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Sept. 22, 2024 - Where There's Woke - Thomas Smith

47:30

WTW63: This Is Her Story To Tell... But I'm Telling It

Part 7 of our series Jon Ronson's Things Fell Apart Falls Apart The finale on the awful anti-trans chapter of Jon Ronson's pocdcast series. It continues to get worse, and we finally get to hear Lydia's bombshell clip. If you enjoy our work, please consider leaving a 5-star review! You can always email questions, comments, and leads to lydia@seriouspod.com. Please pretty please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com/wherethereswoke!

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	What's so scary about the woke mob?
	across Houston.
	You can get expert care everywhere.
	That's the difference between practicing medicine and leading it.
	Houston Methodist, leading medicine.
	What's so scary about the woke mob?
	How often you just don't see them coming.
	Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see Woke principles being pushed.
	Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down.
	The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything.
	Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green Eminem will now wear sneakers.
	Hello, and welcome to Where There's Woke.
	This is episode 63, the final January Littlejohning.
	So we get a nice, healthy bout of transphobia as always, and we can't understand why on earth John decided to do this story in this way.
	Oh, I've gotten ahead of myself.
	I'm Thomas.
	That over there is an expert in January Littlejohn.
	God.
	January Littlejohn's biographer, Lydia Smith.
	Oh my God, if I get paid for it, I mean, that's fine, but I would be perfectly fine never thinking about or talking about January Little John ever again.
	We could see if the Russians want to pay you to do it, because that, I mean, look, we're not going to go full evil, but when we saw how much those conservatives like Dave Rubin were making from the Russians, Maybe we could like contract a little bit, you know?
	Yeah.
	Hey, we're going to cover her anyway, so we'll cut like a favorable one.
	No, we can't do it.
	It's too evil.
	No, but I'm going to be honest, right?
	It's the good, the bad, and the ugly.
	Good thing.
	I'm assuming they're not going to pay.
	For us to do the opposite of what they want to do.
	So I was, I mean, yeah, those Russians sticklers, I think.
	Fine.
	Yeah.
	Oh, well, we'll just have to settle for the amazing support of our patrons at patreon.com slash where there's woke, who also got to hear this in one fell swoop and didn't have to hear any ads.
	So join their ranks.
	And thanks for supporting the show patrons who didn't hear this.
	Nevermind.
	I don't know.
	They're in my prayers.
	Maybe they're listening to it on the ad version too.
	Can't wait to get to the final part here after this break.
	Let's do it.
	With hundreds of doors across Houston, you can get expert care everywhere.
	That's the difference between practicing medicine and leading it.
	Houston Methodist, leading medicine.
	So in fairness to John, he does recognize and say that she's an activist.
	Okay.
	But like, what kind of activists?
	Are all activists equal?
	If you're a women's rights activist, is that the same as a men's rights activist?
	If you're a civil rights activist, is that the same as a white rights activist?
	Would those be the same?
	Activist is a very broad thing to maybe be, I guess.
	And it sure seems like, it sure seems like he's painting this, especially by the description that we read a lot earlier, which if you'll remember, was the story of how a difficult relationship between a mother and her child that fell apart during lockdown was inflamed by politicians and journalists, which I don't know what that is.
	We have no idea what he's talking about there.
	Powerful culture warriors with vested interests.
	Now, I don't think he's just talking about the right there.
	It sure sounds both sidesy.
	But really, January is a mother and an activist.
	And activism is often all about using words that escalate things, that up the temperature.
	For instance, despite Brandon saying... There is a concerted right-wing effort right now to paint transgender people as contagious, as a virus in society.
	I'm sorry, what?
	I'm sorry, what?
	We're setting up on both sides.
	Clearly, we're setting up on both sides.
	And he's doing the left side first.
	And by left, I mean just like the human fucking not anti-LGBTQ side.
	He's doing that side first.
	For instance, here's this awful rhetoric, which is honestly just a truthful statement that the right is trying to say that there's a contagion.
	That's the one side.
	That's the first side.
	Despite him saying that.
	Despite him saying that.
	So, despite him saying that.
	That's very chosen.
	By the way, this is all scripted.
	He's not me.
	To paint transgender people as contagious, as a virus in society.
	Despite saying that.
	So despite him saying that, that's very chosen.
	By the way, this is all scripted.
	Yep.
	He's not me.
	He doesn't go off the cuff.
	This is scripted by multiple people who are fact checking it and that kind of thing.
	Despite him saying that.
	So what's the despite?
	So if you start with despite, despite him saying X, actually not X, is kind of what you would think logically is the thing there.
	So what is the not X?
	Despite him saying that, what is the not X?
	For instance, despite Brandon saying... There is a concerted right-wing effort right now to paint transgender people as contagious, as a virus in society.
	It hadn't been crazy for her to worry about her going through a phase... Influenced by her friend group.
	I just want to point out the dichotomy there.
