Four guests from the radio show. Philip Mantle on Disclosure, an update from Jaime Maussan on the claimed 'alien mummies" in Peru and Dr James Giordano with news on "Havana Syndrome". Also Douglas Thompson... who co-authored the new book "Reckless - Sex,Lies and JFK..." with ex-detective Mike Rothmiller. It describes what they say are the sometimes sordid dealings of Joe and John F Kennedy and shocking background details of their quest for power.
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My name is Howard Hughes.
This is The Unexplained.
Well, here in London Town, we're getting a taste of spring.
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Now, a lot of the items you're going to hear, in fact, all of them are from a recent radio show because they were items that I felt are worth preserving.
Number one, Philip Mantle, just with a few ideas from the UK about disclosure, where we're at with that process.
Philip Mantle, of course, the man behind Flying Disc Press.
After that, another chapter in the Alien Mummies story with Jaime Mussan.
There were some bizarre developments in South America, in Peru, when Jaime held another presentation about 10 days ago, as I speak these words.
And I will bring you up to speed with Jaime about the events there, because it was interrupted, and he will tell you his version of why that was and where he's at with this strange alien mummies story that we've been following here for months and months.
After that, we'll be talking with an expert about the Havana syndrome, you know, that strange set of symptoms that people in diplomatic missions, mainly U.S. ones, have been suffering and claims that perhaps Russia is behind this with some kind of directed energy weapon.
There's been an update on this after some research by some esteemed media outlets.
So we'll talk with James Giordano about that, an expert on Havana syndrome.
We've had him on here before.
And then after that, the author of a new book, the co-author of a new book about JFK.
Just when you thought you'd heard everything there was to hear about JFK, his assassination, who may have been involved in a plot, was it the work of a lone gunman?
And sometimes the sordid details of JFK and the Kennedy family's private lives.
Well, this new book ties together the details of those private lives and the political machinations and the involvement with organizations like the Mafia.
The book is called Reckless, Sex, Lies, and JFK.
It's authored by Mike Rothmiller, who of course had a distinguished career in law enforcement and has been a guest on this show before, talking about the Kennedys and Marilyn Monroe and other topics.
His writing partner is accomplished author Douglas Thompson.
He's a Brit, and we'll have him on this edition of The Unexplained talking about that book, Sex, Lies, and JFK.
So what I'm going to do is the first three items, I'm going to run them exactly as they ran on the radio show, but obviously with edits to take out anything superfluous.
So item number one will be Philip Mantle and the disclosure process.
Item number two, Jaime Mossan and the alien mummies and some news that was not reported in the UK or US.
We'll try and get a handle on why that was.
James Giordano about Havana syndrome.
And then I'll come back in and introduce Douglas Thompson talking about the book, Reckless Sex Lies and JFK.
So let's get first of all to Philip Mantle.
And we'll talk about disclosure or not.
You've given a whole bunch of years to investigating this to now publishing books on this.
What do you think of the process that we're watching at the moment?
Is it the process of secrecy, once again?
Is it the process of there really isn't anything to tell, quite as good as we were told?
Or is it the process of...
If we tell people that we're not alone, then we as decision makers and politicians don't look nearly so important as we did before.
I wonder which of these things is in play.
What do you think?
Well, of course, Howard, you know, most of the so-called disclosure movement, shall we call it, is emanating from the United States.
And the government, they believe, has secrets to reveal that we're not alone in the universe.
Let's assume that's correct, of course.
But do you really think it would be left to one government country to deliver that message to mankind?
I don't think any of the people on the disclosure chat have ever mentioned this.
You know, this would be a truly international event to be empowered.
So, you know, to have whether it be President Biden or whoever may take over him next or for the UN Secretary General.
But the Americans think, you know, the government is just the American government.
Well, you know, the UFO phenomenon, whatever it may be, is truly international in scope.
So unless you see a gathering of international leaders behind it, and I think, you know, you're whistling in the wind, I really do.
And what do we think?
Sorry, Philip, what do we think might be happening in the United Kingdom?
Because ever since we had that big hearing in Washington, July 26th and everything else that's happened since, there has been a deafening silence from Whitehall, the UK.
Now, I know we've got a million political problems here, but.
There was one debate, wasn't there, in the House of Lords, which basically said the same as we already know, you know.
But, Howard, if again, people miss little things.
When the SF-2A closed, that's the place where public could report UFO sightings to the MOD.
The MOD signed off saying we'll no longer take public reports.
However, there was a caveat built into that.
We will look at reports that come from in inverted commas reliable witnesses, i.e., you know, military aviators, members of the armed forces, members of the police force.
So whilst the overall look at the subject has changed, there was still an avenue, albeit not really an open avenue, for others, these witnesses that the MOD had talked about, to report things.
And our MOD has been consistent since the 1950s.
They only ever looked at the UFO subject from a defense point of view.
If it didn't threaten us, they weren't interested.
Basically, what they were looking for, Howard, was the Russians, because they do play cat and mouse over the North Sea and part of the Baltics.
And you know that.
