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Nov. 10, 1996 - Art Bell
01:24:10
Dreamland with Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe - Cattle Mutilations - The Art of Conscious Dying - Bruce Goldberg
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Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
It is, and it's going to be a very busy Dreamland.
Good evening, everybody.
I'm Mark Bell.
Of course, Linda Moulton-Howell from Philadelphia in a moment.
And among other things, she has a significant update on Art's parts, so-called.
Arts from a alleged UFO crash at or near Roswell, followed by Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
We're going to talk about something called conscious dying.
Conscious dying.
I'm not sure who would do that or why, but we're sure going to find out.
Now, without going into detail, because we don't have time right now, I've got several new, very important items on the website.
Bruce Goldberg, speaking of fascinating things, is coming up next.
And he's going to talk to us about conscious dying.
Now, Dr. Bruce Goldberg received his Doctor of Dental Surgery degree, From the University of Maryland School of Dentistry and his hypnosis training from the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis.
He earned his master's degree in Counseling Psychology from Loyola College.
He's been all over radio and television for many years in this country.
He wrote a book called The Search for Grace.
And from the L.A.
area, here is Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi!
Hi Art, how are you doing this evening?
I am very well indeed, thank you.
Doctor, what in the world...
Is conscious dying?
You introduced me earlier, Kevin, by saying, why would anybody want to consciously die?
That's right.
First, let me define it, and I'll give you some very specific reasons and very empowering reasons as to why people actually do like to do it and have been doing it for years.
Well, I guess maybe we ought to define it first.
When you say consciously die, what do you mean?
So, I introduced the concept in my first book, Past Lives, Future Lives, about the idea of accessing the higher self.
and using that shall we say exposure to the higher self to raise the quality of the soul's energy now
so people can overcome habits and phobias and they can perceive past lives future lives etc.
So that's called cleansing accessing the higher self.
The purpose of conscious dying, what it really is, is maintaining that connection, training the average person to maintain that connection so they can maintain that absolute connection with the higher self at the moment of death.
Even though they're perfectly safe now and they're not dying now, what they're doing is learning how to maintain that connection So at the exact precise moment of crossing into spiritual clinical death, they can now merge with their higher self in what I call a conscious out-of-body experience.
Alright, I'm struggling to understand this.
We're going to have to bring this down to earth.
Are you telling me you're talking about a way to have a near-death experience?
Without the near-death part.
This is a process, for example, you know how people will have... Yeah, but you're saying it is the identical experience minus the actual physical near-death.
That's correct.
What it is, is this is what you can do.
Most people do not.
But you can do this And this is what the lamas in India and Tibet would do, and the Tibetan Book of the Dead talks about.
This is what the Egyptian Book of the Dead talks about.
This is what Requiem Masses are for the Christian masses.
What this is, really, is a way of... Think of it as the ultimate of spiritual growth, like Buddha's enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree.
What this is, is maintain the connection with the perfect part of your being, which we call the higher self, or, clinically, we call this the super-conscious mind.
and maintain that connection so that almost like a reflex response
think of it as karmic Pavlovian responses here at the moment of death
you will then maintain that connection not just enter the white light as you
hear about in your death and actual death experiences but merge with the white light something you never hear
about that's right you never hear about the merging the white light by the way
for your business is your higher self if you if you are surrounded by it you're
being protected But if you merge with it, then you can do a very important thing, and that is literally perfect the soul and eliminate the need to reincarnate.
Okay, slow down.
Let's go back to the white light for a second.
Alright.
I always understood, maybe falsely, the white light to be a sort of an entrance point, not into your higher self, but Into what we think of as a step into heaven or a step into whatever is beyond either as a transition or a final destination.
I don't know.
But I always thought of it as that, and you're saying not, huh?
Well, actually, it's a mechanism.
For example, I live in Los Angeles, and if you come to Los Angeles by airplane, there'll be a nice little escalator you can stand on while you're waiting to go to where your bags are being picked up.
Right.
The escalator, in this analogy, is really the white light is around you.
It is really your higher self.
What it is doing, it is guiding you, if you will, to what we call the soul plane.
This is a dimension far above the earth plane where you actually go to perceive the in-between life states.
This is where you will select your next life.
This is where you will be advised by your heart itself as well as your masters and guides, angels, whatever you want to refer to your spirit guides.
And this old plane, if you will, is the bus station, so to speak, up there in the sky that will allow you to then proceed and comically select your next flight.
Alright, this bus station, is this in your higher self or is it an actual place removed
from our consciousness?
It's the latter, it's an actual place, it's an actual dimension, like a plane, we call
this the plane concept, the earth plane, when people cross into spirit or clinically die
they go to the astral plane where ghosts are, poltergeists if you will, then there's the
causal plane which is where the akashic records are kept, the records of all our past and
present and future lives, then there's the mental etheric plane and those make up the
lower five planes or what we call the karmic cycle.
Beyond that is the sixth plane, or the soul plane, which is that sort of like neutral zone, if you will, that demilitarized zone, where you actually cannot incur any karma, and what you can do there now is literally, think of it like being in a network station with all the monitors, look over all your past lives, including the one you just lived, with your higher self and your masters and guides, and nicely objectively and with perfect entities along with
you help you to select your next life and then you actually
will then reincarnate.
All right, a lot of people in my audience listening to this right now are probably
saying to themselves, now how in the world does this guy know all this about what happens after we die? These
various planes...
I mean, you're being very specific, so it's a good question.
How do you know all this?
Well, actually, I've done about 33,000 regressions on 11,000 different patients since 1974, so much of this information comes from what my patients tell me from what we call the super-conscious level, which is accessing their perfect part of their being, of their consciousness.
However, to supplement this, this is also not in conflict with the theosophical and other literature in the field.
There is some disagreement of how many planes there are.
Some say there are seven lower planes, some say there are five.
But the name Soul Plane, the Akashic Record, the Causal Plane, the Astral Plane, there's no real disagreement about those terminology on those locations.
The question is, it's like the devil are in the details, as they say.
So, it's a lot like the work of the Monroe Institute.
Well, the Monroe Institute, you understand, Monroe Institute, they're developing techniques of taking you out of body.
They're not doing conscious dying.
Nobody I know is doing conscious dying.
Oh, I understand.
No, I meant with respect to your definition of the various levels.
Right.
Well, they're doing it, they're trying to use frequencies to separate the left and right brain so the actual participant, if you will, the subject, can experience an out-of-body experience.
In a way, that is sort of like preparing them.
Indirectly, they're really doing this without really using the terms or the actual specifics because they don't really promote themselves as assuring enlightenment or trying to make that connection, the conscious out-of-body experience of the COBE, if you will, as a termite coin several years ago.
What they're doing is, in principle, they're doing a regular OBE, out-of-body experience.
All of our dreams are examples of out-of-body experiences.
You and your listeners have all had dreams of flying, or falling but not splatting, you know.
Of course.
These are out-of-body experience remnants, which of course we know from the research of Kripner and Ulmer, from Mombes and Brooklyn many years ago, and currently UCLA, Stanford, and others have also confirmed it, many others.
So this is a form of like using the ultimate level of the outer body experience to not only do that, but also there are many other things you can do.
One is that you can also, in addition to cleansing or raising your soul's energy, naturally one of the side effects will be increasing your psychic development.
And that includes, but not limited to, progression or seeing into the future.
May I ask you about something?
I presume heading toward the state you're describing as conscious dying or a normal OBE, they all seem to begin for people about the same way.
I interviewed a fellow named Albert Taylor last week, or at least a repeat of that, and he described The way OBEs begin, and they seem to begin with a state called sleep paralysis.
And I've experienced that.
It's a kind of a weird feeling where you seem to be possibly in between, but you're conscious and you can't move.
The hypnagogic state.
I think you're, he's the, didn't he write the book The Soul Traveler, I believe?
Oh, that's right.
Yes, I know Alfred, and I think he was on a panel on Conscious Mind at the Expo last weekend, so I know.
Well, is that about right?
You know, I've felt this rushing...
This is what the Tibetans would call the swoon.
If you read the Tibetan swoon, they use the word swoon, and they're not referring to somebody having a southern
bell painting it.
Right, right.
They're also referring to this paralysis you're referring to really is you feel immobile,
because what's happening is that the actual body is separating from the physical body.
Right, it's the beginning process.
The beginning process of the lift-out, as Monroe would call it, the late father Monroe, of course.
And this is the beginning of...
Now, not everybody is going through this.
I don't want to scare listeners out there by thinking that if they get one of my out-of-body experience tapes or this conscious out-of-body experience tape, they're going to have some sort of heart valve paralysis here.
It's not an heart valve paralysis, doctor.
It's a widely experienced paralysis.
But it's not a given that you can do this by just experiencing the normal, even relatively light level of hypnosis without having the paralysis effect.
Understood.
One of the characteristics and reasons for the paralysis that you're describing, and it's really, that's not a good term really, I understand it's descriptive, it's really like when people enter into a medium level of hypnosis, very often they'll feel numbness, like their hand fell asleep or their foot fell asleep.
Unnumbness, yes.
Now that can be interpreted in a very deep level trance as being paralysis.
In reality, of course, they can move, they just don't choose to move, therefore they don't move.
