This doesn't count as being late because I don't know what changed on the layout of my screen where I didn't see the countdown timer to when I was gonna...
Damn it.
Damn it all.
This is number two.
This is twice now that I have been late.
Good evening, everyone.
This is going to be amazing.
I forget now which one of the behavior panelists we haven't had on, but we've...
Mark, we're going to be a full hat trick of the behavior panelists.
And tonight, Greg Hartley, I mean, it's amazing stuff.
I'm still listening to Chase Hughes' six-minute x-ray, which is a phenomenal read that everyone should read.
But we are going to, we're going to be, if not experts, we're at the very least going to know how to identify certain things, look into certain behavioral patterns.
Helpful stuff.
Greg has written, I think it's 10 books, if I'm not mistaken.
So we're going to learn a lot of magnificent, insightful stuff tonight.
But I want to start, while everyone trickles in, I believe I picked a Twitter fight with someone named Medir Hassan, who works for MSNBC.
I made sure before picking a fight that I was punching up and also just not making fun of someone who...
Might have a good reason for not knowing better.
Mehdi Hassan tweeted this.
I swear to you, he tweeted this.
The argument that white supremacy and racial resentment couldn't have helped power Yunkin to victory in Virginia because the Republicans elected a black lieutenant governor, Winsome Sears, is as convincing as saying Trump isn't a racist because he made Ben Carson his HUD secretary.
To which I responded, or retweeted, even by your own analogy, you successfully confound being duly elected by an electorate with being appointed by an elected official.
So not only is your analogy incredibly offensive to everyone involved, including Winsome Sears, it's fundamentally idiotic.
Because when making an analogy, he's trying to say that it was white supremacy that jolted Youngkin to an upset victory, and just because Virginia also elected Winsome Sears, who is a black woman, just because they elected her,
white supremacy is still alive and well, and the argument that her being elected is not evidence of tolerance and equality because Trump appointed someone is to compare apples to oranges thinking you're making a point, and I cannot stand seeing people be publicly stupid and think they're convincing people that they're intelligent and that the point they're trying to make is an intelligent one.
Okay, so with that said, people, Super Chats, you know the shtick.
We're live on Rumble unless something has happened and we're not live on Rumble.
Someone let me know if we are.
Super Chats, not a right of entry into the conversation.
YouTube takes 30%.
Thank you for all the support.
Rumble Rants takes 20%.
If anyone wants to support the channel there, you can find us at vivobarneslaw.locals.com.
Five bucks a month.
We'll get you a lot of exclusive content.
Yada, yada, yada.
We know what to do.
Now, with that said...
I'm going to bring in Chase.
I'm going to bring in Greg.
I'm going to bring in Robert.
We're going to get the discussion going tonight.
And we have a special.
We're going to look at a certain video of a certain big mouth malignant narcissist who can't stop talking and see if my uneducated, intuitive assessment is anywhere near proper or worthy of praise, adulation.
Okay, I heard Calgary can be best described as the love child of Texas and Florida.
Is that accurate?
No comment?
Calgary, out west definitely is more freedom than out east.
Out east is more compliance.
Although even in Quebec, our Legault just undid the requirement for vaccination for healthcare workers, I think because they realize...
That it would cause more problems than would be politically expedient for them.
Okay, one more super chat, then we're going to do this.
Another deposit for your fly rod fund.
I'm making a future pick prediction where you take Robert Fishing.
I would love that.
Okay, let's see if I can bring in the order properly.
Boom, boom.
Oh, I don't like this layout.
Hold on one second.
Like this.
This is what we wanted.
Okay, gentlemen, how goes the battle?
If I had been in court today and I had jumped over and assaulted Mark Richards for his extraordinary incompetence and legal malpractice in defending Kyle Reddenhouse, would I have a self-defense claim for his constant assault on my mind with his own ineptitude?
I've just been pondering that for random reasons.
Greg, are you following the trial at all?
Yeah.
Just a little bit ago, I went in and watched and thought, man, I wish we were there.
I wish we had been there for this one.
This kid's in trouble.
And Greg, I guess we can talk about this because it's somewhat known, but you were of the services that were readily available to vet a jury pool to assist in this trial.
Yes, for sure.
We were chomping at the bit.
So, yeah.
Yeah, and credit to Greg and the whole team.
You know, they didn't require any upfront money or anything, all put time aside.
I was assured that they would be able to participate for six months, was made that explicit several weeks before, and then literally on the eve of jury selection, we were kicked to the curb.
And now we're seeing why.
The degree of, you know...
If we'd been around, it was clear the incompetence that was taking place.
And people saw him preview about how he wants to put Kyle on the stand.
I mean, this is not a competent defense that Mark Richards is putting up.
It's an incompetent defense.
And that's just not my words.
If anybody watched Nick Ricada today, every lawyer who appeared, Emily Baker, Legal Mindset, Attorney Tom, Nate the lawyer has said...
Similar things.
Uncivil Law said similar things.
Everybody who's watching this has said this is just below the level of basic competence.
I mean, this is complete and competent representation.
And this is why we were so nervous.
And that's why we brought the...
I mean, compare that to the team we're about to bring.
We made available to Kyle.
I mean, it's literally night and day.
So it's unfortunate that now Kyle's the one who suffers the risk of what the lawyer, Mark Richards, and the financial advisor, or whatever he is, David Hancock, has done.
I mean, it's very, very unsettling, very, very frustrating.
That's why I started drinking early.
It was that kind of day watching.
I needed to start.
There's no trending in the comment section, but if there was a trending hashtag in the Rakeda comment section, it would have been hashtag Barnes was right.
You know, Greg, before we get into history, upbringing, childhood, training expertise, let's get the elephant out of the room.
This trial, I presume you have been an expert in multiple trials in the past in terms of jury selection, this type of thing.
Watching this, and not a question of asking you, like, oh, what's the judge thinking now?
What is your impression, watching the players act in this play, the judge's responses, the defense lawyer's action or inaction, and Binder's, or Binger, what's his name?
What's his name?
Binger.
What is your impression of their overall performance?
Just to tell you, I only watched a little bit of it this afternoon, but I also know that area fairly well.
We all know that from Madison to Chicago can be a really rough ride for this guy.
I think anything less than stellar performance, and I only saw a few minutes, so it's hard for me to speak to, but anything less than stellar, and this kid's in real trouble.
And people I know who are conservative who live in Wisconsin, we're about 50-50.
I talked to people and said, what do you think?
And they said, we think he went to make right.
We did this.
I think the kid's in trouble.
Just leave it at that.
If you haven't seen enough to feel comfortable speaking on it, and it's a fair thing, more broadly speaking, when you go in for jury selection, when you're called in as an expert, what do you do typically?
What do you look for in jury member selection?
How do you go about weeding them out?
Because I imagine you're looking for more subtle things than the broad, immediate impression about...
The guilt of the defendant, you're looking for behavioral patterns in the jury members.
How do you go about it?
For sure.
For sure.
And what you're looking at is anytime you're looking for some cues that people don't control, like disgust or like disdain or those kinds of things that show in your face or chins up, we look for a ton of things.
And it's dependent on the person.
You're looking for change.
Remember, just because a person does this doesn't mean anything.
But if they do that at the appropriate time, it means everything.
I always tell people the best story I ever heard was from an attorney.
When I told him I did body language or sitting on a plane coming back from D.C. when I was teaching agencies.
And he said, yeah, my best ever story.
I was defending a guy for murder, and I had this woman, and she was crying, and I thought, I've gotten through to her.
I've gotten through to her.
And when the trial was over, they unanimously hung his guy.
And he said he went up and talked to this woman and said, I thought I made a connection.
She said, no, I was just crying and wondering how you could defend that son of a bitch.
So you've got to be careful reading into anything.
What you're looking for is change.
And that's...
You've worked with our other two partners, Barnes.
You know, I mean, that's what we do is we're looking for a deviation from what that person is normally doing.
Scratching your nose means nothing unless you only do it when I ask a hard question, right?
Oh, yeah.
I mean, it's amazing.
So, like, in federal cases, we get very little jury selection.
You know, if this judge had known what the background of the...
What the jury pool was like, which he witnessed in person, probably would have got more than a day.
Probably would have got several days.
I think the Arbery, I think they're still picking the jury down there.
And that would be normal.
And what's great about Greg's talent, skill set, the same with Scott and the same with Chase and the same with Mark.
So I had a federal case where we get usually like 30 minutes or an hour, which is mind-numbingly crazy to have that little amount of time.
We don't, as lawyers, get to ask any questions.
Only the judge does.
So what we need is we need to pick up on tiny little cues and tiny little clues that I frankly can't.
I don't have that skill set or ability, and it would take me about at least 10,000 hours of doing and reading what Greg does and what Scott does and what Chase does to get anywhere close to speed.
And I'll give an example.
We had this case in a criminal case, and both Scott and Chase told me, this one juror, you got to get rid of her.
And it was the last strike left.
Now, demographically, she fit a pro-defense jury group.
Her life history fit a pro-defense jury group.
So almost all jury selection people would say, no, pick her.
And I went back and forth and back and forth.
There was another one that was also close.
Well, I made the mistake of going with the traditional jury selection analysis.
I picked her.
She not only ended up screwing me, she ended up being the foreman on the jury.
She eagerly screwed me.
And I was like, that's it.
That's the last time I ever go against anything they tell me in jury selection.
And just so no one takes something out of context, Robert meant screwing him in the legal sense and in no other sense.
And I made the joke in the comment section, Robert, and Greg, you'll speak to this, the baseline...
Is the baseline of measurement for comparative purposes?
I know Robert's baseline, and I can tell you that Robert is legit pissed off right now based on today's stuff.
But Greg, so maybe it might be the time to go back to the beginning now.
Where are you from?
How many siblings?
What did your parents do?
What generation American are you?
Who are you as an individual human?
Yeah, so in terms of being in the U.S., You can't keep track.
My family came in, I say I have auspicious beginnings, came in as an indentured servant married to the illegitimate daughter of a guy hanging for Bacon's Rebellion.
I'm pretty proud of that.
That's a good stock.
And we evolved on down and ended up settling Georgia back in the late 1700s, early 1800s, moved into Georgia.
So my family's been here a thousand years.
That's what I usually say.
I'm as American as you get.
I'm just what we are.
I was raised in Georgia.
My parents are both very poor, grew up in very small towns in South Georgia, where they still don't have phone service in some of those places, if you really want to imagine that.
I drive through and I'm like, okay, when's my phone going to work again?
And grew up very poor myself, so I joined the Army to pay for school, and that was my opportunity to get out of that life.
And when I joined the Army, I had no idea where I'd go.
I just joined the Army to pay for college.
Got out after four years and decided, yeah, I like the Army better than I like this college.
So I went back in the Army and finished my degree while I was there.
Actually went to one year of law school.
Hated every bit of it.
Quit.
Was smart enough to get in and smart enough to get out, as I often say.
And then left the Army.
And I've been in business for 22, 23 years.
And I'm an operating partner for a by-side advisory for a PE firm, part-time.
And I did 20 years in the Army as an interrogator.
I taught body language and behavior.
And I usually do my little spiel.
20 years in the Army, body language and behavior guy.
Arabic-speaking interrogator.
I was in the first Gulf War with an ODA deployed out in the war.
What's an ODA for someone?
A-teams.
Special Forces Green Beret guys.
I went to war with a team of those guys.
Great, great experience.
They taught me a lot.
And then I worked resistance to interrogation for four years, right alongside all these Green Berets and Delta Force guys and all that.
They taught me a lot of other stuff, worked with Sykes every day, learned a lot from those guys as well.
So it's all that mix that created a much better...
Body language and behavior guy out of me than the rest.
I often usually have a very abbreviated thing, just say I'm a former interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, and leave out 20 plus years of being a corporate guy and working my way up to be a director in a short few years using all this stuff.
And how many books have you written now?
10. I'm working on 11. I've got 12 in the can somewhere.
I just don't want to let it go yet.
Now, one question I've always had, because I've seen different information out there.
People say everybody breaks.
That really nobody can hold up, and it's only a matter of whether you can delay when you break.
Is that true or not true?
Yeah, so let me give you some great examples.
When we say break, there are two kinds of break.
When you're talking about intelligence interrogation, then you're really after getting the person just to divulge information they shouldn't.
Commit treason, if you will.
I used to say I sell treason for a living when I was young.
And then the other is the confession.
