Dec. 5, 1993 - Art Bell
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| Welcome to Area 2000. | ||
| This program introduces our listeners to the scientific approach to discussion of two particular subjects, UFOs and near-death and after-death experiences. | ||
| To contact the Bigelow Foundation during the work week, call Angela Thompson between 9 a.m. | ||
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and 5 p.m. | |
| at area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| That's Angela Thompson at area code 702-456-1606. | ||
| And now, Area 2000. | ||
| Good evening, everybody. | ||
| Welcome to Area 2000. | ||
| that's angela thompson at area code seven oh two four five six one six zero | ||
| six and now | ||
| area two thousand evening everybody welcome to area two thousand | ||
| i'm art bell and uh... you all have the bigelow foundation to thank you | ||
| as you know for this program | ||
| you And thank them, you should, when you get an opportunity, give them a call. | ||
| We'll get their number on the air during the course of the show. | ||
| All right, I think you're going to enjoy this evening's program. | ||
| My guest is going to be Ray Fowler. | ||
| But first, we're going all the way to Michigan, where we're going to find Linda Howe. | ||
| We'll have to find out what she's doing in the state of Michigan. | ||
| Good evening, Linda. | ||
| Hi, Art. | ||
| What in the world are you doing in Michigan? | ||
| Tonight I'm in Grass Lake, Michigan near Ann Arbor. | ||
| This weekend a seminar was held in which abduction investigators Bud Hopkins and Professor David Jacobs of Temple University, both of whom have been on Area 2000 in the past few months, talked with mental health professionals and teachers about the UFO abduction syndrome. | ||
| The seminars were provoked by the Robert Bigelow-sponsored Roper Survey in 1991, which focused on unusual personal experiences. | ||
| According to Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs, that survey indicated that perhaps 1 in 50, 1 in 5-0, Americans fall into the human abduction syndrome or aspects or characteristics which may indicate some kind of involvement with that syndrome. | ||
| If so, education about the phenomenon is important, especially in the mental health profession, and this was the sixth in a series of such seminars that have been held around the country. | ||
| And your guest tonight, Raymond Fowler, has been an important and longtime investigator in the abduction syndrome, doing the very important books about the Betty Andresen case, and I think this will be a very important program for listeners. | ||
| Because the human abduction syndrome is perhaps one of the most puzzling subjects right now in this entire phenomenon. | ||
| I've also visited the laboratory of Dr. W.C. | ||
| Leavengood, the biophysicist from the University of Michigan, who has worked so hard the past three years on analysis of plants from crop formations in the United States, Canada, Australia, and England. | ||
| One of his most important findings is a change in plant cells that indicate an intense energy has been applied to these plants in a very short period of time. | ||
| Only seconds compared to the two or three hours that known hoaxers have taken to create man-made formations. | ||
| I'd like to play an excerpt from a conversation that I recorded today with Dr. Levengood as he talked to me about evidence for rapid heating. | ||
| Over the three years I've been looking at these crop circles, there is a consistency to There is a consistency within the alterations of the plant cell, which indicates a very rapid heating. | ||
| Now, how do we know that that's a very rapid heating? | ||
| We know that because there are tiny anatomical structures in the cell of the plant called cell wall pits. | ||
| These cell wall pits As we found through our research, this didn't come about suddenly, but we found that when the cell is heated, it expands like a balloon. | ||
| And these cell wall pits expand on the surface just like there would be a spot, you blow up a balloon, there would be a spot on it, and they expand. | ||
| When the heating disappears, the cell goes back to its original state. | ||
| But the cell wall has properties, it's called viscoelastic properties. | ||
| This means that it's partially like a rubber band that's stretched. | ||
| It doesn't quite return to its original shape. | ||
| So when you would look under a microscope, let's say at a plant that came out of one of the formations | ||
| in England, you might find a change in just, if it may be more oval, | ||
| then a plant that wasn't affected by some energy is yet unknown. | ||
| That's right. | ||
| The pits are measured and we make a statistical analysis. | ||
| We measure a lot of pits on normal plants or what we call controlled. | ||
| And we measure a lot of pits from the crop formation. | ||
| And you can say, well, how do you know the heating is rapid? | ||
| Well, what we found is if the heating is continued, we can duplicate this in a microwave. | ||
| But only if it's heated very briefly in a microwave. | ||
| And this is like an ordinary microwave in your kitchen, where the heat is created internally in the plant cell very rapidly. | ||
| If that heating continues beyond a few seconds, then the cell expands, | ||
| but then it begins to collapse, and the total, the average size of these cell wall pits ends up smaller. | ||
| And it would cook the plant, wouldn't it? | ||
| And it would cook the plant, right. | ||
| Now that seems to me to be one of the fundamental points that the general public has not understood. | ||
| Whatever is happening in the cross circle, it's some kind of an energy | ||
| from a biophysical, biochemical point of view, but whatever it is is rapidly enough that it's not cooking | ||
| the plant, because these plants continue to grow. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| Anything that's heated this fast, and with this amount of energy, would indeed, with time, cook the plants up. | ||
| It would kill them. | ||
| And we never find that, in fact, the plant goes right on growing. | ||
| And, in one of the Hope Circles last year, the people who made it said it took them two hours to make one of the formations. | ||
| Yeah, that's right. | ||
| You could never... | ||
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You apply that kind of energy, you know, it wouldn't... You'd have nothing left to do. | |
| That's right, absolutely. | ||
| Now, the other, you know, the other factor which sort of puts the icing on the cake, actually not just the grass, you know, is a factor that we received about two weeks ago. | ||
| This was from a grass formation that a lady found in England in a field beside her house of grass. | ||
| There was a ring about 18 inches wide and about 70 feet in diameter of downed grass. | ||
| Then inside this ring was a Y formation, also a perfect Y, and every line where the Y crossed the ring, | ||
| the Y also was about 18 inches wide and extended across this ring. | ||
| Wherever the arms of the Y lapped over the ring, the plants were dead black. | ||
| But only in these crossing places. | ||
| On the carbon surface. | ||
| Yeah, right. | ||
| We had no idea what this was when it was sent into the lab, but as examination continued, we eliminated various things | ||
| like mold and fungi and so on. | ||
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And the one thing that was left was carbon black. | |
| Now this was verified as being exactly that by two different laboratories. | ||
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And carbon black would only come about by heat? | |
| By heat of a special kind. | ||
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I'll get to that in a second. | |
| This layer was very puzzling because you could rub the leaf of the plant, the black would come off on your fingers, very typical of carbon black, And underneath the cells of the plant, although they were dead, they were not burned, they were not particularly injured. | ||
| And they looked the same as those outside this intersection area. | ||
| This was an extremely thin layer. | ||
| So the big problem is here, where could this carbon come from? | ||
| Well, it finally dawned on us that this was not coming from anywhere. | ||
| It was coming, it was right on the plant itself. | ||
| It was a very, very superficial layer, and it consisted of all plants, house plants, if you look at their leaves, they tend to be shiny. | ||
| This is due to what's known as a subarized layer. | ||
| This is a hydrocarbon substance. | ||
| Like a waxy coating on leaves. | ||
| Like a waxy coating, exactly. | ||
| That is a subarized layer. | ||
| That's just a hard hydrocarbon wax. | ||
| And what was happening here is this energy, this heat energy, was so rapid, and it also was of a special, it's called a reducing atmosphere, as opposed to the normal oxidizing atmosphere when you burn wood in your fireplace. | ||
| It literally reduced, in a very rapid way, this paraffin to pure carbon. | ||
| Leaving the under structure of the plant essentially normal. | ||
| So this was another factor that showed that there was a very obvious rapid heating. | ||
| And art. | ||
| Dr. Levengood is now studying soil samples and plant samples from people in Michigan | ||
| and other parts of the country where they have had either rings or circles in their | ||
| backyards or front yards seemingly associated with what we now call the human abduction | ||
| syndrome. | ||
| And what is interesting is that in that soil, that in some cases in the abduction syndrome | ||
| appears to be hardened or baked or dead, he has found that when some of the plants from | ||
| these rings and circles in the yards of abductees are planted, they grow at an accelerated rate | ||
| exactly as he has found from plants sampled in these various countries that he has studied | ||
| the last three years. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Do you find yourself now drawn more to the abduction aspect than you have been, Linda? | ||
| I think it has been equally interwoven in my own investigation and work since I did A Strange Harvest back in 1980 because of the Judy Doherty case. | ||
| I had not been aware of the whole abduction syndrome until I started working on A Strange Harvest and that is what led me to the Judy Doherty and Cindy Tyndall case and that was the mother and daughter who had been traveling with their family in Houston, Texas in May of 1973 and it was an incident where five people in a car apparently all lose time All at the same time but no one has any conscious memory of what happened during that event and that's something that Ray Fowler probably tonight could go into. | ||
| The whole issue of there are multiple witnesses and there are cases of where there are people in a car that seem to be simultaneously affected by amnesia. | ||
| It's part of this manipulation of our minds that we don't understand very well. | ||
| Has there been any hypnosis done in that case yet? | ||
| Yes. | ||
| When I did A Strange Harvest, I worked with Dr. Leo Sprinkle, who was then head of counseling and testing at the University of Wyoming, with Judy, who was the mother, and that case came about in one of the ways that researchers often receive cases. | ||
| She had been suffering very severe headaches, and she had been having nightmares, but she had no conscious memory of any event that related necessarily to these headaches and the nightmares. | ||
| She sought out a medical doctor for treatment of her headaches, and it was the medical doctor that suggested that perhaps this was related to some sort of psychological trauma. | ||
| That led to eventually hypnosis, and in the hypnosis, she could see a beam of light that had an animal going up in it, but she could not clearly see what the animal was in that first hypnosis session. | ||
| Later, while I was working on A Strange Harvest, that case became known to a group in Arizona, Uh, that we're also working on, uh, the entire UFO phenomenon and all its complicated facets. | ||
| Uh, they, uh, got me in touch with her and eventually we did the, uh, hypnosis session in which she broke through her amnesia completely and saw a brown and white calf going up in this beam of light. | ||
| Ten years later, her daughter, who had been a teenager in 73, and had rejected everything about that night, had rejected her Her mother's claim that there was something unusual finally sought out help herself. | ||
| And in her own independent adventures with John Carpenter in Missouri, she also saw a brown and white calf going up in a pale beam of yellow light into yet an unidentified object in the sky. | ||
| And that's how, throughout my entire research of mutilations, I came into the human abduction syndrome. | ||
| Boy, this multiple witness business is particularly interesting, isn't it? | ||
