All Episodes
June 23, 2021 - Viva & Barnes
02:04:00
Sidebar with Jack Posobiec - Viva & Barnes LIVE!
| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
May have been one second early.
And let me just go see who it was that suggested that Viva is always late.
How dare you?
Here we go.
Rick Verger, Viva Fry is set to be at least one second early or late today.
Okay, you know what?
You made two mutually incompatible predictions.
Therefore, I disregard that prediction.
Everybody, this is going to be one heck of a sidebar.
First of all, let me just go and make sure that these standard Fs are in the chat.
Good.
Yeah, Stacey Noogle, we got here.
We got a triple F from Eric MC.
Tonight's sidebar is going to be...
They're all doozies, but this is going to be a doozy doozy.
Jack Posobiec, for anybody who doesn't follow him on Twitter, you should be.
Entertaining, edgy tweets, but above all else, some...
News that tends to break earlier and be more reliable than most of the people in mainstream news.
The one thing I am becoming increasingly fatigued and unsurprised by, it's par for the course when the media does not like somebody.
Immediately painted as right...
Alt-right, whatever, whatever, whatever.
I was reading Jack's Wikipedia page.
I was reading James O 'Keefe's.
I was reading my own Wikipedia page.
It's just par-for-the-course, reflexive attempts to discredit somebody.
They always bring up certain scandals, the pizza, I'll say pizza clôture, which is, you know, the French crowd is going to get that one.
But the pizza stuff, they bring up these stories as if one story, one element.
Is enough to write off what is otherwise more consistent journalism and reporting than anyone in mainstream media.
And we're going to get into these things, but when the media wants to demonize somebody, they'll find that one tweet, they'll find that one photograph of somebody with somebody who's bad to say that person's terrible.
But then, you know, when other famous...
Loving or beloved politicians give eulogies at other very bad people's funerals or historically questionable people's funerals.
Oh, you know, there's always an excuse for your allies and condemnation for your enemies.
I see both of the gentlemen are in the back of the house, so we're going to get this one started sooner than later.
But what do I say?
Standard disclaimers.
No legal advice.
Superchats.
YouTube takes 30% of the superchats.
If that bothers you...
I understand that.
You can support Robert, Barnes, and I on vivabarneslaw.locals.com.
Super Chat is not a rite of entry into the discussion, but I do my best to pull them up like this.
McAfee used to say he had a kill switch to release info upon his death, so keep an eye out.
Yeah, the big news of the day is McAfee ended his life today, apparently.
Probably one of those individuals where no one's going to suspect that he was done in by the government because the government probably had a vested legal and economic interest in keeping McAfee alive.
So maybe a bit of a different circumstance.
But yeah, apparently he took himself out in a Spanish prison after his extradition was approved.
Yeah, where was I?
I was in the midst of the disclaimer.
So, super chats.
I'll do my best to get to them.
If I don't get to them and you're going to be miffed, don't give them.
I don't like people feeling miffed.
Chat, you know, keep it respectful.
It's the internet.
I know how it goes.
Occasionally, I'm going to accidentally bring up a totally inappropriate chat because I can't control where the chat ends sometimes.
So if I do that, it's a mistake, and forgive me.
What else?
We're also live streaming on Rumble, so you can check us out there, and they allow comments.
So Rumble is a place where people go when they want to go somewhere else.
Okay, with that said, this is going to be amazing.
I got Robert in the house.
I see Jack.
I haven't tested their audio, but I think it's going to work.
I'm going to bring up like this.
I think everyone said that they like this format more than this format.
I think we all agree on that.
Yeah, you know what?
Let's go back and let's test the audio.
Jack, how you doing?
Hey, what's going on, guys?
Really excited to be here tonight.
Or my computer might be on mute.
Let me see here.
Try that again.
Hey, really excited to be here tonight, guys.
Super happy to be on the sidebar.
It's phenomenal.
My computer was on mute, so I'm the idiot tonight.
Robert, how are you doing?
Good, good.
All right, Jack.
So this is going to be good.
Everybody who's seen these sidebars, we like to start early.
And from what I understand of your history, we're going to start like ancestrally early in your life to understand who you are and how you got to be who you are.
Okay.
The elevator pitch for anybody here who may not know who you are.
Elevator pitch before we dive into it.
Yeah, elevator pitch, pretty simple.
Spent some time in China for about two years after college.
Wanted to figure out what was going on over there.
Learned Mandarin.
Learned how international business emerges and sort of interfaces with the Chinese system and the People's Republic.
Decided I wanted to do something for my country with that.
Joined the military, first as an intelligence analyst, then later an intelligence officer.
Then when sort of the MAGA movement got started, 2015, 2016, I started posting on social media about politics and drawing from my background there.
Started to eventually get offers from sort of more independent media.
And by about 2017, I was given an offer to...
I said, hey, do you want to come do this full-time?
You know, I wanted to give it a shot, and so here I am.
How old are you?
I'm 36. Okay.
And now, Robert gave me the prep, but I already knew something of your history.
You're of Polish descent, but what generation American are you?
That's right.
So I'm third generation Polish.
My family is all farmers and soldiers all the way back for even, you know, the parts where it wasn't Poland.
We didn't have a Poland for 120 years.
And then sort of in the Krakow area thereabouts, you know, not exactly Krakow, but, you know, tiny little, literally, I've been back to the village.
It's like one.
One road and then just a bunch of dirt roads off of that that go off of it out there in rural Poland.
That's not too, too far from the Ukrainian border.
And then, interestingly enough, my wife, though, is actually an immigrant herself.
So our sons, we have two sons now, they're sort of first generation and fourth generation in an interesting sense.
And where's she from?
Oh, and she's also from Eastern Europe.
So she's from Belarus, which is one of those newly formed independent republics following the fall of the Soviet Union.
They used to call them the breakaway satellite countries.
We used to call it East Poland back in the day, but then a little thing happened called World War II.
And now it wasn't part of Poland anymore.
You know, I used to make this joke, which I say about my wife's family, for people to get an understanding of what it's like on the Eastern Front.
So I say, her grandparents were born in Poland.
She was born in the Soviet Union.
Her sister was born in Belarus.
But they're all from the same town.
Precisely.
Now, have they always been in the Philadelphia area?
Or what was the immigration like for your parents?
Yeah, so I was born just outside Philadelphia.
And then my family on my dad's side was all Philadelphia area.
Now his direct family, my father's grandfather, who was the one who came over, he ended up having some sisters that moved to different parts of the United States.
We've got a few in the Chicago area, the Detroit area, a lot of poles up there, of course.
And then my mom's side, that was up in Boston, actually.
So I've got a huge, huge family contingent up in Boston.
And we are thinking about doing Fourth of July up there, as a matter of fact.
All right, that's a great town to do it.
They have some great musicals to celebrate.
It's not the same Boston it used to be, but...
Jack, we always do the childhood.
How many siblings do you have, and what did your parents do, and what was your childhood like?
Oh, okay.
So I have one younger brother who is two and a half years younger, almost three years younger, who is completely different from me.
He's actually not talkative very much.
I'm sort of like the stereotypical extrovert, and he's like the stereotypical introvert, where he's got a lot going on inside at any given time, but he's not.
Really as open with it.
Whereas me, I overshare.
I'm always talking.
I've got a huge mouth.
Everybody knows that.
And so as far as my childhood, you know, growing up, you know, we started out, I would say, working class, then sort of moved to middle class as my parents started going up in their jobs.
My father worked at, you know, it's funny because nobody really asked me that kind of stuff.
My father worked at a psychiatric hospital for about 30 years before he retired.
So it's Narstown State Hospital in Pennsylvania.
I feel like the guy out of There's Something About Mary, we're like, there might be a moment here.
Was your dad a psychiatrist?
No, he's an RN.
But he's working in the psychiatric ward for three decades.
Oh, the psychiatric hospital.
The whole hospital is a psych hospital.
And actually, his mom, so my grandmother, my Polish grandmother, also worked at that same hospital.
I mean, that was a huge employer for the area where we're in.
If anybody's from the Norristown area, which is just a couple miles outside of Philadelphia, people know that that's a huge employer.
It was a huge employer up until about the late 80s, early 90s, when they started to shut the entire thing down.
So actually, the shutdown of...
The mental health system in the United States actually was something that I got to witness from a very early age and really start to ask questions about from a very early age.
I can remember going to my dad saying, Dad, where are the people going to go when they shut down all these buildings and they send everybody home?
They're going to put them somewhere, right?
He just looks at me and said, Jack, they're going to go out on the street.
They're just all these people are going to end up on the street.
And, you know, you look at some of the stuff we see today, you look at the homeless crisis, you look at some of the drug crisis that have gone on.
And part of it is, to me, I just wonder, is this something that that system that we used to have that could have been, you know, could have, you know, and obviously, you know, with its flaws, certainly had its flaws, like any system.
But is this something that has been exacerbated by the shutdown of those public facilities that we used to have?
So I saw that at a very early age.
My mother.
Actually works in pharmaceuticals.
She's a reproductive toxicologist.
She's someone who has been published many times.
Um, she's a, you know, she's, so she's a scientist, essentially microbiology, um, could get you into more of it than that.
Um, I won't name the specific company because we don't want too much doxing going on, but, um, but she actually, she is planning to retire, I think at the end of this month anyways, I guess it really doesn't matter that much, but, um, has, you know, really kind of taught me the, um, just.
A lot about science and life sciences and biology at an early age.
I remember doing, you know, take your kid to work day, stuff with her.
And she would explain, you know, how this all works.
I remember PETA used to always show up because, you know, they did some, you know, they had lab rats and rabbits and things.
So PETA would come up and always be trying to attack people's cars who worked there.
They couldn't even have a decal of the company.
So they had to have these sort of surreptitious parking lot stickers and stuff so you could actually get in and out of the company parking lot.
But one interesting thing also from my childhood, so we lived in the town of Norristown.
And it had been a great town, working class town from the 1940s was really when it had its boom period.
But it was in the late 80s, early 90s that crime really started to envelop the town and crime got really, really, really bad up to the point where by the 1990s, the mid 90s, I mean, there were shootings going on.
There was...
A public library that used to just be a couple of blocks down from where I grew up.
And so that was my thing.
I was the kid who was like, hey, I want to go to the library.
And I'd bring a wagon with me, just one of those big wagons that you pull.
And I'd walk down the library with my mom or my dad, and I'd fill the entire thing with books.
And then, because they told me, they said, well, this was the five-year-old, six-year-old logic.
Well, they said, if I can...
Get a book for a month, then I want to get as many books each time as it takes me to read in a month so that I can diminish the amount of trips that I have to take and make it more efficient.
So I would have an entire wagon full of books that I would get everything, literally everything under the sun that you could think of from this library.
But with the criminal element, that library used to get...
So when they opened it up to homeless people...
Then the homeless people you started to, you know, they were doing drugs in there or, you know, outside of it.
Then there were a couple instances of homeless people fighting in there.
And then one pretty bad instance made a lot of news where...
You know, one of the homeless guys actually stabbed one of the other ones in the stacks up right next to where the bathrooms were, which is right next to the children's section.
So as you can imagine, my mom was like, all right, not going to the library anymore, you know?
And so that was something that came up and things got really bad.
I mean, we had, you know, Jamaican drug dealers across the, you know, across the alleyway from us.
And, you know, you kind of grow up in an environment that you learn.
Like, hey, you know, you don't go down the street.
You don't go on that corner.
Why?
Well, that corner is controlled by so-and-so.
So this is a corner you can go on and this is safe, but there's certain parts you want to avoid because of, you know, just that whole concept of corners.
And, you know, growing up to me, that was just, hey, that's what life is like in this town.
We got out in 1996.
We moved to a more, I guess you would say, traditional suburban area, and things were a lot quieter out there.
You know, I do remember just a couple years after I left, they turned the town of Norristown into a sanctuary city for illegal immigrants.
And a few years after that, I remember actually writing an op-ed in the local paper.
You can go back to like, I think it's like 2004, 2005.
And it's like, you know, a local resident says, do not do this.
It will lead to disaster and ruin for the town.
The hospital would be shut down because you're forced to provide emergency services for them.
All these different things.
And here we are.
And about 10 years after that, maybe 15 years after that, so the hospital, the main hospital in Norristown, where I was born, Montgomery Hospital, was torn down.
And there's now a vacant lot in the hospital where I was born, that space.
And we drive through every once in a while.
You know, my wife, and of course, you know, she was born in the Soviet Union.
So, you know, I don't really have anything to complain about.
But again, I'm not complaining.
It's just my, you know, it's just where I come from.
It's just what my childhood was like.