And of course, if you ask the macroids, they would say, well, I felt I was paralyzed.
What about the rushing sound or the big humming sound that people seem to hear?
Right.
Now that's also correlated occasionally, although not as commonly, with the different colors and different lights that people will perceive.
That's right.
And this is not a migraine headache now.
What this is, is changing planes and dimensions.
That's right.
Think of the end of the movie 2001.
Those of you who are baby boomers out there might remember this.
I remember it, yes.
Cooper 1969. I remember it. Yes. The end of that movie you saw these colors just beautiful
dynamics of cinematography flashing by you. That's right.
And people thought they were on the LSD trip is what my friend used to tell me about it.
But what that really is is symbolic of the idea of traveling from the earth plane
to the astral plane to the causal plane, mental, etheric and all the way to the soul
plane. In fact, even some of your listeners who may have read like the Ekinghor books
or the Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness, those other those other culty type books
will describe that very accurately the same experiences as well as the Easterners, the Indians
and the Chinese too. So it's really very much universally described as life and sounds. And of
course, Ray Moody's core experience, he described a buzzing sound.
one of his core experiences. And that's one that's been underrated. You don't hear about that as much as the white
lie in the tunnel and the other aspect of it.
Well that seems to come after that. In other words, there's a, what I call paralysis, this numbness, this rushing, this
loud noise. I've actually come to that point.
But I'm kind of a control freak.
And when I get there, I don't feel at all in control.
I feel almost nauseated.
And I pull back immediately from it.
This is the experience that a lot of people have with out-of-body experiences.
I've met lots of people.
A lot of my patients have been to either the Monroe Institute or Tri-Tapes or been to many therapists.
And the reason why you're right, it is a control issue because it's fear of the unknown, if you will.
People feel they're going over the line.
They may think they're going to flatline or something like that.
Well, they are going over the line.
Now, they may not flatline, but it sure feels like something awful.
But it's not going to lead to a near-death experience.
It's going to lead to a full-blown out-of-body experience.
But if you don't know that and don't have that vulcan, mind-meld confidence about it, then what happens is people think they're going to, you know, go over the edge.
That's right.
Now, the other advantages, by the way, we'll continue with that, but the other advantages are you can contact angels or spirit guides in the conscious out-of-body experience state.
You can eliminate the need to reincarnate, as we'll discuss later on.
You can also guide your departed loved ones.
This is a bereavement thing, too, now.
Let's say you've lost someone.
And by the way, it could also be pets.
You have three cats, I have two dogs, and to me they're the same as humans as far as their future is concerned.
I know. And if you lose someone or have lost someone, you can then guide them into the white light so they can then
reincarnate.
And what's interesting, which you also don't hear much about, is that when a loved one goes into the white light,
you know what happens immediately to the person on the earth plane? The bereavement stops. Isn't that interesting?
Yes, it is.
Grief ends when the part of the soul enters the white light.
You can do that with a conscious out-of-body experience very easily and very quickly.
You can also recall your own past lives.
Doctor, the skeptics would say we are curing ourselves.
We are, in effect, that our brain is going through an exercise that results in its own healing.
That this is not something occurring Truly, externally, but that it is internal.
What do you say about that?
Well, when you say internal, you may call yourself a control freak, I call myself an energy freak.
So basically, for example, one of the other characteristics I was about to describe is called slowing down the aging process.
And you can actually slow down the aging process, and by the way, very good hard-nosed scientific research has shown this over the past 15 years, by using either meditation or hypnosis, which are both alpha levels, to do that.
And when you enter the conscious out-of-body experience, and people I've worked with many years ago with this, look about 10-15 years younger than their chronology.
These, of course, are people over 45, and people who see me think I'm like my son, you know, and I don't have a son.
because of the idea of building up the immune system and the way you do this, if you want to use the word internal,
what happens medically is that you actually build up the production of that hormone DHEA,
which is getting a lot of press of late and has been for several years,
and that's produced by the adrenal cortex, it's actually a sexual hormone that was discovered back in the 50s,
but now we know that it builds up the immune system and therefore slows down what we call the proverbial diseases
of aging.
Everything from heart disease to arthritis to various allergy responses to cancer too, susceptibility to those and any of the immune system issues.
This is one of the other advantages.
Between all those factors, including removing the fear of death, which is the bottom line
of my therapy, between all that I think this is something that the time has come.
The Easterns have always limited the technique to their high elitist, if you will, people
who live in temples and meditate ten hours a day.
What I'm doing, as I do with all my work, is taking it to the streets, so to speak,
and bringing it so that the average person can do this and actually benefit by this and
make this a part of their life.
All right, well I want to come back to my question.
and uh... it concerned you said that uh... you could go through this process in
the breed mintwood and and i'll what i said is a skeptic would say
that this is all in internalized process and the mind healing itself and how do you know that it is indeed
external by other words that you're actually going to put it
It's a good question.
What I do is, in a conscious out-of-body experience in my office in Los Angeles, people can actually contact the soul of their departed loved one.
For example, in my new book, Llewellyn Brooks' Soul Healing, which will be out next month, there's a very dynamic case of a gentleman who lost his daughter in a car accident when she was 18 years old.
And he could not even work.
This man is a self-employed businessman.
He couldn't go to work for three weeks.
He just was moping, depressed, almost suicidal.
As it turns out, when he finally got to Pantosini, he was able to contact the soul of his departed.
Of course, she was now very traumatized.
She'd only died about three months before altogether, I believe, two or three months before.
She was a very troubled spirit.
He was able not only to calm her down and to perceive a future life with her, where she would be his granddaughter in about 300 years, But also, at the same time, guide her into the white light and allow her to enter into the eventual soul plane.
The moment she entered that white light, he stopped breathing.
This man is a very emotional man.
There wasn't a day that went by.
He used up more tissues in my office than most of my female patients.
And the day that she entered that white light, he cried with joy.
And then that ended the bereavement.
And she actually communicated that fact to him, which is one of the many Okay, my question is, though, Doctor, how do you know that she communicated that to him?
How do you know that he did not communicate that to himself?
That's my question.
Well, because in this particular case, this is interesting, she actually gave some precognitive
or futuristic information about his life that came true.
Well, now that is interesting.
And that is to be expected because let's call her on the astral plane, which is most likely
where she was.
You know, there aren't any signposts up there, but most likely she was on the astral plane.
And the astral plane, as you know about near-death experience and out-of-body experience research,
there is no time concept, as you know.
There is a space-time continuum.
And, uh, as you know, Ray Moody's work and Kenneth Ring and Michael Saban and many others, uh, and Melvin Morris, etc., have shown that, uh, they actually do read into the future and, and perceive events like the Three Mile Island incident, the Mount St.
Helens eruption, were all pre-perceived, before they occurred, documented by people with, uh, who had near-death experiences.
Alright, hold it right there, doctor.
We're at the top of the hour and we'll be right back to you.
Flatline, uh, or the benefits of flatliners, that is, uh, Very interesting.
Precognition.
Precognitive events as well.
Also very interesting.
physical event itself.
Very interesting.
Precognition.
Precognitive events as well.
Also very interesting.
We'll be right back.
From the kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
Now again, here's Art Bell.
Once again, here I am, conscious, dying.
I'm not sure I have the proper body parts for that.
We'll talk more about it in a moment.
Dr. Bruce Goldberg is my guest, and he'll be right back, imagine if you can, without the physical effects of dying.
That's what we're talking about with Dr. Bruce Goldberg, and he's got a name for it.
It's called conscious dying.
Implying, of course, that you consciously make a decision to do the same sort of thing you do if you actually, physically die.
Once again, Bruce Goldberg.
Doctor?
Yes.
Good.
I want you to know that I have nothing to do with Dr. Kovorkian and his technique.
By the way, for the benefit of your listeners, they may have seen the first televised example of an actual age regression to a near-death experience that they saw at the Richard Bay Show on September 12th.
All right.
I had the pleasure of taking a gentleman who died in December, end of December of last year, back into his actual experience.
And I also do a column now for Fate Magazine, which I sent you a copy of my initial one.
Now let me stop you again.
On the show, you took him back.
In other words, he had a physical, originally, a physical near-death experience?
Right.
He clinically died for about four minutes, back in December, the end of December of 1995.
All right, and you took him back and he claims he had the same experience?
Right.
He described the exact same, which is a very, very dynamic experience of being surrounded by four entities who look like they were dressed in almost like a monk's garb, except it was like a brownish color and a cheese fluffy environment.
environment and oh yeah, he was now perfectly safe although if you look at him you saw a
lot of emotions there, but he actually went back to that actual near death experience
and after the show of course he commented on during the show but he said, you know Dr.
Smith, minus the fact that I didn't feel like I was about to die in any second, that was
what I went through a year ago.
What exactly, now robed figures, human beings or not?
These would be the equivalent of like his guides if you will or his spirit guides and
angels if you will, that wasn't the higher self, the cheese cloth if you will was blocking
out the very persistent white light which when the cheese cloth finally he saw like
an opening through it almost like a break in the ozone layer, what he saw then of course
was the blinding white light which of course was his higher self, but these four entities
were really his spirit guides trying to guide him and trying to calm him down and trying
to orient him and they instructed him that he would be back, he would have to return
to the body and his only concern, this was on the show, he says, I don't want to go to
That was his only concern.