So when you say a confession, you can force nearly anybody to confession if you have absolute control.
The reason I say, if you're accused of a crime, get a lawyer.
It's because you stand between that person and all my dirty tricks.
And people will say, what if I'm innocent?
Well, especially if you're innocent.
You need that protection from a guy who's going to use tricks, ruses, and ploys.
What we know is that people will confess to all kinds of things.
My seer days, when we talk about resistance to interrogation, it really is a model of a foreign prisoner of war camp and all the same treatment you can expect.
So you can imagine how rough that can get.
You go in and you spend a few days to a week in captivity living in a concrete cell, brought out, and when you come out, it's more unpleasant than the cell and you're looking to go back.
And you get interrogated eight hours a day, that kind of thing.
Really tough ride.
And what we learned there is within three days, I can change the way you think, just with pressure, pressure, pressure, and no relief.
And so what we would have to do is deprogram these guys after they went through it.
We also know that we changed hormone levels and everything else with them just by dominating them and forcing stress on them.
And these are not average people.
The guys we're talking about are Green Berets, Delta Force, those kind of guys.
And we tested their testosterone levels when they came in day one.
And then day three, under that kind of duress, 95% drop.
So imagine if that works on those guys, what happens when you lock someone up and you have them under high duress?
The same thing's happening.
And anyone who thinks that their mind is their own doesn't understand the hormone.
Yeah, you can get confessions out of just about anybody doing that.
There are a couple of famous cases of people who've been tortured and just said, I don't care what you do.
I'm not going to believe what you say.
I'm not going to do that.
Most important is a guy named Rocky Versace.
If you've ever read a book, Five Years to Freedom, that's Nick Rowe, Dan Pitzer, and Rocky Versace were held in tiger cages in South Vietnam for five years, and they shot Rocky because he just said, screw you, I'm not listening to that.
What do you think led to that?
Is that like a unique life experience, a unique DNA?
What is it with those rare types that somehow could never fold?
For me, I always say each of you has a little box inside.
In that little box are three or four things that you hold precious that really make you.
If I take out your cards that make you up and start tearing them apart.
And to hold up the last one, I get you to personal extinction, is what I refer to it as.
And your personality can't take that.
So if you're using all that psychological pressure, at some point, that card may be, I'm American, and you are not going to break that, and you'll kill me before you tear it up.
Because once you destroy it, there's nothing left anyway.
So when you get a person to that point, and they're against the wall, that's what I think they did to Rocky.
Greg?
So you did 20 years in the military.
Did you do combat or were you doing...
I don't know what the alternative to that is.
Was it active combat at any point or was it more...
Yeah, the first Gulf War.
The Kuwait-Iraq War, yeah.
I was with a team.
We went into Kuwait City.
Did I get shot at personally?
No.
We got all kinds of stuff in our direction and those kinds of things.
But most people didn't get shot at because we used overwhelming firepower.
And there's nothing like that to win a war, a well-orchestrated war where we used air superiority and all that.
But I was up front and with a team.
We were with the Kuwaiti Army.
We were up along the – if you look at the way the war went, we went up along the coast.
And I was with – at that time with a B team.
And we went up into the front part of – up onto the shore.
We were drawing enemy.
Armor down on top of us because they thought what was going to happen is the Marines were going to land, so they feigned a landing.
They brought them down on top of us and then armor swept out to the west and wiped out their tanks before they could do much damage.
What we found is by the time we were ready to get into the city, they were so terrified they were running away.
This might be my own, not hang up, but my own obsession, fear of death and the concept of death.
Do you come across it in your military service?
Oh, sure.
One question I have is, for people who have actually had to kill someone in battle, how does that destroy someone or affect someone for the rest of their life?
And having witnessed it, what impact does that leave on you?
And how does that affect you going forward in your day-to-day, coming back to civilian life?
Well, I saw a lot of people dead or injured badly enough that they died over time.
And what it did for me, I think, is just make me realize life is short.
Don't waste your time on things that don't matter.
Don't argue with idiots.
Don't waste your time on those kinds of things.
It keeps me out of the comments on our YouTube channel, not arguing with idiots, for example.
You stay off Twitter, probably, as a result.
Don't waste quite that much time there.
I try.
But I will tell you what it did for me.
And I was in my 20s.
I was in my 20s.
And you're not in a situation where you're thinking about life and death.
It put me there immediately.
It puts you to a place that most of us don't until we're older.
So it made you think about life and death and about the value of another soldier.
These guys are soldiers.
They're not terrorists.
They're not criminals.
These are conscripts who are forced by their government at gunpoint often to come across the border and fight for whatever right they thought they had.
So when you're interrogating those guys, when you're fighting those guys, you really, really don't want to kill them just to kill them.
You want to try to deter, stand down as much of that as you can.
And I think the Green Beret guys taught me that as much as anything.
Why would you kill somebody you don't have to?
Why would you go about things you don't have to?
If you're the kind of guy who thinks, you know, kill, kill, kill is all there is to war, if you think that, there's a lot more to it.
You're PSYOPs, civil affairs, public affairs, intelligence, to avoid as much of that as you can because you've got to rebuild that when it's over.
When did you first get involved in the body language interrogation side of the equation?
Here's the funny part.
I wanted to learn language.
I was that guy.
I took some aptitude tests, scored really high, and they said, okay, you can learn Chinese, Arabic, Korean, or Japanese.
I'd lived in Korea for a year, and I thought, Arabic sounds really cool.
I don't know anything about that culture.
I had met a couple of Arabs is about it in college.
I took language, and when you take a language, you have to do something with that language.
They give you a list of jobs you can do.
One is counterintelligence.
And that's a gray man kind of job where you kind of disappear into the woodwork.
I happen to have really bright red hair, about as curly as Viva's.
So, you know, mix in very well when you look like that.
And I'm a little over six foot tall, so I stand out for that.
Then the other was, we call them antenna heads.
They were voice intercept guys who sat in with headphones on listening.
Not for me.
The interrogator thing just seemed like the best route.
Had no idea I would be a much better interrogator than linguist.
That would become my passion.
And while I was in interrogator school, I got my set in my first orders to go and teach resistance.
So I went to Fort Bragg and onto the Sear compound and taught resistance for four years.
And in the process of that, worked anti-terror, get some bodyguard certification and bodyguard trainer stuff.
So kind of a fun young 20-something.
But you learn Arabic from scratch as an adult.
Yes.
With no prior knowledge of the characters or anything of the language, are you fluent?
Would you qualify yourself as fluent?
Today, I would say, when I'm in the Middle East, I was in Jordan four years ago, I can get around.
When I was talking to people, I could get around and find my way about things.
When I was 30, I was pretty fluent.
I wouldn't say I was fluent like native fluency, but what you would call functional fluency.
I could absolutely get around, ask questions, do things.
When we were working during the war, I was with other people who didn't speak English or Arabic.
I was the middle man in a lot of that and had to, at times, go, for example, buy wire for Before the actual ground war started to wire some lights and was able to figure all that out and negotiate language.
You don't have to know every word.
You just have to say, you might look like an idiot.
I remember going up and asking a guy, hey, do you have one of those things that you use to work on pipe?
And he looked at me like I was an idiot and used the word for pipe wrench.
And I was like, okay, yeah, that.
And then asked for, you know, pliers.
And he said, pliers?
Like I'm stupid?
Yeah, yeah, that.
So negotiating language is as important and paying attention to body language and all that.
It's as important as being able to speak it.
So you can read, you can identify the characters.
You learned, not that it's a new language, but for anybody who doesn't know, I would say it's Chinese to me.
It's characters that have no correlation to anything we know in English, and you managed to do that as an adult.
You know, it actually isn't hard.
I mean, it depends on how your brain works.
What I found, Arabic's kind of an algebraic language.
So there's a formula, you apply the formula, and it works across.
They're measures of verbs.
They're only 29 letters, 29 characters, and they're all pronounced except for a couple that are by nature just a diacritical mark.
There are no vowels in written Arabic in the newspapers and that.
So you just have to understand the shape of the word.
I often try to remind people of that when they talk about the Middle East to say, yeah, these guys don't have vowels.
In their written language, they just have to understand them based on where the consonants are.
It's powerful.
But yeah, they have a formula.
There's a method for teaching.
And the first two weeks, you learn to read script.
It's just sound in script.
Make the sound.
Look at how it's written.
Learn to make those sounds.
And then move to the next.
And it is a very complex language in its own way with all the nuance and subtlety that I'll never understand because I was not raised in the culture.
But I could functionally get around.
I've actually got a book over here.
I was looking to see.
One of my books has been translated to Arabic, and I can read the title out loud, so it's kind of a cool thing.
That is, yeah, yeah.
What would be, hello, my name is Greg Hartley in Arabic?
So hello is just, ismi, Greg Hartley.
That's all.
It's me.
Yeah, it's fascinating.
So now, for you, was the military experience rewarding?
Some people talk about the sense of camaraderie they get with their fellow soldiers and the rest.
Well, what was it for you in terms of the social experience?
Yeah, so for me, I joined, like I said, right out of high school.
I spent six months trying to figure a better way and then thought, what the hell?
Joined, went off, did some fun.
Fun stuff.
And then I didn't really enjoy my first four years as much.
Great people enjoyed them.
I just didn't enjoy the work I was doing.
And then I was in Arlington Cemetery for two years.
And I can still remember standing.
That was a great honor.
But it's not what I wanted to do for a living.
It's a great honor for anybody who goes there.
And it can become a career.
So I was in Arlington for two years.
That was fantastic.
Great people.
I still keep in touch with some of them.
That whole infantry mindset.
One of my buddies is listening tonight.
Hey, Rick.
One of those guys from that time, I still keep in touch with a couple of others.
Then when I went to DLI, when I was in Monterey for language, two years in Monterey, California doesn't suck either, even to learn language.
So we were, for two years there, some of the best NCOs I ever worked with in my life, a couple of good officers in that corps, lots of good kids that we turned into soldiers that just came from basic training.
Then off to interrogator school, and that was kind of boring, but was what it was, just to get puncher ticket.
When I worked here, I had some of the most professional people, the best camaraderie I ever had.
And then I did some reserve time.
And then my last assignment, I taught reservists.
And I was at Fort Dix, New Jersey.
And with a bunch of guys who were senior citizens by Army terms, forced out of the Army on age at 60, you can't stay past 60. A lot of these guys retired as senior warrant officers at 60 years old.
So I remember it well as being developmental for me.
There's still people.
There's a guy.
That I keep in touch with that was known as the bearded one, the scariest guy I ever knew back in those days.
And he was just a great friend, great mentor, and taught me.
And a couple of others, a guy named David Hastings, and a guy named Will Christ.
Some of the best guys I ever met at teaching you to think differently and to think about.
The Army is about two things.
It's kind of a dichotomy.
We preach and scream freedom, and we have none.
That's always the funniest part of it.
Can you describe for people what SEER is?
Yeah.
What's the acronym, by the way?
It's S-E-R-E.
Survival, evasion, resistance, and escape.
So the first part, you learn to kill animals, you know, chickens, that kind of stuff, rabbits, and you have to cook whatever you kill and eat it.
And you learn to eat weeds and snakes and whatever else you find out there.
And then the evasion is about getting away and not being captured.
We always said, you know...
Six weeks on the run is a lot better than one day in prison.
So they teach you how to hide, how to build hide sites, how to run, and they drop you off.
And when they drop you off, you try to hide and not get caught.
In my day, I'll talk about the mechanics of it a little.
In my day, they'd drop you off with a knife, a piece of rope, a canteen full of water, and some iodine so you could get muddy water and drink it.
And you had to run for it.
You'd run for it.
There were people on your team, five or six people on your team.
And you had a point to go to each day, 15 kilometers from the day before.
And you moved at night, because if you move during the day, you're fair game.
If they caught you, they moved you back to yesterday's start point.
And if they didn't catch you, and you're at your point, they'd leave you alone once you got to your point.
So you're going through the woods in the middle of the night.
I went in March, so temperatures are all over the board.
And then when you're captured, you're like, I would have much rather been out in the cold and wet than this.
And you do that for a little while.
What we do is teach you how to escape, but we don't want people to escape.
And someone says, Truth Casual says, everyone gets caught.
Yeah, it's a contrived capture.
You have no choice.
You're catalyzed to a point where we get our hands on you.
This sounds like a real-life version of a Spartan race, like one of the more harsh Spartan races where we did that.
