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Jan. 21, 2024 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:04:44

Edition 785 - Philip Kinsella

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Well, the good news today for me, as, you know, somebody who watches the weather fairly closely here in London, we all do as Brits because the weather's always changing here.
	It's kind of bright, but the cold spell that we had with the ice and the deep sub-zero temperatures seems to be clearing from now, and it seems to me that in the next few days we're going to lurch somehow into spring temperatures and spring weather.
	That here, though, means rain.
	So we seem to have a choice at the moment between icy cold, crispy with blue skies, rare enough here in London, and stormy and rainy and spring temperatures.
	We're heading back to that.
	So it's a sort of seesaw.
	There's no happy medium, it seems to me.
	Hope everything is all right with you.
	Thank you very much for all of your emails and communications.
	I do get to see all of them.
	And if you specifically require a reply or response, then please put on your email in the subject bar reply, response, required, and then I'll see it.
	I'm still a little bit behind with emails.
	But if you have sent one, please know that I have seen it.
	And if you've required a reply, then I should have replied by now.
	And if I haven't, send me a reminder.
	You know, the one thing about doing The Unexplained, which has been running now, as I keep telling you, for 18 years, is that it is a one-person operation.
	There's me and there's Adam who kindly gets it out to you.
	Thank you, Adam.
	And that is the entire thing.
	Yes, there's the radio show.
	That's a different thing.
	But the podcast and the putting together of the radio show, the selection of topics and guests and all the rest of it, that's all down to one person sitting at a second-hand computer in a ramshackle location.
	That is it.
	The whole thing.
	And in some ways, you know, I'd like a team of people and I'd like to be working in better conditions, but I'm quite proud that I'm able to reach as many people as I do doing it this way.
	But I do get to see all of the email, although sometimes I'm a little bit slower than I should be.
	And that's just down to me.
	That, I think, is all I have to say, unless you can tell me something that I've missed out that I should be referencing.
	I don't think there is.
	So, this edition of the show, going to be talking to another one of the authors of The Stable of Philip Mantl's Flying Disc Press.
	We've talked with him before.
	He works with his twin brother.
	It's Philip Kinsella, and the brother, of course, is Ronald Kinsella, very well known in the fields of ufology and investigating anomalous phenomena.
	Philip Kinsella has a book called Terrestrial Trespassers Out, The Greys, Abductions, and Areas of High Strangeness.
	I recommend the book.
	Very nicely written and a very interesting man we're about to speak with.
	So, having said all I need to say for now, thank God you're saying, let's get to the guest now, not too many miles away from where I'm sitting at the minute and in perfect crystal clear quality.
	Philip Kinsella, thank you very much for coming back on my show.
	Thank you very much for having me.
	I'm very honored, Howard.
	Now, Philip, you and your brother, Ronald, have been through many of these experiences together.
	He is your twin brother.
	As far as you know, and I don't think I've ever asked you this before, are you the only twins or twin brothers involved in the UFO field?
	Within our family, yes.
	I thought within the UFO department, I think there were a couple of other twins.
	I'm not sure what they were called, but certainly we appear to be the only two.
	But hey, we're all important.
	We're all unique.
	That's the way I see it.
	And do you think, because an awful lot of the people that I talk to, and an awful lot of the people who do these things are lone researchers, they have to do it all by themselves.
	Do you think that it has enabled you and facilitated you both to have that obvious bond?
	Yes, and I think it's wonderful because we both have differences of opinion where the phenomena is concerned.
	I mean, certainly we still don't know what we're dealing with.
	And that's why we work like many other researchers to some kind of theoretical content because that's all what they have at the moment.
	But with the two of us, it makes it stronger.
	I think if you're on your own, it's a little bit harder because you have to reach out to others to compare your notes or research material with them.
	So yeah, it does make things a lot easier for us because if there's a problem or a situation or something we're looking into, we can discuss it on two different angles, as it were.
	So we are very different, although we're identical twins.
	We have differences of opinions, not always working towards that same model of how we're viewing it.
	And another facet of that, I suspect, is that it's harder for debunkers to call you out because there are two of you and two of you have had experiences.
	One person standing alone, you know, you can easily, as people do, lob missiles towards one person standing alone.
	But two people standing together with the closest bond there is in humanity.
	That's a very powerful force, it seems to me.
	Yes, and I think the other thing that really fuels our interest within this is when you've been touched by this singularity, it changes you.
	And we live by a system that dictates to us that this is how it is and this is how things work.
	So, you know, anyone can claim anything, but one of the main reasons of our research and our experiences is due to the subsequent encounters that we had.
	We still don't understand to this day what was behind them or, you know, who was behind them, how it happened, why it happened.
	So I think, and for, yeah, anyone can make up any kind of story with regards to the phenomena.
	But we, both of us, are blessed and really honored to be linked with some of the finest minds within ufology and indeed within cryptozoology and the paranormal.
	And this is where I think, you know, our work's heading with regards to that truth, honesty and respect.
	That's what it's all about.
	And if you maintain that, if you continue that, then, you know, you're not going to go wrong by any means.
	We'll come back to this, but do you think, and we've talked about this before, do you think the abductors, and we'll get into details of that, do you think the abductors have been interested in you and your brother?
	Because you are twins, because they're interested in the genetics of that?
	Yes.
	Well, we don't want to be in the firing line because it doesn't make us in any way unique because a lot of people have abducted.
	but it does make sense, I think, if you have twins that have more or less the same genetic material.
	I'm not sure why.
	I think perhaps from their end, whoever, whatever these abductors are, seem very interested in not just the physicality, but also the psychological elements of what makes us tick, as it were.
	And they seem, interestingly enough, to know a lot more about us than we know about ourselves.
	So I do feel that perhaps even, you know, twins or triplets might be of interest to them.
	But we have to be careful, Howard, because some people out there would consider that to be a type of like an egotistical answer or way of looking at it.
	But we've been very practical.
	But yes, it just seems strange that many people within our family, bar from our maternal grandmother and a few others in the family, have been witness to the UFO phenomena.
	So I do think it is intergenerational.
	I think there is some connection link there which warrants the interest of these specters, as I call them, that seem to home in on certain individuals.
	Quite why we don't know, but it could be a possibility that twins may be a major interest to them.
	Your upbringing seems to me reading about you very middle class.
	And I mean that in a nice way.
	You had a nice, safe upbringing.
	You experienced different things.
	I think you even emigrated to South Africa for a year and a half or so.
	But you were brought up in nice places, in safe places.
	Do you think that was, again, a facilitator?
