The 4th part of our series Jon Ronson's Things Fell Apart Falls Apart Jon Ronson's grand theory of Judy Mikovitz is that she was a normal, accomplished scientist, until she was "arguably mistreated," after which she became the kind of person who would be the subject of Plandemic. This final episode completely disproves this theory. It also shows how incredibly dishonest Judy has been about her arrest, and why it was actually entirely reasonable that she was held for 5 days. (and, it was more like 4). Also, make sure to not fall for the fake endings. If you enjoy our work, please consider leaving a 5-star review! You can always email questions, comments, and leads to lydia@seriouspod.com. Please pretty please consider becoming a patron at patreon.com/wherethereswoke!
Anywhere you see diversity, equity, and inclusion, you see Marxism and you see woke principles being pushed.
Wokeness is a virus more dangerous than any pandemic hands down.
The woke monster is here and it's coming for everything.
Instead of go-go boots, the seductress green Eminem will now wear sneakers.
Hello and welcome to Where There's Woke.
This is episode 59.
Oh, it's part four.
Can you believe it?
Yeah.
It's part four of the We're Coming After You Honey episode two of Jon Ronson's Things Fell Apart season two.
I'm Thomas.
That's Lydia.
How you doing?
Hi.
Good.
Excited to hear more about Judy being arrested.
Yeah, this is the final part.
Or is it?
No, it's not the final part for everybody.
This is the final part officially.
Yes.
Where we're going to learn about this arrest story and White's bullshit, and then it goes on from there.
But in the subsequent amount of time that I'm too embarrassed to admit since we recorded this, God, it's been like 30 years.
I don't even remember when.
It's been a long time.
It's been a while.
I won't say on cover.
Look, we did extensive fact-checking and re-checking because when you're calling out someone for their bad fact-checking, you gotta make sure you do your good fact-checking, and we've done it.
And then some.
No one's perfect.
It's so weird.
There could be, who knows, if there's some detail we missed.
But in that process, there is so much more weird stuff about the arrest and about God knows what else that I'm also teasing that we're gonna have a bonus for patrons only.
Yeah.
Lydia and I are going to jump on for a bonus unofficial part five of this one that talks about, it's like the grab bag of weird crap and weird lies that we didn't really get to.
And like talking about some of the other players that aren't really related to the story from Jon Ronson's perspective, but it's really interesting and kind of helps, I think, illuminate the cast of this entire thing.
Yeah.
And it's going to be a lot of fun.
So that'll be after this one for patrons only at patreon.com slash where there's woke.
But in the meantime, we got to get to our final official part.
As far as you non-patrons know, it's the final part.
Don't tell them patrons.
It's the final part.
Let's get on over to Janessa and hear about this bullshit arrest story.
So we're going to talk about this arrest and stuff.
Let's start with the information we've been given, shall we?
Let's do it.
Okay.
Here's what we know from the show.
Judy wasn't quite clear with me why she was refusing to hand over the cell line, but I got the sense that by then she had grown mistrustful of anyone who might doubt her findings.
And she got desperate and she's screaming.
I said, no, he's not getting the cell line.
Yes.
It's in the freezer.
Yes.
I know where it is.
Yes.
You don't get it.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
She said, I'm tired of your insubordination.
You're fired.
I'm firing you for your insolence and insubordination.
After Judy was fired, things moved fast.
She wanted her research notebooks back from the lab.
She says because she was worried that they would be tampered with.
But now that she'd been fired, they were out of reach.
Until she got a call from her researcher, Max.
Max is a resourceful young man and he got into the lab.
It's about one in the morning, I said, Max, you've got to protect that data.
You've got to secure that data.
So he took the notebooks and he took them somewhere, home or his mother's house.
When the Whittemores discovered that the notebooks were gone, they filed a civil lawsuit against Judy for breach of contract.
A few days later, Reno police issued an arrest warrant against Judy, listing two felony charges, possession of stolen property and unlawful taking of data.
This must have been a very crushing time for you.
Well sure, it was very frightening.
We called my friend Robin, who had a boat in the harbor, and I said, Robin, is your boat unlocked?
And she said, yeah, Judy, it always is.
And I said, okay, can I stay on it for a few days?
So now, Judy was on the run, hiding out on a boat.
And so the police added a new charge.
Judy was now a fugitive from justice.
It was terrifying, the clanging of the riggings.
I didn't know who was going to come down there.
Yeah, this was the most terrifying time of my life.
That was the worst week.
And for three days, Science the Journal was on the phone saying, retract, retract, retract.
And I said, no.
Usually science only retracts a paper once all the authors agree that it should be.
By the time that Judy was hiding out on the boat, most of her co-authors had agreed.
But not Judy.
Still, science went ahead anyway.
They retracted.
Wow, okay.
This seems really fishy, not even knowing the debunk.
First off, whenever anyone just in life tells me a story, and maybe it's because I'm an asshole, you're free to say it.
Whenever anyone tells me a story of Yeah, got fired today for no reason.
I was like, yeah, but what?
Okay.
There might have been a reason though.
I'm not saying, maybe, maybe, maybe that's true.
Maybe it was for no reason, but like, yeah, fucking insubordination, whatever that means.
Like, I've just been, it's like, okay, that's pretty extreme.
I don't think people do that for nothing, but you never know.
Maybe sometimes people do it for nothing.
And like, the way, even not knowing anything, the way John presents it is so fucking weird to me.
Where he's like, and so, they filed a civil lawsuit.
Okay, civil lawsuit, sure.
And then also, an arrest warrant was issued, or whatever it was, and it's like, yeah, okay, well, she stole something.
And then it's like, well, she's hiding, and so they added another charge.
And it's like, yeah, you could have described that very differently.
You could have been like, Well, she stole some stuff.
Naturally, the police were getting involved because she stole stuff.
And then she went on the run from the law.
And so now she's a fugitive, you know, rather than like the way he presents it as like this thing that's kind of being unreasonably done to her.
Is that just me?
That's how the tone felt.
A hundred percent.
And I can confirm that because in the Knowledge Bite interview, he will absolutely portray it that way.
Oh, wow.
We could play it or I can just read you.
Yeah, now I do want to play that.
She was arguably treated unfairly, I would say, at this moment.
Because, you know, So after she refused to retract the paper then she's hiding out on a boat and she's charged with... Because what happened was, you know, she gets into a terrible conflict with her employers.
They want her to hand over what's called a cell line.
This is like the materials that she was using in her experiments.
Now, from what I could understand, the reason why they wanted her to hand over a cell line was because a theory was forming among the people who couldn't replicate her findings that this XMRV, this mouse virus, was there in the cell line.
Yeah.
And it was just a genuine mistake.
So this is where you can hear him making the mistake that the turning over the cell line has something to do with debunking XMRV.
Absolutely.
And it's not.
It's about her not turning over.
This new cell line shows up that is for new research, and she doesn't want Lombardi to have it.
And that's just a mistake.
Even though it was addressed to Lombardi.
I think it's just a yes.
That's just a mistake.
And the reason I think that's just a mistake is actually it makes her look better if that's unrelated.
Like, honestly, not that that's a relative term, but I think it looks fishy as hell to be like, no, I'm not turning over my definitely fraudulent stuff so that you can check that it was fraud.