	It hadn't been crazy for her to worry about her going through a phase.
	Influenced by her friend group.
	I just want to point out the dichotomy there.
	Yeah.
	Either the thing he said, which is there's a concerted right wing effort to paint Brandon's a contagion.
	Or, well, no, actually, no, it's reasonable to be worried about this thing.
	But that's not the dichotomy here.
	The dichotomy here is, is what Brandon's saying true or reasonable?
	Or is it just trying to inflame?
	Is he just trying to inflame?
	Right.
	Is he trying to inflame?
	That's what he's saying.
	Are those words upping the temperature?
	Yeah.
	Is that trying to up the temperature?
	Or is that just him pointing out what the right is doing?
	Like, honestly, I just don't understand it.
	I mean, if you point out what the right-wing fucking fascist side is doing in any of these things, in January 6th, in whatever it is, are you upping the temperature by calling it out?
	And then setting on the other side, oh, this other side is just a mother being concerned.
	Is that what happened?
	You sure about that?
	You sure about that?
	Because what it sounded to me like it happened is it is a mother who, yeah, sure, maybe she started off concerned.
	Then she lied and became an activist and endorsed even worse lies by Governor DeSantis and stood behind him while he signed a don't say gay bill and, and, and, and, and.
	That's the actual both sides.
	You want to talk about the both sides of the activist?
	Hey, activists on both sides, they inflame.
	Look at how much he had to skew January's side to even come close to both-sizing this one.
	This is fucking bad.
	This is bad journalism.
	This is not good.
	That both-sizing is terrible.
	On the one side, one statement that he said that's a fact statement that's actually describing what's happening, On the other side, it was just a concern.
	Just not crazy for her to be concerned.
	Yeah, it wasn't crazy for her to be concerned.
	I agree.
	I actually agree.
	Not crazy for her to be concerned.
	You know what was fucking crazy?
	Everything else she did was becoming an anti-trans, anti-LGBTQ activist, becoming a tool of the right and lying about saying her school just decided her child identified differently.
	Just decided.
	She just endorses that like, that's the shit that's fucking insane.
	Do you want to both sides this?
	Well, how about you actually present both sides?
	You want to get even more upset?
	Uh, no.
	I don't know.
	Can the, can the fucking audio handle it?
	I don't know.
	I'll try.
	I don't know.
	You might have to leave the room.
	Jesus fucking Christ.
	Go ahead and pull up the link I sent you.
	Okay.
	So we had mentioned that January gave, you know, speeches and presentations.
	This was a presentation that she did November 12th, 2021.
	Ooh, November 12th, 2021, huh?
	Yeah, the month after they filed their lawsuit against the school district.
	But for sure before we're hearing her interviewed on this, right?
	Significantly before.
	And for sure before we're hearing Brandon on this, right?
	Yes.
	Jon Ronson had said he spent 10 months working on this project, and it came out the beginning of 2024.
	So this was absolutely before he began working on this.
	This is with the Florida Family Policy Council, and the title of this event was Empowering Parents to Protect Children, Responding to Critical Race Theory.
	That kind of gives you an idea of how old it is.
	But she was just a concerned parent about transition.
	Oh, never mind.
	She's actually just a fucking fascist activist.
	Yeah, and transgender ideology.
	So she'll speak a little bit here.
	We can see what she really thinks.
	Oh, okay.
	Can't wait to hear.
	This is awesome.
	What my husband and I learned after months and months of research is the following.
	There has been a sharp increase in teen girls suddenly becoming distressed about their gender and coming out as transgender.
	If you're unfamiliar with the work of Dr. Lisa Littman or Abigail Schreier, please look into their work.
	They have pioneered research in this area and uncovered what Dr. Littman coins as rapid-onset gender dysphoria.
	And this phenomenon has become a social contagion among teen girls.
	What?
	And now we are seeing teen boys as well.
	Hey, so, you know, Brandon literally said, paint transgender people as contagious as a virus in society.
	She literally says social contagion in this speech that, by the way, when you sort by view count, this would have been the number one video on YouTube with her name.
	I did not have to look very hard to find this.
	I just typed in her name.
	This isn't like an obscure, secret, fucking patron-only video.
	Exactly.
	This is available.
	This was available to John Ronson, where she literally says the phrase, social contagion.
	Now, the other piece of this that I've been putting pins in along the way is she absolutely believes in rapid onset gender dysphoria, which is medical misinformation.
	This is fake.
	It's completely fake.
	And John Bronson has specifically said, in issues of medical misinformation, he probably would not both sides because it's dangerous.
	Never, never does he ever call this out in the episode.
	And, in fact, parrots her insinuations when he's talking to Brandon, when he's presenting this information to the audience.
	That is dangerous.
	It's dangerous.
	And like I said, she knows who she is talking to here.
	And that's why she never says R-O-G-D or Rapid Onset or anything like that with Jon Ronson.