| Yes, because you have at least some kind of verification, and in their case, the mother never talked with the daughter, and in fact, the family have stories about how the daughter never wanted to hear anything about what her mother or anybody would have to say, no matter what. | ||
| So you had a resistance to the entire idea of UFOs or anything else. | ||
| Perhaps some sort of psychological protective mechanism. | ||
| Yeah, the daughter was extremely resistant in avoidance of the subject, And then eventually, which does happen sometimes, and Ray probably has cases himself, where something, whether it's in dreams or some other way, people are nagged by something, and eventually, as Cindy got older, something bothered her, and she eventually went into hypnosis and out came a very, very similar story. | ||
| Well, I sure do thank you for all of this, Linda. | ||
| Fascinating stuff. | ||
| And to know that there's There's a circle in a yard in Michigan right now that soil and plant samples are being studied by a biophysicist who absolutely did not, three years ago, think that he was dealing with anything but meteorology. | ||
| Yeah, next Sunday. | ||
| Linda, are you going to be back in Philadelphia next week? | ||
| Yeah, next Sunday. | ||
| All right. | ||
| We'll look for you and your report then. | ||
| Thank you, and my best to Ray Fowler. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| And Ray Fowler, indeed, coming right up. | ||
| Raymond E. Fowler was born in Salem, Massachusetts and received a BA. | ||
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degree from Gordon College of Liberal Arts. | |
| His priority was service with the U.S.A.F. | ||
| Security Service and with G.T.E. | ||
| Strategic Systems Division. | ||
| He retired early as a task manager and senior planner involved with major weapons systems development. | ||
| He is, uh... He is, uh, quite a contributor to ufology. | ||
| He's respected by UFO researchers throughout the world. | ||
| His investigative reports have been published in congressional hearings, military publications, newspapers, magazines, and professional journals in the USA and abroad. | ||
| The USAF UFO Project's Chief Scientific Consultant, Dr. J. Allen Hynek, has called Raymond Fowler, quote, an outstanding UFO investigator. | ||
| I know of none who is more dedicated, trustworthy, or persevering. | ||
| Ray currently serves as National Director of Investigations on the Board of Directors for the Mutual UFO Network, an international group investigating UFOs. | ||
| He has appeared on over 200 radio and television shows around the United States since 1963. | ||
| He is a three times published author. | ||
| He is director of his own planetarium and observatory. | ||
| And a very popular speaker. | ||
| And this morning, or this evening rather, he will speak with you. | ||
| Here, all the way from Massachusetts, is Ray Fowler. | ||
| Good evening, Ray. | ||
| Are you there? | ||
| Yes, I am. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| Excellent. | ||
| Oh, I don't know about excellent. | ||
| Now our telephone connection seems to be a little bit noisy. | ||
| Maybe it's on my end. | ||
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I can try a different channel if you'd like to hold for a second. | |
| Let's try it. | ||
| Let's switch and see if we can clean it up. | ||
| Or on the other hand, it may just be in the line itself. | ||
| We have quite a long connection here. | ||
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Is that better? | |
| As a matter of fact, it is. | ||
| Here we go again a little bit. | ||
| A little better. | ||
| Leave it alone, I guess. | ||
| Okay, well, we'll see if it clears up. | ||
| If it doesn't, at some point, I'll simply redial the number and we'll reconnect. | ||
| Ray, welcome to the program. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| I take it that you heard Linda's report. | ||
| Yes, I did. | ||
| Very, very interesting. | ||
| I had heard about his work before, but it was nice to hear him personally describe it. | ||
| You have been an investigator for Move On for how long, Ray? | ||
| Oh, I started out as a state director for the state of Massachusetts probably back in the 70s. | ||
| After I got out of NICAT, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena. | ||
| So it's been quite a long time, probably since 1970. | ||
| Alright, you must run into all kinds of fascinating stuff. | ||
| Tell us a little bit about MUFON, if you would, and what exactly do you do? | ||
| Do you go running about to different parts of the country or the world investigating some of these cases, or how do you pursue it? | ||
| Well, when I was the State Director for Massachusetts, for UFON and for NACAP, I did a lot of on-site investigations, hundreds of them. | ||
| When I was made Director of Investigations from UFON, I really didn't do too many of the on-site investigations of just regular reports. | ||
| I was more involved with abduction reports and also in putting together a field investigator's manual from UFON. | ||
| Keeping that up to date, And receiving telephone calls from people all over the country who had had UFO experiences and then my duty was really to refer them to the state directors from UConn for investigation. | ||
| So instead of doing an awful lot of on-site investigations now, I refer a lot of cases and I pick a few cases that I'm very interested in and give them the FBI treatment, maybe spend two or three years investigating just one report rather than Just an on-site investigation of a regular UFO report. | ||
| I'm spending more time on the abduction phenomenon. | ||
| Right now I'm concentrating on a facet of the abduction phenomenon that I think deserves further study, and that's the paraphysical nature of some of these abduction reports. | ||
| The one that Linda just mentioned, for example, the Judy Doherty case, is fascinating because it involved an out-of-the-body experience. | ||
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As, as well as a physical abduction. | |
| And in my correspondence with, uh, oh, I must have gotten around 4,000 letters, uh, in response to the watchers. | ||
| And, uh, personal contacts, I find that a certain percentage of the abduction reports involve, uh, OBEs. | ||
| And, uh, being a nuts and bolts person for so many, many years, uh, I sort of ignored things like this, and a lot of other investigators are too. | ||
| Right now I'm concentrating on that facet of the abduction phenomenon. | ||
| It's fascinating and I think that It should be given the FBI treatment as well, and I'm trying to do that right now. | ||
| I talked to a lot of serious investigators, Ray, and many of them now seem to feel that the abduction aspect of the whole UFO controversy is the best path to follow in trying to prove something or trying to finally put our hands on some real evidence. | ||
| Would you share that view? | ||
| Yes, I would. | ||
| Another thing I'm very interested in is the physical marks Left on abductees. | ||
| I'm collecting dozens of photographs of scoop marks in exactly the same location. | ||
| In fact, if you lay these out on the table, many of them you would think were on the same person, in the same place, the same size. | ||
| They may vary a little bit. | ||
| I think this is one aspect that has to be looked at, too. | ||
| Where are these marks generally on the body? | ||
| Well, usually Not always. | ||
| Usually they're on the leg over the tibia or shin bone. | ||
| Another place it would be on the arm or on the spinal column. | ||
| Sometimes on the back and forehead. | ||
| But the most common one that I'm finding is just over the shin bone. | ||
| Are these marks, when you see them, always in a healed condition, or are some of them that are more recent actually not healed all the way, or what do you find? | ||
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Most of the ones I've seen are healed. | |
| If you've read The Watchers and know about some of the things I reported from my own personal life, when I went to the dermatologist, he said it was in the process of healing. | ||
| But I haven't been able to get to anybody where Except Jack Weiner and his seems to be healing as well. | ||
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He was one of the Elegash abduction abductees. | |
| I have never been able to get to someone other than myself the next day to see, you know, what it looks like. | ||
| Usually you get these reports, oh, months or years after they happen. | ||
| Most people don't even know what these things are. | ||
| They'll have a close encounter UFO sighting and they'll have flashbacks or dreams. | ||
| Uh, of an abduction experience, and finally, a certain percentage of them, uh, get involved with the UFO investigator, and, uh, lo and behold, they look at that scoop mark, and they say, wow, you know, this is a benchmark of the abduction phenomenon, and ask them, you know, when did they get that, and if they remember, it usually coincides with, uh, a, uh, UFO experience. | ||
| How many people, do you suppose, and this is speculative I guess, have had these abduction experiences and what percentage of them seem to recall it? | ||
| I know that the Bigelow Foundation did a big study on it indicating as many as 1 in 50. | ||
| Would you think that to be credible? | ||
| I would say that 1 in 50 have exhibited the typical benchmarks or characteristics of an abduction experience but that doesn't Perhaps qualify them as an abductee because there may be some other phenomena that are involved that coincides with the abduction phenomenon. | ||
| I would say that probably a high percentage of that 1 in 50 may have had an abduction experience. | ||
| But there's no real way of telling. | ||
| I think this is the first step, a statistical study like this, and I think it must be refined I think that these people, or a certain percentage of these people, should be chosen and investigated further, and then a percentage maybe come out of that. | ||
| All right, Ray, hold on just one sec while I ID the station, and we'll be right back. | ||
| This is Area 2000. | ||
| I'm Art Bell. | ||
| It's Sunday evening. | ||
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Good evening. From Jackie Gons Plaza downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas. Good evening everybody. | |
| This is Area 2000. | ||
| My guest is Ray Fowler, all the way from the state of Massachusetts. | ||
| And we're talking about abductions this evening. | ||
| Ray, are you still there? | ||
| I sure am. | ||
| Good. | ||
| What in the world, I'm going to backtrack a little bit now, got you interested in this whole field of work? | ||
| I mean, how did you come to it? | ||
| I was interested in experimental aircraft and space travel as a teenager back in the mid-forties, and when flying discs appeared in headlines all over the country, and the Air Force immediately took an interest, I took an interest as well, and as a teenager just began collecting information on the subject. | ||
| And then on July 4th, 1947, had my own daylight disc sighting, and when I was working on a farm in broad daylight, I saw this A disk-shaped object, which I thought was a parachute, at first drifting along, and as it got closer I saw that there was no person and no shroud lines, and it descended in a falling-leaf motion. | ||
| So that really piqued my interest. | ||
| In fact, the newspaper that a few days afterwards, that was on a Saturday, the Monday newspaper, the local one, had banner headlines of the disk seen in the area. | ||
| I think when it became apparent that the disks were not experimental aircraft and that our government and other governments launched investigations, I became extremely interested. | ||
| During my tour with the Air Force Security Service, I came across various people who had been directly involved with the UFO study and it was being taken very seriously. | ||
| So when I got out, I began to perform on-site investigations myself and sent unsolicited reports to Project Blue Book and to NICAP and then NICAP, the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena at that time sent their state director Walter Webb who was assistant director of Hayden Planetarium in Boston to see me and sort of took me on as an on-the-job trainee investigator and from there I became state director and then became involved with the University of Colorado Air Force sponsored study and | ||
| With Dr. J.L. | ||
| Hynek sent a few UFO studies from UFON, so it's been sort of an evolution. | ||
| It sounds as though, if I had to guess, that your own sighting did it for you. | ||
| Yes, and when I look back in retrospect, and after I did the Andreasen Affair investigation, some other abduction reports, and recognized what had happened in my early childhood, also might have been involved with these experiences, I think that perhaps my interest might have been subconsciously influenced by that. | ||
| That's just sheer speculation on my part. | ||
