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Feb. 23, 1996 - Art Bell
01:20:14
Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell - Bud Hopkins John Mack Alien Abduction Show on Nova
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Good morning across all these many happy time zones.
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Hi, everybody.
Welcome to another edition of Friday Night Saturday Morning Edition, I might add.
Of Coast to Coast AM.
Live, on-screen talk radio throughout the nighttime.
Now, I bet you're curious about what's going to happen right now.
As promised, in a moment, Rod Hopkins and more.
As a matter of fact, I'll tell you a little story.
We're going to leave the erotic world of politics for a little while here and talk about something else.
Can you handle that?
Is that a cheer I heard?
Uh, but it was about a week and a half ago, to put this all into chronological order for you, that I got a call from Bud Hopkins, uh, normally a very serene individual, investigator, best-selling author of, um, Intruders and Missing Time.
I think probably both, uh, Million Sellers, Topple the Miss, that kind of thing.
So, you know, Bud is out front.
Investigates Uh, and looks into things like missing time and people who have been abducted.
And Bud was really upset, and that's putting it mildly, and said that there was a hit piece coming up on, of all things, NOVA, which most people regard as a science-oriented program, alluding itself to, um, educating the masses in the sciences.
And, Bob sent me a 10-page sort of brief on what is coming up on NOVA.
And I'll just read from the first page, which ought to be sort of a teaser to get going on what's about to happen.
On February 27th, 1996, 27, WTBH Television will present a NOVA program entitled, Kidnapped by Aliens, with an apparent question mark at the end of that, which outrageously distorts the nature of the UFO abduction phenomenon.
It's fair to say that as a result of this show, NOVA has abandoned its right to be thought of as either objective, balanced, or scientific.
What NOVA presented in its program on the abduction phenomenon was a, quote, deliberate mangling of the truth that limits having absolutely nothing to do with the scientific investigation of the available data.
Privately on a show filled with hostile authority figures with little or no acquaintance with the case material, astronomer Carl Sagan essentially stated he believed all abduction accounts could be explained as delusions or hallucinations.
Nova was obviously unconcerned that Dr. Sagan, whose uniformed opinion on the subject is well known, has yet to mount a serious investigation into even One abduction report.
This Nova UFO program was designed to air during sleep week, the period when the ratings war is at its hottest.
Consequently, the producers chose to begin the show in the most sensational tabloid style imaginable with eerie music, foggy reenactments, and spooky light suggesting that Nova now sees itself as going head-to-head with hard copy And entertainment tonight.
That's from the man you're about to hear about from, Bud Hopkins.
And so that gives you some idea of the degree of... Well, I'll let Bud put the word to it.
I don't know what he would say.
Anger?
Disappointment?
We'll get the readout on that in just a moment.
So that's what's coming up.
And with Bud, the apparent subject Uh, part of the NOVA examination.
And, uh, for somebody who has been, uh, in close contact with Bud Hopkins, and we will call him, uh, by his first name only, John.
Uh, my presumption is you'll hear or hear about John on the program.
So, all of that coming up in just a moment.
And, by the way, I've also got something from Gordon Michael Scallion, which we'll get on afterwards.
It's a fairly serious, uh, message for you all.
Yes, in office.
And what's your office?
Queens.
And the person we are going to call, John.
So, first of all, Bud, are you there?
I certainly am.
Alright, super.
And John, how about you?
Hi, I'm here.
Okay, good.
You're both here then.
We're in business, I think, folks.
Alright, Bud, I recall to the audience the phone call you made to me.
You were pretty drop-on upset that day.
Yep.
And I think you still are this day.
What would you describe What do you feel about Nova?
Are you angry?
Are you saddened?
What does this make you feel?
Well, I think I'm going to be angry.
I'm certainly saddened.
And I'm profoundly shocked at the dishonesty of their presentation.
Alright, now you're going to go get them, and I want to tell the audience, Bud, as you do this, our network was contacted by PBS earlier in the day, by an Ellen doctor, I guess, who is some official at this PBS outlet, and she said, look, we understand Bud's going to be on, we really want to have somebody named Uh, Denise on.
Is she the producer?
Denise Piani is the name of the producer of this, uh, program.
Ah, ha, ha, ha.
So, I thought, fine, and I want the audience to know I called you, Bud, and I said, if she wants to be on, how about it?
You jumped at it and said, yes, uh, let's have her on.
So, I called them back, and I said, yeah, Bud's jumping on it.
He wants to come on with you.
He's more than willing to come on you, with you.
And then all of a sudden, uh, they began backing away, and I further want the audience to know That I said well you call me back and please let me know
yes or no She's gonna be on or even to be on but they never even
returned the call Well, I'm not surprised there is a certain sense running
for cover. I don't think that they ever imagined that they would have
Opened such a can of worms themselves as they have and John our
other gentleman radio with me is a man who said UFO abduction experience
and he has been asked to go on to Nova actually to help
advertise this program And it's a program in which he is called the victim of
false memories and his genuine emotion and so forth is regarded as
some sort of self-delusion The shocking part of this is the fact that NOVA, which you
know, TALF is being television you can trust, was actually trying to deceive the very
people that they had taken on the program, assures that they would be treated with dignity
and seriousness and stuff like that.
They were going to trick these people by asking for you to advertise the program without knowing
in advance the content of the program, that they were going to be made to look foolish
on the air.
John will explain his emotion on that, but it's very intense.
Well, they came to you, and I know they also came to John Mack, Professor Mack, yeah, and
they apparently, or maybe I should ask you, did they misrepresent themselves to you?
Well, they did because they I said that everyone would be treated with dignity and etc.
etc.
As a matter of fact, I just got a little advance advertisement of this program or a little comment on it from U.S.
News and World Report.
This is typical of the way the program will read and it is being read by critics.
It says, kidnapped by UFOs, you'll be transfixed by the seeming veracity of the series of accounts of alien infection on this episode's NOVA, and equally captivated by how Carl Sagan and other scientists debunk them.
And then, listen to this, hallucinations, pop culture, and the therapist are among the culprits.
I'm referred to as the therapist throughout the program, something I don't claim to be and am not, and Yet John Mack, who is of course a psychiatrist, he and I
are of course, as they would say here, among the culprits.
We are actually to blame for the UFO abduction phenomenon.
In other words, your creation.
Yeah.
This is of course a true story.
Do you think they're doing it?
Why are they doing it?
That's very hard to know.
for obstruction who was being put down totally by the program and of course it's the messenger too
if I and John Mack are regarded as the messengers. Why do you think they're doing this? Why are they
doing it? That's very hard to know. Actually NOVA has been a very conservative program
and students of course have been very closely tied to Carleton.
Carl Sagan's personal attitude towards this is that there's nothing to it but hallucination and delusion, which are very heavy-duty mental problems prescribed to literally thousands upon thousands of people around this country.
