June 7, 1994 - Art Bell
03:22:18
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| Speaker | Time | Text |
|---|---|---|
| From the high desert and the great American southwest, I bid you all good evening or good | ||
| morning and welcome to Coast to Coast AM, PM, the first or last hour as the case may | ||
| be. | ||
| Yes, as promised, Richard Hoagland is here. | ||
| By the skin of his or our teeth. | ||
| Just got him before showtime. | ||
| And he'll be here in just a moment. | ||
| And he is, of course, author of Monuments of Mars. | ||
| And an awful lot more these days. | ||
| And he's got something to say about the moon. | ||
| And so we'll be talking with Richard Hoagland in just a moment. | ||
| First, a programming note. | ||
| And I know a lot of you are going to jump up and down when you hear this. | ||
| But beginning one week from this Sunday, the latest, the 56th affiliate for Dreamland, Kogo, K-O-G-O in San Diego, is going to begin carrying Dreamland live. | ||
| That's one week from this coming Sunday. | ||
| And I thought a lot of you down in Southern California would want to know that, San Diego, Los Angeles, and on up the coast. | ||
| So I'm sure you're pleased to hear that. | ||
| In one moment, Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Now, let us go back east. | ||
| I forget where he is. | ||
| I think New York. | ||
| Where are you, Richard? | ||
| No. | ||
| Hold on, Richard. | ||
| Just hold on. | ||
| Let me get you on another line here. | ||
| And let's see. | ||
| Here. | ||
| Richard, where are you anyway? | ||
| Weehawken, New Jersey. | ||
| Weehawken, New Jersey. | ||
| All right. | ||
| A lot of people don't know who Richard Hoagland is. | ||
| We've got a lot of new affiliates, that sort of thing, Richard. | ||
| So, without my having the bio, tell us yourself. | ||
| Who are you? | ||
| What's here? | ||
| Well, let's see. | ||
| I'm currently leader of a research project called the Mars Mission, which involves a range of astronomers, scientists of persuasions ranging from geology to image processing to mathematicians, anthropologists, even some artists and psychologists. | ||
| And what we're trying to do is to figure out a set of objects discovered on a set of NASA images about 20 years ago, taken of the planet Mars by the unmanned Viking mission. | ||
| And it's kind of the first extraterrestrial archaeological research project in history, I guess you could say. | ||
| Before that, I was head of astronomy departments at museums. | ||
| I was at the Hayden Planetarium in New York. | ||
| I've been a NASA consultant. | ||
| I've been a consultant to Walter Cronkite at CBS News, science advisor at CNN. | ||
| That basically covers it. | ||
| Very impressive credentials. | ||
| And last year, I cannot forget this, I was awarded the Angstrom Medal for Excellence in Science for the first time internationally by the Angstrom Institute in Stockholm, Sweden. | ||
| Very good. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Richard, I want you to answer critic. | ||
| I heard an earlier talk show host say that he regards this sort of thing as fantasy. | ||
| When you encounter a critic like that, what do you say? | ||
| I mean, besides your credentials, which are impeccable, what do you say to somebody who makes that kind of a charge? | ||
| Well, I point them toward the New York Times for July 20th, 1969, which finally apologized to Robert Goddard for calling him, some 50 years before, a fantasy visionary who was not grounded in science. | ||
| Everyone who tries to do something that has never been done before is accused of being slightly, you know, not anchored in reality. | ||
| Whacked out. | ||
| And, you know, you just have to take that along with the rest, because ultimately it's the evidence which will prove you right or wrong. | ||
| And, you know, about ten years ago when I began this, I wouldn't have given a prayer that we would be proven right, maybe within my lifetime, because there were no missions going back to Mars, there was no general scientific consensus that there was any possibility of artifacts in the solar system, It was an extremely isolated position. | ||
| Now we have, you know, hundreds of scientists who have joined us in various ways. | ||
| We've had peer review. | ||
| We've been awarded medals. | ||
| NASA has invited us five times. | ||
| I've been asked to speak at the United Nations. | ||
| I think the trend curve speaks for itself, Art. | ||
| I think you're right. | ||
| It certainly does. | ||
| And we'll leave that one right there. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Richard, I've got a computer, and recently I went up on America Online, got a gift reader, and got the gift pictures, several of them, of the monuments on Mars, of the face on Mars. | ||
| And I've been looking very carefully, as best I can. | ||
| Got a nice high-resolution monitor. | ||
| I must tell you, that face looks like a face. | ||
| I mean, it really looks like a face, Richard. | ||
| I don't know that I've got enough detail to see some of the other objects. | ||
| I can see surrounding objects, but I don't know that I can make out with the detail of the picture I have enough detail to call them... | ||
| Well, it's not technique, it's basically technology and algorithms. | ||
| These photographs were taken roughly a generation ago. | ||
| In other words, how do you come up with that? | ||
| Obviously, you've got more sophisticated techniques than I guess I do. | ||
| Well, it's not technique. | ||
| It's basically technology and algorithms. | ||
| These photographs were taken roughly a generation ago. | ||
| Imagine what has happened in the computer world in a generation. | ||
| A generation in the world of software, in the world of desktop computers, in the world | ||
| of microprocessing has been almost as much a revolution as from the first Wright Brothers | ||
| airplane to the Apollo spacecraft going to the moon. | ||
| I mean, we have literally come up factors of thousands in, you know, computer speed. | ||
| We've gone up factors of millions in computer storage capability. | ||
| In the number of image processing operations that can be done per second, MIPS as they're called, you have more computer power on your desk art now in 1994. | ||
| And I checked this with an engineer the other day because as we get into the discussion on the new part of our research, you'll see why this is very relevant. | ||
| An ordinary, let's say, half-meg hard disk Uh, 30 MHz DOS-based system is more computer power in one machine on a desk than all of NASA had 30 years ago. | ||
| God, that's incredible. | ||
| One machine! | ||
| That really is incredible. | ||
| One little machine. | ||
| I've got a 40... That all of NASA spread all over the country in a dozen centers had just 30 years ago. | ||
| A little over a generation. | ||
| So, when you look at these images, what you have to understand is that they were recorded As digital binary information on magnetic tape, you know, sent back to Earth, recorded here on Earth. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Sure. | |
| And any of the advances which have been wrought in the way of seeing things on these images is not because we're making up stuff, but because the algorithms allow you to reach down deeper and deeper into the noise and extract that last bit of signal. | ||
| And the other objects that are around the face, that are in fact several miles away, you have to look to the west, alright? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Those geometric, angular looking things that look very pyramidal, they will be brought out by a combination of noise suppression algorithms and things like sharpening, unsharp masking, a variety of techniques now that everyone has access to That literally only a handful of the world's most sophisticated computer programmers could have done 30 years ago. | ||
| The democratization of this technology arc is absolutely incredible. | ||
| It's the beginning of the superhighway, and what you're looking at is only the beginning of that highway for you, so keep going. | ||
| All right, well, my question is, without yet going into what is on the moon, how does the imaging quality of the photos we've received from the moon compare to what I'm seeing from Mars? | ||
| Let me see if I understand your... In other words, we just took the pictures on the moon recently, and I'm asking about... You mean Clementine? | ||
| Clementine, yes. | ||
| I'm asking about the imaging of those pictures versus the imaging we got from Mars. | ||
| OK. | ||
| All right. | ||
| We need to go into a little bit of various technology. | ||
| All right. | ||
| The images from Mars were acquired with what Brian O'Leary told me at breakfast the other morning was the most infernal Idiocy, a return to astronomy invented by man, namely the image of the Vidicon camera. | ||
| He was the deputy team leader on Mariner 10 that went to Mercury and Venus, and he had a devil of a time with the technology. | ||
| We were kind of comparing notes in Albuquerque the other morning when I was down there for a conference. | ||
| The same kind of camera was flown during Viking to Mars. | ||
| An image in Vidicon is a little pencil Actually, a cigarette-sized vacuum tube, which writes an image on the front faceplate of the tube by means of an electrical current, a beam of electrons, and various magnetic fields. | ||
| Or put another way, it's a TV camera. | ||
| It's a very tiny, but it's a vacuum tube TV camera. | ||
| Now, the modern TV cameras that you have in your camcorders, and you have in your studio cameras, top of the line, And you have in your space missions? | ||
| Those are not Vidicons. | ||
| Those are solid-state CCDs, charge-coupled devices. | ||
| They're chips. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Look, Ma, no moving parts, no vacuum tubes, it's all done with chips. | ||
| The chip camera is probably a thousand to ten thousand times more sensitive. | ||
| It is a hundred thousand times more linear, meaning the The lightest and darkest things it can photograph, and not overexpose or underexpose, is enormous compared to the... Bottom line is, the modern technology is a thousand times better than what was sent to Mars. | ||
| That's the technology now. | ||
| That's not counting the imaging algorithms and the sophisticated mathematical techniques Of enhancing, shading, contrast, stretching, all those things that you do with images once they come home. | ||
| Now, why is the technology important? | ||
| Because you're only as good as your front end. | ||
| You know, if you have a lousy radio, Art, I don't care how good a signal you're putting out, if the radio is bad, we're gonna sound terrible tonight in somebody's living room, right? | ||
| It's true, yes. | ||
| Whereas if you have a $2,000 stereo receiver, It's almost as if we had moved in. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| That's exactly right. | ||
| Well, that's the comparison. | ||
| All right, well then here's the question. | ||
| If we had today's technology, the technology available on Clementine, and it had been in roughly the same place taking the same photographs of Mars, would there be much of an argument about what we were seeing? | ||
| I would have had a lot easier time. | ||
| A lot easier time? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| No, you're absolutely right. | ||
| Because the noise levels would have been lower, the number of pictures would have been vastly superior, The comparisons, we could have had color, we could have had stereo, we could have had multiple angles. | ||
| This problem would have been a non-problem. | ||
| We would have known or not known within hours of those images coming back, provided again that the politics within NASA were honest, and that's a completely separate discussion. | ||
| But technologically, no. | ||
| If we'd had CCD imaging on Viking, the face on Mars would be a resolved mystery tonight. | ||
| All right, I thought so. | ||
| Now, this came to me in a fax from somebody at Cairo News, K-I-R-O, up in Seattle. | ||
| It says, Russian and U.S. | ||
| Mars mission planners are meeting at the Jet Propulsion Lab in Pasadena, according to Aviation Week, to better define U.S.-Russian participation in a proposed space exploration program to be called Mars Together. | ||
| France, Germany, and Italy are also considering joining in the new 1998 unmanned mission to Mars. | ||
| What do you know about that? | ||
| Well, I know the Russians were supposed to launch this year. | ||
| In fact, we were kind of hoping that they would get a look at Cydonia, that they may even land one of their mini-rovers, and it was delayed. | ||
| It's been delayed now two years to 1996. | ||
| This is part of the ongoing discussion between NASA and the European Space Community, and of course the Russians have now joined the European Space Community. | ||
| Uh, for plans after, you know, 96. | ||
| The next opportunity is 98. | ||
| You get an opportunity to go to Mars roughly every two years. | ||
| So, this is part of, you know, what we get to see in public. | ||
| What really is driving this, I basically could speculate, but I have no direct knowledge. | ||
| In other words, I don't know whether there is some plan to investigate the Cydonia objects quietly together, or they don't even know they're there, or they're pretending they're not there. | ||
| I cannot speculate. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Before we get to the moon again, I'm delaying this, I want a little bit of background on NASA. | ||
| I mean, you worked for NASA, and now you're in contention with NASA. | ||
| And why is that? | ||
| I mean, you worked for the organization, and now you're turning around, in essence, and saying, gee, what a bunch of liars. | ||
| Well, let me put that, hopefully, in a correct perspective. | ||
| I was a NASA consultant. | ||
| I was a NASA fan from the beginning. | ||
| I mean, when I was at the museum in Springfield in 1964, I created a transcontinental project between the Museum of Science in Springfield and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena with an NBC affiliate named WTIC in Hartford, Connecticut. | ||
| It was owned by the Travelers Insurance Company. | ||
| We did an all-night program with everyone from Carl Sagan to Alan Hynek. | ||
| We broadcast the program by laser as an experimental technology for communication, foreshadowing ultimately someday what would be occurring across the solar system, or between the Moon and Earth, or Mars and Earth, and all that. | ||
| The program was nominated for a Peabody, and the occasion was the first flyby of the Mariner 4 spacecraft past Mars in July of 1980. | ||
| 65, so I cannot say that I was an antagonist in the beginning, but what I have become is a critic because the agency has drifted away from the charter. | ||
| When you go back and look at how NASA was formed in 1958, as a unique government agency that was to be of service of, by, and for the people of the United States, if you read the charter, it says in one paragraph, That there shall be all appropriate and widespread dissemination of the process and results of NASA's activities in the field of science and inquiry into the universe, etc., etc. | ||
| And what we have found and what has been documented, not only by our own efforts, but by the efforts of people like Dr. Stan McDaniel, is that somehow NASA is not operating today in consonance with its charter. | ||
| Now, most of the people in NASA, the 99.9%, Who are, you know, heroic, pioneering, who believe in the Charter. | ||
| They would be appalled if they had done their homework and found what we have found. | ||
| So it's not that I'm opposed to NASA. | ||
| What I'm opposed to is the tiny handful of people who over the last 30 years, as we are now unfortunately able to document, have caused the agency to diverge more and more from its ideals, its goals, its vision, its principles, its ethics, on which the American people have depended. | ||
| And we're doing this on behalf not only of people who care about NASA, but the people within the agency who are being sold down the river along with the rest of us. | ||
| Richard, what influence caused this change, do you think? | ||
| Fear. | ||
| If you read a document called the Brookings Report, which we have unearthed now as part of our political activities, you find that literally as NASA was being created in 1958-59, There was a general effort by the agency to reach out to the scientific community and to gather experts from a variety of fields, anthropologists, economists, lawyers, politicians, industrialists, whatever, and to ask them, how do we do this poison growth? | ||
| How do we create a space agency? | ||
| And what should we do? | ||
| And what would the impact be back on the American society? | ||
| This study, which is available from federal archives all over the country, Which was submitted by NASA to Congress in 1961, in April of 1961, by the then new Kennedy administration. | ||
| Turns out to have contained within it what I have now called the ticking time bomb. | ||
| The kind of logical paradox. | ||
| Because on the one hand, NASA Charter called for it to be the most open, democratized agency in the history of the federal government, in the history of this republic. | ||
| In this Brookings Report, there is a section dealing With extraterrestrial intelligence, extraterrestrial life. | ||
| And in that section, NASA received recommendations that if it ever found artifacts, and it was expected that it might find, as part of its unmanned space activities, robots like Viking, or Lunar Orbiter, or Surveyor, or other missions out across the solar system, it might find artifacts. | ||
| And on page 215, this document predicts that. | ||
| It says that because of the potential for anthropological devastation, the fact that previous civilizations on Earth, when they have been forced to confront suddenly advanced cultures completely above and beyond them, that they have disintegrated, it recommended that serious consideration be given to simply not revealing this data, to withholding this information From the American people and thereby from the rest of the world. | ||
| My God, that's the equivalent of an unconstitutional act. | ||
| In fact, the parallel, Richard, to what has occurred to our own constitution since its penning, really, there are many parallels. | ||
| So, do you think it just might be that NASA, like every other bureaucracy, like our own damn federal government, got too big and as a natural course began to sort of draw in and become protective? | ||
| Well, if you look at the sociology of this institution, and you understand that in the time frame when this recommendation was made by people of the level of competence and authority of Margaret Mead, who was a very well-known anthropologist of this period, you know, the head of Harvard, the General Counsel for the United Nations, I mean, the names of the people on this Blue Ribbon Commission Read like a who's who of American science and industry of the time period. | ||
| Coming out of the very paranoid McCarthy period, where we were afraid of our own shadow and everybody else's shadow, the idea that a bunch of very respected academics would basically say to NASA, look, if you find ETs, you could destroy civilization if you let it out, I think had a profound chilling effect on the scientists and the administrators and the engineers, Who have been running NASA for the last 30 years. | ||
| What about the contention itself, Richard? | ||
| Well, that's a separate issue, because remember, politics is mostly perception. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Politics is the art of dealing reality, spinning reality, not reality itself. | ||
| So, regardless of whether you now look back in hindsight and say, oh, they were crazy to have thought that, the fact that, and I want to in a moment get into a couple of other governments that are In the same position, kind of sociologically, that we were 30 years ago. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And that I've now dealt with. | ||
| I've had representatives come and stay with us and talk to me about how they would respond to this kind of information, given that their treatment of academics is very different than ours is now. | ||
| It's more like it was 30 years ago. | ||
| So we've been doing our homework into why this apparently was taken so, so seriously. | ||
| The upshot is that a lot of the people who created NASA, Who commissioned this report from Brookings. | ||
| Remember, Brookings is one of the world's most prestigious think tanks. | ||
| All right, very short on time. | ||
| You've got to understand that these were well-meaning men. | ||
| And they were men. | ||
| They were not women, because we're dealing with the 50s and 60s. | ||
| And when they got this recommendation, I think, Art, that they felt they were doing a valiant public service. | ||
| In deciding that if they ever found the evidence, they would quietly put it in a drawer. | ||
| Richard Hoagland, hold on, we'll come right back to you. | ||
| This is Coast to Coast, AM, PM, the First Hour. | ||
| I'm Art Bell on the CBC Radio Network. | ||
| Stay right there. | ||
| My guest is Richard Hoagland, author of The Monuments of Mars. | ||
| And it's fascinating stuff. | ||
| We're about to get into questions about the moon, so stand by for that. | ||
| Richard Hoagland, are you there? | ||
| I am here. | ||
| Good. | ||
| Quick question. | ||
| I know you've had it before. | ||
| It came in by fax, Richard. | ||
| Would you ask your guest if he has any knowledge about the use of Hubble to look at the phase on Mars now that the telescope is operating properly? | ||
| Technically, it's not really possible. | ||
| Mars is literally too far away. | ||
| If you do the numbers, You know, the size of the Hubble mirror is about 100 inches, about 95 inches. | ||
| You know, we're 50 million miles from Mars at this opposition. | ||
| You do the standard numbers you find in any astronomy textbook, and what you find is that the face is about one pixel, one picture element across. | ||
| You have got to go to Mars to get data. | ||
| Got to go. | ||
| Yeah, I can understand that. | ||
| One pixel is just nothing at all to work with. | ||
| What do you know about the glyphs? | ||
| G-L-Y-P-H-S. | ||
| Glyphs. | ||
| Supposedly raised platforms or constructs that appear like alphabetical characters. | ||
| Have you heard of those, Richard? | ||
| Where? | ||
| I believe Mars. | ||
| Or maybe, no, I'm sorry, I think we're now switching to the moon. | ||
| This is on the moon. | ||
| The glyphs. | ||
| Let us switch to the moon. | ||
| I know you were ballyhooing a big announcement about the moon. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Well, all right. | ||
| Several nights ago, Thursday of last week, I flew to Ohio, to Ohio State University, and to a literally packed auditorium, about 600 people, Independence Hall. | ||
| We presented for four hours the results of the last year and a half of our Mars mission research. | ||
| We're going to have to, by the way, change the name of our organization, because Mars is too narrow a focus, and I'm in the process of kind of casting around for something that would be appropriate and would kind of embody the spirit of this inquiry as it broadens its focus. | ||
| But what we did is we presented a year and a half's worth of work. | ||
| We had four trays of slides. | ||
| We had 600 people stay four hours. | ||
| They gave me a five-minute standing ovation at the end. | ||
| It was quite impressive. | ||
| So, in other words, you gave them the bulk of your research on Mars to date before you launched into the new stuff? | ||
| No, we didn't. | ||
| Oh, you didn't? | ||
| We basically did a quick reprise, because everyone has seen the videos, the NASA briefings, the UN briefing and all that. | ||
| Or if they hadn't, we could point them to it. | ||
| We basically spent the four hours talking about the rather remarkable discoveries we have made on the Moon. | ||
| We have found detailed, three-dimensional, Unquestionable structural artifacts built by some ancient intelligence on the lunar surface. | ||
| Good Lord. | ||
| We have found them on multiple photographs taken by multiple surveyor, lunar orbiter, and Apollo missions. | ||
| Richard, that's an incredibly definitive statement. | ||
| Are you that sure? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| Unquestioned. | ||
| I've never been more sure of anything in my life. | ||
| And what's really neat, Art, is that we are drowning in data. | ||
| Whereas with Mars, we've been arguing, you know, almost like the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin in that classic, you know, thing. | ||
| Right. | ||
| With two photographs at two different lighting angles. | ||
| With the Moon, we are data rich. | ||
| We have literally thousands of pictures. | ||
| All told, NASA has millions of pictures. | ||
| Clementine, the new, the recent Pentagon mission, itself took one and a half million images of the Moon. | ||
| We are stunningly data rich. | ||
| Haven't you kind of wondered why we have never really seen the moon art? | ||
| Think back. | ||
| Tomorrow when it's dawn and you've rested up from the night before, go to your library and take out a few astronomy texts and begin to look at the section on the Apollo missions to the moon, or the moon in general. | ||
| What you're going to find, what we have found, what I have puzzled over for the last year and a half, You're going to find in book after book and text after text and magazine article after magazine article the same tired half dozen pictures of the moon. | ||
| Millions of pictures and all we have gotten to look at in the last 25 years since Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon in July of 1969 are basically the same six dumb images. | ||
| I never thought about it, Richard. | ||
| And you also have not seen Any stunning three-dimensional flyovers of the moon. | ||
| That's for sure. | ||
| JPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, which is NASA's premier interplanetary, you know, mission central, during the Voyager mission, it brought online, you know, parallel processing machines and supercomputers and craze and whatever, and during the Neptune flyby, it gave us within hours, practically, of the photographs from Voyager 2 of Triton, Neptune's large satellite, Right. | ||
| It gave us a beautiful, incredible, three-dimensional flyover of Triton, this planet-sized moon orbiting Neptune at the edge of the solar system. | ||
| Think back. | ||
| Have you ever seen a 3D flyover of our own moon? | ||
| No. | ||
| Have you ever seen, you know, a camera hovering, flying, skimming just above the Sea of Tranquility, darting across Copernicus, making a right turn At Archimedes, going through the Alpine Valley, shooting down over the rim of Tycho. | ||
| No. | ||
| Nothing. | ||
| No. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| I see them only of Earth, Richard. | ||
