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Nov. 12, 1996 - Art Bell

02:11:42

Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Nasa-Moon-Mars-Egypt with Richard Hoagland & Ken Johnston

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	♪♪ ♪♪
	From the high desert in the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening, good morning,
	as the case may be across all these many, many time zones.
	From the Tahitian Hawaiian Island chains all the way eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S.
	Virgin Islands, south into South America, north to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet, this is Coast to Coast AM.
	Top of the morning, everybody, I'm Art Bell.
	Tonight, Richard C. Hoagland from Manhattan, New York, Angstrom Science Award winner, NASA consultant, consultant to Walter Cronkite, will be with us, along with Ken Johnston from the Seattle area.
	Ken has 30 years experience in the aerospace industry, including 13 years with Boeing.
	He has been a flight instructor on the Boeing 737-200, 300, 400, and 500 airplanes.
	737-200, 300, 400, and 500 airplanes.
	The 737, the 707, 727, and 757 airplanes.
	He holds a commercial single and multi-engine airplane instrument airplane flight instructors pilot license.
	He worked as an aerospace engineer for several major aerospace companies in Houston on the Apollo Skylab and Shuttle programs.
	So, he is an insider, and he will be with us as well.
	All of that coming up shortly.
	It's going to be an interesting program this morning.
	Buckle down and get ready.
	Many of you don't know what our Senate has done, or is doing.
	Let's now get underway to Manhattan, and well, let's say hi to both our guests, actually.
	Richard Hoagland, are you there?
	Good morning, Art.
	Good morning, Richard.
	Up again, late in Manhattan.
	And I believe Ken Johnston in Seattle.
	Ken, are you there?
	Yes, I am.
	Good morning.
	All right.
	There are many areas to move through, Richard.
	I'll let you take the lead and update us on what occurred with the rallies at JPL and at the Cape.
	Okay.
	Well, we survived.
	Actually, some pretty amazing things happened.
	We went down, as you know, about a week ago, Sunday, on the 3rd of November, to speak at Brevard County Community College for what was originally intended to be a three-hour briefing on essentially the history of the Enterprise Mission Investigation, of the possibility of ancient ruins and the former presence in the solar system by someone.
	We did a kind of a summation for the full house.
	We had almost 600 people who turned out that night.
	Many of them from many diverse places across the country.
	People listened to you and they followed your importunings to come and join the fun and be a part of history.
	And in fact in a few minutes we have a couple of those people who actually came by way of train.
	By way of Amtrak, all the way from Albuquerque, New Mexico, through Chicago, and to Washington, D.C., and then down to the Cape, and they then came back by train, and they are here tonight with us, and we will introduce them shortly.
	All right.
	Ken and I spoke for actually five hours, because there's just too much data, and we particularly wanted to get to the new stuff, to the very remarkable additional material now that we have Uncovered in terms of NASA's plans, its logs, its mission profiles, its actual activities as opposed to the data analysis that I've been concentrating on for a good part of the last 15 years.
	But we were able to present at Brevard last Sunday night on the 3rd with Ken's assistance because he had some first-hand knowledge of many parts of this puzzle now as it develops.
	It's kind of a smoking gun in terms of an agency which has not been For several reasons, apparently, telling us the truth for a very long time.
	May I stop you and say, you contacted me early on and said, Oh, gee, NASA's got a whole new attitude.
	It's a whole new day.
	They gave us a great place to demonstrate and gave us refreshments and all the rest of it.
	And then I talked to you toward the end of it and you said, well, as time wore on, it became somewhat less friendly.
	Well, things evolved.
	As you know, the briefing was to take place on the 9th of the 3rd, which is Sunday.
	The actual launch of the Mars Surveyor spacecraft back to Mars, the replacement for the missing Mars Observer, was to take place originally on the 6th of November, three days later, Wednesday afternoon.
	We spent the succeeding days getting ready for the demonstration.
	Joe Jordan and the crowd in Florida did yeoman service in Organizing some very effective, you know, placards and signs and all the things you have to do to make a splash.
	And they were the ones interfacing directly with the NASA officials at the Cape.
	And in fact, those officials were very helpful in moving the demonstration from out at the West Gate, the Gate 3, which is out where Route 1 intersects with a route called 450.
	And you have to drive into the base, you have to drive into the Kennedy Space Center on the NASA side to even get to where there's any life other than alligators and bald eagles and things like that.
	So what the NASA people did was to bring them inside Gate 3 and put them at the space park.
	There's a little museum there, actually it's not very little.
	Which has a model of the original Redstone rocket that Alan Shepard flew on his famous suborbital flight back in 1961 with a Mercury spacecraft and the tower up on top and it's strapped down with very long guy wires and they actually positioned our people at the base of that rocket and there were restrooms and there were cafeteria facilities and coffee and it was really a very generous, cooperative effort on the part of the personnel At the Kennedy Space Center there in Florida.
	These are indigenous personnel.
	In fact, when one amusing incident, after the aborted launch on the 6th, which was the one that didn't make it because they came down to the count, and the weather would not permit the spacecraft to fly, upper atmospheric winds would have done pretty nasty things to the vehicle climbing up through them.
	So they scrubbed the launch and recycled it for the following day, which was Thursday.
	Ken and I and other members of our group have managed to acquire press passes.
	So we were actually on site several miles to the east of the demonstration over on the Air Force side of Cape Canaveral, trapped because you cannot wander around on a military reservation without escort.
	So there was no way for us to get from the press site over to the demonstration after they kind of locked us down.
	So we had to wait until the count was scrubbed To where we could get in cars and caravan over, uh, about, what, two and a half to three miles, wouldn't you say, Kent?
	Uh, it seemed like it was about five miles away.
	Okay.
	As far as they wandered around.
	To join the rest of our folks who were out there doing their demonstrating thing.
	When we pulled into the demonstration, there were only, after about 50 people, I think, uh, at a high, uh, it had diminished.
	There had been some interesting rainstorms.
	Florida does this in the winter.
	Yes.
	You have rainstorms.
	And in fact, that was part of the weather front that precluded the launch on Wednesday.
	The demonstration had dwindled from about 50-some people down to maybe a dozen, who were still there, waiting for us to show up, which we did.
	And one of those people was the head of security for the Kennedy Space Center, who, when I got out of the car, after a few minutes, came up to me and Asked me if he could have my autograph.
	And I thanked him for being very gracious to our people, and he was dressed all in black with a very bright, shiny, gold-looking badge.
	Man in black.
	Looking, exactly, looking very official.
	And I couldn't, you know, I had no books left to sign, so I finally found a two-page bio on my briefcase that had been prepared for the press conference in Washington last March at the National Press Club.
	Signed that.
	And I signed that for him.
	And then he said, well, he says, don't sign it to me.
	He says, sign it to my friend who also works on base here, whose name is Gary Hoagland.
	Gary?
	I looked at him and I said, you're kidding.
	No, no, no.
	Well, this man who took this like, like, like a prize and left our site and went running across the parking lot over toward a set of buildings.
	I don't know whether they were going to compare signatures to ones they have on file or whatever, but it was just one of those interesting things.
	So those people, the Florida people, could not have treated us nicer.
	The strangeness, the really interesting strangeness, came the following day because Ken was supposed to return home and I prevailed upon him with my Usual, uh, extremely convincing, you know, uh... Stay one more day.
	Well, I thought that was my idea after a shot of light in the weather.
	And we, we, we, we got up the following morning and it was an absolutely crystal blue cloudless sky.
	There was not a cloud anywhere.
	And it just, it just felt like launch fever.
	It just felt like it was going to go.
	So we all trooped out again.
	The drill was we would caravan up to the Air Force Gate, Gate 1.
	On the southern side of the Air Force section of the Cape, mill around at the Guard Station there, until the NASA people and the Air Force people kind of, you know, got their act together.
	And then they would lead us all out in this long caravan of buses and cars and minivans and, you know, rental vehicles and mopeds.
	And, of course, all the news crews have these vans now with these very tall antennas.
	So we made a very interesting procession through the Palmetto and the Scrub and the And the grass passed some of the most historic launch sites, you know, on the East Coast, up until we got to the press site, which was located less than, well, just over a mile from Pad 17, where this Delta rocket was going to send this bird flying, if all went well.
	Well, on Thursday morning, it looked really good.
	We got there, our camera crew set up, you know, we had a very full contingent of people who actually were assisting us, some of which we had Caledon and others who had serendipitously just kind of showed up by providence in Amtrak, and we'll get to that in a minute.
	Anyway, my strategy for that day was we brought down something like a hundred or so of these full-color posters.
	The beautiful monuments on Mars with the perspective color view of Cydonia.
	Yes.
	And the comparisons with the sphinx in Egypt and the math and geometry.
	And I'm sure that's where the problem began.
	That is where the problem began.
	Because my strategy was to stake out territory along the bank of telephones, which are provided for the press, and to put this poster up as a backdrop for some stand-up pieces that I wanted to do For context for the next set of videos that are flowing out of all of the activity that we've been conducting between Seattle and the Cape in the last month or so.
	All right, and to give the audience some perspective who may not have heard this, Richard feels and has shown evidence that the Apollo program, well Apollo, that the space program of this country has been driven by discoveries that you believe were made in Egypt and by people who made those discoveries.
	And so naturally when you cranked out all these posters NASA probably said to itself, uh-oh.
	Well, the strategy, I was going to be very low-key.
	I was going to put this poster up and basically do a couple of stand-ups in front of it, you know, digital film and some motion picture and some of the home video and all that.
	And if any of the press wandered up, as presser want to do, you know, for free stuff, because the contractors and the University of Arizona And NASA itself were handing out packets, and there were large, you know, multiple leafleted packets on the McDonnell Douglas team, and the rocket, you know, the Delta II rocket.
	Anything you ever wanted to know about how this Delta was put together, which is a commercial vehicle.
	I mean, these guys are not giving this stuff away.
	They are selling rockets.
	Sure.
	So they have commercial stuff out there.
	So there was nothing untoward about us putting up a poster, which is the heart and substance of this investigation.
	And it was just one poster.
	So I put it up, and you're kind of checking the angles, and brilliant sunlight, and you know, Ken is helping.
	And I had the laptop there, which I was going to be using to download some of the digital stuff.
	And I see a woman kind of making a beeline from across the mound.
	And she was, she had been there the day before.
	She was obviously some kind of official with more badges than one could count.
	And she made a beeline for this poster, which was hanging on this white backdrop, and started to take it down.
	And I said, uh, what are you doing?
	She says, I'm taking this down.
	She said, we've had complaints.
	I said, no you're not.
	I said, who complained?
	She says, oh, the press is complaining.
	It's very distracting.
	She said, this is a working press area.
	I looked at her and I said, madam, I am working press.
	I have credentials.
	I have accreditation.
	Before we go on, Richard, what did the poster show?
	The poster, which we have, you know, sold hundreds and maybe thousands of these things, shows it's a color poster, black, with the red deserts of Mars, a perspective shot from Dr. Mark Carlotto of frame 35A72, of the face and the pyramids, and the DNM pyramid.
	Below it there is the rectified photographs of the mosaics that NASA has put together.
	Of several of the frames.
	There is the geometric design and template of the relationship model that I have worked out.
	There is several text panels.
	There is a close-up of the face in the upper left-hand corner of the low-sun angle shot, which is very spectacular, showing the teeth and the mouth.
	And then there is a view in the middle of the Sphinx here on Earth, at Giza, with the Khefren Pyramid silhouetted behind it.
	Silhouetted against a Hubble view of Mars as seen from Earth orbit in color, which Ken Thea, our art director, has all worked out and put together and has created this very, very lavishly beautiful art piece, which is also science.
	It's science and art all in one movie-sized poster, the kind that you would see in a movie theater if you walk in to see coming attractions.
	It's that size.
	It's about 30 by 20 For something like that.
	It's quite large and spectacular.
	Since you archive photographs, were these all legitimate photographs on the poster?
	That's the data.
	This is NASA's elevator.
	Well, I'm asking Ken here.
	Oh, yeah.
	These were actually, like Richard said, were the copies of the photographs that have been taken on Mars, and I think they've been computer-enhanced by Carlotto and the team.
