Luba Brezhnev warns of Russia’s 1996 election chaos, where Boris Yeltsin’s corruption and tax exemptions for oligarchs risk hyperinflation, leaving 90,000 children trafficked amid collapsing hospitals and rising suicide rates. She reveals stolen nuclear materials sold to China/Pakistan and abandoned submarines threatening global disasters, while dismissing Zuganov’s socialism as opportunistic. Meanwhile, Art Bell dissects Clinton’s 1996 scandals—400 FBI files sent to the White House—with Biden calling it "frightening," yet polls show Clinton’s 18-point lead over Dole. Bell laments public indifference to systemic decay, quoting Madison: democracy hinges on citizens’ virtue. Both episodes expose fragile institutions and eroding trust in 1996’s political landscapes. [Automatically generated summary]
From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening and good morning across all these many time zones stretching from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Islands in the West eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands and my friends at St. Thomas.
In fact, all the islands, really, south into South America and north to the pole.
This is Coast to Coast A.M. In fact, worldwide on the internet.
I'm Art Bell.
Good morning.
unidentified
It's going to be a very interesting, interesting morning.
She is the niece of Leonid Brezhnev, who for so long ruled the Soviet Union.
And we're going to be talking about Russia, what's going on, what's likely to go on, the elections or the runoff elections coming up, and lots of very, very interesting things.
In a moment, while I was on the air last night, here's what cleared the Reuters newswire.
Lead item.
Russian President Boris Yeltsin is shaking things up in Moscow.
Yeltsin has fired three top conservative officials, including his bodyguard, the head of the Federal Security Service, and his conservative first deputy prime minister.
These firings follow an overnight security alert that was ordered after the security chief and bodyguard detained, get this, detained two members of Yeltsin's re-election team who were later released.
The newly appointed security aide to Yeltsin, Alexander Lebed, said the arrests of the Yeltsin campaign workers shows that hardliners are trying to stop next month's presidential runoff election between Yeltsin and communist leader Gennady Zaganov.
Then this, today, folks, communist presidential challenger Gennady Zuganov painted a stark picture on Thursday of Russia sliding into civil war following the latest bout of Kremlin intrigue and personnel changes.
Zuganov, leader of the bloc of National Patriotic Forces, issued a statement and said that President Boris Yeltsin was out of control and warning that the second round of elections scheduled for July 3rd risked being canceled.
He said, quote, the National Patriotic Bloc declares that the motherland is in danger.
The internal squabbling around the decrepit Boris Yeltsin, who is increasingly losing control, could spill over into a bitter civil conflict and lead to tragic consequences.
Suganov, who trailed Yeltsin by less than three percentage points in Sunday's first round of voting, said Yeltsin's sacking of three top officials on Thursday showed he's trying to cling desperately to power.
Said, quote, every day there are announcements about mythical plots and coups.
In seeking to keep power, the president is changing his team feverishly.
That's I predicted before that Russia won't let us sleep peacefully anyway.
The election on June 16 is just the beginning of the different surprises.
So and as I predicted before, that if Yeltsin loses, it will be the end of the democracy and the beginning of the dictatorship because he won't give up.
So if Zuganov loses, and it seems to me that it will happen, it means nothing because it will lead some conflicts and probably bloody conflicts.
And I was absolutely sure because of this before this event that is happening now in Russia.
But because both sides had very strong intention to receive this power.
But what most important for me is not who will be the president, but it's really important right now who he will surround the president because any president, and we already had this example with Garbachev and Yeltsin and with my father, with my uncle, I'm sorry.
So any president in Russia is under very strong influence of the people around them.
What really happened with Yeltsin?
Yeltsin didn't rule all these four years.
Just the people around them, the corrupt, totally and deeply corrupt people influence him.
And it seems to me that he has some chance to lose his power, by the way, because most of people right now don't believe in any possibility to build this democracy.
But I'm really glad that General Lebetz has the third place in the election.
And it seems to me that either way, he will be in the government, either if Garbachev, or I'm sorry, Yeltsin will win or Duganov.
But like any human being, if you ask me about Lebet, I remember that you asked me this morning if I like General Lebetz.
Like any human being, he has his own shortcomings.
Of course, he is a teen soldier with education for me.
And his political activity has been at the level of the military barracks.
He lacks the modesty of Marshal Zhuka, for example.
I knew Marshal Zhuka very well.
But he is more honest, smart, and decent than the rest.
And that's something in the situation that will come very soon.
If he's not killed or in some way brought under control, and if Yeltsin lets him replace the people surrounding the president, then we can hope that General Lebed will be able to solve the main problems that Russia has, not only Russia, but the whole world.
I mean, the nuclear situation.
You know, this in the former Soviet Union, there are more than six million warheads right now.
And the second is the problem with the corruption and crime.
We cannot also rule out the possibility of a conflict between two strong personalities like Lebanon and Yeltsin.
And it seems to me that General Lebed isn't capable of compromise.
He's the torture of General Lebed like IC.
By the way, General Lebesgue is the first in the whole history of Russia, the first military person who participates in the race for power.
Russia never had any experience with the Professional military uh president or with any military dictatorship.
All right, let's take the best case situation, Luba.
If uh General Levitt is successful and uh mr. Yeltsin allows him to purge some of the corrupt officials uh in in the government there now, is it likely he will be the next president?
If he if he will survive, he'll I don't know, because he has it seems to me that he can be killed, murdered.
Because the people that right now around Yeltsin, unfortunately, it's very corrupt people.
They are messed with this idea of so-called democracy.
Most of them amassed a huge, huge fortunes.
And as long as I know, as far as I know, General Lebesgue had the intention first of all to arrest some of them, probably to sue them, or at least to ask him to give back a half of their money.
And I remember he promised to legalize the other half of money.
And it will be only one way to restore the economic system because Russia right now doesn't have any money at all.
No, I'm absolutely sure that Russia won't never go back to these old good days.
I mean to the socialism or to the communism.
It will be in some way, of course, we can expect some aspects of the socialism, the former former system.
But I'm absolutely, first of all, these new generations of so-called communists, I mean Zuganov, they, you know, I don't see really the big difference between Zuganov and Yeltsin and Garbachev.
All of them are the sons of the same mother.
Just Yeltin and Garbachev were a kind of prodigal sons.