He thought that's what his fate was.
And they were trying to reassure him that that wasn't going to happen, of course.
And then he went right back into the body with a blinding flash of light.
What are spirit guides?
Are they beings who have lived previously or not?
Well, actually the answer is yes and no, but let me tell you what my experience has been.
Spirit guides are confused with the term angels and there's a theoretical or theosophical or shall we say theological difference to what I find myself.
The spirit guides are really people who you've probably known in past lives.
That's what most of my patients report.
These are people who you know maybe four or five hundred years ago, maybe a thousand years ago, and they have perfected their soul so now they can do one of two things.
They can ascend into the higher planes or go to heaven or Nirvana, whatever you want to call it, or they can stay around what I call the Buddha technique and be a guide.
And they decide to simply help you, and the reason they're attracted to you is because literally you were karmic good buddies centuries ago.
Not every time, but very commonly you are.
So these are people who are just entities who are just trying to help you to do what they did, and that is to perfect your soul and to be able to then either ascend or remain a guide yourself.
Now people will use the word angels, especially when I work with children and adolescents, when they describe meeting spirit guides, they always use the word angels, if they're Westerners of course.
And so that's what Spirit Guides are, but they are perfect forms of energy that we eventually will be.
The difference between what I'm saying and what the medieval church said way back a thousand years ago or so is that they feel that angels were on a different level, messengers of God that never were human, on a different convergent evolution, and never had a corporal or physical body.
And see, I disagree with that.
I feel the angels are really either the spirit guides I'm referring to, or some people may confuse their own higher self with an angelic spirit.
You're sort of saying there are not angels, as people think of them.
In other words, an angel is a fallen...
A fallen, shall we say, cabinet member of God, if you will.
Cabinet member, right.
Right?
I mean, you know, Satan being one of the big ones, you know?
Yeah.
But, see, that's what the church is.
And they kind of get that from, you know, they kind of stole that from the ancient Greeks.
And we don't really have any documentation other than simply the proverbial, shall we
say, the theological old wives' tale here.
Whereas we have thousands of examples, in my practice alone, thousands of examples of
people, no one's ever told me that they've met an angel that really was never in the
human form.
And my colleagues, Kenneth Ring and many others, will also confirm, at least their opinion shares with, we all share, seem to share.
So then, according to you, there must not be a Satan?
Well, no, as a matter of fact, oh yeah, absolutely.
I feel Satan was simply created by the Egyptians about, during the Mystery Scrolls, to scare people into going to their initiate meetings.
Just a big myth, huh?
And it's very logical.
Just like, for example, I don't feel there's a hell.
This is my personal opinion.
Obviously, without a statement, there wouldn't be a hell.
Well, but you could... Oh, there are people who do feel that you don't have to have a head honcho, that you could still have demonic entities hanging around a certain area that people would refer to as hell.
Well, I didn't exactly believe that, but that is what you're saying, correct?
Right.
What I'm saying is that hell is the negativity that you have on the earth plane that you create yourself and as a result of your own karmic actions and this and that.
So that's what I'm...
But what I'm referring to, at the same time, if there was a hell, so to speak, you see, then there would be a real problem with the soul plane and ascending.
Because what about the people who go to hell?
Does that mean they're off the ticket here?
They're off the team?
I think so, yeah.
That was always what I heard.
They're off the ticket, off the team.
And that's not what any of my patients have told me.
That's not what any of the literature that I know of, other than the theological literature, which I won't count, there's none of the psychological or metaphysical or parapsychological literature.
Well, now, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
There are books that have been written by people who claim to document, just in the same way that other people have documented good or positive near-death experiences, that doctors say they've gone to hell.
Right.
Now, let me give you an example.
The near-death experience, referring to Ray Moody's work, which of course is anecdotal, but Kenneth Ring is the one who really documented his work, Okay.
Michael Fabom is a cardiologist.
He's also reasonably scientifically documented.
Right.
95% of their reports across the board in any research article will tell you that they're very positive.
Now we deal with a gentleman by the name of Maurice Rawlings, a name you probably are familiar with.
Dr. Rawlings, yes.
Dr. Rawlings is a good old Southern Baptist, and he does not make any claim to the opposite, that he is prejudiced by his religious opinion.
In his opinion, 95% of the people described going to hell.
Nobody confirms his work.
Alright, alright.
Let's forget Dr. Rawlings for a second and let's talk about, you said that of the people you cited, they say 95% are positive.
Well, maybe 95% of the people indeed go on to the good place.
But what about the 5%?
Well, that's what we describe as the lower astral plane, not health.
The lower astral plane is sort of like what you'd call real bad purgatory, you know?
Where people are sort of like surrounded by people who are equally traumatized and maybe have Not associated with death correctly, maybe weren't very spiritually evolved, and maybe just had a lot of heavy stuff, a very troubled spirit, if you will.
Well, okay, but if you die and find yourself keeping company with John Wayne Gacy, there's a message there.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's hell, because according to the theory of hell, you can never leave it.
You're there for eternity.
In this situation, the lower astral planes, you can then go to the regular astral plane.
Eventually, your higher self will escort you, so to speak, to the soul plane.
And then you can either reincarnate or eventually ascend and go to the higher plane.
So there is sort of like probation and parole here, rather than the permanent sentence of life without parole or eternity without parole, which is what hell signifies.
It's just a matter of my experience as well as, again, the majority of my colleagues in the literature itself.
Nobody describes and says definitely that there is, by the way, the hell.
Okay, but wait a minute.
out of there. What they describe is some uncomfortable experiences that some of
the near-death experiences report and very often we have to separate that from
the drugs they're given as well as the other parts of their environment that we
don't really know of because we're not there when it happens. Okay but wait a minute, if
you're going to suggest that the bad experiences are a result of drugs or some
other external influence then you've got to imagine the same thing for the
But that's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that, for example, if a person has... I'm talking about people who die of overdoses, clinically die of an overdose of heroin or a bad trip with LSD or PCP or...
Some of the others, those are a very small percentage of near-death experiences.
Most of the NDEs, just like this case of Richard, who was on the Richard Bay Show, his name
was Rich Daniel, was heart attacks or people who die of, or clinically die of respiratory
or other things.
Sure.
They, the only drugs they're given, if they're given them at all, are general anesthetics
and we all know from the literature, and I describe this very intimately in Total Healing,
that the drugs themselves could not recreate the actual panorama of experiences, especially
the futuristic, the precognition, nor the new lease on life that near-death experiences
You cannot get that from giving somebody sodium pentothal.
It doesn't happen.
Nor does the carbon dioxide buildup occur during the general anesthesia.
What you get is oxygen, not carbon dioxide.
Has anybody done a study of people who have led, by our standards, bad lives?
Yeah.
Near-death experiences in that group?
Well, they don't... I've never read that.
I mean, they don't classify... I've never seen a study where they say, we only want to get a few examples of people who are really nasty people, comically.
I mean, if anybody knows of them, please let me know, because I've never seen one.
The only ones you get are the people who are supposedly relatively isolated from the near-death experience by pre-knowledge or they go by racial and cultural breakdowns, but I've never seen good karma versus bad karma, good guy, bad guy criteria for that.
I've never seen that.
I'll send a message out, I'm doing this new column for the state magazine, I'll put a
little message in there about whether that's done.
My people, they read the journals, but I may not.
If anybody is doing it, I'd like to know.
That might be a university project, but I've never ever heard of it.
Again, I would have to say that I don't have any experience.
Well, if we want to discover whether or not there's a hell, that's a good way to find
out.
It is, but it's not going to convince the skeptics, because skeptics don't believe in
near-death experiences being proof of death anyway.
Let me give you a good example of how you can actually prove it, and I brought this
I like that.
Go ahead.
Here's an example.
You know what flatlining means.
Oh, yes.
An electrocephalograph is flat, which means you're dead.
Good night.
Nobody's going to deny that.
No scientist is going to deny that.
Right, right, right.
Now, people say, oh, well, you know, doctor, if you have a near-death experience, you're just fantasizing some magical white light in the tunnel, and you've just read Ray Moody's book.
If you have a hallucination, if you will, or a fantasy, guess what?
You can't have a flatline.
You understand?
The hallucination would spike the electroencephalograph.
So we have documentation, Michael Sabom is one example of some of his research, where people have actually read the dials on the machines, if you will, during the emergency room, and they have read dials which of course are timed and collated so that if there was a reading of 120 over 80 and it was 845 p.m., they could know that, and you could check that with the medical records.
When they made those readings, they were flatlined.
Let me ask this.
I think they could have had a hallucination to do that.
Our brains are electrical things, right?
Electrochemical, actually.
Electrochemical, but definitely electrical.
Right?
If I put my head into a guillotine and they lop my head off and it falls into a basket, do I instantly lose everything or is there a period, seconds, a minute?
I have no idea.
When there's some activity going on and I'm sitting there in the basket going, man, I'm in a basket.
Okay, well, again, by our definition, technically the chicken without the head, so to speak, your heart will beat for a few seconds or so, so you're not going to really die instantly by that definition, but the problem is most of our medical definitions today in the 20th century, we say no neural activity, no life, and you would not have neural activity if your head was in a basket.
