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June 25, 1995 - Art Bell
01:42:24
Dreamland with Art Bell - Angels - John Ronner
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Welcome to Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience
not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped, and yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
This is Dreamland.
This indeed is Sunday evening and Dreamland underway once again.
Hi everybody, I'm Art Bell.
Great to be here on a Sunday evening as you know one of my favorite Areas of investigation without question a little bit of a difference this evening Linda Bolton Howe is not with us Actually, we have no idea where she is Not in touch So in a moment.
We'll be going to our main topic with John Rahner way back in Tennessee And we're going to be talking about angels Angels are absolutely all the rage, and a remarkable number of people, almost 70% of the American public, believe in angels.
Isn't that a shocking stat?
Actually, I believe 69% believe in angels.
And in a moment, John Rahner, he knows, he's written about angels.
Alright.
About John Runner.
John has been writing for publications since age 15, when an article of his appeared in a National Astronomy magazine.
After receiving his journalism degree in 1973, John worked as a reporter and an editor for newspapers in Florida, Georgia, and Alabama, covering primarily the police and court beats.
He repeatedly won awards for his news writing from the Associated Press and other news organizations.
John has written several books on the subject of angels.
I believe his first was, Do You Have a Guardian Angel?
His latest is, The Angels of Cokeville.
And there have been more and more and more reported encounters across our nation with angels.
So let's go find out about it.
Here from, I believe, Tennessee.
No, wait a minute.
Let me put him over here.
Here from Tennessee is John Rahner.
John, are you there?
I sure am, Art.
Wonderful!
You are in Tennessee, aren't you?
Oh yes, very much so.
Right in the middle of it, near Nashville.
It's been, what, John, about a year since we've had you on the program?
I think it was about a year ago in April.
It's almost hard to know where to start.
But I guess we could start with the survey.
When was that survey taken, John, the one that showed almost 70% of America believes in angels?
That was taken in December of 93.
Time Magazine, as some of the listeners may remember, did a cover story back in December of 93 on the phenomenon of angels.
The country was just beginning to wake up to the significance of the subject.
We still had most of the major television network specials lying in the future at that point, but People were beginning to realize that this was a topic
worth looking at.
In that particular survey, the 69% raised a lot of eyebrows that that larger slice of
the population believed in the existence of angels.
Also in that survey, 46% of the respondents, and this was a scientific poll of course that
could be extrapolated out to the whole population, 46%, almost half, felt that they had a personal
So you're talking about, well my goodness, 40% of the American population, we've got 260 million people in this country, so that's over 100 million there.
Just over 30% felt that they had had interactions with this guardian spirit, whatever it was.
In other words, a close encounter with an angel of the third kind.
Yeah, and of course, unfortunately, the poll didn't go into detail as to what kind of encounter that was, but other
polls have.
They range from seeing a luminous being, you might think of that as the angel in its native glory appearing,
hearing a voice coming out of thin air, warning you at an important moment to do something or just comforting you,
having an overpowering hunch to do something that seems against all logic at the moment but later is the right
thing to do, physical intervention, hearing celestial music, incredible
coincidences that some people feel were made in heaven.
old category of stories in which people feel that angels disguise themselves as mortals in order to intervene and
the list goes on and on So we don't know exactly how that breaks down from that
poll, but other polls give us a clue There's a lot going on. Why don't we begin with what is a
very going to be a very hard question, but very important All right, what's an angel?
Well, actually there is a strict definition that comes down to us from the medieval philosophers and of course this is
this was their opinion The philosophers felt that an angel is a superior
Spiritual being and I guess for best results. We probably should just break that down
Superior, we're talking about something above us on the evolutionary scale.
Of course, in medieval philosophy, evolution was not a concept yet, so to them it would be something they would probably have said higher in the cosmic order.
Okay, so I want to be very clear.
I want to be very clear.
This is not a former I'm glad you brought that up because there's a lot of confusion about that.
In the strict definition, you're talking about a non-human superior being, a completely higher order of being.
You're talking about something in spirit form, not flesh.
As I said, there is a case in which people feel that angels sometimes temporarily take on human form, disguise themselves as mortals in order to intervene, but that's a special case category.
So according to the strict definition, an angel is a superior spiritual being.
However, the term angel, when you get out there in the real world and start asking people about their guardian angel, they'll come back with a lot of different types of experiences and experiences with dead loved ones.
often get lumped into this angel encounter subject matter.
So that they may say, hey John, let me tell you about my guardian angel and I start listening
to the story and it turns out they are talking about a departed loved one that is looking
after them they feel.
But although strictly speaking that is not an angel, if you want to approach it loosely
you could say that that might be a de facto guardian angel if not a de jure guardian angel,
not one according to strict definition.
Here's something that might interest you.
I, of course, interview a number of people, experts in the field of UFOs and so forth and so on.
And a couple of them that I've interviewed recently, John, have suddenly inexplicably begun to talk about angels.
Yeah.
And I kind of wonder if there's beginning to be a crossover in the field.
There's always been kind of a linkage there.
I often get asked about that.
Some parapsychological observers, I guess for want of a better term, have constructed the term EHE, exceptional human experience.
As kind of a blanket term to cover all sorts of paranormal experiences, everything from angel encounters to UFO contact key cases and so on, I think what they're trying to get at is that the spiritual reality that is larger than our physical world encompasses a lot of possibilities out there.
As you said at the beginning of your program, it's not always easy to wrap all this stuff up into neat little packages.
Sometimes there's a crossover.
Well, what about the perception of the person having the experience?
In other words, if we have a fairly heavily religious person who has an experience with an entity, Yeah.
Are they not likely to, in their own minds, say, this is angelic, or this is from God?
Oh, yeah.
Obviously.
Versus somebody, maybe even a UFO buff, who will see something and say, aha!
An ET!
It's perfectly human to frame experience in one's own frame of reference.
In the near-death experience, for example, religious figures are often viewed, especially when the being of light, the superior spiritual being that is very much angel-like, is overwhelmingly loving, profoundly wise.
It can appear at the time of, say, a life review where you see every tiny action of your life played out in front of you for purposes of moral or spiritual evaluation.
A person may come back having experienced this awesome being of light as a superior spiritual being, and they may put labels on it according to their own beliefs.
They may say, well, I saw Jesus, I saw God.
Or they may just say, I saw an angel if they're a secular person.
They may say, I saw a being of light.
Hindus who have had near-death experiences have often reported that they saw Yama, the judge of the dead, and so on.
So the labels may vary.
But the thing that's interesting is, at least with the appearance of the luminous being as a component of the near-death experience, they very often report, they seem to be describing the same thing, which is kind of intriguing.
Intriguing and comforting, in a way.
Yeah, well, you know, when I mean everybody's searching for some sort of proof that there is a life that extends beyond this one.
And by the way, in all the studies you've done, John, how sure are you That there is a life after this one?
Oh, that's a great question.
I would say this.
Personally, I'm convinced of it.
I don't want to sound like a true believer.
I don't want to sound like an ideologue because I'm none of those things.
In fact, I'm opposed to being that sort of thing.
I'm not a fundamentalist by any stretch of the imagination, whether in the religious or the non-religious realms.
But I personally, yes, am convinced.
I've seen enough to satisfy myself.
I would agree with the skeptics out there that there is no scientific proof that a spiritual realm exists in the sense that we've shown
it beyond a reasonable doubt, as the lawyers like to say. But I would feel that, again,
to use a legal term, there is a preponderance of the evidence in favor of a
spiritual realm and that anyone who takes a little bit of time to investigate it on his own will, I
think, come to the same conclusion.
What we have out there is not proof but circumstantial evidence.
And, you know, there's a difference between proof and evidence.
In other words, we don't have a smoking gun.
Alright, if I were to ask you for a guess and say, John, do you think if proof ever comes, it will come in the scientific area, or it will come from an exploration of our own mind?
In other words, some turn inward.
Or may we just may simply never ever prove it one way or the other?
Yeah, that's possible.
I think that if proof comes, it could come either way.
And there are indications that it is coming both ways.
I mean, there are developments in science itself.
That are seriously undermining the materialist philosophy, the idea that the physical is all there is.
And by the way, I call it a philosophy, I didn't call it a science.
This idea that the physical is all there is, the skeptics often get that confused with science.
It has nothing to do with science.
It's sort of a religion that has attached itself to science over the last two centuries.
What I'm referring to when I say scientific developments, I'm talking about things like quantum physics, that branch of physics that deals with dimensions smaller than the atoms.
It's shown us that the external universe out there needs, in a sense, needs our consciousness to be real.
Those subatomic particles are not discrete little BBs that are independent of us.
If a scientist doesn't observe them, they literally have no existence.
And while this may seem strange and bizarre to somebody not familiar with this,
there's no dispute about it among physicists.
We have to look at them in order for them to be real.
And depending on how we look at them, they can change their nature.
If we look at a photon, if a scientist conducts a certain type of observational experiment on a photon, looks at it one way, to put it in plain English, it will act like a little particle.
Einstein did that at the early part of the century.
If another scientist looks at it a completely different way, it'll act like a light wave.
And if it's not looked at, it has no existence in and of itself.
This is quite shocking, and Niels Bohr, the great mind in physics in the 20th century, He had this in mind when he said that anyone who is not shocked by what quantum physics has to say about the world has not understood it.
And this one little development here has shaken materialism at its root.
