Glenn Campbell, a former Boston programmer turned Area 51 investigator, debunks wild claims like genetic experiments or alien turrets while detailing his open-source research near the Nevada base. He dismisses Bob Lazar’s unverified "drone" reports but acknowledges military secrecy, citing Soviet aircraft recovery and stealth tech testing—no evidence of extraterrestrial activity exists. Campbell also links Dreamland’s UFO discussions to government surveillance, noting tensions among researchers like John Lear and George Knapp. The episode blends comet speculation (Hale-Bopp) with skepticism toward fringe theories, urging fact-based inquiry over conspiracy-driven narratives. [Automatically generated summary]
Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
From the high desert, it's Sunday and another dreamland.
Good evening, everybody.
I'm Art Bell.
Let me give you a little bit of a sort of a thumbnail sketch of what's about to happen this evening.
And it's quite a bit.
First, we'll go to Philadelphia.
Our regular update from that person known to be the world's expert, the world's leading authority on animal mutilations and crop circles, Linda Howell.
Then, a change of pace on Dreamland.
Glenn Campbell is going to sing about the Rocky Mountains.
No, just kidding.
Not that, Glenn Campbell.
This is the Area 51 Glenn Campbell.
That may or may not mean anything to many of you, but he is a man who has spent, well, we'll find out how long, long time up at Area 51 watching the goings-ons, the goings-ons, the goings-on, perhaps plural.
And we'll talk to Glenn Campbell.
So that is what's coming up on Dreamland, beginning just about dung.
Now, to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on the way out, and Linda Howe.
And you also faxed me the July 30th London Telegraph article in which science correspondent Robert Matthews wrote, quote, what fascinates astronomers and worries some is that this object is still far beyond the orbit of Jupiter, yet it can be seen with small telescopes.
That means the object might be more than a thousand miles across, a hundred times bigger than Halley's comet, and well able to extinguish all life if it hit the Earth.
That was a quote, and then it also noted that Dr. Marsden, Brian Marsden at Harvard, who has been an expert in comets there, said, quote, it is unheard of for a comet to be visible in small telescopes while so far away.
It could become the comet of the millennium as it comes in toward the sun over the next year or two, unquote.
Well, that was the London Telegraph, and I checked with Sky and Telescope, a very respected forum, both for astronomers and amateur astronomers, and it reported that this is the first time that two amateur astronomers have ever been able with the 16-inch reflector telescope that they were using to pick up something that is at 11 magnitude glow.
And because they took so many positional observations and calculations, that they were able to determine that this is now seven astronomical units from the Sun, which is really way out there beyond Jupiter and further away than any comet discovered by amateurs before.
The fact that it could be seen at all, as the London Telegraph pointed out, suggested, in terms of Sky and Telescopes forum, that this may be some kind of an object, a comet or other that is doing outbursts.
It means that the light is changing.
It is appearing five to ten times magnitude brighter than normal.
And then this past week the light seemed to dim, according to the amateur astronomers.
And a man in New Mexico who got out his 24-inch reflector and a charged couple device.
And he says that he has found something in this what's called the spiral coma at the rear of this object that is typical of another comet that had what's called a light outburst that's not very well understood.
And right now, there is a columnist for the Sky and Telescope who says that when this outburst occurs in a comet, sometimes a second outburst occurs about 30 days later.
And what they are intrigued by is that this current observation, which is now just about a week and a half old, the comet has a fan-shaped head as of July 31st.
That is also unusual.
And Marsden at Harvard has calculated that this particular object on the track and in the course that it is will reach its closest point in March or April of 1997 just inside the Earth's orbit.
The magazine says, quote, it will grace the pre-dawn sky for North America observers that spring, but how bright it will get is still anybody's guess, unquote.
It could become the astronomical sensation at the end of this decade, or it might go careening off depending upon the Jupiter influence.
And the big unanswered question that you and I discussed, Art, is if it's picked up at that distance now by 16-inch telescopes, is this something that means that this object is huge, the 1,000 miles in diameter, or is there something strange going on with light fluctuations that are not understood?
And the fact that Sky and Telescope is writing this kind of a story, getting it out on the internet, and there'll probably be a big article upcoming.
This is an object art to be watched seriously, seriously, as we went through all of those pieces of comet that broke or meteorite or whatever it was or asteroid that broke into Jupiter.
This is another one of those stories that will be watched now from now until the spring of 97.
And you and I will have to keep updating this and doing reports on Dreamland.
