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July 30, 1995 - Art Bell

02:02:08

Dreamland with Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe - Hale Bopp Discovered - Richard Sauder - Underground Bases

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	...in a box.
	Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
	And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe, but don't see.
	This is Dreamland.
	It absolutely is a Sunday night and another Dreamland on the air.
	Good evening, everybody.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
	And, uh, let me tell you what is to be for this evening.
	Um, whether you've heard or not, the GAO report on Roswell is out.
	Released first, um, in the form of a press release from, uh, Congressman Schiff's office.
	And now, of course, the entire report is available.
	And you're going to hear a little piece in a moment, uh, from Linda Howe.
	Which is going to, I think, open your eyes a little bit about how to look at this report.
	And then we'll have, possibly, Congressman Schiff on, and he is now back in Washington, so it's problematic whether we're going to get him or not, but we're going to give it the college try here.
	And I've been promised his aide will answer the phone and transfer it studiously to the congressman.
	We'll see whether that occurs or not.
	If it does, we'll get straight from the congressman.
	We'll get the information about how he feels about it.
	They've been running some articles back in the New Mexico newspaper.
	The congressman is a little upset with, I understand.
	So we'll We'll do that, if I'm keeping all of this a little close to the vest right now.
	It's because I want you to hang on.
	Then comes Richard Sauter, and Richard is going to be talking about underground tunnels and bases, and more, actually.
	I've got a very interesting fax here, suggesting that there are reports coming in that Chile was just hit by a 7.8 Earthquake at about 11 a.m.
	Eastern Time Now this would seem to be fulfilling the cycle of quakes that Gordon Michael Scallion talked about that would be seven point Plus quakes very worrisome, and I've also got a call into Gordon Michael Scallion, so we'll try and get information for For you on that and I believe that mr. Sauter tonight's guest will have some news on that as well So that's kind of an outline of where we're going.
	In a moment, we go there.
	If you all the way to Philadelphia, and she's got a special report, and it concerns Roswell.
	Linda, it's all yours.
	Well, thanks Art.
	Before I get into the GAO release, I wanted to just quickly update that this past week there was a new report of a cow found dead near Manchester, Oklahoma.
	Really?
	With an ear and tongue removed from the head.
	The heart removed from the chest and the udder and tail removed from the body.
	All bloodless excisions according to the Alfalfa County Sheriff's Office.
	And the Press Democrat in Santa Rosa, California reported today that an odd geometric formation about 150 feet long and looking something like a detailed kind of dumbbell shape was found on a grassy hillside horse pasture east of Santa Rosa.
	The newspaper reports that the formation looks, quote, burned into the grass, unquote, overlooking Rincon Valley.
	The resident was awakened by a flash of light the night before he found this formation in his horse pasture, and I'm going to have more on these stories next week.
	But, the big news tonight is the Friday, July 28th release of the Government Accounting Office's report to New Mexico Congressman Steve Schiff, detailing results of an investigation related to events surrounding that alleged crash of a flying saucer, as it was called back in some of the newspaper reports in July of 47, on a ranch near Corona, New Mexico, and the military's response to that crash.
	Congressman Schiff released a press release Friday, and it was entitled, quote, Schiff Receives, Releases Roswell Report, Missing Documents, Leave Unanswered, Questions, unquote.
	Because he had difficulty getting answers about the alleged crash from the Department of Defense, Congressman Schiff asked the GAO to investigate last year.
	Now he says in his press release, quote, The Government Accounting Office report states that the outgoing messages from Roswell Army Airfield for 1946 to 1949 were destroyed without proper authority, unquote.
	Schiff pointed out that these messages would have shown how military officials in Roswell were explaining to their superiors exactly what happened.
	Quote, it is my understanding that these outgoing messages were permanent records which should never have been destroyed.
	The GAO could not identify who destroyed the messages or why.
	Unquote.
	This afternoon, I talked with longtime Roswell investigator and nuclear physicist, Kenton Friedman, who's been with us on Dreamland before.
	And he talked about the GAO release and Congressman Schiff's emphasis on the unauthorized destruction of Roswell-related documents in the 1940s.
	Now, Stanton Friedman.
	Always good to have him on the show.
	Stanton Friedman coming up next.
	In a moment.
	Any moment.
	Here he comes.
	It certainly leaves a big hole In the notion that we've been able to check all the records, there isn't anything there that clearly we, the GAO, was not able to look at those records.
	Well, no one has been able to look at the records if they were all destroyed.
	That's right.
	Yep.
	A quote from the report itself, Roswell Army Airfield, outgoing messages from October 1946 through December 1949 were destroyed.
	The document disposition form did not properly indicate the authority under which the disposal action was taken.
	So nobody knows who destroyed the records or what?
	That's right.
	No record of it whatsoever.
	That, to me, is one of the bigger questions of where did the, we'll call it the inner sanctum, the secret government, Where did it begin to form, and how did it assume this kind of authority, even that far back, to the point of destroying records almost at its own command, without any record whatsoever?
	Well, remember that we're dealing with immediate post-Manhattan Project times.
	The government had already long since established, especially in New Mexico, procedures for dealing with highly classified matters, and that, you know, we're lucky that there's even reference to records of some sort.
	On the Manhattan Project, Dr. Vannevar Bush, also involved in Majestic Glow and a zillion other things, noted in his oral history that that project, which in today's dollars would have cost about $20 billion, During the life of that project, there were weekly meetings between, of him, General Leslie Groves, Dr. Conant, and Secretary of War Stimson.
	There were no secretary, no agenda, no minutes, there weren't any records.
	And they ran that huge project that way.
	Right, meaning that they were covering up almost an inner sanctum government right from the beginning of the Manhattan Project.
	Oh yeah, no question about it.
	And Roosevelt trusted these people.
	Likely so, I might add.
	I mean, there's never been any indication that there was any reason that he shouldn't have trusted them.
	He was busy with a little warrior run, a big warrior run.
	And we were getting kicked around at the early part of the war, especially when the Manhattan Project started.
	So it's understandable.
	What I'm saying is that you have to think in terms of the 1947 Right.
	Context.
	Which they had a precedent for the one of the most secret projects in U.S.
	history being totally covered up and run from the President's office, so continuing an alleged crashed disk and retrieval operation in the same manner would not be surprising.
	No, especially in the same place.
	This was New Mexico.
	Los Alamos, Kirtland, Sandia, White Sands was... that's where the first atom bomb was set.
	It was on the grounds of White Sands.
	And I'll guarantee you they didn't pass out notices to all the people in the neighborhood about the first atom bomb test.
	They put out a press release saying, uh, unfortunately an ammunition dump had blown up, but fortunately nobody was injured.
	Well, I have also read, uh, from your letter to, uh, Mr. Richard Davis, Director of the National Security Analysis Office, uh, GAO, uh, just quoting from you.
	You said, having been to 15 different, uh, document archives over the years, You raised this question, was any special compartmented information above top secret reviewed for the GAO report?
	And you continued, it would appear that at the NSA, CIA, and FBI offices, the only material reviewed was related to FOIA, which is Freedom of Information Request, which almost by definition would not have been above top secret, the FBI.
	They referred to the one memo Uh, that does mention, clearly, the crass stuff from Roswell, and the balloon, possible balloon explanation, but they say nothing!
	About a two-day later document, which has J. Edgar Hoover himself, and the document came from the FBI, I don't think there's any question of its authenticity, J. Edgar Hoover's saying we need access to recovered disks!
	Because in the, and I can't tell whether it's SW or LA case, The Army wouldn't allow us access.
	Well, this is two days after the other memo about Roswell.
	Surely the mention of recovered discs ought to be worth a look.
	Right, and the date on the Hoover memo again was?
	The 10th, I believe.
	On July, yes.
	And I would have thought that that memo would have been pursued.
	Yeah, the Hoover, the FBI.
	I mean, the FBI, first of all, we're dealing with the head of the FBI.
	Right.
	For a lot of years.
	Second, we're dealing with an organization which has within its ranks People who are experts at handwriting analysis.
	And the very fact that that memo would not have been followed up in this GAO request does automatically raise a red flag about other sensitive compartmentalized information being off the limits.
	Yeah, it certainly does.
	And so, you know, I think the GAO is to be commended.
	I know they got a lot of praise from the outside.
	Some of the press was giving them a hard time.
	And the nasty, noisy negativists of course gave him a hard time for wasting time, money, effort, energy on such nonsense, you know.
	So I give him credit for that.
	I certainly give Congressman Schiff credit for having the guts to pursue it in the first place, and to persist in the second place, and for taking the trouble in his press release to call attention to something that could just as easily have been buried.
	You know, he could have taken the viewpoint that well they didn't find anything.
	Instead he spreads like the fact that historic records for two years were destroyed and should not have been destroyed.
	Yep, and so that's...
	And Art, given that sort of catch-22 about this situation, Congressman Schiff also discussed the government's 1947
	weather balloon cover-up story in his July 28th press release.
	Referring to this current GAO investigation, Schiff said, quote, at least this effort caused the Air Force to acknowledge that the crashed vehicle was no weather balloon.
	That explanation never fits the fact of high military security used at the time, unquote.
