Edition 770 - Barry Fitzgerald, Chris Rutkowski, Karen Dahlman & Dr Grover Proctor
Some highlights from my radio show - Barry Fitzgerald in Sligo, Ireland about a mysterious low frequency "hum" that's making news, respected Canadian UFO researcher Chris Rutkowski with an update, Ouijologist Karen Dahlman's reaction to an "AI Ouija Board"... And , on the JFK assassination 60th anniversary, Dr Grover Proctor on the strange prison-cell phone call Lee Harvey Oswald tried to make to a mysterious man in Raleigh, North Carolina...
Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is definitely Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Hoping that everything is good with you, thank you for all of the emails that you sent through my website, theunexplained.tv and the messages that you put on my official Facebook page.
Nice to know that you're there and nice to know that by and large, in many things that I do, I have your support.
It's a good feeling.
Not easy times for any of us, these feeling very depleted these days.
I don't know what it is.
You know, since I came back from the trip, I've just felt a little run down.
But I'm not going to give you a report on the state of my health.
It's probably to do with the weather, which is partly grey and partly sunny at the moment.
We've had some very, very grey days, a lot of rain here in London, and now there's just a little tiny beam of sunshine.
In fact, I'm going to open my curtain, that's that noise there, just to let a little bit more of it onto my console and onto me, because it just makes me feel good.
Hope everything is okay with you.
Like I say, keep the emails coming.
Good to hear from you.
If your email requires a reply, then please put reply or response required in the subject line, and then I will get back to you.
I'm a little behind on the emails and a little behind on the guest booking, but I'm going to put what remains of my back into it as soon as I can.
Thank you very much for being part of my show.
Thanks to Adam for his work on getting the shows out to you as ever, my webmaster.
Some items from my radio show here.
They are very varied, but I think they should be here for posterity.
The UAP issue has gone, is in the process of going very quiet.
Now, this could be the calm before the storm.
There could be a torrent of information about to come out any day now.
We simply don't know.
So I caught up with Chris Rutkowski in Canada, leading Canadian UFO expert, and decided to get a view from him and also catch up with him.
So that's here.
Second item, Barry Fitzgerald, a paranormal investigator, writer, and good guy based in Ireland, talking about a mysterious hum that people are hearing, not only around Oma, which has made the news on the BBC in Northern Ireland this last couple of weeks, but also in other places across Ireland.
And I know that some of you here in the United Kingdom are experiencing it too, and indeed my listeners in various parts of the world.
Karen Dolman, Ouija expert, Ouija logist, will be here, just briefly talking about a story that I saw at the very, very end of October to do with artificial intelligence being used for a one-off Ouija board project.
People were being asked to go to a website and use this sort of virtual Ouija board.
I wanted to get Karen's thoughts about that.
And lastly, and probably the very last item I will do about JFK for a very long time, a short conversation and an update from Grover Proctor, who I think is a great guy, fascinating man, who spent a lot of time analyzing and studying a mysterious phone call that Lee Harvey Oswald tried to make from his police prison cell.
It's a great story.
Grover Proctor is the man for that story, and I think it will draw a nice line under my coverage of the JFK case for now.
If there is something earth-shattering, explosive, or amazing in the case, then I will bring it to you here.
But let's just assume that for now, we're going to park it here on the 60th anniversary.
So those are the people who will be on this edition of The Unexplained.
Chris Rutkowski in Canada, Barry Fitzgerald in Ireland, Carol Norman in the United States, and also in the States Grover Proctor.
He will talk about JFK.
First item then, from my recent radio show, this in Canada is Chris Rutkowski.
Looked at from a Canadian's perspective, how is just in terms of the revelations that we had earlier this year, starting in July, July 26th, David Grush and all of that stuff, how are you seeing that from Canada?
Well, you know, we are in fact quite aware of what's going on and we're participating with the Americans with regard to a lot of this.
As a matter of fact, just this past weekend in San Francisco, there is the Sol Conference, SOL Conference, which was bringing together a number of scientists from a number of different disciplines, including a lot of individuals who are involved in the UAP phenomenon, including David Grush and Gary Nolan and Christopher Mellon, a lot of the names that people are familiar with.