We all know that.
And they didn't find any.
So if it wasn't the Russians, they weren't really interested.
But there were a small number of sightings each year that were looked in by another part of the intelligence community.
It was a department called DI-55.
And they're the ones that were charged to looking into these things.
Now, DI-55 has also been dispensed with, but it will be no doubt, you know, brought into existence, but with a different name.
And so the MOD will look at certain accounts.
So the UFO research from the MOD is not completely finished, but it depends.
If you look at Arrow in the United States, they are concentrating on military aviators primarily, but they're looking at civilian aviators.
And they're looking at ways that perhaps they may be able to have a reporting structure for members of the public as well.
I think they'll regret that if they go down that rope, but that is entirely up to them.
So they've gone public with that and they have a place, something put in place where you can report those things.
Whereas you would probably, if you were an RAF aviator, you would probably port it to the base that you were serving from rather than anywhere in Whitehall, if you see what I mean.
So it's different, but it's along similar lines.
So there still is a structure there for UFO reports, some UFO reports to be made to the MOD.
So it's as simple as that.
We do things differently.
Just lastly, Philip, and again, thanks for giving up your time tonight.
There's been a lot of excitement, including from yourself, about a new Netflix series.
Files of the Unexplained.
Do they realize I have a UK registered trademark on the unexplained?
Started a couple of days.
I think they're a lot bigger than me, but they started a couple of days ago with this.
And the first one was about Pasca Gula.
You are the expert.
What did you think?
Yeah, it was very good.
You know, it's Calvin Parker's last ever interview before he passed away last year.
And they've done it with, you know, a great character.
There's no Mickey taken.
There's no giggle factor.
There's a lighter side to it where they have a celebration every year.
So there's a little light touch to it, but it's no way taking the Mickey.
You have a number of witnesses on there, Charles Rusty Anderson, Susan Snow, Judy Branning, all of them have said we saw something on that night.
You know, Mr. Anderson himself was driving over the bridge, over the river at the same time when he witnessed the UFO.
The mayor of Pascagoula is on there as well, and he speaks very highly of Charlie and Calvin and what it means to the town now.
It's accepted as part of their history.
And of course, I would like to say, although this was part of a series for Netflix, we are making two other documentaries, one with a gentleman called Darcy Weir in Canada and Entertain Me Productions in the UK, both looking at the subject, you know, this topic from a completely different angle.
And they'll be out later this year.
Oh, well, I look forward to that.
I'm due to be interviewing Darcy about something else for the podcast in a couple of weeks.
Hey, listen, Philip, thank you very much indeed.
We're out of time, but it's good of you to help me with this.
And both you and I will keep watching the headlines with interest.
I have a feeling that this coming week, and here I am setting myself up to be knocked down, I don't think we're going to hear anything.
Thank you, Philip.
Have a good night.
Philip Mantle from Flying Disc with a K Press, leading publishers of books on these subjects.
Now, the latest from veteran Mexican investigator Jaime Massan.
Last week, of course, he told us on this show that he would have an amazing alien mummy presentation last Thursday.
It happened.
But it didn't make the news in the US or UK.
It did in Latin America.
Stations like Telemundo and the Latin American version of NBC did reports about it.
And it was interesting for one reason.
It was interrupted by the authorities.
There were people in the Department of Cultural Affairs, I think it was, looking at the video, wearing those sort of flak jacket things with that written on the back.
Now, I have to say, you know, my Spanish sadly does not extend very far beyond Dos San Miguel Por Favor, so I wasn't able to know what they were saying.
But we've got Jaime Massan live on to us now.
This session was in Peru.
Remember that Jaime told us last week he would be showing Something new, something exciting there.
Jaime, thank you for coming on.
What happened at this hearing?
Why was it broken up?
Well, yeah, the Minister of Culture was very abusive, abusive of power.
They interfered with our presentation because they said they were looking for bodies.
And we knew that this could happen.
Yeah, we would not be so naive to take the bodies there.
Besides, it's not good to present them in big rooms with many people because of pollution, the bodies.
But the most interesting thing was that we presented the new body.
It's a female, probably around 20 years old.
The incredible thing is that she is pregnant.
And we were able to find with tomographers the little fetus.
And we found there that it was tridactyl.
If the fetus is tridactyl and the big body is tridactyl, then there is impossible to fake that.
That has to be considered very important or the most important evidence in this case.
I mean, that you weren't able, and I'm sorry for jumping in just because of time, that you weren't able to show the actual body.
What you did show was a video of the body.
Is that correct?
Yes, a video, the tomography, so the proof.
But besides, we had three very important physicians from the U.S., Dr. John McDowell, who is considered probably one of the best forensic scientists of the U.S. He just received a very important award, and by all the forensic experts, they gave it to him.
It was there, William Rodriguez, who is from the, I think he's the head of the anthropology department at the state of Marion, and also Gene Caruso, who is the director of the Institute of Scientific Forensic Science in Denver.
All of them were real experts.
They were able to analyze the bodies.
They couldn't find, and they said it, they couldn't find any explanation to this.
