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Sept. 27, 1996 - Art Bell
35:48
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, Richard C. Hoagland - Egypt Excavation (hour 3)
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Now, here again, Art Bell.
Here again, I am.
My guests are Graham Hancock, Robert Boval, and Richard Hoagland.
The subject is the Sphinx, Giza, in Egypt.
Robert Boval and Graham Hancock were, without ceremony, booted off Giza recently.
They believe the opening of The Sphinx has been cancelled.
Richard Hoagland has new information.
We're going to continue with this discussion in a moment.
The cast of characters includes the man with the money, Mr. Shore, and, of course, the Egyptian government.
And the curator and the caretaker of all of that ancient knowledge awaiting to be opened.
And one must wonder if all of this perhaps might not boil down to Mr. Hancock, Mr. Bouval, Mr. Hoagland and other Americans and Germans and others are simply not going to be welcome when this ancient artifact is opened.
We'll find out.
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All right, back now to Graham Hancock and Robert Duvall and Richard Hoagland.
And you're all back on the air again, gentlemen.
Could there be anything to what I just said?
In other words, all of this that you have related thus far seems to lead me toward believing, and I'm just an outsider, that perhaps those who guard the antiquities want themselves the general credit for the opening and don't want any foreigners involved.
Could that be?
Well, I mean, yes, we're beginning to sense that something of that nature is involved.
Certainly with the latest development for a senior Egyptian official who is the Director General of the Giza Plateau to actually state on the air that he has cancelled the license Robert, I think you put your finger on exactly what's going on.
Let me read you a fax that's come in here.
team itself that suggests to me that they would go to such lengths in Egypt, or at least
that man, Dr. Zahia Weiss would go to such lengths to blur and smokescreen the whole
issue.
Robert, I think you put your finger on exactly what's going on.
Let me read you a fax that's come in here.
When Art and I do shows like this, we basically have a country listening to us, and we have
a lot of sources out there that feed us information either through the internet, which is up live
tonight, or directly through the fax machines here.
Let me read you what just came in.
And the individual who sent me this wants to remain anonymous, so I'm going to respect those wishes.
But let me quote you from the part that I can read.
The real reason I am faxing you my sources, this individual says, in the Foreign Service, have been following your work, meaning here at Enterprise, and Hancock et al., very intently.
They tell me the story behind the cover-up is two-fold.
Islamic fundamentalism will possibly bring the Egyptian government down if Western influence appears to be growing, especially concerning sites which may contradict holy knowledge.
That's the parallel with the extraordinary debacle going on in Israel right now, okay?
Right.
B, this individual says, Jewish leaders also don't want any prior civilizations revealed.
C, Christian leaders are the most paranoid about this.
The real power structures that try to control much of the planet, knowledge, science, economics, etc., Already know and or suspect what is likely in there just as they strongly suspect that what you are saying is also right on.
And I think that particular individual has encapsulated a very important aspect of this, which is we are discussing real knowledge transformation.
If, as we all agree, Graham, Robert, Art, me, That whatever is found there will change the paradigm if it is honestly pursued because of good work which has been done by many people over the years to bring us to this point.
Then that knowledge alone, if handled in an irresponsible manner in some person's perceptions, and I'll come back to that in a minute, could destabilize entire governments.
Again, look at CNN, what's going on in Israel right as we are speaking.
Now, by irresponsible handling, obviously those in power think that those out of power don't know what they're doing.
So there's an extraordinary conservatism on the part of governments, on the part of, you know, people leading institutions to try to control and maintain control of knowledge, particularly knowledge which has potential for radical transformation.
What I think is happening, and this is now a speculation, I think for Egyptian consumption.
There are political statements being made in Egypt, even as we speak, by certain, how should I say, appointed representatives, Dr. Hawass would fall under that category, that may not accord strictly with the facts as they are looked at in a broader context.
In other words, Western influences, Western technology, license pieces being given and all that.
And since you're dealing with a very controlled media environment at home in Egypt...
These statements, by and large, will be taken at face value by the populations to which they are intended.
In other words, gentlemen, we are dealing with geopolitics on an international and potentially larger level.
Richard, can I come in a minute?
Absolutely.
Now that... and I must say that I'm very pleased that we teamed up in April and May in England because I've begun to realize that We, as people who are investigating this from the outside now, have looked upon the situation myself with being in Egypt and trying to find out from Dr. Hawass himself and the Egyptian authorities what is going on, and thank goodness with your contact that you've made with Dr. Shore and Boris Said, at least to know from this end, what is the score?