And, you know, hearing gunshots and, you know, seeing criminal activity going on and having police go around on a daily basis, nightly basis.
And of course, since we lived actually very close to that hospital, just one block away from it.
You know, of course, we were hearing a lot of the sirens on a regular basis.
So, you know, that was my childhood, you know, just a couple, again, a couple of miles outside of Philadelphia.
And you can look up Norristown and the crime is pretty bad right now in terms of that.
But, you know, kind of seeing that the last gasps of that town and seeing how it was dying, it made me wonder, you know, why did this happen?
Right?
What forces conspired to make something where there's a town that I have good memories of from when I was really little turn into what it became by the time we got out and then when I was in high school into what it is now and, you know, sort of realizing that this stuff That happens on a very local level actually is something that has national ramifications and has, in this case, you know, when you look at like NAFTA and different things, it's something that actually had international implications.
And so, you know, obviously I couldn't know that at the time, you know, but we look back at it now and every once in a while I'll kind of drive past that and, you know, the streets that seem so big when you were so little are actually much smaller now, but you just, I don't know, there's always going to be a part of my heart that's very sad.
For what happened to that town and just has a piece of like, you know, I always wish I could have done something or wish that I could do something today to help with that town, to help to root out the corruption that's going on there.
And I think a lot of this is economically driven.
And then you have people who are at the local levels who realize that, you know, they get caught in a bad situation.
So they become marginalized and then they turn to corruption and they turn to these schemes like.
Like allowing it to be a sanctuary city, mass illegal immigration to overflow because they're just looking for numbers to come in and they're not sure what else to do.
And it's actually a microcosm because there's other towns in that part of Pennsylvania that are thriving, that are doing very, very well.
And it's just this one that's completely overlooked.
And Robert, you'll appreciate this.
It's actually the county seat is Norristown.
So that's the county courthouse is there.
That's where a number of high profile trials have been had.
Bill Cosby did his trial there.
So it's just hilarious that all this is going on in the county seat.
Nobody cares.
Politicians look the other way.
The locals look the other way.
The governor looks the other way.
And you go down a couple more miles and you're in Philadelphia and it's 10 times worse.
Well, I mean, it really describes, it's sort of a broader story from the 70s forward about what happened to the large parts of the working class north.
It's basically Bruce Springsteen's Atlantic City song that describes the sort of slow, steady devolution of going down in Atlantic City.
And my father was actually born outside Philadelphia.
His father was an architect who died when he was very young.
In Philadelphia.
And what's interesting is Philadelphia is kind of, I mean, Charles Murray chose to use Fishtown as his example of the declined working class white American.
So my brother, like I said, he's a little different from me.
You know, he's kind of nuts.
No, I love him though.
He actually moved to Fishtown and was living there for a couple of years.
He just, just a couple of weeks ago moved out of Fishtown.
What's amazing is I went there for the Democratic National Convention in 2016, following the conventions from the Republican one in Cleveland down there.
And what was striking was two things.
One was that here you have the oldest working class community in America, continuous working class community in America, that was starting to become hipsterized.
I mean, like about half of the Fishtown were young hipsters.
Yeah, so that's the Northern Liberty section is still more hipsterized.
But if you get up to like Port Richmond, it's still a lot more working class.
And Port Richmond's got a ton of Polish, actually.
Absolutely.
In fact, you saw that when it came time for the riots, because it was that part of Fishtown that decided to organize themselves to make sure that parts of the riots this past summer did not reach their neighborhoods.
And of course, it freaked out the media.
Oh, I showed that video.
I remember when that was going on.
Yeah, I called my brother.
I said, and if anybody hasn't seen this video, it's sort of the...
You know, the working boys, the union boys out of Fishtown saying, you know, don't come around here.
And they're walking around.
And there's a lot of the same guys that went and defended the Christopher Columbus statue down in South Philadelphia.
And, you know, I sent that video to my brother.
I said, hey, Kevin, have you seen this thing?
And he goes, have I seen it?
That guy owes me 20 bucks.
I mean, this was where Rocky came from.
This was that mindset, that mentality, that really the defeat of the working class in Philadelphia was the broader story of what was happening in the working class north that sort of birthed Trumpism, in part.
But in that same sense now, this is probably a rhetorical question because you're Polish, but was your family Catholic?
Of course.
Yeah, 100% Catholic.
All the way back.
Jack, what- Were they religiously observant or how, you know, because that's the part that's the very- Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, we're, you know, mass every week and grace before dinner and, you know, prayers before bed.
And that's how I'm raising my kids now as well.
You know, and even with my kids, I'm trying to introduce, you know, my three-year-old, I'm trying to teach him to do his prayers in Latin a little bit, you know, kind of get him a head start there because- You know, I do think that the Catholic Church has had its problems, but I think a lot of the problems with the Catholic Church of when they've been trying to turn towards modernity as opposed to sticking with the traditions that have established them for so long.
Jack, one quick question.
Your last name is Posobiec, right?
Not Posobiec?
So, well, you know, since we're talking about this, you know, in the Anglosphere, I usually use Posobic.
I actually talked about this with Candida Owens last week when I was on the show.
So I usually just say Posobic, right?
Because that's a much more Anglicized kind of version of the name.
But in Slavic, you wouldn't pronounce it that way at all because Polish uses a completely different pronunciation system.
So the C...
Was that would actually be transliterated as like a TZ kind of sound.
And so instead of poso bic, actually in Polish, you would pronounce it posobiec.
And so a lot of people, when they came from Eastern Europe to the United States or other parts of the Anglosphere, they would add that TZ.
They could see like a Horowitz or Dershowitz.
It's that TZ sound.
So I sort of was given this choice of like, all right, well, do I want to try to change it?
My family never did.
Nobody ever has.
I said, you know what?
I'll just ask people to say Posobiec.
Leave it like that.
But what's funny is that when my wife met me, because she's from that part of the world, she looked right at me and she said, oh, Posobiec, it's great.
It's fantastic.
In your book, Citizens for Trump, you describe the shocking awakening of the beginnings of wokesterism at a place like Temple University was.
Before that, where did you go?
Elementary school, high school?
Was that local public school?
Which, by the way, at Temple University, that's Mark Lamont Hill.
I've known that guy.
Yahoo, I've known him for about going back almost over 15 years at this point.
Got to be almost 20 at this point, actually.
Man, I'm getting old.
But yeah, elementary school.
So elementary school, high school, that was all Catholic, right?
So Catholic grade school, that was tied to.
But in a sense, there's also this perception of collapse and just hollowing out.
So every school that I went to prior to college is now closed, right?
Every single school that I went to from my elementary years, so I went to one school for two years, that school closed.
We moved to another school in the suburbs, that school is now closed.
The school where I went to high school had been open for almost a century out there in Norristown, it's now closed as well.
They consolidate it.
You see this in part because so many people, they're not putting their kids in Catholic school anymore, but you also see this in part because people just can't afford it the way they were able to in the past.
They can't afford it because everybody knows, of course, Catholic education is not subsidized by your tax dollars.
It's not free, quote-unquote, the way public school is.
So for my parents to send me to those schools, it was a hardship for them.
And it's something that I didn't really understand at the time.
But they wanted us to have that kind of upbringing.
They wanted us to have that moral underpinning as well as the educational underpinning.
And so that's what we went to and that's what we did.
You know, if anything else about those schools, you know, high school, they say, like, what'd you do?
So, you know, play football, did track and field, but also, you know, I was totally, you know, this is sort of like the, you know, like the didn't fit in one of them, one mold or the other, because I was also...
On the broadcast team, so I did the morning news every single day for all four years when I was in high school.
I was always doing the morning news there.
I loved being that guy and talking about what happened.
So the breaking news game for me is something that started very, very, very young and having fun with it and trying to make it more interesting for people.
And also...
I did, you know, I did drama clubs.
So I was in plays.
I did musicals.
I did choir.
So I was in, you know, we would do mass for the students, you know, for the entire school.
And I'd be up there in the choir singing in front of people.
So, you know, that's always been a part of my formation.
And it's sad to me that those schools aren't around anymore.
But you're starting to see Catholics now.
I'm putting things together where they're making non-archdiocese schools, and not to get too much in the nitty-gritty of that, but it's essentially independent Catholic schools that are set up on a private basis.
They're doing the classic education.
They're getting away from the hierarchical controls of it all.
And there's some really, really interesting things going on there.
Jack, an interesting thing that I find whenever it comes up is anybody who has served in the military or served for intelligence, On the one hand, it builds credibility and clout, for lack of a better word.
But on the other hand, it always builds suspicion in people.
Yeah, right?
Before we get into the suspicion part, because it was the same thing with Joe Kent, it always comes up.
And we always see the accusations in the chat.
But first of all, you did military service at one point?
What's your military service background?
Because I know you have some.
Yeah, so I mentioned briefly that I joined as an intelligence specialist, so that means I was an enlisted guy, went up through Damnec for my A school and C school, did Great Lakes for the Navy as boot camp then.
After serving a couple years as that, did a few tours in Asia, then did a deployment, one-year deployment to Guantanamo Bay in the human intelligence cell there as an interrogator analyst.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Jack, Jack.
Hold on a second.
You were in Guantanamo Bay as a human intelligence...
I forget the word you just said.
You were in Guantanamo Bay.
I was too.
Yes.
All right.
We could spend a lot of time on that, but we won't.
How long did you do that for?
What was that like?
Is it a traumatic experience?
And what were you guys doing there, if you can say?
Yeah, well, I mean, obviously I can't talk about anything I specifically did while I was there in terms of any of the, you know, direct operations, but I was a part of Joint Task Force Guantanamo Bay serving in, you know, like I said, human intelligence, human intelligence cell, also known as a J2X there.
I could say we performed detainee operations in terms of attempting to collect information from Those intelligence potential assets that were there.
As far as what it was like, it's a lot more like a sitcom than people realize.
It's definitely not what the media depicts of it in terms of Guantanamo.
There are times where it gets a little wild.
There are times where it gets...
You kind of sit back and you're like, wow, is this really happening?
But a lot of the times it's more like...
People are fighting over what channel they're allowed to watch or who's playing PlayStation 2 at this time or another.
This guy said something to me while we were playing soccer out in the yard.
That guy said something to me.
So that started a fight or whatever it is.
People bringing in contraband, etc.
But it's really, interestingly enough, it's kind of where I really became clued into the idea of fake news.
We didn't have that word for it back then.
This is 2012, 2013.
We would have journalists would come in.
There was this one, Carol Rosenberg from the Miami Times.
She would always come.
I think she's with the New York Times now.
I don't think she's with the Miami Times anymore.
She would come down and there would be something going on and it would be like a rumor.
There was this one rumor that somebody had smuggled in a copy of Fifty Shades of Grey and that a bunch of the detainees were reading it.
It was just completely unfounded.
It's one of those things where it's just like an island rumor.
Nobody knows what's going on.
We call it an island, by the way, even though Guantanamo is technically a peninsula because we do not...
That's a joke straight out of The Simpsons when they go to Monster Island and they say, it's not really an island.
Technically, it's a peninsula.
That's really funny, actually.
But because we're cut off because of political expediency and political issues between the US and Cuba, there's no running water from Cuba to Guantanamo base.
There's no electricity.
So all the electricity there has to be self-generated, mostly through coal, by the way, even though, of course, under Obama, they put up these big wind turbines.
I remember asking one of the engineers when I came in, I said, wow, there was huge wind turbines.
How much energy are you getting out of those things?
It's like about 3%.
It's like about 3% comes from those, you know, these massive, incredibly expensive breakdown all the time, wind turbines, but the rest is just all coal fired.
Which is actually, by the way, the point, the original point of having Guantanamo as a base.
It's the United States' oldest overseas base since 1898, the Spanish-American War.
And it was used as a coaling station or a refueling station for naval vessels as they were conducting tours and patrols of the Caribbean Sea.
So they would stop by, you know, in Cuba because it was very accessible.
So they would just keep a stockpile there and then they would go throughout.
That was prior, of course, to the revolution, Castro, et cetera, et cetera.
And so we had this, and of course, none of us were allowed onto what you would consider, I guess, mainland Cuba.
So because there's no, even though under Obama and Kerry, they had sort of like a thaw in the relations because there was actually no, so you require, and Robert, you would know this, I'm sure that there's no status of forces agreement between the US and Cuba.
So we had no really legal protection going into Cuba.
Yeah, there isn't really anything nearby anyway.
The closest city is like 40 miles or 50 miles or so.
And so, yeah, we were still kind of confined to the base.
We used to sell these t-shirts down there that said, you know, Guantanamo Bay, close, but no cigar.
Now, what inspired you to go into the Navy in the first place?