Instantly.
But, you see, but the heart... The neural activity... But the heart is still beating, see, so... Yeah, but forget about the heart, because the head's not on it.
That's why I used this as an example.
Well, in that case, then, by your definition, or by the definition of neural activity, you would definitely be flat-lined when the head was locked off the moment that it was locked off.
But, of course, if you maintain the connection with your higher self at that moment, you would consciously die, and then you wouldn't have to worry about coming back and doing another radio show.
You'd be ascending.
I'm not trying to really make fun of this, but the point of all this is that conscious dying is really a very dynamic technique.
Your listeners out there would like to not only know what's on the other side, and also the fear of death, etc., but they would also like to help their loved ones, they would like to help their families themselves now, they would like to empower themselves, they would like to deal with the idea of...
I agree with you.
I agree with you, Doctor, and I, too, want to know how to do it.
I said at the beginning of the half hour, I don't have the proper body parts to do it, because I just refuse to let go.
But let's say that somebody wants to do it.
They want to let go.
What is the process they use?
Very simply, I developed a very simple self-hypnotic technique, which I call the conscious out-of-body experience, which is a marrying of two major techniques that I use.
One is the super-conscious mind-tap, which is a way of accessing the higher self.
Let's go over this system just for a moment and then this will really give you a much better understanding.
third super conscious, one third out of body experience, you get what I call the COBE or
conscious out of body experience. Now let me just go over this system just for a moment
and then this will really give you a much better understanding. Normally when you die,
whether it's a near death experience leading to death which is the usual pattern, sometimes
you don't necessarily have to have that although I do feel you do, you die and then because
you haven't consciously died which is 99.99% of the population, what you do is enter what
be called unconscious signing.
Near-death experiences are examples of unconscious dying.
This is not what you want to do.
What you do then is go to what we call the, you experience the disorienting forces of the karmic cycle, which is very, very confusing to say the least.
Can I just one second stop you?
Is, among that group of people, Is that how we end up with what we call ghosts?
Well, you know, ghosts are basically people in between lives.
The bard of the state, as the Tibetan would say.
But, of course, ghosts are simply people who have not entered the white light.
They've unconsciously died, and they don't really even know they're dead.
That's correct.
They've unconsciously died, and they are sort of like staying at the party too long.
I don't know who's got the keys.
Let's go back to the system.
You die unconsciously, which is the uncomfortable way of doing it.
You go to the disorienting forces of the karmic cycle.
Now all of your memories of your past life are going to be wiped as you do that.
You're going to have a clean slate.
You will go to the soul plane eventually with your higher self as your guide, as your, shall we say, holding your hand.
And then you'll review the past life information, etc., and choose your next life.
When you unconsciously get reborn, you again go through the disorienting course of the karmic cycle, and then get born into a body with no memories of past lives, which is why most people don't have any idea of who they were before unless they go to someone like me.
Alright, now, if you do the opposite now, if you maintain the connection with the higher self, the conscious out-of-body experience, You now skip the life fantastic and ignore totally all disorienting forces of the karma cycle.
You now immediately take the express train to the soul plane.
You now most likely are going to perfect yourself, which means that you're going to have the right to ascend to the higher planes or to stay on as a guide and help others.
If you have so much karma that you can't wipe it off, you will then go through the process of choosing a very highly spiritually empowered new life Being consciously reborn, therefore not going through the
disorienting process of the karmic cycle, having memories now when you are born of your
previous lives being very fiercely evolved and being very psychic.
One good example to illustrate this, I actually have a documented case of this now.
There's a case of a woman...
A woman named Edna came to my office in 1979.
She was dying of cancer.
She had about two or three months to live.
She was depressed.
She used to play the piano, but she has arthritis, so she couldn't do that.
Her cancer was very painful.
Her children had left her years ago, no husband, alone, depressed, everything.
She contacts her higher self, and her higher self she calls Shamani, as the name of her guide.
And she goes through this process now.
She's no longer depressed.
She's going to die shortly, but she said, Doctor, I feel very good.
I just want you to know that we will meet again.
Now most people, you know, very often people say that to me, but not when they had two months to live.
So she died two months later, two or three months later.
I was told she died by her neighbor who used to bring her to the sessions and she died with a smile on her face.
Okay.
Now, we go to 1988, nine years later.
I get a call from the Midwest from a couple.
They want me to work with their unusual daughter, as they described, and they think she's possessed by some evil spirit.
They bring her to my office and this young girl, her name is Paula, she's seven years old.
She is talking about the fact that she says, you know, life is very difficult and I don't like having cancer.
And I don't have a family.
I don't like being abandoned.
And I said, uh, you're perfectly healthy.
And she said, well, this is, I'm just telling you that she likes to associate with her grandparents.
She likes older people.
She has a natural talent to play the piano, especially classical music.
All right.
I'll tell you what, we're going to have to break this.
So sit tight.
We'll be back after the bottom of the hour and we will finish this story.
Worth finishing, obviously.
I'm Art Bell and this is Dreamland.
My guest is Dr. Bruce Goldberg and I guess we're talking about the nature of death, really.
Conscious dying.
A way to do it and understand what it's all about before you actually have to do it.
And this is one of those things, like taxes, that we're all eventually going to have to do, right?
Don't forget there's a lot of new stuff on the website www.artbell.com I'm Art Bell.
My guest is Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
The only number not given on there, and we're going to get the lines open shortly.
Once again now, back to Dr. Goldberg, and I want you to finish your story.
I love proof.
One of the main things we do on this program is trying to discern if there really is life after death, so go right ahead.
Okay, Barry, just to briefly summarize, this woman, Edna, who was dying of cancer, saw me in 1979.
She couldn't play the piano because of arthritis.
She contacted a spirit guide, which is really most likely your higher self.
She referred to it as Shamani.
She died a few months later, and nine years later, 1988, I'm working with a young seven-year-old girl named Paula from the Midwest, who, of course, knew nothing about it.
Sure.
And she comes to me.
Her parents think that she is possessed, some evil spirit or whatever she's saying, these unusual things.
She's talking about having cancer, which, of course, the young child does not.
She's talking about how her family has left her.
She also likes to be called by a name of Ify, which of course does not represent her personality.
But Edna wanted to be called Ify because Edna was very indecisive.
So when I see this I pull out Edna's record as I'm working with her and sure enough the
young Paula goes into her higher self, her conscious out of body experience and tells
me that my angel says hello to you.
And I said, who is your angel?
She said, my angel is Shamani.
Oh my.
So Paula apparently was the reincarnation of Edna.
Now she consciously was reborn at the same time she was having as a child, as an infant,
she literally had these memories of her past life.
She was also a model student.
She had playmates.
She did like to associate with older people, like her grandparents.
But she also had a lot of friends her age, and she was one spiritually evolved couple.
So, I mean, here's an example of conscious dying, conscious rebirth, and actually reincarnationism.
Alright.
How would a skeptic approach that?
Is there any way for a skeptic to approach it?
In other words, you've got a child, With evidence that she couldn't possibly have any information about an adult who had died.
Right.
There's no way... I mean, of course, a skeptic will always say, well, how do we know that this wasn't some confabulation?
And I say, well, somebody's pretty patient, waiting nine years.
And by the way, none of these people did it with the expectation of me writing about it in my columns, or this is going to be in a new book, or... They had no knowledge of doing that, nor did I at the time.
So, really, this is another suggestive end.
Just like, for example, in the Search for Grace case, you know, that CBS movie that was made out of my last book.
Yes.
This is the case where this was documented, a network of independent researchers there.
This is the case that I received a couple of calls from some reporters who said, Doctor, we're going to get you on this one.
And I said, fine, do your research.
I never heard from them again, which means that they confirmed the research.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm sure that's right.
Or you would have... I would believe that.
I would be on hog copy.
That's right.
The target of a lot of stuff.
Listen, let me ask you, you mentioned That they thought this young girl was possessed.
Right.
All right.
I interviewed, and will interview again soon, Father Malachi Martin.
Father Martin does, and has done for the Catholic Church for 30 years, exorcisms.
And it leaves me the question of possession.
Is there such a thing?
As possession, in your opinion?
Yes, as a matter of fact, there is, and let me just tell you why this wasn't.
The reason why the parents, you have to understand, these were very Pentecostal type of people from the Midwest, who were not very well educated, and assume that a child who's speaking with the vocabulary of an adult, and talking about having cancer, is possessed.
Of course.
Now, in reality, what possession is, is there are demonic entities out there, and I will be the first to testify to those, and there are many others who do it.
This isn't the hell of substantiation.
What this is, there are entities out there that are not angels.
They're not perfect entities.
There are true demonic entities.
I've only dealt with myself what we call the minor ones.
I've not dealt with the ones that would cause people's head to spin, if you will.
But there are minor demonic entities who've been around for a long time, a real long time, and who try to literally possess What are they?
What are they?
Well, again, this goes now, this is where you can call them if you will.
They fit into the proverbial fallen angel mentality.
They're not, they weren't corporal people as far as I know.
When I've communicated with them, of course they lie all the time, you can't believe anything
they say, if you read the literature, but they apparently have knowledge, they have
tremendous knowledge.