They couldn't prove or they couldn't demonstrate that the bodies were altered, that they were somehow caught or something.
Then they are, I think they were satisfied.
They want to continue with the investigation.
That means something.
And Dr. John McDowell has kindly to accept my invitation to conduct this investigation.
And I think he's going to do it.
And that's the big news from this conference.
Besides the new culture in conflict.
From what I saw.
Yeah, I mean, that's interesting.
They allowed you to get on with your presentation after they came in, didn't they?
Yeah, because they didn't find anything.
There was not a reason to do it.
And they were interrupting with the freedom of expression, my friend.
Okay, well, we'll see what happens about that.
Very surprised that nobody here reported that.
Perhaps it will get into the newspapers here.
The news cycle takes time.
It's like now the world has decided that this is fake because the Minimum Story of Pulcher said that it was fake.
I don't want to discuse that, but we have a lawsuit against them because of the lies they said.
And again, we don't want to be getting into the legalities of it.
What we want to be getting into is what these are said to be.
So can you describe one of these bodies?
We're on radio tonight, so people can't see the pictures, and there are no pictures in our media here.
Yeah, they are very humanoid.
The head, however, is very large, as we have seen many, many heads from the past, but there are no signs that this head was somehow modeled.
Okay, it has very big eyes, but at the same time, the eyelids are very, how can I say, small, diagonal, the eyes are diagonal, the bones are very strong, super strong, and it's three fingers in every feet and every hand, and the fingers are huge.
More than half of the hand are fingers and just three of them.
And spindly legs from what I saw.
Spendly legs, what is that?
That's kind of like, you know, long and thin.
Yes, that is correct.
That is correct.
That is correct.
So what's your best guess as to what they are, Jaime?
They are either a different species that just appear and disappear.
There were many different kinds, like seven different species that are tridactive that we know about.
Or they are coming from somewhere else.
And I think that's very possible because of the technology that they have inside, like the methos, you know, like the analysis of DNA that proved that they were hybrids.
That needs to be done again under very strict circumstances.
We are willing to do whatever they want.
And you have a scientist who's going to do that.
So just very lastly, what are you going to do next?
Well, I am waiting for the resolution of the lawsuit.
If we win, if we can conciliate with the government, we want to recover all the bodies that there are, investigate them with enough resources to do it in every way, to preserve the bodies because they are decaying very, very fast.
And fourth is to present them, to make a museum, to exhibit them to all the people in the world.
That's what everything is very important.
Preserve them is ordering to do it.
Well, fascinating story.
A lot of controversy, as you know, about this, Jaime.
But let's keep in touch and we'll take this story further if we can.
And I'm glad that you've got somebody who's going to do analysis on what you were presenting the other day.
Amazing story.
And that was Jaime Mussan again giving us an update.
Jaime Moussan, of course, Mexican investigator, has a very, very long track record in investigations in ufology and all of these things.
Regular guest, I used to hear him on the old Art Bell American shows.
So this man has a track record.
Something here doesn't quite add up.
Why is it necessary?
And I'm only posing a question.
Why is it necessary for the authorities to get so hot under the collar about this?
What is it that they're trying to prevent?
And what is the reason for them trying to prevent it?
Now, a lot of this is lost in translation, but I'm sure there's a good story for a newspaper buried in there somewhere.
The UK's public broadcaster reported this week a mysterious illness that's, or rather, the end of last week, a mysterious illness that has affected U.S. diplomats in recent years has been linked to a Russian intelligence unit.
Personnel stationed around the globe with Havana syndrome have reported unexplained symptoms like dizziness, headaches, that kind of thing.
They may have been targeted by Russian sonic weaponry.
According to a joint investigation by The Insider, Despiegel, and CBS's 60 Minutes, Moscow denies the accusations.
Let's get on, man.
We've had talking about the mysterious Havana syndrome a number of times.
Dr. James Giordano, forensic neuroscientist, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, D.C. James, thank you so much for coming on.
How are you?
I'm wonderful tonight.
How are you?
Very good.
And I guess that you're, well, I'm hoping that maybe this is going to give you a little bit of solace and comfort because the previous reports that we were getting about Havana syndrome was that they didn't know what it was and that it might have been a figment of, not imagination, but it was just something that was hard to pin down.
Here we have a potential explanation.
What do you think?
Well, I mean, in some ways it's validating.
I mean, as a scientist, you have the chance to be right or you have the chance to be wrong.
And as I said all along, we're very confident about the methods we used to be able to come to our assessment conclusions back in 2017 and 2018.
So the idea was, okay, show me something completely different based upon empirical evidence.
I'll be the first one to admit, well, even though our methods were sound, the conclusions were not accurate.
But in fact, it seems that they were.
So what we're really seeing now is that our conclusions that were met based upon a very, very sound process of abductive forensic using standardized processes, methods, and criteria for presumptive risk have demonstrated that these individuals in Havana, at very, very least, were exposed to some form of directable energy.
At that time, we were not in a position to say from whence it came and where it came, but certainly that was the most probable likelihood based upon probabilistic and possibility analysis.