And one thing I think I would like to do after I get back from England is probably check in with Brian Marsden at Harvard and do an interview with him.
Yeah, and the London Telegraph also reported last week that thousands of people from Scotland to southern England witnessed a brilliant fireball believed to be part of a comet or asteroid or something burning up in the Earth's atmosphere.
One eyewitness at South Shields, England reported, quote, it was like a huge floodlight lighting everything.
And this was seen by people in several pieces of the British Isles.
Well, it reminds me, too, of today I talked with Nancy Talbot in Massachusetts, who has been getting a lot of coordinated reports from England concerning the crop circles.
And she says that people have been reporting green lights, orange lights, white lights, all kinds of moving lights this summer over fields either where formations have formed or over fields in which the next field over formations form.
And there have been so many of these eyewitness sightings that people are associating the lights with an area where something forms.
And I leave for England tomorrow.
And even though harvest is partly underway, if there is a fresh formation to report about next Sunday, I will have the latest news wherever it is from wherever I am in England.
And in just a few minutes, I'm going to have a very interesting piece relating to this whole issue of what a non-human being might look like.
But I wanted to bring you all up to date on a new formation here in the United States.
Last Sunday in the Press Democrat newspaper of Santa Rosa, California, the front page carried a color photograph of an odd symbol in a horse pasture and the headline, quote, triangular mystery on Santa Rosa Hill, unquote.
I called and talked to the owners of the pasture who do not want to talk publicly yet, but they confirmed a very surprising fact.
The 150-foot-long formation of an equilateral triangle with a circle at each corner that's very reminiscent of one of England's most famous formations at Barbary Castle in 1991.
This formation in California actually emerged on Easter weekend in April, and yet no one reported anything until this newspaper report last Sunday, four months later.
A relative who lives on this horse ranch said that he was awakened by a very bright flash of light the night before he and his family discovered the triangle and circles on the hillside.
The wife of the owner of this horse pasture told me that the family discussed it and they decided they would do nothing.
They would not erase it.
They wouldn't report it.
They just left it alone.
Now the grass is dry, but the triangle and the three circles are a very clear dark outline in this still dry pasture grass even now.
And I have color photographs that two different sets of investigators in California took and sent to me this week.
And everybody is remarking, including the owners, about how clear this equilateral triangle and circles are.
And everyone makes the same comment.
The hill is so steep, the grass rises up a steep hill, and yet this is a perfect triangle and perfect circle.
And one person said, if someone hoaxed it, how could they do that on a hillside that is as steep as that one?
Rolling rollers and keeping them under control, making perfect triangles and circles would be difficult.
And no one anywhere has claimed any knowledge about this or having made it.
So there is a distinct mystery in the Santa Rosa area of California.
While comets are coming toward us and mysterious formations appear in cereal crops and everyone is arguing about whether or not the humanoid bodies in the now controversial Roswell autopsy film are real or human genetic anomalies, I continue to get male faxes in phone calls from people all over the country who report totally conscious encounters with non-human beings.
One man in Florida even described several types that are different, which we might be comparing, or at least worth considering comparing, to the Santilli autopsy story.
This man said that I could play this excerpt on Dreamland.
He's asked to remain anonymous for now, but the details of his experience are so vivid that I think it is worth sharing with our audience and keeping in mind maybe we're hearing firsthand about real human encounters with these beings and this may or may not help us in thinking about this alleged autopsy Santilli film.
So here is a man from Florida.
This is current conscious encounter.
unidentified
75%, 70% of the encounters that I had that what I saw were, that what I was allowed to see were primarily the little what I call drones or worker types.
They're about three, three and a half feet tall and they pretty much fit the description of generally what you'll see on television shows or magazines, which is the sort of big teardrop eyes, the pointed faces.
I call them drones, I call them workers.
The aliens that I'm familiar with that seem to manage them or run them are in essence about the same size, atrophied looking, skinny looking, Body-wise.
They almost look like someone, and I was told that I shouldn't say this, but I can't help it because this is what they look like to me.
They look like an individual who would be in the latter stages of that terrible disease AIDS.
They just look that sickly.
But yet I know they're not sick, I know they're strong, but they just affect their appearance when you look at them like, oh, this guy's in the latter stages of terrible malnutrition or AIDS or something like that.
As far as their faces are concerned, or their heads, their heads are slightly bigger than normal.
Their chins are somewhat pointed.
Their ears, there's no ears, it's like little holes for ears.
The faces are leather-like or wrinkled.
