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Aug. 6, 1995 - Art Bell

01:53:17

Dreamland with Art Bell - Comet Hale-Bopp Discovered - Tales from Area 51 - Glenn Campbell

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	Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
	not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
	And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
	This is Dreamland.
	From the high desert, it's Sunday and another Dreamland.
	Good evening everybody, I'm Art Bell.
	Let me give you a little bit of a sort of a thumbnail sketch of what's about to happen this evening.
	And it's quite a bit.
	First, we'll go to Philadelphia.
	Our regular update from that person known to be the world's expert, the world's leading authority on animal mutilations and crop circles, Linda Howell.
	Then, a change of pace on Dreamland.
	Glenn Campbell is going to sing about the Rocky Mountains.
	No, just kidding.
	Not that Glen Campbell.
	This is the Area 51 Glen Campbell.
	That may or may not mean anything to many of you, but he is a man who has spent, well, we'll find out how long, long time up at Area 51, uh, watching the goings-ons.
	The goings-ons.
	The goings-on.
	Perhaps plural.
	And, uh, we'll talk to Glenn Campbell.
	So, uh, that is what's coming up on Dreamland, beginning just about now.
	Now, to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, all the way out, and Linda Howe.
	Linda, good evening.
	Hi, Art.
	Hi.
	This week, I have been receiving calls like you about the discovery of that surprisingly bright object on the other side of Jupiter.
	Yes, um, what is it, uh, Hale-Bopp, I believe they call it.
	Hale-Bopp!
	And you also faxed me the July 30th London Telegraph article in which science correspondent Robert Matthews wrote, quote, What fascinates astronomers and worries some is that this object is still far beyond the orbit of Jupiter, yet it can be seen with small telescopes.
	That means the object might be more than a thousand miles across,
	a hundred times bigger than Halley's Comet, and well able to extinguish all life if it hit the Earth.
	That was a quote, and then it also noted that Dr. Marston, Brian Marston at Harvard, who has been an expert in comets
	there, said, quote, it is unheard of for a comet to be visible in
	small telescopes far, so far away.
	It could become the comet of the millennium as it comes in toward the sun over the next year or two, unquote.
	Well, that was the London Telegraph, and I checked with Sky and Telescope, a very respected forum, uh, both for astronomers and amateur astronomers, and it reported that this, uh, is the first time That two amateur astronomers have ever been able with the 16-inch reflector telescope that they were using.
	To pick up something that is at 11 magnitude glow, and because they took so many positional observations and calculations, that they were able to determine that this is now 7 astronomical units from the Sun, which is really way out there beyond Jupiter, and further away than any comet discovered by amateurs before.
	The fact that it could be seen at all, as the London Telegraph pointed out, suggested, in terms of Sky and Telescopes Forum, that this may be some kind of an object, a comet or other, that is doing outbursts.
	It means that the light is changing.
	It is appearing five to ten times magnitude brighter than normal, and in this past week the light seemed to dim, according to the amateur astronomers.
	And a man in New Mexico who got out his 24-inch reflector and a charged couple device and he says that he has found something in this what's called the spiral coma at the rear of this object that is typical of another comet that had what's called a light outburst that's not very well understood.
	And right now, there is a columnist for the Sky and Telescope who says that when this outburst occurs in a comet, sometimes a second outburst occurs about 30 days later.
	And what they're intrigued by is that this current observation, which is now just about a week and a half old, the comet has a fan-shaped head.
	As of July 31st.
	That is also unusual.
	And Marsden at Harvard has calculated that this particular object, on the track and in the course that it is,
	will reach its closest point in March or April of 1997, just inside the Earth's orbit.
	The magazine says, quote, it will grace the pre-dawn sky for North America observers
	that spring, but how bright it will get is still anybody's guess,
	unquote.
	It could become the astronomical sensation at the end of this decade, or it might go careening off depending upon the Jupiter influence and the big unanswered question that you and I discussed, Art.
	Is if it's picked up at that distance now by 16-inch telescopes.
	Is this something that means that this object is huge, the 1,000 miles in diameter, or is there something strange going on with light fluctuations that are not understood?
	Either way, it's a big story, Linda, and, um, you know, I'm out during the week on now 200 affiliates.
	Wow!
	And, um, well, yeah, we just picked up- Congratulations!
	Oh, thank you.
	The last one we picked up beginning tomorrow night is KMVC Los Angeles.
	Anyway, what I wanted to say is, a lot of local hosts have been saying, you know, Art Bell's been talking about this, but there must be nothing to it.
	It must be baloney, or else the national press would have picked it up.
	Well, it's not baloney, is it?
	No, not at all.
	And the fact that Sky and Telescope is writing this kind of a story, getting it out on the internet, there'll probably be a big article upcoming.
	This is an object, Art, to be watched seriously.
	Seriously, we went through all of those pieces of comet that broke or meteorite or whatever it was or asteroid that broke into Jupiter.
	This is another one of those stories that will be watched now from now until the spring of 97.
	And you and I will have to keep updating this and doing reports on Dreamland.
	And one thing I think I would like to do after I get back from England is probably check in with Brian Marsden at Harvard and do an interview with him.
	Good.
	Oh, what a great idea.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, and the London Telegraph also reported last week that thousands of people from Scotland to Southern England witnessed a brilliant fireball believed to be part of a comet or asteroid or something burning up in the Earth's atmosphere.
	One eyewitness at South Shields England reported, quote, it was like a huge floodlight lighting everything and this was seen by people in several pieces of the British Isles.
	Well it reminds me too of today I talked with Nancy Talbot in Massachusetts who has been getting a lot of coordinator reports from England concerning the crop circles and she says that people have been reporting green lights, orange lights, white lights, All kinds of moving lights this summer over fields either where formations have formed or over fields in which the next field over formations form and there have been so many of these eyewitness sightings that people are associating the lights with an area where something forms.
	And I leave for England tomorrow, and even though Harvest is partly underway, if there is a fresh formation to report about next Sunday, I will have the latest news wherever it is from wherever I am in England.
	I take it you're also going to be chasing after the whole Santilli thing?
	Absolutely.
	And in just a few minutes I'm going to have a very interesting piece relating to this whole issue of what a non-human being might look like.
	But I wanted to bring you all up to date on a new formation here in the United States.
	Last Sunday in the Press Democrat newspaper of Santa Rosa, California, the front page carried a color photograph of an odd symbol in a horse pasture and the headline, quote, Triangular Mystery on Santa Rosa Hill, unquote.
	I called and talked to the owners of the pasture, who do not want to talk publicly yet, but they confirmed a very surprising fact.
	The 150 foot long formation of an equilateral triangle with a circle at each corner that's very reminiscent of one of England's most famous formations at Barbary Castle in 1991.
	This formation in California actually emerged on Easter weekend in April.
	And yet, no one reported anything until this newspaper report last Sunday, four months later.
	A relative who lives on this horse ranch said that he was awakened by a very bright flash of light the night before he and his family discovered the triangle and circles on the hillside.
	The wife of the owner of this horse pasture told me that the family discussed it and they decided they would do nothing.
	They would not erase it.
	They wouldn't report it.
	They just left it alone.
	Now, the grass is dry, but the triangle and the three circles are a very clear, dark outline in this still dry pasture grass, even now.
	And I have color photographs that two different sets of investigators in California took and sent to me this week, and everybody is remarking, including the owners, about how clear this equilateral triangle and circles are, and everyone makes the same comment.
	The hill is so steep, The grass rises up a steep hill and yet this is a perfect triangle and perfect circle and one person said if someone hoaxed it how could they do that on a hillside that is as steep as that one?
	rolling rollers and keeping them under control, making perfect triangles and circles would be difficult.
	And no one, anywhere, has claimed any knowledge about this or having made it.
	So there is a distinct mystery in the Santa Rosa area of California.
	While comments are coming toward us and mysterious formations appear in cereal crops,
	and everyone is arguing about whether or not the humanoid bodies in the now controversial Roswell autopsy film
	are real or human genetic anomalies, I continue to get mail, faxes, and phone calls from people all over the country
	who report totally conscious encounters with non-human beings.
	One man in Florida even described several types that are different which we might be Comparing, or at least worth considering comparing, to the Santelli autopsy story.
	Okay.
	This man said that I could play this excerpt on Dreamland.
	He's asked to remain anonymous for now, but the details of his experience are so vivid that I think it is worth sharing with our audience and keeping in mind maybe we're hearing firsthand about real human encounters with these beings And this may or may not help us in thinking about this alleged autopsy Santilli film.
	Alright.
	So, here is a man from Florida.
	This is current conscious encounter.
	Yes, 75%, 70% of the encounters that I had that what I saw were that what I was allowed to see were primarily the little, what I call drones or worker type.
	They're about three, three and a half feet tall.
	And they pretty much fit the description of generally what you'll see on television shows or magazines, which is the sort of big teardrop eyes, the pointed faces.
	I call them drones, I call them workers.
	The aliens that I'm familiar with that seem to manage them or run them are in essence about the same size.
	Atrophied looking, skinny looking.
	Body wise.
	They almost look like someone, and I was told that I shouldn't say this, but I can't help it because this is what they look like to me.
	They look like an individual who would be in the latter stages of that terrible disease, AIDS.
	They just look that sickly.
	But yet, I know they're not sick, I know they're strong, but they, their appearance, when you look at them, like, oh, this guy's in the latter stages of terrible malnutrition or AIDS or something like that.
	As far as their faces are concerned or their heads, their heads are slightly bigger than normal.
	Their chins are somewhat pointed.
	Their ears, there's no ears, just like little holes for ears.
	The faces are leather-like or wrinkled.
	The eyes are bigger than normal, but not humongous, but somewhat bigger than normal.
	No eyebrows.
	They look older, like older people or older men like looking.
	They have not much of a mouth and sort of like a nodule, two little hole nodules for a nose.
	At the best I can tell, not five fingers, but I think four, the best that I can tell.
	These are the ones that I feel are like the true alien, geneologically speaking, race.
	And I think ones that are about the same size that do all the work are sort of a creation that they put together where they farm material from us in order to make those.
	What he just said was where they farm us in order to make those, implying that we may be dealing with a sophisticated level of different types of beings, one in charge of others that are worker bees.
	The worker bees may be the ones we're interacting with.
	They may be cloned, genetically created, and they may be created from material harvested on our planet from animals and people.
	And this gets into what Bud Hopkins has reported about the creation of hybrids.
	This is where the animal mutilations may or may not come in.
	And if something is mixing and matching genes and they are harvesting from the earth, I think this is where this story is so important to try to understand because the implications could be huge in our future.
