 81 and my age of 76, we shouldn't really care about it, John, because I think that it's It will be after our time down.
	We'll be playing hops, looking down.
	I hope.
	Dear lady, thank you.
	We've got to leave you.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye, and thank you, Doctor.
	God bless you.
	Take care.
	Before I forget it, before it gets away from me, you've got a lot of books out, latest being Windswept House.
	That's right.
	A double-day book.
	People can get that... Any normal bookstore.
	Any normal bookstore.
	and if they want to order they can order it at 1-800-323-9872 wait a minute
	1-800-323-9872 1-800
	1-800-323-9872.
	9-8-7-2.
	9-8-7-2.
	Now, everybody's going to be driving me crazy to have a way to contact you.
	Well, I'll tell you.
	Let them write to the following address, Art.
	All right.
	217 East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	All right.
	Say it again slower.
	East 66th Street, New York, New York 10021.
	That'll get me.
	If I can get it, they can get it.
	Alright, wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi, Dr. Martin.
	My question is, do you feel that the Ark of the Covenant is contained somewhere up seven miles beneath the Vatican?
	Well, I'll tell you, the Ark of the Covenant did disappear when Jerusalem was captured by the Romans in 132 A.D.
	Now, and it appears there's an arch.
	The Romans had a habit when they had a big victory, they built an archway, you know.
	And the Arch of Titus is in Rome, and on the Arch of Titus there is a picture, a drawing of the Ark of the Covenant.
	So far, so good.
	There is now a story, a legend, an idea, and in fact somebody has written a novel about it, that actually the Ark survived into Christian times, and is now finally in the possession of the Vatican, down in the secret archives.
	Now, I've never been through all the archives, but I know the Vatican very well.
	And if there was such a thing as the Ark of the Covenant there, I would know about it.
	I really would, because I was one of the privileged scholars of Judaism in the Vatican itself.
	So it is not there?
	I don't think it is.
	The Ark of the Covenant was made of wood anyway, and of course it can always last that amount of time, and it may well be there.
	There's another legend, or not legend, but a tradition, which says that it was tied up and bound carefully and then buried beneath the Tiber itself.
	We don't know.
	I'll tell you one thing.
	If God wants us to find the Ark of the Covenant, we will find it.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, sir.
	But it probably did go to Rome if it found the Arch of Titus pictured there as amongst the spoilers of war.
	Do you understand me?
	Yes, sir.
	Can I ask you one more question?
	Yes.
	Is this a false report that the Vatican is surrounded by Masonic Lodges and the Vatican officials are actually controlled by the Masons?
	No, that is false.
	That is really false.
	It's no such thing.
	There are Masons.
	Members of the Lodge are members of the Vatican.
	There's no doubt about that.
	Just as several bishops in the United States are Freemasons.
	Doctor, let me ask you about something and that is Egypt and the pyramids and the Sphinx.
	Yes.
	Many people feel we are on the verge of discovery with regard to chambers below the Sphinx.
	Yes, I'm told it.
	I'm told it, yes.
	I don't know much about it because I remember climbing the Sphinx and climbing the pyramids Entering the pyramids, but I know nothing about the present excavations there.
	What is your sense of those monuments?
	They are marvelous monuments to the religious instinct of man.
	The entire civilization of pharaonic Egypt, which is a marvelous civilization, started way back 3,000 years before Christ, by the way, contemporaneously with the With the Chinese civilization in 3000-4000 BC, the bat could attain, could be built on the idea of death.
	Everything centered around dying and immortality in the pharaonic religion.
	And it was an amazing achievement.
	And the Book of the Dead, one of the most famous books, is full of this very sublime truth.
	And they had a beautiful civilization that also has it.
	had its warts, as we say, you know, it had its faults.
	So they knew some things before they knew.
	Exactly, they did.
	There's some love, do you know that we have love stories and love letters from
	pharaonic officials that would touch your heart today, and they were written
	before Abraham.
	Wow.
	I mean, fantastic beauty.
	Fantastic beauty.
	East of the Rockies, you're on here with Dr. Martin. Hi.
	Yes, hello. My name is Eugenia from St. Louis.
	Louis, Missouri.
	Yes, ma'am.
	It's a lovely Greek name, Eugenia.
	Oh, thank you.
	Well, I'm Irish, and as a matter of fact, my father took our family on a two-week trip to Ireland, and he died at the airport.
	Oh, no.
	Yes, but it was a big 12-hour delay, and he died after the 12 hours right there at the airport.
	At Shannon Airport?
	Yeah, and a priest was right there to give him a blessing and everything.
	Well ma'am, that's where God, from the time that he was conceived, that's where God destined him to die.
	Yeah, I believe it.
	I wanted to ask you, I also believe in Garibaldi.
	Yes ma'am, so do I. The warning and the miracle.
	Yes.
	The warning, I study and study about it, but I cannot quite figure out what it really is going to be.
	Well, nobody can, but it's this.
	It's not a warning, really.
	There's no English word for it, but it's a putting on notice.
	You know when you say, I'll put you on notice that your rent will have to be paid by Monday or something like that?
	To put somebody on notice.
	That's what it means by the warning.
	It's a vestimiento in Spanish and Italian.
	to avert, to alert, to put on notice.
	And it's the putting on notice that God exists.
	And the promise is that when that sign appears, it will be visible to every human being existing at that
	moment on this globe, and that everybody will know their relationship to God.
	It doesn't mean they're going to believe in Him.
	It doesn't mean that they're going to be justified, that they will go to heaven if they die.
	No, it just means they will know exactly where they stand in their conscience.
	So, in other words, not to worry, you'll know it when you see it.
	That's right.