| You know, they will show the technology and how it's done on Earth and so on and so on, but never the moon. | ||
| Mars, you know, you see the volcanoes. | ||
| We have recreated our own version with Cydonia and Dr. Carlotto and the imaging technologies at TASC, the Atomic Sciences Corporation in Reading, when Mark worked there. | ||
| But think back. | ||
| We had three extraordinary mapping cameras on Apollo 50, 60, and 70. | ||
| These were 24-inch aerial reconnaissance cameras used by the military, you know, to photograph the heck out of Cuba and pinpoint the missile silos. | ||
| Loaded with the best high-resolution aerial film that American technology could provide, they mapped stunning orbit after orbit after orbit after orbit of the moon, And have you seen one frame of those photographs? | ||
| Now that you mention it, no. | ||
| So where is all this stuff? | ||
| Well, they dare not show it to you. | ||
| Because it contains evidence, stunning evidence, of artificial structures that they, and we'll get to who they might be, have not wanted you to see for 30 years. | ||
| Brookings has been in full force, and we have been living a lie, Art. | ||
| And that's what I showed the crowd at Ohio State University. | ||
| And that's why they gave me a standing ovation, because we've finally broken the lie. | ||
| Richard, the moon is not one pixel from Earth. | ||
| Nope. | ||
| It's a lot closer. | ||
| Optical telescopes can and do all the time. | ||
| You are going to love this. | ||
| I guess I will. | ||
| One of our Mars mission members, and I'm going to name names and frame numbers tonight so people can begin to begin the crucial verification process. | ||
| Good, good. | ||
| We also had a professional TV crew at Ohio State We filmed the entire four hours. | ||
| We are in the process of editing the four hours. | ||
| We are hoping to have an online video available so everyone can see these images on their VCR. | ||
| Within a matter of weeks, hopefully next two or three weeks. | ||
| When will computer images be available? | ||
| Good question. | ||
| I have not been able to get the data into the hands of our computer people yet, simply because I had to get the stereo, and getting this silently, quietly out of NASA has been like pulling teeth on a mountain lion. | ||
| Wow, the lion is asleep. | ||
| You don't want to wake up the lion. | ||
| So you did do it, though. | ||
| We did do it, and that's why we're delaying. | ||
| If we didn't want to include that, we could probably have this thing ready in a week or so. | ||
| But I want to wait about two or three weeks so that Carlotto can take the stereo, the three-dimensional, two different missions, five different geometries, three different lightings that we've got of some of these objects And literally create the 3D so that you will fly around the several thousand foot high crystalline skyscrapers we have found standing on the moon. | ||
| How high, Richard? | ||
| Several thousand feet. | ||
| Several thousand feet. | ||
| And we have them on photographs from two different archives, three different technologies, you know, uh, what is it now? | ||
| Two, three different missions. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| I have to keep track of the numbers here. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| There is no doubt. | ||
| The geologists of our team, most of whom have not seen what I have been working on, because I've been holding it very close to the vest. | ||
| Some of them were able to assemble at Ohio State on Thursday night. | ||
| They were absolutely blown away. | ||
| They were boggled, because they know that this is not what the geology of the moon should look like. | ||
| It just doesn't look like that, boys and girls. | ||
| And the amazing thing to me, more so than the artifacts, It's how they've kept the secret. | ||
| And that to me is going to be the most amazing puzzle of all this because I can't imagine that we're the first to have seen this. | ||
| I do know that our technology is a lot better on one desk than all of NASA had when these photographs were taken. | ||
| But I also have now been seeing clues in the Lunar Science Conference papers in the proceedings of the Scientists get together every year in Houston where they gather and present papers on the lunar studies, the rocks, the photographs and all that. | ||
| I see lots and lots of clues that other scientists have seen some of this before and didn't know what they were seeing. | ||
| I also know that some scientists had to have known what they were seeing because there's just the fingerprints of their manipulation of the rest of them away. | ||
| It's like the 99% who were honest Well, that gets into very speculative territory, Art. | ||
| For one thing, we're the only nation to send stuff to the moon, except for the Russians, right? | ||
| believe that everybody is honest and they don't think anybody would ever | ||
| lied to them in nasa and that's why this weirdness | ||
| has succeeded all day that accounts for this country but what about other | ||
| governments other countries that gets into very speculative territory are for one thing | ||
| really only got nation to send stuff to the belief that the russians | ||
| right well but we're not certainly the only uh... nation to do | ||
| careful photographic uh... work of the moon | ||
| Well, yes, we are. | ||
| We are? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Now, there is one weirdness in that statement that I must tell you. | ||
| What about the British, Richard? | ||
| They do quite a bit of it. | ||
| The British have not been to the moon. | ||
| Not into the moon, but they do a lot of photographic looking. | ||
| No, but you need to be in lunar orbit, again, to see the level of detail, to know with absolute certainty what you're seeing. | ||
| I see. | ||
| You have to be in lunar orbit. | ||
| Now, let me tell you one weirdness that I don't under... I don't know where to put this on the landscape, and so I'll just lay out the evidence and you can decide what it means. | ||
| All right. | ||
| About a year ago, a Japanese television network came to us wanting to film me for a program vis-a-vis the monuments of Mars. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And negotiating with the Japanese is an art form all unto itself. | ||
| Yes, I know. | ||
| Particularly when you do it by fax, long distance between here and Tokyo. | ||
| Oh, I know. | ||
| So, I mean, I wasn't so much interested in the money as I was interested in the leverage that having a Japanese television network working with us could give us to answer a major mystery in my own mind. | ||
| In 1991, one of the major car companies in Japan, I believe it was Honda put a spacecraft in orbit around the moon. | ||
| Were you aware of that? | ||
| No, I was not. | ||
| Well, see how quietly it occurred? | ||
| Honda put a space... Honda. | ||
| Yep. | ||
| When was this? | ||
| In 1991. | ||
| It was a two-component mission. | ||
| One part of the spacecraft went into a high Earth orbit, and the other was placed in lunar orbit. | ||
| Now, let me pose the question. | ||
| Have you ever known the Japanese to go anywhere without a camera? | ||
| No, of course not. | ||
| Have you seen any pictures from the Japanese moon orbiting mission? | ||
| Richard, I didn't know they went to the moon. | ||
| Well, I did, so I asked long-distance my colleagues in Tokyo... Who launched this thing? | ||
| The Japanese space agency. | ||
| ISA, I believe it's called. | ||
| ISA. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| But it was primarily... Remember, the corporations over there are driving the train. | ||
| Shimizu is planning an orbital Hilton at a Japanese moon base. | ||
| Are they really? | ||
| Yep. | ||
| When do they project that? | ||
| Well, they're fuzzy on the dates, and I now know why. | ||
| Because the politics aren't ready. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I see. | |
| Anyway, so I am interested in getting hold of These pictures that I propose, imagine, had to have been taken by the Japanese mission, right? | ||
| Of course. | ||
| So rather than the normal international exchange of, you know, dollars for rights and all this, I basically propose we do this for a very modest amount, but I want access to the Japanese lunar pictures. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ah! | |
| Okay? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Because I'm beginning to build the data file and I'm trying to get a handle on what in the world we got on the moon that no one wants to talk about. | ||
| So, when do you get back? | ||
| Sosati, Hoagland's on? | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| How much time we got? | ||
| Yeah, we're alright. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| The day after I sent the fax. | ||
| Remember, when you're dealing with fax between the U.S. | ||
| and Tokyo, you're dealing into tomorrow. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| You're crossing the international dateline, so it's already tomorrow over there. | ||
| That's correct, yes. | ||
| So, the fax machine rings at very weird hours when you're trying to do this. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Literally, within hours of my sending this fax, where that was the condition for my going ahead with this arrangement, Yes. | ||
| My contact sent me a copy of the Tokyo Times back by fax. | ||
| That morning! | ||
| Which announced that the Japanese spacecraft had crashed on the moon. | ||
| Oh, my. | ||
| Within hours. | ||
| And further, it stated that it only took two pictures, neither of which was usable. | ||
| You're right. | ||
| Incredible. | ||
| I hate to say, Art, but I think the fix is in. | ||
| The international fix. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| We have one world. | ||
| One world, one space agency. | ||
| And the last vestige of competition vanished when the Soviet Union collapsed in all its glory a couple of years ago. | ||
| The fact that the Russians have now delayed again going on the wake of Mars Observer disappearing, if it weren't for the fact that we've now got them by the Well, this is Family Radio, so I can't tell you who got them by. | ||
| So, Richard, we are now the gatekeepers. | ||
| We are the gatekeepers, and fortunately the Constitution still prevails, and fortunately we've got the data, and fortunately the American people can take back their space program, but they've got to get mad enough to decide this nonsense is high time it ended. | ||
| Enough already, huh? | ||
| And you're convinced of this? | ||
| I mean, you're sure of it? | ||
| There's no question? | ||
| It's not just me. | ||
| When I send you the tape, you're high on the list of getting the first copies next week that will be called the preview copies. | ||
| Great. | ||
| You know, I had a meeting this afternoon with our production people, and I've set aside in the budget 100 copies, freebies, to be given out to media, political people, scientists, colleagues, you know, kind of high-priority targets, because once you see what is there, what we have found, Your life will never be the same again and you will demand that Bill Clinton do with NASA what he's done with the Atomic Energy Commission. | ||
| Open the damn file. | ||
| Is he likely to do that? | ||
| We are talking with the Clinton administration even as we speak. | ||
| We had a conference call yesterday with one of the President's closest friends. | ||
| Someone who has taken the McDaniel document into the Oval Office. | ||
| And I am going to try to set up a situation where Bill Clinton either can become a hero, a la the man that he venerates, John Kennedy, or history will write something different. | ||
| More like a Richard Nixon. | ||
| There are two ways you can write history. | ||
| You can either lead or you can follow. | ||
| In this case, leadership is demanded. | ||
| The positive benefits, Brookings, you know, aside, the positive benefits of leveling with the American people, presenting clearly and concisely what we've got and now what we can do with it, the extraordinary opportunities and the benefits to the economy, to the global political situation, to domestic, you know, peace and tranquility, all of the positive things that can happen by being honest on this issue, by going forward with the research and the development and making use of this knowledge, For the benefit of all mankind, so far outweigh the fears of a few timid bureaucrats who have been huddling, quivering, shivering under the covers for 30 years because Margaret Mead said we would destroy civilization. | ||
| If you tell us, that will not happen. | ||
| This is the Star Trek generation, Art. | ||
| We have been raised on going where no one has gone before. | ||
| And I frankly think it's high time that we all grew up and we went ahead and made known what a few have known and have seen while the rest of us wondered. | ||
| Richard, maybe we're ready, but what about the rest of the world? | ||
| We are not alone. | ||
| In other words, we've come a long way. | ||
| You're right with the Star Trek generation, but I'm not sure they are in Argentina or in Britain or in Australia or in Japan or in a lot of other places. | ||
| What about the rest of the world? | ||
| Well, look, You know, we lived on this planet from the 50s to a couple years ago, where children in every culture, every race, every creed, every color, every country, went to bed at night, and if they had access to any kind of media, at some level, as they went to bed, they thought, maybe I won't wake up in the morning because there'll be a nuclear holocaust. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| A global nuclear war. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| And this planet survived that insanity. | ||
| Nothing else I think that this is where leadership has to assert itself. | ||
| The positive benefits, culturally, scientifically, technically, and economically, of pursuing this high frontier now, of verifying what's there, of exploring what's there, of returning the extraordinary knowledge of what's there, when we get into the details of what is there, You'll see why we desperately need this knowledge back on Earth to help us save the Earth. | ||
| What makes you think they don't already have it? | ||
| What makes you think they have not already explored it? | ||
| If they've done all this, the rest of this stuff in secret, why would you imagine they'd have as much knowledge as you may have, and would not have acted on it? | ||
| But it has not been applied. | ||
| And it's the application to society as a whole, the Baconian tradition of science art, where we have fallen woefully short. | ||
| Remember the mandate of NASA. | ||
| NASA's charter was to explore space and to create the technologies and the knowledge base to apply that wisdom and knowledge for the benefit of all mankind. | ||
| There has been a woeful gap between that vision and what, in fact, has taken place. | ||
| So maybe the science has been done by somebody, but it has not been applied to the benefit of society on this planet, and that's what has to happen now. | ||
| We have to reinvent the Earth, Using this knowledge which someone has been sitting on for over 30 years. | ||
| What if the answer, though, Richard, is so awful, something that would, for example, deny the existence of God, or cause people to believe that what they've always thought, their deepest faiths, are shattered? | ||
| I have to tell you, Richard, if I were a government guy, and I had that information, I'd sit long and hard before I released it. | ||
| Well, we've sat long and hard. | ||
| Isn't a generation enough? | ||
| Is the information that... Do you think it may be that shattering? | ||
| I think it could be that important. | ||
| I mean, we're living on borrowed time. | ||
| If you look around the planet, you can see that environmentally, technologically, we're living on borrowed time. | ||
| There is everything from, you know, the fossil fuel problem of greenhouse warming, to, you know, increasing numbers of toxins, the Superfund, is woefully inadequate to handle the toxic waste problem. | ||
| You know, people are dying of starvation because there's more mouths to feed every year, and the technological curve to feed them is not keeping pace. | ||
| Things are going to get horrible anyway. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| We must do something different. | ||
| We must reinvent the human condition. | ||
| I agree with you, Richard. | ||
| All right, I want you to relax for a few minutes. | ||
| I'm going to take care of some business, do news at the top of the hour, and we'll come back and talk about the detail of what's up there. | ||
| Richard Hoagland, stand by. | ||
| Stay right where you are. | ||
| We'll get back to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| and this is some pretty good stuff. | ||
|
unidentified
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So, let's get started. | |
| From the Kingdom of Nye, you're hearing Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell. | ||
| Much more than just a talk show. | ||
| To participate in the program, call toll-free 1-800-618-8255. | ||
| That's 1-800-618-8255. | ||
| This is the CBC Radio Network. | ||
| That's 1-800-618-8255. | ||
| This is the CBC Radio Network. | ||
| On nearly 100 radio stations now, we're going to light up the night, believe me, with what | ||
| Richard Hoagland is saying. | ||
| Definitively, without question, he's found artificial artifacts on the moon. | ||
| and I'm gonna go. | ||
| And we'll get back to Richard Hoagland and talk about that in just a moment, as I try to do when I have a guest. | ||
| We cluster some of our business toward the beginning and end of an hour. | ||
| To open up the maximum center time. | ||
| So, back to Richard Hoagland in just a moment. | ||
| He has been a consultant for NASA. | ||
| He is the author of the Monuments of Mars. | ||
| He heads an organization that he's getting ready to change the name of, because the mission is broadening. | ||
| And his name is Richard Hoagland. | ||
| He says there are undeniably, obviously, artificial objects on the Moon. | ||
| Richard, are you there? | ||
| I am here. | ||
| Good. | ||
| Let's get into a little bit of detail. | ||
| Exactly what is it you found on the moon? | ||
| Well, we found a range of things. | ||
| What led us to this site was extensions of our work on Mars. | ||
| As you know, we have been looking at the monuments on Mars for about 10 years. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And what we found is that these structures on Mars, and I'll remain with Mars for a moment, are not laid out at random. | ||
| Part of our Part of our epistemology, part of how we know, or with a high level of confidence, strongly suggest, if you want to be really conservative, that there are structures on Mars is because they have a very precise and repeating, overwhelmingly repeating, geometric pattern. | ||
| They are not laid out at random. | ||
| Mountains and, you know, craters and other things have a random distribution. | ||
| These things are as orderly, if you know what you're looking at in terms of geometry, as the streets of Albuquerque or Las Vegas or Los Angeles. | ||
| It requires, though, some different sort of geometry to come to these conclusions, doesn't it? | ||
| Well, no, it requires Euclidean geometry, but it's different angles. | ||
| Instead of right angles, we're dealing with multiples and sub-multiples of what we would call tetrahedral geometry, which is the geometry of a circle. | ||
| What are called polyhedra, many-sided figures inscribed within a sphere. | ||
| Plato was one of the first to make popular the so-called five platonic solids, which are these regular, multiply-edged figures you see put inside spheres, sometimes in museum exhibits, sometimes in textbooks. | ||
| The simplest of those forms is the tetrahedron, which is a four-sided, four-cornered, pyramid made out of a series of equilateral triangles. | ||
| If you take a sheet of paper, you take a pen or a pencil, and a scissors, and a ruler, and you draw four equilateral | ||
| triangles on the piece of paper. | ||
| Now an equilateral triangle is a triangle whose sides and angles are all equal. | ||
| Remember the angles in a triangle in two dimensions have to add up to 180 degrees. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So if you have a 60 degree angle, and a 60 degree angle, and a 60 degree angle, | ||
| that satisfies the first criteria. | ||
| That makes 180. | ||
| And each edge will be exactly the same. | ||
| You cut those out and take a piece of, you take a tube of glue or you take some masking tape or scotch tape and you carefully glue them or tape them together into a pyramid. | ||
| And you've got one on the bottom and three on the sides and it's got four sides and four corners and there is a tetrahedral pyramid. | ||
| You put that in a sphere and you're off and running. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| In two dimensions, not in three, but in two dimensions, an equilateral triangle is the symbol, is the stand-in for this tetrahedron. | ||
| Alright? | ||
| What led us to the site on the moon, where we have found the structures, is an 18-mile diameter crater in whose interior is an almost perfect equilateral triangle arc, which can be seen from the Earth with a telescope. | ||
| What would it appear to be? | ||
| A triangle as an indentation? | ||
| It appears to be a dark equilateral triangle. | ||
| Can you tell whether it is an indentation or a protrusion? | ||
| Well, you can't tell from the Earth-based photographs. | ||
| We've now acquired photographs taken by the Lake Observatory about 50, 60 years ago. | ||
| And these were available from NASA. | ||
| They were picked up by a colleague of mine at an archive in Hawaii, of all places. | ||
| We tried to get some full moon photographs from Lick directly, and for some curious reason, we couldn't get any. | ||
| I don't know whether it was because the people we were dealing with were kind of dumb, or they're not available, or I don't understand why, but we finally had to track down full moon pictures through a NASA archive out in Hawaii. | ||
| And when you scan them and put them up on the computer and enlarge them, lo and behold, this crater called Ukurt. | ||
| has this stunningly perfect equilateral triangle inscribed within it. | ||
| It's the only crater on the Moon that we've examined. | ||
| We've now looked at thousands of them that has this. | ||
| Now what makes this pretty interesting is that this crater at certain times is the closest crater to Earth on the Moon. | ||
| It is in the center of the lunar disk. | ||
| It's right smack dab center of the visible side of the Moon facing the Earth as the Moon orbits around the Earth in about a month. | ||
| It's the place where if you were putting something for intelligence on Earth to see when it developed telescopes, Art? | ||
| That's where you'd put it? | ||
| That's where you'd put it. | ||
| So, of course, this is kind of interesting. | ||
| Now, when we did the computer processing, what you can do in the computer ...is you can measure very carefully light values. | ||
| If you've been looking at your GIF images... Yes. | ||
| ...you know you can call up what's called a histogram? | ||
| Yes, absolutely. | ||
| And you can actually measure on a scale of 1 to 256? | ||
| Right. | ||
| The gray scale? | ||
| That's correct. | ||
| The bright and dark pixels? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Well, on the rim of the crater, we can look at the brightness of the rim in various parts. | ||
| If you think of a crater as a circle, as a clock... Right. | ||
| ...and you have the clock at, let's say, midnight, with the hands directly up, Three o'clock would be with the hands at right angles, six o'clock would be with the hands of the opposite, and so on and so forth. | ||
| Think of a clock face, alright? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| The equilateral triangle in OCCURT is basically midnight to four to seven, and back to midnight. | ||
| Huh. | ||
| That's the edges. | ||
| It's straight up and down. | ||
| Now, on the rim, around the crater, there are three bright sections, which are at two, ten, and six. | ||
| So it forms another equilateral triangle if you connect the edges outside of the interior equilateral triangle. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Precise one, yes. | ||
| Like a double-inscribed equilateral triangle, which of course is the two-dimensional equivalent of the double-inscribed tetrahedron we have decoded through the monuments of Mars, if you look at my UN tape 1,400 times, as some people in fact have. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You see why we got intrigued? | ||
| Of course. | ||
| So, you know, as Indiana Jones said in the last crusade, X does not mark the spot. | ||
| It turns out to be an equilateral triangle. | ||
| So we began pulling out of the files, or trying to pull out of the files, through various sources and contacts, mission photography from the U.S. | ||
| space program going back 30 plus years around this site, smack dab in the center of the moon. | ||
| And there are three sets of missions that obviously we wanted to look at. | ||
| Right. | ||
| How do you go about that, by the way? | ||
| I mean, do you call up NASA and say, look, I'd like... No. | ||
| No, no, no, no, no, no. | ||
| Not if you're heading the Mars mission. | ||
| You don't. | ||
| I see. | ||
| Because the first thing that I thought would happen is there would be a wholesale fire. | ||
| I knew I was looking at negatives for a particular part of the moon. | ||
| I don't want to sound a little paranoid, but, you know, with the weirdness that has been documented by McDaniel and others now over the Mars data, I wanted to play this real cool. | ||
| So the advantage of having a membership organization Is you can have John Q. Public write very nice letters to the National Archives, which NASA has set up, and they can order photographs and negatives and things, and they never know that it is going to the research until it is too late. | ||
| So you basically were hoping they were hiding this in plain sight? | ||
| The Perline letter? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| We had some indication that in fact this is what was going on, and let me tell you one piece of evidence. | ||
| I was able to get hold of a catalog from the Apollo 10 mission, published in 1971. | ||
| Apollo 10 was the precursor to the lunar landing. | ||
| It literally was a year ago, a couple, I'm sorry, 25 years ago, a couple weeks ago. | ||
| Right. | ||
| May 25th, 1969 was the successful orbiting of Apollo 10. | ||
| And of course, I vividly remember it because that was my You know, I was involved at CBS. | ||
| I was science advisor to Walter Cronkite. | ||