They can speak languages, they can write Latin, they can write ancient Greek, they can do all these things, so apparently they fit into some lower level form of what people might refer to as an angelic or perfect entity, if you will.
Perfect being that they came from a higher source, but again, their purpose is simply to, of course, their purpose is to take over the body and to take over the earth, which of course they're failing miserably in doing, but they are definitely very high-powered and very Yes, the entities who do not mean us well.
Well, then what is the difference between the lower levels you talk about and hell?
I mean, effectively, what is the difference if you have beings that are this demonic, this terrible?
Um, then we're playing with semantics here.
Not really, because this is why.
This is my definition.
Maybe we have a difference.
Let me show you what my semantics are.
Maybe we can compare the two.
We'll compare notes here.
The lower astral planes are where the demonic entities, shall we say, that's their cheers bar.
That's where they hang out.
That's fine.
Now, souls, human souls, can also go there, if they'd like, like a Hitler would go there, or a Saddam Hussein would go there, or a really nasty person would go there.
Yes.
But then they eventually go up to the higher, or the regular astral planes, if you will, the higher astral planes, as some refer to it, and then eventually they go to the soul plane and reincarnate.
So they're not trapped there for eternity.
Yeah, only after shoveling a lot of coal, though.
Well, okay, but the point is they don't have pointed ears, they don't have tails, and they're not trapped there for eternity.
My definition of hell by the theological definition is that once you go in, it's like the roach motel, you don't go out, and these, you have the door swings both ways here.
See, so therefore, I don't call that hell, I call that the lower astral planes, and there are escape clauses, and you can sort of like, get your card punched, and leave the dimension and go on to one that is a lot more functional.
Yeah, that's true.
The traditional religious view is you go to hell, you're there for eternity.
One-way ticket.
One-way ticket.
I don't think you and I have a semantic difference.
Maybe some of your listeners might, but again, most people today think that when they look at their lives today, they look at all the negativity going on and diseases floating around.
They say, hey, health can't be a lot worse than this.
I try to empower them to realize they can actually go far beyond that and create their own reality and consciously die and not have to worry about coming back to earth plane.
Well, what do you say to the preachers then who preach hellfire and brimstone and say there is a worse place than earth and if you don't...
Do what you're supposed to do.
You're headed there.
Well, they're not on my Christmas card list and I'm not on theirs because I don't believe that you need an agent.
You know, I believe you can actually cut a TV movie deal which I didn't get book published without having an agent.
I also believe you can perfect your soul without an agent.
The theologians themselves, the priests, rabbis, and ministers, God bless them for what most of them want to do.
I have no problem with most of them, but I do have a problem with the theory.
The theory is You need, then, codependency to get to heaven, and I have a problem with that.
Well, actually, I do, too.
And I actually agree with you.
You don't need an agent.
It can be done within yourself, without question.
But you understand, if you don't have the agent and you don't have the bureaucracy, you cannot be supported by the proverbial tax-free donations, and there's a self-interest mentality here.
I don't think people are that stupid where they just don't realize that.
I think it's, in my definition of spiritual involvement, no co-dependency.
Doctor, that might be kind of an elitist position.
There are a lot of people who need agents, who need the help, and I tend not to, in any way, criticize them or put them down or even suggest they're a lower level of I don't believe, although I do feel most people do need therapy, I really don't like that concept.
I like the idea of people being trained to be empowered.
People can believe in any religion they want to.
God bless them, and I'm a First Amendment activist, which includes religion as well as speech and press, and I feel that they can believe in anything they want to.
I don't see it as myself, but I'm a free agent, if you will.
I don't have, I don't take my formal association with any established religion per se.
I just believe in one God.
No, that's fine. That's absolutely fine.
But he's also fine if you're a Jew, Christian, Muslim, or a Shintoist or Buddhist.
My point is that, but if you do that to the extent where you are going to be depressed by the negativism...
For example, we have a good thing coming up.
Let's talk about Millennium issues.
People think that next year, you know, the UFO type, some of them feel that next July is it for us and the UFOs can take over.
Some people feel that, of course, the Cayces, the Bible, the Nostradamus, your friend Gordon Michael talked about the Earth splitting up or the United States or whatever.
And I'll tell you right now, it's going to be a St.
Patrick's Day parade on the year 2000 on January 1st, because that's not going to happen.
And this is the kind of mentality where people I feel, of course, living in Los Angeles, I have patients and people who come to me that literally have panic attacks.
Driving their car just drive east.
I don't blame them.
I don't blame them.
I was just down in Los Angeles and I can tell you I almost had a panic attack and I wasn't even driving.
Well, remember the statement that I sent you last year and I'll say it again.
There will be no earthquake larger than the Northridge earthquake.
No 7.0 or larger rictus in Los Angeles or any Southern California area between now and the year 2050.
As I reported, my patients told me in past lives, future lives.
And we are not going to see California floating into the water.
I will be a landlubber for the rest of my income.
Now, let's get this straight, alright?
There will be no earthquakes larger than the Northridge earthquake.
Well, we'll round it up and say 7.0, okay?
7.0?
No earthquakes greater than 7.0?
Oh.
Right.
Between now and when?
2050.
54 years.
50.
54 years.
There will be no Armageddon.
There will be no nuclear wars.
There will be no economic collapse.
Wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
I want to bet here.
Alright.
Let's go to 2010, because the chances are good that Dr. Goldberg and Art Bell will be alive in 2010.
Why don't we make it 2012?
That's when the Mayans kill the peasants.
2012?
You got it.
twenty twelve you've got it twenty twelve
2012.
Alright.
i'm willing to bet you a thousand dollars that there will be an earthquake greater than seven oh
in california Well, I hope not.
I hope there are no laws against playing on the radio, but you're on.
I don't really care.
You're on!
Um, a thousand bucks, 2012.
As long as James Randi doesn't hold it, you're on.
You're on.
This is on the air, and this is live.
That's right, it's the easiest thousand I ever made.
Now, again, at the same time, you're going to have to do a lot of commercials for me.
Oh, look, I expect to make it long before 2012.
for twenty twelve okay alright and uh... and by the way it and and and and
and still if you're if you somehow alive in your twenty fifty
uh... we can we can then get the uh... the the the multi factorials on that
I'll be collecting before 2050.
No problem.
Okay.
I'm happy with 2012.
It's a bet.
Good.
Good.
And if I die, just try and collect.
Look, as a matter of fact, you asked about questions.
Let me tell you about a skeptical question.
People say to me, you know, doctor, how do I know that if I'm going to consciously die, this is going to work?
And I said, look, if you come back to the earth plane when you consciously die, if you don't perfect yourself, you come to me in your next life and all your fees will be refunded.
It's a lifetime money back guarantee.
It's a future life money back guarantee.
All right, look, I would like to take a few calls, so let's spread it around a little bit.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
Hi, thank you for taking my call.
Sure, where are you?
I'm actually calling from Bemidji, Minnesota, from Stillwater, Virginia.
All right, wow.
And I want to thank you, Mr. Bell, for your shows.
I'm really learning a lot, and I appreciate that you're putting those kind of shows on.
I had had a couple of spontaneous out of body experiences when I was fairly young and didn't
know what they were until I started reading some literature about astral projection and
out of body experiences.
When I tried to start practicing it to do it consciously, I had an experience one of the first times I tried it.
of there being this kind of flash of blue light in the room and it felt like there was
a hand in front of my face about an inch above my nose and I heard this voice say no and
I never tried it again.
Now this hand that said no, did you feel any kind of a feeling of like impending doom or negativity or positivity or anything in between when you had that experience?
It was like someone was protecting me and saying don't do this, it's dangerous.
But that's not my question.
My question was did you feel yourself uncomfortable as a result of that instruction or the presence of that blue light, if you will?
It's a very good question.
I'm really glad you brought this up.
If you are in the presence of a higher self, your higher self, which by the way blue or white doesn't really make a difference, very often it's blue, yellow or gold but it doesn't make a difference, you will never feel anything but absolutely immersed in a feeling of love and peace and
harmony and you name it.
If you are surrounded by an angel or spirit guide or whatever you want to call that,
the equal effect will occur. If somebody, no spirit guide, no higher self will ever say,
don't do this. If anything, they will encourage you to do that.
So my guess is you had one of two things. Either you had a poltergeist,
a disoriented entity who is just not in a very good mood, or you may have even had possibly, although unlikely, a
minor demonic entity.
This was not a positive entity who was with you.
They would never do that.
All right.
Ma'am, thank you very much.
It was such a good question.
Why would you say that it could not have been, in effect, a guardian angel, the guides, whoever you want to... whatever you want to call it, whatever entity, saying, no, wait a minute.
This is dangerous.
You're not headed for a good place.
Whoa!
Protecting.
Well, because, first of all, the guides, the higher self, or the angelic spirit, the spirit guides, would be surrounded by the white light that they represent.
They would protect Sue.
Sue's physical body, as well as her astral body.
And we all know that out-of-body experiences are not dangerous.
So therefore, the only thing then we're getting, she's being fed false information, which would suggest a minor demonic entity, or it's some little poltergeist who decides that, you know, they think they're just gonna make somebody's life a little miserable for the evening.
There's no way any higher spirit would ever do that.
It just goes against every rule in the world.
Well, to the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hello.
I'm sorry, I got the wrong number.
