Linda Moulton Howe reports Oklahoma cow mutilations and a California geometric formation while Richard Sauder details the GAO’s July 1995 Roswell report, exposing unauthorized destruction of records post-Manhattan Project, and FBI memos like J. Edgar Hoover’s July 10, 1947 request for recovered discs—evidence ignored by official investigations. Sauder reveals AT&T’s WWII-era underground Filter Centers, nuclear-powered tunneling tech from Los Alamos (1970s), and HAARP’s potential to manipulate climate by altering atmospheric layers, hinting at a shadow government operating beyond oversight. Callers confirm bizarre phenomena like cars rolling backward on hills and abduction narratives involving military-alien collaborations, while Sauder links environmental contamination—like Chernobyl’s DNA mutations—to accelerating global disruptions, warning of irreversible ecological collapse if humanity’s connection to nature weakens further. [Automatically generated summary]
And you're going to hear a little piece in a moment from Linda Howell, which is going to, I think, open your eyes a little bit about how to look at this report.
And then we'll have possibly Congressman Schiff-on, and he is now back in Washington.
So it's problematic whether we're going to get him or not, but we're going to give it the college try here.
And I've been promised his aide will answer the phone and transfer it studiously to the congressman.
We'll see whether that occurs or not.
If it does, we'll get straight from the congressman.
We'll get the information about how he feels about it.
They've been running some articles back in the New Mexico newspaper.
The congressman is a little upset with, I understand.
So we'll do that.
If I'm keeping all of this a little close to the vest right now, it's because I want you to hang on.
Then comes Richard Sauter.
And Richard is going to be talking about underground tunnels and bases, and more, actually.
I've got a very interesting facts here suggesting that there are reports coming in that Chile was just hit by a 7.8 earthquake at about 11 a.m. Eastern time.
Now, this would seem to be fulfilling the cycle of quakes that Gordon Michael Scallion talked about.
There would be 7.
plus quakes.
Very worrisome.
And I've also got a call in to Gordon Michael Scallion, so we'll try and get information for you on that.
And I believe that Mr. Sauter, tonight's guest, will have some news on that as well.
So that's kind of an outline of where we're going.
In a moment, we go there.
All the way to Philadelphia, and she's got a special report, and it concerns Roswell.
Before I get into the GAO release, I wanted to just quickly update that this past week there was a new report of a cow found dead near Manchester, Oklahoma with an ear and tongue removed from the head, the heart removed from the chest, and the udder and tail removed from the body, all bloodless excisions, according to the Alfalfa County Sheriff's Office.
And the Press Democrat in Santa Rosa, California reported today that an odd geometric formation about 150 feet long and looking something like a detailed kind of dumbbell shape was found on a grassy hillside horse pasture east of Santa Rosa.
The newspaper reports that the formation looks, quote, burned into the grass, unquote, overlooking Rincon Valley.
The resident was awakened by a flash of light the night before he found this formation in his horse pasture, and I'm going to have more on these stories next week.
But the big news tonight is the Friday, July 28th release of the government accounting office's report to New Mexico Congressman Steve Schiff detailing results of an investigation related to events surrounding that alleged crash of a flying saucer, as it was called back in some of the newspaper reports in July of 47, on a ranch near Corona, New Mexico, and the military's response to that crash.
Congressman Schiff released a press release Friday and it was entitled, quote, Schiff receives, releases Roswell Report, Missing Documents, Leave Unanswered Questions, unquote.
Because he had difficulty getting answers about the alleged crash from the Department of Defense, Congressman Schiff asked the GAO to investigate last year.
Now he says in his press release, quote, the Government Accounting Office report states that the outgoing messages from Roswell Army Airfield for 1946 to 1949 were destroyed without proper authority, unquote.
Schiff pointed out that these messages would have shown how military officials in Roswell were explaining to their superiors exactly what happened.
Quote, it is my understanding that these outgoing messages were permanent records which should never have been destroyed.
The GAO could not identify who destroyed the messages or why, unquote.
This afternoon, I talked with longtime Roswell investigator and nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, who's been with us on Dreamland before, and he talked about the GAO release and Congressman Schiff's emphasis on the unauthorized destruction of Roswell-related documents in the 1940s.
It certainly leaves a big hole in the notion that we've been able to check all the records and there isn't anything there that clearly we, the GAO was not able to look at those records.
That, to me, is one of the bigger questions of where did the, we'll call it the inner sanctum, the secret government, where did it begin to form and how did it assume this kind of authority even that far back to the point of destroying records just almost at its own command without any record whatsoever?
Well, remember that we're dealing with immediate post-Manhattan Project crimes.
The government had already long since established, especially in New Mexico, procedures for dealing with highly classified matters.
And that, you know, we're lucky that this even referenced two records of some sort.