	However, the Air Force still persists with its September 1994 claim that what crashed on the Corona New Mexico Ranch was a classified Project Mogul, which was experimenting with a series of tethered balloons and equipment at about 45,000 feet above the Earth's surface in the troposphere, and they were trying to detect According to a scientist I've talked to pressure waves
	which might be traced to Soviet nuclear testing back in 1947 it's possible art that in June to July that year both
	balloons and Flying discs from somewhere came down in New Mexico
	well You know I'm tempted to react right away
	way.
	The fact that two years of records are missing without proper authority for destruction, permanent records, is just too much.
	Everywhere I turn, Linda, Washington, investigations of all kinds, anything they don't want you to know, these days, it's erased, it's blank, or it's destroyed.
	I know.
	It's not exactly the way we thought a democracy was supposed to work.
	No, indeed not, but maybe there's the lesson of Richard Nixon and Watergate.
	Maybe everybody paid attention.
	Right.
	Well, were you able to get congressmanship on the line yet?
	I haven't yet.
	I have not yet tried.
	We're going to do that at a break here.
	Well, it'll be interesting because if the, for example, if the Albuquerque Journal and any other newspapers in New Mexico did in fact Take his press release and GAO report, as I understand, and assert that this now was definitely proving that what came down in New Mexico was only, quote-unquote, a balloon of some sort, then I think that we still have the same problem today, that even the media is not understanding the complexity of this story, and that headlines are entrenching in the public's mind
	Uh, a kind of a cover-up story that persists even if there were, and I'm sure there were, these scientific experiments.
	They don't explain the flying saucer crash headline that was released by Roswell on the Air Force base itself.
	Oh, they don't explain a lot.
	Um, alright, Linda, give out your phone number very quickly.
	We're running short on time.
	Okay.
	Uh, I, uh, always welcome, uh, to hear from people at my FaxLania.
	And the zip code is 1-9-0-0-6.
	And, uh, next week I will follow up on crop circles and this, uh, new mutilation material.
	Excellent.
	Excellent, Linda.
	And, as always, thank you.
	Well, and I hope you get congressmanship.
	Well, I hope so, too.
	Thanks, Linda.
	Right.
	Take care.
	And we will make an attempt at that in a moment.
	GMX, what is GMX?
	It is, very simply, a modern 9-7-9-9.
	Well, alright, as of yet, no luck with Congressman Schiff.
	His aide, and it's not his fault, I knew it would work out this way, his aide was supposed to pick up the telephone and transfer it to the Congressman.
	His aide has a tape machine on, so we'll continue to work on that as the evening progresses.
	Richard Souder coming up.
	I want to remind everybody, if you want copies of the Roswell Five, photographs we've got either on a bulletin board service
	which you can call at area code 702-727-1709 or you can get them I'll
	tell you we're up to deadline on the newsletter order our newsletter after dark
	now right now get done we're on deadline and you'll get the Roswell
	photographs that number 24 hours a day including right now is one
	800-917-4278.
	It's $29.95 for a full year.
	And if you order now, you'll get the Roswell photographs.
	But that deadline quickly is approaching.
	1-800-917-4278.
	And later in the program, we'll give you an address.
	For now, a break at the bottom of the hour.
	Roswell photographs, but that deadline quickly is approaching 1-800-917-4278 and later in
	the program we'll give you an address.
	For now, a break at the bottom of the hour and Dreamland will be right back.
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	From the Kingdom of Nile, we continue with your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
	Call Art Now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
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	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
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	Now again, here's our bell.
	Now again, I am here.
	We do not have Congressman Schiff.
	I certainly don't blame it on him.
	I blame it on his aide, who said, why I can't give you those numbers, so I'll have to be in here to transfer the call.
	Well, naturally, he's not there to transfer the call.
	And so there is, as of yet, no Congressman Schiff.
	If perchance he should call, we will, with permission of Richard Sauter, and not otherwise, interrupt what we're doing and take a word or two from the Congressman.
	Now, I've got an article here, just faxed to me.
	It is typical of what is appearing all over the nation now, with the exception of Roswell.
	This is from the Fresno Bee, and it's simply titled, Roswell Records from 47 Crash Missing.
	So, headlining around the rest of the country would appear to be the fact that Congressman Schiff is saying, in essence, of course you found nothing.
	Two years of records that would have given us what we want to know are missing.
	They were permanent records, they were not to be destroyed, and they were without authorization, as you heard Sam Friedman say.
	So, how they can conclude this means nothing, except yet another cover-up, Uh, is beyond me.
	And here's another fax that just came in on it.
	Dear Art, this sounds just like the Air Force statement released last summer stating that the recovered cramp was a listening balloon.
	Project Mogul, they called it.
	I believe the records are in storage somewhere.
	And get so angry at some people in power who think we're so stupid as to actually believe this rubbish.
	And somebody else who asks, well then, if all of the records were destroyed, just exactly where did the information come from that said it was a surveillance balloon?
	That too is a damn good question, isn't it?
	Right now, to our main guest for the evening, he is Richard Sauter.
	He's been on before.
	He's written, he's got a brand new book out called, Underground Bases and Tunnels, What is the Government Trying to Hide?
	And he's also making a few moves that I think you're going to find very interesting, and we're going to ask him a little bit about the earthquake cycle.
	He's actually a PhD, so technically he is Dr. Richard Soder.
	And I guess, uh, I guess perhaps we ought to see if we should be calling him that.
	Dr. Sautter, are you there?
	I'm right here.
	Uh, you know, I never realized you were a PhD and I've had your bios and all this time I probably should have been calling you doctor.
	There you go.
	All right, Dr. Sautter.
	Um, before we get into the, the strict topic of underground tunnels and bases, um, We've had many times a fellow named Gordon Michael Scallion on, I presume you've heard him?
	Sure.
	Okay, there is a present series of quakes going on, and this relates to your work.
	In the 7.0 range, that would appear, or better, the latest being in Chile at 11 o'clock Eastern Time, Gordon Michael Scallion predicts that such a series, as is going on right now, Well, I can tell you what I think.
	I understand and I'm not an earth scientist.
	earthquake in the Palm Springs area.
	We could be on the verge of such an earthquake if all of this is correct.
	I'm trying to get through to Gordon Michael Scalion, but I thought I would ask you what
	you think.
	Well, I can tell you what I think.
	I understand and am not an earth scientist.
	I don't have any type of degree in geology or a related field.
	Indeed, it does seem to be true that there has been an increasingly large number of earthquakes
	around the planet in recent years.
	Gordon Michael Scalion may well be right.
	I don't know.
	I guess the proof will be in the pudding and we'll all stand by and if it goes by one day
	in a big way, we'll say, uh-huh.
	Yeah, the trouble is... Allen was right.
	Yeah, that's right, but the proof would be in the rubble.
	No doubt.
	And I guess the thing to do would be to scramble and hope that you're on top of the pile of rubble, and not on the bottom.
	I guarantee you I'm not going to make a move to Southern California any time soon.
	Underground bases and tunnels.
	What in the world got you interested in such a thing anyway?
	Well, you know, it was a combination of factors, actually.
	I moved to New Mexico several years ago.
	I'm now in Flagstaff, Arizona.
	But I moved there to study political science and pursue a PhD in politics.
	When I arrived in New Mexico, I heard people mostly in the ufology community, but not exclusively.
	Talking about alleged underground tunnels here in the West and underground installations.
	Well, this was a pretty new topic to me.
	I hadn't heard much about this in the South.
	I was born and raised in the South and spent most of my life there.
	And so I perked up my ears.
	It was certainly a very curious topic.
	I was fascinated but just inundated by my As I got down the road a few years and began researching my
	dissertation, my schedule had a little more flexibility and I was able to begin doing
	some research looking into this question.
	As I began to accumulate information I realized indeed there was quite a bit of documentation
	on the open public record by the way that established a factual basis at least in broad
	outline.
	Looks like we just lost our guest.
	Sorry about that.
	Occasionally it occurs.
	We just get a disconnect and so we're going to have to get back hold of him.
	He is Richard Sauter.
	I will take this opportunity to take a break and we'll get hold of him during the break.
	Uh, we just about covered his early academic career in a moment.
	Much more about underground bases and tunnels.
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	Alright, well, I'll bet you, I'll just, you stupid phone company, they do that every now and then.
	It's like a reset, or maybe they decided they didn't like what we were talking about.
	Anyway, we got a quick disconnect.
	Let's take just a second out and expose the phone companies' underground tunnels and bases.
	I bet they've got some, don't they, Richard?
	Oh, they absolutely do, Art.
	It's where they put secret installations to cut people talking about this kind of stuff off in the middle of a sentence.
	It's enough to make you a little paranoid, isn't it?
	Yeah, as a matter of fact, AT&T does have underground installations all across the country.
	Most of them in isolated rural areas.
	Actually in my book I give a location of three of them, one in New Jersey, one in Georgia,
	one in Kansas.
	There is another one here in New Mexico which is just north of the little town of Quemado
	which is out in Katrin County, just a couple of miles north of Quemado.
	And what is it you think they do in these?
	Well I can tell you what I've been told.
	You know I was asking this in jest to get vengeance on them but there is really something
	to it, huh?
	That's absolutely true.
	From Trump's underground installation.
	Evidently it dates back to the 1960s when they were building the White House.