	Yes, I often wondered.
	You know, we've had a generous upbringing, very honored to have had that and very much loved by our family.
	But I also feel as well, too, that when this phenomenon presents itself, one wonders why.
	And of course, we question that.
	I mean, our maternal grandmother was psychic, and she had an experience with us when we were young with the silver orb.
	And, you know, when we look at the next generation of the family, nothing seems to have occurred.
	So there seems to be gaps within the family.
	I think humorously, I think it's like colorblindness.
	Our maternal grandfather was colorblind.
	It skipped a generation.
	And both my brother and I are to a degree, when I say to a degree colorblind, it's certain shades or colours.
	So I think that, you know, maybe perhaps the phenomena skips a generation.
	We don't know, but we were certainly brought up with a safe upbringing.
	You describe yourself in your biographical details as a clairvoyant, as well as doing this.
	Yes.
	But it does seem to me that you try to keep the two things separate.
	Why is that?
	Well, because of the stigmatism which is attached to this, because most people believe that a clairvoyant medium, or I prefer the word translator, is very separate from other paranormal activity.
	But I never claimed anything.
	These things just started.
	The psychic component was with me when I was a kid.
	And I always joked, Howard, and said, you know, there's the guy that's interested in UFOs and now he talks to the dead.
	I thought my reputation would go straight down the pen.
	But I'm like you and many others, a real investigator.
	I want to find out what makes things work.
	And a clairvoyant medium, one that used to work for the FBI in America on cold soul cases, that means that she would be brought in to try and find bodies that the FBI or the CIA or the police couldn't find, read for me and told me that you would make a connection between the psychic phenomena and the UFO phenomena.
	And of course, many years back then, I had no idea what she was talking about.
	But I think this is part of the problem.
	We've segregated certain subject matters, which do connect with elements of the paranormal, but they've been pigeonholed into separate boxes.
	And this is why I believe, Howard, we're not able to truly establish what it is we're dealing with because of that continual separation within these fascinating subjects.
	I think you're dead right.
	And I've been saying this for a long time.
	I think you've been saying it for longer than me, without a doubt, that we need to be moving more towards a unified theory of why these things happen and how these things happen.
	Otherwise, it seems to me there are dots to be joined.
	And if you don't have a unified theory or come towards one, you are never going to join those dots.
	Consequently, you will never get the answers.
	That's right.
	And dead right is the prerogative word I did mention.
	Yes.
	Sometimes I amuse myself.
	I think, and Phil, yes, I agree with you.
	I think that we have to now look into areas which warrants us as humans, what we represent on a human level, and going back into Genesis.
	I'm not going to get too deep into that area, but I think because we haven't made any further developments with regards to ufology since most notably the 1940s, 50s, 60s and upwards, you know, that this phenomenon has been around for a very long time.
	And unfortunately, there are certain parts within the UFO community which quite rightfully within their structured belief systems, you know, accept the hypothesis that we're dealing with actual physical nuts and bolts craft with biological entities.
	I'm not doubting that.
	But the phenomena presented does come with these levels of high strangeness, which are really incredible.
	And we start to see certain patterns or connecting those dots together in terms of that we as the human appear so very different from all of those elements of the paranormal which seems to integrate within our structured and physical biological system.
	So yes, I absolutely agree with you there, Howard, totally.
	It is difficult though, isn't it?
	Because there are reports through history, including Roswell that you talk about in the book.
	We'll come to that, of physical things being found and sometimes physical things being taken away.
	I have little doubt that they have been found and taken away.
	But, you know, they're tangible and touchable.
	The accounts of Roswell, the amazing metamaterial that was able to perform great feats of bending and shaping and stretching and all the rest of it.
	So there are physical aspects to it.
	But the hard thing to square, as you rightly say, is the fact that there are also mental and almost psychic aspects to all of it.
	Telepathic communication, people being shown visions of the future, things that happen that are weird people who come back from abduction experiences.
	Maybe you did.
	Changed people.
	So there are two elements here that seem to be at opposing poles.
	They're pulling against each other.
	Absolutely.
	You've got it.
	And as with us, there are two elements with us.
	We have the physical, biological nature.
	We also have the mental processing.
	We have to be careful because how can we differentiate fact from fiction in terms of a lot of people who have these mental processing of what they believe is happening to them?
	I also very much believe that there are physical attributes to this.
	But it is interesting, Howard, because when certain materials are found, interestingly enough, within, say, a crashed UFO or some kind of debris, the material seems to be a combination of some alien element and also human element.
	And, you know, I'm thinking to myself that maybe these entities are able to mold themselves, shape themselves into our physical dimension of reality.
	But at the same token, they have to utilize certain materials in order for them to build up.
	And this is where a lot of the really deep thinking and research has started to develop with both me and my brother and other researchers into thinking, well, you know, there are two aspects to us.
	We have the mental plane, the mental level, and also the biological.
	And the two seem to connect.
	And I always liken it to a mobile phone.
	You've got the physical structure, the hardware, and people think that's the phone.
	Well, it's not.
	The phone is actually the energy it's given and the signal, which is separate from the overall embodiment of the mobile phone.
	And we have energy and we have consciousness, which permeates this biological form temporarily, as it were.
	So I think that when we go back into the past, we're seeing elements of control, not just from other people, but from the system that we exist in, of this containment of conscious development.
	And I think this is why, because we've been programmed as a species to believe this and believe that of what we're told and remaining within a strict academic level of understanding, I think this is where the walls are starting to break down because people are beginning to realize that the mental processing, the mind actually creates.
	So I in no way doubt Roswald was physical, whatever came down there, and it still chills my bones when I think about it.
	And I have to say here very quickly, Howard, it makes me laugh that, you know, the military or the army back then stated that it was a weather balloon, a secret weather balloon, so secret that they didn't even know that it had crashed.
	It took a lone rancher to go and inform the establishment, certainly the police department, to tell them that their top secret mogul weather balloon had crashed.
	It's just like, you know, pulling the bullet.
	That's an aspect of it that I've never really considered.
	You know, if you're completely on top of it all, you're going to do a much better job of explaining the story than the one that we got.
	Yes.
	And also in another case, an incredible case with the wonderful Kathleen Martin, her auntie and uncle, as we all know, the very famous Betty and Barney Hill UFO abduction case.
	What happened there was that when Barney was being examined by these grey-like entities, and they examined Betty, obviously, and then Barney, and then because they were examined separately, and one of the examiners came in to try and pull Betty's teeth out, and she had to explain to the greys that Barney had dentures.