The idea was to bring together a lot of these people with scientists to talk about things from an objective standpoint.
Avi Loeb from Harvard, the fellow who was in charge of the Galileo project, which I'm also on as well, assisting them with a program there, trying to get the scientific viewpoint.
What's curious is that a lot of other unexpected people were participating, including a Canadian by the name of Larry Maguire, who's a member of parliament.
So if you can imagine a Canadian member of parliament being involved in a panel to discuss UAP in San Francisco with a group of scientists, that, in fact, is quite remarkable.
And I'm still waiting to hear back.
I didn't attend, but I'm waiting to hear back from Mr. Maguire on how he felt it went and how some of the things that were said this weekend went over.
So, you know, there is a lot of connection between Canada and the United States because we do, of course, partner with the United States in NORAD, the North American Airspace Defense.
And there have been a lot of cases involving both Canadian and American pilots who have been shooting down Canadian balloons, sorry, Chinese balloons and other balloons and other things over the past few years.
So there's a very close connection, and it's interesting to see how the two countries are participating.
Prime Minister Trudeau, of course, from what I read on the CBC or equivalent of the BBC, he was given a briefing, a report in February.
Has he had anything to say about this matter?
He has not, but we do know that although he was briefed fairly recently, his chief of defense staff Was given briefings over the past number of years.
In fact, the Minister of National Defense has had briefings on this subject.
And actually, I was asked to give a presentation to a member of the Canadian Senate on the subject of UAP a few years ago.
So, Canadian politicians are definitely interested in the subject.
It's interesting that we do know Canadian politicians are a little more vocal on this.
I mentioned Larry Maguire as a member of parliament.
There's at least three or four other members of Canadian Parliament who are outspoken on the subject of UAP and want more transparency and revelation.
We don't have to be able to do that.
And of course, we mustn't forget, of course, sorry to cut over you, that Paul Hellier, who died in the last couple of years, the former Canadian Defense Minister, he was well into his 90s when he died.
You know, he was the man who really opened up all of this before anybody else was.
Absolutely.
And, you know, he was Canadian Defense Minister back in the 1960s and had stepped down in 1968, if I'm not mistaken.
And after that point, continued on with the Privy Council.
So he was very, very outspoken, although he certainly didn't have his security clearance up until the end, you know, fairly recently, the time he died.
But he certainly was well connected.
And as you say, he did make quite a big impression on many people who became interested because of what he was saying about, you know, UAP presence on Earth.
And just in case people think, you know, the same sort of stuff that happens in America doesn't happen in Canada and it's very quiet there, they're wrong.
I was only three weeks ago in Halifax, Nova Scotia, not far from where the Shag Harbour incident in the 1960s occurred.
And maybe we might get time just to give the nuts and bolts of that at some point.
But the CBC reports that Canadians report seeing UAPs three times a day.
Actually, that comes from my own research because I produce something called the Canadian UFO Survey every year.
And we found that somewhere between 700 and 1,000 UAP reports or UFO reports are filed every year in Canada.
And I coordinate the research from all the various agencies and institutions and UFO groups.
And so that does work out at least two or three a day.
So it is quite interesting.
And that's just in one year.
So we've been doing this since the late 1980s.
And we have something like 25,000 separate UAP reports on record now.
We're digitizing them and making them available.
We continue to get reports every week.
In fact, just this past week, I received a report from a place called Igalowit, which is in Nunavut in northern Canada, the far Arctic, where a person had been watching a number of what he believed were satellites moving around in the sky.
But of course, that's a very, very far north.
And even though satellites do pass overhead, this particular light in the sky moved overhead, made a right angle turn, and went off in a completely different direction.
So he was quite puzzled by what was going on.
So we do get reports across Canada and great numbers every year.
Just finally, I wonder if you can, in just a few seconds, I mentioned the Shag Harbour incident, possibly Canada's most famous.
Can you just tell my listener in case he or she does not remember it, what happened there?
It's quite a remarkable case.
It was October of 1967 when a number of individuals, including Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers, had seen a light moving across the sky, descending towards the ocean.
This is just off the coast.