I thought it was Art Bell.
It is Art Bell.
Dr. Goldberg is my guest.
Oh, okay.
I'll turn my radio off.
Yeah, by all means.
I haven't taken over the universe yet, ma'am.
Tell us where you're calling from, please.
Fresno, California.
All right.
I am 68 years old now.
When I was 29, I first started to leave my body.
And nothing was ever written about it.
And I'd tell my husband about it.
And he'd say, keep your mouth shut.
People think you're crazy.
And then over the years, finally things was written about it.
And one time, when my son-in-law was out at Lemoore, he worked out there, he was in the Navy, he come in at night, that morning, I had been out of my body that night, and I told him about the huge underground complex out there, and the silos and missiles.
He looked at me, turned around, walked away, and never said a word.
But I got confirmation of it about eight years ago.
You were doing remote viewing, and actually in the old days, in those days, there were books written by Robert Krukall and several others, but they were pretty technical and pretty heavy.
But you're right, most of the books weren't out until the 70s or so, I'm not about any experiences.
Did you do any purposeful traveling, ma'am?
Did you purposely want to go somewhere?
Yeah, one time I went out to see a nephew I hadn't been able to see.
And he was having diarrhea from head to toe.
And I confirmed that the next day.
Okay.
And that same night I went to the Great White Light and they told me I couldn't come in.
Okay.
You couldn't come in meaning where now?
Couldn't come into the White Light itself?
Evidently.
Okay, which means I think what you were trying to say is that maybe you thought that you were going to cross over or die and they were telling you that you still have a life to live?
No, when I had the out-of-body experiences, it didn't bother me at all.
I'd see my body laying on the bed.
But I think what you're talking about here is maybe the idea that if you entered into that white light, that would escort you to the soul plane and you weren't ready yet.
You had many years to go.
Well, I'll tell you one thing.
I know what my next lifetime is going to be.
You asked, now this brings up, you did what we call a pre-cognition or a progression, so you got a sneak preview into your next life.
Would you mind sharing that?
I'm going to be on the moon and witness the first murder.
I've told my 13 grandkids this.
And I remember past lives.
Okay.
I'm assuming this never happened before you had your out-of-body experience.
No.
Okay.
This is because when you had your out-of-body experience, what you were doing was actually raising your own quality of your soul's growth and therefore you became a little bit more psychic.
Have you been more psychic over the years now as far as like... Oh, I always was.
I can tell my kids just what they'd already done.
But didn't this more magnify itself after the first out-of-body experience when you were 29?
Yeah.
See, so this is an example of, this wasn't exactly conscious diagnosis on the road to it, where you're developing your psychic development, your spiritual growth, and what does your husband think about all this?
Oh, he's been dead for 12 years.
I mean, but up until then.
He didn't, after he'd seen his father had been, his father had been dead for five years.
Yeah.
His father had come to visit him one morning after I'd gone to work, and talked to him.
My husband's seen his father.
So did that lighten up his attitude towards her?
Oh, yeah.
He never made fun of me again.
Okay.
You see, this is all karmically chosen.
This is one thing.
All this became... There's a lot of spiritual growth that was going on in your family, you and your husband especially, as a result of visitations, in your husband's case, in your case, into a regular, spontaneous, out-of-body experience.
That's a very, very good question and an interesting story, and I appreciate you telling it.
Very remarkable.
Yes, indeed.
All right.
We don't have a lot of time before the top of the hour.
Your book, Uh, Doctor, um... You talking about the new one, Soul Healing, now?
Um, well, no, I'm still talking about the Search for Grace.
Oh, okay.
Soul Healing is not out yet, is it?
Right, it'll be out next month.
Uh, so we ought to talk about one that people could get.
Okay, well, it's also passed by Futurize, but all right, good.
That's right, and the Search for Grace.
Right.
Available how?
Well, the classifieds specialize in the Ballantyne book, which they can get in any bookstore, or they can call my 1-800-KARMA-FOR-YOU number, or 1-800-527-6248.
The Search for Grace right now is only available through my office next year.
Llewellyn, the new publisher of Soul Healing... Okay, but it's 1-800-KARMA-FOR-YOU for what's out there right now.
That's correct.
All right, wonderful.
Stay right there, we'll be right back to you.
Doctor, my guest is Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
And you're listening to Dreamland.
Fascinating topic.
Near death now, we could call it.
I'm Art Bell.
We'll be right back.
Good evening, everybody.
This is Dreamland.
Dr. Bruce Goldberg is my guest.
And one more time, if you have not yet done so, by all means, go up to my website.
To Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Oh, by the way, if I did not give it to you, my website address.
Yes.
All right.
We're back on the air again.
I wanted to just to tell your listeners, I'll be giving a, a week from tonight, I'll be giving a talk on conscious dying in Los Angeles.
At the end of the year, December 29th and 30th, I'll be at the ARE in Virginia Beach doing an experiential workshop on conscious dying, past life regression, and future life regression.
Alright, you're going to be in LA where?
I'll be at the Beth Jacob Congregation in Beverly Hills.
Alright, I'm sure there's a lot of people who are going to hop over and take a listen.
Back to the lines, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
I'm sure there's a lot of people who are going to hop over and take a listen.
Hi.
Back to the lines, east of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
Hi.
Yes, sir, where are you?
My name is David.
I'm from Wilmington, North Carolina.
Hi, David.
My question is more in reference to conscious dying as it relates to astral projection.
I've been trying this for years unsuccessfully and I'm also curious if it's dangerous in any way, if it's successful.
And what are exactly the mechanics possibly to succeed in doing this?
You're trying the astral projection, which is the old term for what we call today simply remote viewing or out of body experiences.
The best way, the most efficient way I know for anyone, regardless of your background, is really self-hypnosis.
The reason being is because it's a very controlling technique that you can control.
It's perfectly safe.
And if you're not really sure what you're doing with hypnosis, I have a whole series of tapes of out-of-body experience tapes and conscious out-of-body experiences, a special tape, which all you have to do is put on some headphones, a cassette player, push a button, relax, chill out, and allow yourself to guide yourself into this level.
Understand one thing, David, and this is very important.
Out of body experiences are by far the most, one of the most complicated techniques with hypnosis.
If you just wanted to relax your body and that's easy.
But out of body experiences require you to pretty much remove as much physical distraction,
as much psychological, emotional and even spiritual distractions from your awareness.
So I would suggest a room or some place in your home or apartment, wherever you are, that's as quiet as possible.
Some people like to do this in their spa, you know, nice and comfortable.
Doctor, he asked you if there was any danger.
Right.
Now, if there's any danger, there really is none.
Nothing in the world can possibly happen to harm you, even if there were some demonic entity around, or some negative poltergeist, some negative bad paradise spirit floating around.
At least the tapes that I use, I have a white light protection on that.
White light protection, as funny as it sounds, will protect you from anything and anyone.
So there's no possibility of danger.
The only question is how fast and quickly can you leave your body, literally lift out and leave the body and go through whatever experience you want to do.
And that includes, by the way, as the woman who called in earlier from Fresno, you can actually direct the travel of your soul to a location and a person you may want to visit.
That takes a little bit more experience, but you can do it.
Can you freak out and, like, lose your way?
No, you can't.
This is not like Houdini under the ice in Detroit, you know, 1906.
It doesn't happen that way.
The worst that can happen... Remember, your higher self is always with you, so you're going to have a presence there that's going to get you back on the track if you think you're just wandering around, and the worst scenario is you'll just come back into the body.
That's all.
You'll just flip right back, and you travel at the speed of light anyway, so it won't take very long, and you'll just wake up or maybe fall asleep if it's late at night.
And you'll just do your thing.
Remember, every night that you dream, which is three hours a night, those are out-of-body
experiences and you do tend to wake up in the morning, right?
Right.
So you're having no harm, no harm, no foul.
So you can't speak to other people out there and stuff?
Yeah, it's telepathy, though.
Don't expect to have baritones here, you know?
The three tenors don't work there.
It's all telepathy.
All right, I have a question, doctor.
I have a question.
And it is, no offense, but you say there is never danger.
And I presume one of the ways you conclude that is, as you point out, you go to sleep
at night and wake up in the morning.
Right.
I would say, what about all the people that die in their sleep?
Okay, well obviously they die in their sleep not because of the trauma of the out-of-body experience.
They die in their sleep because their heart gives in or because of some medical or biological reason of aging.
That's this part of life.
What I'm saying is that their soul is what I'm referring to, not the physical body.
See, let's explain the idea of dying in this case.
It's a good point.
When you're awake during the day, we are what we call the beta brainwave level, the normal conscious awareness, the analytical willpower, whatever you want to call it.
The alpha level hypnosis or meditation is considered a very relaxed state, and if you want to chill out, do some alpha, alright?
Now, when you go to sleep at night, your only choices are unconsciousness or the REM cycle at night, which is an alpha level too, which is hypnosis.
The problem is, there, the REM cycle, or the alpha level at night in dreams, is traumatic compared to the unconscious mind, because of what you're comparing it to.
So if you're going to die in your sleep, and most people do, by the way, die in their sleep, that's equivalent to stress, whereas during the waking day, it's equivalent to relaxation.