	And my argument is, so you're telling me that these aliens had come all the way from Zeta Reticuli to abduct a really loving couple, but couldn't work out that one of them had dentures.
	Now, that is another area, even though sometimes a little bit, you know, blasé.
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	So are you telling me this is the first time that these beings had encountered a human that wore dentures?
	And of course, this is where this leads us into areas of even incredible high strangeness.
	So yes, certainly, I think and feel most definitely that this phenomenon, this force that operates outside our reality seemingly operates on a level that completely astounds our human understanding of their physics or their reality, as it were.
	And I think, you know, when we try and merge the two, it's just not happening at the moment.
	But absolutely, I believe that there are biological entities in storage.
	I believe that they have the hardware, most notably.
	And like you, Howard, I would be there first in line.
	I'll tell you, I'll give my right arm to be there to see them.
	Well, they're probably listening now, so careful what you say.
	Careful what you wish for.
	And the aspect of this that plays to your clairvoyance, your psychic sense, I think, is the notion that if we want something, I'm talking about us as a species, it may well be delivered.
	That's been spoken to in the last 20 years with books like The Cosmic Ordering Service, written by the late and wonderful Burbel Moore, one of the first people I interviewed.
	The idea that actually it's not just a physical transactional universe that we live in.
	It could be a beyond physical transactional universe that we live in.
	And the reason that I'm saying that is I find in my life that if I want something, some kind of aim, or if I'm looking for a particular item, you know, maybe a bit of studio gear that I'm far too addicted to, if I think about it, one will appear.
	It will be brought to me.
	Maybe two will be brought to me.
	Silly example.
	On a personal level, I loved the old American Abercrombie sweatshirts that they used to sell 20 years ago, beautifully made of a kind of cotton you can't really buy unless you spend hundreds of pounds of dollars now.
	And I had one of them stolen in a hotel, and the others disappeared from my life in various ways.
	And I really missed them.
	And I tried, and I thought, and I thought, and I thought, I'd love to be able to get two of these back.
	Well, I thought about it very hard, and then the next thing on a well-known auction site in separate auctions, these things that almost never appear, appeared.
	Now, that's maybe just happenstance, but I've been missing these things for years, always wanted to replace them.
	When I actively started thinking about them and put it out there in a way, they were brought to me.
	So the point of that circuitous story is that perhaps if we demand, if we expect, If we program for revelations, not only as to what UFOs and UAPs are, but to the nature of this life that we lead, the more of us who do that, the more information may be brought to us.
	And that, I think, speaks to that clairvoyant side of you.
	Yes.
	Well, I think that our understanding of the brain and the way that I see it is merely a transmitter, a receiver, and a recorder.
	I think that, you know, the way that we shape our belief system, our structured belief system, opens up other corridors of reality.
	And this is interesting.
	And as I said, we have to be very, very careful because within the annals of clairvoyance, I'm very stringent, black and white, yes and no.
	Evidence has to be brought forward.
	Unfortunately, there are some people who are too wide within their conscious development and some people are too narrow within their field of intent.
	But what's interesting, absolutely, I believe that we can restructure or reprogram the way that we think.
	And think actually is thought, is consciousness.
	And I believe that consciousness is operating on a united level, perhaps.
	We're all connected into this pool of reality, of knowledge.
	Now, going back to the question of what we represent on a biological level, I believe that, you know, within science, academia, we've never really been given the answers about our genesis, about what we represent, where we come from.
	It's just all hearsay and it's all loosely worded.
	But I believe that, you know, we did an experiment on the 8th of June, 1998 at Rendlesham, just very quickly here, where we had wanted to bring a UFO into our reality.
	Now, that actually happened.
	That actually happened.
	It's been recorded.
	But the thing is, did we create that or was this force aware of our intentions through, you know, our wish, our wanting of it that it suddenly appeared?
	We don't know.
	I mean, it was there.
	It was physical.
	Three of us saw it.
	We witnessed it.
	So I believe that, you know, with regards to the phenomena, and this is why there are varied sectors within ufology, the love and light, the evil nature of the UFO naughts, and so on and so forth.
	It goes onwards and spreads out.
	But I believe that the experience is unique to the individual.
	And this is why I think we're having a really hard time trying to put everything into one box and saying that this is what it is.
	And this is why we go around in circles, because it's like, no, you're wrong and you're wrong and I'm right.
	And it's not like that.
	I think our journey, our genesis is very unique and individual.
	And I think that the experiences that we go through are perhaps reminding us that there is a much greater reality beyond the sphere of where we currently reside.
	So I absolutely on the page with you there, Howard, totally.
	Are there real beings, quotes, involved in all of this?
	We'll talk about the Greys in a moment because it's a central part of the book that we're here to discuss.
	Are there real beings out there or are they all constructs that we perceive because some energy out there is wanting us to perceive them that way?
	No, I believe that there are biological physical systems of reality and it's quite possible that they've found us through means that we can only imagine.
	I also believe it's possible that some of these biological entities, as it were, or these aliens as we call them, have found a way of projecting themselves into our reality.
	And perhaps they have a greater handle on consciousness or how to control consciousness awareness, how to manipulate time, space.
	And perhaps it's possible that they, you know, there's even the suggestion that they could remote view themselves within our system.
	That's another area of debate.
	So I absolutely totally believe that there are other, you know, biological entities out there, physical and planets with that harbor life.
	But it's interesting, isn't it, how we have a multi-cultural aspect with regards to these entities.
	You've got the reptilians, you've got the mantis, you've got the greys.
	I mean, it goes on.
	I mean, I always joke and say to researchers, can you tell me what bar they're all hanging out in?
	Because I'd like to go down and have a word with them, you know, and have a drink with them.
	So we're wondering, where are they?
	Where exactly are they?
	And we get these reports of crashed UFOs absolutely, totally without question, they happen.
	But we also have a system in place, which we all know, where the secret military elite obviously have their standardized operations of recovery.
	But what's interesting is that with regards to these crash sites, that most of these UFOs do, nearly all of them, come down in remote areas.
	So one wonders whether or not there's a deliberation from the UFO not to do this for some unknown reason, or whether or not they are actually shot down by the military that have an operations unit in function where they can actually track them.
	So we don't know.
	So I think that there are two aspects to this, Howard.
	I believe that there are those that are biological and physical in nature within our system of reality and found a way through to us.
	And there are others perhaps that come on an interdimensional level of reality.
	So we have to be open to all forms of speculation, as you know, but it is very fascinating, isn't it?
	It's very fascinating.
	And I promise you we will get into the book after this question.
