Art Bell

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Dec. 5, 1993 - Art Bell

01:48:00

Area 2000 with Art Bell - Ray Fowler and Linda Howe - UFO Investigations

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24:07

linda moulton howe

07:36

ray fowler

01:01:36

w c levengood

06:00

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Speaker	Time	Text
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Foundation.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences.
		To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		That's Angela Thompson at Area Code 702-456-1606.
		And now, Area 2000.
		Good evening, everybody.
		Welcome to Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
		And you all have the Bigelow Foundation to thank, as you know, for this program.
		And thank them, you should, when you get an opportunity to give them a call.
		We'll get their number on the air during the course of the show.
		All right, I think you're going to enjoy this evening's program.
		My guest is going to be Ray Fowler, but first we're going all the way to Michigan, where we're going to find Linda Howe.
		We'll have to find out what she's doing in the state of Michigan.
		Good evening, Linda.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What in the world are you doing in Michigan?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Tonight, I'm in Grass Lake, Michigan, near Ann Arbor.
		This weekend, a seminar was held in which abduction investigators Bud Hopkins and Professor David Jacobs of Temple University, both of whom have been on Area 2000 in the past few months, talked with mental health professionals and teachers about the UFO abduction syndrome.
		The seminars were provoked by the Robert Bigelow-sponsored Roper survey in 1991, which focused on unusual personal experiences.
		According to Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs, that survey indicated that perhaps one in 50, one in 5-0, Americans fall into the human abduction syndrome or aspects or characteristics which may indicate some kind of involvement with that syndrome.
		If so, education about the phenomenon is important, especially in the mental health profession.
		And this was the sixth in a series of such seminars that have been held around the country.
		And your guest tonight, Raymond Fowler, has been an important and longtime investigator in the abduction syndrome, doing the very important books about the Betty Andresen case.
		And I think this will be a very important program for listeners because the human abduction syndrome is perhaps one of the most puzzling subjects right now in this entire phenomenon.
		I've also visited the laboratory of Dr. W.C. Levengood, the biophysicist from the University of Michigan, who has worked so hard the past three years on analysis of plants from crop formations in the United States, Canada, Australia, and England.
		One of his most important findings is a change in plant cells that indicate an intense energy has been applied to these plants in a very short period of time, only seconds compared to the two or three hours that known hoaxers have taken to create man-made formations.
		I'd like to play an excerpt from a conversation that I recorded today with Dr. Levengood as he talked to me about evidence for rapid heating.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Over the three years I've been looking at these crop circles, there is a consistency to alterations.
		There is a consistency within alterations of the plant cell, which indicate a very rapid heating.
		Now, how do we know that that's a very rapid heating?
		We know that because there are tiny anatomical structures in the cell of the plant called cell wall pits.
		These cell wall pits, as we found through our research, this didn't come about suddenly, but we found that when the cell is heated, it expands like a balloon.
		And these cell wall pits expand on the surface, just like there would be a spot, you'd blow up a balloon, there would be a spot on it, and they expand.
		When the heating disappears, the cell goes back to its original state.
		But the cell wall has properties, it's called viscoelastic properties.
		This means that it's partially like a rubber band that's stretched, that doesn't quite return to its original shape.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		So when you would look under a microscope, let's say, at a plant that came out of one of the formations in England, you might find a change in just, if it may be more oval than a plant that wasn't affected by some energy that's yet unknown.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
		The pits are measured, and we make what's called a statistical analysis.
		We measure a lot of pits on the normal plants or what we call controls.
		And we measure a lot of pits from the crop formation.
		And you can say, well, how do you know the heating is rapid?
		Well, what we found is if the heating is continued, we can duplicate this in a microwave, but only if it's heated very briefly in a microwave.
		And this is like an ordinary microwave in your kitchen, where the heat is created internally in the plant cell very rapidly.
		If that heating continues beyond a few seconds, then the cell expands, but then it begins to collapse, and the total, the average size of these cell wall pits ends up smaller.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And it would cook the plant, wouldn't it?
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		And it would cook the plant.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Right.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Now that seems to me to be one of the fundamental points that the general public has not understood.
		Whatever's happening in the cross circle, it's some kind of an energy from a biophysical, biochemical point of view.
		But whatever it is is rapidly enough that it's not cooking the plant, but if these plants continue to grow.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
		Anything that's heated this fast and with this amount of energy would indeed, with time, cook the plants up.
		It would kill them.
		And we never find that, in fact, the plant goes right on Growing.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And one of the hope circles last year, the people who made it said it took them two hours to make one of the formations.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's right.
		You could never buy that kind of energy.
		You know, it wouldn't.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		You'd have nothing left for that.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		That's right, absolutely.
		Now, the other factor which sort of puts the icing on the case and answering that question is a factor that we received about two weeks ago.
		This was from a grass formation that a lady found in England in a field beside her house of grass.
		There was a ring about 18 inches wide and about 70 feet in diameter of down grass.
		Then inside this ring was a Y formation, also a perfect Y, and everywhere where the Y crossed the ring, the Y also was about 18 inches wide and extended across this ring.
		Wherever the arms of the Y lapped over the ring, the plants were dead black, but only in these crossing places.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		On the carbon surface.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, right.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		We had no idea what this was when it was sent into the lab, but as examination continued, we eliminated various things like mold and fungi and so on.
unidentified		And the one thing that was left was carbon black.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Now this was verified as being exactly that by two different magistrates.
unidentified		Carbon black, but I'm talking about it by Keith.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		By Keith of a special kind.
		I'll get to that in a second.
		This layer was very puzzling because you could rub the leaf of the plant, the black would come off on your finger, very typical of carbon black.
		And underneath, the cells of the plant, although they were dead, they were not burned, they were not particularly injured.
		And they looked the same as those outside this intersection area.
		This was an extremely thin layer.
		So the big problem is here, where could this carbon come from?
		Well, it finally dawned on us that this was not coming from anywhere.
		It was coming, it was right on the plant itself.
		It was a very, very superficial layer, and it consisted of all plants, house plants, if you look at their leaves, they tend to be shiny.
		This is due to what's known as a superized layer.
		This is a hydrocarbon substance.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Like a waxy coating on leaves.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Like a waxy coating, exactly.
		That is a superized layer.
		That's just a hydrocarbon wax.
		And what was happening here is this energy, this heat energy, was so rapid, and it also was of a special, it's called a reducing atmosphere, as opposed to the normal oxidizing atmosphere when you burn wood in your fireplace.
		It literally reduced in a very rapid way this paraffin to pure carbon, leaving the under structure of the plant essentially normal.
		So this was another factor that showed that there was a very obvious rapid heating.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And Art, Dr. Levengood is now studying soil samples and plant samples from people in Michigan and other parts of the country where they have had either rings or circles in their backyards or front yards seemingly associated with what we now call the human abduction syndrome.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And what is interesting is that in that soil that in some cases in the abduction syndrome appears to be hardened or baked or dead, he has found that when some of the plants from these rings and circles in the yards of abductees are planted, they grow at an accelerated rate exactly as he has found from plants sampled in these various countries that he has studied the last three years.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you find yourself now drawn more to the abduction aspect than you have been, Linda?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		I think it has been equally interwoven in my own investigation and work since I did a strange harvest back in 1980 because of the Judy Doherty case.
		I had not been aware of the whole abduction syndrome until I started working on a strange harvest.
		And that is what led me to the Judy Doherty and Cindy Tyndall case.
		And that was the mother and daughter who had been traveling with their family in Houston, Texas in May of 1973.
		And it was an incident where five people in a car apparently all lose time all at the same time, but no one has any conscious memory of what happened during that event.
		And that's something that Ray Fowler probably tonight could go into.
		The whole issue of there are multiple witnesses, and there are cases where there are people in a car that seem to be simultaneously affected by amnesia.
		It's part of this manipulation of our minds that we don't understand very well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has there been any hypnosis done in that case yet?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		When I did A Strange Harvest, I worked with Dr. Leo Sprinkle, who was then head of counseling and testing at the University of Wyoming, with Judy, who was the mother.
		And that case came about in one of the ways that researchers often receive cases.
		She had been suffering very severe headaches, and she had been having nightmares, but she had no conscious memory of any event that related necessarily to these headaches and the nightmares.
		She sought out a medical doctor for treatment of her headaches, and it was the medical doctor that suggested that perhaps this was related to some sort of psychological trauma.
		That led to eventually hypnosis, and in the hypnosis, she could see a Beam of light that had an animal going up in it, but she could not clearly see what the animal was in that first hypnosis session.
		Later, while I was working on a strange harvest, that case became known to a group in Arizona that were also working on the entire UFO phenomenon and all its complicated facets.
		They got me in touch with her, and eventually we did the hypnosis session in which she broke through her amnesia completely and saw a brown and white calf going up in this beam of light.
		Ten years later, her daughter, who had been a teenager in 1973 and had rejected everything about that night, had rejected her mother's claim that there was something unusual, finally got out herself.