On the Manhattan Project, Dr. Vannevar Bush, also involved in Majestic 12 and a zillion other things, noted in his oral history that that project, which in today's dollars would have cost about $20 billion, that during the life of that project, there were weekly meetings between him, Dr. General Leslie Grove, Dr. Conant, and Secretary of War Simpson.
Well, I have also read from your letter to Mr. Richard Davis, Director of the National Security Analysis Office, GAO, just quoting from you, you said, having been to 15 different document archives over the years, you raised this question.
Was any special compartmented information above top secret reviewed for the GAO report?
And you continued, it would appear that at the NSA, CIA, and FBI offices, the only material reviewed was related to FOIA, which is Freedom of Information Request, which almost by definition would not have been above top secret, yes BI.
They referred to the one memo that does mention clearly the craft stuff from Moswell and the balloon, possible balloon explanation, but they say nothing about a two-day later document which has J. Edgar Hoover himself,
and the document came from the FBI, I don't think there's any question of its authenticity, J. Edgar Hoover is saying we need access to recovered discs because in the, and I can't tell whether it's SW or L-Wright case, the Army wouldn't allow us access.
Well, this is two days after the other memo about Roswell.
Surely mention of recovered disc ought to be worth a look.
And the very fact that that memo would not have been followed up in this GAO request does automatically raise a red flag about other sensitive compartmentalized information being off limits.
And so, you know, I think the GAO is to be commended.
I know they got a lot of strife from the outside.
Some of the press was giving them a hard time.
And the nasty, noisy negativists, of course, gave them a hard time for wasting time, money, effort, energy on such nonsense.
You know, so I give them credit for that.
I certainly give Congressman Shiff credit for having the guts to pursue it in the first place and to persist in the second place and for taking the trouble in his press release to call attention to something that could just as easily have been buried.
You know, he could have taken the viewpoint that, well, they didn't find anything.
And Arch, given that sort of catch-22 about this situation, Congressman Schiff also discussed the government's 1947 weather balloon cover-up story in his July 28th press release.
Referring to this current GAO investigation, Schiff said, quote, at least this effort caused the Air Force to acknowledge that the crashed vehicle was no weather balloon.
That explanation never fit the fact of high military security used at the time, unquote.
However, the Air Force still persists with its September 1994 claim that what crashed on the Corona, New Mexico ranch was a classified Project Mobile, which was experimenting with a series of tethered balloons and equipment at about 45,000 feet above the Earth's surface in the troposphere.
And they were trying to detect, according to a scientist I've talked to, pressure waves which might be traced to Soviet nuclear testing back in 1947.
It's possible, Art, that in June to July that year, both balloons and flying disks from somewhere came down in New Mexico.
The fact that two years of records are missing without proper authority for destruction, permanent records is just too much.
Everywhere I turn, Linda, Washington investigations of all kinds, anything they don't want you to know, these days it's erased, it's blank, or it's destroyed.
Well, it will be interesting because if the, for example, if the Albuquerque Journal and any other newspapers in New Mexico did, in fact, take his press release and the GAO report,
as I understand, and assert that this now was definitely proving that what came down in New Mexico was only, quote unquote, a balloon of some sort, then I think that we still have the same problem today, that even the media is not understanding the complexity of this story and that headlines are entrenching in the public's mind a kind of a cover-up story that persists even if there were,
and I'm sure there were these scientific experiments, they don't explain the flying saucer crashed headline that was released by Roswell on the Air Force base itself.
His aide was supposed to pick up the telephone, transfer it to the Congressman.
His aide has a tape machine on, so we'll continue to work on that as the evening progresses.
Richard Sauter coming up.
I want to remind everybody, if you want copies of the Roswell Live photographs, we've got them.
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For now, a break at the bottom of the hour, and Dreamland will be right back.
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From the Kingdom of Not, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
I blame it on his aide who said, why, I can't give you those numbers, so I'll have to be in here to transfer the call.
Well, naturally, he's not there to transfer the call.
And so there is, as of yet, no Congressman Schiff.
If perchance he should call, we will, with permission of Richard Sauter, and not otherwise interrupt what we're doing and take a word or two from the Congressman.
Now, I've got an article here, just facts to me.
It is typical of what is appearing all over the nation now, with the exception of Roswell.
This is from the Fresno Bee, and it's simply titled Roswell Records from 47 Crash, Missing.
So headlining around the rest of the country would appear to be the fact that Congressman Schiff is saying, in essence, of course you found nothing.
Two years of records that would have given us what we want to know are missing.
They were permanent records.
They were not to be destroyed, and they were without authorization, as you heard Stanton Friedman say.
So how they can conclude this means nothing, except yet another cover-up, is beyond me.
And here's another facts that just came in on it.
Gerard, this sounds just like the Air Force statement released last summer stating that the recovered craft was a listening bloom, Project Mogul, they called it.
I believe the records are in storage somewhere and get so angry at some people in power who think we're so stupid as to actually believe this rubbish and somebody else who asks, well then, if all of the records were destroyed, just exactly where did the information come from that said it was a surveillance balloon?