	So there was nothing hoaxed?
	No, not nothing at all.
	No, of course not.
	In fact, I think Richard, the lady, is the same lady that passed out the JPL badges to us the day before.
	Yes, she did.
	And the contract to the McDonnell Douglas leaflets and the Folders or flyers with all the McDonnell Douglas literature, espousing how you can buy the rockets for, you know, a cool $25 million beast.
	You know, she was a very determined lady.
	She was, apparently, she works for George Alexander, who is the head of public affairs for the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.
	Well, why in the world would the press complain, Richard?
	They love this kind of stuff.
	They wouldn't complain.
	This is their bread and butter.
	No, I'm standing, well, and what really weird is, I had put this on the launch pad facing side of this construction, which houses all these telephones.
	The press, because of the bright sunlight, was on the other side, on the shadowed side, so they could see their laptops and plug them directly into this bank of telephones, which are supported by the structure.
	There was a concrete pad where desks and whatever are normally supposed to be placed.
	And in front of this support structure, which was absolutely blank, absolutely clear, there was nothing, there was no one.
	In fact, one of our friends from Florida Today, who the previous day had set up his computer in his little lawn chair in his facility on that side, that morning had moved to the other side, to the shadowed side, so that he could actually see his screen.
	So there was nothing that anyone could object to because it was below the top of the structure, Um, there was no way it was obstructing the view.
	Okay, so they were objecting, then, to the content of the poster.
	Absolutely, and she said it was disturbing the press.
	So I stood there, and I was trying to make the point that, you know, there's such a thing as the First Amendment.
	So she gets more and more adamant and says, I'm trying to be nice about this.
	Hold that story.
	Richard, hold the story.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We've got a break right here, and we'll be right back.
	My guests are Richard Hoagland and Ken Johnston.
	And they'll be back in a moment, and we'll learn what really happened at the Cape when Richard talked about the First Amendment and said, I'm not taking this down.
	That should be interesting.
	coming up next. We'll be right back.
	Well, what was really interesting is this person was obviously not from NASA, from the Cape Canaveral area.
	She was from out of town.
	And she was working, I learned later.
	I didn't know this at the time because I didn't really know her from Eve.
	But she was definitely of a different mindset than the other NASA people that we had dealt with, as I want to say and I want to stress, had bent over backward to be terribly, terribly helpful.
	Uh, to the rally of a demonstration the previous day.
	This person had an imperious air, uh, which I realized later was part of where she was from, which was Southern California, from JPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which is the source of a lot of the problems on the Viking data, uh, for many, many, many years.
	And on the lunar data as well.
	And so if the audience understands what you were protesting, Richard, you wanted to be damn sure that the data that comes from this new probe is honest data, not substituted data.
	Well, what's interesting, Ken, and you can speak to this, is that one of our newfound friends is a member of the JPL contingent, an engineer, who is part of what's called the Data Support Team.
	Engineers who format and process and make sure that the data electronically has its own integrity.
	There's not noise in it.
	He had come to the presentation on Sunday night that Ken and I gave.
	He took a bunch of stuff with him.
	He had me sign a book.
	And he shows up at the press site on Wednesday, where we are.
	And he then is one of the people, because he has the proper badges, who literally takes us in his car And ferries us across the Cape, out to Gate 3, where our other people are carrying on this demonstration and this rally.
	And all the way out across the Cape, we're having this conversation, Ken and he and I, regarding the integrity of the data politically.
	The fact that, you know, I am very, very apprehensive that something is going to happen to this information, somewhere between the spacecraft and the Earth, and the pictures we ultimately get to see, if we do get to see pictures of Cydonia, May in fact not be unaltered pictures.
	And it was this individual who told us that there are many people within NASA, within the system, within JPL, who are interested in what we have been discussing and saying.
	And so we basically called upon him and his colleagues to help us preserve the integrity of this data.
	So I don't want to give the impression at all that this is a monolithic problem.
	This individual, this woman, works for the Public Affairs Office.
	Richard, I'm curious, would it be unfair to say there are people within NASA, unnamed, of course, who are suspicious of their own organization or untrusting of their own organization?
	Ken?
	Oh, I would say absolutely.
	Really?
	This particular individual, I wanted to add in there, we discussed at length the way in which false data could be uplinked to the spacecraft and later broadcast back from the recorders on board.
	He had this rather surprised look at him on his face when he said, you know, you're absolutely right.
	It could be done.
	So, you know, technically, technically, technically, it could be done.
	And I gave him examples, particularly around Mars Observer, where there was an 85 minute period and a resulting very strange set of conflicting information out of headquarters in JPL over the incident for weeks afterwards that he had heard about, but had not pursued.
	And I've actually now had him Follow up and try to find out what really did happen in this mysterious period where for 85 minutes after launch three years ago, Morrison River was completely lost.
	You know, years, a full year before they ultimately did lose it.
	And there was a very strange set of incidents, which I described in the update to Monuments, the fourth edition, which has just come out, backed up by internal JPL memos and documents.
	That all was not exactly the way it should have been with the data that suddenly and ultimately appeared on the spacecraft tape recorders when there had been no data on two previous attempts to retrieve it by the Deep Space Network.
	So by laying on him this precedent, this on-the-record precedent, and having the time as we're driving on Wednesday after the scrub of the launch across the cape with him as our guide and our official escort, Ken and I did a pretty good job in In, I believe, getting his interest and his attention, and that of people that he works with, on a matter that's of utmost importance, which is to guarantee the paper chain, the chain of evidence, the security of the information that we ultimately get to look at from this spacecraft in about a year.
	All right, well, we already have some data, gentlemen, correct?
	In other words, some photographs of the Cydonia region.
	Yes, we do.
	I'm curious how you think those photographs, Might be, or could be, modified in this coming trip.
	Well, see, this is what was so interesting about this woman and her attempt to tear down this poster, because it was obvious if you stood back and you objectively looked, as a member of the press who had only heard funny stories and NASA's claim that it's all tricks of light and shadow, when you see this data for the first time, for instance, John Zarrello, who was the CNN correspondent, Who I ultimately wound up doing a very extensive piece.
	Yes.
	And Ken, I found out today from Gordon, Gordon Mutch, our esteemed director and camera person, that Zorrello is actually putting that piece, he was cutting it today and it will be at a very extensive CNN piece on Mars to be broadcast the first week in December before Mars Pathfinder is launched.
	Oh, very good.
	Zorrello was handed a copy of the poster, as were many others, Primarily due to Ken Johnson's yeoman efforts.
	Ken makes a very good guerrilla warrior.
	Because with all of this attention on this woman trying to take down the poster, after I successfully battled her to a standstill, and I'll get to how I did that in a minute, there was a lot of interest that had not been there before.
	And if you stand looking at this thing objectively, you've never seen these pictures before, you've heard about the face of Mars, you've heard about the pyramid, but you haven't really seen anything up close And personal.
	Right.
	When you look at this, it is truly incredibly impressive.
	All right, what does it say to the person who looks at it?
	We can't look at it right now.
	It says that there are three-dimensional structures that are so eerily familiar a la Egypt that have sphinx and pyramids and complex and intelligence and artificiality so written across them that if we get better pictures, 10, 20, 50 times better from Mars Surveyor, it's going to be darn hard to ignore that this is theirs.
	All right, Ken, how much better are the photographs we expect to get from Surveyor?
	Okay, well, I'm certainly not an expert in photography, but from what I understand, it'd be about 50 times, 10, 20 times more.
	One of the interesting things was that they had a program out here this week, the Sunday town meeting at the local TV program where they had DiPietro was on it.
	And this was one of the things that he was pointing out, how important it is.
	He was stressing to Lou Friedman that when we do get the pictures back that they will see in the eye sockets, they will see that there's an eyeball in the eye sockets.
	They'll see that there are actually teeth in the mouth, which they've been able to bring up with their special imaging process.
	We expect we'll see that kind of detail.
	Unless, unless that kind of detail is masked.
	And this again gets back to why this woman did not want the press, because we're talking about the focal point for the coverage of the entire mission all gathered on one 100 by 50 foot strip of lawn on a little, you know, piece of concrete Located 6,135 feet from the launch pad an hour before this thing was going up.
	So I'm standing there, toe-to-toe with this person who's getting progressively more angry and more insistent.
	And she's telling me things like, you know, well, if you don't take it down, I'm going to have to get the Air Force and they're going to eject you.
	So she did.
	She went and she got an Air Force, what was it, a colonel?
	No, second lieutenant.
	Second lieutenant.
	Right.
	Because Ken, of course, is kind of orbiting around watching this, as are many others Of the press, including people like John Noble Wilford, an old friend and colleague of mine, who just happens to be the science editor of the New York Times.
	Well, I am just not clear, Richard, on how she was selling this as something that was disturbing the press.
	That's bull.
	Well, Richard asked that question, and he asked specifically, who is it bothering?
	And she said, well, members of the press.
	And he says, well, you know, get me someone that it's bothering.
	And she couldn't.
	So she ran in this little shack.
	It was more like a, almost was a vine-covered cottage.
	It was a natural-paneled glass-in-control room where the NASA people and the Air Force people would gather.
	Right.
	It had communications and it had air conditioning and of course that's where all the NASA folks were, in the air conditioning.
	While we were out broiling under this brilliant Florida sun, putting on what was, we had what, 34 sunblocks, Ken?
	Is that what we finally had to do?
	We did the second day.
	The first day we got cooked.
	Anyway, some of this got cooked.
	Anyway, so out of this door, this air-conditioned little control room, comes this Air Force second lieutenant.
	And this woman then makes her big speech, and I'm, you know, basically causing a disturbance, and I'm not comporting with the rules of the facility, and, you know, I have to take this thing down, or I'm going to be ejected, etc.
	And this very nice second lieutenant looks at me, and she looks at the poster, and she looks at this JPL person, And she says basically, um, well, I, there's nothing I can do.
	And this woman then said, not the Air Force person, but the JPO woman, she says, she says, don't you understand you're on a military reservation?
	And I said, madam, I said, I am in the United States of America.
	I am an accredited member of the press functioning under the first amendment of the constitution.
	And unless you can provide someone who is complaining, I said, that poster stays where it is.
	Hmm.
	And she walked away.
	She says, well, stay out of my way.
	Now, Ken can describe what happened next.
	Well, that caused people that may not have been paying any attention to certainly start taking a look at it.
	Let me jump ahead just a little bit there, Richard.
	Up until that point, we really hadn't made any headway and hadn't even really tried talking to very many members of the press.
	They were focusing on getting ready for the launch and it seemed like Everyone was just waiting.
	As soon as the bird was up and going and secure and safe and on its way, there was a switch thrown.
	And every single one of the, approximately about six of them, the major network, starting off with CNN, every one of them wanted to get Richard Conard and do a spotlight piece.
	And that's what they did for about the next hour there was just one right after the other.
	So it got, it created the attention that they were trying to avoid.
	Inevitably.
	Inevitably.
	Richard, during these press pieces, were you able to succinctly get across why you were there and what it was about?
	Well, I think so, because the questions were being posed by people who had never seen this data.
	And having a pictorial representation of what it is we're talking about, that we're talking about things that look eerily like statues, like pyramidal forms.
	They look artificial.
	And the fact that that mission, Surveyor, can test in a year, you know, that hypothesis.
	Having it all in one place where the creme de la creme of the press was gathered to cover the implications and the scientific investigations of this NASA mission, $155 million NASA mission, Um, it really worked incredibly well.
	And one of the reasons it worked is because we had two people, who I said at the top of the show, had come many thousands of miles by rail, kind of representing, you know, your audience.
	People in your audience who could not be.
	Sure.
	And there's one of them who's here right now at Enterprise here, having come up from Washington with her friend Nick.
	Her name is Dana Balaban.
	I'd like to introduce Dana Art Bell.
	Okay.
	Hi, Dana.
	Hi, Art.
	How are you?
	Good.
	You came all the way from Albuquerque, eh?
	Yeah, we... Well, actually, I heard your show when I was in Vegas.
	Oh, yes.
	My friend Nick was in Albuquerque and heard the show.
	And when I got home to Albuquerque, we jumped on a train and went down to the Cape.
	That's a lot of train riding, Dana.