And Zyuganov still plays the role of the faithful son of his mother, that's all.
But all of them, it seems to me that especially Garbachev and Yeltsin, both of them are just opportunists because you see that Garbachev took advantage of this idea of peace work.
It was just idea because it was the right way, like he thought it's the right way to save the socialism and save the position of Nemin Klatura, that's all.
And they took advantage of this idea and he made a generally known image and a big fortune because right now he's a very rich person.
So how Yeltsin is opportunist too because in order to get rid of Garbachev, he broke up, he ruined a big powerful country.
It was a kind of satisfaction of this ambition.
He didn't think about the democracy or about future people.
It was just one way to get the power, that's all.
Zuganov, it seems to me, Zuganov, that it's a kind of adventurer because I'm absolutely sure that he won't be able to pull the country from this abyss.
I think that right now we need to appreciate any normally thinking and strong-willed and educated, intelligent person, the top of this former Soviet Union of Russia, because we need it.
It's not in the interest of America to see Russia weak and poor, because don't forget Russia has a very dangerous neighborhood.
I mean China.
But I'm not sure that Zuganov is strong and educated and intelligent, diplomatic and tactful person enough.
You know what?
For me, communists are communists because the people who have spent all their lives studying this, the Marxism-Leninism principles, they aren't suited for anything else.
So my mother, I belong to this family, to mother who really hated this system, the Soviet system.
But from the other side, from the other hand, I belong to the family of my father who builded this system.
But anyway, my stepfather was a great person, and both of my parents never were the communists, and we never talk about communism, about socialism.
My parents gave me wonderful classical education.
So, and probably it helped me a lot when I came to Moscow.
I was very young, and like all young people, stupid, but this good education, right education, helped me to understand what was going on around me in Moscow.
I was in some way I was involved in this palace school that my uncle organized in October 1964.
I knew about this palace school.
It just happened.
I knew about this on the fall, probably in September, in October 1963.
And I kept a silence, of course, and my father shared the full information about what was going on about in the situation.
And when I was in Moscow, when I lived in Moscow in the big hotel, Ma Moscow, the same name, Moscow, the my uncle and my father made from my room, or my room in the hotel, and kind of con I don't know what is this, underground apartment.
It's the place where they meet with the people and discuss this conspiracy against the Khrushchev.
So and it seems to me that at that time I knew a lot about this palace school.
But later, just my uncle rose to power.
I fell in love with the military pilot from Germany.
By the way, my father introduced me to this military pilot.
And we fell in love with each other and we planned to get married.
And the agents of KGB, of course, involved in this situation, they started to bother us both and to spy us and to harass me.
And finally, they beat me up twice and seriously wounded and I had a miscarriage.
And I tried to find some sympathy and support from this side of my uncle because I knew that my uncle was in the big love during the war.
But it was in vain because he explained to me, I protected and defended him many times.
I'm sick and tired of you.
And right now, I'm not your uncle.
I'm a general secretary.
It's against the rule to go to the to get married with, to get to go to to go abroad for the relatives of the general secretary.
So and I thought that it was just the story with the military pilot and the manuscript of salgionism that the agents of KGB have found in my room were just the reasons to force me to work for them.
They asked me to write the reports against the people around my uncle, around my father.
And right now, even right now, the doctors here in America, I'm lucky to be in America.
They're trying to help me.
Now I feel much better.
Much better.
I have two doctors who take care of my health.
So now you can imagine how I feel or the people like me feel right now seeing this, the former agents of KGB, not only former, but the present-day agents of KGB here in America.
As far as I know, we have only there about three, probably five percent of the very wealthy people and 20, probably 20, six or something like that, are surviving in some indifferent way.
But about 70% of people are poor.
Russian people are, you know, that right now are dying out.
Well, they must give up because if the Communists come back, the only way Communism ever did survive was to expand to take other countries and to take wealth from other countries as it expanded.
When it could no longer expand, that is when it collapsed.
And I'm sure that if the Communists will be back, the first step they will make will be the restoration of the former Soviet Union.
It's possible to do only in one way, it's by force.
And if the Communists will come back, you know, choosing Yeltsin is the lesser of two evils.
Everybody understands it right now, okay?
But at the same time, if the Communists will be back, it will lead a lot of bloody conflicts and repression, and, you know, and especially the economic blockade from the Western countries and from America.
But also, what I think would happen is there will be a few points difference in the election.
Yeltsin will probably win, but that leaves still almost half the people who wanted communism and the iron rule back again.
They wanted the Soviet Union back again, almost half.
And in Russia, if you look at all of history, including that of your uncle and so many more, when you have that many people in opposition, you're going to have Palace coups, you're going to have maybe even a civil war.
When three weeks ago and two weeks, I tried to explain to Americans this situation, believe me, they were surprised.
I told him that I'm not concerned about the election on June 16th because it's just the beginning.
I'm concerned how will be the end of this election.
And we can expect anything, even the civil war right now.
And, you know, my friends, some friends, American friends just asked me, please don't scare Americans with this expression, civil war, sounds so terrible.
But I told him, no, I would like to give them the truth about the situation.
And America, believe me, that we can expect even unexpected.
And our press right now, Luba, is barely, just barely reporting on what really is going on in Russia.
Really, they're not reporting.
We're getting just sort of the top of the news, and these guys got fired, or those guys got fired, but nobody is explaining to the American people what it means.
So the American people really don't understand, and they think everything's okay.
First reason that Russia and former Soviet republics have had a communism system, Communist system for more than 70 years, and leaders and people don't know how to do anything else.
And if both are performing poorly just because of a lack of practice, for me, it's the case of the blind leading the blind.
But the main problem, the main reason why democracies failed is the people in charge now are mainly the same good old boys as before.
And the fact that two-thirds of Russian millionaires are the former members of the Communist Party proves it.
And not only the former members, but most of them are former officials.
So it means the nomenclature.
And the implementation of the slogan, democratization, was crudely heavy-handed because the attributes of power are the same.
And even worse than before, it's inability to find creative solutions, lack of professionalism, lack of morality, lack of conscience, sinism, greediness, and even stupidity.
You know what really happened?
That for a long time, voices of reason have been proposing that instead of the former nomenclature with all its vices and outstanding mediocrity, the country should have as leaders people with perfect reputation, educated, strong-willed, and creative.