	And I think it's a good thing that they're doing it.
	I think it's a good thing that they're doing it.
	I'm concerned about the communication system being disabled by a nuclear strike because of electromagnetic pulse.
	A lot of what we do that's underground uses that same reasoning, doesn't it?
	A certain amount of it.
	Not all of it, by any means, but some of it.
	Particularly what the Defense Department is doing, or at least that is what one would gather from the documentation that has been put out for public consumption.
	The AT&T facilities, I understand, have living and survival headquarters.
	If what I've been told is true, it's a bit on the Spartan side.
	Figures.
	If the rest of us fly, at least the phone company survives, huh?
	Yeah, you know, that's ironic.
	I once was asked that in a talk, as if, well, Richard, you know, don't you want the phones to work in the event of a nuclear strike?
	And I said, well, I suppose, but isn't it awfully ironic?
	Uh, that, uh, you know, I would be dead and my phone would still be functioning.
	So what would be the point?
	Uh, of even leaving a message on your answering machine?
	Yes, maybe God would answer in your absence, I don't know.
	Yeah.
	Um, but sure, AT&T has these, uh, I've been told of, of another one, uh, in some correspondence I received, uh, from, uh, one of the many people who've written me Over the last few months, and by the way, I do appreciate those letters and cards.
	Some of them have come from your listeners, by the way.
	That's good.
	And after my first appearance on your show, I received a whole flood of mail and some are very interesting, by the way.
	I do appreciate it.
	I do read it and I answer most of it.
	Some of it is on the crackpot side, I'll be truthful.
	Well, there is an element of that in underground bases and tunnels.
	Now, as a matter of fact, the beginning of your book really addresses that.
	The UFO community imagines or believes there to be a connection.
	How do you address that?
	Well, I address it in the only way I know, which is to say that I don't know, and I can't prove the question one way or the other.
	What I have demonstrated at length and in great detail is that there are many underground installations, including from what my research has been able to divulge, a good number of them secret or classified, their locations unknown, the agencies that operate them are unknown, how they were built and to what purpose exactly they're put also remain unknown.
	So I'm willing to entertain the possibility that some of these more unusual stories that you will hear when you read the UFO literature, and God knows I've read my own fair amount of it, some of these stories may have a kernel of truth in them.
	On the other hand, not knowing more about what goes on underground, it's hard to say one way or the other.
	Now, I have talked with a number of people now, who have alleged to have been abducted and taken to
	underground facilities.
	They may be telling the truth about being abducted and being taken to underground facilities.
	Now, whether or not they were abducted by these alleged extraterrestrials or aliens,
	be they as a reptilian, a human, or a little grey persuasion, is another story.
	I know that there are many techniques of mind control, some of them which your average hypnotist is familiar with
	and may be very adept at, which can induce in people a frame of mind, especially
	under frightening or unusual circumstances, which may make them believe that something is happening to
	them, which is not happening in precisely the way
	uh... that they are led to believe that it is a correct all right let's uh...
	let's leave the ufo aspect of it is that even if the audience doesn't want me to
	take calls i want to ask you about something very real
	it's probably called project harb yet of alaska
	and uh... i have photographs of the antenna arrays and it's incredible absolutely incredible
	HAARP is getting ready to go.
	It has two stated scientific objectives that I am aware of.
	One is to irradiate the ionosphere for a really an unstated purpose, perhaps to see if they can actually affect the ionosphere with tremendous amounts of radiation.
	That's one.
	Two is to look for previously unmapped or unknown or secret Take your choice.
	Underground, tunnels, and or bases.
	In other words, to focus in on the Earth.
	Is that your understanding?
	Yes.
	As a matter of fact, I am, uh, and there's a third purpose which I'll briefly touch on, too.
	But I'm holding a little clipping here from Aviation Week and Space Technology.
	Uh, there's September 26, 1994 issue.
	1996-1994 issue, on page 11, they had a little one paragraph entry with the heading of Weird
	Science. And it deals with precisely this, Project TARP, and they say that it would provide
	earth-penetrating tomography over most of the northern hemisphere. Such a capability
	would permit the detection in precise location of tunnels, shelters, and underground hardened
	military facilities. So here is a verification from a very mainstream establishment journal
	that indeed that is exactly one of the purposes. Now I want to come back to that in a minute,
	but I want to touch on the third purpose which I have heard discussed and bandied about in
	some other circles which appears to date in the process of charging up the ionosphere
	with this incredible amount of radio frequency electromagnetic energy. The intent seems to
	be to repel a layer of radioactively charged particles that is slowly settling closer and
	closer to the earth's surface.
	This layer, as I understand it, occurred in the 1950s and 1960s when there was high-altitude nuclear testing by the United States.
	In particular, I'm not sure if the Soviets did.
	You're saying, you're really saying they're trying to repair something they essentially broke?
	I think so.
	I think this may be one of the unstated objectives.
	The other objectives, I believe, are real as well.
	Before we get to those, suppose this were to continue, and this layer that you're talking about, which I don't understand... I don't either.
	I don't have an advanced degree in the hard sciences.
	I'm a social scientist.
	So, there's no way to know for you to comment on what would occur should this layer not be repaired?
	Well I know that radioactive isotopes, especially long-lived variety, are very poisonous and
	you wouldn't want them in your immediate environment. So if indeed this is the case and there is
	a layer of some sort or a band of some sort of highly radioactive particles which were
	put there 20 or 30 years ago by the high altitude nuclear explosion set off by the Pentagon,
	and if that's slowly coming closer to the Earth's surface where it could circulate in
	the atmosphere and conceivably be breathed by us and get into our drinking water and
	into the plants that we consume for food, then that could be a major public health crisis.
	It absolutely would be, and you are the first one I have ever heard mention this.
	Well, I have heard this mentioned in the alternative press, and if it's true, Then that's a very serious situation.
	It bears looking into.
	Richard, I'm getting to the point, frankly, where I doubt a very great deal of what the government says on all of these topics.
	Let me tell you something.
	As I said, I'm a social scientist.
	I have a bachelor's degree in sociology, a master's in Latin American studies, and a PhD in political science.
	I took a research methods seminar at the University of Florida when I was doing my master's degree
	and in the middle of a discussion one day, one of my fellow graduate students expressed
	dismay at a certain United States government project which had involved, I think, a fair
	amount of deception and fraud.
	The professor stopped the class.
	Everything was so silent you could hear a pin drop and he said, Don't ever forget that
	governments lie.
	The United States government is a government and it lies too.
	I mean there simply is no question about it, going back it seems as far as 1947, I don't
	for one second buy this whole Roswell business.
	I mean I think it is an insult for them to come out and say, well no, the government
	The story essentially sticks.
	The balloon story.
	Well, because these permanent, not-to-be-destroyed records covering two full... Benjamin Franklin, after the, um, after the, uh, convention that wrote the United States Constitution adjourned, uh, he came out and, uh, there was a woman, if I remember the story correctly, who asked him and some of the other delegates how it went.
	And he said something in effect of, well, madam, we've just given you a republic.
	If you can keep it.
	Well, that's right.
	And so that is correct.
	One of the things I addressed in my book in the first few pages, by the way, is from the standpoint of the extreme secrecy.
	And I might remind the audience that researching this book was not easy.
	I hope it's easy to read.
	That was my intent.
	The work behind it was by no means always so easy.
	But one of the things I say is this type of secrecy, especially coming from the military, in the case of Roswell, in the case of the underground installations, which are very real, by the way, and which are all over the country, does not inspire confidence.
	And in fact, I know from my studies in Latin American politics that it is just this climate of secrecy And more right after the news.
	associated with a trend towards military rule.
	All right. On that note, Richard, and we also have to be brief because...
	We'll come back to this question.
	All right, good. We'll come back to it. Indeed, we will.
	And more right after the news.
	This is Dreamland.
	And we'll be back in just a moment.
	Underground bases and tunnels.
	you We'll get back to that in just a moment.
	A lot of you have no idea that a bill has been introduced in the U.S.
	Senate that would get rid of the existing money we've got.
	Actually get rid of it.
	Substitute a new, multicolored money.
	Would make two forms of money.
	One you use inside the country, another outside the country.
	Now, two-tiered money systems generally are created by governments.
	Two years old.
	So yes, I was involved.
	It was a kiddie story.
	Back now to Dr. Richard Sautter.
	Dr. Sautter, are you there?
	Um, I got a call saying that one more word about the AT&T secret bases and tunnels and the entire show was going to go off, so I guess we can't talk about that anymore.
	Just kidding.
	You must be.
	Yeah, just kidding.
	I would like to follow up with this Project Heart information we discussed before the break.
	Alright, may I ask one question that relates to it?
	Doctor, if they're not In other words, I don't know how far into the earth they can look, but obviously at the higher levels of government.
	We know already where the tunnels are that we have dug.
	We know where the bases are underground that we have created.
	So, therefore, what are we... what are we looking for?
	Well, I would like to address that.
	First of all, I think the important thing to remember is I think that the federal government we have is not monolithic.
	I have heard it described by one observer as the most complex human institution ever devised.