		And in her own independent hypnosis with Jack Carpenter in Missouri, she also saw a brown and white calf going up in a pale beam of yellow light into yet an unidentified object in the sky.
		And that's how, throughout my entire research of mutilations, I came into the human abduction syndrome.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, this multiple witness business is particularly interesting, isn't it?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yes, because you have at least some kind of verification.
		And in their case, the mother never talked with the daughter.
		And in fact, the family have stories about how the daughter never wanted to hear anything about what her mother or anybody would have to say, no matter what.
		So you had a resistance to the entire idea of UFOs or anything else.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Perhaps some sort of psychological protective mechanism.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, the daughter was extremely resistant in avoidance of the subject, and then eventually, which does happen sometimes, and Ray probably has cases himself where something, whether it's in dreams or some other way, people are nagged by something.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		And eventually, as Cindy got older, something bothered her, and she eventually went into hypnosis, and out came a very, very similar story.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I sure do thank you for all of this, Linda.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating stuff.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Well, and to know that there's a circle in a yard in Michigan right now that soil and plant samples are being studied by a biophysicist who absolutely did not three years ago think that he was dealing with anything but meteorology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Linda, are you going to be back in Philadelphia next week?
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, next Sunday.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We'll look for you and your report then.
linda moulton howe ▲ ● ▼		Thank you, and my best to Ray Fowler.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		And Ray Fowler, indeed, coming right up.
		Raymond E. Fowler was born in Salem, Massachusetts, and received a D.A. degree from Gordon College of Liberal Arts.
		As fire and foreign service with the USAF Security Service and with GTE Strategic Systems Division.
		He retired early as a task manager and senior planner involved with major weapons systems development.
		He is quite a contributor to ufology.
		He's respected by UFO researchers throughout the world.
		His investigative reports have been published in congressional hearings, military publications, newspapers, magazines, and professional journals in the USA and abroad.
		The USAF UFO Project's chief scientific consultant, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, has called Raymond Fowler, quote, an outstanding UFO investigator.
		I know of none who is more dedicated, trustworthy, or persevering.
		Ray currently serves as National Director of Investigations on the Board of Directors for the Mutual UFO Network and International Group Investigating UFOs.
		He has appeared on over 200 radio and television shows around the United States since 1963.
		He is a three-times published author.
		He is director of his own planetarium and observatory and a very popular speaker.
		And this morning, or this evening rather, he will speak with you.
		Here all the way from Massachusetts is Ray Fowler.
		Good evening, Ray.
		Are you there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I am.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, Oz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Excellent.
		Oh, I don't know about excellent.
		Now our telephone connection seems to be a little bit noisy.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Maybe it's on my end.
unidentified		I can try a different channel if you'd like to hold for a second.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's try it.
		Let's switch and see if we can clean it up.
		Or on the other hand, it may just be in the line itself.
		We have quite a long connection here.
		Is that better?
		As a matter of fact, it is.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Here we go again a little bit.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		No, we'll better leave it alone, I guess.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, we'll see if it clears up.
		If it doesn't, at some point, I'll simply redial the number and we'll reconnect.
		Ray, welcome to the program.
		Thank you.
		I take it that you heard Linda's report.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I did.
		Very, very interesting.
		I had heard about his work before.
		It was nice to hear him personally describe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You have been an investigator for MoveOn for how long, Ray?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I started out as state director for the state of Massachusetts probably back in the 70s after I got out of NICAP, the National Investigations Committee on Iran Phenomenon.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		So it's been quite a long time, probably since 1970.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		You must run into all kinds of fascinating stuff.
		Tell us a little bit about MUFON, if you would, and what exactly do you do?
		Do you go running about to different parts of the country or the world investigating some of these cases, or how do you pursue it?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, when I was the state director for Massachusetts for UFON and for NATCAP, I did a lot of on-site investigations, hundreds of them.
		When I was made director of investigations from UFON, I really didn't do too many of the on-site investigations of just regular reports.
		I was more involved with abduction reports and also in putting together a field investigator's manual from UFON, keeping that up to date, and receiving telephone calls from people all over the country who had had UFO experiences.
		And then my duty was really to refer them to the state directors from UFON for investigation.
		So instead of doing an awful lot of on-site investigations now, I refer a lot of cases and I pick a few cases that I'm very interested in and give them the FBI treatment.
		Maybe spend two or three years investigating just one report rather than just an on-site investigation of a regular UFO report.
		I'm spending more time on the abduction phenomenon.
		Right now, I'm concentrating on a facet of the abduction phenomenon that I think deserves further study, and that's the paraphysical nature of some of these abduction reports.
		The one that Linda just mentioned, for example, the Judy Dougherty case, is fascinating because it involved an out-of-the-body experience as well as a physical abduction.
		And in my correspondence with, oh, I must have gotten around 4,000 letters in response to the watchers and personal contacts.
		I find that a certain percentage of the abduction reports involve OBEs.
		And being a nuts and bolts person for so many, many years, I sort of ignored things like this, and a lot of other investigators are too.
		So right now I'm concentrating on that facet of the abduction phenomenon.
		It's fascinating.
		And I think that it should be given the FBI treatment as well.
		And I'm trying to do that right now.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I talked to a lot of serious investigators, Ray, and many of them now seem to feel that the abduction aspect of the whole UFO controversy is the best path to follow in trying to prove something or trying to finally put our hands on some real evidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Would you share that view?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I would.
		Another thing I'm very interested in is the physical marks left on abductees.
		I'm collecting dozens of photographs of scoop marks in exactly the same location.
		In fact, if you lay these out on the table, many of them you would think were on the same person in the same place, the same size.
		They may vary a little bit.
		I think this is one aspect that has to be looked at, too.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where are these marks generally on the body?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, usually, not always.
		Usually, they're on the leg over the tibular or shin bone.
		Another place it would be on the arm or on the spinal column, sometimes on the back and forehead.
		But the most common one that I'm finding is just over the shin bone.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are these marks, when you see them, always in a healed condition, or are some of them that are more recent actually not healed all the way?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you find?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Most of the ones I've seen are healed.
		If you've read The Watchers and know about some of the things I reported from my own personal life, when I went to the dermatologist, he said it was in the process of healing.
		But I haven't been able to get to anybody except Jack Weina, and his seems to be healing as well.
		He was one of the Allergash abduction abductees.
		I have never been able to get to someone other than myself the next day to see what it looks like.
		Usually you get these reports, oh, months or years after they happen.
		Most people don't even know what these things are.
		They'll have a close encounter UFO sighting and they'll have flashbacks or dreams of an abduction experience.
		And finally, a certain percentage of them get involved with a UFO investigator.
		And lo and behold, they look at that scoop mark and they say, wow, you know, this is a benchmark of the abduction phenomenon and ask them, you know, when did they get that?
		And if they remember, it usually coincides with a UFO experience.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		How many people do you suppose, and this is speculative, I guess, have had these abduction experiences, and what percentage of them seem to recall it?
		I know that the Big Low Foundation did a big study on it indicating as many as 1 in 50.
		Would you think that to be credible?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I would say that 1 in 50 have exhibited the typical benchmarks or characteristics of an abduction experience, but that doesn't perhaps qualify them as an abductee because there may be some other phenomena that are involved that coincides with the abduction phenomenon.
		I would say that probably a high percentage of that 1 in 50 may have had an abduction experience, but there's no real way of telling.
		I think this is the first step, a statistical study like this, and I think it must be refined.
		I think that these people, or a certain percentage of these people, should be chosen and investigated further.
		And then a percentage may be come out of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ray, hold on just one sec while I ID the station, and we'll be right back.
unidentified		Back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Area 2000.
		I'm Art Bell.
		It's Sunday evening.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonz Pleaser downtown.
unidentified		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening, everybody.
		This is Area 2000.
		My guest is Ray Fowler, all the way from the state of Massachusetts.
		And we're talking about abductions this evening.
		Ray, are you still there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I sure am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good.
		What in the world, I'm going to backtrack a little bit now, got you interested in this whole field of work?
		I mean, how did you come to it?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I was interested in experimental aircraft and space travel as a teenager back in the mid-40s, and when flying discs appeared in headlines all over the country, and the Air Force immediately took an interest.
		I took an interest as well.
		And as a teenager, just began collecting information on the subject.
		And then on July 4th, 1947, had my own daylight disc sighting.
		And when I was working on a farm in broad daylight, I saw this disc-shaped object, which I thought was a parachute, at first drifting along.
		And as it got closer, I saw that there was no person and no shroud lines.
		And it descended in a falling leaf motion.
		So that really piqued my interest.
		In fact, the newspaper, a few days afterwards, that was on a Saturday, the Monday newspaper, the local one, had banner headlines of the discs seen in the area.
		I think that when it became apparent that the discs were not experimental aircraft and that our government and other governments had launched investigations, I became extremely interested.
		During my tour with the Air Force Security Service, I came across various people who had been directly involved with the UFO study, and it was being taken very seriously.
		So when I got out, I began to perform on-site investigations myself and send unsolicited reports to Project Blue Book and to NICAP.