That too is a damn good question, isn't it?
Right now, to our main guest for the evening, he is Richard Sauter.
He's been on before.
He's got a brand new book out called Underground Bases and Tunnels.
What is the Government Trying to Hide?
And he's also making a few moves that I think you're going to find very interesting.
And we're going to ask him a little bit about the earthquake cycle.
He's actually a PhD, so technically he is Dr. Richard Sauter.
And I guess perhaps we ought to see if we should be calling him that.
There is a present series of quakes going on, and this relates to your work in the 7.0 range that would appear or better, the latest being in Chile at 11 o'clock Eastern time.
Gordon Michael Scallion predicts that such a series as is going on right now will culminate in California with a very large earthquake in the Palm Springs area.
We could be on the verge of such an earthquake if all of this is correct.
And I'm trying to get through to Gordon Michael Scallion, but I thought I would ask you what you think.
Well, you know, it was a combination of factors, actually.
I moved to New Mexico several years ago.
I'm now in Flagstaff, Arizona.
But I moved there to study political science and pursue a Ph.D. in public.
When I arrived in New Mexico, I heard people, mostly in the ufology community, but not exclusively, talking about alleged underground tunnel here in the West and underground installations.
Well, this was a pretty new topic to me.
I hadn't heard much about this in the South.
I was born and reared in the South and spent most of my life there.
And so I pricked up my ears.
It was certainly a very curious topic.
I was fascinated, but just inundated by my academic career, if anyone listening here is to look into it.
As I got down the road a few years and began researching my dissertation, my schedule had a little more flexibility, and I was able to begin doing some research looking into this question.
And as I began to accumulate information, I realized indeed there was quite a bit of documentation on the open public record, by the way, that established a factual basis, at least in broad outline.
We just get a psh disconnect, and so we're going to have to get back hold of him.
He is Richard Sauter.
I will take this opportunity to take a break, and we'll get hold of him during the break.
We just about covered his early academic career.
In a moment, much more about underground bases and tunnels.
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Well, I'll bet you I'll just, you stupid phone company.
They do that every now and then.
It's like a reset, or maybe they decided they didn't like what we were talking about.
Anyway, we got a quick disconnect.
Let's take just a second out and expose the phone company's underground tunnels and bases.
Yeah, as a matter of fact, AT ⁇ T does have underground installations all across the country.
Most of them in isolated rural areas.
And actually, in my book, I give a location of three of them.
One in New Jersey, one in Georgia, one in Kansas.
There's another one here in New Mexico, which is just north of the little town of Caymato, which is out in Catron County, just a couple of miles north of Caymato.
Evidently, it dates back to the 1960s when they were concerned about the communication system being disabled by a nuclear strike because of electromagnetic pulse.
Not all of it by any means, but some of it, particularly what the Defense Department is doing, or at least that is what one would gather from the documentation that has been put out for public consumption.
The AT ⁇ T facilities, I understand, have living and survival headquarters.
If what I've been told is true, it's a bit on the Spartan side.
Well, I address it in the only way I know, which is to say that I don't know, and I can't prove the question one way or the other.
What I can demonstrate, and what I have demonstrated at length and in great detail, is that there are many underground installations, including from what my research has been able to divulge, a good number of them secret or classified.
Their locations unknown.
The agencies that operate them are unknown.
How they were built and to what purpose exactly they're put also remain unknown.
So I'm willing to entertain the possibility that some of these more unusual stories that you will hear when you read the UFO literature, and God knows I've read my own fair amount of it, some of these stories may have a kernel of truth in them.
On the other hand, not knowing more about what goes on underground, it's hard to say one way or the other.
Now, I have talked with a number of people now who have alleged to have been abducted and taken to underground facilities.
And they may be telling the truth about being abducted and being taken to underground facilities.
Now, whether or not they were abducted by these alleged extraterrestrials or aliens, be they of the reptilian, human, or a little gray persuasion, is another story.
I know that there are many techniques of mind control, some of them which your average hypnotist is familiar with and may be very adept at, which can induce in people a frame of mind, especially under frightening or unusual circumstances, which may make them believe that something is happening to them which is not happening in precisely the way that they are led to believe that it is occurring.
All right, let's leave the UFO aspect of it at that, even if the audience doesn't when we take calls.
I want to ask you about something very real.
It's called Project HAARP up in Alaska.
And I have photographs of the antenna arrays, and it's incredible, absolutely incredible.
HAARP is getting ready to go.
It has two stated scientific objectives that I am aware of.
One is to irradiate the ionosphere for really an unstated purpose, perhaps to see if they can actually affect the ionosphere with tremendous amounts of radiation.
That's one.
Two is to look for previously unmapped or unknown or secret, take your choice, underground tunnels and or bases.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I am, and there's a third purpose, which I'll briefly touch on too, but I'm holding a little clipping here from Aviation Week and Space Technology.