	For that reason I don't rule out, for example, the possibility that given the extreme compartmentalization
	and the extreme degree of secrecy for covert projects in the military, the intelligence
	agencies and the military industrial complex, that there may be agencies, organizations,
	corporations who may have made or be making their own tunnel shelters or underground facilities
	that they may with some degree of success have kept secret from others.
	Now this would then bring up the problem of detention.
	If you had a suspicion that your rival agency, even within the Pentagon, may have one or two or more secret facilities, the locations and functions of which they're disguising from you, you might have a motive to find them out.
	Now, if I understand the Air Force And the Army are the agencies behind the Project Heart.
	Is that correct?
	That's my understanding, yes.
	Okay.
	This leaves the Navy conspicuously out of the equation.
	Why?
	Presumably the Navy might have some interest in this information as well.
	I have heard the scuttlebutters that you will hear in the corridors at New Age and UFO conventions and other places Uh, that the Navy is actually a very major player in the UFO field and also in the underground excavation and construction business.
	Albeit, they keep a very low profile and are not identified in the public eye with such activity.
	If there's any truth at all to that, then it may be that the Air Force and the Army feel that the Navy uh... has a secretive
	uh... that it is keeping from them that they would like to find out
	the i don't make the assumption at all when i read this
	that project harps uh... tunnel and underground installation locating
	uh... capability designed exclusively to detect
	such facilities and installations in places like uh...
	russia or russia or korea
	Of course.
	or China for example, though I'm sure those places are locations where the Navy and the
	Air Force will look very carefully.
	Well I can imagine they would want to know about such things and that would make such
	a project understandable.
	Of course.
	One other aspect of this that I really want to ask about.
	Yes.
	I know everybody is going to sigh, but to me Richard, the weather has seemed odd to
	the point of, and I know we have very short mortal lives and we get a very short look
	at the, we don't see the larger scheme, but it's too hot.
	It's just too hot in too many parts of the country.
	Weather patterns seem to have changed.
	Could HAARP have any effect on the weather?
	I'm pretty sure it could, as I understand it from what I've read in the alternative press, including some of the information that's come out through PACE, for example, the Planetary Association for Clean Energy out of Ottawa, Canada.
	Dr. Mikulski is the director of that, and by the way, would be an excellent guest for this show.
	Through my readings in PACE and other alternative Media outlets.
	It seems to me that, indeed, Hubble has the capability to lift, physically lift, through electrical, through electrically charging huge, huge areas of the atmosphere, physically lift vast areas of the atmosphere.
	else, but it's certainly going to change the circulation of wind, for example, in the upper
	atmosphere, which manifestly does influence climate. So I'm inclined to say that with
	my own informed way of reading, that it is every likelihood of altering the climate.
	Alright, well you wouldn't, it seems to me, intentionally try and screw up the climate.
	So what about the... One wouldn't think so, but I don't know what we're dealing with here.
	But what about the possibility that they recognize they, that there is something wrong with the weather, as you suggested there was with this magnetic portion of the atmosphere, and that there is an attempt to fix it?
	Maybe so.
	And if that's the case, I hope it works.
	But, you know, it's been said that once Pandora's box is open, it's very hard to get out.
	I can now divulge the absolute truth of this.
	In my previous lifetime, when I was negative seven years old, I went to Roswell and ate the record.
	i think that the parker clearly uh...
	i think when the hell with either small child at the time also are not born
	essentially lost my age of forty years old
	and you know and even propose of records in nineteen forty seven
	were destroyed by somebody for future profit but something that is not yet even begun to germinate uh...
	an interest in your photos is also preposterous
	Yes, well, I think the writer of the facts displays a refreshing knife tech in thinking that people like Art Bell As powerful as you are, I would have access to secret files in the Pentagon and would be able to go in and willy-nilly wipe out entire years full of files.
	I'm impressed.
	Richard, I can't even get Congressman Schiff on the phone.
	What are you talking about?
	I'm not powerful.
	But I am endlessly curious.
	I would like to take some calls from people.
	They've got a lot of questions about Underground, and by the way, everybody, you're welcome to fax those questions in, too.
	So let's pause for a second here, and we'll come to the phone when we go back.
	When we come back.
	If you would like to fax me, it's area code 702727.
	8-4-9-9-84-99.
	If you would like to call, the only number not mentioned is the east of the Rockies line.
	That's 1-8-4-9-84-99.
	800-825-5033.
	Back in a moment.
	We all know that information is what it's all about, and for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
	It's called UFO Facts World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter pack.
	They do so by calling absolutely fresh flowers.
	That's all they do.
	They grow miniature carnations and they ship them directly from the flower farm to you.
	Now what that means is you get a lot of flowers, zillions and zillions of flowers.
	You get more than you get from anybody else who advertises they sell flowers.
	Whether it's a florist or one of the 800 numbers or 900 numbers or whatever they are, nobody, nobody Measures up to absolutely fresh flowers.
	Here is the bill in a nutshell.
	$39.99.
	Not much money.
	You get the flowers.
	You get next day delivery by FedEx.
	They're knocking on the door next day.
	Anywhere.
	New S of A.
	A little personalized note from you.
	Some flour, a little bit of all of that for $39.95.
	You're gonna order flours.
	Don't waste your time and money with anybody else.
	The number to call 24 hours a day, including now, is 1-800-562-6438.
	Are you writing?
	1-800-562-6438 Are you writing?
	1-800-562-6438 Back now to Richard Sauter.
	Richard?
	You there?
	Yeah, Richard.
	Let's take a, start interspersing a few, uh, phone calls in here, okay?
	Sounds good.
	Before we do that, why don't I give people the 800 number where they can order my book?
	Sure.
	Uh, the title of my book is Underground Bases and Tunnels.
	What is the government trying to hide?
	You may refer to it as Underground Bases and Tunnels.
	The number is 1-800-497- That's 1-800-497-6646.
	And it might be added there are 50 pages of photographs and illustrations in the book.
	I have a lot of illustrations, diagrams, photos that you will find absolutely fascinating, I guarantee you.
	And I think in the next edition of the book I will have even more.
	I also have plenty of footnotes and documentation in the back of the book.
	For those who want to delve more deeply into this and follow the paper trail for themselves, there is one to be followed and to be delved into, and the documentation I provide will start you on your way.
	Alright, to the phones.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Sautter.
	Doctor, hi.
	Yes.
	Uh, doctor.
	Where are you, ma'am, by the way?
	I'm in Albuquerque.
	Oh, Albuquerque.
	Yes.
	Home of congressman, missing congressman Schiff.
	Um, might we ask, before you launch your question, how is your Albuquerque newspaper handling this?
	Uh, well, I didn't receive the paper today because I wasn't here, so I don't know.
	Alright, fair, fair answer.
	Um, anyway, your question.
	Uh, a few years ago, back in the 70s, I read a book called The Hollow Earth.
	Yes.
	And I was wondering, are you familiar with that?
	And if that might have anything to do, you're talking about underground bases and things, if maybe they're trying to find out information about that.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Sure.
	The Hollywood Theory has been around for many years.
	It's had many different proponents and and a number of different formulations.
	Essentially, it holds that the Earth is hollow, that there is an outer shell of maybe several hundred miles,
	or maybe a couple thousand miles of thickness, and that inside there is another habitable realm,
	much as we know on the surface, with some kind of internal sun.
	On the face of it, it seems like a nice bit of science fiction.
	I don't presume to know the truth of this matter, not having ever been inside the earth and not knowing
	anyone who has.
	Nevertheless, wow, I like... I don't disprove it out of hand, but there's no way that I can prove or disprove such a notion.
	I like the part about the underground sauna.
	I'd not heard that one before.
	Oh, sure.
	If you look into the Hollow Earth literature to any extent, you'll run across that idea.
	Now, as to whether the underground construction activity of the federal government and other organizations I don't know.
	I have heard and been told that some of this underground excavation and tunneling is designed to find, detect, explore other tunnel systems and other underground installations made by previous technological civilizations on the Earth.
	Well, I guess it's a two-parter.
	of years before this present technological civilization, which according to these stories
	is not the first technological civilization, having been preceded by others, which we now
	give a name such as Atlantis and Lemuria.
	I've got a dumb question for you.
	What would happen, well I guess it's a two-parter.
	First of all, what is the deepest tunnel going down, hole I guess you'd call it, that anybody
	has that you're aware of, Doug?
	Well the mining industry for example in South Africa, their gold mines are much less than
	three miles underground.
	Three miles?
	Yeah.
	Well that's still not very far is it?
	Well it's...
	Pretty far if you're down there.
	Well, it is, but I mean in terms of the... In terms of a hollow Earth, no.
	In terms of a hollow Earth, it is certainly nowhere near 1 or 2 or 3 or 4,000 miles.
	When you think about the Earth's diameter being, I think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000, 7,500 miles.
	3 miles is barely scratching the surface.
	What happens when you get down 3 miles?
	Are there any changes that are notable?
	It gets hotter.
	But again, that depends on the local geology.
	If you're in a volcanically active area, it's going to get hotter sooner as you approach a magma, an area where there's magma, for example.
	My understanding is because of the pressure of the overburden, the rock and soil, that it tends to be hot.
	Hot.
	There's been a recent theory, scientists speculated, that the Earth ...did not have a magma core, but rather was actually solid cold iron, roughly.