And by the time that the RCMP officers got to the shore, there was a light that was on the water.
They thought that perhaps a plane had crashed.
They went out.
They actually commandeered some fishing boats early in the morning.
This is one or two o'clock in the morning.
They went out and they found a ring of glowing yellow material floating in the water.
Fishermen's dip nets are unable to get any samples.
And the National Defense of Canada sent divers in to try and locate whatever was down there.
It was taken very, very seriously.
And there are government documents attesting to the fact that something indeed crashed into the waters off the coast of Canada in 1967.
And that's still mystery of what might that have been.
No, I thought of it as we were passing, as we were heading towards Halifax a few weeks ago when I was on the Unexplained Live Cruise.
I thought of it and I thought of you.
Chris Rykowski, thank you very much for helping me again.
Thank you.
Excellent Canadian UFO researcher, totally good guy, Chris Rykowski, and we will be returning to him for a longer conversation soon, I think.
I think there's an awful lot to say.
Great fan of Chris.
Barry Fitzgerald is next.
Irish investigator of all things paranormal from the Banshee to ghosts to this, a mysterious hum, low frequency that people are detecting in parts of Ireland and indeed in my country and other parts of the world.
This is Barry Fitzgerald.
A lot of people in Omer and in that area generally reported a low-level hum.
They sent in experts that can't find out what it is.
But apparently this is more widespread than that.
It is indeed, Howard.
I was first introduced to the hum in 2013, during May 2013, here in Sligo on the west coast.
Now I've also been investigating cases further south in Killarney and Kilkenny.
And those cases, they've been running for nearly 15, 20 years.
So we know that the west coast of Ireland was being affected.
But in my experience over the 10 years that I've been experiencing the Hum, I've never experienced it in the east of Ireland before.
So this is news to me that it has reached Oma, which is midway between east and west of Ireland.
So its behavior is very, very unique, I have found from my experience.
Now, initially, whenever I was first introduced to it, I was actually spending the night on a mountain known as a portal to the other worlds.
And it was during that particular process that I became aware of this sound, which wasn't rolling Over the hills, it was coming through the hills.
And that mesmerized me.
But since then, since May of 2013, I've never been able to stop hearing it, especially here in the West of Ireland.
And I've interviewed other people in Sligo and further down the west coast who are also experiencing this.
It's a very unique thing.
And I suspect the reason that they can't find it, Howard, is because the way that this frequency is coming through.
It's more like a pressure wave than anything else.
Now, I have been able to establish a recording of it, and I've been able to isolate it.
But this particular hum tends to come in between 40 and 80 hertz.
So it's very, very low.
But with recent discoveries in science and things, again, we understand now the way that the human body receives information, audible information.
It's not just through the ears.
It's also through the skin and the bones.
We absorb the sound.
And because these sounds are very, very low, they're almost touching on that infrasound aspect.
We're certainly pulling that information in.
And it is very much like a pressure wave, especially at night when you're in your own bedroom and you're resting.
We know that 20 to 40 hertz is the kind of note that you would hear if you went into a cathedral.
They had a great big organ.
The organist was playing the very lowest notes.
And those are the notes that hit you in the chest.
So these are deep, low notes.
But I understand.
Very, very deep.
Almost like I suppose a lot of people will often describe it as sounding like a diesel engine that's on idle, maybe several blocks away.
And it just rolls in and out.
And it's very, very strange.
But its behavior is also equally as strange because when you think you're getting on top of it, when you think you've almost got it, you're almost cracked it, suddenly it rips the rug from underneath your feet and you're left standing scratching your head, wondering, what on earth?
How did this happen?
Two weeks ago, for instance, I was here in Ireland with a friend from England and we ended up driving high into the mountains and we were looking down over the valley and the clouds had rolled in over the lower valley and he wanted to stop to get this photograph.
So we stopped the car, we stood at the side of the road and that's whenever I caught the sound of the hum.
And I asked him, can you hear that hum?
And he stopped and listened and I said, yes, I can.
The moment he heard it, it stopped.
Now, I've seen this time and time again.
When we acknowledge it, it's almost as if it's got caught out.