The eyes are bigger than normal, but not humongous, but somewhat bigger than normal.
No eyebrows.
They look older, like older people or older men-like looking.
They have not much of a mouth and sort of like a nodule, two little hole nodules for a nose.
At the best I can tell, not five fingers, but I think four, the best that I could tell.
These are the ones that I feel are like the true alien, genealogically speaking, race.
And I think ones that are about the same size that do all the work are sort of a creation that they put together where they farm material from us in order to make those.
What he just said was where they farm us in order to make those, implying that we may be dealing with a sophisticated level of different types of beings, one in charge of others that are worker bees.
The worker bees may be the ones we're interacting with.
They may be cloned, genetically created, and they may be created from material harvested on our planet from animals and people.
And this gets into what Bud Hopkins has reported about, the creation of hybrids.
This is where the animal mutilations may or may not come in.
And if something is mixing and matching genes and they are harvesting from the Earth, I think this is where this story is so important to try to understand because the implications could be huge in our future.
And one of the interesting things to keep in mind is that in the Roswell, the alleged Roswell autopsy of humanoids that Ray Sintelli has, the fingers and the toes, as I've seen very clear photographs, are clearly six.
And not any case that I can recall have abductees described six fingers or six toes.
It has always been like this man in Florida.
They either have four long fingers that are slightly claw-like or three or some variation on that theme.
Linda Howe, certainly acknowledged by almost everybody, everybody that I know of, actually, to be the world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilation, with us next Sunday from England, where there's a lot going on.
Well, coming up in a moment, Glenn Campbell, right now, North American trading and their easy Rio.
Glenn Campbell, 35 years of age, is the principal local activist, seeking greater government accountability at, guess where, Area 51, a secret military base 90 miles north of Las Vegas.
Formerly a successful computer programmer from Boston, Campbell moved to the remote town of Rachel, Nevada in January of 93 to investigate the many strange stories emanating from the base.
His carefully researched book, The Area 51 Viewer's Guide, helped bring mainstream attention to a story that's been dominated by UFO and conspiracy buffs with little concern for the facts.
And indeed, mainstream media has jumped on it.
You'll recall a recent Larry King show in which he sat out in the desert with his desk in the desert and had some guests on the subject and his even more recent piece on UFOs.
So there's lots and lots of mainstream media attention now to Area 51.
Up in Perump, Yeah, and we have a somewhat remote, nevertheless, pretty good viewers' location here in Perump for Area 51.
And what flies up gets high enough up over the mountain range.
We see it here.
And there are a lot of people with a lot of stories in Perump, and I'm one of the guys who's got a story, and I am going to tell it to you next hour, I think, and get your view.
I rented a mobile home, and I settled in to pursue the mystery as I thought it should be pursued.
I did not spend all of my time looking in the sky for things in the sky because, quite frankly, I think that's not the most productive way to approach this.
The question is, if you see a light in the sky and it's maybe not earthly, where do you go with that information and how do you pursue it further?
It's kind of a dead end.
The most you can do is write it down and perhaps report it to others.
But I take it, no matter how hard you knocked on their door up there, I mean, nobody came out in uniform and said, well, we, the government, are now ready to meet with you, Glenn Campbell, and we'll tell you what we know.
But occasionally, I think you will admit, things would pop over the hill, and so the locals in Rachel must have been treated to occasional shows of this and that, and there must be a lot of local stories.
The majority of the stories that I hear come from, frankly, from outsiders who are looking to the sky.
Figure if you are living in a small town, you go about your daily business, you go to sleep at night, you keep your eyes down, and you don't notice things.
Well, the whole source, perhaps, of most of this Area 51 interest came from Bob Lazar, a Las Vegas resident who came forward in 1989 on a local Las Vegas television station to claim that he had worked with alien craft at a site just south of Area 51 at Papoose Lake.
This is a very detailed story, a very coherent story that was just limited to this hardware that he claims to have worked with.
He says he worked with discs, and he can explain in great detail how these discs operate.
Although he does not know where they came from, he feels certain that these are extraterrestrial disks that the government has somehow acquired.
This was the spark that set off the interest in Area 51 and sent everybody up to Rachel to look for flying saucers themselves.
And the odd thing is, they saw them.
It seems that everyone who goes up there to see UFOs, expecting to see UFOs, does indeed see them.
But what I have seen in my time there are a lot of exotic light, the lights that I've eventually learned to explain as military aircraft, military activity.