And we have to say that it's not only U.S. diplomats in Havana, but it's also U.S. missions in other parts of the world.
And also, I think the Canadians have been affected.
That's true.
So my initial case was really dealing with those two dozen odd individuals from Havana, but then subsequent analysis being provided as those cases were then validated or verified to have signs and symptoms that were at least equivalent to those that were seen for the individuals who were affected in Havana.
And what we see is that there is indeed a pattern.
I mean, they're not identical in all individuals, and there's some reasons for that, not least of which is because individuals are, in fact, individual.
So the whole construct even of personalized and precision medicine with regard to assessment and diagnosis also applies here.
How is it that something that we recognize exists, in other words, these technologies are, quote, out there, they're at a high technological readiness level that would allow them to be scaled, fieldable, and operationalizable?
How is it that those things could then manifest these effects both subjectively and objectively in these individuals?
And that's really what you're seeing in terms of what's known as a constellation of features, signs, and symptoms.
And ultimately, what do we do about it?
Because if Russia in this instance denies that they are doing such things, that they're using directed energy weapons in this way as some kind of disruptive tactic, perhaps, do we not need to be coming up with either medical, chemical ways of assuaging the impact or giving people tinfoil hats or lead-lining diplomatic buildings or doing something?
That's a great point.
We do, and we have.
I mean, awareness of the fact that various types of directable energies could be weaponized is not new.
This is not novel unique to what happened in Havana.
We've recognized that this technology, at least as far as the acoustic technology, has been around for at least 20 years.
And there have been ongoing programs of detection, deterrence, and prevention.
Some of the newer technologies and iteration, both in the acoustic technologies and other potential forms of directed energy, inclusive perhaps of very rapidly pulsed microwaves that utilize lasers for the rapid pulsing, are certainly a focus of what we consider to be emerging technologies that could pose real threats, risks, and dangers, not only to government personnel and military personnel, but perhaps to public health as well.
Do they need to be outlawed?
You've got to prove they exist first, but do they need to be outlawed in the way that chemical weapons are supposedly outlawed?
I mean, this is a wonderful, wonderful point.
This is something that our research group, working with our international colleagues, has been arguing for for the past 10 to 15 years, even prior to Havana, is that the current language and focus of particularly the biological toxins and weapons conventions really need to be far more stringent to remain apace with the technologies that are being developed in science and bioengineering that could be weaponized.
So what do you think happens now?
You know, we've had this piece of research.
It's more solid than a lot of things that we've seen about this, which have been rather nebulous in the past.
So here we've got something to go on.
But relations between ourselves and the Russians are not exactly cordial at the moment, are they?
No, they're not.
I mean, so let's keep the attributional factor out of the equation just for a moment.
So let's keep the whodunit.
The fact is that somebody done it, whether that was a surveillance move or whether that was a disruptive technology to disrupt those communications technologies or whether it was actually a disruptive move to affect personnel, they each have slightly different consequences and implications.
But that aside, at this point, now it's a question of recognition this is a reality, as we've been saying all along, is an important step towards readiness, preparedness, mitigation, and prevention.
James, thank you so much for making time.
You always speak on this matter so succinctly, and you leave us all better informed.
Thank you very much.
Dr. James Giordano, forensic neuroscientist, full professor of neurology and biochemistry at Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, D.C. We will hear more about this.
Whether we will be able to find out exactly what kind of weapon this is, if it is a weapon, and how it's being used, and who's actually doing it.
Well, those are three other questions that need to be left to another time.
James Giordano, researcher into Havana syndrome, and before that, of course, you heard Jaime Massan and Philip Mantle.
Now, a longer item from the radio show, and something that is fascinating but is not for the faint of hearing.
So if you don't like to hear some details that are sordid in many ways, then of course skip this part of the podcast.
But I find it fascinating.
This is the research of Mike Rothmiller, and the man will speak with his co-author Douglas Thompson, about the new book, Reckless, Sex, Lies, and JFK.
In the preface to the book, before we speak with Douglas, I'm going to read this.
All his life, JFK expected to be serviced.
For most, sex is an optional side order of the day.
For him, it was compulsory, a manifestation of his majesty, his power, a display of entitlement and godlike behavior, the detritus of which was for others to clean up.
Smathers laughs with his friend that women will be the death of us, and for Jack Kennedy, that was prescient.
On the Waterstones website, which I've never quoted on air before, but there's a summary of the book here.
John F. Kennedy's life is promoted by sentimental and careless myth-makers as pure legend, but a sinister shadow lies across it.
His death was such a shocking event that the vivid memory of his assassination still binds us to much of what went before.
When it's recalled, it is almost always seen through the prism of that single terrible day in Dallas, obscuring the dark corners of his time and government.
For JFK, power was sound bites over policy, the White House a fairy tale castle, and the president manifested as a hyper-sexualized movie star.
As with Hollywood, the willing suspension of belief was required.
Reality imposes no such limits.
That's just part of it.
This is a book not entirely about JFK.