And there's almost, it gives you the impression that there's almost some type of conscious connection with this phenomenon and it just immediately stops or turns the laws on its head and you're back to the beginning again.
Now, those people in the north of Ireland who've experienced it, they reported it to the council at OMA.
OMA council sent in, I think it's for Mana.
They sent in a team of experts to try and identify it.
They don't know what it is.
And if it is what you suggest it might be, that is something almost primeval, they're never going to find a source for this thing.
As far as you know, in terms of speculation, and people will always speculate because that's part of being a human being.
What are people suggesting it might be?
Some people have even put it across that it may be the new windmills to generate electricity, that the infrasound is going down the main shaft into the stone bed and it's traveling because that sound will travel much faster across the stone plateaus and our houses are built in those.
So when the sound's coming through, we're hearing it more at night in our homes.
And that may be a possibility, but I haven't found a connection with that.
It's been close, but it never took the biscuit.
And others have been saying, you know, there's been the extreme ones that there is some type of tunneling going on underneath their feet that is stretching from the west, heading east.
I can't say that either.
Again, this idea that this phenomenon, when you're getting very close to it, suddenly changes the rules.
That's not natural.
That's something else.
And I can't, for the life of me, can I even get close to understanding what this is at the minute?
How do you think we can begin to investigate this further?
It sounds like all you've been able to do, and you've done more than most about this, is isolate incidents of it, but not actually get any closer to understanding what it might be or where it might be emanating from.
I think we have to look at the idea of the recording equipment.
The likes of the normal sound disruptions and meters that we tend to use for annoying sounds are not even cutting it close.
We need to make that adjustment.
And that in itself can be a costly move to look at devices that are recording the lower frequencies.
It might be beneficial for us as well to try and plug into the Earth itself to see if the sounds are being produced by the Earth.
Is there something deeper down that we should be aware of?
You know, scientists have made their suggestions and their hypothesis from solar flares that are causing the issue to creating these gravitational waves.
But the thing that we have to remember, Howard, is that this is not new.
England was plagued by this down in Southampton from the 1970s.
And it was the Tawas Hum, of course, in New Mexico.
They stole the limelight in the 1990s.
So we immediately look at America that this began in, but it didn't begin there.
It began on this side of the Atlantic.
And indeed, I still have People in various parts of England reporting this to me.
So it is a more general phenomenon.
We just simply don't know what it is.
And the one thing about low frequency noise is that it is probably the most disturbing and potentially damaging to people because it can't be impossible.
It's very difficult to remove low frequency stuff.
You know, if you've got high frequencies coming through your wall, you can filter those out, put earplugs in.
But if it's low frequencies, it's going to be coming through you.
Yeah, yeah, that's the problem with it.
I have found in my own way that I'm able to, I shut off to it.
Some nights it can become very pronounced and you're forced to acknowledge it.
But for the most part, since 2013, I have been able to switch off to it and just go about my daily business.
But even after 10 years, I've never been able to come close as to what causes it because of the way that the phenomena switches on and switches off.
That to me sparked something else.
There's something else with this that goes beyond the normal reasons.
There are scientists in the United Kingdom.
There are scientists in Dublin who look at seismology.
Very accomplished people.
Do you know if any of them are?
Yes, there have been a few folks that have been putting their 10 cents forward.
But the problem with this is that, again, these are all hypotheses from people who are sitting in a laboratory and haven't experienced the phenomena for themselves.
And that can be very, very difficult.
Some hypotheses have been put forward that it was fish mating in the ocean that was causing the waves.
That in itself is just absolute nonsense.
It's certainly not that at all.
And I have recorded on one particular night, I have recorded the sound emanating from the ocean, which would almost, I suppose, reflect the hypothesis that came through from one scientist that it was the waves hitting off the ocean bed that was causing this phenomenon.
But that wasn't the case because the following night, I never heard it at the ocean.
Instead, I heard it 20 miles inland in the mountains.
So again, it keeps switching back and forward.
Nothing is the same.
It's always different.
So it's a real mystery.
Yeah, very much so.
Barry Fitzgerald, and if you live in Omer or indeed anywhere on the island of Ireland and you've experienced this, I would be interested to hear from you and I will certainly be following that story.