| You know, a young kid at 23, the power of being advisor to the most powerful television network in the world. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| You can imagine how you felt at that time. | ||
| Well, I felt that way. | ||
| So I remember vividly where I was, what I was doing, what we were all doing during this mission. | ||
| Little did I imagine, Art, that a quarter of a century later I'd be looking at photographs acquired by that mission and finding stunning stuff. | ||
| That A, proves that there's somebody else out there, and B, that our government has not leveled with us for a quarter of a century. | ||
| I would never have imagined, ever, that I would be in that position. | ||
|
unidentified
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Of course not. | |
| But that's where we are. | ||
| So anyway, I got this catalog from one of our Mars mission members, and in going through it, I noticed something peculiar from Apollo 10. | ||
| In these catalogs that have been published on every mission, going back now to Apollo 8, what NASA has done, in consonance with the Charter, is to publish voluminous amounts of data. | ||
| You know, it's almost like one of those old Johnny Carson routines. | ||
| Everything you ever wanted to know about an Apollo mission is contained within these covers. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And, you know, you've got data on the Zeiss lenses, you've got data on the film types, you have data on the electric rewind, on the transmission. | ||
| I mean, everything any photographer would ever want to know is in these manuals. | ||
| So much information. | ||
| It what? | ||
| So much information. | ||
| Oh, you know, you're drowning in data. | ||
| No. | ||
| But this is good. | ||
| You know, data is good. | ||
| Also in the back of the catalog, they provided in postage stamp size, actual reproduction of every photograph taken during the mission. | ||
| This is the still. | ||
| These were the Hasselblad stills. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The film cameras, the Sequence cameras are not available. | ||
| Because, remember, when this technology was used, we were limited to film. | ||
| Now, of course, you could have video previews of what the film cameras recorded. | ||
| You could simply order the video cassette of, you know, X-Orbit and that kind of thing. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Anyway, in the back of this catalogue, Hollow 10, published in 1971. | ||
| Mission took place in 69, catalogue published in 71. | ||
| I'm looking through it and I'm looking in the back at the reproduction of the photographs themselves and I begin to notice something pretty weird. | ||
| NASA's catalog process of photo reproduction is lousy. | ||
| If you go from upper left to lower right there's about a half a dozen pictures on each page and you would have overexposed, blank, underexposed, Okay. | ||
| Underexposed. | ||
| Blank. | ||
| Blank. | ||
| Overexposed. | ||
| So-so. | ||
| Underexposed. | ||
| Blank. | ||
| Overexposed. | ||
| And I began to compare that mission with the previous catalog from Apollo 8, where, with the exception of a couple three frames, every photograph was perfect. | ||
| Then I got an Apollo 12 catalog, which contained the data From the rendezvous and landing near the Surveyor 3 spacecraft by Alan Bean in the Sea of Storms. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| In November of 69, the second lunar landing mission. | ||
| I recall. | ||
| And there were 50-some, 60-some pictures reproduced in that catalogue. | ||
| And those were all perfect. | ||
| And I began to say, this is kind of weird. | ||
| Because either we had a drastic fall-off in catalogue production technology at NASA, Between 1969 and 1971. | ||
| Or we had a radical shortage of ink, particularly white ink. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| Or, maybe there's something more interesting because the photographs that were blank were of Ukert. | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| Anyway, the bottom line is we can prove that someone has faked the data. | ||
| Someone has altered the data. | ||
| So, if you were a geologist in Dubuque at the University, And you were ordering from the National Catalog photographs from the National Archive? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Would you pay hundreds of dollars for a blank frame? | ||
| No, I wouldn't. | ||
| Well, when you see the video, I will show you the blank frame, I will take you through the catalogs and show you side-by-side comparisons, and then I come up on the actual picture, which the number is AS10-32-4822, and then I turn on the picture, and it's absolutely stunning. | ||
| There's nothing wrong with it, except There are things on the picture that NASA never got around to telling us about. | ||
| Telling us about? | ||
| Calling our attention to? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Well... Now, the even more interesting thing is we began to go through this process in depth, and I began to order the same frames from Houston and from other archives. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Guess what? | ||
| Things change. | ||
| There are several 4822s. | ||
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Oh my. | |
| And some of them have things on them that others don't, and some of them have brilliant specular reflections caused by planar surfaces that are literally a mile square. | ||
| A mile square? | ||
| A mile square. | ||
| Rough calculation. | ||
| Have you ever flown past New York or Los Angeles at sunset? | ||
| Or any major city? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| and you've seen the brilliant reflections of the skyscrapers and all those glass buildings | ||
| now with parallel, you know, windows that form mirrors at sunset at the right angle? | ||
| Absolutely, yes. | ||
| Um, uh, L.A. Law has some beautiful aerials during some of the latter years of their, | ||
| of their series, where they had helicopter shots going between the skyscrapers in downtown | ||
| L.A. and you get wondrous light reflections. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| We are seeing light reflections from the skyscrapers on the moon art. | ||
| You just called them skyscrapers? | ||
| Well, what would you call something that sticks several thousand feet tall and is rectangular and has windows and reflects the sun? | ||
| Excuse me, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. | ||
| Windows? | ||
| Windows. | ||
| Windows. | ||
| How do you discern windows? | ||
| By their geometric shape? | ||
| Richard, these are on the dark side? | ||
| No, these are on the front. | ||
| These are on the front of the moon? | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| See, we've been living art with the illusion of openness. | ||
| We have been conned. | ||
| How much more plain... And remember, this has now been vetted by geologists. | ||
| It's been seen by 600 people. | ||
| It's soon going to be seen by, you know, a lot of people. | ||
| I'm going to be going to Los Angeles this weekend and presenting the data at a UFO conference there. | ||
| You know that I never Do UFO conferences. | ||
| I know that, yes. | ||
| I'm doing this because this data has got to get out. | ||
| And I'm going to be seeing some Hollywood people, producers, media types, and I'm just using the opportunity en route to another conference in Hawaii to show people in various parts of the country what their government has taken from them and not let them see for 30 years. | ||
| Richard, what about the networks? | ||
| I mean, right now, what about the networks? | ||
| Which networks? | ||
| Well, who cares? | ||
| This is a gigantic story. | ||
| CNN... We're working on it. | ||
| ABC, CBS? | ||
| Yes, yes, yes. | ||
| So and so forth. | ||
| Have you spoken to any of them? | ||
| Remember, the moon is not going away. | ||
| The moon is not going away, it's true. | ||
| I have been very careful to prepare an airtight case. | ||
| You know, think of Perry Mason. | ||
| I get one shot here, and it's got to be airtight. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| Well, this is airtight. | ||
| And I debuted it at Ohio State University. | ||
| The reason we picked Ohio State is that the invitation came up, you know, kind of at the right time. | ||
| It's ironic that it's Ohio State because they have a radio astronomer named Frank Krause who was a rebel in his day and who built, with great opposition, a kind of amateur radio telescope which was one of the first to be used for SETI, for the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And it felt to me kind of appropriate to stand on the stage at Ohio State and debut You know, photographic evidence, incontrovertible evidence that there is something on the moon that does not belong, built by someone a long time ago, and this government did not tell the citizens who paid for the pictures of the trip. | ||
| I can't imagine that this government, having that information, would not, if necessary, conduct a secret trip to the moon and go and visit this edifice, whatever it is. | ||
| Well, that I presume as we move through this process. | ||
| Remember, this is the beginning of the space program all over again. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| We'll find out. | ||
| Let me tell you how we're going to find out. | ||
| Within 48 hours of my address at Ohio State, I got a call from a very well-connected intelligence source, who has now told me two things that I need This came in so recently that I have not been able to check it out. | ||
| He told me that there is a representative of the Army Intelligence Service, the Army Intelligence Corps, who wants to talk to me on the record and will attest to the fact that they've known this for 30 years. | ||
| That I thought was interesting. | ||
| Interesting, yes. | ||
| The other thing this source told me was that there was a recent briefing in England of a group using current Clementine data from the recently completed Pentagon mission to the moon. | ||
| Short on time, yes. | ||
| Which shows the same kind of structures in another place that we have found around Ukirk. | ||
| Another place? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Now, obviously, there's a lot of work for us to do, both at the level of science, and maybe more important, the level of politics and intelligence. | ||
| But the dam is about to burst. | ||
| Art, you are witnessing the beginning of the new era because you can't hide the moon. | ||
| All right, Richard, hold it right there. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| That's a good place to hold it, as a matter of fact. | ||
| Well, if this doesn't keep you riveted, check your pulse. | ||
| you're probably not really here. | ||
|
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♪♪ ♪♪ | |
| We're hearing Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell on the CBC Radio Network. | ||
| Good morning, everybody. | ||
| It's an earth-crusher this morning. | ||
| Maybe that'd be a moon-crusher, I don't know. | ||
| Richard Hoagland, author of Monuments of Mars, NASA consultant at one time, is our guest, and he's kind of blowing it wide open this morning. | ||
| He says he's found and has absolute proof Not wondering about it, proof. | ||
| Not speculative discussion, but proof that there are artificial structures on Mars. | ||
| Not little ones, either. | ||
| Big ones. | ||
| Real big ones. | ||
| And so we're going to be talking more about that. | ||
| And now back to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Richard. | ||
| Richard, if, you know, this radio program's going to a lot of the country. | ||
| And if, as a result of this radio program, somebody at one of the big networks, or one of the major newspapers around the country, would like to contact you, verify your information, and get themselves the story of the century, would you be up for that, or are you going to follow? | ||
| We are ready. | ||
| You're ready? | ||
| We are ready. | ||
| No, I mean, we would not have done this at Ohio State on Thursday night if we weren't ready. | ||
| And the only hang-up is that I want to get this into the hands of ordinary folks in a way that they can really Walk through. | ||
| If you present these photographs, just as photographs, some people will instantly recognize how extraordinary and anomalous they are. | ||
| But we live in a culture where there is, either by accident or design, almost what I call educational dysfunction. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| People don't understand process anymore. | ||
| They don't understand how the lunar environment is so radically different than the Earth, that what we're seeing, things sticking up, you know, a mile or two into the sky... Yes. | ||
| It cannot possibly exist that glass, cubical, geometric structures reflecting sunlight as a spacecraft goes by cannot exist naturally in the lunar environment. | ||
| So what I did at Ohio State is I basically gave everyone a step-by-step instructional program in how to view the moon, starting at square one. | ||
| And I took them through the processes, the geology, the environment, the comparison with Earth, the fact that you don't have water, you don't have air, You don't have clouds, you don't have geology as we know it. | ||
| It's a very simple, stochastic, erosional environment where nothing but a meteoric bombardment beats down everything. | ||
| Bashes, bashes, smashes, destroys. | ||
| So you basically have rounded terrain eventually with lots and lots of rounded craters. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| The things we're seeing set against that terrain are so stunning. | ||
| That if you're a geologist, you literally leap out of your seat, as I had two guys do at Ohio State the other night, Jim Rjavik and Dr. Bruce Cornett. | ||
| Dr. Cornett, who is a former geologist with the Lamont-Doherty Observatory here in New York at Columbia University, has written a paper, a technical review of our data, and it has been published on the Internet. | ||
|
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Oh? | |
| So all you have to do is do a search under Cornett. | ||
| How has your data been received in this document? | ||
| Well, excellently. | ||
| I mean, Cornett basically affirms everything we think we've got. | ||
| And that was up until, what, three or four weeks ago. | ||
| And he had not seen the data, you know, recently up until the other night. | ||
| So I had several new things that we had been working on to surprise him. | ||
| And surprise him we did. | ||
| But what he has done is to provide this independent critique with the frame numbers. | ||
| And it's very important that we get people the frame numbers so they now can begin to order them. | ||
| From Houston, from the National Space Data Center outside Washington, from the other NASA archives. | ||
| And maybe more important is they begin to look to their own files and their own collectibles that they've squirreled away over the years. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| A lot of the good information that we got early on in this investigation came from private individuals who basically were amateur astronomers and space program aficionados who just kept everything, thank God. | ||
| You see, in the beginning, Art, the system was honest and NASA gave away thousands upon thousands of pictures. | ||
| I recall, yes. | ||
| The way we're going to keep this honest is that since we've now identified some of those hidden material, we will compare what NASA has in the archives now with what they gave us and with what people have been retaining in private reserves and private archives. | ||
| If all the data sets don't match, If 4822 from Apollo 10, AS1032-4822 isn't the same in every single representation, you got him! | ||
| And you are putting together a videotape that you might call Moon the Big Lie. | ||
| Well, no, I'm going to call it the Moon-Mars Connection. | ||
| The Moon-Mars Connection? | ||
| Yep, because there is a connection. | ||
| We were led to this site by decoding the monuments of Mars. | ||
| What do you think these things are, Richard? | ||
| Well, they're structures. | ||
| What we're looking at are remnants Let me tell you the major discovery I think we've made here. | ||
| We have found the remnants of two huge domes doming into Mare on the moon. | ||
| One is Mare Crisium, which is in the upper right-hand corner of the moon. | ||
| Go to an astronomy textbook and look at Mare Crisium, and one of the first things you'll notice is it has a hexagonal configuration. | ||
| That is not an accident. | ||
| That is a reflection of the artificial glass multi-layered dome that we have now found arching over Chryseum, photographed and commented upon, we found in Apollo transcripts, by the astronauts themselves. | ||
| And they didn't know what they were seeing, Art. | ||
| I wonder, Richard, by what deduction you conclude these are artifacts and not presently used structures? | ||
| Oh, because they're incredibly ancient and eroded. | ||
| They have been bashed to hell by hundreds of millions of years of meteorite bombardment if the calibration curves that we get from other space science input is accurate. | ||
| This is very, very, very, very ancient stuff. | ||
| Very old stuff. | ||
| Very old stuff. | ||
| This is so awesomely old that I can tell you what happened now. | ||
| We found this stuff. | ||
| Somebody in NASA looked at the photographs or put the data together and they figured it out and they took it to a tiny handful in this government And they literally freaked out and they said, oh my God, we can't show anybody this. | ||
| And they hid it from the rest of NASA and the rest of us. | ||
| And they've been terrified that someone would find out for 30 plus years. | ||
| Richard, I want to run something by you. | ||
| This last Sunday on Dreamland, I had a physicist on who is of the opinion that we have had a number of polar changes, polar shifts. | ||
| And that there have been previous civilizations that are not necessarily... In other words, our current ETs, if they exist, are not really from any place else. | ||
| But, in fact, from previous civilizations where humanity has risen to some level or another of technology and then been smashed down, much like the dinosaurs, by polar shifts. | ||
| Who's the physicist? | ||
| I'm sorry, I'll come up with his name. | ||
| R.W. | ||
| Whitfield. | ||
| And where is he from? | ||
| What has he published that one could refer to? | ||
| He's published a book called The Force. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Alright, and you can refer to that, but that... Okay, next week, no, two weeks from now, I am coming to your part of the country. | ||
| I'm coming to Arizona, and I'm going to get together with some Hopi elders, because our calculations, in terms of the hyperdimensional physics, looking backward now at the history of the Earth... Right. | ||
| Uh, indicate that, in fact, this is quite possible. | ||
| And I believe that the four worlds of the Hopi reflect the idea of four previous epochs where civilization rose to a remarkable height and then something happened. | ||
| There you go, Richard. | ||
| Some catastrophe. | ||
| He mentioned the Hopi. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Well, I, I, I, for some reason they're going to sit down and talk to me. | ||
| They have seen the UN briefing. | ||
| They had seen the tape and it apparently is now time for us to have the conversation. | ||
| The reason that this is good timing is because I believe that if one is concerned that this could happen again, in this physics there are things we can do. | ||
| We are not powerless to do something about this, as awesome as that may sound. | ||
| And part of the secret, part of the reason why we've got to get to the moon, is to find out the knowledge and expertise which I think must exist there in some archives, plural, that is at a level below the level of meteorite bombardment | ||
| and devastation we see because from other indications I think that things probably | ||
| go down as deep in the moon as they extend above it in terms of the photographs that we've | ||
| been analyzing. | ||
| One of the reasons I brought that up or set that up, Richard, is because... | ||
| Yeah, why did you set that up, Mark? | ||
| I set that up. | ||
| I set that up because if we're looking for motivations to keep something secret, | ||
| if the answer is that we're going to get wiped out, there's going to be a polar shift, | ||
| and according to this physicist, that would produce 800 mile an hour winds. | ||
| It would literally bury this civilization, just about any traces of this civilization, | ||
| the earth changes that would occur and so forth, would devastate it. | ||
| He says there are prior civilizations, and they are literally buried. | ||
| Very down very far. | ||
| I don't quite understand the connection with the moon. | ||
| Well, the connection is that some prior civilization may have constructed the things that you're seeing on the moon. | ||
| And that, in fact, as you follow the logic, the question is what happened to that civilization. | ||
| It then becomes apparent that another polar shift is coming and that's not good news. | ||
| What we're looking at is if And now we're really at the boundary of speculation. | ||
| Yes, I understand. | ||
| Remember, we're looking at... They're very good photographs. | ||
| We're seeing detail down to the order of meters, alright? | ||
| Feet, on these photographs. | ||
| One of our geologists believes that some of the photographs that I'm showing are the footings in the northwestern area of the actual dome. | ||
| That the erosion has been so severe that we're now seeing the foundations. | ||
| What we see are mile after mile after mile of absolutely parallel double craters. | ||
| All aligned with each other. | ||
| In three dimensions. | ||
| Oh, did I mention that this stuff is made out of glass? | ||
| How can you know that? | ||
| Because you can see through it! | ||
| Glass has a certain refractive index, and as you change the angle, there are predictable laws called Snell's Laws of Refraction and Reflection. | ||
| And this stuff is good out of glass. | ||
| Now, before you say, wait a minute, he's gone over the edge here. | ||
| There is a NASA study, which I cite, you know, and you'll see in the video, by a gentleman who is located not very far from you, as miles go. | ||
| He is at the Los Alamos National Laboratory over in New Mexico. | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| His name is Dr. James Blaikick, and he has written a number of articles over the years, including some in Scientific American on lunar basing. | ||
| You know, NASA building lunar bases on the moon? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Guess what Dr. Blakey's first material of choice for building an American lunar base on the moon is? | ||
| Glass. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| You know why? | ||
| First of all, because it's incredibly abundant. | ||
| About two-thirds of the lunar surface is silicon and oxygen, which is silicon dioxide, better known as quartz, better known as sand, better known as glass, guys, if you apply some heat to it. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The other thing is that in an airless, waterless environment, such as the moon, or an anhydrous environment, don't you love those technical terms? | ||
| I do. | ||
| Anhydrous, waterless. | ||
| Glass will not crack and have crystal dislocations, so Blaikin's calculations are that glass will have the structural strength of steel. | ||
|
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Huh. | |
| Now when you see what we've got to show you, Somebody put this knowledge to good use and built some pretty amazing and extraordinarily awesome stuff a long time ago, and we're looking at stuff on a scale so vast, Art, the only thing I can term it is mega-engineering. | ||
| What would its properties be with regard to maintaining an atmosphere? | ||
| Oh, well, it is compartmentalized. | ||
| You don't, you know, we're not talking about a single dome, you know, the classic science fiction dome. | ||
| Right. | ||
| We're talking about multiple layers, multiple levels, interior enclosures. | ||
| Think of a compartmentalized ship. | ||
| Sure, it would make sense. | ||
| Yeah, and you see, if you have a meteor hole in one section, you don't lose the air in that section, you don't lose the air in the entire dome. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| But, what we're dealing with is a structure on the moon, Maricrucian, which is the size of the basin of Los Angeles, domed over, with a dome that rises, in some places, we think 60-70 miles high. | ||
| Oh my gosh. | ||
| And we are seeing fragments suspended in mid-air on the photographs. | ||
| Fragments suspended? | ||
| Geometric fragments of glass reflecting in the sun with shadows and 3D structure and the associated rebar, the matrix, the dark, probably titanium-iron matrix that held them together, the kind of... Have you ever seen close-up photos of the Biosphere 2 in Arizona? | ||
| Yes, I have, but wait a minute, there is no air on the moon, so suspended, but perhaps... Well, suspended by the structure. | ||
| Oh, I've got you, all right. | ||
| And you're looking at parts of it, because most of it's been destroyed. | ||
| I mean, we're looking at something that's so incredibly ancient. | ||
| And I know, to people tuning in, this sounds like you're talking about a science fiction novel. | ||
| No, we're talking about photographs taken by the astronauts of structures that they didn't get around to telling you about. | ||
| And we debuted them last Thursday night at Ohio State University. | ||
| And I'm going to go to Los Angeles, and if you want to come, And see them simply find the conference at the airport, Hyatt, at the airport there, and, you know, come in and we're going to do it in three parts on Saturday and Sunday. | ||
| And we'll show you lots of pictures, 3D views, different lighting, different geometries, and I guarantee you, your life will never be the same. | ||
| This is real. | ||
| This stands still. | ||
| In fact, one of our plans, the reason that I'm now casting around for how to recontext the Mars mission, we are planning to go. | ||
| The technology exists, Art, that we can get the money and build a spacecraft and simply go. | ||
| If the Pentagon can go with Clementine, $75 million, and Universal can build a Back to the Future ride a few miles away from you for $40 million, you think we can get the resources to go and take some incredible pictures and maybe rove around with a robot? | ||
| Oh, I think so. | ||
| That's what we have on the drawing board. | ||
| That's what I want to do. | ||
| It's time for the space program to graduate and get back to the hands But I guess I say again, Richard, unless you force this wide open, which of course is what you're trying to do, if they've kept it secret and they knew it was there, I would have to say they went and took a look. | ||