	By the way, for all we know, she did and he cut it.
	I don't know.
	It could be.
	It could be.
	But now those insinuations, that subtle rhetoric is now being absorbed by the audience.
	And unknowingly, unwittingly, they might parrot this stuff too.
	And what damage is that doing to trans youth now?
	Yeah, it is not responsible to help in this effort to disguise radical views as moderate views.
	Yeah.
	That is a tool that has been used forever.
	Oh, hey, I'm not racist.
	I'm just worried about, like, I mean, have you seen the numbers of, like, You know, white men commit suicide more often.
	Like, is it not reasonable to be worried about, like, the difference in suicide rate?
	And it's like, OK, if I'm helping you to actually conceal the fact that in your off time, not in whatever interview this is, you're marching with a fucking Klan, I'm not doing a good thing.
	Unbelievable.
	So it's hard to resist repeating myself because you just heard her say the thing that he said.
	We have to listen to this one more time.
	I'm so sorry.
	And activism is often all about using words that escalate things, that up the temperature.
	For instance, despite Brandon saying... There is a concerted right-wing effort right now to paint transgender people as contagious, as a virus in society.
	Jesus fucking Christ.
	Yeah.
	The best, thinnest little thing you could hang on to is, well, she said social contagion, not a literal virus.
	And if that's the fucking hill he wants to die on, like, be my guest, man.
	That is... Because this is fucking nuts.
	You're both sides-ing is that one side is calling a very vulnerable group of people a social contagion and is endorsing very harmful stuff about trans people that's fake.
	Medical misinformation, rapid onset gender dysphoria is not a real thing.
	It's not fucking real.
	She's gotten to the point where you've already admitted she has helped cause Florida not use the expert consensus anymore when treating trans youth.
	Now they do some fucking other thing.
	They're not getting the medical care that they need.
	On the other side of all that, wow, but Brandon said that they're doing this.
	Literally, Brandon is doing fucking journalism, John.
	Brandon is saying what things are.
	He's just saying his statement was not to inflame and to fucking cause division.
	He's literally just reporting more accurately than you are what the other side is saying.
	Unbelievable.
	Un-fucking-lievable.
	This is staggering.
	I don't think this is an accident.
	This is not an accident.
	You don't accidentally waltz into both sides in this issue in this very deliberate way.
	You have helped hide her more radical, hateful agenda.
	You've helped her disguise that as just concerned.
	Let's just, uh... Not crazy.
	To worry!
	Not crazy to worry.
	Not crazy to worry.
	was going through a phase influenced by her friend group.
	Not crazy to worry.
	And January, in turn, makes it sound like stories like hers were sweeping Leon County's schools.
	They have infiltrated the classrooms, and they are usurping parental authority.
	But according to the school district, there were fewer than 10 LGBTQ support plans among a population of 33.
	There you go!
	Wow!
	And the boundaries of facts and fairness are pushed up so hard, the ripples can send people haywire.
	I don't understand what his point is there.
	How are you both sides in this?
	Like just, my guy, how are you fucking both sides in this?
	Yeah, I saw in a different place the superintendent come out and say when he did a review, it looked like about five in the entire district of 33,000 students.
	Boy, that is fucking, this is, I don't, this is like one of the worst both sides thing I've ever heard.
	For one thing, you set her up as the other side is being concerned.
	And then in the very next sentence, you acknowledge, oh, but she's not just being concerned.
	She's also lying and doing a bunch of other stuff.
	And also that thing that she was concerned about, you've also set up that it's objectively wrong.
	So it's not crazy for her to be concerned about a thing that's objectively wrong.
	And that's the other side of the activism thing.
	Like it's, this is, The worst both sides thing I've ever seen in my life.
	This is unbelievable.
	Yeah.
	One thing that Ronson mentioned in this that I do want to touch on a little bit more because it didn't get a ton of play is the lawsuit that happened.
	So the Little Johns... We love a good lawsuit here.
	We do love a good lawsuit.
	They sued the school district, Leon County School District, and like the board and the superintendent in his, you know, own capacity, et cetera, et cetera, Rocky Hanna, great name.
	And with this lawsuit, Bronson acknowledges it.
	He does not say who is their counsel.
	And when I looked into this a little bit, the folks that are representing them are the Child and Parental Rights Campaign, led by Vernadette Broyles.
	Vernadette?
	Vernadette.
	That's kind of a cool name, actually.
	And this is the same entity that represents Jamie Reed, the whistleblower out of Missouri that, you know, released a bunch of people's medical information.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	The what?
	The whistleblower?
	Whistleblower, yes.
	It is under the Whistleblower Act that she pursued her complaint.
	So that's why I'm calling it a whistleblower.
	It's not really a whistleblower.
	Well, I don't know.
	Protections under the Whistleblower Act.
	So these are not Impartial folks.
	These are people who have an agenda themselves.
	Incredibly anti-trans.
