Art Bell

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July 30, 1995 - Art Bell

02:02:12

Dreamland with Art Bell - Linda Moulton Howe - Hale Bopp Discovered - Richard Sauder - Underground Bases

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40:53

linda moulton howe

08:34

richard sauder

46:13

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stanton friedman

03:56

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In a box.
		Things seen at the edge of vision.
		Awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
		And yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
		This is Dreamland.
		It absolutely is a Sunday night and another dreamland on the air.
		Good evening, everybody from the high desert.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		And let me tell you what is to be for this evening.
		Whether you've heard or not, the GAO report on Roswell is out.
		Released first in the form of a press release from Congressman Schiff's office.
unidentified		And now, of course, the entire report is available.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you're going to hear a little piece in a moment from Linda Howell, which is going to, I think, open your eyes a little bit about how to look at this report.
		And then we'll have possibly Congressman Schiff-on, and he is now back in Washington.
		So it's problematic whether we're going to get him or not, but we're going to give it the college try here.
		And I've been promised his aide will answer the phone and transfer it studiously to the congressman.
		We'll see whether that occurs or not.
		If it does, we'll get straight from the congressman.
		We'll get the information about how he feels about it.
		They've been running some articles back in the New Mexico newspaper.
		The congressman is a little upset with, I understand.
		So we'll do that.
		If I'm keeping all of this a little close to the vest right now, it's because I want you to hang on.
		Then comes Richard Sauter.
		And Richard is going to be talking about underground tunnels and bases, and more, actually.
		I've got a very interesting facts here suggesting that there are reports coming in that Chile was just hit by a 7.8 earthquake at about 11 a.m. Eastern time.
		Now, this would seem to be fulfilling the cycle of quakes that Gordon Michael Scallion talked about.
		There would be 7.
		plus quakes.
		Very worrisome.
		And I've also got a call in to Gordon Michael Scallion, so we'll try and get information for you on that.
		And I believe that Mr. Sauter, tonight's guest, will have some news on that as well.
		So that's kind of an outline of where we're going.
		In a moment, we go there.
		All the way to Philadelphia, and she's got a special report, and it concerns Roswell.
		Linda, it's all yours.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, thanks, Art.
		Before I get into the GAO release, I wanted to just quickly update that this past week there was a new report of a cow found dead near Manchester, Oklahoma with an ear and tongue removed from the head, the heart removed from the chest, and the udder and tail removed from the body, all bloodless excisions, according to the Alfalfa County Sheriff's Office.
		And the Press Democrat in Santa Rosa, California reported today that an odd geometric formation about 150 feet long and looking something like a detailed kind of dumbbell shape was found on a grassy hillside horse pasture east of Santa Rosa.
		The newspaper reports that the formation looks, quote, burned into the grass, unquote, overlooking Rincon Valley.
		The resident was awakened by a flash of light the night before he found this formation in his horse pasture, and I'm going to have more on these stories next week.
		But the big news tonight is the Friday, July 28th release of the government accounting office's report to New Mexico Congressman Steve Schiff detailing results of an investigation related to events surrounding that alleged crash of a flying saucer, as it was called back in some of the newspaper reports in July of 47, on a ranch near Corona, New Mexico, and the military's response to that crash.
		Congressman Schiff released a press release Friday and it was entitled, quote, Schiff receives, releases Roswell Report, Missing Documents, Leave Unanswered Questions, unquote.
		Because he had difficulty getting answers about the alleged crash from the Department of Defense, Congressman Schiff asked the GAO to investigate last year.
		Now he says in his press release, quote, the Government Accounting Office report states that the outgoing messages from Roswell Army Airfield for 1946 to 1949 were destroyed without proper authority, unquote.
		Schiff pointed out that these messages would have shown how military officials in Roswell were explaining to their superiors exactly what happened.
		Quote, it is my understanding that these outgoing messages were permanent records which should never have been destroyed.
		The GAO could not identify who destroyed the messages or why, unquote.
		This afternoon, I talked with longtime Roswell investigator and nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman, who's been with us on Dreamland before, and he talked about the GAO release and Congressman Schiff's emphasis on the unauthorized destruction of Roswell-related documents in the 1940s.
		Now, Stanton Friedman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Always good to have him on the show.
		Stanton Friedman, coming up next.
		Any moment.
		Any moment.
		Here he comes.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		It certainly leaves a big hole in the notion that we've been able to check all the records and there isn't anything there that clearly we, the GAO was not able to look at those records.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and no one has been able to look at the records if they were all destroyed.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
		A quote from the report itself.
		Rosal Army Airfield outgoing messages from October 1946 through December 1949 were destroyed.
		The document disposition form did not properly indicate the authority under which the disposal action was taken.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So nobody knows who destroyed the records or what.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		No record of it whatsoever.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		That, to me, is one of the bigger questions of where did the, we'll call it the inner sanctum, the secret government, where did it begin to form and how did it assume this kind of authority even that far back to the point of destroying records just almost at its own command without any record whatsoever?
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Well, remember that we're dealing with immediate post-Manhattan Project crimes.
		The government had already long since established, especially in New Mexico, procedures for dealing with highly classified matters.
		And that, you know, we're lucky that this even referenced two records of some sort.
		On the Manhattan Project, Dr. Vannevar Bush, also involved in Majestic 12 and a zillion other things, noted in his oral history that that project, which in today's dollars would have cost about $20 billion, that during the life of that project, there were weekly meetings between him, Dr. General Leslie Grove, Dr. Conant, and Secretary of War Simpson.
		There were no secretary, no agenda, no minutes.
		There weren't any records.
		And they ran that huge project that way.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right, meaning that they were covering up all of us as an inner sanctum government right from the beginning of the Manhattan Project.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, no question about it.
		And Roosevelt trusted these people.
		Rightly so, I might add.
		I mean, there's never been any indication that there was any reason that he shouldn't have trusted them.
		He was busy with a little warrior run, a big warrior run.
		And we were getting kicked around at the early part of the war, especially when the Manhattan Project started.
		So it's understandable.
		What I'm saying is that you have to think in terms of the 1947 context.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		They had a precedent for the one and most secret projects in U.S. history being totally covered up and run from the President's office.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So continuing an alleged crashed disc and retrieval operation in the same manner would not be surprising.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		No, especially in the same place.
		This is New Mexico.
		Los Alamos, Kirtland, Sandilla.
		White Sands was, that's where the first atom bomb was tested.
		It was on the ground in White Sands.
		And I'll guarantee you they didn't pass out notices to all the people in the neighborhood about the first atom bomb test.
		They put out a press release saying, unfortunately, an ammunition jump had blown up, but fortunately nobody was injured.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have also read from your letter to Mr. Richard Davis, Director of the National Security Analysis Office, GAO, just quoting from you, you said, having been to 15 different document archives over the years, you raised this question.
		Was any special compartmented information above top secret reviewed for the GAO report?
		And you continued, it would appear that at the NSA, CIA, and FBI offices, the only material reviewed was related to FOIA, which is Freedom of Information Request, which almost by definition would not have been above top secret, yes BI.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		They referred to the one memo that does mention clearly the craft stuff from Moswell and the balloon, possible balloon explanation, but they say nothing about a two-day later document which has J. Edgar Hoover himself,
		and the document came from the FBI, I don't think there's any question of its authenticity, J. Edgar Hoover is saying we need access to recovered discs because in the, and I can't tell whether it's SW or L-Wright case, the Army wouldn't allow us access.
		Well, this is two days after the other memo about Roswell.
		Surely mention of recovered disc ought to be worth a look.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And the date on the Hoover memo again was the 10th, I believe.
		Of July.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		And I would have thought that that memo would have been pursued.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the Hoovers.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		The FBI.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		I mean, the FBI, first of all, we're dealing with the head of the FBI for a lot of years.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Second, we're dealing with an organization which has within its ranks people who are experts at handwriting analysis.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And the very fact that that memo would not have been followed up in this GAO request does automatically raise a red flag about other sensitive compartmentalized information being off limits.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it certainly does.
		And so, you know, I think the GAO is to be commended.
		I know they got a lot of strife from the outside.
		Some of the press was giving them a hard time.
		And the nasty, noisy negativists, of course, gave them a hard time for wasting time, money, effort, energy on such nonsense.
		You know, so I give them credit for that.
		I certainly give Congressman Shiff credit for having the guts to pursue it in the first place and to persist in the second place and for taking the trouble in his press release to call attention to something that could just as easily have been buried.
		You know, he could have taken the viewpoint that, well, they didn't find anything.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Instead, he's red flags the fact that historic records for two years were destroyed and should not have been destroyed.
stanton friedman ▲ ● ▼		Yep, absolutely.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And Arch, given that sort of catch-22 about this situation, Congressman Schiff also discussed the government's 1947 weather balloon cover-up story in his July 28th press release.
		Referring to this current GAO investigation, Schiff said, quote, at least this effort caused the Air Force to acknowledge that the crashed vehicle was no weather balloon.
