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July 7, 2021 - Viva & Barnes

01:58:41

Sidebar with Eliza Bleu - Viva & Barnes Sidebar

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Time	Text
	Second, early tonight, people.
	Good evening.
	How is everybody doing?
	I'm going to wait for the standard Fs in the chat.
	Here we go.
	Thank you very much.
	What02CV?
	Salty Army, Colorado.
	Let's roll, boys.
	Okay, let's go.
	Audio's an F, so we can start with this stream.
	This is another interesting stream, one that I never thought I would be doing.
	On a subject matter that...
	There are a few subject matters that are just...
	There are subject matters that people want to avoid psychologically, spiritually, and coverage-wise.
	Fair warning, I've demonetized this video straight off the bat.
	On the one hand, I'm not telling you this so that I can get virtue points.
	If you see an ad on it, it is strictly from YouTube's end and not from my own.
	This subject matter, I wholeheartedly recognize, is not subject matter that advertisers want to have anything to do with.
	Nor is it subject matter that some people might feel good about advertising on if they're going to cover it.
	The subject of human trafficking, which is a problem which I think it's been Hollywoodized, for lack of a better word, and we're going to get into this when we get into the discussion.
	It's a problem that is international.
	It's a problem that is well-known, but a problem that is, I won't say largely ignored, but has developed a new facet that I don't think...
	Anybody truly fully appreciates, or very few people truly fully appreciate, and I use myself as the measure of a reasonably rational person.
	I cover the lawsuits.
	I try to stay away from these types of lawsuits.
	They genuinely make me unhappy.
	But in doing the research for this interview and watching Eliza Bloom's other podcasts, she was on Michael Malice.
	It was a great discussion.
	I appreciate now that there's an aspect to this, a new facet to this.
	Old historical problem that has existed basically since the beginning of humankind that is unique to our day and age.
	And we're going to get into it.
	So Eliza Blue has a very interesting, unique story, which we're going to get into.
	And then we're going to get into the broader issues of the discussion of the problem and how it's been exacerbated by and almost...
	Dare I say promoted by social media.
	We discussed it briefly with Facebook and a couple of the lawsuits there, a couple of lawsuits against Twitter.
	It's a dark and awful subject matter, but it's not going to destroy any lighthearted humor that you will fundamentally always see on this channel and with our panel, with Robert and our guests.
	But I'm asking this not to govern or supervise the chat.
	Just out of respect and courtesy, both for the guest and for me and for Robert, be reasonable with the chat.
	I don't block anybody.
	People can be jerks if they want to be jerks, and I don't block them because that's just a badge of honor for anybody who wants to get blocked so they can say, I showed up to a stream and got blocked.
	I don't do it.
	Only things that we block systematically, overt threats and spamming.
	Spamming just because it's terrible and it ruins the discussion, but objective spamming.
	We've seen it before.
	Same comment over and over again.
	Don't do it, please.
	I'm going to be doing the super chat.
	I don't know if there's super chats on this when you demonetize it.
	I suspect there aren't, so we won't have that issue today.
	Standard disclaimers, though.
	No legal advice.
	So, with that said, everyone is in the house.
	I think we've given enough time for everyone to trickle in.
	No, Barnes' chair is empty, so I'm going to wait a few seconds for Barnes to get back to his chair, because although that chair, even without Barnes in it, is majestic in the...
	The upholstering on it is beautiful.
	So, ask Eliza to hook you up with Michael Malice.
	I don't know.
	I wouldn't need that.
	I mean, I'm sure we can have a discussion with Michael Malice any day of the week.
	It's a great podcast, and there's a bunch out there that you should watch to get a feel for this.
	You know what?
	I don't know.
	Maybe Robert went away for a few seconds.
	So, I'm going to bring Eliza in.
	We're going to get this started.
	He's in.
	He's in.
	Okay.
	We're going to do this properly.
	First is going to be...
	Eliza, and now Robert.
	And we're going to make sure everyone's audio is good and that there's no echo.
	How is everyone doing?
	Hello, Jonathan.
	Okay, excellent.
	Now, do we prefer this?
	Oh, Super Chat still works.
	Okay, so with that said then, sorry, I didn't know if Super Chat would work if it's a non-monetized video.
	I'm going to do my best to get to the Super Chats if there's a lot.
	There may not be a lot.
	If there's any sort of, not discourage, but Super Chat is not to be used to abuse.
	Legit questions we're going to get to because I know the crowd's going to have a lot.
	And there's going to be a lot, but I think we might get them out in the context of this discussion.
	So, without further ado, Eliza, first things first.
	It's a question I always ask myself.
	Is this your real first and last name?
	It is my real first name.
	It is not my real last name.
	Okay, now, Eliza, is it short for Elizabeth or is it just Eliza?
	Just Eliza.
	Yeah, it's just Eliza.
	I love my name so much.
	I'm so happy that my parents gave me that name.
	And is it Eliza or Elisa?
	Eliza, but folks that speak Spanish or Italian say Elisa, so I'm fine with it either way.
	I think it sounds beautiful when folks say Elisa, so I'm fine with that.
	Okay, now, everyone who watches these sidebars know that we go into the childhood, and the childhood is going to be relevant for everything that comes up in this, but before we go there, maybe some people are not going to know who you are.
	The elevator pitch, who you are, before we get into the childhood, to get into your past, to get into the present.
	Yeah, I just let folks know that I'm a survivor advocate for those affected by human trafficking.
	I'm also a survivor of human trafficking.
	And I sort of, I stepped forward to be a public survivor leader in April 2020, so not that long ago.
	Before then, I was very private about my advocacy and also about my story.
	So I really didn't ever want to be a public survivor leader.
	It was something that I fought tooth and nail partially because I was embarrassed and just traumatized and didn't really want to get into it.
	As a result of the COVID-19 lockdowns and the pandemic, I knew that those were extenuating circumstances, and I knew that folks would be more vulnerable and at risk.
	So I stepped forward in the Daily Wire.
	I reached out to a lot of publications just to get them to talk about human trafficking.
	And the Daily Wire said, yeah, we'd love to talk about human trafficking, and we'd love to share this information, but can we add your name and picture?
	And I was like, oh, not really, but yeah, let's just do it.
	And then it sort of set a new trajectory in my life.
	You know, while the rest of the world was sort of locked down and not really knowing what to do with themselves, I sort of dove into my advocacy, but more online.
	So it sort of took off, and it's been an amazing experience.
	So that's kind of the...
	And I think I'm best known for taking on Twitter for child sexual abuse material, human trafficking, and specifically Jack Dorsey.
	Okay, excellent.
	Now I'm going to bring this up.
	Because this is a question we're going to get to, because it's a question that I had in the back of my mind, and it deals with the definition of human trafficking for the purposes of discussion and advocacy.
	Having your picture stolen is not human trafficking.
	Changed my mind.
	We're going to get to it.
	I just wanted to bring it up now.
	That is a question we're going to get to.
	Not yet, because we've got to set up the history, the situation, and then we're going to get into the definitions of the terms and the actual discussion.
	Now, I know from having watched a bunch of podcasts and interviews, I don't know how many siblings you had, but you were homeschooled as a child.
	Yeah, I was homeschooled as a child.
	I have one sister.
	She's married.
	Unfortunately, she doesn't live here, but she is the mother of my two favorite people on the entire planet, my nephew and niece.
	And was that Southern Illinois?
	Yeah, we're from Illinois, but we grew up in Denver.
	So I sort of grew up a little bit in a couple different spots.
	And homeschooled all the way through?
	Yeah, they tried to...
	They tried to put us in public school.
	I went to public school for driver's ed and typing.
	And they tried a couple times to get us to do school, but it never sat well with me.
	I didn't seem to fit in, which I know everybody probably feels that way.
	But I feel really fortunate that I was homeschooled because my parents focused on things that...
	Maybe my sister and I would be better at and didn't necessarily focus on other things.
	So sometimes I wish I was better at spelling, you know, reading, writing, things like that, or math even.
	But I'm really good in other ways.
	And so they really honed in those.
	Pretty cool.
	My sister and I are both really creative.
	So they really made sure to focus on those things.
	Pretty cool.
	If your parents are homeschooling you, do they both work or does one of them not work?
	And if so, like, what did both or do both do for a living?
	Yeah, so both, so my, well, that's a, so they kind of took turns.
	It wasn't like one all or nothing.
	My dad was, I try not to give too much information about my family because I just don't want to be stalked, but whatever.
	So I, so my dad would work at a night for in the beginning part of my sister and I's life.
	He worked for a radio station, so he did the overnight shift.
	So he would be with us during the day, and then they would sort of go back and forth of who would take us.
	Both of my parents are really well-educated.
	They both have doctorates.
	So my mom has her doctorate in epidemiology, and my dad...
	I'm trying to think if it's in theology or public speaking.
	I don't know if you can get one.
	No, and I can save you that.
	I didn't want to pry too much.
	I just wanted to know, like...
	Practically speaking, how homeschooling works if both parents work.
	How does it work?
	I'm curious.
	It's predominantly my mother.
	Okay.
	It's predominantly my mother.
	I mean, I guess we can fast track a little bit to how you had your own experience because I do know the story having watched some interviews with you.
	And apparently you were at a van tour, which I'm not sure what that is, but a music tour.
	Had aspirations of, I don't know, I would say modeling, but headed to LA, to California.
	And I guess the one question I had is, did your experience begin out of something of a need to rebel from the homeschooling or to break away from it?
	Or did that have nothing to do with the experience you subsequently went through?
	Yeah, let's back up a little bit.
	The Vans Warped Tour is a punk rock music festival tour that tours all around the United States.
	I'm not sure if it still happens.
	But that's what the van...
	Vans comes from the vans, like the shoes.
	You know those cool shoes, like when you're skating.
	So that's what it is.
	It's not a van tour.
	It's a van dwarf tour.
	So just to back up a little bit, my parents were absolutely incredible at raising my sister and I, but we were a little bit sheltered in the way where I thought my parents were as awesome.
	I thought the rest of the world was as awesome as my parents is, right?
	I didn't know.
	I didn't know that the rest of the world wasn't like that.
	I still sometimes have a hard time understanding that the rest of the world has a lot of jerks in it.
	That's not how I think naturally.
	But I really wanted to get off the farm.
	And I was really rebellious.
	I was kind of punk rock.
	I still kind of am.
	So I really wanted to get off the farm, really wanted to do anything other than to be on the farm, which I thought was super lame, which is hilarious because now I freaking love it and I'm obsessed with the farm, right?
	But I went to this Vans Warped Tour.
	I met a photographer there.
	He told me that I could be a model and a star, and I believed him.
	He was from Los Angeles.
	So because I was homeschooled, I graduated early.
	And that's where the initial trafficking situation happened.
	Now, you mentioned recently that given what's happening in public education, you're particularly glad that you were homeschooled.
	Could you talk about that?
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	I'm so grateful that I never went to college.
	Can you believe I said that?
	I did go to beauty school, though.
	I feel that the...
	Well, there's a lot to unpack there.
	Families aren't involved with their children.
	That plays a lot with what I deal with.
	As far as child sexual exploitation, human trafficking, parents are not as involved with their children, and I feel that the indoctrination of our youth is a little bit getting out of hand.
	Not a little bit.
	It's getting out of hand.
	I feel that there are folks in positions of power that don't have our youth's best interests in mind.
	Why did your parents do the homeschooling?
	I mean, you mentioned that school wasn't really a good fit as part of it, but what was their original inspiration for it?
	They didn't trust the school system back then to do a good job.
	So they were ahead of the curve.
	They've always been a little bit ahead of the curve.
	They're amazing people.
	You guys would love them.
	They're probably having the best conversation ever right now.