It would be way more beneficial to her story to be like, oh, well, no, this was a thing totally unrelated.
He was on.
You know, he didn't deserve to have, because then at least it's like, well, I don't know what the fuck that is, you know?
Yeah.
So, wow.
So, but that's still John Ronson just being wrong, just making a mistake about this, like a pretty important thing.
Yeah, a really important mistake.
And once again, like, if you look up, like, Max, who is the very resourceful young man who- Yeah.
Helped her out.
The first hit for his name is the affidavit.
And just judging based on credibility, Max didn't go on to make a documentary in quotes that killed who knows how many people that's full of lies, right?
So just evaluating credibility, you know?
As far as I can tell, Max went on to change his name and move to another country.
I can't find, oh god, I want to know so much about this man and I can't find anything.
And he started that with arguably treated unfairly.
Okay.
Sure.
...to the cell line.
And she genuinely mistakenly thought it was in the blood samples and not the cell line.
But she was refusing to hand it over in a very angry way, from what I can tell.
So she was fired and then a colleague of hers, I think one of her interns or co-workers, took her notebooks from the lab.
The quote from your story, just because I appreciated this one from Judy and Lying Thief, Max is a quote, resourceful young man.
So I think it's very clear that he broke into the building and stole all the crap back, right?
Yeah, basically got her stuff back.
She said she wanted it back because she was worried that people would, like, tamper with her notebooks and she wanted to preserve them.
But she got her notebooks back from the lab and now she was being, you know, sort of charged.
Charged or whatever but basically she was being accused of theft because she was stealing her own notebooks which belonged to the lab because if you're writing your notebooks it's the lab's property and a fugitive for justice because she was hiding out on a boat.
So then she ends up… I can't remember if she turned herself in or she ended up anyway going to prison for five days.
And I've got to say, going to prison for five days for taking your own notebook from a lab is pretty rough.
Well, that was...
We've talked about that and that was something...
We talked about that on our show and that was something that I was...
I listened to again and I was still like, well, first of all, it's easy to kind of overlook that.
Or at least overlook looking into it too deeper beyond saying, well, yeah, the cops are fucking awful.
That's the type of shit they do to people.
And we're all just going to live with it until we die.
But the more I looked into it, the more I thought, why did this happen?
That seems so strange to me that there would even be this scenario for stealing notes, right?
People steal way more stuff with way less consequences all the time.
You can steal a car in Chicago and have fun.
It's great.
So I looked into it and I was trying to find, okay, well, where did all of this stuff come from?
And it said the warrant came from the university police.
The university place?
Yeah, well that's what one place said.
And then I followed up and then I kind of looked at it.
I don't even know if they can do that?
Are rent-a-cops able to issue warrants?
So yeah, and that experience You know, wounded her deeply, clearly.
Irreparably, perhaps, or certainly profoundly wounded her.
Now, if you're narcissistically minded, and I think this is a really important thing about All, you know, everything that you do and knowledge fight.
Yeah.
I think narcissism plays an enormous part in all of this.
Yes.
Like, why does Alex act the way he did?
Why did, you know, so many people.
Yeah.
And I think one of the, you know, one of the sort of symptoms of narcissism is if you're wounded.
I'm not saying this is true in Alex's case.
I really don't know.
But I think in other cases, undoubtedly, if you're narcissistically inclined and then you're wounded, It's really hard for you to get over it.
You lash out and lash out and lash out in a sort of tireless way.
And I think Judy was so wounded by that whole experience.
Understandably.
I don't think she should have gone to jail for five years for having her own notebooks stolen.
Absolutely not.
That is the one part of this that is like, I can't get over why we all don't know more about that.
That seems, I mean, if you're, because, because, I mean, I, I'm assuming it's true, right?
I'm sure it's true.
You know, we did a whole load of fact checking and didn't find anything to the contrary.
Sure, sure.
So assuming that is true, then there are people involved who we can talk to and nobody's talked to them?
Like, I feel like I want to talk to the district attorney.
Yeah.
Annette Whittemore didn't want to talk to us.
You know, obviously we approached her for an interview and she declined.
I think that segment was probably the most telling to me.
So he says, first of all, we did a whole load of fact checking and we didn't find anything to the contrary.
And it's like... The contrary of her having gone to jail for five days.
Yeah, I guess if you mean literally just you fact-check and she went to jail for five days.
That is what he meant, because Jordan was saying like, well, it did happen, right?
Yeah, now the problem is if you did a whole load of fact-checking, you would think you would come across all these other details.
There'd be other facts that you would think would Yes, and then when Jordan says, like, okay, so if that happens, there are people we could talk to, and nobody, you, has talked to them, and he's just like, yeah, well, Annette Whittemore Didn't want to talk to us.
So Judy was really wounded.
Like, we're just moving on from the fact that you didn't ask any of the district attorney, the sheriff, any of the people she has sued because she claims they're part of a conspiracy with the Whittemores to arrest her.
Yes, she did.
Sue, like, 15 people claiming it was all a grand conspiracy to arrest her.
She ultimately will claim that Lombardi falsified data, which, hey, I don't know, maybe he did.
Maybe he didn't, but it's coming from Judy, so who knows?
She's like, you know how I know?
It's because I falsified it.
I mean...
She will claim yeah Lombardi who worked at WPI actually he was false buying data and that's why I didn't want him to have the cell lines and that's why I didn't want him to have the notebooks and that's why I took my own personal property out of the lab and that's Why the Whittemores who run the lab called the DA and had me arrested, and all these people are in on it.
The California DA, the Nevada DA, the sheriffs in California are all part of a grand conspiracy.
What's with all this DA talk?
Wouldn't they just have called the police and told them what was going on and that the police couldn't figure it out?
Yeah, I can't.
Or is it that the rich people talk directly to the DA or something?
Maybe?
So here's part of the problem.
The charges will eventually get dropped specifically because, well let me read you what the DA actually says about this.
What ends up happening is this is all going on in 2011 and in 2012 Harvey Whittemore is going to start getting investigated for embezzlement and campaign finance violations by the Fed.
And this is all state level so far.
And what the DA said about why Judy's state charges were dropped is, there's a lot going on with the federal government and different levels that wasn't occurring when we first became involved with prosecuting this case, and we have witness issues that have arisen.
So they're going to drop her case.
They're not saying it's because she didn't do it.
They're not saying it's because she did.
They dropped it without prejudice, meaning they could theoretically bring it again.
I'm sure not by now.
It's probably been far too long.
Yeah.
So on the one hand, you know, yeah, innocent until proven guilty.
We have no idea if the burden of proof would have been met had this gone to a courtroom and needed to be beyond a reasonable doubt.
Well, that she what?
Stole the notebooks?
Yeah, so fun fact, something that a lot of people missed is she also took a laptop.
It's not just her, first of all, calling it her personal notebooks, as we've discussed.
Not, no, not right.
Especially because I forget if it was you or who was it who said like this, it might have been you, this was irreplaceable or was the affidavit, like.
That was the affidavit.
This is stuff that is irreplaceable to research that belongs to this company.
To the institute.
Yeah.
Like you can't just take Stuff from a place.
Like one thing, you know, like you can imagine.
I think that's what, what is happening here is a bunch of people are translating this into laws or personal.
She had a notepad on her desk, you see, and she wrote down.