	And one of the interesting things to keep in mind is that in the Roswell, the alleged Roswell autopsy of humanoids that Ray Santilli has.
	The fingers and the toes, as I've seen very clear photographs, are clearly six.
	And not any case that I can recall have abductees described six fingers or six toes.
	It has always been like this man in Florida.
	They either have four long fingers that are slightly claw-like, or three, or some variation on that theme.
	But not six.
	All right, Linda, we're very short on time, so I've got to scoot.
	Give everybody quickly, if you would, contact information.
	All right.
	My post office box in Huntingdon Valley is 538, post office box 538, Huntingdon Valley, PA, zip code 19006.
	I'm for people interested in information about books and videos that I have produced.
	I now have an 800 number to call concerning those.
	It's 800-707-9993.
	Oh, that's excellent.
	That's excellent.
	And we'll get your little spot on later, and that'll tell them all the rest of it.
	All right.
	And all right.
	Thanks.
	Have a good time with your next guest.
	Area 51 is always fascinating.
	And next Sunday from England, who knows what I will have to report.
	No, well, that's going to be looking forward.
	We're going to be looking forward to it.
	Don't forget to calculate the times now.
	Yeah.
	About 4 a.m.
	there.
	All right, Linda.
	Talk to you then.
	Take care.
	Linda Howe, certainly acknowledged by almost everybody that I know of, actually, to be the world's expert on crop circles, animal mutilation, with us next Sunday from England, where there's a lot going on.
	Well, coming up in a moment, Glenn Campbell.
	Right now, North American trading in their easy, that's what I call it, Rio.
	Glenn Campbell, 35 years of age, is the principal local activist, seeking greater government accountability at, guess where?
	Area 51, a secret military base 90 miles north of Las Vegas.
	Formerly a successful computer programmer from Boston, Campbell moved to the remote town of Rachel, Nevada in January of 93 to investigate the many strange stories emanating from the base.
	His carefully researched book, the Area 51 Viewer's Guide, helped bring mainstream attention to a story that's been dominated by UFO and conspiracy buffs with little concern for the facts.
	And indeed, mainstream media has jumped on it.
	You'll recall a recent Larry King Show in which he sat out in the desert with his desk in the desert and had some guests on the subject and his even more recent piece on UFOs.
	So there's lots and lots of mainstream media attention now to Area 51.
	Maybe they've moved elsewhere.
	Who knows?
	But then why annex that land?
	We'll ask.
	Glen Campbell.
	That'll be next on Dreamland.
	You've heard so much.
	I live right next to it.
	I wonder a lot about it.
	In a moment, Glen Campbell and he'll answer the questions.
	One very quick ad for you.
	To actually to Las Vegas, which is where I believe Glenn Campbell is located right now.
	You won't sing for us, will you?
	I will if you want me to.
	No, that's all right.
	How you doing, Glenn?
	I'm doing just great, Art.
	How is it living with that name, by the way?
	Oh, it's difficult, but I've learned to live with it.
	Now, the interesting thing is I'm giving him some help because he has to answer all those UFO questions now.
	Do you think occasionally they say, what about Area 51?
	Yes, I know he's been asked that.
	Uh-huh, no doubt.
	Well, you know where I live, Glenn?
	Up in Pahrump, yeah.
	And we have a somewhat remote, nevertheless pretty good viewers location here in Pahrump for Area 51.
	And what flies up gets higher.
	Enough up over the mountain range.
	We see it here.
	And there are a lot of people with a lot of stories in Pahrump.
	And I'm one of the guys who's got a story.
	And I am going to tell it to you next hour, I think, and get your view.
	But first, let's go back.
	Let's find out how in the world... I mean, you're sort of a desert rat, aren't you?
	I have become one.
	I'm an Easterner by birth.
	I got interested in the UFO phenomenon several years ago and this seemed to be the epicenter of it.
	Like you say, the aliens picked me up and brought me here.
	But it was probably a conventional aircraft.
	Well, it was probably a continental aircraft.
	Yeah, there you go.
	So you actually, what did you do?
	Did you take up residence at Area 51 or near it?
	How'd you live up there?
	As close as I can get.
	The small town of Rachel, Nevada is just north of Area 51, about 20 miles north of it.
	It's as close as a civilian can get.
	Right.
	This is a small town of mobile homes and I lived there for over two years before coming back here to Vegas.
	So what did you do?
	You just went out there and bought a mobile home and settled in for the watch?
	I rented a mobile home and I settled in to pursue the mystery as I thought it should be pursued.
	I did not spend all of my time looking in the sky for things in the sky because, quite frankly, I think that's not the most productive way to approach this.
	The question is, if you see a light in the sky and it's maybe not earthly, where do you go with that information and how do you pursue it further?
	It's kind of a dead end.
	Yes.
	is write it down and perhaps report it to others.
	I agree.
	The avenue that I approach is that if any of this is happening, the government certainly knows more than we do.
	The Air Force, for example, must have the cameras and the tracking ability to keep track of whatever is going through our atmosphere.
	But I take it, no matter how hard you knocked on their door up there, I mean, nobody came out in uniform and said, well, we, the government, are now ready to meet with you, Glenn Campbell.
	And we'll tell you what we know.
	That never happened.
	That never happened.
	They ignored me totally.
	But there's a lot of data.
	As a former computer programmer, I'm concerned with data.
	And what sort of data you can pull out of an area.
	So then what was the idea?
	To talk to the locals?
	No, it was first of all to come here, to be here.
	And then to see what sort of avenues open themselves up.
	And indeed, avenues did come.
	You have a base there that officially does not exist.
	The question is, how do you crack this base?
	How do you find out more about it?
	And the tools that I use are simply, first of all, to collect the open information that's there already.
	There are a lot of misconceptions when people come here as to what the basic geography of the area is, and what is at Area 51, what is at Groom Base, and what do we know about And simply to collect that and distribute that information pushes the movement ahead.
	It creates a base of general information that everyone else can build upon.
	Well, I take it when you moved into your trailer and you began to establish, you know, some sort of relationship with the locals, you would talk to people.
	Do they talk about it much up there or are they very closed-mouthed about it?
	Well, the locals there in Rachel, the vast majority don't have any connection to the base.
	This town is only 20 miles from the base, but as far as...
	They're concerned this could be a million miles away.
	It's like a small town anywhere.
	People are concerned with their local affairs.
	And it's only when the outsiders came, people from Las Vegas, came with a UFO interest that anybody down there noticed anything.
	I think that most of the interest is coming from Las Vegas.
	Most of the workers to this base come from Las Vegas.
	What you get up there is simply having access at that time to a hill where you could see the base.
	Right, but occasionally, I think, you will admit, things would pop over the hill, and so the locals in Rachel must have been treated to occasional shows of this and that, and there must be a lot of local stories.
	Unfortunately, no.
	The majority of the stories that I hear come from, frankly, from outsiders who are looking to the sky.
	Figure if you are living in a small town, You go about your daily business, you go to sleep at night, you keep your eyes down and you don't notice things.
	Well, that's true.
	The local people there have lots of stories of F-117s, the stealth fighter flying over before this was made public, and the B-2 flying over.
	This community, I see, is no different from any other rural community.
	You have believers, you have disbelievers.
	The real stories are not coming from there.
	The more interesting stories are coming from people who claim to have worked there or worked in some capacity in this restricted zone.
	Let's go back to Bob Lazar.
	You've had plenty of opportunity to review his story.
	How do you feel about it?
	He is a fascinating case and he remains, although I know him, I don't know him well, He remains an enigma.
	All right, a lot of people in the audience are saying, I have no idea who Bob Lazar is.
	So who is he?
	Well, the whole source, perhaps, of most of this Area 51 interest came from Bob Lazar, a Las Vegas resident who came forward in 1989 on a local Las Vegas television station to claim that he had worked with alien craft at a site just south of Area 51 at Papoose Lake.
	This is a very detailed story, a very coherent story, that was just limited to this hardware that he claims to have worked with.
	He says he worked with disks.
	And he can explain in great detail how these disks operate.
	Although he does not know where they came from, he feels certain that these are extraterrestrial disks that the government has somehow acquired.
	This was the spark that set off the interest in Area 51 and sent everybody up to Rachel to look for flying saucers themselves.
	Right.
	And the odd thing is they saw them.
	It seems that everyone who goes out there to see UFOs, expecting to see UFOs, does indeed see them.
	But what I have seen in my time there are a lot of exotic lights, the lights that I've eventually learned to explain as military aircraft, military activity.
	Now, how do you, by your own admission, strange lights, how do you then classify them military?
	Excuse me?
	How, in other words, I guess I'm asking, others might say they went up there and saw something that was a UFO.
	You're saying you've classified them as military.
	How have you done that?
	Well, the most common, there are several common UFOs, what people interpret as UFOs.
	Now, there are certainly UFOs, things that I cannot explain, but the things that I can explain are magnesium flares.
	These are extremely bright orange balls that hang in the sky for Five or ten minutes at a time, and then go out.
	And people report them as possibly jumping around at very small jumps.
	But in reality, these are connected with the bombing exercises and ground exercises on the Nellis Range.
	Alright, that makes sense.
	What people don't understand is that although Area 51, this small block of land, is strictly off-limits even to military pilots, The land all surrounding Area 51, and this is as big as the state of Connecticut, is a major war games exercise area.
	Every fighter pilot in the free world will come here at some point to test his skills in realistic combat.
	And that's actually how it got its name, Dreamland, isn't it?
	In other words, they've got the newest, the latest, the best, the pilot's dream up there.
	And isn't that how it got the name, Dreamland?
	No, I can't say that.
	Dreamland, like all these names, has a very nebulous source.
	What we call Dreamland has a very specific meaning, however.
	Dreamland is a block of airspace.
	And pilots, you can hear pilots on aircraft frequencies refer to this as dreamland.
	This is restricted airspace.
	If you are on exercise here, during these war games, even as a military pilot, if you were to stray into dreamland, that could cost you your career.
	If not life, an airplane.
	Well, the military is not going to shoot down their own airplane.
	No, indeed not.
	But what about civilian aircraft, particularly light aircraft that might overfly the area?
	There are a lot of stories in the past of Aircraft straying into the zone and landing and what they are met with.
	They're not shot down, but they are certainly met with a debriefing party.
	It is equivalent of flying over the White House unauthorized.
	This is restricted airspace.
	Pilots know that if they do anything like that, that they will lose their license.
	They will be heavily fined.
	There's no real record of anybody being shot down, but it's certainly a possibility.