I have a feeling now that you're far more informed than us concerning the Shor Foundation's work there and their collaboration with Boise and the Florida State.
What are they hoping to find?
Can we tell this to our listeners?
This is what I asked tonight.
I specifically asked Boris and through him, Joe Shore, what it is that I can say regarding our conversation.
And they basically gave me car passes to anything I want.
So let me try to, you know, work through this and bring everyone up to speed at the same time.
Well, as I told you when I talked to you after my five hour meeting, what impressed me about Joe Shore is he was a scientist.
He had yellow pads.
He took copious notes.
I shared a lot with him freely.
In fact, I opened my conversation with him by saying, I'm not here to get anything.
I am here to provide you with information that there has been a high level, how should I use the term, interest on the part of the United States government in what is under the plateau and in the pyramids at Egypt.
And I can prove it from our NASA investigation.
And I laid out for him, With the portable laptop computer that I have with me, the same kind of evidence that I have shared with you, Graham, when I sent you those FedEx packets in Washington several weeks ago, and a similar packet to you, Robert, in England several weeks ago.
And that evidence was so compelling That Joe Shore immediately set in motion certain discussions involving how we can calibrate the accuracy of what is found under these rooms and in these chambers under the plateau.
Excuse me Richard, can you for the sake of the audience lay that evidence out?
What you did send?
Not without a great deal of background and digression, so for the time being, the audience will just have to believe that we're all in agreement that it's pretty important.
It was so interesting that I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, gentlemen, that you, Robert and Graham, decided to write the three-section article for the Daily Mail based in part on the evidence from which the article in the Daily Mail was the issue of possible signs of life in the meteorite from Mars.
Indeed, and following the conferences that we had with you in the UK and England, Richard, I must admit that although we were rather novices on the subject at the time, I have been very, very convinced that there is a lot to investigate here.
And that you've done a great service in bringing this to the attention of the public.
We're referring to your work on Mars.
Now, but could you please carry on with this meeting with Dr. Shore that you've had?
I mean, they must in five hours have told you what they were looking for, and since they've given you carte blanche, please share it with the audience.
Well, what Dr. Shore, you know, admitted to me, as well as he admitted to you, that is, he got very interested in all this because of the Cayce prophecies.
And the astronomical correlations, and in fact, he would hope that if he is allowed to proceed without censorship and without fetters and, you know, in a kind of an investigation that we would all approve of, that he could potentially confirm a very ancient set of artifacts under the plateau that date back to the magical 10,500 or earlier time frame.
He was very open In terms of admitting that that's what he hopes might be found, provided he goes through the proper protocols and satisfies an awful lot of political problems that have to be met when you're doing anything in Egypt.
But this is where we strike a little problem, because when we did suggest that we would inform the public of At least an investigation to look for chambers under this thing.
We were told by Dr. Shore himself, in a written fax to us, that what he was doing there was to look for chasms and faults He said he was concerned about tourists falling through holes in the ground and felt that it was necessary to prospect for faults under the Giza Plateau.
You have to remember this is a plateau with 15 million tons of pyramids on it and we don't know of people falling through holes in the ground.
But one of the things that he specifically threatened to sue us for was mentioning his connection with the Casey Foundation.
So we're very, very amazed to hear what you're telling us right now.
Why do you think that position was taken?
Is it because Dr. Zahia Wise had put pressure on... I think it has to do with domestic politics in Egypt and the sincere difficulty with Islamic fundamentalism and the things we're seeing going on in Israel.
There is a very serious problem.
And Robert, you, having lived there, know that this is not... we're not just making this up.
There are officials who are concerned for their very lives if there is a perception that discoveries are coming out that contradict, as my faction friend here says, holy knowledge and perceptions of these as they currently exist.
And it's this potential for a paradigm shift of stunning proportions.
that i think it made everyone in the middle east particularly around the
plateau now extremely nervous
about western journalists western discussions the idea of openness in the
press the first amendment
and i think the doctor sure that's not speculation i think that he was trying to placate
political forces in egypt when he did not have a look richard excuse me i i
may have a good time very very naive here but i i believe that with
monument of the importance of these which are i repeat uh...
legacy for the whole of mankind it is important for people
not only to savings openly but also to do things openly and most important that
they don't pay one thing publicly and do another thing privately
Our whole campaign has been for the public to be fully informed about this matter.