I think I should mention that to begin with, The people who have come forward to talk about their best
experiences to me and to have those experiences explored include so far I've dealt with
probably 10 or 12 police officers, I've dealt with 7 psychiatrists who are advocates, I've dealt
with a NASA scientist who came to me for help, doctors, lawyers, some very well-known
people in show business, political figures, people literally in all walks of life. I have
worked with people in places like Brazil, Australia, England, etc. etc. It's a worldwide
phenomenon and yet very few of these people for very logical, solid reasons are willing
to go forward on a public television program and show their faces because of the risk of ridicule
or the risk of problems to their jobs and so forth. So when very few people were
willing to come forward, John being one of the brave ones who was willing to, they were
all assured, don't worry, Nelva will treat you with great respect and you will have nothing
to worry about. So of course what the message is that Nelva is sending out from Limelight
is look what happens to people who come forward, they become ridiculed and so on.
So if you are out there with abduction experiences and you have let's say very heavy duty
credentials in the world and people would take you seriously, don't you dare come forward because
this is what's going to happen to you.
I regard the program as an attempt, in a certain sense, not only to suppress evidence, but to intimidate witnesses and future witnesses in these cases.
Well, and it will have that kind of killing effect, won't it?
Absolutely.
Because the net effect you're suggesting in the program is going to be ridicule.
Exactly.
And the basic thing is, if the program is trying to deal with the abduction phenomenon and explain it to the public, you have to actually deal with what the phenomenon is.
You have to deal with all of its irregularities and all of its difficulties of explanation.
For instance, one of the typical explanations, so-called, that the program puts forward, and it's been done over and over again, there's a teacher of psychology at a southern university named Baker, who is now retired.
And Baker announces this is all food paralysis.
Uh, it's a sweet phenomenon.
And, uh, you people wake up and they are momentarily paralyzed for like a split second or two.
And that's what this is all about.
It's only that.
Uh, well, of course, I explained to the Nova people at the beginning, but we have literally thousands upon thousands of reductions that take place in the daytime.
Uh, that take place when people are driving automobiles.
I've had cases where a car with six people in it will suddenly be stopped in the middle of the day.
The car engine dies, the people are paralyzed, two of the people are abducted from the car, the other four are left with five switched off.
That kind of thing.
Okay, now that's the kind of case you have to explain.
Isn't that what I was saying to Deliver the Interest?
But I've got a question.
Of the cases of research, what would you guesstimate the percentage of conscious recollection of these things is versus that recollection dredged up from
repressed memories through hypnosis and so forth.
I would say that a third of all of the accounts I have are remembered without hypnosis.
And that's the other issue.
So, uh...
So, that's one of the other issues that they chose to use to misrepresent the phenomenon.
They tried to pretend this only happens at night, it only happens to a single person, one at a time, there are no such things as multiple abductions, at least that's the message subliminally that goes out.
And it's always the product of hypnosis.
See, for all of those statements, they need to be false.
Well, again, I'm going to circle back to my why.
In other words, who do you think is really behind this?
If they want to do a piece that causes people to think 25 times before ever admitting anything or coming forward to a person like you, or anybody else for that matter, why?
What is the phenomenon?
In some evil way do you think they perceive, or is it dangerous to them in some way, or why?
Well, that's a hard one to answer.
It would have been, of course, very good if NOVA had decided to try to defend itself
rather than ducking out, as you just explained that they did by now appearing.
One can guess lots of different things.
I think that there is just enormous resistance amongst the scientific community to allowing themselves,
even to think for a moment that such things can be going on.
This just kind of shreds all the givens that we assume are true
about the way the world and physics operate.
I don't think it's easy to overestimate how disturbing it is for anyone to admit
for anyone to admit that there is some other intelligence operating right as we speak,
that there is some other intelligence operating right as we speak, this moment, in our environment,
this moment in our environment, abducting individuals, putting them through medical
abducting individuals, putting them through medical examinations, reproductive experiments,
examinations, reproductive experiments, and so forth, and returning them, that this is
and so forth, and returning them, that this is actually happening.
actually happening.
To admit even that possibility is to admit that we are not in control of our own world,
or if somebody once said that we're not even maybe head of the top of the food chain.
No, you're tampering with primal sources.
Exactly.
Religion, government, and so forth.
Exactly, and there's lots of reason to want this to be hidden in the closet, firmly, out
of sight.
It is really upsetting.
And my take on Carl Sagan, who I've had dealings with, I've appeared with him on a television
program where we've exchanged letters and messages and so forth, is that he is really
profoundly uneasy about this material.
It upsets him.
And I think that he's been more or less the key figure on the NOVA program.
If it upsets him and if it's truly, truly bothersome to scientific givens that he's taught for lots and lots of
years and so on then maybe the thing is to try to kill it to
Try to hide it to try to keep it under the carpet, and I think that's one of the motivating reasons that they've
done this program So how much do you know as I
I complain bitterly all the time about TV, and I don't do television, bud, precisely because I understand what can be left on the floor, and that they can come at you with a complete agenda, as they can in newspapers as well, or I suppose even radio.
But television is uniquely suited to coming at you with an agenda, because no matter what they do with you, they can make it look the way they want it to look, or when it rocks, absolutely.
Well, I don't do television, uh, for that reason, but, uh, I've been ambushed a couple times in my life.
Is that what this is?
Is it an ambush?
Oh, absolutely.
It's a, uh, it's an, uh, an eviction warrant.
Uh, a fairly eviction warrant.
of the fact that they don't even allow for a moment, even the possibility that any of these people
are remembering events that actually happened.
And if you were saying to the audience that all of these people who seem so rational
are coming forward and talking, and they're describing their experiences as John does,
with great emotion, all of these people are just dead wrong.
They're imagining the whole thing.
When you say that about all the people on the program, I mean, you're doing a really horrible disservice
to those people and to their image, their reputation in their communities and so forth.
And you're presenting absolutely no evidence that this is the case.
They did not investigate a single, solitary UFO experience with any sense of bringing in any psychological testers, any kind of investigators.
They said they shot a lot of film footage, showed it to a bunch of debunkers who said, of course, this is... people, this can't be.
or this is all fault of memory, or this is all a product of hypnosis,
or this is all sleep paralysis or something.
No reasons are ever cited.
Nobody is ever questioned about it on the program.
I mean, none of the F.F.G.s are asked questions about how they remember,
what they remember consciously or anything like that.
Well, they didn't even really try to investigate.
Oh, there's no investigation done at all.
And as John was explaining, one of the most important things is John volunteered.
He said he would do any kind of test that they wanted.
He would do any psychological test that they wanted, any medical examinations, MRIs, x-rays.
He would volunteer.
He would volunteer that they come to his home and check out his family and his son, who was actually John remembers seeing his son in an abduction experience.