		That explanation never fit the fact of high military security used at the time, unquote.
		However, the Air Force still persists with its September 1994 claim that what crashed on the Corona, New Mexico ranch was a classified Project Mobile, which was experimenting with a series of tethered balloons and equipment at about 45,000 feet above the Earth's surface in the troposphere.
		And they were trying to detect, according to a scientist I've talked to, pressure waves which might be traced to Soviet nuclear testing back in 1947.
		It's possible, Art, that in June to July that year, both balloons and flying disks from somewhere came down in New Mexico.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I'm tempted to react right away.
		The fact that two years of records are missing without proper authority for destruction, permanent records is just too much.
		Everywhere I turn, Linda, Washington investigations of all kinds, anything they don't want you to know, these days it's erased, it's blank, or it's destroyed.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I know.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		It's not exactly the way we thought a democracy was supposed to work.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, indeed not.
		But maybe there's the lesson of Richard Nixon and Watergate.
		Maybe everybody paid attention.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, were you able to get Congressman Schiff on the line yet?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I have not yet tried.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to do that at a break here.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, it will be interesting because if the, for example, if the Albuquerque Journal and any other newspapers in New Mexico did, in fact, take his press release and the GAO report,
		as I understand, and assert that this now was definitely proving that what came down in New Mexico was only, quote unquote, a balloon of some sort, then I think that we still have the same problem today, that even the media is not understanding the complexity of this story and that headlines are entrenching in the public's mind a kind of a cover-up story that persists even if there were,
		and I'm sure there were these scientific experiments, they don't explain the flying saucer crashed headline that was released by Roswell on the Air Force base itself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they don't explain a lot.
		All right, Linda, give out your phone number very quickly.
		We're running short on time.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I always welcome to hear from people at my FAFSC Vania.
		And the zip code is 19006.
		And next week I will follow up on Cross Circles and this new mutilation machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
		Excellent, Linda.
		And as always, thank you.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and I hope you get Congressman Schiff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I hope so too.
		Thanks, Linda.
		Take care.
		And we will make an attempt at that in a moment.
		GMX, what is GMX?
		It is very simply a modern.
		9799.
		Well, all right.
		As of yet, no luck with Congressman Schiff.
		His aide, and it's not his fault.
		I knew it would work out this way.
		His aide was supposed to pick up the telephone, transfer it to the Congressman.
		His aide has a tape machine on, so we'll continue to work on that as the evening progresses.
		Richard Sauter coming up.
		I want to remind everybody, if you want copies of the Roswell Live photographs, we've got them.
		Either on a bulletin board service, which you can call at area code 702-727-1709, or you can get them.
		I'll tell you, we're up to deadline on the newsletter.
		Order our newsletter after dark now.
		Right now.
		Get it done.
		We're on deadline.
		And you'll get the Roswell photographs.
		That number, 24 hours a day, including right now, is 1-800-917-4278.
		It's $29.95 for a full year.
		And if you order now, you'll get the Roswell photographs.
		But that deadline quickly is approaching.
		1-800-917-4278.
		And later in the program, we'll give you an address.
		For now, a break at the bottom of the hour, and Dreamland will be right back.
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		From the Kingdom of Not, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art now toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
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		Now again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's Art Bell.
		Now again, I am here.
		We do not have Congressman Schiff.
		I certainly don't blame it on him.
		I blame it on his aide who said, why, I can't give you those numbers, so I'll have to be in here to transfer the call.
		Well, naturally, he's not there to transfer the call.
		And so there is, as of yet, no Congressman Schiff.
		If perchance he should call, we will, with permission of Richard Sauter, and not otherwise interrupt what we're doing and take a word or two from the Congressman.
		Now, I've got an article here, just facts to me.
		It is typical of what is appearing all over the nation now, with the exception of Roswell.
		This is from the Fresno Bee, and it's simply titled Roswell Records from 47 Crash, Missing.
		So headlining around the rest of the country would appear to be the fact that Congressman Schiff is saying, in essence, of course you found nothing.
		Two years of records that would have given us what we want to know are missing.
		They were permanent records.
		They were not to be destroyed, and they were without authorization, as you heard Stanton Friedman say.
		So how they can conclude this means nothing, except yet another cover-up, is beyond me.
		And here's another facts that just came in on it.
		Gerard, this sounds just like the Air Force statement released last summer stating that the recovered craft was a listening bloom, Project Mogul, they called it.
		I believe the records are in storage somewhere and get so angry at some people in power who think we're so stupid as to actually believe this rubbish and somebody else who asks, well then, if all of the records were destroyed, just exactly where did the information come from that said it was a surveillance balloon?
		That too is a damn good question, isn't it?
		Right now, to our main guest for the evening, he is Richard Sauter.
		He's been on before.
		He's got a brand new book out called Underground Bases and Tunnels.
		What is the Government Trying to Hide?
		And he's also making a few moves that I think you're going to find very interesting.
		And we're going to ask him a little bit about the earthquake cycle.
		He's actually a PhD, so technically he is Dr. Richard Sauter.
		And I guess perhaps we ought to see if we should be calling him that.
		Dr. Sauter, are you there?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'm right here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I never realized you were a PhD, and I've had your bios, and all this time I probably should have been calling you Doctor.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dr. Sauter.
		Before we get into the strict topic of underground tunnels and bases, We've had many times a fellow named Gordon Michael Scallion on.
		I presume you've heard him.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		There is a present series of quakes going on, and this relates to your work in the 7.0 range that would appear or better, the latest being in Chile at 11 o'clock Eastern time.
		Gordon Michael Scallion predicts that such a series as is going on right now will culminate in California with a very large earthquake in the Palm Springs area.
		We could be on the verge of such an earthquake if all of this is correct.
		And I'm trying to get through to Gordon Michael Scallion, but I thought I would ask you what you think.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you what I think.
		I understand am not an earth scientist.
		I don't have any type of degree in geology or a related field.
		Indeed, it does seem to be true that there has been an increasingly large number of earthquakes around the planet in recent years.
		And Gordon Michael Scallion may well be right.
		I don't know.
		I guess the proof will be in the pudding, and we'll all stand by, and if it goes dying one day in a big way, we'll say, uh-huh.
		The Scallion was right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the proof would be in the rubble.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		No doubt.
		And I guess the thing to do would be to scramble and hope that you're on top of the pile of rubble and not only begin.
		I guarantee you, I'm not going to make a move to Southern California anytime soon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Underground bases and tunnels.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What in the world got you interested in such a thing anyway?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, it was a combination of factors, actually.
		I moved to New Mexico several years ago.
		I'm now in Flagstaff, Arizona.
		But I moved there to study political science and pursue a Ph.D. in public.
		When I arrived in New Mexico, I heard people, mostly in the ufology community, but not exclusively, talking about alleged underground tunnel here in the West and underground installations.
		Well, this was a pretty new topic to me.
		I hadn't heard much about this in the South.
		I was born and reared in the South and spent most of my life there.
		And so I pricked up my ears.
		It was certainly a very curious topic.
		I was fascinated, but just inundated by my academic career, if anyone listening here is to look into it.
		As I got down the road a few years and began researching my dissertation, my schedule had a little more flexibility, and I was able to begin doing some research looking into this question.
		And as I began to accumulate information, I realized indeed there was quite a bit of documentation on the open public record, by the way, that established a factual basis, at least in broad outline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, isn't that just wonderful?
		Looks like we just lost our guest.
		Sorry about that.
		Occasionally it occurs.
		We just get a psh disconnect, and so we're going to have to get back hold of him.
		He is Richard Sauter.
		I will take this opportunity to take a break, and we'll get hold of him during the break.
		We just about covered his early academic career.
		In a moment, much more about underground bases and tunnels.
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		All right.
		Well, I'll bet you I'll just, you stupid phone company.
		They do that every now and then.
		It's like a reset, or maybe they decided they didn't like what we were talking about.
		Anyway, we got a quick disconnect.
		Let's take just a second out and expose the phone company's underground tunnels and bases.
		I bet they've got some, don't they, Richard?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Oh, they absolutely do, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's where they put secret installations to cut people talking about this kind of stuff off in the middle of a sentence.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It's enough to make you a little paranoid.
		Yeah.
		Yeah, as a matter of fact, AT ⁇ T does have underground installations all across the country.
		Most of them in isolated rural areas.
		And actually, in my book, I give a location of three of them.
		One in New Jersey, one in Georgia, one in Kansas.
		There's another one here in New Mexico, which is just north of the little town of Caymato, which is out in Catron County, just a couple of miles north of Caymato.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And what is it you think they do in these?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can tell you what I've been told.
unidentified		Really?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I was asking this in jest to get vengeance on them, but there's really something to it, huh?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It's absolutely true.
		The phone company is underground installation.
		Evidently, it dates back to the 1960s when they were concerned about the communication system being disabled by a nuclear strike because of electromagnetic pulse.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		A lot of what we do that's underground uses that same reasoning, doesn't it?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		A certain amount of it.