Grocery list.
Yeah.
And it's like, oh, what, what's that?
It's irreplaceable to the research that the Institute is like doing and hired her to do.
And like, yeah, that's obviously not hers.
Obviously.
Right.
Why did Max go in, attempt it at 4 in the morning, and then again at 8 in the morning through the loading dock, 12 to 20 notebooks, and then hide them in his mother's garage?
That doesn't sound like the kind of thing you do if you think it's personal property you're entitled to.
A whole lot of groceries, let me tell you.
Apparently.
Those notebooks.
And like this portrayal, Ronson is saying, it wasn't clear to me why she wanted them.
It seems like she was worried people were going to manipulate it.
What ends up happening actually is as soon as the Whittemores, at least this is the Whittemore's side of the story, as soon as they discover the missing data, they file civil suit.
And they get an order from a judge enjoining Judy from destroying those notebooks or deleting the data.
They will eventually get a default judgment against her because she will never turn it back over.
Wow.
Really?
Yeah.
She will give back some of the notebooks but not others.
She will give back the laptop and they will allege that she deleted data off the laptop.
Wow.
Not the kind of thing that we tend to think a person who didn't falsify data might have done.
Maybe, just maybe.
So this is not somebody who got their very resourceful lab assistant called them and then got in there and got her her personal notebooks.
And like the whole fugitive from justice thing.
Fugitive from justice is defined in Nevada and federal law as relating to crossing state lines to avoid criminal prosecution or testifying in a criminal trial.
It has nothing to do with the civil lawsuit.
Yeah.
It's because there was an arrest warrant and she went from Nevada to California.
To evade justice, yeah.
Yeah, and it's specifically reported that part of it was she was considered a flight risk because she flighted.
Yeah.
And the part about the boat, that she was... I don't know why there's this idea that there's an arrest warrant that she would somehow know about and then hide out on a boat.
How does anyone think that would work?
How would she know that she was going to be arrested if she was not yet already arrested?
No, she was hiding on the boat to avoid civil service of process, which, again, is not how civil service of process works.
Like, if they can't find you, there are multiple mechanisms to attempt to serve you that will count.
My favorite is called Nail and Mail.
I don't know if other states have this, but in New York State, it is literally, I will be nailing it to your door and mailing it to you.
And so, yeah, you can nail and mail if you can't find them.
You don't have a door.
I have to nail it to the hull.
I don't know.
Put it in a bottle and then send it out.
Hope it makes it.
The whole ocean is her mailbox now.
Like, I, oh my god, the whole thing is chaos.
I know this is a minor part of it, but I just love how, like, white privilege-y it is, or something, to be like, or like, wealth privilege, whatever it is, to be like, she only did this, and she only did that, and then it's like, meanwhile,
there are people obviously who do far less and get punished far more and it's never put in the terms of they only stole a bunch of stuff from their work if it was a black dude to be like this criminal got fired got mad stole a bunch of work property and then these same people would be like well he should be in prison for 10 years probably Yeah.
I was thinking that the whole time that it's like the idea that she was treated so unfairly.
I want to be fair, like maybe if you're British and you look at, I'm not going to defend our justice system for a second.
Like I'm not going to tell you Judy probably had a blast sitting in a prison cell.
Like it was probably pretty, I'm sure it was awful.
Like, yeah, yeah.
I'm sure she didn't have a fun time.
But I bet you, even in the UK, if there's a warrant for your arrest, or you're evading justice, or you have stolen things and won't give it back, yeah, there's probably consequences.
Yeah, absolutely.
I ran this by someone I know who does criminal law, and the way they portrayed it was, everybody thinks they're being persecuted, and sometimes they're just being prosecuted.
I've got here, I thought this part was interesting, there's part of the lawsuit when this is Judy suing other people the part where like so Judy says like in other places like oh my god I'm going bankrupt because people are suing me and like she spent years suing other people with a lawyer and then pro se eventually.
So we're in a motion to dismiss, right, which means we're gonna take Judy at her word that everything she's saying is true and we're still gonna just say no to all of this.
Plaintiff's uncontroverted allegations only established that her time in jail was unpleasant and that she was - Already.
- Okay. - And that she was not processed as fast as she could have been.
- Okay. - Which again, we have to keep two things in mind.
Obviously on one hand, our justice system sucks.
On the other hand, - Yes.
- Relative to our justice system, I'm sure that's all bullshit. - Yeah.
And just to be clear, are you saying this motion to dismiss was granted?
Yes, this was the motion to dismiss to let all of the sheriffs and people from California who so cruelly and unnecessarily arrested her, they are not going to in fact be sued for a grand conspiracy.
To arrest Judy, orchestrated by the Whittemores and the government and the virus itself, I don't know.
Now, what about qualified immunity?
Did they dismiss it for other reasons?
I want to make sure it wasn't like the normal- We literally stopped- No, we stopped before even talking about qualified immunity.
There was no genuine issue of material fact.
Wow.
Crazy.
There's this allegation about phone calls First, even if accepted as true, the calls made to plaintiff's husband would only support the inference that Harvey wanted plaintiff's husband to believe that he had the power to get plaintiff released from custody.
He did not say he had contacts within the sheriff's department or named the sheriff.
Second, plaintiffs' shifting allegations about the phone call are inadmissible hearsay not supported by a signed declaration with someone with personal knowledge of the content of the phone calls.
She can't get a declaration from her own husband.
So that sounds like she's alleging that Whitmore called her husband to pressure him or something to do something in exchange for releasing her.
Yeah, that somehow Harvey Whitmore would have the power to get her released from custody.
Like he's saying, if we accept this is true, that would mean her husband believed that.
And that the call even happened, if we believe Judy.
But, like, none of that would establish that he did... He was in a conspiracy or something.
Yeah, that he actually had that power.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, let's assume the call happened and that Judy's husband believed it was true.
He didn't have, she never shows any evidence that he had contacts that would make that possible.
Also, again, yeah, this would be a cross-state conspiracy.
Like, to extradite someone from California to Nevada, like, extradition is a big freaking deal.
Yeah, for all we know, Whitmore was talking about just, like, all right, we'll drop, like, our side of the charges or our, you know, our civil suit.
Yeah, whatever.
At the time of this, her husband was in his, like, 70s.
Like, who knows?
If these phone calls even happened, she can't get a signed declaration from someone with personal knowledge, aka her husband.
Will not verify this in court.
Not a good sign.
Not a great sign.
They did stay married, so apparently this wasn't a big enough disagreement.
I saw, just because I was looking at the husband while you guys were talking, and I saw he died from COVID, but she, like, changed the obituary to say that it was, like, COPD, and, you know, wrote out COVID, but the rest of the family was like, no, it's because of COVID.
She will end up also suing, this is a fun one, fun legal fact, you can do a cuitum cause of action, which means I'm going to show up on behalf of the U.S.
government suing you because how you wronged the U.S.
government, and she's going to sue the Whittemores.
the Whittemore Peterson Institute and say you people were faking data to get grants from the government and you were trying to do all of this stuff so on behalf of the U.S.
government I appear to get you in trouble for that and she tries to move to let the government join as a party and they declined.
They declined.
Go get them.
It's crazy.
The court ends up dismissing this one as well, because they're like, the fun part here is, so you can't do the Quitom claim pro se.