	It was a long train ride.
	Yes.
	It was well worth it, though.
	So, uh, what have you been doing since?
	Well, actually, we went down there, um, not really having any idea what we were going to experience.
	We went to, to see Richard's lecture and to actually just be part of the demonstration and part of history and to see what we could do.
	You know, we've listened to Richard on the radio and keeping up on the information and, uh, We ended up down there and the lecture was incredible.
	The information just kept pouring in.
	People just were getting more excited about what was really happening.
	We partook in the demonstration and then ended up when the launch got cancelled, we actually got together with Richard and Ken and their crew and got an opportunity of a lifetime And actually got to go with his group to witness the launch.
	We got press passes with them and went there and experienced probably one of the most incredible things I've ever experienced in my life.
	What was the launch like, Dana?
	It was incredible.
	At first when we got there, you know, the press was all setting up And it seemed like everyone was pretty much just there doing their job.
	They weren't even really realizing, you know, the magnitude of it and that they were going back to Mars and what, you know, they could find, will find, and even, you know, just the information that was there.
	They were just kind of standing around and I think the more that as they were waiting for the launch to happen, looking at the poster, Um, was giving them something to actually think about, that this is something that's up there, or at least the possibility they're now starting to entertain.
	And by the time the launch was over, uh, they were just lining up to talk to Richard, and I actually saw people seem to change, like they saw it leave the ground, and then they connected it with The possibilities.
	You bet.
	And an excitement that just started to come up in everyone.
	I know it did in me.
	And I was like taking pictures, of course.
	It was, you know, my video camera and still pictures.
	And I think I used my whole roll of film just on the first, I mean, when it just left the ground.
	I've never experienced anything like that.
	Well, I can understand how the press, after the event, after the thing is finally gone, becomes a small dot and then is finally gone, suddenly their attention would turn toward what it's going to do.
	And Richard and Ken would represent a definite hook, an angle for anybody in the press with regard to something beyond the physicality of the launch.
	And so I understand how they would turn their attention suddenly to Richard.
	Yeah, I really think if they... we wouldn't have had the... Richard wouldn't have had his poster and information there that they probably would have just filmed it and then left and gone to the press conference and it would not have had the impact that it did.
	With the press, definitely.
	What about you, Dana?
	What impact did all this have on you to make you get on a train and go all the way from Albuquerque to the Cape?
	What in the world was so strong?
	What was the pull for you, Dana?
	Well, I would say just the information.
	You know, I've listened to so many things on what is happening and it just all really started to click.
	And I thought, I want to really be a part of this.
	And you know, so many people listen to the radio and they hear this information and it's kind of hard to really digest it all.
	Well, you as one of the listeners, you kind of represent the listeners here.
	And so you've been there.
	You've done that.
	You've actually experienced all of this, Dana, as a listener and now as a participant.
	After you've You arrived and you really absorbed all of this and seen firsthand the information.
	Are you more of a believer, less of a believer?
	How do you feel?
	Well, as far as absorbed it, I am saturated.
	Definitely more of a believer.
	I mean, this is real.
	It's time that people, especially the people that are listening, To really start asking questions, to really start looking at things, you know, closer, and to do what they can, you know, to promote those that are bringing this information out, like Richard and Ken, and to really do something, you know, whatever they can to help promote this information coming out.
	People need to really start asking why and trying to see, you know, So in other words, the reality of it, you know, in front of your face has not turned you away, but more toward it.
	No, it's been, yeah, it's...
	Makes you want to see more.
	All right, Dana.
	Dana, I want to thank you, and we're at the top of the hour.
	We're going to take a break here, and we'll come back.
	But Dana, thank you.
	On the part of all the listeners out there who hear Richard, thank you for telling us all of that.
	Thank you, Art.
	Take care.
	That's Dana, somebody who joined Richard at the Cape.
	There'll be more.
	I'm Art Bell, and this is CBZ.
	To our guests, Richard Hoagland and Ken Johnston.
	Ken's in Seattle, Richard is in Manhattan.
	Richard?
	Yes, sir.
	All right, back on the air we are.
	Well, I want to wrap up a couple of points about the Cape, because the Cape experience for me was a very important benchmark in the last 15 years.
	All right.
	We have been discussing tonight the experience of the return to Mars, a public mission, $155 million, the American taxpayer, is shelling out one more time, with feeling, sending a spacecraft, an unmanned 2,000 pound robot, you know, coursing through space, spending a year getting there, where if we're all very lucky, and we work the politics correctly, maybe, just maybe, we can get a shot at finding out what's really there.
	And that's what Dana was trying to describe.
	It's a little intimidating, Art, for people who are not professional radio people to describe their feelings and their commitment and how they react to this.
	I think a more eloquent description of Dana and Nick's commitment is the fact that not only did they come so far to participate with us in this at the Cape, and then we were able to provide them with the experience of the launch, but they then got on a train and came up here to work at Enterprise.
	And they're spending a week doing everything from helping with filing to answering phones to, you know, returning responses to people who send in requests for information that we are totally, uh, unable on a timely basis to normally handle.
	Sure.
	You know, without, you know, several weeks delays.
	We are intending later this week to go to Washington to do what's called pickup shots around the nation's capital for these video series that we're putting together.
	They have a friend who's a filmmaker here in the metropolitan area who is finding free editing facilities for us because money is extraordinarily tight in this investigation and getting tighter as we try to do many more things.
	That successfully was achieved tonight.
	They are flying a colleague of ours up from Miami to actually direct both the editing and some of the Washington stuff and then, as if that were not enough, They made the most incredible, generous financial contribution out of their own pocket, and I won't embarrass them by telling you how much, but it is a major financial contribution.
	So when you ask people if they get it, Art, there are two people sitting here tonight in Weehawken, New Jersey, who unequivocally get it, and I want to thank them publicly and across the nation, because if we had a few more people like Dana and Nick, we would be on Mars tonight.
	Richard, I'd like to add something to that.
	What a lot of people were picked up on, and that is the fact that the efforts to go down there to Florida, to be there, to be at the rally, to do all that, something that Richard had to put out of his own pocket and everything else.
	It was not out as a money-making type trip and things like that.
	And since I'm still really kind of an outsider, I'm not part of that.
	We were very fortunate.
	One person stepped forward and said, hey, here's a thousand bucks if that won't help defray some of the expenses.
	And those type of people, someone's looking for a way to help.
	I mean, gosh, put your money where your mouth is.
	Well, that's very nice.
	And I'm glad there are people helping out.
	And it is interesting to hear it from a The point of view of a listener, somebody who had just been a listener to the program and actually took this step and got motivated and went down there and became part of it.
	So it's very interesting, it was very interesting indeed to hear from Dana.
	All right, Richard.
	Again, for a lot of the audience here who's not caught up on what this is all about, here we go back to Mars.
	There's been a lot of talk lately about life on Mars at the microbial level.
	The British did a follow-up thing.
	Life on Mars, they say, at the microbial level.
	And people are now beginning to speculate about the possibility of more.
	Now we've announced this mission to go kerplunk onto Europa and blow a piece of Europa into orbit.
	about the moon and gather it up and a lot of strange things going on out there and I wanted to ask you about those.
	Well, it's steamboat time, as Mark Twain said.
	For those who have just joined our far-flung and expanding radio family voyaging into the interstellar darkness, what we're talking about is basically testing the hypothesis that the human race is not alone.
	That out there in the solar system, even as we speak tonight, all across this darkened continent and far beyond, there are ruins left by someone a long time ago.
	Ruins that have been photographed by unmanned and even manned NASA missions, those to the Moon, that our space agency, for very interesting and arcane reasons, simply has not got around to telling us, in fact, exists.
	And the reason that Ken Johnston and I, joined by Nick and Dana, went to Cape Canaveral last week with demonstrators on both coasts at JPL on Wednesday morning.
	There was a contingent of about 50 people from the west coast who showed up outside the gates of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and had a very successful demonstration headed by David Laverty and Ken Thea and Jim Gruesrud and a few others.
	Aaron Johnston was there also.
	And on the East Coast, at Cape Canaveral, the reason that we did all this is because now that there's another mission returning to Mars with much better technology, much better cameras, that can give us pictures 10 to 50 times sharper than these 20-year-old Viking shots, we now can know.
	As I said in my stand-up pieces and in all those interviews I did after the launch on CNN and for Reuters and AP and many other television outlets at the Cape, This now is what it's all about.
	With this new mission, which will arrive in Mars orbit in September of 1997, spend four months aerobraking into orbit, the precise mapping orbit around Mars, and with a mission that will formally begin in March of 1998, we finally, at that time, if the politics can be made to be accountable, We can know if there are really ruins, if there are monuments on Mars tonight.
	And that's kind of closing the loop on a process and a mystery that began a generation ago.
	20 years ago this past July, Art, when Viking, our unmanned bicentennial Viking spacecraft to Mars in the summer of How did you meet and why do you have an association?
	Well, Ken, unbeknownst to me and me unbeknownst to him, were kind of colleagues in spirit and in fact during the Apollo mission.
	I was an advisor to Walter Cronkite, as you've said.
	I was basically in charge of covering, of creating simulations for the missions.
	I wrote a very important addition to the Grumman press book, the Grumman Aircraft Corporation actually built the lunar module.
	And while I was writing the addition to the lunar section on the Grumman Press Book, Ken Johnston was one of four Grumman engineers who were basically... How would you call yourselves?
	Grounded astronauts, Ken?
	Well, I've been referred to that.
	We were called consultant pilots, test pilots for NASA on the lunar module work for Grumman.
	And he accumulated something like 3,000 hours One of the neat things was I finally got a chance to see some of his old pictures of him in the spacesuits and in the simulators and in the zero-gravity aircraft and hanging upside down in the wires testing the NMU, which was the man-maneuvering unit.
	I got to see a Ken Johnson that's a little different than the Ken that I know now.
	All of it was going on when he was doing his thing with the space program and with Apollo and NASA, and I was doing my thing with Walter Cronkite and CBS.
	And where we came together, literally, was 30 years after all this had gone down.
	Ken and I did not meet until about a year ago.
	In fact, it will be a year ago this past March, when he came to a presentation I had done at the Seattle Center in Seattle, and of course that's where he works now at Boeing, which is Seattle, and basically wanted to have me sign a book.
	And Ken, you can pick it up, if you would.
	That's exactly right.
	One of my friends at Boeing had told me about the book about Mars, the Monuments of Mars, and we had talked many times about my interest in Mars.
	After having read it, just by chance, another associate called me and said, hey, the guy that wrote the book is in town tonight.
	Why don't you go down and see him?
	Well, I did that.
	I kind of wrote a little letter of introduction, hoping that would get me back in the chance to meet him and get him to sign the book.
	And there's a young lady out here that works with us, Rhonda Eckman, when she read my letter, which I had introduced myself saying that for a period of time I was the supervisor of the Data and Photo Control Department at the Lunar Sample Processing Lab, at the Lunar Receiving Laboratory, and I had a lot of pictures and things like that.
	She said, don't move, you're who we've been looking for, and that was kind of a shock.
	I did get to meet Richard there, and they came out to my house and took a look at some of the pictures.
	And it was kind of exciting because I found out they had been dealing with pictures from our archives, I say ours, the American people, getting 8th, 9th, and 10th generation prints, which are kind of grainy and not really clear.
	Fine for somebody who just wants a pretty picture to hang on a wall, but not really great for doing the kind of detailed analysis they were doing.
	But when they saw my stuff, which was first generation, right off of the original negative, The guy just went absolutely wild.
	That's where it all started.
	All right.
	You headed the Data and Photo Control Department for a period of time.
	You had these photographs at home, Ken?
	Well, it's interesting.
	Back in those days, when NASA would complete a mission, they would have a lot of extra copies of pictures made and make them available to the rank-and-file people working at the Johnson Space Center.
	In my capacity, I would have to have four complete sets of all the pictures, orbital pictures, as well as lunar surface pictures.
	And at one point in time, I was told to destroy all of them, just get rid of them, and just keep one set, and what they would keep as a master set.
	And I just couldn't see doing that.
	Why would they, excuse me, Ken, why would they tell you to destroy them?