This is a book about JFK's father, the climate of the time, some of the big mafia figures, and the key events of an era.
And when I talk about an era, I talk about a large portion of the 20th century.
Let's get Douglas Thompson on now.
This book is called Reckless Sex Lies and JFK.
Douglas, thank you for coming on.
Sorry, my introduction to this was so long.
How are you?
I'm fine.
Good evening.
No, you did very well.
Thank you.
Now, JFK, as I sort of hinted in reading those quotes, he was a war hero.
He took us into space.
He faced down the Soviets in the Cuban missile crisis.
He paved the way for equal rights in America and the world.
Some people won't like a book, I suspect, that will justify, if that's a good word, his reputation.
What do you have to say?
I think it tarnishes it rather than justifies it, and quite legitimately so.
As you read out in the sort of blurb about the book, because of Dallas and that terrible day, for decades, everyone has viewed everything about the Kennedy, about, let's say, JFK especially, and his White House and administration with a very favorable and kind.
I think kind is what, a kind view.
But over the years, more and more documents have come out, be it through freedom of information requests.
I'm just chipping away all the time just to see what exactly did happen.
And I think my first experience of the tarnishing, if you like, was disquietingly about nearly 50 years ago when I interviewed Judith Exner, who had written a book then about her affair with Kennedy, President Kennedy, and Sam Giancana, who was the head, the godfather of the Chicago mob.
And then she was pillaried as this tramp who was just really selling gossip, innuendo, and to a lot of people, lots of lies about Kennedy and about her relationship with him.
Subsequently, it's all been seen to be true.
And I think over the, you know, when you start at that point, it's very hard not to look at every aspect of his life and the administration and the actuality of it.
When you said in the introduction there that Kennedy had championed civil rights, well, it was actually LBJ who brought through and did everything about civil rights, who was the vice president, rather than JFK, who was not ambivalent, but not that interested in it.
And he and his brother Bobby Kennedy, who was his attorney general, they were not fans of Martin Luther King.
So that again, I mean, it's something we get into in the book, but there's so many layers to the Kennedy family.
And as you very pointedly and correctly said at the beginning, the book is about Joe Kennedy and the dynasty and how it all filters through over pretty much most of the 20th century has been affected in one way or other of the Kennedys.
Going through the book, Douglas, I had the impression as I started it that I'd garnered from all of my life.
I don't know too much about it.
I studied American politics at university a long time ago and we covered the Kennedy era and the assassination.
You know, we know about JFK and we know About the demise of his brother Robert, who was also assassinated some years later.
But we don't really think too much about the dynasty, the family, Joe Kennedy, the man who was the patriarch, the big figure of the family.
And your story goes all the way back to his time.
And again, if I quote from the book, the Kennedy men, father and sons, risked their lives in parallel with that other nefarious American dynasty, the mob.
With them, they shared interests and lovers.
They both operated within tight parameters.
They expected everybody to follow them and their rules.
What brought rancor and provided tragedy was only one side kept to these rules.
The mafia do not forget or forgive if they're betrayed.
The great sins, lack of respect, lies, and theft, bring the ultimate sanction.
No one is above being made an example of.
That's a very pointed paragraph there.
But the fact is, as they say, if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.
And Joe Kennedy, I was very, very surprised at the stuff that he was into regarding the mafia and the fact that apparently, according to the book, he was a bootlegger.
Joe Kennedy, I mean, his allegiance all the way through was to earning money, to the dollar.
Nothing could get in the way of making a dollar.
And he was at one point the youngest president of a bank in America, an Irish bank in Boston.
This was just pre-First World War.
After the war, and he'd gone into protected employment, so he didn't serve in the war, but he had connections.
He had many, many connections with local politicians, local tough guys, local, shall we call them, entrepreneurs.
And through that, he parlayed that into a very, very clever business whereby he had enough funds to invest in anything that seemed at that time in an emerging economy, and a country really emerging into the 20th century after the First World War.
So by doing so, he was very established.
And when prohibition came in, this was a fantastic opportunity.
And because the mob, the mafia, the American mafia, saw this as a tremendous moneymaker, Kennedy was working alongside them.
He, because of his overseas connections, he was importing Scotch from the UK.
From Ireland, he was bringing in whiskey.
And from Canada, he was bringing in Canadian liquor.
This was all being served in the speakeasies throughout New York on the coast of New York with all these mob guys who were basically almost washing money through the booze business.
The dollars would come in through various enterprises.
And Joe Kennedy just made thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars every hour of the day.
And you said that Joe Kennedy, of course, had a connection across the Atlantic.
That's not just the Irish familial connection.
But wasn't Joe Kennedy ambassador of the United States to London?
This comes later on.
he was very political.
He helped Roosevelt get elected in the first place and basically wanted...
Bobby Kennedy, the younger Kennedys became familiar with London and Europe and traveling throughout.
But Joe Kennedy himself became a very controversial figure in that he very much, he disgruntled people like Churchill because he didn't want America involved in the war.
He was supportive, he was not so much supportive, but he did not want to antagonize Hitler.