| They know exactly what's there. | ||
| Oh, I'm sure they did. | ||
| They've got close-up pictures. | ||
| Which is why President Bill Clinton has got to do with this what he did with the AEC. | ||
| I mean, look, what is more horrible? | ||
| The revelation that this government of by and for the people deliberately gave radioactive breakfast cereals to mentally retarded children in institutions in New England at the height of the Cold War under the guise of national security gagged me with a spoon or That we've taken some pictures of an ancient civilization on the moon, and we're simply going to open the files and show people what we've got, and now go back and exploit what we found. | ||
| Do you think Bill Clinton knew those revelations were going to be made? | ||
| I feel the same way, that he was surprised by it. | ||
| Hazel O'Leary says that he brought them all into the Oval Office within days of the inauguration, and basically said, look guys, go to the files, find out what's there, and make it public. | ||
| What bothers me is that Dan Golden, Head of NASA. | ||
| Holdover from Bush Quayle is still head of NASA. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| My sources, my close sources to the Clintons tell me that the reason is that they've been very busy with a lot of other stuff and NASA frankly has not gotten the attention that it deserves. | ||
| I am willing to accept that at face value. | ||
| The acid test will be after I have shown the administration what we've got and that is on track. | ||
| We have had discussions now with the right people and conversations are proceeding very fast. | ||
| And those tapes that are going to come to you are also going to Washington and Little Rock and other places? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Once that is circulating and once they decide that we're for real and this data is there and the geologists are right... It will help them decide. | ||
| It will help them a lot decide. | ||
| Not the least of which is for the people listening to this program tonight. | ||
| To help them decide as well. | ||
| What would you recommend they do? | ||
| Letters? | ||
| Phone calls? | ||
| Faxes? | ||
| Tell Mr. Clinton that he can be the John Kennedy he wants to be. | ||
| Pick up the Kennedy dream and resume the vision. | ||
| Did you see the 60 Minutes piece on the Clintons this last Sunday? | ||
| No. | ||
| I was in Albuquerque. | ||
| Bob Woodward has a new book called The Agenda. | ||
| Yes, I know. | ||
| It depicts a chaotic, a totally chaotic White House. | ||
| I know, but I have a problem with Bob Woodward's representation. | ||
| I mean, I have independent sources. | ||
| Anytime you label a book the agenda... Yes. | ||
| I mean, that's been controlled from the start. | ||
| Well, you could suggest it reveals an agenda, yes. | ||
| Well, maybe so, but there still is a general reputation Mr. Clinton has of having a very difficult time making decisions. | ||
| So I wonder if we ought to be writing to him or Hillary. | ||
| Maybe we need to help him make this one. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| That's what representative democracy is supposed to be, isn't it? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| The will of the people? | ||
| Well, people, do you want to see what's there or don't you? | ||
| It's that simple. | ||
| You think everybody's ready for it, Richard? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Overwhelmingly ready. | ||
| Desperately ready. | ||
| This planet needs a breath of fresh air. | ||
| But what if the air is not as fresh as you might imagine? | ||
| In other words, if it leads everybody to a conclusion that with regard to God or faith or our immediate or near future and the possibilities of this civilization disappearing as others may have? | ||
| Well, look, to me, knowledge replacing ignorance can't lead except in a positive direction. | ||
| You know, we survived the bomb. | ||
| We mastered that horrible genie. | ||
| We stuffed it back in the bottle, except for North Korea, all right? | ||
| We outlived the Cold War. | ||
| We didn't incinerate ourselves. | ||
| We let Nelson Mandela out of the jail in South Africa. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| The trend curve is in the right direction, Art. | ||
| This is an idea whose time has come. | ||
| All right, Richard. | ||
| Hold on. | ||
| We're going to open up the phone lines next hour. | ||
| Stay right where you are. | ||
| Richard Hoagland is my guest, author of The Monuments of Mars, and now with some startling information on the moon. | ||
| And we'll get the phone lines open into this next hour, so get your dialing finger ready. | ||
| This is CBC. | ||
|
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This is Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network. | |
| Startling is the nature of the program this morning. | ||
| My guest is Richard Hoagland. | ||
| He has been laying out now for two hours the evidence that he has with regard to the moon. | ||
| Structures on the moon miles high. | ||
| Glass structures. | ||
| Structures with windows. | ||
| He's got pictures. | ||
| He's got proof. | ||
| He laid it out at Ohio State University last week, and this morning he's telling you about it. | ||
| And we'll get back to Richard Hoagland and your calls, and we're going to begin taking calls in just a moment. | ||
| And now, back to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Richard, are you there? | ||
| I'm here. | ||
| All right. | ||
| I just had a fax come in. | ||
| Uh, from someone that I kind of want to answer obliquely on your program. | ||
| That's fine. | ||
| Let me, let me, let me, because it brings up a point that people might be curious about. | ||
| Uh, this is someone who's been listening to your program and he had a thought that the safest place on the moon to build would be in the center of the disk, because the spot enjoys the maximum amount of shielding by the Earth, in parens, from random meteor impacts. | ||
|
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Mm-hmm. | |
| He says, I'm not suggesting that this would be the only reason to locate there, but it would be a nice if marginal perk. | ||
| Unfortunately, that's all dead wrong. | ||
| See, the celestial mechanics of this are very intriguing. | ||
| What we have found is there's a range of structures on the moon now, and there are regions where things are really in horrible shape, bad shape. | ||
| Then there are other regions where they're in much better shape. | ||
| And we've been trying to understand why. | ||
| And it turns out that there are regions on the moon That are more protected from meteor bombardment than others. | ||
| Why? | ||
| Ah, okay. | ||
| This is going to be difficult to do without the pictures, but let's try. | ||
| When you look at the moon on a full moon night, alright? | ||
| Right. | ||
| You see the familiar dark circular areas called mare. | ||
|
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Yes. | |
| Which means seas in Latin. | ||
| Galileo thought they were oceans. | ||
| They are not, okay? | ||
| Uh, modern astronomers think they are lava plains caused by upwellings of lava. | ||
| I'm beginning to suspect that they are not. | ||
| Alright? | ||
| They might, in fact, be the remains of these cities with glass domes over them. | ||
| Alright? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Except for our Mari Imbrium. | ||
| Mari Imbrium, which is the one in the upper left hand corner, appears, by the way, to be an upwelling of lava. | ||
| And by accident, as I was going through these Lunar Science Conference papers, I found papers that were decrying the lack of what they call wrinkle ridges on the maria. | ||
| A wrinkle ridge is a geological term for a lava flow, like if you have lava coming out of the ground. | ||
| Yeah, as it cools. | ||
| As it cools, it forms these little wrinkles. | ||
| Well, these papers were from geologists that have been looking at the lunar data for 30 years. | ||
| They're decrying the fact that on the orbital pictures, They can't find the wrinkle ridges that they're supposed to exist if the maria are lava lakes. | ||
| Surprise, guys! | ||
| And so instead, you're beginning to conclude it may be the remnants of a city? | ||
| Well, there may be these regional areas that were the remains of cities with domes over them, and that's what the maria are. | ||
| In two areas we found strong evidence. | ||
| Now, that's where these structures are located. | ||
| One is Sinus Medi, which is the maria in the middle of the moon. | ||
| the central bay, the middle bay. | ||
| Sinus medi means middle bay in Latin. | ||
| And then in the upper right hand corner there's Mare Crisium. | ||
| You know, the sea of crises? | ||
| Yes. | ||
|
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Kind of metaphorical for NASA? | |
| Anyway, on the left hand side of the full moon, when you look at the moon on a full moon night, | ||
| on the upper left hand side there's this huge circular basin called Mare Imbrium. | ||
| That does appear to have been filled with lava. | ||
| It's the only mare on the moon that these guys, this paper, found that had actual wrinkle ridges and lava flows and all that. | ||
| And as a byproduct of doing the work on the artifacts, guess what we discovered in these papers is the upwelling point for the lava that flowed to fill Mare Imbrium. | ||
| 19.5 North. | ||
| Which is? | ||
| The geometry. | ||
| Of the circumscribed tetrahedron, the way the planetary physics works. | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| We found all the way across the solar system that the largest upwelling of lavas, or energy, or vorticular, you know, spots on giant planets, or the sunspots on the sun, is at 19.5 North and South. | ||
| Well, on the front side of the moon, in the upper left-hand side of the disk, there is this upwelling between the crater Euler, and I forget the other one, and the paper says it's between about 19 and about 22 North, With the median being at 19.5 North. | ||
| So what would have melted it? | ||
| Well, the interior of the moon has been liquid in the past. | ||
| Alright, it has cooled. | ||
| Now that of course gives us some relative dating because we've got lunar rocks, right? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| In those lunar rocks we probably have crushed bits of debris of stuff that's not natural. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That is artificial, which means that in the half ton of lunar material That the astronauts brought back, if we're lucky, there is actual artificial material mixed in that should be evident in the chemical and isotopic and other signature analysis. | ||
| I remember, Richard, after they brought the moon rocks back, everybody had great expectations. | ||
| There was a long period of scientific examination, after which they basically came back and said, they're rocks. | ||
| Well, they're not. | ||
| I mean, that's a very, very, very outside perspective. | ||
| When you really get into the papers, and I have now spent a year and a half going through the papers, there are wondrous clues that in some of the material returned by the astronauts, we have actual samples of beaten, smashed, previously manufactured stuff. | ||
| Hmm. | ||
| Because of the weird chemistry, the weird isotopes. | ||
| I mean, these things are weird. | ||
| All right, here's a relative fact, perhaps. | ||
| Several years ago, it comes from Phoenix. | ||
| I heard from a source that I cannot disclose, of course, that sonar buoy-type detectors were put on the moon. | ||
| At a later time, a hard landing was made in the vicinity of the buoys, and an echo was detected that would indicate the moon was not solid. | ||
| Does your guest have any knowledge of that incident? | ||
| Okay, very perceptive fact. | ||
| Let me try to, again, do this in context. | ||
| Um, they weren't sonar buoys. | ||
| What they were were seismographic stations. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| Designed to measure moonquakes. | ||
| Right. | ||
| We're basically talking sound waves through the moon. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| I mean, a seismograph is a sound wave detector through rock. | ||
| And when you have an earthquake in China, you know, during the Cold War we put up a lot of networks of seismic instruments around the world to kind of catch the Russians. | ||
| To see if they were banging off nuclear tests as part of, you know, the violation of the Test Ban Treaty. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Now we have all these neat seismic arrays and we have computers and we can do 3D tomography, kind of x-ray, sonar seismic x-ray of the interior of the Earth using this technology from the Cold War. | ||
| Well, we took a few instruments, somewhat primitive. | ||
| The principal investigator was a colleague of Dr. Cornett's at Lamont-Doherty. | ||
| A guy named Dr. Gary Latham, who I met at CBS when I was Cronkite's science advisor back in the days of the Apollo program. | ||
| Very nice guy. | ||
| He had a team of scientists stretching from Rice University to MIT, and I think even a couple over in Japan. | ||
| And they fielded about five or six instruments in various places around the moon during the Apollo program. | ||
| The Apollo 11 astronauts left, the seismic instrument, the Apollo 12 astronauts, and so on and so on. | ||
| Some of them lasted for the full program. | ||
| Some of them, you know, crapped out two weeks after they were left. | ||
| The Apollo 11 instrument died about two weeks after the astronauts came home, I think. | ||
| But they were powered by a nuclear battery, and they basically ran until NASA turned the whole network off for some mysterious reason. | ||
| I mean, they claimed they couldn't afford it. | ||
| You know how much it costs I'll tell you why I think art is because the seismic data is a major clue to artificial structures on the moon. | ||
| Your listener with his facts is onto it. | ||
| Why in the world would they turn it off while it was still... | ||
| I'll tell you why I think, Art, it's because the seismic data is a major clue to artificial structures on the moon. | ||
| Your listener, with his facts, is on to it. | ||
| Let me try to explain this, because this is important, because we have not only looked at the pictures, | ||
| we've also looked at all of the other correlative data sets, all of the other, you know, instrument readings and | ||
| observations, and we've got one hell of a picture, which is converging on, | ||
| we've got it. | ||
| We've got it nailed! | ||
| There are things there that are not natural, and they're large, and they're extensive, and they affected the seismic instrument readings. | ||
| And this is how it works. | ||
| During the several years that the network survived, that it was allowed to run and return data, from 1969 to 1977, when they suddenly turned them off, miles and miles and miles of computer tape were recorded of instrument readings from five or six sites around the front side of the moon where the Apollo astronauts had left these instruments. | ||
| That'd be a lot of data. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| They recorded internal quakes. | ||
| They retartled external meteor impacts, and during the Apollo program itself, NASA directed the final stage of the Apollo moon rocket to crash land on the moon, and the ascent stage of the lunar module. | ||
| When the astronauts came back up and rendezvoused with the command module, and transferred everything to come home, they left the ascent stage, which was the top of the lunar module in orbit. | ||
| It then could be commanded by radio to de-orbit and impact on the moon. | ||
| And the idea was, on Earth, when you're doing seismic surveys, you need a powerful source | ||
| of sound waves. | ||
| If you wait for a natural earthquake, you may wait a long time. | ||
| So what do you do in the oil business? | ||
| You create your own earthquakes. | ||
| And you're right. | ||
| You can literally map with it. | ||
| at a dynamite. And you're right. And you know the shock waves go out and then you can listen | ||
| to the reflected sound waves with this instrument called a seismograph. You can literally map | ||
| with it. You can map the underground formation. So the same technique was applied to the moon | ||
| except the astronauts did not bring dynamite although in fact they did bring some shaped | ||
| charges that they set off by remote control after the moon. | ||
| after Apollo 17 when the astronauts were safely en route home. | ||
| What they did was they would direct the third stages, the S4B stage, the upper stage of | ||
| the Apollo stack as it was called. | ||
| Remember, you leave the Earth at 25,000 miles per hour. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| If you don't slow down, you will impact the moon at something like 6,000 miles an hour. | ||
| Now what do you think a 23-ton vehicle impacting at 6,000 miles an hour would do in the way | ||
| of creating a big sound wave. | ||
| Oh, big sound wave. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So, it would be like it was about the equivalent of 11 tons of TNT, if I remember my numbers. | ||
| Alright? | ||
| 11 tons of TNT. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| When these things hit, and they were directed to land in very precise areas so that they would, the sound waves would reach all of the seismographs. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You basically got instantaneous profile, or not instantaneous, but with the sound travels at a certain velocity through the moon's crust. | ||
| So by watching the delays and which seismographs were activated first and second and third, you get a beautiful mapping of the surface composition and velocity and structure and all that of the moon. | ||
| Well, the first one they did this with, which was Apollo 11, the damn moon rang for over an hour. | ||
| Oh? | ||
| Now, earthquakes on Earth, the wave train, the sound waves, damp out quickly in a few minutes. | ||
| One, two minutes, three minutes tops. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The Earth does not resonate. | ||
| It doesn't ring for an hour. | ||
| Ultimately, when they have the network in place, one of the impacts of the S-4B, the moon rang for over four and a half hours. | ||
| The only way that could be, No, no, don't say it, because it's not true. | ||
| You know, this is where you need mechanical engineers. | ||
| The simple, dumb idea is the moon is hollow. | ||
| The moon is not hollow. | ||
| That's what I was going to say. | ||
| But, if there are structures... When you were a kid, Art, did you ever... Oh, tuning forks. | ||
| Did you ever play on a railroad trestle? | ||
| Well, I was going to say tuning forks. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| If you know how trestle structures are made... I do. | ||
| Large, honeycomb structures. | ||
| Right. | ||
| If you get a sound wave going in a honeycomb truss structure, the waves will shuttle back and forth and be reflected back and forth by the truss, and you have created, in essence, a standing wave reservoir. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| That will store the sound energy, and it will leak slowly out into the surrounding environment, so that if you get it going, if you get it excited, if you get it vibrating, like a tuning fork, it will hum for a long time. | ||
| Oh boy. | ||
| And this is what the seismographs have found. | ||
| Now, let me tell you what I think happened. | ||
| I think in 77, they figured out that the seismographs were literally recording with every impact | ||
| of a meteor evidence of these structures, and they turned the switch off. | ||
| So there's no more data. | ||
| Incredible. | ||
| One more. | ||
| Yeah, this government is incredible. | ||
| One more for you. | ||
| This one from California. | ||
| I've got a question for your guest. | ||
| Knowing that the reason for skyscrapers on Earth is due to economic competition for land in certain geographic areas, what would be the reason for a skyscraper on the moon? | ||
| There is no competition for land on the moon, so it would be more economically logical to build smaller structures covering a larger area. | ||
| Those we have found. | ||
| But, how about a view? | ||
| A view? | ||
| A view. | ||
| A moonscape view? | ||
| A room with a view. | ||
| A room with a view. | ||
| You know, choice real estate. | ||
| We cannot apply conventional, terrestrial, late 20th century economics to this. | ||
| If there's one thing I can say with absolute certainty, and I believe there's not very many things I can say with certainty other than this stuff is real, I can't say this. | ||
| We're talking about high-rise structures, right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Made of high-tech materials, titanium, steel, glass, whatever. | ||
| They were not built by Mohawks. | ||
| We're not talking about conventional terrestrial building technology. | ||
| What we're looking at was done by robots, because of the scale, the mega-engineering, and the energy source was obviously an application of the physics, hyper-dimensional physics. | ||
| With those two prerequisites, robotics and unlimited energy, the idea of cost is a non sequitur. | ||
| It doesn't mean anything. | ||
| Whoever did this was not considering cost. | ||
| But it's interesting that the sub we have found, and it's very tall, it would have the most extraordinary view of the Earth, which would be directly overhead, 80 times brighter than full moonlight, a glorious blue-green disk twirling against black space in the vacuum every 24 hours. | ||
| It would be a room with a view. | ||
| Richard, how many windows have you found? | ||
| Or is that a silly question? | ||
| It's a silly question. | ||
| It's too many to count. | ||
| When you see the pictures, Art, you'll know why. | ||
| I mean, this is really kind of... The Constitution forbids people cruel, unusual punishment, and I am subjecting Art Bell to cruel, unusual punishment tonight. | ||
| It is because I've not seen them, and I long to see them. | ||
| You will. | ||
| I guarantee you will, shortly. | ||
| And the reaction from the people that you've shown all this to... Overwhelming. | ||
| Overwhelming. | ||
| I'm even able to impress very, very skeptical New York producers. | ||
| That's how good this stuff is. | ||
| So what do they come to you afterwards and say? | ||
| Well, they're boggled, because I frankly think they're more boggled by the political implications than by the technical, because they don't really understand what it means to have discovered this much stuff this vast and this old. | ||
| We don't think normally in these time frames. | ||
| This is cosmic time. | ||
| This is more the scale of my dear friend, Arthur C. Clarke. | ||
| That's why I opened my presentation at Ohio State with a reprise of 2001. | ||
| 2001, boys and girls! | ||
| Well, it's not far from the obelisk, is it? | ||
| Well, did you know, by the way, here's a cute little thing, that Arthur's original idea for the monolith In 2001, remember the teaching machine? | ||
| Of course. | ||
| With the geometry, the 1 by 4 by 9 ratio? | ||
| Yes, sir, I do. | ||
| Was supposed to be a black tetrahedron. | ||
| You didn't know that, did you? | ||
| Where did he come up with that, anyway? | ||
| He came up with it and then rejected it because he thought pyramids were a cliché, but I'll tell you where this is going. | ||
| I think that a lot of our science fiction is really Jungian collective unconscious memories, because somehow we're plugged in And some of us know some of this stuff at some deep level, and it comes out as good science fiction. | ||
| Now, I can't prove that yet, but it's a hell of a model to start working on. | ||
| No, it really is, Richard. | ||
| I really think that it is. | ||
| Again, the physicist that I had on this last Sunday, He said that he believes that we have some sort of genetic or collective memory that is largely blanked out by the noise level of today's society, but some are in tune, and some know that a drastic change, in his view, this polar shift, is coming, and somehow collectively we feel that coming. | ||
| Well, I don't know whether I agree with it that we feel that, but I think that we may have memories of previous epochs when the environment suddenly radically changed. | ||
| And what I am hoping to do with this research project is to get a handle on the physics of those changes and simply prevent them. | ||
| Now, why would we possibly be able to even consider such an awesome feat? | ||
| I mean, isn't nature too big for us to handle? | ||
| That's where the lunar material is crucially important because the scale of what we're seeing on the Moon are and the awesome nature of how it is distributed Indicate to me that we're dealing with a physics that can handle terrestrial earth changes provided we get smart enough, quick enough, and apply this knowledge. | ||
| So you're saying you think something could be done even if some sort of catastrophe was on the way? | ||
| Well, we have some models, and they're just the beginnings of models, and they're not rigorous mathematical models yet. | ||
| They're basically qualitative. | ||
| We're in the process of trying to figure out why there should have been these earth changes in the past. | ||
| As part of our geophysics, part of the hyperdimensional physics that we've been working on to go after the monuments of Mars. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And that's what I'm going to sit down with a Hopi and talk about. | ||
| And in the sense that the essence of good science is prediction. | ||
| What I'm hoping will happen is I will lay out our model for what I think happened. | ||
| All right, Richard. | ||
| And they will tell me, oh, and they'll tell me things they haven't told someone else, which confirms Another part of the model. | ||
| All right, hold that thought. | ||
| We're at the bottom of the hour. | ||
| We'll be back. | ||
| Gotta get the phone lines open here, Richard. | ||
| All right, everybody, stand by. | ||
| We'll get phone lines open coming next. | ||
| My guest is Richard Hoagland, and he's blowing people away this morning. | ||
| No question about that. | ||
| Blowing people away. | ||
| As a matter of fact, I've got some faxes here, and we're about to get back to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| One of them says, wow, wow, wow, in giant letters at the top. | ||
| Richard, I know you're listening, so contemplate this while I do a little work. | ||
| What is the single most compelling piece of evidence that you have? | ||
| Is it possible these reflections were just light on the camera lens itself, or perhaps defects in the film? | ||
| That's one, Richard. | ||
| Dear Art, sorry if I missed it, but has your guest said anything about a possible relationship between the structures on Mars, the Moon, and our own pyramids in Egypt? | ||