Karen Dolman, one of my very first guests years ago on The Unexplained.
She was in Los Angeles at that time.
She has now moved, as you will hear.
I spoke with Karen on the show about the AI connection with Ouija.
There was a company that set up as, I think it was a publicity thing, an AI-linked Ouija website.
It was only a temporary thing.
But I know that AI is coming to everything.
And we hear that electronic equipment of various kinds can be affected by the paranormal.
Certainly a lot of ghost hunters reflect that.
So I thought I would contact Karen Dolman and get her views on this and the whole idea of using artificial intelligence for something that is so human and otherworldly as Ouija.
According to PC Magazine, those curious to see what their dearly beloved grandma and grandpa have to say can head to an official Ouija website.
Remember, this is not open now.
It was only open till November 1.
And essentially ask questions.
Karen Dolman was on this show years and years ago and has been on, off and on over the years, many, many times, and is now many, many things, including a broadcast host, I believe.
Karen, how are you in California?
Hi, Howard.
I'm doing great.
Actually, I'm in Arizona now.
Are you?
When did you move?
And why did you move?
Well, it's been a couple of years.
I love Arizona.
Everything that the desert brings, I love.
And I did California for 22 years.
I was done.
Clean air, beautiful, clear skies.
I'm with you on that, Karen.
What do you think about this?
Do you think that we've talked about Ouija many times?
And obviously, in the United Kingdom, I have to say that we're not advocating it.
We're not encouraging people to do this.
Of course not.
We're just having this conversation as part of the flow of conversation.
However, we have talked about it many times and your lifelong interaction with it.
Do you think that technology could ever be involved in something like this that is so visceral and human?
Okay, so let's talk about this AI Ouija.
So let's go back to the beginning.
Hasbro brought it to life, and you're right, it was a few days before November 1st, had to do with Halloween.
And two of my colleagues at the Talking Board Historical Society got to test it before they actually released it.
I immediately jumped on the bandwagon, used it as well, and tried it out.
Having used it, I will say this, as we know what AI is, AI has the ability to process a large amount of data and information and bring it forth through algorithms and basically compile it and bring it back.
So if you use AI to ask a question, it's going to, let's say it's on the internet, it's going to go and reach out its tentacles to all the data out there, some accurate, some not.
So it doesn't have that quality of maybe talking to, let's say, quote unquote spirit that a Ouija board has.
And also it's missing the human interaction.
So AI is, they try to say it's sentient, but I disagree with AI being sentient because sentient means you have the capacity to have feelings, which relates to empathy and understanding.
And you can talk all day about feelings and bring forth information, which AI does, but it doesn't mean you feel it.
And you know, Howard, when you and I have spoken about the Ouija board many times before, I'm very clear.
The board is neutral, does nothing.
It's us who channel the information and bring it forth.
The board becomes our theatrics or our permission in which To do channeling, and that's really what's happening.
So, when you bring AI into it, it's just bringing forth a bunch of data, which doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate.
And also, it might be encouraging people to treat it more likely than anybody who might go down that path should.
Well, yeah, that's what AI is doing.
And people, if you use like Chat GPT or other kinds of AI barred out there or making pictures with AI, you'll find there's always some issue.
It's not 100% accurate again because it's only based upon the data it can pull from, which doesn't have any sort of like telepathy or kinesiology or psychokinesis or anything else the human nature can do.
You know, we're electromagnetic frequencies, they say.
Science has proven there's an energetic feeling or aura around us, and that we're really tapping into that when we start reaching into the unseen dimensions.
We may call it our claircensis, and AI has none of that.
It doesn't have a soul, and I disagree, it's not sentient.
Now, it is intelligent in terms of it being able to learn and start to get more information and gather more as more information is presented.
But does that mean it actually has the range of human feelings?
And I say it doesn't.
So you're not getting information that's really good to adhere to or follow or even believe.
And that's what I say about the AI Ouija.
You introduced me, I think, probably more than a decade ago to a word that I've never heard before, Ouija logist, which is what you are.
I think you've have you written three books or two books?