		And then NICAP, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena at that time, sent their state director, Walter Webb, who was assistant director of Hayden Planetarium in Boston, to see me and sort of took me on as an on-the-job trainee investigator.
		And from there, I became state director and then became involved with the University of Colorado Air Force-sponsored study and with Dr. J.L. Hynek sent a few UFO studies from UFON.
		So it's been sort of an evolution.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It sounds as though, though, if I had to guess, that your own sighting did it for you.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yes, and when I look back in retrospect and after I did the Andreason affair investigation, some other abduction reports, and recognized what had happened in my early childhood also might have been involved with these experiences, I think that perhaps my interest might have been subconsciously influenced by that.
		That's just sheer speculation on my part.
		But there has been a burning interest as soon as they appeared in the 1947 wave.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can you tell us about the Andresen case?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		There was sort of a lull in activity in Massachusetts, and no one had really looked into an abduction report locally here.
		And we contacted Dr. Hynek and asked him if there were anybody in Massachusetts that had reported an abduction experience.
		And he sent a copy of a letter that came from Betty Andreessen, who lived in South Ashburnham, Massachusetts.
		And she was a very religious person, a fundamentalist Christian, and she interpreted her experience as being religious.
		But when you lifted that out of the experience, it was a typical abduction experience, the same type of entities and so forth, into the house.
		But all she could remember was them entering the house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm a little curious.
		In what way did she connect it to her religious faith?
		What did she feel had occurred to her?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		She felt that because these things could come through the door and do the things they did, that she was involved with angels.
		And so we decided to give it the FBI treatment.
		I did a real rugged character reference check on her, for example, and decided that she was a sane person.
		And we conducted a couple of years of hypnotic regression sessions for the Andreas and Affair Phase I investigation.
		Actually, it's been three, and I'm on a fourth now.
		And she relied being taken out of the house.
		Her family were left behind with one entity.
		They were put in sort of a state of suspended animation, except for her daughter.
		Once in a while, the entity would let her out of this state.
		But she was taken and given a physical examination, and a lot of strange things happened to her, and then returned to the house.
		And we thought that was the end of it.
		But while she was on the operating table, they took something out of her nose.
		And we tried to find out how that got in there at that time, but she became so emotionally upset that the hypnotist didn't want to push it any further.
		So it wasn't until later on when she was available again, she had moved to Florida, that we did a phase two investigation and found out that something had been, her eye had been taken out and something had been put somewhere within her head.
		We assumed behind the eye maybe.
		And that's probably how that got in there, and they were taking it out that way.
		It's been a long investigation.
		I'm doing the Phase IV investigation now.
		There's just a wealth of detail, not only with Betty, but with members of her family.
		It seems this is a family phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		She must be a very patient lady to go through these years of research.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		She feels that she's supposed to be doing this.
		They told her that she was supposed to be doing this if you accepted at face value.
		And so she is very willing, but sometimes I feel very badly for her when she's reliving some of these experiences.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What kind of detail did she give you about the beings that had taken her?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, the beings that had taken her initially were probably about four to four and a half feet tall with a head shaped much like an inverted pear with large mongoloid eyes, a diminutive nose, slit for a mouth, and holes for ears, maybe a tiny earlobe.
		They communicated by telepathy.
		They didn't walk.
		They floated almost like a skater, you know, along just above the floor or above the ground.
		They could make right-angle turns.
		When they came into the house, they left one behind and they came in in a row.
		As they came in the door, through the door, they would appear and disappear, and there'd be sort of a wisp of like vapor behind as they came in.
		They came in, appear, disappear, appear, disappear.
		And when they went out, there was a slot in this line of entities, and she was swept off her feet and floated in this line, and she went right through the door as well, which is another typical characteristic of people being taken through doors, through walls, through windows with these beings.
		That was that particular type of entity.
		Another type of entity that she has seen and others have seen with these.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That first one that you described, though, that is the one commonly described again And again and again, isn't it?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		And another type of entity that seems to be controlling the activities of these entities look very much like us.
		They don't have the jumpsuit garments that these small ones have, these almost skin-type garments, but they look anything like what an extraterrestrial would look like.
		They wear white robes.
		They're about seven feet tall.
		Some have blonde hair, some have gray hair, they have blue eyes.
		And they, like the entities, communicate by telepathy and seem to be behind the whole thing.
		There is an intermediate entity that looks just like the small ones, but taller, that seems to be in control, too.
		There seems to be a pecking out of you if you accept all of this at face value.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Phew.
		Have you concluded through your research anything at all about motive?
		In other words, what they're doing or why they're doing it?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's hard to know at this juncture.
		What we do know is that one of the things that usually happen during these abductions is that sperm and ovar are extracted from male and female abductees.
		Then there's a big leap of faith.
		If we take at face value, what some abductees, including Betty, are told by the abductors, there seems that, and I can't explain this really, I've tried to in the watches, but I'm not really sure about this.
		There seems to be a symbiotic genetic relationship that exists between them and us.
		In fact, what they told Betty was that those three and a half, four and a half foot beings were actually human fetuses that had been removed from human surrogate mothers and grown outside the womb.
		And when you hear things like that, and when you look at these things, these hairless things, and you look at the mongoloid eyes and you say to yourself, wow, and so many people describe them as looking like fetuses, you wonder if what she allegedly was shown is real.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, you would expect more human characteristics from a human hybrid.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		It would seem, again, if you take them what they told Betty at face value, that they claim that they're doing this because mankind is becoming sterile.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		And, you know, several years after that was said, I began to read newspaper reports about this very thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Because mankind is becoming sterile?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had always heard it the other way, Ray, that they were taking some sort of genetic something or another from us because their genetic code had become.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I was just going to get to that as well.
		They're having problems as well.
		But what they're saying is that mankind is becoming sterile.
		And as I mentioned, several years after this was told her, a number of major newspaper articles came out that indicated, I think, was 50% drop over the last several decades of sperm count in males.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe I just heard that not long ago.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so that's very interesting.
		I guess all you can say right now is that they seem to be interested in the reproductive systems of male and female.
		They take sperm and over, and they seem to be doing what we might call a genetic engineering program of some kind.
		If you accept at face value the surrogate mother and removal of fetuses, then you probably could go all the way and say, yes, that what Betty witnessed on board a craft, these two fetuses taken from a woman and put in tanks and so forth, you know, could be true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ray, that sounds as though, if you take it as you say at face value, they have some sort of proprietary interest in us.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you can choose not to answer this question if you wish, but would you think that might mean that they would be our creators or interested in us after the fact?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I claim, and again, you see, as an investigator, I'm more or less a reporter.
		What they told Betty, since we're talking about Betty, that they have been around since our beginning.
		And that would probably imply that they may have had something to do with our beginning.
		There's a tremendous leap in evolution, you know, back if you go back and look at the beginnings of man, one could speculate that they tampered with a pre-human being, if you would, and made them in their own image.
		But, you know, that, again, is sheer speculation at this point.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that would indicate they would have a lot more genetic knowledge than that which we've amassed about ourselves so far.
		And it looks as though an awful lot of diseases, maybe even cancer and AIDS and some of the rest of them, may have genetic solutions if there is ever to be a solution.
		And one would almost long for them to assist us in one of these areas.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, that brings up another question.
		You know, why don't they?
		Why haven't they?
		Or are they doing something that we are unaware of over the centuries and so forth that has been helpful to us through these abduction experiences?
		You know what?
		You wonder why, over and over and over again, that they're doing these things, not just talking about the alleged fetus removal, but why are they making punch biopsies?
		Why are they taking sperm?
		Why are they taking over?
		Why are they interested in us physically and so many people?
		You know, there's got to be a symbiotic relationship between them and us.
		What they seem to be saying is that their survival is dependent upon our survival.
		Now, you can speculate what that might mean.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Has anybody toyed with the idea?
		I understand that a lot of people who claim to have been abducted are frequently abducted and then reabducted and reabducted.
		And I wonder if it might be possible to, crazy as this may sound, in a sense, send them a message.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Send who the message now?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, send the abductors a message through an abductee.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, with the presumption that somebody is going to be abducted once again, as seems to be the case so many times, simply give them a message from us and try to open some channel of communication.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		My opinion is that's no problem.
		They could communicate anytime they want.
		I think this is one of the reasons that a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons that they're considered a threat to national security is I was talking to scientists who work for the Air Force, one of the Air Force projects, and they felt because of the evasiveness of the phenomenon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hello there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I don't know if that was.
		Evasiveness of a phenomenon that you had to treat something like that as a threat.
		In fact, some of the early documents that were released through the Freedom of Information Act indicate that I have one right here, that action which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar.
		So when you have something that violates a country's airspace, doesn't identify itself, can outpace anything that you send up to do something with it, you don't know where it comes from, you don't know what it's doing here, and it disrupts weapon systems and does all kinds of things, you can see from a military point of view that this must be treated as a possible potential threat.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I'm certain they do.
		That brings us to the whole cover-up question, but I want to ask you a question about contact, Ray.