This September 26, 1994 issue.
On page 11, they had a little one-paragraph entry with the heading of Weird Science.
And it deals with precisely this, Project HARP.
And they say that it would provide earth-penetrating tomography over most of the northern hemisphere.
Such a capability would permit the detection and precise location of tunnels, shelters, and underground hardened military facilities.
So here's a verification from a very mainstream establishment journal that indeed that is exactly one of the purposes.
Now, I want to come back to that in a minute, but I want to touch on the third purpose, which I have heard discussed and bandied about in some other circles, which appears to be in the process of charging up the ionosphere with this incredible amount of radio frequency electromagnetic energy,
the intent seems to be to repel a layer of radioactively charged particles that is slowly settling closer and closer to the Earth's surface.
This layer, as I understand it, occurred in the 1950s and 1960s when there was high-altitude nuclear testing by the United States.
Well, I know that radioactive isotopes, especially long-lived variety, are very poisonous, and you wouldn't want them in your immediate environment.
So if indeed this is the case and there is, if you will, a layer of some sort or a band of some sort of highly radioactive particles which were put there 20 or 30 years ago by the high altitude nuclear explosion set off by Pentagon,
and if that's slowly coming closer to the Earth's surface where it could circulate in the atmosphere and conceivably be breathed by us and get into our drinking water and into the plants that we consume for food, then that could be a major public health crisis.
I have a bachelor's degree in sociology, a master's in Latin American studies, and a Ph.D. in political science.
I took a research methods seminar at the University of Florida when I was doing my master's degree.
And in the middle of a discussion one day, one of my fellow graduate students expressed dismay at a certain United States government project which had involved, oh, I think a fair amount of deception and fraud.
And the professor stopped class.
Everything was so silent you could hear a pin drop.
And he says, don't ever forget that governments lie.
United States government is a government, and it lied too.
Going back, it seems, as far as 1947, I don't for one second buy this whole Roswell business.
I mean, I think it is an insult for them to come out and say, well, no, the story essentially sticks, the balloon story, well, because these permanent, not-to-be-destroyed records covering two full-time Benjamin Franklin,
after the convention that wrote the United States Constitution adjourned, he came out and there was a woman, if I remember the story correctly, who asked him and some of the other delegates how it went.
And he said something in the effect of, well, madam, we've just given you a republic, if you can keep it.
One of the things I address in my book in the first few pages, by the way, from the standpoint of the extreme secrecy, and I might remind the audience that researching this book was not easy.
I hope it's easy to read.
That was my intent.
The work behind it was by no means always so easy.
But one of the things I say is this type of secrecy, especially coming from the military, in the case of Roswell, in the case of the underground installations, which are very real, by the way, which are all over the country, does not inspire confidence.
And in fact, I know from my studies in Latin American politics that it is just this climate of secrecy and official arrogance which is often associated With a trend towards military rule.
Doctor, if they're not, in other words, I don't know how far into the earth they can look, but obviously at the higher levels of government, we know already where the tunnels are that we have dug.
We know where the bases are underground that we have created.
First of all, I think the important thing to remember is that the government, the federal government we have is not monolithic.
I have heard it described by one observer as the most complex human institution ever devised.
For that reason, I don't rule out, for example, the possibility that given the extreme compartmentalization and the extreme degree of secrecy for covert projects in the military, the intelligence agencies, and the military-industrial complex,
that there may be agencies, organizations, corporations who may have made or be making their own tunnels, shelters, or underground facilities that they may, with some degree of success, have kept secret from others.
Now, this would then bring up the problem of detection.
If you had a suspicion that your rival agency, even within the Pentagon, may have one or two or more secret facilities, the locations and functions of which they are disguising from you, you might have a motive to find them out.
Now, if I understand the Air Force and the Army are the agencies behind the Project Heart.
This leaves the Navy conspicuously out of the equation.
Why?
Presumably, the Navy might have some interest in this information as well.
I have heard the scuttlebutters that you will hear in the corridors at New Age and UFO conventions and other places, that the Navy is actually a very major player in the UFO field and also in the underground excavation and construction business.
Albeit they keep a very low profile and are not identified in the public eye with such activities.
If there's any truth at all to that, then it may be that the Air Force and the Army feels that the Navy has a secret or two that it is keeping from them that they would like to find out.
See, I don't make the assumption at all when I read this that Project HARP's tunnel and underground installation locating capability is designed exclusively to detect such facilities or installations in places like Russia or Russia or Korea,
North Korea or China, for example, though I'm sure those places are locations where the Navy and the Air Force will look very carefully.
I'm pretty sure it could, as I understand it from what I've read in the alternative press, including some of the information that's come out through PACE, for example, the Planetary Association for Clean Energy out of Ottawa, Canada.
Dr. Mikleski is the director of that, and by the way, we'd be an excellent guest for this show.