And we missed, the whole world missed a very good opportunity to get rid not only of the Communist Party, but of the Soviet nomenclature forever.
Just Russia has had only one way to get rid of them, to sue the Communist Party, like it happened in Nuremberg with this fascist party, and to proclaim this Communist Party criminal and unhuman.
So and the first it seems to me that nuclear situation is the first problem that we have to worry about and the question of nuclear weapons must be discussed really very seriously right now.
The Cold War is dead, but instead we now have the year of nuclear terrorism.
One is Russian nuclear warheads getting into the hands of people we don't want to have them and or a return to communism before we can dismantle all of Russia's nuclear weapons.
I'm absolutely sure that they'll never, never will get with all nuclear weapons.
It's absolutely impossible.
I know the mentality of this former or present-day communist.
And don't forget, any government in Russia, probably except Ms. Yeltsin, understand that we, don't forget, we always had very dangerous neighborhoods, that's China.
And I remember that all people were against this, but he explained to me that as long as we love each other with China, Russia and China, we'll use it for our commercial relationship, okay?
But when we'll stop to love each other, we'll deliver our missiles just in China, inside of China.
We'll use it this railroad line.
So, and you know, it's true because in some way he was right, because who centers China has had designs on the east part of Russia.
Top of the morning to you, my guest, is the niece of Leonid Brezhnev, Luba Brezhnev.
And we're talking about Russia.
We're talking about nuclear weapons because that's, frankly, why we care about Russia, isn't it?
And what's going on right now that is not very well being reported in the American press.
The American people don't even have a clue about what's going on and that is dangerous.
We'll get back to her in a moment.
This is a very, very unusual opportunity for you to speak with Luba Brezhnev.
She's in the Bay Area.
She's in the US.
She is the niece of Leonid Brezhnev, who ruled the Soviet Union for a couple of decades.
She is not, and nor has she been a communist.
She was beaten by the KGB.
She lost a baby because of the KGB, suffered severe bodily harm, as a matter of fact, from the KGB, and has a lot to say about what's going on in Russia right now.
So if you would like to ask her a question, here you go.
First time callers, 702-727-1222.
The wildcard line, 702-727-1295.
West of the Rockies, 1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies, 1-800-825-5033.
Just one thing for you, Luba.
We have an expression here in America that desperate people do desperate things.
And the Russian people are certainly desperate right now, aren't they?
What really happened, I would like to explain to Americans.
Before, I mean, that's at the time of my uncle, too ideologically opposed superpowers, kept nuclear weapons under strict control.
And the danger of war was more of a psychological threat than anything else.
But now, the situation changed, and the likelihood of an explosion at any point of the planet is extremely tangible and concrete.
And I would like to explain why.
First of all, some of people, I mean, there's the people who belong to the Russian corruption, they made their first money selling the natural resources and the nuclear materials.
Nuclear materials was one of the favorite articles, commerce.
Yeah, the enormous quantities of these materials are being stolen and sold on the black market to the different countries like Pakistan and China.
And there does exist a demand for the nuclear weapons.
Many states and terrorist groups are capable of constructing a simple nuclear device.
So second point that really I'm concerned about is on the territory of the former Soviet Union, first of all, I already mentioned that they have more than 16 million of warheads.
So on the territory of the former Soviet Union, particularly in the Bena Hotko on the Pacific coast of Russia, unused and unneeded nuclear submarines are being stationed.
And their condition is dangerous, leaving no doubt that sooner or later one of them will explode.
And it will be the second Chernobyl.
And this is a threat not only on Russia, but for the whole world.
Yes.
And it seems to me that now we have to be the the the world needs to be more concerned how to solve the problems this uh this the nuclear situation, how to help the people to solve the the the social problems is the most important.
You know, it seems to me that this SU so Soviet Union, former Soviet Union, was play uh played the role of the watchman and for the security of the whole world.
It's absolutely the same because the Boeing system, communism and such, first of all, communism, it's just it's just a dream, blue dream of some sick people, because they'll never build this kind of system, communism.
But socialism, I don't see any difference because, you know, in the Bose way, we have the same government, communists.
I know that Russia, fortunately, is rich of the wonderful people.
I see I don't I I I cannot give this outlook for the future because I don't know how will be the behavior of General Lebis, but it seems to me that he is able to solve solve a lot of problems.
I like Yuri Vlasov, but Americans don't know too much about Yuri Vlasov.
Dmitry, who would you like to be the next president?
unidentified
Well, I see, I guess Yeltsin is a good choice because he is predictable to a certain extent and I believe that he will be able to push reforms forward.
And I'm pretty optimistic about Russia, Russia's future, Russia's economy in the future.
And I believe that Russia will be one of the greatest countries in the next century.
Well, maybe alone with the United States, I'm not sure about that.
I would like to be optimist, too, but I'm really a pessimist.
But the pessimist is the optimist with more information.
Probably I know a little bit more than you do.
But I can ask you too, if Yeltsin, he was a president more than four years, almost five years, it seems to me, yes?
So and he didn't solve no one problem at all.
He was sleeping.
He looks like a Russian bear, you know, who got a prey and then he went to sleep for four years for all winter.
Now he was waking up and he's trying to solve some problems.
Believe me, I found his behavior in the current election campaign downright unethical because using his presidential power, he has grabbed control of the powerful news media.
And it seems to me that he has not yet started acting like a human being and stopped acting like a communist.
unidentified
Well, as far as I know, most of Russian media supported Yeltsin without any pressure because they just did not want Ghana to get elected because if he would get elected, any free media in Russia would be over.
And they certainly realized that Yeltsin was their only chance that free market free media in Russia would still exist after this election.
And as far as his presidential campaign style is concerned, I mean, that's perfectly Russian style.
Americans have their own style and Russians have their own.
Yes, I absolutely agree that any country had its own way to build a democracy, but all of them finally got the same result.
They are prosperous.
Most of them are prosperous.
But it seems to me that Russia didn't need to imitate America.
And probably it might be better to go its own course and according its own historical and psychological and economical background and taking into account the mentality of Russian people.
We cannot ignore the fact that it was America in particular that was urging Russia to adapt, for example, radical economic reforms too quickly.
And the privatization and the denationalization carried out over the last three years have lead to great deal of criminality.
And, you know, it seems to me that Russia, right now, Russian people, most of Russian people, especially poor average people, they don't trust America anymore.