	That is their primary goal in life.
	And on their website, it says, you know, under like the campaign that they follow, gender identity is a psychological phenomenon.
	It is not found anywhere in the body, the brain or in the DNA.
	And there is no objective medical scan or test that can detect or validate it.
	And I was like, when I read that, I was like, yeah, because gender is a construct.
	Yeah, I think.
	I could be wrong, but I think yes.
	Same with ADHD.
	There are a lot of things, there's a tremendous amount of things that we don't have any of that for that are very real.
	Depression, I think.
	Most, and I don't want to just use negative things, just things involving our brains in that way.
	Often we can't just do a scan and be like, this is what this is.
	Yeah.
	I see it right there.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But, like, you wouldn't say any of those things isn't real.
	That'd be insane.
	Right.
	That'd be really stupid.
	It would be really stupid.
	You can't pee on something and then it tells you what gender you are.
	That's true.
	Yeah, and they went through this lawsuit back and forth.
	This is where I found, like, the support plan.
	It was an exhibit as part of this lawsuit.
	And the school district ended up filing a motion to dismiss, and that was granted.
	It hinged on a couple different issues.
	One was that some of the folks have qualified immunity based on their role in the district, so the superintendent, for example.
	Yeah, that's fine.
	And also that the board does not have qualified immunity, but it hinged on this issue that what occurred, the standard is shocking the conscience, and it did not shock the conscience when you read the facts.
	And that's required with executive action.
	So obviously the Little Johns are not happy about it that the lawsuit has been dismissed.
	So they have filed an appeal with the 11th Circuit.
	Oral arguments happened in about mid-April, but there is no decision yet.
	I've been checking kind of every other day, and as of right now, there is no decision.
	I don't know what the timeline is on that.
	We'll see.
	But as part of that appeal, everyone filed an amicus brief, including the Manhattan Institute, Goldwater Institute, the Institute for Faith and Family, the Parental Rights Foundation, Concerned Women for America, Alliance Defending Freedom, of course, and one of my favorite, State of Montana and Florida and 19 other states.
	Lots of material there.
	I guess we'll see how the appeal works out and what the next steps are going to be, but this is not over.
	This is not over at all.
	It's pretty much over.
	I don't know that it is.
	Why?
	Didn't it get dismissed?
	They appealed it and we're waiting for the appeal to come through.
	Yeah, but you can always appeal that.
	This is a bad lawsuit.
	There's nothing there.
	Yeah, I guess I don't disagree.
	But I think that what we are going to see is this kind of stuff happen more and more and more frequently.
	And eventually this is going to make its way to the Supreme Court.
	And I'm honestly, like, pretty nervous about that.
	I think I saw today there's something on the shadow docket regarding trans youth.
	So I don't know.
	Yeah.
	And then just, you know, quick shout out to Rocky Hanna, the superintendent out in Leon County.
	He ended up getting penalized by the Florida Department of Education when they investigated his professional conduct because when the Don't Say Gay Bill passed, he was like encouraging the schools.
	He's like, don't worry about it.
	A memo that he wrote to teachers ahead of Don't Say Gay Bill, you know, being implemented in schools where he wrote, you do you.
	And the district would defend them if they messed up.
	Oh, okay.
	So you're saying, like, ignore it?
	Yeah.
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah.
	And so the Department of Education launched an investigation after a Moms4Liberty executive board member for the Leon County chapter wrote a letter to Ron DeSantis, and apparently it was stamped, Let's Go Brandon.
	These are unserious people.
	But it's scary because they have aligned to a point I wanted to make at the beginning.
	When we're equating, when we're both sides in this, it's about how two sets of equally held convictions collided with each other from Ronson.
	What?
	Only one has power.
	Yeah.
	Only one has power.
	Well, you know, I understand the left-wing activists on they were able to make some recommendations That were then abandoned.
	Yeah, and then laws were put in place so the recommendations aren't allowed anymore.
	But we don't know how many children they single-handedly transgendered, though.
	Like, we don't know, in the unmarked vans, how many of them they removed their genitals.
	So crazy.
	We don't know.
	But Rocky Hanna has persisted.
	He is still the superintendent running for reelection, I believe.
	Yeah.
	He had to agree to various sanctions.
	And I think he had like a formal reprimand and things like that.
	But he did not lose his certification or anything like that.
	Yeah.
	It's it's crazy.
	Leon County.
	Who would have thought?
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	Equally held convictions.
	Yeah, one is trans people exist and the other is fucking we're not even allowed to say gay in a school.
	We're not allowed to like.
	Yeah.
	What the fuck are you talking about?
	So crazy.
	When the boundaries of facts and fairness are pushed up so hard, the ripples can send people haywire.
	By who?
	Which people?
	Hi Lisa, welcome.
	Hi, Merry Christmas.
	Merry Christmas to you.
	Still wrapping my brain around this a little bit, but yesterday I heard something.