Through my readings in PACE and other alternative media outlets, it seems to me that indeed Hart has the capability to lift, physically lift through electrically charging Huge, huge areas of the atmosphere, physically lift vast areas of the atmosphere.
Now, that is certainly going to change the circulation of winds, for example, in the upper atmosphere, which manifestly does influence the climate.
So, I'm inclined to say that with my own informed way reading, that it is every likelihood of altering the climate.
But what about the possibility that they recognize, they, that there is something wrong with the weather, as you suggested there was with this magnetic portion of the atmosphere?
And to even propose that records in 1947 were destroyed by somebody for future profit of something that had not yet even begun to germinate an interest in UFOs is also preposterous.
Yes, well, I think the writer of the facts displays a refreshing naivete in thinking that people like Art Bell, as powerful as you are, would have access to secret files in the Pentagon and would be able to go in and willy-nilly wipe out entire years full of files.
I have a lot of illustrations, diagrams, photos that you will find absolutely fascinating, I guarantee you.
And I think in the next edition of the book, I will have even more.
I also have plenty of footnotes and documentation in the back of the book.
For those who want to delve more deeply into this and follow the paper trail for themselves, there is one to be followed and to be delved into, and the documentation I provide will start you on your way.
A few years ago, back in the 70s, I read a book called The Hollow Earth.
Yes.
And I was wondering, are you familiar with that and if that might have anything to do you're talking about underground bases and things, if maybe they're trying to fight out information about that?
Sure, the Hollow Earth theory has been around for many years.
It's had many different proponents and a number of different formulations.
Essentially, it holds that the Earth is hollow, that there is an outer shell of maybe several hundred miles or maybe a couple thousand miles of thickness, and that inside there is another habitable realm, much as we know on the surface, with some kind of internal sun.
On the face of it, it seems like a nice bit of science fiction.
I don't presume to know the truth of this matter, not having ever been inside the Earth and not knowing anyone who has.
Nevertheless, I'm a little out of hand, but there's no way that I can prove or disprove such a notion.
If you look into the Hollow Earth literature to any extent, you'll run across that idea.
Now, as to whether the underground construction activity of the federal government and other organizations is related to trying to find this Hollow Earth or find out about it, I don't know.
I have heard and been told that some of this underground excavation and tunneling is designed to find, detect, explore other tunnel systems and other underground installations made by previous technological civilizations on the Earth many thousands of years before this present technological civilization,
which according to these stories is not the first technological civilization, having been preceded by others, which we now give the names such as Atlantis and Lemuria.
When you think about the Earth's diameter being, I think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000, 7,500 miles, three miles is barely scratching the surface.
I have read some people's theories which say that magma really does stay closer to the surface, and that much as what you just said, the Earth is not molten in the center, but is hotter towards the surface, and that its composition and the thermal characteristics change as one goes through the various strata and layers.
I don't presume to know, and I don't know anyone who has, so to speak, taken a dive straight through the Earth.
Do we have available to us technology that would allow us to literally burrow into the Earth, or I don't want to say bore into the Earth, but maybe lasers, maybe some sort of burrowing machine of some sort?
Would there be a way, in essence, to start down and just keep going?
One of the it essentially involves a tunnel boring device which is powered internally by a nuclear reactor, which provides the heat for the device to melt its way to the rock and soil.
And in fact, there was an excellent two-part series of articles entitled The Web of Darkness and Perceptions Magazine by Richard Boylan, who's based out of California, about the secret government, the shadow government.
He went into detail, and it was interesting to me as someone with a PhD in political science that he listed agencies of the federal government that I had never heard about and didn't have the slightest idea existed.
Some of the more obvious ones would be the CIA, National Security Agency, the FBI, IRS, FEMA, which is the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Reserve, NASA, the military intelligence agencies, the National Reconnaissance Office, and others.
There are whole dozens of them.
And in the aggregate, they do make up our shadow government or secret government, which does not play by the rules, by the checks and balances that were so carefully set out by the founding fathers in the U.S. Constitution.
Sad to say, that is the state of affairs in which we find ourselves in 1995.
I'm there this weekend, and I'm almost afraid to say any more, except that I have three close relatives who were rather high officials with American Telephone Telegraph, worked in a thing called the Filter Center in the Long Lines Division of AT ⁇ T. One was in construction, one was in personnel, and one was in technology.
Two of them individually have explained to me in the past that there was a lot of underground construction, that all military communications during World War II went through the filter center.
Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois mostly was where the centers were.
And that after World War II, other exotic things went through this filter center until the FTS or the Federal Telephone Service was built up more.
There was quite a bit more to it, but individually, two of them also confirmed that there were some wild things going on at Roswell, but it was some years later.
And that's about all I can say about at this point.
But there is construction that was done, was underground, quite a ways underground, a lot of communication underground.
You know, I would say I was in Denver, Denver area last week, and one of the facilities I mentioned in my book as a possible location for an underground installation is Table Mountain, which is just north of Boulder, about 10 or 15 miles off of Route 36.