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But there has been a burning interest as soon as they appeared in the 1947 wave. | |
| Can you tell us about the Andresen case? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| There was sort of a lull in activity in Massachusetts. | ||
| No one had really looked into an abduction report locally here, and we contacted Dr. Heineck and asked him if there was anybody in Massachusetts that had reported an abduction experience, and he sent a copy of a letter that came from Betty Andreassen, who lived in South Ashburn, Massachusetts, and she was a very religious person, a fundamentalist Christian, and She interpreted her experience as being religious, but when you lifted that out of the experience, it was a typical abduction experience. | ||
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The same type of entities and so forth enter the house. | |
| All she could remember was them entering the house. | ||
| I'm a little curious. | ||
| In what way did she connect it to her religious faith? | ||
| What did she feel had occurred to her? | ||
| She felt that because these things could come through the door and do the things they did, That she was involved with angels, and so we decided to give it the FBI treatment. | ||
| I did a real rugged character reference check on her, for example, and decided that she was a sane person. | ||
| And we conducted a couple of years of hypnotic regression sessions, and for the Andrea's N'Affair Phase 1 investigation, actually it's been 3, and I'm on a 4th now, And she relived being taken out of the house. | ||
| Her family were left behind with one entity. | ||
| They were put in sort of a state of suspended animation except for her daughter. | ||
| Once in a while the entity would let her out of this state. | ||
| But she was taken and given a physical examination and a lot of strange things happened to her and then returned to the house. | ||
| And we thought that was the end of it. | ||
| While she was on the operating table they took something out of her nose and we tried to find out how that got in there at that time but she became so emotionally upset that the hypnotist didn't want to push it any further so it wasn't until later on when she was available again she had moved to Florida that we did a phase two investigation and found out that something had been her eye had been taken out and something had been put She must be a very patient lady to go through these years of research. | ||
| soon behind the i may be and that's probably how that got in there they were taking | ||
| it out that way uh... it | ||
| it's been a look along investigation uh... i'm doing the phase four | ||
| investigation now that business a wealth of detail not only with betty | ||
| but with members of her family it seems as if the family phenomenon she must be a very | ||
| patient lady to go through these years of research | ||
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he feels and uh... | |
| uh... that uh... she's supposed to be doing that uh... they told her that she was supposed to be doing this | ||
| if you accepted at face value and uh... | ||
| uh... so she is uh... very willing but uh... sometimes i feel | ||
| very badly for her when she's reliving some of these experiences | ||
| what what kind of detail did she give you about the beings that had taken her | ||
| for watching. | ||
| Well, the beings that had taken her initially were probably about four or four and a half feet tall, with a head shape much like an inverted pear, with large mongoloid eyes, a diminutive nose, slit for a mouth, and holes for ears, maybe a tiny earlobe. | ||
| They communicated by telepathy. | ||
| They didn't walk. | ||
| They floated, almost like a skater, you know, along just above the floor or above the ground. | ||
| Make right angle turns. | ||
| Uh, when they came into the house, uh, they left one behind and they came in in a row. | ||
| And as they came in the door, through the door, uh, they would appear and disappear. | ||
| And there'd be sort of a wisp of like, uh, vapor behind as they came in. | ||
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They came in, appear, disappear, appear, disappear. | |
| And when they went out, there was a slot in this line of entities. | ||
| And she was swept off her feet and floated in this line. | ||
| And she went right through the door as well. | ||
| Which is another typical characteristics of people being taken through doors, through walls, through windows with these beings. | ||
| That was that particular type of entity. | ||
| Another type of entity that she has seen and others have seen with these. | ||
| That first one that you described though, that is the one commonly described again and again and again, isn't it? | ||
| And, uh, another type of entity that seems to be controlling the activities of these entities, uh, look very much like us. | ||
| Uh, they don't have the jumpsuit, uh, garments, uh, that these small ones have. | ||
| These, uh, uh, almost skin-tight garments, but they would, they look anything like what an extraterrestrial would look like. | ||
| Uh, they wear, they wear, they wear white robes. | ||
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They're about seven feet tall. | |
| Some have blonde hair. | ||
| Some have gray hair. | ||
| They have blue eyes. | ||
| And they, like the entities, communicate by telepathy and seem to be behind the whole thing. | ||
| There is an intermediate entity that looks just like the small ones, but taller, that seems to be in control, too. | ||
| There seems to be a pecking order here, if you accept all of this at face value. | ||
| Phew! | ||
| Have you concluded, through your research, anything at all about motive? | ||
| In other words, what they're doing, or why they're doing it? | ||
| What's hard to know at this juncture, what we do know is that one of the things that usually happens during these abductions is that sperm and ova are extracted from male and female abductees. | ||
| Then, there's a big leap of faith. | ||
| If we take at face value what some abductees, including Betty, are told by the abductors, there seems that, and I can't explain this really, I've tried to on the watches, but I'm not really sure about this, there seems to be a symbiotic There's a genetic relationship that exists between them and us. | ||
| In fact, what they told Betty was that those three-and-a-half, four-and-a-half foot beings were actually human fetuses that had been removed from human surrogate mothers and grown outside the womb. | ||
| And when you hear things like that, and when you look at these things, these hairless things, and you look at the mongoloid eyes, and you say to yourself, wow! | ||
| And so many people describe them as looking like You wonder if, you know, if what she allegedly was shown is real. | ||
| In other words, you would expect more human characteristics from a human hybrid. | ||
| Yeah, yeah. | ||
| It would seem, again, if you take them, what they told Betty at face value, that they claim that they're doing this because mankind is becoming sterile. | ||
| And you know, several years after that was said, I began to read newspaper reports about this very thing. | ||
| Because mankind is becoming sterile? | ||
| I had always heard it the other way, Ray, that they were taking some sort of genetic... something or another from us because their genetic code had become... I was just going to get to that as well. | ||
| They're having problems as well, but what they're saying is that mankind is becoming sterile. | ||
| And as I mentioned, several years after this was told her, a number of major newspaper articles came out that indicated, I think, a 50% drop over the last several decades of sperm count in males. | ||
| I believe I just heard that not long ago. | ||
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Yeah, so that's very interesting. | |
| I guess all you can say right now is that they seem to be interested in the reproductive systems of male and female. | ||
| They take sperm in over and they seem to be doing what we might call a genetic engineering program of some kind. | ||
| If you accept at face value the surrogate mother and removal of fetuses, then you probably could go all the way and say yes that what Betty witnessed on board a craft of these A woman, two fetuses taken from a woman and put in tanks and so forth, you know, it could be true. | ||
| Ray, that sounds as though, if you take it as you say at face value, they have some sort of proprietary interest in us, and you can choose not to answer this question if you wish, but would you think that might mean that they would be our creators or interested in us after the fact? | ||
| I claim, and again, you see, as an investigator, I'm more or less a reporter, what they told Betty, since we're talking about Betty, that they have been around since our beginning. | ||
| And that would probably imply that they may have had something to do with our beginning. | ||
| There's a tremendous leap in evolution, you know, back If you go back and look at the beginnings of man, one could speculate that they tampered with a pre-human being, if you would, and made them in their own image. | ||
| But, you know, that, again, is sheer speculation at this point. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| that would indicate they would have a lot more genetic knowledge | ||
| than that which we've amassed about ourselves so far and it looks as though an awful lot of diseases | ||
| maybe even cancer and aids and some of the rest of them may have uh... genetic solutions if there is ever to be a | ||
| solution and one would almost long for them to assist us in one of | ||
| these areas now that that brings up another question you know why why | ||
| don't they why haven't they are are they doing something uh... that we are unaware | ||
| of uh... over the centuries and so forth that that that has been helpful to | ||
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us through these abduction experiences | |
| You know what, you wonder why over and over and over again that they're doing these things, not just talking about the alleged fetus removal, but So why are they making punch biopsies? | ||
| Why are they taking sperm? | ||
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Why are they taking over? | |
| Why are they interested in us physically? | ||
| And so many people. | ||
| There's got to be a symbiotic relationship between them and us. | ||
| What they seem to be saying is that their survival is dependent upon our survival now. | ||
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You can speculate what that might mean. | |
| Has anybody toyed with the idea? | ||
| I understand that a lot of people who claim to have been abducted are frequently abducted and re-abducted and re-abducted. | ||
| And I wonder if it might be possible to, crazy as this may sound, in a sense, send them a message. | ||
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Send who a message now? | |
| Well, send the abductors a message through An abductee. | ||
| In other words, with the presumption that somebody is going to be abducted once again, as seems to be the case so many times, simply give them a message from us and try to open some channel of communication. | ||
| My opinion is that that's no problem. | ||
| They could communicate any time they want. | ||
| I think this is one of the reasons, a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons that they consider the threat to national security, as I was talking to Uh, scientists who work for the, uh, Air Force, uh, one of the Air Force projects, and they felt because of the evasiveness of the phenomena... Hello there? | ||
| Yeah, okay, I don't know what that was. | ||
| Uh, evasiveness of other phenomenon that, uh, you had to treat something like that as a, as a threat. | ||
| Uh, in fact, some of the early, uh, some of the early, uh, documents, uh, that were released through the Freedom of Information, uh, Act indicate that, that, uh, I have one right here, that action which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar. | ||
| So when you have something that violates a country's airspace, doesn't identify itself, can outpace anything that you send up to do something with it, you don't know where it comes from, you don't know what it's doing here, and it disrupts weapon systems, and does all kinds of things, you can see From a military point of view, that this must be treated as a possible or potential threat. | ||
| And I'm certain they do. | ||
| That brings us to the whole cover-up question, but I want to ask you a question about contact rate. | ||