I've got them on my bookshelf behind me, but you've written a couple of books.
Let's say four.
I wrote my fourth book.
Yeah, it's sitting behind me, and your producer can see it.
I wrote my fourth book, and here we go.
This is what I'm talking about, the whole idea of the human quotient involved when you channel using a Ouija board.
You can channel and tap into the sentient beings, the consciousness of sentient beings.
And this book was written with the sentience of a cat that was one of my pets.
So it's a very heartwarming, childlike story, but it's really made for adults.
And it's called When Cats Had Wings.
And that's my most recent book.
Nice to speak with you again, Karen.
We will talk again.
Maybe we can do a longer podcast and catch up because it's been two years at least.
I would love to.
That'd be great.
I love always coming back to your show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Karen Dallman, and my grateful thanks to her.
Somebody else I've got to have a longer conversation with soon.
The last thing on this edition is also for the current time, the last occasion that I will talk about the JFK case.
Unless there is something earth-shattering and brand new about it, I think we're going to park it now at the 60th anniversary of this terrible tragedy that shook the world and the many, many questions that reverberate down the decades.
Grover Proctor was a guest on my show, was it two years ago, 18 months ago?
I lose track of time here.
He's done extensive research into one of the most fascinating aspects, I think, of the entire story and one that's often overlooked and not talked about.
This is the mysterious and documented attempt to make a phone call from his cell by Lee Harvey Oswald.
It fascinated me then.
It fascinates me now.
It always will.
See what you think.
This is Grover Proctor.
Good to talk to you again.
Nice to speak with you again, Grover.
I am haunted and astonished and amazed by the story that you told me.
I wonder if you can just quickly run me through it.
There was a phone call that Lee Harvey Oswald was permitted to make after his arrest during his incarceration in a police cell, presumably before his first appearance before a court.
Talk to me about that night and what you now know happened.
Well, there were two ladies working in the switchboard office of the Dallas Police Department, which housed the jail downtown.
And the story goes that somewhere after 10 o'clock, but before 11 o'clock p.m. on the Saturday night, the day after the assassination, information came to the switchboard that Oswald was going to be wanting to make a call, and they would have to take the information and make the call for him and just wanted to let them know.
And they also told the lady in charge there in the switchboard office that two men would be coming in to monitor the call.
And it was decided they would be put into a little room off to the side, which had the ability for people to listen and in on conversations without being heard, that kind of thing.
So sure enough, somewhere 10.30, we don't know the exact time.
The switchboard lit up with a red dot indicating that it was coming from the jail.
Both ladies plugged into their side of the switchboard at exactly the same time.
One lady said, number, please, meaning what number do you want to call?
She then let the other lady, who was the superior officer, if you will, for that office, take the initiative and talk to Oswald.
But she was on the line listening, and she wrote down on a little scratch pad all the information that Oswald had about the call that he wanted to make.
And that information contained that it was going to Raleigh, North Carolina, area code 919.
And he gave two different phone numbers, and all of that was written down.
So as soon as that information was taken, the superior of the two closed the key to Oswald so he couldn't hear.
But she then went and talked to the gentleman who by that time had been seated in the side room, told them everything.
She's listening to them tell her things.
The other lady who had made all the information into the notepad information couldn't hear what they were saying, but the older lady tuned out of the two men, sat there, was noticeably shaking, and was very nervous.
It surprised her coworker greatly.
And then she said she was dumbfounded by what the older lady did at that point.
She got back onto the line with Oswald and said, I'm Sorry, that number didn't answer and closed off the key, in essence, hanging up on him.
The lady that wrote down the information kept that little piece of paper and about five years later, told a story to one of their family friends who happened to work in the federal prison system.
He said, I think the sheriff needs to know about this.
Have you told any others?
No.
Nobody came and asked.
Sheriff came, said, I think this is a higher level than mine.
So he said, I think the FBI should come in.
FBI came in.
They took that little notepad, which still existed at that time, still may exist today, and took that back to Washington.
She finally got that back, all the information.
An affidavit was written up, but never signed, as if in the voice of the lady who made the notes.