His mother's already described abduction experiences.
All right.
And they heard nothing?
They refused to investigate.
Well, they're right there, Bud and John.
And we'll come back and we will find out what John's story is.
That's coming next.
My guest is Bud Hopkins and Don's coming next.
Here's a yoyo's electronic town hall.
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1-800 and John both in New York.
But I think the thing to do now is to kind of turn it over to you a little bit and bring us up to date on John and let John tell his story and then we'll integrate that with what Nova's going to do.
Great, well I think that John could start by talking about how he happened to call me up and clearly he had UFO experiences to begin with and then his thought process was when NOVA was asking people to come forward.
So John, why don't you tell us about how you You decided that there was something strange going on in your life?
Yeah, actually.
Up until two years ago, I was pretty skeptical myself about the whole abduction phenomenon.
Although I really didn't know that much about it, I was very skeptical.
My wife bought me a book.
It happened to be Bud's book, Intruders.
And as I was reading into the book I became more and more disturbed because in the accounts of the abductees I was recognizing I mean a whole laundry list of memories and experiences that I've had in my life and here it was In front of me in a book, you know, that my own personal life experience has fit this pattern, and that that pattern was connected to UFOs and aliens, and it just blew me out of the water.
I put the book down at 3.30 in the morning and knocked the letter out the bud right away.
And what I did was describe what I thought was a horrible, vivid nightmare I had had some years before.
And when I nailed the letter, I didn't, first of all, I never expected to hear back from Bud.
And if I did hear back from him, I fully expected him to, you know, bash off a little note saying, oh, don't worry about it, this has nothing to do with anything.
Instead, what we ended up doing was arranging an interview And the more I talked, the more I realized how much material was there and it became very frightening for me initially.
Alright John, let me stop you there and ask Bud.
Bud, I know because I get hundreds of letters, I get email I can't ever answer.
Right.
You get probably many times that.
And so what was it in John's letter that inspired you to write back to respond?
Well, to tell you the truth, I don't remember exactly in the letter, because I get so many letters.
Because what happens is, of course, I read the letter, we sent off a form letter response, and when John came in, then of course I did an extensive interview, and many different incidents then surfaced in the interview, and it's very hard for me to sort out what came in the letter.
Alright, well then the interview, what impressed you?
Right, well the first thing that came up, and this was not something that John was essentially involved with,
it just was for him almost marginal to other things, but it caught my eye.
He described walking home one night on the streets of Brooklyn from a dinner,
Brooklyn from a dinner and seeing this object, a very large light, passing overhead and being
and seeing this object, a very large light passing overhead, He described walking home one night on the streets of
extremely intrigued and wondering what this thing was.
And then not seeing this thing emerge from the other side of the building and being unclear
as to exactly what had happened and finding himself very, very, very frightened and he
didn't know why.
But there was a great deal of fear.
He didn't know whether he ran home or what happened.
But I recognized right away in cases like this when you have someone, and this is our
listeners, could be paying particular attention here, if one has a fairly clear-cut UFO sighting
And it doesn't seem to end in a very clear-cut way.
If you remember vividly how it begins, as you're watching the object, but then it's unfolding, and it's disappearance and all, it's very unclear.
And you're left with a great deal of terror and confusion.
It may mean that you're simply not remembering consciously the rest of the experience.
And when John told me this, he wasn't putting any particular weight to it.
May I stop you and ask you, do you think that That lack of remembrance or the foggy ending to it all is a product of something that they have caused to happen to the abductee or a simple protectionist mechanism of the abductee.
I will argue it's probably a little of each.
But I definitely think that the UFO occupants are able to block memory,
to force memory to be somehow retained in the unconscious and not the conscious mind.
But I do think that there is a very human built-in device which says,
I don't want to really remember this.
And the thing was, John wasn't paying too much attention to this,
but when we first, with that particular incident, the backup was the first one we decided to look into.
We explored it first with as much information as we could recall.
Then when we did a hypnotic regression, out came a pretty disturbing experience, which we can tell
you about.
All right.
John, what did you learn?
Well, as it turns out, you have to understand a little background on this.
I'm a native New Yorker.
I'm 47 years old.
I'm born and raised in Manhattan.
But I'll tell you, I'm a big guy.
I'm trained in martial arts.
I am never afraid on the streets of my city.
Um, no matter what time of day and night, and what was unusual that I found a little unusual was that after I had seen this thing, and it was pretty close up, it was only maybe 45, 40 feet away from me, um, I felt terrified.
I felt terrified. I thought something was going to leap out of the bushes or someone was going to mug me.
And I was having all these paranoid, fearful thoughts.
And I literally began running home.
Alright, what did you look back at? What did you see exactly?
Okay, I didn't, it wasn't, it wasn't like a disk or a, what I saw was an intense light.
I mean, brighter than the sun, but it didn't, doesn't, didn't hurt your eyes to look at it.
About, oh God, maybe 30 feet long and 15 feet thick in the middle.
A football-shaped, an intense football-shaped light.
About the size of a van, you know, and close up.
Over a rooftop across from me.
Oh, over a rooftop, alright.
Nevertheless, Brooklyn is a very populated area.
It was late.
I was coming home from a dinner party.
It was about two in the morning and the streets were fairly deserted.
Alright.
Um, although you're right, you know, it's a major metropolitan area.
Somebody must have seen something, but, you know, how to connect with those individuals, I have no idea.
Sure.
Um, what came out of the, uh, first session was that as I walked, as I approached my house, uh, four of these little, these little gray guys, they're about three and a half feet tall with the big black eyes, emerged from behind a hedge that surrounded the front of the house that I lived in at the time.
I became frozen for a second.
At first, what happened was a really intense confusion set in.
I didn't know what I was looking at.
I didn't know if they were animals.
I didn't know what it was I was looking at.
Then when I realized that these things weren't in fact animals, that they were something that I had never seen before, This panic set in that literally took my breath away.
I was having trouble breathing.
And then immediately following that is this wave of just calm and recognition.
The thing that shocked me the most was the recognition.
I felt like I knew these things.
I knew these beings.
I knew who they were.
So you feel as though they induced this in you suddenly and removed the fear?
Uh, yeah.
There's some kind of control.
Mind control.
Emotional control.
Maybe some kind of physical control.
I don't pretend to know.
What's that?
Exactly what's at work there, but there is definitely some kind of mind control or something at work there.
My instinct was to turn and run as fast as I could and I just couldn't move.
There you go.
And then my panic just subsided completely into this really calm state where I was completely at ease with the situation and in fact felt like I knew these beings.
I think that can be attributed to the fact that they somehow wipe your memories after these experiences happen and that every time you see them it's almost like you're seeing them for the first time until that recognition sets in.
There was something very familiar about it at that point.