		Not all of it by any means, but some of it, particularly what the Defense Department is doing, or at least that is what one would gather from the documentation that has been put out for public consumption.
		The AT ⁇ T facilities, I understand, have living and survival headquarters.
		If what I've been told is true, it's a bit on the Spartan side.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Figures, if the rest of us fly, at least the phone company survives, huh?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, you know, that's ironic.
		I was asked that in a talk as if, well, Richard, you know, don't you want the phones to work in the event of a nuclear strike?
		And I said, well, I suppose, but isn't it awfully ironic that, you know, I would be dead and my phone would still be functioning?
		So what would be the point?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of even leaving a message on your answering machine.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yes, maybe God would answer in your absence.
		I don't know.
		But sure, AT ⁇ T has these.
		I've been told of another one in some correspondence I received from one of the many people who've written me over the last few months.
		And by the way, I do appreciate those letters and cards.
		Some of them have come from your listeners, by the way.
		And after my first appearance on your show, I received a whole flood of mail, and some of it very interesting, by the way.
		I do appreciate it.
		I do read it, and I answer most of it.
		Some of it is on the crackpot side.
		I'll be truthful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there is an element of that in underground bases and tunnels.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		As a matter of fact, the beginning of your book really addresses that.
		The UFO community imagines or believes there to be a connection.
		How do you address that?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I address it in the only way I know, which is to say that I don't know, and I can't prove the question one way or the other.
		What I can demonstrate, and what I have demonstrated at length and in great detail, is that there are many underground installations, including from what my research has been able to divulge, a good number of them secret or classified.
		Their locations unknown.
		The agencies that operate them are unknown.
		How they were built and to what purpose exactly they're put also remain unknown.
		So I'm willing to entertain the possibility that some of these more unusual stories that you will hear when you read the UFO literature, and God knows I've read my own fair amount of it, some of these stories may have a kernel of truth in them.
		On the other hand, not knowing more about what goes on underground, it's hard to say one way or the other.
		Now, I have talked with a number of people now who have alleged to have been abducted and taken to underground facilities.
		And they may be telling the truth about being abducted and being taken to underground facilities.
		Now, whether or not they were abducted by these alleged extraterrestrials or aliens, be they of the reptilian, human, or a little gray persuasion, is another story.
		I know that there are many techniques of mind control, some of them which your average hypnotist is familiar with and may be very adept at, which can induce in people a frame of mind, especially under frightening or unusual circumstances, which may make them believe that something is happening to them which is not happening in precisely the way that they are led to believe that it is occurring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's leave the UFO aspect of it at that, even if the audience doesn't when we take calls.
		I want to ask you about something very real.
		It's called Project HAARP up in Alaska.
		And I have photographs of the antenna arrays, and it's incredible, absolutely incredible.
		HAARP is getting ready to go.
		It has two stated scientific objectives that I am aware of.
		One is to irradiate the ionosphere for really an unstated purpose, perhaps to see if they can actually affect the ionosphere with tremendous amounts of radiation.
		That's one.
		Two is to look for previously unmapped or unknown or secret, take your choice, underground tunnels and or bases.
		In other words, to focus in on the Earth.
		Is that your understanding?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as a matter of fact, I am, and there's a third purpose, which I'll briefly touch on too, but I'm holding a little clipping here from Aviation Week and Space Technology.
		This September 26, 1994 issue.
		On page 11, they had a little one-paragraph entry with the heading of Weird Science.
		And it deals with precisely this, Project HARP.
		And they say that it would provide earth-penetrating tomography over most of the northern hemisphere.
		Such a capability would permit the detection and precise location of tunnels, shelters, and underground hardened military facilities.
		So here's a verification from a very mainstream establishment journal that indeed that is exactly one of the purposes.
		Now, I want to come back to that in a minute, but I want to touch on the third purpose, which I have heard discussed and bandied about in some other circles, which appears to be in the process of charging up the ionosphere with this incredible amount of radio frequency electromagnetic energy,
		the intent seems to be to repel a layer of radioactively charged particles that is slowly settling closer and closer to the Earth's surface.
		This layer, as I understand it, occurred in the 1950s and 1960s when there was high-altitude nuclear testing by the United States.
		In particular, I'm not sure if the Soviets did.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're really saying they're trying to repair something they essentially broke?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I think so.
		I think this may be one of the unstated objectives.
		The other objectives, I believe, are real as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Before we get to those, suppose this were to continue, and this layer that you're talking about, which I don't understand.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I don't either.
		I don't have an advanced degree in the heart sciences.
		I'm a social scientist.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So there's no way to know for you to comment on what would occur should this layer not be repaired or continued.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I know that radioactive isotopes, especially long-lived variety, are very poisonous, and you wouldn't want them in your immediate environment.
		So if indeed this is the case and there is, if you will, a layer of some sort or a band of some sort of highly radioactive particles which were put there 20 or 30 years ago by the high altitude nuclear explosion set off by Pentagon,
		and if that's slowly coming closer to the Earth's surface where it could circulate in the atmosphere and conceivably be breathed by us and get into our drinking water and into the plants that we consume for food, then that could be a major public health crisis.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It absolutely would be, and you are the first one I have ever heard mention this as one of the things.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I have heard this mentioned in the alternative press.
		And if it's true, then that's a very serious situation.
		It bears looking into.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, I'm getting to the point, frankly, where I doubt a very great deal of what the government says on all of these topics.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you something.
		As I said, I'm a social scientist.
		I have a bachelor's degree in sociology, a master's in Latin American studies, and a Ph.D. in political science.
		I took a research methods seminar at the University of Florida when I was doing my master's degree.
		And in the middle of a discussion one day, one of my fellow graduate students expressed dismay at a certain United States government project which had involved, oh, I think a fair amount of deception and fraud.
		And the professor stopped class.
		Everything was so silent you could hear a pin drop.
		And he says, don't ever forget that governments lie.
		United States government is a government, and it lied too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, there simply is no question about it.
		Going back, it seems, as far as 1947, I don't for one second buy this whole Roswell business.
		I mean, I think it is an insult for them to come out and say, well, no, the story essentially sticks, the balloon story, well, because these permanent, not-to-be-destroyed records covering two full-time Benjamin Franklin,
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		after the convention that wrote the United States Constitution adjourned, he came out and there was a woman, if I remember the story correctly, who asked him and some of the other delegates how it went.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		And he said something in the effect of, well, madam, we've just given you a republic, if you can keep it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so that is correct.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		One of the things I address in my book in the first few pages, by the way, from the standpoint of the extreme secrecy, and I might remind the audience that researching this book was not easy.
		I hope it's easy to read.
		That was my intent.
		The work behind it was by no means always so easy.
		But one of the things I say is this type of secrecy, especially coming from the military, in the case of Roswell, in the case of the underground installations, which are very real, by the way, which are all over the country, does not inspire confidence.
		And in fact, I know from my studies in Latin American politics that it is just this climate of secrecy and official arrogance which is often associated With a trend towards military rule.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On that note, Richard, and we also have to be brief because.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		We'll come back to this second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		We'll come back to it.
		Indeed, we will.
		And more right after the news.
		This is Dreamland.
unidentified		Dreamland.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Underground bases and tunnels.
		We'll get back to that in just a moment.
		A lot of you have no idea that a bill has been introduced in the U.S. Senate that would get rid of the existing money we've got.
		Actually get rid of it.
		Substitute a new multicolored money and would make two forms of money.
		One you use inside the country, another outside the country.
		Now, two-tiered money systems generally are created by governments.
		Two years old.
		So, yes, I was involved.
		It was a kiddie story.
		Back now to Dr. Richard Sauter.
		Dr. Sauter.
		Are you there?
		I got a call saying that one more word about the AT ⁇ T secret bases and tunnels and the entire show was going to go off.
		So I guess we can't talk about that anymore.
		Just kidding.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You must say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just kidding.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I would like to follow up with this Project Hut information we were discussing before the break.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		May I ask one question that relates to it?
		Doctor, if they're not, in other words, I don't know how far into the earth they can look, but obviously at the higher levels of government, we know already where the tunnels are that we have dug.
		We know where the bases are underground that we have created.
		So, therefore, what are we looking for?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I would like to address that.
		First of all, I think the important thing to remember is that the government, the federal government we have is not monolithic.
		I have heard it described by one observer as the most complex human institution ever devised.
		For that reason, I don't rule out, for example, the possibility that given the extreme compartmentalization and the extreme degree of secrecy for covert projects in the military, the intelligence agencies, and the military-industrial complex,
		that there may be agencies, organizations, corporations who may have made or be making their own tunnels, shelters, or underground facilities that they may, with some degree of success, have kept secret from others.
		Now, this would then bring up the problem of detection.
		If you had a suspicion that your rival agency, even within the Pentagon, may have one or two or more secret facilities, the locations and functions of which they are disguising from you, you might have a motive to find them out.
		Now, if I understand the Air Force and the Army are the agencies behind the Project Heart.
		Is that correct?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's my understanding, yes.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		This leaves the Navy conspicuously out of the equation.