Oh, China.
For me, it was all China.
I'd already gone to China.
I'd already lived there for two years.
I was working at the Shanghai American Chamber of Commerce and got another job in international consulting for U.S. companies doing business in China.
And I learned Mandarin, learned a ton about the CCP, learned so much about what was going on.
This is 2006 through 2008.
And just realized that this was this massive juggernaut that nobody...
In the United States, really in the West, understood.
Other than the people that were over there just getting absolutely, ridiculously rich off of this stuff.
And that's something that, of course, is very tempting.
You say, hey, just stay here, make money.
Who cares?
What the repercussions are?
Who cares about the human rights abuses?
Who cares about hollowing out the US manufacturing base?
Because come on, man, you can make some money off of this.
Go work for Disney, go work for Amway, doing all these different things.
And actually, at one point when I was there, I had the opportunity to meet, yeah, very briefly, but got to meet Xi Jinping, who at the time, so I'm living in Shanghai.
And working for this US firm that's based there.
And he was the party secretary for the city, the municipal party committee of Shanghai, which essentially means he's the head, the party boss of Shanghai, which, of course, higher than the official mayor.
And at that point, they were in preparations for the Shanghai World Expo of 2010.
And we were there with some U.S. companies that were interested in putting up, you know, putting up some representation.
Microsoft was actually one of the ones who was with us.
And so we're over there for a planning meeting.
It was kind of down by the shipyards as well.
So at one point, we finish up our meeting, and then we get held in the room.
They say, well, yeah, you can't go out right now.
You can't go out right now.
I said, what's going on?
I said, well, the boss is here.
I'm like, what do you mean the boss?
And then we look outside.
In this sort of, you know, more common area.
And there's Xi Jinping, surrounded by just this massive entourage of people.
And he's a pretty tall guy.
He's a pretty tall guy for China standards.
and that is just towering over them, trench coat over his shoulder.
And just the way he carried himself and the way he talked to everybody, just in the back I mean, he was kind of already tapped for the Politburo, so you knew he was on that fast track, but we didn't realize that he was going to go.
From the party boss of Shanghai to the head of the entire party that quickly or as quick as he did.
And it's really just testament to his ability to kind of have that leadership power and that influence within the CCP.
So, yeah, Xi Jinping at a pretty young age.
I'm really curious about Shanghai because, I mean, people forget.
I mean, Shanghai was a fascinating city in the 1940s.
It was a great film, I think, maybe titled Shanghai with John Cusack, but, you know, where you had the American Quarter and other quarters and the rest, and then you go back to the 1940s.
I think it was in a, maybe a Harrison Ford, Indiana Jones film, maybe this old 1920s Shanghai is portrayed.
Yeah, so in Indiana Jones 2, which is actually the prequel to Indiana Jones 1, Temple of Doom, it opens up and they're in Shanghai.
It's actually a place called Obi-Wan's, so it's like a reference, a Star Wars reference, and that's 1920s Shanghai, and then he sort of meets, he has like a, there's like a young boy that he meets there and goes on the adventure to India with him.
But yeah, that Shanghai by and large now is gone.
It's just completely gone.
Some of the facilities are there.
Some of the structures are still there in terms of the old British buildings, the old British banks and the trading sectors and the customs houses that used to be on the main river of Shanghai called Pudong.
Excuse me, the Huangpu River.
And that area is called the Bund.
And so you can see the buildings there.
But of course, the communists took them over and kicked the British out in the 40s.
Then all of those sectors, the American sector, the British sector.
I got way into the history of Shanghai when I was living there.
It is absolutely fascinating.
Only a tiny bit of it left, but one of the still standing areas is actually the French concession.
So the French concession still by and large exists.
You can go there, you can see the French influence, you can see the architecture.
And one reason for that is actually that the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party that we all talk about, was actually...
Founded in the French concession of Shanghai.
And so a lot of the early party bosses were living in mansions, right?
In mansions that were, you know, that had originally been owned by wealthy Frenchmen and wealthy French traders and merchants who are living there.
And funny enough, so, and the CCP is actually, their 100-year anniversary is coming up next week.
It's going to be July 1st.
And so they have this, you know, they have this whole big setup where like, here's the building where they met and it's sort of this like low one-story building in downtown Shanghai.
And then right across the street from that is this massive...
Nightclub, bar, music venue, just huge entertainment district, literally across the street from where they have this huge monument to the founding of Mao's CCP.
And I always looked at that street, and that's called Shintendi, which means new heaven and earth in Mandarin.
And so it's actually a great kind of microcosm for what all of China is now, where they say they're communist, and they pay lip service.
To that communist heritage and that communist background.
All the trappings are communist.
But when you actually go there, you say, man, this thing is...
It feels like there's a lot of capitalism here, and it feels like there's a lot of trade and commerce going on.
So what's the deal with that?
I have a couple of friends who live in China, some with more business than others, but they basically said it's like corrupt capitalism and not communism, the way things work in China for business.
But one question ahead, do you speak Mandarin?
When did you learn it?
And if you do, am I getting in trouble for bringing up this chat?
No, I'm going to talk to you.
I was at the University of Hawaii at the University of Hawaii.
It's East China Normal University.
And I spent two years studying Chinese.
And after I was in the United States, I also studied Chinese.
I did a Chinese study.
So yeah, I was living in Shanghai and working in business, but then also studying at East China Normal University.
And then later when I got back and joined the U.S. Navy, one of the things I did was work as not only a China analyst, but also a Mandarin linguist.
So I had the qualification for that.
So I tried to maintain my Mandarin.
And then, of course, the military being the military, they sent me to Guantanamo for a year because that makes sense.
How long did it take you to learn Mandarin?
Is it proclivity is the word?
Are you able to learn language quickly or do you have some history with Mandarin that we don't know about yet?
Oh, no, no, no.
That was just kind of like, you know, I was in college and I kept saying, man, you know, this is in sort of the mid-2000s where, you know, everybody's talking about the Middle East and the war on terror and all this.
But, you know, if you look past that a little bit, it seems like there's a lot going on with China that nobody's talking about.
And, you know, I got more interested in it myself.
And I said, I think China is actually going to be a bigger issue.
Then the war on terror at some point in my life.
I didn't know when that was going to be.
But, you know, looking back 15 years ago, I'm sitting there and this is, you know, Iraq war is at its high point.
You know, the surge hasn't even happened yet.
And everybody is totally focused on that.
And I'm the guy sitting in the room going, you know, I think we should pay attention to China because I think China is actually a little more important than this, like this Middle East stuff.
I don't know.
I mean, you guys.
Seem like you're, you know, pretty busy with that, but I'm just going to go over here.
So I moved to Shanghai, you know, as you do.
And I did my last semester of college there and then stayed for two years.
And so, no, I didn't have any background.
You know, I think I knew how to say like, ni hao and xie xie before I went over and then just immediately started in intense language.
Course while I was there.
So, you know, I was half working, you know, Iban Iban, as you would say in Mandarin.
It's like one half, one half, one half working, one half going to school for about the first four months that I was working there.
And then I had a tutor after that that I kept up with.
Now to what was life like on a day to day basis in Shanghai?
So, you know, there's a lot of energy in Shanghai, and people don't realize that, right?
Shanghai is a very international city, but, you know, I tried to avoid foreigners, as I would say, or foreigners, you know, Westerners, like the plague when I was there.
So there's a bunch of, like, Western enclaves you can go.
There's, like, Gubei, which is, like, a big, you know, Western slash Korean area of Shanghai.
And there's different, like, the Shanghai American School and sort of the area around that.
Uh, which is over in Pudong.
It's kind of towards the airport.
You know, there's a ton of like, uh, you know, foreign executives and they have like all their kids and their families and sort of, you know, like, uh, like gated communities and that kind of thing.
But I was like, no, I don't want any of that stuff.
Right.
I want the China experience.
So I'm going to live in Shanghai.
So I had a, uh, you know, I had a small, it was, it was a one bedroom apartment.
It was about, if I wanted to, I could walk to downtown Shanghai where I worked.
It's about an hour walk if you wanted to, but usually I would, once my Mandarin got better, I was able to ride the subway better, ride the bus, take a taxi, whatever it is.
And it's different, but I learn something every day.
And one thing that was actually kind of interesting was the specific area where I was living of Shanghai.
So it was called Putuo District.
And the actual road that I lived on off of Changning Road was this huge area of Uyghurs.
So there's like this one Uyghur neighborhood of all of Shanghai.
And it just so happened that that was where I had my apartment.
I didn't even know what the Uyghurs were back then.
I had no clue what this was.
So I'd wake up in the morning and I'd be walking down to the bus or walking down the subway station.
As I'm walking there, so there's street food.
Street food is huge in Shanghai throughout all of China, right?
Street food is big.
And yeah, there's lots of great Chinese street food.
There's lots of great, you know, different little like, you know, they would call it like egg pancakes and baozi and different things, like little buns and dumplings and stuff.
But the immediate street that I would walk down had a mosque.
And it was all Uyghur food.
So you had great naan, you had great like hot bread, different veggies.
And so what I would do is I'd walk by and like each person, and it's like for pennies, right?
You know, in terms of the exchange rates, pennies, you know, I'd walk over and I'd say, here's a little bit for you and here's for you.
And I'd get some of the egg bread and I'd heat that up and I'd go to the next guy and I'd get a little meat from him and I'd go to the next guy and I'd get some eggs and get some veggies and put it all together.
And that's my breakfast, you know, it was pretty good.
And then you get on the bus and then you go down.
Downtown, you're working there.
And so, you know, it definitely stuck out like a sore thumb in that part of Shanghai.
But it was interesting because, you know, because the Uyghurs had their kind of like, you know, obviously they're very anti-Han Chinese.
So that's the Han is the ethnic minority in China.
Excuse me, ethnic majority in China is Han Chinese.
And Uyghurs are the ethnic minority.
So they were really kind of like anti-Han as opposed to anti-American.
There was a huge anti-American sentiment in China at the time.
There still is now to an extent because of the hyper-nationalism that's going on and that's really been inflamed by the CCP.
In fact, when I was there, it was much less than it is now under Xi Jinping.
But, you know, you would say that you were American, and, you know, the first thing people would bring up is the Iraq War, or George W. Bush, or, you know, shooting people, you know, this is...
And a lot of people don't understand that that's the perception of America overseas, right?
It's not this sort of like, they're not paying attention to what the politicians are saying.
That's why, you know, when Joe Biden made that comment that he did, or Tony Blinken made that comment he did in Anchorage, that the Chinese ambassador just blew him up.
He's like, that's not you, right?
And so, got along really well with the Uyghurs there.
There was actually, there was a bus bombing.
And they pinned it in 2007 when I was living there.
And it wasn't in my area, but the Chinese authorities pinned it on a Uyghur, and they were pretty sure that he was living in that area.
So I remember when the CCP...
The lake, they call them Guambu, sort of like the Public Security Bureau, would be going around and they were posting flyers all around of this one Uyghur that they were pretty sure.
And then they did that for a couple of weeks and they would be running patrols in the area trying to find this guy, look for this guy.
And they were just, I mean, they were jacking up street merchants, going into the markets, harassing people.
Have you seen this guy?
Do you know this guy?
Et cetera.
You know, and I felt kind of bad for them because I realized that here's, you know, here's a community of people that, you know, this is the guy who sells the golden raisins and he sleeps, you know, and because he runs a street market.
And because the police don't really care about it very much because it's Uyghur, that they would actually sleep out on the street.
This guy, I remember, he had a street merchant.
He had a bed that I guess he brought from wherever it was.
And one member of the family would always sleep there every night so that nobody would steal their wares, steal their different dried fruits and some other things that they sold.
And you could get anything.
I mean, you could get all sorts of like...
Bootleg movies were a big thing there.
I mean, it was amazing to me, the bootleg movie community there and the industry that they had behind it because there would be a movie that would come out in the US.
It'd be banned in China, censored in China.
You'd wake up the next morning, boom, streets of Shanghai right there.
You want to get whatever it is, you got it.
No questions asked.
Any TV show you want, any movie, any language you want, it's yours.
You can go get it, right?
Totally free in terms of that.
But it's always like a wink and a nod.
We're like, the police...
The police aren't going to enforce that.
But if it was something like drugs or something like that, that is going to be taken away completely.
But you'd see the police go walking right up to these bootleg movie.
They had bicycles of it and street dealers and stuff.
Fast forward a little bit to the Wuhan situation, when they were talking about the wet markets.
There's wet markets all over China, right?
Wet markets are normal.
Wet markets are pretty common there.