Were there communications?
Did they tell you what they wanted or why you or what was about to happen?
Or any form of communication other than a feeling of calm?
No, yes sir.
You hear them in your head.
Nobody talks to you, but you know what they're thinking or saying.
It's usually reassurances or calming things.
The way you would talk to a child who's upset.
Um, they say things like, uh, we're not going to harm you.
Um, this isn't going to hurt.
This will be, this is something we have to do.
Uh, you're doing just fine.
You know, like, uh, almost like a doctor's bedside manner.
Right.
Right, well, you know one interesting thing that I remember from that session was
as they were saying those things and John was terrified and
earlier and Then in this sort of calm state
He sort of whispered As if he was repeating what they were saying to him and
they said to him don't worry. This is only a dream Yes.
This is only a dream.
Yes.
My dreams never told me that.
You know, just in regard to this Nova business, you know, I don't expect to be able to go in front of the public, in front of you, and make these kind of claims without being willing to substantiate them in some way.
I don't expect to be able to go in front of the public or in front of you and make these kind of claims without being willing to substantiate them in some way.
And part of the reason why I consented to do the Nova episode is because I very naively believed in their reputation.
John, how did Nova find out about you?
Well, actually I guess they had asked Bart to offer some cases of people that were willing to publicly come forward.
Uh, Denise Bianni reviewed one of those... Bud, with my permission, Bud called me and asked me if it was okay to show these people my regression tapes and share my case with them.
And I said, sure, fine, go ahead, Bud.
And Denise Bianni reviewed my hypnotic regressions and I guess whatever other information Bud gave her verbally or showed her in writing.
And I guess, I think the selection was made that way.
What did they ask of you?
I know that you volunteered to do certain things for them, and I'd like to know what those certain things were, and their reaction to those efforts.
Well, I'll tell you what.
Because it was Nova, the first night that I went there that I knew of, I had been invited to Bud Town.
And the staff, the producer, and the assistant producer, and someone else from Nova's staff was there that evening.
And I had jotted down some notes on the way, because I know, I mean I know how incredulous this all sounds, and I figured whatever kind of tests they can do in order to help substantiate the claims we're making, you know, would be so much the better.
And I wrote on a piece of paper, the first one was I suggested a complete psychological evaluation.
Um, I figured that that would be the very best way to eliminate psychopathology as an explanation.
You know, I could, you know, I'm willing to talk with any doctors they chose and take any kind of tests they want, you know, in order to prove my sanity.
I also suggested that they come to my home and interview my family members to take readings
to look for magnetic anomalies or unusual radiation levels.
I figured maybe these things leave some kind of physical trace evidence.
I'm not a scientist.
I don't pretend to know.
But I was trying to come up with the most practical kind of testing that I thought would
help to prove the reality of what we're saying.
You invited real investigation?
Yeah, it was what I was hoping for and it turns out that there was in fact no investigation at all.
they assembled a group of so-called experts, none of which, by the way, has ever looked into
or studied an abduction case.
Ever, no.
But these people had analyzed me, literally, on the, you know, like,
Fraser Train on the basis of a two-minute video clip.
They analyzed me, they studied me.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, John, wait a minute.
You mean these experts that we're rendering a judgment on, you never talked to you?
No, sir, they never interviewed me, never tested me, never requested any material
on my case from Bud Hopkins.
They knew me only from a video clip they viewed.
Actually, you'll see it on the segment when it airs Tuesday night.
Their experts are sitting in front of a TV monitor.
I'm on the monitor going through a hypnosis regression.
They stop the tape, and then the expert says, well, he's obviously suffering from false memory syndrome.
I mean, the whole thing was a complete sham.
It's the most insulting, demeaning, degrading kind of thing, treatment I've ever seen.
Well, I'm really genuinely sorry I participated.
John, this is the kind of thing, bud, that you would expect of, you know, Haraldo.
Yeah, you know, the same genre kind of show.
There's a million of them up there, but not Nova.
No, not Nova.
And incidentally, I think it should be pointed out that Nova had the gall to say that later on to, you know, cover their fannies, I suppose, they said, well, we offered to do tests But nobody came forward and Hopkins didn't present anybody.
It was, of course, after John had put it in writing that he wanted to do any kind of test they wanted.
Did you get any written response, John?
Yes, sir, on October 19th.
I have the letter right here and I'll read it for you, but what it is basically is a long list of reasons and excuses why they're not going to do any tests.
That's the point that I became concerned, and I said, what are these people doing here?
Nobody's spoken to me.
They haven't done any kind of tests at all.
Are they just putting out a testimony like that?
You know, I was shocked.
I mean, like I said, I'm not a scientist, and even, you know, it didn't make any sense to me.
So, Bud, this amounts, obviously, then, to a totally agenda-driven What I'm curious about, Bud, is when did you realize what was going on?
I didn't realize that until we found out that the name of the program was Abducted by Aliens?
It recently changed it to Abducted by UFOs.
But that was the lurid title that they gave it.
And we found out that Denise Siani, the producer, is a friend of my wife's and he was telling them that... Is that friend or former friend?
Former friend.
That they had finished it and etc.
etc.
and the program was all wrapped up.
Now this was before there was any question about... It was after they had rejected doing any kind of real investigation or testing.
And, uh, we began to get very suspicious then, but that was back in November, actually.
Uh, I honestly, uh, uh, well, I, I told the producers at the very beginning when we started this, I said, I have, I am not naive enough to think that you're going to say at the end of the program, yes, UFO abductions are taking place.
You're not going to do that.
I just know that's obviously the case.
Uh, but I said, I insist that you are honest enough To say at the end of the program that no matter how you try to explain these cases away, and think that you may have explained some of them and so on, to be absolutely honest, you're going to have to admit that a mystery remains.
That seems to be a very small thing to ask.
Sure.
But, of course, what actually happened is they leave the impression, without any doubt, that all of this has been explained away.
There is no such thing as any mystery that remains.
All of UFOs are explained away.
There's no such thing as the UFO.
Really?
And, as a matter of fact, they present a scientist who says he would love it if UFOs would land, but, in fact, he says no UFOs have ever landed or ever will land.
Does that call for anything?
No, this is a band named Horowitz.
Sounds like Carl Sagan.
It does sound like Carl Sagan, yes.
And Jack, how much of a part does Sagan play in the program?
Sagan plays a very major role.
I would say he's the central spokesperson for the point of view of the debunkers.
And he comes into the program from time to time.
I have to say sadly that as you may know that on a personal level he is extremely ill and
is extremely ill right now.
Evidently it's a form of cancer and he does not look well on the program.
I wish him good health and a recovery.
As a matter of fact, we exchanged letters about that recently, since I was, at one point, a sufferer from cancer.
But despite that, despite my sorrow for his situation, I find him to be, in this program, intellectually dishonest.