Oh, interesting.
That's just too fucking insane, sorry.
You're not allowed to be like, I will represent the government, I know I'm not a lawyer.
And then the part that would still relate to her and, like, be her own personal lawsuit, they dismissed.
Because you have 90 days to do service of process, and they cut you slack when you're pro se, and, like, a year later, she just keeps not showing that she ever filed service of process on the litigants.
And the judge is like, there's no evidence they're aware of this lawsuit.
Like, no, go home!
Like...
Yeah, maybe it's because you said they got a default verdict on her, right?
They did.
In their lawsuit against her, they will get a default judgment.
Maybe she was like, ooh, I see what I can do here.
Oh, no.
I'll just never serve it, say I did, and then, ah, default judgment!
Oh, this is me just speculating.
But like, honestly, that's how these idiots' minds work sometimes.
I don't know.
Yeah, this is the joy of pro se litigants, is just getting them, getting to watch them try to navigate the procedural part.
It's like, it's tragic when it's people who can't afford a lawyer and they're in the civil versus the criminal system.
Like, that sucks.
But it's, you know, and then there, then there's Judy.
Yeah.
So yeah, you know, what we have Ronson saying in the podcast and then doubling down in this interview with Jordan is like, it was draconian.
She, you know, five years, that was I'm sure just a misspeak, five days for having her own notebook stolen.
Stealing a loaf of bread to feed her family.
It's 12 to 20 notebooks and a laptop containing data that don't belong to her.
Irreplaceable data for the research.
Right.
And again, maybe when we get to court, if it went to court, a jury would not have found this true beyond a reasonable doubt.
But in order to have probable cause to affect an arrest... Well, she admits she did it.
I don't think... Yeah.
Yes!
Yes, she does!
Her defense is not she didn't do it.
It's those were mine and I'm a narcissist and I can have whatever I want.
And I hit out on my friend's boat.
Yeah.
Yeah, so this is crazy.
This is so bad.
Yeah, this is just, yeah.
And, like, again, I can't emphasize enough this is, like, so much of this is on her Wikipedia.
If you Google her, if you Google Max, Max is discussed in the podcast.
And, like, yeah, we have this piece where it's just, so nobody talked to the DA?
Well, we tried to talk to Annette anyway, moving on.
It's like, ugh.
Now, probably one of the things that we have to also think about is if the charges are dropped, typically your records are sealed.
Because if, you know, innocent until proven guilty, we would never want... Charges were dropped because of complete mistaken identity.
But now when people Google you or look at public records, they still find you were charged for a crime.
That would be terrible, right?
So typically, if charge... Not just you're found innocent, but like truly before we even go near a trial, charges are dropped.
they will seal those records.
So it does give Judy this ability to write her own narrative and the DA no ability to say like, "Hey, you're lying.
I didn't-- I'm not part of a conspiracy." Right up until Judy sues them and alleges a conspiracy, and now they get to be like, "No, no, no." Except all those dang documents are like hidden on court dockets.
So maybe if you dig into that, like, Judy alleges that the arrest warrant was shown to her and it was blank and it's since been forged to include, like-- That sounds super plausible yeah.
Yeah there was no mug shot.
And that warrant had that virus too.
Yeah then they made me pose for a media photo and they photoshopped that to make it into a mug shot but they never really booked me and like She was an upstanding scientist until she was wronged so horribly, and that's why.
It just strikes me as one of those, like, I think John Ronson wants to believe people and wants to be compassionate, but it's like, you can't let that go too far.
I feel like he wants to tell a story of a tragic figure who has this reason that she eventually turned total fucking bullshit.
It's like, well, but actually she was total fucking bullshit from the beginning, and that's important to know.
Yes, and there's a way to still be compassionate to Judy that is I mean, we, you know, who knows what her deal is?
Yeah.
Who knows?
I don't know, maybe the journalist who could have looked into like, you hear the part where he says, I don't know, she might have been unimpeachable when she worked at the National Cancer Institute.
We could have found that out.
Go ask, go ask, go ask somebody.
Hey, what was Judy like when she was 20.
What was she like when she was 10?
What was she like when she was 30?
Did other people see the signs of this coming?
Because if the story is about how does a person, not just a person who's smart and educated, but a virologist become a virus conspiracy theorist, I'm curious too, what were their signs?
It's not the arrest.
It's not the arrest.
I'm sorry.
Like, I'm sure the arrest didn't help, right?
But she was making, we know she was making conspiratorial types of statements beforehand.
The whole reason she got arrested was because she was already full of shit.
Yes, because she was supposedly paranoid that people were going to, you know, manipulate her data.
But we have reason to suspect she manipulated her data and maybe is trying not to get caught.
I want to get something.
I don't know if you know the answer to this, but I get that the cell line thing was just a total mistake.
That wasn't, you know, whatever.
But would those notebooks contain any evidence of what she did?
Or is that all about just fucking over the Institute and trying to take her, like, ball and go home?
Without knowing exactly what's in those notebooks, speaking generally, people have gone to jail for this kind of thing and that's the way it's happened.
is, hey, I got a grant from the National Science Foundation, which means I took your tax dollars from the government, and I then falsified data, and I got caught, and that is basically, that's fraud against the government, and they go to jail.
It's happened before.
Like, that would not be unusual.
I guess it would be unusual statistically, but it would not be, like, a thing that's never happened to anyone.
And that's kind of how it happens is somebody sees, I mean, the example I'm thinking of in my head right now is somebody sees a figure in a paper that doesn't seem quite right, and then what they do is they ask you to show your work.
They want to see, well, if this figure isn't manipulated, then I should see notes about, you know, these studies take years and years to put together, right?
So I Like, I can speak for myself when I do my own data collection.
Like, I do meticulous notes because I know I'm gonna come back, like, I could come back years later and go, what was participant 237 doing?
Who was that?
Right.
And what were, I, there's a reason I tossed them out of the study and I don't remember what it was.
I have to go back and figure out.
Lucky notebook fraud.
Oh yeah, okay.
Yes, exactly!
This is how people get caught.
The thing that is the most telling is there doesn't seem to be any follow the breadcrumb trail back to the decisions the person made.
It's just there was nothing and then there was a figure.
But I just wasn't sure if those notebooks would have that?
Was that the same?
It's entirely possible.
It's entirely possible that is what's going on.
These notebooks may well hold the evidence that would prove that there was fraud.
That laptop data that she allegedly deleted before she turned the laptop back over?
May well have been what would show.
Sometimes when you look at data on a spreadsheet, you can go, this is just suspiciously, like, why does everything, is everything round numbers?
But after this is when she accidentally showed in a lecture.
Let me give you the timeline here.
Yeah.
So the paper, 2011, June 6th, is a virology conference in Belgium where NSERINC actually meets up with her.
And she's being very conspiratorial about like, You know, everybody's out to get us.
Sometime in the summer, Silverman is writing for a full retraction and he is showing, like, the problem with the plasmid contamination.
September 23rd, Cohen and Enserink publish False Positive, which is the really famous, like, write-up of what went down.
And that very same day, at a conference in Ottawa, Judy shows The terrible, no good, very bad slide.
September 29th, she is fired, and everybody thinks it's about this, and Annette has to say, Annette Whittemore says, no, no, no, it's because of the insubordination thing.