So you see live animals with You know, right next to or in some part times in cages that are directly adjacent to animals that have just been killed or carcasses or meat of different animals that's going in.
You know, people ask me, they'll say like, oh, Jack, you live in China for so long, man.
Do you ever eat any dog, huh?
Did you ever eat a dog?
And I say, usually I say it's not knowingly, like I never went out in search of it.
But, you know, I'd also sometimes, you know, I was getting something on the side of the road.
You know, you're going to ask the guy too much what you're eating.
So I have not ever knowingly.
Probably one of the big things to wrap that part up was you realize that the people there...
They're like people that you would meet almost anywhere.
Just the average person in China.
They care about their family.
They care about their kids.
They want to succeed.
They're trying to build a middle class.
They're trying to get things going in terms of that.
And really, they just want to be able to live their lives in peace.
You don't see this.
You know, anti-global, anti-world sentiment outside of the party or like, you know, these hyper-nationalist radicals in the youth.
But the average person there kind of gets to an age where they realize like, yeah, we get that the party isn't really all that it's cracked up to be or all that they claim they are, but they're the only game in town.
So that's what we have to work with.
And we're just going to try to live our life and get by.
And that's a big part of just sort of Chinese philosophy.
That's a big part.
It goes back to Confucianism and hierarchical living.
But when you meet the average person in China, the Lao Baixing, you realize that they're good people, they're honest people, they're hardworking people, but they're scared.
They're very scared of their government.
They're very scared of stepping out of line.
They know what it's like when someone gets disappeared.
They know what it's like when somebody makes a comment or says something they shouldn't say or insults somebody who has a position of authority, a position of power.
And these power games, by the way, it's not just like, you know...
The chairman of the entire party.
No, no, no, no.
There's like a block captain for the party that's, you know, we talk about mass surveillance and stuff in the United States and social credit scores and facial recognition.
Sure, whatever.
But in China, the party has had this down to a science for a century now.
They have party block captains.
They have party members assigned a political director for every single what they call work unit of the entire country.
So if you're in an office somewhere, you've got a party director in your unit.
If you're living in a building, if you're living on a block, someone from the party is assigned to your building.
They know where people are working.
They know who's having babies.
They know who's getting married.
They know how much money you're making.
They know what you're doing on a regular basis.
And all that information flows up and up and up.
So the idea of them having the system of informants, the system of spying, the only difference is now it's becoming more digital.
Supply and demand.
The cost of labor in China is minuscule compared to what it is in the West.
It's nothing.
We always say in the West that, oh, labor is your highest cost when you're running a business.
In China, it's the opposite.
Labor is fungible.
It's expendable.
So for them, they can employ these massive armies of people as informants, as snitches, as eyes and ears, and they're all over the country.
They're all over these cities.
24 /7.
And so that leads to people who, when something goes on, they say, "Hey, I want to get involved." If somebody gets in a car accident, they say, "Hey, I have nothing to do with that.
I'm going to walk by." There was actually one time...
There was a video of a baby in the middle of the street.
Cars were passing by.
I think the baby got hit once and then the second time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's hard to watch, right?
And that's hard to internalize coming from the West where we have a completely different value system than that.
But you also have to realize you're dealing with a country where to get involved with something that's not my business means you could be risking your entire life.
You could be risking your livelihood.
You could be risking your family.
You could be risking your reputation for two generations if you do something wrong.
So that is why it's...
Sort of shifted what people, how people will react and remove that sort of initial human reaction to, hey, let's go save this kid, right?
That you would see in many other cultures.
Actually, one, you know, kind of like the weird China story that I do tell that is just an experience that I had was, you know, as I mentioned, I was meeting a tutor after I finished my language courses and one day we're meeting in a...
And I've told the story in other podcasts, but we were meeting up one day in a KFC, because of course KFC is there.
They just call it Kandaji or Kentucky.
They don't do it.
Actually, my tutor asked me, what does KFC even mean?
I don't know what the FC stands for, because they don't explain it in the Chinese translation.
And so we're just sitting kind of in the back of the restaurant.
We're just going over some vocabulary, whatever.
And all of a sudden, over my shoulder, I hear this girl scream.
Young girl just starts screaming.
Not like a happy, oh, we're playing around scream.
Like a scream of distress.
Look over my shoulder.
What's going on over here?
What's the deal with that?
Looks like there's a group of teenagers.
One's a guy, probably about 6 '2", 6 '3", but real skinny.
Very young.
Big hair, all teased out.
Big anime style hair, all teased out.
And he's taken his cup, I guess he had like a soda, like a paper cup of soda, and has thrown it in her face.
And so it's just drenched all over her.
And she's like, what the heck?
And so we all look and we're like, oh boy, it must be some fight.
Hopefully, maybe she'll walk out, maybe he'll walk out, right?
Now, what happens next?
He grabs her and starts punching her.
Closed fist, punching her in the face, then grabs her head and starts slamming it on the table forcefully.
Gets to the point where he actually throws her to the ground, and it looks like he's about to start kicking her, right?
So I'm sitting there going, well, surely the employees of the restaurant are going to get involved and stop this.
This can't go on anymore.
Doesn't happen.
And then I say, all right, well, surely there's a bunch of people that are sitting around them.
There's adults.
There's older people.
Certainly, they'll stand up and intervene and get in between them and say, hey, this needs to stop.
Nothing happens.
They all sat there and they did that thing where they tried to act like it wasn't happening and tried to act like they were just going back to their dinners.
You know, looking at the corner of their eyes without trying to look like they're looking.
And, you know, and I did get up and intervene.
And I was able to physically remove him from the restaurant.
And, you know, as I got back, I actually heard people saying, hey, why are you getting involved?
Because, you know, I could speak a little bit of Chinese at this point.
And I could hear people saying, like, why are you getting involved?
Why are you doing that?
And it always stuck with me.
And I must have had a two-hour conversation with my tutor after that, just trying to understand, trying to comprehend why in a society would you see something like that going on?
Especially in society, which we're told, right?
Communal living, collectivism, it's socialism.
It means society first, right?
The needs of society outweigh the needs of the few, etc.
And so, you know...
What's really going on under the hood in these countries?
And then, you know, kind of realizing that, hey, there's something wrong here.
And, you know, I keep in mind that guy was already, you know, I'm well aware of what, you know, with Polish background, I was well aware of what communism was.
But, you know, to see it in a situation like that on, you know, just in a KFC of all places, right, was something that really opened my eyes to the perverse.
The preferred incentive model that the CCP has imposed in terms of it being an authoritarian state and just the way that people have completely internalized that for so long.
You don't need a public censor.
You don't need somebody out there saying, don't do this, don't say that.
Once you've internalized that, you're censoring your ideas, you're censoring your actions, you're censoring your thoughts, you're censoring your opinions because you know, and this is something that I've talked to my wife about because she grew up in the Soviet Union, so she's experienced the exact same thing.
If you know that your opinion can be enough to get you in trouble, to get you arrested, to get you thrown in jail, but you never know which opinion is right, which opinion is wrong, well, the only way to survive is to never have any opinion, is to never get involved, is to stay out of things.
And that is what those types of authoritarian regimes do to their people.
Well, so, Jack, this is actually probably a good segue to bring it back to America.
And now...
I don't know when you come back from China, when you get into journalism, but when did you get into journalism?
I know you were active with Trump's election in 2016, but when did you start getting into journalism and what transition have you seen in American culture that might mirror or reflect what you saw and what you experienced in China?
Yeah, so I've always been interested in politics.
I was kind of a college Republican when I was going to school at Temple University.
And I was sort of your typical college Republican, dissident kind of guy sitting there saying, you know, these professors are wrong, those professors are wrong.
I actually linked up with David Horowitz at one point, and we held hearings because I went to a partially state-sponsored school, so we would bring in, we actually brought in state legislators to hold hearings on student academic freedom at Temple University.
In 2006, because these teachers are pontificating on politics.
And so I've always been very attuned to those kind of ideas, because I remember getting to college and saying, what's going on?
These guys aren't teaching us things.
They're telling us their opinions and asking us to regurgitate them.
This is ridiculous.
And so I was the one kid who would always be like, I'm going to disagree with everything you say, and I'm going to look up my own sources, and I'm going to write my own reports, not using any of the readings that were assigned to me, but I'm going to do those readings and then do my own.
I'm going to submit all my essays that way.
And so I did that.
And even though my teachers would disagree with me, they couldn't help but say, your work is impeccable.
So I always got top marks all through school.
School was never a problem for me.
School was boring, if anything.
When I was in the military, there were so many times where I'd see stuff that was going on in the world, but I'd had this sort of dual lens of it where I can see what's happening from...
My perch in the intel community and I can see what the media is reporting or what they say is going on.
And I just know it's fake, right?
I just know it's false.
And that was absolutely exacerbated under Obama to the point where I'm like, this is just ridiculous.
You know, what they're doing is completely wrong.
And, you know, when I saw China just becoming so absolutely triumphant.
This is 2014, 2015, building the islands in the South China Sea, in terms of what they were doing in Taiwan, in terms of the takeover of Hong Kong, which at this point, it's basically a fait accompli.
Now, realizing...
And the media would just say nothing about it.
And then when Trump ran, and when he made China such a number one issue for him, I'd never...
I was one of those people who wasn't sure if he could run and win, but when I saw the things that he was talking about, and I saw the way that he targeted China, and I said, you know what?
That's a lot of things that he's highlighting that nobody has talked about.
Nobody's talked about the economic depression in this country.
Nobody's talked about the rise of China.
Nobody's talked about the violence, the crime, the stuff that's going on on the border.
And I said, I got to start speaking out in any way I can because this guy's just right.
He's just right on this stuff.
So I was doing social media and I'll try to make another long story short because I told a lot of long stories here.
But when I was in the military on deployment, I would get bored and I would say, you know, I want to, you know, do something while I'm on deployment.
So I started a Twitter account to make fun of the Game of Thrones TV show and of all things, right?
So I did it very satirical.
It was very humorous, but then, you know, kind of started taking off, getting a following.
And then we started a blog that was associated with it.
We call it the Angry Game of Thrones fan or Angry GOT fan.
And it got pretty big.
We were doing a couple hundred thousand hits a month, and I was pretty happy with it.
But then when the election came into the fore, I said, you know what?
I'm going to steer my social media kind of effort into this direction.
And it was actually at, funny enough, Robert, you mentioned the RNC and DNC.
So I go to the RNC.
That's actually where I met Mike Cernovich.
That's where I met.
Roger Stone, a whole bunch of people that were of Diamond and Silk, a whole bunch of people that were involved in Trump's campaign from the 2016 perspective.
And they said, dude, get rid of the Game of Thrones stuff.
Just go in, do a real...
I met Jim Hofgate, we pundit who was there.
Do a regular Twitter account, your own name.
Talk about this stuff.
You've got great opinions.
And I held an event where a lot of people came and speak.
To speak at the outside of the RNC.
So it was right on the river there in Cleveland.
And I met a ton of these people.
Again, I met Cernovich and a few others.
And they were like, dude, just come out and just be yourself on Twitter.
And I said, that's what I'm going to do.
And so we kind of started the kind of...
Digital Trump online movement there at the RNC that fed into the DNC.
And then it was after the election when my social media had just really, really taken off.
I started to get a lot of offers.
And my relationship with my then-girlfriend, then fiancé, and then later wife was really starting to take off.
And I'd actually been in a pretty high up-tempo.
Deployment unit at the time.
In fact, the first half of 2016 I was I was overseas.
I was actually in East Asia on the deployment for the first six months of 2016.
So that's why I would just go on Reddit or go on Twitter in my spare time and like, hey, let's post some Trump stuff when I was off duty.
And it really just kind of took off from there.
And anyway, to answer your question, I started to get those offers early 2017.
I said, you know what?
I'm going to do this full time.
And I think it's something that's the right move.
I feel like I've been called to do it.
Hey, if I get to talk about China maybe a little bit, that'll be good too.
What's interesting is you bridge sort of three different constructs involved in the Trump campaign in the media spaces between the intel operation and the capacity to understand how intelligence information works and psyops work and how politicized warfare in the information space works.
You talk about in Citizens for Trump how the revolution of the then social media allowed for openings that could get around, that could create its own power structure, its own network outside of the traditional power structure.
Your second book about fourth generation warfare, the critical capacity of sort of merging sort of old Machiavelli Sun Tzu principles with contemporary technologies to create an alternative political network outside of the infrastructure, the institutional infrastructure.
Could you talk about how when you went into the media space, what was sort of your goal and objective as to how to translate some of those principles into that space as institutional media credibility collapsed in the United States and more and more people?
Wanted independent sources of information.