Alright, on that note, Bud Hopkins and John in New York, hold on, we're going to break the news at the top of the hour.
Well, isn't this something?
You're listening to Coast to Coast AM on a Friday night now, Saturday morning, out across most all of America, save the Hawaiian Islands.
I'm Art Bell.
We'll be right back.
It's an interior unit, isn't it? Sounds like a messy trunk.
It's an interior unit, isn't it? Sounds like a messy trunk.
Across this great nation, I am R. Bell.
I have guests.
Bud Hopkins.
Two national bestsellers, to include intruders.
Ten word of intruders in missing time.
John.
An abductee.
There is a NOVA piece being done coming up February 27th.
And you just wouldn't believe what cleared my fax machine.
It's a statement on the internet from, I believe, the producers of this program.
And that'll kind of set it up for you, even those of you who are joining this hour in just a moment, continuing with Bud Hopkins and John.
You hear this music on my show just about every night.
It is Cusco.
C-U-S-C-O.
They're a German group, and no matter how many times you hear it, it does nothing but draw on you.
It's actually incredible music, and I'd like to offer you the opportunity to have it for your own.
You can get the Cusco 2000 album, plus Cusco 2002 and the best-selling Mystic Island.
That's three CDs for the discount price.
So, we brought the lens of science journalism to one of the strangest stories of our time.
One of the trickiest decisions for the film has been how to deal with the alleged physical evidence surrounding abductions.
Abduction proponents frequently point to such physical evidence, photographs of ground traces left by UFOs, or most commonly reports of strange scars or scoop marks on the body of an abductee.
When examined more closely, so-called ground traces are usually just a commonly occurring fungus.
Scars, scoop marks appear to be quite ordinary, likely the result from everyday injuries or traumas.
But still, we at NOVA were curious and open-minded.
Abduction proponent Bud Hopkins, for one, claims to have more compelling evidence, even an X-ray of an alien nasal implant.
In interviews and in writing, and specifically in a letter sent October 17th of 95, we offered several abduction proponents the opportunity to have NOVA hire independent scientists to examine any physical evidence from a current case.
We...
When Tobias offered to perform an MRI or other radiological test with the approval of a physician in cases of alleged nasal implants, we were not taken up on the offer, and it was further suggested that the aliens are too smart to let such evidence fall into our hands.
One MIT physicist, a fervent proponent in alien abductions, And the process of scientific inquiry has confirmed there is not one single, independently confirmed, deep, subscientific evidence for alien abduction.
Not one.
In fact, when pressed further, most proponents themselves back off the importance of such conventional data, and point instead to what they refer to as the real evidence for abductions, that is, the similarity in the stories themselves and the sincerity and emotionality with which they are told.
This, then, is the true heart of the alien abduction phenomenon and the focus of our documentary.
Uh, there you go, bud.
What do you say to that?
Well, you just heard, uh, uh, John, uh, describe all of the, uh, tests that he offered to undergo himself.
Yeah!
And which were declined, which puts the absolute lie Would you mind if I read their response letter?
I almost need to demand it to do that.
I mean, we have a real discrepancy here.
They're saying they did all this.
You're saying you offered and they refused and you got it on paper.
I'll tell you what, I'll fax you a copy of this letter on their letterhead signed by Denise Bianni.
Let me read this to you on the air if you'll allow me, please.
This letter is dated October 19th, 1995 of last year.
I had written a letter to them complaining about their choice of title because I thought they were sensationalizing the topic and setting a tone that didn't, you know, just didn't engender open-mindedness or seriousness.
And also, again, in writing, requesting that they do all these tests.
This is the response letter I got.
Dear John, Thank you for your thoughtful facts of last week.
As far as the title, sir, I know the title.
Okay, hold on.
Hold on, everybody.
Hold on a moment.
We had a big tone there.
I'm sorry.
That's all right.
Please begin again, John.
Okay.
Dear John, Thank you for your thoughtful facts of last week.
As far as the title for our NOVA program goes, titles like teasers and promo spots are designed here by individuals not associated with the production, in other words, their marketing department, with the goal of bringing viewers to our programs.
Listen to the language carefully here.
According to them, a more subtle title would not serve the end of igniting interest in our program And bringing the widest possible PBS audience to the subject matter.
In other words, you know, the sensational title will bring a more higher rating.
There was also another concern about this title.
Susan and I, Susan is the assistant producer here, Susan and I proposed Alien Encounters or Abducted by Aliens, and our market research department determined that many viewers misread, quote, aliens as, quote, illegal immigrants.
I will certainly forward your letter and one from Bud Hopkins to our series producer and to our director of national programming.
You've also asked why NOVA did not expend the resources to conduct independent scientific tests for martial evidence for or against the literal interpretation of the abduction story.
As far as your willingness to take a polygraph test, let me assure you that nowhere in our program do we suggest that you or any abductees are being deceptive or dishonest.
As you know, polygraph tests cannot address external realities, but rather only the belief one has in the truth of a fact or event.
As far as psychological tests go, our research has convinced us that adequate psychological tests have been undertaken by Bud Hopkins, John Mack, and from another point of view, the late Nick Spanoff of Carleton University.
Since nowhere in our program do we suggest any psychopathology on the part of the abductees, there is no need to undertake more tests to prove or disprove such pathology, as far as MRI or other scanning tests.
Now, mind you, Art, I volunteered to expose my body to radiation so that these people could determine the presence or the lack of any foreign objects in my body.
Okay, what sort of response did I get here?
As far as MRI or other scanning tests to confirm the presence of alien tracking devices go, in principle I would be willing to participate in such a test if a qualified licensed and independent physician believed there was a reasonable medical indication for the test.
To expose any individuals to medical procedures without medical indication seems to me irresponsible and something Melva cannot participate in.
Should you or other athletes have need of such a test, however, Melva would be happy.
Now listen to the wording.
Nova would be happy to bring in an independent radiologist to observe the test and to analyze the results.
In other words, if I went out and got a doctor to say that I needed these tests and then I paid for them, they would be willing to send an expert down to observe and analyze the results.
I told Denise Diani, hey listen, I volunteered to take the test, not pay for them.
She closes the letter by saying, I hope this addresses some of your concerns.
and I thank you again for your participation in our program.
Cecilia Denise Piani, who's the producer of this thing.
And who also apparently wrote what I just read to you.
Yes.
Indirectly.
Yeah, which is completely contradictory.
Yeah, indeed.
And just to go back to the issue of the physical evidence.
Yes, bud.
I explained to her that I had four samples from a landing area
in connection of a UFO landing, in connection with an abduction.
The soil had been baked to a rock-like intensity.
I have the regular control soil from outside.
I volunteered the soil to be studied by their people.
I had photographs of the site taken over a period of time.
Wait a minute, they say it's fungus here.