And you've got the Gaia Hypothesis, which indicates that some sort of planetary intelligence may be in effect guiding and causing the systems of the Earth to interact with one another to maintain conditions suitable for life.
You've got the anthropic principle coming out of astrophysics, which suggests that we appear to be living in a designer universe suitable for human life against incredible odds.
And any one of these things we can go into later, if there's more time.
Oh, there's time.
All right, fine.
Radio has the luxury of time.
Let me hold you right there for just a moment, take care of a little bit of business.
My guest is John Rahner.
And John will be back in just a moment.
Northam, back now to John Rahner.
John.
Um, John, I'm not sure how to approach this.
There is something that I call the quickening.
Maybe it's real, maybe it's not.
I've done... You know, I've been doing talk radio for about 10 years now.
Have you?
And I have never... This show, as a matter of fact, for 10 years.
Oh, really?
Broadcasting for more like 30.
But in the last two or three years, I've begun to notice what I call a quickening of events.
More earthquakes.
Uh, more bad weather.
Uh, more wars in scattered places.
More of just about everything you can name.
Uh, political events, social upheaval.
All of it.
Everything that's going on seems to be accelerating.
And I, so I just call it the quickening.
Uh, it's just, you know, a word.
But, I wonder if it might fit into those who would, uh, somehow or another end up helping us.
End of what?
Helping us?
Helping us.
Angels?
Angels?
Yeah.
I think, well, what came to my mind when you were talking about that was the fact that I think that our world is in flux, and we clearly see signs of that.
I think even the materialists would concede that.
You've got a technological revolution.
We've gone from Kitty Hawk to Voyager in about 70 or 80 years.
Exactly.
To me, mankind is in, or humankind, is in a stormy adolescence right now.
We've had a long childhood stretching out for thousands, even you might argue hundreds of thousands of years.
We're in a stormy adolescence and I think we're headed toward a more mellow adulthood shortly.
We shouldn't be too discouraged.
I think Shakti Gawain pointed out that you can look at all this turbulence one way.
You can be distressed by it and say, oh, this is terrible, the world is going to hell in a handbasket and that's the usual way that people look at it.
Or you can take the positive look and say, well, we're kind of working out our problems and you don't do that without a little bit of dislocation.
As far as the way to relate angels to this, I would say that one of the ways that our society is in tremendous flux is that materialism as a philosophy, this idea that the physical is all there is, is rapidly fading as the dominant belief of the intellectual elite of our culture.
They're rapidly shedding this for reasons we just went into in the last segment.
A lot of people are coming around to the idea that, well, just take a look at the climate today.
Couldn't it also, John, have a lot to do with the graying of America now?
Yes, yes.
As you get older, you tend to realize your own mortality more, and so you think about it more.
I think there's a tendency for most of us who develop normally to become more spiritual as we get older.
The process is called maturing.
I think this is happening in the culture at large.
I think the intellectual elite is changing its mind about the basic nature of reality and I think you see signs of this change of mind.
You see it in the media, for example.
Last year we had a whole raft of specials on angel encounters in which the spiritual and the metaphysical is given the best... I would say that the spiritual and metaphysical subjects are getting the best press today than they ever have in my lifetime.
I have a clear memory going back to the early 60's.
And I can remember in the 60s as a teenager sitting on the front porch of my duplex in Alabama, you know, reading the newspapers or whatever.
If anybody dared to express a metaphysical experience, heaven help them, you know, because they were immediately followed in the print report or the broadcast by an expert saying they had seen the planet Venus or the... I could tell you so many stories.
John, we're at the bottom of the hour.
Hold on.
We'll be right back to you.
Believe me, doing a standard five hour per night talk show on regular subjects during the week and then doing this on the weekend gives everybody in the world an opportunity to take a cheap shot at me.
I'm used to it.
We'll be right back.
Please do not call.
From the Kingdom of Nye, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
Call Art now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222, 702-727-1222.
727-1295 in the 702 area code.
Now again, here's Art Bell.
Now again, here I am.
Hi, everybody.
Back to John Runner in just one moment.
Three.
And, uh, John, we're back on again.
by back to john ronner interest one moment
and uh... john we're back on again as i was saying i've done this for ten years
john and i find that uh...
i'm going to continue to examine the kinds of areas that i have been for
years now with shows like this one because
i think whether it's extraterrestrial visitors and and the question
is whether there is life elsewhere which to me is always seemed probable
uh... or we're talking about life after death these are probably to the most
important questions Mankind strives, for as long as he is alive, to answer.
I mean, they really are, and so I'll keep examining them, and I'm sure that you've had plenty of people come after you, too, in your time, kind of chuckling and laughing, and, you know, it's an easy, cheap shot.
Well, the existential questions are always going to be with us, and we've really got a choice of universes here.
If the materialists are right, then we live in a meaningless, accidental universe, and all of our spiritual lessons which we have learned at great cost over
our lifespans are for naught.
It makes no difference at all.
If they are right, then the universe is essentially meaningless.
I know the existentialists argue that you can still put your own meaning into life and
that is true up to a point, but to me it is small potatoes, it is thin gruel to compensate
me for the fact that my whole universe is meaningless.
I want to get back to what we were talking about a while ago.
The heartening thing about this is there is some circumstantial evidence out there to suggest that a spiritual realm actually exists.
You don't have to be credulous.
You don't have to be empty-headed, as some skeptics often suggest, in order to believe in all of this.
Let's take the near-death experience for example.
This is one of the things that impressed me so much as a young man.
One of the first things I noticed during all of the hoopla about the near-death experience in the mid-1970s, which caught us all by surprise.
Very few of us at that time had ever heard of it.
I certainly hadn't.
Of course, you have the initial stage of the out-of-body experience and then the journey through the tunnel, which is kind of like the halfway zone between the physical plane and the spiritual realm.
Then the person having the near-death experience emerges into the world of light.
There they interact with departed loved ones who preceded them in death.
Sometimes this superior being of light, this angel-like being of light that we talked about earlier, which sometimes is described as angelic, sometimes as a divine figure, You have a life review where you see every tiny action of your life in all of its many small details, almost like a morality play, a theater in the round, completely surrounding you in technical, you're right in the middle of it.
For many of us that is a terrifying prospect.
It can be terrifying, it can be exhilarating, it can be a combination of both, because you suddenly for the first time get into the heads and the hearts of everybody around you
and you see the implications of everything you've done, good and bad.
Of course, the people who have had this life review experience have often come back saying
that the one thing that struck them the most about it was that all of the things that we
consider so important and so big tend to be very trivial and unimportant during the life
review when you are looking at it from a higher consciousness.
Some of the things that were seemingly trivial like a little act of kindness or a kind word
to somebody you need suddenly take on tremendous proportions in the life review.
It's almost like your priorities are turned upside down.
To get back to what I was going to say, we are familiar with some of the stages of the
near death experience and evidentially what impresses me about it is that somebody can
be lying flat on their back for 15 to 20 minutes with no vital signs, clinically dead, the
brain is not working, the electroencephalograph is flat lining and all of a sudden they come
back and say, the story is, well I was floating around the room.
I was looking down on all of this.
You know, I saw the doctor over there doing this.
The nurse was crying because I was the same age she was.
That's what she was thinking.
She didn't say that.
Then it goes on into 101 different details about what happened while the person was clinically dead, while he had no vital signs.
And sometimes they even pass through walls moving into other rooms.
My question is this.
I've heard the standard explanations from the materialists.
Okay, your brain is flooded with feel-good neurochemicals like serotonin and endorphins and whatnot to try to ease your transition into oblivion because your body wants to resist the idea that it's all over.
The problem with all of these explanations is they're non-explanations.
And then don't forget the... None of them explain where you get this knowledge from.
Don't forget the brain cells dying from the outside moving inward, accounting for what some doctors say is this center core of light.
Oh yeah.
Right?
They've come up with that one for the light.
Well, all of these theories sound good on paper, so to speak, but if you look a little bit deeper, they don't explain where this knowledge comes from.
And experiments have actually been conducted to this effect.
Michael Sabelman, Atlanta cardiologist, well, let me back up just a couple of steps.
The skeptics have said, have been confronted with the fact that these people have all of this knowledge about what went on while they were clinically dead.
And I want to emphasize this again, at the risk of beating a dead horse, that while the brain is not working according to the EEG, Yes.
Where do they get this knowledge from and also where do they get this perspective from?
Because very often they describe looking down on it all from an upper corner of the room.
They could not have had that perspective if they were lying flat on their back on a hospital bed hallucinating the whole thing.
So the skeptics have come back and said, well, they're just good guessers.
They're old hands in the hospital.
They've been through the routine and they kind of know what's going to happen anyway.
The Atlanta cardiologist was one of the researchers who followed Raymond Moody.
You know, Raymond Moody came out with his book on the near-death experience in the mid-1970s
and woke the whole country up to the near-death experience.
But Moody was not actually doing scientific research.
He was just collecting anecdotes and he put it all together into the different stages
of the near-death experience so that people would have a handle on what was going on.
He was followed by researchers like Sabum and Kenneth Ring, the Connecticut psychologist,
and Bruce Grayson and so on who did scientific research.
Now, Sabom addressed the good guesser theory, okay, the idea that they're just good guessers, they're old hands in the hospital.
That's how come they know what's going on.
He got himself two groups, a control group and an experimental group.
Control group had no recollection whatsoever, while they were clinically dead, of anything that went on.
No recollection of an NDE.
The experimental group claimed to have been out of body watching the whole thing.