April 14, the partial retraction Silverman asked for is published, but people did know that was coming.
October 16, that's when, according to the affidavit, Judy gets the notebooks and goes to California.
Whereas, you know, on the 29th is when Max stole them or I guess the morning of the 30th.
November 4th, the civil lawsuit is filed.
November 16th, Max gives his affidavit and the Nevada arrest warrant is issued.
It looks like then maybe November 17th is when the California arrest warrant is issued for the extradition.
November 18th, she's arrested.
November 22, she posts bail.
December 23, we get the full retraction of the paper.
June 7, she pleads not guilty of 2012.
June 11 of 2012, the charges are dropped.
And then February of 2014, we get the default judgment against her for failing to turn over remaining data per a court order.
Then Judy just keeps trying to sue other people, pro se, and losing.
Wow.
Oh, in 2014, she publishes an anti-vax book.
In 2019 or 2020, she publishes another anti-vax book.
Both of those are with Kent Hecken-Lively, a second author.
2020 is Plandemic Documentary comes out.
And in 2021 is when she writes her third plague book with Kent Hecken-Lively and Dr. Frank Rossetti, her PhD advisor.
That's about where we are today.
Wow.
So if anybody wants to go down a fun rabbit hole, Dr. Daniel Peterson is the Peterson of Whittemore Peterson.
There is something I would love to research more about of the Lake Tahoe incident that is apparently when a bunch of people supposedly like caught chronic fatigue, like there was an outbreak.
There is an interview with Lipkin, the guy who did a big debunk study of the XMRV thing.
And it's an interview by somebody who kind of sounds conspiratorial about CFS.
And he's doing an amazing job of being like, no, no, no, let me tell you the truth.
And then somebody says, well, what about the Lake Tahoe incident?
What about Dr. Peterson?
And he says, well, you know, I would love to analyze that data.
But Dr. Peterson has since left the Whittemore-Peterson Institute, and the Whittemore-Peterson Institute won't give me that data.
So what's going on there?
Let's get that intern!
Resourceful intern!
Oh my god, there's so much here.
There's so much here that could have been explored about, there are clearly real people suffering with a real disorder, and that's terrible.
And then there seem to be sort of wooey, Full-on quacks and wooey people and maybe woo-adjacent people all latching on to them and taking advantage of them.
And then there's maybe real doctors, maybe not.
And then there's this Lake Tahoe thing.
And then, what is everybody doing?
I want to know.
And instead, we got a story about how if only everyone was nicer to poor Judy, the plandemic would never have happened.
Yeah.
Wow.
What a load of shit.
-Try a load of shit?
-Yeah.
-Sucks.
-Yeah, I couldn't believe how everything I looked into was either just more nuanced, more complex than that, or just fully not accurate.
It was frustrating and confusing, and I feel like I'm losing my mind.
And there's more!
I don't know!
We will talk about more of episodes of this show at a later date, but Janessa, thanks so much for coming on.
Wow, what a comprehensive breakdown.
Holy cow.
Wait, you don't have anything to plug or anything, do you?
November election coming up.
Check.
If you Google your state and board of elections, you will be able to find when you need to register and when you need to, uh, get out there and get your absentee applications.
Find the dates now before it's too late.
Thanks so much.
Uh, good message.
And, uh, poof more, unfortunately more on, uh, things fell apart in future episodes.
All right, that's our episode and for once we're not, I'm actually not interrupting anything.
We're not the chaperones because we actually came to a conclusion of the last- The sun has come up.
Official part.
Yeah, yeah.
More like the trees in the second Lord of the Rings movie after the Battle of Helm's Deep.
You talk about Lord of the Rings a lot.
Okay.
It just came up on OA, didn't it?
Well, that wasn't my fault.
The bar exam that was explicitly about Lord of the Rings that I didn't make up?
Come on.
Anyway, point is, this is the final part.
You've just concluded it, but unofficially, there's a part five that is a lot of fun that I already teased for you before, but go to patreon.com slash weatherswoke and listen in.
It's going to be so fun.
Lydia's got a ton of just miscellaneous lies and details from this Extremely liberal with the truth claims, Judy Mikovits.
There's a lot of stuff here.
So you can only get them on Patreon and we can't wait to give it to you.
But if not, thanks so much for listening to this whole series.
And hey, there's more.
Because we're doing more than just this.
Now, I will say, this was the longest series in terms of per episode basis.
The next one is only a two-parter.
Can you believe it?
Only a two-parter.
But there's another one after that that really gets into some transphobia and TERFdom.
That's, I think, more like a three-parter, and it deserves more time because that one is just oof.
So that to look forward to on this series about things fell apart, falling apart.
Thanks for listening.
We'll see you over on the Patreon bonus.
See you there, cool kids.
Alright, here we are in addendum land, and first off, Janessa, I would like you to apologize for your audio and the main show.
I did my best.
You were in some sort of echoey chasm or something.
I don't know what it was, but it was very difficult.
From the void.
Yeah, I was in a closet with nothing hanging in it, which didn't help, but I needed to, in an emergency situation, find a quiet place away from children, but now I'm in...
A quiet place away from children called my home.
You sound great.
I was just teasing.
We are jumping on here in addendum land, because back in the 70s when we first recorded this, we had a lot of good stuff.
But since then, in many layers, we've uncovered some stuff.
Here's my teaser, and then Lydia is going to get going on our timeline.
You remember how they were like, hey, all right, the five day arrest thing, that does seem weird.
Maybe that was bullshit.
Maybe the cops suck.
Maybe the whatever.
I think we can definitively say, no, the fuck that wasn't.
That's totally understandable.
And it would be extremely hard in my mind to argue that her five days in custody was anything other than obviously what needed to happen.
Yeah.
That's my claim and my teaser.
But Lydia, why don't you take it?
Yeah.
So I found this of all sources.
Bear with me, because there is a reason.
It's the Daily Beast.
And they did an interview with Judy back in 2012, and like right after her arrest, basically.
Pretty close to this, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So they had a conversation with her, and I wanted to read to you guys how she characterizes the events surrounding her arrest.
So they wrote, she took the small boat moored behind her house down into the harbor, where she got onto a friend's sailboat and hid there for five days.
She went boat to boat.
Boat to boat.
Just imagining leaving your house.
For some reason it's a little bit funnier than what she already said.
I was just expecting her to have shown up at the harbor, I guess.
But I didn't think about her boating over there.
I hope they did, you know like a relay baton pass off?
I hope they did that where they both got going the same speed.
Oh yeah, what is that called when pirates take your boat in the water?
Well, but there was also all that stuff about renting a car, so she like rented a car to rent another car to take her boat to another boat?
I don't know.
Well, she rented the car to take a bunch of the stuff back to her house, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And I do also want to emphasize that this is a result of us going painstakingly through the 47 different lying sources of this story.
Yeah, we can't stop ourselves.
I really wanted to make sure we had this right.
That's where we kind of uncovered a little more nuance to the story, a little more detail.
It's fun.
So boat to boat, step one.
And mind you, it's presented on the show as though she's doing this to avoid arrest, but that isn't what we think.
We're pretty sure, right?
Because the affidavit of the helpful, the very capable, helpful assistant guy, whatever, he said she was avoiding service of process.