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
Man, I should have known that Barnes would do the reading, right?
He's doing his homework, as usual.
And I'm still waiting to get Barnes' take on John McAfee, but I'm sure we'll get there at some point.
He got Epstein'd.
He got Epstein'd.
There was a chance I was going to defend him once he got back to the States.
Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, because it was a tax thing.
So he had a lot of intel in a lot of places.
We'll see if what he said was right or not.
He claimed that he had a kill switch.
But with John, if you know John, what's true and what's not true, God bless.
But I don't believe he suddenly got suicidal overnight.
Wow.
By the way, if you see what I did there, I redirected your hard question back into a question on you and then got away without answering the question.
And if I wanted to, I could have completely followed up and then not even answered your question at all and just talked about John McAfee and then left that out there.
But that's an old human trick.
Really, the goal was always to sort of...
It was almost counter-reporting in some senses, because in 2017, and really this became the narrative throughout the Trump administration, that people, you know, and it didn't, and this is what the media always got wrong.
They would call us the pro-Trump media.
They said, you guys are pro-Trump, so therefore you're the pro-Trump media.
And I say, no, that's not right, right?
Because there are so many instances where the administration would be doing something that we don't, maybe not personally would agree with, but we would report it because it was still true.
And these were, these are times like the Syria strikes.
Or HR McMaster or various other things that were going on during the administration.
I'm the only guy who ever asked HR McMaster about the Saudi nuclear deal in a White House briefing, right?
So actually asking hard questions when the rest of the media would be going off on all these Russia things and all this other junk.
And I'm like, look, if Russia was involved in any of this stuff, do you really think?
That it would have looked as DIY building the plane while it's in mid-flight when it comes to 2016?
No, not at all.
No way.
This was social media advocacy.
It was building that community that was on in 2016 in a very similar way to the populist energy that I would say is in the ape community now or the AMC buyers.
They see them banding together and forming alliances online.
People, disparate groups, disparate backgrounds, but who come together around one idea and it's this sort of like this...
This 99% versus 1% kind of construct where, hey, we know something and you guys are screwing us over.
You've got a rigged system and we're going to fight back.
So you actually see a lot of those same narratives and the same people who have gone through those economic downturns while watching other people just get richer and richer and then wanting to play off of those energies and wanting to do something about it, wanting to take agency and take action.
And that's why I'm such a supporter of that group.
But when it came to 2017, it said, look, the election's over.
I got to be serious now.
Actually, I did this big thing, I think halfway through 2016, where I renounced trolling.
I said, I'm not going to troll anymore.
I'm done.
I'm not doing it.
And I haven't done it since, actually.
And I said, look, it's become too bad.
You get verified, get retweeted by the president.
He's reading your stuff.
You got to be serious.
Or if you're posting a joke, it's got to be very obvious that you're posting a joke, you're posting a meme, whatever it is.
Because we do like to have fun.
We do like to have humor.
And the media, these guys, they take things so seriously.
And I think it is because they do not get a good night's sleep.
And the way to get the best night's sleep in the whole wide world is with MyPillow.com.
Promo code POSA.
Now available in the US and Canada.
So Viva, just in case you didn't know, you haven't gotten any.
I have a bizarre thing with pillows.
It has to be a thin...
Feather pillow.
Anything that actually protrudes, I can't sleep on.
You take a look on that site, my friend, because I think you will see some stuff possibly in the Geezes Dream Sheets or the Master Stoppers that might be more your speed.
I love it.
Jack, I'm having trouble sleeping.
Do you have any advice discounts for a good pillow?
Right on cue.
But no, Jack, this is an interesting thing.
So you get into the media.
They've got their narrative, right?
And we're just providing the truth, right?
We're providing the true counterpoint to their false narratives again and again and again.
Give you a great example of this.
2018, One American News.
I was with them.
I just started with One American News.
They sent me to Helsinki to the Putin-Trump summit.
It's kind of interesting because we just had the Putin-Biden summit, which is almost an odd event.
But with the Putin-Trump summit, it was boring.
Dude, I'm in the room.
I'm sitting like a row behind Jim Acosta, and I'm so...
I'm bored.
I'm bored out of my mind.
It was pleasantries and happy talk.
And there was some disagreement over Nord Stream 2, but that was kind of baked into the cake.
We knew that was going to come up.
That was obviously a geopolitical issue.
But I'm sitting there going, man, I do not know what I'm going to file in terms of my report for this.
They sent me all the way to Helsinki, but the meeting was barely anything of substance, right?
And of actual geopolitical substance with the exception of Nord Stream 2. But that's at the time.
That wasn't really something that a lot of American audiences were getting.
So, of course, I mentioned it and, you know, I've talked about that and the U.S. Liquid Natural Gas and the Three Seas Initiative and all the other extencies above that.
But, you know, for this kind of push, I'm like, man, what am I going to do?
And then we get out, we go back to the media filing center and I see Jim Acosta.
And he's looking at the CNN camera and he's doing his live hit and Wolf Blitzer and Jake Tapper are over here and they're watching because their show is coming up later.
And he's like, a treason summit was held here in Helsinki.
We've seen treason, treasonous behavior by the President of the United States.
I'm sitting there looking at him like over his camera, looking at him in the face like, Jim, I was sitting behind.
I was like right in the room with you and I'm sitting with you on the U.S. side.
Nothing like that happened at all.
I mean, what are you talking about?
And so, you know, my report then became a report on his report.
And again, this whole view of like a counter narrative to the false narratives that were being presented again and again and again throughout these things, because it's like, well, oh, well, he used flattering language.
Of course he's going to use flattering language.
He's in a meeting with a world leader that he wants to have a positive or at least some type of working, serious adult relationship with.
What's he going to do?
Insult him?
Attack him to his face?
Look at how all that worked for Tony Blinken when he went up to Anchorage and started insulting the Chinese foreign minister.
They call him Tiger Yang, a guy I actually met in 2006.
Dude ate his lunch.
Trump absolutely ate his lunch because he came in there with aggression.
He came in there with demands.
He came in there with this huge moral fervor that he was trying to push.
No, that's not how it works.
That's not how this diplomacy thing works.
And Trump is in there just being a diplomat.
And I don't know what the media's role...
We know what they wanted him to say and what they turned it into.
But that's a great example of something where I'm there on the scene and I'm able to tell people, hey...
This is not what's going on.
This is not true.
And you guys are just making up stuff whole cloth.
And so throughout then, it's just been a series of being able to either find the information, to listen to the real transcripts, to go where something is happening on the ground.
Like when I went to Chaz, did the Seattle thing.
Oh yeah, I'm supposed to be promoting my book, right?
We've got the whole book about that, antifabook.com.
And actually telling people what was specifically going on.
On the ground, in Chaz, with Antifa.
I was going into Antifa meetings in 2016 as well for this kind of stuff before they did the attack on Trump's inauguration, which nobody talks about anymore.
And so finding these stories and finding these motions where the media was just straight up lying and then being able to go in, find out what the truth is, and report it back.
In that respect, I want to bridge into the Antifa stuff in a bit, but in terms of your book about it, and it goes all the way back to Deplorable, which we were both at.
I mean, that's the craziness of that.
But before we get to that...
It seemed like the other utility you had is having an intelligence background, understanding how to approach information, how to identify reliable sources, how to use open source and public source information, how to develop sources, that you've employed a lot of that skill set into your media.
How much was it useful in that sense?
Because it strikes me that most of conventional media, even sometimes aspects of right-wing media, particularly right-wing establishment media, tends to not have that skill set deployed.
They don't know how to look at reliable sources.
They don't know how to look at information objectively anymore.
It's so politically filtered that they just can't assess something accurately, whether it's the Peruvian presidential election or the Polish presidential election.
It's got to be through some polarized filter that they can't just give an objective interpretation like you would an information analyst where the information has to be accurate or it's not useful.
How much was that useful for you in your media space, having that background in intelligence?
Oh, 100%.
But see, one thing that I would actually kind of correct you on a little bit, not correct you, but we talk about this in Antifa book, Stories from Inside the Black Block, because I do talk about being in the intel community and people say, well, Jack, why doesn't the intel community talk about Antifa more?
Why don't they do anything about the violence?
Where's the informants inside Antifa?
Where are the undercover agents going in to prosecute this group?
And it's a, you know, like you guys don't get it.
Most of the people in the intel community are the exact same way as mainstream media liberal reporters are.
They are regurgitators.
They are repeaters.
You know, this was the same type of dynamic that I talked about when I was on campus at Temple University, right?
You get one narrative that's handed down, and then everybody finds, you know, a way to regurgitate it in some, you know, some novel or interesting manner, and suddenly everybody applauds, and then you go on to your next thing.
Nobody's actually looking at the data.
Nobody's actually...
Paying attention.
We go through all these courses about evaluating sources and evaluating data and looking at things objectively.
They call it analysis of competing hypotheses.
There's this interesting story about a country, I can't say which one, but where people are saying, oh, this country must be building some new type of weapons system.
They have all these glass emplacements over their bases.
You know, what is this?
And what type of weapons is this?
Some kind of special force?
You know, we need to be very careful.
And then, you know, they finally showed it to a couple of guys and they went in and said, yeah, those are greenhouses.
They're building, they're growing food for themselves because they're poor and they can't eat.
So they're growing food on base.
Those are greenhouses.
You know, bubble inside the Intel community about these, you know, about these emplacements.
And that's just one example, one paradigm of to show the way that these and their thought bubbles, right?
Not in the like Scott Adams cartoon sense of thought bubbles, but bubbles like in an economic sense, like the housing bubble, right?
You get these thought bubbles and they become panic bubbles, right?
Maybe that's a better way to put it.
They become panic bubbles where, oh, this is such a panic.
We have to be careful.
We have to look out for this.
This is going to be the big thing.
And then...
It doesn't go anywhere.
It turns out it was never real.
You were always chasing phantoms.
But what the intel community and the mainstream media both do is they don't ever sit back.
And this is Iraq WMD is a great example of that, right?
Classic example.
Russiagate, classic example, right?
They don't step back and say, hey, how can we reevaluate our behavior?
How can we check our priors?
How can we actually figure out what went wrong?
No, they just find another.
Yeah, that leads to another, because an old debate all the way back to the beginning of the CIA was there were a lot of people who said it was a mistake to combine the action component with the analysis component within any one agency.
Okay, yeah.
I was wondering about it because you have one agency that does nothing more than follow up on the training you receive that just does analysis that's divorced from any action so they don't have that easy bias that ends up with this huge population that does create the same phenomenon of the media where they basically they don't apply their own standards.
They're like politicized lawyers.
I used to ignore what they're taught.
So I had this joke.
I don't actually think I've ever said this publicly, but I always try to work it in.
And I've tried to find a way to word it on Twitter, but it's not...
And I don't like doing Twitter threads.
I'm classic Twitter.
If I can't say it in 140 or less, I don't like it.
And if I need more than 280, it's like, why are you even tweeting it?
But it's the story of...
So I had this other collector that I worked with, and that's what you call human intelligence collectors.
We would always say...
You know, we would put up something and say, well, look at this piece of information.
This is very important.
And this actually disputes with what your assessment says here.
And, you know, maybe here's a DIA assessment or FBI assessment or something and what's going on.
And we say, well, look at this piece of information that actually completely contradicts that.
And you'd get a senior analyst would come in or some SES level guy would come by and say, well, that's not credible.
I said, what do you mean it's not credible?
Who said it's not credible?
Who determines credibility?
Did you do any kind of foundational background work on this?
Did you actually look to see whether or not this could be corroborated through...
We have a variety of means.
I don't know if you heard about the NSA or the NGA or all of the different fancy spy tools that we have in the IC to corroborate something.
It's pretty handy, right?
No.
Not credible.
And so we used to joke that whenever something like that happened, we would say that, well, the Office of Credibility has deemed this non-credible.
So we came up with this running joke for years.
I still talk to the guy.
He's still in.
I got out.
We call it the Office of Credibility.
And I say, well, now the Office of Credibility is in charge of the media, and they're in charge of social media, and they're in charge of what you can say on the internet now.
And that's exactly what Viva was getting at earlier when he asked me the question about the internalized censorship, because you see the internalized censorship here in the United States, you see it throughout the West, because the Office of Credibility has now taken over the entire world, and they've decided what things you're allowed to say and what things you're not allowed to say and what thoughts you're allowed to have and what thoughts you're not allowed to have.
Well, the internal censorship is one thing, and you've experienced it more than some.
Then you have the external censorship, which is the discrediting, demonizing, call it pigeonholing, or just labeling.
And so I look up everyone's social media descriptions, the way the interwebs describe people.
James O 'Keefe gets nailed.