	They're still in love.
	They're still married.
	I think that they just didn't really trust the school system.
	You know, there was a little bit of a, like, I think people think, oh, it was because you're a religious, because I grew up religious, but that actually really wasn't it.
	I just don't think that they trusted the school system, and my sister and I were a handful.
	People assume that homeschooling is, even though it was primarily originally a product of religious conservatives, there are many independent people on the left and a wide range of other people for their own independent reasons that wanted it.
	Going way back, people like William F. Buckley were really homeschooled.
	It was called private tutoring, but that's what it was.
	So there were certain people who always recognized its superior value going back, well, going back centuries, in fact.
	Because we have a good relationship.
	We have a good bond.
	I'm just really grateful that they did that.
	I mean, I know the trafficking thing is a bit of a black spot, but I think that there could have been a way to do that.
	And also, I truly feel, you know, one of the questions that I was asked on TimCast was what could have been different in my case that would have not made it so that I would have been trafficked.
	I was extremely rebellious.
	That would have happened regardless.
	Does that make sense?
	That wasn't as a result of poor parenting.
	I'm still rebellious.
	I think people have a misunderstanding of human trafficking in two ways.
	One is that most of it's not to script from taken.
	Most of it's coercion by deception.
	It's not physical kidnapping.
	And secondly, human trafficking includes trafficking for labor of all purposes.
	I mean, the recent U.S. Supreme Court case, one of the primary means of human trafficking is for physical labor.
	I mean, it occurs in a wide range of contexts, and people can kind of forget that at times.
	No, that's actually something that's really important to me.
	And I think that is where you get into some of the interesting pieces of human trafficking.
	It's not interesting.
	It's horrible that it happens.
	But just where the T visas line up in there.
	A lot of Americans aren't really...
	I'm used to talking about that.
	I'm looking forward to the day where we can have an honest conversation about human trafficking, where we can start to integrate a lot more of the labor trafficking, because I think folks would realize that's happening in the United States and in Canada a lot more than they would think.
	Well, we're actually going to get there at some point in this discussion, because I've heard the anecdote several times, but I was at a farm and was noticing, we're in Canada, noticing that the people performing the farm work were clearly from South America.
	And I asked the farm person, I said, why not hire local?
	And the issue was that, you know, you can get the cheaper labor from down south, even compared to what people are prepared to work for here.
	Not exactly the same type of human trafficking in that it's, in theory, voluntary.
	But we're getting into some realms of that, what we're seeing with the southern border in the United States.
	But actually, before we even get there, because people are going to be asking the question, and I don't want to get into the details to pry into the nitty-gritty of your experience, but the overview of it.
	When you're talking about your own experience, this was an experience where people obtained more compromising photographs type thing that were being used for monetary purposes or you as a physical body human being?
	Yeah, so sometimes I get really bad at explaining things.
	It's probably because I'm new at it and I'm not as used to it.
	I think folks also get a little shocked that I just started doing interviews.
	So sometimes I do a really horrible job at explaining.
	That Michael Malice interview, I did not do a good job at explaining this.
	It was fine.
	People need to get the framework in their own mind as to what your experience was.
	And then we're going to talk about the definition of human trafficking.
	Yeah, and I'm going to try to be a lot more clear.
	So I was sex trafficked.
	I was sold for sex at age 17 in West Hollywood in California.
	The initial set of folks that brought me out there for a modeling contract and to be a rock star sold me the dream.
	I told my parents, I'm going with or without your permission.
	And I said, if you stop me from going, I will never speak to you again.
	And I meant it at the time, right?
	So I went out to Los Angeles with the help of my parents, and they knew where I was.
	I got an apartment, and I was going out there to be a star.
	Within the matter of a few hours, I was having a beer.
	I wasn't used to drinking.
	That wasn't a type of environment I grew up in.
	I wasn't used to drugs.
	Right away, the beer was introduced.
	Once I was tipsy, then the drugs were introduced.
	And after the drugs were introduced, then started grooming behavior.
	I won't get too specific.
	I don't want to say addicted to the drugs because it was easy for me to get off the drugs once they weren't around.
	But once I was addicted to the drugs, I guess, I was sold for $500 to an older gentleman in the Hollywood Hills for sex.
	So that was the first time that I was trafficked.
	So just so that that's crystal clear.
	And I have told this story before on a different podcast, but that Malice interview, I did not do a good job at explaining it.
	So after that, luckily, I was sex trafficked, but only with that one individual.
	I think I was such a handful.
	This is consistent through my life.
	I think I was such a handful that he ended up giving me back, and then I was left for dead on a drug overdose in a hallway.
	So that time, I got out.
	I was left for dead.
	Probably the best case scenario of how that could have ended.
	I'm very grateful it ended that way because the other options probably would have been worse.
	But I think I was so difficult because I didn't want to do anything.
	Sometimes abusers will get survivors or get victims and try to make them do things in different ways.
	I was super not compliant.
	I was a difficult one.
	And just to explore the idea of grooming, because this is another thing which we hear about, and it's just a word that people use without actually fleshing out or explaining and truly appreciating.
	Grooming, when it comes to this type of individuals, is someone testing to see what limits you're going to go to before you start asking questions, before you start opposing the advances?
	Are they trying to fill you out to see how far you'll go, or whether or not you're going to do it willingly?
	And if not, they move on to somebody else?
	What is that grooming?
	Yeah, everyone's grooming experience is different.
	In this case, talking about my particular case, I say that the grooming started right when we met at the Vans Warped Tour.
	But I also like to remind folks that I was very young.
	I was 15, and it took them two years to actually get me out to Los Angeles.
	That's how long they dedicated this time to grooming.
	But I also like to remind folks that I just turned 40 in May.
	This is back...
	A long time ago before the internet was a thing.
	By today's standards, that grooming process that took them two years to get me to come out to Los Angeles without my parents would now, in today's standards, take a very short period of time through social media.
	Maybe possibly a couple hours.
	Maybe a couple weeks.
	The grooming is an abuser's opportunity to find the victim's vulnerabilities.
	And like you said, sort of test the water and see what they can get away with.
	In my particular case, it was starting to be implanted in my head that it was my fault, that it was my idea.
	Who was I going to talk to?
	The police weren't my friend.
	It's all those types of things.
	They start the tape reeling in your head where you probably won't try to leave.
	Oh, sorry.
	Actually, were they guilt you into thinking that no one's going to believe you because you must have consented to this and therefore you are the reason why it's all happening and you'll be judged by any authority you go to?
	Yep.
	You're a drug addict.
	You're nothing but a...
	I don't want to say anything wild on your show, but I mean, it started the process of like...
	You're a drug addict and you're only good for your body and this is your decision.
	You decided to come out here, blah, blah, blah.
	It was a multi-tier level of just trauma put on top of each other.
	Now I can see it stepping back as a 40-year-old woman, but at the time I was scared.
	I was hungry because I was also very thin back then.
	I was scared.
	I was very hungry.
	I was tired.
	I was traumatized and terrified.
	I was terrified.
	Yeah, I mean, I think the mythology that's out there is that physical force is the primary mechanism of human trafficking, and it's not.
	There was a somewhat decent movie on this.
	I forget, Viggo Mortensen was in it.
	It wasn't.
	It could have been better, but that essentially the common denominators are first is usually deception, then second, some isolation from family, friends, other people, geographic isolation, particularly useful for that purpose.
	Not always required, but is helpful.
	Then third is the various coercive techniques that take place, which can either involve drugs and alcohol and other things like that.
	Then it's finding vulnerabilities.
	It's mostly psychological manipulation that may have coercion as a threat or blackmail as a threat underneath it, but that's often rarely necessary, and the more sophisticated human traffickers don't rely on that.
	The ones that are successful, they're really good pips is what they are at a certain level.
	You got it.
	Barnes has it.
	You know he was trafficking.
	My daughter was recruited to be a...
	Every interview so I could just have you pop out and say like what I'm thinking.
	Yeah, well, my daughter was recruited to be a model when she was young, and I refused until she was 17, 18, and then did a lot of investigative work and might have had some other people watching some things she didn't know about.
	Because that world, once you're near it, you understand how it operates and how easy it is.
	I think that's the biggest thing people misunderstand.
	They think, oh, as long as my kid doesn't get kidnapped off the street or it's not taken, then my kid's not at risk, and they're really, really wrong.
	Very wrong.
	So with a picture, yes.
	So I did have a trafficker that did beat me up.
	So where my story leads is I got free that initial time.
	Awesome.
	Cool.
	I never really had an opportunity to deal with the trauma.
	At that point in time, we were just putting the first laws in the United States about that crime.
	So about the crime.
	So really, it wasn't a pop culture.
	There were no real words to put to it at that time.
	As far as like a pop culture, we weren't talking.
	We weren't talking about it in the United States.
	And even when I went to the emergency room during the overdose, I did not turn anyone in.
	I didn't say anything.
	I was treated like a minor drug addict in West Hollywood, which wouldn't be that weird, I guess.
	But unfortunately, because I never really dealt with it, because I was too embarrassed and really didn't know what happened, that initial trauma was there.
	And I chose To go back to the adult entertainment lifestyle later in life and ended up being trafficked again.
	So there is a moment there where I was willing.
	And then at a second point in my life, I stopped being willing again.
	My second trafficker, a pimp, but he was a trafficker.
	That was a little bit of a different style where I faced more physical abuse in a more prolonged period of time where I...
	Where I had an extreme trauma bond with my abuser.
	And Stockholm Syndrome.
	A lot of people call it Stockholm Syndrome.
	Stockholm Syndrome is a good description of what almost all human traffickers do at some level.
	To understand how Patty Hearst became Patty Hearst.
	It's the same psychological techniques and tricks.
	Some not used deliberately, but in the human trafficking context used deliberately.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Your experience in Hollywood, how long does this go on for?
	And when you say breaking free, what does that look like?
	This goes on for how long, and how do you make a decision, or how do you escape this situation?
	Yeah, so the first time I had an overdose, and I think it was probably a couple weeks, but I don't remember a lot about that.
	Gratefully, a lot of it's like...
	Blotchy and blocked out.
	I mean, I was on drugs.
	I remember specific things.
	I remember enough.
	Let's put it that way.
	I remember enough.
	But fortunately, I don't remember everything.
	I've also, as a survivor, had to come to grips with the fact that one day some of those memories might come back and I'm going to have to deal with that when it pops up.
	But I think it was two weeks, but I literally don't know.
	Only probably my mom would know because I came back to Illinois.
	After I went to Cedars-Sinai.
	So my parents dropped me off.
	I was trafficked right away.
	I ended up with an overdose at Cedars-Sinai.
	Then I flew back home.
	And then I actually went back to Los Angeles after that.
	So it's kind of a little bit wild, that whole period.
	Fortunately, I was able to get right off the drugs.
	That was good.
	The damage on my life was bad.
	So that's how I got out of the first one.
	The second one was way more difficult.
	And how did the second...
	How did the...
	You end up...
	Because I think the other thing people don't understand is a lot of people get trapped into that world.
	The psychological damage is such that they revisit it.
	Sometimes initially, what may appear externally to be consensually, but...
	To a certain degree of understanding coercion, the way I think the Nixxiom prosecution did a good job of exposing, that a lot of these things are deeply coercive and not truly consensual in a meaningful way.
	But could you explain the psychology of what took place there?
	Yeah, the second time, it was a little bit more presented like an opportunity to...
	Well, I thought I had a boyfriend.
	So let's start off by I thought I had a boyfriend.
	And so it starts off very small and once again, sort of testing the waters.
	And it was presented as like I was part of a team.
	There was no team there.
	It was just a one-person show.
	But it was presented as...
	And once again, you have to remember, I still have that brain where everybody...