	Um, some of the better photographs that we have of Area 51 unfortunately seem to have come from the Russians.
	Now, I've seen them.
	They circulate on the internet and elsewhere.
	And they're pretty good Landsat-type photos, or better, um, of the hangars and the whole arrangement up there that does not exist.
	Indeed, this is the main issue here.
	I think no matter what your attitude toward UFOs may be, the question is, Should the government have a base that doesn't exist, that the Russians can see, but they cannot be acknowledged to the American people?
	This is a very serious accountability issue, and one of the major issues that I am pursuing.
	I think that... I came here interested in the UFO phenomena, but what I came to see that the real issue is, are these human issues of government accountability, And human philosophy that really we have to get over before we can get to the UFO problem.
	Alright, well let's consider something and its probability.
	Glenn, the F-117 was developed at least in part or the majority of it up in that area, correct?
	It was test flown here and assembled here, yes.
	Right.
	It's now been, the F-117 wing is gone I think to New Mexico or some place or another.
	And is it not fair to imagine, or project, that if the F-117 is now an operational aircraft, a very black project, but it's now operational, I mean it's out there, it's like off the production line and flying, then with the annexation of additional lands around there, that means the base is definitely still active.
	So they must be a generation, or maybe two or more, Ahead of the F-117.
	We can only imagine what that might be.
	It's very hard to speculate along those lines.
	We don't have any baseline information on what, for example, the traffic of workers was during this F-117 program.
	So it's hard to say now whether there are more workers going in there now or less.
	Right now I live in Las Vegas overlooking a terminal where all of the workers fly into Groom Lake.
	And we see between 700 and 800 people per day flying in and out.
	Well, gee, now they're working on something.
	Indeed, they are.
	But whether this is one big project, say another stealth aircraft or a hypersonic aircraft, or whether it's a lot of little projects, we just don't have that information.
	Yeah, but whatever it is, it's got to be at least a generation past the F-117.
	Isn't that logical?
	It is logical, but a generation, for example, in aviation terms, might not be too exciting to you and I. In other words, at Area 51, it is proper, the actual base, the actual area that we know as Area 51, is probably restricted to conventional weapons development.
	If we're going to talk about flying saucers, we're probably talking somewhere Behind Area 51.
	These are in the restricted zone.
	All right.
	Bob Lazar, the physicist you talked about, specified there was an area south of Area 51 called, I think it was S4, wasn't it?
	That is correct.
	And it's a very good place to put a secret saucer base, whether you're fictionalizing one or creating a real one.
	Because this is a place where you simply cannot go, where you simply cannot see.
	You look at satellite images, for example the Russian satellite image, and you see nothing there.
	But Bob Lazar describes something that's built into the hillside where you wouldn't see anything.
	I've talked to former workers who don't laugh off the Bob Lazar story because when they were there, although they were compartmentalized, they knew that there was some project going on across the hill.
	Over in this area, and this area was referred to as F4.
	That's it.
	Well, as you know, a lot of people who work there live in the Pahrump area, and commute as well.
	Now, there are a lot of people who, over coffee or in a private moment, will sort of give you a wink and a nod, and maybe a little more, indicating that they know damn well something was going on up there and is going on up there, but they won't talk about it.
	Right.
	Not really.
	And there are a few exceptions, however.
	From time to time, I will run into someone who tells me more than just a wink and a nod.
	And, of course, I have only their word to take for it, but there is a coherent story.
	All right, we will explore that option with Glenn Campbell in just a moment.
	That is to say, those who have given him more than a wink and a nod, which is all I managed to get here in Pahrump.
	We'll be right back.
	You don't have to put up with the press for time.
	Glenn, we're back.
	What have you been told that's more than a wink and a nod?
	Well, the question is from the Bob Lazar story, where did those crafts come from?
	And I put together from various sources a folklore, a story that says that we have been in contact with aliens since the 1950s.
	And perhaps in the next hour I can talk some more about that.
	Well, do you...
	You use the word folklore.
	Ah, now this is where I differ from many other researchers.
	Okay.
	I try to collect the whole story as one unit, and I don't go off and try to check each individual detail.
	I look for the coherence of the story.
	And this is a different approach.
	This is saying that I want to spend a lot of time with a lot of people, learn what the story is that they're telling me, and eventually connections will come together that will either prove it true or false.
	That's why I don't say this is 100% truth.
	I say this is a mystery that's worthy of exploration.
	If I were to, you know, throw you up against the wall and say, look, you've been studying this area longer than anybody else and closer.
	Do you believe there are these kinds of craft up there or not?
	What would you, how would you?
	If you threw me against the wall, I'd throw you back and say, I neither believe nor disbelieve.
	I am pursuing a mystery and until the, Like someone is pursuing a crime, and I think that it's wrong to make a decision until you've collected all the evidence.
	Well, that's certainly true, but people are all the time convicted on circumstantial evidence.
	In other words, let me try this approach.
	Is the weight of the evidence on the side of all this going on, or a lot of it going on, or does it weight the other way?
	It weights to the point where I'm willing to spend my time on pursuing it.
	All the other things in the world I could be doing, I want to be here pursuing UFOs.
	And that's as far as I need to go to decide what to do.
	The question is, how do I pursue it?
	How do I... Well, yeah, but are you pursuing it on the basis of simply trying to come up with the answer of whether they're extraterrestrial?
	Or have you now gone past that and think they are not, and nevertheless want to continue to pursue the story to just know what's going on up there?
	If I had to say it, I'd say that they're real and that they have been in contact with the government for some time.
	They are not of any great threat and I don't think they're going to change humanity all that much.
	Well, that is a clear answer, and I appreciate it.
	Glenn Campbell, and he is the author, by the way, of the Area 51 Viewer's Guide.
	Isn't that a neat title, the Area 51 Viewer's Guide?
	And we'll talk a little bit about that, and how and whether you can even still view anything up there, and whether there's anything to view.
	We'll be right back.
	♪♪♪ I wanted to hear it.
	Um, and I've been swearing I wouldn't keep telling this story, but it's unavoidable.
	I've got the, probably the world's expert here on what's out at Area 51 or what is not.
	Uh, coming home one night, uh, late at night, about two years ago now, um, my wife, uh, it was dark.
	Uh, there was about three quarters of a moon and we were about a mile away from our house.
	So I won't identify specifically where it was, but Here in the Bromley and my wife turned around and said, what the hell's that?
	She said, what's that?
	Stop the car.
	And so I stopped the car.
	And, um, got out of the car and looked up and here coming from behind us.
	And I'm, uh, to give you the setting.
	It was a quiet night.
	You could hear crickets going at a quarter mile away easily.
	I mean, dead, flat, quiet as it is out here.
	And coming up from behind us.
	From roughly a, uh, let's see, it would have been a, uh, east-southeast direction, um, was this triangular craft about 150 feet in the air above us.
	There was enough light with, you know, three-quarter moon or better, so you could see the substance of this craft.
	That's how close it was.
	No more than 150 feet above.
	And approaching our automobile quickly, it was toward the, let's see, it would have been west, southwest direction.
	Well, let's see, west and then west-northwest, I'm sorry.
	And so we just stood there and it flew above us.
	It just, no, not flew, excuse me, floated.
	It didn't make a sound.
	I would estimate 150 feet, at least, from one edge of the triangle to the next.
	There was a flashing red light in the front, and two white solid lights on the back edge of each triangle point.
	It was awesome!
	I was in the Air Force.
	I know what an aircraft is, and I know what aerodynamic flight is, and I know what it takes to power an aircraft.
	This thing floated at a very slow speed, directly above our heads.
	And we stood there and the both of us watched it float directly across the valley until finally it was out of sight.
	It was a remarkable story and it was a couple of weeks later somebody sent me a newspaper clipping from my very own paper here in Pahrump saying the Air Force had had many inquiries and yes they admitted there was a secret mission involving a C-130.
	That flew low over the Pahrump Valley.
	And that was the totality of the explanation from Nellis Air Force Base.
	Now, that's an insult.
	I flew C-130s.
	It would have rattled my bones at that distance.
	There's no question about what I saw.
	I saw it, my wife saw it, I put her on the air, made her go on the air and back me up.
	Well, this last week I talked to two other individuals refusing to go on the air, both who live here in Pahrump.
	Who confirmed that night they also saw it.
	But I'm telling you, that's what I saw.
	Glenn, are you there?
	I'm here.
	Okay, that's what I saw.
	There was no mistaking it.
	It was not a light in the sky.
	It was a lot more than that.
	It was close to me.
	Either it's technology that we don't even have a hint about, or it's something from someplace else.
	I wouldn't know either way.
	But have you heard reports of that?
	I'm in the same position that you are.
	I just don't know.
	Now, the point that I would focus in on is not the object itself, but the reaction from the Air Force.
	Now, if the Air Force is telling you what essentially sounds like a cover story, that certainly implies an Air Force involvement.
	Correct.
	And that's the sort of thing you can track down much more easily than you can track down the object itself.
	If you're out in the desert and you see something unusual, what can you do?
	But if there's a human link to it, That's the sort of thing you can explore.
	Well, I've never seen any UFOs before.
	Oh, I've seen lights, I guess most of us have.
	But, Glenn, this was close.
	It was very close.
	There was no mistaking then nor now what I saw, as I described to you.
	Close enough so that, you know, you could see the actual substance of the craft.
	And it was just a dead triangle.
	It couldn't have been an F-117 or anything like that.
	And it was gigantic.
	Doggone it, I saw it.
	I've never seen any other and I don't know if I would like to see one again.
	But I certainly changed you.
	I can sense this.
	Yeah, I did.
	It did change me.
	It did.
	Because I now know we're either generations ahead of where we say we are right now or we're being visited.
	One of the two is true.
	And the whole thing that really fascinates me and how I differ from others is that I'm not looking at the object in the sky.
	I am more interested in you and your reaction and how humanity reacts to this whole phenomenon.
	Because I think this is key to whether and how the truth comes out is how we are willing to respond to it.
	Whether humanity has the maturity to respond to it and absorb it into our world view.
	My guess is no.
	No?
	Yeah.
	Well, we've absorbed bigger things, I think, like world wars are certainly upsetting to humanity.
	Yes, but they're not upsetting to religious belief.
	Well, I guess my analogy would be to an island kingdom that has had no contact with white people or with outside culture.
	And this culture, this new explorer's land on the on the shore of this island. It may be a traumatic
	experience, but the islanders do adjust, provided they're not overwhelmed by the invaders. Nothing I
	see indicates that the aliens are evil in any way or are out to take us over. They are.