They said it's fungus without ever having looked at anything.
In other words, it is fungus in the same way that an abduction recollection is a false memory.
For the reason that UFOs don't exist, therefore they can't land, and therefore they can't do anything to the ground, and therefore any memory of such a landing or an experience has to be false, because they in their Infinite wisdom and an intense belief system know that such things can't happen.
They declined to look at any of the evidence I had, to look at the photographs, to have the photographs studied, or to have anybody come and look at any of the wounds on any of the abductees or learn anything about them.
They simply proclaimed them no evidence.
Well, they proclaimed them to be nothing more than the everyday bumps and bruises one might expect to get.
Well, I had a woman who was a writer for a rather cheap little magazine, but a debunker,
looked at one of these slides that I had and it has 55, I believe, perfect circles arranged
in a grid-like pattern with a large, perfectly symmetrical curve around each side,
and closing it, it's about two and a half inches across, it ended up on the hip,
about a high up, of a woman who had an abduction experience in Costa Rica,
and this woman proclaimed it an everyday, normal kind of bruise,
which as I always said made me wonder what this woman has on her panty while all this is,
But the point is, they declined to look at anything, to bring anybody around to study the scars, to look at any of the medical records.
They simply proclaimed that there is no evidence.
what Dr. Pritchard was talking about, and which I explained to them at the beginning.
As I said, we have every single solitary type of evidence one could possibly want to support the reality
of these abrupt experiences, except one type of evidence.
And I said, we do not have an object that could be taken into a laboratory,
and this is what Dr. Pritchard was talking about.
We do not have an object that all science would look at and say, this could not have originated on Earth.
In other words, we do not have a piece of the UFO.
I think the government's got them, but we don't.
We don't have an object that can be absolutely attested to as non-Earthly in its origin,
but we have every other single solitary kind of evidence.
Well, let's discuss this one lesser evidence that they mentioned here.
They say that you claim that you have X-rays showing an implant.
Now, surely they came to you and said, let us have the X-rays.
Yes, they did.
But I did not let them have that X-ray because this is a current, this is a piece of evidence which is crucial.
I'm certainly glad I didn't get them the X-ray too, knowing what's happened to everything else.
This is a case I'm working on right now that will be the subject of my book coming out in August.
The book is called Witness, a true story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO abduction.
This is an extraordinarily important piece of evidence and it's been studied by a neurosurgeon and so forth.
I did not, I have other sets of x-rays too, I did not let them have that material.
I said you can have everything else but.
And so, of course, I mean, I don't have to give NOVA everything I have.
No, you don't.
I'm curious.
I gave them everything that they wanted or everything that they could have wanted except those particular x-rays in several different cases.
Right, but give me a kind of a mental picture, if you would.
If they had received those x-rays, you know the quality of the x-rays, how do you think they would have debunked them?
Oh, I think they would have simply said, it has to be out.
In other words, it has to have been faked by the radiologist.
I mean, I can't think of any... There's no other way they could have said it.
There's not a mistake.
I mean, this is clearly a metallic object.
A very precise structure.
That's in one case.
In the case of a child in Europe, it looks rather different.
It's located in the brain.
I have three x-rays of different points of view.
I deliberately did not want them to have the x-ray material because I'm reserving that for my book.
I mean, I do have some rights to my own material.
I wasn't forthcoming with that.
I offer them absolutely anything else in the world Uh, is what they needed to look at.
But this simple idea of hiring Nova spent... an estimate that I've heard is that Nova spent something between one and two million dollars to make this program.
Yes.
They could have afforded to hire a surgeon to examine the wounds on people's, or plastic surgeons or whatever, on people's bodies and correlate what they have found about the nature of the cut with the accounts that the person remembers.
Absolutely not.
and what the parents remember about the wounds and so forth.
There was absolutely no investigation whatsoever.
All right, well, didn't they apply some expertise to the statement that these wounds are here,
or to be the normal everyday sort of bumps and bruises you might get?
Surely they offered some expert opinion saying that.
Absolutely not. They simply suppressed the evidence and declined to show it on their program.
That's incredible.
If I can interject for just one second, it's really important to note that it's okay.
I mean, you know, we don't mind if these people argue against the weight
that that kind of physical evidence may carry, but not to mention it at all,
and to in fact...
to deceive the American people by telling them that there is no physical evidence.
I think that's not science.
I mean, not in my book.
Well, they certainly call it science here to bring a scientific, NOVA kind of investigation into this area, and then they've applied none of what they claim.
Absolutely not.
If you could say that I presented physical evidence to them in slide form, photograph form, They didn't even, they simply suppressed it.
They refused to show it and pretended it didn't exist.
It might have meant something if they had shown the pictures and as John said they had
brought in an expert and he could have said well this could possibly be a fetish thrust
or we're not sure about this.
Incidentally the fungus issue about ground trees is totally idiotic because the fungus
in the cases I'm referring to, the fungus doesn't do anything in terms of turning the
soil to rock down below.
I mean they're almost fusing it plus it tends to grow in circles the fungus and this was
the ground was studied by an agricultural expert who examined it.
found that there was no fungus involved, plus the fact that one of the marks leading from
the circle, which seems to have to do with the takeoff path of the UFO, is 48 feet long
and it's a straight path about 3 feet wide, and this fungus of course never grows in that
area, which anyone could tell just by looking at the photograph.
But they simply made these assumptions.
We must remember that they had as a consultant Philip Klass.
He was the consultant and they brought in Baker and every kind of hardline skeptic who
was a Psycop committee member.
And, uh, uh, they made absolutely no attempt to investigate, to look into any of the evidence.
They suppressed evidence, and they intimidated witnesses, and ridiculed witnesses, and this is the shamefulness of this program.
Well, then there's this, Bud.
Unless I miss my guess, NOVA is at least in part, though it's controversial, funded by U.S. taxpayer dollars. It
certainly is. It's head of the Laudato Re'Athon and Merck.
I hope for our listeners that when you watch this program, that you may want to write in some kind of protest to, uh,
that's W.E.B.
We can give you an address here.
John, do you have the NOVA address handy?
Yes, right here on the letterhead.
It's WGBH Client Unit 125 Western Avenue.
client unit 125 Western Avenue.
That's in Boston, Massachusetts, and the zip code is 0.
If you could tell me one more time, WGBH Science Unit, 125 Western Avenue.
Boston, Massachusetts, 02134.
All right, you two hold on.
We'll do one more half hour.
Bud Hopkins is my guest with John Bolton in New York, responding to a program that's going to run, a NOVA program, this next week.
You're listening to the CBC Radio Network.
If I'm informed, one's just joining us this morning.
It is KLBI in Laramie, Wyoming.
And we got late word of this after we were actually on the air.
Manager Russ Janks, thank you.