| Richard Nart, we've done quite a bit of reading and studying of the Hopi Indians, and what the white man calls their myth and legends. | ||
| There is one that is very interesting, considering the Hopi have contacted you and want to meet with you. | ||
| The legend talks about when the eagle is seen on the moon, then they would know that the time of the present world was drawing to an end. | ||
| Since our first lunar landing craft was named Eagle, I find this fact linked with your new information about the structures apparent on the moon to be very interesting, and wonder if this fact would have anything to do with the request of the Hopi to meet with you. | ||
| From KSD in St. | ||
| Louis, is it possible our guest has been keeping a lid on this? | ||
| Because it's the most benign aspect of the ET cover-up. | ||
| And we'll get back to Richard Hoagland and possibly the answer to some of those questions. | ||
| And I promise, I promise, your phone calls, there has been so much information to get out, it's been hard to get to the phone lines. | ||
| And also there right now is Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Did you hear a couple of those faxes, Richard? | ||
| Yes, sure. | ||
| Uh, did you like any of the questions? | ||
| Oh, very interesting, fascinating questions. | ||
| Um, which one do you want me to answer first? | ||
| Well, alright, the most single, compelling piece of evidence that you have, and uh, could it have been light reflections? | ||
| Well, obviously this is the first thing that we try to eliminate, and what I want to stress is that we have now gone through three different types of missions to find photography that overlaps the same area. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| We have the Lunar Orbiter, which was a mission that basically there were five missions in the Lunar Orbiter series. | ||
| They photographed basically all of the Moon, in both overhead projection looking straight down, as well as in perspective. | ||
| All right, well, that's a good answer. | ||
| In other words, light reflections maybe once, but not three times. | ||
| No, and we have multiple geometries, multiple lighting, multiple missions, multiple technologies. | ||
| That's why I say we got it nailed. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Relationship between the structures on Mars, the Moon, and our own pyramids. | ||
| The most striking is the symbol, the sign that led us to this site. | ||
| We have an 18-mile crater called Ukurt that's located about seven degrees north of the lunar equator. | ||
| The libration can bring it down to where it's at the sub-earth point, or close to it at some times. | ||
| And inside this crater, there is a diameter equilateral triangle. | ||
| And around the rim, there are three bright portions that when you connect those edges, you get a double inscribed equilateral triangle, one within the other. | ||
| And that, of course, is the mathematics represented in the monuments of Mars and at the Giza Plateau. | ||
| And in many ancient sites around the world, in other cultures. | ||
| So in the sense of there being a connection, that's the starting point for the connection. | ||
| Somebody knew the same math and geometry and physics. | ||
| Is it possible our government has been keeping a lid on this because it's the most benign aspect of the, quote, E.T. | ||
|
unidentified
|
cover-up, end quote? | |
| Yeah, I think I know what the reader is, or the author of that fact is trying to get at. | ||
| The reason that we're going to get viciously shot at for this, and, you know, it's already begun on the internet, people are saying awesomely weird things about us, is because as long as you can keep this investigation in airy fairy land, not in dreamland, airy fairy land, you don't have to confront the idea that the human race is not alone. | ||
| It is not a science. | ||
| It's the stuff on the back of cereal boxes, in the tabloids, you know, at the National Enquirer. | ||
| It's not science. | ||
| As soon as you have one Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Are we close to that? | ||
| agreed upon extraterrestrial artifact. | ||
| Suddenly, ETs go from being, you know, sightings material to being New York Times material | ||
| and general science discussion. | ||
| Are we close to that? | ||
| At that point, let me finish the thought. | ||
| At that point, all of the pent-up weirdness around the UFO stuff comes falling out of | ||
| the closet. | ||
| And that may be a good reason why someone wants to keep that closet door nailed very | ||
| Predict for me, Richard, how close are we? | ||
| When will all the blocks come tumbling down? | ||
| Well, given that we're getting about 99% of the scientists who see this data jumping up and down and freaking out and saying, oh my God, look at that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| I think it's basically governed by the economics of our distribution of the data to people who need to see it. | ||
| All right. | ||
| And at some point there will be, you know, this avalanche is going to take off by itself and we will not be able to control it. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Very quickly, because I've promised the lines, when the eagle is seen on the moon, part of the... Really interesting facts. | ||
| Really interesting. | ||
| It isn't quite as mysterious as that. | ||
| I have had my eye on the Hopi for some time because I've been looking at the geophysics. | ||
| You know, I have a very, how should I say, At one sense, utilitarian view of the usefulness of science. | ||
| I think science should be in service to mankind, to humankind. | ||
| And the idea that we could develop a physics, you know, decode these monuments, decode a physics and then not put it to use, seemed to me kind of silly. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And as we went through this, I began to realize that there were certain predictions in the physics that said that because of the current configuration of the solar system, And as you go through certain geometries of the planets relative to each other and the sun over very long periods of time, tens of thousands of years, you might run into problems. | ||
| And then I began to look at our kind of map of this and reflect on, you know, the Hopi prophecies and the other ancient material from ethnic cultures around the world, and I began to see a possible relationship between our predictions And their data. | ||
| And then when I met some of them at the United Nations here in New York, that's the one advantage of being here in New Jersey, you're close to New York, I realized I really needed to have a quiet conversation. | ||
| So I arranged to get copies of the UN briefing on Mars into their hands. | ||
| And when I was in Albuquerque recently, I met with Thomas Benyaka, who is the Hopi spokesperson of the prophecy. | ||
| And we agreed that at some point in the near future I would come out and spend some time and they agreed to bring some other folks, you know, elders together and we're going to sit down and have a kind of a quiet conversation. | ||
| That's going to be fascinating. | ||
| With no ground rules. | ||
| We'll just kind of explore. | ||
| I'm going to be looking forward to hearing the results of that. | ||
| Richard, we've got to go to the telephone line or they'll string me up. | ||
| On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Good morning. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi, good morning. | |
| Where are you? | ||
| Where are you, please? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm calling from northern Alabama. | |
| All right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I wanted to tell you yesterday that I saw his video of the monuments on Mars. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
We just rented it a few weeks ago. | |
| It was very interesting talking about the tetrahedral geometry and the 19.5 number that | ||
| certain monuments seem to come to, like on the moon and places here on Earth and stuff. | ||
| I have two questions. | ||
| I'd like to know, will this information you have, Mr. Holden, be available out on video? | ||
| When you mentioned earlier something about a Mars-Moon connection that brought you there | ||
| to this place, I think you said the Occurrent Crater. | ||
| Is there a 19.5 latitude or measurement or something in that connection with where Mars | ||
| is in this particular area that you've been talking about? | ||
| No, Urquhart lies about seven and a half north and about one and a half east in the current lunar mapping coordinate system. | ||
| It wasn't the latitude, it was this huge symbol. | ||
| Urquhart is an 18 mile diameter circular feature, we call it a crater. | ||
| But at high noon, at full moon, when the sun is directly overhead, The bottom of Oukert has a stunning, perfect equilateral triangle. | ||
| And Oukert is the closest crater at some times to the Earth. | ||
| It's almost at the sub-Earth point. | ||
| In other words, you draw a line between the center of the Earth and the center of the Moon, and it has to go through or very close to Oukert. | ||
| The idea that in the middle of the lunar disk, with a telescope, you can see a symbol that is the essence of our decoding of the monuments of Mars and the whole physics, That was just too irresistible not to pursue, and of course that resulted in us finding what we've now found. | ||
| Alright, and on the follow-up video, Richard, tell us. | ||
| The video will be available through our video distribution system. | ||
| There's an 800 number, which is 1-800-424-0031. | ||
| 1-800-424-0031 That's 1-800-424-0031 | ||
| When? | ||
| You ask for Operator 5. | ||
| All right. | ||
| You put yourself on a reservation list right now, because they don't have it yet. | ||
| They will in a few weeks. | ||
| And just ask for Volume 3 in the Hoagland's Mars series, which will be Hoagland's Mars Volume 3, the Moon-Mars connection. | ||
| When would it be in their hands in all probability? | ||
| Oh, they will ship first class as soon as we get it in, and I'm really pushing very hard to get it in there within the next month. | ||
| All right. | ||
| First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello, where are you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, this is Theodore in Tacoma, Washington. | |
| Hi, Theodore. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, how are you? | |
| Fine. | ||
| Good morning. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was just about to use Telex to war dial you. | |
| I'm glad I didn't have to do that. | ||
| How are you? | ||
| Yeah, go ahead. | ||
| You're on the air, so go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
OK. | |
| I am not listening to the program. | ||
| Well, then why are you calling? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because you told me to call. | |
| I told you to call. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, this morning. | |
| Do you remember? | ||
| Richard, oh yes, why are you not listening to the program? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Because I don't have a radio in the house. | |
| Oh, well, you'll have to call me later because I've got a guest. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, okay. | |
| Okay? | ||
| You're talking about the moon? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, I have a question. | |
| Is it true that he says there's buildings or something or structures on the moon? | ||
| Right, go listen to the radio. | ||
| On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Good evening, good morning, actually. | ||
| Uh, Art, I have a question. | ||
| All right, where are you? | ||
| How did he... No, no, this is Dick. | ||
| Where are you, Dick? | ||
| Art, can you hear me? | ||
| I hear you, yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh, Art, I gotta tell you, man, it's off the subject, but you're pedaling... Well, no, no, no, no. | |
| Uh, it's not off the subject. | ||
| You're not on the air. | ||
| Uh, on the first-time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi. | |
| Hello, where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm in, uh, Goleta. | |
| Goleta, California. | ||
| All right, good. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Listen to you on 990. | |
| I just wanted to tell you, Art, thanks God that you're out here, that we actually, this is America, and that we actually have this information available to us. | ||
| You broke the story, and thank you very much. | ||
| Well, thank you. | ||
| I don't know that I broke it, actually. | ||
| It broke in Ohio, isn't that right, Richard? | ||
| Yeah, Ohio State University, and I did Laura Lee's show the other night, and it was kind of a preview to set things up. | ||
| But we're getting into a lot more detail, and I can give out the frame numbers tonight. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, you can? | |
| Very important. | ||
| Well, then let's stop and do it. | ||
| Well, people need to look at the National Space Science Data Center. | ||
| We need to order the Apollo 10 sequence that was photographed in the Ukurt region, which | ||
| is AS1032-4809 through AS10-32-4822. | ||
| In other words, 4809, 10, 11, 12, 13. | ||
| In sequence. | ||
| In sequence. | ||
| What you want, ideally, is to request order 8x10 negatives. | ||
| 8x10 negatives. | ||
| 8x10 negatives. | ||
| Now, computer persons pay very careful attention. | ||
| You want to go to a local photographic supply facility, a good photo lab, Photoshop, if you have a friend with a darkroom, you're in Clover, You want to make sectional enlargements of your negatives into very large prints. | ||
| We've been using 20 by 24 print enlargements. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| You then want to scan them with a flatbed scanner. | ||
| Uh, grayscale. | ||
| You want to then, using commercially available programs, photo programs, you want to enhance, contrast, enhance, difference, subtract, ratio, sharpen, all the traditional things you would do | ||
| with images. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And you want to examine various sections of the photographs using this methodology. | ||
| What you can use as a guide is the video. | ||
| Alright? | ||
| The video will have on the video the frame numbers, so each time there's an enlargement or a section, | ||
| we will refer to the section of the photograph that we have used. | ||
| And the idea here is to duplicate, to follow our trail, follow our lead, | ||
| and to confirm what we have found. | ||
| Well, you just told them how they can do it, and then after you do all that, you want to put them into GIF files, please, and upload them? | ||
| And put them on the Internet, send us copies. | ||
| I would recommend the anti-matter section of the Omni group up on America Online. | ||
| I've talked with Keith Farrell. | ||
| Keith was supposed to come to OSU, and unfortunately, he had a last-minute problem. | ||
| But, even he has not seen the... Keith Harrell is the editor of Omni Magazine. | ||
| He wanted us to do something for Omni Online, and we're still debating what we might do or not do. | ||
| I'd just like to see the GIF files up there, so everybody can get it. | ||
|
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Yep, yep. | |
| Alright, on the toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
|
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Hello. | |
| There are more frame numbers, Art. | ||
| Oh, there are more frame numbers? | ||
| Oh God, yes. | ||
| Caller, hold on a second. | ||
| Hold on. | ||
| Go ahead, Richard. | ||
| You also want to request the Lunar Orbiter series. | ||
| Lunar Orbiter 3. | ||
| The Convention for Ordering Photographs from NSSBC, which is the National Space Science Data Center, which is at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland. | ||
| That's all you have to write. | ||
| National Space Science Data Center, Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| You want the Apollo 10 series, AS10-32-4809-4822. | ||
| 10, 32, 48, 09 through 48, 22. The lunar orbiter series, the following frames. Roman numeral | ||
| That stands for mission number 3. | ||
| Lunar orbiter 3. | ||
| Dash. | ||
| 84M. | ||
| On 84M, you will see a 7-mile-high crystalline tower perched on the edge of the moon. | ||
| It is a perspective shot looking southwest from just south of Ukurt toward the southwestern edge of Sinus Medi. | ||
| And on the horizon, you will see something that has no business being there. | ||
| Together, located 250 miles from the camera, because that's the distance of the horizon from the orbiter, at the altitude of 30 miles, which is where the picture was taken. | ||
| They were 30 miles down on the deck, Art. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You will see two objects sticking up above the horizon. | ||
| One is about a mile and a half high. | ||
| We call it the shard. | ||
| And it's sharp edged. | ||
| It has internal geometric detail. | ||
| It has a long shadow extending out to the right, all right, out to the northwest. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And it looks like the World Trade Tower cut off about a third of the way up. | ||
| Next to it, you will see a kind of a fuzzy, indistinct thing that is several times higher. | ||
| When you do the proper enhancement, that turns out to be a mile-wide megacube of glass crystalline cubes perched on a tower Extending seven miles down to the lunar surface at the edge of the moon's disk. | ||
| All of this, Richard, on Roman numeral 384M? | ||
| That's it. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Now, let me tell you the following. | ||
| This is where things get really cute, because we've been going to various archives. | ||
| We had my friend Joe Gill, who is the head of, or was the head of Sotheby's in New York, moved to Hawaii recently, asked me, what can I do to help? | ||
| And I told him to please go to the Hawaiian Archive, NASA's Archive at the University of Hawaii. | ||
| You're being heard in Hawaii right now. | ||
| And try to get copies of some of the photographs from the Hawaiian Archive. | ||
| Well, a lot of Hawaiians, what would you say to them? | ||
| Go to the Hawaiian Archive. | ||
| Go to the Hawaiian Archive. | ||
| Now, this is what you're going to find when you get there. | ||
| This Hawaiian Archive, which is on a rock 6,000 miles away from me right now, not exactly easy to get to. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Does not contain any facilities for making copies of any of the NASA data. | ||
| Oh boy. | ||
| They have prints. | ||
| They have a copy stand, but you must bring your own camera and your own film. | ||
| Now, is this a way that the American people are well-served by their tax dollars? | ||
| The data in the charter, it says, the widest appropriate dissemination. | ||
| Is that the widest appropriate dissemination, where I have to bring a brownie camera to photograph a print that my astronauts took on the moon? | ||
| That's my data? | ||
| Anyway, Joe went there, and he photographed a series of photos, and he sent them back, and I thought it would just be useful to record that, in fact, the data exists there. | ||
| Then I began to look carefully. | ||
| The 84M exists in Hawaii. | ||
| It is mounted upside down, first of all. | ||
| Oh, that's disturbing. | ||
| Well, it means that you will not recognize what you see on it if you're not used to standing on your head on the lunar surface. | ||
| Probably hard enough to recognize the right way around. | ||
| That's exactly right. | ||
| There is a caption on it. | ||
| It says NASA-LRC-3, meaning NASA Langley Research Center, which was the management agency within NASA that ran the Lunar Orbiter Program, and number 3 refers to Lunar Orbiter 3 mission. | ||
| Okay, so that's there. | ||
| Richard, we have to pause here. | ||
| It's the time. | ||
| Oh, there's more. | ||
| So we'll pick it up after the break. | ||
| We'll pick it up after the break. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Stay right there. | ||
| Richard Hoagland is my guest. | ||
| Breaking all this wide open this morning with some hard data. | ||
| Data you can go and retrieve and look at and decide for yourself. | ||
| This is Coast to Coast AM. | ||
|
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This is Coast to Coast AM on the CBC Radio Network. | |
| Blowing the slats right out from under a lot of conventional thought this morning. | ||
| Richard Hoagland is my guest. | ||
| Faxes are coming in like crazy. | ||
| Here's one from a St. | ||
| Louis news service. | ||
| Wants to know how to get a hold of Richard Hoagland by telephone. | ||
| Here's another one from Cogo, Los Angeles. | ||
| Fascinating. | ||
| How long has Richard Hoagland been working on this? | ||
| Can a laser be used to detect odd reflections off the surface of the moon? | ||
| Art, ask Richard, Central California somewhere I guess, ask Richard if an Egyptian pyramid could be a survival unit for a polar shift. | ||
| From Sheldon in Santa Barbara. | ||
| Great show. | ||
| Curious about the concept of windows in a structure that is made of glass to begin with. | ||
| Also curious about how directly it is known that the high-tech materials such as titanium were used. | ||
| Is this actually visible? | ||
| Or is it just sensible that they, whoever they might be, would have had to have used that kind of material? | ||
| And many more. | ||
| And we'll get back to Richard Hoagland and the answers to those and some other questions in just a moment. | ||
| And your calls. | ||
| Back now to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| The Hoagland revelations, we'll call it. | ||
| Richard, I want to finish up covering what people should have, the numbers of the photographs. | ||
| Okay, well let me finish telling you the story of 84M, Lunar Orbiter 384M, because it's really revealing of the process that's been going on, and how it's taken some clever detective work to figure it out, to find it. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| It says in Hawaii, remember we got one in Washington, one set we're supposed to have, and there's supposed to be a duplicate set of the same picture in Hawaii. | ||
| Right. | ||
| So my friend Joe Gill goes in with his camera, You give him a copy stand, we give him a print, he takes the pictures, he sends a negative to me, we have them developed at the lab, we blow them up, and I begin to look at them just as a kind of a, you know, trying to touch every base. | ||
| The caption says it's one of one. | ||
| Very important. | ||
| Lunar Orbiter 3, picture, image, 84, M, one of one. | ||
| It says the date when it was taken, which is February of 67, the date when it was read out of the spacecraft, you have to understand That this was actual film art that was loaded into an unmanned satellite by Kodak, sent to the moon, photographs taken with a high-resolution and medium-resolution camera, two lenses, two different cameras on the same film. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The film was then developed in the spacecraft. | ||
| All right? | ||
| Physically developed in zero gravity in this very... I mean, for 67, this was pretty sophisticated. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Then it was read out. | ||
| It was dried with thermal dryers. | ||
| They snipped it apart. | ||
| They then scanned it with a pre-laser light source. | ||
| This was not even laser scanning. | ||
| This was, you know, a six and a half micron mirror beam that was scanned. | ||
| It was then converted into digital information, sent back to Earth, reconstructed with television equipment on the ground at the Goddard Space Flight Center, photographed off the TV screen, Those photographs turned into little 35 millimeter negatives. | ||
| The negatives assembled by hand into master 20 by 24 inch negatives. | ||
| Those copied, those turned into prints, those made into negatives that were used to make the copies we eventually got. | ||
| Quite a bit of degradation there. | ||
| Oh yeah. | ||
| And the amount of detail we're seeing on what we're seeing is so incredible, you can only drool to imagine the first generation. | ||
| There were several different places that Yes. | ||
| put these mosaics together. One was the U.S. Army mapping service, part of the U.S. Army | ||
| Corps of Engineers. The other was Kodak. The other was the Boeing company up in Seattle. | ||
| The Boeing company, when Dr. McDaniel asked them very innocently at my request about photographs, | ||
| claimed they have none. | ||
| None? | ||
| None. A Boeing employee, when I did Laura's show the other night, he has called me and | ||
| he has offered to get me whatever I want out of the Boeing archives. | ||
| Now, why did Boeing lie to Dr. McDaniel? | ||
| Why did the Public Affairs Office absolutely lie? | ||
| Who else would have them, Richard? | ||
| What other avenues can you presume? | ||
| Well, alright, the National Space Science Data Center, NASA, has them. | ||
| Kodak should have a set. | ||
| The Smithsonian should have a set. | ||
| And Washington, alright? | ||
| There are archives at Brown University, which should have a set. | ||
| Have you been pursuing these other avenues? | ||
| Not really, because I didn't want to alert the guys that we're looking. | ||
| We had to be very judicious. | ||
| But let me go back to Hawaii, because Hawaii has a set. | ||
| So Joe photographs this set, and it says one of one, gives the dates when it was read out. | ||
| You have to understand that the fact that this is real film we're talking about. | ||
| Right. | ||
| This is not an electronic Uh, image, this is actual film scanned in the spacecraft. | ||
| When the spacecraft crashed on the moon, eventually, because of lunar perturbations, the film and the spacecraft were destroyed. | ||
| That film is somewhere lying in a crater on the moon. | ||
| But the electronic version of the film is back on Earth. | ||
| Before Kodak sent the film and the spacecraft, it pre-exposed a pattern of little crosses, registration marks. | ||
| Which are used to correct out any geometric irregularities. | ||
| This is where things get really interesting. | ||
| On the photo we've been getting from Washington, the Shard, the mile and a half tower cut off at the knees like the World Trade Tower lopped off in a nuclear war. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Has one of these little registration marks right above it, sitting in the dark lunar sky. | ||
| To the left of this glass cubicle tower complex, located a few miles to the south. | ||
| When I examine the photograph that Joe Gill sent me from the one in Hawaii, the little registration mark has moved to the south of the tower, seven miles to the south on the image. | ||
|
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Good Lord, how can that... And that is impossible. | |
| That can't happen. | ||
| When you expose the image in the spacecraft, it was exposed indelibly relative to those registration marks. | ||