Both groups were given questionnaires to fill out before they had a chance to be briefed, you know, after they were resuscitated to describe what had happened.
And of course, you know, the experimental group that claimed to have witnessed all this stuff out of body was largely successful in describing what had happened.
And the control group that had no recollection, well, they fumbled miserably.
They couldn't begin to describe what had happened.
So, you know, we're back to what we said earlier.
There's no scientific proof for any of this, but there's a lot of tantalizing tell-tale signs that something's really going on out there.
I've seen enough.
Let me ask you, stop and ask you a question.
I don't know whether you happened to catch the 16 Minutes episode or not.
It was on a few weeks ago.
No, I missed it, but tell me about it.
I'd like to hear this.
Okay, well, it covered, this poor lady had a brain aneurysm.
A big one.
In other words, a big, bulbous expansion of a blood vessel or whatever in her brain.
And there was no way to operate on this lady other than to literally kill her.
Now, they reduced her body temperature way down.
They drained all of the blood from her body, which of course allowed them, you know, the aneurysm at that point without blood pressure, shriveled, and they were able to operate on it, excise it, and everything It was the only way it could be done, otherwise they would
have killed her.
They lowered her body temperature.
She went flat, all the way flat, no brain waves, nothing, for the better part of an
hour, an hour I say, they heated her blood and as they put the blood back in her body,
John, she revived.
They didn't have to do anything, no electric shock, nothing.
As they put the warmed blood back in, back comes a lady.
Now, this is actually, though rare, a fairly common procedure.
Where, John, did that lady go?
Well that's the philosophical question.
My feeling, my opinion, Is that it's entirely possible that people do experience the phases of the near-death experience, but may not have any conscious recollection of it once they come back, and that some do and some don't recall it.
I mean, I can't prove that, but it would seem more logical to me that everyone has a near-death experience when they're out.
There was one other, I'll stay with this for a second, it covers what you just talked about.
It was an operating room.
And, you know, frequently they would have these NDEs that would occur and the doctors would be told about it.
And so they took a little neon sign and put it up on top of some equipment in the operating room where nobody would be able to see it except somebody Who was out of body.
Who was out of body on the ceiling.
Yes.
And nobody to date, John, has come back and revealed what that sign says.
On the other hand, if you were out of body and you were looking down, in all probability, the sign is the last thing you'd read.
Yeah, it's hard to say.
I mean, there are instances where people have reported objects out of sight, so I'm not, I don't know, I would say that the neon sign definitively disproves the near-death experience.
I mean, there was a case in which, one of Moody's cases, in which somebody came back and had allegedly been on an out-of-body flight and had gone out, I think he was hovering outside one of the windows of the hospital many stories up from the ground.
He saw a sneaker sitting out on a window ledge.
He came back into his body and mentioned it to the medical personnel and
they checked and sure enough there was the sneaker.
I interviewed Sandy Rogers for one of my books.
She lives in Lebanon, Illinois and she was popping in and out of her body doing life
saving surgery being performed on her after she tried to commit suicide.
She picked up a lot of information about her relatives in other rooms and so on.
So while the neon sign to date has not been deciphered by anybody, there have been other instances in which people have seen things that were beyond their range of vision if they were just lying on the gurney.
I'll stay with this for a second.
It covers what you just talked about.
It was an operating room.
And, you know, frequently they would have these NDEs that would occur and the doctors would be told about it and so they took...
Uh, a little, um, a neon sign and put it up on top of some equipment, uh, in the operating room where nobody would be able to see it except somebody... Who was out of body.
Who was out of body on the ceiling.
Yes.
And, uh, nobody to date, John, has come back and revealed what that sign says.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
On the other hand, if you were out of body and you were looking probability the sign is the last thing you'd read
it's hard to say i mean there are there are instances where uh...
uh... people have reported uh... objects out of sight so i'm not i don't know
uh... i would say that the the neon sign definitively disproves the near-death
experience i mean it was a case in which uh... one of moody's cases in which uh... somebody came
back and and and allegedly been on out-of-body flight and uh... it
gone out and i think it was hovering outside the uh...
one of the windows of the hospital many stories up from the ground he saw a
sneaker sitting out on a window ledge he came back into his body and mentioned it to the medical personnel and
they checked and sure enough there was the sneaker.
I interviewed Sandy Rogers for one of my books.
She lives in Lebanon, Illinois and she was popping in and out of her body during life
saving surgery being performed on her after she tried to commit suicide.
She picked up a lot of information about her relatives in other rooms and so on.
So while the neon sign to date has not been deciphered by anybody, there have been other instances in which people have seen things that were beyond their range of vision if they were just lying on the gurney.
You've examined lots and lots and lots of cases of apparent intervention by angels or angelic figures or beings of light.
Um, if I were to ask you, which I will in a second, to recount to us in some detail the very best one or the best proof you've ever heard to date.
I wonder what you would say, and in a moment, we'll find out what he says.
We'll be right back.
All right, back now to John Rahner, subject to Angels.
John, what would you say is the best case?
Well, I tried to list a few candidates here.
I took this particular story for the new book.
In fact, I titled the book The Angels of Cokeville after this.
Cokeville is a small town in Wyoming, a ranching community, back in 1986.
A psychotic genius by the name of David Gary Young had an IQ of about 180.
To give you an idea of what we're talking about here in terms of intellect, an IQ of 130 is 1 in 100 and an IQ of 140 is 1 in 1000.
Young had an IQ of 180, but unfortunately he was a warped genius.
He built a bomb that took up an entire shopping cart, rolled it into an elementary school in Cokeville and took the entire school hostage to about 150.
Kids plus about 10 or 15 adults and he said he wanted a rap session with Reagan. He wanted 2 million per hostage
and But his is an examination of his diaries after the incident
revealed that he secretly Intended no matter what happened to take the ransom and
blow all the kids up including himself He had this crazy idea that he was going to reincarnate in
a new dimension called a brave new world and he'd be like a resurrected
Pharaoh, you know His man story as a crane operator. I got into a situation
where my crane would have tipped over if a dangerous Situation was not brought to my attention
my crane had an extreme load on the hook and One of my outriggers was sinking into the pavement
When an outrigger loses its stability, the crane tips over and can cause loss of life, or at the very least, damage to property.
In this case, four men could have lost their lives.
I noticed nothing wrong since my crane was swinging the heavy load to the men.
Somebody, now listen to this, somebody wearing carpenter whites and no hard hat, he's got that underlined, no hard hat, called my name, pointed to the ground and said, you're outrigger.
I saw that my crane was about to go.
And I was very busy swinging the heavy load away from the lives in jeopardy and was able to keep it from tipping.
Later, I tried to find the man that saved the crane and those guys' lives.
I couldn't find him.
I described him to the other guys.
They didn't know him.
He was dressed as a carpenter and the level of the building he was on had only laborers.
He had no hard hat on.
That would have meant immediate termination.
I later thought about it.
Now, I believe an angel was sent to save these men's lives.
Again, from an anonymous author and location.
That was for you, John.
What do you think?
Well, I think it's a classic story.
I really appreciate the fact that he took the time to send it in.
This is an example of the angel in disguise, or what many people feel would be the angel in disguise, and certainly that's the man who faxed that.
That's his opinion.
In this kind of category of experience, The angel looks like a human being, acts like a human being, but there are so many uncanny little details surrounding the incident that by the time it's over, as in the case with this crane operator, the person is convinced that this could not have been a human being after all, despite the fact that it looked to be that way.
Wouldn't it almost be necessary on occasion they would disguise themselves in a form that we would understand so as not to totally throw the person off?
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because I forgot to touch on that.
What the crane operator feels was an angel, in this case, disguised himself as a carpenter
in white, and yet there was no hard hat on his head.
Often times there are anomalous little things like this.
In a typical angel in disguise story, you might find yourself broken down on a deserted
road.
The helper tends to appear out of nowhere at a critical moment.
You didn't notice him coming and then disappear again at another critical moment when your
attention is diverted once the assistance is rendered.
Another little key feature of this which happened in this incident is that other people never
see the helper, just the person who needs to see him.
It's a widespread, it's reported on a widespread level there, and the skeptics have a hard time with this one, but it's pretty common out there.
I guess to get a handle on this, it reminds me of the old TV series, Highway to Heaven, with the late actor Michael Landon playing the angel Jonathan Smith, who looked like a human being, but tended to hang back and let people solve their own problems.
He would be the catalyst for change.
But would not take drastic action himself.
All right, here's another fact.
This might be a skeptic from Honolulu.
Okay.
Jeffrey, he says, John said that we have to look at, quote, them, end quote, to be real.
I don't see you on the radio, and yet I believe you are real.
If angels are so real, why hide?
I would like to get some help.
I need help, and they hide from me.
That's from Jeffrey.
That's a good point.
I want to point out, and I'm going to get into that, one of the things that we have a danger of losing sight of when we talk about these spectacular experiences is that there's some kind of spiritual elite out there having all the experiences and the rest of us are just kind of sitting on our hands looking around waiting for something to happen.
I don't think that's the case.
I think we're all surrounded by spiritual forces, we're immersed in it and we are touched By the heavenly and by the angelic.
The challenge for us is just to pay more attention to what's happening to all of us.
I think we're all affected by it.
I don't think Jeffrey's left out or I am left out or anybody else.
My sister has had lots of traumatic experiences over the years and I've had relatively few and those that I've had have been subtle.
I consider myself a part of all this also.