If you're from the Denver-Boulder area, you may know what I'm referring to.
This mountain, which in New Mexico or Arizona would be called more of a Mesa, I believe, it's a very flat, low, long, flat hill, is run by the Commerce Department.
And once you approach it and get off of Route 36, there's a sign which very prominently at the top says Commerce Department.
And then it says under that in small letters, National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, National Telecommunications Research Institute.
And it also has a reference to some kind of gravity observation or gravity research, all under the auspices of the Commerce Department.
And there's an antenna field on top of this mesa or Turkin Mountain.
And if you drive around on the backside, and there is a periphery, a dirt road that runs all around the periphery, on the backside, there are two huge microwave dishes, very, very large.
One pointed straight up, evidently, to a geostationary satellite.
In any event, that is all run by the Commerce Department.
So maybe you ought to have Ron Brown on the shelf for Alameda Avenue, and it is between the two.
And there is an underground facility there.
When you drive around, you'll even notice the odd air vent or exhaust back coming out from underground if you look closely through the fence, as well as some large, conspicuous antennas of various kinds.
So, yes, there's more underground in Colorado than the NORAD Center at Cheyenne Mountain.
Richard, if you could go into a volcano and begin just going down like Pad Boone toward the center of wherever you were headed, how far could you probably go?
I mean, how deep do volcanoes go when they're inactive?
What possibilities are there for descent?
They had this little robot they tried to descend into one recently, and it tripped and fell.
In an area where you have extinct volcanoes, you would certainly have lava tubes that would have had all of the lava evacuated out of them as the volcano ceased erupting.
All right, well, then back, let me back up a little bit.
We were talking about boring directly down into the ground.
Now, scientists have a lot of natural curiosity, and politicians have lots of paranoia.
And we went through the Cold War.
It just seems to me that if there's a way to burrow down with nuclear technology, that either we've done it or they're neglectful for not having tried.
You know, there's an anecdote in Whitley Striper's latest book, which is entitled Breakthrough, which is fascinating, by the way.
I recommend it to the audience.
You should check it out.
He and a friend were sitting in his family's cabin in upstate New York one afternoon or morning, a number of years ago, and suddenly blood started pouring out of his friend's forehead.
Actually, the forehead was bleeding through the pores.
Very unusual.
I actually spoke with Whitley about this incident on the phone.
Actually, he mentioned it to me in the course of very graciously consenting to provide a blurb for the cover of the second printing of my book.
And I'm inclined to believe that that could easily be due to his friend being in the camp of an ultrasonic being, perhaps being employed for a subterranean excavation in the near vicinity of where Whitley Street was living at the time.
I do, in my book, indicate that the Defense Nuclear Agency targeted upstate New York as one of the areas where they wanted to build very deep underground military installations back in the 1970s.
And they may have done it.
One of the technologies which has been explored by the military-industrial complex over the last quarter century for boring tunnels underground is precisely using ultrasound to pulverize the rock.
Of course, with ultrasound or pulverized rock, it could fairly easily rupture a capillary membrane as well.
Listen, you guys are talking about subjects here, and as the government, you're opening the field up, and as the government hears you, they're going to constantly be watching and hearing you guys.
I mean, as Richard just pointed out, there is this thing called the First Amendment, and we can talk about and explore areas and will on this program exactly like this.
If some beans get spilled, then too bad.
unidentified
Because I've been affiliated with the military, and I tell you right now.
When you start getting too close to information, then all of a sudden people get nervous.
I don't know, but you know, for his edification, if he's in the military, then he took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies domestic and foreign.
And let me just read you one sentence from that Constitution, which this gentleman and every other person affiliated with the military has sworn to uphold.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances.
And if he or others in the military does not believe in this article, then they ought to disavow their oath and leave that institution.
The question I had was, and this may be a question that you cover earlier in the show and I didn't catch.
On a TV show I saw on NBC, they had an abductee on there, and he was taken to an underground base.
And some information that he got while the abductee was down there is that the aliens and the military were both getting ready for something, but he did not know what that something was.
Well, you know, there are an increasing number of these stories filtering out now of people reportedly being abducted and taken to underground installations.
The story seems to have three basic forms in which it appears.
In one type of scenario, a person is abducted by special United States military forces and taken underground, and the only beings that they see appear to be terrestrial humans working for the United States military.
In another formulation, the only beings that they see from beginning to end are the little grays and or the reptilians.
And in yet a third formulation, in a third form, they interact with both seeming terrestrial humans in the employ of or members of the United States military, and they also see a variety of extraterrestrial alien beings, including little grays and or reptilians and or extraterrestrial humans.
Now, what you have just related about this coming whatever it is that the alien military are getting ready for, I can't say anything about because I don't know what it might be.
I mean, you can even pick this up in Raymond Fowler's books, or the one, I'm thinking of one in particular called The Watchers, where the aliens that this woman, Betty Andre, interacts with, intimate that the Earth is fast approaching some sort of great period of crisis and cataclysm.