	Is a good person.
	Now that I've become a survivor advocate, I realize, okay, there's evil in the world.
	There's evil people that do horrible things.
	But I'm still functioning like, oh, true love is possible.
	I'm in love with this person.
	And there are also, as far as the grooming process, is like the showering of gifts, giving you things you haven't gotten elsewhere, being told that you're, you know...
	Amazing and beautiful.
	I'm not saying that those things can't happen in a regular relationship.
	It's just in this specific instance, that was all part of the grooming process.
	And then all of a sudden, it sort of flips from one to the other.
	Or at least that's what happened in my case.
	And how did you escape or get out of it?
	How did I get out?
	Yeah.
	You know, honestly...
	I never fully say that necessarily all the way out.
	I take it day by day, which sounds wild to a lot of people, but I went back to him so many times.
	I try not to make too many blanket statements.
	I have been away from him for a very long time, which is amazing.
	But it started off with the first time that I left.
	I contacted an organization in Chicago.
	I was in Chicago.
	Contacted an organization through email.
	I had gotten their information off of a Bible, off of a little Bible that I had gotten.
	I still have it, which is pretty cool.
	Their email was on the back of a Bible.
	And they serve survivors of human trafficking and sexual exploitation.
	So I emailed them.
	Asked for help.
	I was given an advocate, and she came and moved me out right away.
	I was taken right away, sent to a survivor safe house.
	Unfortunately, those trauma bonds were so deep that I actually left three months after the program and went right back.
	Or three months into the program.
	It's a two-year program.
	So I went right back.
	After that, it was a slower...
	But I'm very grateful for that experience of going to that safe house.
	Because what they did was, even though the chains are all the way broken, the bondage in my life wasn't all the way broken, it started to make a crack in that chain where I started to see the lies that he had.
	Put in my head.
	I started to see things for the way that they were.
	And so even though it didn't stick, and even though I still had that sort of extreme trauma bond and that Stockholm syndrome with him, he couldn't get over on me the same way he used to.
	Then when I went back, I kept trying, trying, trying, and then the last time it just stuck.
	The last time it just stuck.
	And I haven't been back since.
	So that's good.
	Two things about that.
	One is I want to discuss the...
	The nature of the shelter system and how, at least in my experience, one of the best systems in the world in terms of the people that are advocating their capabilities, their skill sets, and that people should be aware of them.
	I mean, I was doing that legal representation since I was a kid lawyer 20 years ago.
	But the second aspect is the psychological trauma component that sort of baffles people.
	For often people go back, they're looking for that original praise.
	I mean, this is true for kids that have abusive parents, any kind of coercive, abusive dynamic that's psychologically effective and impactful, that they remember the positive and they keep trying to seek it and seek it and seek it.
	And if the manipulator has done well, they've made the person almost addicted to it neurochemically.
	Could you explain both of those?
	I don't know if I can.
	I don't know if I can too well, better than I have.
	I guess first, describe how the shelter system works and all the services it provides.
	I mean, you're talking about counseling.
	I had a client that was being stalked and her husband was a bounty hunter.
	So you talk about an unusual, really serious problem.
	We got her all around the world to an anonymous location.
	He was not able to track it and trace it.
	That's their skill set.
	I mean, the capability to move anyone anywhere in the world.
	If she had gone through any bureaucracy, it would have been picked up.
	The annoying part of the process ended up being the IRS.
	That's another story.
	Isn't it always?
	Yes, no doubt.
	But can you describe just that aspect of just how helpful, useful, and the large variety of services that they have?
	Yeah, so this was still at a time when the movement was really getting off its feet.
	This is probably the...
	The crest of the survivor space or what was really starting to go.
	Oh, there's another fun part.
	And I forgot this part.
	And I'm so sorry.
	I'll go back to your original question.
	But I saw a survivor on YouTube.
	That's why I actually reached out for help.
	I saw a survivor on YouTube.
	Her name's Annie.
	She still serves survivors in Las Vegas.
	I saw her on YouTube.
	I don't want to say it was with CNN, but I think it might have been.
	She might have been on CNN.
	And I saw her story on YouTube.
	And when she put words to my experience, that's when I decided to step forward.
	And then this last year, I've had the opportunity to meet her, which was like an amazing experience.
	And we did a podcast together.
	But if it wasn't for her, I never would have known what was happening to me.
	Does that make sense?
	I wasn't understanding what was happening.
	In my family and milieu of friends, we have social workers who, one of the phenomena they describe is when people, in one particular case, it happens to be a wife, but when people are in abusive relationships, on the one hand, they don't know how to get out, and on the other hand, even when they do manage to get out, they go right back because there is, they don't have anything else in their lives oftentimes.
	They don't have another safety net of family where even going back to the abusive relationship, at least you're going back to some security.
	In a spiritual and psychological sense, even if that security is just more of the abuse that you just had to get out of.
	It's the devil you know versus the devil you don't.
	Now, the one thing I'm interested in is, first of all, physically, literally, how did you discover the existence of these services?
	What are these services?
	Where can people who are in these relationships find them to come and physically take them out of the dangerous situation that they find themselves in, even if they subsequently decide to go back on their own or of their own volition?
	Where do they even find these numbers in the first place?
	Yeah, that's a great question.
	In Canada, you have an amazing human trafficking hotline.
	It's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, 200 plus languages.
	Also in the United States.
	We have an amazing human trafficking hotline that's 365 days a year and offers 200 plus languages.
	In fact, I just learned something new this week that when a survivor calls and if they don't speak English, so in those cases of labor trafficking or sex trafficking, if English isn't someone's native language.
	The human trafficking hotline can pick up within three seconds what language they're speaking, regardless of whether or not they're speaking English.
	So that's really, really cool.
	And to any survivor out there that's listening, if you're somebody that's gone back to your abuser in a domestic violence situation or in a human trafficking situation, I hear you, I see you, I love you, and I get it.
	Because I clearly have one of those stories where I kept going back and back and back.
	So there are over 2,000 organizations.
	There are so many amazing...
	So one thing that's been awesome to see is the...
	Amazing changes that we've had with survivor aftercare when it comes to human trafficking.
	So I like to do a survivor-led approach that's more of a harm reduction.
	Each survivor is different.
	So whatever you're sort of looking for as a survivor, whatever you think might fit you best or wherever you're looking to go in your journey, it's pretty much out there for you.
	You might have to move state to state.
	But we have a lot of different things out there, from horse therapy to survivor safe houses that do continuing education, help you get your GED, and you can actually go to get college accredited courses right there on site.
	We see that a lot in Los Angeles, so you can go to be dental assistant, different things like that, pretty cool, where you can go get your continuing education.
	But generally, when survivors leave, it's just good to get them into a safe place.
	Where they're not at a risk of being harmed by their former abuser because when a survivor leaves their abuser, it is the most dangerous time, statistically speaking, for that survivor or victim.
	So it's always good to get you in a safe place and get you a chance to where you're not at a risk of self-harm.
	And then, you know, we can start assessing needs from there.
	But the cool part is once a survivor has the opportunity to be free, if and when...
	They decide to stay away from their abuser.
	The world is their oyster.
	I've seen survivors go on to do absolutely incredible, beautiful, and amazing things.
	Really amazing things.
	And it was your experience with the aftercare...
	Was it generally positive?
	Because in my experience from almost all of my clients, it was.
	I think one of the good things they did was avoid moral judgmentalism for people that went back because they understood the underlying psychology that was in play.
	But what was your experience, a positive experience?
	You know, the Survivor Safe House that I went to was a faith-based organization.
	And I wasn't there yet as a survivor.
	I wasn't there.
	And it's wild because I am a Christian and I believe in God, but I just wasn't there.
	I had come from too much of the gutter.
	I wasn't trying to hear it.
	And I try to remind folks of that.
	Not every survivor is ready to be there, but different options are available.
	But like I said, even though I went back to my abuser, a lot of people would say, oh, that safe house failed.
	Actually, that's where the chains were starting to be broken.
	From seeing Annie on YouTube, from reaching out for help, which is so freaking hard whenever you're in an abusive relationship.
	Just reaching out for help, seeing Annie on YouTube, and then going to the safe house for three months just to air out and start to have those seeds of hope.
	And, you know, that was like really where I started to believe that, you know, I had potential, that I was beautiful, that I was smart, that maybe I could do something more with my life than be stuck with this loser.
	You know, that was that was where those seeds of hope.
	So in that way, they were successful.
	It might seem like they weren't, but they actually were because I did end up leaving.
	I'm going to bring this chat up and then we have to get into the discussion of the definition of human trafficking as we're using it here.
	Prostitution, adult sex work, which I know you have positions on.
	How much time did it take to unlearn the grooming?
	It's like retraining your brain.
	It's sort of on point with what you're discussing right now.
	And you touched on it with Michael Malice in the dating context, but in general, how do you unlearn or how do you build confidence in humanity after having experienced something which basically can lead you to believe that everyone and everyone is out there to exploit you for the worst possible purposes?
	Yeah, dating has been a little bit difficult, but it's probably saved me from dating a lot of losers.
	I think one of the reasons why I didn't step forward before 2020 was because I never felt intelligent enough to speak out loud, especially not on behalf of a lot of victims that can't speak for themselves.
	It wasn't until I started tweeting about human trafficking that I even realized that I even could start talk about this stuff.
	And so I'm still unlearning.
	That's the truth.
	I'm still unlearning.
	I'm still unpacking that.
	So it's like my best friend put up a rule the other day.
	She's like, you're not allowed to say that you're stupid anymore or anything like that.
	I'm still unpacking it.
	But just because, you know...
	I think that almost everybody has these lies about them, especially if you're big on the social media space or whatever.
	You know, people talk trash all the time and it just depends on what you believe about them or what you want to believe about yourself.
	I think that that's on a small scale a little bit of an abusive relationship.
	And you don't have to believe.
	So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if somebody tells me, Eliza, you wear too much makeup on social media, but actually I like wearing a lot of makeup, then I have to sit there and say, okay, do they think I look ugly?
	Do they think I look like, I don't know, clown face or whatever?
	And then I have to sit there and go, you know what?
	Actually, I like wearing a lot of makeup.
	That's just my style.
	So you have to kind of get that.
	It's thinking, thinking out, and if it's just the way that you are, and if it's just the way you have to appreciate yourself for who you are.
	Does that make sense?
	I was going to say, you mentioned that there's the democratizing effect of big tech that allows your voice to be heard, and for a lot of people out there, what you're doing is very important because you're relatable.
	In other words, if you were...
	Three PhDs and whatever, you know, you're not going to be relatable, just to be blunt about it.
	If I was as smart as you two, I would not...
	You guys have to dumb yourself down to talk to Plibs like us.
	No, no, no, not at all.
	But there's different forms of intelligence and social intelligence is what's most important in this space.
	And the people that I worked with that were the best advocates were people that were like you.
	And particularly it was...
	I mean, it was beneficial that they had lived experience that could matter.
	And people like me, frankly, would be far less likely to be impactful than compared to people in your position.
	Mostly what I did as a lawyer was help put them in a legal position to protect them from the legal system or use the legal system to enhance their position.
	But you've mentioned and been a strong advocate at identifying how big tech...
	The downside of big tech is big tech has made deliberate decisions that people still underappreciate.
	Deliberate decisions in removing safeguards of parental control, removing safeguards of the private information of particularly children and young teens.
	This happened to my nieces repeatedly.
	And in making them available and accessible for some of the worst forms of human trafficking in the world that exist.
	And for those out there, just briefly, human trafficking is coerced labor of any kind.
	Whether it's sexual labor or other labor, that's the legal definition.
	So I get people who want to say it's only human trafficking if you get kidnapped and put on a ship and sent someplace.