	It didn't seem totally, well, it did seem kind of strange to me at the time I went and done what I did.
	That had followed about a month or two after a particular situation had come up where I had been asked to show the 60mm sequence camera film of the Apollo 14 mission.
	Right.
	And it was during that showing for Dr. Thornton Page, who was the chief scientist, chief astronomer for the space program there.
	And it was during that showing that on the backside of the moon as the command module was coming around and filming this, There was a particular crater that had a cluster of about five or six really bright lights down in the shadow portion of it, and looked like a column or a beam plume or something like that coming up.
	And Dr. Page had had me stop the camera, and I was using what they call a gun camera analysis sequence camera, so I could stop and go frame by frame and zoom in and out.
	He turned to about nine other astronomers and scientists and kind of said, well, isn't that interesting?
	They all kind of chuckled and laughed, kind of like an inside joke.
	I was told to complete the showing and then check the film back into the NASA photo laboratory, which I did.
	The next day I had to check the same film out, in short, to the rest of the rank and file at the main assembly building we had at JSC.
	And I was excited, telling the guys, you can't believe what's on the backside of the moon.
	It was coming up in that phase of it.
	And then we came up on the crater and clicked right on by.
	I checked the film and there were no cuts or splices.
	It was exactly what In other words, you're telling me that same shot wasn't there?
	That's exactly right.
	Oh my God.
	It vanished.
	It vanished.
	The only way they could have done it, Art, is that they would have had to cut out that section and then duplicated the film so that it looked absolutely pristine.
	Overnight?
	Overnight.
	24 hours.
	Oh, that's incredible.
	See that?
	That just underscores everything that Richard says.
	And, you know, I want to believe that NASA is honest, but after you hear this sort of thing, it's really hard.
	It's hard to believe.
	And then when did this order to destroy?
	I mean, I can't believe what the justification could be for destroying Let me interrupt for a second.
	Before I went with Cronkite, before I became a NASA consultant, long before I met Ken Johnson or was interested in any of this stuff, this is 10, 20, 30 years ago, I was in the museum field of art.
	I was curator of astronomy and space science.
	At the Museum of Science in Springfield, Massachusetts.
	I kind of cut my eye teeth on science at the museum level.
	Later, I was the assistant director of the Jenga Science Center, which was a big natural history museum in West Hartford, Connecticut.
	And then I went on to be head of special projects at Hayden Planetarium in New York City.
	And in each of those three capacities, if NASA people had come to us and said, We got some film you want to get rid of.
	Would you take it off our hands?
	Yeah, we're going to have to throw this away if you don't take it.
	We would have done anything for a set of these priceless second first generation films from orbit on the surface.
	When Ken told me a year ago when we met that he had been instructed by Michael Duke through the chain of command of Johnson to destroy, to get rid of four complete sets.
	of the Apollo legacy. And that's unbelievable. I was dumbfounded.
	I was stunned. These were original 70 millimeter Hasselblad film strips that were taken right
	from, you know, would have been second generation made copies made directly off the
	original. But I did wind up taking one complete and I told my manager, Bud Laskala of Brown and Root
	Northern, that I think they didn't mind if I were to donate a set of these to my alma mater, Oklahoma
	City University.
	Ken, can I ask you to get right into that phone and speak up for us?
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	I'm a little bit hoarse here, so I'm doing the best I can.
	I told my manager, Bud Laskawa, of the Brown Root Northrop Company at the time, that I said, why don't I just go ahead and donate a set of these to my alma mater, which was Oklahoma City University?
	And he said, I don't care what you do, just do what you tell them and get rid of them.
	So, um, I dutifully did what I was told, only I put them in a bag and took them home, and a few months later had an opportunity to go to Oklahoma City University and speak at their mid-year institute, and at that time, uh, presented them to, um, the President and Dr. Office Witten, and, uh, they, it's all written up in the, uh, school newspaper and all that, so there's quite a paper trail on that stuff.
	Don Wilhelms, who is one of the official geologists who sourced data in his book published by the University of Arizona Press, uh, to a rocky moon, we cite in terms of the Apollo data that we're going to
	talk about later this evening.
	Will Helms in his book describes a very disturbing incident to him, and he's one of the guys
	that's completely oblivious if there's anything unusual going on in the entire Apollo program,
	but he raises his head up and he makes note in his book that he actually saw NASA people
	at JSC dumping photos and maps and flight plans and other priceless data in dumpsters
	at the Johnson Space Center back at the close of the Apollo program.
	And I know for a fact two years ago when I took eight of our people to the National Space
	Science Data Center in Washington, D.C. out at Goddard, that the head of the lab there
	told me that he had been instructed to get rid of a lot of stuff that they had, and he
	was just dumping it in dumpsters because they couldn't think of anything to do with it.
	So it's not that it was 30 years ago, Ken.
	It's still going on, and this priceless legacy is being nibbled to death by ducks.
	It is literally being fritted away by mindless bureaucrats who haven't a clue as to how valuable this is to the American people or, what's worse, Who are being controlled and manipulated and inspired by people who do have a clue and basically want this legacy to go away.
	That stuff cost us, us the taxpayers, a lot of money.
	A lot of money.
	It's 1969 dollars.
	That's incredible.
	And Ken, again, there is no question about the fact that you showed a film to one group of astronomers, I think you said.
	Right.
	And then went back the next day, checked the film back out again, and that which they had found so amazing, which you were prepared to call attention to, was gone.
	That's correct.
	Gone.
	That's correct.
	Now, what's important is that the gentleman that he keeps referring to, Dr. Thornton Page, who I knew and worked with in the same time frame, for separate reasons, but Thornton Page and I were friends.
	Dr. Page was a member, Art, of the original Robertson panel.
	All right, hold it there.
	We'll come back to this, Richard.
	That just blows me away.
	Look, if you can't believe them once, then, in my opinion, that lays a foundation for why you shouldn't believe them twice.
	We'll be right back.
	Richard C. Hoagland and Ken Johnston.
	We'll get back to them in a moment.
	Now to our guests, Richard C. Hoagland and Ken Johnston.
	Richard, you're back on.
	Well, we were, before the break and before the news, we were talking about how when Ken was at Johnson Space Center, at now the Manned Spacecraft Center, or actually it was then the Manned Spacecraft Center, now it's Johnson, Um, as head of data he was instructed to get rid of, to destroy multiple copies of this priceless original Apollo data.
	And as you said just before the break, you know, if you can prove that they have done strange things.
	Then, in terms of future representations of the authenticity or the accuracy or the integrity of the NASA data chain... Look, I'll put it more strongly, Richard.
	If they'll screw with you once, they'll screw with you twice.
	And if they'll modify or destroy data once, they'll sure as hell do it again.
	Well, the thing that was so interesting to me is that there we are at Cape Canaveral.
	We're surrounded by working members of the press.
	We have our own camera crew.
	You know, we have lights, we have sound, we have technicians, we have directors.
	I'm, you know, doing basically network kind of stand-up pieces in front of the rocket.
	And this officious JPL person tries to get me to get rid of a quote, offending prop because she and her boss cannot stand that the other members of the press will see this and will maybe ask questions.
	As I said to many of the people who interviewed me that afternoon, if the system was totally honest, why would this person have been doing what she was trying to do?
	What is it about this data which is so disturbing to so many people in the agency that someone would attempt to literally intervene in the First Amendment process and to censor and to get the Air Force to throw us off the site?
	Well, why don't you answer that yourself.
	What in that is so offending that they would do that, Richard?
	It's the truth.
	It's Brookings.
	It's what the Brookings Report 20 years ago was highlighting.
	Well, 30 years ago, which was this official NASA study, commissioned when NASA was first formed, which basically forecast that at some point, as part of NASA's future activities from the perspective of 1959, that the agency might find evidence of ruins or actual intelligent beings elsewhere in the solar system.
	And then this same report, as we've said on the show many, many, many times, except to the folks in Chicago, it recommended that NASA not tell us if, in fact, it found such evidence, because it said there will be several major social groups That would be extremely disenchanted and disturbed by such information.
	I agree with that, as you know.
	First and foremost, scientists and engineers.
	Well, we've got an engineer at the other end of the country.
	Ken, are you disturbed by the prospect that the human race is not alone?
	Not at all.
	I mean, isn't that why you joined NASA?
	To find out?
	Actually, that's what we thought NASA was all about.
	Other than pushing the frontier and going to the moon.
	Would be to search for the possibility of extraterrestrial life.
	We're closer to it than ever before, that possibility, with Mars, with Europa.
	And there's a general feeling, gentlemen, that we're moving toward acquisition of knowledge, or more succinctly put, a revelation of knowledge, that it is so.
	I think the disturbing part, and what Brookings addressed, And what I will address with you is that if this knowledge is suddenly known, and it turns out that our beginnings are traceable to some past civilization, or some extraterrestrial civilization, oh yes, that would disturb a lot of people, Richard.
	Maybe not Ken Johnston, maybe not Richard Hoagland, but there's a religious group out there, a certain religious group, that would be very disturbed and very angry.
	Well, you know, we have gone through these major social paradigm shifts before.
	Not that major.
	Well, actually we have.
	Remember, we live through Galileo, meaning we as a culture, as a species.
	Galileo, the whole Galileo, and the reason there's a spacecraft tonight orbiting Jupiter called Galileo, about to swing by this little moon of Jupiter called Europa, within 400 miles in a couple, three weeks, is because there was a scientist in Padua, In Italy, several hundred years ago, who the church basically threatened with the Inquisition for proposing that objects orbited around the sun as opposed to just around the earth, that there were blemishes on the sunspots, that there were satellites wheeling around planets as seen in the sky, that the heavens were not as the church and as Aristotle
	That they were changeable, they were immutable, they were not forever eternal and forever unblemished.
	And, you know, what ultimately happened is that Galileo's perspective turned out to be right.
	And the Church actually apologized to Galileo.
	There was a formal apology published in among other places in the New York Times several years ago.
	Belated, yes, but it eventually came.
	And there are millions upon millions upon millions of members of the Roman Catholic family all over the world who did not leave the Church, did not break with their faith, did not, you know, go through agonies of indecision that Aristotle was wrong and the Church had made some egregious errors.
	They absorbed it into their view of life.
	Yes, but Richard, that's a physical difference, and they were able to absorb that while hanging on to basic tenets of what they believe to be true from Genesis.
	Now, the material that you're fooling with threatens to tell a different story than is told in Genesis, and I can tell you, for example, just from the Pope's recent statement regarding evolution, and what he said was, basically, that evolution is more than just a theory and there was a great disturbance that
	went rippling through Catholicism worldwide following that statement. If
	something came along that virtually challenged Genesis and Richard your material when you get right down
	to the bottom of it and and you cut through everything would challenge Genesis
	wouldn't it?
	Well I think it's a matter of interpretation because you know when you get into theological
	discussion the thing that comes to the fore is that no two people who read the Bible,
	no two scholars who study the Bible, no two church officials who make pronouncements on the Bible
	see it exactly alike.
	There are libraries filled with different interpretations of biblical material, Genesis notwithstanding.
	So the fact that I have a personal view and the culture and the world and science has another view
	of the same material.
	I mean, we have very sharp differences when I say we, I mean members of the human family, even now,
	without there being proof that the human race is not alone.
	There are, in fact, in ecclesiastical circles, in religious circles, discussions held every day
	about a whole series of other conscious entities, other beings besides human beings,
	ranging from, you know, angels to demons.
	The concept of the human race as a conscious group of beings, as a set of entities, is all by itself, is all alone.
	is in fact wrong.
	Religious tradition, religious history, religious teachings discuss a multitude of other consciousnesses in the universe besides humans.
	All right.
	So if in fact we find that there are other fallible mortal beings who have evolved on planets, remember the Pope's now saying evolution is more than a theory, other than the Earth, It really is not going to throw a huge monkey wrench into most people's perception of the relationship to church and God and country.
	It just won't.
	Perhaps not, Richard, but if this material leads to an understanding or a revelation that our creation, virtually our creation, was assisted, manipulated, Or originated by, other than what we view as a creator, I assure you, we've got trouble.
	Well, let me beg to differ with you.
	You may not.
	And the reason is, the reason is, that there's a very, very famous line that my grandmother was so used to quoting to me when we were growing up.