Yeah, they have the nostalgia of these old good days, not only because it was the time of their youth or their love or their life, but because they really have nostalgia because any system has some positive sides too.
It seems to me, even if I hated communism and socialism, this stupid idea.
But anyway, we cannot deny this even the Soviet system has some positive sides.
Everybody had a job.
Everybody had a roof above their heads.
Everybody had some bread, some food, or some clothes.
My guest is the niece of Leonette Brezhnev, who ran the Soviet Union with an iron hand for two decades.
She is Luba Brezhnev.
She's in the Bay Area.
She's now here in America.
But she sure does keep up on what's going on back home.
If you have a question for her, we'd be glad for you to call it in.
And I've got one myself, and then we'll go to the phones heavily in this half hour.
Back to my guest now, Luba Brezhnev, and I have one fast question for you, Luba.
If there is a civil war in what used to be the Soviet Union, no matter how it would start, is there a possibility that nuclear weapons would be used in such a conflict?
Nothing special because it seems to me that Zaganov doesn't care especially about religious.
This terrible time just gone.
It's never be back.
I'm sure that these so-called communists, I don't know, like Zuganov, they are different.
I'm sure that the religion, the churches won't have any problems.
Not because I'm trying to defend them at all, but it seems to me that they will be more concerned about the economic situation and how to make an order all this mess.
I really wasn't allowed to do anything until I was about 18.
I got my first taste of freedom when I went off to college.
And when I had that freedom, I immediately began binge drinking and eating and staying up all night and sleeping with everyone that I possibly could and doing all sorts of things with questionable legality.
And it really took me about four years to straighten out my act and get back to school after I failed out.
And now I finally managed to get my life together on 30.
I'm just wondering if maybe you think that what went on in Russia is just sort of what went on with Maya.
People had freedom and they just didn't know how to deal with it and they just sort of went crazy.
And maybe now that they've seen what happens if they don't temper their freedom, they'll just sort of tone down on their own at a social level.
That it seems to me that some people, most of people, unfortunately, they don't know what exactly to do with this freedom.
And this kind of freedom can be freedom can be very dangerous if the people don't understand that this freedom first of all is the very high responsibility.
You know, mafia, right now, mafia is just only 10% of the corrupt people.
So it's not a big deal.
It seems to me that the corruption, Russian corruption, is much more dangerous than Mafia.
It will be very easy to, you know, to I don't know, to make in the order the situation with Mafia, but the corrupt people who in ch who is in charge right now are much more danger than mafia.
Mafia was everywhere in the ND and all this time, and it's Italy and even in in in America.
But the problem is, you know, I would like to add something about the people who are ready to vote for the communists.
We can understand the people, these poor people who are starving because they miss this financial situ financial stability and free medical care that they had, cheap rent, all this stuff, okay?
But We cannot understand, probably it's hard to understand some wealthy people, business people, who will give their votes to for the communists.
And I thought about this long time and finally I understood because most of these people have some profession.
And after this reform, this new time, perhaps Troika and democracy, they in order to survive, they left their job and they start to they became the business people.
Now they're wealthy, they made the money, and they understood that money makes us comfortable.
That doesn't doesn't give the satisfaction, doesn't make us happy.
And the doctors want now to treat the people.
The profession would like to be back to the universe to the university.
Do you understand what I mean?
They miss the normal life, the professional life right now, even if they're wealthy and financially stable.
I don't see that it's really possible that the monarchy will be back because it seems to me that it's so far from Russia and you know more than about eighty years and it seems to me that it's too late to restore the monarchy.
Probably if Russia will be completely in despair, we'll try different ways and finally we'll understand that it's only one way.
Probably they will be back, but I don't see any way.
Is there a possibility of setting up a computerized program through the Internet in which the Russian businessmen who speak fluent English in Russian language could set up a chat form in which American businessmen can contact them who only speak English so that they could set up a partnership to start businesses in Russia that might help bring about a more democratic economical system?
Okay, well, Chelebinsk is sort of like Los Alamos here.
And there's only about 120 metric tons of plutonium that is weapons grade in the former Soviet Union.
And they can burn it in their BN600 reactor, a fast reactor up in Belyarsk.
And they have plans to build more fast reactors.
And in our country, the Clinton administration decided to cancel the integral fast reactor, which would have burned all the weapons plutonium in our country.
I was wondering if Yeltsin could have had the plant up and running last year, but the Duma was pressured by environmental groups and Greenpeace and all these other left-wing organizations.
Yeah, I'm not sure that Yeltsin really is able to solve this problem.
First of all, in Russia we have a lot of material, nuclear materials.
And it seems to me that we have only one way to create an international bulk of plutonium, at least as a temporary solution of the task of elimination of all plutonium in the world.
But I don't believe that Yeltsin really even tried to solve this problem because first, it's it's cost very expensive, it's cost enormously expensive and Russia doesn't have this money.
Or even if they have this money, this money is in on the foreign accounts of this, the corrupt people.
I would like to, but my parents and my, my relatives, ask to stay where they, where I am, because they would like to see me.
If I'll get the citizenship American citizenship, and probably I will very soon, on July or August, so I can come there as a citizen of America, probably I'll be in touch in some way.
They give me a lot of support, moral support, I and I feel very comfortable with Americans, very comfortable and not so comfortable with the Yeltsin government.
And I really thought that you deserve the opportunity to hear what's really going on in Russia.
And in many ways, how meaningless this election is in view of the condition of that country.
And I wanted to hear it myself.
As you know, I'm going to Moscow, and I've thought this over carefully, and I've received many stern warnings from many people, now including Ms. Brezhnev.
I know it's not safe, but you know, a lot of things you do in life are not safe.
I want to see it.
I really want to see it.
I'm told that Moscow now is like our old West times many times.
In other words, it's very dangerous.
But I'll try and stay in safe, relatively safer places, and I just, I want to see it.
That's all.
Now, briefly, the news of the day.
The Clinton White House is under siege.
They could make a movie about it.
White House under siege.
It's getting worse quickly.
The administration is under very heavy political fire as several separate investigations proceed in Congress concurrently.
The sexiest of them is the FBI file problem.
400-plus files ordered to the White House.
The White House said, well, it was just a minor military functionary and it was an administrative blunder.
So yesterday, and I got to see them live on CNN, the Senate held hearings, and the White House story didn't quite hold up.