	Take the day in December 2021, when a Michigan mother, Lisa Hansen, stood up at her school board meeting.
	I heard that at least one of our schools in our town has, in one of the unisex bathrooms, a litter box for the kids that identify as cats.
	I know it's going on nationwide.
	I know it is.
	It's part of the agenda that's being pushed.
	I don't even want to understand it.
	But I think that people need to be aware of it, because I am really upset as a parent that my child is put in an environment like that.
	It was an extraordinary claim.
	An American mother was saying that cat litter boxes, the places where cats use the toilet, were being put into schools for use by pupils who identify as cats.
	This was, as far as we can tell, the first time this allegation was made.
	But after that, it spread fast.
	Here's Nebraska State Senator Bruce Bosselman.
	Schoolchildren dress up as animals during the school day They meow and they bark, and now schools are wanting to put litter boxes in the schools for these children to use.
	How is this sanitary?
	I even heard that a student identified as a cat.
	I forgot, I didn't realize, like, hey, no problem with all that, but like, sanitation-wise, like that, I mean, come on.
	Who's in charge of changing it?
	So the student went in and defecated on the floor.
	Really.
	Really?
	Wow.
	Really.
	That's unbelievable.
	And here's the hugely successful podcaster, Joe Rogan.
	My friend, his wife, is a schoolteacher.
	Oh wow!
	And she works at a school that had to install a litter box in the girls' room because there's a girl who's a furry who identifies as an animal and her mother badgered the school until they agreed to put a litter box in one of the stalls.
	This stuff weaves like a joke, but it's really not funny when you get into the weeds of it.
	This is limitless self-identity gone bonkers.
	Talking in cat language, including meowing, that is not just having a bit of fun being a cat, that is actually assuming the identity of an animal that this person is not, and then insisting everybody else conform to it.
	Oh my god.
	Why?!
	Just say no it's a lie and move on!
	- In viral, this story is gone.
	God!
	A great effort has been made by American journalists to track down a school where children identify as cats and are provided with litter boxes.
	- Just say no, it's a lie and move on. - The United States have been stusionized.
	Leads followed, rumors investigated, and no litter boxes have been found anywhere, except for here. - I'm Ryan Price and I teach high school English in Vacaville, California at a school called Buckingham Collegiate Charter Academy.
	When this rumour started to flourish, people looked far and wide for examples of classrooms where it may be true.
	And the closest that they got to was your classroom.
	Will you tell me the story?
	Well, OK, so I have a popular social media account that I post to.
	So I made a video that I posted on my TikTok, which was just making light of the fact that students go to the bathroom too much during class just to get out of class.
	So I told them I'd set up a private bathroom in the classroom where they could use a bucket and I would have a privacy screen set up for them and all this stuff.
	It was just meant to be funny.
	But people thought it was real.
	And commentators wanted to know why.
	Was it because his students identified as cats?
	And so I made a follow-up video explaining why we have these emergency buckets in the classroom.
	It's because of school shootings, you guys.
	Right?
	And I hate to just say it bluntly like that, but when I first started teaching, we didn't have these buckets in the classroom, but now every classroom has a bucket like this in there.
	That's the reality of school in America, right?
	Ryan means that the buckets are emergency toilets in case students have to hide from a shooter for a long period.
	So people being upset about our bucket video, they're upset about the wrong thing.
	Imagine a custodian going and cleaning litter boxes all day.
	Imagine kids who are already so self-conscious, suddenly feeling comfortable enough to use the bathroom in a litter box in the classroom.
	It's just absurd.
	When it became clear that the litterbox rumours were a myth, Joe Rogan, a Nebraska state senator, retracted their comments.
	But there's surely people out there who still believe it, given the dizzying way that the gender wars are fought.
	For me, the litterbox story is a reminder that we can all fall for moral panics.
	Really?
	We can all?
	Oh!
	So here's the thing.
	All fall for moral panics, except you have Joe Rogan, for example, saying, my friend's wife is a teacher and she witnessed this and he told me about it and asserting it as truth, as knowledge that he knows because of these individuals.
	And then when it's called out as like, this is fake, this is a lie, then he just says, got it wrong.
	No, you literally lied.
	You made up information for what?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	But he's going to say, yeah.
	And also here's Brandon saying, you know, they're making up stories about litter boxes.
	So really it's the same thing.
	Yeah.
	Like I want to know what is going to be the both sides of this.
	Why the fuck are we talking about this at all?
	Like why, why are we putting this in the context of the stronger person's convictions, the more they will succumb to untruths.
	Yeah.
	I don't think that's true.
	I am incredibly, incredibly convicted on some issues like, for one, reproductive freedom, I don't know, anti-racism, other stuff.
	Like, does that correlate with me believing on truths?
	No.
	Seems like the real correlation is whether or not you are part of a fucking culture war that's trying to attempt a fascist takeover of the goddamn country and is part of a mass misinformation network In the interest of furthering that goal, that strikes me as like we talk about risk factors.