	You know, something about, and I'm hoping I remember this correctly, God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.
	Yes.
	The fact that we have been missing the details of the story, you know, as Paul Harvey would say, one of your colleagues, the fact that in Genesis, it isn't all of the story.
	I used to always, when I was growing up, wonder why there wasn't a technical supplement to Genesis.
	For some reason, I really wanted to know the details of what happened in those seven days.
	That's obviously why I went on into the sciences, because I like the details.
	If, in fact, as this drama unfolds, if we get new pictures that confirm, without screwy politics, that there are ruins on Mars, and there are structures on the Moon, and the Solar System has had extraordinary previous activity by intelligent beings, maybe us, maybe not us, to me, it only will add and enrich to the bare bones of the story that we have been given as to who we are and what we are all doing in this place.
	And the idea that truth can somehow conflict with truth, I find almost paradoxical and almost impossible.
	It's like, you know, believing six impossible things before breakfast.
	The fact that we would have details of who we are and how we got here.
	If you believe in God, if you believe in a Creator, then those details cannot fly in the face of truth, with a capital T. They simply can add to truth.
	It means we've been giving the Reader's Digest version of who we are as opposed to the full version.
	Well, it is a very liberal interpretation indeed to imagine that our creation was at the hands of a
	gray or a martian or a very ancient... But Art, you're buying the wisdom and the folklore and
	the stuff that's going on out there.
	You and I have not been here tonight.
	No, I'm not, Richard.
	Over the years, I have talked to so many people who are so... who interpret the Bible so literally that I understand there's a large body of people out there who don't have your ability to Except that which... No, but those people who interpreted that literally are not going to be fazed in the slightest by whatever we find in the solar system.
	It's like their minds are made up, please don't confuse me with truth.
	Well... Now, if there are people who are that narrow, they're perfectly safe.
	Nothing we find is going to change their perception and their relationship to their personal God, one iota.
	So, alright, if NASA has been manipulating images Uh, even destroying images to prevent us from knowing, uh, some of this for so long.
	Then, why are we to imagine they will suddenly open up and do it right?
	Isn't the real answer that if they've done it and they've been doing it since the story, for example, Ken just told us, they will continue to do it?
	Richard Hoagland's demo, uh, demonstration or not?
	Well, that would be one possible scenario.
	And my counter to that is that NASA is not a monolithic system.
	It seems clear to me now, in November of 1996, after we've gone through the remarkable summer, the August of 1996, with the press conference, and the announcement of the microfossil, and then the British corroboration, and all that, that we have entered somehow a different era.
	That what we are seeing in public is the tip of the iceberg of that which has been rumored for so long behind the scenes, Namely, an internal internecine war between what I'll call the Hangout crowd and the Keep It Forever Secret crowd.
	And our dear lady friend from JPL represents the latter.
	Obviously.
	She is trying to keep it secret and was terrified that people would see this poster, see these images, And would think impure thoughts.
	I mean, it was so clear.
	She reminded me of some teachers I had when I went to Catholic school, as a matter of fact.
	Some of my best friends are nuns, so I won't go down any further, but she had that uptight, you-can't-think-unthinkable-things-in-my-presence kind of attitude.
	Sure.
	And then there's the Hangout crowd, represented now by Carl Sagan, who in his book last December gave us a heads-up.
	Because he suddenly reversed course and he said, I could be wrong about the significance of Cydonia.
	And he strongly recommended in that chapter, The Face on Mars and the Man on the Moon, Chapter 3 of The Demon Haunted World, that the missions going back now, Mars Surveyor, Pathfinder, the Russian mission leaving in a few days, I think Friday, I think the Russian mission leaves Friday.
	Right, that's right.
	That they take better pictures.
	In fact, the Russian mission has better cameras than Mars Surveyor, if the truth were known.
	So what I think we're seeing is a kind of a conflict bubbling to the surface between the hangout crowd who basically are saying, enough of this, let's get on with it, and the holdout crowd who desperately want to keep things the way they are.
	But I don't think that if we get to the bottom of the politics, that the real driver of this is because of some secret fear on the part of NASA That we're going to find out that alien greys created the human species, alright?
	That's a folk tale.
	What I think we're going to find out is that if it turns out to be far more interesting and diverse, and there is a former vast set of civilizations that have preceded us in the solar system, and the current pinnacle of human achievement that we think of is this glittering place across the river called New York, is in fact a faded minor copy of much more glorious cities and activities that have gone
	and come and passed into extinction before, there's going to be an awful lot of bruised egos.
	And this is not about, you know, truth. It's about power. It's about the control and
	manipulation of other people by a few for reasons of control. And knowledge and information is the
	ultimate power. And I think what we're seeing is a power struggle between those that now want to
	democratize information, to continue the process that began with NASA's inception over 30 years
	ago, and those who, for whatever personal reasons, want to hold on to this power and make
	use of this knowledge for themselves.
	Richard, alright, Ken Johnston is kind of hoarse and probably pretty tired, and so I'd like Well, to some extent.
	Having a fairly good theological background as well, as you may have seen in my resume.
	let him go to bed. How about it Ken, do you generally agree with that assessment
	of what this incredible knowledge should it begin to break out, what effect it
	would have on our society? Well to some extent having a fairly good theological
	background as well as you may have seen in my resume, yes, there people are divided
	up as Richard has said in different camps.
	Those that are so dogmatic in their beliefs that it wouldn't make any difference if you were to have one of the, let's say, Canadian land in their front yard and come out there and claim it was a Hollywood stunt, and it wouldn't pay them to bet.
	They get quite upset that someone tried that, of course.
	I think I lean a little bit more towards you because there are still people in the Ozarks that claim that we never went to the moon, that it was all... Oh yes, I know.
	I think we would see a bit more of a conflict going on with that although there was a book that was just recently published that I wanted to get into later on in the program that That might challenge a lot of the established Judeo-Christian belief.
	All right, well, if you want to stay on, I'm perfectly happy to keep you on.
	I just thought you sounded kind of tired, and so I was going to give you an opportunity to bail if you want to.
	If you want to stay around, we're going to be here, and you're welcome to stick around.
	Well, let me ask, Roger, do you think that I need to stick around for the other part of this talk?
	Well, we have to complete the story of what we've presented at Brevard.
	I guess I better stick around, then.
	All right.
	You can't do it without me.
	You see, I do, apparently, we agree somewhat, Richard, Ken and I do, that I'm telling you right now, Richard, just take this as a working hypothesis.
	If something came down and some little guys walked out, there would be enough people who would regard these little guys wherever they were from.
	As devils, as agents from the devil, whatever, and they would take their shotguns down and fill them so full of lead, before any of you scientists... Wait, wait, wait.
	It's a far cry from little guys coming down to looking at ruins on a set of official pictures taken on another planet.
	Millions of miles away from your backyard.
	True.
	Ruins represent extinction.
	Yes.
	They represent someone who is no longer home.
	Yes.
	They're very, very, very safe.
	A ruin never attacked anybody.
	It's the knowledge that we are not alone that people seem to be threatened by.
	Mostly people in positions of authority and power and influence, not the rank and file.
	The rank and file gets on trains and goes 10,000 miles to find out.
	That's why I wanted Dana and Nick to talk to you tonight.
	Some of them do.
	Some of them call up talk shows and say, you're doing the devil's work, you're going straight to hell, and you're going to burn in hell for the rest of your life for what you're doing and what you're saying.
	It's heresy.
	Now there are, you've got to understand, there are those people out there, Richard.
	I hear from them all the time.
	I know what I'm talking about.
	Well, I'm not saying they don't exist.
	I'm saying that you don't predicate an entire culture based on the fearful minority who are fearful of any kind of change and are threatened by, you know, an expanding, evolving, realistic portrayal of who we are, where we have come from, and where we are going.
	All right.
	Hold it right there and we'll be right back to you.
	We're going to take a break here at the top of the hour.
	My guests are Richard C. Hoagland, ...in Manhattan and Ken Johnston in the Seattle area.
	I'm Art Bell and this is the CBC Radio Network.
	You've had that night of the third.
	I asked him to basically put down in a succinct form, a four-page paper, why this incredible coincidence of Apollo 11 landing in homage to Osiris and Isis could not And can never have been simply a happy coincidence, an accident, which he did, with great references and great detail.
	What we then went on to find, and what we laid out at the Cape last Sunday night, was, you know, example after example after example, going from the original Apollo 8 circumlunar mission in December of 1968, the so-called Christmas mission, where I first joined Cronkite, To Apollo 10, which was the precursor mission, the one that's given us some of this remarkable photography over Sinus Medi that we've talked about on your show many, many times.
	Sure.
	And I showed it at Ohio State.
	Through Apollo 11, of course.
	Apollo 12, the landing south of the crater Copernicus.
	Apollo 13, which was launched at 1313, and whose accident took place on the 13th.
	Uh, which was codenamed, um, um, uh, Aquarius and Odyssey.
	That was the, the call signs for the spacecraft.
	And, uh, whose patch signified a, uh, uh, flying horse, or three flying horses, Pegasus.
	Which, if you know your mythology, is really a code for Horus.
	The four Horus, the four sons of Horus.
	Which are, of course, are connected.
	Horus was the son of Osiris.
	And Isis, i.e.
	Orion.
	And when Apollo 13 was originally designed to go to the moon, Horus, i.e.
	Pegasus, was located precisely on the lunar horizon of its projected landing site at the time it was supposed to land before the accident.
	And then Apollo 14, which had Leo precisely on the horizon, which of course is the Sphinx in Egypt at the base of the pyramids.
	And then Apollo 15, and 16, and 17.
	Apollo 16, for instance, whose lunar module was called Orion.
	Did you know that, Art?
	Uh, no I didn't.
	And on each of the Apollo missions, the lunar module was deliberately destroyed by NASA radio command.
	What they would do when the astronauts came back to the command module, is they would disconnect the command module and the lunar module, ascent stage, And then by radio command from Earth, they would direct the lunar module to de-orbit, to burn its rocket engines briefly, and then plop it back down on the moon's surface to cause a shockwave, which would then be used to trigger the seismometers to measure moonquakes, to basically give a kind of a CAT scan of the upper portions of the moon.
	Right.
	Every lunar module had that happen to it, except for one.
	And that one was the ascent stage of the Apollo 16 lunar module, which was called Orion.
	And we flew to the moon under the banner of Isis, Osiris, and Orion.
	It's the official pact.
	So, we laid out at Brevard, over and over and over and over again, this incredible cavalcade of specific instances where, when they would land, when they would leave, when they would begin their EVAs, when they would get back in, These constellations, these stars, this configuration, which is the heart and soul of ancient Egyptian religious cosmology, would be seen in specific geometrical configuration on the horizon, at the meridian, at the descent horizon, or at the key 19.5 degrees above one or both of the lunar horizons, over and over and over and over again.
	And it finally got to where one of our audience, not Nick and Dana, but somebody else, a guy named Chris Rizzo, posted on the Enterprise Mission website a couple days ago a very heartfelt and simple but totally honest layout of what Ken and I presented that night on November 3rd, and then his personal reaction to what we had laid out.
	And I was extremely pleased to see that Mr. Rizzo used the term proof.
	In his own synopsis, he said that we, Ken and I, had proven beyond any reasonable doubt that NASA has lied to us over and over again about the real meaning and layout of the space program, in particular the Apollo program, and its connections heretofore totally unspoken and totally hidden.
	All right, well, what part of this, Richard, did Ken play in laying it out?
	Aha!
	Because the tour de force, the pièce de résistance, of course, is what are they really up to?
	By the way, intrinsically to the work of Hancock and Boval and many other researchers who are now looking and writing And discussing at conferences all around the continent and the world the fact that it's beginning to seriously look as if we are not the first, that we are heir to a prior, very sophisticated, global, and perhaps solar system-wide civilization that came to an abrupt and tragic and shocking, catastrophic end, at least on this planet, circa 13,000 years ago.
	Which is referred to in the ancient Egyptian text, the so-called pyramid text, as the Zep Tepi, the first time.
	It's referred to in the Platonic material that comes down to us, by way of Greece, from the Egyptian priests, one in particular, a gentleman named Solon, by that fabled mythological name, i.e.