	You know, I would be willing to concede that I have read some people's theories which say that magma really does stay closer to the surface, and that much as what you just said, the Earth is not molten in the center, but is hotter towards the surface in that its composition and the thermal characteristics change as one goes through
	the various strata and layers.
	I don't presume to know, and I don't know anyone who has, so to speak, taken a dive
	straight through the Earth.
	Do we have available to us technology that would allow us to literally burrow into the
	Earth, or I don't want to say bore into the Earth, but maybe lasers, maybe some sort of
	burrowing machine of some sort?
	Would there be a way, in essence, to start down and just keep going?
	Sure.
	Oh, really?
	You could do that with the nuclear tunnel boring technology that was developed, at least in concept, at Los Alamos in the 1970s.
	Wow.
	It essentially involves a tunnel boring device which is powered I don't know.
	Finally by a nuclear reactor which provides the heat for the device to melt this way for
	the rock and soil.
	At about what rate?
	Well, you know, I don't know precisely.
	The figure that I saw cited in the literature that I've examined would lead me to believe
	that it would be at a rate of about 300 feet per day.
	But the beauty of this thing is you could just set this puppy to working and that point
	and it would go and go and go and go and go.
	Why hasn't somebody done it?
	Maybe they have.
	Oh, that's a good point.
	Maybe they have.
	The rumor that you were here again on the fringes of ufology, and which has been whispered to me, uh, instructive confidence, uh, on the... Wait a minute.
	Wait a minute, Richard.
	Hold it.
	I know good hooks when I hear them.
	Exactly.
	Stay right there.
	We're at the bottom of the hour.
	We'll be back.
	A rumor whispered to him in the strictest confidence.
	Coming up next, right here on this radio station.
	You're listening to Dreamland from the high desert.
	I'm Art Bell.
	Don't move.
	Issues and ideals, conversation and controversy.
	They just recently found out, I just told my mom, so she was shocked, very shocked.
	I think parents have a big influence on whether or not their children smoke.
	Because even if the parent says that they don't agree with it, it really doesn't hold a lot of water.
	When you can say, I don't agree with you smoking, but when you light up five minutes later, it doesn't hold a lot of water.
	Smoking.
	You're smart enough to stop.
	A public service message from this station and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
	Ladies and gentlemen, here with their latest smash hit, that demolition duo, Vince and Larry.
	Got in my pickup with a song in my heart.
	Mama said, son, buckle up before you start.
	I said, why bother?
	I'm just going into town.
	I didn't buckle up.
	Now I'm feeling run down.
	This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
	We broadcast at this time. Please do not call.
	From the Kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Greenland with Art Bell.
	Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	1-800-618-TALK.
	First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
	702-727-1222.
	Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
	The only kind of information that there is, that there are in reality some of these nuclear-powered
	727-1295.
	tunneling machines in use and that work making tunnels here and there.
	Now, this is the kind of extremely soft information which I have been very careful to keep out of my book, Underground Bases and Tunnels.
	Um, I am not very fond of this kind of information, which, by the way, This may not have anything to do with UFOs.
	It may be our very own government.
	That government we just spent talking a while ago about that might not tell us the whole story.
	Exactly.
	And in fact, there was an excellent two-part series of articles entitled The Web of Darkness in Perceptions Magazine by Richard Boylan.
	It's based out of California, about the secret government, the shadow government.
	He went into detail, and it was interesting to me, as someone with a PhD in political science, that he listed agencies of the federal government that I had never heard about and didn't have the slightest idea existed.
	Some of the more obvious ones would be the CIA, the National Security Agency, the FBI,
	the IRS, FEMA, which is the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Reserve, NASA,
	the Military Intelligence Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office, and others.
	There are dozens of them.
	In the aggregate, they do make up a shadow government or secret government, which does
	not play by the rules, by the checks and balances that were so carefully set out by the founding
	fathers in the U.S. Constitution.
	Sad to say, that is the state of affairs in which we find ourselves in 1995.
	All right, to the phones.
	You're on the air, and I understand you wish to remain anonymous, but tell us at least where you're calling from, please.
	From Florida.
	Florida, all right.
	I'm there this weekend, and I'm almost afraid to say anymore except that I have three close relatives who were rather high officials with American Telephone, Telegraph, I worked in a thing called the Filter Center in the Long Lines Division of AT&T.
	One was in construction, one was in personnel, and one was in technology.
	Two of them individually have explained to me in the past that there was a lot of underground construction, that all military communications during World War II went through the Filter Center.
	Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois mostly was where the centers were.
	And that after World War II, other exotic things went through this filter center until the FTS, or the Federal Telephone Service, was built up more.
	There was quite a bit more to it, but individually, two of them also confirmed that there were some wild things going on at Roswell, but it was some years later.
	And that's about all I can say about it at this point.
	But there is construction that was done, was underground, quite a ways underground, a lot of communication underground.
	I was in Denver area last week and one of the facilities I mentioned in my book as a
	possible location for an underground installation is Table Mountain, which is just north of
	Boulder, about 10 or 15 miles off of Route 36.
	If you're from the Denver-Boulder area, you may know what I'm referring to.
	This show airs in that area, doesn't it, Art?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	This mountain, which in New Mexico and Arizona would be called more of a mesa, I believe, it's a very flat, low, long, flat hill, is run by the Commerce Department.
	And once you approach it and get off of Route 36, There's a sign which very prominently at the top says Commerce Department.
	And then it says under that in smaller letters National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, National Telecommunications Research Institute.
	And it also has a reference to some kind of gravity observation or gravity research.
	All under the auspices of the Commerce Department.
	And there's an antenna field on top of this mesa, or turtle mountain, and if you drive
	around on the backside, and there is a periphery, a dirt road that runs all around the periphery,
	on the backside there are two huge microwave dishes, they're very large.
	One pointed straight up, evidently to a geostationary satellite, and the other pointed, which seems
	to be due east.
	So evidently there is a electronic link from...
	Hold it, Richard.
	A geostationary satellite, by its very nature, has to be over the equator.
	Well, I don't know where the hell this is pointing.
	So then that's quite a mystery, because you see... It's pointing straight up.
	Uh-uh.
	That's not pointed at any geostationary satellite, then.
	Well then, thank you for correcting me, Will.
	Then I guess the question is, What is it pointing at?
	It's pointing straight up.
	Damn good.
	The other antenna is pointing through east.
	It is a very large dish.
	Boy, I don't know, it's probably easily 60 feet across.
	A very, very large one.
	My guess is there's something underground there.
	In any event, that is all run by the Commerce Department.
	So maybe we maybe ought to have run run Brown on the show Or Alameda Avenue, and it is between the two and there is
	an underground facility there when you drive around You'll even notice the odd air vent
	Or exhaust back coming out from underground if you look closely through the fence as well as some large
	conspicuous antennas of various kinds
	So yes, there's more and there's more underground in In Colorado than the Norad Center at Cheyenne Mountain,
	okay?
	I want to move you on to another fascinating topic sure Richard
	If you could go into a volcano right and begin just going down
	Like pad boon toward the center of wherever you were headed, right?
	How far could you probably go?
	I mean, how deep do volcanoes go when they're inactive?
	What possibilities are there for descent?
	They had this little robot they tried to descend into one recently, and it tripped and fell.
	It couldn't get up.
	They had to rescue it.
	But it's a good line of discussion.
	What about volcanoes?
	You know, you're asking the wrong man.
	As I said, I don't really have any substantial expertise in earth sciences, and I don't have a formal academic background.
	I'm afraid I'll have to pass on that one.
	Okay.
	One would imagine them as possible ways, though, of reaching a deep underground location.
	Well, I will say this.
	In an area where you have extinct volcanoes, you would certainly have lava tubes that would have had all of the lava evacuated out of them as the volcano ceased erupting.
	Precisely.
	Because in New Mexico, for example, we have those.
	types of tubes and also other areas here in the west where you have the empty tubes after
	the magma stops flowing, the tubes empty out. So you do have these passageways. That there
	is no question about whatever.
	And they are associated with extinct volcanoes.
	Alright, well my question is how deep they go, and I can answer that.
	That's right.
	Alright, well then back, uh, let me back up a little bit.
	We were talking about boring directly down into the ground.
	Now, scientists have a lot of natural curiosity, and politicians have lots of paranoia.
	Right.
	And we went through the Cold War.
	just seems to me that if there's a way to burrow down with nuclear technology
	that either we've done it or they're neglectful for not having tried one of
	the two so you agree with that my best guess would be that there could easily
	be these nuclear-powered tunneling machines that are being being secretly employed however
	i cannot document that now i i know richard it's on the edge but i mean what
	about all these reports of home in towels uh... here in the valley but i think we talked
	about a last time a lot of
	i know guys sank a porch i think i told you the story and it home so badly he had to tear the damn thing down
	yeah yeah you know that the next day in uh...
	with the street but later book which is entitled breakthrough
	which is fascinating by the way I recommend it to the audience.
	You should check it out.
	He and a friend were sitting in his family's cabin in upstate New York one afternoon or morning a number of years ago.
	And suddenly, blood started pouring out of his friend's forehead.
	Actually, the forehead was bleeding through the pores.
	Very unusual.
	I actually spoke with Whitley about this incident on the phone, actually he mentioned it to me in the course of very graciously consenting to provide a blurb for the cover of the second printing of my book.