A lot more.
Yeah, but we did 50 kilometers where you get up, you start at 5 in the morning, you get obstacles, you don't know where you're going.
This sounds kind of awesome, except for the iodine pills and drinking muddy water, because that's how you get Giardia, but that's my own hang-up.
You would enjoy it, except for the prison part of it.
Once you get to prison, it kind of sucks.
I think I would enjoy every part of it without the idea of missing time with the family.
Without a family, all of these things sound like great adventures, great fun, which I guess is when you have to get into it, but then it's when you start comparing it to what you're not doing in life.
It gets hard by comparison.
But Greg, one quick question to get over the childhood stuff.
Siblings and what did your parents do?
So I have three siblings, two brothers and a sister, very close to all of them.
My dad worked with his hands his whole life.
He was a mechanic, did a little bit of everything.
Not always the best of jobs.
He was missing fingers and that kind of thing over the years.
He had one finger taken off by really shoddy workmanship of a tool.
Good, hardworking people.
My mom worked for an insurance company until she retired, and both of them worked up until close to the end of their life and never really had a whole lot, but had what they needed to get through life and those kinds of things.
Not educated, both dropped out of high school.
My dad dropped out very, very young.
My dad was one of three children.
His father left before he was born.
In 1938.
So if you can imagine the stigma in South Georgia associated with that, very tough times.
My mother was one of eight children, and her father worked kind of sharecropper-ish on dairy farms, that kind of thing.
So they never had anything.
And for them to stand up and work hard to get us to the next level so we could take that next step was important.
I told you my family's been here forever, but they're all Southern.
So about 1865, all their wealth ceased.
And they ended up in a different kind of place.
Now, the siblings, has everybody stayed in the South, or have they spread out?
Yeah, I'm the only one who left and moved.
My brother lives a half mile from me now.
He moved here not long ago.
My other two siblings live right by where my mother lived.
My mother passed in September, and we were all there with her as she passed.
They never left.
My brother runs his own business.
My sister has a small business.
And then my little brother has worked a little bit afterwards.
Public schools, I assume, and any particular religious upbringing?
Yeah, so I grew up in the South, so of course there's religion.
Sundays are for church, and Saturdays for football.
But then I grew up in Southern Baptist, that kind of place, or Pentecostal is where my parents grew up, but not overly religious.
It wasn't a giant part of my life.
It was just an ordinary part of my life, I guess you would say.
Public schools, for sure.
I went to a whole lot of schools.
I moved a fair amount because we were poor.
We moved around a lot in the little town.
I went to, I think, three elementary schools.
Same high school, same middle school.
It's a small town, military base.
The cool thing about the town I grew up in is it's a military town.
I grew up with people from all over the world, all kinds of cultures.
You know, you don't think the same way when you grow up in a military town, I think, as you do if you live in a rural town where you don't have the same influence.
And I saw people from all over the world.
Now, Greg, so the military stuff is interesting because it trains you for what you do in the corporate world.
But 20 years in the corporate world, if I understood correctly.
That's right.
Okay.
What does that look like?
And what do you do for the 20 years of your experience in the corporate world?
And how do you find that experience coming from the military, going into a totally different environment?
Well, you know, one of the more interesting things I've ever had is I was in an executive development program at NSEAD University for the company I was working for.
And they had a psychologist come in and I said, and they're looking for how to make you better.
And I found that cute and amusing.
But when I asked her, so what do you think, how can you make me less American when I'm dealing with people?
Because I was dealing with a European company.
She said, you're fine.
You know, you're an American, but you don't come across as this or that.
What she did say is you need to be less military.
And I said, this is my brand.
It took me a long time to make it.
I'm not listening to anything you got to say from here on out.
But I started off as a construction guy.
I ran construction projects for a big, big company for a while.
Then I was good at it.
And all I was doing, candidly, is what I do.
I work people and get what I needed done.
And if that's manipulation or whatever you want to think of it as, that's what I did to get jobs done and get everything finished.
And so the company hired me to go and run construction management.
For the company.
And I became kind of a fix-it guy.
So my whole career throughout my life, and my dad, like I say, my dad was a mechanic, and I always say I learned everything I need to know from him.
Anything that's broken can be fixed.
And so I fixed business for 20 years and got pretty good at it and then got picked up by PE guys.
And so it's been a fun ride.
When did you write your first book?
Yeah, 2005, I wrote my first book.
It actually came out of that project management thing.
I was running construction projects and got sent to some stupid project management war games thing.
It was a simulation.
And I was really irritated because I was building public schools and it was summertime, which is everything to a construction of schools.
So they sent me, and I was in a pissy mood, really, really bad mood.
And I just manipulated the role players constantly, their drives, until they thought I could walk on water.
And the guy who was running the program said, you've got to write a book.
And I said, I don't have time to learn to write a book.
I have a new career, and, and, and.
So he pushed me, found me a writing partner.
And eventually what he said was, look, you don't need to learn to write.
Just get somebody to help you.
Get somebody to be a partner.
And I've written 10 books with the same woman.
I always say we're like an old married couple.
It's just kind of the way we can finish each other's sentences.
You're not actually married to the person with whom you co-wrote the books, correct?
No.
We would kill each other.
We would kill each other.
One thing.
Scott Adams, I don't know if he said it on a stream or where he said it, but he said in between writing books, you have to take time to stop because writing books is painful.
You write 10 books.
Explain what goes into writing one book, let alone 10, but then also explain How you write 10 books without worrying about being too repetitive and overlapping?
Because I don't know how you get original content for 10 books.
10 videos, fine.
But 10 books seems...
Wow.
It's difficult to not repeat.
And the good thing about what I do with behavior and body language is you're constantly learning.
Take my military experience.
That was one...
You bring new things to it.
Now, are there pieces of it?
Sure, you have to repeat certain things in your book because you can't assume that everybody understands the basics, you know, like the five pieces of body language.
But yeah, you try to keep it separate.
For me, it's relatively easy because it's me thinking of how to apply what I know in the situation I'm going to.
And then it's more about, okay, how do I...
Talk about this in a way that's fresh.
It gets people to understand how these things work.
And it's not the same as writing fiction.
Fiction, I can't imagine writing fiction.
It's not the way my brain's wired.
I've participated and helped a Hollywood guy write a book that we'll see where it goes.
But for me, it's more about talking about something and how it works together than it is about creating some grandiose plan.
You know, that kind of thing.
Now, married yourself?
Yes.
How'd you meet her?
Been together.
Online, believe it or not.
A long, long time ago.
MySpace online?
Oh, before that.
It was when Match.com probably first came out, if I remember.
It's that long ago.
We've been together since 2000.
I did theater when I was young, so I was doing some regional theater.
All I kept meeting were 25-year-olds and I was almost 40. I thought, okay, that's all right and fun.
I would like somebody my age.
So I went on there.
I did it for about three months.
The day I was turning it off, I get this note from this one.
We start talking.
And I didn't have the picture.
And she didn't know I had red hair.
And she had a kid.
And I was like...
But yeah, we got together and we just clicked immediately.
And we've been together ever since.
Fantastic.
Did you do any body language analysis in the first meetup?
Yeah.
So she says...
What she remembers the most is I met her for a drink.
And I was watching her and looking at her.
And you know...
I was analyzing everything she said, of course, because I didn't want to end up with a crazy.
She ends up with a crazy, it turns out.
But anyway, I just watched her body language, and what she told people was he was taking me apart physically.
She didn't yet know about the body language stuff.
She just knew that I was digitally watching every move she made, so she thought I was rating her physical appearance.
Now, Greg, is this your first marriage and only marriage?
No, no, no.
I was married young, like 23, and divorced by 26. Bad choice for both of us.
And she's somewhere in the world, I'm sure, happy now.
All right, now, you said something where, hold on, the five pieces of body language.
So first of all, you said you don't want to repeat everything in every book, but the five pieces of body language is clearly like the baseline of what everyone needs to know of body language, so you don't have to repeat it.
What is it?
Tell us now so I can take further notes.
These are the easiest, and I'm going to give you a mnemonic device because I taught soldiers.
And if you can give people mnemonic devices, it's easier for them to remember.
So gesture, and this is the word I use, is gesture.
Some folks may use emblem.
But holding your thumb up, in the U.S., at least, means something.
It has to be something everybody understands.
You can't make up your own.
You can't go and think people understand that.
It has to be something people understand, right?
Peace sign, whatever it is.
That's a gesture, and that's simply a way of making a sentence or a phrase with a simple action.
Raising one finger can do it.
In the U.S., in the U.K., you may have to raise two to get the same message across, but you get that idea.
So that's a gesture.
Use your thumb.
You won't forget.
The next is an illustrator, and an illustrator is your body punctuating what your mind is thinking.
It often doesn't correlate to what you're saying.
Your body is going to punctuate what you're thinking, even if your words are wrong.
And you'll see it all the time.
The reason I use my index finger is because that's called, by Desmond Morris, one of the godfathers of body language, that's called batoning.
And you'll notice politicians don't do it anymore.
In World War II, you'd see them doing this all the time.
Bill Clinton's the last president to do this.
And he did it.
He did it with a fist, too.
Oh, but that was after he got in trouble.
Because his last denial, when he was doing this, he said, I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
Ms. Lewinsky.
And I love the fact, I'll get to that in a second.
I'll go back to that statement in a second.
That's illustrator.
So it's gesture, illustrator.
Then the next one is a regulator.
Regulator is a way we control conversation.
Hold my hand up.
I may go like this.
Go faster.
Stop.
All of those things are regulators to control conversation.
They can be different in different parts of the world.
Culture affects everything.
So it's gesture, illustrator, regulator.
Then it's adapter.
And the reason I use Your ring finger is because people will spin their ring when they're feeling stress.
All an adapter is a way to release nervous energy and make yourself comfortable.
If you think about putting an animal in a cage, they pace to release nervous energy.
Some people do, but a lot of people will play with a ring, twirl their hair, play with their nails, tap their fingers.
It's releasing nervous energy.
So I'll go back through each one of them so you don't forget.
Gesture, Illustrator, Regulator, Adapter.
And then the final one is a barrier.
So put both your hands together.
I need space.
I put something between me and you.
It can be anything from this to, you know, a bottle.
And you can combine all of them.
So it's gesture, illustrator, regulator, barrier.
I'm sorry, adapter, barrier.
And you can combine them.
You see people standing in a bar all the time holding a bottle and peeling a label.
What they're doing is barriering, making space.
And then releasing nervous energy by peeling.
And I call that sacred space because humans like to be in control of their environment.
It's a way to take control of something.
That's it.
Once you get that, all this other subtlety, we look at muscles and all that, that's really good stuff.
But if you can learn to pay attention to what's changing in those five pieces, you'll be amazed what you see.
And what do you think?
Like, I learned the importance of this.
Of Clinton's shift to this.
In a 1997 mayoral campaign, I was running an African-American candidate for Chattanooga, would have been the first African-American mayor.
We came up just literally one point short.
There was some election fortification that happened back then, too.
A lot of those folks ended up in jail, but that's another story for another day.
But one of the things that's interesting is we originally had him doing this, and we found that...
Particularly, it showed some racial issues too, that white women didn't, and I thought also had Clinton aspects and other, white women in particular didn't like it.
They didn't like a man pointing at them.
So I was like, oh, but if we do this, they had no problem.
It seemed affirmative and strong, but no longer invasive, no longer something else.
Whipping, yep.
Well, interestingly, the military knew that.
A thousand years ago.
The military, when you're pointing to someone, you use your hand this way.
You'll notice people who have been in the military use their hand.
They blade their hand instead of pointing their finger.
That's fascinating.
Greg, so two things.
I'll read these because I brought it up.
Greg, thanks for your service in Desert Storm.
Your thoughts on body language whilst playing poker.
Any general tells of untruthfulness.
This is one thought I had while watching.
When I jog, I watch poker.
And the World Series of Poker is now running.
Yeah, gathering information, like why do we not see more experts or behavioralists in poker?
But also a similar question along the same lines.
If most people knew how to read body language, is that good or more dangerous?
Two good questions merging into one.
How do you feel about them?
Yeah, so in terms of poker, I thought I should try it because poker really isn't about cards and I understand it.
I just never took the time to be good at it.
And even though people who can count cards could probably beat me because they'll be so focused on what they're doing.
But I should go and give it a try.
I have friends who keep saying come and play.