He thought the war could be avoided.
And he certainly didn't want to bring troops, American troops, to aid the British when the war did begin.
So he was despised by a great deal of society in the UK.
Yes, I think there's a quote in the book from a British MP, Josiah Wedgwood, denouncing him, quote, we have a rich man untrained in diplomacy, unlearned in history and politics, who is a great publicity seeker and who apparently is ambitious to be the first Catholic president of the US.
So, you know, Josiah Wedgwood MP was one of those not impressed with him.
Absolutely.
And I think, and also the difficulty was he was a charismatic and successful fundraiser for the Democrats.
So he was an asset in that way, but he was also feared by Roosevelt as someone who obviously wanted to go higher in politics.
But he certainly ruined his chances because of his attitude and behavior in London during the Second World War.
And equally, when he went back to Washington, he became a bit of a pariah politically.
And at that point, he then pursued his ambition to get his elder son, Joel, into the to become president.
He had a political career all mapped out.
Joel, very tragically, was a very heroic pilot, and he served with the American Air Force in Suffolk, in England, and he was on a very secret mission with a new carrying TNT,
about a thousand tons of it, flying into Europe when the plane exploded in mid-air, which killed Joe Kennedy and his co-pilot outright.
So, that whole plan of Joe Kennedy to make one of his sons president, that then passed on to John Kennedy, JFK.
You say in the book, Joe, I'm skipping around the book here and dragging out quotes.
Joe Kennedy believed he was omnipotent.
He had a protective shield.
He had no fears running illegal booze or openly chasing every woman he met because his business had the protection of the mafia.
They got their cut and his personal life was off-limits to the newspapers.
So he really must have believed then that he was fireproof.
In the earlier days, in the run-up before London, and I think he was fireproof in the sense that he got away with everything other than his reputation when he came back to or returned to Washington after World War II or during World War II.
But previous to that, he did.
I mean, he had the marriage.
He had a whole thing in Hollywood where he went out to Hollywood, made movies, helped bankrupt Gloria Swanson, who was his lover for over 10, 12 years.
There wasn't a star that he met that he didn't want to take to bed or did take to bed.
And so all of this was going on in public view.
But of course, at that time, the press didn't say a word.
And of course, arguably, well, not arguably, what does happen 30 years later when Kennedy JFK is in the White House is the press are also seeing what's going on with JFK and all the women, and they're not saying a word either.
So seeing it from today's world, the way we, you know, the way things, you could never hide any of that today.
But seeing it now, it's quite astonishing what went on.
My education on all of this is incomplete.
You know, I would have thought I always had this view from the newsreels and anything that I'd read.
You know, Joe Kennedy was the patriarch, the father figure of the family, and he had, you know, a couple of sons who were somewhat wayward, successful and did good things, but also were somewhat wayward.
But from what the book is telling me, it's very much a case of like father, like son.
Very much so.
I mean, I think the you go into the, you know, if you become the sort of amateur psychologist and all the sons wanted to please the father, who was very domineering from day one.
I mean, he was the patriarch.
The daughters wanted to please him by marrying the right men.
The men who became his son-in-laws wanted to please him.
So he had this kind of aura about him and domineering.
Even the girlfriends, I mean, I still am astonished by the testimony from two one to, I think, five different girlfriends or girls who went out with JFK all testified that when they met the father, the father was trying to get them up to the bedroom, you know, at the same time, or not at the same time, before even Kennedy had got there himself.
So in some senses, you just can't believe the audacity of the guy.
But some things, and I know that some of my listeners will be formulating this thought, and I've been formulating it too.
You know, some things are of their era.
There might be people who would say, in that era, at that time, if you wanted to further yourself and if you had dreams and ambitions of a political nature and you wanted to get on generally, then you had to compromise some of your principles and you perhaps would have to get involved with the mafia because they were involved in everything.
And the morality side of it, well, we know that absolute power, what they say about absolute power, it corrupts absolutely.
And a lot of powerful people behave in that way.
A lot of people who are not powerful and important behave that way too.
So just in terms of a sort of why do you want to bring these things out question, you know, in a way, a lot of people were up to these things in that era, weren't they?
Well, I take absolute power corrupts.
Well, absolute power actually in time also reveals what people are themselves.
I don't think you can argue that just to get on in politics, you should get into bed with the mafia.
No, no, no.
When you're in a nobody endorsing that.
No, no, I'm just saying, but I'm just saying it's in an era.
So whether it's that era or this era, yes, it goes on, but to see it going on in such a blatant and audacious way, with shameless way and without any conscience, because Kennedy's involved in, Joe Kennedy's involved in bootlegging, in which a lot of people get killed.
A lot of his men driving trucks get killed.
A lot of the other guys driving, the opposition driving trucks get killed.
So there is, I understand what you're saying about eras and what happens.
But you could go back to Genghis Khan, and I'm sure there must have been some good guys in Genghis Khan's team as well who didn't do the bad things.
It just seems that one family has promulgated this over the years and over the decades.