	Atlantis.
	The first time the prior high civilization could be codenamed Atlantis.
	Now we all thought, at least those of us who ever thought about this, that Atlantis maybe was one point, one place, one civilization in very remote time, if it existed at all.
	And it was supposed to be localized to a set of islands that sank overnight in some catastrophe somewhere beyond the Pillars of Hercules.
	That's the way it came to us by way of Plato and his Egyptian connections, right?
	It's now beginning to look as if Atlantis is like a codename for an entire incredible planet-wide, or if not larger, culture which somehow vanished in a brief period of time and all we have left from that epic 13,000 years ago are a few bits and pieces of reconstruction of myth and legend and folktale to try to assemble what that other history might have been like And maybe, just maybe, we've got a set of ruins out there in the solar system where we can go to someday and find real libraries and real data and real clues.
	Maybe that's a reason why the guys in power don't want us to know any of this stuff because it might upset our perception of who we are and how old we are and where we have come from, as we said before.
	Well, what Ken was able to do is now, with his background and his expertise and his avocation As a participant and a functioning member in good standing of a brotherhood dedicated to enlightenment and to expanding the consciousness of homo sapiens.
	It turns out that the brotherhood to which Ken, apart from being a NASA engineer and his other activities, belongs to, appears to be part of a tradition that also traces its human side back through ancient Egypt.
	And it is called the Free Masonic Tradition, or Free Masonry.
	Ken is a, what, 32nd degree Mason, right?
	I'm right, that's correct.
	Are you now, Ken?
	Yes, I am.
	Uh-huh!
	And it looks as if, and that's what Ken provided at Brevard and will do across the break, the evidence that some of the people involved in planning this incredible Apollo Tableau, and not telling us, seem to be, in fact, members of the Brotherhood of Masons.
	Alright, I'll hold it right there, gentlemen.
	Also, if anybody saw the CNN piece that aired about 12.05 Central Time on Richard Hoagland, I would appreciate a fax outlining exactly what they said.
	My fax number is 702-727-8499.
	We'll be right back with the Brotherhood.
	We have made a stunning major political breakthrough.
	Is that we now can discuss things that are not interpretive.
	They don't require a scientific discipline.
	They don't require the ability to see structures on the Moon or on Mars or wherever.
	I understand where you're going and why you're going, yes.
	Yeah.
	What we now have is an unequivocal, undebatable set of historical reference points, i.e.
	when we landed various places.
	We have an undeniable roster of people who participated in these events.
	We have a pattern to these events, which is straight out of the most ancient traditions on this planet, i.e.
	ancient Egypt.
	And we have a brotherhood of identified fraternal members, orders, people who are, you know, in the family, so to speak, who are identified as belonging to an organization.
	That has maintained these Egyptian traditions going back, as Ken said now, the current research extends it back to the so-called sons or followers of Paurus themselves.
	We've got all the pieces of the puzzle and we now know that people like Buzz Aldrin was and is a 32nd degree Mason.
	That he was frenetic about losing his Masonic ring before his flight.
	We know in his own words he conducted a ceremony 33 minutes after landing while Isis, i.e.
	Osiris, was 19.5 degrees above the eastern horizon to someone or something there in the lunar module with Neil Armstrong on the moon.
	We know he took the flag of the... what is it?
	Southern... give me the title, Kathleen.
	Right, it's the Supreme Council of the...
	33rd degree of the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States of America.
	He took this flag to the moon, and when he came home, he presented it in a very visible ceremony to the, you know, hierarchy of this Grand Council in Washington at the Temple, and we have the photographs, and we put them out at Brevard, and we're going to put them up on the website, so the net is drawing tighter and tighter and tighter.
	We now know that Kennedy's hand-picked head of the entire space program, James Webb, was a Mason.
	We know that the key person who runs through this entire program, from the dawn of the NASA program to its culmination when he retired a few years ago, you know, in terms of his own career, was the brother of the gentleman to which Ken just referred who was basically the grand sovereign of the world in terms of Freemasonry on this planet.
	His brother ran the Mercury Program, was a key participant in the Gemini Program, and Ken, what was his role in the Apollo Program?
	He was the director of the Apollo Command and Service Module portion of the program.
	It's like all they wrote, Art.
	We've got them, and we've got them good.
	The question now is, and this is a critical question for the country to think about tonight, is this a bad thing or a good thing?
	My interpretation, alright, is that it is a good thing.
	And it went wrong.
	It went south.
	When John Fitzgerald Kennedy was murdered, the plan that he and the people around him had set in motion To basically create this incredible enterprise, which he called the Enterprise.
	And to go to the moon and retrieve something of an estimable value to the enlightenment and uplifting of the whole human condition and every American.
	That grand vision got sacrificed and stolen when John Fitzgerald Kennedy was murdered.
	And something else took its place.
	And the people in the system, Who were Mason, people like Buzz Aldrin, who were participating, did not realize that their own dream had been stolen.
	That their own participation in this grand plan had been subverted, had been sabotaged, had been taken over by a palace coup, by something else.
	And I think in response to the fax that I just got that was sent to you, by the way your fax machine is ringing, And there's no response, I'm told.
	Mr. Reed from Santa Cruz says, uh, can you ask your guest, this is directed to you, Art, this is a good question.
	There is dissension among the astronauts on the questions we are discussing.
	Yes.
	From Apollo photographs to NASA decisions.
	What's your explanation?
	Thanks, Art.
	Sincerely, Charles Reed.
	Right.
	Well, my explanation is that, you know, everybody from Neil Armstrong on down has finally, after 30 years, figured out that they got took, that they were taken over, that there
	was a palace coup, and the masters who they thought they were serving in
	enlightenment, who were telling them, it's not time yet, it's not time,
	they're not ready, but there will be time.
	Do you think that accounts for some of the curious statements made by a lot of the astronauts?
	Yes.
	Particularly Neil Armstrong.
	Yes.
	That seem designed to poke us and say, hey, you know, there's stuff I wish I could tell you,
	wondrous things out there that I, that eventually you will find out about.
	Well, Neil Armstrong's classic, and I actually ran the tape at Brevard, his classic comments at the White House two years ago at the 25th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing on July 20th.
	The Osiris Resurrection date of 1969.
	Neil Armstrong started out his speech in the East Room of the White House comparing himself and all the other astronauts to parrots.
	What do parrots do, Art?
	They basically tell you what other people tell them to say.
	That's right.
	They mimic, they repeat.
	Yes.
	And then he closed his speech with the most remarkable phraseology.
	He said to the students there, he said there are Breakthroughs to be had for those who can remove one of truth's protective layers.
	Layers, layers.
	There are places to go beyond belief.
	This is a man who walked on the moon, the first American to walk on the moon.
	Now what you need to know about Neil Armstrong is there's a lot of rumors out there that Neil Armstrong is a mason.
	Ken Johnston has been able to ascertain through his sources and his scholarship Unequivocally, that Neil Armstrong is not, I repeat, not a Mason.
	But this is where the story gets really interesting, because Neil Armstrong, when he came home, was offered... Well, Ken, you pick up the story.
	Okay.
	Neil Armstrong Jr.
	is not a Mason.
	The Grand Lodge of Ohio put together an award, a presentation for contributions that They award masons for good service and they were prepared
	to present him with that and he declined it and wanted to have nothing to do with it.
	My research dug a little further and found out that Neil Armstrong Sr. is a 32nd degree mason.
	I think he's a 33rd degree mason.
	Oh my.
	Now this is really weird because you come home lauded as the human species heroes of note.
	The president, President Nixon, sends you around the world as goodwill ambassadors.
	You are wined and dined by princes and kings and princesses and the commoners and you have ticker tape parades down
	every major city and every kingdom on this planet.
	You get home to Ohio, where your father has been a member of this fraternal order in good standing.
	This local community group wants to give you an award, and you turn them down?
	Isn't this interesting?
	It is interesting.
	Listen, Richard, we're near the top of the hour, and so I need to determine if we want to hold Ken on or let the poor fellow go to bed here.
	Your choice, collector.
	Got any wrap-up thoughts, Ken?
	Well, only to say that, as I said in the beginning, that the Masons have always worked to enlighten mankind and to hang on to the information, and as Richard was pointing out, that we really convinced and believe that All right, let's hope so.
	Ken, thank you, my friend, and get some sleep.
	I will do it.
	All right.
	Take care.
	We'll be right back with Richard C. Hoagland.
	as a plateau and it would be made public. Now we think they got thwarted, although I'm now of the
	belief that I think we've taken it back over again and the good guys are in charge again. Let's hope
	so. All right, let's hope so. Ken, thank you my friend and get some sleep. I will do it. All right,
	thank you. Take care. We'll be right back with Richard C.
	Hoagland. I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
	That we were going to do at Cape Canaveral a couple, three weeks ago and I got this remarkable
	letter from the deputy commander of the lodge not only acknowledging this research but really in a
	very nice way asking us to come back and tell them what else we find out.
	And the reason is that 99.99% of the Masons in this country and around the world don't know what we now know.
	Because the whole Masonic tradition has become a filtering process to find a favorite few that those behind the scenes can then endow with this so-called secret knowledge and be trusted to carry on some thing.
	It's a social culture which is 99% totally banal, not even benign.
	It has nothing to do with anything other than a nice social situation.
	The fact is that this system was corrupted.
	It was it was contravened.
	It was sabotaged by something else.
	We don't yet know what that something else is.
	We're going to know.
	But Richard, if what you imagine is true.
	Yes.
	All right.
	There was priceless information which we were supposed to go to the moon and retrieve.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	And it got sidetracked.
	That's right.
	If what you imagine is true, then these are closely ...held secrets.
	And so if what you're saying is true, you've got to imagine that people would go some distance to see to it that people like you don't tamper with these basic forces.
	Yeah, but there are lots of people like me.
	Remember, I am not talking to how many million people are.
	There's not a lot of Richard Kogut.
	Yes, there are.
	No, there aren't.
	Yes, there are.
	Well... Yes, there are.
	All I have done is be stubborn and taurean and follow the road to the truth.
	Okay.
	I just happen to be a little more stubborn than a lot of other people, but once you show people the way, Art, and we've now shown them the way, we've shown them all the things that need to be done and where the truth lies, there's a lot of folks out there, I'm getting faxes and phone calls every day, stunning pieces of the puzzle, people who are sending us data, people who are putting it together, people who are listening to you, people who are following me on CNN or on AP or Reuters or whatever, this genie is so far out of the bottle that I don't think she can ever go home.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Where are you, please?
	Hi.
	I'm in Amboy, Illinois.
	Yes, sir.
	Yes.
	I'd like to say to Richard is, first of all, I'm a part of the Christian Coalition.
	I get their literature.
	We are not against any exploration or any new discovery whatsoever.
	As a Christian, I myself believe that I'm not the only one in the universe.
	There could be civilizations all over.
	Show us the proof.
	Don't sit here and use the argument that there's a conspiracy going on to try to thwart new discovery and that it's the Christians.
	You've got Jesse Jackson out there who is trying to defund NASA because we've spent billions going after something that we don't have yet.
	We don't have a return.
	I mean, hang on a second.
	I never said the Christian Coalition.
	You mentioned the Christian Coalition.
	You said that there's groups out there that don't want to know what's going on.
	Caller, let us be clear that a columnist in Los Angeles is trying to fax to art.
	No, he's correct, Caller.
	That was from a columnist in Los Angeles.
	I've got it right here.
	And Richard did, to some degree, agree With his position.
	He said he's got a good point, but the comment came from the columnist.
	Okay, so here's my question, then, is this.
	You tell me who, and if you agree with that, you tell me who in the Christian Coalition, like Ralph Reed or Pat Robertson, which one of them, and they're our spokesmen... Well, actually, it was Pat Robertson.
	And what did he say?
	When I was in Whistville, Virginia, Some years ago, right after Monuments, my book was first published, a number of press people wanted to interview me.
	A very bright reporter and producer for CBN, the Christian Broadcasting Network, brought a crew and came down to the farm where I was living in Whistville and spent two days doing a very, very good piece.
	Probably the best piece that we had done on us, in terms of network television, was done at that point by CBN.