	The miracle, I would like to ask.
	Could the miracle... The miracle is something else.
	That's going to be a permanent sign.
	Okay.
	It wouldn't be the rapture, would it?
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	You don't think so?
	The rapture is something totally different.
	And Fatima Lucia has even said that communism We'll eventually take over the whole world.
	It will be all over the whole world.
	Well, no, she didn't say that.
	What she said was the errors of Marxism.
	Oh.
	The errors.
	And she talked about an annihilation of nations.
	Well, unfortunately, but truly, that is also predicted in this particular Fatima.
	Father, are we in this country making those errors now?
	No.
	No.
	No, no, we're not.
	They were indulging in some of them.
	The main error was sheer materialism.
	The denial of the supernatural, denial of heaven, denial of sin, denial of evil, and the just living for this world.
	That was the main error.
	There also was the social error of Marxism, and we're not committing that, yes, anywhere.
	All right, good.
	Wells to the Rockies.
	You're on there with Dr. Martin.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Dr. Martin?
	Yes.
	I believe you mentioned before the break that you did believe that The Earth would be hit by a comet or something like that.
	Say that again?
	No, that the Earth would not be hit by a comet, you would say.
	Yes, yes.
	I don't believe that God is going to destroy it with a comet like that.
	Okay.
	My question is, in Revelations it states that the Earth would be impacted by a star and that a mountain would fall into the sea.
	I was wondering what your belief on those might be and if they might be associated with that.
	That could happen.
	It wouldn't necessarily destroy the The Earth as we know it, I think that several predictions which I trust, but who am I?
	Several predictions I trust speak about a part of the continent being washed away by the sea, by a tsunami.
	And I don't like to think about that because of the people that would suffer and the loss of lives and the children and the animals and the destruction and the pain.
	But it's within the realm?
	It's within the well, which is within the well.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Martin, hi.
	Yes, hello Dr. Martin, this is Hieronymus from Los Angeles.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, could you speak specifically about the role that the Vatican is going to play in the emerging New World Order?
	That's a very interesting question.
	It'll take a longer time than we have at our disposal, but the essentials can be said very briefly.
	The New World Order, finally, essentially, and as it is now, is and will be increasingly, is a new arrangement of global finances.
	And it's a new control and direction of the flow of capital and the flow of capital goods.
	Have you noticed, for instance, that Russia and China have both been invited by the President of the United States, President Clinton, to join the World Trade Organization?
	And both Russia and China have recently become members of the Bureau of International
	Settlements, which is in Basel, and which is membership members are always just the
	heads of the central banks in every big industrial country.
	And in other words, the world, the church in Europe, based in Europe and spread all
	over the world, is going to be involved in an economic and a financial and a monetary
	and fiscal system where it has very little liberty.
	And therefore the ancient liberty of the Roman church to finance itself, to have its own
	bank and to have its own funds, is going to be severely restricted.
	Number one.
	Number two, there are laws now, for instance, in the European Union, which is going to unite every nation from Galway Bay to Vladivostok in one union, monetary union as well as political union, finally.
	They have laws that are strictly anti-Catholic.
	For instance, every constituent member of that union Must have laws permitting abortion and financing it.
	I see.
	And they also want laws permitting homosexual marriages.
	So from your assessment, is the New World Order a good or a bad thing?
	I'll tell you.
	It's obviously a stage in the development of human civilization that we can't avert.
	We can't stop.
	Do you know what I mean?
	It's coming whether we like it or not.
	If it's money, that aspect of it is very nearly in place already.
	It is.
	My point always, Art, is to say that don't speak about the coming new world order.
	It is here.
	It is here.
	If it's finances, it's here now, and the political changes will follow on.
	They will, and the pressure now is not from below.
	You see, up to this, in our century and previous to this, the pressure was from below, from nations rising up in revolutions and in popular uprisings.
	The pressure now is from on top, from those who guide the finances, And say, look, in order to manage this financial system, which is now globalist and manages every country's finances, in order to do that, we have to have certain rules.
	Nation states and the idea of nationalist governments and local parliaments, that's all got to be diminished.
	We're going to have regional authorities.
	And then, ultimately, global.
	Obviously.
	John, this gentleman, whether it's good or bad, it's here.
	I think it's probably good and bad, like most everything else.
	Another place that I was blessed to visit was Communist China.
	They are going through economic changes now that are astounding, even a little frightening.
	Inevitably, whether they like it or not, the political changes will follow, so you might mark that down as good, but then of course we can see many negative aspects of it.
	That's right.
	But you see, it's a human situation, it's not paradisiacal.
	Exactly.
	Father, we are at the end of yet another program.
	It just went It went like a flash of lightning.
	It really did.
	And Art, I want to thank you so much for having me on, giving me that privilege.
	It is a privilege.
	I want to be sure to be able to have you back on again.
	Well, you can, Art.
	You can.
	Just call.
	Establish it.
	It will be done.
	I shall do it, my friend.
	And I want to thank you, and Art, I keep you in my prayers in a good, benign sense of the word.
	Plus, I'm praying for you as a sinner.
	I'm praying for you as a brother and as a fellow traveler on this You know, Christians used to speak about being in via, being on the road.
	And those who are dead are in terminal, they've reached the end.
	But we are in via, you and I. As long as we're associated, you have my blessing and my prayers and my goodwill.
	Doctor, thank you.
	God bless you, Roger.
	Good night.
	That's Dr. Malachi Martin.
	And, uh, obviously, he won't be back again.
	Thank you all very much.
	To obtain a copy of this program, or any other program we do with a guest, 24 hours a day, you may call 1-800-917-4278.
	That's 1-800-917-4278.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

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