	I'm inclined to believe that could easily be due to his friend being in the path of
	an ultrasonic beam, perhaps being employed for subterranean excavation in the near vicinity
	of where Whitley Strieber was living at the time.
	I do, in my book, indicate that the Defense Nuclear Agency targeted upstate New York as
	one of the areas where they wanted to build very deep underground military installations
	back in the 1970s.
	And they may have done it.
	One of the technologies which has been explored by the military industrial complex over the
	last quarter century for boring tunnels underground is precisely using ultrasound to pulverize
	the rock.
	With ultrasound to pulverize rock, it could fairly easily rupture a capillary membrane
	as well.
	Absolutely.
	All right, back to the lines.
	And the first time caller line, you're on the air with Dr.
	Richard Sauter.
	Hi.
	Hello there.
	Yeah, Art.
	Yes.
	Listen, you guys are talking about subjects here, and as the government, you're opening the field up, and as the government hears you, they're going to constantly be watching and hearing you guys.
	So who cares?
	Well, we've heard something called the First Amendment.
	You don't want my people to hear about what's going on, because if you spill the beans, there's going to be a big thing here.
	Well, so who cares?
	I mean, as Richard just pointed out, there's this thing called the First Amendment, and we can talk about and explore areas and will on this program exactly like this.
	If some beans get spilled, then too bad.
	Because I've been affiliated with the military, and I'll tell you right now, when you start getting too close to information, then all of a sudden people get nervous.
	I don't know, but for his edification, if he's in the military, then he took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign.
	And let me just read you one sentence from that Constitution which this gentleman and every other person affiliated with the military has sworn to uphold.
	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances.
	And if he or others in the military does not believe in this article, then they ought to disavow their oath and leave that institution.
	Well, I'd like to add, too, that also applies to the phone company.
	We'll be right back.
	You don't have to put up with it.
	Well, I know a lot of you do, but you don't have to.
	What am I talking about?
	Hard, foul water.
	Back to Dr. Sautter.
	Doctor, are you there?
	I'm right here, Art.
	All right, let's try and pay a lot of attention to the phones, if we can.
	Before we do that, why don't I give out the 800 number so people can order this book?
	All right, go ahead.
	It's to order a copy of Underground Faces and Tunnels, 1-800-497-6646.
	tunnel, 1-800-497-6646. That's 1-800-497-6646, and we'll try to get that in again before
	the hour's over. I'm also at our...
	How much? Doctor, how much?
	Well, it sells for $13.95 plus the shipping and handling charge.
	Alright.
	I might also add that since the last time I was on your show, I've relocated from the Albuquerque area to northern Arizona.
	And for those who would like to write to me with information, I'd be glad to hear from you.
	You may do that by writing to Richard Sauter, S-A-U-D-E-R, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
	That's Richard Fowler, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
	And if you don't mind, Art, will you get that address on once more before we close the hour?
	And that way people can contact me.
	All right, good.
	I'm sure they will want to.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sautter.
	Hi.
	Hello.
	Where are you, sir?
	I'm in Ohio.
	All right.
	The question I had was, and this may be a question that you covered earlier in the show and I didn't catch, on a TV show I saw on NBC they had an abductee on there and he was taken to an underground base and some information that we got while the abductee was down there is that The aliens and the military were both getting ready for something, but he did not know what that something was.
	Could you shed any light on that?
	Dr. Sautter?
	Well, you know, there are an increasing number of these stories filtering out now of people reportedly being abducted and taken to underground installations.
	The story seems to have three basic forms in which it appears.
	In one type of scenario, a person is abducted by special United States military forces and taken underground, and the only beings that they see appear to be terrestrial humans working for the United States military.
	In another formulation, Uh, the only beings that they see from beginning to end are the little greys and or reptilians.
	And in yet a third formulation, uh, in a third form, they interact with both, uh, seeming terrestrial humans, uh, in the employ of or members of the United States military, and they also see a variety of, of, uh, extraterrestrial alien beings, including little greys and or reptilians and or extraterrestrial human
	Now what you have just related about this Coming
	Whatever it is. It's the alien military getting ready for I Can't say anything about because I don't know what it might
	be I can't even prove to you that there are aliens. Have you
	heard any of the same rumors or vibrations? Oh Sure
	I mean, you can even pick this up in Raymond Fowler's books, or the one I'm thinking of, one in particular called The Watchers, where the aliens that this woman, Betty Andrea, I think interacts with, intimate that the Earth is fast approaching some sort of great period of crisis and cataclysm, and it seems that biological life All right.
	That will bring us to another subject, but again, I want to lay on the phones heavily.
	East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
	Hi.
	Call us toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
	Hold it, hold it.
	We're going to have to start all over again.
	We have one fixed fast rule, Owen, and it is that we don't allow you to give your last name on the air.
	So let's begin again.
	And just say this is Owen from where in Minnesota?
	Oh, Marshall's my middle name, so don't worry about it.
	All right.
	Um, from Princeton, Minnesota, home of Connie Mischke, the best starring radio talk show host in Twin Cities.
	There you are.
	Okay, I want to know about, uh, if the Navy's involved in this, there must be a series of underwater lakes and streams.
	Is that true?
	Of course there is.
	I live in the desert.
	If it wasn't for underground water, sir, I couldn't live here.
	Well, I mean... I mean, seriously.
	Is it as diverse as it sounds?
	I mean, is it... Well, yeah, that's a good question, I suppose.
	Is it as diverse as it sounds?
	In other words, is the underground right with large bodies of moving water?
	You know, I can't answer that.
	I will tell you what I have been told.
	including by a couple of, or one ex-Navy personnel, that there are on both coasts of the United States
	underwater submarine bases such that submarines can enter the inland area underwater
	and then once they're inland, surface in underground facilities
	that are immediately adjacent to the coastal areas.
	Now, this is something that, this is something that we've seen in science fiction
	and James Bond type movies and TV programs over the years and I think it exists.
	In fact, I had one gentleman call me when I did another talk show a couple of, three months ago
	and say that Whittier, Alaska is one such place.
	I have never been to Whittier, Alaska, so I can't speak to the truth of that,
	but yeah, it does seem feasible.
	All right, this is one that I'm going to throw at you, Doctor, and it concerns what I have dubbed the quickening.
	Yes.
	There is, whether you want to talk about the weather, geologic activity, sociological activity, crime, jitteriness, there's sort of a building anticipatory Well, let me say that there may be a biological basis for this and we may be sensing what is actually happening on a molecular and cellular level in our bodies.
	I'll give you an example of what I mean.
	There was a little news item that appeared in Albuquerque, New Mexico paper a couple of weeks ago indicating that Biological research teams that have gone into the vicinity of Chernobyl in Russia where the nuclear disaster occurred back in the 1980s have discovered that the mice there have mutated so quickly under the pressure or the impact of the extreme radioactive contamination of their environment that the native rice mice in the Chernobyl region
	Wow!
	have had such a great change in their DNA that their DNA is now different from other related species
	of mice.
	It's so much different that it varies from the DNA of related species of mice
	more than the DNA of mice differs from the DNA of rats.
	Wow!
	That's in 10 years.
	So I would assume that if radioactivity can have that kind of influence
	on the genetic code of mice, that the pervasive radioactivity is having an effect on
	human DNA as well.
	Well, we won't be seeing you for a while.
	Would that... You're probably going to tell me I'm talking to the wrong person, but it seems to me such a change in our DNA would speed up and pervert the process of evolution.
	It could have all kinds of change.
	In other words, we could end up with all sorts of little monstrous creatures that we did not want.
	Well, I think that I will reiterate, as I mentioned earlier in the program, I think that with nuclear technology, that we have opened Pandora's box willy-nilly, and like it or not, we are now dealing with the consequences.
	Do you personally believe the consequences are adding up to something catastrophic down the line?
	Could be.
	Could be between the nuclear contamination and agrochemical contamination, by the way, which is equally as pervasive.
	Some of the agrochemicals are extremely long-lived, very powerful, and by the way, have a profound
	impact on our biochemistry.
	And I think between radioactive contamination and chemical contamination in the environment
	from dioxins and agrochemicals and a whole witch's brew of organic chemicals that have
	been developed for the most part in the 20th century and which are widely used now all
	over the world, that we are surely undergoing a period of great change which is maybe not
	so apparent to us because we're living in the middle of it.
	Doctor, hold on just one moment.
	I would just like to tag that, as we go into a break here, with a very shocking figure that came out about, oh, it was about a half a year ago.
	And that is that since World War II, you all bear this in mind, based on what the doctor said, since World War II, The statistics for cancer for men, non-smoking related incidences of cancer have gone up 300%.
	Repeat, 300%.
	100%.
	This is non-smoking-related cancer.
	Now, gee, what do you think might be causing that?
	North American trading has done a very wise thing.
	You see, not very long ago, we... 9-9.
	Now, be sure... We apparently have a lot of researchers that listen to this program, because we've got some questions from researchers for our guest, Dr. Sauer, coming up in just one moment.
	A GMX is, quite simply, it's hard to beat that.
	Call them now at 1-800-406-0-G-M-X.
	Call now, 1-800-406-0-G-M-X.