		Why?
		Presumably, the Navy might have some interest in this information as well.
		I have heard the scuttlebutters that you will hear in the corridors at New Age and UFO conventions and other places, that the Navy is actually a very major player in the UFO field and also in the underground excavation and construction business.
		Albeit they keep a very low profile and are not identified in the public eye with such activities.
		If there's any truth at all to that, then it may be that the Air Force and the Army feels that the Navy has a secret or two that it is keeping from them that they would like to find out.
		See, I don't make the assumption at all when I read this that Project HARP's tunnel and underground installation locating capability is designed exclusively to detect such facilities or installations in places like Russia or Russia or Korea,
		North Korea or China, for example, though I'm sure those places are locations where the Navy and the Air Force will look very carefully.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I can imagine they would want to know about such things, and that would make such a project understandable.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One other aspect of this that I really want to ask about.
		I know everybody's gonna sigh, but to me, Richard, the weather has seemed odd to the point of...
		And I know we have very short mortal lives, and we get a very short look at the...
		But it's too hot.
		It's just too hot in too many parts of the country.
		Weather patterns seem to have changed.
		Could HARP have any effect on the weather?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'm pretty sure it could, as I understand it from what I've read in the alternative press, including some of the information that's come out through PACE, for example, the Planetary Association for Clean Energy out of Ottawa, Canada.
		Dr. Mikleski is the director of that, and by the way, we'd be an excellent guest for this show.
		Through my readings in PACE and other alternative media outlets, it seems to me that indeed Hart has the capability to lift, physically lift through electrically charging Huge, huge areas of the atmosphere, physically lift vast areas of the atmosphere.
		Now, that is certainly going to change the circulation of winds, for example, in the upper atmosphere, which manifestly does influence the climate.
		So, I'm inclined to say that with my own informed way reading, that it is every likelihood of altering the climate.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you wouldn't, it seems to me, intentionally try and screw up the climate.
unidentified		So what about the...
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		But I don't know what we're dealing with.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But what about the possibility that they recognize, they, that there is something wrong with the weather, as you suggested there was with this magnetic portion of the atmosphere?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		And that there is an attempt to fix it.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Maybe so.
		And if that's the case, I hope it works.
		But, you know, it's been said that once Pandora's box is open, it's very hard.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Who somehow or another profit from the continuing mystery?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about that, Richard?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I can now divulge the absolute truth of this.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		In my previous lifetime, when I was negative seven years old, I went to Roswell and ate the record.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I think that's preposterous.
		Clearly, I assume Linda Howe was either a small child at the time also or not born.
		I think she's about my age.
		I'm 40 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And to even propose that records in 1947 were destroyed by somebody for future profit of something that had not yet even begun to germinate an interest in UFOs is also preposterous.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yes, well, I think the writer of the facts displays a refreshing naivete in thinking that people like Art Bell, as powerful as you are, would have access to secret files in the Pentagon and would be able to go in and willy-nilly wipe out entire years full of files.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'm impressed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, I can't even get Congressman Schiff on the phone.
		What are you talking about?
		I'm not powerful.
		But I am endlessly curious, and I would like to take some calls from people.
		They've got a lot of questions about underground, and by the way, everybody, you're welcome to fax those questions into.
		So let's pause for a second here, and we'll come to the phone when we go back.
		When we come back.
		If you would like to fax me, it's area code 702-727-8499-8499.
		If you would like to call, the only number not mentioned is the East of the Rockies line.
		That's 1-800-825-5033.
		Back in a moment.
		We all know that information is what it's all about.
		And for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
		It's called EufoFacts World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter packed with a lot of people.
		You can do so by calling absolutely fresh flowers.
		That's all they do.
unidentified		They call them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, miniature carnations, and they ship them directly from the flower farm to you.
		Now, what that means is you get a lot of flowers, zillions and zillions of flowers.
		You get more than you get from anybody else who advertises they sell flowers.
		Whether it's a florist or one of the 800 numbers and 900 numbers or whatever they are, nobody, nobody measures up to absolutely fresh flowers.
		Here is the deal in a nutshell.
		$39.
unidentified		$39.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not much money.
		You get the flowers.
		You get next day delivery by FedEx.
		They're knocking on the door next day anywhere.
		New S of A. I want a personalized note from you.
		Some flour, preservative, all of that for $39.95.
		Nothing.
		You're going to order flowers.
		Don't waste your time and money with anybody else.
		The number to call 24 hours a day, including now, is 1-800-562-6438.
		Are you writing?
		1-800-562-6438.
		Back now to Richard Souter.
unidentified		Richard?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you there?
		Yeah, I'm sure.
		Let's start interspersing a few phone calls in here, okay?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sounds good.
		Before we do that, why don't I give people the 800 number where they can order my book?
		Sure.
		The title of my book is Underground Bases and Tunnels.
		What is the government trying to hide?
		You may refer to it as Underground Bases and Tunnels.
		The number is 1-800-497-6646.
		That's 1-800-497-6646.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And it might be added, there are 50 pages of photographs and illustrations in the book.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I have a lot of illustrations, diagrams, photos that you will find absolutely fascinating, I guarantee you.
		And I think in the next edition of the book, I will have even more.
		I also have plenty of footnotes and documentation in the back of the book.
		For those who want to delve more deeply into this and follow the paper trail for themselves, there is one to be followed and to be delved into, and the documentation I provide will start you on your way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, to the phones.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Richard Sauter.
		Doctor, hi.
unidentified		Yes.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Doctor.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, ma'am, by the way?
unidentified		I'm in Albuquerque.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Albuquerque.
unidentified		Yes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Home of Congressman, missing Congressman Schiff.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Might we ask before you launch your question, how is your Albuquerque newspaper handling this?
unidentified		Well, I didn't receive the paper today because I wasn't here, so I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, fair answer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Anyway, your question.
unidentified		A few years ago, back in the 70s, I read a book called The Hollow Earth.
		Yes.
		And I was wondering, are you familiar with that and if that might have anything to do you're talking about underground bases and things, if maybe they're trying to fight out information about that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Sure, the Hollow Earth theory has been around for many years.
		It's had many different proponents and a number of different formulations.
		Essentially, it holds that the Earth is hollow, that there is an outer shell of maybe several hundred miles or maybe a couple thousand miles of thickness, and that inside there is another habitable realm, much as we know on the surface, with some kind of internal sun.
		On the face of it, it seems like a nice bit of science fiction.
		I don't presume to know the truth of this matter, not having ever been inside the Earth and not knowing anyone who has.
		Nevertheless, I'm a little out of hand, but there's no way that I can prove or disprove such a notion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I like the part about the underground sun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'd not heard that one before.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		If you look into the Hollow Earth literature to any extent, you'll run across that idea.
		Now, as to whether the underground construction activity of the federal government and other organizations is related to trying to find this Hollow Earth or find out about it, I don't know.
		I have heard and been told that some of this underground excavation and tunneling is designed to find, detect, explore other tunnel systems and other underground installations made by previous technological civilizations on the Earth many thousands of years before this present technological civilization,
		which according to these stories is not the first technological civilization, having been preceded by others, which we now give the names such as Atlantis and Lemuria.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, I've got a dumb question for you.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What would happen, well, I guess it's a two-parter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		First of all, what is the deepest tunnel going down, hole, I guess you'd call it, that anybody has that you're aware of, Doug?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, the mining industry, for example, in South Africa, their gold mines as much as three miles in the ground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Three miles?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's still not very far, is it?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's pretty far if you're down there.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is, but I mean, in terms of a hollow earth, you know.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		In terms of a hollow earth, it is certainly nowhere near one or two or three or four thousand miles.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		When you think about the Earth's diameter being, I think, somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000, 7,500 miles, three miles is barely scratching the surface.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What happens when you get down three miles?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are there any changes that are notable?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It gets hotter, but again, that depends on the local geology.
		If you're in a volcanically active area, it's going to get hotter sooner as you approach an area where there's magma, for example.
		And it's because of the pressure of the overburden, the rock and soil, that it tends to get hot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hot.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's been a recent theory, scientists speculated that the Earth did not have a magma core, but rather was actually solid, cold iron, roughly.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You know, I would be willing to concede that.
		I have read some people's theories which say that magma really does stay closer to the surface, and that much as what you just said, the Earth is not molten in the center, but is hotter towards the surface, and that its composition and the thermal characteristics change as one goes through the various strata and layers.
		I don't presume to know, and I don't know anyone who has, so to speak, taken a dive straight through the Earth.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do we have available to us technology that would allow us to literally burrow into the Earth, or I don't want to say bore into the Earth, but maybe lasers, maybe some sort of burrowing machine of some sort?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would there be a way, in essence, to start down and just keep going?
unidentified		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, really?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You could do that with the nuclear tunnel boring technology that was developed, at least in concept, at Los Alamos in the 1970s.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		One of the it essentially involves a tunnel boring device which is powered internally by a nuclear reactor, which provides the heat for the device to melt its way to the rock and soil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At about what rate?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I don't know precisely.