		I've come to the conclusion, after doing talk shows about this for years and years, that there are a lot of people with religious faith out there, a strong religious faith, that would be terribly challenged by contact by these beings.
		If there was some great official, you know, the saucer lands on the White House kind of deal, a White House lawn kind of deal, that unless they were protected, if they made contact in the wrong way, a lot of people would try to do these beings in.
		In other words, society really may not be ready for contact.
		How do you feel about that?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm a devout Christian myself, and I must say that this has caused me to really expand my faith, much to the consternation of some of my peers, who some of them would feel that even the existence of extraterrestrial life is nonsense.
		And you're right.
		A study made by Brookings Institute for NASA back in 1961 indicated that two groups in this country would be the most devastated if just alien life was discovered.
		Never mind them discovering us and making contact.
		The first group was fundamentalist Christianity.
		The second group, believe it or not, was science and engineers, because technology, they felt, would be so above our science and technology that you could compare it to Western scientists with all their equipment and so forth going into an Aboriginally tribe and sort of the witch doctor there would probably be their equivalent of science.
		And there would be a huge gap between scientific knowledge.
		And when you make that comparison, you're talking about Homo sapiens sapiens on the same planet.
		We have PhDs from MIT on this planet, and we have Aborigines still in the Stone Age.
		It must be very interesting for an extraterrestrial race to be studying that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
		If you had evidence, and I frequently ask this too, Ray, if you had incontrovertible evidence that they existed, and you sat down and thought about it yourself, that is, whether you would release it or not, would you?
		Sure.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I feel it's part of man's evolution.
		I think that when you look back, we're talking about the impact, for example, on science and religion.
		When you look back to the early days, you know, prior to Galileo, Copernicus, and the rest of them, Kepler, you had a system that was wed to Aristotle's thought about the universe.
		You had a geocentric universe.
		And then you had a discovery that sort of turned the world upside down.
		All of theology, all of science was wed to Aristotle, and you had what was called a Copernican Revolution.
		And it was a very painful process for people to go through.
		But, you know, here we are.
		We accept these things now as common knowledge, but it was a part of man's evolution.
		And I think holding information like this back, as disruptive as it might be, is part of man's heritage and evolution.
		I know that something like this, the abduction phenomenon, for example, the crash retrieval bit, all of this was made public.
		If the President of the United States get up and showed positive evidence that all this was going on, that it would cause disruptions.
		You don't have to do much to cause the stock market to crash, for example.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, you sure don't.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of things that would happen.
		But, again, I feel very strongly that that's something that it's growing up means for the human race, and it's something that we've got to go through.
		And I think that UFO investigators who come into this with their own worldviews, their own religious systems, including myself, have gone through almost a grieving process because our world has been turned upside down, as it were.
		The things that we thought Were normal the way things should be, turn out not to be that way at all.
		And it is a painful process when you have to start expanding your worldview or your religion or whatever.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ray, with all that you've investigated, I'm curious, have you come to any conclusions about whether these beings are friendly and one should not fear them?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Or given an opportunity in an abduction situation, would you advise somebody instead, if they could, to run like hell?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I don't think you could run.
		And second of all, I think if they were hostile, like we consider hostile, that they could have done something a long time ago.
		I think they're only hostile because they're something that's completely out of the ordinary to the, well, just to everybody.
		I mean, anything unknown is hostile.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it produces fear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's for sure.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, fear.
		I mean, to have an abduction experience is not even the equivalent of having your dead grandmother sort of float through the wall and start talking to you.
		It's so completely out of the realm of possibility, of even probability, that it's awfully hard to accept that something like that can happen.
		And even after it happens, and you mentioned how many people remember this, I think Dr. Bullet's study indicated that maybe 30% of abductees remember most of the abduction without hypnosis.
		Sometimes it will come back with a complete flashback, for example.
		It affects a person for life because there are questions that will never probably be answered.
		They never can tell if it's going to happen again.
		I talk to people sometimes for almost an hour on the telephone, just listening to them.
		They're afraid to go to bed.
		They go to bed.
		They leave the lights on.
		They lock the doors.
		They keep the radio going because they don't know when it's going to happen again.
		It can really disrupt a person's life.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you tell them about the probability?
		They must ask.
		In other words, they would ask you, look, in all the cases you've investigated, how many of them have turned out to be multiple abductions of a single individual?
		What are the chances, in other words, that I'll be abducted again?
		What are the chances?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I think the chances are very good.
		I think it usually starts at least around five or six years old, and it continues.
		I think bullet study indicated that it continues maybe in the 30s or 40s, and sometimes even after that.
		But I would say that that probably is the baseline.
		Five or six years old, probably earlier, but how can you tell, except in a few cases where the parents might be witnesses of it, until they're 30 or 40 years old.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's not much comfort for an individual, is it?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, it isn't.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		And I've dealt with a lot of people who, including the Yalagash abduction case that I just finished a short while ago.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, that's the next thing I'm going to ask you about.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alagash.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, see, that started when the twins involved in that were, again, five or six years old.
		They didn't know that.
		They thought they were dealing with ghosts and paranormal phenomena.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		I can imagine that people would attach all kinds of different scenarios to it based on their life.
		In other words, if they're devoutly religious, they're probably having a religious experience.
		Or if they're into sort of a new age sort of thing, they calculate they've had an out-of-body experience.
		They probably attach all kinds of scenarios to this, don't they?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and I think that it's possible over the injury, isn't it there, that Betty has superimposed her religious beliefs on her experience, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about that.
		It could possibly be that they, in turn, are using her religious beliefs to help to calm and assuage her fears, and then it could be a possible connection.
		You've got three things there.
		And what I try to do is stay neutral and say that these are three possibilities because he's not the only one that seems to have a theological content, as it were, to their abduction experiences.
		And at the MIT conference, I guess it was Bud Hopkins was saying that he felt that that theological content should be ignored and that it was a waste of time to look into it.
		And a lot of investigators are saying that the paraphysical part of the abduction is a waste of time.
		Let's deal with the nuts and bolts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What's your feeling about that aspect of it, the out-of-the-board?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		The aspect is that I've come across so many cases, including the one that Linda Mogenha was talking about, involving an out-of-the-body experience abduction and the physical body being left behind.
		I've come across so many of those that I'm saying that my next, well, I'm working on it now, book will deal with this particular aspect.
		I think that you can't ignore these things.
		A report written by an investigator usually reflects that investigators, unfortunately, because no one's completely objective, his or her own worldview.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		And if you are strictly a nuts and bolts UFO researcher, if you have a paranormal thing happen, you ignore it.
		It never comes up in the report.
		And there are a lot of other things.
		There's a religious aspect to it that may be dumped too.
		And what you do, unfortunately, is you just give one facet of the UFO phenomenon in that particular report.
		I feel that if you're going to investigate these reports...
		Wherever it leads, you've got to have a baseline that includes everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		And then if you find this over and over and over and over again, not just a few isolated incidents, if you just find a few isolated incidents, you say, well, this could be the personality of the person and so forth.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		But if you find it over and over and over again, that will be your real baseline, Not what happens to be a mirror image of what you think should be or shouldn't be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		People can put themselves in an altered state.
		And I wonder, Ray, if you think that one of these altered states is likely to bring on an abduction, an abduction.
		In other words, if you wanted to experiment with an altered state, would you think that it might have a chance of bringing something like this on?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		That's possible.
		Usually, I think the altered state comes from the outside upon the abductee.
		I don't think that the abductee can cause, as far as I know, I mean, I don't know of any case where someone can cause something like this to happen.
		I think there are some people, and there aren't too many people, that can, of their own volition, have an out-of-the-body experience.
		But even then, I've challenged these people sometimes to do various things for me, and they haven't been able to perform yet.
		So that the real OVE seems to be something, for the most part, something that comes from the outside.
		It may be a near-death experience, for example, or someone, I don't know how many cases I've read about, someone who's actually not dead, physically dead or pronounced dead, but is in a situation, for example, a car going over a cliff, and they're in the car, and all of a sudden they're outside of the car and they're watching everything.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Ray, we have a break, a five-minute break here at the top of the hour, and then we'll be back.
		So relax for about five minutes, and we'll be right back to you.
		That's Ray Fowler.
		And Ray, I'm going to redow your number during this break.
		Okay.
		All right.
		You're listening to Area 2000 on a Sunday evening from KDWN, The Talk of the West.
		I'm Mark Bell.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		From Jackie Gonz Pleasant downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
		KP Network News.
		I'm Mark Hambrick.
		A spacewalk outside Shuttle Endeavor is well underway this hour, the second of the mission aimed at fixing the Hubble Telescope.
		We'll get a live update now from my colleague Bob Moon at the Kennedy Space Center.
		Bob?
		Well, it may be one of the prettiest pieces of space junk ever seen as they work to replace the big power panels on the Hubble Space Telescope.
		Endeavor's fix-it crew disconnected one of the solar sails and pushed it overboard.
		Spacewalker Kathy Thornton, riding on the end of the shuttle's robot arm, held the big power panel above her head and then simply let go.
		You ready?
		Hey, I'm ready.