What people don't understand is that although Area 51, this small block of land is strictly off-limits to even to military pilots, that the land all surrounding Area 51, and this is as big as the state of Connecticut, is a major war game exercise area.
Every pilot, every fighter pilot in the free world will come here at some point to test his skills in realistic combat.
There are a lot of stories in the past of aircraft straying into the zone and landing, and what they are met with, they are not shot down, but they are certainly met with a debriefing party.
It is equivalent of flying over the White House unauthorized.
This is restricted airspace.
Pilots know that if they do anything like that, they will lose their license.
They will be heavily fined.
There's no real record of anybody being shot down, but it's certainly a possibility.
I think no matter what your attitude toward UFOs may be, the question is, should the government have a base that doesn't exist, that the Russians can see, but they cannot be acknowledged to the American people?
This is a very serious accountability issue, and one of the major issues that I am pursuing.
I think that I came here interested in the UFO phenomena, but what I came to see that the real issue is are these human issues of government accountability and human philosophy that really we have to get over before we can get to the UFO problem.
It's now been, the F-117 wing is gone, I think, to New Mexico or someplace or another.
And is it not fair to imagine or project that if the F-117 is now an operational aircraft, a very black project, but it's now operational, I mean, it's out there, it's like off the production line and flying, then with the annexation of additional lands around there, that means the base is definitely still active.
So they must be a generation or maybe two or more ahead of the F-117.
But whether this is one big project, say another stealth aircraft or a hypersonic aircraft, or whether it's a lot of little projects, we just don't have that information.
It is logical, but a generation, for example, in aviation terms might not be too exciting to you and I. In other words, at Area 51, it is proper, the actual base, the actual area that we know as Area 51, is probably restricted to conventional weapons development.
If we're going to talk about flying saucers, we're probably talking somewhere behind Area 51, deeper in the restricted zone.
That is correct, and it's a very good place to put a secret saucer base, whether you're fictionalizing one or creating a real one, because this is a place where you simply cannot go, where you simply cannot see.
You look at satellite images, for example, the Russian satellite image, and you see nothing there, but Bob Lazar describes something that's built into the hillside where you wouldn't see anything.
I've talked to former workers who don't laugh off the Bob Lazar story because when they were there, although they were compartmentalized, they knew that there was some project going on across the hills over in this area, and this area was referred to as S4.
Well, as you know, a lot of people who work there live in the Perump area and commute as well.
Now, there are a lot of people who over coffee or in a private moment will sort of give you a wink and a nod and maybe a little more, indicating that they know damn well something was going on up there and is going on up there, but they won't talk about it.
Ah, now this is where I differ from many other researchers.
I try to collect the whole story as one unit, and I don't go off and try to check each individual detail.
I look for the coherence of the story.
And this is a different approach.
This is saying that I'm going to spend a lot of time with a lot of people, learn what the story is that they're telling me, and eventually connections will come together that will either prove it true or false.
That's why I don't say this is 100% truth.
I say this is a mystery that's worthy of exploration.
And I've been swearing I wouldn't keep telling this story, but it's unavoidable.
I've got probably the world's expert here on what's out at Area 51 or what is not.
Coming home one night, late at night, about two years ago now, my wife, it was dark, there was about three quarters of a moon, and we were about a mile away from our house.
So I won't identify specifically where it was.
But here in the paramalee, and my wife turned around and said, what the hell's that?
She said, what's that?
Stop the car.
And so I stopped the car and got out of the car and looked up.
And here coming from behind us, and to give you the setting, it was a quiet night.
You could hear crickets going at a quarter mile away easily.
I mean, dead, flat, quiet as it is out here.
And coming up from behind us, from roughly a, let's see, it would have been a east-southeast direction was this triangular craft about 150 feet in the air above us.
There was enough light with, you know, three-quarter moon or better, so you could see the substance of this craft.
That's how close it was, no more than 150 feet above, and approaching our automobile quickly.
It was toward the, let's see, would have been west, southwest direction.
Well, let's see, west and then west-northwest, I'm sorry and so we just stood there and it flew above us it just no not flew excuse me floated it didn't make a sound I would estimate 150 feet at least from one edge of the triangle to the next there was a flashing red light in the front and two white solid lights on the back edge of each triangle point it
It was awesome.
You know, I was in the Air Force.
I know what an aircraft is, and I know what aerodynamic flight is, and I know what it takes to power an aircraft.
This thing floated at a very slow speed, directly above our heads, and we stood there, and both of us watched it float directly across the valley until finally it was out of sight.
It was a remarkable story, and it was a couple of weeks later.