	No, that's not it.
	But putting that aside, could you talk about how social media is, well, frankly, it is, this is what the Texas lawsuit is all about, deliberately engineered in many cases to empower some of the worst human traffickers in the world.
	Yeah.
	I'm really uncomfortable talking about my own story and my own life.
	This is where I start having fun.
	Actually, Eliza, in Malice's interview, you said some things to him as to how people should deal with this and not ask for too many details and listen.
	Again, the individual details, there's a voyeurist tendency in the general public where there's only so many details anybody really needs to know to understand the situation and then you can move on to the bigger issues.
	Policy issues, but the tendency is a lot of people just want details to satisfy their own imaginations.
	When you're talking your own story, we don't need to get into those.
	The broader policy issues resulting from your experience, bringing it into social media, it's easier and almost less invasive to talk about.
	And I know you have some opinions, so take it away and let us know.
	Yeah, this is, well, and actually, you know, just not for nothing.
	I definitely, I don't mind talking about it.
	I'm more uneasy.
	I get really uncomfortable because I think one thing people don't realize is usually during most interviews, I'm having flashes in my head.
	So I'm like trying to act normal, but also like kind of being, I don't want to say triggered because that's so corny, but I watched your interview with Poso.
	And I actually said it was my favorite interview of his, and I've watched many, because you went back into the history of his life.
	So I actually didn't feel special today.
	I know that that's how you guys do things.
	And actually, that's why I thought it was one of the most interesting.
	And I really enjoyed that interview of his, because you went back and talked about his life.
	So I knew what was coming.
	So yeah, so the Facebook lawsuit with three minor, at the time they were minor, now they're adults, but with the three minors, survivors of human trafficking that are suing Facebook is a little bit different than what we're seeing in the case of Reddit and Twitter.
	So why we call them all human trafficking, which kind of goes back to the original question that you popped up on Super Chat, is when we talk about the The case of Reddit and the two survivors, so there's one survivor suing Reddit, and then we could also talk about Pornhub in Canada as well, multiple class action lawsuits.
	So where it comes to human trafficking and when we're talking about the images, and you guys could probably speak much better to the law than I could, but sharing an image, a sexual image or video of anyone, adults, Adult woman, adult man, anything that is non-consensual that includes sexual assault and /or human trafficking, especially if...
	There is an image or video created of that act, of that crime, and then distributed without consent, especially if it's a minor, is considered human trafficking or revenge porn.
	It would just depend.
	So I think one thing that I never have ever talked about, and I want to start, and I've never found a good way to say it, so I'm just going to say it.
	I don't think people understand that in the case of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2, who are currently suing Twitter, those young men's child sexual abuse material, which was watched on Twitter over 160,000 times, was undoubtedly downloaded by many people.
	I don't think what people understand in cases like that one, That that video will pop up for those young men, the rest of those young men's life.
	Now, because that video has been put in the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children database, it has also been thrown into the Microsoft Photo DNA database.
	So every single time it pops up on Pornhub, Facebook, Twitter, they're going to have to be notified or in a pedophiles catalog.
	Because that's the truth.
	It'll pop up in pedophiles' catalog for the rest of those two young men's life.
	Those two young men will be sexually exploited for the rest of their life in a digital form.
	Unless we find a way to remove the video completely from the internet.
	Does that make sense?
	And this is the issue where I see it in the chat.
	The discourse as to the definition of human trafficking.
	People do have...
	I don't know if it's an antiquated or just an oversimplified understanding of human trafficking as literally being taken, and I'm not saying it to be glib, that's just the way people think of human trafficking, where they're not going to look at prostitution, potentially, under certain circumstances as being human trafficking.
	They're going to say, it's adults making decisions to get hooked on drugs and exploited.
	Some people are going to say, play stupid games, win stupid prizes type thing, where if you're an adult, anything goes, and it can't be human trafficking if there was an element of Willful decisions made in the beginning.
	When it comes to children, people are going to say, well, stolen images, it's revenge porn, that's not human trafficking either.
	And so I guess the idea is, others might say this is a dangerous oversimplification of the term, and I brought up the chat a few seconds ago, but the idea is that human trafficking is going to be any exploitation for any purposes whatsoever of non-consensual images of a sexual nature or In labor, for labor purposes, which is a little bit more different, but that's what it's going to cover.
	So it's not going to be as egregious as a Hollywood movie.
	It could just be snapping pictures and then posting them online and thereby subjecting that individual to that for the rest of their lives.
	Like it or not, that is going to be the understood definition of human trafficking.
	So it's going to be, in a way, less shocking than the movie Taken, but it's going to be...
	It's going to illustrate the extent of the problem where it encompasses a lot and then big tech has a role to play in all of this.
	Yeah, I just always let folks know it's forced fraud or coercion for the sale of labor or sex.
	It also includes child soldiers, the UN description, but not the United States description.
	The black market sale of human organs is also included in the UN description, but not in the United States.
	Illegal adoption, child begging.
	So human trafficking encompasses a lot, and that's where we get that digital human trafficking as well.
	I think that when folks try to act like, especially in the Pornhub cases, where we're seeing over 100 survivors, many of which are children that are suing Pornhub specifically, no one can say that that's not...
	Human trafficking.
	That's definitely human trafficking.
	Now, in the case of big tech, so the Facebook cases are a little bit different in the way that they are facilitating abusers coming in contact with children.
	That's sort of what Facebook's role is.
	But all of these platforms have a problem with child sexual abuse material.
	And human trafficking.
	And child sexual abuse material is also included in human trafficking.
	I think folks do try to oversimplify an extremely nuanced and complex crime.
	It's like the most complex crime.
	Now, did you follow any of the NXIVM case?
	Yes.
	So that was a case where you saw some people react with, oh, that can't possibly be human trafficking.
	He's serving a 120-year prison sentence because it is, including some surprising people who are worried about hypnosis.
	But I won't mention Scott Adams by name.
	But in terms of that people don't have any form of coercion, but that's an example where you have very sophisticated people.
	Who became entrapped through every mechanism of mind control that can exist to effectively traffic using blackmail, using extortion, using various forms of...
	Replacing their self-worth with believing certain conduct was somehow now okay.
	Was it surprising to you that that kind of case is finally getting prosecuted?
	Was it surprising to you some of the public reaction of people not thinking of that as human trafficking?
	What was your reaction to it?
	That case, actually, I'm not really allowed to speak on that as much as I'd like.
	Some I can't go into as much as I'd like to be able to.
	That's mainly just because of my job.
	And I serve survivors.
	All around.
	So I'll say this.
	That is, and I've said this publicly, that is by far the most complex, nuanced case I have ever seen.
	I never thought that I would see someone, I never thought I'd see a case that complex.
	And we'll leave it there.
	Okay, yeah, that's fair.
	And I think it's a good, oh, sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, no, I was going to say, I can ask a broader question, which does not deal with that case in particular, but is an interesting question nonetheless.
	At what point does one have to accept a statement from someone who one might perceive to be a victim, who asserts that they're not a victim?
	As in, you will look at people and you're going to say you're a survivor or you're a victim and you're not, whereas some people might say I'm not a victim and I'm not a survivor, this was all consensual.
	Where do you draw the line between an individual's stated consent?
	and what you perceive to be the underlying coercion that they may not yet acknowledge, or they may not feel that is there?
	I never put survivor on someone else.
	So in the case of Britney Spears, I did not touch or compare that to human trafficking until she did.
	That's when I started comparing it to human trafficking.
	I never want to put survivor victim on anyone else.
	Also, what folks decide to do, if someone wants to be in a relationship with 10 other women and one man, as long as everyone's a consenting adult, that's up to them.
	And it's not for me to judge their lifestyle choices, right?
	But I think that when folks are high profile, It gives them a different platform to work out some of their potential trauma.
	And I think that's a little bit of what we're seeing in the NXIVM case.
	I was actually not even talking about it.
	Let me shut up.
	No, no, because I actually promise you, I'm ignorant enough that I actually was not even talking about that.
	I'm more thinking of the case where sex workers, prostitutes, where some people are going to look at them.
	As some people who are looking for, I say looking for the victims, and I don't say this in a negative way, but they say, this person's a victim, and others are going to say, it's consensual, it's an adult making adult decisions, and you perceive them as a victim where they don't perceive it themselves.
	Where do you draw the line, then, between human trafficking and, let's just say, adult consensual sex work, where the issue of consent itself is always nebulous, to some extent?
	Yeah, so as far as, okay, if anyone's under the age of 18, they cannot consent to selling sex.
	So let's get that right out of the way.
	If anyone's a child, they cannot consent to selling sex for anything at all.
	Like even if it's any type of good, anything like that, a child cannot consent to selling sex.
	So once you get that out of the way, if someone is a willing adult sex worker, I under no circumstances would put the label of human trafficking survivor or victim on them.
	Nor do I even put it on in the case of survival sex.
	Survival sex is something for food, drugs, shelter, medicine.
	Those are cases where I don't put that on them, and I leave that for them to decide and to choose and to identify as a survivor if and when they are ready and if they are a survivor.
	Also, are we talking, do they have a pimp?
	Do they have someone that's financially benefiting off of their situation, or are they choosing to sell themselves?
	If I, tonight, after this interview, decided to go work at a strip club or to film porn by myself, if I'm not giving my money to anyone else, then I am not a human trafficking survivor.
	I'm a willing adult entertainer.
	Does that make sense?
	Now, what percentage of, and this may not be something you've looked at, but one ongoing debate has been, for those who draw the line at the same place you do, which is coercion, is because the open debate is how much of what happens in sex trade in the adult entertainer business really is coerced and how much of it is truly consensual.
	I think your definition is a fair definition.
	Someone may...
	Feel economically compelled and so forth, but that's not the same kind of coercion that human trafficking implies.
	But, you know, there's so many, I mean, from deprivation of passports, so much, I mean, many of the people smuggled up through across the border these days.
	I mean, I think the latest number is 70% of the women are abused and assaulted, and it's the cartels doing it, and often they're doing it for a form of trafficking, either for, you know, illegal labor in some cases or in...
	A lot of cases.
	Yes, or sexual abuse in other cases.
	What's your thought process?
	How much of the industry, because there's a big feminist debate within that as well, how much of the industry do you think are people doing things that they are really truly consensual, we would objectively say is consensual, and how much of it's really coerced?
	Yeah, I think that...
	So if you take in the case of Pornhub, there are a lot of non-consensual sexual assault videos on there, hidden sneak cameras where people were hiding cameras, and just all different types of stuff, child sexual abuse material.
	But the overall was consensual, right?
	So I don't think that Pornhub's the one and done, be all, end all.
	But I think that...
	There are a lot of willing adult sex workers, and I want them to be safe.
	But I have absolutely no idea how many willing adult sex workers there are compared to human trafficking victims.
	I can say this.
	There are so many survivors of human trafficking in the United States alone that basically all of our beds at every survivor safe house and anything pertaining to human trafficking are almost always full, minor.
	Or adult.
	Labor or sex.
	So, I mean, any which way you cut it, we have a problem.
	And to be brutally honest, I don't focus really at all on the willing adult sex work or whatever they got going on.
	My hands are so full with the overwhelming human rights violations that are happening on big tech to children.
	It's like I don't even have time to think about what willing adults are doing.
	They're not really my concern.
	Now, when people throw around the word Twitter war, very loosely to refer to spats, you're having sort of a major disagreement with Jack Dorsey on Twitter's response to these issues.
	And I don't think a lot of people out there truly appreciate the nitty-gritty of Twitter's culpability in failing or actually refusing to remove some of this stuff from the plaintiffs.
	Explain that to people who may not know the details of that situation.
	Yeah, so...