		Okay, they say you've got to go for release.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Expect 20 pulses on the United States.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Hey, behind!
unidentified		And there's going to be 20 pulses on the United States from a jet burn.
w c levengood ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		As Commander Dick Cuppey fired the shuttle's jets in a separation burn, the panel started twisting end over end.
		And now, TV pictures from space show it soaring through against the backdrop of the ocean, looking something like a bird flying over the sea.
		Bob Moon, AP Network News, live at the Kennedy Space Center.
		The U.S. and Russian militaries are discussing a proposal...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Good evening again.
		Welcome back to Area 2000 on a Sunday night.
		By the way, for those of you that have not yet had an opportunity to view it, the shots of the space shuttle working on the Hubble telescope are absolutely astounding.
		And they can be seen in a couple of places.
		CNN is running them with occasional breaks.
		If you want it uninterrupted, I'm not sure if they're carrying it tonight.
		But C-SPAN, if you have access to cable or satellite, C-SPAN has also been running the shuttle video uninterrupted, and it's quite spectacular and should be going on shortly.
		So you may want to get that locked in on your television set.
		My guest is Ray Fowler.
		Fascinating stuff.
		We're talking about abductions, and we have re-dialed Ray, but there is a significant storm, I guess, going on in the northeast.
		And so we may be troubled by this same static.
		Ray, are you there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I sure am.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it sounds a little better.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, we've had a tremendous rainstorm with maybe a couple inches of rain, and now we're getting sort of a cold wave behind it, a lot of wind blowing, and I think it's probably blowing the telephone lines.
		I've changed a couple of different channels here.
		I think it's a lot better.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, it does sound better.
		Good.
		All right, to finish up with the out-of-body experiences, it is a fascinating aspect, and you're right.
		I found that a lot of researchers, if it involves this aspect or the religious aspect, run away from it.
		And that seems to me to be sort of a deviation from what ought to be a real scientific approach.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I've finally decided that, well, I've watched Dr. Hynek and I watched Dr. Jacques Relet move from a strictly nuts and bolts interest in the phenomenon to more interest in the paraphysical side of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, in other words, some of the nuts and bolts might not be nuts and bolts that we recognize, That's correct.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		And when you have an object disappear and appear on radar, as you're watching it visually, as if it were going somewhere else and then coming back into the space-time continuum, we might be, I think Dr. Hynek in his later years was thinking that they may be extraterrestrial, but maybe they travel in another dimension that...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're just ahead of me.
		I was about to ask you about...
		about the possibility of it being dimensional travel as opposed to travel through space itself.
		Is that not at least as likely?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, y'all, and this is why I'm interested in the paraphysical aspects of this, because when a person is taken and his body is left behind, he or she is taken by the same entities.
		And don't ask me how this explains it.
		And they are physically examined, quote unquote, the same way that they would have been if their physical body had been taken with them.
		And then they are returned.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think this will, Ray, do you think this is going to lead you into perhaps some research with the people looking into near-death experiences?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I already have.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		In fact, Dr. Ring has just written a new book, and he's probably one of the leading advocates or researchers into this.
		And he had kind of the same conclusion as I had in The Watchers, where I think there is a definite connection between, and this sounds incredible, I never thought I'd even be saying this to anybody, let alone on radio.
		When you talk to people who have gone through what Dr. Bullitt says the tour in the other world in the theopany, which most abductees don't go through, what they describe is very similar to what people who have the near-death experience describe, so much so that this is another aspect of the abduction phenomenon I'm concentrating on as well.
		And it's caused Dr. Ring, who has been working with the near-death experience for many, many years, to look at the UFO phenomenon for the first time after he met Betty and Bob Andreas.
		Luca is now Betty and Bob Luca.
		And the Andreas affair and the investigations into them has led him to look into the whole UFO abduction phenomenon.
		So all of a sudden, you have the NDE expert coming from one direction and so-called UFO experts coming another direction and meeting each other.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating because those are the exact two aspects that this program is concentrated on.
unidentified		I was surprised, well, I'm surprised I'm pleased to hear that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And so am I in view of the fact that the research may now be moving, the two areas of research may be moving toward each other.
		Fascinating.
		How are you now going to proceed as you move into these areas?
		Are you going to start contacting these investigators more and more?
		Or how are you going to move now direction-wise in your investigations?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I guess I'm going to concentrate on those reports, including the Andreeis Nephir, on those reports that report the OBE and the NDE type characteristics.
		And if I look into enough of them, try to come up with some kind of analysis of the similarities, much the same way that Dr. Bullet did with his study of the abduction phenomenon in a general way.
		But specifically, look at these particular cases and see how they stand up in comparison to each other.
		And it's going to be a long study.
		I've just really started this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ms. Trello, is there anybody else doing similar work now and moving down some of the lines that you're anticipating or have begun to move down?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I know of, and I was really surprised to hear it, is Dr. Ring.
		And again, he has started at the other end, starting from the NDE and working toward the UFO.
		And I'm working toward the UFO and working toward the NDE and interviewing people who have had out-of-the-body experiences and near-death experiences as well.
		I mean, aside from the UFO phenomenon, as well as people who have had the UFO abduction experience and have had these experiences.
		One of the things that have happened to even people who haven't had the abduction experience, I find over and over again, people who have had a close encounter of any kind with a UFO, that they, a lot of them, a large percentage of them, began to experience a variety of psychic phenomena.
		Some of them had no interest in psychic phenomena.
		Nothing like that had ever happened to them.
		Sometimes it goes on for a few weeks and it stops, and sometimes it goes on and on and on.
		Poltergeist phenomena, other body experiences, strange synchronistic things happening.
		And how this connects with the UFO experience they had, I don't know.
		One can say that the experience enhanced their so-called psychic abilities, so that they were able to detect things, that they were always there, but for some reason the experience somehow enhanced their psychic abilities.
		Or one could say that it's a continuation of the experience, and all they are seeing is sort of the visible tip of something that's going on, a monitoring system or something that's going on.
		But as an investigator and a reporter, all I can say is that you have A, a close encounter with the UFO, and B, coinciding with that, in many cases, you'll have an eruption of psychic phenomena, so-called.
		We call it psychic phenomena, that's just a name.
		You really don't know what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you're really following a fascinating area of research, and I'm going to stay close to you if I can and find out where it goes.
		I really think you might be on the right track.
		I'm curious about this.
		The UFO community itself, for years, has faced people like yourself who would come out, would face some sort of ridicule.
		And I wonder if now, following the path that you're following, you're liable to face ridicule from the standard UFO community.
		Oh, I'm sure.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I had a business meeting with some people this afternoon and two very, very enthusiastic people who have been involved in the nuts and bolts study for years.
		And they're very, very rigid in their particular beliefs.
		And they wouldn't have anything to do with what I was talking about.
		And it was interesting to talk to them face to face and so forth.
		And I guess why it didn't interest them is that they feel, and I feel too, that the scientific method for proof of UFOs can't possibly apply to paranormal phenomena.
		How can you capture something like that and how can you measure it and test it and so forth, except in a statistical way?
		What they're looking for, and what I'm looking for too, is the physical evidence, something that you can measure in a laboratory, just like the gentleman that's examining the crop circle.
		This is the physical part of the phenomenon, or examining physical traces that are left behind ground effects.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		True enough, and I'm not discounting it, Ray, but gee whiz, years and years and years of examination of physical evidence, and we still have no real answers.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		No, all it does is give you some evidence to support the anecdotal data that comes forth from a witness indicating that, you know, I saw an object sitting there in the field.
		You go to the field, and you see what looked like microwave radiation that's baked the earth down to maybe a foot or something, and you see three or four pad marks, and you take a penetrometer, and it looks like a ton sat on each thing.
		So you can say, well, you know, something was here, and they described that something was here, therefore, something must have been there, but it really doesn't tell you where it comes from, what it's doing here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		You know, what of anything you can do about it.
		I guess it gives you very, very strong evidence that there was a machine-like-looking object sitting there, and it took off, just like the witness said, because there'd be no way for the witness to be able to duplicate what is left behind.
		But it really doesn't give you the answers.
		If the abduction phenomenon is real and not illusory, and whatever is behind it wants to communicate through that means, that's the only way we're going to know.
		My own opinion is that we are like the donkey being led by a carrot.
		I think that the phenomenon, slowly but surely, is going to allow us to very slowly but surely come to terms with it.
		And when you look back, and I've been in this since 47 as far as interest goes, and 63 since an investigation goes, it has been a process.
		I mean, you had the flyovers, and that was very hard to accept.
		Then you had the close encounters.
		I can remember researchers back there when people would say that they saw a machine-like object rather than a distant object close by that they were scoffed at, and that was hard to accept.
		Then you had the landed objects, and the researchers scoffed at that for a while, and then finally accepted that.
		And then you had the close encounters of a third kind where entities were seen and associated with the object, and people were laughed at.
		Reports were thrown in the wastebasket, and then finally that was accepted.
		Now you've got the abduction reports, and finally that's being accepted.
		is getting into either the UFO research community into the health professional community.