See, the White House had said, well, we got this outdated list from the Secret Service.
They gave it to us.
Just one minor little problem.
The Secret Service came to testify and said, wrong.
Not only did we not give you the list or give the White House the list, but our computer could not even have generated such a list.
So, how did that list get to the White House?
Nobody knows.
Who's going to investigate this tangled web of political trouble?
Janet Reno says the Justice Department, represented by the FBI, can't do it.
It's conflict of interest.
See, the special prosecutor had said, sorry, I don't have the authority.
And he threw it back to justice.
And Janet Reno, properly, actually, has said it is a conflict of interest.
We cannot have the FBI investigating who transferred the FBI files.
That makes sense.
So she has asked that the special prosecutor be given the authority to do this.
And by the way, this is Ken Starr, who yesterday the White House criticized as perhaps not the right man for the job.
Now they want him to do this, and they say they have every confidence he will do it well.
Even the Democrats on the Senate committee cannot believe what they're hearing.
Now, Senator Joe Biden, who would normally be four square right in the administration's corner, yesterday said, quote, referring to the Clinton administration.
Now listen to this, quote, are they as stupid as they appear to be?
Are they as incompetent as they appear to be?
And if that's all it is, that's still bad.
But there's a second question, and very important one indeed.
Was this done to get information and dirt for political reasons?
Now, if that's what it is, it's dangerous and it's frightening because this is Big Brother.
If they did it, and I suspect it is the case, so they might get dirt on their enemies, then welcome to 1984, a few years late.
That is the action of a police state, not a democratic republic.
And so this is, in many ways, very, very chilling.
And this is not an overuse of that word.
Already what the White House said about how they got the list is pure BS.
Secret Service didn't give it to them.
So, what?
They lied?
Another bureaucratic blunder.
This looks dirtier and dirtier and dirtier by the moment.
Prosecutors are accusing a senior White House aide of conspiring to hide bank withdrawals for the president's Arkansas gubernatorial re-election, 1990.
It's very serious.
These scandals now pointed at the White House are very, very serious, and all of this may well now explode in the president's face before the election.
And so as I've been saying right along, you, by the way, you want to hear something really disturbing?
The president had lost ground in polls.
Now, with the news that we've got here, I would think the president would be losing ground, wouldn't you?
This is very serious stuff.
But, you know, I saw a poll yesterday that showed the president had regained nearly all he lost, and there is now 18 points difference between Bob Dole and Bill Clinton.
18 points.
Now, exactly how bad does the news have to get before the American people go, oh, really?
Here, let me think about my vote.
But they're not doing that.
They seem to, for a moment, stumble and say, now, wait a minute, we may have a real problem here.
And I wish I could throw some other words in there, select words to give it emphasis, but you can't do that.
Even in late-night radio, you shouldn't do that.
So I won't.
But you know what I mean?
It's unbelievable.
Where are the American people's brains?
This is not fluff stuff.
This is not the president's little tryst with Paula or Jennifer or whoever.
This is very serious stuff.
When you're talking about acquisition of files, virtually an enemies list.
And at first I was willing to concede, well, maybe it was some sort of bureaucratic blunder.
But now they're even lying about where they got the list.
Or the Secret Service is lying.
One of the two, because yesterday they denied it.
No, no, no.
We didn't give the White House this list.
What the hell is going on up there?
And even if you assume the worst about what's going on up there, the better question is, what the hell is going on in the country?
That the people, all of you, well, maybe not you, your talk people, but the average citizen just isn't paying attention or doesn't care.
Either way, it's frightening.
The income gap between wealthy and poor Americans continues to grow.
The Census Bureau tells us between 1968 and 1994, the richest in America are now 44% richer.
The poorest Americans' income has only risen by 8%.
So the rich get richer, the poor fall farther behind.
Haven't even kept up with inflation, not by a long shot.
Not good for any country, even America, if it continues.
And so how do we, with any sort of equality, see to it that that trend reverses itself without taking from the rich to give to the poor, without playing Robinhood?
How do we get this trend to eventually reverse and what happens if it does not?
The American Lung Association says smog and air pollution appear to be linked to tens of thousands of hospital emergency room visits every year.
Wow.
Lung Association has released a survey of 13 cities that found that exposure to ground-level ozone or smog is linked to up to 50,000 emergency room visits and up to 15,000 admissions.
Holy mackerel.
Dr. Kvorkian added again.
This time a woman with a horrible, horrible disease that slowly and surely and painfully destroys the spinal column.
The woman likened it to a thousand knives in her back every day, suffering horribly.
Dr. Kvorkian, with other physicians apparently present, has done it again, and she is out of her misery.
What are we going to do about Dr. Kvorkian?
What should be done about Dr. Kvorkian?
I'm not exactly sure.
Art the quickening has struck again in Portland, not in the form of high winds or floods, but in the form of the now popular demented pastime of church burning.
At 3 a.m., the call went out to 911, the Emmanuel Christian Fellowship Church in North Portland was on fire.
At 3.03 a.m., the top-notch Portland Fire Bureau arrived on the scene.
Due to their quick response and excellent firefighting skills, damage to the building was limited, though it is totally unusable in its present condition.
Pastor Mark Strong says he knows of no one who holds a grudge against them, has no idea why anybody would want to burn their church.
The church is 40 years old.
Has a very diverse and integrated membership with about 150 parishioners.
The fire investigators have ruled this to be arson, and at this time they have no suspects.
Art, what kind of soulless sickos get their kicks torching churches?
Guess they're part of the same plague of demented behavior that we have been talking about week after week after week.
A five-year-old beating a baby to death, a mother drowning her kids in a car, a man walking into a class of kindergartners and opening fire.
If these lost souls are so intent on self-destruction, I wish they would save the rest of us a lot of grief by performing self-immolation with a can of gasoline and a flick of their bic.
I realize this sounds callous, but I've really had it up to here with these uncaring, empty-eyed, soulless freaks.
Steve in Portland.
And then a lighter note here, or maybe not, depending on your point of view.
Hey, Art, I find it more than just a little strange that a tropical depression formed off the coast of Florida on your birthday, June 17th, strengthened into something called Tropical Storm Arthur, came ashore with strong winds and torrents of rain in your birthplace.
What kind of devilish tricks are you up to, Mr. Antichrist?