	At the moment, we're at the beginning of a new year where apparently we're taking more steps towards disclosure.
	I use the word apparently, advisedly, because I wonder whether it actually will happen.
	I think it's the Senate Intelligence Committee again next who will be at the forefront of this, but we'll see.
	You know, we're at the receiving end of information that comes to us from the other side of the Atlantic here in the UK, aren't we, Philip?
	But that's where we're at.
	And it seems to me we've seen a certain amount of, quotes, revelation, whistleblowers, David Grush appearing on the scene, people like that.
	And some of us say, hum, goody-goody, this is it.
	Then they're going to open the books and the files.
	And then we take, having taken five steps forward, we take 10 steps back.
	You go to a lot of conferences, you know a lot of people.
	On the basis of what you know, where do you think we're at?
	Well, Howard, I have to say I'm not really sure.
	I don't believe that that disclosure will come anytime soon.
	And, you know, I have to say with my hand on my heart, I believe that Grush is telling the truth.
	I mean, we all have our differences of opinions.
	You know, there's no reason for him to come forward.
	And of course, if someone's being honest, there's going to be the other people coming forward to make up their terminology of what they believe is really going on.
	But I believe that, you know, they do have these crafts, or at least the debris of these crafts, they probably have them intact.
	They also have these bodies on cryogenic freeze or whatever.
	And I think that if the system was to admit to the public that we are being visited by, you know, intelligences not from here, they can have a hard time trying to explain this, not just that the phenomena is real.
	And, you know, we understand that, you know, people are worried about the religious structuring that might be damaged through this, but I don't believe that that will really be affected.
	I think that the system we serve is doing its damnedest to subjugate humanity and to make us believe that, you know, we have simple lives, that we're literally biological entities with cell by date, you know, and that we live in die.
	We pay our taxes.
	And then opening this will open something that I don't believe that the system feels it will be able to control.
	So there could be nefarious reasons behind this.
	There could be very good reasons behind this.
	Hey, there's a combination of both elements that are always there that we have to deal with.
	But I think this goes much further than just the appearance of these aliens that come from another dimension and why they secrete themselves from us.
	And I know there's people out there that will tell you, well, it's a cosmic code.
	Well, they've already broken that cosmic code.
	They're here.
	You see, this is the way I see it.
	It's like, I don't believe that we'll get any real information.
	It seems to be surrounded by red tape all the time.
	This system obviously is at pains to cover something that is such a huge reality.
	And there's so many good people out there, Howard, wonderful people who are trying so hard to convince the public to say, look, it's like us when we saw the, you know, the UFO with our grandmother and then the appearance of the UFO at Rendlesham.
	And then, of course, the so-called abduction.
	I call it so-called because we're still not sure what happened, although it came in levels of high strangeness.
	And also the 9th of April 2016 appearance of the three UFOs that presented themselves.
	You're telling people it's real and they're looking at you thinking, no, you're lying.
	And you're trying to explain to them, this is what happened.
	So I can understand from those witnesses or those whistleblowers trying to come forward.
	So I have nothing but respect for them, Howard.
	To the book, Terrestrial Trespassers, The Greys, Abductions and Areas of High Strangeness.
	You begin, after the prologue and the introduction, in fact, during those things, to question the nature of the Greys, the most famous and potentially worrying of the aliens, because they do seem to be so impenetrable as characters, if you want to call them that.
	Do you have any thoughts on who might be the Greys?
	Towards the end of the book, you say the Greys are, we can assume, harvesters of DNA material, and perhaps it doesn't end with us humans either.
	We must also take into consideration the varied animal mutilations that occur around the world and which the authorities are at pains to hide from the public.
	I mean, it's the first question that you address in the book, it seems to me, before going into a lot of other material.
	What are your thoughts on the Greys?
	Well, they're very interesting, and they are one of the most famous entities within the departments of ufology.
	The experience I had back in 1989 warranted two parts to the experience.
	One was physical, one was non-physical.
	I wondered how this was possible.
	And this led me into areas of what the greys were, why it is that they seem to come across like a blank canvas.
	They have no personality.
	They don't understand about the elements of love, of compassion, of creativity, of time, of aging, of food, of all these things.
	It seems like they've been denied this through their existence.
	And I think perhaps it's possible that they are interested within our biology, within our physiology, as well as mental processing.
	Sorry, but I believe that there's some kind of operational program that they've implemented.
	And interestingly enough, through some kind of hybridization program, which we hear a lot of.
	I mean, when I had my experience, I didn't see any of that.
	But we hear this most notably all of the time.
	And how the greys are able to take us from this reality into their reality with a sense of no time being administered.
	And I believe that these specters are very interested in reproduction, in creation, but also what makes us as humans.
	And they secrete themselves within the shadows.
	You know, and I know that there's the argument most people think they're love and light.
	I'm not disputing that.
	But a lot of the encounters that we experience are not and do not operate upon that level of total compassion or understanding.
	So I believe that there's a lot more behind the greys that we currently understand in terms of what they may represent, other than the definition of them being spacemen coming from another planet, because they're able to integrate within our reality through means that literally boggle the mind.
	They come through walls.
	They're able to read our minds.
	They're able to really get into the mind.
	And also with regards to the operations or the medical procedures that they carry out and seemingly still are doing to this day.
	And it makes you ask the question, when you talk about the medical procedures that they carry out, the question that came into my mind was at the behest of whom or what?
	Yes, that's right.
	A united force, a united consciousness.
	This is possible.
	I mean, if we think about it, we appear to be connected, I think, on a major level to a united consciousness.
	People call it God or, you know, some kind of vast intelligence, like a pool of information or a networking system that's creating, I believe, that perhaps our genesis is all about, you know, creating memories, experiences, like someone creating many films, and that when we finished our journey here, our experiences, our memories, ourselves are sent back into that pool that expands upon the process of creation.
	But this is the thing, you see, we are a reproductive species and the greys are not.
	They don't come across as a reproductive species.
	They cannot reproduce.
	And this is very interesting because why are they interested in a biological system that can reproduce?
	They seem to be very interested in that.
	And this led me into other areas of the research in terms of why are they doing this?
	The force behind them, I don't think we're seeing them as they really are.
	My brother says The same thing.
	He believes that we're seeing something that is not really them.
	There is something else behind that mask, as it were.
	So, you know, the greys can alter the way that we perceive our reality, and they're very clever at doing that.
	I have to tell you.
	Well, you know, and you've talked extensively about the first experience in 1989.
	You say in the book, and I quote, my life shattered in 1989, literally.