		The figure that I saw cited in the literature that I've examined would lead me to believe that it would be at a rate of about 300 feet per day.
		But the beauty of this thing is you could just set this puppy to working and point it straight down and it would go and go and go and go and go.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Why hasn't somebody done it?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they have.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's a good point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Maybe they have.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		The rumor that you were here, again, on the fringes of ufology, and which has been whispered to me in strictest confidence on the computer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait a minute, Richard.
		Hold it.
		I know good hooks when I hear them.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Stay right there.
		We're at the bottom of the hour.
		We'll be back.
		A rumor whispered to him in the strictest confidence.
		Coming up next, right here on this radio station, you're listening to Dreamland from the high desert.
		I'm Mark Bell.
unidentified		don't move Issues and ideals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Conversation and controversy.
unidentified		They just recently found out I just told my mom, so she was shocked.
		Very shocked.
		I think parents have a big influence on whether or not their children smoke.
		Because even if the parent says that they don't agree with it, it really doesn't have a lot of water.
		And you can say, I don't agree with you smoking, but when you light up five minutes later, it doesn't have a lot of water.
		Smoking, if you think you're old enough to start, you're smart enough to stop.
		A public service message from this station and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
		Ladies and gentlemen, here with their latest magic window open with a stone in my heart.
		Mama said, Stop, buckle up, stop.
		I said, my father, I'm just going to town.
		I didn't buckle up, now I'm feeling run down.
		I'm feeling run down.
		This hour of Art Bell was recorded for rebroadcast at this time.
		Please do not call.
		From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
		Call Art Now, toll-free, at 1-800-618-8255.
		1-800-618-TALK.
		First time callers, Area Code 702-727-1222.
		702-727-1222.
		Or the Wildcard line at Area Code 702-727-1295.
		727-1295.
		In the 702 area code.
		Now again, here's our bell.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		All right, the only kind of information.
		Oh, yeah, is that there are in reality some of these nuclear-powered tunneling machines in use and that work making tunnels here and there.
		Now, this is the kind of extremely soft information which I have been very careful to keep out of my book, Underground Bases and Tunnels.
		I am not very fond of this kind of information, which, by the way, is UFO field is rough.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, this may not have anything to do with UFOs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It may be our very own government, that government we just spent talking a while ago about, that might not tell us the whole story.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		And in fact, there was an excellent two-part series of articles entitled The Web of Darkness and Perceptions Magazine by Richard Boylan, who's based out of California, about the secret government, the shadow government.
		He went into detail, and it was interesting to me as someone with a PhD in political science that he listed agencies of the federal government that I had never heard about and didn't have the slightest idea existed.
		Some of the more obvious ones would be the CIA, National Security Agency, the FBI, IRS, FEMA, which is the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Reserve, NASA, the military intelligence agencies, the National Reconnaissance Office, and others.
		There are whole dozens of them.
		And in the aggregate, they do make up our shadow government or secret government, which does not play by the rules, by the checks and balances that were so carefully set out by the founding fathers in the U.S. Constitution.
		Sad to say, that is the state of affairs in which we find ourselves in 1995.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To the phones, you're on the air, and I understand you wish to remain anonymous, but tell us at least where you're calling from, please.
unidentified		From Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'm there this weekend, and I'm almost afraid to say any more, except that I have three close relatives who were rather high officials with American Telephone Telegraph, worked in a thing called the Filter Center in the Long Lines Division of AT ⁇ T. One was in construction, one was in personnel, and one was in technology.
		Two of them individually have explained to me in the past that there was a lot of underground construction, that all military communications during World War II went through the filter center.
		Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois mostly was where the centers were.
		And that after World War II, other exotic things went through this filter center until the FTS or the Federal Telephone Service was built up more.
		There was quite a bit more to it, but individually, two of them also confirmed that there were some wild things going on at Roswell, but it was some years later.
		And that's about all I can say about at this point.
		But there is construction that was done, was underground, quite a ways underground, a lot of communication underground.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
		Inside information.
		We appreciate what you told us, sir.
		Thank you.
		And especially anything about the phone company.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You know, I would say I was in Denver, Denver area last week, and one of the facilities I mentioned in my book as a possible location for an underground installation is Table Mountain, which is just north of Boulder, about 10 or 15 miles off of Route 36.
		If you're from the Denver-Boulder area, you may know what I'm referring to.
		This show airs in that area, doesn't it, right?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		This mountain, which in New Mexico or Arizona would be called more of a Mesa, I believe, it's a very flat, low, long, flat hill, is run by the Commerce Department.
		And once you approach it and get off of Route 36, there's a sign which very prominently at the top says Commerce Department.
		And then it says under that in small letters, National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration, National Telecommunications Research Institute.
		And it also has a reference to some kind of gravity observation or gravity research, all under the auspices of the Commerce Department.
		And there's an antenna field on top of this mesa or Turkin Mountain.
		And if you drive around on the backside, and there is a periphery, a dirt road that runs all around the periphery, on the backside, there are two huge microwave dishes, very, very large.
		One pointed straight up, evidently, to a geostationary satellite.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Correct.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		And the other point, it would seem to be due east.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		So evidently there is an electronic link from...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold it.
		Richard.
		A geostationary satellite, by its very nature, has to be over the equator.
unidentified		Well, I don't know where the hell this is pointing up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then that's quite a mystery because you see.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It's pointing straight up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		uh-uh, that's not pointed at any geostationary satellite, then.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, then, thank you for correcting me.
		Well, then I guess the question is, what is it pointing up?
		It is pointing straight up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Damn good.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		The other antenna is pointing through east.
		It is a very large dish.
		Boy, I don't know.
		It's probably easily 60 feet across.
		A very, very large one.
		My guess is there's something underground there.
		In any event, that is all run by the Commerce Department.
		So maybe you ought to have Ron Brown on the shelf for Alameda Avenue, and it is between the two.
		And there is an underground facility there.
		When you drive around, you'll even notice the odd air vent or exhaust back coming out from underground if you look closely through the fence, as well as some large, conspicuous antennas of various kinds.
		So, yes, there's more underground in Colorado than the NORAD Center at Cheyenne Mountain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I want to move you on to another fascinating topic.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, if you could go into a volcano and begin just going down like Pad Boone toward the center of wherever you were headed, how far could you probably go?
		I mean, how deep do volcanoes go when they're inactive?
		What possibilities are there for descent?
		They had this little robot they tried to descend into one recently, and it tripped and fell.
		Couldn't get up.
		They had to rescue it.
		But it's a good line of discussion.
		What about volcanoes?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You know, you're asking the wrong man.
		As I said, I don't really have any substantial expertise in the earth sciences, and I don't have a formal academic background.
		So I'm afraid I'll have to pass on that one.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		One would imagine them as possible ways, though, of reaching deep underground locations.
		Well, I will say this.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		In an area where you have extinct volcanoes, you would certainly have lava tubes that would have had all of the lava evacuated out of them as the volcano ceased erupting.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Because in New Mexico, for example, we have those types of tubes, and also other areas here in the West where you have the empty tubes.
		After the magma stops flowing, the tubes empty out.
		So you do have these passageways that there is no question about whatever.
		And they are associated with extinct volcanoes.
		My question is how deep they go, and I can answer that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, then back, let me back up a little bit.
		We were talking about boring directly down into the ground.
		Now, scientists have a lot of natural curiosity, and politicians have lots of paranoia.
		And we went through the Cold War.
		It just seems to me that if there's a way to burrow down with nuclear technology, that either we've done it or they're neglectful for not having tried.
		One of the two.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		So you agree with that?
		My best guess would be that there could easily be these nuclear-powered tunneling machines that are being secretly employed.
		However, I cannot document that now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I know, Richard, it's on the edge, but I mean, what about all these reports of hum in Taos here in the Valley?
		think we talked about a lot of I think I told you this story.
		And it hummed so badly, he had to tear the damn thing down.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		You know, there's an anecdote in Whitley Striper's latest book, which is entitled Breakthrough, which is fascinating, by the way.
		I recommend it to the audience.
		You should check it out.
		He and a friend were sitting in his family's cabin in upstate New York one afternoon or morning, a number of years ago, and suddenly blood started pouring out of his friend's forehead.
		Actually, the forehead was bleeding through the pores.
		Very unusual.
		I actually spoke with Whitley about this incident on the phone.
		Actually, he mentioned it to me in the course of very graciously consenting to provide a blurb for the cover of the second printing of my book.
		And I'm inclined to believe that that could easily be due to his friend being in the camp of an ultrasonic being, perhaps being employed for a subterranean excavation in the near vicinity of where Whitley Street was living at the time.
		I do, in my book, indicate that the Defense Nuclear Agency targeted upstate New York as one of the areas where they wanted to build very deep underground military installations back in the 1970s.
		And they may have done it.
		One of the technologies which has been explored by the military-industrial complex over the last quarter century for boring tunnels underground is precisely using ultrasound to pulverize the rock.