I think that as long as you can pick up when they're bluffing, you see a pattern.
Because people develop patterns around everything they do.
And if they're apprehensive, then you'll see it for sure.
Because when we talk about deception, when we talk about signs of deception, there are no body language signs of deception.
There are signs of discomfort or stress.
And that's associated with trying to hide something.
Because if I tell you something and I then go out after that data...
Or somebody tells you, and then I go after the data.
It's going to create stress in you because our little brains are pretty primitive.
And we all want to believe that we're much more complex than we really are.
These two little things called the amygdala inside your brain get first vote on how you behave.
And when the thalamus picks up data and starts sorting it, it sends it to two places, to your cognitive brain and to these little amygdala.
And if the amygdala decide, hey, that's a threat, you respond.
So you can teach yourself over time.
To not stress as much.
And so those poker players who are fantastic are ones who have gotten to that point.
They're really calm.
I think it's funny when they wear dark glasses and that because it's not usually their eyes that give them away.
It's the forehead or the breathing or the nostrils or changing in blood flow to mucous membranes and that kind of thing.
We're pretty simple critters.
In terms of would it be better if everybody knew?
If everybody really knew, yeah, it would be better.
But most people get that much and then they're an expert.
We get just the hell beaten out of us in the comments on the behavior panel because everybody knows more than we do.
Greg, if everybody knew, it wouldn't be a question of reading other people's intent for nefarious purposes or manipulative purposes.
It would just be a question of understanding other people because body language, there's an aspect to it that can be considered manipulation.
You want to get people, others, to do what you want to do but let them think it was their decision to do it.
Another part is it's just about understanding other people, knowing when they are uncomfortable without showing it, knowing when they're nervous and why they're nervous, and then figuring out how to quell those concerns.
So it would be great if everyone understood it to the extent it would allow you to understand other people, but people would try to weaponize it for their own gain.
That's the key.
That's the key.
If everyone were above board, yes.
I'll give you a great example.
It's been many, many years ago.
I was pulling out and a woman was in the acceleration lane, older than me.
Probably about the age I am now.
And I look over.
I see she's pulling out.
So I pull up in her rear end of her car and destroy the back end of her car.
And she jumps out.
She's screaming and yelling and swinging her hands.
And I could just see it.
You know, she's desperate.
She's panicked.
And the weirdest thing, I just knew.
I reached around and hugged her and said, it's going to be okay.
I hit you.
It's not a problem.
We'll take care of this.
And she calmed right down.
Asymmetric behavior matters.
I could see that in her face, though, that she had something else going on.
And she told me she's going through a divorce, and this is her husband's car, and, and, and.
And you could see it written all over.
That's when you use it appropriately, as opposed to manipulating or that kind of thing.
But you're right, Viva.
If everybody did what is right, it would be one thing.
But then you know what would happen.
You weaponize it, you get better at an aspect of it.
That's human nature.
We're all, in Maslow, Chase always says, I'm flashing an Illuminati sign when I do that.
The triangle of Maslow.
We're getting to the Maslow hierarchy of needs, but just one thing to stop you there.
You said you pulled out an asymmetrical or an asymmetry.
You used the word asymmetry.
Yeah, asymmetric behavior.
Asymmetric behavior.
So you're yelling at me.
You yell at me and I calm down.
I just go, it's okay.
It doesn't matter.
And it works with a lot of situations when someone's angry, if you're not, and you're the calm one.
In my business career, in all the years of teaching people to manage construction, and that's an ugly business.
I mean, people get really nasty with each other.
In a lot of cases.
And a lot of it's over contract, oddly enough.
But we get in there and you're screaming and yelling at each other.
What I would usually do is just stand and go, wait until you're done.
Give you about 30 seconds of silence and say, I can see you're upset.
What do we have to do to fix this?
You feel like an idiot.
And it's powerful.
It gives you control of the situation.
You know who was exceptional at that, though I think he learned it in professional acting, was Wesley Snipes.
Whenever people were angry around him, he calmed down.
He would get calmer and calmer and calmer.
It was an impressive trait.
But what was interesting is we learned that even in his case, we went in thinking he had to testify because of the nature of the accusations, because of his celebrity.
And I found out something that I would find out in every mock trial and every trial I've done since, which is it almost never serves the defendant to testify.
Outside of very rare circumstances, and it's largely because of misinterpretation of body language by jurors.
Could you explain some of that?
I mean, we just saw an example where Kyle Rittenhouse is tired and exhausted going into court because...
Any 18-year-old who faces life in prison probably didn't get a lot of sleep the last week.
He yawns.
He yawns just without covering the yawn.
And all of a sudden, it's front-page news on the New York Post.
But people misinterpret it, misread it.
They project all these traits onto them that don't fit at all.
But it's just one illustration of many of how difficult it is because so many jurors think they know body language and don't.
Well, Greg, you can feel this.
I mean, I know this.
I believe I know.
I know it from having heard it somewhere, that yawning is stereotypically a question of boredom, but actually physiologically not.
It could be stress as well in terms of trying to squeeze excess oxygen to the brain.
So yawning doesn't mean he's disinterested.
It doesn't mean he doesn't care or insensitive.
It could mean he's under extreme stress and therefore doing it as that result.
Tell me I'm smart.
Yeah, you are smart.
And the key here is, now we're back to Maslow.
What happens in these big cases?
You know, we just did this Cleo Smith case last week, missing a little girl in Australia.
And we said, look, they're red flags in the person's behavior, but they don't mean what you think they mean.
They mean this person's stressed and feeling guilt, and, and, and.
And we were beaten to hell in the comments.
And now, oh.
They found the little girl.
Parents didn't have anything to do with it.
So what happens is people get wedged into a camp or the other, and they then project onto that person, and they're going to say a yawn is because you're bored, as opposed to, like you're saying, lots of reasons that people can yawn.
I actually think one of the most powerful tools for rapport building, just cold rapport building, is a yawn.
If I sit down on a bench next to you and I go...
And then they imitate the behavior?
Well, they're probably going to say, don't start that.
They started the conversation.
I didn't.
And I'll say, oh, yeah, I had a rough night last night.
Boom.
Now they start talking to me and they have no idea.
You just work them.
I got to tell you one thing.
The asymmetrical response.
During COVID, I backed into a person on a motorcycle at a gas station because I didn't see them and knocked them over on their bike.
And it was not because they were bikers that I was upset.
I was upset because the world was stressed.
And then the biker guy, one of the biker guys, literally hugged me.
And it was the weirdest thing in the world.
The response only, I was stressed and I was freaked out and I had just bumped someone's motorcycle and thought I had damaged it.
And then the guy with his big leather jacket and big leather gloves hugged me.
I don't think he did it as any manipulative tactic, but the impact that it had was exactly what you described.
It was like, it was the exact opposite of what I was expecting under the circumstances.
And it was a beautiful moment, which I remembered.
And you triggered that response.
I just wanted to get that off my chest.
So this thing about people projecting their own interpretations of superficial analysis of body language, how do you get past it?
And is that not a danger of a little bit of information being more dangerous than none at all?
It for sure is.
One of the things that people beat this woman, Ellie Smith, up about, for example, on our thing about Cleo Smith, is she smiled.
Well, her face structure is kind of smiley.
And I use the example of a guy that went through Sear that we tried our best to take the smile off of his face and there's just no way.
It's just the way his body is made.
So her flat affect was kind of a smile.
And people project onto that.
Oh, she doesn't care.
It's Duper's Delight.
That's the most overdone of body language things to me is people always say, oh, she's got Duper's Delight.
You know, because she smiled nervously or that kind of thing.
Often people read one thing and that means everything.
I touch my nose, it means I'm lying.
I tug at my ear, it means I'm lying.
And you're right.
That's the problem is people get a little bit of knowledge and then they think they're experts.
And in today's world where everyone can be an expert with no knowledge just because they got a keyboard, it's crazy times.
And one of the things that you guys do is help witnesses prepare and help people prepare for presentations.
What are some of the things that you guys do that help people bridge that gap between who they really are and sometimes the misperception of who they are?
Yeah, I think Mark did a great TED Talk called Don't Be Your Genuine Self.
I forget the exact thing.
We have to look it up when you bring Mark on.
But be disingenuous and you'll be better off.
Because most people really don't want to know who you are when you're doing something like this.
They want to see what they expect.
There's that old how you dress.
People perceive you based on how you dress.
If a guy comes in with a nose ring and tattoos, you're going to jump to a conclusion.
If a guy comes in in a business suit.
And cleaned up, you jump to another conclusion.
It depends on you, of course, in your background.
And you guys have to figure out who's the audience, who you're trying to get through to.
So once you know who's in the jury and you have a rough idea of that, then you have a little bit different approach.
For example, you would treat me very differently if I had bright red hair sticking up in all directions and looked.
You know, I was not groomed or that kind of thing you would with my head shaved.
You know, people have a different opinion depending on what their background and that kind of thing is.
And so everybody has a deal.
The behavior piece, you need to always cue them to be careful about things that are those old tropes touching your nose.
Doesn't matter whether it's true or not.
Just because I know that this doesn't mean you're blocking me out doesn't mean the jury does.
So you've got to be careful and not cross your body.
You got to go to all those high school psychology things and make sure they don't do that.
And we all know, we all know that we're going to respond to stress in a certain way.
So sometimes it's a matter of just telling them, take account.
I do it to business people.
I've run into a lot of people who ask me, how do I not cry?
How do I not show emotion?
How do I not show stress?
And one of my best cues, if you're watching this and you have stress in front of people, and Joel, I hated the tiny box, it's here too.
But if you curl your toes in your shoes, you're adapting.
You're releasing nervous energy.
And no one can see it.
On the other hand, if you scratch your face, they can see that.
So I try to give people cues of places to hide stress in corporate America.
It's really an easy way to deal with things.
I think it gives people an out because they're going to do it.
The other thing is, fight or flight takes our thinking brain offline.
It takes off the frontal cortex and all that.
And it allows us then to operate like a cat, just respond to stimulus and try to stay out of harm's way.
When you think, well, Hartley told me to curl my toes in my shoes, you're bringing your thinking brain back online because you're using memory.
So you're defeating that cycle as well.
And anything that can get you out of that battle between the amygdala and the thinking brain.
It's a good thing.
So we try to push them that way.
A lot of SEER does that, as a matter of fact.
It's exposure.
It's inoculation against interrogation techniques.
It's all of that to get a person to a point where they are feeling more comfortable in the environment.
Fascinating.
My dad used to teach me when I was a kid to, whenever you feel pain, think about something else.
And what was fascinating was the mere practice of trying to think about something else actually reduced the immediate effect of the pain.
So that's fascinating.
It's a distraction from the problem.
Yes.
That's interesting.
Now, have you ever read David Ball?
I have his book, David Ball, on damages.
There's a bunch of them.
But basically, it's about the power of the reptilian brain, in essence.
So it's like that all trials are about deep levels of emotional and psychological survival, and that you have to restructure everything that you do in terms of emotive presentation, narrative presentation, empirical presentation, to meet that reptilian brain in the back.
It's not going to be what we're taught in law school, which, you know, sit there and you study the facts and you examine the law.
You apply the law to the facts.
That's pure mythology.
The number of lawyers who still believe it is shocking.
A lot of what you're describing is similar.
Where did you learn all this?
We're going to talk about all the different parts of the brain.
Was that part of your body language training?
It's interesting.
When we talk about body language training, I started with a couple of little seminars around eye movement and that kind of thing when I was at SEER.
We had a great opportunity at SEER.
We wrote the story that these guys are supposed to be hiding.
And then they had to lie to us and cover it up.
So there's no better laboratory than eight hours a day, four days a week, interrogating people who are trying to hide a story that you wrote.
And so I just started noticing and writing things in the notebook and asking a psychologist and then going and digging and looking.
And yeah, one of the best books you'll ever find is, I think it's called The Owner's Manual for the Human Brain.
Great book.
It tells you it's a lot of studies that are out and they update it once in a while.
And you can flip through there and find out.
Learnings from applied brain mapping and all those kinds of things.
So that's how I learned a lot of this stuff is just by digging on my own.
And then you synergize things that you have already learned.
And why does a person do this?
Why does a person do that?
First lesson I ever learned was a psychologist on staff.
And I was pushing this guy, pushing this guy.
And he started to cry.
And I came out and said, how do you stop that?
And he said, well, what do you think he's doing if he's lying?