	The reality of this world diminished by the onslaught of what is known within ufology as an alien abduction.
	This travesty, interesting choice of word there, has left me broken, confused, and angry.
	During this point, I'd never believed that, quotes, visitors not from this world could take me from my home and under the most bizarre circumstances.
	Let's start with the word travesty.
	Yes, well, within that time, I had no idea what had happened.
	I knew what had happened, but I always assumed that, you know, that, you know, UFOs and aliens were loving, benevolent, kind.
	The experience was raw and savage.
	And when I still look back at it, I hear people say, oh, you know, it's because it's the way that, you know, you're translating it.
	It must have been a wonderful experience.
	It was anything but wonderful.
	And how on earth was I able to come forward to state to people, even as a budding writer them, oh, it's because he's got an imagination.
	So what you're telling me is that you have to be a blank canvas in order to have an experience.
	So I believe that the travesty of this and the mockery of this, through my interpretation of it, was savage.
	It was raw, Howard, because, you know, I still to this day can't understand what or why this happened to me.
	And the appearance of these entities was shocking.
	Three of them, and I have to state here, categorically, now we can talk openly about this, three of them were reptilian.
	There was some greys as well, too.
	Now, when the experience had concluded, how on earth was I to come forward to state to people, oh, well, I've been abducted by reptilian aliens and the greys, and even a publisher who published one of my books many long years ago through a contract, publishing contract, when I actually wrote about the abduction, he told me that I had to remove the part in there about reptilians because people wouldn't be able to put the pieces together.
	And you've only got to look at the amount of ridicule that, for example, David Icke received when he talked about reptilians.
	This was an experience, though, that unusually, maybe you appeared to be sort of conscious and thinking your way through, because in the book, you describe that you were transported from effectively your home through a window up to a craft that was waiting by the conservatory.
	I think I've got that right.
	And you were able to rationalize and think about the process and think to yourself the question all of us would ask, how are they able to do this?
	That is a bit unusual, isn't it?
	Yes.
	I mean, when the episode had concluded on board what they call a UFO, it certainly appeared that way to me.
	There was another grey that I had been presented with who was uniformed and had this very pointed hat on his head.
	And I seemed to recognize him on some level, not sure where.
	But I was interested in how they were able and I was able to get through solid matter because of the rawness of the experience that I'd gone through, which was very traumatic.
	This grey, I thought, you know what, you're going to tell me.
	You're going to tell me how this works, how you work, what you are.
	Because once you give me that answer, once I have it, I can tell the world that you are real, that this is how you do it.
	But what's interesting, Howard, is that primarily at the beginning of this episode on that fateful day, or it was night, my brother had gone into a trance when the atmosphere changed and the small being came through the door.
	He raised his head up to the ceiling and said, there's going to be an earthquake or grandma's going to die and seemed to freeze.
	Now, this character that I call noddy, endearingly noddy, when I asked him the question about how it was, how the hell am I able to get through solid matter, he looked at me shocked and then he slowly raised his head to the underneath of the craft and he froze and he started to come out with all this mechanical garble.
	And I do know that there's another researcher, Pierre Sebeck, who made those connections with regards to what happened to my twin brother and what the grey was doing as though it was kind of distorting something.
	So yes, I was fully conscious regarding that episode, but wondering how on earth I could go through solid matter.
	And how I've had people telling me, well, it's because the greys had used a tractor beam or something like this.
	And I'm like, okay, fine.
	But, you know, for my experience, it seemed very different.
	And trying to put those parts together with regards to abduction is very difficult.
	And so I've had to live with that.
	And I've dealt with it quite well now.
	I've kind of like put it on the shelf.
	But it's important, I say, to anyone out there who has an experience, for goodness sake, please be honest and to the point.
	Don't add or subtract anything.
	Just keep it as it is.
	You know, but that was really strange.
	So in answer to your question, Howard, yes, I was consciously aware, but unable to move, was not in control of my functioning in terms of like, you know, physicality.
	And amazingly, I wanted to find out afterwards how on earth they did what they did.
	And I had been left with physical marks, of course, with a triangle mark behind my right ear, the profuse nosebleeds to the right nostril.
	I had three marks on my right arm and the rest of it.
	But this is back in 1989.
	And I know that Jenny Randalls had phoned me and my brother.
	She was very kind to both of us.
	Just for our American listeners and listeners in other parts of the world, Jenny Randalls, who I think is now partially retired in this field, if I'm right in that.
	But Jenny Randles is somebody I remember speaking to when I was a kid about all of this.
	She's in the northwest of England, and she is literally a founder, trailblazer in this field in the United Kingdom.
	Sorry, you were saying.
	Yes, absolutely.
	And where the credit is rightfully administered with regards to Jenny Randles.
	And she was more interested in the fact of us being twins.
	And I believe that she did Ask us about, you know, the psychic component, whether or not we are connected on that level, which was very interesting.
	With regards to the remembering, recalling, absolutely.
	Whereas most people don't.
	And this is the thing that really bustled me.
	I'm like, well, I was able to recall the experience, but some people are not.
	But there again, I'm very hard to hypnotize.
	Someone tried to do it once in terms of memory or go through to regression.
	I couldn't do it, Howard.
	They couldn't put me under.
	Me too.
	I once went through that and, you know, I was just as conscious as I think I am now.
	That's interesting, Philip.
	So look, this was an unpleasant experience, wasn't it?
	I mean, you write about being strapped to a bed and naked.
	I mean, that is something that brings recollections of talking to Whitley Streeber and what happened to him.
	Yes, you know, I do know about Whitley Striber.
	I've never spoken to the great man himself, and I've always admired his work and his research.
	But yes, the experience, when I was taken through the glass doors to the conservatory and I was pulled up to this awaiting craft, there seemed to be a little bit of gap of time.
	And then I awoke to find myself on this very hard bed in this quite dingy room.
	It was quite dark.
	There was some light ahead of me directly to my left.
	But when I awoke or when I was aware, it was horrific because it was very hot and I had no idea where I was.
	It's rather like, you know, you suddenly, you know, if you're kidnapped, for instance, and you're drugged, I'm not saying I was drugged in any way because I've anything like that.
	And then you find you wake up and you're disorientated because you don't know where you are, what's going on.
	And the realization of the horror that this is happening to you is something that really integrates on a very mental, psychological level.
	And when I saw the appearance of those three beings, what we will call reptilians, they were quite huge.
	And that was it.
	I'd never seen anything like it in my life.
	But there was also this feeling of absolute fear that they, was it being projected from me or was it being projected from them?