	Obviously, if they had that intention, they would have done that long ago.
	They would have blown us out of the solar system.
	Let's center back on Area 51.
	In your Area 51 viewer's guide, right on, I don't know, page 1 or page 2, page 1, I think, it says, Warning!
	Freedom Ridge and White Sides are now closed.
	And you warn people, you go up into these areas and you're going to get arrested.
	Is that right?
	It's a great danger, because the border is very, very poorly marked.
	These, by the way, are the hills that people used to climb up to look down on the secret base.
	What you saw in the distance looked like an average Air Force base.
	It's not much different from looking down on Nellis Air Force Base.
	Well, except that it's not supposed to be there.
	It doesn't exist.
	So you're not allowed to go to this particular viewing point anymore, and if you do, what happens?
	Oh, you'd be arrested.
	I don't think you'd be shot, but you'd certainly get the full treatment.
	They would not be kind.
	And it results generally in a $600 fine.
	$600?
	Well, you can afford it, perhaps.
	We can just give it a try.
	Well, I take it that during the time it was legal for you to do so, you have.
	Well, I've certainly been up there a hundred times, perhaps.
	A hundred times?
	And never seen anything, aside from some MiG aircraft, which perhaps I wasn't supposed to see.
	MiG aircraft?
	Among other things, Area 51 has been where we keep our Russian arsenal, the aircraft that we have purloined in various ways from the Soviets.
	Our Red Hat squadron, it's called.
	No, I didn't know that.
	Oh, yes.
	Well, there are a lot of different Earthly projects going on at Area 51, enough to account for the number of people who go out there.
	The MiG, MiG, certainly UAVs, this is Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, designed for reconnaissance.
	They have been tested there.
	Very small weaponry might be tested there, and certainly stealth aircraft like the B-2 continue to return there for various forms of radar testing.
	Um, there is another... I'm trying to give them the practical now.
	There is a place you can go, uh, for those who don't feel they can afford, uh, the $600, called Thickaboo Peak.
	Is that correct?
	There remains, uh, a number of distant mountains.
	That you can climb to, again, see the base, but from a much greater distance.
	This would be 25 miles.
	Uh-huh.
	Which, across the desert, you can still see the base, but you're going to need a pretty good telescope to see very much.
	The Pikaboo Peak, for example, is an 8,000-foot peak.
	It's a strenuous two-hour hike to get to it.
	You can't get there in the winter when it's snowed in.
	But if you're willing to take this hike, you can see the base.
	And it might be a better viewpoint in some ways than the Freedom Ridge viewpoint, because whenever anyone was in Freedom Ridge, the guards would report right back that someone's there, and as they say, watchdog goes into effect, meaning that they will call off secret aircraft and suppress operations while you're there.
	So they've annexed that now, correct?
	In other words, you can no longer go up there, and one can only wonder if operations, really secret stuff, or even the saucers, have been transferred elsewhere.
	Then why are they doing that?
	You can certainly speculate endlessly about where the saucers have been transferred, if they have been.
	Again, Area 51, the base itself, the physical hangars, That you see in these photos, this has always been exclusively a conventional base.
	Bob Lazar says that.
	He says there is nothing at Area 51.
	He saw his stuff south of Area 51.
	Now, as for whether the stuff is removed, sure, you can move something secret at any time.
	But you can't wipe out a history of a place.
	You can't wipe out all traces of it.
	And this is the sort of thing that will continue to stay in the minds of workers, for example.
	There'll continue to be paperwork involved in it.
	And that's the sort of thing that I'm trying to track down.
	Alright, for the less adventuresome, I doubt I'd hike up for a couple hours.
	There is the black mailbox.
	And where is that?
	On what road?
	And if people wanted to find it, go to the infamous black mailbox.
	You might tell them about that.
	I call it a sacred site, a religious site.
	There is a mailbox, a rancher's mailbox, on this lonely Highway 375.
	Because this is the only landmark on a very long stretch of empty highway, this is where the UFO believers gather to look for UFOs.
	I personally try to stay away from that because it's become such a social center, and I believe that the government is at all wise with not put on a display for people who just happen to show up.
	But this is the place where the true believers go to look for UFOs, and as I say, when they're looking for them, they see them.
	Because there's a lot of light in the sky that could be ambiguous.
	When is a good time to go?
	I'm sure you get that question all the time.
	Again and again I come right back to the fact I think that the moment that Bob Lazar came forward with his story saying that The UFOs are real.
	I think they would have changed their operations in such a way that they're not going to put them on display for tourists.
	So I think that no time is a good time.
	It's a fascinating area.
	It's a great place to gaze at the stars because you have no light pollution up there and you can see things for a hundred miles that you just can't see in the big city.
	But I don't think you should go there expecting to see UFOs.
	What kind of security people?
	I mean, if you violated this, went up to Freedom Ridge, had a camera with you, and so forth, and they closed in on you, are these plain-clothes people who meet you, sort of security service, or what can you tell us about that?
	These are camouflage-clad security guys with no name tags, no insignia.
	Really?
	The best information is that they work for a government contractor, EG&G.
	but they won't will not identify themselves they will not identify who they work for
	who they work for and if you try to approach them they'll certainly run away it's a very
	curious phenomenon however if you stick your big toe across that line you're suddenly going to
	find a whole lot of them surrounding you and they will they will not be gentle generally this means
	face down in the dirt and uh yes you You're probably there for an hour or so until they call the local sheriff, who eventually hauls you off and charges you.
	All right.
	I'm a scanner nut.
	I love scanners.
	And I've got the BC-2500 XLT unit in Bearcat.
	It has the advantage of, you know, covering lots of military frequencies.
	And I notice it in your book.
	You list The military frequencies up in that area, even one called Dreamland Control, are those accurate frequencies?
	They are probably not accurate as printed in the book because they were changed recently.
	Whenever the frequencies get published, of course they change.
	But many of these frequencies are in the clear.
	You can pick up the Groom Lake Tower, for example, or Do you know what the new one is?
	It's true.
	I'm going to have to get you at a quiet moment.
	Hold on just one moment.
	I'm not, well there's some that I simply don't talk about because the moment I say them on
	the air they're not going to be valid anymore.
	It's true, I'm going to have to get you at a quiet moment.
	Hold on just one moment.
	We're talking with, and soon you'll be able to, Glenn Campbell, who is probably the world's
	expert on Area 51.
	He'll be back in a moment.
	North American Trading has done a very... What's in the unit of their cap?
	XLT 2500.
	2500 XLT.
	You might check with Bob Crane and see if he's got any of those in stock.
	Like some UHF or VHF antennas.
	And it says Area 51 Research Center.
	Now, I'm guessing, but if somebody came by Rachel, And they're interested in this sort of thing.
	I'll bet you've had 10 million knocks on that door, haven't you?
	An awful lot.
	A lot of fascinating people.
	I'm not there most of the time.
	However, at the present, I'm living most of the time in Vegas.
	But this has resulted in an awful lot of contacts just being known for this.
	And my job is to pull together this information and make it available to others.
	And so you do take time out and talk to people who stop by and see you?
	I consider myself sort of a network, a networker.
	And my job is simply to connect people together and pull information together from various people.
	And I certainly talk to people as much as I can.
	So even though you weren't, while you were living there, getting direct sightings, you just thought you were in the right place to be gathering information about it.
	It was the center of the universe.
	The center of the universe.
	Where do you go from here, Glenn?
	In other words, in continuing trying to research this, what's next?
	My job, as I see it, is to build a base of information.
	I do this principally on the Internet, building up my section on the World Wide Web.
	So that any information that I have that comes into me becomes available to anyone else who wants it.
	Boy, it is a wonderful resource, isn't it?
	It is!
	Alright, well, what I'm going to do is, when we get back, I'll let you give out your web address, if you would like, and we'll also tell people how to get, and there's a lot of good information in the Area 51 Viewer's Guide.
	It tells you how to get there, what to watch out for, what to be careful of, what you might see, where you might best see it, how to avoid getting arrested, All kinds of cool things about Area 51.
	That is the topic.
	Glenn Campbell, my guest.
	You're listening to Dreamland.
	Alright, listen carefully to the numbers.
	We're about to open the phone lines.
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	To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
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	Bad guys.
	They enter your body through the air, the water.
	Now to Glenn Campbell.
	A fax from Dick in Honolulu, Glenn.
	Great show.
	Please tell Glenn thanks for his great Desert Rat online newsletter.
	It is very well written and it's entertaining.
	Please ask Glenn to tell us more about Jared, the alleged worker, like Bob Lazar, who tells of working on the UFO simulator.
	Just before we do that, give out your web address for the internet junkies out there and tell them how to get your Area 51 viewer's guide.
	Okay, the web address is...
	I will give out this long address, but if anyone doesn't write it down, you can usually find my page simply by looking for any UFO page and jumping through it to find mine.
	Rather than giving the actual address, I think that's a better way to go.
	Give us a keyword when you get to the web search.
	Well, certainly you can search for UFOs.
	That will bring you to a major UFO page, and from there, there are links to my page.
	It's the wonder of the World Wide Web.
	You don't have to remember these addresses.
	Somewhere in your web address is Glen Campbell, or, um, what?
	You will find the, uh, well, the web address, um, probably the key to search for would be Desert Rats.
	There you go.
	There you are.
	It will find me.
	Alright, Desert Rats.
	And from there, you will find all sorts of fascinating information about Area 51, including back issues of the newsletter, all available for free.
	God, it's such a wonderful... Really?
	Available for free?
	That's the way the web works.
	Information was meant to be free.
	Area 51 Viewer's Guide, that is not free.
	You published that, correct?
	No, that is a self-published book.
	It is available for $15.
	Uh, from the Area 51 Research Center in Rachel, Nevada, 89001.
	You don't even need a street address because, uh, the postman knows me.
	And you'll have to impose $4 additional for, uh, priority mail or air mail to Canada, so that's $19 total.
	If you want it priority or airmail?
	No, that's the only way we send it out.
	Okay, so the total then is $19?
	$19 plus a dollar tax if you're in Nevada.
	How would you sum up the Area 51 Viewer's Guide?
	Kind of the way I did, so it leads you around all the pitfalls?
	It is basically a base of information.
	This is recording basically the first year of my My stay in Rachel, basically I collected geographical information.
	I collected references, all the printed references that I could find to the area and those all went into the book.
	It's a bit paradoxical in fact because I'm not saying that you're going to find UFOs there.
	I say this is an interesting place to visit just for its own sake.
	It's an interesting desert locale and for historical reasons.