Somebody sent me a newspaper clipping from my very own paper here in Pahrump saying the Air Force had many inquiries, and yes, they admitted there was a secret mission involving a C-130 that flew low over the Pahrump Valley, and that was the totality of the explanation from Nellis Air Force Base.
Now, that's an insult.
I flew C-130s.
It would have rattled my bones at that distance.
There's no question about what I saw.
I saw it.
My wife saw it.
I put her on the air, made her go on the air, and backed me up.
Well, this last week, I talked to two other individuals refusing to go on the air, both who live here in Pahrump, who confirmed that night they also saw it.
There was no mistaking then nor now what I saw, as I described to you, close enough so that, you know, you could see the actual substance of the craft.
And it was just a dead triangle.
It couldn't have been an F-117 or anything like that.
And it was gigantic.
Now, doggone it, I saw it.
I've never seen any other.
And I don't know if I would like to see one again.
Well, I guess my analogy would be to an island kingdom that has had no contact with white people or with outside culture.
And this culture, this new explorer's land on the shore of this island, it may be a traumatic experience.
experience but the the islanders do adjust uh provided they're not overwhelmed by the the invaders um i don't nothing i see indicates that the aliens are in are evil in any way or are out to take us over they obviously if they had that that intention they would have done that long ago they would have blown us out of the solar system let's uh center back on area 51.
In your Area 51 viewer's guide, right on, I don't know, page one or page two, page one, I think, it says, Warning, Freedom Ridge and Whitesides are now closed.
And you warn people, you go up into these areas and you're going to get arrested.
uh have you i i take it that uh during the time it was legal for you to do so uh you have well i've certainly been up there uh hundred a hundred times perhaps and never seen anything uh ex aside from some big aircraft which perhaps i wasn't wasn't uh supposed to see uh This is, among other things, Area 51 has been where we keep our Russian arsenal, the aircraft that we have purloined in various ways from the Soviets.
There remain a number of distant mountains that you can climb to, again, see the base, but from a much greater distance.
This would be 25 miles, which across the desert, you can still see the base, but you're going to need a pretty good telescope to see very much.
Being Pickaboo Peak, for example, is an 8,000-foot peak.
It's a strenuous two-hour hike to get to it.
You can't get there in the winter when it's snowed in.
But if you're willing to take this hike, you can see the base.
And it might be a better viewpoint in some ways than the Freedom Ridge viewpoint, because whenever anyone was in Freedom Ridge, the guards would report right back that someone's there.
And as they say, watchdog goes into effect, meaning that they will call off secret aircraft and suppress operations while you're there.
Well, this is, I call it a sacred site, a religious site.
There is a mailbox, a rancher's mailbox on this lonely Highway 375, where because this is the only landmark in a very long stretch of empty highway, this is where the UFO believers gathered to look for UFOs.
I personally try to stay away from that because it's become such a social center.
And I believe that the government, if it is at all wise, would not put on a display for people who just happen to show up.
But this is the place where the true believers go to look for UFOs.
And as I say, when they're looking for them, they see them because there's a lot of lights in the sky that could be ambiguous.
Again and again, and I come right back to the fact.
I think that the moment that Bob Lazar came forward with his story saying that the UFOs are real, I think they would have changed their operations in such a way that they're not going to put them on display for tourists.
So I think that no time is a good time.
It's a fascinating area.
It's a great place to gaze at the stars because you have no light pollution up there, and you can see things for 100 miles that you just can't see in the big city.
But I don't think you should go there expecting to see UFOs.
What kind of security people, I mean, if you violated this, went up to Freedom Ridge, had a camera with you, and so forth, and they closed in on you, are these plainclothes people who meet you sort of security service or what can tell us about that?
The best information is that they work for a government contractor, E, G, and G, but they will not identify themselves.
They will not identify who they work for.
And if you try to approach them, they'll certainly run away.
It's a very curious phenomenon.
However, if you stick your big toe across that line, you're suddenly going to find a whole lot of them surrounding you, and they will not be gentle.
Generally, this means face down in the dirt, and you're probably there for an hour or so until they call the local sheriff, who eventually hauls you off and charges you.
We're talking with, and soon you'll be able to, Glenn Campbell, who is probably the world's expert on Area 51.
He'll be back in a moment.
North American Trading has done a very wench in the unit of Darecat XLT 2500, 2500 XLT.
You might check with Bob Crane and see if he's got any of those in stock.
Like some UHF or VHF antennas.
And it says Area 51 Research Center.