And it seems that biological life may not be viable, and so they are in the process of collecting representative samples.
I will tell you what I have been told, including by a couple of one ex-Navy personnel, that there are on both coasts of the United States underwater submarine bases such that submarines can enter the inland area underwater and then once the inland surface in underground facilities that are immediately adjacent to the coastal areas.
Well, let me say that there may be a biological basis for this, and we may be sensing what is actually happening on a molecular and cellular level in our bodies.
I'll give you an example of what I mean.
There was a little news item that appeared in the Albuquerque, New Mexico paper a couple of weeks ago, indicating that biological research teams that have gone into the vicinity of Chernobila in Russia, where the nuclear disaster occurred back in the 1980s,
have discovered that the mice there have mutated so quickly under the pressure or the impact of the extreme radioactive contamination of their environment, that the native rice mice in the Chernobyl region have had such a great change in their DNA that their DNA is now different from other related species of mice.
So much different that it varies from the DNA of related species of mice more than the DNA of mice differs from the DNA of rats.
So I would assume that if radioactivity can have that kind of influence on the genetic code of mice, that the pervasive radioactivity is having an effect on human DNA as well.
Well, I think that, I will reiterate, as I mentioned earlier in the program, I think that with nuclear technology, that we have opened Pandora's box willy-nilly, and like it or not, we are now dealing with the consequences.
Could be.
It could be between the nuclear contamination and agrochemical contamination, by the way, which is equally as pervasive.
Some of the agrochemicals are extremely long-lived, very powerful, and by the way, have a profound impact on our biochemistry.
And I think between radioactive contamination and chemical contamination in the environment from dioxins and agrochemicals and a whole richest brew of organic chemicals that have been developed for the most part in the 20th century and which are widely used now all over the world, that we are surely undergoing a period of great change, which is maybe not so apparent to us because we're living in the middle of it.
I would just like to tag that as we go into a break here with a very shocking figure that came out about, oh, it was about a half a year ago.
And that is that since World War II, you all bear this in mind based on what the doctor said, since World War II, the statistics for cancer for men, non-smoking-related incidences of cancer, have gone up 300%.
Repeat, 300%.
This is non-smoking-related cancer.
Now, Gee, what do you think might be causing that?
North American trading has done a very wise thing.
You see, not very long ago, we...
Now, be sure.
We apparently have a lot of researchers that listen to this program Because we've got some questions from researchers for our guest, Dr. Sauer, coming up in just one moment.
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And the following comes from Mark Davenport, who of course is himself a researcher.
And he said, Art, here's a photo of those radio telescopes near Boulder, Colorado.
I took it myself, Mark Davenport.
And here it is.
And by God, they are aimed straight up.
Now, I know something about geosynchronous satellites.
They are above the equator.
They require from the Boulder area something in the area of 38 to 40 degrees of angle to look geosynchronous.
What they could possibly be looking at that would be straight up beats me.
But I'll tell you this.
It's not a geosynchronous satellite.
There's no question about that.
So there you have that.
And we've got a couple of other very relevant questions.
One is from John Rhodes, himself a researcher and a previous guest on Dreamland.
Art, please ask Richard about the use of gravity anomaly maps in determining the location of underground facilities.
I've used them in my own research and found them invaluable.
I've gotten believing that someone in their divine wisdom determined that the great unwarranted masses could get their focus their eyeballs on if they ever got around to ungluing themselves from the O.J. Simpson trial and actually going to a library and reading what it's there, which is my case.
that's what got me started in it but uh i i admitted i am addicted to the trial to the drama to the uh the sort of And you do get addicted, and I admit it freely.
And I don't apologize for it, but I understand, nevertheless, what Richard was saying.
And when somebody comes along arbitrarily and says, that's going to cost you an additional, whatever it turns out to be, you've got to get that money somewhere.
And a lot of people say, well, why did a business owner just eat it?
He makes too much money anyway.
It's not fair you should have a business and I don't.
There's still a significant number of people, I think, who think that way.
And It's just not the real world.
I'm glad you called.
Thanks for the story.
We'll take a quick break and be back with more after this.
Does this relate in some way to an underground facility?
unidentified
Well, I was not privy to the facilities in particular as far as any subterranean, but I was kind of wondering if he had come up on any kind of information in reference to that.
If you will look at the map, I see the Trump is just right across the way from Fort Irwin.
But you also see that Fort Irwin is surrounded by various military installations and it's up on a higher elevation level than the Los Angeles basin.
And even if you can't read all the faxes on the air, since I assume they sent them to you for my feedback, if you don't mind sending them along to me or copies of them to me, I would appreciate it.
Sure, there are many, many underground installations, some of them very sophisticated and deep all over the country.
And they have been very carefully constructed, very carefully maintained, and kept very secret for the most part.
Doctor, here's a question that's right down your alley.