		Of course, with ultrasound or pulverized rock, it could fairly easily rupture a capillary membrane as well.
unidentified		Absolutely.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, back to the lines, and the first-time caller line.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on the air with Dr. Richard Sauter.
unidentified		Hi.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there.
unidentified		Yeah, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Listen, you guys are talking about subjects here, and as the government, you're opening the field up, and as the government hears you, they're going to constantly be watching and hearing you guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So who cares?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, you heard something called the First Amendment.
unidentified		You don't want people to hear about what's going on, because if you spill the beans, there's going to be a big thing here.
unidentified		Well, so who cares?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, as Richard just pointed out, there is this thing called the First Amendment, and we can talk about and explore areas and will on this program exactly like this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		If some beans get spilled, then too bad.
unidentified		Because I've been affiliated with the military, and I tell you right now.
unidentified		When you start getting too close to information, then all of a sudden people get nervous.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, thank you.
		I don't know.
		Does that sound like a warning to you, Richard?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, but you know, for his edification, if he's in the military, then he took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies domestic and foreign.
		And let me just read you one sentence from that Constitution, which this gentleman and every other person affiliated with the military has sworn to uphold.
		Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for redress of grievances.
		And if he or others in the military does not believe in this article, then they ought to disavow their oath and leave that institution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'd like to add, too, that also applies to the phone company.
		We'll be right back.
		You don't have to put up with it.
		Well, I know a lot of you do, but you don't have to.
		What am I talking about?
unidentified		Hard, foul, water.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		One, eight, two, back to Dr. Sauter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, are you there?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'm right here, Arch.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try and pay a lot of attention to the phones, if we can.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Before we do that, why don't I give out the 800 number so people can order this book?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It's to order a copy of Underground Bases and Tunnels, 1-800-497-6646.
		That's 1-800-497-6646.
		and we'll try to get that in again before the hour's over.
		How much?
		I'll also add our Well, it sells for $13.95 plus the shipping and handling charge.
		All right.
		I might also add that since the last time I was on your show, I've relocated from the Albuquerque area to Northern Arizona.
		And for those who would like to write to me with information, I'd be glad to hear from you.
		You may do that by writing to Richard Sauder, S-A-U-D-E-R, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
		That's Richard Sauter, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
		And if you don't mind, we get that address on once more before we close the hour.
		And that way people can contact me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, good.
		I'm sure they will want to.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
unidentified		Hi.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you, sir?
unidentified		I'm in Ohio.
		All right.
		The question I had was, and this may be a question that you cover earlier in the show and I didn't catch.
		On a TV show I saw on NBC, they had an abductee on there, and he was taken to an underground base.
		And some information that he got while the abductee was down there is that the aliens and the military were both getting ready for something, but he did not know what that something was.
		Could you shed any light on that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Sauter?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there are an increasing number of these stories filtering out now of people reportedly being abducted and taken to underground installations.
		The story seems to have three basic forms in which it appears.
		In one type of scenario, a person is abducted by special United States military forces and taken underground, and the only beings that they see appear to be terrestrial humans working for the United States military.
		In another formulation, the only beings that they see from beginning to end are the little grays and or the reptilians.
		And in yet a third formulation, in a third form, they interact with both seeming terrestrial humans in the employ of or members of the United States military, and they also see a variety of extraterrestrial alien beings, including little grays and or reptilians and or extraterrestrial humans.
		Now, what you have just related about this coming whatever it is that the alien military are getting ready for, I can't say anything about because I don't know what it might be.
		I can't even prove to you that there are aliens.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Have you heard any of the same rumors or vibrations?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Oh, sure.
		I mean, you can even pick this up in Raymond Fowler's books, or the one, I'm thinking of one in particular called The Watchers, where the aliens that this woman, Betty Andre, interacts with, intimate that the Earth is fast approaching some sort of great period of crisis and cataclysm.
		And it seems that biological life may not be viable, and so they are in the process of collecting representative samples.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		That will bring us to another subject, but again, I want to lay on the phones heavily.
		East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
		Hi.
		Call us toll-free at 1-800-618-8255.
unidentified		Hold it, hold it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We're going to have to start all over again.
		We have one fixed, fast rule, Owen, and it is that we don't allow you to give your last name on the air.
		So let's begin again and just say this is Owen from where in Minnesota?
unidentified		Oh, Marshall's my middle name, so don't worry about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		I'm from Princeton, Minnesota.
		Home of Connie Mitsuki, the best-time radio commercial host in Twin Cities.
		There you are.
		Okay.
		I want to know about if the Navy's involved in this, there must be a series of underwater lakes and streams.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Is that true?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Or A series of underwater lakes and streams.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Of course there is.
		I live in the desert.
		If it wasn't for underground water, sir, I couldn't live here.
unidentified		Well, I mean...
		Is it as diverse?
		Is it sound?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, is it Is it as diverse as it sounds?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, is the underground right with large bodies of moving water?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		You know, I can't answer that.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I will tell you what I have been told, including by a couple of one ex-Navy personnel, that there are on both coasts of the United States underwater submarine bases such that submarines can enter the inland area underwater and then once the inland surface in underground facilities that are immediately adjacent to the coastal areas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Now, that sure would make sense.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		This is something that we've seen in science fiction and James Bond type movies and TV programs over the years, and I think it exists.
		In fact, I had one gentleman call me when I did another talk show a couple of three months ago and say that Whittier, Alaska is one such place.
		I have never been to Whittier, Alaska, so I can't speak to the truth of that.
		But yeah, it does seem feasible.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is one that I'm going to throw at you, Doctor, and it concerns what I have dubbed the quickening.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There is, whether you want to talk about the weather, geologic activity, sociological activity, crime, jitteriness.
		There's sort of a building, anticipatory crescendo headed toward something and speeding up.
		And I don't know what else to call it, so I've called it the quickening.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me say that there may be a biological basis for this, and we may be sensing what is actually happening on a molecular and cellular level in our bodies.
		I'll give you an example of what I mean.
		There was a little news item that appeared in the Albuquerque, New Mexico paper a couple of weeks ago, indicating that biological research teams that have gone into the vicinity of Chernobila in Russia, where the nuclear disaster occurred back in the 1980s,
		have discovered that the mice there have mutated so quickly under the pressure or the impact of the extreme radioactive contamination of their environment, that the native rice mice in the Chernobyl region have had such a great change in their DNA that their DNA is now different from other related species of mice.
		So much different that it varies from the DNA of related species of mice more than the DNA of mice differs from the DNA of rats.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		That's in 10 years.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		So I would assume that if radioactivity can have that kind of influence on the genetic code of mice, that the pervasive radioactivity is having an effect on human DNA as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would that...
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It could have all kinds of change.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, we could end up with all sorts of little monstrous creatures that we did not want.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that, I will reiterate, as I mentioned earlier in the program, I think that with nuclear technology, that we have opened Pandora's box willy-nilly, and like it or not, we are now dealing with the consequences.
		Could be.
		It could be between the nuclear contamination and agrochemical contamination, by the way, which is equally as pervasive.
		Some of the agrochemicals are extremely long-lived, very powerful, and by the way, have a profound impact on our biochemistry.
		And I think between radioactive contamination and chemical contamination in the environment from dioxins and agrochemicals and a whole richest brew of organic chemicals that have been developed for the most part in the 20th century and which are widely used now all over the world, that we are surely undergoing a period of great change, which is maybe not so apparent to us because we're living in the middle of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Doctor, hold on just one moment.
		I would just like to tag that as we go into a break here with a very shocking figure that came out about, oh, it was about a half a year ago.
		And that is that since World War II, you all bear this in mind based on what the doctor said, since World War II, the statistics for cancer for men, non-smoking-related incidences of cancer, have gone up 300%.
		Repeat, 300%.
		This is non-smoking-related cancer.
		Now, Gee, what do you think might be causing that?
		North American trading has done a very wise thing.
		You see, not very long ago, we...
		Now, be sure.
		We apparently have a lot of researchers that listen to this program Because we've got some questions from researchers for our guest, Dr. Sauer, coming up in just one moment.
		GMX is quite simply, it's hard to beat that.
		Call them now at 1-800-4060-GMX.
		Call now, 1-800-4060-GMX.
		And the following comes from Mark Davenport, who of course is himself a researcher.
		And he said, Art, here's a photo of those radio telescopes near Boulder, Colorado.
		I took it myself, Mark Davenport.
		And here it is.
		And by God, they are aimed straight up.
		Now, I know something about geosynchronous satellites.
		They are above the equator.
		They require from the Boulder area something in the area of 38 to 40 degrees of angle to look geosynchronous.
		What they could possibly be looking at that would be straight up beats me.
		But I'll tell you this.
		It's not a geosynchronous satellite.
		There's no question about that.
		So there you have that.
		And we've got a couple of other very relevant questions.
		One is from John Rhodes, himself a researcher and a previous guest on Dreamland.
		Art, please ask Richard about the use of gravity anomaly maps in determining the location of underground facilities.
		I've used them in my own research and found them invaluable.
		Hi to Richard.
		What do you think?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I think you have to use what works.