We're not sitting on the bleachers.
We're all in the playing field.
The more you pay attention to this phenomenon, the more it comes into your life.
I think, first of all, we're all affected by meaningful coincidence or synchronicity.
That's probably the most common way that the other side touches us in our day-to-day life.
William Temple said, when I pray, coincidences happen.
And when I cease to pray, they stop happening.
And people who have kept diaries of synchronicities in their life have noticed that they have increased in frequency and in intensity.
What were you going to say, Art?
Well, I was going to say, is what I would generally call intuition.
Or a very strong intuitive feeling that if I do this, I'm a dead duck?
That's another good example, yeah.
Is that an example?
I think intuition, the hunches that we have, are another very, very common way that we're all affected by this phenomenon.
Probably the most dramatic example of a hunch type of experience that comes to my mind immediately was a lady in Wisconsin who, let's see how did that go, her two sons were out on a joyride And all of a sudden, she was seized with this horrible feeling of dread that they were in mortal danger.
And without really understanding why, she found herself bursting into tears.
She flopped on her bed and started crying and praying for their lives.
She had no logical reason to do any of this.
A short time later, the two boys come in.
Their faces are pale.
And the story is that their car had been surrounded.
Their car had stalled on a street and was surrounded by an armed, hostile gang.
armed with baseball bats and guns banging on the windows of the station wagon with full
a full force pounding of baseball bats on these windows for two minutes. One kid was in the back
seat with his head right close to the window just inside of course and as he happened to kind of
glance outward he saw the head of a baseball bat come come down with full force on the outside of
that window and it hit the window.
The window didn't crack.
The window didn't spider.
But the baseball bat cracked in two when it hit the window.
Something, the kids felt, was keeping the windows from cracking or spidering or even shattering.
Now we can argue, you know, we can argue back and forth about, you know, gee, maybe that's a little far-fetched, John.
Are you trying to say that the Angels turned that car into an armored presidential limousine?
Well, you know, we can't prove that that happened, but we do know that their mother on some level was was keenly aware of the
danger that they were in and prayed for them and perhaps that prayer had an
effect on on saving their lives eventually they got the car started they got
out of there got away from the gang hey John have you heard any stories about
angelic appearances with reference to the big explosion in Oklahoma City well
you know what I heard I caught just a passing reference in just a garden variety
news report you There was so much mega information coming out of there.
Somebody had mentioned an individual who I don't know if anybody else out there in radio land heard the same account.
I was intrigued by that.
I've had people ask me whether or not I thought that a lot of spiritual experiences occurred in that disaster.
All I can say is that I have no way of knowing, but usually in times of great disaster, all sorts of paranormal activity occur.
If nothing else, a lot of people are aware on a subconscious level of the disaster.
and steer clear of it.
David Booth, Cincinnati office worker, had terrible nightmares ten nights in a row.
This was back in the mid-80s.
Let me see how that went.
After three or four nights of this, what he would dream is he dreamed that he saw an American
Airlines DC-10, he saw that much in his dream, a jumbo jet taking off in a slow ascent from
an airport, and then he watched an engine break off from the wing, then he saw the plane
flip over and come upside down back to the ground, it was a huge orange fireball, and
he'd wake up crying.
If this happened two or three nights in a row, he couldn't stand it any longer, he got the FAA, Federal Aviation Administration.
And they didn't treat him like a nut, they took him seriously.
And they interviewed him, trying to figure out what in the world, you know, where was his flight?
What is it happening?
Right, sure.
And unfortunately, you know, these visions are right brain phenomena.
The intuition comes in through the right side of our brain.
It doesn't give us a lot of facts, figures, and details.
He had a lot of visual detail, but not a lot of numbers and names to put on it.
He didn't know it was American Airlines, and he didn't know it was DC-10.
Anyway, American Airlines had too many flights, it just couldn't pinpoint it.
So the nightmares went on ten nights in a row.
On the tenth night, Booth had his last nightmare.
The next day, Lindsay Wagner, the actress, and her mother were about to get on board American Airlines Flight 191, taken off from Chicago's O'Hare Airport.
All of a sudden, Ms.
Wagner, who was known for her intuition, was seized with this overpowering feeling that she should not get on this flight.
for reasons she couldn't explain, but she trusted her intuition.
She just walked away from the plane with her mother.
A few minutes later, this flight 191 took off, and an engine broke off, the plane flipped over, came down,
inverted, an orange fireball went up just exactly as Booth had seen
it in the dream.
And unfortunately, all 273 passengers on board were killed.
It was the worst aviation disaster in North America up to that point.
That's incredible.
And Lindsay Wagner walked away from that?
She walked away from it.
And to get back to what you were saying, though, originally, what I was saying, I feel we're all affected by this phenomenon.
With most of us, it's a subtle thing.
Well, that's a... Okay, let me stop you, John.
That's the problem.
I'm kind of a halfway white-knuckle flyer, you know?
Oh, really?
Yeah.
In other words, when I get on a plane, And I think this is most people. It occurs to you, this
thing could crash.
You know, any time you fly, what goes up could come down.
And you could end up like Apollo 13 out there halfway to the moon and nowhere to go.
Yeah, well, that's more or less right.
And so I always worry about it, and I have a sort of thought, and I try to trust my intuition.
And I always go up those little flicks, and you're never really sure.
In other words, it should be before you walk away from that flight,
and I've thought about it a few times, it should be a true overpowering feeling.
Is that right?
Not just sort of a gentle worry?
Well, the people who have powerful, intuitive experiences will usually report that there's no doubt in their mind about it.
I've had one.
It's not a vacillating thing.
That's right, John.
I've had one, and it came at me like ocean waves, so strong.
So it was the only one, and it was really strong.
I've got another fax for you in just a moment.
John Rahner is my guest.
He'll be right back.
Zero.
Alright, we're gonna get to calls shortly, but this is from Diane in Southern California.
Dear Art and John, in the fall of 1983, after my father and brother died, I had my first experience with a guardian angel, Flora.
So this one has a name.
During the hour and a half she spent with me, I got a lot of questions answered.
I no longer need scientific proof of angels, as the many things Flora told me proved out true over the next few months.
The one question, though, I did not ask her, is the one I would like to ask John tonight.
Here it is.
Are those little flashes of astral-like blue-white light I think I know what Diane's talking about, if I understand that correctly.
I've seen instances where those were taken to be an indication of the presence of a departed loved one or a superior spiritual being, and possibly something else, but usually one or the other.
I've heard people talk of blue-white flashes.
Or speckled light or sometimes balls of light and so on that will appear.
Exactly.
It's one way the other side can make his presence known.
Usually when somebody encounters an angel as a superior being, they'll see a shimmering
column of rainbow light.
They may see balls of light.
They may see a human form against a kind of a very bright halo.
It can take a lot of different forms.
Do you believe in ghosts, John?
Oh yeah, as a matter of fact I was beginning to think that was what Diane was leading up to when you first started.
It's an important topic to be discussed within the larger context of angels, because a lot of people out there feel that departed loved ones look after them.
As I said earlier in the program, like de facto angels, the term guardian angel gets used even though technically speaking we're talking about a guardian spirit.
A ghost would not be a higher order of being, it would simply be a human being who had died
and continues to be essentially human just in another dimension.
Usually the contact between the living and the dead is very fleeting.
It's momentary.
It occurs around the moment of death.
It's usually a chance for people who have been suddenly separated to take care of unresolved affairs.
Maybe the husband tells the wife, I'm sorry, I never told you I loved you.
It's just the way I was raised.
I couldn't do any better.
I'm sorry.
I want you to know now that I love you.
I'll see you again sometime.
time, goodbye.
It's also a chance, these moment of death contacts are also a chance for us to answer
for our loved ones the two great questions, you know, does life go on after death?
Which addresses the fear of oblivion, that's one of the two great fears in our culture
and the other fear of course is the fear of hell fire.
So we get the fear of oblivion from one end of the spectrum and we get the fear of hell
fire from the other end of the spectrum.
You know, so in other words, the person, the dead appear and they say, look I'm alive,
look at me, life goes on, there's no oblivion and also I'm not in pain, everything's fine,
you don't have to worry about me and I love you, I'll see you again sometime and usually
that's the end of it.
In a minority of cases people feel that a relationship forms and continues sometimes indefinitely and sometimes for a few years, sometimes just for a few months after death in which there is repeated contact and sometimes a sort of guardianship that begins.
I spoke with a widow in Florida who felt that her late husband continued to make repairs around the house in the same way he had made them when she was alive.
I talked to another lady who felt that her husband rescued her in the middle of traffic one day when a car pulled in front of her and she froze up and was unable to take any evasive action and her late husband materialized in the car and jerked the wheel so that it went into a ditch and so on.
But whatever kind of form it takes, This thing is very common.
Andrew Greeley, the famous Roman Catholic priest and sociologist, most of us know him through his novels.
He asked 1,467 Americans in 1973 if they had ever felt that they were in touch with someone who died.
And 27% said, well, yeah.
So that was one in four saying yes, they felt they had been in contact with the dead.
And among widows and widowers, it was even more startling.
51% said yes, the majority.
That's one in two.
And he really went back 10 years later and did the same survey with another scientifically
selected group.
And the numbers were even higher.
They went up into the 30s overall.
All right.
And into the 60s among widows and widowers.
All right, John.
Hold it right there.
We're at the bottom of the hour.
We'll be back.