	They went back and they put it on the air.
	And I invited this reporter to come to Goddard, because I had, while he was there at the farm, we literally got the call from NASA, from the Goddard Space Flight Center, for me to come and do the first of this series of official NASA briefings in December of 1988.
	That call came in when Pat Robertson's own director and reporter was there doing a story on our work.
	Okay.
	Robertson, let me finish the story here.
	Robertson, when he found out about this, According to this reporter, he was so freaked out and so upset that he forbid his own reporter and director to come and cover us at Goddard, and the man has not talked to me since.
	You make my point.
	Now wait, let me say this.
	This is all conjecture.
	No, it isn't!
	It's not conjecture!
	You asked me for names, I gave you very specific, first-person experience, and you're rejecting it.
	No, because you have no proof.
	This is just hearsay.
	No, it's not hearsay.
	It's not hearsay.
	I have the tape of the first interview.
	They've never come and done a follow-up story on us.
	Pat Robertson has passed around memos saying that we will never darken their door again.
	This reporter was forbidden from coming to Goddard to NASA to cover our presentation there.
	Now, this is one individual.
	I'm not saying that Pat Robertson speaks for Christians.
	I'm just saying that Pat Robertson, as an influential person who ran for president, Has a political perspective, which may or may not be theologically influenced, and he doesn't like this data.
	Wait a minute.
	Let me speak for myself then, as a born-again Christian.
	Well, that's different.
	Okay.
	I am not afraid of any discovery that you supposedly have.
	You come on this program.
	You come with conjecture, as even Art has said.
	I want the evidence.
	I'm not afraid.
	I'm not living in 1500s or the 1400s where we thought we were the center of the universe and then the sun revolved around us.
	I'm not afraid to know what you consider to be the truth.
	Good, and I'm very glad you are.
	Let me ask you a couple of questions.
	Have you read Monuments?
	I have read Monuments, but let me ask you this question.
	Why don't you come on this program with something more than conjecture, some proof?
	You're out there in the wind, coming with all this, whatever you want to call it, theory, these conspiracy issues about Kennedy and stuff, that he's gone because he may have had the truth or been onto it.
	Come on!
	His father was a bootlegger who was involved in illegal transportation of alcohol, and he built an empire that was based on corruption, and is that what you're trying to say the Masonry movement is about?
	I didn't say that.
	Well, you said that Kennedy disappeared because he was on to something.
	He was on to the great discovery and he was trying to rebuild what was lost in ancient Egypt.
	Have you been following the details of what we've been laying out?
	Yeah, I have been, but you're giving me no proof.
	Well, I don't think so, because it doesn't sound to me like you understand this incredibly interesting pattern we have discovered.
	You've been all over the map.
	You have not given us anything more than your conjecture and just trust.
	I mean, give us proof!
	I'm not afraid of it!
	Well, would you recognize proof if you see it?
	Apparently you don't.
	What proof have you given me tonight, Art?
	You know, this is worth doing.
	Let's deal... We're at about a break point here.
	What I would like to do is deal with specifics.
	Now, Richard has laid out specifics, and caller, can you possibly get off that portable phone and get on a real phone?
	Yeah, I will.
	Alright, then what we'll do is take a break, and when we get back, let's deal with specifics.
	How would that be?
	Everybody agree?
	Sure, I'd like to.
	Alright.
	All right, good.
	We will do exactly that, then.
	Everybody, hold on right where you are.
	You're listening to the CBC Radio Network, the American CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell, and if you'll stay put, we'll be right back.
	People have been doing things that they're not telling us about.
	Then all bets are off.
	And everything they say... You're trying to make this huge leap from the fact that Obviously I agree, there are things that the general public is not privy to.
	But that doesn't mean that because we're not told everything, you make this huge leap as to what it is that we're not being told.
	Alright, let me stop you.
	There's no solid evidence for that leap.
	Caller, Caller, hold on for a second.
	Respond to what Ken Johnston said.
	He was a guy on the inside.
	Here's a guy who had film changed on him.
	A film showing an anomaly suddenly gone.
	He had orders to destroy photographs.
	How do you respond to that?
	I wanted to respond to that, destroying of the photographs.
	You guys, you had a big misunderstanding about that.
	is that he was told to destroy the extraneous copies of photographs.
	He said he kept the master set of copies, and all the ones that were working copies that were no longer needed, he was told to destroy.
	Now, what's wrong with that?
	That's perfectly natural for anybody.
	Well, I'm not going to put you in touch with any library.
	All right.
	No, that's not perfectly natural, and what occurred is not at all perfect.
	I don't know where he came up with that.
	First Time Caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Yeah Bart, would it be alright to mention a book?
	You mention a book?
	Yeah, it's called The Wars of Gods and Men by Zachariah Stitchen.
	Oh, I know Zachariah, I've interviewed him.
	Part of his Earth Chronicles series.
	That's a very good book and he's one of only 200 people that can translate the Sumerian text and they have a very good Alright, well I guess that sort of follows where you're going at the moment, Richard.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi, I'd just like to make a comment.
	Sure.
	I do believe that there was a higher advanced civilization prior to the flood that's mentioned in the Bible, that they were destroyed because they were the original world herder.
	And that there's a new world order that's attempting to present itself.
	Now... Let me stop you there, alright?
	Okay.
	If you read the Egyptian texts, you know, this stuff is written down.
	Scholars have decoded this.
	You know, the hieroglyphs are no longer a mystery.
	We can actually read Egyptian.
	If you read the pyramid texts, if you read some of these earlier translations, the honest ones a hundred years ago, What you find is that the so-called sons of Horus, or the followers of Horus, believed that they were endowed and trusted by God, by Osiris, to reconstruct, to reconstitute, to rebuild a civilization as rich and as astonishing as the original
	From the Zeptepi, from the first time, from the catastrophe, from, in some versions, a flood.
	Right.
	All we're saying is that if you have a brotherhood believing in these traditions, and they are in the late 20th century, and they have the ability to assemble a technology that can go off planet and go to the moon and find archives of knowledge that has not been ours for a very long time, It seems logical to say it's part of this longer tradition.
	And in fact, that's what the intended purpose of this whole exercise apparently was, until it got sidetracked.
	And instead of making this knowledge available to the world and to mankind, a few people, a handful of people, have kept it for themselves, and kept us all in the dark, who ultimately paid for the missions.
	Right, I see all of that.
	The problem I have is that According to the Bible, the Egyptian processes and the Egyptian mythology is all an apostate version of the original priesthood as it was presented by God.
	Now, I can see that that's been perverted by some people, by a few who are trying to gain power.
	I don't know what the direction is with that, but I can see that either way that knowledge can be detrimental.
	Uh-huh.
	If it's hidden from the populace.
	Yeah, because any knowledge which is hidden can then be used or misused in secrecy.
	Right.
	And I think that's what we are backtracking.
	Now when people say we don't have proof, what we're finding in these documents, in these mission plans, the latitudes, longitudes, locations, the times of the landing, is this incredible ritualistic refrain of Isis, Osiris, et al.
	The fact that we flew there under that banner with that patch is the emblem of the mission.
	The fact that the brotherhood in our midst, the fraternity that preserves this knowledge in its most pristine form, has identifiable members who were appointed to run and control and manage and direct every facet of the American space program.
	I'm not quite sure why people say we don't have proof.
	We have enough proof here to get a grand jury indictment if I were to present this in a court of law.
	Because you have means, motive, and opportunity.
	You got all three.
	Richard, all I'm trying to tell you in a kindly way is you're beginning to step on some toes.
	Who cares?
	Well, I know.
	I don't.
	I understand.
	I'm after the truth.
	I understand.
	West of the Rockies.
	And I'm not alone.
	West of the Rockies.
	You're not alone now.
	You're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	How you doing Art?
	Okay, where are you?
	I'm in Phoenix, Arizona.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I want to agree with Hoagland.
	I believe that The government does hide things that they think, or edit material that they don't want common people to know.
	But on another topic... Let me stop you there.
	Under a constitutional republic, are you willing to stand for that?
	No.
	I don't feel that they should hide any information or edit material that is other than the truth.
	I think that we need to decide.
	on that.
	But you can't decide unless you know it, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	What we are trying to do in this process is to unravel the skeins and the threads of deception.
	There has been one heck of a grand deception going on here for over a generation.
	And get at the truth, whatever the truth is.
	We have bits and pieces of it, but we certainly don't have the complete picture yet.
	But we will.
	If we continue this process with a little help from our friends, we will.
	Yeah, and I'm looking forward to looking at the material on the Enterprise, and can't wait to see that.
	It will be probably posted by peace-willing tomorrow night.
	Alrighty.
	Alright, good.
	Tomorrow night, huh?
	What actually is going to be up there, Richard?
	We have a very careful narrative linking all of the material up through the first landing with source documentation.
	The books, the memos, the flight plans, The emblematic material, the celestial patterns, it will all be there.
	And there'll be additional material in the libraries, you know, to back up what's going to be in this one continuous narrative with a lot of illustrations.
	Because the web is very visual.
	Yes, it is.
	I would like to urge everybody to take a look at the Apollo patch.
	That is still up there now, isn't it?
	Yes, it is.
	All right.
	They really need to see that.
	That's an aha moment when you sit and study that patch.
	And by the way, I got a fax from somebody who said they actually have a physical Copy of that patch that they've held on to all these years.
	Oh my gosh.
	Oh yes.
	Very quickly, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi, Howard.
	This is Carlson, Minneapolis.
	From Minneapolis, yes.
	How are you doing?
	Fine.
	And Mr. Hoagland, it's a pleasure to talk to you.
	I bought your tape, Monuments of Mars, some time ago.
	Richard, book?
	Yes.
	I'm wondering, you say we went to the moon to gain knowledge.
	Are you, by any chance, obliquely referring to Well, that is such a good question, and I'm not going to let Richard answer it until we get back from the break.
	It is really, really a good question.
	is a pre-mason. Some of the things you said remind me early in 2001 and the astronauts
	going to Mars to find that monolith and so on and so on.
	Oh, that is such a good question and I'm not going to let Richard answer it until we get
	back from the break. It is really, really a good question.
	I wonder if Arthur C. Clarke is a mason. We'll find out.
	Alright everybody, in some markets we'll break away now, other markets will continue.
	You've been listening to Richard C. Hoagland and earlier Ken Johnston as guests, and this
	is pretty dramatic stuff.
	I didn't hear that, man.
	I've been in the car for about an hour.
	I see.
	But if Mr. Hoagland would like to become a Mason, and he can pass the character investigation
	to become one, it's very, very simple.
	What about it, Mr. Hoagland?
	Do you aspire to become a Mason?
	No.
	Because most Masons don't know what we've already figured out.
	Otherwise, why would they invite us to come and tell them what we found?
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Oh, hello Art Bell.
	This is Evelyn from Durham with the proud owner of 20 Cats.
	Durham, North Carolina?
	Durham, California.
	Oh, California.
	I'm sorry.
	What's the luckiest out of the lot?
	Alright, go ahead.
	Okay, well, I have two points I wanted to make.
	The first one was, I haven't gone to church lately because I'm bothered by the doctrine of the churches, but I used to be pretty sentimental, go three times a week and all.
	But, you know, there's a verse in John that says, other sheep have I which are not of this flock.
	That very well could mean aliens.
	My other point was, everyone keeps talking about evolution and the seven day theory, but in Peter we read that to the Lord a thousand years ago... Alright, listen there, let us not get into Bible quoting.
	Oh no, I'm not quoting, I'm just saying that time is... Actually you were though.
	Time is endless.
	Alright, time is endless, thank you.
	Um, first time caller line, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	This is Joanne from California.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	Um, I... Turn your radio off, please.
	Okay, it's off.
	Good.
	Um, I just want to say that I am a conservative, uh, fundamental Christian, uh, but I just want to encourage Mr. Hoagland.
	I think it's wonderful what he's doing, as long as he's seeking the truth and wanting to find the truth that Anyone that is a real true Christian would want to back him.
	That's what I said on CBN.
	Good enough.
	And even having said that on CBN, Richard, they still didn't want to air it?
	Well, no.
	I don't know actually whether the piece ever ran.
	I have a copy of the tape.