		And looking for geophysical anomalies is certainly one way you can approach this.
		I have not to this point.
		I, being a social scientist, have taken a slightly different pack in my research.
		Social scientists are very prone to just going right to the government documents and looking for information by training and by inclination.
		That's what we do, and that's what I did.
		And I dug up quite a lot, as it turned out.
		I by no means wish to say that this is the only way to approach the issue.
		There's more than one way to skin a check.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's more than one way to skin a researcher, too.
		if a congressman cannot get to the bottom of what happened at Roswell, I wonder, you say you've obtained a lot of information from the government.
		They must send it out by accident because...
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I haven't gotten to do this stuff, believe me.
		I've gotten believing that someone in their divine wisdom determined that the great unwarranted masses could get their focus their eyeballs on if they ever got around to ungluing themselves from the O.J. Simpson trial and actually going to a library and reading what it's there, which is my case.
		So, yeah, unfortunately that's the case.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've wounded me, Richard.
		I'm a talk show host.
		I do a regular talk show during the week.
		I have to watch the O.J. Simpson trial.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Hey, I listen to your show sometimes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I even admit I'm fascinated by it, so that puts me in that category.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, maybe if it's your professional duty, that's what I'm saying.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I'm not going to use that cop out.
		All right.
		Stay right there, Richard.
		that's what got me started in it but uh i i admitted i am addicted to the trial to the drama to the uh the sort of And you do get addicted, and I admit it freely.
		And I don't apologize for it, but I understand, nevertheless, what Richard was saying.
		Okay, break here at the bottom of the hour.
unidentified		This is Dreamland, a program...
unidentified		From 9 a.m. to 11 for Radio 3DC, 512.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Social Vision Club here in Washington.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You'll be to the telephone and the bank.
unidentified		One, cost of doing business.
		And you base everything on that.
		And when somebody comes along arbitrarily and says, that's going to cost you an additional, whatever it turns out to be, you've got to get that money somewhere.
		And a lot of people say, well, why did a business owner just eat it?
		He makes too much money anyway.
		It's not fair you should have a business and I don't.
		There's still a significant number of people, I think, who think that way.
		And It's just not the real world.
		I'm glad you called.
		Thanks for the story.
		We'll take a quick break and be back with more after this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to the EIB Network.
unidentified		Wouldn't it be great to finish the day with energy to spare?
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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ginsana.
unidentified		There are lots of lower-priced imitations, but remember, half the price may mean half the quality.
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		Ginsana at drugstores, supermarkets, and health food stores.
		For a free brochure, call 800-777-2000.
		800-777-2000.
		This is Talk 102.
		We're fighting to the bank.
		We'd love to hear from you.
		Every now and then, you're going to need a friend.
		And we're here for you.
		Here for you.
		We are working harder.
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		Doing it all for you.
		Doing it all for you.
		Thank you.
		We'd love to hear from you.
		Okay, so your checking account doesn't bounce and you've got a question.
		What do you do?
		Good news.
		You can call Audrey at Bartonville Bank.
		A question about your statement?
		Call Audrey.
		A question about a deposit?
		Call Audrey.
		She's there, always ready to help make your life a little easier.
		After all, that's what being a better bank is all about.
		If you need anything at all, just give us a call.
		We'd love to hear from you.
		Call Bartonville Bank, 697-2100, Equal Housing Lender Member FDIC.
		At Kroger, we like to say serving you comes first.
		But this week, we're serving you and someone else with our buy one, get one free sale.
		For example, if you like hot and spicy, but your special someone only likes mild, have it both ways.
		Buy one, get one free.
		You prefer prime scented, but he'll only use lemon fresh?
		Buy one, get one free.
		It's the only sale around that'll help save your money and possibly your relationship.
		Kroger, serving you comes first.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Talk radio with all the rough edges gone is kind of like eating all your food without spice.
		It is filling, but it's awfully bland.
		This is Art Bell, host of Coast to Coast AM, where we don't screen calls, so it gets pretty spicy.
		It's live talk in the early morning hours.
		Actually, the middle of the night.
		Right here on Talk 102, Central Illinois' Talk Radio every Tuesday through Saturday morning, beginning at 3 a.m.
unidentified		Coast to coast AM here on Talk 102.
		Talk 102.
		How are you?
		Rush Limbaugh, New York, on the EIB Network.
		A little bit about Henry Foster here, a man who has performed abortions, but only, only, only.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Case of rape and incest.
unidentified		Not too many of them.
		It's no big deal.
		And he also...
		You know, he's really good on abstinence and...
		You just...
		The questions are rather obvious, are they not?
		Did the president appoint Mr. Foster because he knew Foster had committed abortions and to send a signal to the left?
		Or did he appoint him because he didn't know that Foster had committed abortions?
		Note that I didn't say before.
		And 24 hours a day.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Sauter, are you there?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'm right here.
unidentified		Good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Back to the lines quickly.
		West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
unidentified		Hi.
		Yes.
		Thank you very much for taking my call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You betcha.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are you?
unidentified		I'm calling from Phoenix, Arizona.
		I'm Ariel.
		I used to be with Military Intelligence Unit down in Pasadena, right next to Roseville.
		No kidding.
		And we used to take our little tour of duty for annual training out at a little place called Fort Irwin.
		I was wondering if your guest could answer a couple of questions.
		Sir, do you know about Goldstone Regional Deep Space Tracking Station and the Western Command Center?
		And were you aware that President Bush visited the command center at the same time that Gorbachev visited the same Southern California area?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I didn't know that.
		I am familiar with the Goldstone facility.
		Never visited it, but I've set up it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What can you tell us about what's there?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Does this relate in some way to an underground facility?
unidentified		Well, I was not privy to the facilities in particular as far as any subterranean, but I was kind of wondering if he had come up on any kind of information in reference to that.
		If you will look at the map, I see the Trump is just right across the way from Fort Irwin.
		But you also see that Fort Irwin is surrounded by various military installations and it's up on a higher elevation level than the Los Angeles basin.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I get the feeling that you're trying to tell us something that you can't quite tell us all the way.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that about right?
unidentified		Well, this is true.
		There is one thing that the military does do.
		They plan ahead of time.
		In particular, they do plan in case of emergency.
		And our basin units happen to be stationed in the basin.
		We always went up over the mountain to our duty station.
		Preassigned locations, of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I'm going to leave it right there before you say something you might regret or I push you into it.
		Dr. Sauter, interesting.
		A lot of, I've got a lot, a whole stack of faxes here.
		People who have been in the military and are probably saying things they ought not be saying about underground bases.
		There really is a lot to this, isn't there?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		There is.
		And even if you can't read all the faxes on the air, since I assume they sent them to you for my feedback, if you don't mind sending them along to me or copies of them to me, I would appreciate it.
		Sure, there are many, many underground installations, some of them very sophisticated and deep all over the country.
		And they have been very carefully constructed, very carefully maintained, and kept very secret for the most part.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, here's a question.
		Doctor, here's a question that's right down your alley.
		Sure.
		What would our government do if they fired up the HAARP project and they found the earth was riddled with tunnels and underground bases that they didn't know were there before?
		Would they run to the phone and call the Art Bell Show, or would they simply pull a Roswell and say nothing of any significance was found underground?
		That comes from South South Apartment.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I'd go for option B. I'm not at all inspired by the various cover-ups, not only with respect to Roswell, but other things that we've seen in the post-World War II period.
		I just don't believe that we'd be likely to hear much about it.
		My guess is that there could easily be other tunnel systems out there, perhaps a very ancient origin.
		And it's just dismaying.
		I hope that you'll have Richard Hoagland on soon to talk about his latest findings on the moon.
		He's been passed a very high-resolution infrared photograph from the Clementine mission, which has now had a very high degree of secrecy clamped on it.
		But it appears that the moon is probably riddled with huge artificial structures.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Not only that, and it's been covered up.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It's been kept quiet.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		The Pentagon has completely disguised this and still has NASA.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, in an earlier space mission, this is science, not speculation, they actually, and I forget which mission it was, I'm sorry, but they allowed part of a space vehicle that was not to be used on the return trip to go down and smash into the moon.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I remember that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, when it did, I'm told reliably that they heard geologic vibrations that went on for hours and hours, which could only mean that there's something below the moon's surface that we don't know about.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, it seems that the Clementine infrared photograph penetrated the surface, and that indeed I saw Hoagland's presentation in Los Angeles last month, and it seems that there may be level after level after level of artificial construction going down and down and down on the moon.
		And if that's the case, then the military and NASA certainly know about it, and they are covering all of that up completely, or at least to the extent they can.
		And it's a great shame because it would be the story of this or any century.
		And we deserve to know.
		After all, it's our tax dollars that pay for these space probes.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This kind of thing really kills me.
		It really kills me.
		On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
		Hello, turn your radio off, please.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello, where are you?
unidentified		Art?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Here's San Diego.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		San Diego.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Hello, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hi.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		From San Diego.
		I'm not going to give my name because at a seminar, I ran into a physicist who worked with the Navy.