	I don't think that if you study this objectively, you would find that strength of conviction is the key variable.
	It kind of matters which side you're on in this whole world.
	Because please, please, please, John, give me your both sides here.
	What's what's the left side of this cat box story at all?
	Do your very best.
	What is the left side of it?
	It's not real.
	Here's the thing, though.
	I actually think this is very intentional.
	I think that he is front-loading with this litter box story, in addition to that being kind of like a semi-interesting detail.
	The shooting thing is kind of weird to me, by the way.
	I'm like semi-skeptical of that because it just seems like, I don't know, like how often is that?
	Whatever.
	Do they also have like food rations?
	I don't know.
	Maybe, yeah.
	Maybe, but it's also, something about that guy is a little bit weird to me.
	Like, I'm not sure how much I trust that, but neither here nor there.
	That doesn't matter.
	The cat boxes thing isn't real.
	That doesn't matter at all.
	Right.
	But we're hearing this, and I can tell you rhetorically, back when I was a fucking awful centrist, The thing that you do is when you want to criticize one side, you start by, it's the compliment sandwich, essentially.
	You start by starting off with the other side and like, oh, here's this ridiculous thing that this side does.
	Now that I've earned a little cred with that, here's my critique that I'm a little bit more scared to make about the other side.
	I can tell you that that is a very real way that people will present stuff like this.
	It's natural.
	I mean, it's a decent enough rhetorical technique.
	And it can be used responsibly, like to try to build rapport on one side so that you can then use that rapport to critique that side.
	Yeah.
	And so what comes after this?
	And the stronger a person's conviction, the more likely they come to untruths.
	And, as Ryan the teacher says, the litterbox story was always, when he took a moment to think about it, very implausible.
	But I think this has also been a story about how there's sometimes a reluctance to accept that young children can be influenced by the media and friend groups and schools can get caught in the middle, unsure of the best thing to do.
	And in the midst of it all is a child who, presumably, never wanted to be a pebble thrown in a pond, creating all of those ripples.
	Yeah, so do you see what I mean there with that technique?
	Like you've set up a ridiculous litter box story, right?
	Am I right?
	Yeah, but also, this is also a story of, eh, you know, like maybe the other side is, and what does he say?
	It was always, when you took a moment to think about it, very implausible.
	Yeah, implausible.
	But I think this has also been a story about how there's sometimes a reluctance to accept that young children can be influenced by the media.
	Okay, who is that side?
	Because I didn't hear anything in this episode about that.
	Did you hear anything about that?
	No.
	I mean, I know he's ostensibly saying that that's, you know, when he's both sides-ing, on the one hand, you have this fucking nonsense mess, and then on the other hand, you have, well, there's a reluctance to admit.
	Listen to how fucking passive he has to get and how, like, how much he has to minimize there.
	There can be a reluctance to admit that children can be influenced by the media.
	No, there's not.
	What are you talking about?
	Did we hear any interview where Brandon or whoever's on that side was like, children are never influenced by media.
	Yeah.
	Not at all.
	I don't think anybody in their right mind would say that.
	I mean, that's always been the case.
	It's a very impressionable time.
	Yeah, it's a good sign that you're perhaps inappropriately both sides-ing.
	As if the version of the other side you have to make is fucking... Listen how watered down that shit is.
	Listen to how homeopathic we get here with the watering down.
	You know, it's like one part per trillion of this statement.
	There's also been a story about how there's sometimes a reluctance to accept that young children can be influenced.
	I know.
	It feels like that comes out of left field.
	Like, I don't understand why that was, again, scripted into this episode.
	Yeah, this is, I tell you strategically as a rhetorical bit of writing, this is 100% trying to sneak in a criticism of the trans side as softly as you can.
	But the way you know it's bullshit is like, if that were really your concern, if that were really your concern, As stated, facially, okay, I'm just going to take you at your word.
	No one would ever say that.
	Well, I'm concerned that some people are reluctant to admit that children can be influenced by the media or their friends.
	Nobody holds that position.
	You can only be referring to an endorsement of the idea, and maybe he doesn't want to go all the way, whatever, You can only be referring to, well, what that really means is there's rapid onset gender dysphoria and that does happen.
	That can only be what you mean.
	Because the thing you actually said in your script was nothing.
	That's actually nothing.
	Right.
	Literally fucking nothing.
	So what are you really meaning?
	I'm not crazy to Read into that, because the only plausible reading is reading into it.
	Well, especially when he parrots the insinuations throughout the episode, too.
	Like, it really does feel like he is sympathetic to that medical misinformation, and he might believe it.
	I don't know.
	It is the only thing that makes any of this make sense.
	That's the thing.
	Like, he has been very careful, I think, because he does seem to be scared of being seen a certain way, I think.
	Yeah.
	But the only way that doing any of this makes any fucking sense is if that is where you're coming from.