And I said, well, he's using something in his brain to make him cry.
Well, put more pressure on him.
And what will happen?
Is either you're really hitting something that's causing him a cry and he'll really ball up, or you'll get him so far past that point that he's using that he can't use it anymore, to your point of distraction.
Sure enough, I put a lot of pressure on him, tears dried up.
So it's one of the first things I learned.
Keep putting that pressure.
Here's one thing.
Chase Hughes six-minute x-ray.
I've virtually done it, but one of the lessons is, and it's not a new one to Chase, but...
We're all fundamentally broken.
We all fundamentally have our own foibles in all of this.
This is the issue.
Someone looks at you and says, okay, you're great at what you do.
You're an expert.
But nonetheless, you are also fundamentally broken.
You have your own issues.
Do you introspect to say, these are my own issues?
And what are your own issues if you have to...
Well, yeah, I'm not going to share those, but yeah.
I was almost there.
I was using manipulative tactics learned in six-minute x-ray.
But you know what?
All of us start off as these little perfect organisms, right?
As perfect as we can be.
And that doesn't mean that we don't have any kind of biological issue or that kind of thing.
But I always say every one of us is a two-year-old covered in scars and hair.
That's all you are.
You just keep adding layers of...
Bullshit to your life.
And how you deal with that either gets better or doesn't.
And what the pearl looks like is all dependent on how those layers are put down.
And if your parents treat you like crap when you're a kid, you got something to deal with going through that.
If you're poor and that bothers you, then you got something to deal with that.
Wherever you came from, wherever you started is going to always impact.
And I think if you look at most people, if they're honest with themselves, they would know, hey, I'm responding to some stimulus from a younger age.
And all of us have.
I mean, we're organisms.
And you'll hear me say all the time, and I piss people off when I say it, but the organism does what made the organism successful.
If you stay in one environment, it gets more and more and more entrenched.
The more places you move between and learn, the more talent you're going to have at things and at dealing with those issues.
But if you stay in one place and you become the big fish in a little pond and you just keep layering and layering and layering, it's really hard to back out of that.
It's really hard to change.
And I think where midlife crisis comes from for people is there are a handful of things I always say.
When we're young, we're idealist.
The world's our oyster.
Everything is perfect.
You'll recognize this at your age.
Then when you get into your next phase, you go into realistic.
And realistic's like, well, I'm not so good at everything, but I'm really good at this.
And then you paint and paint and paint, and you're painting backwards.
And then you get to a place where you go to pessimistic, like, damn it, I painted myself in a corner and I got nowhere to go.
That's where I think midlife crisis hits and people panic.
And then they go to opportunistic where they go after, and this is a book I'm finishing, right?
But as these guys go to opportunistic, then they're looking for whatever it takes to get there.
And then they rationalize their behavior at the end.
And I think all of us go through life doing exactly those steps.
And I've watched myself.
You can drag backward or forward, but it's kind of a mess.
If you don't pay attention to yourself somewhere along the way and realize why you're responding to something a certain way.
And then two components I want to get into.
One is the body language panel.
The other one is the special, the new project that you and Chase have.
I mean, sorry, you and Scott have.
I had Chase on my mind because I saw the comment about Tan Daddy.
Everybody loves Chase.
Yeah, well, yeah, if you're around him long enough, he'll hypnotize you until you get it.
I remember when I was talking to him in North Carolina, he was talking about Eric Hundley with...
Had warned people, make sure you go with another person when you meet Chase, because who knows about the hypnosis?
But how did you meet all of those guys?
What has that been like, and what have been some of the highlights?
I mean, I see all the memes, which are great.
I think one of the latest ones had you as the Statue of Liberty, which was great.
But how has that whole experience been?
So interestingly, I met Scott years ago.
I quit body language entirely about 2015.
I lost my son and I just walked away from everything.
And I quit it.
I just went to a day job and that was it.
And I probably would never have come back.
But Scott dragged me back and started doing some things with Scott.
So Scott and I have been partners on a couple of things.
And he'll have to tell you the story about how we met.
He was terrified that I was going to do something to him because he had stolen a line from one of my books.
I was flattered, not angered.
So I met Scott first.
And then through Scott, I met Mark, and I wrote some in one of his books.
So I knew Mark in passing, from a distance, never met him.
We still haven't met face-to-face.
Mark and I haven't.
And then we met Chase through Eric Hundley.
So Eric Hundley is kind of the reason the behavior panel is together.
It's been a great thing.
I kind of had an idea.
My original idea was to get a bunch of Bigfoot.
And UFO guys together and just start taking their stories apart a long time ago when I first started talking to Scott.
But what we decided was when COVID hit, we were trying to figure out, let's get together.
Let's do something.
Let's just do a little YouTube show.
See if people like her, if they hate it.
And this young guy I know said, you got to watch this Tiger King thing.
And I thought, oh, here we go.
So Carole Baskin was our first run.
And it's just been a great fun thing.
We get together on Tuesdays.
They're kind of the highlight of my week.
We get together and it's like, I always describe it as like a bunch of kids before, you know, when you're 12 years old, hanging out and BS and behind the scenes is just us joking and having fun.
And then we'll find a topic that is just a hell of a lot of fun to do.
Now we're all going to get together.
We're going to set up some kind of a, at some point, We're going to set up some seminars for people to come in, and all of us get face-to-face and do that.
But right now, we're just enjoying every Tuesday getting together for a couple hours and talking.
We're behind the scenes constantly.
The thing with Scott is we have this thing called Body Language Membership, and Body Language Membership is an outcrop of BodyLanguageTactics.com, and we created kind of a community.
Where we have people in there who can bring up any topic, safely discuss it, and they're reasonable to each other, unlike most chat rooms and that kind of thing.
So they talk about a topic, they bring it up, we'll go in and comment.
If they want us to, if they don't, we'll let them talk about it.
We bring in people to interview.
For example, I got a great counterintelligence agent, 35 years in the business coming in this week for us to talk to.
We do book reviews where we talk to the author about the book, have them tell us what they're thinking when they're writing the book.
So when you're reading it, you hear their voice instead of ours.
And it's just been fun.
We just get in there and do that.
And we have training classes.
We have a place called the Interrogation Academy.
We have the interrogation rooms where we talk to people.
The Academy is where we give lots of classes on body language and behavior and questioning, those kinds of things.
Greg, I don't want to push or invade.
The loss of your son, what makes going to the day job...
The easier way to cope with that loss?
Well, I was doing a fair amount of TV back then.
Matter of fact, Court TV, Vinnie Politan and those guys, I used to go down.
They're in Atlanta.
They belong to Turner.
And they were broadcast in those days.
And I did a fair amount of that work.
And I did headline news and CNN.
Although I doubt CNN would ever call me back these days.
In those days, I did a fair amount of CNN.
And I just was not sure I was stable enough.
To be in front of a camera, to do those kinds of things.
And I just thought, plus, I just needed some curing.
And I will tell you that I think work is good for the soul.
It just clears your head.
You bury your head down and you work, work, work, work, work.
And it got me through some of the toughest times of my life, I will say that.
Now, you know, you mentioned earlier people getting...
Some knowledge and thinking they're experts.
This might be the good segue into something we had been teasing from the beginning of this show.
I did not know that this is going to be your next episode on the Behavior Panel, so it might be a great cross-promo.
But you watched Alec Baldwin, his roadside interview.
I'm going to bring it up, and then I guess I'll either play the entire thing or in two separate bits.
I'm not sure I'm tech-savvy enough to stop it every time you have an observation.
Just let it play, and I'll give you some high-level observations.
Because the approach we took, this is our set.
We're doing two videos this week.
First is Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos.
Oh, yeah.
And that one is a hoot.
That one is a hoot.
Yeah, it could be.
And, you know, I thought she was just boring to watch until you really start paying attention.
And you're like, wow, there's something here.
But then we did our second one's kind of a short on Alec Baldwin and Hilaria.
Hilaria.
What is her name?
It's not Malaria.
I don't know how to pronounce it.
I'm not that worldly.
That was just a funny joke.
Now, I'm going to share screen.
Let's see if I can do this.
I'm going to go to Chrome tab and bring up my Twitter feed.
Okay, share.
I think we should all see it, but I don't see you guys anymore.
Can I still hear you?
You may have to share sound.
I don't know.
Let's see this.
Tell me if you hear this.
I'm not going to make any comments because it's an ongoing investigation.
I've been ordered by the Sheriff's Department in Santa Fe.
I can't answer any questions.
We're seeing a lot of illustrators there, right?
Pretty well timed.
It's almost like in between, isn't it?
It's almost like stop and in it.
You know what I mean?
It's a regulator.
So the first thing you see when he steps out of the vehicle, when he steps out of the vehicle, the first thing you see is a little bit of, okay, let's go.
He stands up.
It's almost like he's calling you out.
And he has a reputation for being a little rough with these guys.
He's been in trouble a couple of times over that.
And he steps out.
And one of the things you'll notice here he does, and I'm not going to give you everything, but one of the things you'll notice he does is he squares off.
And for men, any man that you know, stand in front of him and stand square off.
You'll eventually find a reason to go to obliques, because male nature, that's a challenge, to stand square onto each other.
And I love it, because I'll go into a corporation and talk to people, and I'll stand square with them and watch them turn.
Then I'll turn and square off with them and watch them turn again.
It's funny to watch.
It's the ape.
Now, some people say, like, once upon a time, being a hack expert, I did it as sort of a joke, but analyzed...
Kevin Spacey's Christmas special thing where he was doing some performance after the whole scandal.
But when you're looking at an actor, the question is, does it become harder to analyze the behavior of an actor?
Yeah, and I was about to say, what you're seeing here...
Now, do I believe...
I'll back up here in a second and tell you what I think is going on overall.
But if you watch...
This could be him as a lawyer on any show he's doing.
He's delivering the message.
He's doing all that.
Does that mean that he's not feeling it too?
No, it doesn't.
Because I assume that most actors go from a feeling they're having to delivering that.
They're not mimicking.
If they're mimicking, it makes it pretty hard to get it right because they don't know what the body language is either.
They're doing something they're trying to feel and go through the process.
But if you watch him, he does all of that.
He's punctuating at the right times.
To your point, Barnes, he's doing the...
Stop, stop, stop tamping things down.
He's holding his phone, which is kind of odd.
And then you see he's hitting all of the comments at the right time for it to be what he's thinking.
What I think is happening, what I'm thinking is happening, is he's driving along.
These guys are following him.
And it doesn't matter if you're Alec Baldwin or Greg Hartley or Robert Barnes or Viva.
If your wife is upset, your fight or flight is kicked in.
It doesn't matter who you are.
It doesn't matter who you are.
My wife would only be upset if I pulled over to get out of the car.
We would be driving and not stopping for anything.
Okay, I'm going to keep going here.
My impression was performance through and through.
Oh yeah, I was going to say one addendum.
You notice the way he's actually holding his phone is almost how you're describing a protective barrier.
Barrier, yep.
You know what I mean?
Well, and it's a powerful barrier because it's technology and he's copying you.
He's watching what you're doing.
The first time I saw this, didn't realize he was holding a damn phone.
I just thought he was holding his lapel like a performance in a, you know, a 1600s play.
But then I realized.
After the investigation in terms of a woman dying, she was my friend.
She was my friend.
The day I arrived in Santa Fe to start shooting, I took her to dinner with Joel, the director.
I believe that.
I believe that.
I believe that's him just saying this I feel.
Because he's such a performer, the problem for him is this sounds like a performance, even though it's probably not.
That's right.
She was my friend.
She was my friend.
Pacing and...
It sounds like he's on stage.
He sounds like he's on one of those Broadway stages.
And the problem is...
Sorry, go for it.
The problem is what you just said earlier about going to a trial.
It's what the audience perceives.
And if they've always seen you as an actor and they always think of you as in, then you're in trouble.
This is the kind of thing, if I were him, I'm no lawyer, but if I were him, I would shut up and not get in front of cameras at all because this is going to come back to haunt you.
It's just going to come back to haunt you.
Well, I think it might be the next interaction with his own wife, Greg, and you've got to let us know.
I love this one.
Very, very, excuse me.
We were very, very...
I'll tell you what, my ex, my head would have been rolling on that thing right there if I'd done that routine.
I would have been, neato, bye-bye, Barnsie.
You know what I see there?
I see, don't upstage me, bitch.
Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly right.