		He didn't say he was in the Navy.
		But he says the HART project, as far as he knows, and he's working on it, is to alter the jet stream.
		So when you were talking about maybe it had something to do with this heat, I recalled what he said.
		I did ask him about the tunnels, and he said he didn't know anything about the tunnels, but he does know they're experimenting with the jet stream.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Great.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Dr. Sauter, again, I guess it's not your area, but if one were to alter the path of the jet stream, one would indeed dramatically or even catastrophically alter the weather, wouldn't they?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if that's the case, then we could be looking at severe climate change in the near term with perhaps unforeseeable consequences.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		It does not inspire confidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm told, and this again is an area I know you're beginning to get into, that our Earth's ecological balance, is it, would you describe it as very tentative, that very small changes could actually eventually cause man or plants or trees or animals or all of it to disappear?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would it take a very small change or a very large?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		We may already be into a period of large change.
		I'll give you an example.
		Starting in the popular press, oh, about three or four years ago, there was a whole state of articles about the drastic decline of amphibian populations, salamanders, toads, frogs, all over the planet In every type of climate, at every elevation, on every continent, including in North America.
		Now, the interesting thing about amphibians is that they are smacked dead in the middle of the food chain.
		I submit the food chain is like any other chain.
		You break a link in the middle of it, and it essentially becomes a chain that has no power or strength to speak of.
		We are at the top of that chain, and will it help us?
		Because when the ecology begins to unravel, as it appears it may be doing already, then I would think it's only a matter of decades at the most before there would be very, very large changes, and we may have already begun that process.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		On that note, we'll take a break right here.
		Boy, that's pretty ominous stuff, but I'm not altogether sure that I disagree with it.
		Dr. Richard Sauter is my guest.
		His book, Underground Bases and Tunnels, What is the Government Trying to Hide?
		We're going to give his number and address to get book and all of that sort of thing in just a moment.
		So if you've not yet done it, run and get a pencil, please, right now.
		Many of you health-conscious folks know about antioxidants and their amazing health benefits.
		Vitamin C is probably the most famous of these.
		UCLA scientists found that antioxidant vitamin C can help avoid cancer, strokes, heart attacks, and increase life expectancy an average of five years.
		Well now, there are new antioxidants on the market.
		Scientists say they're 20 times the power of vitamin C and 50 times the power of vitamin E, another antioxidant.
		They're called pycnoginals.
		Pycnoginals, the super antioxidants.
		You'll want to remember that name if you're a health-conscious individual.
		Why?
		Well, according to Richard Passwater, Ph.D., and an authority in the field, you're being bombarded by something called free radicals, toxins, environmental and otherwise, that break down your cells and damage tissue.
		They cause you to age faster, develop stiff joints, and wrinkle sooner than you ought to.
		How can you fight the free radicals that bombard you every day?
		Antioxidants and pycnoginols.
		They're the most effective antioxidant you can buy today.
		To order this amazing new food supplement I'm taking, call Natural Health at 1-800-856-1119.
		These pycnoginols are pharmaceutical grade, made from 95% pure grapeseed extract, the purest on the market, giving you the most benefits.
		Call 1-800-856-1119.
		That's 1-800-856-1119.
		We all know that information is what it's all about, and for those of you who like looking over the edge, well, I've got some really hot news for you.
		It's called UFOFAC's World Report, and it's a hot monthly newsletter packed with just the kind of information you've been looking for.
		The latest hard data on UFO sightings, encounters, abductions, and more.
		Gleaning information from around the country and around the world, UFOFAC's newsletters put together by a staff of professional journalists.
		It's sent to you every month so you get the latest developments on this timely and elusive subject.
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		Find out what's happening from government cover-ups to the nuts and bolts of encounters and abductions.
		Call 1-800-830-9830.
		That's 1-800-830-9830.
		Operators are waiting to take a credit card 24 hours a day or send your check for $19.95 to box 2757 Anaheim, California, 92814.
		The publisher guarantees you'll find UFOFACs indispensable or your money back.
		That's 1-800-830-9830.
		Next week on Dreamland, Area 51 expert Glenn Campbell, the guy who probably knows more about Area 51 and has spent more time up there than just about anybody else alive.
		Don't miss that.
		Area 51, or should I say Area 51's Glenn Campbell?
		That's not quite right, but it's pretty close.
		Not the singer, but the guy who knows about Area 51.
		Now, Dr. Sauter, we promise, so they've got their pencils ready.
		Underground bases and tunnels, what's the government trying to hide?
		How do they get it?
		And then how do they contact you?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		You can order my book by dialing 1-800-497-6646.
		That is 1-800-497-6646.
		Now, if you have information you would like to forward to me, you may write to me, Richard Fowder, S-A-U-D-E-R, at 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
		That is, Richard Sauder, 1109 South Plaza Way, Suite 173, Flagstaff, Arizona, 86001.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		To our east of the Rockies line, you're on the air with Dr. Sauter.
		Where are you, please?
unidentified		Hey, Fort Myers, Florida.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Earlier you mentioned gravitational anomalies, and that brought to mind the story my parents told me when I was a lot younger.
		A place in central Florida where a lot of people used to drive to a hill, and they would drive down to the other side of the hill.
		They could put their car in park, and then the car would roll backwards uphill.
		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
unidentified		Yes, and I'd never heard about that before, perhaps.
unidentified		It seemed pretty common to them, and it was kind of a hotspot for the kids to go.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		How?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		There's a gentleman named William Corlett who's written a book, a series of books about anomalies of all kinds.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But the size of a magnetic anomaly to pull a car backwards up a hill is almost unimaginable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It would have to be strong and very localized.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Evidently, around the planet here and there, there are nodal points or junctions, if you will, of conjunctions of energies, of forces that produce some unusual effects.
		And I don't have a good explanation for them, but I have read similar accounts.
		I have read references to this place in Florida before.
		We live on an unusual planet.
		And everything you're taught in Freshman Chemistry 101, 102 does not necessarily rigorously hold in every case at every time.
		The universe is a strange place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, we're running out of time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So if you were to give everybody out there a warning based on all you know and all you think you know about what's coming, what would you say to people?
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I think this is the time for prayer.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, boy.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		I don't say that because I think that the cause has glaught.
		I say it's a time for prayer because I think it's a time when we as individuals and as members of society need to do a spiritual gut check.
		I think we also need to do more meditation in a quiet, prayerful, reverential way.
		This is advice, by the way, that I'm trying myself to follow in recent days, weeks, and months.
		I agree with you that we are living in a period of seemingly frantic change when it's hard to understand what is happening, when it's becoming clear to more and more thinking people that so much has been kept secret from us.
		We have been lied to in so many ways and for so long by the very people who told us that they had our best interest at heart.
		And we're beginning to find out that they are not to put too fine a point on it, duplicitous, and just very smooth and practiced liars.
		And maybe not much more than that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, let me say this in closing.
		I kind of like it here above ground.
		And I don't know what's below ground.
		Maybe many tunnels and bases and all the rest of it.
		But I wouldn't want to have to be forced to live there.
		And I can't imagine anybody, including even government guys, would.
		So we better not foul what we have up here.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, there's the old classics, the alternative three book, which you'll see kicking around sometimes and for sale at UFO workshops and so forth.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		And in that scenario, going underground was one of the ways which the elite plan to save themselves.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I don't doubt that for one second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Richard, we're out of time.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, sir.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's it.
		Clock says we've got to go.
		Thank you, Richard.
richard sauder ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for having me.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right, take care.
		Richard Sauter, author of Underground, Bases and Tunnels.
		Just a quick note, for heaven's sakes, don't let it go.
		The five Roswell photographs are going to be published in our newsletter.
		The next edition, we are on deadline.
		Don't wait.
		Order now.
		It's $29.95 a month.
		I think perhaps next month, we're going to publish a photograph of Max the Crystal's skull.
		We're going to publish a photograph of my studio and any other anomalies or interesting things that occur between now and then.
		The number for the newsletter is 1-800-917-4278.
		Near deadline for the Roswell photographs.
		1-800-917-4278.
		It's been a dream.
		Thank you.
		From the high desert, everybody.
		Good night.
		This has been a dream.
unidentified		Tired of hearing the bad news every day from the mainstream media and looking for the news beyond the headlines?
		Then join me, Michael Reagan Weeknights, here on Talk 102.
		Every weeknight at 9 p.m., we open the toll-free lines and talk to you in central Illinois about today's political events and headlines.
		It's easy to get on board, too.
		Just pick up the phone, smile, and dial.
		Join me, Michael Reagan Weeknights at 9 here on Talk 102.
		The Michael Reagan Show, every weeknight from 9 till midnight on Talk 102.
		The Michael Reagan Show, every weeknight from 9 till midnight on Talk 102.
		It's thought that arthritis occurs when the body's immune system mistakes tissues in the joints for foreign material and attacks them.
		This can lead to painful swelling and deterioration of cartilage.
		Well now scientists are beginning to fight the disease on a genetic level.

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