Yes, we're about to begin taking phone calls, so get ready.
John Rahner is my guest.
The subject, angels.
Don't go changing.
You're right where you should be.
Talk 102.
From the Kingdom of Nigh, we continue with your calls on Dreamland with Art Bell.
Call Art Now, toll free at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-TALK.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
727-1295.
In the 702 area code.
First time callers, area code 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Or the wildcard line at area code 702-727-1295.
727-1295.
In the 702 area code.
Now again, here's Art Bell.
Now again, here I am.
I want to add, and we're going to talk about photography in just a moment.
It's a very interesting question.
Back now to John Rahner.
John, you heard me talking about the photograph that we've got.
Are there any photographs of angels?
There are.
You know, I'm not aware of angels having been photographed per se.
Well, sometimes I've run across people who feel that they've seen patterns of angels in clouds and whatnot that they've photographed.
I'm sure it's happening.
Just because I don't know about it doesn't mean it's not happening.
No one's ever sent you one?
Excuse me?
Nobody's ever sent you one?
No, I haven't run across it, but it's probably happening out there.
Spirit photography, of course, has a long and colorful, checkered history.
I don't dismiss it.
I do think that overall it's valid.
Of course, there have been a lot of problems with fraud and so on.
I think, in sum, it's a valid thing.
All right.
I want to go to the phones, John.
Let's take some calls.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rahner.
Where are you calling from, please?
Oklahoma.
Oklahoma.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks.
Well, first, I was going to mention... Okay.
I can barely hear you.
Talk into the phone good and loud for us.
Okay.
Can you hear me?
That's better.
Okay.
First, I was going to mention the Alpine The advertisement that you have?
Yes.
I have some of the Alpine 150's in my house.
Yes.
And I was just going to tell the people out there that they really are neat because like if you have like a little doggy accident or a baby accident or whatever kind of accident and it makes like the cat smell or the pork smell, you can just aim that thing right at it.
I know.
I've got one.
I've got one too.
So anyway.
So anyway.
Anyway, I was going to ask him, do people that see angels, they're not with these craft and flying saucers and everything like that, are they?
Well, Pete, that's a good question.
In other words, where are all these angel encounters coming from?
What types of people are having these experiences?
Yes.
That's a really good question.
We haven't even touched on it at all tonight.
This phenomenon crosses the board.
You have people who are traditionally religious, you have people who are secular, you have metaphysically oriented people, all sorts of people having these experiences, and what has really surprised even me I don't know.
is that this interest in angels and the experience of them is almost becoming a global phenomenon.
One of my books, Know Your Angels, was recently translated into Japanese and I would never
have thought that the Japanese would be interested in this, but I suppose they have their own
Buddhist traditions.
I know that you have the Bodhisattva in Buddhism which is a mortal who has broken the wheel
of karma and yet chooses to remain on earth.
It is very much angel-like in order to help others with their evolution.
It is interesting that certainly within our neck of the woods all sorts of people are
interested in this phenomenon.
Alright, this one, another fax.
Would you ask your guest Art about angelic appearances on the battlefield and the appearance of the War Witch in odd moments during combat?
Never heard of the War Witch.
Well that's an interesting expression, the war witch is probably colloquial just for any kind of spiritual event that occurs on the battlefield.
Oh yes, battlefields are places of great stress and whenever you have a lot of stress you often have metaphysical experiences because, now the skeptics say, well you have metaphysical experiences in times of stress because the mind is snapping, but I like to think, I suspect, What's really happening is that stress puts the mind spontaneously into an altered state of consciousness which enables us to perceive other realities that our normal waking consciousness doesn't make available to us.
So, battlefields are places of great stress and so you have a lot of experiences.
In World War I, many of the soldiers along the Allied war front were claiming to have seen angels and saints and whatnot during an Allied retreat from Mons, Belgium.
That became a very famous series of incidents, and many of the older generations still remember that to this day.
Closer to our time, Raymond Moody, the near-death researcher, interviewed a gentleman who, during World War II, was being approached by a strafing warplane, and as the bullets headed straight toward him, kicking up the dust, he was feeling horrible, a terrible fear.
feeling that he would die and all of a sudden he was within the aura of something beyond
himself, a very pleasant, calming aura.
He suddenly felt totally at peace and wonderful.
He heard a voice speaking to him out of thin air and it said, I'm here with you, Reed.
Your time has not yet come.
The battlefield, because I think of the stress factor, is a place where very commonly you
have an interface between the physical world and the spiritual world.
All right.
Let me, before we go to more calls, every line's ringing, but I want to ask this, because everybody wants to know.
I sure do.
You probably won't have an answer.
And you have all these great stories about people that have been saved by angels.
Oh, yeah.
I know what's coming.
Yeah, sure you do.
But there are so many children in Oklahoma City, children across the nation, innocents, wonderful people.
Killed.
No intervention.
They're just killed.
Yeah.
Just like the plane crash we just talked about a while ago.
I mean, Lindsey Wagner walked away from the plane, but where were the angels of the other 200 passengers, 200 plus passengers?
Yup, that's the question.
That is it.
Why do angels go on vacation?
You know, why is my angel working, but yours is out to lunch?
That's good.
Why?
In the book of Acts, you have Stephen is stoned, but a couple of chapters down, Peter is freed by an angel.
First of all, as you said, there is really no answer to this.
It's been asked for thousands of years, and I've never come across anybody that had a completely satisfactory answer.
I'll throw a few things out, and with no hope of it really totally satisfying.
Some people have pointed out, well, first of all, a lot of bad things that happen in this world are of our own making.
Let's not start blaming God and angels for World War II.
World War II, for example, got started because nationalism ran wild, and racial hatred ran wild, and infected millions of people.
And you ended up with trillions of dollars worth of damage and millions of lives lost, all man-made.
Secondly, people have pointed out that there's a very popular metaphysical theory that we come into this world deliberately, with a choice, by choice, that we have our life roughly sketched out or mapped.
We have a life plan.
We choose to have certain experiences before we incarnate.
Now, I'm not saying yea or nay to this theory.
I'm just throwing it out for discussion.
And we may choose to experience tragedy, maybe a long wasting away from cancer to teach us what it's like to be helpless and to have others love us and care for us or vice versa to learn how to care for others who we love.
Some people have argued, Emerson for example, talked about the law of compensation.
The Hindus call it karma.
The old timers just say what goes around comes around.
This is another idea.
This is the idea that what we put out into the world, that the world is our mirror.
And what we put out into it is reflected back to us.
Whatever we put out in word or deed comes back to us.
Kind of an elegant way of saying God's will.
Yeah, well it's the idea that we create, a lot of the misfortune that comes to us is a reflection of what we have put out into the world.
Unfortunately, this sometimes degenerates into blaming the victim.
So without further ado, let me just wrap it up by saying that there are a lot of theories out there.
I don't find any one of them totally satisfactory.
It's not a broad philosophical question for them, it's just a personal thing.
Is God mad at me?
Do the angels hate me?
or just had some kind of terrible tragedy occur to them.
I would say this one final thing.
A lot of people when they ask this question are really asking, ìWhy did it happen to
me?î Itís not a broad philosophical question for them.
Itís just a personal thing.
Is God mad at me?
Do the angels hate me?
And I just have to say from the bottom of my heart, I cannot believe that we live in
the kind of universe that would deliberately visit negative things on people.
All right.
Well, to the Rockies, youíre on the air with John Ronner.
Hi.
Where are you calling from?
San Diego.
San Diego.
Yes.
What brought you to studying angels and what is your belief in a supreme being?
Thatís a great question.
I started out as an agnostic.
I thought the physical was all there was, that the universe was an accidental machine.
I guess I was kind of a child of that materialist thinking of the 50s and the 60s, which was so rampant, so strong, the idea that there's a logical, mechanical explanation for everything if you just look slightly beneath the surface.
But as a young man, I began to come to the conclusion that that's true if you look superficially at things.
There do seem to be mechanical explanations for many things, but if you look deeper, Some of those mechanical explanations start falling apart.
We touched on a few things earlier in the program where I think materialism is running into trouble.
The near-death experience flies in the face of the materialist mindset.
Developments in science fly in the face of it.
I guess the near-death experience probably had the greatest effect on me in changing my own mind.
I couldn't understand.
I remember as a young man I couldn't understand how people with wildly differing ideas about what the afterlife was supposed to be like could be having essentially the same experiences.
And this was all in the 1970s, long before there was massive publicity about the near-death experience.
Most people were like me, they didn't have a clue about that in the 70s.
So there was not any chance of contamination of people, you know, saying, well I've heard so much about the tunnel, I'm going to talk about the tunnel, or I've heard so much about the figure of light, I'll say I experienced that.
So I was very impressed by that.
Okay, back to the phones.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rahner.
Hi.
Yeah, John.
Hey.
I have a little experience I'd like to relate to you.
Okay.
This happened when I was around 16 years old.
Uh-huh.
I dropped out of high school, and I was kind of at my wit's end, and this was back quite some time, and this was on the East Coast, and I was going to this store every night that had bay windows.
It had a big turntable in one of the windows, and it had a bunch of guns on there.
And I kept eyeing him and I came to the conclusion that I was going to break the window and steal a gun and I was going to do some robberies.
Yeah.
And I came up that night and I had a brick in my hand and I raised it up and I was ready to throw it through the bay window and those little doors that they have for loading up the showcase, there was a policeman there in full regalia with his hat and his badge on his hat on his chest, his badge, and he was just looking at me. He
didn't say anything, just looked at me.