I'm delivering.
And you're upstaging me.
That's what I saw right there.
Excuse me.
Now, I also think that there's probably something going on in the car.
You know, the kids are crying.
There are people following them.
There's some escalation going on in the car.
There's a bunch of...
Just do this.
You know, you can see they're animated with each other.
And as he goes through this, without going through the whole video, you'll see again, he cuts her off again and says, let me talk.
Let me talk.
I think there's probably been a little bit of this.
If I was the prosecutor, this would make me more curious about whether there's a backstory with the woman on set.
Just because he starts talking about the woman on set, and all of a sudden the wife starts to intervene, and it's like, hmm, maybe there was something else going on there.
If you wanted a mystery theater version of this shooting, this was Columbo or show or something, there was the timing of when she comes up to him in direct response to him saying, About how he was so friendly with her.
I was just curious.
Robert, now that people are thinking hashtag confession through projection and they're going to be asking some questions in the chat.
This is a Warshak test to some extent.
The broader question is your success in life has to do with your accuracy over an extended period of time.
Which I guess is going to play into it.
Like, if you're wrong more often than you're right, you won't be successful.
But if you're right more often than you're wrong, success leaves clues.
I'll play this out, and then you'll give us the overall effect.
And then this horrible event happened.
Now, I've been told multiple times, don't make any comments about the ongoing investigation.
And I can't.
I can't.
I can't.
What are the questions you have other than that?
You met with the...
Stop it real quick.
What do you think about him putting his illustrator in his pocket?
Yeah, I think he's just that he's keenly aware of where he's at and who he is.
He's always holding court.
You know, I mean, that's the thing about these guys is they're always holding court.
You can't get away from cameras.
That's why I know there's no such thing as Bigfoot, right?
Because this guy can't get away from a camera and we don't have a credible picture of a Bigfoot.
There are 320 million cameras in the U.S., and we don't have a credible picture of a Bigfoot, but Alec Baldwin can't hide in Vermont.
That's the problem with these guys and their lives.
We did a Dr. Phil episode recently, and Scott and I are walking with him, and you can't help.
Cameras are coming out of everywhere.
You go to dinner with him, and there's cameras everywhere.
It's just part of it.
So I think they get good at holding court, especially when you're him to start with.
He's been in front of cameras enough times over other problems.
And now this is a...
This is the story.
I mean, this will be the story for a while.
And then he has to go into his anti-gun thing.
If you're spending this much time waiting for us, you should know her name.
This is what bothered me.
I don't know if I'm projecting and I don't know if it's accurate.
What seems to be his attempt to shame the reporter for not remembering her name as a total method of dealing and pushing away the responsibility to make someone else feel guilty, responsible for it, for not remembering her name.
To sort of get past what he just did.
I don't know if I'm reading more into it than there is.
It's clearly chaff and redirect.
I mean, what I call chaff and redirect is when you spew out a lot of garbage and then I pick up one item and change directions.
Think of an aircraft dropping chaff out of the back.
Anything that drops in a missile will chase.
Now you don't have to worry about the missile.
Anytime you get a chance to redirect, most resistance to interrogation, most chances to avoid being interrogated and giving up information is based on the ability to redirect somebody to a new topic.
This is an opportunity.
There was a reporter who was doing a big piece on me and some other people.
It complimented me on my redirect skills.
Any time she went to certain places, it was just, hey, what about this?
Oh, that was an interesting piece you wrote the other day.
It's a very useful technique and tactic to avoid questions you don't want to avoid.
Particularly if you can either...
Now, David chose the guilt-tripping way.
I've found the most effective way is to find something complimentary about the person that's an interesting subject that they want to talk about.
Quickly redirect there, and they're happy to go there with you.
Yeah, the other thing I would say is I think there's some fight or flight going on here, and he's good at masking it better than she is.
And you'll see later in this video, she grimaces, she's angry, her chin is up, the sides of her mouth are drawn, she exposes her lower teeth.
That's all real, unless she's a hell of an actor.
She's unable to be contained.
Now, what do you think about this still right here?
Baldwin looks so contemptuous.
Is that it?
Oh, that is.
That's absolutely contempt.
Yeah, he's looking, oh, poor baby.
You know, you see it.
Yeah, exactly.
And, you know, he's masterful with the use of his face.
All those wrinkles and all those lines come from using his face.
Yeah, exactly.
They communicate so wildly with their faces.
It's just off the charts.
Yep.
Here, I'll play this one out.
Melina Hutchins.
I met with her husband, Matthew, and her son.
Yeah, that's right.
And how did that meeting go?
I wouldn't know how to characterize it.
They're mortified.
You know what?
No details.
I'm going to answer.
I appreciate that he was probably very upset.
The guy is overwhelmed with grief.
There are incidental accidents on film sets from time to time, but nothing like this.
This is a one in a trillion episode.
He's holding court.
He's not worried about traffic.
He is in shock.
He has a nine-year-old son.
And I don't think he moves his hand with that phone at all.
It's pure still.
It's like frozen there in place.
I just have this feeling, I'm telling you, that they just got to a point, they're like, okay, pull over, I'm done with this.
I'm frustrated.
She's enraged and has triggered it.
They're going at it, is my guess.
I just...
It's my own projection.
I look at this guy's face.
The bag's under his eyes.
He hasn't slept in days because of what he did.
People don't want to give him any mercy because he might not deserve any.
But it's still a human.
It's still an organism.
The organism is...
The wifey caught him in something.
And he took care of the problem directly.
You're starting a conspiracy.
What we should do is...
Like a bad lip reading, what we should do is open our own bad body language.
Yeah.
There could definitely be a market for that.
So we won't go into any more detail than that.
When does your episode on this breakdown draw?
I think we're doing it later this week.
We have tomorrow is Theranos, and we'll probably drop one later in the week.
And that's insider information.
I don't know if the guys even know I'm telling you.
Well, now at least 5,000 people know.
And I didn't see any chat, by the way, for the last five minutes.
So my apologies for not bringing anything up.
We successfully shared a screen without having a problem with YouTube.
So I've broken one barrier.
It was better than the disastrous of those boomer lawyers in the Rittenhouse trial.
They can't stop and they're like, can we go back three?
Oh, no, 10, no, 20. I mean, it's embarrassing.
But I think that that was...
Fake buffoonery by Binger.
Every time I screw up, I see the word militia on the screen.
It was controlled mayhem coming from the prosecution.
To their credit, they did it brilliantly.
They managed to get...
There were super chats included.
For those who didn't see it, they ran video footage of social media that should have been edited and excised.
And they ran it as it actually ran originally, which had Super Chats included in it.
And so what it showed is after the shots are heard, it's a bunch of people saying very nasty things, and they're associating Kyle with those super chats.
People saying, yeah, way to take out the leftist trash.
You know, you asked for it.
You wanted to know, you know, you wanted to play the game.
I mean, things like that, along with militia, racist, white supremacist, all this other stuff, massive amounts of hearsay that never should have been admitted, ever.
I mean, it was just, and, you know, to Viva's point, He basically, Binger, played the game of his technological ineptitude to keep accidentally freezing the screen with the militia association with Kyle.
Stuff like that.
Mark Richards was the guy who asked me when I said, hey, we have a database that has AI that's really good.
And he said, what's AI?
And I was like, oh my word.
No, Robert, apparently some people said whenever he paused the video, the title came up automatically.
It was even worse, Greg, it's even worse than the Super Chat coming up.
It was read in a robotic sort of TikTok AI voice.
And it was a soft woman's voice.
Way to take out the trash.
That was an example.
But whenever the Super Chat, it was someone giving a tip to this live stream on Facebook or wherever, and it was a robotic computer-generated voice in a soft voice reading the most, you know, internet sass, but someone just got killed.
And he couldn't edit it out.
And if he were going to do that, it would take him time to go...
What's the word when you excise certain sections?
As if that shouldn't have been done already before it got admitted as evidence or accepted as evidence.
Chicanery is afoot, Robert.
I don't think anyone is going to ever doubt you in terms of the assessment past, present, and future.
Now, what was the first time you got involved in any kind of trial work?
I've not done as much as some of the other guys.
I did one around it, and it was around deposition.
Was it like witness prep, or was it breaking it down?
The first one I ever did was I went in, and I was working for a private investigator under their license in California, and the person actually allowed me, the attorney actually allowed me in the room without asking who I was.
They said, here's who I am, and I said, who are you?
I said, I'm Greg.
That was it.
And I just sat there and took notes and handed the notes over to the person in charge of the deposition.
So you can imagine where that went.
Oh, yes, absolutely.
That's a fun one.
We might have a trial still upcoming that might have a famous name that might be in trial in New York.
I'll look forward to that.
That could be fun.
And there's a lot of baseline material for that gentleman.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's a good thing is famous people have a lot of baseline because they forget sometimes that they're in front of a camera.
Greg, a question I'm pretty sure everyone...
First of all, before we leave, remind me I have to read some Super Chats that I screenshotted because they're good questions.
One question.
There are four expert gentlemen.
The fact that you're men doesn't matter.
You have four experts sharing a screen.
How do you manage the dynamic, the egos, the expectations, the interplay among all of you in order to maintain a functional relationship where you don't get into the classic Oasis-type band spats?
You know, I think so far it has not been a lot of that.
We just, we respect each other's angle.
It helps that we come from four very different angles.
You know, my interrogator time and your persona comes across as whatever it comes across as.
And we're kind of like Beatles or whatever you want to pick.
Each one of them had their own persona.
Scott says like building a band and, you know, branding is part of that.
But so Chase is fresh out of the military.
When I felt old, the first time I called Chase and said, hey, great job, man.
Love the studies.
Love all that.
And he said, you don't know how much that means to me.
I've been reading your book since I was in my 20s.
Nothing to make me feel bad there.
But so, you know, Chase brings this energy in this.
He has all the mind control stuff he's interested in as well.
But he brings all this energy straight from the military.
He's only been out a couple of years.
Scott, having been in the music industry, and, you know, Scott's Grammy nominated many times over.
He's been in the music industry and worked in that space.
Me coming from corporate, Mark coming from entertainment and politics.
We each bring something the other doesn't and we see things.
I'm always amazed.
Mark's one of my favorites to listen to because he brings something out of left field that I would never see.
I'm like, yeah, no, I don't believe that.
This guy's this.
He's like, well, here's why.
So I think if you have a good question, I don't think we have a lot of that to fight with.
And if you've spent your life in the military, we're good at figuring stuff out.
In my old days in the military, it would have been the parking lot and figured out there if it got to that.
Here, we just say, hey man, what's your problem?
If we have a problem.
So far, we've just been a good team.
I equate it to a bunch of 12-year-old boys before you find girls sitting around nerding on stuff.
So, any particularly favorite films or TV series or things like that?
You know, I'm not a big fiction fan.
I just don't.
I mean, I watch it.
I've only since started doing this show watched a lot of true crime, unfortunately, because I really hate it.
But I like space stuff, that kind of thing.
Something that takes your mind off the rest of the stuff.
I have watched Criminal Minds.
I've watched Mindhunter.
Pretty good show.
I think that's done well in the way that they approach it.
Those kinds of shows do interest me.
And I watch a lot of documentaries and those kinds of things to see what's going on in the world.
And you spend more time doing that.
I always say my Saturday mornings or Sunday mornings are murder and coffee because I'm the guy who finds the videos.
So it's always murder, abductions, liars.
I usually say murderers, politicians, and other liars.
What do you do for fun in general?
Yes, I'm a horse guy.
I've got a bunch of horses.
I live on 35 acres and got a bunch of horses.
I always say if I didn't have horses, I'd have money and my body would be in better shape.
They're expensive and destructive to lightweight human bodies that we have.
I have that.
I'm a car guy.
I like cars.
I got an older car and a fast car.
I like things like that.
Shoot a little.
That kind of thing.
I do a little bit of that kind of stuff.
What are the cars?
I got a 58 Impala.
And yeah, it's my favorite.
It took me years to get it.
And then I've got a C7 Z06 Corvette fun car for speed.
Those are fun cars.
Greg, I got to ask you a question that got me into trouble with one of my equestrian clients.
Have you ever eaten horse or is the idea of eating a horse?
No, I've eaten them.
Yeah, I was in Finland and it was on the menu and I thought, what the hell, I'll try it.
I didn't kill it.
You know, it's just one of those things.
And I'm always keenly aware that we have chosen which animals are sacrosanct, which ones we can eat.