	But the viewer's guide is a little bit more than that.
	It is a base of information that may get you started in your own research at Area 51.
	That's good.
	All right, I'm going to ask you a question that you really don't have to answer, but I am curious, and then we'll get on to this other question.
	You've had all these people knock on your door during the time that you were up there a lot and in contact with you.
	What percentage of the people that you've connected with would you consider to be Missing a couple of cards from the deck.
	Well, there's a whole spectrum there.
	There are some, I have been visited by a number of aliens, space aliens in fact, that will tell me that they come from all different star systems, from Draconis, from the Pleiades, from various planets here on in our solar system.
	And my inclination is to say they've got a screw loose, but I stop short of that.
	I say that really how I evaluate a person is on their human skills and most of these aliens don't have those human skills.
	But there's a great spectrum.
	There's very reliable people who I can tell after talking with shortly that what they're saying has great credibility.
	There's the rest of the majority of people, for example, who report things to me.
	I have to take with a grain of salt because I don't know them.
	I don't understand their mental processes.
	This is something you have to get involved with as a UFO researcher.
	You have to understand the people that you are talking to and how their perception works.
	Well, that was very diplomatic.
	Would you say 50-50?
	As I say, well, let's say there's 2% who are real loons.
	Oh, okay.
	And 2% who are extremely reliable, who talk with extreme precision, and everyone else fits into sort of a gray area.
	Good information can come from anywhere in the spectrum.
	You just have to be willing to filter out whatever noise that this person is producing internally.
	All right.
	Now, Jared, whoever Jared is... That's pronounced J-Rod.
	J-Rod.
	I'm sorry.
	This is a former government worker who I've reported on in my Desert Rat newsletter.
	He is 70 years old.
	He claims to have worked in essentially the same type of program, another aspect of the same program that Lazar was supposedly involved with.
	Now this is really important.
	I had never heard this and this is cooperation then for Lazar.
	How well do their stories mesh?
	They don't mesh exactly but they mesh well enough to say, well if this is real then they They reflect upon each other.
	But like all these stories I stopped short of saying it's completely real.
	I'm at the stage of I'm investigating something.
	I want to collect the facts.
	I want to see how the facts mesh together before I make a judgment.
	And I think that if you collect and organize the data right, The solution will show itself.
	You don't have to make a decision.
	You don't have to force your, force a belief upon it.
	Anyway, I can tell you a little bit about this man's story.
	He claims to have worked with, uh, to have designed certain components of a simulator, which, which a flight simulator trained pilots to fly flying disks.
	No kidding.
	That we have reproduced from alien technology.
	No kidding.
	No kidding, that really is interesting.
	Again, anyone can tell a story.
	Well, okay, now comes the assessment of J-Rod, is it?
	You talk to this human being, he's in his 70s, how does he strike you?
	He strikes me as any engineer in his 70s, who certainly has the technical ability, like Lazar, I have not necessarily tried to verify his educational background.
	Okay, but not necessarily in the 2% of loonies, certainly.
	No, I would regard him as the 2% of people who are reliable.
	Well, that's pretty strong.
	But again, I talk to him just as another human being.
	I'm interested in the story.
	I'm interested in collecting the story, working out the details, and seeing how they mesh with other stories that I know.
	And I call this folklore, I call this collecting like you collect an old rancher's story or
	anybody else's story.
	You want to understand the story first of all and collect its many details.
	Like Lazarus' story, it's a story that's rich in detail and it goes back to these alleged
	UFO crashes that took place in the 40s and 50s.
	Roswell, etc.
	Roswell, etc.
	Maybe there's some that we don't know about that were effectively covered up.
	If any of that is true, if we recovered hardware, what happened then?
	And this is where J. Rod's story picks up.
	He says that, in fact, we did make We picked up hardware, we picked up bodies, and we also picked up a few live ones, a few live aliens.
	And these resulted, this was the basic story that resulted in a portion of our government having contact with the aliens.
	So it makes a great story, true or false, it makes a great story that could make its way into Hollywood at some point, you know.
	But this is the sort of thing I pursue, and I pursue it By a different tact than most people would say.
	Most people would say the moment you mention a story like that, well, have you checked his credentials?
	Have you nailed down everything about his past?
	And I've done some basic work there, but no, I haven't.
	I look at the man himself and say, is this somebody I trust?
	Do I understand how his mind works?
	Why did he come forward?
	Did he tell you that?
	Again, another very interesting thing.
	He says he's been given permission to talk.
	Really?
	Now, what does that mean?
	Does that mean that... Well, I would presume that even Glen Campbell must wonder, well, does that mean that Glen Campbell is going to be used as a flashpoint to disseminate disinformation, or just to muddy the waters out there somehow?
	Or does it mean that Glen Campbell has been appointed to disseminate information about what's really going on?
	Well, in either case, I don't believe that I was chosen specifically.
	I think I sort of stumbled upon this person through other contacts.
	But we've hit it off.
	We get along all right.
	I see him every now and then.
	Is he willing to go public beyond his communication with you?
	No, and this is the point where we give him this name of J-Rod.
	That is not his real name.
	Oh, okay.
	And it's interesting, we're not trying to protect him here from the government.
	I know.
	Listen, I don't blame him.
	In his position, I wouldn't do it either.
	If the press would descend on him, life would change.
	And Bob Lazar is the best proof of that.
	No, it's true.
	As soon as Bob Lazar came forward with his story, suddenly people were camping on his front lawn and saw him as the new messiah.
	Yes, I know.
	And that is the problem.
	As I say, the problem, I think, The whole UFO field is not government disinformation.
	It's not the government muddying the waters.
	It is the UFO believers muddying the waters themselves.
	Oh, I agree.
	Stand by just a second, Glenn.
	We'll come right back to you.
	And then the phone... By the way, the east of the Rockies line is 1-800-825-5033.
	We're going to take calls in a moment.
	I promise.
	1-800-825-5033.
	Dreamland.
	We're going to take calls in a moment.
	I promise.
	1-800-825-5033.
	Dreamland.
	Talking about Dreamland.
	If you want to learn Ontario, alright, what happens?
	How can we help you?
	Well, I just wanted to check if I could get through.
	You can.
	You did?
	You mean that's the whole purpose?
	Just to see if you could get through?
	Any question at all.
	Shoot.
	I heard about that jet that they were making.
	If I could go over...
	How many miles is it?
	Oh, you're talking about the Aurora?
	Yeah.
	Alright, that's a good one.
	What about it?
	Is the Aurora real?
	Ah, there's another vague UFO story.
	I don't know if it's real.
	What we're talking about is a hypersonic aircraft, presumably the fastest in the world, anywhere from Mach 4 to Mach 7, that was Supposedly under development by the Air Force to replace the SR-71, which was mysteriously retired earlier in the 90s.
	Now the question is, does the government have such a plane?
	And to this day, I do not know.
	There was certainly a project in the works to build such a plane.
	Whether it got off the ground, whether it was flown at Groom Lake, I just don't know.
	Would you think it would represent the next logical generation?
	It would, but what makes me skeptical of this is if we're talking about solely human technology, this is something that's incredibly expensive.
	Think of all the billions and billions that were poured into the stealth bomber, for example.
	A hypersonic aircraft is going to be just as expensive and billions and billions that have to come out of a budget someplace.
	While we're on the subject of budgets and very expensive aircraft, the report on the B-2 the other day was pretty pathetic from the GAO.
	It said the B-2 failed tests regarding whether it would be shot down.
	Failed tests regarding whether it was even stealth.
	In other words, it can be seen on radar.
	And generally failed most of its tests, according to the GAO.
	This is an indictment of how our black budget aircraft development works.
	It is the sort of thing that, all UFOs aside, the reason that you cannot let the government Do anything it wants with money.
	It has to be held accountable as the project is proceeding.
	Make sure that the taxpayer gets the bang for its buck and these billions that we're spending.
	I think this is a symptom of exactly the sort of thing that we're trying to change here, to get more accountability.
	Of course, on the other hand, the F-117 is generally considered to be a big success.
	Indeed.
	But the fact that it was secret, the fact that it was non-existent, did that Was that really necessary?
	Did that give us the edge?
	Getting down to the nitty-gritty, well, the F-117 certainly has, and did in the Iraq War, but getting... But could Saddam have reproduced it?
	Well, I don't know.
	Getting down to the nitty-gritty, do you think Freedom Ridge should be available to the public, that the government was wrong to close it up, or do you understand the need for national security when it comes to developing aircraft?
	This is always a very delicate issue.
	There is certainly a need for secrecy in defense.
	It is probably the most essential element.
	You don't want to tell your potential adversaries just what you have, just what your troop strength is.
	But there is also a need for accountability, and there is this constant push and pull, this balance that has to be struck.
	What I am saying is that there has to be another force The military is always pushing for more secrecy.
	There has to be another force that is pushing for greater openness.
	And you are the openness force?
	That is my job, like an advocate for a certain position.
	Well, may the force be with you then.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Hi.
	I'm calling from KSFO in San Francisco.
	Yes, sir.
	About three years ago, I went out and videotaped a thing at the Little Early Inn.
	It was a meeting put on by Norio Hayakawa and Gary Schultz.
	Bill Cooper showed up.
	John Lear showed up.
	Bob Lazar showed up.
	And then a group of us went out and hiked up to... I guess it was Freedom Ridge.
	It was about five, maybe ten miles away.
	Yeah, that was Whiteside at the time.
	That was before Freedom Ridge was discovered.
	Oh, Whiteside.
	Okay.
	And we sat up there and just watched things come and go all night.
	You know, different aircraft.
	It was all pretty conventional.
	We watched the Jeeps come out to the edge of the fence, and every time it got a little too loud, it was obvious that they knew we were there.
	We saw Old Faithful come in about five in the morning.
	The interesting thing to me was that the meeting itself at the Little Alien, one of the big things they discussed was the possibility of Let me ask you something.
	on underground at Area 51 and I'm wondering if Lazar or any of the other
	people you've run into have alluded to it. I know John Lear has a little bit.
	Let me ask you something. When you were recording this event and
	and they were discussing these genetic experiments, what was Bob Lazar doing?
	Was he sitting in the in...
	He was sitting in the audience, just observing.
	Yes.
	Knowing Bob, I would think that he would regard that as pretty ridiculous.
	Bob is a very nuts and bolts guy.
	He'll say, this is what I experienced, and this is all I know.
	Right, and he refuses.
	I'm one of the lucky few that has been able to interview Bob Lazar.
	And you're quite correct.
	The moment anybody gets off into the deep end, Uh, Bob will stop and say, look, uh, I don't know anything about that.