Well, let me continue with this meeting, because at the meeting you and Robert came up, because I brought you up very forcefully and very specifically, with Rory Millican as my witness.
And Rory Millican is the representative of the Canadian government.
He's the Canadian government rep, yes.
He was there at the meeting.
He was at the meeting, yes.
What I said was that I saw myself in a position to provide information I thought would be important for Dr. Shore in his investigations.
Because of the high-level connections between this government, the American government, and Egypt that can be proven now through the NASA connection, up to and including certain NASA personnel that were pivotally important.
You know, there is a key Egyptian, whose name I don't really want to mention a lot tonight, Who shows up first... Well, share that with the public, Richard.
Well, because I don't... I think you're referring to Farouk El-Baz, are you not?
Well, I would not have done that, Graham, and I wish... Oh, why not?
I thought we were trying to share this with the public.
Graham, this is my information, and I will share exactly politically what is important to move this ball down the field.
Yeah, go on, Richard, go on.
Well, now that you have mentioned his name, this individual turns out to have a very Very important lineage out of Egypt.
His father was a renowned Egyptologist.
He goes to university in Europe.
He then shows up in the United States in the 1960s.
He becomes attached to the NASA program, winds up being pivotal in the site selection of the landing sites on the Moon and the landing sites of the unmanned spacecraft on Mars.
He then leaves NASA And goes into the private university system.
In fact, he's at Boston University, just down the hall from Robert Shock.
I understand that he founded the remote sensing institute at Boston, didn't he?
Yes, yes he did.
He then shows up in a 1987 expedition back to Egypt, ostensibly looking at the second
solar boat pit with Apollo Lunar NASA technology and a couple of astronauts came with him.
He then shows up, the same individual, as being placed in charge of opening the room
at the end of the shaft leading out toward the southern sky and Sirius from the Queen's
You're absolutely right, and this is where we were stunned in that this statement was made in the Egyptian press in March of this year by Dr. Zahi Hawass himself, who, as I understand, is a very, very good and personal friend of Dr. Ferkelberg.
Well, Dr. El-Baz, I was able to demonstrate to Joe Shore, is a pivotal figure connecting the NASA evidence we have of its extraordinary and sustained interest in Egypt, in Egyptian mythology, in the constellations of Osiris, Orion, Sirius, Canis Major, Aldebaran, Taurus, That whole Duat region of the sky shows up not only in key NASA documentation relating to the space program, but in terms of personnel connecting Egypt and the American space program.
And when I laid all this out to Joe Shore, my reason for doing it was to basically say, look Joe, we're all playing in a sandbox where there have been lots of other people before us With much higher power and connections and agendas that we are not aware of, be careful.
And he has apparently taken that victim to heart, and one of the things he has done is to invite me to be present.
And another thing he did at my urging was to tender an invitation to you gentlemen to have a private meeting with him.
And I know that the substance of that meeting was to discuss how you can be present also when these investigations are pursued on the plateau.
I would like to state immediately in response to that, Richard, that we cannot be party to anything about which the public is not fully informed.
That may be naive, it may not be geopolitical, but we think that absolute honesty and openness and public accountability are essential in this matter.
All right, gentlemen, let's hold it right there.
It's obvious where we're going from there, at least it is to me.
And so we'll pick up on that exact point when we come back.
I'm Art Bell.
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It is, and this may be, about It may be all about where we started from.
All of us.
That's what we're talking about.
What may lie between the Sphinx, uh, between, beneath the Sphinx, it may have to do with our origins.
It is a non-trivial issue.
Discussing it, Graham Hancock, Robert Duvall, in Delaware, and Richard Hoagland in Manhattan.
And we'll get back to them in a moment.
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800-848-7120. 800-848-7120. Back now to Graham Hancock, Robert Buval in Delaware, and Richard
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Hoagland in Manhattan. And I believe that, Graham, you were just saying you could be no part of,
not part of any expedition in which the American public was not fully informed, or the world,
The public of the world has to be fully informed on this matter.
We see no excuse, justification, or reason for secrecy, whether on the grounds of geopolitics or any other form of politics. This is about
human knowledge. It's the most sacred issue in the world.
And what has been the tragedy of this site over more than the last 20 years has been the secrecy,
the double standards, the disinformation.