| I've come to the conclusion, after doing talk shows about this for years and years, that there are a lot of people with religious faith out there, a strong religious faith, that would be terribly challenged by contact uh... by these by these beings if there was some great official you know that the saucer lands on the white house kind of deal a white house lawn kind of deal um... in less they were protected uh... if they'd made contact in the wrong way a lot of people would try to do these beings in another word society uh... really may not be ready for contact uh... how do you feel about that | ||
| I'm a devout Christian myself, and I must say that this has caused me to really expand my faith much to the consternation of some of my peers, who some of them would feel that even the existence of extraterrestrials is nonsense. | ||
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And you're right. | |
| A study made by Brookings Institute for NASA back in 1961 indicated that two groups in this country would be the most devastated if just Alien life was discovered, never mind in discovering us and making contact. | ||
| The first group was Fundamentalist Christianity. | ||
| The second group, believe it or not, was scientists, science and engineers, because technology, they felt, would be so above our science and technology that you could compare it to Western scientists with all their equipment and so forth, going into an aboriginal tribe in the and sort of the witch doctor there would probably be their | ||
| equivalent of science. | ||
| And there would be a huge gap between scientific knowledge. | ||
| And when you make that comparison, you're talking about Homo sapiens sapiens on the same planet. | ||
| You know, we have PhDs from MIT on this planet, and we have aborigines still in the Stone Age. | ||
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It must be very interesting for an extraterrestrial race to be studying. | |
| Yes, indeed. | ||
| If you had evidence, and I frequently ask this too, Ray, if you had incontrovertible evidence that they existed, and you sat down and thought about it yourself, that is, whether you would release it or not, would you? | ||
| Sure. | ||
| I feel it's part of man's evolution. | ||
| I think that when you look back, and we're talking about the impact, for example, on Science and religion. | ||
| When you look back to the early days, you know, prior to Galileo, Copernicus, and the rest of them, Kepler, you had a system that was wed to Aristotle's thought about the universe. | ||
| You had a geocentric universe, and then you had a discovery that sort of turned the world upside down. | ||
| All of theology, all of science was wed to Aristotle, and you had what was called a Copernican Revolution. | ||
| And it was a very painful process for people to go through. | ||
| But, you know, here we are, we accept these things now as, you know, common knowledge, but it was a part of man's evolution. | ||
| And I think holding information like this back, as disruptive as it might be, is part of man's heritage and evolution. | ||
| I know that something like this, the abduction phenomenon, for example, Crash retrieval bit. | ||
| All of this was made public if the President of the United States get up and showed positive evidence that all this was going on, that it would cause disruptions. | ||
| You don't have to do much to cause the stock market to crash, for example. | ||
| No, you sure don't. | ||
| There are a lot of things that would happen. | ||
| But, again, I feel very strongly that That's something that it's growing up pains for the human race. | ||
| It's something that we've got to go through. | ||
| And I think that UFO investigators who come into this with their own worldviews, their own religious systems, including myself, have gone through almost a grieving process because our world has been turned upside down, as it were. | ||
| The things that we thought were normal the way things should be, turn out not to be that way at | ||
| all. | ||
| And it is a painful process when you have to start expanding your worldview or your religion or whatever. | ||
| Ray, with all that you've investigated, I'm curious, have you come to any conclusions | ||
| about whether these beings are friendly and one should not fear them? | ||
| Or given an opportunity in an abduction situation, would you advise somebody instead, if they could, to run like hell? | ||
| Well, first of all, I don't think you could run. | ||
| And second of all, I think if they were hostile Like we consider hostile. | ||
| They could have done something a long time ago. | ||
| I think they're only hostile because they're something that's completely out of the ordinary to everybody. | ||
| I mean, anything unknown is hostile. | ||
| Well, it produces fear. | ||
| That's for certain. | ||
| Yeah, fear. | ||
| I mean, to have an abduction experience is Not even the equivalent of having your dead grandmother sort of float through the wall and start talking to you. | ||
| It's so completely out of the realm of possibility, of even probability, that it's awfully hard to accept that something like that can happen. | ||
| And even after it happens, and you mentioned how many people remember this, I think Dr. Bullard's study indicated that maybe 30% of abductees remember most of the abduction Without hypnosis. | ||
| Sometimes it'll come back with a complete flashback, for example. | ||
| And it affects a person for life, because there are questions that will never probably be answered. | ||
| They never can tell if it's going to happen again. | ||
| I talk to people sometimes for almost an hour on the telephone, just listening to them. | ||
| They're afraid to go to bed. | ||
| They go to bed, they leave the lights on, they lock the doors, they keep the radio going, because they don't know when it's going to happen again. | ||
| Uh, it can really disrupt a person's life. | ||
| What do you tell them about the probability? | ||
| They must ask. | ||
| In other words, they would ask you, look, in all the cases you've investigated, how many of them have turned out to be multiple abductions of a single individual? | ||
| What are the chances, in other words, that I'll be abducted again? | ||
| What are the chances? | ||
| I think the chances are very good. | ||
| I think it usually starts at least around five or six years old, and it continues. | ||
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I think a bullet study indicated that it continues. | |
| Maybe the 30s or 40s, and sometimes even after that, but I would say that that probably is the baseline. | ||
| Five or six years old, probably earlier, but how can you tell, except in a few cases where the parents might be witnesses of it, until they're 30 or 40 years old. | ||
| Well, that's not much comfort for an individual, is it? | ||
| No, it isn't. | ||
| And I've dealt with a lot of people who, including the Elegash abduction case that I just finished a shot while ago. | ||
| Yes, that's the next thing I'm going to ask you about, Alagash. | ||
| See, that started when the twins involved in that were, again, five or six years old. | ||
| They didn't know that. | ||
| They thought they were dealing with ghosts and paranormal phenomena. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| I can imagine that people would attach all kinds of different scenarios to it based on their life. | ||
| In other words, if they're devoutly religious, they're probably having a religious experience. | ||
| Or if they're into sort of a new age sort of thing, they calculate they've had an out-of-body experience, they probably attach all kinds of Uh, scenarios to this, don't they? | ||
| Yeah, and I think that, uh, it's possible with Andrea's affair that Betty has, uh, superimposed her religious beliefs on her experience, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't, uh, you know, be dogmatic about that. | ||
| It could possibly be that they in turn are using her religious beliefs to help to calm and assuage her fears, and then it could be a possible connection. | ||
| You've got three things there. | ||
| And what I try to do is stay neutral and say that these are three possibilities because he's not the only one that seems to have a theological content, as it were, to their abduction experiences. | ||
| At the MIT conference, I guess it was Bud Hopkins was saying that he felt that that theological content should be ignored and that it was a waste of time to look into it. | ||
| And a lot of investigators are saying that the paraphysical part of the abduction is a waste of time. | ||
| Let's deal with the nuts and bolts. | ||
| What's your feeling about that aspect of it, the out-of-body? | ||
| The aspect is that I've come across so many cases, including the one that Linda Moldenhauer was talking about, involving an out-of-the-body experience abduction and the physical body being left behind. | ||
| I've come across so many of those that I'm saying that My next, well I'm working on it now, book will deal with this particular aspect. | ||
| I think that you can't ignore these things. | ||
| A report written by an investigator usually reflects that investigator's, unfortunately, because no one's completely objective, his or her own world view. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| And if you are strictly a nuts and bolts UFO researcher, if you have a paranormal thing happen, you ignore it. | ||
| It never comes up in the report. | ||
| And there are a lot of other things, if there's a religious aspect to it, that may be dumped too. | ||
| And what you do, unfortunately, is you just give one facet of the UFO phenomenon in that particular report. | ||
| I feel that if you're going to investigate these reports, You've got to follow it wherever it leads. | ||
| Wherever it leads, you've got to have a baseline that includes everything. | ||
| Yes. | ||
| And then if you find it over and over and over and over again, not just a few isolated incidents, you just find a few isolated incidents, you say, well, this could be, you know, the personality of the person and so forth. | ||
| But if you find it over and over and over again, That will be your real baseline, not what happens to be a mirror image of what you think should be or shouldn't be. | ||
| People can put themselves in an altered state, and I wonder, Ray, if you think that one of these altered states is likely to bring on an abduction. | ||
| In other words, if you wanted to experiment with an altered state, would you think that it might have a chance of bringing something like this on? | ||
| That's possible. | ||
| Usually I think the altered state comes from the outside upon the abductee. | ||
| I don't think that the abductee can cause, as far as I know, I mean I don't know of any case where someone can cause something like this to happen. | ||
| I think there are some people, and there aren't too many people, that can, of their own volition, have an out-of-the-body experience. | ||
| But even then, I've challenged these people sometimes to do various things for me, and they haven't been able to perform yet, so that the real OBE seems to be something, for the most part, something that comes from the outside. | ||
| It may be a near-death experience, for example, or someone... I don't know how many cases I've read about someone who's Actually not dead, physically dead or pronounced dead, but is in a situation, for example, a car going over a cliff and they're in the car and all of a sudden they're outside of the car and they're watching everything. | ||
| Wow. | ||
| Ray, we have a break, a five minute break here at the top of the hour. | ||
| And, uh, and then we'll be back. | ||
| So relax for about five minutes, and we'll be right back to you. | ||
| Uh, that's Ray Fowler. | ||
| And, Ray, I'm gonna redial your number during this break. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| All right. | ||
| You're listening to Area 2000 on a Sunday evening. | ||
| From KD... KDWN, The Talk of the West, I'm Art Bell. | ||
| We'll be right back. | ||
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From Jackie Gons' Pleasure Downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas. | |
| AP Network News, I'm Mark Hamrick. | ||
| A spacewalk outside shuttle Endeavour is well underway this hour. | ||
| The second of the mission aimed at fixing the Hubble Telescope. | ||
| We'll get a live update now from my colleague Bob Moon of the Kennedy Space Center. | ||
| Well, it may be one of the prettiest pieces of space junk ever seen as they work to replace | ||
| the big power panels on the Hubble Space Telescope. | ||
| Endeavour's Fix-It crew disconnected one of the solar sails and pushed it overboard. | ||
| Spacewalker Cathy Thornton, riding on the end of the shuttle's robot arm, held the big | ||
| power panel above her head and then simply let go. | ||
| Yeah, honey. | ||
| Okay, they say you gotta go for release. | ||
| Expect 20 pulses on the R-H-2. | ||
| There's a man. | ||
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It is going to be 20 pulses on the R-H-2 for a jet burn. | |
| As Commander Dick Covey fired the shuttle's jets in a separation burn, | ||