And there's not a dime's worth of difference.
The reason that horses are not eaten is not primarily because they're noble and brilliant and can learn and they're great servants.
It's because they're poor converters of food.
Most of what you feed them goes out the rear.
Whereas a cow converts food much more effectively is the reason they never became livestock.
I mean, there are places that use them as livestock.
I thought it would be, if I had to venture another guess, that they would be worth more alive as working animals than dead as feeding animals.
Cows, what do you do with them?
Milk or meat?
Cows can work.
I mean, people use them, oxen, and that kind of thing for decades, for generations.
You know, it's a horse.
Of all the animals that you want in your life and you want to fall in love with a horse, it's a bad choice because they're one of the most fragile creatures on earth.
Their intestines and their digestive systems are just horrible.
And they're wonderful creatures.
Love them.
They're among my favorite things on earth.
But they are some of the most delicate things on earth.
A stomach ache will kill a horse because they have a bad...
Their digestive system is poorly designed.
They ferment in the wrong side of their gut, so they build a lot of fluid and a colic can kill a horse.
Yeah, someone told me if a horse eats meat by accident, it's a life-threatening, like if you feed a horse a burger at a fair or whatever, you can kill it.
I think maybe.
Maybe.
It's any digestive change.
Remember, a horse is designed to walk over grand, long periods of time, and their diet changes as they walk.
If you abruptly change a horse's diet, like give them too much food, they'll colic, and they'll get an impaction, and they'll lie down and roll over, and there's lots of fluid in their intestines, and they twist and rupture, and you lose your horse.
And it's a painful way for them to go.
Where did the affection for horses start?
First wife.
I'd never ridden.
Met my first wife.
She had horses.
And she's gone.
The horses are here.
That's a country music song right there.
It is.
That's what I told Pyle and I were talking.
I said, I got my own lyrics for country songs.
You got to throw in the Impala somewhere in there.
And then you definitely have...
Yeah, you got it.
Okay, so the John Beck said, your opinion on the book On Killing by Colonel Grossman.
Have you read it?
I haven't.
And it's on my list, and I've just been...
I'm lazy about reading these days, but yes.
Unfortunately, there is an infinite amount of knowledge out there to acquire, so you have to pick what you can get.
That's right.
Jim P. says, if most people knew how to read body language, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Sorry, I got to that one.
Greg, thanks for your service in Desert Storm.
Your thoughts on body language whilst playing poker?
Okay, we got that one.
That was upstate New York writer.
There was one that I had to get to that I said I would.
Anglo1967 says, something that surprised you when learning of behavior, something unexpected.
Love your channel.
Well, thanks, first of all, for watching the channel.
You know, I think it's been too long, I guess, when I'm thinking about things that surprised me.
I think I was actually surprised at how easy it is to pick up on things from people in the beginning.
And the eye movement thing that people either will scoff at or...
Realize that it works.
That really surprised me when I first learned that because you watch people and you see their eyes going to pattern when they're trying to recall something or making something up or calculating.
That probably was astonishing for me in the beginning.
What do you think about those personality quizzes that are popular online and some other places?
Things like, you know, you go into the woods, you discover a cup, you find water, you run into a bear, beach.
Any utility to those?
What's your general sentiment on that?
I don't see any in there because I think just whatever it is that a person's looking for, they're going to follow whatever the pattern is.
I think most people are intuitive enough to figure out the right path through things.
It's just like...
Any sorting tool, when you look at things like Myers-Briggs or any of those, they're good only in, in my opinion, only in that they give you a way to put people in a framework that you can discuss.
I have my own version in my business book about how people choose to help, whether they're forced to help, whether they want to force you to help, whether they help voluntarily, that kind of thing.
And it's just a sorting tool to put in business a way to figure out whether your team's going to pitch in or you're going to have to force them to do things or that kind of stuff.
And those sorting tools give us a way to talk.
That's all.
Those quizzes you're talking about, I'm not a big fan.
Well, the ones that always get me are the IQ test.
And I spend 20 minutes doing the IQ test.
And then I have to give my email and a credit card number to get the results.
They get me every time.
I'm joking.
One of the dumbest people I ever met was a woman who came up to me at a Christmas party.
And she was a little bit inebriated.
And she was telling me her IQ.
And it was clearly not her IQ.
I mean, clearly.
And I asked her where she learned that.
And she told me on the internet.
I said, how much did you pay for that?
She told me some crazy number.
I'm sure there are some of those.
Well, I have long been obsessed with trying to get my IQ level as if it matters for anything.
But what do you know about them?
Because it's not just a test.
It requires an analysis from someone who's trained because it's not the responses alone that determine IQ, but rather how they fit into a broader interpretation of the reason for which you give certain answers.
I don't know enough about how they actually are structured.
I do know it has to do with how rapidly you solve the problem, how you tie spatial cognition and all that kind of thing.
And what I always think of IQ, there are lots of ways to be smart or brilliant, and not all of them have to do with words.
Not all of them at all.
My dad was one of the smartest guys I've ever met.
He was not educated at all, but he could figure any mechanical thing in the world out.
I always said if he had education, he could have been anything in the world.
He could fix anything that worked, any machine, and you run into other people who intuitively can do things that it's just the way their brain works.
So I don't think IQ, for me, I've never put too much faith in that.
It has a lot to do with how we work and function in our culture and that kind of thing.
So a person who came from, for example, the Middle East, who has a whole lot of embedded things from their culture might miss something in nuance in an IQ test.
You'd miss a whole lot of who that person is.
Yeah, I've always been an extreme skeptic of IQ for many reasons, just because largely it measures some...
The idea that you can measure intelligence by some test, I've been inherently skeptical of, but also just that there's so many different kinds of intelligence.
I mean, there's emotional intelligence, there's social intelligence, there's abstract intelligence.
Like, if you want me to write a legal brief for you, I'm very good at that.
If you want me to fix your car...
Good luck with that.
There's tons of things I'm utterly clueless and inept at.
Probably the best thing I have is my skill set at knowing what I'm very bad at.
I used to explain this when I was a little kid.
I was like eight, and there'd be some chore.
I'm like, I'm not good at this.
I can't do this.
And my older siblings would be like...
Bobby's lying.
He's just...
So they let me do it.
And they come back and they say, never do that again.
That shows intelligence, Robert.
To get out of something you don't want to do, do it badly the first time.
No one ever asks you to do it again.
There you go.
There you go.
Greg, if you're comfortable in the sense that if you have the basis to answer the question, it's a good one.
Talix001, the meme master on vivabarneslaw.locals.com.
He says, with this talk of white people do X or Y. Does he, do you think the rise of people who identify as trans is somehow a learned or attention-seeking behavior?
You know, I really don't know.
What I will tell you is this.
I'm digging right now into everything I can find to understand that whole thing because, you know, I grew up in a very different world, you know.
I do know that hormones affect the brain.
And who knows, maybe there's a big influx of people's brains functioning differently because of something in our environment or something they're eating or taking or influenced from other people.
I try really hard not to jump to a conclusion.
I have my own instinctive feeling, but my instinctive feeling would be projecting too.
So I try to be cautious.
There's a book I picked up.
You asked what I was reading.
I picked up a book that I haven't really started yet called Brain Gender.
And I don't know what their political...
I just want to read it and get some data and find where they found their studies and go run the studies down and look and see.
But, you know, for example, I do know that if you take away testosterone from people, things happen.
And if you put enough physical pressure, psychological pressure on somebody, testosterone levels drop.
So I do know that affects behavior.
For example, when we had these guys in and we swabbed inside their mouth and checked testosterone early in the game, this didn't make them think they were women, but it did make them behave very differently.
These are not Average people.
And by day three, they would do anything we told them.
I could tell them to slap the guy standing next to them and they would do it.
So hormones play a huge part in who we are and how we perceive self.
So it'll be interesting for me to, when I get done with this book, I come back and tell you what I think after I read 10 studies.
How's that?
Sounds good.
Now, here's another one.
Greg, any more insight on Don Wells?
YouTube are so brutal toward them in the comments.
For those who don't know, that's me.
I actually don't know the situation.
Who's Don Wells and what's going on?
Yeah, so Don Wells is the father of a missing five-year-old girl from rural Tennessee, from up in Kingsport area, and his wife is Candace.
We interviewed both of them.
Well, we interviewed one of them.
The other one came, and then we'll leave it at that.
But Don, I've spoken to at length.
We interviewed him, and people said, well, you were not hard on him.
You didn't interrogate him.
The interview is on our channel, on thebehaviorpanel.com.
You can go watch an hour and 20-minute interview with a guy.
People are accusing of doing something to his child.
His child's been missing now since June.
And we were pretty hard with our questions.
And we were pretty direct.
You have to do as much as you can.
So I asked him, did you hurt Summer?
Did you do this?
Did you do that?
Very direct questions.
And we hit four different denials to look and compare how they're working.
For example, I pushed him as hard as you can in a room.
And then I had another opportunity to talk to him.
And he just got arrested for DUI.
A couple of days ago, so I think he's back in jail because he violated a probation.
And at the end of the day, do I think he killed his little girl or had anything to do with it?
I don't.
I mean, just based on my exposure to him.
And I've been across the table from him.
I've sat close enough to put my hand on him when I'm talking to him.
Do I think he's a saint or a perfect guy?
No, he's got a whole lot of shit in his background.
He's got drug convictions.
He's got a whole bunch of other stuff.
He's got domestic abuse.
Does that mean...
That he did something to his daughter.
Doesn't.
There's another problem.
It's really easy to take the guy who's already done a lot of wrong things and assign every wrong thing to him.
I mean, we just watched Alec Baldwin, right?
We see him stand square and you immediately jump to a couple of things.
I don't think he did anything with his daughter.
And, you know, we'll go from there over the next little while and we'll figure out what actually happens.
Sorry, go ahead, Robert.
I mean, so you guys have been starting to out a lot of cases that people had, some they paid attention, some they hadn't, you know, basically led to arrest of different people.
You guys were on Dr. Phil that ultimately led to the arrest of that guy.
What has that been like to be like real life CSI?
It's funny.
I wouldn't call it CSI.
We're pretty good BS meters.
That's what I would call us.
And for example, the guy we did on Dr. Phil last October, it just was clear when you watched him that he was hedging and doing all kinds of twists and turns.
And we were in the green room with one of his victims.
He was sexually assaulting people, putting his genitals on people, that kind of thing, when he was massaging them.
And it was clear he was lying to us.
So we just pushed, pushed, pushed.
And yeah, he's in jail.
He's in jail in Nashville.
We said Cleo Smith did not, her parents did not do anything with her.
Sure enough, she showed up.
Now we have our opinion about Don Wells.
We actually, Stephen Pankey, who's on trial in Idaho right now or in Greeley, Colorado right now for the death of a little girl 30 plus years ago named Janelle Matthews.
He actually interviewed in front of a camera for an hour and a half.
We did an analysis of it and he just went on the witness stand.
He just was doing testimony yesterday.
Oops.
And he's bleeding all over the place.
So it's been interesting because we're involved in day-to-day cases.
And some of these are active.
So you've got to be careful, you know, how far you push people and that kind of thing.
But when somebody calls you and says, hey, we're willing to come and talk to you, we're all for it.
If we can clear your name or point you in the right direction and you're not lying to us, we're quite happy to that.
Greg, just one question because someone asked twice.
A question for Mr. Hartley.
Right after Sear school for about 36 hours, all background conversations in public settings had Russian accents.
Why is that?
Do you know what that question is?
I think it's patterning.
I think it's brain patterning because if you went through Sear, we all had really crappy accents.
But once you get used to a certain thing, I remember my Sear days when I was actually in the box, they were playing this radio broadcast in the background in Spanish.
And I kept thinking it was mixing between Spanish and English because my brain was finding patterns and starting to put things together.
You know, you have sensory memory and a great example of it.
If you sit and stare at a ceiling fan for 30 seconds and close your eyes, you'll still see the ceiling fan, the outline.
You have sensory memory and that sensory memory is temporary.
So all that just gets stuck there.
It's just like any other thing.
If you travel for the first time and you go outside the US, you go to UK, when you first come back, everyone sounds a little different to you because it's sensory memory.
That's all I think it is.
I thought you guys' breakdown of JonBenet Ramsey's brother was fantastic, because I went in with just loosely skepticism of the brother, and then when he broke down the interview, I was like, okay, this is someone that once you understand the baseline, you understand that he is highly, highly unlikely to be a legitimate suspect.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I think there's the problem.