	Unsure of the best thing to do.
	And in the midst of it all is a child who presumably never wanted to be a pebble thrown in a pond, creating all of those ripples.
	How's your child doing now?
	I appreciate you asking that question.
	I'm very protective over her privacy.
	This is her story to tell.
	She has desisted.
	This is her story to tell.
	Nevermind, I just told the entire thing on a BBC podcast.
	And tell everywhere I can.
	What a weird thing to say.
	This is her story to tell.
	You know the story I just told you?
	That's her story to tell.
	What?
	Oh, so was this off the record then?
	What?
	Kind of confusion over her sex, but that is all I would say.
	It's taken a very long time and a very long road.
	Well, that's weird.
	I have a question.
	Why would that be?
	It sounds like you've won January.
	You've convinced her, it sounds like by your telling, that she wasn't ever trans.
	Aren't you the hero of this story?
	What is the residual problem there?
	To me, it sounds like maybe the daughter doesn't agree with you on this, possibly.
	Or that they resent their mom using their story for all of these things and never correcting the record with what Ron DeSantis is saying in very public situations.
	Like, yeah.
	At the very least, I would hope that January's kid is not happy about that, because that is honestly very fucked up.
	Well, it's her story to tell, so.
	Yeah.
	I guess we'll hear from her.
	I don't know.
	Or not.
	Very weird.
	All right.
	There we go.
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	I do have just a couple little parting words.
	Yeah, I do want to ask.
	I heard her use the phrase that her daughter has desisted.
	Yeah.
	That's weird.
	No follow-ups on that by John.
	What is that?
	I don't know what that means.
	Yeah, desistance is for all the anti-trans folks, it is something where you specifically The definition is related to criminalization, the process of abstaining from crime or antisocial behavior.
	And what is meant in the anti-trans space is that they no longer identify as being transgender.
	They do not have gender dysphoria and they are aligned with the sex assigned at birth, essentially.
	But the point of that kind of terminology, because like a normal fucking thing would be, oh, they're not trans.
	Yeah.
	Not, like, cease and desist?
	Oh, yeah.
	No, it's very loaded.
	Yeah, no, yeah.
	I'm just emphasizing, like, the language is meant to suggest that there's an effort that they've resisted.
	You know, like, someone was trying to turn them trans and they desisted.
	Yeah.
	And so this is something that is very popular.
	Chloe Cole, you know, is a pretty famous anti-trans activist who identified as transgender, ended up having a double mastectomy and then desisted.
	And so this is someone that the right loves.
	And she goes around the country and participates in like Daily Wire stuff, like everything.
	But this idea of desisting is about becoming normal again, in quotes, right?
	Jesus Christ.
	Normal.
	Yeah, it's pretty messed up.
	And this is something where January is taking this word, this idea, and just literally, like, posts pictures of herself on Twitter holding signs about, you know, desisting and, you know, don't let them take our kids kind of thing.
	And she's posting these pictures everywhere.
	Yeah.
	It's a signal that she's a radical and John does not interrogate that at all.
	No, I think I just have one little like, man, it's like an action call to action, I guess, for folks or for the left in general.
	When we understand that when this situation occurs for parents, a lot of parents don't know what to do, how to handle it.
	Who to go to for help.
	They often turn to various support groups.
	And I was reading a New York Times article about a family kind of going through this situation in which the child did participate and, you know, got to share their feelings about whether or not they felt their parents were supportive, etc.
	But within the article, it talked about how When parents go to these support groups, and some of them consider themselves pretty liberal and stuff, but they don't know who to ask for help.
	In the support group itself, a lot of people are getting connected with the Child and Parental Rights Campaign.
	That's Bernadette Broyles, who is anti-trans.
	And was the counsel for January Littlejohn, counsel for Jamie Reid again, and they are getting connected to someone who is going to spout these well-crafted anti-trans rhetoric that might not initially sound very terrible, and then it pulls people in.
	And so I think the left needs to figure out, how can we intervene?
	How can we create a place that parents, when they're going through this and they get support from other parents, that we have entities that can also help support them as well.
	And then those are the things that are getting recommended to other parents.
	Yeah.
	Insane anti-trans group that is creating monsters out of people who might have been normal otherwise.
	Right.
	I think so.
	And I would say, this is my opinion, that those are places where we need to work with compassion and we need to like, I do actually think that's like the difference between perhaps driving a parent to one of those radicalized groups and not might be giving them at least the space to kind of grow and maybe be wrong a little bit about this very new issue.
	But again, That's a thing that is done in the privacy of one of those groups, or a session, or a therapy session, or something like that.
	And this, what January is doing, is anti-trans activism.
	Those aren't the same thing.
	And for him to keep explaining her away as just doing an innocent parent thing, when what she is is an anti-trans activist, it's very disingenuous.
	And I do think, too, that Part of that ability that you're talking about, it's almost like terrorist recruiting.