| the panel started twisting end over end, and now TV pictures from space show it soaring through | ||
| against the backdrop of the ocean, looking something like a bird flying over the sea. | ||
| Bob Moon, AP Network News, live at the Kennedy Space Center. | ||
| Published reports says the U.S. | ||
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and Russian militaries are discussing a proposal. | |
| Welcome back to Area 2000 on a Sunday night. | ||
| By the way, for those of you that have not yet had an opportunity to view it, the shots of the space shuttle working on the Hubble telescope are absolutely astounding. | ||
| And they can be seen in a couple of places. | ||
| CNN is running them with occasional breaks. | ||
| If you want it uninterrupted, I'm not sure if they're carrying it tonight, but C-SPAN, if you have access to cable or satellite, C-SPAN has also been running the shuttle video uninterrupted, and it's quite spectacular and should be going on shortly. | ||
| So you may want to get that locked in on your television set. | ||
| My guest is Ray Fowler. | ||
| Fascinating stuff we're talking about. | ||
| abductions and we have redialed Ray but there is a significant storm I guess | ||
| going on in the Northeast and so we may be troubled by this same static. Ray are | ||
| you there? I sure am. All right well it sounds a little better we'll see how it | ||
| what kind of storm are you having Ray? Well we had a tremendous rainstorm with maybe a | ||
| couple inches of rain and now we're getting a sort of a call wave behind it | ||
| a lot of wind blowing and I think it's probably blowing the telephone lines | ||
| I've changed a couple of different channels here. | ||
| I think it's a lot better. | ||
| Yeah, it does sound better. | ||
| Good. | ||
| All right, to finish up with the out-of-body experiences, it is a fascinating aspect, and you're right. | ||
| I found that a lot of researchers, if it involves this aspect or the religious aspect, run away from it. | ||
| And that seems to me to be sort of a deviation from what ought to be a real scientific approach. | ||
| Yeah, I finally decided that, well I watched Dr. Hynek and I watched Dr. Jacques Vallee move from a strictly nuts and bolts interest in the phenomenon to more interest in the paraphysical side of it. | ||
| Well, yeah. | ||
| In other words, some of the nuts and bolts might not be nuts and bolts that we recognize, and so I guess it's... That's correct. | ||
| And when you have an object disappear and appear on radar as you're watching it visually, as if it were going somewhere else and then coming back into the space-time continuum, we might be... I think Dr. Hynek in his later years was thinking that they may be extraterrestrial. | ||
| But maybe they travel in another dimension. | ||
| Well, you're just ahead of me. | ||
| I was about to ask you about the possibility of it being dimensional travel as opposed to travel through space itself. | ||
| Why not through time or another dimension? | ||
| Is that not at least as likely? | ||
| Well, y'all, and this is why I'm interested in the paraphysical aspects of this, because when a person is taken And his body is left behind. | ||
| He or she is taken by the same entities. | ||
| Don't ask me how to explain it. | ||
| They are physically examined, quote-unquote, the same way that they would have been if their physical body had been taken with them. | ||
| And then they return. | ||
| Do you think this will, Ray, do you think this is going to lead you into perhaps some research with the people looking into near-death experiences? | ||
| Already have. | ||
| In fact, Dr. Ring has just written a new book, and he's probably one of the leading advocates or researchers into this, and he has kind of the same conclusion as I had in The Watchers, where I think that there is a definite connection between... and it sounds incredible, I never thought I'd even be saying this to anybody, let alone on the radio. | ||
| When you talk to people who have gone through what Dr. Bullard says, the tour and the other world and the theophany, which most abductees don't go through, what they describe is very similar to what people who have the near-death experience describe, so much so that this is another aspect of the abduction phenomenon I'm concentrating on as well. | ||
| Uh, and, uh, it's caused Dr. Ring, who has been working with a near-death experience for many, many years, to look at the UFO phenomenon for the first time, uh, after he met Betty and Bob Andreessen, uh, Bob, uh, Lucas now, Betty and Bob, uh, Luca. | ||
| Uh, and, uh, the Andreessen Affair and the investigations into them has led him to look into the whole of UFO abduction phenomena. | ||
| So all of a sudden, you have The NDE expert coming from one direction and so-called UFO expert coming in another direction and meeting each other. | ||
| Fascinating, because those are the exact two aspects that this program is concentrated on. | ||
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I was surprised and pleased to hear that. | |
| And so am I, in view of the fact that the research may now be moving, the two areas of research may be moving toward each other. | ||
| Fascinating. | ||
| How are you now going to proceed as you Move into these areas. | ||
| Are you going to start contacting these investigators more and more? | ||
| Or how are you going to move now, direction-wise, in your investigations? | ||
| I guess I'm going to concentrate on those reports, including the Andreas Affair. | ||
| Those reports that report the OBE and the NDE type characteristics. | ||
| And by looking to enough of them, Try to come up with some kind of analysis of the similarities, much the same way that Dr. Bullitt did with his study of the abduction phenomenon in a general way. | ||
| But specifically, look at these particular cases and see how they stand up in comparison to each other. | ||
| And it's going to be a long study. | ||
| I've just really started this. | ||
| Mr. Feller, is there anybody else doing similar work now and moving down some of the lines that you're anticipating or have begun to move down? | ||
| I know of, and I was really surprised to hear it, is Dr. Ring. | ||
| And again, he has started at the other end, starting from the NDE and working toward the UFO, and I'm working toward the UFO, and working toward the The NDE and interviewing people who have had out-of-the-body experiences and near-death experiences as well, I mean, aside from the UFO phenomenon, as well as people who have had the UFO abduction experience and have had these experiences. | ||
| One of the things that have happened to even people who haven't had the abduction experience, I find over and over again, people who have had a close encounter of any kind with a UFO, that they A lot of them, a large percentage of them begin to experience a variety of psychic phenomena. | ||
| Some of them had no interest in psychic phenomena. | ||
| Nothing like that had ever happened to them. | ||
| Sometimes it goes on for a few weeks and it stops, and sometimes it goes on and on and on. | ||
| Poltergeist phenomena, out-of-the-body experiences, strange synchronistic things happening. | ||
| And how this connects with The UFO experience they had, I don't know. | ||
| One can say that the experience enhanced their so-called psychic ability, so that they were able to detect things that they were always there, but for some reason the experience somehow enhanced their psychic abilities. | ||
| Or one could say that it's a continuation of the experience, and all they are seeing is sort of the visible tip of something that's going on, a monitoring system or something that's going on. | ||
| But, as an investigator and a reporter, all I can say is that you have A, a close encounter with a UFO, and B, coinciding with that, in many cases, you have an eruption of psychic phenomena, so-called. | ||
| We call it psychic phenomena, but that's just a name. | ||
| You really don't know what it is. | ||
| Well, you're really following a fascinating area of research, and I'm going to stay close to you, if I can, and find out where it goes. | ||
| I really think you might be on the right track. | ||
| I'm curious about this. | ||
| Uh, the UFO community itself, uh, for years has faced, uh, you know, people like yourself who would come out, uh, would face some sort of ridicule, and I wonder if now, uh, following the path that you're following, uh, you're liable to face ridicule from the standard UFO community. | ||
| Well, I'm sure I had a, uh, a business meeting with some people, uh, this afternoon, uh, and two very, very enthusiastic, uh, people who have been involved in the nuts and bolts study for, for years, and, and, uh, They're very, very rigid in their particular beliefs, and it wouldn't have anything to do with what I was talking about. | ||
| It was interesting to talk to them face-to-face and so forth, and I guess what... why it didn't interest them is that they feel, and I feel too, that the scientific method for proof of UFOs can't possibly apply Paranormal phenomena. | ||
| How can you capture something like that and how can you measure it and test it and so forth, except in a statistical way? | ||
| What they're looking for, and what I'm looking for too, is the physical evidence, something that you can measure in a laboratory, just like the gentleman that's examining the crop circle. | ||
| You know, this is the physical part of the phenomenon. | ||
| Or examining physical traces that are left behind, ground effects, or... True enough, and I'm not discounting it, Ray, but gee whiz, years and years and years of examination of physical evidence, and we still have no real answers, so... No, all it does is give you some evidence to support the anecdotal data that comes forth from a witness, indicating that, you know, I saw an object sitting there in the field, You go to the field and you see what looks like a microwave radiation that's baked the earth down to maybe a foot or something, and you see three or four pad marks, and you take a penetrometer and it looks like a ton sat on each thing, so you can say, well, you know, something was here, and they described that something was here, therefore something must have been there, but it really doesn't tell you where it comes from, what it's doing here. | ||
| Right. | ||
| You know, what of anything you can do about it? | ||
| I guess it gives you very, very strong evidence that there was a machine-like looking object sitting there, and it took off, just like the witness said. | ||
| Because there'd be no way for the witness to be able to duplicate what is left behind. | ||
| But it really doesn't give you the answers. | ||
| If the abduction phenomenon is real and not illusory, and whatever this is behind it, Uh, wants to communicate through that means. | ||
| That's the only way we're going to know. | ||
| My own opinion is that we are like, uh, a donkey being led by a carrot. | ||
| I think that the phenomenon, slowly but surely, is going to allow us to, very slowly but surely, uh, come to terms with it. | ||
| And I, and when you look back, and I've been in this since 47, as far as interest goes, and 63 since an investigation goes, It has been a process and you had the flyovers and that was very hard to accept. | ||
| Then you had the close encounters. | ||
| I can remember researchers back then when people would say that they saw a machine-like object rather than a distant object close by that they were scoffed at and that was hard to accept. | ||
| Then you had the landed objects and the researchers scoffed at that for a while and then finally accepted that. | ||
| And then you had the close encounters of the third kind where Entities were seen and associated with the object, and people were locked in. | ||
| Reports were thrown in the wastebasket, and then finally that was accepted. | ||
| Now you've got the abduction report, and finally that's being accepted as getting into, out of the UFO research community, into the health professional community. | ||
| It's sort of been... And here you are one step ahead of that. | ||
| Yeah, maybe. | ||
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What it seems to be is that we've been undergoing a conditioning. | |
| It reminds me of a story I heard where some missionaries were trying to contact this tribe, and they overflew the village with an airplane, scared the living daylights out of them. | ||
| But after they saw the airplane for a long time, they didn't run, so they rigged up a rope with a basket on it, and they dropped it down, and they were able to circle the plane so the basket would stay fairly still. | ||
| The natives finally would come out and start getting closer and closer to the basket and they put some machetes in it and some tools and so forth and finally they grabbed those and finally they were trading back and forth. | ||
| And then finally they landed the plane and they made contact. | ||
| Unfortunately their intentions were misconstrued and they got killed. | ||