And I dropped the brick and I left. A year later I went into the military and I got out of the
military and I went back and got my high school and I went and got a degree in engineering. I work
in high tech today. I've done an awful lot of things that contributed to the science of the
world. You've come a long way. A very cutting edge of technology and I believe, I didn't realize it
at that time, but about a decade later I realized that that was indeed possible, guiding an angel.
Oh that's an incredible story. Where are you calling from please? Albuquerque. Thank you.
That's an incredible story. And it was a pivotal time in his life and just turned him around
completely. If you want to talk about being at a crossroads where the road forks and you could
go one way or the other, that story certainly exemplifies that, doesn't it? Was that policeman
with an angel, it's entirely possible.
Um, well, it certainly had about the same effect.
And whether, and you could either be the mysterious stranger type incident, it could be a meaningful coincidence, it could have been an actual policeman there.
You know, who knows?
But certainly his life was changed.
Alright, John, hold on.
We'll be right back to John Rahner.
He's our guest.
You know the numbers.
Get on the phone.
You may think you're a whore.
0-3-3.
John?
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
Here comes somebody else.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Yes, my friend, fellow Gemini, I have a question, a statement, and a quickie little story.
The question is, the Bible, for those that read, clearly states that God says not to get involved, do not seek, look for, or try to contact spirits or the dead.
All right.
How do you respond to that, John, basically saying the Bible says don't do what you're doing?
Well, I think some of the biblical writers were of that opinion, but the ancients had different opinions about that both ways.
There are some people who are troubled by the idea that you might want to try to summon the dead.
I think Saul got into trouble in the Old Testament for going to the witch of Endor to conjure Judge Samuel and then he was rebuked by Samuel as a result.
I'll give a quick statement because I know you're limited on time.
You're talking about intuitive.
I've led my life that way and sometimes even take it for granted as something that I seem to have either learned or acquired early in life.
I ride a motorcycle, so you've got to be very conscious, but I take it in every form of life activity.
I would be on the road, I think.
No, I'm not going to pass this vehicle.
No, I'm not going to change lanes.
It was just like a mental game or a gut feeling, I guess for lack of better words.
And sure enough, had I have done what most people or you commonly see people do or maybe have done yourself, yes, there would have been an oncoming obstruction of some form or another in the road.
Another quick story here.
I probably shouldn't mention the person's name because they're no longer living to defend what I'm saying, so you just have to take it at face value.
This happened many years ago with a famous short man, black entertainer.
We were at a dinner club.
A blonde gentleman came up to the table and said, Sir, God loves you.
And this person was so moved by it, He did his best to get a hold of the head waiter and the people of the club.
He said, I want to thank that blonde man for saying that.
And sir, we have no blonde waiters.
All right.
Well, we'll hold it there.
And I'll extend that.
There are all these stories going around, John, about the hitchhiker, Gabriel's horn.
That's right.
Some of these things are categorized as urban legends.
I personally have never personally interviewed somebody who has experienced that.
I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but the buzz that I get is that people are having trouble actually pinning down these stories to find out I have.
Oh, I've had calls, John.
That's why I asked.
somebody that you can speak with who says they had that type of experience.
But I'm not necessarily throwing cold water on it.
I just have not personally interviewed anybody myself, nor do I know of anyone who has interviewed
somebody personally who has had that story.
I have.
Have you?
I've had calls, John.
That's why I asked.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rodder.
Hi.
Hello.
Hey.
This is Nancy in Seattle.
Hi.
One of which was, I hear a lot about angels and I've never been particularly religious or non-religious.
I guess I'd not take it for rightful.
But...
I'll take it.
To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255.
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Or the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
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Yes it is, and I want to remind people I'm getting faxes asking me the Richard Hoagland program that was on the
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John, here's one for you.
A missionary deep in the South American jungle had been trying for some time to convert a local tribe to Christ.
No success.
The chief finally had enough of these trespassers and brought a full division of warriors down
on the missionary and his family.
They spent the night in prayer, ready for deliverance or death.
Unexpectedly, the warriors just left without harming them in any way.
Later, when on more friendly terms, the missionary asked why he didn't attack.
The chief said that he was outnumbered by his army.
The missionary was puzzled, but the chief assured him the hut was surrounded by an army
in bright white robes holding flaming swords.
Have you heard that one?
Yeah, there's a whole class of stories, Art, just like that.
I think Billy Graham, in his particular book, was talking about John G. Peyton and the Pacific Ocean's new Hebrides Island chain.
Yes.
He had a similar experience like that.
Very often, missionaries have reported that they were under duress or whatever, and that when attacked by hostile forces in their area, they received angelic help that was not visible to them, but what they found out later was visible to the attackers.
Yeah, there's a whole class of stories just like that.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rahner.
Where are you calling from, please?
I'm calling from Oklahoma, and I'm listening to KFH in Wichita, Kansas.
Wichita, Kansas, alright.
I want to tell a story about my mother.
She had a premonition or a dream the night before my grandfather was in a mining accident.
His men had gone down and set a charge the day before, and the charge didn't go off, so he went down to check it himself.
Well, anyway, in her dream, she dreamed that he was in an explosion, And that he was hurt badly.
Well, she went to take his lunch to him and begged him to come home.
And he wouldn't come home.
She told him what, you know, she had dreamed.
And he didn't come home.
And they went on, she and my grandmother went to Pittsburgh, Kansas.
And they had to come find him because he had been blown up in an explosion in the mine.
He lost his eyesight.
And his body was all blue where the shot went into his body.
And he almost died.
A little Catholic nun took care of him and kept him alive for six months.
But then, when he was 81 years old, she told me, I was pregnant with my son and had to go back to Wichita and couldn't stay with her while she was taking care of him at home.
And she said, I had a dream that grandpa was going to die on my birthday
and he died on her birthday.
It was really a strange experience.
I think there is evidence that when tragedy is about to strike that we may be aware on
a subconscious level or there may be a spiritual prompting from the other side about this
however you want to interpret it.
The parapsychologist at the University of Virginia, Ian Stevenson, did a famous study on coincidences and premonitions surrounding the sinking of the Titanic that became a classic.
Very often people seem to be aware through dreams or through hunches that something is about to happen.
W. E. Cox, a researcher in the 1950s, conducted a study of railroad accidents and he discovered that there was a statistically significant drop-off in ridership on trains that were doomed to crash on the days that they actually did crash.
And there was a further drop-off in ridership in the cars that suffered the worst damage.
He called this phenomenon accident avoidance, and his theory was that people were aware subconsciously that the accident was about to occur, and probably in most cases, without any conscious knowledge, they simply stayed away.
Maybe they lingered over breakfast a little bit longer and were late, like the members of the Westside Baptist Church that we talked about earlier.
I think in most cases, when we experience something like this, it often does occur subconsciously.
Let me ask you for a second about the dark side.
We talk about near death.
We talk about angelic appearances.
But there is a dark side, John.
There are people publishing books Yeah.
There was a lot of criticism, Art, of the near-death experience some years back.
It became kind of all the rage.
You might have even treated the subject on your own program.
The criticism was, well, the near-death experience is just too warm and fuzzy.
Everybody's having a wonderful time.
Isn't anybody having a bad time in the afterlife?
And there was a lot of examination about that issue in different programs.
I think what has happened is, well, first of all, let me say this.
What's so bad about the overwhelming or the great majority of average people who are neither Al Capone or Mother Teresa having a rather pleasant time of it in the afterlife?
If we live in the same universe, wouldn't you expect that?
Nothing's wrong with that, John.
I'm very encouraged by it.
But, you know, the other may be there.
Sure, yeah, and I was coming to that.
Nevertheless, there is some justification in raising the point.
Doesn't anybody have a negative experience?
And the answer is yes.
I think what's been happening is that in the early stages of near-death investigation, most of the people who were being interviewed were rather typical, average people.
You know, as I said, neither saints nor horrible sinners.
Now, upon closer examination, we find that people who are above-average wrongdoers very often do report rather negative experiences.
Jack London told the story of a gentleman who was in solitary confinement in San Quentin and had a metaphysical out-of-body experience and near-death experience during that time in which he experienced the life review that we talked about earlier in the program, so all the tiny actions of his life.
As you alluded to earlier in the program, he was aware of all the negative consequences and it was a painful experience for him.
I can just imagine what it would be like if you were, say, Saddam Hussein, who had started the Gulf War and cost 100,000 Iraqis their lives.
We're not talking about the injured now, we're just talking about all killed.
People who were buried alive in those berms when Schwarzkopf's tanks went over there.
Remember that?
We read in the paper about how they roll over these barricades and just bury these guys alive.
They did, yes.
And to be Saddam Hussein, this is just speculation.
You have a life review and suddenly you are aware on an intimate, empathetic level of
every tiny bit of suffering that you have caused to everybody and you are feeling it
from their heart.
That would be quite a hellish experience.
As a matter of fact, near death experiences going through the tunnel phase, first you
have the out of body phase and then they tunnel through this dark passage on their way to
the world of light.
Sometimes they have reported kind of looking to the side of the tunnel so to speak and
seeing.
A drab, gray zone around the earth, people with numberless spirits kind of shuffling
around, looking sad, weighted down, burdened, almost as if each person had his own problem.
Some people shell shocked by a violent death and not realizing they are dead.
Others running addictions that they ran in physical life and never dealt with.