| They can't move! | ||
| Now, here's where things get really weird. | ||
| On 84M, there is a splotch of water droplets arching like a kind of a fake rainbow halfway down the picture. | ||
| What? | ||
| Down the framelits. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Because when they pulled the film apart in zero gravity, when the mechanical system did it, water tends not to flow in zero gravity. | ||
| Oh, I see, I see, I see. | ||
| all right? Sure. You can identify this frame in the dark, upside down, by this | ||
|
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Sure. | |
| splotch of droplets left on the on the negative. The frame in Hawaii has this | ||
| splotch in exactly the same place, but when you examine the image, the little | ||
| registration marks are not in the same place relative to the structures we | ||
| found on the surface. Utterly impossible. Impossible. | ||
| Unless someone put together the mosaic of framelits and they made a mistake and they | ||
| put together part of another frame where the registration marks would have moved | ||
| because it would have been a few moments between the first picture and the | ||
| second picture and parallax and triangulation would have moved the objects | ||
| relative to the frame and the lunar surface. | ||
| Absolute evidence of tampering. | ||
| Tampering. | ||
| Confirmation that this tower and the shard exist on two pictures, taken by the Lunar Orbiter Series. | ||
| Then I went back to a book I've got, which is impossible to get. | ||
| NASA publishes gorgeous, or they used to, gorgeous catalogs of everything it was doing. | ||
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Sure. | |
| And freely gave them out. | ||
| I mean, I've got a book that weighs 25 pounds, is about two feet by one foot, alright? | ||
| Enormous scale. | ||
| You know, will give you a hernia carrying it around. | ||
| It's everything you ever wanted to know about the Lunar Orbiter Missions. | ||
| It's got stunning photo after photo after photo after photo after photo inside. | ||
| Early, early PR investments. | ||
| Early, 1967 this came out. | ||
| Blue cover, gold embossed. | ||
| I mean, the first cabin, you got it from the U.S. | ||
| Government Printing Office. | ||
| You paid all of, get this, 19 bucks for this priceless, priceless document. | ||
| One of our Mars mission members tried to get a copy, because he's an amateur astronomer, of this same catalog in the last, uh, half year. | ||
| What he got, they charged him $85 for, and guess what, Art? | ||
| What? | ||
| It was a black and white Xerox. | ||
| Oh, my. | ||
| They claimed that the original was no longer available. | ||
| Now, why is that? | ||
| You mean we've forgotten how to print catalogs? | ||
| Very odd. | ||
| So when we went to the original, that's when I found these registration marks cannot be moved and the whole mechanism of the photo transport and embossing and all that. | ||
| So it said in that little documentation that came with this huge, huge catalog of photographs, which are 400 dot per inch, you know, halftone screening. | ||
| It said that the spacecraft could be commanded to take photos in a sequence of four, eight or 16 images in rapid fire sequence. | ||
| So you would never have one of one? | ||
| Well, you could have 1 of 1. | ||
| But if you have more than 1 of 1, you've got 4 or 8 or 16. | ||
| So somewhere out there, my bet is there are 15, no, 14 other images we've got to find. | ||
| You see how NASA has lied to us? | ||
| And we've got absolute proof that this is not 1 of 1. | ||
| Very good, Richard. | ||
| Back to the phones. | ||
| Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello, where are you calling from, please? | ||
| Hello there. | ||
| No, you're not. | ||
| First time caller line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
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Yeah, this is Matt from Portland. | |
| Portland, yes. | ||
|
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Yeah, thanks Richard for all the work you're doing. | |
| Thank you. | ||
| What I wanted to know is about the space probe Clementine, how it got mysteriously lost, and that asteroid it's supposed to photograph in the solar system. | ||
| August, I believe it is. | ||
| Geographos, right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| All right, that is a wonderful question. | ||
| I meant to ask it myself. | ||
| What's going on? | ||
| What happened to Clementine? | ||
| Well, gentlemen, with all due respect, I think you're asking the wrong question. | ||
| The real question is, why Clementine? | ||
| Why did the Pentagon, the Ballistic Missile Defense Organization, the folks that brought you SDI, that are trying to protect us from the onslaught of Russian missiles, nuclear warheads? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Why did they suddenly get a bee in their bonnet and decide to go to the moon? | ||
| And photograph the hell out of the moon in only a year and a half. | ||
| It is a good question. | ||
| Well, the answer is, they're looking at what we found. | ||
| Look, in Washington, think of Washington as a medieval kingdom, where you have a bunch of barons and fiefdoms, and to sit at Arthur's round table, you know, you've got to have power. | ||
| To have power, you have to have knowledge. | ||
| Various parts of the government are not cooperating. | ||
| They are at war with each other. | ||
| You know, in this barony, fiefdom model. | ||
| So let's say that, you know, BMDO, the Pentagon, suddenly realizes one day that it's been snookered by NASA all these years. | ||
| But it can't get access to the real NASA photograph. | ||
| So what does it do? | ||
| Goes up itself. | ||
| It goes up itself. | ||
| And it shoots the hell out of the moon. | ||
| One and a half A million stunning CCD images of the moon art. | ||
| Now, here's something interesting. | ||
| When I asked the chief scientist, who's a friend of mine, from NASA, who was supposed to kind of orchestrate the science for the mission, I said to him very innocently, because I knew the answer before I asked, I said, Gene, why aren't you going lower than 400 miles? | ||
| Remember, the lunar orbiters were put into orbit down to 30 miles, right down on the deck. | ||
| So, the astronauts orbited 70 miles. | ||
| Every mile, presumably, gives you a great enhancement. | ||
| Oh, absolutely! | ||
| Well, I mean, it's directly proportional. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| You know. | ||
| So, 400 miles, even with current state-of-the-art, seem to be a little standoffish, you know, to get good data. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You know what he told me? | ||
| Orbital instabilities. | ||
| Orbital instabilities? | ||
| Yeah, which is crap. | ||
| Pardon my French. | ||
| It's a nonsense answer. | ||
| All right, because the lunar orbiters experienced orbital instabilities, meaning that the orbit changes a little bit because of the uneven mass concentration in the moon. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| But since they were monitoring microsecond to microsecond, you could correct that out by thruster control, so there'd be no danger you would crash. | ||
| What about the continuing mission? | ||
| Would that perhaps bear out? | ||
| That's a very good question, and I did look at that, but it, you know, that additional 300 miles would buy you so much more, and it wouldn't really damage you. | ||
| Because remember, the moon is 2,000 miles across. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The gravity goes as 1 over r squared. | ||
| So if you're 200 miles, 300 miles closer, in a 1,080 mile radius, it's about, what, a tenth of a percent? | ||
| In other words, it doesn't really eat into your fuel budget. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| But it gets you an awful lot of increased resolution. | ||
| But I know why they stayed up about 400 miles now. | ||
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Why? | |
| Because some of this stuff sticks up above 70 miles and they would get whacked. | ||
| It is a prayer art that we didn't kill the astronauts. | ||
| I will show you, when you see the video, you will see something sailing by outside the window we call the castle that is big enough and close enough to see the pigeons on it. | ||
| Good Lord. | ||
| So they were actually in danger of hitting? | ||
| They were in danger. | ||
| And the astronauts, I've got the verbal debriefings where they were looking at things before sunrise, | ||
| and they saw the glints off the structure and they obviously didn't recognize what they were seeing. | ||
| They took time-lapse photographs for coronal studies, where we can see bits of debris above the spacecraft | ||
| altitude, because this thing had towers. | ||
| When it was new, this was a stunning, wondrous tour de force in architecture. | ||
| It was a mega-engineering of a scale that is almost mind-boggling to begin to comprehend. | ||
| And what we're seeing is a pale shadow, an ancient, ancient shadow, | ||
| down through unimaginable millennia, millions, hundreds of millions of years. | ||
| Well, I'd call this... ...out of erosion we're seeing. | ||
| I'd call this a mega cover-up, is what I'd call it. | ||
| It is! | ||
| It is nothing less than a mega cover-up. | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| But it does not have to be all of NASA. | ||
| In fact, it can be very few people in NASA, because if you control the photographic flow... Sure. | ||
| ...and you control the access by producing dumb catalogs of black pictures, That no one on their right mind would ever order except us. | ||
| All right? | ||
| And if you control who gets back, haven't you kind of wondered why we never went back to the moon? | ||
| I've wondered about that all the time. | ||
| And why the first mission back in 23 years was an unmanned Pentagon mission that photographed the hell out of the place and then promptly dropped dead? | ||
| Well, oh, it is dead now? | ||
| Well, to all intents and purposes, let me, this is where things get really cute. | ||
| The ostensible reason That John Noble Wilford, my esteemed colleague at the New York Times, apparently bought Hook, Line, and Sinker. | ||
| You know, I am very depressed with the state of reporting in the United States of America. | ||
| We either have a very dumb class of reporters, or we have people who simply don't want to really know what's going on because, God, it might infect their job. | ||
| They might have to get another job. | ||
| Some of it's just lazy, Richard. | ||
| It must be incredible laziness, because John Wilford, who should know better, Publish the story, come out of the Pentagon, that Clementine's purpose was to test SDI technology. | ||
| Now, SDI, Space Defense Initiative, finding one bullet with another and knocking it down at intercept speeds of 30,000 miles per hour. | ||
| So how do you test sensors that are supposed to find one little tiny sliver of technology in the dark, speeding down with a nuclear warhead with another one? | ||
| Obviously, you go to a big silvery target like the moon and park in orbit and take pictures. | ||
| Makes sense to me. | ||
| Right. | ||
| It's like training Navy sharpshooters or SEALs to assassinate Saddam Hussein by sending them to, you know, Mother Teresa. | ||
| Doesn't make any sense, right? | ||
| It's just absolutely kooky. | ||
| The part of the mission that quasi made sense was the asteroid rendezvous. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| So guess what BMDO did the morning that Clementine on May 3rd was designed to leave lunar orbit? | ||
| It announced it was closing down operations. | ||
| It was killing the program. | ||
| It was pulling the plug financially. | ||
| New York Times, boys and girls, I've got the clippings. | ||
| They're on the video. | ||
| You'll see them. | ||
| And it was only two senators and a congressman who hit the warpath when they heard this that saved the program. | ||
| Because by Wednesday morning, they had forced General O'Neill, head of BMDO, to recant and somehow find $3.2 million to keep Clementine going To the Geographos Rendezvous in August. | ||
| On Saturday. | ||
| A bad day for a spacecraft in space, by the way. | ||
| Remember, it was Saturday. | ||
| It is. | ||
| Saturdays are bad. | ||
| Yes, I recall. | ||
| We lost Mars River on a Saturday. | ||
| Guys, do not take a mission on a spacecraft on a Saturday. | ||
| Just a gentle word of warning, particularly if it's run by the Pentagon or NASA. | ||
| Okay, what happened Saturday? | ||
| Saturday, we were told that the spacecraft computer on Clementine inadvertently opened all the fuel valves and ran the fuel to depletion. | ||
| Clementine has no more gas. | ||
| It can't go anywhere. | ||
| It's spinning hopelessly at 80 RPM, orbiting forever between Earth and Moon. | ||
| Oh, right. | ||
| And isn't that, as Church Lady would say, precious? | ||
| Yeah, isn't that precious? | ||
| Wasn't Clementine supposed to photograph Shoemaker Levy 9 or what's left? | ||
| No, not really. | ||
| I mean, they might have gotten some flashes or something on the sensors, but, you know, we're talking millions of miles. | ||
| So there'd be no real imaging, it would just be data. | ||
| So we don't really have anything that'll look at that? | ||
| Well, yes we do. | ||
| We have Voyager and we have Galileo. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| And then we have Hubble and we have all the... I mean, there's a huge array of stuff. | ||
| But this is what's really important. | ||
| Why did... when they couldn't kill it financially, don't you think it's cute that a couple days later they have a computer problem and it dies and disappears? | ||
| Why would you think they would They would want to do that. | ||
| In other words, they were leaving the moon. | ||
| They were going on to investigate something that presumably doesn't have these structures on it. | ||
| Why would they do it? | ||
| Maybe they weren't going to go to Geographos after all. | ||
| Maybe they wanted to disappear from public and press view so they can go and look at something interesting. | ||
| Like? | ||
| Well, there is a rumor. | ||
| There was a rumor. | ||
| Some of our team saw and heard a West Coast report. | ||
| Quickly. | ||
| On NBC by Tom Brokaw. | ||
| That the next destination after the moon for Clementine was Cydonia on Mars. | ||
| Mars. | ||
| Richard, hold on. | ||
| We'll be right back. | ||
|
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This is Coast to Coast AM. | |
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| We'll be right back. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Now, back to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Richard, you're back on the air. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| All right. | ||
| You had some questions, I think, that were faxed in that were kind of intriguing. | ||
| Well, yes. | ||
| Let me talk about the material one. | ||
| How do we know it's titanium? | ||
| Well, first of all, the glass. | ||
| The question was the concept of windows in a structure that's made of glass. | ||
| Well, keep in mind the biosphere. | ||
| When you look at the biosphere, what do you see from a distance? | ||
| Glass. | ||
| Glass on a metal frame, which is a hexagonal triangular truss. | ||
| That's true. | ||
| And they're having a problem keeping the windows sealed, because the objective of Biosphere was to seal the inside from the outside. | ||
| Correct. | ||
| And they had a caulking problem, and they've had leakage and whatever. | ||
| But those are just mechanical things. | ||
| I mean, with a little better technology, Biosphere 2 will work as advertised. | ||
| What we're seeing is something on a scale that's hundreds of times bigger. | ||
| And we have a dark rebar, a dark frame material, which shows up as a regular lattice gridwork. | ||
| Huh. | ||
| A 3D truss where you can see from different angles. | ||
| I mean, it's blown the geologist away. | ||
| It just is impossible. | ||
| And on this, you see little fragments of glass still clinging. | ||
| Oh, brother. | ||
| And as the spacecraft changes angle, you get specular reflection. | ||
| Kind of like a window that had a rock thrown through it. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| When I flew into Albuquerque the other day at noon, I wish I had a camera because you fly over a couple of parking lots there by Kirtland. | ||
| And the car windshields, of course, are all oriented at relatively the same angle. | ||
| So you get these specular reflections off the glass, changing with angle. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And, you know, on television, if you see helicopter shots of L.A. | ||
| on L.A. | ||
| Law or whatever, you'll see these reflections. | ||
| That's what we're seeing in the photographs. | ||
| And we can time them and do the geometry, and we can connect them to sequences. | ||
| That's why you need to get the whole sequence on Apollo 10. | ||
| From 4809 through 4822, scan them, put them in the computer, make a quick time movie if you have a Mac, and you'll see stunning specular reflections popping up in an area in the back of one of the complexes that looks like Los Angeles seen from the air. | ||
| What was the time sequence between those pictures? | ||
| We don't have a record, we don't have a log of how, they were not taken at a regular interval, alright? | ||
| Alright. | ||
| But we know the distance. | ||
| And we know the orbit altitude, and we know then, because of Kepler's Third Law, the orbit velocity. | ||
| We're talking a few minutes. | ||
| All right. | ||
| And how do you conclude these other materials may have been used in this titanium or whatever? | ||
|
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Ah. | |
| Lunar surface samples returned by the astronauts. | ||
| Remember, we have actual ground truth. | ||
| And since you have meteor bombardment, and meteor bombardment tends to toss things out in all directions, some, since the, since what we're seeing is so extensive in Sinus Medi, Some of the meteors had to have tossed things into tranquility. | ||
| Even if tranquility is what it has been claimed to be, a mare surface, a natural lava surface, some of the samples, I think because of the weird chemistry, are samples of the artificial stuff. | ||
| Remember the first Lunar Science Conference when the geologists were asked to quantify ...characterized the moon and its formation process as derived from analysis of the samples. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And they got the idea that the moon had to have been covered with a very high temperature refractory material at several thousand degrees, floating on top, simmering for a billion years or something? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| What does that really describe? | ||
| The structure you're talking about? | ||
| Exactly! | ||
| Refined materials Put together in a blast furnace and smelted with high technology and temperature and plasma torches and all that. | ||
| Yeah, I mean this is what's going to be so mind-boggling and rather embarrassing for some of these geologists because they've been snookered. | ||
| They have been model-driven. | ||
| I've got papers where now, and I'm fortunate that we have the papers because at least I know they're honest. | ||
| They see things, they're writing about them, it's obvious they're projecting a geological interpretation On what we now know is a geometric and artificial thing. | ||
| In other words, they just weren't looking at it the right way. | ||
| Well, if you're not expecting the unbelievable, will you recognize it when you see it? | ||
| See, a lot of science is driven by what you expect to see. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And the crucial thing for me, Art, is that it means that most of the system was honest. | ||
| That they were not lying, they were not faking, they were not deluding, they were basically doing science But they were doing science constrained with one arm tied behind them because other guys were not pulling them in on the data that would have allowed them to fill in the real picture. | ||
| No doubt reinforcing as they went, one patting the other on the back saying, why yes, that's it. | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| How long have you been working on all this? | ||
| A year and a half. | ||
| Can a laser be used to detect odd reflections off the surface? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| In fact, that was one of the things that we had planned to do. | ||
| If you get the right telescope and the right combination of wavelengths, oh, I've got to tell you this story. | ||
| Clementine data. | ||
| Clementine carried a laser in polar orbit, right? | ||
| 400 miles up. | ||
| The idea is to bounce laser beam directly off the ground beneath and time the echo up to the spacecraft and thereby derive an altimetry trace, a profile, around and around and around and around the moon. | ||
| In polar orbit, of course, in a month you map the entire moon. | ||
| Depending upon how many times you can pulse the laser per second. | ||
| Some of that data ought to be fascinating. | ||
| Oh, let me tell you what we've already got. | ||
| Remember, I now have NASA people leaking to me, calling me up, faxing me, sending me data because most of the system is honest, Art, and they are as mad and as upset that they've been snookered as the rest of us. | ||
| So that's how I've been getting some of these photographs and some of this information. | ||
| Photographic, photographic whistleblowers. | ||
| People are talking, yes. | ||
| Now this is one of the things. | ||
| I got leaked to me a set of view graphs from an official Clementine briefing at NASA shortly after the mission went into lunar orbit. | ||
| And one of the scientists involved is from Goddard. | ||
| His name is Dr. Smith. | ||
| He was the principal scientist from NASA in charge of the laser altimetry experiment. | ||
| Right. | ||
| That experiment was to use a telescope that was also used to take the highest resolution pictures, about 10 meter resolution, 30 feet resolution pictures from 400 miles altitude, all right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| It was boresighted, meaning it was co-aligned optically with the laser. | ||
| Poor Dr. Smith reports in this meeting, and I get the report, you know, like a few hours later, that unfortunately the telescope is fine, but he's got bizarre You mean, gigantic blips that he can't account for? | ||
| Translation? | ||
| Gigantic blips that he can't account for? | ||
| He's getting reflections off the glass! | ||
| Uh-huh. | ||
| And he didn't know it! | ||
| Oh, Richard. | ||
| And what they had to do was they had to computer process like crazy the data, massage it like | ||
| hell to get rid of all the extraneous reflections so he could get some kind of mean profile. | ||
| So there's stunning data which gives us 3D structure of the glass structures as the spacecraft | ||
| orbits overhead. | ||
| And Dr. Smith, because he's got one arm tied behind his back... Have you talked to him? | ||
|
unidentified
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Not yet. | |
| Not yet? | ||
| We will. | ||
| You're going to suggest this to him? | ||
| Of course, we already did. | ||
| I actually had a colleague of mine send a fax to his office suggesting during Clementine That there was some work on anomalous photometric properties that predicted curious scattering. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| Because I didn't want them to turn off the instrument and think it was not working. | ||
| So we now know that they continue to take data and there is that data in raw form and when it is properly... When I told this to one of our geologists, he was jumping up and down because it was a very good laser. | ||
| It had very small pulse width. | ||
| Meaning high resolution in time. | ||
| Of course. | ||
| And we should be able to get the vertical pane. | ||
| I understand. | ||
| Has he yet reacted to the facts? | ||
| No. | ||
| Nothing. | ||
| It went in and nothing came out. | ||
| Nothing like that these days. | ||
| Things go in, they never come out. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Phone lines, Richard. | ||
| Toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| Great show. | ||
| Cosmic Connector here. | ||
| Where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Portland, Oregon. | |
| KEX 1190. | ||
| All right. | ||
| What can we do for you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mr. Hoffman, you've been on Mr. Bell's show several times. | |
| I wish you would elaborate on the Manor Block Grotto Lift. | ||
| And I would like to get a hold of you for a guest of mine on a TV show of the MCTV cable network up here, which is not in conjunction with or against Art Bell up here. | ||
| It's a private television program, mister. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Okay, well, why don't you send me a fax on that and we'll see what we can work out, if we can work out something. | ||
| I didn't understand the first part of the question. | ||
| Oh, he just left the line. | ||
| I didn't understand it either. | ||
| Is that about those glyphs again? | ||
| I think that's what he said, yes. | ||
| I was about to say that's what... I don't know anything about glyphs. | ||
| There were, back during the Lunar Orbiter program, there was a brief flap about some spires discovered on a Lunar Orbiter 2 photograph. | ||
| That was published by Tom O'Toole on the front page of the Washington Post, and it all went away. | ||
| But they were miniscule. | ||
| They were, you know, 7,500 feet high compared to what we've got. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Listen, Richard, there's a lot of people, and there may be a lot of people in the press, other press, that will want to get a hold of you. | ||
| They'll smell a good story here. | ||
| Let me give you our fax number. | ||
| Fax number, yes. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| 201-271-1703. | ||
| Now, you've got a lot of fax paper on that, do you, Richard? | ||
| We will make sure. | ||
| Well, I'd check it early in the morning. | ||
| It'll already be full. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Fax number for Richard Hoagland, area code 201-271-1703. | ||
| On the wild card line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Art. | |
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mark from Collinsville, Illinois, listening to KSC. | |
| Yes, hi, Mark. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mr. Hoagland, you mentioned that one structure, seven degrees north of the equator, on Uyghurt? | |
| Yes. | ||
| What about the structures on the Sea of Crisis in Mare Imbrium? | ||
| There are no structures in Mare Imbrium. | ||
| What I was referring there was Mare Imbrium appears to be the only true lava upwelling that exists on the moon. | ||