Well, I've heard Bob Dole say he is not going to attack President Clinton on the character issue.
Well, my God, if you don't attack President Clinton on the character issue, and all of this stuff is included in that, frankly, then you've automatically, for somebody who's a poor campaigner anyway, you've discarded your big ammunition.
I thought one of the things that you'd want is a person of good character in there to begin with.
I mean, if Dole's supposed to be the man, then he has to show that the other guy who opposes him is just terrible in every respect, especially in morality.
I have to agree, but it's still, like you say, it's the people who will vote these things regardless of gays in the military or if it's going to be abortion.
The only real difference, and I'm not even sure about this because I'm not sure what kind of appointments Dole would make.
The only real difference that we could discuss would be the appointments to federal court courtships, the appointments to the U.S. Supreme Court, those could perhaps be meaningful over the next four years or not, depending on what happens with the court.
There could be a big difference there, or perhaps not much of a difference.
I don't know.
I really don't know.
It's a mixed-match kind of thing because Clinton's been wounded trying to appoint liberals, and so he's become kind of centrist in some of his appointments.
Bob Dole claims there would be no litmus tests, so you could end up either way with both of these men with regard to appointments, federal court positions, you might have something meaningful there.
But as I look at the issues, and I do look at the issues, even if I'm not here discussing them with you a lot of times, I just don't see a great deal of difference.
No, Bob Dole wouldn't put gays in the military.
But then again, Bill Clinton wasn't successful doing that anyway, and it's not really a big issue.
What are the big issues?
Money.
Our debt.
Our deficit.
It's what had me going with Ross Perot.
He's the only guy who's really talked the truth.
Otherwise, it's going to be a race to see who can promise us what and then not deliver.
I just wanted to say that, well, it's looking pretty grim as far as, well, Bill Clinton goes, but I have a feeling that if he's our next president, again, he's going to invoke the wrath of God on this country.
And the behavior of the people of this country, the druggies out there, the little soulless creatures that are running around killing, I don't know that that behavior is going to change under Bob Dole or Bill Clinton.
I think it will continue.
So I think the people of this country are the ones that are going to invite the Lord's wrath.
I'll say again what I said earlier, and I think this is key.
We have a good man who cannot win and a bad man who can win.
And that's the way I see all of this shaping up.
I think it's going to be a lot closer than it is right now.
That is a natural thing as we get closer to Election Day.
But unless something really radically changes, and by the way, I do have a little idea of what that could be, then I think we'll get four more years of Bill Clinton.
That's what I think.
And I think all of us, individually, collectively, we're the ones who will bring or hold away God's wrath.
unidentified
You're listening to Art Bell somewhere in Time.
Tonight featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 20th of June, 1996.
Works presents Art Bell, Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from June 20th, 1996.
Listen, Art, it seems to me that as we watch the media, we often accuse them, at least over the airwaves late at night, of not reporting all sorts of things.
And sometimes we accuse them of misreporting certain things.
I just am not really sure how you place so much faith in polls that are conducted by the very same news organizations that we accuse of being so unworthy of their task.
In your circles, people agree with you and don't like Clinton.
unidentified
Yeah, but I'm talking about just random stops at the barber shop, at the convenience store.
You know, the people I run into there are a cross-section of society.
And in general, I would say that they're not impressed with either candidate, but they're definitely alerted to the fact that Clinton and company cannot be trusted.
I think if they were asked, they would say, I would rather have a man who could be trusted.
Now, you know, perhaps what we're pointing at here is the problem that people don't feel they can trust Dole either.
I think it would be hypocritical to say that the polls that tend to support what I believe are baloney, and the polls that support what I believe, which is what a lot of people do, why, those are accurate polls.
I don't do that.
Through all the years that I've been doing this program, I generally do rely on and believe the polling information.
I know it's not the populist thing to do, and when you disagree with something, it's always easier to say, oh, the polls suck.
You know, it's the liberal media doing the polls.
No, it's not.
It's polling companies doing the polls.
And while, yes, you can influence the result by the question you ask, as a general rule, there are sound, scientific ways that polls are done, and they are accurate to within the ranges stated, and they're pretty much right.
I mean, they really are.
So our time is better spent asking what the hell is going on with the American people that they're not responding to what they're hearing in the media right now.
But where is this night, shining night, with all the money and the independents?
And yes, oh, yes, my heart longs for such a person.
And I agree.
This election stinks.
You know, that's how I feel about it.
It stinks.
Bob Dole is a good person, but he's not a good candidate.
Bill Clinton is a good candidate, but he's not a good person.
I really don't like either alternative.
I don't see any bright future ahead for us either way.
I'm lost.
I'm ticked off at politics.
I'm ticked off at the American people's apathy.
I'm just fed up.
I'm really fed up with politics.
And I don't see any outcome of this election, whether Ms. Clinton self-immolates politically and Bob Dole gets in or whatever happens, there's not going to be a very discernible difference in the next years ahead.
Short of somebody on a shining night trotting in on a horse at the last moment, and I don't think that's going to happen.
If that were to happen here, if things were to get so bad that a lot of the American people were going hungry, we would take any solution that was handed to us.
I know it.
To hear these people talk and to watch people how they support Clinton after all of his blows me away.
If you listened carefully to Lubra Brezhnev in that interview, it's not really going to much matter how the election turns out because that country is split down the middle, and that is the prescription in the shape they're in for a civil war, and that's what's going to come.
And the same thing would happen here, and I get so tired of people walking around saying this, it will never happen here, it will never happen here.
You just take a little bit of somebody's food or toys away.
You know, the American people are nothing but a bunch of grazing cattle, and when it comes down to it, they would trade their freedom for comfort and a heartbeat.
I mean, wasn't there a day when the American people would, for all the other scandals that are going on and whatever may be in Mr. Clinton's past in Arkansas's governor, whatever.
Now, there's a lot of you know what that went on down there.
And for all his dalliances and whatever else we might talk about with respect to Clinton, that was nothing.
You look at this FBI thing.
Here, they're already lying about where they got this list.
That was evident yesterday.
Even Biden was beside himself, as I illustrated to you with this comment earlier.
This is frightening.
I mean, this really is big government at its worst.
This is 1984, you know, a few years later, and it's not even affecting the American people.
If you believe the surveys, Clinton's on his way back up, 20 points or better.