Maybe alcoholics hanging around a bar trying to vicariously get the pleasure of the alcohol
and so on.
I remember in particular one instance where a lady who had near death experience noticed
in this gray zone on her way to the light, she noticed a young businessman kind of walking
down the street.
And he was in the flesh, you know, alive.
Right.
And hovering over him was the specter of a gray-haired woman who was waving her finger in his face as if trying to lecture him or tell him what to do.
And the near-death experience has said that she felt, she got the impression that that lady, that spirit, was his mother, still trying to boss him around in death as she had in life and was unable to let go of that.
Of course, in spiritualism there's a long tradition of belief in the idea that That one minute after death, we're very much the same as we are one minute before death, and that is to say we take all of our virtues with us and also all of our baggage, and if we have enough baggage, too much baggage, according to this theory, and that's all it is, is a theory, we remain earthbound, unable to ascend, unable to get to the light.
So if you look a little bit deeper, not all the near-death experiences are warm and fuzzy.
All right, John.
Good.
Hold it right there.
We'll be right back to John Rahner.
I always imagined that.
If you can imagine the good, you've got to imagine the other.
And if one exists, it seems to me, it argues for the existence of the other.
And we'll be right back.
Back now to John Rahner.
John, are you there?
I'm here.
Alright, a lot of phone calls, so let's keep going.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rahner.
Hi, where are you calling from?
I'm calling from San Francisco, California.
Oh, you're on the wrong line.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Now we'll go west of the Rockies.
You're on the air with John Rahner.
Hi.
Hi Art, you got the Washingtonian Druid up here in this K-O-N-A country.
Yes sir, Tri-Cities I believe.
Yes, that's correct.
I just wanted to call you up there and kind of warn all your listeners about this type of stuff.
There are a lot of evil angels out there and sometimes they like to cause a little bit of mischief now and then.
I had some experiences Beforehand with this type of thing.
So you kind of want to watch out because they do tend to cause a little havoc.
All right.
That's a good point.
I remember the old Disney movies where you got the good little guy over here and the bad little guy over here.
John, are there any cases you could document of the bad little guy leading people into a disaster instead of the other way around?
Well, I can't think of anything right off the top of my head, but the thought that I did have about what the caller was saying is the principle here is to watch out, be careful, that not all spirits are benevolent.
I thought of the New Testament principle of discerning the spirits, the idea that you should test the validity of the advice you're getting, the validity of the experience itself.
I think Ignatius of Loyola, the great theologian from the 1600s, the founder of the Jesuits, actually elaborated a system for discerning the spirits or testing whether the experience is bona fide or not.
I think one of the major points was to see what affects.
the experience is having on you. Are you becoming more spiritual or less so? Is life becoming
easier and more clarified for you or more confusing and more negative? These are some
of the issues that crop up. East of the Rockies, you are on the air. Where are you calling from?
Albuquerque, Georgia.
again.
Again?
Oh, you're only allowed to call one time per show, sir.
Two years ago.
Oh, you mean you haven't called in two years?
Right.
Oh, well that's not exactly... What's on your mind, George?
I expect you to remember.
Well, I'm sorry.
I was just thinking you two gentlemen could conduct a grand experiment.
Tart Bell, you have a tremendous audience.
And if you could ask them all to meditate on an improvement of a certain kind, it could be verifiable.
and mister parker could keep good to help you with that
john ronner on the right is he's talking about an experiment
have you ever thought of doing that john i i've done that uh... for example i have
uh... a little object i forgot it was a pen and balanced it on my table knowing i've got millions of
people out there I said, come on everybody, let's push this pen over.
Stupid pen sat right there.
Is it like that with angels?
Well, first of all, we were talking about whether an experiment has been performed and you could say that an experiment of that ilk is already underway and that's the mass meditation that generally occurs around the Christmas season every year for world peace and world stability.
Some people have argued that the gradual raising of spiritual consciousness on the part of
politicians, and the peace that seems to be breaking out all over the world, although
some will take issue with me, they'll point to Bosnia and so on, but I'm talking about
things like the fall of communism, the formation of the United Nations Coalition to Police
Iraq and so on.
Peace really is breaking out in a lot of countries, and if you follow the international news,
for example, Angola just recently ended a long-standing war.
Some people have said that all of this meditation is having a subtle effect on the politicians
and just on the planet at large.
I suppose it would be bad karma to try and get together and meditate on causing a blood vessel to break in Saddam's head, eh?
Yeah, and that gets back to, you just jogged me on the original point of this whole thing.
I wanted to point out that angels Generally, they are not believed to be capable of
manipulation.
They are superior beings, so you would not be able to force angels to do anything.
That's been the most common belief.
Of course, I'm sure that, as with everything else in metaphysics, there's no unanimity of belief.
But yes, I do think it would be bad karma.
It's kind of like sitting there and demanding of God that he supply immediate proof of his existence to you or you're going to stop believing.
Oh sure, and I think that I think that a lot of the mystery and the challenge of life would be removed.
We didn't touch on this earlier when you asked the question, why do angels go on vacation?
One point that I didn't make was that a lot of people argue that our existence here is a great adventure.
And if anytime you're going to have a great adventure, things have to go wrong.
If every time you did a show you had a 100% rating, whether it was a great show or a bad show, you'd be bored stiff after a few days.
That's true, John.
We'll be right back with whatever it is we've got going right now.
And it's good.
Stay right there.
Very angry with a particular angel for taking her brother away from her.
I'm...
I looked the angel's name up in the dictionary, and it was the Angel of Death.
I can't remember the name now.
Prior to the accident, my husband was blinded by a ball of bright light.
Our explanation is the sun, because he cannot justify anything else.
I know better.
My son's greatest gift to me, the many people he knew in the family, is the absolute knowledge that death here is not the end, but just the beginning of something else.
I hope it helps other parents whose children have left at a young age.
Look for the meaning and purpose for that child's life, and look at all the people affected by their short existence.
It does help, but the pain Never goes away.
That's Deborah in Seattle.
John, you're back on.
Yes, that was quite a story.
In the accident I was unclear about whether anybody else was hurt when the son was killed.
Well, they don't say the extent of the injuries of the sister.
She apparently was okay, I guess, because she was by the bedside of the brother for several days.
Listen, John, before you get started, you haven't done it, so I'm going to make you do it.
Look, I've already had, I've got a fist full of faxes here of stories like these.
I've got enough stories just from the show we've done tonight, you could write another book.
Now, if people want to contact you and give you stories, or people want to contact you and get your books, I mean, this is the time when you can give out your info, so give it out.
Well, what I'd like to do is, first of all, give an address where they can write me if they would like to.
They can write me care of Mamre Press, M-A-M-R-E P-R-E-S-S.
That's at post office box 3137.
And that's in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.
And that's M-U-R-F-R-E-E-S-B-O-R-O.
And the zip is 37130.
So that's 3137-37130.
As far as...
One other thing I'd like to do is just point out that I'll be speaking at a couple of
places.
On August 6th, I'll be speaking at the Unity Church in Franklin, North Carolina.
On October 28th, I'll be speaking at an angel conference in Maryland.
For information about that, they can call Greenlee Associates at 301-270-2185.
On November 30th, I'll be speaking at the Unity Church on Hillcroft in Houston.
On April 22nd, Next year I'll be speaking at a meeting of the Canton Metaphysical Society and on July 23rd of 1996 I'll be at a conference at Lilydale, New York.
All right, you don't have a fax number you'd like to give out, do you?
No, I don't.
If they're interested in writing care of the publisher, that's probably the best approach.
All right.
The books themselves are probably pretty widely available.
They've been in the chains for years.
Do You Have a Guardian Angel is the original book.
That's the old favorite.
It talks about many of the things we've covered in this program.
You can get that in most major bookstores.
And many of the minor ones.
It's been a best seller for some years and it's got pretty widespread distribution.
I wrote that one first back in 1985 when I was a young reporter and I wanted to do a
journalistic treatment of the subject of angels because many of the books were kind of strident
religious tracks.
So forcefully putting forth this author's viewpoint of that and I thought, gee, it would
be nice to rise above the fray and just provide journalistic objective information to the
I'm sure many criticize you for that, don't they?
Well, I think I'm sort of immune to all of that.
I've talked to all kinds of groups, everybody under the sun, all the way from From the mainline denominations to spiritualists and so on.
I think the one thing that immunizes me from criticism is that I don't try to tell people what to think.
I want the people to do their own thinking.
If the one thing I wanted to get away from when I wrote, Do You Have a Guardian Angel?, in the first place, this was going to be a book that didn't tell people what they had to believe.
In fact, the title itself, Do You Have a Guardian Angel?, is a question.
It's not a flat statement ordering you to believe in angels.
And then the next book, Know Your Angels, the Angel Almanac, came out in 1993 and that's
like a mini-encyclopedia of the subject.
And the newest one, The Angels of Coatville, I've encapsulated a few of those stories tonight.
That is a collection of what I consider to be the outstanding angel encounter stories that I have ever run across in the last ten years of talking to hundreds of people about it.
Excellent.
All right, back to the phones.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rotter.
Where are you calling from, please?
El Paso, and I've got a little battery on my phone.
El Paso, Texas.
All right.
Kind of in between the Rockies.
Anyway, I'm sure you've heard, I think I heard you mention it once before, but that light theory at the end of the tunnel?
Yes.
It's a trick, according to people.
It's true, sir.
Thank you.
Let me relate this, John.