A lot of the people we've had on are all described the same way.
And you as well.
So the second you start defying the mainstream media narrative, they start defining you.
In the mainstream media narrative, which is typically by demonizing and calling you the ist or the phobes or whatever.
So one of the stories that came out in the early chat before this even went live earlier today was someone said, ask him about the R asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, Melania sign that he planted or that he was carrying at one of these things to discredit an anti-Trump rally.
I had never heard of it.
So I immediately just started looking it up and I come across A BuzzFeed article, which is citing an anonymous source alleging that you, and I knew a bit about your history, a bit about your training, alleging that you either were an individual carrying the sign in disguise at a rally or had screenshots of texts alleging that you did this.
And part of me says, this is just mainstream media smear campaign.
Another part of me says, you never know, there's false, yada, yada, yada.
For that particular story, and then in general, what it feels like to get...
To get demonized by the media that basically controls the public identity of an individual.
Yeah, well, that story actually came up at a specific time.
The anonymous source on that isn't actually anonymous anymore.
His name's Tim Jainette.
People also know him as Baked Alaska.
So here's the background on it, and Barnes probably knows a little bit of the public part of this, where we had just...
Essentially canceled his appearance at the Deplora Ball because he had been making a series of very abrasive and extremely anti-Semitic sayings in public, going full white nationalist.
And that was something that we had a hard line about when it came to the Deplora Ball.
We said, we don't want any of that content.
We don't want these people to be part of what's going on.
We just want this to be a celebration of Trump and a Trump event.
Give me the opportunity to retract the comments, take it back.
We said, you know, he leaked all these text messages between, it was like me, Cernovich, this chat group, and said, basically, thumbed his nose at us and said, F you.
And we said, fine, but, you know, we're not interested in sharing our platform with you at this particular event.
And as a way to get back at me, when that whole thing happened, keep in mind that he is a former employee of where?
Buzzfeed.
So he went back to his buddies there and came up with this whole elaborate story that actually that thing was something that I had done and all yada, yada, yada.
Funny enough, I wasn't even there when it happened.
I was actually on the road.
I was going to D.C. for a completely separate reason.
I was working that day, heard about that it was happening down at Trump Hotel.
So I tried to get to Trump Hotel by the time that the Antifa protest was going on.
Didn't make it in time.
But somebody, I didn't even tweet it out, right?
There was another guy who was there who tweeted it out, and I later met him and had him kind of tell me the story of what happened.
And then Baked Alaska was able to turn that into, spin this whole story about how I was, you know, secretly behind the whole thing.
And you saw, by the way, this exact same thing happen with Mike Cernovich.
So when Mike Cernovich spoke at Columbia University, and this is back when those sort of like...
2017, you know, shaking out of things was going on after the election.
So before, you know, before the inauguration, then after, immediately after, sort of who's on what side, sort of kind of stuff where I was like, look, I'm a Trump supporter.
I'm a MAGA guy, but I'm a conservative.
I ain't that, you know?
And, you know, when we started drawing those lines, it got ugly.
It got really, really ugly.
And so memes were going on, false stories were going on, a ton of this stuff was going on.
He actually did later come back and admit that in a tweet that I do have archived.
He tried to play it off by saying, oh, I got some bad intel.
Yeah, okay.
Then this also happened with Mike Cernovich when he went up to speak at Columbia.
There was a protest organized against him.
Antifa was members of it.
And there was this sign up that said, I'm going to get it wrong, but it said something like, no Cernovich.
No fascists, no pedophile haters.
And that was the name of the sign, right?
That was up.
And then, you know, I'm sitting at home watching this on Periscope, and people are starting to go, hey, that sign, that's crazy.
That wouldn't happen.
And they go, oh, I remember.
And so because one lie turns to another lie, they say, Oh, I bet Posobiec was involved in that because he was involved with that other one from before, a couple months before, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And this became, and there were even some people on the right, even conservatives who said this, who started going along with it without actually just talking to me.
And later, it came out that the guy who was behind it, his name is Joel.
I can't remember his last name off the top of my head.
The guy who was actually behind it was not only charged, With being a legit, real-life pedophile, he was just sentenced for child porn.
I believe he got something like 30 months.
I can look at this up real quick, but literally just this week was sentenced, and he was actually the one behind the whole thing.
So it's just an example of like, you stay on the internet long enough, and you make enough adversaries, you get accused of everything, and believe me, I've been accused of literally everything at this point.
Well, it's the amazing, it's the wrap-up smear.
Yeah, the wrap-up smear.
Where BuzzFeed reports on it, and then I find a number of other...
In the BuzzFeed article, it was a tweet from one person.
I didn't know who it was.
Another article reports on BuzzFeed.
Another one reports on that.
And basically, you have this tempest of unnamed sources circulating the story just because one person did it.
And it's not because I don't trust BuzzFeed.
It's because BuzzFeed has...
By the way, the very day after BuzzFeed published that article, they published the dossier.
I kid you not.
Joel Davis, by the way.
The guy's name is Joel Davis.
I didn't want to get that wrong.
Joel Davis.
Yeah, the number, it's like male feminists disproportionately end up becoming stalkers.
The disproportionate number of Antifa types, and particularly people that have harassed.
13 years.
I'm looking this up because I'm fact-checking myself.
He was sent, Joel Davis, sentenced to 156 months in prison for enticing a child to engage in illegal sexual activity, 60 months for possession of child pornography, and 60 months for distribution and receipt of child pornography, all to be served concurrently.
He pled guilty January 16, 2020.
The sentencing came down Tuesday, June 22nd, so that's yesterday.
13 years in prison for enticing a minor to have sex.
That was the guy who was behind that thing.
Not Jack Posobiec.
Well, let's do another one here, because this is the one that Cernovich got in trouble for, too.
I'll share my thoughts on this as well, but one of the big accusations is that you partook in spreading misinformation as relates to the pizza clôture, as we say in French.
I mean, what do you have to say?
Before, I don't want to taint the question with my own perception of this afterwards, but how do you respond to this accusation?
Because it's the go-to.
For anybody who wants to discredit you, even if you got it wrong, I'd be inclined to forgive because if we're going to discredit an outlet, an agency, a reporter, because they got one story wrong, well then, anybody watching CNN, New York Times, Fox News, MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, you've got some explaining to do.
But what do you have to say about this one?
Well, the person who has explaining to you on that is Megyn Kelly.
And why did Megyn Kelly on my birthday, December 15th, 2016, go on Fox News in an interview with James Aliphantis, play the video that I had made with the sound turned off, then have her make claims about what I said, allow him to make claims about what I said without playing the...
Actual video itself.
Why would Megyn Kelly do that?
Why would she do it on my birthday?
Why would she put all of these things together without reaching out to me, without having any type of communication with me beforehand, without giving me an opportunity to defend myself?
Play that video with the sound, again, turned off and put words in my mouth that were never there.
People say, Posobiec, why are you so hard on Megyn Kelly?
Why do you always respond to Megyn Kelly?
Because of what Megyn Kelly...
Did to me in 2016 that she has never apologized for, trying to cancel me while she was trying to make the jump from Fox to NBC, and then her NBC show completely flailed out because she's just a horrible person who is completely hollow inside, completely empty inside.
And by the way, I do pray for her.
I really do pray for her.
As a Catholic, as someone who is a Christian who believes in Christ, I pray for her redemption, but redemption has to be something that she asks for, and she has not asked for redemption on this, right?
Went, right?
A buddy of mine and I said, hey, this thing is trending on Twitter all the time.
The place is near the house, right?
It's near where we lived.
Let's go there for a bite and just show people that it's actually a regular restaurant where nothing's going on.
That's it.
That's the entire story.
But then Megyn Kelly decided that she was going to use it to try to make a name for herself by going after a Trump supporter, namely me, kind of a semi-high profile Trump supporter at the time, I guess, and used it to create this entire elaborate thing where she tried to ruin my life.
She tried to have me canceled, never apologized for this, and has created this insanely false narrative.
By the way, funny story.
The Washington Post.
Reached out to me around this time.
And they said, do you have any comment on this?
And I said, yeah.
I wanted to show people the truth about what was going on.
Because when we live in a world of this, the actual quote, right?
From the Washington Post at the time, concurrently, right?
I think it's December 16. I said, I compared it to the Iraq WMD crisis and I compared it to the Benghazi.
You remember the Benghazi video where they blamed the Benghazi thing on a YouTube protest was actually obviously a terrorist attack.
I said, that's what's going on here with this place.
And I wanted to show the truth.
And even the Atlantic, when they did a massive smear, you know, kind of like hit piece on One American News, even they admitted that I had said that to the Washington Post at the time.
But did Megyn Kelly report that?
No, no, no.
Megyn Kelly decided to overlook that.
Why?
Because she wanted to go to mainstream media.
She wanted network.
She wanted to get that shine from NBC.
And she knew that people like me that she could throw under the bus were just a means.
Another step on the stepping stone, another rung up the ladder, and it didn't matter who she took out.
It didn't matter whose lives she tried to ruin because all that mattered to her was herself.
So I've said this time and time again.
Megyn Kelly, she used to follow me on Twitter, then she unfollowed me, but she hasn't blocked me.
It's kind of this weird thing.
I don't know what she's doing.
I'd love to sit down with her.
I'd love to actually have a conversation about what really happened there.
Always open to it, Megyn.
Well, it'll be interesting.
That was back during the time period when, as you note, she thought she was going to be the next Barbara Walters.
Oh, yeah.
And she first tried to take out Trump.
She denied that's what she was doing, but clearly that's what she was doing.
It was just Trump.
Trump was ready.
You remember, she's the one who says prior to that debate, one of the candidates might be ending their campaign tonight.
That's what she said.
Exactly.
And she was unready to battle Trump.
And then people forget, she's the main one who knifed Roger Ailes in the middle of the campaign.
And the hope was that knifing him then would hurt Trump because Ailes had switched by that point to being on Trump.
He'd been anti-Trump almost all the way up to that point.
But by that point, he had shifted, recognized where the writing was on the wall.
And then, of course, did what she did later on.
And only now is trying to sort of seek redemption because her being part of Wilksterism turned out not to be a smart long-term strategy.
And she doesn't have, frankly, the skill set of Barbara Walters.
She never did.
But particularly not while being a fake version.
But it'll be interesting to see how that happens.
And then before I bridge into the Antifa subject, I'm still waiting for the media to explain to me a lot of the language in those emails.
So they did a very good job.
Limiting that story to this, oh, this is one little pizza restaurant.
That's not what the story was.
90% of the evidence was about very unusual emails by people with very unusual ties, including David Brock and others, with some very unusual art on the walls that they've yet to answer.
What they were trying to do at the time was cover up actual discussion of Jeffrey Epstein, of the real situations, the real networks that were going on behind the scenes, because they were still in power.
They were still active.
Keep in mind, 2016, still active at that point.
I mean, what did he end up involved in?
I mean, is it a coincidence?
I mean, if any of these people were deeply concerned about child abuse, why were they so eager to both demonize, marginalize, and limit what that conversation was about?
This is the amazing thing, having lived through this from up north, totally detached.
I remember the email leaks.
Terms like pizza.
You left a napkin with a map on it.
Do you want it back?
Emails that made no sense.
And the entire discussion of this scandal became focused on and defined by that one incident at the pizza shop with the guy who showed up with the weapon looking to investigate.
And that somehow answered all of the unanswered questions about what on the name of earth...
They were discussing in those emails.
And that's the legacy of PG, is that it gets defined by that one incident, and everyone's forgotten about what was the actual substance behind it.
And I didn't want to infuse that into the question, but I saw those emails.
None of them made any sense.
They don't make any more sense now than they did then.
Did that justify what the individual did at the Comet pizza shop?
Obviously not.
But that has become the definition of it is nuts.
Right.
It's that insane person who should have been in a mental institution, and it's on them, right?
Obviously, that's what we talk about, right?
When James T. Hodgkinson, the Russiagate shooter, came to Washington, D.C., Alexandria, Virginia, and attempted to shoot up a congressional baseball team because he had been mainlining Rachel Maddow and MSNBC conspiracies, was posting all sorts of stuff on his Facebook page.
Nobody turned around and said that was their fault.
Nobody turned around and said these people need to be banned or censored, etc.
They said, what a crazy guy, and we're glad nothing bad happens.
But you see, when something on the right happens, it has to be this massive narrative.
It has to be this huge thing.
It has to be this way-blown-out-of-proportion situation that nobody can ever bring it up again and again and again.
It's hard to bring it up when people don't even remember it.
They don't even know what we're talking about anymore.
But when it comes to the left, it's like, oh, sorry that happened.