And BB there, Jake Sherlock, thank you.
there uh... jake a lot thank you they are twelve ten and and larry has we continue
blanket city after city across america now Back to Bud Hopkins and John, both in New York.
And Bud, I've got a fax here.
It says, I've always thought of Carl Sagan as being a brilliant man of limited scope.
He's always denied the possibility of UFO contact, even though he admits the possibility of life on other planets is very high, and I've often thought Sagan himself might be an alien.
Seriously, could this novel program be disinformation created because of the very real alien autopsy film, which has the whole world abuzz?
Well, of course, I suppose anything's possible.
I'd rather not speculate on that, because I have my doubts about the validity of the alien autopsy film itself.
But there's a very important thing I want to bring up here.
I understand that what you were reading was a statement that came in on the fax from NOVA, is that correct?
Well, it's from NOVA, and it came from the Internet.
It didn't come directly from NOVA, but from a listener.
Because what's extremely interesting is, of course, this being a science program, they make absolute assertions
there, right, about the ground traces and fiscal marks. What's the evidence that they present
that supports their decision to, their description of this? What is the evidence that they
present that these are everyday bruises and so forth? Well, that was my question.
Is there any evidence at all? No, certainly not in this description,
which is entitled a letter from the producer. No.
No, not any at all.
NOVA just calculates that these are the following.
In other words, they're simply asserting an opinion and doing absolutely no scientific research whatsoever.
Yes, correct.
All right, let's cover one sensitive subject, Bud, so we can get it out of the way.
I know another person covered and a person who's been victim himself of what I consider
to be just an outright fraud, really, Professor John Mack.
They're surely going to go after John Mack.
John Mack has been attacked viciously on the program.
Yes.
Now, John Mack, the issue is the Donna Brassett affair with the woman said that she pretended
to be under hypnosis and made up a story about Chris Jeffs and Kennedy and so forth.
That is, of course, a problem.
John was too uncritical, I believe, in fighting that at the time or doubting it or arguing it with it.
And that, of course, gave rise to the idea that she had fooled him and so forth.
I don't want to get into this because I think really you should have John on to explain his situation and defend himself.
I've had two or three conversations with John in the past 24 hours.
He is absolutely irate.
about the way he's been handled and the things that have been said about him by Donna Bassett
who has said some extraordinary things to me about John.
For instance, he has said that he is a CIA agent who has devoted a lot of his time to mind control
experiments. Oh really?
It was of course absurd and many other statements of the same sort. I would say that Donna Bassett's
credibility is a very dubious quantity here.
That does not let John off the hook though of having been perhaps less careful than he could have been in handling that, but this is a new field, a new area of study.
He's a very open and caring man, and he trusted her, and it turns out he shouldn't have.
Well, Bud, I guess I would ask you what cautions, when you've got somebody like John, who we've got with us this morning, what cautions do you inject as you conduct an investigation that would catch something like John Miss?
He was fairly new at it.
Right.
Yes, I got, of course, one of the cautions.
He's a good-hearted man.
And he had no reason to feel that she was picking him.
It's a highly complex story, and so I think it's much better that she be discussing it with John.
I'll do that.
But the point is, in terms of built-in methods, there isn't any of us who couldn't probably be fooled by some sort of very careful researcher who is an excellent actor and so forth.
In some way or other, just as you could be fooled, or Nova could be fooled, or anybody could be fooled.
But the point is, I have ways in which I can test, especially under hypnosis, people which I would rather not go into, because it's important that I keep this material secret.
There are testing methods which have many times, or not many times, but quite often, have exposed somebody who is in fact contagious.
Well, as you pointed out, John is certainly good-hearted, and I'm sure he feels like he's been struck on the head by lightning here.
In your opinion, will this further put this in danger, his academic standing, or is that now fairly well settled, despite what Nova may do?
Oh, no, I think that Nova is attempting to... Don't forget, the basic evils that they present on the program are myself and John Mack.
I mean, we are the ones who have brought this all about.
We are the ones who have put this in the heads of totally innocent people.
And in fact, what really emerges is that there are two classes of people we're dealing with, charlatans, that's John Mack and myself, and mentally ill people, which are the apathetes.
That'd be you, Joe.
That's exactly the way it boils down if you read carefully the implications of it.
Obviously nothing is stated that boldly, but that's exactly the tone of this really, I
think, totally dishonest program.
They're out to harm John as deeply and wound him as harshly as they possibly can and to
do the same to me and to do the same, of course, to the FFTs.
So, in a sense, John's mistake is going to be mixed in in a careful blend with Bud Hopkins.
Yes, actually the program ends with John's mistake, as if, uh, this is the final proof that there's nothing to this.
With regard to the mental illness, John... Yes?
How would you respond to that?
I mean, you did offer to go to a psychiatrist, did you not?
Yes, I did, and they never... You'd think that a science program investigating something as odd and unusual as alien abduction would snap up an offer like that.
Any mystery, John, of mental illness?
No, sir.
To tell you the truth, I'm a 47-year-old man.
I've been married for 27 years.
I've raised two beautiful children to adulthood.
My daughter's 23.
She just recently made me a granddad.
My son is 21.
I've earned a living as a graphic artist most of my adult life.
I'm a homeowner.
Um, I've lived my life in an almost aggressively normal way.
The only unusual thing going on in my life has to do with these alien encampments.
Other than that, uh, you couldn't tell me apart from John Belk on the street.
All right, you two, listen.
We've only got a few moments left, but I want to let a couple of people ask questions.
Leslie Rockies, you're on here with Bud Hopkins and John.
Where are you, please?
Yes, I'm in Scottsdale.
Arizona, all right.
Arizona.
We love you down here, Art, and appreciate your program.
Mr. Hopkins, I'm reading the book Abduction by Debbie Jordan and Kathy Mitchell, and it's a great comfort to me.
I had an experience in 1966 when I was 12 years old and I had a witness with me, my grandmother, and around 1980 I had the misfortune of talking with Dr. Philip Klass.
You've given him a promotion.
He's not a doctor.
I'm simply a print journalist with no expertise in the subject.
And there's a big agenda. I would like to add to that.
What was your conversation?
He assured me, this was on a talk radio program in the Bay Area, San Francisco,
and he reassured me that it was another balloon that I saw.
Of course, I was greatly relieved at that time.
He answered all my questions, everything I wanted to know about this incident.
And I matured and did some reading and realized that there was no way that this was a weather balloon that I saw.
Actually, my grandmother recalls we weren't able to move, and there was missing time, and 11 balloons tend to do that.
Alright, look, thank you very much.
I want to ask you this.
In America, or in the world, what is the best evidence, or compilation of numbers, how many people have had, or claim to have had, experiences?
Well, we don't really know.
It's better than a really careful compilation of everyone's case material.