An old friend of mine, who is a UFO buff, almost the granddaddy of UFO investigation in this country, John Lear, the son of Bill Lear, who, you know, the Learjet guy.
Um, once said that it had been said to him and he passed on to me and it has driven me crazy ever since.
He said, don't go to the light.
It's a trick.
Go to the darkness.
I have never been bothered so much by a statement in all my life.
You know, it seems so easy.
Light is good.
Um, darkness is bad.
Yeah.
It's a trick.
Go to the darkness.
Any comments?
Well, some people out there have misgivings about the being of light.
They feel like it's the devil in disguise tricking them, and there's some mentionings.
I think a lot of this comes from some of the New Testament writers mentioned that, I think, perhaps it was Paul, certainly one of the New Testament writers mentioned that the devil can disguise himself as an angel of light, and I think that's caused a lot of fear and trepidation out there.
But I'd also like to point out that one of the most famous appearances of a being of light In the history of our Christian culture, was the appearance of a being of light to Paul of Tarsus, the number two man in Christianity, when he was on the road to Damascus to persecute the Christian community there.
He was, you know, knocked off his mule, blinded for three days according to the Book of Acts, and later interpreted the experience as being Jesus, after his death, appearing to him and asking him why he was persecuting him.
So, I think we come back to what we were saying earlier, and that is It's just a matter of using spiritual discernment, not accepting every metaphysical experience that comes down the pike, but being selective and gauging it by the effect that it has on you.
What kind of direction does it put you in?
First time caller line, you're on the air with John Rahner.
Hi.
Hello.
Hello.
Turn it off, that's good.
Do that right away.
Where are you calling from?
Just a second.
I'll reach around the corner and get the radio.
All right.
There, it's off.
All right, where are you, sir?
I'm in Florence, Oregon.
All right.
I hear you're out of Portland.
Okay.
I don't know where to start.
I believe in guardian angels, because I've had one.
My family's had one for years.
Whether I have it now or not, I don't know.
My wife died in October.
And it may have been her guardian angel.
Anyway, I got my job through the guardian angel.
The guardian angel told my wife where to look for the job and I got my job.
When I retired out of the service, I got my house through a guardian angel.
My son passed away with muscular dystrophy in 89.
And the day he died, he told my wife that he had somebody holding his left hand.
And my wife said, there's nobody there.
Yes, thank you.
I had somebody holding my hand, mom.
Apparently there was because he died that night.
But there were many cases in my family where the guardian angel helped us.
Never got us the greatest things but always kept us right on the verge of disaster.
Thank you, John, it begs a good question and that is, he said he thought the guardian angel
might have been his wife's.
Now, does it seem true to you, John, that Guardian Angels follow one particular person?
Well, the most common belief, Art, is that each of us gets a guardian angel.
This is just the most common belief in our culture, has been that each of us gets a guardian angel at birth, that angel stays with us until death, at which time there's a separation.
Most of the medieval theologians accepted that particular idea.
It doesn't make it right.
Uh, and that, uh, everybody gets a guardian angel.
It doesn't make any difference, you know, how, whether, you know, if you're Joseph Stalin or if you're, uh, Albert Schweitzer, you're still gonna get one.
Okay, so then would you say some of them are lazy?
Some of them are no-count guardian angels versus, uh, ones that will stop trucks and stop accidents?
In other words, this goes back to the, uh, what happened to the other angels, right?
Yes, yes.
Yeah, I would say that, that Most of the things that we talked about would apply here.
Here again, I keep coming up with other little ideas, one of which that we didn't mention earlier is that some people come into this world just better wired to interface with other realities than the rest of us.
They may be picking up signals that some of the rest of us can't pick up.
It may be that the other side is trying to get through, but just can't with some of us and can with others.
One thing that the gentleman from Florence brought up that I'd like to address real quick.
I know time's running short.
He talked about how his son had died in 1989 with MS.
Yes.
And the day he died he was talking about how he felt someone was there with him holding his hand.
Right.
One thing that we haven't touched on in this discussion is the deathbed vision.
The idea that there's a genuine medical phenomenon that in their dying moments, dying patients will suddenly perk up and begin oftentimes speaking in an animated way with
somebody in the room with them that nobody else can see.
By listening it's an incredibly startling experience for the onlookers.
For those who listen to one half of the conversation because they can only hear the dying patient
talk it becomes clear that the patient feels that someone is there in the room with them
to escort them into the beyond, to take them at the moment of death and lead them on.
Sometimes it can be an angel that they may be feeling that they are with.
It may be a departed loved one who is there.
To give you an example of that, James Moore the famous tenor was on his deathbed dying
and all of a sudden he perked up.
Thank you.
John, I'll hold that thought.
very excitedly, ìMother, what are you doing here?î His mother had been dead for decades.
And then he went on to say, ìOh, wait a minute.
Youíre not coming to me.
Iím coming to you.
Well, wait, Mother, hold on.
Iím almost over.
I can jump it.
Wait.î And then a few moments later, he slumped and he died.
John, Iíll hold that thought.
You know, everybody, when you listen to this, and I hope that you do listen to it, and this
is why we do these kinds of programs.
You need not automatically believe, but one would hope that you would be open-minded enough
to listen and to allow it to enter your brain and rattle around with everything else youíve
Angels?
Huh.
Silly?
I don't think so.
I hope you're listening carefully.
We'll be right back.
North American trading has done a very wise thing.
You see, not very long ago, we interviewed Steve Jurich, who is an investment analyst with North American Trading of
Scottsdale, Arizona.
We talked about every aspect of the economy.
We talked about how the newsletter carries an unconditional money-back guarantee from the publishers.
Again, that's 1-800-830-9830.
All right, back to the phones.
John, we've got very little time, but east of the Rockies, here's somebody in El Paso, Texas.
Hello there.
Hi.
You're on the air, sir.
Okay, thanks.
John?
Yes, yes.
I was listening to your series about this month, and I had a friend of mine in California tell me that He's into radionics.
I don't know if you know what that is.
Well, I've heard of it, but you'll have to explain it because I can't pull it off the top of my head.
Radionics is where disembodied spirits will come back into your magnetic field.
I think we just lost the caller.
All right, well, let's try and take one more.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with John Rotter.
Hello.
Oh, I am, yes.
Here in San Francisco, there's a church.
All right, turn your radio off, sir.
I got it off.
I just turned it off.
Okay.
Okay.
Angelic things happened there.
A free evangelical church near 14th and Blanchard.
Have you heard of it?
Are you saying angelic things are happening at an evangelical church in San Francisco, right?
Yes.
There's been healing.
Actually, yes, I've heard of that.
I really have heard the rumors.
How long has it been going on?
Oh, it's been going on at least 10 to 12 years.
Alright, well, that begs a question.
John, do angelic things tend to happen around churches, or is the incidence of angelic assistance simply widespread?
I would say this, Art.
I'd say angelic things tend to happen where the belief in them is strongest.
The belief is an energy that facilitates these things.
A lack of belief is denying an energy and whatever we put our belief and our
attention into tends to expand in our lives and whatever we withdraw our attention or
belief from tends to contract from our lives.
This is one reason why I think we have such adamant skeptics out there in their universe,
in the universe that they have created for themselves with their skeptical consciousness,
there are no healings.
There are no miracles.
In other words, there are no visitations.
Those who say it's a bunch of baloney are liable to experience that reality for them.
If they begin to open their minds, I think it will start coming into their lives.
But as long as their minds are closed, I think it will stay away from them.
Alright, maybe one more.
First time caller line.
You're on the air with John Rahner.
I'm really glad to get through to you.
I know you've been running short on time and I'll try to be as quick as I can.
If I can hang on, I'd like to give you my phone number because I've been monitoring your show for about a year.
I'm a college student.
I'm 22 and having a really good time living life.
Enjoying the quickening, I very much agree with your description of it in that term.
Recently I underwent a most profound spiritual awakening within my own self after much dedication and hard work and much pain and much suffering.
Mind you, as a child I experienced much conflict over The apparent contradiction in good angels and bad angels, and heaven and hell, and eternity, and what it all meant.
Alright, well, we're way short on time.
Do you have a question?
I wanted to ask you what you or your guests knew about the new star.
Uh, John?
New star?
Well, I'll have to ask you about that, Tanaka.
Could you inform me?
There is one new star.
The only mention I've heard of it so far has been on the G. Liddy program, and all he did was read the 25-word or less AP wire.
Which, uh, said, uh, you know, basically there was a new star.
It took 18.5 million years or something like that for us to see it.
Alright.
John, are you talking about, like a, you're not talking about a nova.
You're not talking about a nova where a sun goes over.
John, John, John.
Go ahead.
We're out of time.
Okay.
We're out of time.
I mean, that really is it.
We've got to go.
John.
Alright.
It has been an absolute pleasure having you here.
John, we will have you back again.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, John.
John Rahner on Angels.
Good night.
And thank you all very much.
I'm sorry, there is never enough time.
Don't forget our bulletin board service number, area code 702-727-1709.
To get a tape of this program or any other, call 1-800-917-4278.
1-709 to get a tape of this program or any other call 1-800-917-4278.
From the high desert, good night.
This has been Dreamland, a program dedicated to an examination of areas in the human experience,
not easily nor neatly put in a box.
Things seen at the edge of vision, awakening a part of the mind as yet not mapped.
Yet things every bit as real as the air we breathe but don't see.
Please join us again next week at this time for Dreamland.
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