		It's sort of been...
		Yeah, maybe.
		What it seems to be is that we've been undergoing a conditioning.
		It reminds me of a story I heard where some missionaries were trying to contact this tribe, and they overflew the village with an airplane, scared the living daylights out of them.
		But after they saw the airplane for a long time, they didn't run.
		So they rigged up a rope with a basket on it, and they dropped it down, and they were able to circle the plane, so the basket would stay fairly still.
		And the natives finally would come out and start getting closer and closer to the basket, and they put some machetes in it and some tools and so forth.
		And finally, they grabbed those.
		And finally, they were trading back and forth.
		And then finally, they landed the plane and they made contact.
		Unfortunately, their intentions were misconstrued, and they got killed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, Ray, if we are the natives and the conditioning is underway now, how far through that process do you think we might be?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I just have this strong, strong feeling that we started out at the base of a pyramid, and over the years, the lines on either side are getting closer and closer to the top.
		And the people that I talk to who have had the abduction experience have the same impression.
		I'm trying to be very objective, and I say maybe, maybe not, but I feel it's the phenomena wouldn't waste its time to be doing all it's been doing since 1947, and it's been doing an awful lot just for the fun of it.
		There has to be a purpose behind it.
		It's not a natural phenomenon.
		It's an intelligently controlled phenomenon.
		They interested in our weapon systems.
		When I worked for GTE Government Systems, I was involved with the development, research, and development and production of the Minuteman missile and talked to launch control facility officers and fellow Sylvanians or GTE Sylvanians we were at that time and other subcontractors and contractors out at the sites.
		And they were disrupting our equipment.
		Oh?
		Disrupting our equipment, and we couldn't do anything at all about it.
		Why were they doing that?
		Were they testing our defense systems or they were trying to tell us something?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Disrupting our equipment in what way, Ray?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, and Dr. Hynek confirmed this when I talked to him.
		One launch control facility officer told me that this thing was tracked by radar 100,000 feet up and was disrupting the total communication system of the launch control facility.
		In other words, the LCF, as they call them, would have found it very, very hard to communicate to the launch facility to fire a missile.
		Other launch control facility officers told me sometimes the whole flight would just go down.
		There were guidance control systems.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And you don't think you were the victim of some sort of electronic countermeasure?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know, I got into big trouble with my company for publishing some of that stuff.
		The Pentagon called, And the Strategic Air Command called, and they threatened to send a letter of displeasure to my company if I didn't drop this stuff.
		And that would have led to NASA when I sat into a crypto clearance, and that would have quickly run out of the defense industry, so I had to be very careful after that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You had a crypto clearance.
		Oh, that was an interesting avenue to follow in probably go-nowhere world.
		Roy, as a result, without being able to tell us anything specific, which would be a violation of the law, was there anything you ever found out that suffered far something other than what you just explained that would lead you to believe that we're dealing with extra thrusters?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		When I was with the United States Air Force Security Service, we each were in buildings.
		We weren't supposed to know what each building was doing.
		We were actually doing electronic spying on the Russians with sophisticated direction finders, and we would conduct mock raids on Russia, and they'd tune up their air defense command and send up fighters to meet aircraft approaching.
		And what we would do is using direction finders, we would know where every one of those radar sites were.
		We had people who were linguists were recording everything that was said, all the procedures.
		There were people taking Morse code and so forth.
		I talked to another person who wasn't really supposed to tell me this stuff, but he was saying that they used crypto channels to relay UFO information from England to the Pentagon.
		I never got involved with it.
		I wasn't involved with the teletype that he was involved in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now, wait a minute.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean after Project Blue Book, the government's interest actually did not wane?
unidentified		Well, this is back in the 50s.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Back in the 50s, right?
		Dr. Patrick, I remember that, um, how I have my own cases where Dr. Denderson, who ever In fact, the NF 146 Revision E specifically states that the Aerospace Defense Command is responsible for collecting information on unidentified flying objects from both civilian and military sources, regardless of Project Bluebook.
		Project Bluebook, since 1953, was probably just a public information group that was used to, well, they did send some of the better reports onward somewhere,
		but basically it was just a three-person group at the Pentagon at, well, not the Pentagon, at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and a public information officer at the Pentagon that essentially tried to assuage public panic or interest in the subject by explaining them away as natural phenomena or man-made objects or hoaxes and so forth.
		But the real reports that had scientific value would go somewhere else.
		But this is back in the 50s.
		I talked to a person, a very reliable person, who was in photography, and he told me that he had seen many gun camera and stills that he developed them himself.
		He wouldn't give me any details.
		All he would do was admit that it was being done and it was standard operating procedure.
		Dr. Hynek told me that when fighter planes took gun camera photographs, that they would land and they would be debriefed and the canister would be taken somewhere and they would be seen again.
		Well, Gordon Cooper has gone on record stating that when he was at what was called Morick Air Force Base, which is now Edwards Air Force Base, that they were there, they had equipment set up to take photographs of something, I've forgotten what it was, when they had a UFO land and they actually were able to photograph the UFO.
		And he said, again, the tennises were taken and they were debriefed.
		And as he said in his draw off to Washington, never to be seen again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So then you obviously are a believer in the government cover-up.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
		I would call it a cover-up, but I'm not sure that's the right reason.
		I wouldn't think it was more of a cover-up than keeping stealth and some of these other things secret.
		I think there's a number of reasons why something like that would be done.
		I mean, I think I explained that any object that penetrates our airspace without permission is automatically considered a congestional threat.
		And just normally, all the regulations that center around national security would center on that particular incident or incidence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Something I always wonder about, Ray, we have come a long way with stealth technology ourselves.
		I mean, that's the state of our art.
		And one has to imagine with a technology that would be greatly in advance of ours, you know, if they didn't want to be seen, we wouldn't be seeing them on radar or with our eyes, for that matter.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Now you have cases where you'll get a radar lock on and...
		Yeah, and then they change the radar frequency and it'll be there.
		As soon as the radar waves, you know, make contact with the object, gone.
		They change frequency again, it's there.
		That's documented.
		In fact, at one time he even got out on the local newspaper that had happened before it got to where it was supposed to go and then quelled.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm surely not an expert on stealth technology, but that capability is different, I think, is it not, Ray, than the normal stealth technology we have, which would be...
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		But, you know, a fellow I was talking to today, Barry Greenwood, I don't know if you ever talked to him before.
		He's probably got one of the largest civilian libraries on government documents and everything to do with UFOs.
		We were talking about stealth today, and he was saying that he had documents that go way back, oh, I think into the 60s, where the Air Force was trying to came up with the conclusion that a disc-shaped object would have very little visibility on radar.
		And that's when they were starting a joint project with Canada to build a disc-shaped object, the Avro Company.
		And the problem was that it was very unstable, and there was really no room to have a lot of fuel.
		I mean, you have airplanes, you've got these wings that fuel, and then you have the fuel tanks and so forth, but you have this disc-shaped thing.
		And it was very unstable.
		It only got a few feet off the ground.
		In fact, I've actually seen movies of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So a disc to be stable would require the kind of technology we've heard about that's very different than that which we have to propel one in normal aerodynamic flight.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		My own opinion is the flying discs, so-called, the flying thoughts, don't fly.
		They're the equivalent of what we would call a diving belt.
		What you have is that something, usually you don't have an object that comes down and goes from point A to B. You do at some point, sometimes, but most of these sightings you have, they come down, they go around a very, very local area, and it's like something pulls them up on a rubber band.
		It's almost like, and they come down in a falling leaf motion, almost like they didn't have any weight or mass, and then they just sucked right up.
		It's almost like they aren't aerodynamic.
		They just lower them down to do their thing and then take it up again.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, that's fascinating.
		All right, Gray, we're at the bottom of the hour, and I'm going to ID the station, and then perhaps we'll take a few calls if you're up for it.
		All right, stay right there.
		Ray Fowler is my guest.
unidentified		This is Area 2000.
		From Jackie Gonzalez downtown.
		This is KDWN, Las Vegas.
		Good evening from Las Vegas.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're listening to Area 2000 on the top of the West, KDWN Radio.
		All right, here it is.
		The phones are going open in the metropolitan area of Las Vegas.
		You can reach us at 383-8255-8255.
		If you're calling from outside the state, toll-free, it's 1-800-338-8255.
		1-800-338-8255.
		The wildcard lines are area code direct aisle.
		In other words, area code 702-385-7214-7214.
		And then finally, if you have never called the program at all, feel free to use the first time caller line at area code 702-385-7213-7213.
		And Ray Faller, are you still there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Let's experiment with the great unknown for a moment and go to the lines.
		Good evening on our first time caller line.
		You're on the air with Ray Faller.
unidentified		Hello there.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you're on the air, sir.
unidentified		Oh, yes, I'd like to ask you, I read your book on Walkers, Watchers, actually, and I wanted to know, you said these craft to go through space-time.
unidentified		I've actually that they could okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He gave up.
		He got nervous, Ray, and gave up.
		Okay.