	Um, I don't even want to speculate about it.
	Uh, here's what I did.
	As you said, he's a nuts and bolts kind of guy.
	To me, that's always made him, uh, quite believable.
	You, you sort of stay away from these social, uh, UFO, I don't want to use the word cults, but, uh.
	I think I want to stay away, uh, separate what is the evidence from what is the interpretation of the evidence.
	Bob Lazar's story is evidence.
	It's either false evidence or true evidence.
	But upon this, people have piled their whole belief systems and piled on their whole baggage that they want to believe, the things that they want to believe.
	And I think Bob is right in just sticking with the facts.
	But you've got a million different interpretations of those facts that are really muddying the waters more than anything else.
	It really brushes up against almost for some being a religion, doesn't it?
	In other words, they want to believe in this so much.
	Absolutely.
	This is no different than humans have been all through the generations.
	They want to believe certain things and they will believe those things regardless of what the evidence is.
	An article of faith.
	And that's just like a religion.
	And that's not far from a cult.
	Indeed.
	Uh, and there are some out there who say they are ufologists, who might almost be thought of as cult leaders?
	That's right, but a cult leader can only work if there are willing followers, and there certainly are plenty of willing followers.
	This is something that Area 51 has taught me, that there are people There are certainly skeptics out there, people who will disbelieve no matter what.
	But there's also the true believers who will believe no matter what, and they will believe anything connected with UFOs.
	All right, Glenn.
	Stay right there.
	We'll be right back to you.
	I have seen one of that.
	I know it.
	It gives me no sort of faith in anything, but I do know what I saw.
	We'll be back with more from the high desert in a moment.
	This is CBC.
	♪♪ ♪♪
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
	Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	1-800-618-8255. 1-800-618-TALK. First-time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	For the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	727-1295.
	In the 702 area code.
	Now again, here's our bell.
	The only number we didn't give you there is the East of the Rockies number which is 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033.
	My guest is Glenn Campbell.
	727-1295, 727-1295, in the 702 area code.
	Now again, here's our phone.
	The only number we didn't give you there is the East of the Rockies number, which is 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033. My guest is Glenn Campbell. He'll be back in a moment.
	I'm telling you, grab a pencil. I'm going to give you some important information right now.
	As you know, the, um, the edition of the newsletter about to be mailed to you has in it the five incredible Roswell photographs by, uh, exclusive permission of Ray Santilli.
	And those are coming out here shortly, on their way to you.
	Now, second item.
	The, uh, Hale-Bopp, uh, comet coming in, um, which I call Bebop.
	Big thing out there beyond the orbit of Jupiter.
	We have got a photograph of it, and it's a beaut.
	It's going in the next newsletter.
	Uh, actually, there are two... Glen, are you there?
	I'm here.
	Alright, uh, let's go, um, out east of the Rockies and say good, uh, good evening.
	You're on the air with Glen Campbell.
	Hello.
	Hi, where are you?
	Scott in Denver.
	Okay, Scott, you're going to have to speak up.
	You're a little weak.
	Okay, how's that?
	Better, go ahead.
	Yeah, I wanted to ask Glenn if there's been any kind of sightings or anything seen up in Tonopah.
	There's sightings everywhere in the West.
	The whole question is how do you distinguish the good ones from the bad ones?
	You know, similar to what Area 51 people have been seeing there.
	Well, like Art Bell's sighting, you hear that popping up every now and then, a triangular craft, like in Belgium.
	Tonopah, I have not heard of anything specifically recently.
	Okay.
	Now, the Tonopah, the town, and Tonopah, the base, are two different things.
	There is another semi-secret base, not much unlike Groom Lake, near the town of Tonopah.
	It's called the Tonopah Test Range.
	And that's also been a place for the testing of top-secret aircraft.
	There's speculation about what must be going on there.
	Many of the same aircraft that would be tested at Groom would also be tested there.
	Plenty of rumors, but no substantial facts.
	All right.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi, this is Brendan from Scottsdale, Arizona.
	Okay, turn your radio off, Brendan.
	Okay.
	And go ahead.
	Um, I'm, believe it or not, I'm working on the, uh, S4 UFO as we speak, and I'm kind of curious as far as... I almost, I really don't want to question... Wait a minute, wait a minute.
	You mean the model of it?
	Yes, Bob Lazer's model, what he's described.
	Bob Lazar.
	That's very important.
	You specify, otherwise we're going to sit here thinking you're working on a saucer.
	Yeah, oh, well, I am.
	Technically, it's plastic, though.
	All right, all right.
	Well, in the top section of the model, there is no You're referring to the turret of the very top part of the saucer I imagine?
	let someone see this aircraft and not give them access to that area.
	I mean, obviously he's in a top secret form as far as he's gone to the highest levels of security to see this aircraft
	exist.
	You're referring to the turret of the very top part of the saucer, I imagine.
	Yes.
	Yes. Well, just being a top secret, having top secret clearance doesn't give you access to everything.
	Things are top-secret compartmentalized, which means that you have access only to the absolute minimum that you need to see.
	This is true in all top-secret projects.
	There's no sense in you knowing about that turret, Bob Lazar knowing about that turret, if he has no business being there.
	It has no A technical need to be there.
	In other words, it would be risking knowledge for no gain, and they don't do that.
	They don't do that.
	Now, the other source, J-Rod, says that he has seen what is up there in that turret, in the model that he was working with, and it's a navigation system.
	There are little windows along the side of that turret, and it's used to sight on stars or whatever.
	And this is exactly how information is gathered, isn't it, Glenn?
	In other words, a piece here, a piece there, and you piece it all together.
	You put it all together into a big puzzle, and if you do, certain inconsistencies will come up if the stories are in fact false.
	Or if they're true, you'll see a much richer set of connections.
	You see, reality is different from a lie in that reality has a lot of rich connections with other parts of reality.
	This is how you tell when someone's telling the truth or someone is lying.
	It's interesting.
	In a way, you're using the government's own method of making determinations against them.
	Well, this is standard logic.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi, Glenn.
	I'd like to talk about the aliens, because I'm pretty much convinced that the UFOs are either US or maybe possibly Russian military planes.
	In the Bible, in the apocalypse of the Catholic Bible, Paul's chapter, I mean, chapter 16.
	No, no, no, no, we don't, no, no, no.
	Sorry, we don't allow that on this program.
	Thanks for the call.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	How you doing?
	I'm doing.
	Is this Art Bell?
	It is.
	Glenn Campbell, yes.
	I'm so glad I got through.
	Where are you?
	I'm in Nevada.
	Nevada, alright.
	In Carson City.
	Okay.
	I was very, um...
	Turn your radio on.
	Okay.
	Everybody has to do that or they get confused because there is a delay.
	Alright, go ahead.
	There we go.
	Uh, first I wanted to say that, um, I am enjoying your programming very much.
	And, um, I, too, have seen a UFO.
	Also, I'd like to ask you, I watched the news very carefully for a few days after that, uh, interview with Mr. Scallion.
	Yes.
	And I never heard a thing about the earthquake in Chile.
	Okay.
	This doesn't relate to my guest, does it?
	Not really.
	Okay.
	Well, the earthquake did occur.
	Yeah, I'm sure it did.
	You can check USGS figures and you'll hear about it.
	So, any question for my guest?
	Shoot, anything you want.
	Anything I want?
	Okay.
	I have seen UFO A long time ago, and I was wondering how much activity there was over Nevada at this time.
	Oh, that's fair.
	How much activity is there, Glenn?
	My personal sense, I mean, no one is really collecting all the sighting reports nationally because there's just so many of them, and there's so much work to be done in distinguishing the good from the bad.
	My personal sense Is that, yes, there's a lot of sightings in Nevada, but there's a lot of sightings all over the country.
	Are there more here, though, arguably, than elsewhere?
	That's a good question.
	I'm in Nevada, and this is all I'm exposed to, so I can't say.
	I just don't know.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hello?
	Yes.
	Yes, turn your radio off and tell us where you're calling from, please.
	Okay.
	My name is Mike, and I'm calling from Lexington, Kentucky.
	Lexington, Kentucky.
	Okay, Mike.
	Yes, I'm a little bit confused on the secrecy aspect of this.
	What can you legally view and not get into trouble?
	Can you take a hot air balloon up with a telescope and look, or what can you do?
	Well, as I say, there are these mountain tops that are very distant, but technically you can view the base from a legal vantage point by climbing up to the top of an 8,000 foot mountain.
	Well, his question is a good one, though.
	Suppose you went just outside the airspace that they have closed off.
	And you took a hot air balloon up?
	Yes, you could do that.
	But you'll have to be a good distance away, 13 miles away, before you'll hit the unrestricted airspace.
	And yes, you could do that.
	You could fly a small plane.
	People have done this, fly a small Cessna along the border.
	However, in a Cessna or in a balloon, you're dealing with a lot of shaking, a lot of forces.
	And generally it's not going to be very satisfying, especially if you have to use a telephoto lens to see anything at the bay.
	No one's tried it, though.
	No one has really done anything seriously in this realm.
	All right, so there you go, Kentucky.
	Maybe you'll be the first.
	First time caller line, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you?
	St.
	Paul, Minnesota.
	Okay, good.
	Welcome.
	Thank you.
	That's it.
	You're on the air.
	No screeners.
	Go ahead.
	Okay.
	My question to Glenn is what he thinks about Philip Glass.
	Some people feel as though he is actually a tool of the government in the fact that he refuses to believe in there is any kind of activity and is very adamant in saying The government is not hiding or covering up anything as far as UFOs?
	Oh, it's a very good question.
	And on the Larry King Show the other night, once again, they brought forth the specter of Mr. Klass, who, Glenn, I would almost, I've had him on the show and we've done debates, I would almost put him in the category of the cult of non-believers.
	Indeed.
	I know him fairly well.
	We exchange newsletters, in fact.
	And I find his newsletter very interesting and very amusing.
	But Mr. Klass, I don't believe that he is a government agent.
	I believe that he is pursuing a viewpoint that he believes in.
	And his viewpoint excludes any human testimony.
	It's saying that if a human told you that he saw a light in the sky or a human told you he was abducted by aliens, you have to discount it because humans are unreliable.
	That is his basic viewpoint and it has a certain validity.
	You have to understand how this man thinks and I think that intellectually you have to deal with his objections.
	They are generally well grounded.
	What about the same category named Carl Sagan?
	Carl Sagan I don't know as much about as I know about Phil.
	Carl Sagan has It just seems to be a sourpuss in my view.