Now, I'm guessing, but if somebody came by Rachel and they're interested in this sort of thing, I'll bet you've had 10 million knocks on that door, haven't you?
So even though you weren't, while you were living there, getting direct sightings, you just felt you were in the right place to be gathering information about it.
My job, as I see it, is to build a base of information.
I do this principally on the internet, building up my section on the World Wide Web so that any information that I have that comes into me becomes available to anyone else who wants it.
Well, I'm going to, what I'm going to do is, when we get back, I'll let you give out your web address if you would like.
And we'll also tell people how to get.
And there's a lot of good information in the Area 51 Viewer's Guide.
It tells you how to get there, what to watch out for, what to be careful of, what you might see, where you might best see it, how to avoid getting arrested.
Okay, the web address is I can give out this long address, but if anyone doesn't write it down, you can usually find my page simply by looking for any UFO page and jumping through it to find mine.
I have been visited by a number of aliens, space aliens in fact, that will tell me that they come from all different star systems, from Draconis, from Pathleades, from various planets here in our solar system.
And my inclination is to say they've got a screw loose, but I stop short of that.
I say that really how I evaluate a person is on their human skills, and most of these aliens don't have those human skills.
But there is a great spectrum.
There's very reliable people who I can tell after talking with shortly that what they're saying has great credibility.
There's the rest of the majority of people, for example, who report things to me, I have to take with a grain of salt because I don't know them.
I don't understand their mental processes.
This is something you have to get involved with as a UFO researcher.
You have to understand the people that you are talking to and how their perception works.
As I say, well, let's say there's 2% who are real loons, and 2% who are extremely reliable, who talk with extreme precision, and everyone else fits into sort of a gray area.
Good information can come from anywhere in the spectrum.
You just have to be willing to filter out whatever noise that this person is producing internally.
They don't mesh exactly, but they mesh well enough to say, well, if this is real, then they reflect upon each other.
But like all these stories, I stop short of saying, it's completely real.
I'm at the stage of I'm investigating something.
I want to collect the facts.
I want to see how the facts mesh together before I make a judgment.
And I think that if you collect and organize the data right, the solution will show itself.
You don't have to make a decision.
You don't have to force any belief upon it.
Anyway, I can tell you a little bit about this man's story.
He claims to have worked with, to have designed certain components of a simulator, which a flight simulator trained pilots to fly flying disks, which we have reproduced from alien technology.
Well, I would presume that even Glenn Campbell must wonder: well, does that mean that Glenn Campbell is going to be used as a flashpoint to disseminate disinformation or just to muddy the waters out there somehow?
Or does it mean that Glenn Campbell has been appointed to disseminate information about what's really going on?
What we're talking about is a hypersonic aircraft, presumably the fastest in the world, anywhere from Mach 4 to Mach 7 that was supposedly under development by the Air Force to replace the SR-71, which was mysteriously retired earlier in the 90s.
The question is, does the government have such a plane?
And to this day, I do not know.
There was certainly a project in the works to build such a plane, whether it got off the ground, whether it was flown at Groom Lake, I just don't know.
While we're on the subject of budgets and very expensive aircraft, the report on the B-2 the other day was pretty pathetic from the GAO.
It said the B-2 failed tests regarding whether it would be shot down, failed tests regarding whether it was even stealth, in other words, it can be seen on radar, and generally failed most of its tests, according to the GAO.
This is an indictment of how our black budget aircraft development works.
It is the sort of thing that, you know, all UFOs aside, the reason that you cannot let the government do anything it wants with money.
It has to be held accountable as the project is proceeding to make sure that the taxpayer gets the bang for its buck and these billions that we're spending.
I think this is a symptom of exactly the sort of thing that we're trying to change here, to get more accountability.
And we sat up there and just watched things come and go all night.
You know, different aircraft.
It was all pretty conventional.
We watched the Jeeps come out to the edge of the fence, and every time we got a little too loud, it was obvious They knew we were there.
We saw Old Faithful come in about five in the morning.
The interesting thing to me was that the meeting itself at the Little Alien, one of the big things they discussed was the possibility of genetic experiments going on underground at Area 51.
And I'm wondering if Lazar or any of the other people you've run into have alluded to it.
you sort of stay away from these social UFO, I don't want to use the word cults, but I think I want to stay away, separate what is the evidence from what is the interpretation of the evidence.
It's either false evidence or true evidence.
But upon this, people have piled their whole belief systems and piled on their whole baggage that they want to believe, the things that they want to believe.