		Wildcard Line 3, you're on here in Las Vegas with Ray Teller in Massachusetts.
		Good evening.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Turn your radio off, sir.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Off, and then give us some idea of where you're calling from.
unidentified		I'm calling from Santa Cruz, California.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Santa Cruz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, go ahead.
unidentified		And I just wanted to mention something about my son's stuff my dad told me when he was in the Air Force.
		All right.
		Go ahead.
		Are we live?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, we're live.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, please.
unidentified		Yeah, my father was in the Air Force for 23 years.
		And he told me he was in the missiles.
		And I guess he started, I don't know what exactly happened, but within the last couple of years, he was sick in the retirement home, and he was telling me all kinds of stories about some stuff they were doing down in Dreamland, working with some weird flying equipment, I guess they recovered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that does present a good opportunity.
		Thank you, Caller from Santa Cruz.
		Ray, I had my own sighting.
		I live in the Perump Valley, which is about 65 miles west of here, and just about a valley or so over from what they call Dreamland.
		And in all my life, Ray, I've never seen a thing until just a couple of months, a few months ago.
		And I saw this incredibly large triangular craft, totally black, floating, not flying, and I know the difference, just about 150 feet above me.
		Didn't make a sound, utterly silent.
		And I wonder what you can tell us about what's going on at Greenland, if you know of anything at that, and whether or not a lot of these crafts that are sighted may not be the kind of craft that you're talking about, but something we are doing.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure we're doing a lot there.
		The belt was flying a lot longer than they were willing to admit.
		And I'm sure there are a lot of other things flying there.
		I think the rumors that we have retrieved crash saucers there, for want of a better term, than that we have somehow flying them is strictly a rumor, no matter what Bob Lazar and William Cooper and Jim Leah might want us to believe.
		I think that we need a lot more evidence.
		I think when you have an experimental test range and you have state-of-the-art equipment being tested there, it's going to look very, very unusual.
		And very rarely, in fact, unless there was an accident, you just don't fly experimental aircraft out of a test range.
		You see, you know, if it crashed, the security aspect would be horrendous.
		So I don't think that we're dealing with extraterrestrials out there.
		The triangular craft is very interesting because we've had reports of that in this area.
		We just had one reported a couple of weeks ago in Vermont, flying at three-part levels, making no noise.
		And then Belgium, you know, a couple of years ago they got lots of reports of these things.
		But again, what you saw, you know, doesn't sound like something that we could do.
		Maybe it is.
		I have no answer to that question, except that I'm sure that there's been an awful lot of exotic things going on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you this, Ray.
		I had never even heard of a triangular craft until I had my sighting.
		I went on the radio on my syndicated program, and I told the story quite extensively, and all of a sudden my fax machine lit up, and I have never seen so many triangular craft in my whole life, so there...
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		In fact, Boomerang-shaped craft as well.
		Upperstate New York back in the late 80s.
		There are thousands of sightings in upper state New York.
		Dr. Hynek and Philip Mbrognu wrote a book about it.
		There were so many of them.
		And the interesting thing is that news of what was going on there, and these things were hovering over reservoirs, atomic plants, and houses, and moving without any noise at all.
		Some people describe them almost as big as a football field, very similar to what happened in Belgium.
		The interesting thing is that usually the news about these things were just confined to the local newspapers and the local TV stations.
		And this seems to be true about the UFO subject in general.
		You know, in the old days, if you had something like that happen, the Associated Press and UPI would pick it up and it'd be in the newspapers.
		But what I find now is unless you subscribe to a news service that looks into all of these local sightings all over the United States, you wouldn't think that UFO has existed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you may find this of some interest.
		About the week or two weeks after the sighting I had, a most unusual story appeared in my little Perump Valley Times, which I still have.
		Somebody gave me.
		And I'll just read from it for a second.
		The low-flying aircraft over Perump late last week, and again, Sunday night, which is when I saw it, were probably part of a classified training exercise, according to a spokesman from Nellis.
		A number of Perump residents were talking about a big aircraft that passed over their homes last week.
		And judging by the areas that people live in, it appears the C-130 circled most of the valley and buzzed some homes several times.
		So it was a classified mission, and they're trying to sell us on the fact that it was a C-130.
		I was never so insulted in all of my life.
		I've flown on C-130s, and I guarantee this was no C-130.
		They could have tried to sell a lot of things, but a C-130, frankly, I found to be insulting.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		They have done this over and over again in the Blue Book days, incredible explanations like that.
		Now, whether they're trying to cover for an experimental aircraft or they're trying to cover a UFO, which they most likely knew was there because of the radar installations they have there, I don't know.
		But this is typical of the old Blue Book days.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating.
		Wildcard Line 3, good evening.
		You're on the air with Ray Fowler in Massachusetts.
unidentified		Oh, good evening, Art, and Mr. Ray Fowler.
		Good evening.
		You know, as far as I'm live noisy in here, and I live up here in Blurt in Northeast California, and they've been sending B-52s art over our region, I guess, over that scrapyard in Arizona.
		Anyway, I'll get quick to the point.
		I've been hearing a lot about these missing children, and a lot of them can't be found.
		I was just kind of wondering if Ray knew that has any information about maybe, are they being abducted or what's the situation of a lot of these children that can't be found?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Listen off the air.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, it's a good question.
		There are a lot of missing children.
		Ray, some of them are coming to no good because of foul play right here on Earth.
		I wonder how many of them might be meeting some other fate.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I haven't the slightest idea.
		I think that's in the realm of speculation.
		And until you had some eyewitness reports of a child being taken by a strange object or a beam of light or something like that and not returned, I would say that this most likely has to do with human abductions.
		And depending upon the age of the child, you have a lot of runaways, for example, as well as abductions.
		I mean, this horrible thing that happened in California recently where someone actually came into a house and took someone out of the house.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Things are going on like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The man alleged to have done that has now been officially charged with a crime.
		Ray, there is a space mission, a very complex one, underway right now.
		And the reason I bring it up is because I've been watching the spacewalks, which are fascinating.
		And one would have to imagine that if they were here, they would take particular interest in anything taking us off our own planet.
		And I wonder if you've heard anything about that.
		The astronauts, what have they seen, officially or unofficially?
		What do you think is going on there?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, astronaut General McDevitt saw a cylindrical UFO with a pole sticking out of it back in Gemini 4.
		Gordon Cooper stated at a United Nations meeting that we were trying to get the United Nations to get involved in UFO research, stated that there were NASA officials that had encounters with UFOs.
		A very respectable professor was sharing the same program, a podium with one of the astronauts, and I won't mention names, but was talking to the astronaut, and the astronaut said that they see them practically every mission.
		He says, but if you quote me, I'll deny it.
		Yeah, and that's hey.
		I trust the person who tells me that he talks to the astronaut personally.
		I think this is going on.
		Gordon Cooper, I was told by one fellow of a man that I was not a player, and I don't think that he was very well liked by some people because of the statements he was making.
		In fact, when he was in the Air Force back in 1951, for two days, he was the leader of a fighter squadron, and they chased UFOs that were coming over the base, and they were just above the operating capability of the F-86s that they had.
		But they were round, metallic.
		They were making right-angle turns.
		Whatever they were, they were under intelligence control, and they were made of a metallic material.
		But it seems that most likely the astronauts, as well as any military person, even an airline pilot, I don't know if you're even aware of this, but it also applies to commercial areas.
		And once a commercial airline pilot makes what they call the equivalent caves report, anything that might be important to national security, but you have both one of the things on the left.
		If they devoured the content of the equivalent of a military caves report, they had subject to 10 years of GLS 1,000 mine results.
		In 1954, this was imposed upon all the major airline carriers, and 400, over 400, I think it was 450 pilots, protested and signed a petition against it, but it didn't do any good.
		Well, I can see why the military wants the information from the pilots.
		It's a shame, though, that they're being civilians aren't allowed to talk about it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Another aspect of this, Ray, would be something that's not talked about a lot, and that is we have a gigantic series of KH satellites and Landsats and other satellites that are capable of looking down on Earth.
		And one would imagine that if there were things flying about, there would have been significant evidence gathered from that.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure that there are.
		I talked to an Air Force colonel, for example, that was working with me recently, when I was at CCP, seasonally good job, and he was the commander of one of the optical trackers.
		Huge telescope, and they would be tracking things in orbit, things that are known and things that are unknown, and giving the admin elevation right attention declination of whatever they used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Defense Commander and now spacecraft.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		He claimed that there were things coming into orbit and out of orbit.
unidentified		And he started asking questions about this.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		He was just told to mind his own business, that there was a blue ribbon panel looking into this, and that his job was just to send the data in.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, there's an awful lot of people that want to talk to you, so let's check it in here.
		Good morning, Line 3.
		You're on the air with Ray Fowler.
unidentified		This is Whitman Watanswite.
		Thanks again to the Bigelow Foundation for that most outstanding educational program.
		I want to say to Ray that this book definitely has changed the rules.
		He has the advantage over most of the UFO researcher and scientists because he has the metaphysical background, the knowing, I would say, the cosmic ABC.