	And the following comes from Mark Davenport, who, of course, is himself a researcher.
	And he said, Art, here's a photo of those radio telescopes near Boulder, Colorado.
	I took it myself.
	Mark Davenport.
	And here it is.
	And, by God, they are aimed straight up.
	Now, I know something about geosynchronous satellites.
	They are above the equator.
	They require, from the Boulder area, something in the area of 38 to 40 degrees of angle to look geosynchronous.
	What they could possibly be looking at that would be straight up Beats me.
	But I'll tell you this.
	It's not a geosynchronous satellite.
	There's no question about that.
	So, there you have that.
	And we've got a couple of other very relevant questions.
	One is from John Rhodes, himself a researcher and a previous guest on Greenland.
	Art, please ask Richard about the use of gravity anomaly maps.
	In determining the location of underground facilities.
	I've used them in my own research and found them invaluable.
	Hi to Richard.
	What do you think?
	Sure.
	I think you have to use what works.
	And looking for geophysical anomalies is certainly one way you can approach this.
	I have not to this point.
	I have, being a social scientist, taken a slightly different tack in my research.
	Social scientists are very prone to just going right to the government documents and looking
	for information by training and by inclination.
	That's what we do and that's what I did.
	I dug up quite a lot as it turned out.
	I by no means wish to say that this is the only way to approach the issue.
	There's more than one way to skin a cat.
	Well, there's more than one way to skin a researcher too and if a congressman cannot
	get to the bottom of what happened at Roswell.
	I wonder, you say you've obtained a lot of information from the government.
	They must send it out by accident because... It is.
	I haven't gotten the juicy stuff, believe me.
	I've gotten the believing that someone in their divine wisdom determined that the great
	unwashed masses could get their, you know, focus their eyeballs on if they ever got around
	to ungluing themselves from the L.A. Simpson trial and actually going to a library and
	reading what is there, which is my case.
	So yeah, unfortunately that's the case.
	You've wounded me, Richard.
	I'm a talk show host.
	I do a regular talk show during the week.
	I have to watch the O.J.
	Simpson Show.
	Hey, I listen to your show sometimes.
	I even admit I'm fascinated by it, so that puts me in that category.
	Well, maybe if it's your professional duty... Oh, I'm not going to use that cop-out.
	All right, stay right there, Richard.
	Maybe that's what got me started in it.
	I admit it, I am addicted to the trial, to the drama, to the sort of, I don't know, it's like watching a soap opera, I guess, and you do get addicted, and I admit it freely, and I don't apologize for it, but I understand nevertheless what Richard was saying.
	Okay, break here at the bottom of the hour.
	This is Dreamland, a program...
	...and I'm here to tell you that I'm not a fan of the idea of a free world.
	I'm here to tell you that I'm not a fan of the idea of a free world.
	Show me whistles from 9 a.m.
	to 11 for Radio 3-D-C.
	Whistle to Gordon on his show.
	and what you do. You'll be on the telephone and the fax machine.
	You'll be on the telephone and the fax machine.
	You'll be on the telephone and the fax machine.
	on the cost of doing business.
	And you base everything on that.
	And when somebody comes along arbitrarily and says, that's going to cost you an additional whatever it turns out to be, you've got to get that money somewhere.
	And a lot of people say, well, why doesn't the business owner just eat it?
	He makes too much money anyway.
	It's not fair.
	He should have a business, and I don't.
	There's still a significant number of people, I think, who think that way.
	And it's just not the real world.
	I'm glad you called.
	Thanks for the story.
	We'll take a quick break and be back with more after this.
	You're listening to the EIB Network.
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	This is Talk 102.
	♪♪♪ Okay, so your checking account doesn't bounce and you've
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	You can call Audrey at Bartonville Bank.
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	Call Bartonville Bank, 697-2100, Equal Housing Lender Member, FDIC.
	me.
	At Kroger, we like to say serving you comes first.
	But this week, we're serving you and someone else with our buy one, get one free sale.
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	Kroger.
	Serving you comes first.
	Talk radio, with all the rough edges gone, is kind of like eating all your food without spice.
	It is filling, but it's awfully bland.
	This is Art Bell, host of Coast to Coast AM, where we don't screen calls, so it gets pretty spicy.
	It's live talk in the early morning hours.
	Actually, the middle of the night.
	Right here on Talk 102, Central Illinois' talk radio, every Tuesday through Saturday morning, beginning at 3 a.m.
	Coast to Coast they end here on Top 102.
	Ha!
	How are you?
	Rush Limbaugh, New York, on the EIV Network.
	A little bit about Henry Foster here.
	A man who has performed abortions, but only, only, only in case of rape and incest.
	Not too many of them.
	It's no big deal.
	He also believes in passing out condoms to kids.
	But, you know, he's really good on abstinence.
	You just... you have to marvel at this administration.
	The questions are rather obvious, are they not?
	Did the president appoint Mr. Foster because he knew Foster had committed abortions?
	And to send a signal to the left?
	Or did he appoint him because he didn't know that Foster had committed abortions?
	Note that I didn't say perform.
	And um...
	24 hours a day, Dr. Sauter, are you there?
	I'm right here, Ark.
	Good.
	All right, back to the lines quickly.
	West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
	Hi.
	Yes, thank you very much for taking my call tonight.
	You betcha.
	Where are you?
	I'm calling from Phoenix, Arizona.
	I'm Ariel.
	I used to be with a military intelligence unit down in Pasadena, right next to the Rose Bowl.
	No kidding.
	And we used to take our little tour of duty for annual training out at a little place called Fort Irwin.
	I was wondering if your guest could answer a couple of questions.
	Sir, do you know about Goldstone Regional Deep Space Tracking Station and the Western Command Center?
	And were you aware that President Bush visited the command center at the same time that Gorbachev visited the same Southern California area?
	No, I didn't know that.
	I still am familiar with the Goldstone facility.
	Never visited, but I've read about it.
	What can you tell us about what's there?
	Does this relate in some way to an underground facility?
	Well, I was not privy to the facilities in particular as far as any subterranean, but I was kind of wondering if he had come up on any kind of information in reference to that.
	If you will look at the map, I see the Pahrump is just right across the way from Fort Irwin.
	But you also see that Fort Irwin is surrounded by various military installations and is up on a higher elevation level than the Los Angeles basement.
	I get the feeling that you're trying to tell us something that you can't quite tell us all the way.
	Is that about right?
	Well, this is true.
	There is one thing that the military does do.
	Well, I'm going to leave it right there before you say something you might regret or I push you into it.
	Our basin unit happened to be stationed in the basin.
	We always went up over the mountain to our duty station.
	Pre-assigned locations.
	All right, well I'm going to leave it right there.
	Before you say something you might regret or I push you into it.
	Dr. Sautter, interesting.
	A lot of, I've got a whole stack of facts here.
	People who have been in the military and are probably saying things they ought not be saying about underground bases.
	There really is a lot to this, isn't there?
	There is.
	And even if you can't read all the faxes on the air, since I assume they sent them to you for my feedback, if you don't mind sending them along to me or copies of them to me, I would appreciate it.
	Sure there are.
	There are many, many underground installations, some of them very sophisticated and deep all over the country, and they have been very carefully constructed, very carefully maintained, and kept very secret for the most part.
	All right, here's a question.
	Doctor, here's a question that's right down your alley.
	Sure.
	Um, what would our government do if they fired up the HAARP project, and they found the Earth was riddled with tunnels and underground bases that they didn't know were there before?
	Yeah.
	Would they run to the phone and call the Art Bell Show, or would they simply pull a Roswell and say, nothing of any significance was found underground?
	That comes from Santa Barbara.
	I'd go for option B. I'm not at all inspired by the various cover-ups, not only with respect
	to Roswell, but other things that we've seen in the post-World War II period. I just don't
	believe that we'd be likely to hear much about it. My guess is that there could easily be
	other tunnel systems out there, perhaps of very ancient origin. It's just a smeg. I don't
	It's just a smeg. I... I...
	I hope that you'll have Richard Hovland on soon to talk about his latest findings on the Moon.
	He's been passed a very high-resolution infrared photograph from the Clementine mission, which has now had a very high degree of secrecy clamped on it, but it appears that the Moon is probably riddled with huge artificial structures.
	Not only that, Richard, but...
	And it's been covered up, it's been kept quiet.
	The Pentagon has completely disguised it and still hasn't asked for it.
	Richard, in an earlier space mission, this is science, not speculation,
	they actually, and I forget which mission it was, I'm sorry, but they allowed part of a space vehicle...
	That was not to be used on the return trip.
	Right.
	To go down and smash into the moon.
	I remember that.
	Okay, when it did, I'm told reliably that they heard geologic vibrations that went on for hours and hours, which could only mean that there's something below the moon's surface that we don't know about.
	Yeah, well, it seems that the Clementine infrared photograph penetrated the surface And that indeed, I saw Hoagland's presentation in Los Angeles last month, and it seems that there may be level after level after level of artificial construction going down and down and down on the moon.
	And if that's the case, then the military and NASA certainly know about it, and they are covering all of that up completely, or at least to the extent they can.
	And it's a great shame because it would be the story of this or any centric.
	And we deserve to know, after all, it's our tax dollars that pay for these space probes.