See ya.
But it's actually been something that so few people on the right are willing to point out.
They'll say, when you bring up Steve Scalise, when you bring up these questions of violence, they say, well, the right is violent, the right is violent, right is violent.
And this is something when we talk about Antifa, this is something when we talk about James T. Hodgkinson, when you talk about Conor Betts, who was a mass shooter, an actual mass shooter, Dayton, Ohio, 2018.
All of these things existed.
All of them happened.
And yet people in conservative media and typically established in conservative media never want to talk about it.
They never want to bring it up.
They never want to let that narrative stand because they don't understand, as we were talking about, they don't understand the importance of utilizing those information networks.
They don't understand fourth dimension warfare in order.
To explain what's really going on behind the scenes.
And you do see some people who get this, by the way.
You see people who can tie specifically when you look at the Wuhan story and Peter Daszak and Anthony Fauci and the way that that narrative has been able to be really deconstructed in a sense.
That's the same thing as I just said.
It's counter-narrative reporting where we're telling the truth after the original narrative has already been established.
Now, bridging into Antifa.
Because, I mean, you see similar crazy attempts to re-narrate who and what Antifa was.
For the first several years, they didn't exist.
It was all myth, just stuff made up.
You still have Jared Nadler repeating that because he's on a five-year-old clock.
And then you have the second attempt after Charlottesville, which was to re-narrate them as being the equivalent of World War II soldiers who landed in Normandy.
You still have some aspects of that on MSNBC, Joy Reid, Chris Cuomo, and others.
But my personal introduction to them historically understood it well.
As you were mentioning, the need to purge the fascistic element, even though that was a tiny, tiny, tiny element, but it was a loud element, and you and Mike Cernovich took the lead on that right away in 2017, making sure the Richard Spencers of the world and that crowd were not acceptable as part of this movement.
Their speech can be protected, but that doesn't mean they need to be welcomed as being associated with this.
Right, and by the way, and I would even point that out.
I've never personally called for anybody to be banned or censored on social media.
It's something that I'm against.
I'm not about censoring people.
But it was about drawing a line in the sand politically about who we were and what our movement was about, what the Trump movement was about, as opposed to these other, as you say, smaller but also forceful elements that are out there in the world and in America today.
And those sort of fascistic elements always wanted a Charlottesville-type event, just like Antifa did.
It goes all the way back to the 1920s, 1930s.
Fascists used communists to rise to power.
Communists used fascists to try to rise to power.
They needed each other to justify each other.
So I understood the historical construct, but my personal individual introduction to it was the deplorable.
Where, you know, as you're walking in, my press assistant was with me and she's maybe like 5 '3", 5 '4".
Did you read the chapter that we do in the book about this?
In the Antifa book?
Yeah.
I haven't got to that yet.
Oh, dude.
All right.
Well, then you are in for a treat because I do a whole, like, literally minute by minute breakdown of everything that happened that day.
That was insane.
People forget.
They tried to smoke bomb the place.
They tried to do a bunch of crazy stuff.
And when I'm walking in, I mean, my assistant, 5 '3", 5 '4", you know, 110 pounds maybe.
I mean, they were throwing batteries, you know, this side at her head.
These people were in the institutional media, lied about it, hit it.
Then the people did all the violence.
They were throwing not only batteries.
Go ahead.
Not only were they throwing batteries at my family, at my mom, my brother, my dad, my girlfriend was there.
James O 'Keefe, when he comes in, they were throwing batteries at poor Bill Mitchell, of all people, when he walked in, right?
You know, because he's actually pretty tall.
He's a pretty tall in real life guy.
And I mean, the amount of insanity, the burnings, and here's a crazy thing when it comes to all that.
My mom...
Was talking to her cousin after the whole thing.
Her cousin's like one of these MSNBC people.
And she's like, well, I can't believe you would go to that.
I can't believe Jack would do this.
And she's like, well, you know, I mean, it's, you know, there's a difference of opinion.
I completely understand that.
But it did get really violent there.
Cousin goes, no, I looked that up online.
They said it wasn't very violent.
My mom's like, I was there.
I'm telling you, it was very violent.
There were fires.
There were people being assaulted, people getting bloodied up.
Keep buying it inside.
It was great, by the way.
Once we get inside, we rented the entire National Press Club, which I think is one thing that just triggered a lot of people because we literally had every room of the National Press Club rented out.
We dropped like six figures in one night, and it was just glorious.
But outside, it was really bad.
And so here's my mom talking to someone, a family member, that she's known literally her entire life.
But because that person's an MSNBC watcher, she goes...
Well, no, I just, I don't believe you, right?
And so you see the power of the media to be able to split up families because we don't have...
When you look at the separations in Western society, in American society today, it's not North-South.
It's not state-on-state like it was in the Civil War.
It's these information borders.
We have information borders that could exist as much as one house to the next house.
They exist within families.
They exist within communities.
They exist within churches, within schools, now within the military, if you heard General Milley earlier today.
So you can see where there's a situation where...
People will not even believe something that they've been told by a family member that they've been close with their entire life because their source of information told them something different.
Well, I mean, it goes back to the, I mean, Gaslighting references the London play that became an old movie, which is about an abusive husband convincing his wife things didn't happen that did or things did happen that didn't.
And so when people use that abusive relationship dynamic, they're accurately depicting and describing the origin of the term.
I actually prefer the American version of that to the British version, not that you asked, but there's two and the American one is far better.
Oh, yeah, I'll agree with that.
In that context, so when you go about writing the book, one, what inspired the idea to make it into a book, but also what sort of methodologies did you apply in trying to detail and document the history and what's happening on a day-to-day basis, especially as we're about to experience another gaslighting narrative?
Within a year, they're going to tell us the riots that happened all summer didn't happen, just like they said what happened in D.C. didn't happen in 2017.
Oh, and wait till you see what happens.
On January 6th, 2020, when it becomes the one-year anniversary of the Capitol riot, January 6th, wait till you see the commemorations, the speechifying, Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, they're going to be out there.
I mean, it is going to be an event.
It's going to be an absolute event.
And it's going to be mandatory for the state.
And when I say the state, I don't just mean the federal government.
This is going to be in schools.
This is going to be in universities.
This is going to be in the military.
You watch less than six months from today.
This is going to be...
The next big thing, the one-year anniversary of that.
But what we do in this is I apply three different methodologies.
You get three different flavors.
The book is Antifa Inside the Black Block.
I did things backwards.
I actually was collecting all this information throughout 2020.
Usually, they say you do the book and then you make the movie.
Well, I made the movie first.
We have antifamovie.com and it's up.
We did this great documentary, millions of views on it, called Rise of the Black Flags.
The idea was to get that out.
In the fall of 2020, so that people would have a chance to be able to watch it prior to the election.
But we collected so much information for this thing that, you know, even the people I interviewed for the documentary and just the background that I was doing.
Plus, my daily reporting, working for One American News, going around all these different things, spending time undercover in the Chaz, I realized that there was enough material for a book.
And so I continued working on that all throughout 2020.
When I had a spare time, when I was on a flight, when I was up late one night, I'd work on a chapter, work on a chapter, work on a chapter.
And there's three basic elements to the book.
One is those personal So in the CHAS, that's one major chapter, the deplorable major chapter, even to the point where I'm infiltrating Antifa in a church basement in Northwest Washington, kind of before I was recognizable yet.
So I was able to get in there.
This is before COVID, so you weren't masked all the time.
And seeing the working group, seeing the affinity groups, see the high level of sophistication that they have, and then using my military intelligence background to know how to break that out.
Um, so you're doing, um, you know, you're doing hierarchy, you're doing leadership, you're doing funding.
Um, they call it Milo dollar sign.
So, uh, was it members, ideology, organization, leadership?
Um, I'm forgetting that.
Oh, organization and then funding.
So Milo dollar sign.
That's, that's like one of the heuristics they teach us.
And then, um, from there we go to a level of.
The ideology, tracking the ideology backs, and the history of Antifa.
So we go to Weimar, Germany, right?
We talk about how Antifa was founded by a Soviet agent in Germany called Ernst Talman.
We go back to the anarchist movement of the late 1800s, early 1900s that led up to what sparked World War I. We also talk about Leon Cholgash, the guy who's an anarcho-socialist that assassinated William McKinley, president of the United States.
And yet you don't get taught in schools that...
An anarchist shot and killed the president.
This is how Teddy Roosevelt became president of the United States.
Youngest president, age 44, because of Buffalo, New York, the president was shot by an anarchist.
You know, it's funny, he's actually doing a podcast with a gentleman from Human Events named Brent Hamachek, who's a little bit older than me.
And he actually pointed out, he said, you know, Jack, when I was in high school, they did teach us.
That McKinley was shot by an anarchist.
And I said, man, you are the only person I've talked to that has said that because nobody else has ever pointed that out to me.
And then from the third perspective, what we get into is the underpinnings of why do people join this organization?
And so we talk about...
The hollowness of false moralities that are erected because of pervasive nihilism in postmodernist society.
We talk about the way that people have moved away from the traditional moral values.
I get into Thomas Aquinas a little bit.
We talk about...
The Kohlberg's theory of moral development, the moral development of man, as you go from a child into adolescence and then into adulthood, we get into how all of this has been broken, or what Aquinas called it is, he calls it your journey from potentiality into actuality, into actualization.
He believed that full actualization was the fullest extent of your potentiality, and what he's essentially was doing, and if you read the Summa Theologica, Trying to pair Aristotelian philosophy with the teachings of the Catholic Church.
So this idea that not only is the actualization of self the most important thing you can be doing, but it's also the highest good you can be doing, and that is what will bring you closer to God.
And that's sort of the journey of life.
You're close to God, you move away from God, and now you're moving back.
And then sin and...
The devil and demonic influence, that's pulling you away, right?
They can't create sin, they're pulling you away.
And so someone who might join Antifa is someone who's broken that chain of moral development because they're typically from...
A upper middle class to wealthy background.
They don't have those formative years of a rite of passage going from adolescence into adulthood of meaningful and useful work.
You hear these stories.
They don't have a story of, oh, I was working summers or, oh, I joined the military.
Oh, I did this.
Oh, I did that.
They don't have that meaningful work.
And this is something that even Lennon.
Right.
Experienced when he got into wanting to perform the socialist or the Bolshevik uprising when he said, look, you know, these, these workers, I don't understand all these serfs.
They're, they're just not, they're not uprising on their own.
I don't know what it is.
I don't know what's going on.
And he said, we need to need to find some.
Landed class to lead them.
And we'll call it, what do we call it?
We'll call it the vanguard of the proletariat.
And so the vanguard of the proletariat is led, of course, by the Bolsheviks.
This is Lenin and his cadre.
And you see this with Chairman Mao as well.
He's kind of a rich kid, right?
His father was one of the richest landowners in his area.
So it's like you're rich enough.
That you don't have to work, but you're not exactly powerful enough that you're part of the ruling class, and that's where you find a lot of these members of communist uprisings, even in the past, and until all the way up to today.
That is the same kind of band of person that is joining one of those things, and as Eric Hoffer would call it, a true believer.
That's actually amazing.
Sorry, go ahead.
I was going to say, it's a particularly good point when you see...
By the arrest sheets of the individuals who were arrested at these Antifa, you know, the Antifa members who were arrested at these protests, they have a certain economic demographic that fits exactly what you just said.
I just wanted to say also...
That ain't poor people in there.
That ain't poor people.
And also, by the way, anybody who's interested, you just did a great podcast with Michael Malice on which you went.
It was basically all about the book.
So if anybody, you know, gets bored by this, they can go watch Michael Malice.
It's 45 minutes, an hour straight on the book.
And that's where I got my breakdown of the book because I haven't listened to it.
There's the whole thing that Biden infamously said, Antifa is just an idea.
You go into a lot of detail about the history of Antifa, which a lot of people are going to tune out or, you know, they're not going to be that interested in because it's so...
What we see today is so, I guess, in a way different than the history of what it was and how it's materializing now.
On the one hand, what's the response to it just being an idea and the manifestation of it today compared to the history of the term itself?
Well, sure, yeah.
Yeah, it's just an idea.
Anti-fascism is just an idea.
It's an extremist idea.
The same way that...
You know, radical Islam is just an idea.
The same way that white supremacy is just an idea.
The same way that separatism is just an idea or extremist separatism is just an idea.
Extremist groups start with just an idea.
When I was at Guantanamo, I learned as much as I ever wanted to know, way more than I ever wanted to know about radical Islam and its adherence.
But it's those extremist ideas that start to form movements, and those movements are enjoined with people who start to form networks.
Those networks then form cells.
Those cells go out and conduct actions.