		Ray, you also pointed out in your book, the acceleration of UFO's activity is directly related to man's increasing inhumanity to man.
		Can you tell us about the coming events?
		The planet must change as a faith because of man's ignorance.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thanks, Fritz.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What about our behavior down here connected to the...
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I think maybe he read some of his own ideas into what we indicated in the first place that according to what they told Betty, that because of what we were doing to write on a solution of the problem of smoke over comic rates and things like that,
		but they didn't go into any detail, that man was going to become a hero, and therefore they were questioning Herm and Omar, not only from man, but also from a variety of life forms on Earth.
		But they never indicated anything about man's humanity to man or to her, nor did they imagine anything spectacular coming in any detail.
		They indicated that something was going to happen, but they didn't say what.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There are a lot of people these days, Ray, with the feeling that something is imminent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you get those vibrations as well?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I do from the abductees.
		But again, I think you've got to be very, very careful.
		I think because of the state that the world is in right now, that people are probably looking for something from the outside to help feeling that he ourselves are helpless to do anything about our situation.
		Therefore, something had to come from the outside.
		So you've got that mentality, that mindset, and then you've got the abductees, and you wonder whether that, you know, where you draw the line between what the abductees are allegedly told or whether they're part of the same mindset in hoping that whatever this is that happened to them, it's going to be helpful.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Sure.
		I understand.
		Good evening.
		On our first time caller line, you're on the air with Ray Fowler.
		Where are you coming from, please?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Henderson.
unidentified		Okay, go ahead, sir.
unidentified		I'm thoroughly convinced that this probe into Mars that they lost recently.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the Explorer.
unidentified		Well, I'm convinced that that was a big cover-up.
		I think they know where it's at, and they evidently shut it off or something.
		I would just like to have your thoughts on that, and I'll listen up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, thank you.
		What about the Mars Explorer, Ray?
		There are a lot of theories firing around out there about it, that there was a lot on Mars they didn't want us to see, and so they shut it off.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		What do you feel about that?
unidentified		I have no opinion.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I've read articles by people who feel that that's so, but again, that may be wishful thinking on their part.
		You have the so-called face on Mars enthusiast.
		You may indeed have some artifacts up there.
		We really don't know until we get there.
		It seems that there has been, not only with the United States probes to Mars, but Russia's Phobos 1 and Phobos II, they've had serious problems.
		And if you can believe what came out of Russia from an astronaut, that Phobos 2 actually photographed a cylindrical object approaching it prior to its going off the air.
		If you can believe things like that, if that really happened, then maybe there are some things going on up there that we don't know about.
		You look back at some of the news clippings concerning what the NASA used to call the galactic ghoul, where very strange things would happen to our satellites in the early days, especially.
		They would go off the air and are transmitted and then come back on like something had repaired them or something.
		Now, all of this stuff is speculation.
		These things happen.
		You don't know the answer.
		I think it's very unscientific to come to any specific conclusion of why they're happening.
		Most likely, the most probable thing is that we had problems with last month's coke and not saying it's possible that they shut it off and so forth.
		But right now, that's just sheer speculation, and there may be wishful thinking on some people's parts.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, there may be a lot of wishful thinking involved in this entire area.
unidentified		And I hope it sometimes benefits us to separate from reality on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Our first time caller line.
unidentified		Good evening.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're on air with Ray Pollard.
unidentified		You're too good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's try again.
unidentified		Okay, here we go.
		I wrote it down to Sounds a little bit better.
		I've read your books, The Watchers, and the book you talked about men becoming sterile, and the aliens could see the future but do little about it, about changing it.
		Also, the aliens were showing abductees, the films about Earth being destroyed, possibly.
		I'd like to know is, do you think the aliens could possibly be from the future, possibly?
		Now that they need help, they're coming back for reproductive things, and they're taking the hybrids to the future.
		It sounds kind of wild, but.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, not that wild.
		Thank you.
		You did very well there.
		You finally got it together.
		That's kind of what we've been talking about, isn't it, Ray?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I had to talk about time travel with Dr. Michael Swords, who you might want to get on sometime.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We've already had him on.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		He has hypothesized that they may be from our future.
		They may be us from our future.
		And coming back to get some genetic material.
		But again, you know, there are a lot of answers, possible speculative answers that you can give, but you can't really prove any.
		All you can say is that there is a phenomenon going on, and if you accept it face value, what's going on, that they're very interested in reproductive systems and reproductive material.
		I guess that's as far as anybody can go.
		Then you can start speculating why.
		And it all depends on how much you take at face value that the abductees tell you as well.
		So, you know, as an investigator, a reporter, one can only, you know, record what has allegedly happened and maybe do some speculating, but really, you know, not coming to any specific provable conclusion.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, at least you're holding a nice open mind about all this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And I think that's to be applauded because I'm desperately afraid that a lot of the rest of the UFO community for years and years, concentrating on a very narrow area of physical evidence, may have missed something very important.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I think it's the same thing with medical doctors for years ignored the near-death experience because they had been trained that things like that just don't happen.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		They must be hallucinatory.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just as doctors ignore alternative treatments that many times are very effective.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		But now you have medical doctors writing books on NDEs.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		You know, it's got out of the grassroots interest and into the medical profession.
		I think the same thing is happening with the abduction experience.
		It's getting into the area of health professionals.
		Or look at Dr. Mac at Harvard University.
		Who have ever thought that the professor of psychiatry at Harvard University would become an abduction researcher?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Precisely.
		All right, short on time.
		Welcome.
		Good evening from Jackie Gaunt's Plaza Hotel.
		You're on the air with Ray Fowler.
		Where are you calling from, please?
		San Diego.
		San Diego.
		Go ahead.
unidentified		Well, what can you tell us about Area 51?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Nothing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		He can tell you nothing.
		And if he did know something with the security clearances he had, he could probably not tell you.
		Thank you.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		I don't know anything about it, even with the security clearances, except for the rumors that come out of there, and I consider the rumors until I see something more substantial.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Wildcard line three, good evening.
		You're on the air with Ray Fowler.
unidentified		I'm calling from Reno.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Reno, Nevada, yes.
unidentified		Ray?
		Have the aliens told anybody anything telling or profound other than just directions to lay on the table and remember anything?
		Have they communicated anything?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's a good question.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What have they said, Ray?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, it may reflect the personality or belief system of the individuals.
		For example, Betty Andreas has indicated on several occasions that they equate themselves with the origin of the part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition.
		But, you know, that you can't prove something like that.
		And as I mentioned before, when you have something like this happen, not only with Betty or someone else, you have three alternatives.
		You can say that the individual is superimposing their own religious belief system over the phenomenon.
		You can say the phenomenon knows about the belief system of the individual and is using it as part of their control system.
		Or you can say that, yeah, they are part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition and the aerial phenomena reported in the Bible, allegedly, and so forth.
		I don't know.
		When people ask that question about these profound things coming out, those are the profound things that are coming out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's fairly profound, actually.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		It's very profound.
		And as I mentioned at the MIT conference afterwards, a bunch of the experts got together and they said, well, when things like that come out, that's a danger.
		We don't want to talk about this.
		We ignore this stuff and get on with the real work, yes.
		So you've got to take everything into consideration, and you might not believe it to be so, which you at least included as part of your baseline.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		Line two, good evening.
		You're on the air with Ray Fowler.
unidentified		Hello.
		Hello.
		I was sleeping about three or four years ago.
		I woke up, I just turned and looked down and looked down and back.
		Swept out in bed, still asleep.
		I was literally sitting there beside myself, watching myself sleeping.
		Then the wall in front of me lit up and turned an intense bright light.
		And then some plateau images, plateau images appeared in this world of bright light.
		And the images, they seem to be symbolic or symbols of events or things that happened during the course of my life.
		But I was so freaked out about what happened and what I was looking at.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Colin, I'm curious, how did you end up with that impression from the black holes that it was symbolic of events in your life?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Was this just a feeling or was it?
unidentified		They were like almost like pictures of there was one particular image that still stays with me because when I saw this, I couldn't sit there and look at it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, Caller, I'm terribly sorry.
		We're at the end of the program, and I'm going to have to go.
		Thank you very much for the call.
		Is that from what you heard, Ray?
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's similar to someone who has had a near-death experience and has their whole life flash before them.
		I mean, I think what he was going to say, he freaked out and somehow just popped back into his body again before he saw anything else.
		But I'm not sure exactly what he was going to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Well, I guess we're not going to be this week.
		Ray, it has been a pleasure.
		And there's just not enough time to explore these sorts of areas fully.
		You need hours more, maybe days or weeks.
		But the time is up.
		The clock is a clock, and I've got to go here.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		You can give a plug for the Allagash abductions by Walpole Pratts, Tiger, Oregon, sometime during your program.
ray fowler ▲ ● ▼		It'd be appreciated.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, you just did.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Ray Fowler, thanks a million.
unidentified		Take care.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And that's Area 2000.
		As I said, I'm really sorry that we don't have more time, but we don't.
		That's it.
		Thank you, folks.

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