It's just, it's absolutely astounding.
So, isn't that what they're doing, trading freedom for what?
Okay, anyway, just a comment that I wanted to make, and I'm not necessarily saying that Clinton is the best president or anything, but I've always thought kind of like if you had a mechanic that could work on your car, and you knew this guy was a really good mechanic, but you knew that he went home and beat his wife, would you say I'm not going to go to that mechanic?
Because even though he's the best mechanic, but he beats his wife's home.
He's like the guy, you know, you go and you take your car and the guy says, yeah, I'm going to have three of my best guys on it right away.
And we're going to take care of you and blah, blah, he really talks that talk, but he doesn't walk that walk, and your car will never be the same again.
That's the way I view Clinton.
unidentified
Right.
But I just mean if you if you did have that choice, if you could have the good president, but he was going to be sleeping around and he was going to be doing these things, but he could run the country great.
I mean, would you rather let that slide and let the country be run and grave?
I think even though the polls are very accurate as far as what they reflect from the respondents, you cannot, there's no way to tell what the people who refuse to participate in the poll think.
And I think from my experience, there's a large number of conservatives that will not participate in polls because they feel they're going to be manipulated to say whatever they want, you know, the pollster wants them to say.
And I think they just opt out of the polling process.
I was involved in a couple of polls in this area dealing with gambling and different things.
And the people who were conservative were more likely, I think, to challenge the question.
And we were told to just disregard those people.
If they challenge the question or they get halfway through the poll and get mad at you and just hang up or just refuse to participate, you disregard those.
And I think conservatives are more likely to do that because they don't trust the system to begin with.
And I think that's why you have a situation like you had in 1994 where all the polls showed that the Democrats were going to basically stay even or maybe gain some seats in the Senate and the House.
and and you had a republican landslide and that people well now that now the polls uh...
And I'm not saying, look, I'm not saying that it may not change.
I'm just saying that with the revelations over the last, oh, I don't know, two or three weeks, there was a dip in the president's popularity, and it popped right back again.
And anytime you have a poll that shows, you know, 60% or 70% or whatever it is don't trust him, you know, but 50-something percent will still vote for him.
And I think maybe as we get a little closer, maybe more people will be inclined to participate.
But I think at this point, I think you have so many people, and I think they're basically conservatives that are just not wanting to opt into the polls.
Well, sir, I would say to you, if it feels better for you to believe that, I'm happy for you, and have a good night.
Take care.
I'm sorry, I do believe the polls.
I believe they're accurate, roughly accurate.
Oh, sure, polls have been wrong.
They have been wrong.
But generally, they're not.
And when you talk about the big Gallup series of polls, they're pretty close and, frankly, pretty representative.
I know we all complain about the questions.
Or we might say, well, conservatives don't participate.
But they have a very scientific way.
You can write to Gallup, for example.
It's like measurement of radio audiences.
It's not always right, but it's close and it's pretty much right.
All right?
It varies a little from survey to survey.
I understand that because I'm in the business.
As it does, you know, with polls.
Polls vary a little bit from poll to poll.
But when you've got many of them showing roughly the same thing, then you can pretty well begin to figure out that, hey, this is the way it is right now.
And I think your time is then better spent trying to figure out why it is that way.
Why the American people, despite all of the incredible news, still support this president.
How come?
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Art Bell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this, somewhere in Time.
Clinton is a gunfighter, and he is a consummate politician.
Can you deny that?
I mean, he is so good at what he does.
So good at what he does.
And Bob Dole has decided he's going to take the high road.
Which apparently means, and to me, there really is no high road left in American politics.
You've got to go for the juggler.
If somebody's coming after you with a gun, you better have one.
And Bill Clinton is the guy with a gun, the political gun, and not afraid to use it.
And Bob Dole isn't that guy.
The only thing that I would say, and the only, you know, I'm certainly not the only hope, but somebody's got to do it.
I would be willing to do it.
I would love to have Bob Dole on.
I've made the invitation.
The American people have got to get to know Bob Dole in a way they have not yet.
And maybe that could be done on national radio.
And it doesn't have to be me.
Maybe Rush.
Somebody has got to sit down with Bob Dole and drag the passion out of that man.
And maybe it's nerves.
Maybe it's that he is nervous in front of the major media.
He doesn't do well.
Maybe if he were sitting at home, relaxed on a telephone and somebody had an opportunity to bring the passion from him, if it's there, the vision from him for America, because that's what the American people want to hear.
Then maybe, maybe.
But the way I see it and read it right now, there's no hope.
I don't like having that feeling.
I don't like feeling without hope.
And I wish I didn't have to tell you I felt that way.
Art, I heard Dole voted against only three of Clinton's judicial nominees.
Some difference, huh?
Arthur in San Francisco looking forward to voting for Harry Brown.
The other guy who has spoken the truth, not just Ross Perot.
Well, it depends on your vision of the truth.
Harry Brown certainly tells us what he believes.
I've had Harry Brown on if he becomes the nominee of the party.
As a matter of fact, I talked to the Harry Brown people earlier today.
But I don't think Harry Brown is going to be our next president either.
I'm not beyond going to a third party.
Believe me, I'm not.
If there was a candidate out there who would have a chance to win, I'd be there.
Depending on who it was, I could conceivably vote for a third-party candidate, but there's nobody out there right now.
I'm not in the business of wasting my vote.
For all I've said and all my discouragement, I'm not going to waste my vote, and I'm sorry, Harry Brown libertarian supporters.
That's a waste.
He's not going to win.
I will vote for Bob Dole.
There's no question about it.
I will vote for Bob Dole, but I know where my vote is going.
And it's going to no good effect because I don't believe he will win.
Isn't that terrible?
But that's just an honest read for you as I stand back and I look at this from any angle.
I'm sorry.
That's the way I read it.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
unidentified
Art, I agree with you about the third parties.
But if the third parties would get up and get like, really, now, Clinton seems to be ahead.
But if a good third party candidate, because Dole won't do it, but if a good third-party candidate would get in there and get into neighborhood watch groups and stuff, show around the film of the Clinton Chronicles, get out the book called Flick Willie One and Flick Willie Two.
If a third-party candidate, American Independent or something, would get on there and do that, Libertarians, they could actually get enough votes, I think, to get in as a president.
My name is Dick, and I am from South Bend, Indiana.