And that turned up later on, having been sent by an investigator, Bernard Fensterwald, to the House Assassinations Committee.
They thought, this is fascinating.
No one's ever come up with this before.
We didn't know about this.
So they set about to do research into that.
They called both ladies, talked to them, went and talked to them.
They found out who the two telephone numbers were.
And the two telephone numbers in Raleigh were at that time, 1963, registered to men named John Hurt.
One at that time was a much younger man.
He was a high school graduate working in the tire recapping business, the way it was described.
They pretty were sure that Oswald wouldn't have been calling him.
But the other man had been a counterintelligence agent during World War II for the U.S. Army and had been offered a commission to stay in the Army because of his good work.
He turned that down.
Ill health throughout the years had given him problems with employment and so forth.
And he had other behavioral and physical and mental problems during that time.
But they went and talked to him, and he denied making a call to Oswald because some people were explaining the presence of that slip as someone called in and the information was written down.
But there were two numbers down there.
And how would anybody know the telephone number of the other John Hurt?
So that's what happened.
Oswald, it said by the Warren Commission, never had any connection to anyone else in the assassination and certainly had no intelligence connections with the United States intelligence agencies.
And yet somebody told him to call a man if he ever gets in trouble in Raleigh, North Carolina, who just happened to have been a counterintelligence agent for the Army.
That's what's so interesting about it.
I think that's what's grabbed your attention.
It certainly grabbed mine.
And Robert Blakey, chairman of the John Kennedy side of the House Assassinations Committee, said to me personally when I was asking about it, he says, we believe it.
These ladies didn't lie.
This actually happened.
We don't know why.
It's disturbing.
We don't know what conclusions to draw from it.
It was never actually published in the House Assassinations Committee report or any of its evidence, but the lady, the attorney that was doing the research for the committee, did write up a multi-page report on it.
It still existed.
Blakey gave me a copy, and I have since posted that online for free to people who want to read it.
And it's very unequivocal that this is what they said happened.
This is what Oswald wanted to have happen.
And this is how he was thwarted in whatever it was he thought he was doing.
And for me, Grover, it is the most intriguing thing of all.
We've only got a couple of minutes left, sadly.
In the entire story of JFK and those fateful events and all of the loose ends that have yet to be tied up, what would he be doing phoning somebody who had that background, who you couldn't see in his background how he would know somebody like that?
It doesn't add up.
And I wonder how you can ever begin, as you continue your investigation in this, which I presume you are, how you could ever join those dots up, how you could ever make sense of what was going on there.
Well, I think we can probably make sense of the logical possibilities, but you're right, finding all of that when any documentation that might exist is being stonewalled by government agencies that will not release those documents.
But one of two things happened.
This is what I tell my audiences when I lecture.
One of two things seems to have happened.
Either Oswald was working for some form of American intelligence or somebody was making him think he was and therefore running him and having him do various things and ended up in Dallas on November 22nd.
I think that there's really no evidence that he was officially working for American intelligence.
So I put that aside.
But I think it's really true that he felt that he was and was very serious about it and wanted to do that as, if you will, a patriotic American.
And so if somebody came to him and said, if you ever get in trouble, call this number to this man who was an alcoholic, who had terrible mental problems and all of this.
Oswald had no way of knowing who this man was, but he followed orders and he tried to get in touch with the man that he was told to call.
And former members of the CIA themselves have told me personally that that's exactly what was happening.
He was calling his cutout.
He was doing exactly what he was supposed to do since he thought he was working for an American intelligence agency.
Crover Proctor, thank you very much indeed.
Just very quickly in a few seconds, if you could.
I implied that you would be continuing this research.
Are you going to be able to?
As much as possible.
I've been back to the archives just recently.
There's nothing new that's been involved or uncovered.
The new documents don't seem to say anything about it.
But if it's there, I'll keep trying to find it.
Wonderful man to speak with, Grover Proctor.
Before that, you heard Karen Dolman.
Before that, Barry Fitzgerald.
And before that, in Canada, Chris Rutkowski.
Thank you very much to them, and thank you to you for being part of this show.
More great guests in the pipeline here at the home online of the unexplained.
So until we meet again, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
Please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