She was avoiding service of process, and I'll lay out the dates there, too, in just a second.
But then it says, by November 14th, Judy was back at her house in Ventura County, and she had retained a lawyer who assured her there was no warrant out for her arrest.
So she went back home.
Because she was like, all right, well, I don't need to stay on this boat anymore.
I'll just go home.
Within one week of that phone call with her lawyer, her doorbell rang.
Her husband, David, who we'll be talking about a lot more in the bonus for patrons.
Mind you, this is still her lying words.
This is not her official.
I just want to make sure.
It's going to be confusing for people.
Author.
Her husband answered the door and someone spoke from the other side and said, is Dr. Judy in?
It's Jamie.
I'm a patient.
She knows me.
She said I could come by any time.
Now, this information is repeated in Judy's civil rights complaint that she eventually does.
Does she see patients?
I think she has in the past, not related to her WPI research director job.
And then she said, it's okay, David, I'll take it.
I went down to the front door and she said, remember me?
And I said, no.
And then everybody jumped out of the bushes.
She showed her little badge.
Okay.
The police cars went and surrounded the house.
Okay.
We started a recording talking about this, where Lydia had this, and I was like, that doesn't make any fucking sense.
I said, hey, I haven't read the thing you've read, but she has to be combining two things.
Because if you have a warrant for someone's arrest, correct me if I'm wrong, lawyer person, you don't need to do a disguise and pretend you're another person and then rip off a costume.
Like, you're under arrest.
You just go to the house and arrest somebody.
Knock, knock, knock.
She's probably come by.
But when you do civil service of process, that actually you do kind of, they do that sometimes.
That's a real thing.
So I was like, okay, either it's fucking made up.
And I think the patient thing is just another way for her to seem more sympathetic.
Oh, I just was going to, by the kindness of my heart, I had to go see this patient.
You know, this can't be right.
She's not a medical doctor.
No!
She has a PhD.
So, like, I guess you could use the word patient insofar as, like, I have a disease and I see this PhD doctor for research.
But, like, she's not- Right, like, participating in a study.
She's not doing a checkup.
Yeah, yeah.
I think this is complete bullshit.
They don't do house calls.
So, to me, what you were saying, Lydia, like, at first it was like, aha, this is a process server.
Yeah.
As soon as there's a badge, like, yeah, I don't... Process officer.
Yeah, yeah.
They're not like, you're going to have to admit who you are.
They're going to take your wallet out of your pocket while they're handcuffing you.
Yeah.
The police don't need to do that.
Famously, they usually just shoot you.
They just break down your door.
And if anyone has a gun, they're like, we'll shoot you.
And then that's what they do.
They don't need to pretend there's somebody else.
So, let me give, you know, we talked about the timeline a little bit on the main episode, but let me just kind of reiterate some of these things because I think it will help us understand what's going on here.
And then I have another piece that also helps understand what's going on here.
So, leading up to the arrest, September 27th is when Lombardi received a package from Japan, and Judy told Max he's not allowed to have those cell lines, but Annette Whittemore later said yes he was.
She was fired September 29th for insubordination.
Now, I also remember, and I wanted to say this too, that you said, I was confused.
You know, again, we uncovered the cell line confusion that both Ronson and Jordan had.
To be fair, I think Jordan was sniffing into the right direction there with these questions.
Right.
I think I remember you saying in this subsequent research that this was about her saying, how dare you work on another thing when we have this thing we're still doing?
And that's, was that her justification?
Yeah, exactly.
She kind of went off about Lombardi that he was doing things he wasn't supposed to.
Annette Whittemore has had to come out publicly, even saying, like, we don't normally comment on personnel matters, but I have to clear this up because the statements that Judy is making are just absolutely meritless.
So that happens September 29th when she's let go.
September 30th is when she has Max retrieve documents for her and then she came back up to Reno on October 16th to get those documents back from him.
In that time, from October 16th or whatever, the Whittemore's asked multiple times for that material to be returned and she continued to refuse.
And so two weeks later, on November 4th, WPI filed a civil suit against Majkovic, alleging that she had wrongfully kept her lab notebooks and other information about her work in flash drives, personal email account, etc.
And then they sought a TRO, a temporary restraining order, from a judge in Nevada, specifically prohibiting her from destroying, altering, disseminating, or using trade secrets and confidential information.
That was granted on November 7th.
So, then someone was waiting outside of her house to serve her with that TRO.
Let me pause you.
Yeah.
I just want to emphasize how much that goes in the face of the story that she was treated terribly by these asshole bosses that whatever.
Yeah.
It sounds like there was quite a bit of time between her stealing stuff from her workplace that is not hers and them pressing charges and doing all that stuff, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
100%.
Like, hey, crazy person, you mind giving this stuff back?
Right.
For a while.
For a while.
And then she essentially put them in this position where that was the alternative that they had.
That was the avenue that they had left to pursue.
Specifically in Max's affidavit, because he was interviewed by police on November 15th.
In his affidavit, he said she told him she was avoiding service and hiding on the boat.
So the guy was waiting by her house and that's why she, like, did the boat-to-boat thing?
Yeah, so guy's waiting outside of her house.
November 9th.
She's like, well, I don't want to get served.
So she takes her boat to her friend's boat, stays there for five days.
She got an attorney and was assured there's no arrest warrant.
So she's like, OK, I'm going to go home.
That's fine.
To be fair, it sounds like there was not.
Does she maybe think the process server is a cop?
Again, that is a weird blendy thing because she is avoiding service, but also was like...
Concerned about being arrested.
There's no warrant.
Now I can go back, which suggests she's not avoiding service.
Does she maybe think the process server is a cop?
She sees a process server waiting for her and is like...
No, I don't think so.
Because again, the assistant guy is in his affidavit saying she is avoiding service of process.
And I don't know how he, like, there's no way he's making that judgment any other way, but she's telling him that, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it might just be both.
I don't know.
Or it might be that she, maybe, okay, maybe she went home because that guy left or I don't know, maybe she thought the coast was clear for some reason.
Yeah, well, and I do think, like, having an attorney lined up probably, like, helps her feel more comfortable.
If she was going to get served, she's ready.
Maybe the attorney was like, hey, you know, you can't just avoid service.
That might actually be it.
Like, yeah, that's not going to work.
I think that's totally a fair point.
So she's back home on the 14th.
On November 15th, like I just said, Max was interviewed by police.
And he signed an affidavit on November 16th.
This is happening because the Whittemore Peterson Institute is housed on the University of Nevada, Reno's campus.
They are required to report activity that happens that could be illegal to police.
You know, you can just steal equipment and notebooks with vital information from a university.
Publicly funded university.
And they should just be chill about it.
Yeah, like, oh, you got to be chill though.
So we know simultaneous to this TRO that is issued that the Whittemores have also filed a police report declaring their equipment and material as stolen.
So that is currently being investigated simultaneously, right, while she's hiding out on the boat.
And they interview Max because he's a party to this case.
You know, he's a relevant person involved.
And he cracked instantly.
I'm just kidding, that's me making it up, but probably.
And he should have!
He should have been like, oh wow, this is not a good thing I was doing.
And I have a point actually for patrons on something that might have been going on there that I read a little bit.
Oh my god, I can't wait.
So on November 17th, the day after Max signs his affidavit, the warrant is issued for her arrest.