	I don't know.
	I couldn't tell you.
	But it was absolutely bizarre.
	And there was a procedure that was carried out quite embarrassingly.
	And that was another thing that really horrified me because the implementation of this device was inserted into the low abdominal region, but I could feel it within either the bowel or the lower stomach as though it was pulsating.
	So the realization of that struck me that this was not normal, that where I was was not normal, that these beings, my mind couldn't kind of register what I was looking at in terms of these are reptilians, they're there, they're physically there, but my mind couldn't assess where they come from or what was going on.
	And of course, at that point, I started to scream and I was begging them to remove the implement from where it was.
	It was an awful experience.
	And it was one that I still to this day cannot understand.
	And of course, I had to live through, and I'm not here for sympathy, but the shame of that, the real shame.
	Not only do you claim, as most people would state, that you have been abducted by reptilians and greys, but also that you had this procedure.
	And, you know, I think anyone that goes through an experience of this kind, and I'm talking about those good, genuine folk out there because there's a lot of them, you know, I understand on the emotional level what they go through because it took me a long time for me to get things together.
	And that's when some years later I connected with the UFO group.
	And this led then to me connecting with other good people.
	I mean, some experiences we have to take with a pinch of salt.
	But I wanted to find out what happened, what they were, and why it happened.
	And of course, to this day, Howard, we only have theoretical content which we can deal with, but that's better than nothing at the end of the day.
	So the experience itself was raw.
	And yes, I do use the word savage because I've had people saying to me, some others in the UFO community, you know, eventually it's like anyone that goes through a traumatic experience.
	They'll kind of come to some understanding that it was all meant to be.
	No, it wasn't.
	You know, if, you know, we pre-plan our journey on the other side, there was no way that I have asked for these things to come in and do what they were doing.
	So, yeah, but this could have led to other experiences, deeper experiences that both my brother and I had experienced back in our childhood, because a lot of people who have had so-called abductions, and I say so-called because we still don't know what it's called.
	That's our terminology of it.
	You'll find that they have memories, and it's not because they've just surfaced, but memories that you start to question and you say, well, you know, that was odd.
	And why I kept dreaming of this and why I kept seeing that.
	So I believe this phenomena this force is able to very cleverly integrate itself on a very deep level within the human mind.
	And it is secretion.
	They want it buried.
	But eventually, I believe that these things start to surface.
	And some people deal with it very well.
	Other people don't.
	And thank goodness we have professional people out there who actually are able to talk to and kind of understand.
	I think that's a wonderful thing that I believe within ufology, where other people understand and they're there to listen to you and to try and work things out from their level of understanding.
	And let's register the fact here that if you read the book, and I recommend you do, the book will tell you that the experiences of Philip and his brother Ronald go back to the age of four.
	They include weird dreams, even at one point seeing a cathedral behind your home that wasn't really there, but all sorts of weird stuff that were a precursor to this main event in 1989.
	After that had happened, obviously we reflect on these things.
	Did it happen to Ronald also?
	Or was he just the listener to your stories about it?
	Well, my brother had an experience many years before.
	And it's interesting that his was seven years before, and I am seven minutes older than him.
	I'm not saying that the Greys or the Aliens have some kind of a weird thing about time, but he saw doctors.
	I mean, we lived then in Luton when he had his experience.
	And we shared a room, we lived in a big Victorian house, and we shared a bedroom me and my brother.
	And he remembered being taken up towards the ceiling through to the loft and then seeing a very dark object.
	And when he awoke as well, he found himself in a wheelchair and he saw these doctors, he called them doctors, that were dressed in these weird suits.
	He couldn't see their faces, but there was a male behind him, he knew it was a male because he spoke to him.
	And the male said, We're going to perform an operation on you, Ronald.
	And when he said Ronald's name, my brother flinched because he knew that this well-spoken in English language man, he couldn't call him a man because he didn't know he could see and was behind him, knew who he was.
	And my brother instantly knew that there would be a procedure upon his brain.
	He just had this feeling that it was and that the doctors ahead of him were waiting for him at the tape, this operating table.
	When he was, and I use the word ejected from the craft, I like that word how we do have a sense of humor now.
	When he was released from the craft, when he was coming down, he remembered going through the loft, and there was this strange pulsation feeling he was experiencing.
	And when his body touched the bed, it was like a real realization that he'd actually made contact back in this physical realm.
	And of course, there was the appearance of what he calls the Cheshire Cat, but a nightmare version on a holographic version.
	And he's always maintained that these visitors had, you know, used some kind of insurance policy with regards to the appearance of this face, that if he went to a, say, a counselor or a psychologist or whoever, not that he did, they would say, oh, you've been down the rabbit hole.
	You've been watching too much of Alice in Wonderland.
	So I believe that these visitors, what they did, and even though he was young, was kind of like perhaps trying to cover themselves in this way.
	So he had one major experience.
	That was one of them.
	And mine was in 1989.
	So I don't recall any other so-called abductions, but I am absolutely convinced, although I'm not there just to, you know, say that I've been abducted multiple times, there could have been other times.
	And I remembered when we were going through the pandemic, there was a moment where I woke up in the early hours of the morning to the sound of rumbling and something had happened across my neck.
	I got scarring across my neck.
	Did something happen?
	Well, no, I don't know because I'm very practical and black and white.
	If I remember it, then I will register it.
	If I don't, I can't say any more about it.
	So, yeah, so he had one major one then and I had one majorly in 1989.
	And interestingly, when my brother had his experience with these doctors, that was the same year that we had seen the silver orb with our maternal grandmother in Felton, Middlesex on that summer's evening, our late afternoon evening.
	People say to you, Howard, oh, what time was it?
	Well, we were kids, you know.
	It's like I'm not going to run and get a little diary in my summer evening.
	That's all you need to know, really.
	Sometime between the hours of 6 p.m., 5.30 p.m. and 10 o'clock in the evening in Feltham.
	Yes, yes.
	But look, okay, let's just get to this point then.
	The fact that you have a brother who'd been through weird things too will, I guess, have made things easier for you because you have someone to talk with.
	But what did everybody else make, if you told anybody else, of what happened to you in 1989?
	Well, I mean, I did tell my brother and my family.
	They're very supportive.
	But because they didn't understand or they, you know, in terms of our acknowledgement of the UFO phenomena, it just remained in that level of high strangeness.
	And I was contacted.
	I was contacted.
	I've never sought out any media cartel.
	I was contacted by a television network and I was assured that I would be going on for all the right reasons.
	And of course, they weren't the right reasons.