And I think Bob is right in just sticking with the facts.
But you've got a million different interpretations of those facts that are really muddying the waters more than anything else.
But a cult leader can only work if there are willing followers, and there certainly are plenty of willing followers.
This is something that Area 51 has taught me, that there are people, there are certainly skeptics out there, people who will disbelieve no matter what.
But there's also the true believers who will believe no matter what, and they will believe anything connected with UFOs.
The only number we didn't give you there is the East of the Rockies number, which is 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
My guest is Glenn Campbell.
He'll be back in a moment.
I'm telling you, grab a pencil.
I'm going to give you some important information right now.
As you know, the edition of the newsletter about to be mailed to you has in it the five incredible Roswell photographs by exclusive permission of Ray Santilli.
And those are coming out here shortly on their way to you.
Now, second item.
The Hailbop comet coming in, which I call Bebop.
Big thing out there beyond the orbit of Jupiter.
We have got a photograph of it, and it's a beauty.
Now, the other source, J-Rod, says that he has seen what is up there in that turret in the model that he was working with, and it's a navigation system.
There are little windows along the side of that turret, and it's used to sight on stars or whatever.
I mean, no one is really collecting all the sighting reports nationally because there's just so many of them, and there's so much work to be done in distinguishing the good from the bad.
My personal sense is that, yes, there's a lot of sightings in Nevada, but there's a lot of sightings all over the country.
Yes, I'm a little bit confused on the secrecy aspect of this.
What can you legally view and not get into trouble?
Can you take a hot air balloon up with a telescope and look?
Well, confused.
As I say, there are these mountaintops that are very distant, but technically you can view the base from a legal vantage point by climbing up to the top of an 8,000-foot mountain.
My question to Glenn is What he thinks about Phil Class, some people feel as though he is actually a tool of the government in the fact that he refuses to believe in there is any kind of activity and is very adamant in saying the government is not hiding or covering up anything as far as UFOs.
And on the Larry King show the other night, once again, they brought forth the specter of Mr. Klass, who, Glenn, I would almost, I've had him on the show and we've done debates, I would almost put him in the category of the cult of non-believers.
And I find his newsletter very, very interesting and very amusing.
But Mr. Klass, I don't believe that he is a government agent.
I believe that he is pursuing a viewpoint that he believes in.
And his viewpoint excludes any human testimony.
It's saying that if a human told you that he saw a light in the sky or a human told you he was abducted by aliens, you have to discount it because humans are unreliable.
That is his basic viewpoint.
And it has a certain validity.
You have to understand how this man thinks.
And I think that intellectually you have to deal with his objections.
may have talked about it, but there was a book that came out, The Philadelphia Experiment, and in it they talked about a physicist or a researcher named Brown, and evidently he had developed...
But there's something to do with the electrical field around the graph that somehow manipulates gravity.
Bob Lazar also talks about these gravity amplifiers.
I think that if I were a little bit smarter in this field, I could integrate it together a little bit better.
But it's not something to be completely dismissed, that maybe electricity, there's some aspect of electrical fields that we don't understand that could affect gravity.
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Well, I think the interesting thing about it is that evidently Brown could never get anyone to buy his invention, but supposedly, and energy was a problem, supposedly he went over to the French and he attached some big long, for want of a better term, like an extension cord and plugged in a lot of power to this thing and they actually got it going off the ground and kind of flying around, you know, remotely on this kind of this tether or this umbilical cord.
So I think the thing about Lazar, if I understand, is he says that there's this element from some other planet that produces this tremendous amount of energy and that seems to be the limiting factor.
Indeed, again, true or false, he picked a very good element to get involved here, because this is a gray area where we don't quite know what these elements do because we've never produced them here.
Indeed, but there's an awful lot of energy has to be put into this reaction to get those elements.
When we were talking about element 112, I guess, which might be the latest, you have to produce, you have to dump tons and tons of energy into your cyclotron or whatever you're producing this with to get even a few atoms of this item.
I think you're for excellence because right off the top, you said your job was to gather information and disseminate it so that we could hold them accountable and responsible.
My question is, do you have any knowledge of about eight or ten years ago, on a local show, they had a call from a fellow who had worked in the government and said they were doing some experimentations on cross-breeding of animals and humans?
My dad is very unemotional, and he's not into anything really except for teeth.
You know, he's a dentist.
But I asked him the other day, do you believe in UFOs?
And he said, well, I've seen one.
And I said, what?