| The papers that I've been going through complain That even on close inspection, the signatures of lava lakes that should be on the floors of the other maria are missing. | ||
| They're not there. | ||
| And these authors are very perplexed and puzzled and kind of bewildered why the only clear flows of lava they can find are in an imbrium and they are coming up from an upwelling vent in 19.5. | ||
| So I was using that as a affirmation that our physics, our geophysics of how Planetary energy upwells at these specific latitudes, in fact, is working on the Moon, which we found by accident in going through these papers. | ||
| The Mare Crisium Dome, which appears to be in much better shape than the Sinus Medi Dome, if I can use those terms, has a 20 mile high tower, which we found on an Apollo 16 frame. | ||
| And we don't have stereo of it yet, but we know the stereo has to exist because This was in an area heavily photographed by the Apollo Pan cameras and the mapping cameras and the handheld Hasselblads. | ||
| And it's only a matter of time until we get the companion frames to do the 3D. | ||
|
unidentified
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I got one more question. | |
| Go ahead. | ||
| The federal people did a sting operation against NASA not too long ago. | ||
| Is that anything to do with leaking information? | ||
| Oh, that's an interesting question. | ||
| He's right. | ||
| There was a sting. | ||
| This was in Houston. | ||
| It had to do with crank biomedical stuff being taken up on the shuttle with kickbacks and all that. | ||
| I don't think it's related. | ||
| This is, you know, these archives are 30 years old. | ||
| They've existed in various parts of the country for a long time. | ||
| The interpretation is in Washington. | ||
| It's not at the NASA field centers. | ||
| NASA headquarters is at the root of this problem. | ||
| If we're going to clean house, we've got to start at the top. | ||
| Ask Golden to open the files. | ||
| If he doesn't, get rid of him and get somebody in there that will live in adherence to the Charter. | ||
| Hey, Richard, should there be a sting operation? | ||
| Well, it certainly would be interesting to see what you could find if you don't go in the front door. | ||
| I mean, we have tried to be somewhat circumspect in asking through other sources for negatives, and what I've been impressed with is how many different versions of the same negative we get. | ||
| Well, should somebody like 60 Minutes get some photographs, go sit down with Goldman in his office the way they always do, and sweat him with the photographs? | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| And we will do that ourselves eventually. | ||
| Remember, this is the beginning of the process. | ||
| We unveiled this after a year and a half at Ohio State. | ||
| My colleagues, some of them have not yet actually seen the data. | ||
| It's that brand new. | ||
| But I wanted to come out on record with it so that if the archives are tampered with, there will be a way to trace it. | ||
| We have Visa card numbers, order numbers, lab numbers. | ||
| We have documented everything we got from NASA. | ||
| What I find interesting is that our lab people here in New York We're in Houston and tried to have a meeting with the head of the photographic lab to see the original negatives. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And spent several days fruitlessly and has spent several weeks now playing telephone tag, unable to make contact with the head of the lab in Houston. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Which is absolutely absurd! | ||
| Richard, your scientific neck is out a mile on this one, so I presume that you've been very careful. | ||
| I feel supremely confident. | ||
| You must say, did you think of this really hard before you said, we're going to all put it on the line here? | ||
| Of course I did. | ||
| The data is there and it's so robust, and there's so much more we haven't had a chance to look at. | ||
| I am strongly suspecting that the scale and scope of what is there is going to be so mind-boggling That if NASA had a wholesale book burning tomorrow, they couldn't get rid of all the evidence. | ||
| All right, try this, Richard. | ||
| Let's say that you were on the outside, looking at the presentation that you're making, trying to dig holes in it, and shoot holes in it. | ||
| Have you turned around and tried to look at it from that... Of course. | ||
| I mean, the obvious thing is that we're looking at aberrations on the photographs. | ||
| We're looking at single versions. | ||
| And you can go through systematically, and when you know, when you realize, as I lay out, we're looking at three different technologies. | ||
| Their actual film and lunar orbiters scanned and sent home by electronic means. | ||
| Lunar surface photography of this stuff from the Surveyor television cameras, which were Vidicon, on the surface. | ||
| And then lunar orbital photography from the astronauts, from the command module and the lunar module, with handheld Hasselblads. | ||
| You have three different technologies, five different geometries... Alright, I think that blows that right out of the water. | ||
| I mean, we have really covered ourselves carefully And we're not speculating beyond the data. | ||
| I mean, I can sit here for the next hour and get into who, what, how, why, and when, and I will not do that because I want us to go back to the moon and find out who, why, how, what, and when. | ||
| All right. | ||
| On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Morning, Art. | |
| This is Greg KVI. | ||
| In Seattle? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| Tacoma, actually. | ||
| Tacoma, all right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Richard, what an honor to speak to you. | |
| Thank you. | ||
|
unidentified
|
In your book, you laid out Three possibilities of the origin of the monuments of Mars, and it seems now that you're kind of changing your mind on that, that you're opening yourself up to the possibility that maybe there was a technical civilization here before. | |
| On Mars, you mean? | ||
|
unidentified
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No, here. | |
| Well, no, I'm not changing. | ||
| We're looking at a different world. | ||
| We're looking at a different class of structures. | ||
| We're looking at a different time frame. | ||
| You know, when you look at the solar system, and again, I want to go back to Brookings, What really impresses me is how perceptive the Brookings document in hindsight was. | ||
| How perceptive Carl Sagan was. | ||
| He's changed, you know, he's gotten dumber in recent years, but he used to be a pretty bright guy. | ||
| He said back in 1962 in a paper that relativistic space flight, visitors from some other solar system colonizing, staking out territory, doing incredible things in the solar system, Might be anticipated and discovered through NASA's activities. | ||
| It's amazing how Carl has kind of gotten a little bit slower since he wrote that paper. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I agree. | |
| But if you, if you take, um, what, uh, uh, the, I'm sorry, what was that guest you had on Dreamland, RW? | ||
| RW Whitfield. | ||
|
unidentified
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Yes. | |
| If you take, um, the theory that he had, which I really don't want to agree with because it just seems so astounding anyway, but if you took, took that theory and you applied it to the moon, let's say, That at one time or throughout many times, according to him, that maybe man did achieve some sort of technological advancement that would have put him on the moon where he could have built those structures. | ||
| Let me stop you there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
All right. | |
| All right. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Let me. | ||
| Don't go away. | ||
| Oh, he's gone. | ||
| Did you lose him? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| Wait a minute. | ||
| No, he's still there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm here. | |
| All right, good. | ||
| The provisional dating. | ||
| Everybody hold on to your feet. | ||
| Better sit down for this one. | ||
| The provisional dating. | ||
| Of the structures we're seeing on the moon. | ||
| Again, if the meteor fluxes as measured by the last 30 years of spaceflight are nearly correct. | ||
| Remember the long duration exposure facility that NASA almost lost in Earth orbit? | ||
| Where they put it up and then they had the Challenger disaster. | ||
| They couldn't go back up and retrieve it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, yes, yes. | |
| And it almost entered? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| This was advice about the size of a boxcar studded with different kinds of materials. | ||
| called a long-duration exposure facility because it was designed to expose materials to the space environment, including micrometeorites. | ||
| It stayed up much longer than it was intended, so we got a much better database for how meteorites whack the hell out of, you know, structural materials above the atmosphere. | ||
| Using that data and applying it to the amount of degradation we're seeing in the lunar materials, the lunar structures, If these things are not a half a billion years old, I'll eat my hat. | ||
| Now, why do I pick that time? | ||
| Now, right away, that means they're not human. | ||
| They're so far before... The only thing existing on Earth at a half a billion years, guys, was blue-green algae. | ||
| Of the present generation of humans. | ||
| Well, but let's keep that for a moment on the shelf. | ||
| I'm getting at here, and I didn't pick the half-billion-year Less than a minute, Richard. | ||
| If the erosional curves are real and if this stuff is that awesomely achingly incredibly | ||
| old, that means these guys were there when life on Earth was not. | ||
| Now look at the coincidence, because that half-billion year time frame is suddenly when | ||
| life on Earth took a dramatic and startling and stunning upturn. | ||
| Less than a minute, Richard. | ||
| Do you begin to get my drift? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| I'm possibly looking at a race of cosmic engineers who in fact created the context for the eventual | ||
| evolution of life on this planet in this solar system. | ||
| In other words, I don't think we're looking at stuff from here at all, gentlemen. | ||
| It is so much older and more vast. | ||
| Richard, you've been on here too long. | ||
| Now you have to stay. | ||
| One more hour, Richard. | ||
| One more hour. | ||
| All right? | ||
| What do I feel like? | ||
| I'm in a Rod Sterling movie? | ||
| Just say yes. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| We'll be back. | ||
| Good morning. | ||
| I've got Richard Hoagland. | ||
| He's been with us the whole way, and it looks like he'll make it this morning. | ||
| He's back on the East Coast, where it's already after 6 o'clock in the morning, so this guy has a real constitution. | ||
| That's what I think. | ||
| Anyway, we'll be back to him, and I've got a fax for him that's a devil's advocate sort of fax that I think It's from somebody who works for, no, is director of something called Horizon Technology up in the Seattle area. | ||
| So that's a coming, Richard. | ||
| A little bit of station keeping. | ||
| KOGO Radio just announced that beginning not this Sunday, but next, they will begin carrying Dreamland in its entirety. | ||
| That's San Diego, LA market beginning to carry Dreamland beginning a week from this coming Sunday. | ||
| Congratulations, everybody in Southern California. | ||
| You're going to really enjoy it. | ||
| One other thing. | ||
| There have been so many inquiries that I'm just going to go ahead and do it right now. | ||
| If you want a tape of this program, the one you're hearing right now, You can call 24 hours a day and order it, and I can understand why you would want it. | ||
| There has been so much detail in this program that it is a document of its own. | ||
| The tape ordering number is area code 503-664-7966. | ||
| 503-664-7966. | ||
| Area code 503-664-7966. | ||
| Copies of this program. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Now... Richard? | |
| Mm-hmm? | ||
| I wanna read this, um, to you, and then I'd like you to try and answer it, alright? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| It's from Horizon Technology, Gary Hawkins, the director of Horizon, up in, uh, Seattle. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| I'd like to play the devil's advocate and state what many will quietly think, so that Richard can counter those silent critics. | ||
| I digitally altered a photo of a space shuttle liftoff so that the face of Christ could be seen blended into the photo. | ||
| It was good enough I could likely collect from the National Enquirer. | ||
| What can he say to the conspiratorialists who would say he's part of a scheme putting altered photos forward as real? | ||
| The natural question, why would anyone go to the time and trouble? | ||
| Several answers. | ||
| One, For the same reason there are over 300 books on the Kennedy assassination, money. | ||
| Two, for the Zephyr principle, which all governments know that the more falsehoods a people believe, the easier they are to manipulate. | ||
| And three, as a diversion from other government projects. | ||
| Please don't be mistaken, I'm a Hoagland fan. | ||
| Well, the obvious counter to that is go get the data and look at the photographs yourself. | ||
| And NASA gave out... See, the thing that's going to keep the system honest is NASA gave out so many free copies of the original that there's a lot of photos all over the world, not just the United States, but in Canada, in England, in France, in Germany, in Italy, and, you know, the Far East, the Near East, archives, museums, private, you know, collections. | ||
| We need to, with the internet and with CNN and with global telecommunications, find those | ||
| people who have original material, particularly if they have documented the source, and simply | ||
| compare the various generations of pictures. | ||
| I think that's one of the reasons why NASA has never, ever made a consistent argument | ||
| against the geometry involved in the monuments of Mars. | ||
| Remember, we discovered and measured our geometry on orthographically corrected pictures from | ||
| the Viking mission of Mars. | ||
| When we published that data at the NASA Lewis Research Center, when we laid it out in an | ||
| invited presentation for NASA Lewis, I expected at the very least that somebody at NASA would | ||
| make the measurements and claim they didn't work. | ||
| Instead, what they've done is the character assassination we've gotten used to, because, in hindsight, I now know that if someone in NASA were to attempt to replicate the data And it did work, they wouldn't dare publish it because it would go against the prevailing political wisdom. | ||
| And if they tried to alter the data to demonstrate, quote, it didn't work, they could always count on or be apprehensive of that someone somewhere in the world with an unaltered NASA Viking data set would come forth with a measurement that proved it did work, and then they would be caught in the cover-up. | ||
| Richard, do you think the government's on the internet? | ||
| Of course! | ||
| Are you serious? | ||
| No, not fully. | ||
| I was just trying to suggest that a lot of the traffic, and I've seen some of it on the internet, you just never know where it might be from, huh? | ||
| Well, the fact is that these photographs exist in so many places. | ||
| And again, I got onto this through private archives. | ||
| You know, Mr. Wonky was terribly helpful. | ||
| There are people who've been assiduously collecting NASA data from 20, 30 years. | ||
| Here's too much of it. | ||
| It's like my grandmother used to say, you can't stuff all the feathers back in the pillowcase. | ||
| We're going to be able to prove, by comparing old data with new data, up to and including the Clementine data, Which we must, of course, demand. | ||
| I mean, one and a half million images on how many CDs that would be stacked up halfway from here to the moon? | ||
| That data, by the way, is not covered by the Space Act. | ||
| There is nothing that mandates that that data will ever be turned over to the people. | ||
| The fact that it is all on CD, meaning we could see it tomorrow, and they're not planning to release it until December, indicates to me that somebody somewhere is very busy with a cray Removing from one data set any incriminating objects. | ||
| Because, look, if you look at the moon with low enough resolution, it will look like the moon should look. | ||
| It's only if you explore the details and if you understand lighting geometry and the refractive index of materials and you make comparisons that you find with current computer technology what we have found. | ||
| I think that the computer nerds of the world are going to come into their own, frankly, Art. | ||
| So do I. | ||
| This is now where democracy really comes to the fore. | ||
| I object to the term nerd. | ||
| Well, I don't because it's just a name, alright? | ||
| It means someone who has spent a lot of time getting to be an expert. | ||
| And I used to take it as a kind of a weird compliment. | ||
| Because when my friends were running around dissipating, I was looking at lunar data. | ||
| And now it's paying off. | ||
| Well, all right, Richard. | ||
| I don't like it. | ||
| I don't like nerd. | ||
| It's insulting, and it doesn't do justice to the work that's been done by the individual who has the knowledge that it's being scoffed at. | ||
| I don't like nerd. | ||
| Hello there on the wildcard line. | ||
| You're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi, Art. | |
| Hi, Richard. | ||
| This is Gary in Tacoma, listening on KVI. | ||
| Yes, Gary. | ||
|
unidentified
|
If you remember, I'm the guy who said he stumbled onto the unified field theory a while back. | |
| I've called your show a couple times. | ||
| Yes, I recall it. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, I'm so happy to hear about the structure, the tetrahedral structure and the equilateral triangles, because it's a key point in my theory. | |
| Well, one of the problems that we're going to have is now separating on the moon those things which are natural from those things that are not, dependent upon resolution, of course. | ||
| We have had the idea that every time you see a hole, it's a crater. | ||
| An impact crater. | ||
| What has not been recognized, and I will send you to any decent lunar map, notice, if you will, how many of the craters are hexagonal in form? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| The hexagon is the center of the cube, which is the key part to my theory. | ||
| Well, the cube, of course, is two interlocked tetrahedra. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah. | |
| And there's 27 lines on the general cubic surface, Hyperdimensional solution by Coxeter and others. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Right. | |
| Now, the thing I want to point out is that the reason I think the government wants to suppress this data immensely is the fact that if you have access to the unified field theory, you understand how systems work. | ||
| And if you apply that to sociology, you understand that the chaos in this country is artificially created so that the forms of order basically have all the power and can control what goes on. So it's a power thing. It's retaining | ||
| power to suppress this. | ||
| And I think it's in their best interest to try and keep it from the public so they don't | ||
| think about... But is it in ours? | ||
| What? Is it in our best interest? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, no, definitely. Okay. | |
| So that's why I'm so happy to hear about what all you've done. I know it must have taken | ||
| years to... | ||
| It has taken almost two years. | ||
| And the hardest part, you know what the hardest part has been, Art? | ||
| What? | ||
| Not telling anybody. | ||
| Can you imagine what I've been going through sitting at a computer screen staring at something that Arthur and other comrades of mine in the science and the science fiction fields would drool, would give their right arm to know exists. | ||
| Oh, yes. | ||
| And we have not been able to say anything because I have had to build the airtight case. | ||
| There are no loopholes. | ||
| I absolutely agree, Richard, that if you had come out and you weren't ready, it would have been disastrous, even to a future look into this. | ||
| This, by the way, is why all those kooky, idiotic books by Cooper and others about the insanity going on on the moon have all been disinformation. | ||
| We have been subjected to an absolutely brilliant disinformation campaign from the day that Armstrong stepped foot on the moon. | ||
| Which basically have the effect of marginalizing and segregating various parts of the population. | ||
| There's a whole cadre of books that basically, the bottom line is, we never went there. | ||
| It was all done in a hangar in Phoenix, right? | ||
| Well, obscuring reality with the fantastic, yes. | ||
| Then there's the whole cadre that claim, oh, there are alien bases on the moon, and they're in lockstep with the government, and they've got big, you know, huge vats with human body parts floating in them, and all this garbage, okay? | ||
| Then there's the group which claim that there's top-secret incredible super-science developed by the Trilateral Commission, and the brain drain is stealing all kinds of British scientists, you know, the Alternative 3 scenario. | ||
| Yeah, sure. | ||
| Each of these, I now believe, is absolute claptrap designed to keep the New York Times from ever looking at a lunar photograph and saying, what's that? | ||
| So the media's manipulated that easily? | ||
| Well, because they're lazy. | ||
| I know it's true. | ||
| I mean, I worked with them. | ||
| I was part of it, and I know they're awfully, awfully lazy. | ||
| All right. | ||
| On the wildcard line, it's Richard Hoagland you're on the air with. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Art. | |
| This is Kevin from Phoenix again. | ||
| Hi, Kevin. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi. | |
| Listen, I've got a bunch of notes here, and I was curious, Mr. Hoagland, good evening, or good morning. | ||
| I was wondering if you could tell me again the equilateral triangles in relationship to the clock again. | ||
| The relationship to the clock. | ||
| Yeah, you were saying that one triangle was... Alright, if you imagine a clock with midnight at the top... Right, right. | ||
| ...and Bob and all that, the Ockhurt Triangle is roughly, as I remember it, I'm not sitting here looking at it, but as I remember it, it's about straight up and down. | ||
| It's aligned relatively parallel to the lunar spin axis. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| So that the one point is on midnight and the other point, you know, the points are 120 degrees apart, right? | ||
| Okay. | ||
| And then the other triangle, which is formed by taking the bright highlight parts of the crater wall and connecting those, are upside down. | ||
| In other words, the point is at six o'clock, and the other two points are midway between. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay. | |
| And you'll see this on the video very clearly, because we did a false color where we substituted color for grayscale. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, that was what I thought you'd said, and I had drawn that out. | |
| Oddly enough, it appears to me similar to the Star of David. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| It's the flag of Israel. | ||
| So that's a two-dimensional tetrahedron, you know, interlocked tetrahedron. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So given everything that you've said so far, if you were to try to communicate with some species or something in the future, right, let's say, you would try and draw something that was for sure would not occur in nature. | |
| It should be a circle. | ||
| And any given straight line actually doesn't occur in nature as well as I know. | ||
| Or repetitive straight lines in any geometric pattern. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So to start, David, oddly enough, when you said that, I'm like, oh man. | |
| If you're not familiar with our Mars work, you have to see the UN briefing. | ||
| It's not just a geometry. | ||
| It's a specific geometry designed to communicate a specific level of information. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That cannot occur naturally. | |
| That's right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
So, having said that, the other thing that I have in my notes was that NASA seems to have a mission or a rationale of denial. | |
| There has to be a reason that they're not telling us this. | ||
| Well, at what point in the morning did you join us? | ||
|
unidentified
|
At about 12 o'clock local time, which is about an hour, I believe, after you started. | |
| Yeah, you missed my discussion of the Brookings Report. | ||
| What we have found is a NASA study that was commissioned Very early in NASA's history, a few months after it was formed in 58, which basically told the agency that if they discovered artifacts or evidence of ETs, they should hush them up because if they didn't, they might destroy civilization. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Exactly. | |
| So we have this ticking, logical time bomb at the heart of the edifice. | ||
| So we have a whole bunch of honest, visionary, dedicated people And deep inside, they're serving a structure which basically can't fulfill their dreams, because if it does, they've been told they will destroy that which they hold most dear. | ||
| All right, caller, one comment. | ||
| It's like Hal in 2001. | ||
| The metaphor. | ||
| Remember how Hal went crazy because he had two conflicting programs? | ||
| Yes, oh yes. | ||
| Caller, listen, we've got to go. | ||
| Any final comment? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No, sir, I don't have time. | |
| I'll talk to you tomorrow. | ||
| Right, take care. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
| Yes, I remember. | ||
| Hal, of course. | ||
| On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask. | |
| All right, where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Anchorage, Alaska, sir. | |
| All right. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Do you know of an FTP site where I can get some of these high-resolution images, or is there a way I can subscribe to some kind of fact file through the Internet? | |
| Because I got an email account and I was wondering if I could get to them. | ||
| All right, what's his best shot, Richard? | ||