	Twitter is being sued by two minor survivors of child sexual abuse material, John Doe 1 and John Doe 2. They had a video that surfaced of their child sexual exploitation on Twitter.
	The original video came from Snapchat and then it made its way over to Twitter.
	That video...
	He was watched over 160,000 times, was retweeted over 2,000 times, and John Doe No.
	1, who was a minor at the time, reached out to Twitter with his government ID and filed a report.
	So that was step one.
	He was a minor at the time.
	I try to be very clear about this.
	He was a minor.
	He reached out with his government ID.
	Filed a report to have this child sexual exploitation material removed.
	So these are two 13-year-old boys in a video on Twitter, on the main of Twitter.
	We're not talking some dark web, deep dive.
	This is just a video living out on Twitter.
	He found out because his schoolmates saw it.
	And he reached out to Twitter.
	And Twitter gave him the runaround.
	And after reviewing the video...
	After Twitter reviewed the video and after Twitter looked at the government-issued photo ID stating that John Doe No. 1 was a minor at the time, they wrote John Doe back and said, after review, we've decided not to remove the video.
	And just to quell people's concern, because people are going to be asking what this video is, I have never seen it.
	I don't even know what's in it.
	I don't know the description of it.
	Sorry, say that again?
	I've never seen it.
	I don't want to see it.
	But are we in a realm of this video where it's questionable what's going on in the video?
	Or is this as clear cut as it gets in terms of the content and the objective nature of it?
	Two completely naked 13-year-old boys in a video.
	So you can do it as you will.
	So let's say like it was questionable, right?
	So let's say because I've seen some 13 year olds that can maybe look a little older.
	So let's say like it was questionable after they were issued.
	So this is my deal with big tech.
	Once they are notified by the survivor or victim, that's when they become that's when they're knowingly profiting off of the human trafficking.
	Revenge porn and the child sexual abuse material.
	As far as I'm concerned before then, and you guys could probably, I mean, legally, I don't know if that would hold up.
	But as far as I'm concerned before then, you know, they run big platforms.
	I don't expect them.
	But once these survivors, these survivors are begging.
	These survivors are begging.
	So in the case of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2, John Doe 1 begged Twitter to remove this child sexual abuse material.
	And it took the Department of Homeland Security stepping in to have Twitter remove this video.
	Unfortunately, John Doe 1 and John Doe 2 are not alone.
	In 2020 alone, Twitter reported over 65,000 child sexual abuse material to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
	Facebook reported 95% of over 65 million child sexual abuse material.
	In 2020 alone to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
	Now, as you'll know, in Canada, there's a different system of reporting.
	So that's a whole different spot where you'd report.
	And that's not even globally.
	So that's just in the United States alone.
	That is just what they reported.
	And so this is a major problem.
	And I know a lot of people are probably thinking to themselves like, oh my gosh, I've never seen child sexual abuse material on Twitter.
	It's so bad.
	I'm not meaning to laugh.
	It's so bad that the New York Times has done extensive investigative reporting about this.
	You can look it up.
	It's all the numbers and everything are in there.
	They by far have done my favorite job at reporting on this issue.
	But also, last week, the Indian government has charged Twitter with three new violations of their, what I would consider, maybe like, what would you guys call it?
	What would their version of it be?
	Not the Constitution, but it would be like...
	I'm not sure exactly what the term would be, but I'm following the chat.
	I want people to understand.
	I'll bring up Raymond Chamas' argument in Super Chat.
	Should have immediately pulled the plug on the servers.
	Cable physically severed the data centers.
	Two things out here.
	People are saying, you can't look for this stuff.
	Do not look for this stuff.
	Don't look for the videos.
	Don't watch them, because if it is indeed what it's supposed to be, you're not allowed possessing it on your own phone.
	And it's a problem.
	This is one thing that people don't appreciate.
	Sharing even innocuous pictures of family and whatever, it can run afoul of the law in a very meaningful sense and constitute the exact CP that is outlawed.
	So to say you haven't seen it is not a flaw.
	You're not allowed to.
	No, you shouldn't want to.
	And I have seen some on Twitter, and I can tell you now, you will never be the same.
	You don't want to see it.
	It's very violent.
	It's very disgusting.
	Don't ever save it on your phone.
	And there are ways to report in the United States.
	Once again, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has a tip line.
	Twitter does have a separate form for reporting child sexual abuse material.
	It's not technically allowed on Twitter, but they're not aggressive in removing it just as how...
	Pornhub was not being aggressive in removing it.
	I actually would say that Facebook is the most aggressive in removing it, but they are also the largest platform.
	And they also have designed extra proprietary tools.
	But what Facebook does that's a little bit different is they connect, oh my goodness.
	Yeah, sorry.
	He was whining and I didn't want him to...
	Look at that angel.
	Look at this dog.
	He's sitting on the stairs.
	He doesn't see well, so when he gets stuck on the stairs, he sits there whining until I come and get him.
	What a sweetheart.
	You've interrupted the stream, sir.
	He looks like Toto from Wizard of Oz.
	Yeah, and that radiophonics dog that's sitting there looking at that old school record player.
	I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt, but I heard him whining and I don't want him to interrupt the stream.
	It's all good.
	And to give people a comparison, just think back to how Parler got taken down because they weren't removing every post that simply concerned January 6th.
	And this was done as a great moral justification according to the courts.
	These were just words about an event.
	And yet Twitter claims and refuses frequently to remove these images that they're profiting from.
	And so that disparity was one that should have been highlighted at the time that the media chose not to.
	And noting what can be done versus what is done in the contrast.
	Speech is so dangerous.
	You got to pull the plug.
	But sexual exploitation and trafficking images, no problem.
	No, and I wanna Really quickly, just to go back on that a little bit, I've seen censorship on big tech, of voices they don't like, ideas they don't like, health stuff.
	First Amendment stuff.
	I mean, just like wild stuff.
	You know, the New York Times reported about a survivor named Adrian from Illinois that begged Twitter for six years.
	This is in the New York Times.
	The piece is called Why Do We Let Corporations Profit Off Rape Videos?
	And it's recent, too.
	It's not like an old piece or anything.
	By Nicholas Kristof.
	This survivor, Adrian, asked Twitter for six years to remove a nude video of her.
	I believe that is child sexual abuse material.
	It took Nicholas Kristof from the New York Times getting in contact with Twitter for them to remove this video.
	Think about all the people that have been cut off of big tech social media platforms for speaking about COVID-19, possible solutions for ways that folks could take care of themselves, things about the election, things about the 6th.
	I mean, who knows what it is?
	You know, just different ideas, different, who knows what they're talking about, but we're all talking about like free speech issues, like things that I could say to you on the street.
	Under no circumstances could these human rights violations even be legal anywhere.
	Like from the point of impact to the distribution.
	Now where folks get confused, and I think this would be good for your audiences.
	Facebook, Twitter, and all these platforms make money off of us from data sales and from advertising sales on all of our profiles and all of our platforms.
	Just how Viva was speaking about in the beginning of the interview, if you see an advertisement on here, it's not because I put it on here.
	It's because they put it on here.
	You were talking a little bit about advertising.
	On John Doe 1 and John Doe 2's...
	Child sexual abuse material, specifically when it comes to Twitter, is they profited off that profile simply existing and then the amount of views and how that works out.
	And I know this gets really confusing for folks, but when Twitter goes to Pepsi or BMW and says, hey, we want you to come advertise on our platform.
	We have this many active Twitter profile users.
	This is our data.
	So that child sexual abuse material, let's just take that one specific instance from John Doe 1 and John Doe 2. That specific data would go into what they'd use to make money.
	Because anytime you have a free platform, we're the product, right?
	Precisely.
	And they have absolutely the technology to flag these items and get rid of them right away.
	They're choosing not to because they profit more from those images being up.
	And only when there's enough political outrage do they actually do something about it.
	And they're still refusing to do anything about it systematically.
	Now let's transition to Facebook.
	One aspect with Facebook that the Texas suit detailed is the reason for all of these protected safeguards that they promised they would put in, sometimes required by law, Illinois biometric law, privacy requirements, things like that, is that if kids were going to have access to it...
	Then parents wanted to make sure they controlled what they saw and who interacted with them, that their child's information would never be shared and monetized, because otherwise their concern was this would be basically a human trafficking auction.
	Well, Facebook did just the opposite.
	Facebook basically removed the privacy protections, removed parental consensual control.
	That's what the Massachusetts suit is about.
	The biometric suit against them and Google and YouTube in Illinois is about them using that information violation of the biometric laws in Illinois, the privacy identification laws.
	And then Texas is about how this was a deliberate...
	They often sold this information...
	Two human traffickers.
	That's how outrageous their conduct was.
	Yeah.
	It's absolutely horrific.
	If anyone wants to get probably the most up-to-date information about the way...
	Facebook is royally dropping the ball.
	You can look at the Human Trafficking Institute Federal 2020 report.
	In that report, you'll see that 58% of, and this is widely reported on in mainstream media outlets, that 58% of all of human trafficking victims in the United States in 2020 We're as a result of Facebook.
	That's why I always say, like, I know that the border is important.
	Trust me.
	I never mean to diminish the border.
	I think that that's pretty cut and dry.
	We have a humanitarian crisis at our border.
	But we have a second humanitarian crisis going on with our big tech social media platforms and abusers contacting children, abusers baiting children to sending them explicit images and videos that are distributed between traffickers.
	It's across the board.
	It's simply horrible.
	It's like abusers are finding children on big tech, Facebook especially, because they just make it so simple.
	And the way that that works is you can contact someone you're not even friends with.
	So you can literally search for a specific age demographic.
	And the way that abusers are using big tech is they'll look for that vulnerable child that's on there complaining about their parents.
	Oh, my parents said I can't dye my hair green.
	Oh, you know, they look for the specific vulnerabilities and then they'll strike up a conversation with the youth.
	Start to pick out some of those specific vulnerabilities like, oh, you have abuse in the home.
	Oh, you were abused by your father.
	Oh, you know, nobody at school likes me.
	Things like that.
	And then or, you know, if the child wants something, oh, you want a new phone or, oh, I'll pay for you to dye your hair green.
	That's kind of how that conversation starts.
	And they can either sell your child the dream.
	By letting them think that they can offer them something that you can't offer them in a real, tangible, physical way and set up an opportunity for that abuser to meet with a child in real life.
	In some cases, they'll transport the child to the abuser.
	So it could be by plane, could be by bus, or in other cases, it'll be to send a sexual image or video, and they don't actually physically meet in real life, but then they have that.
	And once they have those sexual images or videos of the child, then they can blackmail for more.
	Someone asked a question, and I think it's on point here.
	Would you consider cuties as human trafficking on late?
	I don't know if you covered it already.
	When we have the discussion as to the fine line between human trafficking and Hollywood, or in this case, Europe, movies, where is that line?
	And specifically on Cuties, what's your take?
	I called that child sexual exploitation, sort of.
	It definitely couldn't be something criminal.
	As far as I know, all the children were paid to perform on set.
	But I definitely think that that was...
	Well, I was very outspoken about the cuties thing at the time.
	I think I did two interviews for the Daily Wire about cuties.
	But I think that that was heavy grooming, over-sexualization of children, but definitely wouldn't fall under human trafficking.
	Unless the children weren't paid for work, which I'm sure they were.
	And there's also questions there about whether they were trying to normalize.
	I think what people found so problematic is they were trying to normalize something for broader culture, but also kids who might watch it.
	I mean, it was kind of the way they treated Britney Spears when she was young and the way they marketed her and the rest.
	It had an unsettling undercurrent.
	What I used to talk about with Cuties was that, like you said, normalization, but that sexualization of children.
	But why that is so completely dangerous.