| Well if we, Ray, if we are the natives and the conditioning is underway now How far through that process do you think we might be? | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| I just have this strong, strong feeling that, you know, we started out at the base of a pyramid, and over the years, you know, the lines on either side are getting closer and closer to the top. | ||
| And the people that I talk to who have had the abduction experience have the same impression. | ||
| I'm trying to be very objective, and I say maybe, maybe not. | ||
| But I feel it's the phenomena wouldn't waste its time to be doing all it's been doing since 1947. | ||
| And it's been doing an awful lot just for the fun of it. | ||
| There has to be a purpose behind it. | ||
| It's not a natural phenomenon. | ||
| It's an intelligently controlled phenomenon. | ||
| Interested in our weapon systems. | ||
| When I worked for GTE Government Systems, I was involved with the development, research and development and production of the Minuteman missile, and talked to launch control facility officers and fellow Sylvanians, or GTE Sylvanians, we were at that time, and other subcontractors and contractors out at the site, and they were disrupting our equipment. | ||
|
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Oh? | |
| Disrupting our equipment, and we couldn't do anything at all about it. | ||
| Uh, why were they doing that? | ||
| Were they testing our defense systems or were they trying to tell us something? | ||
| Disrupting our equipment in what way, Ray? | ||
| Well, uh, Dr. Hynek confirmed this when I talked to him. | ||
| One launch control facility officer told me that this thing was tracked by a radar 100,000 feet up and was disrupting the total communication system of the launch control facility. | ||
| In other words, the LCF as they call them. | ||
| Uh, would have found it very, very hard to communicate to the launch facility, uh, to, you know, fire a missile. | ||
| Uh, other, uh, launch control facility officers told me sometimes the whole, the whole flight would just go down. | ||
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Hmm. | |
| Um, uh, there were guidance control systems. | ||
| And you don't think you were, uh, the victim of some sort of electronic countermeasure? | ||
| No. | ||
| You know, I got in a big trouble with my company for publishing some of that stuff, uh, the Pentagon called and, uh, The Strategic Air Command called me, threatened to send a letter of displeasure to my company if I didn't stop this thing. | ||
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That would have meant that I can't be good to my parents, and that would have put me right out of the defense industry, so I had to be very careful after that. | |
| You had a cryptic clearance. | ||
| Ah, that was an interesting avenue to follow and probably go nowhere with. | ||
| Uh, Ray, as a result, without being able to tell us anything specific with the evaluation of the law, was there anything you ever, uh, found out to suppress or not? | ||
| Um, other than what you just explained that would lead you to believe that, uh, we're dealing with extra pressure? | ||
|
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Uh, when I was, uh, We're the United States Air Force Security Service. | |
| We each were in buildings. | ||
| We weren't supposed to know what each building were doing. | ||
| We were actually doing electronic spying on the Russians with sophisticated direction finders. | ||
| We would conduct mock raids on Russia and they'd tune up their air defense command and send up fighters to meet our aircraft approaching. | ||
| What we would do is, using direction finders, we would know Where every one of those radar sites were, we had people who were linguists, were recording everything that was said, all the procedures, there were people taking morse code and so forth. | ||
| I talked to another person who wasn't really supposed to tell me this stuff, but he was saying that they used crypto channels to relay UFO information from England to, you know, the Pentagon. | ||
| I never got involved because I wasn't involved with the teletype that he was involved in. | ||
| Now, wait a minute. | ||
| You mean, after Project Blue Book, the government's interest actually did not wane? | ||
|
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Well, this is back in the fifties. | |
| Back in the fifties, right. | ||
| Back in the fifties, Specifically states that the Aerospace Defense Command is responsible for collecting information on unidentified flying objects from both civilian and military sources, regardless of Project Blue Book. | ||
| Project Blue Book, since 1953, was probably just a public information group that was used to, well, they did send some of the better reports onward somewhere. | ||
| But basically it was just a three-person group at the Pentagon. | ||
| Well, not the Pentagon, at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. | ||
| And a public information officer at the Pentagon that essentially tried to assuage public panic or interest in the subject by explaining in a way of natural phenomena or man-made objects or hoaxes and so forth. | ||
| But the real reports that had scientific value would go somewhere else. | ||
| This is back in the 50s. | ||
| I talked to a person, a very reliable person, who was in photography and he told me that he had seen many a gun camera and stills of, that he developed them himself. | ||
| He wouldn't give me any details. | ||
| All he would do is admit that this was being done and it was standard operating procedure. | ||
| Dr. Heineck told me that Uh, when fighter planes have done camera photographs that they would land and they would be debriefed and the canister would be taken somewhere and they would be seen again. | ||
| Well, Gordon Cooper has gone on record stating that when he was at what was called Newark Air Force Base, which is now Edwards Air Force Base, that they were there, they had equipment set up, to take photographs of something, I've forgotten what it | ||
| was, when they had a UFO land and they actually were able to photograph the UFO and he said again | ||
| the canisters were taken and they would be briefed and as he said in his drawl off the | ||
| Washington never to be seen again. | ||
| Well then you obviously are a believer in the government cover-up. | ||
|
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Oh well yeah. | |
| I wouldn't call it a cover-up, but I'm not sure that's the right reason. | ||
| I wouldn't think it was more of a cover-up than keeping stealth and some of these other things secret. | ||
| I think there's a number of reasons why something like that would be done. | ||
| I mean, I think I explained that any object that penetrates our airspace without permission is automatically considered a potential threat. | ||
| Normally all the regulations that center around national security would center on that particular incident or incidents. | ||
| Something I always wonder about, Ray, we have come a long way with stealth technology ourselves. | ||
| I mean, that's the state of our art. | ||
| And one has to imagine with a technology that would be greatly in advance of ours, you know, if they didn't want to be seen, we wouldn't be seeing them on radar or with our eyes, for that matter. | ||
| You have cases where you get a radar lock on and suddenly it's gone. | ||
| Yeah, and then they change the radar frequency, and it'll be there. | ||
| As soon as that, the radar waves, you know, make contact with the object, gone. | ||
| They change frequency again, it's there. | ||
| That's documented. | ||
| In fact, at one time, it even got out of the local newspaper that it happened before, you know, it got to where it was supposed to go and then quelled. | ||
| Well, I'm not... I'm surely not an expert on stealth technology, but that capability is different, I think. | ||
| Is it not, Ray, than the normal stealth technology we have, which would... That is, but, you know, a fellow I was talking to today, Barry Greenwood, I don't know if you ever talked to him before, he's probably got one of the largest civilian libraries on government documents and everything to do with UFOs. | ||
| We were talking about stealth today, and he was saying that he had documents that go way back Oh, I think in the sixties where the Air Force was trying to come up with a conclusion that a disc-shaped object would have very little visibility on radar. | ||
| That's when they were starting a joint project with Canada to build a disc-shaped object, the Avro Company. | ||
| And the problem was that it was very unstable and there was really no There's no room to have a lot of fuel. | ||
| I mean, you have airplanes, you've got these wings that fuel, and then you have the fuel tanks and so forth, but you have this disc-shaped thing, and it was very unstable. | ||
|
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It only got a few feet off the ground. | |
| In fact, I've actually seen movies of it tested. | ||
| So a disk, to be stable, would require the kind of technology we've heard about that's very different than that which we have to propel one in normal aerodynamic flight. | ||
| In our opinion, the flying disks, so-called, or flying saucers, don't fly. | ||
| They're the equivalent of what we would call a diving belt. | ||
| What you have is something... Usually you don't have an object that comes down and goes from point A to B. | ||
| If you do at some point, sometimes, but most of these sightings you have, they come down, they go around a very, very local area, and it's like something pulls them up on a rubber band, you know. | ||
| It's almost like, and they come down in a falling leaf motion, almost like they didn't have any weight or mass, and then they just sucked right up. | ||
| It's almost like They aren't aerodynamic. | ||
| They just lower them down to do their thing, and then take it up again. | ||
| Oh, that's fascinating. | ||
| Alright, Ray, we're at the bottom of the hour, and I'm going to ID the station, and then perhaps we'll take a few calls if you're up for it. | ||
| Alright, stay right there. | ||
| Ray Fowler is my guest. | ||
| This is Area 2000. | ||
| 2000. | ||
|
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From Jackie Gons Pleasure downtown, this is KDWN Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening, from Las Vegas, you're listening to Area 2000, on the top of the west, KDWN | ||
| radio. | ||
| This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | ||
| Good evening, from Las Vegas, you're listening to Area 2000, on the top of the west, KDWN | ||
| radio. | ||
|
unidentified
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This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | |
| Good evening, from Las Vegas, you're listening to Area 2000, on the top of the west, KDWN | ||
| radio. | ||
| This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | ||
|
unidentified
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Good evening, from Las Vegas, you're listening to Area 2000, on the top of the west, KDWN | |
| radio. | ||
| This is KDWN, Las Vegas. | ||
| k b w n radio Alright, here it is, the phones are going open. | ||
| In the metropolitan area of Las Vegas, you can reach us at 383-8255, 8255. | ||
| If you're calling from outside the state, toll free, it's 1-800-338-8255. | ||
|
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1-800-338-8255. | |
| The wildcard lines are area code direct dial, in other words. | ||
| Area code 7-0-2. | ||
|
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3-8-5-7-2-1-4. | |
| of the wild card lines or area code direct dial in other words uh... | ||
|
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72-14. | |
| area code seven oh two three eight five | ||
| seven two one four seventy two fourteen and then finally if you have never called | ||
| program at all feel free to use the first time caller line at area code seven oh two | ||
| three eight five two one three | ||
| seventy two thirteen 7213. | ||
| And Ray Fowler, are you still there? | ||
|
unidentified
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Right. | |
| All right. | ||
| Let's experiment with the great unknown for a moment and go to the lines. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| On our first time caller line, you're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
| Hello there. | ||
|
unidentified
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Hello. | |
| Yes, you're on the air, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
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Oh, um, yes, I'd like to ask you, I've read your book on walkers, walkers actually, and I wanted to know, um, you said that these, um, crafts, um, can go through space-time. | |
| Um, I'm actually, um, that they could, uh... Okay, he gave up. | ||