	But I can't comment too much on his personality.
	I just don't know him.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in St.
	Paul, Minnesota.
	Oh, another one.
	St.
	Paul.
	All right.
	Welcome.
	Turn your radio off.
	Yeah.
	Right away.
	Yeah.
	Okay, your first name?
	Bob.
	Okay, Bob, what's your question?
	Well, it's kind of a question, you may have talked about it, but there was a book that came out, The Philadelphia Experiment, and in it they talked about a physicist or a researcher named Brown.
	Townsend Brown?
	And evidently he had developed, pardon?
	Townsend Brown?
	Who?
	Townsend Brown?
	Townsend, yeah, that's the one.
	And he had developed some kind of a Capacitor which um evidently would give uh would defy you somehow reduce gravity or chew up gravity waves or something like that and um you know this this sounds like a a real uh propulsion method that could be used I mean uh you just need a bunch of energy is all it is it's just basically a capacitor positive and a negative plate and uh
	You know, this sounds like one way to simply do this.
	Now, I don't know if you've run into that or not.
	Well, this is very similar to the explanations that are given by Bob Lazar and my source, J-Rod.
	Oh, really?
	Well, I'm not a physicist.
	I'm afraid I don't fully understand it.
	But there's something to do with the electrical field around the craft that somehow manipulates gravity.
	Bob Lazar also talks about these gravity amplifiers.
	I think that if I were a little bit smarter in this field, I could integrate it together a little bit better.
	But it's not something to be completely dismissed, that maybe electricity, there's some aspect of electrical fields that we don't understand that could affect gravity.
	Well, I think the interesting thing about it is that Evidently, Brown could never get anyone to buy his invention and supposedly, and energy was a problem, supposedly he went over to the French and he attached some big long, for want of a better term, like an extension cord and plugged in a lot of power to this thing and they actually got it going off the ground and kind of flying around, you know, remotely on this tether, this umbilical cord.
	I think the thing about Lazar if I understand is he says that there's this element from some other planet that produces this tremendous amount of energy and that seems to be the limiting factor.
	What element was that?
	That's right.
	Indeed, and again, true or false, he picked a very good element to get involved here because this is a gray area where we don't quite know what these elements do because we've never produced them here.
	We continue, however, to occasionally hear news of development of a new element headed toward the 115 number.
	Indeed, but an awful lot of energy has to be put into this reaction to get those elements when we're talking about Element 112, I guess, which might be the latest.
	Yes.
	You have to produce, you have to dump tons and tons of energy into your cyclotron, or whatever you're producing this with, to get even a few atoms of this item.
	Of 112, right.
	And it's very unstable when it's produced.
	That I've also heard.
	Alright, hold on for a second, Glenn.
	Fascinating area.
	Nevertheless, we have reached 112, so perhaps in three more Just three more quantum leaps to new elements and we'll all be in saucers.
	We'll be right back.
	If you feel the desire to control your own work hours, your work environment, be your own boss, choose your own work... Campbell, hi.
	Hello there.
	Oh, I'm sorry, you're not.
	Hold on for just a second.
	Let me redo this.
	Now, west of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Yes, Glenn.
	Hi.
	You said, any question?
	Are you married?
	I'm going to ask you a question about the next part of our excellence because right off the top you said your job was
	My question is do you have any knowledge of about 8 or 10 years ago on a local show they had a call from a fellow who
	to gather information and disseminate it so that we could hold them accountable and responsible.
	had worked in the government and said they were doing some experimentations on crossbreeding of animals and humans.
	That's just one level beyond where I want to be investigating.
	I think there's a big world of the unknown out there.
	I think I'm just trying to take things one step at a time.
	And I've heard no substantial stories along those lines.
	I'm sort of trying to concentrate on nailing down even one or two UFOs, you know.
	You like the nuts and bolts, partner?
	Yeah, I sort of follow the Lazar gospel, quite frankly.
	The Lazar gospel, alright.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Where are you?
	Oklahoma City.
	Oklahoma City, alright.
	Yeah, out in the country here.
	Alright.
	My dad is very unemotional and he's not into any Anything really except for teeth, you know, he's a dentist.
	But I asked him the other day, do you believe in UFOs?
	And he said, well, I've seen one.
	And I said, what?
	And he said, well, when I was nine years old, when he lived in South Africa, he was laying under a tree and he saw a thing in the sky and it was going too fast.
	So he knew, you know, they didn't have that back then.
	He's 60.
	He just turned 60.
	And I said, well, what did it look like?
	And he said, a cigar.
	And it was going real fast.
	And so anyways, the other day, about June or so, I saw this round thing.
	It was like, well, since I've started listening to your program, I've heard other people say these green fireballs.
	And that's what I saw.
	And so what are those?
	Glenn, I've seen those too.
	Bill, green fireballs, they can be seen easily from Las Vegas.
	You've got to realize, first of all, that a meteorite, when it enters the atmosphere, can be any color at all.
	The color depends on the composition of the meteorite.
	If there's copper in it, I believe, then it's going to be green.
	So you have to be able to distinguish that from something else.
	You have to say, is this a meteorite, before you say something else.
	And like all these things, I'm not there so I can't really evaluate it.
	The most I can do is record it and take down the particulars.
	I've become rather discouraged with lights in the sky for that reason.
	Even if it's a good sighting, you just don't know what to do with it.
	Oh, that's exactly right.
	I generally tell people, oh yes, the green fireballs, they're delivering the pods to Earth.
	Glenn, hold on, we'll be right back to you.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	Glenn Campbell, the world's expert, I guess, on Area 51, short of anybody in the military, out here in civilian life.
	Don't forget, if you'd like to order our newsletter, you may do so.
	24 hours a day it is.
	Busy, please keep trying.
	Yes, the comet photo is going to be in there.
	Next issue.
	The number is 1-800-917-4278.
	1-800-917-4278 1-800-917-4278
	1-800-917-4278.
	It's mean and arbitrary to cut that lady off earlier who was about to quote scripture but
	that is one rule.
	I probably allow more discussion of religion than nearly any program on the air, but I do not allow quoting of scripture.
	For that, we rely on church and Sunday, or whatever day you choose, and that's fine.
	But we don't do that here, and the other rule is no bad language and one call per program.
	Observing all those rules, We'll get along fine.
	Now, the east of the Rockies line, the only one not given in a little phone number bump there, is 1-800-825-5033.
	is 1-800-825-5033.
	1-800-825-5033 if you're east of the Rockies toll free.
	Now, a quick word about Linda Howe.
	You heard Linda Howe much earlier in the program.
	If you want to know more about her and what she does, listen carefully.
	If you enjoy Dreamland's weekly news segments by Linda and firsthand eyewitnesses, Linda Moulton Howe's two books, An Alien Harvest and Glimpses of Other Realities, are acclaimed for their quality, depth, photographs and drawings.
	If you are interested in learning more about the mysterious animal mutilations, crop circles, UFO sightings, the human abduction syndrome, and government knowledge about these worldwide phenomena, you will enjoy these books and videos, available directly from LMH Productions.
	You can dial 1-800-707-9993 to order.
	That's 1-800-707-9993.
	Now, back to the man who knows about it, Glenn Campbell.
	Glenn, are you there?
	I'm here.
	Good.
	Let's go east of the Rockies and say hi.
	You're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	Vermont.
	Vermont.
	All right.
	Yes.
	I have a question.
	Back in the early 70s, I used to be a paper boy, and I'd always read the paper, and there was a lot of things in the paper about the UFOs.
	And then all of a sudden it died.
	I was wondering if Mr. Campbell knows anything about that.
	All right.
	I'll broaden the question a little bit.
	Glenn, it seems to go in great cycles, doesn't it?
	It does.
	And I've been on... I have observed the media firsthand.
	I've seen, which is essentially a big blip in the media over Area 51.
	And people are always saying this must be part of the government plan to release the information.
	No, I don't believe that.
	I believe that the media All right.
	goes through these cycles. Interest naturally goes through cycles and once one large media
	organization jumps on a UFO story then everybody else follows and then sooner or later we become
	satiated with that story and it drops off for a while.
	Alright, with stories like Roswell and this comet and all the rest of it, we must be,
	plus there have been a lot of sightings lately.
	It seems like... Would you say we're at sort of a high point in a cycle?
	Certainly we're at a high point, and it could keep on going like this.
	Certainly if any news got released, it would keep on going.
	But anyone's guess as to where it's going to go now.
	All right, very good.
	Back to the lines.
	You're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Good evening.
	Where are you calling from, please?
	I'm calling from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
	Yes, sir.
	I just want to say, when one looks at statistically from the amount of stars in the universe, the concept that there is some other form of intelligent life on the planet is to me statistically highly likely.
	I don't feel that there's an impossibility that UFOs exist.
	I think that it's quite possible by statistical analysis.
	And I think that as far as the technological advancements that are going to be made, I think that they are predominantly made by the military.
	They're predominantly discovered by the military, unfortunately, ever since the atomic weapons And the public will not be able to look forward to total openness on issues of leading-edge technology.
	That's all I've got to say.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Well, thank you for saying it.
	I'd agree with that statement.
	Would you?
	Well, sure.
	Everyone says, you know, with all those million, million stars, there has to be intelligent life.
	I don't think anyone in the world has much discomfort about that feeling.
	When it gets down to particulars, which aliens are real and which UFOs are real, that's when people get squeamish, and certainly the mainstream gets squeamish.
	Sure.
	All right, back to the lines.
	West of the Rockies.
	Whoops, you would have been on the air.
	Let's make it east of the Rockies.
	You're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi, I just have a question for, is this Art?
	Yes, it is.
	Where are you?
	I'm in St.
	Paul, Minnesota.
	All right.
	This is Andy.
	Yes.
	I was just wondering if there's any other way I could get the five photos of the Roswell autopsy inside your newsletter?
	Well, I gave you the number for the computer bulletin board.
	So those are the two ways that I have provided.
	I'm sure they're on the internet.
	If you have a computer, I don't know of any other way offhand.
	Oh, OK.
	Thanks.
	Right.
	You're welcome.
	Best I can do for him.
	Best I've done.
	I'm a lot like you are, Glenn.
	I try and get Information out every way I can.
	We're lucky to have the internet.
	Yes.
	Certainly, if you were to surf the web, you would find those pictures, I'm sure.
	Absolutely.
	Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hey!
	Hello, Art.
	Hello.
	Hello, Glenn.
	Hi.
	Hey, I can barely hear you fellas, but, uh... Okay, where are you?
	This is the professor from Columbus, Georgia, Art.
	Yes, sir.