But in terms of the Roper survey, which I was involved with, with Dr. David Jacobs and others, and Dr. John Mack was involved in it too, by asking carefully worded questions and not mentioning abduction, but mentioning the kinds of symptoms That, uh, abductees commonly report.
Uh, we came out with a very staggeringly high figure of perhaps as many as 1 in 50 Americans reporting experiences, strange, odd personal experiences, such as periods of missing time with no explanation, etc.
That, uh, are the kinds of things abductees report.
So we have no absolutely accurate measurement, of course, but the numbers are staggeringly high.
All right.
Quickly, Houston to Rockies.
You're on air with Bud Hopkins and John in New York.
Good morning, Art.
Tim in Denver.
Yes, sir.
A couple questions.
First of all to Bud and John, have both of you seen the show in its entirety as it's going to be shown on CBS?
Good question.
Yes.
The only thing we have, we saw it over, well over a week ago.
Not because they sent us any, but happy that we saw it.
I have a friend in the media who secured a copy and was concerned enough to get us an advanced copy because I don't know if Bud did, but I requested an advanced copy on a couple of occasions and they told me that none was available.
I see.
And to John, I'm really intrigued.
I've never experienced anything like what you have gone through.
However, I don't doubt it in any way.
I think that a lot of people have experienced this.
A person, how does your family deal with that?
How do you deal with your friends?
I mean, is it a topic of discussion on a relatively normal basis in your life?
Or is it something that it was hard for you to come out with?
I would imagine it's the same kind of a thing for a rape victim to come forward or, you know, something similar.
That's the only thing I can compare it to.
And as far as dealing with friends and family, Coming forward publicly kind of put an end to my choice as to who I talked to or told about it or who I didn't.
I'm kind of out there now.
I have nothing to hide.
I use my real name.
I don't hide behind dots or anything.
You appeared without a screen or anything on Nova Jones.
No sir, I mean although I was born and raised in the city, my parents are both country folks and one thing that they taught me from the day I was born was about the importance of honesty and telling the truth and that's all I'm trying to do.
So there was no screen up there, they didn't hide your face or disguise your identity?
No sir, and I used my real name.
That's a very brave thing to do under the circumstances.
It's a very brave thing, and of course, one of the issues is that many, many people who would have given, of course, tremendous evidence based on the fact that they would be highly credentialed, such as a psychiatrist or a police officer, are, of course, the people who would not come forward on the program because the producers insisted that everyone had to show their face on camera, otherwise they would not be Uh, they would have to consider it for the program.
Well, back to Close Encounters, do you want to report to UFO?
No, I don't want to report one of those.
Yes, exactly.
So, after this program, I think there's going to be more people of all kinds of cuts saying, uh, I don't want to report one of those.
And is that the most probable agenda, do you suppose?
Well, I think that there's a double agenda for the program.
One is to suppress evidence all over the place and misrepresent the nature of the phenomenon, so it seems like a silly thing that can be easily explained away, rather than the deeply complex phenomenon that really is, with all of its attendant supportive evidence.
All of that has been totally misrepresented in the most scientifically dishonest and unethical way possible, and of course, The corollary is to discourage credentialed people in the scientific areas from ever coming forward and talking about their own personal experiences.
And let's look at the possible political agenda here.
Traditionally, PBS has been funded through donation and by taxpayer dollars.
Now, their budget has been under some pressure, to put it mildly, and I wonder if they are under pressure to produce ratings to justify their existence.
I think that might be highly possible and I caution everyone listening when they are next asked to support public broadcasting to understand that because we are asked on these programs all the time to help fund them and of course I have enormous respect for public broadcasting but when such a travesty Uh, the scientific program is foisted upon the American people on such a crucial issue.
Uh, is this something that we should wholeheartedly support?
I'm not so sure.
And you feel the same way, Jones?
Yes, sir.
Uh, I take it you're disappointed.
Now when did you begin to realize, Jones, When did you begin to realize what this was going to be?
About three months after the initial taping which would make it May or June of last year.
They called me to recruit me to, you know, they asked me for permission to do a photo
session in order to create promotional materials and packaging for the media.
They recruited me at that time to help promote the program.
I think what they had in mind at the time was to get me on the air with Denise Dionne
and I would be the mindless idiot that would talk about little grey men and flying saucers
and Denise would be the authority figure representing NOVA and the scientific community.
And thank God because I have some friends in the media that were concerned enough to
send me an advance copy, we were able to utilize this time to get our side of the story across.
Everybody who watches the program should bear in mind what they have heard this morning from the both of you as they watch that program.
I would hope so.
It's either science or it's not science.
It's either science or it's opinion.
And I always thought NOVA was in the science business.
I guess until now.
Before we go off the air, I really want to thank you on the air for giving us an opportunity to tell our side.
It's a heck of a lot more than Novavix.
Well, I want to give you the opportunity to once again give out the address where people can write in protest of what's about to happen.
Okay, that's WGBH Science Unit 1-2-5, Weston Avenue, that's Boston, Massachusetts, and the zip code is 0-2-1-3-4.
And I guess all you both would ask is that the people who have heard this program, and then will view the NOVA program, render an honest opinion to them.
One way or the other, Ross.
Well, I want to thank you both for being on, and Uh, Brad, uh, you've got a book coming out called Witness.
When is that going to be out?
That will be out in August.
Uh, Witness, the, uh, true story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO abduction.
So everybody can look for that, probably on bookstands everywhere.
And, uh, as Melvin said, it will give rise to more false memories.
Uh, trying to do a little number on the book, even, in advance.
Uh, remember when you watch the NOVA program, watch for the physical evidence that is not there.
Watch for the references to, uh, cases that have nothing to do with hypnosis, which are not there.
Yes, exactly.
Watch for their references to abductions that take place in the daytime, because that's not there either.
They managed to suppress all of this material and more, giving totally false impressions.
It takes hours to uncover and display the turnover of every rock on this program.
You both have had a chance to see the show we haven't yet seen.
In a word, how would you describe that show?
You both have had a chance to see the show we haven't yet seen.
In a word, how would you describe that show?
and display the turnover of every rock on this program.
Alright, look, you both have had a chance to see the show we haven't yet seen.
In a word, how would you describe that show?
How would you give your word?
Oh, my word?
Uh, how about sham?
Alright, bud.
I would just say totally dishonest.
Um, good enough.
I want to thank you both, uh, for both being honest and, uh, being here at what must be nearly four o'clock in the morning.
Just about four o'clock in the morning in New York.
It is.
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you.
We appreciate your time.
From the high desert, good night to you, Bud Hopkins and John.
And there it is, with a preview of what's coming up on NOVA, question mark, next week.
I'm Art Bell.
There's more.
It's Friday night, Saturday morning.
Stay right where you are.
You can fly it for essentially free for 90 days.
Call 1-800-4060-GMX.
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