| He got nervous, Ray, and gave up. | ||
| Um, Wild Card Line 3, you're on the air in Las Vegas with Ray Fowler in Massachusetts. | ||
| Uh, good evening. | ||
|
unidentified
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Hello? | |
| Hello. | ||
| Uh, turn your radio off, sir. | ||
|
unidentified
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Okay. | |
| Off. | ||
| And, uh, and then give us some idea of where you're calling from. | ||
|
unidentified
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I'm calling from Santa Cruz, California. | |
| Santa Cruz. | ||
| Alright, go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
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And, uh, I just wanted to, uh, mention something about my son's stuff my dad told me when he was in the Air Force. | |
| Alright. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
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Are we live? | |
| Yes, we're live. | ||
| Go ahead, please. | ||
|
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Um, yeah, my father was in the Air Force for 23 years. | |
| And, uh, he told me he was in the missiles. | ||
| And, uh, I guess he started, I don't know what exactly happened, but he, uh, within the last couple of years, he was sick in the retirement home, and he was telling me all kinds of stories about some stuff they were doing down in Dreamland, uh, working with some weird, uh, flying equipment, I guess they recovered. | ||
| Uh, well, that does present a good opportunity. | ||
| Thank you, caller, uh, from Santa Cruz. | ||
| Um, Ray, I have my own sighting. | ||
| I live, uh, in the Pahrump Valley, which is, uh, about 65 miles west of here, and just about a valley or so over from what they call Dreamland. | ||
| Right. | ||
| And, uh, in all my life, Ray, um, I've never seen a thing until just a couple of months, a few months ago. | ||
| And I saw this incredibly large, triangular craft, totally black, floating, not flying, and I know the difference, | ||
| just about 150 feet above me, didn't make a sound, utterly silent. | ||
| And I wonder what you can tell us about what's going on at Greenland, | ||
|
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if you know of anything at all, and whether what I've heard of these crafts that are cited | |
| may not be the kind of craft that you're talking about, but something we are doing. | ||
| I'm sure we're doing a lot there. | ||
| The stelt was flying a lot longer than they were willing to. | ||
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And I'm sure that a lot of other things flying there. | |
| I think the rumors that we have crashed, retrieved crashed saucers there, for want of a better term, that we have somehow flying them is strictly a rumor, no matter what Bob Lazar and William Cooper and Jim Liam might want us to believe. | ||
| I think that we need a lot more evidence. | ||
| I think when you have an experimental test range and you have state-of-the-art equipment being tested there, it's going to look very, very unusual. | ||
| And very rarely, in fact, unless there was an accident, you just don't fly experimental aircraft out of a test range. | ||
| You know, if it crashed, the security aspect would be horrendous. | ||
| So, I don't think that we're dealing with extraterrestrials out there. | ||
| The triangular track is very interesting because we've got reports of that in this area. | ||
| We just had one reported a couple of weeks ago in Vermont, flying at treetop level, making no noise. | ||
| And then Belgium, a couple of years ago, they got lots of reports of these things. | ||
| But again, what you I'll tell you this Ray, I had never even heard of a triangular craft until I had my sighting. | ||
| I went on the radio on my syndicated program and I told the story quite extensively and all of a sudden my fax machine lit up And I have never seen so many triangular craft in my whole life, so there are a lot of them. | ||
| In fact, boomerang shaped craft as well. | ||
| Upper State, New York, back in the late 80s. | ||
| There are thousands of sightings in Upper State, New York. | ||
| Dr. Heineck and Philip Imbrugno wrote a book about it. | ||
| There were so many of them. | ||
| The interesting thing is that news of what was going on there, and these things were hovering over reservoirs, atomic plants, and houses, and moving without any noise at all. | ||
| Some people describe them almost as big as a football field. | ||
| Very similar to what happened in Belgium. | ||
| The interesting thing is that usually the news about these things were just confined to the local newspapers and the local TV stations. | ||
| This seems to be true about the UFO subject in general. | ||
| You know, in the old days, if you had something like that happen, the Associated Press and UPI would pick it up and it'd be in the newspapers. | ||
| But what I find now is, unless you subscribe to a news web service that looks into all of the various local sightings all over the United States, you wouldn't think that UFOs existed. | ||
| Well, you may find this of some interest. | ||
| About the week or two weeks after the sighting I had, a most unusual story appeared in my little Pahrump Valley Times, which I still have, somebody gave me. | ||
| And I'll just read from it for a second. | ||
| The low-flying aircraft over Pahrump late last week and again Sunday night, which is when I saw it, were probably part of a classified training exercise, according to a spokesman from Nellis. | ||
| A number of Pahrump residents were talking about a big aircraft that passed Over their homes last week, and judging by the areas that people live in, it appears the C-130 circled most of the valley and buzzed some homes several times. | ||
| So it was a classified mission, and they're trying to sell us on the fact that it was a C-130. | ||
| I was never so insulted in all of my life. | ||
| I've flown on C-130s, and I guarantee this was no C-130. | ||
| They could have tried to sell a lot of things, but a C-130, frankly, I found to be insulting. | ||
| Oh, they've done this over and over again on the Blue Boat Days. | ||
| Actually, incredible explanations like that. | ||
| Whether they're trying to cover for an experimental aircraft, or they're trying to cover for a UFO, which they most likely knew was there because of the radar installations they have there. | ||
| I don't know, but this is typical of the old Blue Boat Days. | ||
| Fascinating. | ||
| Wild Card Line 3, good evening. | ||
| You're on the air with Ray Fowler in Massachusetts. | ||
|
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Oh, good evening, Art, and Mr. Ray Fowler. | |
| Good evening. | ||
| You know, as far as I'm loud and noisy, I live up here in Boyers in Northeast California, and they've been sending B-52s, Art, over our region, I guess over that scrapyard in Arizona. | ||
| Anyway, I'll get quick to the point. | ||
| I've been hearing a lot about these missing children. | ||
| And, uh, you know, a lot of them can't be found. | ||
| I was just kind of wondering if Ray knew that, has any information about maybe, uh, are they being abducted, or, uh, what's the situation of a lot of these children that can't be found? | ||
| Yeah, good. | ||
|
unidentified
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Listen off the air. | |
| Alright, it's a good question. | ||
| There are a lot of missing children. | ||
| Ray, some of them, uh, are coming to no good, uh, because of foul play right here on Earth. | ||
| I wonder how many of them might be meeting some other fate. | ||
| I haven't the slightest idea. | ||
| I think that's in the realm of speculation. | ||
| And until you had some eyewitness reports of a child being taken by a strange object or a beam of light or something like that and not returned, I would say that this most likely has to do with human abductions. | ||
| And depending upon the age of the child, you have a lot of runaways, for example, as well as abductions. | ||
| I mean, this horrible thing that happened in The man alleged to have done that has now been officially charged with a crime. | ||
| Ray, there is a space mission, a very complex one, underway right now. | ||
| And the reason I bring it up is because I've been watching the spacewalks, which are fascinating. | ||
| And one would have to imagine that if they were here, they would take particular interest In anything taking us off our own planet, and I wonder if you've heard anything about that. | ||
| The astronauts, what have they seen officially or unofficially? | ||
| What do you think's going on there? | ||
| Well, Astronaut General McDevitt saw a cylindrical UFO with a pole sticking out of it back in Gemini 4. | ||
| Gordon Cooper stated at a United Nations meeting that we were trying to Get the United Nations to get involved in UFO research. | ||
| Stated that there were NASA officials that had encounters with UFOs. | ||
| A very respectable professor was sharing the same program, a podium with one of the astronauts. | ||
| I won't mention names, but was talking to the astronaut and the astronaut said that They see them practically every mission, he says, but if you quote me, I'll deny it, you know. | ||
| Yeah, that's his way, but... I trust the person who told me, and it was his reaction, not personally. | ||
| You're right, I think that this is going on. | ||
| Gordon Cooper, I was told by one fellow from there that I was not a player, and I don't think that he was very well liked, Uh, by some people because of the statements, uh, he was making. | ||
|
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Mm-hmm. | |
| In fact, he... When he was in the Air Force back in 51, for two days, uh, he was the leader of a fighter squadron, and, uh, they chased UFOs that were coming over the base, and they were just above the operating capability of the F-86s that they had, but they were round, metallic, they were making right-angle turns, uh, whatever they were, they were under intelligence control, and they were Made of a metallic material. | ||
| But it seems that most likely, the astronauts, as well as any military person, even an airline pilot, I don't know if you're even aware of this, but you also apply to commercial carriers. | ||
| And once a commercial airline pilot makes what they call the Equivalence of a Military Service Report. | ||
| It's not supposed to do anything that might be a threat to national security, but UFOs are one of the things on the list. | ||
| If they divulge the contents of the Equivalence of a Military Service Report, they are subject to 10 years of jail or 10,000 dollar fines or both. | ||
| In 1954, this was imposed upon all the major airline carriers In 400, over 400, I think it was 450 pilots protested and signed a petition against it, but it didn't do any good. | ||
| Well, I can see why the military wants the information from the pilots. | ||
| It's a shame, though, that they're being civilians. | ||
| There's a lot of talk about it. | ||
| Sure. | ||
| Another aspect of this, Ray, would be something that's not talked about a lot, and that is we have a gigantic series of KH satellites and Landsats and other satellites that are | ||
| capable of looking down on Earth. | ||
| And one would imagine that if there were things flying about, there would have been significant evidence gathered | ||
| from that. | ||
| I'm sure that there are. | ||
| I've talked to an Air Force colonel, for example, that was working with the U.S. | ||
|
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in New York when I was at D.C.B. | |
| He recently got a job. | ||
| He's the commander of one of the optical trackers. | ||
| It's a huge telescope. | ||
| They will be tracking things in orbit. | ||
| Things that are known and things that are unknown. | ||
| And, uh, giving the azimuth elevation, uh, right ascension declination, or whatever they use, to, uh, what was it, uh, the North American, uh, yeah, the defense command there announced space promises. | ||
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unidentified
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Right. | |
| He claimed that there were things coming into orbit and out of orbit, and, uh, those two astronauts had started asking questions about this, and he was just told to mind his own business, that there was a blue ribbon panel looking into this, and, uh, that his job was just to send the data in. | ||
| I'll tell you, there's an awful lot of people that want to talk to you, so let's keep it here. | ||
| Good morning, Line 3. | ||
| You're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
|
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This is Rick from Los Angeles. | |
| Thanks again to the Bigelow Foundation for this most outstanding educational program. | ||
| I want to say to Ray that this book definitely has changed the rules. | ||
| You have the advantage over most of the UFO researchers and scientists Because he has the metaphysical background for knowing, I would say, the cosmic ABC. | ||