	And by the way, that movie could have been made not in a way that it sexually over-sexualized children.
	That was just a poor director.
	And I said that at the time, and I tried to reach out to the director, like, let's do this in a way that doesn't over-sexualize children, because it's a story that actually should be told.
	It was just poorly directed.
	And the thing that really terrified me about that specific case was that the CEO of Netflix kept doubling down, which was so cringe and so gross, like, after horrible public outcry.
	But they felt it in the public.
	Because they faced, I think, 800% loss over that one specific instance.
	So people voted with their dollar, that's for sure.
	But I think what's so dangerous in the case of cuties, when you have young children dancing in suggestive ways and pitting their crotch and the camera zooming in and those suggestive clothing.
	I mean, we're talking very young children, if folks don't remember that clip that was going around on social media, is when you go over to your uncle's house and he wants to sit down and watch that movie.
	And he wants to have you mimic the actions.
	You're watching something on Netflix.
	Nothing seems wrong.
	But that's a sort of grooming and coercive aspect that we see when you're normalizing things for very young children.
	Also, we have to make sure we're being very careful about differentiating with children.
	And this is a tale as old as time, not a new phenomenon, between entertainment and reality.
	We're not teaching children the difference between entertainment and reality.
	A big thing came up with Cardi B, WAP, a music video.
	I don't know if you gentlemen are...
	I want to tell you how I learned of it and what WAP meant.
	This is how ignorant I was.
	When I first heard about the outrage, I thought they meant that it was the ethnic Italian slur that they were getting upset about.
	Then I had to have a child of mine explain to me, What it meant and what on earth was going on.
	And then I was like, I'm glad you told me.
	We'll have this discussion.
	But it was eye-opening.
	And then the rest is...
	I'm going to block it out of my memory.
	But yes.
	WAP.
	Not the other one.
	Cardi B herself was embarrassed to have her daughter nearby her when she was singing the song.
	Yet she wants this song being sold out there to children.
	Well, you know, we get into that fine line between freedom of speech, you know, freedom of art.
	You know, if I try to police every artist, then we get into a spot where comedy will be censored, art will be censored.
	Under no circumstances want to censor Cardi B. In fact, ultimately, because of her past that she's been transparent about, I'd like to have her out here speaking on behalf of survivors of human trafficking and really reaching that demographic.
	I think she'd be great at it.
	I think it's really, especially on folks that maybe lean a little bit more right of center, to just remember, like, we can talk about freedom of speech, freedom of art, because you absolutely know it's going to come for us next, so we better stand up for people.
	And by the way, this is like a tale as old as time.
	They were talking about this stuff with Marilyn Manson when Columbine went down.
	They were talking about this stuff with Two Live Crew, you know, back in the day.
	Back in the day with Taxi Driver.
	I mean, I didn't appreciate it at the time because I only thought...
	But we have to be able to differentiate for our children the difference between entertainment and reality.
	And also, if we were going to go down that path, we'd start hitting like...
	What do you call it?
	Video games.
	Stuff like that.
	Like Grand Theft Auto or something.
	Sorry.
	I have expressed...
	I have explained...
	I have illustrated my ignorance on a number of issues.
	When I look into them, I look into them.
	This was...
	Oldest kid was on TikTok, and WAP was one of the things that was trending on TikTok at one point in time.
	I taught my daughter something.
	I taught my daughter one of the terrible ethnic slurs, and she taught me something, which neither of us needed to know, but I'm moving on.
	Viva, are you a boomer?
	I've been called a boomer.
	I'm into these things.
	I know these things.
	I learned about it.
	It makes for good discussions.
	I don't hide these things from my kids because they're going to see them anyhow.
	But yes, we've all learned.
	Go ahead, Barnes.
	Speaking of independent platforms, I'm just monitoring the live chat at feverbarnslaw.locals.com I saw the cup.
	You chose to also open up a locals page.
	Can you talk about why you went to that platform in particular?
	Yes, so much.
	This is my favorite, my other favorite topic besides smacking big tech in the rump because they're disgusting cretins.
	So I chose Locals because it's a free speech content creator platform.
	You know, I've been on there for a long time.
	I started out more as a fan of Bridget Phetasy, Michael Malice, Dave Rubin.
	I'm somebody that's been watching the culture move from a distance long before I was out here speaking in a public way as a survivor advocate.
	I've been seeing what's going on with big tech, and I'm so glad that I trusted my gut and my instincts.
	I started a community on Locals.
	It's eliza.locals.com.
	Am I allowed to call him Barnes?
	Yeah, everybody calls me Barnes.
	Of course, of course.
	I thought it was a funny comment.
	I just wanted to bring it up.
	Barnes goes crazy when people call him Barnes.
	Nobody knows him.
	I'm joking.
	It's a total joke.
	Everybody calls me Barnes.
	Viva's dad humor.
	Oh, sorry.
	I didn't mean to talk to you.
	Locals and why.
	I just love the fact that it's free speech.
	I love the fact that it's designed for people like me.
	I love the fact that Everybody Cool has come over there.
	The features that they're adding to it is absolutely incredible.
	And actually, I think the thing that I like about it the most, and this is probably my most underrated thing I don't talk about the most, I met my best friend there.
	I met a couple women that are friends that I've actually met in real life, even during the global pandemic.
	Another friend from a community and his wife last year around this time in Las Vegas, even during the global pandemic.
	So I've met people that I really like just within the different communities because we're like-minded.
	I like the fact that there's no trolls.
	There's no BS algorithm.
	I like the fact that, well, they're completely 100% no child sexual abuse material.
	So I went hard on them, told them, look, you're going to have to deal with this, so you might as well make a hard line now.
	So they went ahead and made that decision early on to make it so that it would be very difficult to post child sexual abuse material.
	So that's really important to me.
	But it depends, because I'm local both as a fan and as a creator.
	So I'm in different communities as a fan.
	I like the fact that I can contribute to some people that I really want to see succeed, regardless of what happens with big tech.
	That's really important.
	Actually, I need to throw a couple bucks.
	I think my subscription to your locals community is up.
	So it's like, even if I can't contribute...
	Even if I can't contribute to the conversation, I like to contribute and just say, hey, here's five bucks.
	I hope this helps you buy a cup of coffee along your journey.
	I'm not a woman of means necessarily, but just to pass some of my favorite content creators a couple bucks to see them get things going.
	There are other things too.
	It makes me feel good that when Twitter finally crumbles because of their horrific decisions, we'll all have a backup.
	Actually, Robert, you brought it up earlier, but this is where I don't understand how Twitter big tech is ever going to escape liability for these issues.
	They have algorithms in place.
	They can detect words.
	They can detect images.
	They can detect hyperlinks.
	They can detect everything.
	How do they possibly get away with allowing certain videos to remain up for any period of time, let alone viewable?
	How do they allow them to get up in the first place?
	And the other thing is this.
	We know how technology works.
	If something's up for an hour, it's up forever.
	Six years is just adding insult to injury to the victim.
	But Robert and Elijah, maybe you can help me.
	What's the justification for ever allowing it to be up for any extended period of time when it's so easily identifiable through the algorithms?
	I mean, in my view, they're deliberately making money off of it.
	It's that simple.
	Now, I do think there's a secondary, broader...
	You know, what unites the interest of Jeffrey Epstein?
	It's a certain, you know, now called transhumanism.
	You know, Alex, AJ would go on a long rant about it.
	But if you go, if you combine, you look at like Silicon Valley and you look at Hollywood and you look at the common sort of matrix mindset where they see human beings as chattel.
	Where everybody's going to be trafficked at some level one way or another down the road.
	In their mindset.
	They don't see human beings with consciences, with souls, with rights.
	They see them as something to extract something from.
	Whether by coercion or by any other means.
	And it's a common cultural mindset.
	You read these biographies of these big tech billionaires and they're just not, you know, they're sociopathic autists.
	You know, is what they're more like, in my view.
	And Epstein is the perfect individual embodiment of it, because he just took it to its logical consequence.
	Every form of abuse of a human being you could employ, he was a champion of, whether it was in his scientific quasi-eugenics research, or whether it was his little ranch in New Mexico, or whether what he was doing in Palm Beach, New York, or that little island of his.
	So I think that's what kind of...
	Yeah, I would actually agree with that.
	I mean, just to piggyback off that a little bit, pretty much all of these big tech platforms, when we talk about child sexual abuse materials specifically, almost all of them use Microsoft PhotoDNA that was designed in 2009 to scan and detect for child sexual abuse material.
	One of the major problems with Microsoft PhotoDNA is that The image or video already has to be in the overall system from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
	So if it's a new video, like in the case of John Doe 1 or John Doe 2, it wouldn't have been caught because it wasn't already in the system.
	Well, it would have been caught on the criminal side, but it would have been caught quite clearly on the visual imagery side in terms of nudity.
	And I don't know what else went...
	What they used to detect.
	So right now, as we're sitting here right now, Microsoft PhotoDNA is constantly scanning Twitter using artificial intelligence looking for child sexual abuse material.
	In the 15th transparency report, Twitter stated that 91% of child sexual abuse material on their platform is detected through Microsoft PhotoDNA and other proprietary tools.
	It's the same with Facebook.
	It's the same with Pornhub.
	It's the same with all these platforms.
	Google.
	So they're all using Microsoft PhotoDNA, but Microsoft PhotoDNA has its problems.
	It's an older technology.
	They've done some updates, but generally speaking, and I've become friendly.
	I don't want to say friends because I don't want to, like, overshoot our friendship or relationship, but I've become very friendly with the person that designed it for this specific purpose because I want to learn a little bit more about it.
	You know, it just...
	It's not something that's working at the scale that we're using.
	It was designed in 2009.
	It's not working at the scale that these platforms are running at.
	And so that's where we are reliant upon sexually abused children to report their own child sexual abuse material, survivors of human trafficking, survivors of sexual assault, survivors of revenge porn to report their own Abuse material.
	But the problem is, even once these survivors report, the companies still don't take it down.
	And I think that's where Barnes is going with this, is that if I misgender someone, or if I call someone the B word or the C word, or if I talk about, you know, the vaccine or something, I can get torn down immediately.
	It's almost immediate detection.
	And I know you guys know what I'm talking about.
	It's like Parkinson's law of big tech is that they go after the low-hanging fruit.
	Oh, someone calls them the R-word, the R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.
	Call them that.
	Boom.
	Instant, instant.
	Everything else, well, geez.
	We don't get the instant social, the virtue points, brownie points, virtue signaling, gratification for doing it because, you know...
	Everyone hates it already.
	So leave it up in the background.
	Nobody cares.
	But go after the people who use naughty words to talk about politicians and whatever, and you get the virtue points right away.
	It's because Big Tech thought that survivors would never get to a point where they're ready to sue.
	And my message to Big Tech is we're here.
	We're getting these lawsuits together.
	And we're not going anywhere.
	They're just going to keep coming and coming and coming.
	And that grip, that vice grip is going to get tighter and tighter from other countries like Russia, India, Nigeria.
	It's already kicked out Twitter.
	We are going to see this happen.
	I mean, France just put a new thing on Twitter today for hate speech against Jews.
	It's just going to get worse and worse and worse for these big tech companies.
	And of course, now the situation with President Trump and whatever's going on there.
	But when it comes to survivors, we're not going anywhere.
	I keep saying these big tech platforms are about to get Pornhubbed because we've seen class action, class action, class action against Pornhub.
	Twitter should expect the same fate.
	Yeah, and I think the other aspect of all this is what's coming out from...
	Some of the early developments in these suits is that big tech systematically removed also.
	Not only did they not...
	Use the same methods and mechanisms they could to remove objectionable material, these problematic aspects, where they do so in other spaces, so we know their capability and capacity to do so.