So there was not a warrant issued when she returned from her boating nonsense, but three days later it was.
Notably, he very much said, and now she's on a boat and now they say she's a fugitive.
Nope, not even close.
No.
So the state of Nevada versus Judy Mikevitz, this was a two count complaint, possession of stolen property as a felony because of the amount of money.
Yep.
And then also unlawful taking of computer data, equipment, supplies, or other computer related property, also a felony.
Maybe now's a good time to read the arresting officer's affidavit saying, by the way, this wasn't her personal notebook with her shopping list.
We've already made the jokes.
We're like, it just drives me nuts.
The kid gloves that Ronson is treating her with.
Here's the arresting officer.
Now this could be, I guess the Whitmore's making it up or something, but like, I.
Okay, I guess.
I mean, but like, here's what the arresting officer, the information that he had.
Mikovits retained possession of the stolen property and failed to return it to the rightful owners.
The items taken include a black Apple laptop, multiple flash drives, approximately 12 to 24 research notebooks.
And Janessa, you did say most of this, but there's a few other things that I think I want to highlight.
And miscellaneous correspondence from WPI.
The missing property includes trade secrets and information regarding inventions that are patented or for which a patent application is pending.
That Minkiewicz has been asked multiple times to return the missing items to WPI and she's refused to do so.
That investigation has revealed that the value of the stolen property greatly exceeds $650, that the value of the property stolen is likely to be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.
She's crazy.
What are you talking about?
You don't get to just steal a bunch of shit.
What, is stealing a crime now?
What has the world come to?
Yeah.
And then you'd flee.
OK, sorry.
Get back to your part.
Yeah.
Well, just to kind of put a little cap on what you're saying, too, she had signed an employee proprietary information and invention agreement that legally states WPI is the sole owner of the subject research information.
When she files her civil rights complaint, she literally says to the court, they forged my signature.
I've never seen that document in my life.
All right.
Liar.
Okay.
So getting back to it, on November 17th, that's also when a search warrant is issued out of Ventura County based on a probable cause statement of Todd Horrigan, who works for the local police department.
And then November 18th, she's arrested.
Okay.
Everybody turn down your volume.
While I tell why this is not at all unreasonable that she was held for five days.
Here's the thing about November 18th.
You know what day of the week that was?
It was a fucking Friday!
And here's something Lydia had to point out because I never would have, my brain does not work like this way.
It's the week before Thanksgiving!
So, like, it's a very real thing that if you get arrested on a Friday, you're gonna sit the weekend in jail.
That happens a lot.
It's unfortunate.
I'm not saying it's good, but it is totally understandable.
And in a situation where people might be offered the holiday that might be a short stat, who knows?
Like, there's plenty of reasons.
But add on top of that, she's a fucking fugitive from the law.
Let me ask you this.
If you commit a crime in state A, Thomas takes the bar exam, everybody.
You commit a crime in state A, you flee to state B and are arrested and put into custody in state B. How do you think the practicality will work that you would be instantly processed and let go in the other state?
The person who charged you with stuff doesn't live in that state.
They don't work in that state.
There's going to be, let alone, obviously it's a Friday, likely she didn't get, you know, like processed in time and arraigned in time because that doesn't happen instantly.
There's probably a backlog.
Again, not saying this is great, but this is nowhere near out of the ordinary for any kind of criminal thing.
She is a fugitive from justice in another state.
She got arrested on a Friday.
And then what happened Monday?
The fugitive complaint was filed.
Pursuant to California Penal Code, whatever, and I don't know if that's just the process of how they do, like, the extradition-y stuff.
And then she's arraigned on Tuesday.
So, yeah, not amazing, but that's the five days.
Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.
And released, completely released, and said, hey, head up to Reno by next Monday.
Not even like a police, this is the situation where she said they apparently can agree, hey, to avoid, you know, probably to avoid the cost of extradition, all that nonsense.
She agrees to return voluntarily to Reno.
But this idea that you should be able to get arrested in the state you fled to, to evade justice and be processed in like an hour.
How would that even work?
Yeah, yeah.
It's crazy.
One of the things that I really want to close this out on is, just as an aside, the way that the Daily Beast article quotes Judy as characterizing the document retrieval with Max, like when she told him, like, hey, get all my stuff.
Yeah.
So she says that she was back home in California the day after her firing when her cell phone rang at the crack of dawn.
It was Max, she says, calling to say that her notebooks, flash drives, and other experimental records at her lab had been rifled through.
Maikiewicz was worried most about the notebooks.
I said, Max, secure them.
It's obviously been ransacked.
I said...
You have to secure them.
It's chaos.
Take them home.
My USB drive has been... It was upside down.
I put it in, didn't go in the first try.
Someone turned it over.
She literally says, you have to secure them.
It's chaos.
Take them home.
Take them to your mother's house.
Yeah, to give you an idea of how not a reliable narrator she is.
And you can go ahead, and I guess Ronson has the theory that once she was arrested unjustifiably, which was very justifiable, she just lost her mind, her complete ability for facts.
She sued the wrong fucking people.
I know we talked about this.
She sued the sheriff's office that it was a conspiracy with the Whitmores.
And then it gets dismissed because they're like, there is absolutely no evidence that this sheriff's office was even who arrested you.
Like it was different officers.
You didn't even do it right.
Like, she doesn't even know who arrested.
You cannot trust anything she says.
Yeah, and later in some other court documents, she's literally a liar.
She says that she was not home on November 9th because she was away taking care of her elderly mother.
Ma'am, you did an interview in 2012 saying you were on a boat.
Like, your mom sat on your friend's boat.
The mother lived on the boat.
That's where the life support thing was.
Just such a lie.
And there's more lies.
There's so many more lies that I cannot wait to share.
But I did want to get that just because it's also, I think, again, missing information from that.
Knowledge fight interview that I have to commend Jordan for asking the right questions.
Like, hey.
Yeah.
He did say, like, why was she arrested for five days?
Seems weird.
Like, it is easy to just say, oh, that's our police state.
No, man.
Like, I don't know how much better that arrest can and should go.
Like, genuine in this system, which sort of like abolished the police.
OK, fine.
But like, you're arrested on a Friday in another.
You're a fucking fugitive.
What do you think?
They're going to teleport you to Reno instantly.
And it's just crazy.
So I think there's a couple things that are important there, too.
First of all, Ronson is characterizing this as obviously outrageous, and he also says, like, we did a ton of fact-checking on this.
And it's like, well, we did too.
Look what we found.
This is all out there.
Part of the issue, too, is that if she had committed a crime or alleged to have committed a crime in one state and was then arrested in that same state, no evidence she's fled or anything, depending on your state, it's entirely possible you would get booked and, like, I know people who are on the, like, on-call for the public defenders where you get the phone call and at two in the morning you have to show up and do an arraignment for someone because you, you know, it's...
There are rules about these things, so it depends on your state.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I was looking that same thing up, and it's very common if you're arrested on Friday or over the weekend that you're there until Monday.
That's just how it often works.
I live in the lovely state of New York, where we are trying to be better.
The city that never sleeps there, that's why.
Yeah, oh yeah, there you go.
You can get arraigned at 2am in New York.
Come to me, the big apple.
Swing by the bodega.
Yeah, get arraigned.