Sure.
What would our government do if they fired up the HAARP project and they found the earth was riddled with tunnels and underground bases that they didn't know were there before?
Would they run to the phone and call the Art Bell Show, or would they simply pull a Roswell and say nothing of any significance was found underground?
I'd go for option B. I'm not at all inspired by the various cover-ups, not only with respect to Roswell, but other things that we've seen in the post-World War II period.
I just don't believe that we'd be likely to hear much about it.
My guess is that there could easily be other tunnel systems out there, perhaps a very ancient origin.
And it's just dismaying.
I hope that you'll have Richard Hoagland on soon to talk about his latest findings on the moon.
He's been passed a very high-resolution infrared photograph from the Clementine mission, which has now had a very high degree of secrecy clamped on it.
But it appears that the moon is probably riddled with huge artificial structures.
Richard, in an earlier space mission, this is science, not speculation, they actually, and I forget which mission it was, I'm sorry, but they allowed part of a space vehicle that was not to be used on the return trip to go down and smash into the moon.
Okay, when it did, I'm told reliably that they heard geologic vibrations that went on for hours and hours, which could only mean that there's something below the moon's surface that we don't know about.
Yeah, well, it seems that the Clementine infrared photograph penetrated the surface, and that indeed I saw Hoagland's presentation in Los Angeles last month, and it seems that there may be level after level after level of artificial construction going down and down and down on the moon.
And if that's the case, then the military and NASA certainly know about it, and they are covering all of that up completely, or at least to the extent they can.
And it's a great shame because it would be the story of this or any century.
And we deserve to know.
After all, it's our tax dollars that pay for these space probes.
Dr. Sauter, again, I guess it's not your area, but if one were to alter the path of the jet stream, one would indeed dramatically or even catastrophically alter the weather, wouldn't they?
Well, I'm told, and this again is an area I know you're beginning to get into, that our Earth's ecological balance, is it, would you describe it as very tentative, that very small changes could actually eventually cause man or plants or trees or animals or all of it to disappear?
Would it take a very small change or a very large?
Starting in the popular press, oh, about three or four years ago, there was a whole state of articles about the drastic decline of amphibian populations, salamanders, toads, frogs, all over the planet In every type of climate, at every elevation, on every continent, including in North America.
Now, the interesting thing about amphibians is that they are smacked dead in the middle of the food chain.
I submit the food chain is like any other chain.
You break a link in the middle of it, and it essentially becomes a chain that has no power or strength to speak of.
We are at the top of that chain, and will it help us?
Because when the ecology begins to unravel, as it appears it may be doing already, then I would think it's only a matter of decades at the most before there would be very, very large changes, and we may have already begun that process.
Boy, that's pretty ominous stuff, but I'm not altogether sure that I disagree with it.
Dr. Richard Sauter is my guest.
His book, Underground Bases and Tunnels, What is the Government Trying to Hide?
We're going to give his number and address to get book and all of that sort of thing in just a moment.
So if you've not yet done it, run and get a pencil, please, right now.
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Next week on Dreamland, Area 51 expert Glenn Campbell, the guy who probably knows more about Area 51 and has spent more time up there than just about anybody else alive.
Don't miss that.
Area 51, or should I say Area 51's Glenn Campbell?
That's not quite right, but it's pretty close.
Not the singer, but the guy who knows about Area 51.
Now, Dr. Sauter, we promise, so they've got their pencils ready.
Underground bases and tunnels, what's the government trying to hide?
Now, if you have information you would like to forward to me, you may write to me, Richard Fowder, S-A-U-D-E-R, at 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
That is, Richard Sauder, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
Evidently, around the planet here and there, there are nodal points or junctions, if you will, of conjunctions of energies, of forces that produce some unusual effects.
And I don't have a good explanation for them, but I have read similar accounts.
I have read references to this place in Florida before.
We live on an unusual planet.
And everything you're taught in Freshman Chemistry 101, 102 does not necessarily rigorously hold in every case at every time.
So if you were to give everybody out there a warning based on all you know and all you think you know about what's coming, what would you say to people?
I don't say that because I think that the cause has glaught.
I say it's a time for prayer because I think it's a time when we as individuals and as members of society need to do a spiritual gut check.
I think we also need to do more meditation in a quiet, prayerful, reverential way.
This is advice, by the way, that I'm trying myself to follow in recent days, weeks, and months.
I agree with you that we are living in a period of seemingly frantic change when it's hard to understand what is happening, when it's becoming clear to more and more thinking people that so much has been kept secret from us.
We have been lied to in so many ways and for so long by the very people who told us that they had our best interest at heart.
And we're beginning to find out that they are not to put too fine a point on it, duplicitous, and just very smooth and practiced liars.
Well, you know, there's the old classics, the alternative three book, which you'll see kicking around sometimes and for sale at UFO workshops and so forth.
And in that scenario, going underground was one of the ways which the elite plan to save themselves.