	But they also deliberately removed the safeguards they publicly promised they would utilize.
	There's no reason for someone under 18's Facebook page to be publicly accessible.
	No.
	In my view.
	There's no reason for that information to go up into Facebook's algorithm to be spit out to anybody who wants to buy it.
	And they promised many parents that that wouldn't happen in many capacities.
	13 in some states, depends on the jurisdiction.
	And Massachusetts' case shows that they haven't obeyed any of it.
	No.
	Because they care more about making money than they do about protecting children.
	Facebook is an ad for human traffickers.
	But that's because, and across the board, I mean, it's not just in the way of child sexual abuse material, or like in my case, a domestic human trafficking survivor.
	We're also seeing cartels.
	Groom and manipulate folks from across the border.
	And traffickers, smugglers.
	This is on Facebook.
	It's not like it's just on the dark web or something that we can't access.
	This is just out here and open.
	I've seen posts in different countries, predominantly Arab-speaking countries, where they're selling Nigerians just up like a paid-for ad.
	Selling Nigerians up as a paid-for ad.
	I have the screenshots and everything on Facebook.
	Of course, those are in different countries.
	It's too big.
	It's too big.
	It's a hot mess.
	They're doing it on purpose, and they wanted to make it as addictive as possible, and it worked, but now it's going to come home to roost.
	They thought that they were going to be bigger than the government forever, and it's not going to shake out that way.
	The wild thing about, in Facebook's case, because they own Instagram as well, is that Facebook's actually designing currently A 13 and under kids only Instagram platform.
	You want to talk about tone deaf and just not...
	You've got to be kidding me.
	Those are the types of things that I like to focus on as an advocate.
	How can we get Instagram to not do that?
	Facebook and Instagram to not do that?
	How can we make sure that Twitter...
	Is held liable for these two young men suing them and for distribution of child sexual, knowingly distributing child sexual abuse material?
	How can we do that?
	And by the way, just not for nothing, I always say that I always leave it up to the big tech companies to fix this on their own in-house before the government steps in to do it for them.
	That's what I don't want.
	But I'm not sure that they'll be able to.
	Actually, a question I had.
	From your stream with Malice, did you know Malice from childhood?
	Did it seem that way?
	It did seem that way.
	Then I thought I heard something about high school.
	But you did not know Malice before modern times?
	No.
	No, actually, that's a good question.
	Before modern times.
	Before Common Era.
	Sorry.
	I know I look good for my age, but I'm not a vampire.
	I haven't lived in any other time period.
	No, actually, I met Mal.
	I mean, that was the first time that Malice and I had ever had a conversation was that stream.
	But we knew each other.
	So I'm a part of Malice Locals community.
	Okay.
	Now, what was Malice's take in the sense, or what is Malice?
	I mean, being an anarchist, there's probably inherent conflicts of where he thinks the resolution should come from.
	Did he give an answer on that?
	Robert, he gave an answer.
	I'm not sure we can repeat it here.
	We can repeat it.
	This one is not going...
	Eliza, what did Michael say was his solution for this?
	Am I allowed to say it?
	No, we know what Malice suggested the solution was, and it was at the end of a barrel, and it wasn't at the end of a barrel of whiskey.
	I mean, that was what Malice's solution was, is let community take care of it.
	Yeah, so he's got a father's solution to the situation.
	Yes, but the problem with that is that it often, it doesn't end, I mean, this was part of the problem of Reddit back in the days when they went on the doxing, let's go find out who this person is.
	They got it wrong as often as they got it right with disastrous consequences.
	So that solution is no solution at all to me.
	I mean, it's an everyday practical solution in limited circumstances.
	But one of the other points you're making at Facebook, the other utility is the things they used to have to do in person.
	In other words, going to concerts, going to events, going to malls, finding people.
	They no longer have to do in person.
	That's part one.
	And part two...
	They don't have to be even geographically in the same location.
	Part two is they can disguise their identity now.
	And Facebook is facilitating this to a great degree.
	While they'll take down any page that they really think is Donald Trump trying to pop up anywhere, they can't seem to take down human traffickers who get flagged as human traffickers repeatedly who are disguising their name and identity in different places.
	It's another reason why, like I said, Facebook was almost designed, some people would say so, at least as a subcomponent of it.
	For the purposes of facilitating human trafficking.
	Put it this way.
	If it was designed to do so, they have done more to make it that reality than anybody.
	And Robert, Eliza, someone actually posted this comment.
	I forget when it was, Robert.
	It was one of the highlights from our last stream, the stream before our last stream.
	Facebook literally started as a tool for raiding women's attractiveness.
	It started as an angry university student raiding in a humorous and not-so-humorous way.
	Other women.
	So it's not even ironic.
	It's like they were telling you from the beginning, but no one was listening.
	And I include myself in that crowd at this point because, I mean, I don't like Facebook.
	I hate it for the political purposes.
	But from that aspect now, I truly appreciate they were saying out loud from the beginning what the purpose was.
	And then, you know, that's where it went.
	Well, and this may be a good transition.
	Talking about Facebook and Instagram, both of them have done extreme damage to the psychology of young women in general.
	I mean, young women that grew up on social media, and the more they were on social media, you're talking about rates of self-harm that have increased five-fold amongst women in that generation, my daughter's generation.
	So, I mean, like I said, everything they're doing is they're creating the vulnerabilities that then can attract human traffickers and then facilitating the means by which human traffickers can employ that to their advantage.
	Yeah, 100%.
	I think that a lot of this comes back to families and communities.
	That's one way that we can just get involved now in taking personal responsibility for our own communities and making sure that we make ourselves accessible to survivors, make sure we're making ourselves accessible and likable to young people.
	I'm not going to tell people you've got to go be a part of a church, but faith-based communities that are...
	Have an open, because I know there have been a decent amount of child sexual abuse, especially in certain faith-based communities, but just that sort of, and I think actually in a weird way, this probably, and I'd have to talk to him out, so I don't want to put words in his mouth, but in his mind, it would come back to a smaller.
	A smaller community unit where we're all kind of taking care of each other and where we decide as a community sort of how to handle these things.
	But that is how when we're there with children, when they're not being raised through Facebook, when they're not being raised through social media, when they're not being raised by watching Pornhub on their own, trying to figure out what's normal and what's not normal, we can have those open conversations with them.
	Are there any particularly useful guidelines out there for parents?
	In other words, places or organizations that say, here's what to look for, here's what to watch out for, here's what to monitor, so on and so forth?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Both Canada and the United States have really good resources available.
	For any age, that's the cool part.
	Everything from little cartoons on internet safety to all the way up to late teens.
	Once again, the National Center for Missing and Disappointed Children has great resources.
	The Blue Campaign here in the United States is specifically something that the government puts out.
	It's called the Blue Campaign.
	It has basically all the information you'd ever want to know.
	I think it's Canadian child What's it called in Canada?
	Canada, I have to see.
	It's funny because I work with them on a lot.
	I work with them on a lot of things and now I can't remember their names.
	I get asked the obvious question because bleu, for anybody who doesn't know, means blue in French.
	Your last name has nothing to do with that organization?
	I mean, like, as a chosen last name or a chosen...
	The Canadian Center for Child Protection has amazing resources.
	And for United States and, like, you can definitely go check them out, too.
	But the Canadian Center for Child Protection.
	Blue is my favorite color.
	And I am French-Canadian.
	A fourth French-Canadian.
	Okay.
	And now, by the way, someone said, not someone, it was, here we go, Legal Beagle.
	Who is not legal.
	Be an active parent.
	Now, I know the answer to this question because I saw your answer on malice.
	What is your recommendation to parents as to how to deal with this?
	With human trafficking or making sure that you're a step ahead of your...
	What advice do you give your sister for her kids?
	Well, actually, that's a good question.
	In my sister's case, both of the children have severe autism.
	So in her case, my suggestions would be a little bit different than for everyone as a whole.
	But when you have kids that have autism in that way, they're both nonverbal.
	So making sure we're really conscientious and careful with who we're leaving our kids with.
	Because if they were sexually abused, they wouldn't be able to talk about it or tell or really show in a way that...
	Other children would.
	So in my sister's case, when she puts my nephew somewhere, like school kind of, she has access to beaming in at any time with cameras.
	And that's just a good way to sort of, you know, the way that they live stream, she can look on her phone, say, okay, what's my nephew doing or what's my son doing?
	And she can check in at any time.
	So if he was being physically abused.
	Mistreated or sexually abused, she would be able to see.
	That's a pretty good way of keeping it, that it's not happening.
	But making sure that you know who your children are with, making sure you know who your children are, where they are, and also just making sure you're having open conversations with your children.
	If you think it's too soon, like I said, there are cartoons that start very, very young for children.
	And if you can at all restrict How much time they're spending online and make sure you have their passwords, their information.
	And also, if you think your kids are not smart enough to go behind your back and have secret messaging apps, secret channels to go through, trust me, if a teenager or child can figure it out, they will.
	So stay a step ahead of your kids.
	And also, if your child can have someone in their life that they could confide in, if they wanted to send a nude image or video to someone else that they don't know on the internet, that they have that safe adult that they can talk to.
	So it could be a teacher, a school counselor, a faith leader, anybody, a coach, somebody like that that are in your kid's life.
	And also...
	The busier that your child is with things that are really good for them, the less likely they are to probably be contacted by a predator.
	Election Wizard said, even when served with a warrant by law enforcement, many social media giants are slow to act and resistant to cooperate.
	Immunity does wonderful things for people and companies.
	Unless they're a January 6th defendant, and then they'll send their bank information by wire the next day.
	It's cynical.
	It's difficult to not compare the treatment of one aspect of law enforcement to the treatment of another.
	And I hate doing it because you don't always want to reflect and say, but what about it?
	It shows you their capacity.
	They have the full capacity to monitor these things and stop it.
	I think it's a perfect thing to compare it to because quick as hell to move on one thing, but when it comes to child sexual...
	Also, too, one thing we didn't really talk about is that the whole reason I even fell into this was because my former abuser had trafficked me through Instagram, which is owned by Facebook, and I found once I joined Twitter, because I'm relatively new on Twitter...
	Three profiles that were made by my former abuser to traffic me and I could not get Twitter to remove them and Jack Dorsey follows me on Twitter.
	This is before I started my whole crusade.
	I'm still trying to get Twitter to remove profiles that were designed and ran by my former abuser to traffic me.
	They said no on one of them.
	They said we're not going to remove it.
	Two of them they removed.
	One they said no, we're not going to remove it.
	I can't get them to remove it.
	They'll move quick as hell if it fits them politically.
	But here I am begging them, like, hey, my former abuser made this.
	I don't know what he's using it for.
	He could be using it to traffic other women.
	I don't know what is going on in the DMs.
	I don't know how this profile...
	I know it was designed for nefarious purposes.
	They move warp...
	Operation warp speed, if you call somebody the R word.
	Who was it, Robert?
	You'll know the name.
	Was it McConnell?
	Or someone said the FBI will spare no resource to go after the January 6th rioters.
	They went through social media.
	They went through facial recognition.
	They were, you know, busting down the wrong houses in Alaska.
	Who was it that said they have endless resources to pursue this?
	I forget who it was in Congress.
	Well, it might have been Chris Wray, head of the FBI himself, or Nancy Pelosi.
	But they have the techniques, they have the tactics, they don't have the willpower.
	Because, in my view, many of them are profiting from it, happy to profit from it.
	And some of them, I mean, is it really a big coincidence that Bill Gates was best buddies with Jeffrey Epstein?
	You know, so, you know, you can take that where it wants to go, but some of us don't think that's purely coincidental, at least in a certain way.
	It's very corrupt.