	It was a mockery, to be honest with you.
	And that kind of like dented my understanding of it.
	But, you know, with regard to the family, I think my grandmother, she, I remembered when we saw the orb and that we were up in the third floor in the bedrooms up there.
	They had it.
	She had a winding staircase.
	My grandparents had a winding staircase that went down to the hall.
	She had the telephone booth there and she was talking to a family member about it.
	And strangely enough, nothing more was said about it whatsoever.
	I mean, it was acknowledged by the family, and that was it.
	And with regards to these areas of high strangeness, you find that it seems to get buried or it's almost like you have to forget it.
	Not that I forgot it, but other members don't want to talk about it because they can't deal with it or it's something that seems to perhaps in some ways contradict their understanding of reality.
	So, you know, but now today, thankfully, there are a lot more people who are understanding of it and are trying to put the pieces together.
	It is a little bit of a difficult journey because you've got to sift through a lot of stuff that doesn't seem to be relevant.
	But yes, certainly, I agree with you there, Howard, most definitely.
	The events of 2016, April 2016, stand out again in the book.
	And you say in the book, one of the most incredible events within my life was about to happen again.
	This time, the 9th of April 2016, 11.15 p.m. at night.
	I think you were driving.
	You saw three triangular lights.
	And that was a night when you later discovered, which is not the way things happen in 1989, but you later discovered that on that night of April the, what was it, 9th of 2016, a lot of other people had had experiences too.
	Yes, that's right.
	I went to do a talk at a conference and I was met by a gentleman called Dave Twine, who is sadly no longer on this side of life.
	And he wanted to reach out to me to tell me that they had also seen a group of them had been out sky watching and seen these objects being trapped across Great Britain.
	And Andy Thomas, another great guy, urologist and a researcher, when he looked, when I did another conference and he looked at the map that I showed him of this, where we kind of like figured where they traveled from, he said that the UFO seemed to be traveling along a ley line, the St. Michael and Mary ley line.
	And I thought that was very interesting.
	So these objects had been seen.
	Now, what's interesting, We'd finished an early birthday meal, although it was late, but we were having an early birthday celebration because our birthday is on the 12th of April.
	And I was driving back with my brother.
	And it was late, it was cold, it was clear.
	And driving back from Copel onto the bypass coming into Kempston, we clocked these three huge lights in triangular formation.
	But little did I realize that quite a little while before, my niece, who had also attended the mill and drove her mother back, my sister, as they were driving back to Marston and Lower Shelton, when my niece had dropped her mother off, my niece had clocked the UFOs in triangular formation.
	She stopped the car and she filmed them.
	And then she tried to contact me on my mobile phone to tell me that they were on their way.
	And when she was trying to contact me on my mobile phone that I had when we exited the car, we saw these objects very low right above us.
	They were huge.
	I was like, well, they're here.
	And I didn't answer my phone because I was more amazed by what we were seeing.
	But the strange thing was no one, we've got a, you know, we're down a fairly quiet road, but it's a Saturday, it was a Saturday night.
	No one was coming back from the pub.
	No one was walking their dog.
	There was no one around at all, apart from me and my brother, that was staring up at these incredible objects that were luminous.
	They were white.
	They were spherical in nature.
	They were in a triangular formation.
	And they did a very strange maneuver, one of them did, before they all maneuvered themselves into a line and moved off very quickly.
	Now, what's interesting how is the very next day on the 10th of April, there was a helicopter, a white helicopter that came over our house very low, very low indeed.
	And when we'd gone outside to have a look in the back garden looking up, and it was dark, it was a lot earlier than the time specified that we saw the UFOs at quarter past 11 at night.
	The pilots and the helicopter had positioned the helicopter so that it was kind of like at an angle so that we could see the pilots.
	And they were moving around in a circle three times, like here we are.
	And I'm like, I don't understand this.
	And the devious part of my mind thought, well, if anyone reported seeing those three UFOs, is it possible that if they phoned the authorities, oh, no, it was a helicopter?
	Because we now are very stringent with our times and dates, but some people get mixed up with times and dates, you know?
	So I don't know.
	That was really bizarre, but absolutely awe-inspiring.
	And again, there we are.
	Do we have any proof?
	Not on your Nellie.
	The only thing we have is my niece's recording of them.
	And Jason Glees actually took that footage and I said, just do it.
	Just find out what they are.
	I want to know.
	And he said, Philip, we don't know.
	They're not conventional aircrafts.
	They're three independent objects.
	And Dave Tyne also said that he believed, and Jason Gleaves also found out, that the objects were kind of like flashing inwardly, like they were communicating with one another on some level.
	How true that is, we don't know.
	I can't prove that, and neither can anyone else.
	But we didn't see them flashing when they were presented themselves to me and my brother, very low and very large.
	But it appears that that's exactly what they may have been doing.
	So again, we don't know.
	But when they shot off, Howard, when they moved, it was like they're on glass and they were in perfect alignment from one gap to the other.
	You could measure it with a ruler.
	It was incredible.
	And I know there was some debate with another UFO group who said, well, it couldn't have been, of course, it couldn't be quarter past 11.
	It must have been quarter past 10.
	And I said to them, listen to me.
	I'm telling you that those objects were at 11.15, whatever other objects you tracked, I said, I'm just going to tell you as it is.
	I can't change that and I won't.
	It was 11.15 p.m. at night.
	How interesting.
	And you know, could they have been ours?
	Could they have been theirs?
	Could they have been a hybrid between the two?
	We simply cannot know.
	But I'm glad that you got Jason Gleaves at YouFonly to analyze those.
	I get a lot of people sending me images.
	And of course, I don't have equipment that can analyze images.
	I only have recording equipment for doing podcasts.
	And that's all I understand, really.
	So I really do recommend those people to, if they have images, to submit them maybe to a local newspaper if you want to be in the papers.
	If you don't mind being in the papers is the way I should be putting it.
	Or somebody like Jason Gleaves or maybe Jason himself, who's a very busy guy, who has the equipment and the expertise to look at them.
	Because I'm very interested to hear the stories.
	In terms of in-depth image analysis, I can't do that, but it's very important stuff.
	Now, look, there are so many things in this book.
	And I think it's useful that you do.
	You go back through Roswell, Tungusker, Rendlesham, the Betty and Barney Hill case, the famous Beryn Mountains case in Wales, which was explained away as an earthquake and a meteor shower, that if you read about that, not only in your book, but elsewhere, there was a hell of a lot more to the Beryn Mountains case than that.