Again, we're projecting because he's odd, and we're thinking, okay, odd people do these kinds of things, when in fact, most of the people who do the kinds of things we're talking about, you wouldn't pick out as odd.
They're psychopaths and are doing something.
They fit right in.
That's part of the problem.
Yeah, they're, well, I won't name any politicians, but I had, well, I guess I can't.
There was one client many years ago that reminded me of that, but I withdrew from the representation, thank God.
But when you get those people that are like five different personalities and the one you look forward to the most is the sociopath, you've got an unfortunate client.
For sure.
Have you ever had a situation, what was your favorite interview experience or maybe the most impactful interview experience?
I one time interviewed a woman for 14 hours before she started to talk.
Wow.
14 hours straight?
Yeah.
How do you do pee breaths, just like casually a task?
Well, you don't because you're occupied.
You're just so focused and so occupied.
You're going in, going in.
And remember, what we're doing, I always say, is we're trying to appear to be smooth like a swan.
But if you look under the water, you see a swan's feet are paddling like hell.
We're doing that whole thing, so your mind is so occupied.
Because I'm trying to attack you with a psychological ploy, and when it doesn't work, I have to reset my ploy and think two steps ahead, and you're doing the same thing, unless I get you to a point.
The only reason that anyone in an interrogation room should ever scream or yell is to get your amygdala to kick in so your thinking brain stops, because it's useless.
You don't want people to tell you what you want to hear.
You want them to tell you the truth.
Otherwise, you're going to hurt somebody down the road that you wouldn't want to hurt.
So when you're doing that kind of thing and you're pushing on somebody, you're so focused, time just disappears.
Some practical advice for people out there.
Let's say people are son and daughter, somebody's in a relationship, grandson, whatever the dynamics are, and you want to take a look out to see if they might have any red flags with the date.
What are some of the little things that you would recommend people to look for?
Yeah, I'll just give you the one that I always say to people.
If you are talking to someone and you feel really good in their presence, and then when they leave, you go, why do I like that person?
You're being manipulated.
It's the best indicator, and we instinctively can feel that.
So if you can't understand why you like the person when they're away from you, but you love them when they're close to you, be careful.
I like to think people think that way about me now.
Renal Ryan says, Hey guys, I just wanted to thank Greg and crew.
I'm on the autism spectrum.
I've learned a lot about how to read people's faces and emotions.
Also, do you guys read each other during recording?
Well, first of all, thank you.
Thank you for watching us and I'm glad we're able to help.
I have a friend who has somebody on the spectrum and has said the same thing to me.
I'm very pleased that we can do something of value.
And yes, we occasionally will do things to each other.
I won't tell you who, but one of the guys didn't believe in eye movement and I was talking to him and I said, hey, where were you this weekend?
He told me and I said, who was with you?
Boom, boom, boom.
And we're recording.
So when it was over, I said, now go back and watch your eyes and I'll show you what your accessing cues look like.
And he was like...
I thought you cared about my life.
I said, I do, but I want you to see this works.
Now, I do know, for whatever the reason, I think it was Eric Hundley who told me, and I watched your interview with him, that you place a great deal of value on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
Yep.
It's at the core of everything I do.
Very simply, if you don't know Maslow, it's just a pyramid.
And you have to satisfy the first thing before you can move to the next.
And people tell you it's discredited.
It's because they don't understand what he's talking about.
And physiological is the first need.
When you need water, you need water.
When you need air, you need air.
When you need food, you need food, right?
That's physiological needs.
The second tier, once you get those satisfied, is then you go to safety needs.
And safety needs quite simply are, I need to be warm.
I need shelter.
I need that kind of thing.
Then once you get past settling those, only then can you start to get to belonging.
I need to have peers, friends, love, all of those things.
And after you satisfy that, then you start to build esteem.
So once I have a group, I can hang out with them.
I might be the weirdest guy in the group, but at least I'm part of the group and that's my esteem.
You know, I go that way.
But if I'm an outsider, I'm just the weird guy nobody knows.
I can't build esteem with them.
And then once you pass these esteem needs, then you get to self-actualization.
And all of this stuff, when these guys get all spun up because we're saying JonBenet Ramsey's brother didn't kill the kid and they've been saying for 20 years that he did.
Well, we're hitting their Maslow.
They've had esteem by proving it.
I know more about this case than you do.
The Don Wells case, we have just taken a lot of heat over because people who've never met this guy and don't know a thing about him and not sat near him know more about the case than we do, for sure.
And so there's their Maslow and their satisfying Maslow.
There are a lot of armchair detectives in the world who know a lot more about these cases than we do.
We're looking at a specific data pattern.
One of the things Chase mentioned that I thought was good, it reflects my old favorite quote from Elvis that he said he learned from his father when he was five, which his father told him, never judge a man until you walk a mile in his shoes.
And what Chase mentioned is the number one thing he had learned through his professional experience was to be very wary of judgment.
And particularly quick judgment.
And I've always been shocked as a lawyer, the ability and willingness of people to judge people they've never met, they don't know, to judge them in the harshest, most vicious terms.
Like one of the fascinating cues for defense lawyers is if the jury comes in at the verdict and they do not look at your client, it's a bad sign.
It's a guilty verdict.
But I've always found that fascinating because it's like an implicit acknowledgement of a little bit of shame or guilt on the jury.
If you really think this person's a terrible criminal, you should want almost to look at him and say, you have done wrong.
But they can't.
And I think in part it's this guilt about this rush to judgment that so many people have, it seems.
Any thoughts on that?
Well, I think the world we live in today is the most judgmental thing possible.
And I think in part, there's a whole lot of Dunning-Kruger going around, people who think they know everything that they don't know.
And I'm sure people tell you guys about law all the time, you know, with no idea what they're talking about.
But in the world we live in, when you can pick up a phone and be an expert on anything in five minutes, now it makes people even more judgmental.
And people are wired a certain way.
I'm always trying to understand why a person does something more than I'm wanting to.
Point and say, they did it, they're bad, and, and, and.
Because like I said, we're just layer after layer after layer.
In all those layers, drug use, DUI, there might not be anything in there for child abuse.
So you've got to look for all those layers and try to understand why that person got to the point they are.
I think if you're intellectually curious, you make less judgment than if you're just the person who is, you're sure you're right all the time.
And that sure you're right usually extends to things other than people too.
The first level of Maslow's hierarchy, first of all, the pyramid itself, is it layered?
It's layered.
The second layer does not have two aspects to it.
It's a single layer.
Is the first one physiological or is there anything conscious about it?
Is the first one as simple as not die?
Do not die.
It's pretty much that.
It's what do you need to survive?
It's food, it's water.
Because you're a human being and you've got this complex knot of a brain up there, of course, there's psychological parts to it, too.
You know, starvation affects people for the rest of their time.
If a person starved for days or weeks or months, I mean, days, not so much.
But if you do without food for a long period of time, it does have an impact on your psyche.
It just does.
And I will always tell you, for example, my SEER school days, I lost 17 pounds in less than a week.
And when I came out, I was ravenously hungry.
And people will tell you they weren't, but it depends on the person.
And I've never since that day ever thought I'm going to put myself in a place where I'll starve.
And people are affected differently by experiences.
But that physiological need is just the animal.
It's going to try to keep you alive.
That's the key.
The psychological impact of it is a different story.
Any thoughts on the attachment theory of personality?
Is that something you've ever looked at?
No, I know a little bit about it, like people who have attachment disorders where they don't bond to family.
I'm just not, I'm not a psych and I'm not the expert on that.
I would leave it at that.
Now, Robert, someone here, Christopher Fisher is asking multiple times when I say that without judgment, is there a disinterested third party that can get Kyle info?
Now, I'm only reading this chat not to answer it now, just to segue that Robert is going to be on News with Booze with Eric Hundley and I believe Alison Morrow in T-10.
Where they will be discussing Rittenhouse specifically.
So I suspect they'll touch on that answer there and which will give us a good time to wind up here so that Robert can get there within due time.
Greg, okay, first of all, I'm going to pin your channel.
I'm going to pin all your info in the pinned comment to this so people can find you.
Where can they find you and what can they expect next from you?
Yeah, so you can find me at greghartley.com.
It's just a static page where you can find an email address and get through to me.
I don't have as much web presence.
I do the behavior panel.
I'm on news whenever people call me.
I think the next one will probably be Newsmax, and that'll make people come after me just because.
But I've done CNN.
I've done just about every network on earth.
It's just I'm not a fan anymore, so we'll see where I go next.
But any opportunity I get to hit news and critique.
People who would rule me, I love those.
So all of our rulers are fair game for me.
So any of you guys listening and want to call me onto your show, I'd love to critique our rulers.
Other than that, thebehaviorpanel.com or bodylanguagetactics.com.
Bodylanguagetactics.com is where we have the body language membership, where you can sign up and be there monthly and get lots of information from Scott and I. Or Body Language Tactics, which is a static course, microcourses, so you can learn to read body language more effectively.
Yeah, and I have all of Greg's books.
I'm also a member of BodyLanguageTactics.com.
Great information, constant education.
You guys are clearly, without a doubt, the best in the business.
It's too bad we couldn't have helped a certain gentleman in Kenosha, but can't control the world.
If there's a mistrial, we may get back into that case down the road.
We'll see.
Hope the good Lord leads it in the right direction, ultimately.
I think the kid's innocent.
But at a minimum, you know, they would have had the opportunity to have had the best jury selection team in American history, and, you know, a couple people decided to hijack it for themselves, unfortunately.
I'll tell you one thing, Robert.
Thus far, the judge and the prosecutor are better defense attorneys, or more active, because some of the evidence that the prosecutor's inducing does not seem inculpating, and the judge has been the most proactive defendant for Rittenhouse.
So hold on a second.
I was just about to ask you a question, Greg.
It was about...
Where to find you?
Darn it, I forgot.
We may one day, but Robert, we'll talk about doing exclusive, like, continuations of our stream.
Oh, yeah, I know.
We will be doing, we'll figure out what the schedule is for everybody, but we will be doing a breakdown of the O.J. Simpson case, do a crossover show with the body language panel and us.
That'd be fun.
Probably the number one thing people go crazy, you know, I have a lot of contrarian opinions, but the ones that always shock people the most.
For the last 20 years, even though I bet on it when I was a kid, is that I believe the OJ verdict was the correct verdict.
And people are always like, what?
And so that's always a fun case to do.
Also, Johnny Cochran, just for a matter of skill, you want to see what good trial lawyering looks like.
Go back and watch Johnny.
It was more than just, if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.
It was genius at multiple levels.
Jury selection, the opening statement, you know, with, hey, here's a red herring here, here's a red herring here, and here's a red herring over here, and if you don't like those, there's a fourth over here.
The cross-examination, managed to manage egos well.
You know, he kept F. Lee Bailey, you know, restrained, which was good.
Bailey could be good when he was good, but I think that'll be a fun crossover show, and everybody can interrogate me as to my beliefs and why I believe what I believe.
Robert, if we can, that might be a good bait to get Dershowitz to participate in it, although that might hinder the discussion because he might not be able to discuss everything.
But I remembered, Greg, what I was going to ask you.
That would be fun.
To close this off, I don't want to ask you to adjudicate on Biden because I think there's other issues other than behavioral issues there.
But when you look at politicians at large, and Justin Trudeau in particular, are they in fact deceitful creatures by nature?
Do they learn deceit?
Or are they stealing their beliefs?
They're professional liars.
They have to keep 51% or at least some weird...
Geometry of that happy.
So they're going to say whatever it takes.
It's kind of like a little kid who's in trouble and who's going to say whatever it takes to get out of that trouble.
You just have to know I don't trust most politicians.
Anybody who would rule me, I don't trust.
And especially when they can't finish a sentence.
So I'll leave you at that.
All right.
Now with that said...
News with Booze on Eric Connolly's main channel.
Greg Hartley, all of your links, and I'm going to post some Amazon affiliate links to two of your books in particular, which I think are the widely recognized thing.
If you can only read two out of ten, those are the two.
Let's do this again, but this was fantastic.
Everyone in the chat, thank you very much for tuning in, all the comments.
Greg, Robert, stick around, we'll say our proper goodbyes.
Everyone else, see you Sunday, and you know where to find Robert right now for Kyle.