Yes, sir.
A couple things that I wanted to talk to you about.
One thing with Russia, I was watching this documentary on PBF, and it was about some expedition trekking across Russia and stuff like that.
And they stopped at a nuclear power plant, and they were talking to the people, and the people had told them that they hadn't gotten paid for like six to nine months.
Well, the next night, I was listening to some alternative rock station, and they were playing some industrial grunge music with that interview in the background.
So as a suggestion of hope, rather than thinking that one person will lose or win, if people really voted their conscience, they could change the election.
Yeah, I figure a show like yours is what we need for him to get on there.
And I also believe he needs to come out and cut himself away from all the issues going on.
You know, like, you know, make his statement about the FBI files, about Travelgate, about Whitewater and everything, and then get to the real issue, you know, and just get away from all that.
You know, and then finally, you know, probably shoot Duke.
But for independent, I figure, you know, the only independent I could see who'd really help if we get him to go independently would be Colin Powell.
Colin Powell, indeed, if he were to run, which he has squarely said he is not going to, would have a chance of being a viable independent candidate that I could support.
Maybe.
I mean, did we ever really learn enough about Colin Powell?
But viability is not a trivial issue.
I mean, Colin Powell is viable.
Survey after survey has shown he's the only one who might be able to beat both of them.
So if he were to run, I would be forced to investigate and look very carefully at Mr. Powell.
So that would be a maybe, depending on what he was all about.
Will we ever know?
I'll be back.
unidentified
This is Premier Networks.
That was Ardell hosting Coast to Coast AM on this Somewhere in Time.
Tonight, featuring Coast to Coast AM from the 20th of June, 1996.
Art, without virtuous citizens, there is no true democracy.
That's right.
So what am I saying?
I'm saying that my observations lead me to believe that we don't have enough virtuous citizens to sustain the republic that we've got for very much longer.
What do you think this quickening thing is that I've been talking about?
Or this, James Madison, democracy presupposes the virtue of its individual citizens.
You're damn right.
Same answer.
If the American people elect Bill Clinton, they are laughing at honor, honesty, civic responsibility, and the wisdom of our founding fathers.
Why do you think I'm so depressed?
You're exactly right, whoever you are.
David, thank you.
Or this.
Hi, Art.
After the day I had, I thought I'd turn on my friend and get some respite from the arena.
But it seems that your topic tonight is depressing you.
Yes, you're exactly right.
That's Diane down in L.A. You're right, Diane.
And that tells you why I don't frequently do this.
But the news and the events of the day have forced me into this.
I mean, what's going on at the White House is astounding.
This whole FBI thing is astounding.
It is the most profound, horrible violation of rights that I've seen in a long time.
And if you saw the Senate testimony yesterday, Diane, it can't be ignored.
As somebody else writes, if Bob Dole is a good man who can't win, and Bill Clinton is a bad man who will win, what does that make H. Ross Perot?
My answer to you would be, H. Ross Perot was kind of a crazy but good man who could have won.
I knew at the time that I voted for Ross Perot that he was kind of half crazy and that he probably wouldn't last the term.
But you know, what I thought Mr. Perot would have done, and I'm sure he would have, is he would have gone to Washington like Mr. Smith, and he would have started bashing heads together, and he would have disturbed the force terribly.
And I was really looking forward to that.
Oh, yeah, he'd have flown off the handle, and he'd probably really, really just stood Washington on its head for a year or two.
But that's what Washington needs.
And I'll tell you this, as much respect as I have for Bob Dole.
And he is an honorable man.
He will not stand Washington on its head.
Bob Dole's background is a long and honorable one of working inside the system.
Mr. Clinton is the system.
So there is a difference between the two men.
But the difference right now that makes me depressed is that Mr. Dole is not a campaigner.
Yeah, but you know, I think talk radio is helping Bill Clinton because all these extremists get on the air and they start saying Clinton is a murderer, Clinton is a dope dealer, Clinton is this, Clinton has done everything from A to Z.
You know, I think the Larry Nichols crowd is wrong, and I think I've said this many times before.
I think that extremism is more harmful than it is helpful.
There's plenty of real issues out there right now, and much as Doc may not think that the use of our national investigative agency, the FBI, for political purposes not a bother or not a sin, maybe the American people agree with him, and maybe that's what's depressing me.
But I do, on balance, agree that wielding unsubstantiated charges of murder and all the rest of it is not useful.
He's going to try to paint Bob Dole with Newt Gingrich, and he's going to try to paint Bob Dole as an expression.
unidentified
Yeah, but what he's also going to do is he's going to start claiming that Bob Dole wants to starve children.
He wants to have old people eating dog food.
He's going to start doing that.
And then Bob Dole is going to start throwing back with all the double talk that Clinton's been doing.
He's going to start bringing up everything that's been coming up within the Clinton administration within the last four years.
He's going to start slamming.
He's going to start off on the high road.
And then when Clinton starts digging into Bob Dole, Bob Dole's going to say, well, I tried to do this as a clean campaign.
But because this other side just keeps coming up with all these lies and all these exaggerations and all this stuff, he's going to say, I'm going to have to sit here and tell you people what exactly this administration has been doing.
And he's going to turn around and he's going to have that there's going to be tapes of Bill Clinton from one day to the next to the next to the next changing his story left and right.
All the stuff coming boom, boom, boom, boom.
He's saving his money.
He had to spend so much money in the Republican primary.
I have said right along the only way that Bill Clinton is going to be whooped is if Bill Clinton whoops Bill Clinton.
And that could happen.
unidentified
It's already happening, including with the FBI files, with Whitewater, with what Hillary's been doing, with everybody who's been connected with Bill Clinton and all his close cronies, the only people who have been close to Bill Clinton who hasn't left.
Yeah, but if all of that comes down heavily, which it may because it's beginning to speed up substantially before the election, then you've got a Bill Clinton who is not going to run for re-election and you've got a different candidate.
unidentified
Have you ever wondered why Bill Clinton hasn't declared his candidacy yet?
There would be a statement about Bill Clinton simply not wanting for more years or some other reason, you know, health reasons, you know, who knows what they're going to say.
There would be something like that, and Mr. Clinton would not run again.
That could happen.
And I suppose man holds his options open.
Interesting scenario, but you've got to worry about the timing because he would no doubt allow enough time for another candidate to be in place.