| Ray, you also pointed out in your book, the acceleration of UFO activity is directly related to man's increasing inhumanity to man. | ||
| Can you tell us about the coming events? | ||
| The planet must change its face because of man's ignorance. | ||
| Alright, thanks Fritz. | ||
| What about our behavior down here connected to the... Well, I don't think that was in my book. | ||
|
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I think maybe he read some of his own ideas in the bottom of the paragraph. | |
| But according to what they told Betty, that's because of what we were doing to write on it. | ||
| It's a little commotion and not properly exposed in the common ways and things like that. | ||
| So they didn't go into any detail. | ||
| That man was going to become a hero and therefore they were clutching sperm and ovum, not only from man but also from a variety of life forms on Earth. | ||
| But they never indicated anything about him, humanity, to man or to her, nor did they mention anything spectacular coming in any detail. | ||
| They indicated that something was going to happen But they didn't say what. | ||
| There are a lot of people these days, Ray, with the feeling that something is imminent. | ||
| Do you get those vibrations as well? | ||
| Yeah. | ||
| Yeah, I do, from the abductees. | ||
| But again, I think you've got to be very, very careful. | ||
| I think because of the state that the world is in right now, that people are probably looking for something | ||
| from the outside to help, feeling that they are self-helpless | ||
| to do anything about our situation. | ||
| Therefore, something has to come from the outside. | ||
| So you've got that mentality, that mindset, and then you've got the abductees, | ||
| and you wonder whether that, you know, the way you draw the line between what the abductees | ||
| are allegedly told or whether they're part of the same mindset | ||
| and hoping that whatever this is that happened to them, it's going to be helpful. | ||
|
unidentified
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Sure. | |
| Sure, I understand. | ||
| Good evening. | ||
| On our first time caller line, you're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
| Where are you calling from, sir? | ||
|
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Henderson. | |
| Okay, go ahead, sir. | ||
| I'm fairly convinced that this probe into Mars that they lost recently... Yes, the Explorer. | ||
| I'm convinced that that was a big cover-up. | ||
| I think they know where it's at, and they evidently shut it off or something. | ||
| I'd just like to have your thoughts on that, and I'll listen. | ||
| All right, thank you. | ||
| What about the Mars Explorer, Ray? | ||
| There are a lot of theories firing around out there about it, that there was a lot on Mars they didn't want us to see, and so they shut it off. | ||
| What do you feel about that? | ||
| I have no opinion. | ||
| I've read articles by people who feel that that's so, but again, there may be wishful thinking on their part. | ||
| You have the so-called face on Mars enthusiast. | ||
| You may indeed have some artifacts up there. | ||
| We really don't know until we get there. | ||
| It seems that there has been, not only with the United States probes to Mars, but Russia's Phobos-1 and Phobos-2. | ||
| They've had serious problems, and if you can believe what came out of Russia from an astronaut, that Phobos-2 actually photographed a cylindrical object approaching it prior to its going off the air. | ||
| If you can believe things like that, if that really happened, then maybe There are some things going on up there that we don't know about. | ||
| You look back at some of the news clippings concerning what NASA used to call the Galactic Ghoul, where very strange things would happen to our satellites. | ||
| In the early days, especially, they would go off the air, not transmit, and then come back on like something had repaired them or something. | ||
| All of this stuff is speculation. | ||
| These things happen. | ||
| You don't know the answer. | ||
| I think it's very unscientific to, uh, you know, to come to any specific conclusion of why they're happening. | ||
| Most likely, the most probable thing is that, uh, we've had problems with our large, uh, large probe. | ||
| And not saying it's possible if they shut it off and so forth, but, uh, Uh, right now that's just sheer speculation and maybe looseful thinking on some people's part. | ||
| All right, well there may be a lot of looseful thinking involved in this entire area, and it wasn't something that would separate from the reality. | ||
| On our first time caller line, good evening, you're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I have a question. | |
| Oh, well, try again. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Okay, here we go. | |
| I wrote it down this time, so it'll be better. | ||
| I've read your book, The Watchers, and the book you talked about men becoming sterile, And the aliens could see the future, but do little about it, about changing it. | ||
| Also, the aliens we're showing have got these films about Earth being destroyed, but possibly. | ||
| What I'd like to know is, do you think the aliens could possibly be from the future? | ||
| Possibly, now that they need help, they're coming back for reproductive Actually, not that wild. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| You did very well there. | ||
| You finally got it together. | ||
| That's kind of what we've been talking about, isn't it, Ray? | ||
| Yeah, I had to talk about time travel with Dr. Michael George, who you might want to get on sometime. | ||
| We've already had him on. | ||
| He has hypothesized that they may be from our future. | ||
| They may be asked from our future, coming back to get There are a lot of answers, or possible speculative answers that you can give, but you can't really prove any. | ||
| All you can say is that there is a phenomenon going on, and if you accept at face value what's going on, that they're very interested in our reproductive systems and our reproductive material. | ||
| I guess that's as far as anybody can go. | ||
| Then you can start speculating why. | ||
| Uh, and, uh, all depends on how much you take at face value that the abductees, uh, tell you as well. | ||
| So, uh, you know, as an investigator, uh, reporter, uh, one can only, you know, uh, record what has, uh, allegedly happened and, uh, maybe do some speculating, but really, you know, not coming to any specific provable conclusion. | ||
| Well, at least you're having a nice, you're holding a nice open mind about all this. | ||
| And I think that's to be applauded because I'm desperately afraid that a lot of the rest of the UFO community, for years and years, concentrating on a very narrow area of physical evidence, may have missed something very important. | ||
| I think the same thing with medical doctors. | ||
| For years, they ignored the near-death experience because they had been trained that things like that just don't happen. | ||
| They must be hallucinatory. | ||
| Just as doctors ignore alternative treatments that many times are very effective. | ||
| Oh, but now you have medical doctors writing books on NDEs. | ||
| Exactly. | ||
| You know, it's got out of the grassroots interest and into the medical, you know, profession. | ||
| I think the same thing is happening with the abduction experience. | ||
| It's getting into the area of health professionals. | ||
| Well, look at Dr. Mack at Harvard University, who would have ever thought that The professor of psychiatry at Harvard University would become an abduction researcher. | ||
| Precisely. | ||
| All right. | ||
| Short on time. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Welcome. | |
| Good evening from Jackie Vaughn's Plaza Hotel. | ||
| You're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
| Where are you calling from, please? | ||
|
unidentified
|
San Diego. | |
| San Diego. | ||
| Go ahead. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Yes. | |
| What can you tell us about Area 51? | ||
| Nothing. | ||
| He can tell you nothing. | ||
| And if he did know something with the security clearances he had, he could probably not tell you. | ||
| Thank you. | ||
| I don't know anything about it, even with the security clearances, except for the rumors that come out of there, and I consider them rumors until I see something more substantial. | ||
| Alright. | ||
| Wild Card Line 3, good evening, you're on the air with Ray Fowler. | ||
|
unidentified
|
I'm calling from Reno. | |
| Reno, Nevada, yes. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Ray? | |
| Yes? | ||
|
unidentified
|
Have the aliens told anybody anything telling or profound? | |
| Other than just directions to lay on the table and remember anything? | ||
| Have they communicated anything? | ||
| That's a good question. | ||
| What have they said, Ray? | ||
| Well, again, it may reflect the personality or belief system of the individuals. | ||
| For example, Betty Andreasen has indicated on several occasions that they equate themselves with the origin of the Part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition. | ||
| But, you know, that's... You can't prove something like that. | ||
| As I mentioned before, when you have something like this happen, not only with Betty or someone else, you have three alternatives. | ||
| You can say that the individual is superimposing their own religious belief system over the phenomenon. | ||
| You can say the phenomenon knows about the belief system of the individual and is using it as part of their control system. | ||
| Or you can say that, yeah, they are part and parcel of the Judeo-Christian tradition and the aerial phenomena reported in the Bible, allegedly, and so forth. | ||
| I don't know. | ||
| Oh, and people ask that question about these profound things coming out. | ||
| Those are the profound things that are coming out. | ||
| That's fairly profound, actually. | ||
| Oh, it's very profound. | ||
| And as I mentioned at the MIT conference afterwards, a bunch of the experts got together and they | ||
| said, well, when things like that come out, that's a danger. | ||
| We don't want to talk about this. | ||
| We ignore this stuff and get on with the real work. | ||
| Oh, you've got to take everything into consideration, and you might not believe it to be so. | ||
| You at least included it as part of your baseline. | ||
| Indeed. | ||
| On line two, good evening, you're on the air with Ray Feller. | ||
|
unidentified
|
Uh, hello. | |
| Hello. | ||
| Uh, I was sleeping, uh, about three, four years ago. | ||
| I woke up, had to tell them to look down. | ||
| I looked down, turned my back, stretched out in bed, still asleep. | ||
| I was literally sitting there, Beside myself, watching myself, sleeping. | ||
| Then the wall in front of me lit up and turned an intense bright white. | ||
| And then, black hole images, black hole images, appeared in this world of light. | ||
| And, uh, the images, they seem to be symbolic or symbols of, uh, events or things that happened during the course of my life. | ||
| But I was so freaked out about what happened, what I was looking at. | ||
| Colin, I'm curious, how did you end up with that impression from the Black Crowes that it was symbolic of events in your life? | ||
| Was this just a feeling or was it... | ||
|
unidentified
|
They were like, uh... | |
| They were almost like pictures of, uh... | ||
| of, um... | ||
| There was one particular image that still stays with me because when I saw this, | ||
| I couldn't sit there and look at it. | ||
| Alright, caller, I'm terribly sorry. | ||
| We're at the end of the program and I'm going to have to go. | ||
| Thank you very much for the call. | ||
| Is that, from what you heard, Ray? | ||
| Oh, it's similar to someone who's had a near-death experience and had their whole life flashed before them. | ||
| I think what he was going to say that he freaked out and somehow just puffed back into his body again before he saw anything else, but I'm not sure exactly what he was going to say. | ||
| All right, well, I guess we're not going to be this week. | ||
| Ray, it has been a pleasure, and there's just not enough time to explore these sorts of areas fully. | ||
| You need hours more, maybe days or weeks, but the time is up. | ||
| The clock is a clock, and I've got to go. | ||
| You can give a plug for the Allagash Abductions by Wildflower Press, Tigard, Oregon sometime during your program. | ||
| It'd be appreciated. | ||
| Well, you just did. | ||
| Okay. | ||
| Ray Fowler, thanks a million. | ||
| Okie doke, thanks. | ||
| Take care. | ||
| And that's Area 2000. | ||
| As I said, I'm really sorry that we don't have more time, but we don't. | ||
| That's it. | ||
| Thank you, folks. |
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