	How are you doing?
	Did you receive my fax from last... Well, not really my fax, but did you receive a fax from Uh, party close to me last night.
	Uh, I, I'm sorry, I, well, I think I do recall something.
	Anyway, do you have a question for our guest?
	Oh, yeah.
	Okay.
	Well, as you know, I've, I've been investigating the, uh, UFO phenomenon for some time now, Art.
	I believe me and you've spoke on it a number of times.
	A lot of people have heard me talking with you on the radio, and they'll say, is that you?
	Uh, Mr. Glenn Campbell, about three months ago, I got, uh, I took down a lot of, uh, the desert rats and studied them.
	Right.
	And, uh, that's very interesting.
	And the perception I got from you was one strictly as someone searching for truth.
	Okay.
	Now, tonight, I'm pretty sure I heard you tell Art that you believe that there is alien intelligence, however you feel it is non-threatening.
	Is that correct?
	That's right.
	Okay.
	You're not gonna like what I've got to tell you.
	Okay.
	And, um, it's not real good.
	There are no aliens.
	Okay.
	And the closer I look into it, the more proof I have found.
	There is an intelligence that is working in a great number of directions.
	And I will be ridiculed and mocked and whatever, and I really don't care.
	But this intelligence is working in so many different avenues.
	And G. Gordon Liddy said it is not coming together at a central point.
	However, I happen to know it is.
	What are you talking about, sir?
	There is an... You know, strictly from a scientific standpoint, there is an evil entity that's at work It has one thing on its mind, and that is the mutual, assured destruction of humans and non-human beings.
	Sounds like Satan to me.
	Call it what you like.
	Alright, well, alright, thank you.
	We'll go ahead and call it that.
	And that is generally the religious view, isn't it, Glenn?
	Well, indeed, I haven't explored Satan at all.
	I don't really know.
	Uh, it is an area that while, as I said earlier, I don't allow scripture quoting, I don't mind exploring it.
	It's as likely as any other that this could be spiritual or it could be satanic or it could be one of many things.
	Do you dismiss that?
	Well, it's just something I can't talk about.
	I don't know.
	For example, to argue with that gentleman who was on the line, I think would be futile because He already has his ideas.
	I know.
	There's no real intellectual... I know, I know, I know.
	But nevertheless, it's as good as anybody else's point of view.
	Sure.
	And I was just wondering, do you dismiss it or allow it as one of the possibilities?
	I'm a nuts and bolts guy.
	I like to look for things that I can check.
	Satan is just something I can't check.
	Well, at least not yet.
	Not yet.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Um, yeah, I have a question for Glenn.
	Alright, where are you?
	I'm in San Jose, California.
	San Jose.
	Okay, turn your radio off and go right ahead.
	Yes, um, I was wondering if copper would attract any kind of a energy from space?
	I have no idea.
	No idea.
	Why do you ask that?
	Because my father, once he was in Fresno, where they have copper mines, and he saw some lights up there.
	Ah.
	Well, uh, all I would say to you is you remember the expression pennies from heaven?
	Uh, no.
	No, well, okay.
	Well, maybe you're too young.
	Well, this is, uh, this is certainly a plausible theory that the aliens need some sort of mineral from Earth, and that's why they're coming here.
	And one, one mineral I've heard of from Mr. Jayrod is boron.
	Maybe boron.
	So invest in boron.
	Well, I, you know, I like that idea a lot better than humans as Nutritional value.
	Yeah, well, it's a senseless waste of humans, I would think.
	Well, it depends on your point of view.
	I mean, from the cow's point of view, I'm sure that hamburgers are a senseless waste.
	Senseless waste of cows, correct.
	That's right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hello?
	No, you're not.
	Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hello, this is Fritz from Phoenix calling.
	Hi, Fritz.
	It's been a long time.
	Yeah, it's very obvious that staff of Area 51 is listening in to Dreamland, and especially tonight.
	You know, it's a comment that doesn't make... It's a non-brainer to realize that.
	Of course they listen.
	And now, the main Bob Lazar has come up quite a bit.
	Bob Lazar, yeah.
	But we also have to give credit to John Lee and George Knapp.
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	It was George Knapp who gave Area 51 a quality exposure.
	I wouldn't disagree with that at all.
	Thanks, Ritz.
	George Knapp, a guest here many, many times, once part of a program I did prior to this, an investigative reporter for CBS affiliate In Las Vegas, and has done a lot of very good work on Area 51, and John Lear, who is a very good friend of mine, also has done a great deal of work.
	Glenn, John has said some things, though, about the aliens that go beyond, I'm sure, where you would be willing to go.
	And John actually does connect it, and does think it possible they are evil ...entities, really has moved in that direction in the last few years.
	Certainly.
	And you agree with that assessment of where he's gone?
	Again, I don't make those interpretations.
	I'm like Bob Lazar, I stick to the facts, and I think Bob would probably agree with me that he doesn't have that inclination to say they're good or evil.
	But John has actually come to the point where he firmly believes they're evil, number one, and number two, will finally dispense the advice Something awful is going to happen.
	Just lead your life.
	Love your family.
	Enjoy the time you have left.
	Stand by, Glenn.
	I'll be right back to you.
	He's made statements of that sort on my program.
	It's pretty chilling stuff.
	And it's particularly chilling because he says it with a certain very calm, Uh, kind of resignation that would chill you if you heard it.
	And on that note, we'll be right back.
	You don't have to put up... Back, uh, to Glenn Campbell, and I want to give Glenn, uh, toward the end of the show here, an opportunity to once again say, Glenn, if they go to the World Wide Web, and they do a web search, uh, what keyword would they use to get to your website?
	Well, the surefire bet would be to search for UFOs, because all those UFO pages are pretty well linked together.
	Right.
	And you could also try searching for Desert Rat, and what you're looking for is the Groom Lake Desert Rat, or my Area 51 page, all of which have everything I know.
	How do you feel about being called the Groom Lake Desert Rat?
	Well, that's the name of the newsletter, but I am pleased to be a Desert Rat indeed.
	Yes.
	Now, for people who are not on the internet, I can send them a free catalog by Snail mail, as we call it.
	Snail mail.
	All right, before you give it out, is this the same address as the Area 51 Viewer's Guide?
	That's correct.
	All right, which is $19, and that includes shipping and handling?
	That's correct.
	All right.
	The address for that, or the free catalog, all right, is?
	Publications relating to Area 51.
	Just drop me a line at the Area 51 Research Center in Rachel, Nevada.
	8-9-0-0-1.
	All you really have to remember is that zip code, 8-9-0-0-1, and I'll send you the catalog.
	All right.
	Well, that's a great offer.
	All right.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hi.
	Yes, I'm calling from Columbia, Missouri.
	I'm a 16-year-old science student here, and I have a couple topics that I'd like to discuss.
	The first, the crop circles.
	I just heard them mentioned.
	The producers of the Crop Circles have already come forth as a bunch of punk teenagers.
	I mean, me personally, I believe in UFOs and other intelligence, but I think this is one topic that needs to be put to rest.
	Well, this is already way out of my field because I just don't deal with Crop Circles.
	That's in Linda Howe's field, and when we have her as a guest, you're welcome to call, sir.
	She would have some strong opposite arguments, but that's not the time for the question.
	What else do you have?
	These sightings, I think the reason there are more sightings now, people aren't afraid to come out.
	It's more of an open area.
	That certainly could be true, and better communication as well.
	Right.
	For the caller that called in the last, brought the attention to the religious aspect of that, I think that was a feeble attempt to make an intellectual argument, and I think anybody that doesn't believe that there's other intelligent life in the universe is maybe very non-intellectual and egotistical.
	All right, well, I appreciate the opinion and the call, and I don't know where else we'd go with that.
	First-time caller line, you're on the air with Glenn Campbell.
	Hello?
	Yes, uh, Mr. Campbell.
	Hi.
	Hi.
	Uh, I was wondering, uh, when I get on the, uh, World Wide Web, uh, I'm looking for, uh, camo dudes.
	A camo dude?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I don't know if they have a web page.
	Okay, can you get it from the web page?
	Camo Dude is our name for the security guys that hang out along the border because they're
	in camouflage fatigue.
	But I don't think you'll find them because they have their own webpage.
	No, no, no.
	What I'm talking about is the manual that you had.
	Oh, okay.
	Well, there is a security manual that has been placed on the internet, a security manual
	for the Camo Dude, in fact, describing some of their functions.
	And this is...
	Okay, I'm connected to that.
	I didn't know if I was getting a write-up or if I was getting the actual manual that
	you put on there.
	I mean, it didn't make the connection.
	It just kind of blinked there for a second and went back to the main webpage.
	Oh, you're talking about a technical problem.
	I can't say.
	You probably should send me an email message at one of those addresses there.
	Did you get to a main page, an Area 51 page?
	Well, I did, like you said, I typed in Desert Rat in the web crawler.
	Okay.
	You...
	I would say search for...
	Find any UFO page at all.
	Right.
	And that will eventually lead you to the Desert Rat, to the Area 51 page where you'll find the security manual and other things.
	Okay, I'd like to ask you too, what, how come you don't like Chuck Clark?
	Who?
	Well, you know, we don't want to talk about individual people.
	I think we don't want to be flinging mud at each other, but obviously in the UFO field, as in every field, you have a lot of rivalries going on and a lot of bad blood, and this is just the way humans are.
	Well, that's a good final question.
	We're about out of time.
	I sure would like to see a lot of the UFO community heal, and it sort of rips itself apart bit by bit, doesn't it?
	Well, this is the way humans are.
	I think that if you have any field, especially UFOs, where you have no solid base of agreement to begin with, no one can agree what UFOs are, never mind what we should be doing about them.
	What you see is humans doing what they do best, which is arguing with each other.
	And I think this is inevitable, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that.
	And so it shall go on.
	Glenn Campbell, it has been a pleasure.
	It's a pleasure here as well.
	We're out of time.
	We'll do it again sometime.
	The Great Master, Area 51.
	Glenn, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Take care.
	Glenn Campbell, indeed a pleasure to have him on.
	And I'm sorry, we're governed by the clock.
	We must go.
	But once again, remember some fascinating stuff.
	It's going to be published in our newsletter.
	So, by all means, order it.
	The order number for our newsletter at $29.95 a year, worth every penny, is 1-800-917-4278.
	ninety five cents a year worth every penny.
	Is 1-800-917-4278.
	Just keep trying until you finally get through.
	I'm Art Bell, from the high desert near Dreamland.
	Good night.
	This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience not easily nor neatly put in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not that.
	Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.

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