| The best shot would be to, on the internet, find the government internet address for the National Space Science Data Center, which is at the Goddard Space Flight Center, right outside Washington, D.C. | ||
| That is the NASA-designated archive of all this data. | ||
| And that's where we've been getting our data from. | ||
| The other possibility is the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, Texas, which is another NASA center. | ||
| And then there are other archives scattered around. | ||
| There's one in Hawaii, the Planetary Data Science Center in Hawaii. | ||
| There's one at the University of, at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. | ||
| But I would start with the NSSDC, because I know they're on the Internet. | ||
| And the librarians there are very friendly and very helpful, and you just ask for the frame numbers, and you order them, and they'll be a few dollars per frame, and you want 8x10 meg. | ||
| Yeah, do you actually have an Internet address for them? | ||
| I don't have it in front of me, all right? | ||
| But it's so easy to find. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| On the wildcard line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello. | |
| Oh, and I'm delighted. | ||
| Good evening, Art. | ||
| Good evening, Mr. Hoagland. | ||
| Hi. | ||
| Where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
James, KSBN, Spokane, Washington. | |
| Wonderful. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I called you a while back about the artificiality of Phobos and Deimos. | |
| Yes. | ||
| Being placed in orbit around 1877, discovered by Asif Hall. | ||
| Yes, I recall. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I didn't go along with the explanation that I received from, I think his name was Mr. Flandreau. | |
| Oh, Tom Van Flandern? | ||
| That's right. | ||
| I had him on Dreamland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh-huh. | |
| Mr. Hoagland, it's been long observed there's been lights in craters. | ||
| Our tourists come to mine. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| You mean Irish darkens? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yeah, excuse me, Al. | |
| And that it's seen at certain times when the vibrations of the moon are just right, and you can look directly dead center into the crater. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| Well, William Herschel. | ||
| Who was a brilliant astronomer. | ||
| In fact, he was kind of the grandfather of big time astronomy in England. | ||
| He observed an eclipse of the moon with his big reflectors. | ||
| He built big reflectors. | ||
| And he described art seeing like bonfires glowing about 150 points of red, deep red light during a total eclipse of the moon. | ||
| Blew him away. | ||
| Couldn't understand what was causing, because he thought they were volcanoes. | ||
| Glass reflections. | ||
| Glass reflections. | ||
|
unidentified
|
That was my thought exactly. | |
| On the atmospheric refraction of the sun behind the Earth? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| A couple other thoughts. | ||
| Bill Gates would be, I think, an excellent source of funds for having six billion that he wants to give away for income. | ||
| Do you know Mr. Gates? | ||
|
unidentified
|
No. | |
| We need a private mission to the moon. | ||
| Tell you what, Richard, a lot of people listening do know Mr. Gates. | ||
| Well, if Mr. Gates wants to go down in history as opening the system and providing a renaissance for the American century, this is the way to do it. | ||
| The space program, gentlemen, was stillborn. | ||
| The Kennedy Vision never got off the launching pad. | ||
| It was choked off by a bunch of timid wimps. | ||
| And we've got to take it back. | ||
|
unidentified
|
There's two things that come to mind in listening to your... Very quickly, Colin. | |
| Uh, about, uh, one, in Genesis it talks about the Lord looked down and he saw that there was nothing impossible for man when he was watching them build the Tower of Babylon, that they were using very advanced materials like bituminous byproducts for the mortar and whatever else, and that by scrambling their tongues and whatever else like that, um, they had to disband their project. | ||
| And also another, uh... Alright, there won't, as a caller, there's not going to be time. | ||
| Uh, thank you, and Richard, I want you to hold on for a moment. | ||
| Uh, it'll be back now to Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Richard. | ||
| Mm-hmm. | ||
| You ready? | ||
| I guess. | ||
| You're holding up? | ||
| I think so. | ||
| Good. | ||
| On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hi. | ||
| Hello there. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hi there. | |
| How are you doing? | ||
| Okay, sir. | ||
| Where are you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Oh, this is Brian from Sacramento KSTE. | |
| Indeed. | ||
| Welcome to the show. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I just have a question for Richard there. | |
| Do you have a book out and if you do, what the name of it is and how can I get it? | ||
| Oh, good. | ||
| Hit your book, Richard. | ||
| Okay, well, this work, of course, began with our Mars investigation. | ||
| And the book is titled, The Monuments of Mars, a City on the Edge of Forever. | ||
| We revised it in 1992, including the material we presented at the United Nations. | ||
| We also have a series of video briefings of NASA. | ||
| Remember, we've been invited in the front door at NASA to show our Mars work now five times. | ||
| The NASA Lewis presentation is on tape. | ||
| The UN presentation is on tape. | ||
| And our lunar work is going to be Volume 3 of the video series and it will be available through the 800 number probably within about a month. | ||
| Go ahead and give that out again. | ||
| Okay, 1-800-424-0031. | ||
| Ask for Operator 5. | ||
| Okay, 1-800-424-0031. | ||
| Ask for operator 5. | ||
| 1-800-424-0031. | ||
| Operator 5. | ||
| Hmm, she'll be busy. | ||
| Operator 5's gonna be busy. | ||
| All right, on the wildcard line, you're on the air with... They will put you on a reservation list, because it's not there yet, guys. | ||
| Just be patient. | ||
| ...with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Art. | |
| Yes, where are you, sir? | ||
|
unidentified
|
This is Mike in San Diego. | |
| San Diego. | ||
| Okay, Mike. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, this is some pretty fascinating stuff tonight. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I wanted to ask Richard what his opinion on the What happened with the Phobos 2 satellite from Russia a few years ago? | |
| Funny you should ask. | ||
| Doesn't it strike everybody as kind of curious that as we get to the end of the process we get so dumb and stupid and can't do anything straight? | ||
| In the beginning when space was brand new and we didn't know what we were doing, We had problems, right? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Rockets went down instead of up. | ||
| Spacecraft went over instead of out. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And then we got very good and we had stunning data. | ||
| And we got late data live. | ||
| Even the Russians were able to give data. | ||
|
unidentified
|
And now, suddenly, nobody can do anything straight. | |
| It is. | ||
|
unidentified
|
It is. | |
| Now, obviously, I think that's not what's going on. | ||
| I think that there's major political tampering and there is desperation because it's almost like we're in quarantine. | ||
| It's almost as if The fix is in at so many levels, and no matter what nation. | ||
| Remember I said earlier this evening that I began to inquire about the Japanese car company, Honda, that sent a mission to the moon. | ||
| Right. | ||
| The day after I inquired, there appeared a thing in the Tokyo Times saying spacecraft crashed on moon. | ||
| No pictures. | ||
| What do you think what you're doing now will cause them? | ||
| Are they going to panic, Richard? | ||
| I hope so. | ||
| Because people who panic do dumb, stupid things. | ||
| It's time that we got rid of this crew and got some honest folks to run the show. | ||
| I am so appalled by the politics of this that I almost cannot describe my feelings. | ||
| I worked with Walter Cronkite. | ||
| I thought I knew the moon. | ||
| I lived vicariously with Armstrong and Aldrin and Cernan and Schmidt and, you know, all the guys that went and risked their lives. | ||
| And I now know, looking at this data, that we almost killed them because they were too close and they almost hit this stuff. | ||
| And then when they came home, we told them they couldn't say anything. | ||
| And I almost could guarantee that that's the reason that Buzz Aldrin went into a tailspin and became an alcoholic and had all his enormous problems. | ||
| I talked with a colleague of his the other day that shared an office with Aldrin at Science Applications, Inc. | ||
| for several years. | ||
| And he was telling me that they really got very close and very intimate and they, you know, went hiking and they did all kinds of things until one day he asked Aldrin innocently, did you guys see anything really interesting on the moon? | ||
| And he said that Aldrin got absolutely furious at him and never talked to him again. | ||
| And I said to my friend, don't you think that was a bit of an overreaction? | ||
| I'll say. | ||
| And he said, yes. | ||
| Are you aware, Art, that Buzz Aldrin is publishing with another writer a fictional book in 1995 about the discovery of alien artifacts on the moon? | ||
| No, my God. | ||
| Really? | ||
| Really? | ||
| Really. | ||
| He's in the middle of that now? | ||
| Yep. | ||
| Now, what do you suppose that's all about? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Something that just has to be released, maybe. | ||
| On his part. | ||
| Maybe. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Maybe. | |
| It's high time we simply got to the bottom of this. | ||
| You know, just for our general sanity. | ||
| I couldn't agree more. | ||
| How can we live in a schizophrenic culture where we're supposed to have a set of documents that says that government is a servant of the people and in fact we're their slaves? | ||
| Because he who has knowledge controls everything. | ||
| Well, it would only be the most important story of known human history and here you are perhaps with it. | ||
| I can't wait for you to see the data. | ||
| Yeah, it's staggering Richard. | ||
| And just in case anybody's wondering, we have diversified tapes. | ||
| We have multiple copies. | ||
| We have multiple copies of photographs and discs. | ||
| And negatives and prints, and there's no way this genie will be stuffed back in the bottle. | ||
| No black men running in and grabbing it. | ||
| Although I must say that I'm getting a lot of pen pals. | ||
| Not black men. | ||
| Let me stop that. | ||
| Richard, hold on. | ||
| Let me correct that. | ||
| Not black men, but men in black. | ||
| Men in black. | ||
| It's late, Art. | ||
| Yeah, it's late is right. | ||
| Hello on the wildcard line. | ||
| You're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello, Art. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello, Richard. | |
| This is Jason Bellingham. | ||
| Hi, Jason. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I have a question about Viking, the biological experiments when it went to Mars. | |
| Yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I was wondering if you could comment a little bit on that. | |
| I know they did a gas exchange experiment, a labeled release experiment, and a pyrolytic release experiment. | ||
| Wait, wait, wait. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You really expect me to follow this at 6 o'clock in the morning? | |
| I've been up all night. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Well, even more general than that, I know that they all showed They showed positive signals of life. | |
| Yes, they did. | ||
|
unidentified
|
But after that, they did more studies to show that, oh, they could all be explained by an organic chemical reaction. | |
| Yeah, funny chemistry was the... Although, if you actually look at the details of the AIM studies, they never really got the curves right. | ||
| NASA, again, claims that which it can't substantiate. | ||
| You know, it reminds me of that old joke. | ||
| Remember Chevy Chase said, you know, you used to come on Saturday Night Live and say, I'm Chevy Chase and you're not? | ||
| Well, NASA's attitude is, we're NASA and you're not. | ||
| And you're not, right. | ||
| And no one has had the temerity, the chutzpah, to basically ask them, what's really going on? | ||
| To show us the data. | ||
| When you look at those experiments, they did not duplicate Levin's curves, or Oriyama's curves, or some of the other real experiments from Mars. | ||
| They came close, but in this game, close is no cigar. | ||
| If we just came close, what do you think they would do to us? | ||
| You gotta have it. | ||
| And they didn't have it, but they lived on their reputation. | ||
| And until they killed seven human beings, alright, which was an agency disaster of the first magnitude, we basically let them have a free ride. | ||
| Now look what's happened. | ||
| We have telescopes to go into orbit with lenses again. | ||
| Oh, you want to hear the really extraordinary, you know, headline of the hour? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| One of our Mars members on my prodding wrote to the Space Telescope Institute. | ||
| And ask them if they could, very innocently, nothing given away, could you gentlemen please point out Hubble toward the moon and take pictures? | ||
| Right. | ||
| Guess what the response was officially on letterhead from the Space Telescope Institute from NASA? | ||
| What? | ||
| The moon's too close? | ||
| The moon is too bright. | ||
| You got it. | ||
| Now do you begin to question maybe is the mirror, was the mirror ever flawed, gentlemen? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Now, the fact is that some of this structure is so big it can be seen with Hubble, and since we now know where to look and you can look at Crisium and see it under correct lighting from Earth, one of the things I'm going to do in Los Angeles is to lay out for the amateur astronomer crowd in Southern California how you can see this stuff from the ground. | ||
| There was, back in the 1950s, the Astronomer Royal of England, H.P. | ||
| Wilkins, who wrote a series of books Who thought he saw a 60-mile-long lunar bridge. | ||
| Remember that, Art? | ||
| I vaguely do, yes. | ||
| And guess where he thought he saw it? | ||
| I'll bite. | ||
| Mare Crisium. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Aha. | |
| I think what he saw now was part of the structure of the dome collapsing and causing light reflections for a while, and then it collapsed to the surface, and of course it would go away. | ||
| I think we better give your fax number again, please, Richard. | ||
| A lot of people are going to want to get hold of you directly. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Area code 201-271-1703. | ||
| And if you want to come and see these pictures, be prepared to stay a while, because I'm going to do this in three hours in two segments on Sunday night. | ||
| What is it? | ||
| June... What is Sunday next? | ||
| monitor what you're going to help yelp yes | ||
| june twelfth at the alec l a x hyatt at the airport at the u f o expo west | ||
| i'm going to talk about clementine the mars data the moon mars connection | ||
| and show hundreds of photographs of structures the likes of which you would not believe | ||
| And this is the first time, isn't it, Richard, that you've ever done anything in front of a UFO group? | ||
| Well, not exactly, but it's certainly one of my very rare, rare, rare, you know, occasions that I do this. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Mm-hmm. | |
| All right. | ||
| Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
You're on the air? | |
| Hello. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Answer it! | |
| Going once. | ||
| Going twice. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Hello. | |
| Hello. | ||
| Is this Richard Hoagland? | ||
| It is. | ||
| I'd like to ask you about Have you checked out the book, Somebody Else is on the Moon? | ||
| Yes, George, uh, what's his name? | ||
| Leonard. | ||
| George Leonard. | ||
| Um, I, I unfortunately think, I think Mr. Leonard passed away. | ||
| Is he still with us? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh, I don't know, but I've got his picture with his photographs. | |
| I, I think that, frankly, looking at those pictures, there's nothing there. | ||
| I think that's part of the disinformation. | ||
| If it isn't, I think Mr. Leonard was incredibly naive, and I think what he interprets As what he calls them, X-beams and drillers and all that. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Is massive mega engineering that no one in their right mind would ever have proposed. | ||
| But in looking at his photographs, they're so bad in quality compared to what we've got. | ||
| And plus the technology. | ||
| All he had was basically prints from NASA headquarters or from Goddard. | ||
| And then he would photographically enlarge them. | ||
| We have applied the state of the art computer technology. | ||
| And frankly, I think that's our edge. | ||
| You know, when you can redo and redo and re-enhance until you can actually bring out subtleties. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| So you can see it. | ||
| You've got, you've got basically the edge that the government has had all these years. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes, Santa Maria, California. | |
| Yes, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Got a couple of questions. | |
| What, what do you think these structures are? | ||
| What were they used for? | ||
| What, what are these aliens like? | ||
| And do you think there might've been an atmosphere on the moon at one time? | ||
| Well, if we have domes, if we have sealed environments with multiple compartmentalization, no, there wasn't an atmosphere. | ||
| Whoever was doing this was trying to create an artificial environment, very much like the biosphere or Paolo Stellari's arcology. | ||
| What they were like, I haven't a clue. | ||
| Remember, we're looking at structures, not people. | ||
| We can go there and find out, which is absolutely what has to happen. | ||
| And in, what was the third question? | ||
| Oh, he's now gone. | ||
| Were they living structures? | ||
| Yeah, we're looking at living structures. | ||
| And you can get into some pretty amazing scenarios to even cover the extent of what we're seeing. | ||
| In other words, Richard, for example, you can look through one of the clear portions of, say, one of the windows and see the, what, the other side of the structure or something internally in the structure, or what? | ||
| Well, what you see are multi-level planes reflecting and scattering light at different angles. | ||
| You see 3D tetrahedral hexagonal geometry, where you have three different angles coming together. | ||
| You can see footings for the dome in one area on the southwestern edge of Uyghurt. | ||
| There's a crater called Kaladni, and just north of Kaladni, if you look at a lunar map, there's a wonderful lunar orbiter shot, which is 385M. | ||
| And then you want to get 3, 85, H, 1, H, 2, and H, 3. | ||
| These are frame numbers. | ||
| The M's are a medium shot. | ||
| The H's are nested inside the M's as high resolution, eight times better detail footprints laid out across the lunar surface because of the projected geometry of how the lunar orbiter was looking northeast. | ||
| Right. | ||
| Um, when you look closely at the H's of the 85 series, you will see some amazing structure. | ||
| You will see row upon row upon row upon row of double craters. | ||
| Our producer here in New York called them post holes. | ||
| I termed them stringers, and Ron Nix, one of our geologists, thought they were the structural footings of the north edge of the dome that basically held up all this massive mega-tonnage of glass and titanium and steel. | ||
| Whatever they are, they're incredibly regular, they're 3D, and they're anchored in a crystalline, semi-transparent matrix. | ||
| And you're looking through several layers. | ||
| And I'll show all this in Los Angeles, so, uh, you know, keep your head up. | ||
| Kind of a technical question. | ||
| Uh, Richard, stories have, um, a sort of lives of their own in the way that they build. | ||
| And what occurs is, at some point they reach a critical mass. | ||
| Then all of a sudden, the mass, the big networks, CNN, all the rest of them, will be there. | ||
| Then you have a sort of critical mass situation. | ||
| How long do you think it might take this story to build to that critical mass? | ||
| Well, I have my targeted list of media people, some of whom have very well known names, who have been quietly asking me to provide them with proof. | ||
| This has been since Mars Observer disappeared. | ||
| I now have assembled what I and my team believe is proof. | ||
| And our plan is to send them copies, rough cuts, in a few days of the Ohio State presentation and follow that up with personal briefings. | ||
| And if it doesn't ignite at that point, then they're deef, dumb, and blind, as my grandmother used to say. | ||
| But the fact is that every scientist who's seen this data so far is absolutely boggled. | ||
| And we live in a culture where media will be driven by the scientists. | ||
| If the scientists say, yes, it's got to be there, we've got to find out, there'll be excitement. | ||
| If scientists yawn, nothing will happen. | ||
| Because media doesn't understand how to do any investigation on its own. | ||
| But you're telling us they're not yawning? | ||
| They're not yawning. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| Just the contrary. | ||
| Any of the people that you addressed in Ohio willing to stand up and have a microphone or a camera? | ||
| Oh, yeah. | ||
| Absolutely. | ||
| I mean, you ought to have Bruce Cornett on from LeMont. | ||
| He's not with them now, but he was with LeMont already. | ||
| Jimmer Javick, who works for the EPA. | ||
| I don't think that his EPA job would preclude him from doing an interview with you. | ||
| But I would wait a few days until I can get more data into their hands. | ||
| It's unfair to ask a scientist to make comments when they've only seen a very few. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Well, this story is important enough. | ||
| So when you get them the data that you feel would convince them... They're going to get their video the same as you're going to get yours. | ||
| I understand. | ||
| But theirs is a scientific look. | ||
| Mine is just a look. | ||
| No, no. | ||
| Everybody's going to get the same thing. | ||
| What I'm saying, Richard, is... But I will follow up with them with hard copy and disk. | ||
| I understand. | ||
| Yes, please. | ||
| So now my question is, once you get somebody that you have supplied all the data you want to, get me their name. | ||
| I'll have them on. | ||
| Can do. | ||
| Does that seem like a logical follow-up? | ||
| No problemo. | ||
| All right. | ||
| On the toll-free line, you're on the air with Richard Hoagland. | ||
| Hello, where are you? | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm Robert, and I'm in Everett. | |
| Okay, Robert, go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, Richard, I'm in lowly country. | |
| I know. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Guess what? | |
| What? | ||
| Carl Sagan, he made me understand everything there is to know about space, right? | ||
| Okay, now listen. | ||
| Okay? | ||
| And, the last Cosmos Show, he said, freedom of information is important. | ||
| And, where's he now? | ||
| Alright, thank you. | ||
| I don't know where we were going with that. | ||
| Freedom of information is important, and where is he now? | ||
| Um, well, I guess, uh, referring to the Sagan turnaround, um, do you have any comments on Sagan? | ||
| And, I mean, what's happened to him? | ||
| Well, you know, let me try to defend Carl for a second here. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Carl and I were good friends. | ||
| I stayed at his house. | ||
| He went on some of the ship cruises I arranged in my multifarious career. | ||
| I organized seminars at sea on the QE2 and on the Staten Dom. | ||
| We've shared a number of things over the years together, and I certainly care as much as he does about the future of the space program and the future of this country. | ||
| Carl is willing to put himself on the line in terms of nuclear issues. | ||
| You know, whether you agree with someone or not, the fact that they're willing to be arrested, go to jail for their beliefs, I think is a very important data point. | ||
| If someone who believes that passionately in certain things is approached by a government structure that basically lays out that if this comes out in the wrong way, it will destroy civilization, Don't you think that good men and good women can be bought by a combination of that? | ||
| Because who wants to have on their shoulders a responsibility for, you know, radically altering or destroying... All right, all right, Richard. | ||
| Richard, let's say he went for it, and that's a good answer. | ||
| Now, what about you? | ||
| Suppose somebody came to you with the exact same appeal, and we've only got a minute. | ||
| Uh, they haven't. | ||
| I can tell you that categorically. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Uh, if they did, I'd ask them to provide me with real evidence. | ||
| And I mean real evidence, not just propaganda. | ||
| Because I do think there will be some substantial alteration, but my predisposition would be that those who are in danger of being destroyed are people who are in power to remain in power. | ||
| That knowledge is power, and here we have the most extraordinary possibility for empowerment and democratization of a physics and a technology that can not only save the planet, but can empower individuals That we cannot allow it to be suppressed any longer. | ||
| Richard, that has to be the final word. | ||
| You have been a pleasure. | ||
| You've been a trooper, too. | ||
| This is five hours. | ||
| That's a long interview, Richard. | ||
| But it was worth every minute of it. | ||
| Thank you, and I'll see you on Dreamland. | ||
| Okay. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Take care. | |
| Richard Hoagland. | ||
| All right, everybody. | ||
| That's it. | ||
| I'm sorry. | ||
| The clock actually rules us all. | ||
| If you want a tape of this program, you can call Area Code 503. | ||
| 6-6-4-7-9-6-6 5-0-3-6-6-4-7-9-6-6 24 hours a day. | ||
| If it's busy, I suggest you keep trying. | ||
| Thank you all. |
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