Well, my point was, though, a lot of people have passed on in their sleep, sometimes for relatively undetectable cause, and we never get to talk to them again, so they never get to say, I was having an out-of-body experience, and along came this horrible thing, and I detached from my body, and I went to the place, and I wasn't going to die, but I was traveling out-of-body, and somebody snapped my ethereal cord, and away I went like a balloon set loose.
I have spoken to thousands of them through super-conscious mind-tasks and conscious out-of-body experiences, and so have my patients, and no one has ever described that.
Even in crib death, I had a woman whose baby died of crib death, which you know, that is unknown cause.
The baby just died, and she spoke to the soul of her three-day-old baby, and the baby described from the perspective, telepathically of course, That what happened was that it was a poor choice.
It was a poor comic choice, and it decided to leave and go back to the Soul Plane to reincarnate, and it was sorry that it caused her any kind of bereavement and discomfort emotionally.
All right.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Hi.
I'm from Washington.
My name is Maria.
Hi, Maria.
Hi, William.
I had been in a very bad accident in December moving from New Jersey to Washington, and I lost both my parents in the accident.
Oh, sorry to hear that.
I remember nothing of the accident, not even in dreams, nothing at all.
I consulted with a psychic who was pretty reputable.
You were in the car when they died?
Yes, I was the driver actually.
You were the driver?
Uh huh.
Were you harmed physically as a result of this?
I'm sorry?
Yes.
Because what had happened is my husband was in the vehicle ahead of me and he saw the whole thing happening.
He said my car veered I don't remember anything.
Have you gone through a lot of bereavement as a result of losing your parents?
Yeah, I have, but most of the time I'm at peace with it, finally, with their loss.
I hope you don't feel guilty as a result of this.
Well, I did initially, but now I don't anymore.
Was there a time when the bereavement issues or the grief, if you will, was there a time when it just simply let up and stopped?
Yeah, they have.
Was that like several months ago?
No, I would say about a month ago.
When that happened, this is what I was discussing earlier, I don't know if you heard the beginning of the show.
No, I didn't.
When your bereavement or grief really basically for the most part stops, the souls of your parents enter the white light.
and they will now be going on to what we call the soul plane to reincarnate.
So if you're concerned about them being a troubled spirit because they died, let's say,
reasonably traumatically in a car accident, their souls are now at peace now.
And you can tell that because you have free will.
I'm comfortable with that.
Pardon me?
I'm comfortable with that, so what? I know they're at peace.
Right.
But the thing is, is that why don't I remember anything of the accident?
Well, now you're describing it.
an emotional block because there is still a part of you that would say, I don't want
to relive this because if you remember the accident in detail, almost like when people
have a car accident everything goes in slow motion, that kind of thing.
If you were to do that in stop frame if you will, think of a video cassette player, then
you would be experiencing something and reliving something that part of you might think would
bring back either the guilt or the bereavement issue or just review something that you just
don't find particularly pleasant.
I mean, they thought I must have fallen asleep at the wheel.
That was the... And, of course, we could... Hypnotic regression could actually elicit exactly what happened, if you really want to review that.
Yes, I would.
For some reason, I want to know what happened.
Are you in Seattle, you say?
Yes.
Well, about an hour away from Seattle.
I will be up there next May and if you contact me I will let you know what I am going to
be doing.
Oh excellent.
I will be doing a progression and past life there too.
This is something that again I believe in always going back and reviewing things because
depression usually causes psychosomatic issues.
The nice thing about your situation is that you don't seem to be experiencing that now
so obviously you have gone through a lot of your own spiritual growth in the interim.
Alright, well I shouldn't contact you then when you get to Seattle, Rocker.
I have a question for you.
It is true, and I've experienced it myself, in a major crisis.
When you're about to die or something, you're really in crisis.
Time slows to a crawl.
What is it?
What function accomplishes that for us?
I've always wondered about that.
Well, what that is is actually an out-of-body experience.
You are now dissociating, as we would say, psychiatrically, and what you're actually doing is entering into the alpha level.
This is why people like who jog and run in hypnosis, they jog for 10 miles and they don't realize what's happened or you're on the freeway.
This is a more extreme example where you don't, in order to take the stress of the incident, especially since very often it involves physical pain like a car accident can, emotional pain, The woman's case of losing her parents.
So in order to deal with that, the only way to deal with that without stressing yourself into a potential heart attack, a myocardial infarction as we call it, is to just slow things down.
Now you're entering the space-time continuum, where there is no time as we know it, and that's the only way you can deal with it as an adaptation and adjustment to the emotional stress behind that.
It's called a dissociative state.
It's very common.
Alright, got you.
Back to the lines we go.
First time caller line, your turn with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
Hi, where are you sir?
This is Randy and I live in St.
Louis.
Alright.
Hi Randy.
Hi Dr. Goldberg.
I'm one of those people that try and try to have an out-of-body experience and never been able to, but when I go to bed, quite often, real often, I have that sleep paralysis.
I'm sure that one of your goals, Randy, is that you'd like to do this during the day and not just before going to bed.
Right.
And you might also want to lighten up the numbing of the arms and legs, which you're calling the paralysis, right?
Right.
Let me show you a much better way of doing that.
Let's say you play an out-of-body experience tape.
That's not really going to solve your problem. What I would suggest, what I do with my patients is
I teach them to do the super conscious mind tap technique first. This is accessing your higher
self and remember I told you earlier if you listen to the early part of the show the conscious out
of body experience is the melding of the super conscious mind tap with the out of body experience.
That eliminates pretty much the paralysis, unless you're some mandible patient, which is very rare.
Right.
So now what you can do is access the higher self, which will get you out of the body smoother and faster, eliminate most, if not all, of what you would consider to be discomforting side effects like the numbing, or you'd call paralysis.
Right, that's what I think that maybe there is something I don't know, evil or wrong about it, because one time I was paralyzed and darkness just started coming in.
Well, again, see now, when you do this yourself and you cannot protect yourself with a white light, that's a problem.
I always recommend, always, and all my tapes have white light protection.
If you use, for example, the super-conscious mind-tap and then follow it with the out-of-body experience, both of them have white light protection.
Well, you said a problem.
That implies danger.
No, it doesn't.
Even if a person, for example, remember his higher self is always with him.
If, for example, there was a negative entity, let's call it a demonic.
A demonic entity is equivalent to us, would be like a guy going in with a tank to a country that lives in Bamboo Hut.
A demonic entity could wipe you up and have you for breakfast in a New York Minute.
Okay?
The reason why it doesn't is because your higher self is always there with its white light brilliance.
Protecting you.
That's why I say it's never dangerous.
Maybe it's a good time for me to ask this.
From George in Winnipeg, Canada.
Doctor, why do some religions, Christian, Islamic, consider the OBE to be evil, where some religions, Buddhism, many Asian, African, and Central American religions aspire to the OBE state?
I would appreciate your opinion.
Because the Christian religion basically all came from the mystery schools, and they didn't forget their forefathers.
And in the mystery schools, as well as negative uses of shamanism, there were some nasty uses of the out-of-body experience techniques.
Not so much the out-of-body experience, but the conjuring up of black magic techniques.
and they incorrectly associate all metaphysics with conjuring up evil
spirits and conjuring black magic mentality and that's really the
proverbial old wives tale that they never really shook just like the idea
that priests are supposed to be celibate when the new testament never said that
you know i mean it's just supposed to be an add-on that was done to keep the
masses in line. The eastern people didn't have that problem because they
believe in the incarnation of karma and they don't have a problem with the
theoretical paradigms although they came from mystery school too.
all right well that's a good answer Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
Hi Art, how are you doing?
Fine, where are you?
I'm in Las Vegas.
KBEG, yes sir.
Hey Art, I've got a question, well I've got a comment for the doctor.
Sure.
Actually, I had an OBE.
It took place at night and I saw flashing white lights.
After the incident, which was as scary as you've described it, Art, and it was very scary and it lit up my whole room like a strobe light.
And I felt an electronic buzz through my body that didn't shock me but felt very scary.
And it moved through my body as if somebody was pouring syrup, you know, on me.
So this is like an electrical response mechanism?
Yeah, electronic of some kind.
Now I wanted to know, based on this alone, the fact that when that happened I had observed some raccoons on my roof prior.
The raccoons also stopped their activities completely.
They were completely silent on my roof, outside of my window.
As soon as I started feeling all this and my room lit up with a strobe light.
Now, I don't attribute that to any anthropomorphic, you know, with all due respect, the way you're describing it.
It felt like I was under some kind of control and afterwards I got up, ran to the windows and the raccoons also were released.
and they ran off the roof. That's how scared they were.
You know, the first thing that comes to my mind, and it matters that,
did you check to see where there was any UFO sightings that night?
I didn't, sir, but again, the OBEs seemed to pass into that direction occasionally,
about 35% of the time.
I think most, you're describing something, again, that would be one thing I would like to eliminate,
to make sure there wasn't any either electronic disturbance or even a UFO sighting,
but let's say there wasn't. Let's say this was all your own experience of an OBE.
I think most of your discomfort that you're describing was really due to...
The lack of knowledge of what that was, the fear of the unknown.
Not so much that some entity was trying to pull your body apart or to do some psychic dismemberment, which people sometimes think out of body experiences are.
They're not.