I'm here, yes, of course I'm here.
presented to the public by many different parties concerned with the
Giza necropolis and what Robert and I are trying to do is to shed some honest
light on this matter and bring the facts before the public and therefore we can't
be part of anything which does not involve that. And I'm sure Richard,
Richard is still here. I'm here yes of course I'm here.
Hence the reason why we we sided with you in London and leave Richard is very much
your long-standing campaign to have the matter concerning the Sidoni Enigma,
the Mars monuments issue brought to the public in an open way.
We believe that you and us stand for the same thing.
And at this stage, I think that we hope that you'll support this openness.
Well, I do see that.
I'm very, very pleased that you have this carte blanche statement by Joe Shore to let us know what went on.
Let me, let me, let me... Let me make a couple of points.
Let me make a couple of points.
One of the things that I was apprehensive of concerning conversations that you and I had had in England Is that there would be some kind of documents that I would be asked to sign or agreements I would be asked to make that would curtail the freedom of inquiry, Graham, that I totally concur should be a part of any investigation of something of this nature.
And I am very pleased to report tonight that there have been absolutely zero Uh, conditions attached to my involvement, participation, witnessing, presence, broadcasting, uh, live from the plateau of whatever I see, or in terms of discussions and looking at evidence prior to the actual opening that we are supposed to be, you know, uh, in, in, in, involved in at some level, uh, prior to my going or what I do when I get there.
And if there had been any conditions, if I had been asked to sign documents, for instance, not acknowledging that, you know, I've been a strong supporter of John Anthony West.
I extraordinarily acknowledge that his historical perspective in all this and his place in history for having had the tenacity for 15 years to pursue the truth that ultimately wound up with real serious geological redating of the Sphinx itself with the assistance of Bob Schalk and others.
And if I've been asked to sign a document, you know, claiming that I don't know John, I obviously wouldn't have signed it.
Alright, Richard, I asked Graham and Robert about John Anthony West, why he was given the big boot.
Now let me ask you, why?
Well, I have some personal knowledge here, and I don't want to tell tales out of school, so I'm going to frame my words very carefully.
And Graham, please allow me to frame my own words, okay?
I can't frame your words for you, Richard.
Thank you, thank you.
John, we all know that John is... No, don't frame our thoughts for us.
You just frame your words, Richard.
Has anyone here heard of a hair shirt?
Do you know what a hair shirt is?
You're going to make an opinion.
Please state it.
Well, John tends to rub people the wrong way sometimes.
He is extremely Direct, sometimes to the point of being overly direct, and at times he is extraordinarily undiplomatic.
And I know from personal knowledge that we actually like about him.
Yeah, we really admire that in John.
The openness and the honesty and the fearlessness in defending principle and truth.
Well, but in this case, what John did was not defend principle and truth.
He took a very direct personal shot at Zahi Hawass when Dr. Hawass was down.
And without going into great detail, Zai Hawass, because of this, developed an extraordinary personal animosity.
This is at the level Are they a food fight at some level between John West and Zayi Hawass?
Personalities.
Personality.
Extraordinary personality problems occasioned because of both individuals who are very strong-willed.
And you know them both, right, gentlemen?
Yeah.
You're aware.
I've shown you the documents.
The fact is that when that Rubicon was crossed, when John West, for whatever reason, and I know, Robert, you urged him not to do that, who counseled him to be far more diplomatic, when he took
those steps, he basically, you know, cut himself off by his own choice and own action, because
the reaction on the other side, where opinions and attitudes and emotions are very strongly
held in the Middle East, was violent and flung back in his face, so to speak. What I
urged him not to do was to take a position that would cause a confrontation with Joe Shore
at the time.
But he took on Joe Shore after this personal thing with Zia Hawass. The point is...
That, you know, I cannot agree with what John did, but I can totally support his investigation, his right to history, and his right to be acknowledged as a leader in opening this whole situation so that we can have this discussion.
Richard, can I just say this?
I mean, what you said about Dr. Hawass' attitude to John West is absolutely correct, but he's not the only one who has suffered from this.
Almost paranoid attitude that Hawass has demonstrated concerning all these affairs.
We've had the same thing with the German robotic engineer, Rudolf Gantenbrink, who has been very much abused by Dr. Hawass in certain statements.
Well, see, I don't know Gantenbrink.
I do know John.
And aren't asking me about John.
John West was not the only one who was involved with the Sphinx project that took place in 1990.