Yeah.
It's going to vary by state, but in states that are good about this kind of thing, also because New York has a huge part of this is our bail reform, the vast majority of people will be out without cash bail.
It was a nonviolent crime.
You are going to get In, arraigned, court date set, go home, don't go anywhere.
The absolute second you cross state lines, there's two problems.
One, if that happens after arraignment, it looks real bad.
It looks like you're running away.
Yeah.
Two, there's a huge just general procedural problem here.
If you get arrested in one state, to people who do not live in the U.S., this is going to sound bonkers because it's like you're within the same country.
How is this a problem?
But truly, like state governments are separate governments.
There's extradition as if you are foreign countries.
Right.
And it's not literally foreign countries, but like they're part of the Uniform Extradition Act.
And like California has to call Nevada.
You've got to get the right people on the phone, like the right signatures.
Yes, and I found that thing from the California Penal Code here, the 1551.1, arrest without warrant, grounds, taking prisoner before magistrate, complaint, is the, like, many little clauses in here.
So it's the arrest of a person may also be lawfully made by any peace officer without a warrant upon reasonable information that the accused stands charged in the courts of any other state with a crime punishable by blah, blah, blah, blah.
Oh, so she had warrants, but not in California.
Right, exactly.
When arrested, the accused shall be taken before a magistrate with all practicable speed, and complaint shall be made against him or her under oath setting forth the grounds for the arrest.
So basically, this is the extradition part of it.
You're arrested on Friday, it happened Monday.
Sorry, bad luck.
Tuesday.
No, this part happened Monday.
Oh, sorry, arraignment was Tuesday.
Yeah, the part where they actually had to do that, again, to Janessa's point, fucking paperwork's involved.
A lot.
And they did it on Monday.
Yeah.
Yeah, because you got to call Nevada and figure out how do you want us to handle this?
We have arrested your alleged criminal.
Someone who is already definitionally perhaps a flight risk because they've flown, like, Come on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
But yeah, thanks for hopping on again, Janessa.
This was, seriously, it was so satisfying to get some of these.
There were things that we already were basically onto back when we recorded that, but we got just that little more detail thanks to your amazing sources that you listed.
Yeah, collated.
Thanks.
Yeah, so thank you so much, and end of addendum, and we've had so much more in the fun bonus that Lydia has for us.
Oh my gosh, you guys.
Oh my gosh.
I can't wait.
You wanna tune in?
Oh, I'm excited.
Lydia, I believe you discovered a video.
I did.
I can't believe that not only are we at the end of the show, we're at post-record scratch addendum territory.
Post post.
Post post post.
In which I need to say, if your entire fucking theory of the case Was that this was a normal scientist for the most part, who's maybe unimpeachable perhaps while she was at the whatever, and then she turned rogue and was bad, whatever.
I think the one piece of like really bad evidence for your theory would be, I don't know, anything where it seems like she's already who she is before all this crap.
Yeah.
So there's none of that, is there?
I stumbled on an interview with Nevada newsmakers, Annette Whittemore.
Oh, they know about this.
They referenced this in the Nullified interview.
They referenced Nevada newsmakers.
But this interview?
How many times?
Annette Whittemore goes on a lot.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Oh, this is Whittemore?
Annette Whittemore and Judy, yes.
So, Annette Whittemore goes on Nevada Newsmakers fairly frequently, and in this interview, she goes on with Judy Mikovits because they want to talk about their discovery with XMRV.
This is October 8th, 2009.
We'll go ahead and skip to a little bit further in the interview so we can hear from Judy about the potential things that this discovery could lead to.
Just to make absolutely sure, she hasn't been arrested at this point.
No.
This is pre, it even becoming a hoax, right?
Yeah, this is when everyone's excited about the paper.
This has way more ramifications than just CFS and ME.
I mean, you know, we have been a very strong supporter of the autism community on this program and try to cover that as much as possible.
What effect might it have on the autism community with this research?
And findings.
I mean, it's beyond just research, but findings.
Yeah, we've actually, we're excited to, it's not in the paper and it's not reported, but we've actually done some of those studies and we found this virus present in a number, in a significant number of autistic samples that we've tested so far.
Wow!
Unbelievable.
So there is tremendous potential for this to potentially be something that will be solvable for the autism community.
Be linked to a number of neuroimmune diseases including autism.
It certainly won't be all because there are, you know, genetic defects that result in autism, but there are also the environmental effects.
There is always, you know, the hypothesis that my child was fine and then they got sick and then they got autism.
Interestingly, on that note, if I might speculate a little bit, the vaccine, this might even explain why vaccines lead to autism in some children.
Because these viruses live and divide and grow in the lymphocytes, the immune response cells, the B and the T cells.
So when you give a vaccine, you send your B and T cells in your immune system into overdrive.
That's its job.
Well, if you're harboring one virus and you replicated a whole bunch, you've now broken the balance between the immune response and the virus.
So you could have had the underlying virus and then amplified it with that vaccine and then set off the disease such that your immune system could no longer control other infections and created an immune deficiency.
Crazy.
Fucking are you kidding me?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally normal.
Oh, she must have been arrested that day, maybe for a different shoplifting.
I just all these arrests, you know, that just how many times was she arrested?
This is fucking insane.
This.
The way she phrases it, hey, oh, it's not even like, oh yeah, maybe vaccines cause autism or whatever.
She's like, hey, this could explain why, you know, that thing we all know that vaccines cause autism that's been debunked a billion times already by now.
This could explain why that thing that's not right is right.
Yeah.
She said it's so matter-of-fact, like, we're trying to explain this known thing, and like you're saying, like, yeah, it's been like over, at that time point, it's been over 20 years since we were like, mm, no, that's a full-on conspiracy, not just...
Like, that that was based on fraud, and she's just, on national... I shouldn't say national television, local.
Yeah, she gets pretty big ratings.
Yeah, and do you find it plausible, Janessa, that she has already done this experimentation on, like, autistic samples?
And she's like, we haven't talked about it yet, but I've already...
Done that, and I concluded that yes, vaccines cause autism because of this mechanism that I've, whatever.
Cause she seems like she's just lying out of her ass to me.
Like, but I don't want to do the body language expert thing.
Here's what's so interesting.
So we've got that Lombardi, right?
Is the first author on the paper who also works with her at WPI.
The one she ultimately gets in a fight with about like the cell line from Japan.
He was also, I have read reporting that he was also presenting this.
And yet it never gets published, of course, because it's nonsense.
So, like, were they possibly pulling, like, Wakefield 2, like, collecting data from patients and finding XMRV in them the way they were finding it in CFS patients?
Which is to say, not actually finding it, like, almost manufacturing it.
Maybe?
I mean, there are a lot of desperate people.
I don't know.
Oh, my God.
It's so... Yeah.
But I think, for me, when I heard that, it was just very clear that Judy was always destined to be on Plandemic.
This was not something that happened because of her falling out with WPI and her arrest and how she was treated there.
She was always going to be on that side.
Always.
Absolutely.
Fucking crazy.
And poor Annette.
I know!
She starts to answer it.
She so tried to be like, well, hang on a moment.
She's like, you're not lying fast enough.
Here, let me.
Shout out to the autism community.
You're not going to be cured with your fake vaccine injury with a fake virus that isn't real.