And it's all for that purpose of getting themselves, putting themselves forward for their own advancement at every opportunity.
So how do you square all of this?
And I know that you've done, both of you, both you and Mike, have done a lot of new research and spoken to a lot of people.
You've done the shoe leather work.
You haven't just read other people's books to do this.
You know, this is something that is new.
How do you Square the persona and the good, you know, what was it, a quote from Shakespeare?
The good is often interred with their bones.
You know, it's easy to speak bad of people, but the good is often interred with their bones.
I think that was Julius Caesar.
It's not like me to quote Shakespeare.
How do you square these revelations, if you want to call them that, with the good that these people did and the fact that they definitely have a place in history and the JFK, who we'll come on to talk about in the next segment after commercials, but the JFK was cut down in his absolute prime.
How do you square all of these?
I mean, there's a lot of dirt and fascinating stuff.
I mean, it's a book that you won't put down when you get it.
But how can you square all of that good and the popular conception that we've all had for all of these years, 60 years or more, 100 years?
How do you square those things?
Square in the sense of how can they be bad?
How can they be so bad and they're going to be so much good?
Well, I think it's the perception of what good they did do.
If you look into the, as the book does, into the Cuban missile crisis and bad elements, if you look into what went on in Vietnam, if you look into Joe Kennedy wanting to appease Hitler, if you look into all these aspects of it and the politics of it at the time is that Kennedy was certainly not reassured re-election.
Had he lived, had he not been assassinated, he might well have been impeached in that following year for various travesties that were going on in foreign policy.
Um, it's, it's, it's not a, it's, it's, it's, it's, There's a Dorian Gray element to all of this.
If you see this great, you know, these very clean-cut figures with perfect haircuts and looking the part and very presidential and very do-gooding and everything.
But somewhere, you know, there is a, you know, that painting is in the attic with all the, you know, the nasty things that went on behind the scenes.
We're talking about a new book, Mike Rothmiller, and the man we have on talking about it is co-author Douglas Thompson, Reckless, Sex, Lies, and JFK.
This book is widely available now, and it is full of detail, much of which is not of a savory nature about the Kennedy connection with the mafia, which I think has been documented, perhaps not to this extent in other places.
Joe Kennedy, we know, was U.S. ambassador to the UK, was also believed to be, according to the book, a bootlegger.
One unsavory detail, and we had to get into this, and again, this was something of which I knew nothing, was the, how do I put this, JFK witnessing his father, tell me if I've got this wrong, Douglas Willie, JFK witnessing his father having sex with Gloria Swanson.
Is that so?
Yes, it is.
Yes.
In fact, kind of, he saw her kind of entangled with her twice, but when he was 12 years old, he stumbled.
He was on their yacht, the Kennedy yacht, the Honey Fitz.
And Joe Kennedy at that time was having this passionate affair with Gloria Swanson, who was then, I suppose, I think the highest paid movie star in the world.
And this kind of how he never talked directly to anyone that we could find about how it affected him psychologically.
But it had been mentioned within the family, and it's certainly mentioned by the Gloria Swanson side of the story.
And again on the yacht some years later, when I think he was in his late teens, he stumbled upon them again.
But on the second one, she noticed he was there, and it was all just a little bit more of an embarrassment in that she pushed Joe Kennedy away.
And that was that.
But he and his brother was very aware of their father's infidelity and kind of almost addictive philandering from their early years.
The name Marlena Dietrich comes up in this book.
Dietrich is in her way absolutely fascinating.
Just to give you some idea of the wealth of the Kennedys, and that's something I didn't realize at the time.
I mean, the Kennedys, you hear about the Vanderbilts and Rockefellers and so on, but the Kennedys were rich, rich, rich, rich, rich.
He really had an awful lot of money.
And at one point, he took the whole family, and there's nine children, Mrs. Kennedy, Rose Kennedy, all of them, and they decamp to the south of France.
At that point, Marlene Dietrich has also brought her entourage to the south of France.
And at that time, it's her, she's with her lover, her husband, and his lover, and their family.
And they're all this elaborate hostess and parties going on in the south of France.
So, of course, Joe Kennedy being Joe Kennedy is enamored by Marlene Dietrich, Marlene Dietrich, and so on.
So they become an item and are spending time in the Cabanas and one of the Cabanas in the south of France of an afternoon together.
So this big affair is going on and there is a birthday party, as I recall, for one of the guests in the area is held.
And there's a big dance and the champagne and a whole lovely evening.
And young JFK Dances with Marlene Dietrich's daughter and is very kind to her because he's in a white tuxedo and so on.
And she's a very nervous young teenager, but he's polite and dances with her.
And it's all very above board.
But he also dances with Marlene Dietrich, who quite quickly puts her hand down his trousers and tries to arouse this young boy in full view of the father and so on.
So that incident happens, and this is 1930, I can't recall exactly, but late 30s.
So rush on 30 years on to the 1960s, and Marlene Dietrich turns up at the White House.
And basically, she and JFK finish the business they began 30 years earlier in the actual White House while Mrs. Kennedy is away for that weekend.