I think it's just simply a matter of like a little child being afraid of the dark if he sees a monster movie.
Let's talk a little bit about UFOs.
You mentioned them.
Earlier in the program, you seemed to scoff a little bit at them, and now you mention them as if, well, maybe that's an explanation for what happened.
If you got the impression that I scoff at UFOs, do not.
on past interviews, Bob, if you got the impression that I scoff at UFOs, do not. I have done
75 UFO abductions as far as regressions are concerned, and I am on the list of, I believe
in UFOs, and you can put that in your Guinness Book of Records.
Oh, absolutely.
What I'm saying is that, what I said was that the UFO items I was referring to, I went to a UFO West convention a couple years ago, and they were talking about July of 1997, is when we're taken over by whatever, and I just have a problem with that.
That's what I was referring to.
You mentioned remote viewing as well.
Well, we do have remote viewing, of course.
Is it real?
Remote viewing is an out-of-body experience.
It is an out-of-body, and it is real.
Oh, absolutely.
It's been documented by SRI, Stanford Research Institute.
Then I wonder what you would say about Dr. Courtney Brown, a fairly well-known remote viewer, who just released on his website, available through ours, a big announcement That the President very shortly is going to go public and admit that UFOs are real, are known about, and very soon, I mean within weeks or months, shortly.
And I'll let you do that one over while we take a break here.
I just thought I'd mention that because you thought nothing spectacular is coming very soon.
Or maybe I misinterpreted that.
We'll find out right after the break.
By the way, Dr. Courtney Brown on my program, end of the week.
... supporting any kind of harm.
Going back to the conscious out-of-body experience, where of course you're totally protected by an intense
bright white light anyway as part of the technique.
So far, doctor, now wait a minute now, we've got millions of listeners and at any given moment
only a few of them can get through.
So, to be fair here, if there's anybody out there with a negative OBE...
Um, I would like to know about it.
Please contact me or email me or something.
Or send your mouse to the session.
That's right.
But what I'm saying is that when you see this, you'll see people who of course will respond
to fear of the unknown, but no one's going to really report.
And I'll be happy, listen, I'm willing to leave you, I'm more than willing to talk to
them.
But unless you're getting some demonic entity, which is possible, very, very rare and unlikely,
when you talk to people who are the priests who do exorcisms, when you ask them about
the percentage of people they have to do that to, it's really the proverbial drop in the
bucket, the pebble on Santa Monica Beach, as we say.
So basically, these out-of-body experiences are safe.
The only reason I recommend white lights and using more conscious out-of-body experience
techniques is because they're far more controllable.
You don't have the physical discomfort of the paralysis of anonymous.
You can maintain, you can be a lot more efficient in what you want to do with it, as well as
obviously prepare yourself so that you don't have to reincarnate and ascend spiritually.
Do you think that you should devise a name?
That is more attractive than conscious dying.
Well, it's a name that people can relate to, and I understand the idea of public relations, and my philosophy is you don't be well enough, you know, but I'm a straight shooter.
I believe in calling it like it is.
It is what it is.
It is what it is.
You are consciously doing something.
You are dying.
There's a difference between conscious dying, if I separate it from unconscious dying, which is what a near-death experience is.
I think a near-death experience is one of the most politically incorrect terms you'll ever find to describe an experience, you know?
I mean, it is true, you almost die, you do die for a moment or two, but near death sounds like, you know, you're on the borderline and you may not come back.
But to me, I just call it, to me, if some publicist convinced me in the years from now, I'll consider it, but right now, conscious dying is the label, and you know... Well, good enough, all right.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Where are you calling from, please?
Utica, New York.
Utica.
Doctor, I had a negative experience.
Aha!
Go ahead.
I was only able to get out halfway before I... Well, what's your definition of a negative experience?
Alright, wait a minute, wait a minute.
Hold it, caller.
He's stopping you.
What is your definition of a negative experience, he says?
Well, it just didn't seem right.
Well... That doesn't to me sound like negative.
You said that you alluded to a demonic entity.
Could you explain that then?
Well, I felt a presence.
I felt evil.
I didn't see it.
I just felt it.
Here's the problem.
If you really had a demonic entity there, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.
I think this demonic entity would have done a real number on you.
However, if you had an experience there of an entity that was maybe trying to communicate, but you were half in and half out, you might not be in a very receptive position and would be more concerned about the experience you were having, half in and half out, plus the presence.
Uh-huh.
of an entity that obviously wasn't earthbound, and I think that would fit into the category of bizarre
rather than dramatic.
You see what I'm saying?
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah.
So, I mean, it's a nice try, but I don't think it's the cigar here.
Okay.
All right.
Good try, sir.
Thank you.
Half and a half out is good because you can actually learn how to go all the way with it.
When you're half and a half out, you really... The white light also helps.
It's like lubricating something, you know?
The white light helps you to flip out instantly and to flip back in instantly and not be in this, you know, come-see-come-so situation.
The white light or lubrication.
That's right.
Interesting.
West of the Rockies.
West of the Rockies.
You're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hello.
Hello.
Mark?
Yes.
This is Richard Nowell.
Courtney, I'd like to find out what happens if you're blind.
Oh, very good!
Oh yeah, that is a good question.
If you're blind, let me show you the evidence of near-death experiences.
Ray Moody reports a case in one of his books about a woman who was blind for 50 years.
She not only described the mechanics of the operation of the OR room where she died clinically, but she described the colors of the instruments on the table in order, and she had been blind for 50 years.
Now that is impressive.
And that's Ray Moody's work, and we all know who Ray Moody is.
Oh, we sure do, and that's very impressive.
And Ray's also their personal friend, and he speaks the truth with no forked tongue.
My point here is that when you're... Wait, wait, wait, no, hold it, hold it, hold it.
I've got a question.
How do you describe a color?
Well, the woman was not born blind.
She was blind when she was about, like, 8 or 9 or 10 years old, because she knew what colors were.
Good answer.
Okay?
That's also true.
That's Ray's case.
All right.
But let's talk about the Very good.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Bruce Goldberg.
Hi.
had it or not. It will be able to see, hear, feel, taste, touch, smell, everything, even if those
Hi.
sensors were destroyed by somebody getting their head blown up in a bomb explosion. The soul,
the astral body, will experience everything, including the bouquet of the wine on the table.
Very good. East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr.
Bruce Goldberg. Hi.
Hi. It's been discovered that if an electrode is placed above and behind the right ear on that part
of the skull that he...
I don't know what you're referring to.
That technique you're referring to is really, if you're referring to a certain beat placed in the brain, a certain electrical stimulation, it doesn't have to be the right lobe, it could be anywhere, but I would not, I don't believe in artificiality to stimulate out-of-body experiences.
All right, caller, caller, caller, where are you?
Boston, Massachusetts.
Boston, alright.
So is that true, Doctor?
I've never heard of that one particular part of the brain.
You can bring it out of body experience by stimulating any part of the cerebral cortex with electricity.
You can?
Yeah, of course you can.
But the problem is that Wilder-Penfield did that years ago in Canada.
But the point here is that the reason why I don't like that is because A, it's artificial, and B, you can also bring upon seizure disorders.
There's a lot of problems you can have medically that you don't need to do by just simply playing a tape or just by doing a meditation, which is no danger whatsoever to you.
Right, but why can you do that?
With electrical stimulation, that's a good question.
Synapses are electrochemical, if you will, and the soul is electromagnetic radiation, equivalent to a television or radio signal.
So electricity, being part of electromagnetic, if you will, what you're doing is simply, sort of like static electricity.
You're simply, if you do enough shocks, and if you had enough... No, that makes sense.
Makes sense.
Nitroglycerin for the soul.
How would you respond to that?
Well, again, he's referring to what I alluded to earlier about the Mystery School mentality and about things that are metaphysical, must be evil, or if people, if the average person, just like I'm doing with conscious dying, if the average person doesn't need the agent, namely the minister, priest, or rabbi, then what do you need the church for?
And that goes against self-interest, and that means you must make it evil so people don't do it.
All right, Dr. Goldberg, we are at the end of the program.
Again, they just go like that.
The books that you have out now that are available now are available by calling 1-800-KARMA-4-U.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
It's 1-800-527-6248.
It's a past-life, future-life, valentine book in the search for grace.
I'll also be in Virginia Beach on December 29th and 30th for the A.R.E.
Conscious Dying and Past-Life Regression Workshop.
I'll be in Beverly Hills at the Beth Jacobs Congregation on Olympic Boulevard in Beverly Hills, Los Angeles a week from tonight on the 17th of November.
By the way, your listeners will call me.
I'll be happy to send them a free little hypnotic exercise.
About how they can enter into their own trance without the paralysis that we've discussed and information how they can do their own conscious science here.
All right, and that also is available, same number?
Same number.
All right, 1-800-KARMA for you.
Doctor, thank you.
Thank you, Art.
Take care.
Now look, we've got a lot of good stuff, folks, on the web.
You don't want to miss it.
It's up there now.
A new ghost photograph, a photograph of the demon seeds, a photograph, a new incredible UFO photograph, And all three of my cats.
And all of these photographs, also available, by the way, at the same place you can buy tapes of my programs.
That's 1-800-917-4278.
And get the newsletter, 1-800-917-4278.
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