	Yeah.
	It's like, you know, radicalizing.
	It is.
	It is.
	Like, not exactly, but close, you know, like radicalizing.
	They start, they always say this, when they recruit people into these things, they start more normal and then they get more and more crazy.
	Nexium, volleyball.
	Yeah, any of that stuff.
	And I think what Jon Ronson is doing is actively contributing to that disguise.
	Yeah.
	Like he's actively helping them, sometimes they call it like hide their power level or whatever, like there's a better term for it.
	But I think that's a big issue with what he's doing here.
	Do you think he's doing that purposefully or accidentally?
	No, I think it's because of his centrism.
	The blind spot?
	Yeah, I think people like him think both sidesism, centrism is like the enlightened thing to do.
	It's the smarter thing to do.
	It seems more compassionate.
	And I think there could be contexts in which that's true, but we've reached a point of... Yeah, it's not the world we live in now.
	Yeah, it's not the world we live in.
	It's just not.
	And it's actively causing harm to pretend it is.
	Yep.
	And especially when the rates of suicide and abuse in the trans community are as horrific as they are, it's just incredibly dangerous.
	I think I've personally, I've made my judgment.
	Now this is, again, this is my opinion and I know that folks are so worried about being labeled something to the point where, you know, they do an incredibly obliquely and weirdly hiding in their criticism of the trans identity or whatever.
	I'm not interested in trying to label John Ronson for the purposes of cancellation or whatever, but what I am interested in, I'm extremely put off by people who won't just say what the fuck they're feeling and thinking.
	Especially when it's clearly a very controversial point of view.
	You're going to do a whole thing, but you can't just come out and say what your criticism is.
	My opinion is that whoever, whether it's John and or the people working on this, but ultimately it's him and someone else, I think, mainly doing the work, that this comes from a place of, if not transphobia, this comes from a transphobic curious place.
	This comes from a turfy place.
	It's the only way this makes sense to me.
	In my opinion, none of this makes sense without some weird motivation there that they're not willing to say.
	But so here's the thing.
	It doesn't make sense because if you look at his previous history, he had a big falling out with Graham Linehan.
	And what's interesting to me is that like Ronson has in previous places, it seems that he is aligned with what they refer to as trans rights activists.
	And I think that language is probably really strong.
	It feels to me, honestly, like Jon Ronson is living that both sides life and kind of evaluating, this is probably cynical, but evaluating the position of his audience for different things.
	And kind of like fluctuating just a tiny bit, just a tiny bit.
	I don't know that he necessarily holds those beliefs, but I also don't know that he holds the other beliefs.
	It's impossible to tell, and I think it's done purposefully.
	And I will say, Julie Bindel is an anti-trans individual out in the UK, and the way that she characterizes it Is that he's a coward and that he presents himself as pro-trans but it probably just has a lot to do with his US audience.
	Interesting.
	And I don't know if that's wrong.
	I don't know if that's wrong.
	He hasn't given us much indication to prove that it's wrong.
	I'll say that.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I haven't researched it, but did you come across any nice, like, strong pro-trans statements or anything?
	I don't know.
	Is there any evidence?
	No, I mean, like, he called out Graham Linehan, but everybody was calling out Graham Linehan.
	In what way?
	Graham Linehan tweeted out a picture of a women's basketball team with a trans woman standing among them.
	And John Ronson said he was acting like a bully.
	From my understanding, that kind of spiraled and things just sort of, things fell apart.
	I mean, yeah, credit where credit's due.
	Again, I think that's consistent with a, I don't know, like I would, I wish I, that's kind of the point of all this too.
	I wish I had a firm idea of where he stands because You could also take that to be like, all right, you're bullying as in this isn't worth saying or that, you know, it doesn't really, I mean, some amount of credit for it.
	Sure.
	But it also doesn't sound like he went out of his way to reaffirm the existence of trans people in any way.
	No.
	And it was done in a public forum of Twitter, which again, to my earlier point, like, I just don't know.
	I don't know what he truly believes.
	Yeah.
	And what he does for audience sake.
	I don't know.
	Well, I do know that this entire episode served the purpose of normalizing anti-trans bigotry and minimizing the horribleness of one side, while somehow both-sizing it with the people against trying to get trans kids to, I don't know, kill themselves?
	Yeah.
	To both sides that, and the both sides is him just pointing out, hey, there's an effort to make trans people look like a contagion.
	Which is something that objectively is true and is something that you found.
	That his guest actually said.
	Oh boy.
	That's not good.
	That's really bad.
	Yeah.
	Next time.
	Yeah.
	God knows what it'll be.
	be there's a plane to choose from hang on hunt Sorry, the kids are here.
	Guys, I'm working.
	Mommy, I want something.
	Okay, well, Mom and Dad will be done in a little bit, okay?
	Fuckin', I almost said J.R.R.
	Tolkien.
	What's her name?
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