	It's a whole hot mess.
	They, once again, the FBI, same thing as big tech.
	As soon as they get their eyes set on something, they spare no expense.
	They, they, I honestly, I can't withhold them.
	That's why I always, because I'm not really big on the government.
	Malice and I have very similar views on.
	A lot of things.
	Everything but religion.
	I'm more religious than he is, to my knowledge.
	But, you know, that's why I try to encourage folks.
	Like, we can be proactive about this on our own and not wait for the government to do it, not wait for the FBI to do it.
	I also don't never encourage vigilante behavior.
	And I always encourage the proper channels.
	But I'm not waiting for the FBI to do this.
	I'm not waiting for...
	The government-grant-funded organizations to try to be out here and educating people.
	That's why I booked these podcasts, because I like people to hear information that they might not hear somewhere else.
	But yeah, the FBI is a mess.
	They're all involved.
	I can't with all of them, to be honest.
	Robert, you're going to be able to do probably a hush-hush.
	I don't think you've done one on this, but these...
	These platforms that are set up in order to trap the individuals, which end up being run and funded and supplied imagery by the individuals who are there to allegedly catch guilty individuals.
	These FBI sites on the dark web that are there to catch the CP peeps, who are themselves actually the ones providing it?
	When does...
	FBI people are caught.
	I think just last week or this last month involved in illicit activity in this precise area.
	And unfortunately, government people tended not to be the most reliable people in this space.
	Unfortunately, a lot of the people that run foster care agencies do a terrible job, in my view.
	Like every space, Barnes.
	Yes, yes, that's true.
	Some of the child protective services people are the worst.
	I've still got some bitterness-related people.
	I've almost never dealt with a child protective services person I would recommend, sadly.
	I want people to separate out.
	Government Child Protective Services and these private shelter organizations.
	Private shelter organizations are fantastic and top-notch, extraordinarily resourceful in ways that people think, I can't leave for this reason, I can't leave for that reason, I can't leave for a third reason.
	It's all been anticipated by these private shelter organizations to get you someplace safe, to get you healthcare, to get you education, employment, to get you transported.
	We find all types of anything that your abuser took from you.
	I'm telling you, give a chance.
	Give these organizations a chance.
	We'll work miracles.
	People don't understand.
	I could be...
	I'm very resourceful.
	I'm very, very resourceful.
	It's my whole job to help people get their life back together.
	And I managed to tweet at the same time.
	All while I'm doing it.
	All while I'm doing it.
	On that note, let me just do one thing.
	I want to see what your shirt says.
	That's not the right one.
	No, hold on.
	Not this one.
	Okay, there we go.
	Politically Homeless will work for change.
	Okay.
	That's good.
	Very good.
	You know whose shirt this is?
	This is a Bridget Phetasy shirt.
	Ah, that makes sense.
	It's a tank top, actually.
	Yeah, it's a Bridget Phetasy tank top.
	I did her show, but I'm a fan of hers.
	She's like the queen of nuance.
	She's an amazing woman, and she's on Locals.
	Yes, she is.
	I fell in love with her on Locals.
	Yeah, she's just an awesome woman.
	I wanted to support her.
	I think that's what else is cool about Locals is you just get to really sort of fall in love with content creators.
	But then, you know, when I went over to her community, like a lot of her fans became my fans and then told her like, hey, you should do an interview with her.
	So I think in a way...
	It's been good for me for networking.
	I've had an opportunity to come in contact.
	You gentlemen wouldn't have necessarily been in my purview or in my circle, but I think because of that local thing, it's helped me out a lot because mainstream media won't really touch me.
	Sometimes they'll talk to me like Fox or NBC a little when it fits their agenda, but generally speaking, mainstream media won't touch me with a 10-foot pole.
	The way the mainstream media establishment press reacted to the implications of Pizzagate were always interesting.
	You could totally disagree with the theory of a pizza restaurant without recognizing the underlying that D.C. is one of the highest per capita areas of missing children in the country.
	Maybe that's coincidence.
	Maybe it's not.
	And specifically trafficking black and brown women.
	Let's not miss that piece.
	But I think, you know, when it comes to that, so Pizzagate was a little bit before my time.
	Or should I say PG?
	I don't know.
	I don't want to get you guys in trouble.
	You're going to lose your channel!
	Sorry, Viva.
	I think it's sort of a common thematic aspect that the media doesn't want to talk about what's behind certain curtains.
	They'll discuss the Sandusky case once it came out.
	But there were stories of Sandusky going back decades.
	And once again, part of the reason is he was using foster care facilities for it.
	There was a juvenile judge who was implicated in that.
	You know, there's another juvenile judge recently implicated in Wisconsin in this.
	You know, it's not as people who have these abusive tendencies seek out positions of power over the most vulnerable children.
	I mean, if that's- We saw how the media was running cover for Epstein.
	We've seen in Canada and Quebec, we have our own scandals involving the church and involving...
	You have Peter Nygaard in Canada.
	That's a hot mess.
	That's a case that's coming up.
	It's really bad.
	And Pornhub is MindGeek Canadian-owned company.
	Yeah, Canada has their own set of troubles, trust me.
	But I think, you know, I'm grateful for the time frame in which I stepped in because I stepped in after the whole Epstein.
	And it's kind of like nobody could deny it anymore that human trafficking was a problem.
	Now I'm in the phase where post-PG and post-other group that was kind of like the PG that got labeled with the conspiracy.
	I'm sort of post all that where it's like, okay, we know human trafficking is happening.
	Let's kind of like start talking about it.
	Because continuing to ignore or over-sensationalize it when we've been collecting these data, statistics, and facts, like everybody's like, oh, I can't believe that there's child sexual abuse material on Twitter.
	I'm like, we make a public report, like it's on there.
	Blog that lives on their platform, on their blog, and also on the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
	You can see over 65,000 child sexual abuse material reports in 2020 alone.
	So we don't need to over-sensationalize it or talk in a conspiracy theory realm.
	But I think that they tried to diminish...
	The mainstream media has been the least helpful.
	Of anyone when it comes to this.
	You want to talk about, first and foremost, they over-sensationalize everything.
	So every image that they have of human trafficking is a little white girl with ropes on her wrist or something.
	I'm a trafficking survivor.
	Well, maybe I'm a cherry pick example, so let's not even use mine.
	In the United States, we're not seeing a lot of ropes on the wrist, chains on the wrist, duct tape on the mouth.
	So right then and there, the mainstream media has been, when they actually do publish a story about it, they're already using imagery that's not backed up with statistics and data.
	But then it's like they just want to focus on groups that are labeled conspiracy theory and diminish the problem further.
	Like the PG thing, I don't know what was going on there, but those emails are weird.
	There's nothing else to say.
	We've talked about this extensively.
	Whether or not you think it was in the basement, you know, it was not in the basement of Common Pizza Shop, but what was going on in those emails was weird.
	We talked about it with Pozo.
	Weird as hell.
	I mean, there's nothing else you could say.
	I don't know if it had anything to do.
	I mean, nope.
	I've never even talked about this before, so I guess this is like breaking.
	I have absolutely no idea if it had to do with children, but it was either drugs, children, firearms, something nefarious going on there.
	Listen, you can read the emails.
	It's something nefarious and horrific was going on there that I feel that the American people deserve to know about.
	Just look as an example for people.
	Abusive...
	Priests that were protected by the church and the media and the political establishment for decades and decades and decades.
	So we know of their capacity to do so and their willingness to do so.
	And the reality is when they hear this topic, they fear where it might go.
	They fear whom it might implicate.
	And so they shut it down and demonize it and try to label it a conspiracy theory or something else.
	Now in that capacity, when you...
	Started doing this.
	What was your biggest surprise, both negatively and positively, at the reaction you got from different parts of the world?
	In the last year?
	Yeah.
	Over since 2020?
	I've been, I think the most, gosh, there's been so many amazing things.
	It's like, actually, honestly, it's been a really moving and very powerful experience.
	Like, I never saw this coming.
	I think it's been amazing for people from all around the world to say, wow, I didn't know this was happening in the United States.
	Thank you for educating.
	Thank you for educating me.
	Especially a lot from like the MENA regions specifically.
	They've been like, oh, we didn't know the United States had this problem.
	I think people are excited to hear about the information.
	I think people are excited to kind of get to know a survivor a little bit more because now they get to see me do a bunch of podcasts.
	They get to see me tweet.
	They get to see me have fun with my friends and wear different shoes.
	So they're getting to know a survivor in a way.
	I think that's been fun for people.
	And to sort of break down some of those stigmas like, oh, we all have to be like these crying in the corner like that we can never be awesome people.
	I have a sense of humor.
	So that's pretty cool.
	But I think generally it's just been the compliment of thank you for educating us.
	Some of the negative stuff, I get all the regular stuff thrown at me like, you know, KKK that I'm trying to, they call me KKK, they call me Nazi, they call me racist, they call me bigoted, homophobic, they call me, you know, that I'm not a real survivor.
	They told me that I'm trying to kill sex workers.
	And to be brutally honest, they can kiss my A-S-S-S-S-S-S.
	Well, I mean, on that note, I try to keep it to two hours so that we can...
	No, no, no, no.
	I say that's one good way of winding everything up.
	But now, Eliza, where can everyone find you on the social medias?
	And if you leave everyone with one name in mind for anybody who's watching this who might...
	Be in a situation where they need to contact somebody outside of their immediate circle, the go-to place for anybody who's watching.
	But first, where they can find you, what you're up to now, and an entity that can help.
	Yes.
	You can follow me at Twitter until I get banned.
	It's at ElizaBlue, at E-L-I-Z-A-B-L-E-U.
	Local is my favorite content creator platform in the entire planet.
	And actually, tonight, gentlemen, after this...
	I'm going live for the very first time.
	My first video.
	I finally got it enabled.
	So I can go live.
	So after this, I'm going to go live.
	My very first video.
	So if folks want to go over and subscribe to my locals, it's eliza.locals.com.
	And then you can be a part of the conversation.
	I don't care if it's only two people there.
	It'll still be my first time.
	So I'm very excited.
	If you have a question, you can come ask.
	Then I'll also be speaking at FreedomFest 2021.
	So that'll be really cool.
	Amazing speakers there.
	I'm really looking forward to that.
	That's at the end of this month.
	Say that again.
	FreedomFest?
	FreedomFest.
	FreedomFest.
	FreedomFest.com?
	Yeah.
	FreedomFest.com.
	And then for folks that want one thing, all you need to do is just throw human...
	Trafficking into your Google search engine and right there automatically you'll pop up the National Human Trafficking Hotline.
	Data, statistics, information, ways to get help.
	You can text the Human Trafficking Hotline.
	All from that, it'll be the first thing that pops up.
	Like right at the top, like a warning.
	So if you just type in human trafficking, that should be the first thing that pops up.
	But if you really need help, reach out to the National Human Trafficking Hotline.
	It's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
	They can help you if you're a survivor of past or recent trauma.
	So an advocate will pick up the phone.
	And if you have a question, if you need help, and as always, if you see something that's an immediate need, contact your local law enforcement.
	All right.
	With that said, everyone in the chat, thank you for coming.
	Thank you for tuning in.
	I hope this was insightful and meaningful.
	Share it around if it was.
	Eliza, Robert, stick around.
	We'll say our proper goodbyes.
	But everyone else, thank you very much.
	And you know where to follow, Eliza.
	Go.
	I think you'll have more than two people tonight.
	I hope so.
	Yeah, come over to my locals.
	Godspeed with your first live chat vocals.
	I've screwed everything up.
	Live chat locals.
	And we will thank you all.
	I mean, thank you all and stick around.
	We'll say our proper goodbyes.
	Thank you guys for having me on.

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