	Towards the end of the book, you talk about cryptids, which is an interesting road to go down and one that I understand why you have gone down that road.
	You talk about the dogmen, for example, but you tell me, why did you bring cryptids into this?
	Well, with our very strong and wonderful connection with British researcher Paul Sinclair, you know, we became friends and he was very interested within his research with regards to the werewolf or as known as dogman.
	And what's interesting is that, you know, with regards to these cryptids, they seem to communicate with their witnesses via telepathy in more cases than not.
	And what's interesting is that Paul told me an episode where one group of people or person, I can't remember who it was, Howard, but they had witnessed one of these werewolves and it was wearing an earring.
	And you're like, well, you're kidding me.
	So with Paul and with us and many others, I believe that the phenomena, we have to work out whether or not we're dealing with separate entities that are interdimensional in nature.
	And I don't doubt that at all.
	But are we dealing with one force or are we dealing with multiple forces within these levels of high strangeness?
	And I believe it's important because there are certain connections to be made with regards to when a cryptid suddenly appears, it gets weird with regards to no sounds being heard.
	Sometimes there are loud bangs or crashes.
	And then, Of course, this mind speakers they call it, and I'm like, Well, the greys and other aliens do this, and even you know, those departed loved ones of ours from the other side do the same thing.
	There is some kind of mental exchange.
	So, I believe that I wanted to address this because you know, if this is just a figment of the imagination that we have created within the mind that's become a reality, and let's say, for instance, finding its way through the ether and presenting itself, why aren't we being invaded by Dar Phaedra or the Darlitz or stormtroopers or Harry Potter wizards?
	It seems interesting how certain traits with regards to this, like the werewolf, the Sasquatch, and other beings are seen.
	So, although I wanted to include this in the book, and it doesn't mean to say, oh, you know, it's all connected, like it's all one of the same thing.
	We have to be open to those forms of speculation because going back once again, Howard, the question is, where are they?
	Where do they exist?
	Where are they coming from?
	And why do they target only certain individuals?
	Whereas others, they don't.
	There's been experiences where some people see UFO and other people who are there don't see it.
	It's almost as if the phenomena is morphing itself within the deeper aspects of our psychology or the individual going through the experience.
	Is this for their change, for them to change?
	Is this some kind of evolution for the individual going through it?
	We don't know.
	But that's what I include that.
	It's a very interesting book.
	And I think, you know, the discussions that you have of well-known cases are very valid to have in here.
	And I'll tell you why.
	If somebody is coming new to this subject, and I know from my correspondence that people are coming to this all the time, it's very hard to find primers in the subject.
	It's very hard to find books that you can read, information sources that you can go to that will give you a complete overview, a complete understanding, so you can then go forward and do more of your own research.
	And I think this book is one of those things.
	There are many, many aspects to it.
	I congratulate you on it because it's number one, well written and illustrated, and also it's approachable.
	I think that's the nice thing about it.
	For somebody who doesn't know anything about this, for somebody who doesn't necessarily come to it from the point of view of, I want to be convinced, somebody who just comes to it with a completely flat and open mind, I think this is a good starting point.
	One final question, Philip.
	The clairvoyant and mediumship aspect of what you are and what you do, does it ever?
	I think the answer's gonna be yes, but let's see.
	In other words, when you're in the mode where you might be communicating, if people believe that, they can believe it or not, as the case may be.
	That's not really relevant to what we're saying now, but if you are communicating with those who've departed and passing on information, do you sometimes see things that isn't a departed loved one?
	Things that aren't a departed loved one?
	Things that may be extraterrestrials or strange creatures beyond our conscious realm of understanding?
	Not very well put by me, but you know where I'm going.
	I understand, Howard.
	No, I don't.
	And this is the thing.
	I mean, some people will claim all sorts of things, but the way I'm seeing it is there seems to be a separation between those who have crossed over that bring their evidence to the table and certainly aspects of the UFO phenomena.
	However, I will say what's interesting, and I can't prove this, but I put my hands on the Bible and tell you I'm telling you the truth.
	I see their lights, spirit lights they call them, and people have got it all worked out telling you what they are, where they come from.
	No, no, no, we can't do that.
	What's interesting is that these lights come in very, very bright, and not through peripheral vision, direct vision, and they come in different colours.
	Now, what's interesting is that UFO phenomena comes in larger light forms, and they seem to be able to overpower the environment or the individual when they come in, almost like mesmerizing the mind of the individual.
	And I know that Barry Fitzgerald has his own theory about that, but certainly light phenomena.
	I think this is leading us into the quantum realm or erasing to a field of study that is very heavy to try and understand.
	But within the quantum field, there is an area of potentiality where anything and everything could be a possibility.
	So we're looking into that area and going back very quickly, Howard, to her amazing description of the human mind.
	My goodness, the mind is the gateway to all that is and ever will be.
	And I think through the creation mythos, this is going to teach us a lot more about these alternative realities, these dimensions of reality, or how we view reality ourselves.
	So absolutely.
	No, a wonderful question.
	And I believe it's open, but no, I don't see any connections through those, through the dead, or I'm being tricked from an evil spirit.
	I'm like, come on, give me a break.
	But no, I keep them separate, but there are parallels to be made in terms of the way it's done, the way it operates.
	Well, to you and your brother, keep asking the questions, Philip, is what I would say.
	Thank you so much.
	The book is Terrestrial Trespassers, The Grey's Adductions and Areas of High Strangeness.
	It is published by Philip Mantle's Flying Disc Press, and I think it's out now, isn't it?
	You can get it now.
	Philip Mantle told me, yes, tell the viewers or whoever that you can get.
	So, yeah, so bless his heart.
	So I'm very honored.
	And I have to say, just very quickly here, truth, integrity, honesty, respect, that's what we're all about.
	And we're so proud to be linked with others who are within that same mindset.
	So, and I thank you very much, Howard, for having me on your show.
	I'm very honored indeed.
	And as a famous song title once said in the 1970s or 80s, I think it was, I second that emotion.
	Somebody will tell me who had the hit with that.
	But there you go.
	I should know these things.
	Philip Kinsella, thank you very much for your time.
	Thank you very much, Howard.
	An honor.
	Thank you very much.
	Philip Kinsella, very, very interesting, thought-provoking material, don't you think?
	Remember, of course, to check out my website, theunexplained.tv, and, of course, be part of my Facebook page, the official Facebook page of The Unexplained with Howard Hughes.
	More great guests in the pipeline here at the Home of the Unexplained online.
	So until we meet again, my name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained, and please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, stay warm, and above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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