	This kind of thing really kills me.
	It really killed me.
	On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
	Hello.
	Turn your radio off, please.
	Hello.
	Hello.
	Where are you?
	I'm in San Diego.
	San Diego.
	Hi, Dr. Sauter.
	Hi.
	Well, from San Diego, I'm not going to give my name because At a seminar, I ran into a physicist who worked with the Navy.
	He didn't say he was in the Navy.
	But he says the HAARP project, as far as he knows, and he's working on it, is to alter the jet stream.
	So when you were talking about maybe it had something to do with this heat, I recalled what you said.
	I did ask him about the tunnels, and he said he didn't know anything about the tunnels, but he does know they're experimenting with the jet stream.
	Great.
	Dr. Sauter, again, I guess it's not your area, but if one were to alter the path of the jet stream, one would indeed dramatically, or even catastrophically, alter the weather, wouldn't they?
	Yeah, if that's the case, then we could be looking at severe climate change in the near term with perhaps unforeseeable consequences.
	It does not inspire confidence.
	Well, I'm told, and this again is an area I know you're beginning to get into, that our Earth's ecological balance, is it, would you describe it as very tentative?
	We may already be into a period of large change.
	I'll give you an example.
	cause man or plants or trees or animals or all of it to disappear? Would it take a very
	small change or a very large...
	We may already be into a period of large change. I'll give you an example. Starting in the
	popular press, oh about three or four years ago, there was a whole spate of articles about
	the drastic decline of amphibian populations. Nymphs, salamanders, toads, frogs, all over
	the planet.
	Right.
	In every type of climate, at every elevation, on every continent, including here in North America.
	Now, the interesting thing about amphibians is that they are smack dab in the middle of the food chain.
	Now, I submit the food chain is like any other chain.
	You break a link in the middle of it and it essentially becomes a chain that has no power or strength to speak of.
	We're at the top of that chain.
	Will it help us?
	Because when the ecology begins to unravel as it appears it may be doing already, then I would think it's only a matter of decades at the most.
	before there would be very, very large changes, and we may have already begun that process.
	On that note, we'll take a break right here.
	Boy, that's pretty ominous stuff, but I'm not altogether sure that I disagree with it.
	Dr. Richard Sauter is my guest.
	His book, Underground Bases and Tunnels.
	What is the government trying to hide?
	We're going to give his number and address to get the book and all of that sort of thing in just a moment.
	So if you've not yet done it, run and get a pencil, please, right now.
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	You'll want to remember that name if you're a health-conscious individual.
	Why?
	Well, according to Richard Passwater, Ph.D.
	and an authority in the field, you're being bombarded by something called free radicals, toxins, environmental and otherwise, that break down your cells and damaged tissue.
	They cause you to age faster, develop stiff joints and wrinkles sooner than you ought to.
	How can you fight the free radicals that bombard you every day?
	Antioxidants and pycnogenols.
	They're the most effective antioxidant you can buy today.
	To order this amazing new food supplement I'm taking, call Natural Health at 1-800-856-1119.
	These pycnogenols are pharmaceutical grade, made from 95% pure grapeseed extract.
	The purest on the market, giving you the most benefits.
	Call 1-800-856-1119.
	800-856-1119.
	That's 1-800-856-1119.
	We all know that information is what it's all about, and for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
	It's called UFO Facts World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter packed Just the kind of information you've been looking for.
	The latest hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, and more.
	Gleaning information from around the country and around the world, UFO Facts newsletters put together by a staff of professional journalists.
	It's sent to you every month so you get the latest developments on this timely and elusive subject.
	For an introductory price of just $19.95 a year, you'll have access to all this phenomenal information, distilled into an objective and concise newsletter.
	Call 1-800-830-9830.
	Folfax plugs you into the best thinkers and analysts on the subject.
	Find out what's happening from government cover-ups to the nuts and bolts of encounters
	and abductions.
	Call 1-800-830-9830.
	That's 1-800-830-9830.
	Operators are waiting to take a credit card 24 hours a day or send your check for $19.95
	to Box 2757, Anaheim, California.
	The publisher guarantees you'll find UFO facts indispensable or your money back.
	That's 1-800-830-9830.
	Next week on Dreamland, Area 51 expert Glenn Campbell, the guy who probably knows more about Area 51 and has spent more time up there than just about anybody else alive.
	Don't miss that.
	Area 51, or should I say Area 51's Glenn Campbell, that's not quite right, but it's pretty close.
	Not the singer, but the guy who knows about Area 51.
	Now, uh, Dr. Sautter, we promised, so, uh, they've got their pencils ready.
	Underground, bases and tunnels, what's the government trying to hide?
	How do they get it?
	And then, how do they contact you?
	Sure.
	Uh, you can order my book, uh, by dialing 1-800-497-6646.
	1-800-497-6646.
	That is 1-800-497-6646.
	And now, if you have information you would like to forward to me,
	you may write to me, Richard Fowler, S-A-U-D-E-R, at 1109.
	South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
	That is Richard Fowler, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
	All right.
	To our east of the Rockies line, you're on the air with Dr. Sautter.
	Where are you, please?
	Hey, Fort Myers, Florida.
	Yes, sir.
	Earlier you mentioned gravitational anomalies, and that brought to mind the story my parents told me when I was a lot younger.
	A place in Central Florida where a lot of people used to drive to a hill and they would
	drive down to the other side of the hill, they could put their car in park and then
	the car would roll backwards uphill.
	Wow, really?
	Yes, and I'd never heard about that before perhaps.
	It seemed pretty common to them and it was kind of a hot spot for the kids to go.
	Wow, what a story.
	There's a gentleman named William Corliss who's written a book, a series of books about
	anomalies of all kinds.
	But the size of a magnetic anomaly to pull a car backwards up a hill is almost unimaginable.
	It would have to be strong and very localized.
	Yeah.
	Evidently, they're around the planet here and there.
	There are nodal points or junctions, if you will, of conjunctions of energy, the forces, That produced some unusual effects, and I don't have a good explanation for them, but I have read similar accounts.
	I have read references to this place in Florida before.
	We live on an unusual planet, and everything you taught in freshman chemistry 101-102 does not necessarily rigorously hold in every case at every time.
	The universe is a strange place.
	Richard, we're running out of time, so if you were to give everybody out there a warning, based on all you know and all you think you know about what's coming, what would you say to people?
	I think this is the time for prayer.
	Oh boy.
	I don't say that because I think that the cause is lost.
	I say it's a time for prayer because I think it's a time when we as individuals and as members of society need to do a spiritual gut check.
	I think we also need to do more meditation in a quiet, prayerful, reverential way.
	This is advice, by the way, that I'm trying myself to follow in recent days, weeks and months.
	I agree with you.
	That we are living in a period of seemingly frantic change, when it's hard to understand what is happening, when it's becoming clear to more and more thinking people that so much has been kept secret from us, we have been lied to in so many ways and for so long by the very people who told us that they had our best interest at heart and we're beginning to find out that they Not to put too fine a point on it, duplicitous and just very smooth and practical liars, and maybe not much more than that.
	Richard, let me say this in closing.
	I kind of like it here above ground, and I don't know what's below ground.
	Maybe many tunnels and bases and all the rest of it.
	But I wouldn't want to have to be forced to live there.
	And I can't imagine anybody, including even government guys, would.
	So we'd better not foul what we have up here.
	Well, you know, there's the old classics, the Alternative 3 book, which you'll see kicking around sometimes for sale at
	UFO workshops and so forth.
	And in that scenario, going underground with wind-a-ways, which the elite plan to save themselves.
	You know, I don't doubt that for one second.
	Richard, we're out of time.
	Thank you, sir.
	That's it.
	Clock says we gotta go.
	Thank you, Richard.
	Thank you for having me.
	Right.
	Take care.
	Richard Sauter, author of Underground Bases and Tunnels.
	Just a quick note.
	For heaven's sakes, don't let it go.
	The five Roswell photographs are gonna be published in our newsletter.
	The next edition, we are on deadline.
	Don't wait.
	Order now.
	It's $29.95 a month.
	I think perhaps next month we're going to publish a photograph of Max the Crystal Skull.
	We're going to publish a photograph of my studio and any other anomalies or interesting things that occur between now and then.
	The number for the newsletter is 1-800-917-4278.
	Near deadline for the Roswell photographs.
	1-800-917-4278.
	It's been a dream.
	Thank you.
	7 8 near deadline for the Roswell photographs 1 800 917 4278 it's been a
	dream thank you from my desert everybody good night this has been three tired of hearing the bad news every day
	from the mainstream media looking for the news beyond the headlines
	Then join me, Michael Reagan, weeknights here on Talk 102.
	Every weeknight at 9 p.m., we open the toll-free lines and talk to you in central Illinois about today's political events and headlines.
	It's easy to get on board, too.
	Just pick up the phone, smile, and dial.
	Join me, Michael Reagan, weeknights at 9 p.m.
	here on Talk 102.
	The Michael Reagan Show, every weeknight from 9 p.m.
	9 till midnight on Top 102.
	It's thought that arthritis occurs when the body's immune system mistakes tissues in the
	joints for foreign material and attacks them.
	This can lead to a painful swelling and deterioration of cartilage.

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