	I know the piece that the reporter produced.
	In fact, let me correct that.
	I do know that it ran.
	I know that after Robertson saw it, that's when his displeasure was exemplified.
	I see.
	And that's when he said, no more.
	Exactly.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Going once, twice, gone.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hello.
	Yes, Art Bell.
	Yes.
	I have a question for Richard.
	Sure.
	You barely talked about it, but I guess this is on Dreamland with Dr. Delacroix.
	Uh, I mentioned possibly something about, um... Oh, this is Chris calling from Arlington Park, KDC.
	I'm sorry.
	Um, was it, uh, that possibly Clinton might come out of the area saying something about, you know, UFOs and some kind of knowledge like that?
	All right, well, that is reference to a program we're going to be doing on Thursday night, Friday morning, sir, with Dr. Courtney Brown.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hoagland.
	Hi.
	I agree with Mr. Hoaglander.
	I agree with Mr. Hoaglander because I had an uncle who was a mason long before he died
	here a couple of years ago and he didn't go along with a lot of the stuff that they did.
	And it's a lot of secrecy involved in that.
	And I agree with Mr. Hogan on everything he's saying.
	Plus, I have been to the Pyramid and the Sphinx and all that back in 1985.
	And I got to go inside the chambers himself.
	All right, well, I don't think anybody here is trying to actually bash Masons.
	And I don't think that's Richard's intent at all.
	And so don't sort of join in.
	In a sort of agreement with Basham, because that's not what's going on.
	The previous scholar, who kind of snippily seemed to be challenging me in terms of my position on Masonry, obviously has not listened.
	Well, obviously.
	Because what I'm saying is that the Masonic tradition... Remember, the United States of America was founded by Masons.
	Richard, you've got to remember that people uh... on the radio in the middle of the night have to hear
	things and uh... take them many times
	the wrong way or leap on them to forward their own agenda of dislike if you are a
	real american meaning someone who believes and equality of opportunity
	freedom of inquiry the bill of rights
	the constitution kind of hold a soft spot in your heart for thomas jefferson
	and all those guys sure
	you are extolling in public what the masonic tradition in private
	is teaching Thank you.
	What is interesting is that Kennedy apparently was seeking to extend that identical philosophy and protocol as part of a technological outreach program to our nearest planetary neighbor to bring back information That could expand this concept of a democratic republic under law, under God.
	And something happened.
	And what we're trying to figure out, since it's clear now that that was the intent, and the participants are all part of the Brotherhood who made this incredible miracle take place and happen.
	We've got to figure out what went wrong.
	We have to make it go right again.
	And the only way that's going to happen is if a lot of people in this country get involved and demand to know the truth.
	Good enough.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard C. Hovland.
	Hi.
	Hi, Art and Richard.
	Steve from South Dakota.
	Hi, Steve.
	How are you doing?
	I loved your cartoon.
	Oh, you did?
	Susan Carabin, by the way, for those people who wonder what Susan's last name is, is the editor of the journal.
	She wants to know if you can send us a pristine copy so we can reproduce it.
	I certainly will.
	Steve is an artist and a cartoonist and he did the most hysterical parody of our presentations at the Cape Art.
	You have to fax a copy to Art Bell.
	Okay, thank you.
	I'm sure you feel fine tonight, Richard, but I'd like to give you a stroke and I'm sure I don't speak for me.
	I'd like to make a comment first because I believe that Dana's spirit reflects how a lot of friends of mine and myself were pulled in about three years ago to all of this data.
	And how we all discovered how one data point connects to another.
	Now with me, I went to Stan McDaniel, Horace Trader, Hancock, Urgevec, and I've been working with Richard for a little while.
	And the more one absorbs and follows up and spreads the word about how all of this data that Richard and his colleagues speaks of, we see how it converges.
	And the more one is pulled into the inevitability and the truth of taking back what's ours, it's just really very profound.
	We're in a position to redefine the history of our planet.
	All of this knowledge has the capacity to transform all of us in a very positive way if it's acknowledged.
	So why should we be afraid?
	In my opinion, there's a fine line between anger and fear.
	Yes, there is.
	Yes, there is.
	And one generally generates the other.
	Thank you, my friend.
	Richard, hold tight.
	We'll be right back.
	You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
	I'm Art Bell.
	And we'll go into the stretch run here in just a moment.
	Stay right there.
	This caller is a fun one. I think she's in fact got a pretty good head on her shoulders.
	And she understands that there are connections between Christian tradition and the Christian world.
	As opposed to belief, alright?
	Christian tradition takes a lot of the trappings from the much more ancient systems, including the Egyptian.
	Because Horus, in fact, is Christ in the tradition.
	And Isis is Mary.
	And there are statues, which if you didn't know that it was Isis holding Horus, you would think it was Mary holding Jesus Christ.
	And yet they're separated, we believe, by thousands of years.
	How do you explain that?
	The answer is that our traditions have been bought and borrowed and paid for and assembled like a patchwork quilt by political compromise and political fiat, among others, Constantine, who borrowed politically heavily from Eastern and West and put together a kind of a millage for a political purpose Around the time of the Council of Nicaea.
	So when Christians start quoting scripture and telling me that what we're looking at is opposed to the Bible or opposed to this or whatever that, those people have not done their homework and understand how deeply their own traditions are rooted in these much more ancient systems of belief.
	It's much more interesting and important than most people give I don't know what NASA's agenda is.
	All I know is the pattern of what they have done, which is to conceal.
	But NASA's agenda is to conceal this world leader that is about to come on the world.
	There is a world leader.
	Madam, I don't know what NASA's agenda is.
	All I know is the pattern of what they have done, which is to conceal.
	What they're concealing I don't think is a person.
	I think it is a process and a set of discoveries and a knowledge base
	that if we were to all know about it and implement it, would change things for the better.
	All right.
	Well, that's where your difference is, and you can see where she's coming from with her perspective.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	It's a pleasure to listen to Richard Hoagland for five hours.
	I could listen to him every night.
	Where are you, sir?
	Tulsa, Oklahoma.
	All right.
	I have friends in Tulsa.
	I read your book early on and bought about a half a dozen copies for family and friends.
	I wrote the first-hand book on the Atlas Missile Flight Control System and the acceptance test procedures for the Lunar Excursion Module Doppler Velocity Sensors, so I've touched the aerospace program.
	And I don't mean to take the Christian call as on ad hominem, but to me it's like a perfect I have a question.
	Don't you think, from a totally practical point of view, that NASA has concealed their agenda simply because they're afraid of losing their money?
	Their funding?
	That could be part of it.
	Alright.
	But, see, if you go to the American people and ask for money to find unbelievable things, and then you find them, and you don't tell them, I mean, I have done in various speeches I've given, even before I got into this business of looking at possible artifacts, when I was straight, I was able to draw curves and show that the public support for NASA went monotonically down from 1965 forward for the simple reason
	That NASA went to the American people and said, we're going to find life out there.
	And when it didn't find life, politically, their support waned and waned and waned and withered.
	When I was standing there at the Cape with John Zarello on my right and somebody from AP on my left, and I'm listening to all their pieces and watching them on TV, the refrain of every single one of those correspondents into their television cameras out to the American people was, this is a mission to search for life on Mars.
	NASA has gone to us again, and in the most hypocritical fashion is picking our pocket to search for life.
	It knows it's got the proof.
	It's hiding the proof, and it's lying through its teeth politically, and that's what I can't abide.
	Can I ask you one more question?
	Sure.
	Somewhat aside, I haven't been to New York City in 45 years, but I was born and raised there.
	What are you doing there?
	Why would you live there?
	Well, I don't live in New York.
	I live overlooking New York.
	And the main reason is it's the communications capital of the world.
	If you want to communicate, this is the place to do it.
	Well, that's true.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland, not a lot of time.
	Hi.
	Hello, I got four quick questions for Richard.
	All right, where are you?
	I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska.
	Fairbanks, wow.
	All right, go ahead.
	The question is this.
	I just recently saw your moon videos, and you said that if you take two equilateral triangles and intersect them, three-dimensional equilateral triangles, you'll get three-dimensional star David.
	Yep.
	Now you rotate that in the sphere, it'll intersect the sphere at 19.5 degrees north and south latitude.
	That's right.
	My questions are these.
	What is the energy?
	How do you measure it?
	Can you change it into electricity?
	And can you use it to generate a gravity field?
	The answer is yes to all of the above.
	How do you measure it though?
	That's one thing I want to know.
	Well, alright.
	It is what I call matrix specific.
	Depending upon the physical system, That this process is generated in.
	It is what I call matrix-specific.
	Depending upon the physical system that this process is generated in.
	In other words, if it's a mechanical system, you'll get additional angular momentum.
	If it's an electrical system, you'll get an increased voltage.
	If it's a fluid flow, you'll get increased fluidity.
	Ah, so I can electrify the system and get an increase in electricity.
	Well, that's the voltage.
	That's where the end machine and some of the rotating systems, you know, that De Palma has been working with come in.
	That's what I've been thinking about doing is building it using a sphere and using a powerful motor to rotate it.
	And if I do that, I can generate a gravity field to surround it.
	Well, the gravity aspects are much more complicated and it has to do with frequency.
	It's not a simple rotation.
	It has to do with frequencies.
	Okay.
	But you're basically looking in the right direction.
	Okay.
	Oh, and from a right-wing Christian perspective, nothing you say has contradicted the Bible.
	I don't think so.
	It's just gone right along with what the Bible says.
	You've got to really read your Bible.
	Yeah, I know.
	You know, when it talks about the Nephilim, and there were giants in those days.
	I know.
	Mighty men, men of renown.
	Ask yourself who these giants were.
	Well, that's what I'm saying.
	I'm saying that all you said tonight goes right along with what the Bible says.
	It hasn't contradicted it.
	See, in fact, I think the Bible is a lot more astonishing and amazing than most people believe because they've been listening to ministers as opposed to really, really getting into what the words are saying.
	And that's a very good point.
	All right.
	Also, one of the other things I have for you, on your video about the moon and the structure that was found on one of the moon photographs that led you to discover that there might have been hexagonal structures on the moon?
	Yes.
	Have you done any more research on that, and have you found out any more information?
	Bob Peartek, one of our architects, has.
	And in this new video series, we're going to probably produce two or three videos from the filming we've been doing in the last couple, three months, starting with the press conference back in March.
	All that will be laid out with 3D computer graphics.
	There's some astonishing things to show you.
	Because I was using the tetrahedral geometry, and I'm thinking about getting the Wallace patterns for an anti-gravity device.
	And if I get it working, RL, I'll send you one.
	All right.
	And you can hook it up to your Geo.
	I'll look forward to that.
	It'll be a beta test version.
	I want to just be able to float to Las Vegas, you know, so I don't have to go to that mountain anymore except in the air.
	Well, I don't blame you.
	All right.
	Thank you very much for the call.
	Have a good one.
	Take care.
	Richard, we've done it again.
	We've done it again?
	We've done it again.
	Oh my God.
	That means I can't answer Sandy Mendoza in Washington about Arthur Clarke.
	Remember the question about Arthur Clarke?
	I absolutely do.
	And if you can do it quickly, do it.
	Is Arthur C. Clarke a mace?
	I don't know.
	But I'm going to find out.
	And the next time we do the show, I may have the answer.
	Is it a good question?
	It's an excellent question.
	I think Arthur knows a lot more than he's letting on.
	I've always thought that myself.
	I certainly would like to interview Arthur, and so if you have any ins in that regard, I could certainly do it no matter where he is in the world, and I'm aware that he's not here.
	So if you ever get an opportunity, Dorian, to interview Arthur, I'd love to do it.
	Okay.
	Alright, Richard, it's a pleasure, as always.
	No more goodbyes, because I've learned...
	It's not goodbye, it's just till next time.
	Till next time.
	Richard, thank you, my friend.
	Thanks, Art.
	Have a good sleep, and it was certainly a good program.
	Very provocative, very enjoyable.
	Thank you all.
	We'll be back tomorrow night, or morning, as the case may be, with Craig Roberts.
	Craig Roberts was a sniper.
	He wrote a book called Kill Zone.
	He's gonna be here talking about Many things that he thinks are sort of like icebergs.

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