There's been heavy abuse on the credibility of Robert Shock, for example.
So, John West, in a sense, is one of the persons who has suffered from the virulent attacks from Hawass, and now we find ourselves in the same boat.
Frankly, these personal games and animosities are not something that anybody should pander to.
I think it's important to come back to the basic issue that we're dealing with monuments of extraordinary importance which should not be subjected to such petty and vile behavior on the part of the authorities responsible for them.
I totally agree, Graham, and unfortunately we're dealing with human beings and they sometimes don't live up to their higher No, what I'm arguing for is I, for some reason, and I am quite mesmerized by this, have been tendered an invitation to be present when something important may go down.
If that accords with your conscience and your feeling that it is good, then we suggest that you should go.
But personally, I will not go under those circumstances.
Well, but the circumstances are there are no fetters.
But I have been able to clarify why Zahi Hawass is making public statements that this entire project does not exist anymore, whereas Joseph Shore, according to you, is making statements to you which you have been given carte blanche to broadcast that it is going ahead.
This is a very bizarre contradiction, one of many contradictions surrounding these monuments which make it impossible for the public to know exactly what's going on.
Well, but the way they're going to know is if one of us or two of us or all of us are there to report.
Well, I think that it should not be a matter for us, actually.
It should be a matter for the world media to be present.
I don't think Richard Hoagland is actually enough here.
I think that we need the entire media of the world present every instant of this opening, and nothing less will do.
Well, I think that there are... I think you should insist on that, actually, Richard, since you've had so much influence with Joe Shore.
Say again?
I think you should insist on the media of the world being present.
Well, I think the media are going to be present.
I must say that this contradicts a statement of another interview that was given by Zahia Wass To an American network, an American TV independent company.
He was interviewed by... Dave Bell.
Dave Bell interviewed him.
Dave Bell, kind of our Dave Bell interview.
And he actually said, I mean he, Dr. Havass, actually said that he will not allow journalists
at the Giza Plateau.
But he said he won't allow journalists even into the pyramids, never mind under the Sphinx.
So, what's going on, Richard?
I mean, I tend to believe that what Joseph Shore is saying is utterly correct.
I'm very pleased that he has come out and has expounded to you his intentions and he's decided to be totally open about this matter.
We commend this and we're fully behind this.
What we are still puzzled is the contradiction of information at the most stunning and extraordinary level coming from Dr. Zahia Wise himself on this matter.
But can I return to this meeting that you've had with Dr. Shore?
Sorry, I have to say this.
It's very important that people understand this and I want to say this very, very strongly.
This cannot be a private party at the Sphinx.
This is a public affair and it must involve the world media to the fullest extent possible.
Richard Hoagland alone cannot represent the world public on this issue.
Graham, I'm a little puzzled because you say I can't represent it alone and I'm saying that Dr. Shore wants you to be there and you say you can't be there.
I will be very happy to be there as long as the world's media is present.
I don't want to play any part in a private party.
Alright, let's find out how much media is invited.
You alluded to me earlier in the day, alluded to the fact that somebody representing the Fox network, perhaps.
Well, there are several networks which are, how should I say, in negotiation.
Okay.
So I can represent that.
Let me say very specifically that Boris Saeed asked me tonight to have you call him, alright, at home.
To discuss your presence, Art, Art Bell, on the Plateau, representing the audiences listening to us across America tonight.
Alright, so I'm some... What I'm seeing, let me interrupt... I'm some... What I'm seeing here is a pattern of openness... Hold on, Richard.
I'm some media, and I'd be very pleased to be there, and we have a very good audience, but it is radio, and there needs to be more media there, television, Print journalists, and I think that's... It's important to understand that the invitation does have to come from the Egyptian government.
Joe Shore or Boris Zayed, I'm afraid, are not in position to make invitations on behalf of the government of Egypt.
But they can intercede and represent, in terms of good offices, that individuals, media representatives, institutions and all that... Can we be a bit more... Richard, Robert Bovard here.
Can we be a bit more specific as to what exactly this invitation entails?
You are invited, or whoever is invited, to observe what exactly?
What do you know about it?
Well, let me dig out my copy of the facts here.
It says, and I will quote... Let me see, where are we here?
Okay.
This is happy to confirm our invitation to join us on the plateau during the last week in October, the first week of November 96, when we hope to be opening the first of the underground chambers Which the shore expedition has discovered beneath the limestone of the Giza Plateau.
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