Those actions then tend towards violence.
They tend towards criminal activity.
Right.
And so if you're saying, oh, that's just an idea, well, the response immediately should be, you mean like white supremacy?
That's just an idea, right?
And yet you're trying to reform the entire government.
You've just told us that that idea is the greatest threat to all of Western civilization.
So if that's just an idea, well, then yeah.
And if ideas can be that bad, then which is it?
Why is this extreme idea?
It's not important because it's an idea, but that extreme idea, Is the greatest threat to all of Western society.
And how much do you think, like I often describe Antifa and the Klan and fascism and communism as two sides of the same coin, the way in certain respects Hunter Thompson described the Hells Angels and abusive police officers, as often two kids from the same parent who just reacted a little differently.
But one became deeply authoritarian, the other deeply anti-authoritarianism, but have the same psychopathology at its roots.
Then often Antifa struck me, like the Klan, as its rise being dependent on having its sociopathic That's how they expand.
That's how they continue to do what they do.
And that Antifa in particular has for the last, at least since 2016, been given a political permission slip by a lot of people in positions of power to continue to operate.
In D.C., none of them, to my knowledge, have faced punishment.
Almost everybody who did the real violence of the last inauguration, which was the 2017 inauguration of Donald Trump, where they were burning cars, where they were mass-breaking just random windows of stores.
All of those people walked, ultimately, either through jury nullification, grand jury nullification, prosecutorial failure to follow up.
How much did, in your analysis, is that political permission slip from the political class?
You missed the best one.
The ACLU comes in on behalf, by the way, of those people that I was infiltrating who attacked us at the deplorable, who then attacked us the next day at Trump's inauguration.
There was no peaceful transfer of power from Obama to Trump and anyone who says that is a liar.
The ACLU comes in, defends them, gets a settlement from the city of Washington, D.C. for them 1.6%.
That's what the ACLU did for the Antifa rioters.
That's money being paid to the Antifa folks, not money from Antifa.
A cynic like me is going to see that as a form of money laundering of taxpayer dollars from activist cities to activist entities through activist lawyers.
Am I wrong?
He ain't wrong, folks.
He ain't wrong.
Because if you're paying entities with taxpayer dollars, and it's a great way that, you know, without picking another city, but it's a great way of everyone who has a similar type of ideology funneling the money into it in the same way, you know, someone buys anonymously a $500,000 piece of art from Hunter Biden.
It reeks of the same fruit, so to speak.
Now, getting into that, you're one of the people...
Robert, to answer your question, yes, obviously.
And we talk about this at great length in the book.
And we get into this when I talk about the James T. Hodgkinson shooting of Steve Scalise.
And when I talked about...
So people will...
This day will bring up the fact that when I went with Laura and we did the Shakespeare in the Park situation where we crashed the stage and did a protest inside the audience there.
When they were doing the Shakespeare in the Park, the Julius Caesar with...
Where it was Trump was essentially Julius Caesar, and they're stabbing him every night while they have this caricature of Melania with a ridiculous Russian accent, screaming off to the side.
And everybody in the crowd is just cheering and clapping and laughing.
And I get up and said, you guys are all Joseph Goebbels, right?
This is the kind of stuff that you'd see in the Third Reich.
These are the kind of productions that they would put on.
You're just stabbing your political opponent, and you're laughing at the normalization of political violence.
That when you normalize this violence, when you celebrate this violence, When Chris Cuomo goes on air and says, not all punches are equal.
Now, it's a crude formulation from Cuomo's part, but what he's doing is creating a new moral framework, and he's imposing his new moral framework of, as opposed to all political violence is bad, he's saying some political violence...
Isn't that bad.
Jake Tapper compares Antifa to Captain America with them punching a Nazi and posting memes about this.
And this is where you get the same people who tell you to say, oh, well, the people who are storming the beach of Normandy, that's basically Antifa, right?
So you see these hagiographies of Antifa in the wake of Charlottesville and other events throughout 2017.
Where their violence, in many cases, not only is just not covered up, or when they do point it out, they'll put this new moral framework on top of it.
And so the left is incredible at creating new moral standards and creating new moral frameworks.
And the right will turn around, and most of the time, especially establishment conservatives, will turn around and accept.
The left's moral framework without pushing back on it and arguing from a position that's in favor of traditional Western values.
And until conservatives writ large can start to do this, they are never going to win because you are still arguing from their frame.
Now, how much do you think your Polish ancestry informed and your connection to that narrative and its ongoing that polls...
Sort of distinctly throughout Eastern Central Europe as well, have experienced the horrors of fascism, experienced the horrors of communism, and the current horrors of the kind of sort of woke globalism and open borders and the rest, and have fought back against all three.
How much did that help inform your own understanding of these things in a way that was ahead of the curve compared to most people within the conservative political space?
So when you look at Polish culture and you look at the history of the Polish people, You know, and then people have these gripes about, well, your country colonized our country, your country conquered our country, your country did this, your country did that.
Poland's never done any of those things.
Poland has been a Catholic country and a traditional community from the moment it was founded, from the moment it was instituted over a thousand years ago in Central Europe, right?
This has been a country and an entity where it has wanted to keep its language, its culture, and its religions.
Even at times where we lost our country, where our country was wiped off the map by the forces of the Austro-Ulgarian Empire, the Germans, the Russians, you know, I would say about Poland, great country, terrible neighbors, right?
But it was only through the sustainment of that traditional culture and the teaching of those morals passed down.
Remember, 120 years wiped off the map, passed down from father, To son, grandfather to grandson, all along down the line.
In 1911, Poland was able to get their country back.
That's why I flew back to Poland to participate in that 100th year march that was held in...
Wait, was it 1911?
Oh, total brain fart.
But a couple years ago, in...
Oh, it was 18. Excuse me, 1918.
It's 1111.
That's why I'm thinking 11. So 11-11-1918 to 11-11-2018, that's why I flew back.
I brought my son.
His first day in Poland was Poland's 100th day of independence, of their coming back onto the map.
And to be there in...
You know, quote unquote, the mother country, as it were.
You get a real sense of community.
You get a real sense of understanding what it's like to have fought back against those types of odds of people coming in and trying to impose their morals, their values, their systems onto a bunch of people that have never...
I mean, Hitler came in and tried to wipe...
He wanted to wipe us all out.
He wanted to get rid of us.
He wanted to create Liebenstrom, the living space for more Germans, and viewed us as Untermensch.
Some Poles could live, but they would be servants to the German leaders or whatever.
That's how they viewed us.
The history doesn't really get taught this way in America, but actually it's the Slavs that then come back and fight and defeat Germany in the Battle of Berlin.
But then, of course, it's the immediate betrayal of Poland because Poland and the Allies say, well, you know...
You did your part and you've been liberated, but we're going to let you stay under the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact is going to exist and you can be behind the Iron Curtain and we're not going to do anything for you.
So Poland then, even after having its liberation from the Nazis, then becomes occupied by the communists all the way up through the 1990s.
And that's why today, when you see a lot of the globalists and the...
The apparatchiks and the functionaries of Brussels trying to push their morals, their economic and value, their value-based judgment on Poland.
You get so much bristling and so much friction because Poland does not want to change.
This is a country that has been its way for a very long time.
They are not interested in imposing anything on anybody else, but don't you dare come in there and tell them how they should be living because it ain't going to fly.
And I'll bring this one up.
These are the discussions that always lead to strife and discord in the chats.
Poland invaded its neighbors many times at the height of its power in the 17th century.
The oppressive policies of the magnates in Ukraine led to the Cossack uprising against the Commonwealth.
History is necessarily a question of perspective to some extent, and we're not going to get into that here.
My grandfather, Jack, was born in Austria.
It became part of Poland after World War II.
It became part of the Ukraine.
He fled in 1936.
Everyone has their own historical connection to the ever-changing forces of the world and don't expect people to agree on it.
So we're not going to get into the fighting in the chat, but it is amazing to get everybody's perspective on this.
First thing, before we end this, because we're getting towards the end, where can people find your book?
And then I think we need to talk about McAfee because people really want to hear what both of you think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
On McAfee.
So where do we get the book, Jack?
Keep it super simple for people, you know, because I don't like websites that are, you know, people always try to come up with these things that are too cute by half, too clever by half.
For me, it's really simple.
AntifaBook.com.
I wrote a book about Antifa.
Go to AntifaBook.com.
Can you believe nobody actually had it registered yet?
So no, it's AntifaBook.com.
That's where you go to find it.
And it's on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, everywhere else's books are sold.
Okay, excellent.
I'll be on later with Eric Hundley on his News with Booze to break down a little bit more about McAfee, but I think there's reason what Jack called for earlier.
There needs to be a meaningful investigation, because as soon as there's an extradition, suddenly that's when he decides to kill himself when he's been telling people for years he's never going to kill himself, and he's been telling people for years that he has dirt on high-powered people.
So, I'm just inherently suspect that the government's inability, this is another prosecution in part out of the Southern District of New York, the SEC part, not the tax part, that somehow a high-profile defendant ends up dead in jail.
So, you know, within a few years...
Yeah, for me, looking at it and, you know, kind of going back to my Guantanamo background, and I've talked about this with Michael Malice as well, but...
Guys in Guantanamo were constantly trying to kill themselves.
They were doing that out of religious fervor reasons.
They believed that killing themselves or they were talked into essentially that by killing yourself, you'll be striking a blow against the West because of the propaganda value.
And then you will be actually honored and you will be a martyr, etc., etc., etc.
And so you find out very quickly how easy it is to commit suicide in prison and how many ways there are to do this.
And so my question would be, was McAfee on any type of suicide watch?
Was it a serious suicide watch?
Who was in the prison with him?
What type of cell structure was it?
Did he have access to other individuals?
How was he found?
Was the situation like Epstein?
And there's all these strips of blankets and other parts of the parchment and the paper of the different...
Prison uniforms that are found around the cell.
If that's true, if that's the case, why was he left alone for that long?
Were the conditions in the Spanish prison, right?
Was it a modern prison?
It's Barcelona.
So of course, Barcelona being in Catalan kind of has like a certain degree or Catalonia has a certain degree of autonomy.
So does that mean their standards are exactly the same?
And even the police structure in...
In Spain, when it comes to Catalonia, is slightly separate from the national standards of police in Spain, and so there's a lot of differences.
There's kind of an overlap of the local police have a lot of autonomy there, and so I'd love to know what was actually going on in terms of that prison situation.
Exactly.
And I'd be curious whether, like, he was supposed to be getting transported very soon.
So was he, you know, where exactly did this happen?
So if he was going to be transferred, and that...
Then the embassy obviously would have been involved.
For someone that's high profile, the FBI has liaisons throughout the embassies in every country of the world.
This is called your legal attache or your legate.
It's called a legate in parlance.
So the legate has already probably visited John McAfee several times, knows this is going on, should have been in charge of that entire process.
And this is really something, again, where people are going to come to find very quickly that the FBI and the Department of Justice was directly involved in this, because if there was an extradition, that's precisely who would be conducting, is that legat, the legal attaché of the United States, a representative of the FBI, out of the embassy.
And sometimes the regional security officer is an assisting official, and as I've experienced in a range of cases, those people sometimes have multiple three-letter names that they're associated with in terms of agencies.
Every embassy operating throughout the world has a representative of each major three-letter agency in it.
Precisely.
That might be a good way to end this.
What's good is we touched on a lot.
We went into depth on a lot, but there's going to be a lot for us to talk about if we ever want to do this again.
Jack, if you ever want to do it again, anytime, because there are a lot of things that we...
There's still a lot of things to talk about retrospectively, and undoubtedly, a lot of stuff is going to happen on a going-forward basis that is going to be discussion-worthy.
So, stick around.
After this, we're going to say our proper goodbyes.
Everyone in the chat...
Thank you very much for tuning in.
Share this away.
Check out the book.
This was the one time I didn't get to listen to the book before the stream, but I'm going to go listen to it now because I'm interested in the historical side of this.
And a little later, I'll be at the chat at vivabarnslaw.locals.com.
It's as good as a pillow from MyPillow.
Oh, and you'll be on Eric Hunley's News with Booze.
Yes, indeed.
And again, the code for MyPillow is what, Jack?
It's promo code POSO.
P-O-S-O.
Also works in Canada and the UK.
Alright, I may have to do it just so that I can say I did it.
We'll see how good it is.
We're going camping later this summer, so maybe it's going to be good for that.
Oh, there's so much for camping.
There's a ton of...
I'm not doing a hard pitch, but there's actually a ton of products on the site if you want to check it out.
It's pretty cool.
Alright, everyone.
Check it out.
Export Selection