So do we think that JFK's upbringing, which was an upbringing of tremendous privilege, no shortage of money, no shortage of power around, no shortage of important and influential people around the place, but also these things that were going on as the subplot to it all.
How do you think that that affected him?
Would he, if he hadn't witnessed those things, if he hadn't been a part of those things when young, is it likely he'd have turned out the same, that he would have been so driven, because he was, he was so driven by the sexual motive.
You know, it was, we know, we've read a lot about that.
There's a lot about it in your book.
You know, would he have been the same had he not gone through that upbringing?
Difficult to say, but there was one very good study done by an eminent psychiatrist and medic in America.
But of course, Kennedy JFK suffered from Addison's disease, almost died from it several times as a young man.
And of course, he was on anabolic steroids much of the time.
And this psychiatrist stroke medic pretty much, very good argument, you know, argued very well that Kennedy's sex addiction, as he called it, could have been certainly brought on by the drugs that he'd been fed over the years, A, for pain, because he had this very bad back problem for the painkillers and then the steroids and the combination.
So at times he said he really was a chemical, you know, a mess, you know, mentally a mess chemically at times.
And especially when he was president, he was, you know, he really was, he had a doctor, you know, a doctor feel good who was jamming him up with, you know, with syringes here or there.
So it's, it's, there's a lot of that in the background as well.
So you've got the psychological with the father, you've got the medical, you put the two together, plus you've got the pressure of being the president and what we've called the book, the recklessness.
I mean, he must have you could never, you could, well, I could never know, but you have to think, how do you, how do you, when you say square away things, how do you square, you know, your wife's in the other, one room, you're in another room, you've got one of the interns from the, you know, going out the back door and another intern coming in the front door.
And then maybe you've got a meeting with the president of UK or the president of France in half an hour's time.
And he seemed to handle all of this.
And then he would go down to the swimming pool and follow in the swimming pool with whoever was around.
Was his life getting out of control in the run-up to his visit to Dallas, Texas, the motorcade and the events that we're all aware of?
Was his life beginning to spin out of control?
I think that there's it has to be conjecture, but you have to think the pressure on him at that point, having got through so much, Vietnam was the big, big thing there.
And we got a whole of a conversation that he had with the former diplomat and guy he knew from Boston, David Lodge, all about Vietnam and the pressure there, the assassinations of the president of South Vietnam, the international premium on all the things that America was doing at that point.
And of course, as you say, and Jackie Kennedy, who I think probably doesn't appear so much in this book, because she doesn't seem to have appeared much in his life during this period of time.
She certainly was a convenient, a marriage of convenience, just sort of the right lady at the right time.
And I think that at that point, you've got Bobby Kennedy trying to steady the ship, as it were, with his brother.
But by then, much like the father, and you made the point earlier on, he felt they could do no wrong.
You know, if they fell out of a tree, nothing, you know, they wouldn't break a bone.
That kind of attitude persisted and went straight back, as you said, back from that very privileged childhood.
It was always there that they could do anything they wanted.
And I think at some point, you know, before Dallas, that was coming to a head and people were beginning to put up obstacles or maybe not say yes every time he asked for something.
So I think that the writing was somewhat on the wall.
But after the assassination, all this group of people around the Kennedys who'd benefited from the JFK presidency created the Camelot and the myth of Camelot, which, and they did a fantastic job, no question about it, because it's been the story for decades that It was a magical time.
And of course, it was magical in perception if you weren't in the inside.
But from the inside, it was a hell of a mess.
Why should people read this book?
Because it presents us with a very detailed thing.
I mean, it is, as I say, it's a no-put-downer.
If you have the time, you're going to start reading this and you're going to see stuff that you haven't seen before.
You're going to hear claims that you've never read before, may not have read before, and you're not going to be able to put it down.
But I guess the question stands out there.
Why should people read this book?
What will it do for them?
Well, it gives them the real story.
It certainly gives them the balance.
It rewrites to a degree or it changes the myth, the perception that people have of the Kennedys and of the White House.
I mean, people have been dropping away.
I think the difference with this book is that what it does, it's it puts because, and you said the late, I mean, you know, just freedom of information, it sounds easy to do.
It can take five years just to get one bit of paper, and then they'll tell you that they actually lost the original request, and could you put it in again?
Douglas Thompson, the book that he's written with Mike Rothmiller, is Reckless, Sex, Lies, and JFK.
I don't think in my lifetime people will ever stop writing about the Kennedys and about the political machinations of that particular era because it is of endless fascination.
And I guess the question that we all ask ourselves is whether such things could happen and do happen and are happening today.
You may have more of an answer to that than I do.
I don't know.
I suspect they might.
What do you think?
Before that, of course, you heard James Giordano about Havana syndrome.
Jaime Massan, I don't know where that story about the alien mummies goes next, in South America.
And before that, Philip Mantle in the UK, the boss of Flying Disc Press, talking about disclosure or not.
More great guests in the pipeline here at the Home of the Unexplained, so until we meet again, my name is Howard Hughes.