And he said, well, when I was nine years old, when he lived in South Africa, he was laying under a tree and he saw a thing in the sky and it was going too fast.
So he knew, you know, they didn't have that back then.
He's 60.
He just turned 60.
And I said, well, what did it look like?
And he said, a cigar.
And it was going real fast.
And so anyways, the other day, about June or about June or so, I saw this round thing.
It was like, well, since I've started listening to your program, I've heard other people say these green fireballs.
I generally tell people, oh, yes, the green fireballs, they are delivering the pods to Earth.
Glenn, hold on.
We'll be right back to you.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
Glenn Campbell, the world's expert, I guess, on Area 51, short of anybody in the military out here in civilian life.
Don't forget if you'd like to order our newsletter, you may do so 24 hours a day.
It is busy.
Please keep trying.
Yes, the comet photo is going to be in there.
Next issue.
The number is 1-800-917-4278.
1-800-917-4278 Mean and arbitrary to cut that lady off earlier who was about to quote scripture, but that is one rule.
I probably allow more discussion of religion than nearly any program on the air, but I do not allow quoting of scripture.
For that, we rely on church and Sunday or whatever day you choose, and that's fine.
But we don't do that here.
And the other rule is no bad language and one call per program.
Observing all those rules will get along fine.
Now, the east of the Rockies line, the only one not given in a little phone number bump there, is 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
If you're East of the Rockies, toll-free.
Now, a quick word about Linda Howe.
You heard Linda Howe much earlier in the program.
If you want to know more about her and what she does, listen carefully.
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If you enjoy Dreamland's weekly news segments by Linda and first-hand eyewitnesses, Linda Moulton Howe's two books, An Alien Harvest and Glimpses of Other Realities, are acclaimed for their quality, depth, photographs, and drawings.
If you are interested in learning more about the mysterious animal mutilations, crop circles, UFO sightings, the human abduction syndrome, and government knowledge about these worldwide phenomena, you will enjoy these books and videos available directly from LMH Productions.
See, back in the early 70s, I used to be a paperboy, and I'd always read the paper, and there was a lot of things in the paper about the UFOs, and then all of a sudden it died.
I was wondering if Mr. Camill knows anything about that.
I just want to say, when one looks at statistically from the amount of stars in the universe, the concept that there is some other form of intelligent life in the planet is to me statistically highly likely.
I don't feel that there's like an impossibility that UFOs exist.
I think that it's quite possible by statistical analysis.
And I think that as far as the technological advancements that are going to be made, I think that they are predominantly made by the military.
They're predominantly discovered by the military, unfortunately, ever since the atomic weapons.
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And the public cannot look forward, will not be able to look forward to total openness on issues of leading-edge technology.
There is an, you know, strictly from a scientific standpoint, there is an evil entity that's at work that has one thing on its mind, and that is the mutual, assured destruction of humans and non-human beings.
George Knapp, a guest here many, many times, once part of a program I did prior to this, an investigative reporter for a CBS affiliate in Las Vegas, and has done a lot of very good work on Area 51.
And John Lear, who is a very good friend of mine, also has done a great deal of work.
Glenn, John has said some things, though, about the aliens that go beyond, I'm sure, where you would be willing to go.
And John actually does connect it and does think it possible they are evil entities, really has moved in that direction in the last few years.
But John has actually come to the point where he firmly believes they're evil, number one, and number two, we'll finally dispense the advice.
Something awful is going to happen.
Just lead your life, love your family, enjoy the time you have left.
Stand by, Glenn.
I'll be right back to you.
He's made statements of that sort on my program.
It's pretty chilling stuff.
And it's particularly chilling because he says it with a certain, very calm kind of resignation that would chill you if you heard it.
And on that note, we'll be right back.
You don't have to put back to Glenn Campbell, and I want to give Glenn toward the end of the show here an opportunity to once again say, Glenn, if they go to the World Wide Web and they do a web search, what keyword would they use to get to your website?
And that certainly could be true, and better communication as well.
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Right.
Um, for the caller that uh called in um uh the last uh brought the attention to a religious aspect of that.
Um uh I think that was uh a feeble attempt to make an intellectual uh argument, and uh I think anybody that doesn't believe that there's other intelligent life in the universe is maybe uh very non-intellectual and um egotistical.
I think that if you have any field, especially UFOs where you have no solid base of agreement to begin with, no one can agree what UFOs are, never mind on what we should be doing about them.
What you see is humans doing what they do best, which is arguing with each other.
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And I think this is inevitable, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that.