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May 21, 2023 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:04:30
Edition 723 - Gari Jones

Welsh UAP researcher Gari Jones on a strange story from North Wales - multiple witnesses saw a bizarre light formation near Denbigh - on a stormy night in 2012... We also get an update on the Pentyrch case - and details of other UFO-linked incidents in North, Mid and South Wales...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Well, I hope that everything is good with you.
Looking very spring-like out of my window, which is nice, and I'm doing this show in a t-shirt.
No heating necessary.
It's pretty damn good at the moment, so I hope that you're experiencing similar conditions.
And if you're going into winter in the southern hemisphere, then just know that in a few months it's all going to flip the other way anyway.
Now, I've been away for a couple of weeks from doing this.
If you've been reading my social media, you'll understand why.
And thank you so much for the wonderful support that you've given me through this period.
Basically, just to explain before we get into the guest, that I had a fire in this very apartment where I've lived and had my being for a lot of years.
And it was the most, I mean, when is ever something like this expected?
But it was the most unexpected thing.
It was caused by a punctured aerosol can that had fallen on the floor and somehow had got a tiny pinhole in it.
It then sprayed out gas propellant, which all of these aerosols still have.
And that gas propellant is highly flammable, so when it meets something that has a flame, like my gas boiler cupboard, which is in the hallway, then the whole lot goes up.
It was shooting flames out of it like a flamethrower.
I've been meaning to clear my flat for a very long time and have some very much needed refurbishment done.
But the problem has always been, where do I live while that's done?
Because it has to be extensive.
You know, at the moment, it's like living in the 1970s or the 1980s.
There have got to be some changes here.
And now they've been forced on me.
You know, maybe fate intervened.
But boy, did it intervene in a hell of a way.
So this thing is shooting out flames and igniting anything in its path.
It was terrifying.
I watched flames grow from 10 centimeters to 40 to 50, 60 centimeters in seconds.
Now, if you've never been in a fire, and I hadn't, you know, the only thing I've ever seen is, you know, bonfire night that we have here, November the 5th, where people make bonfires.
You don't understand how quickly it spreads.
So I realized that I was on the scene of this thing, and all I could do was to quickly run, go to my bathroom where I've got a bucket, fill up buckets of cold water, and start dousing the flames.
So I lost a lot of clothes because it went for the clothes, and a few little bits of equipment, a mixer and something else, but it could have been much worse.
The carpet burned.
In a couple of minutes of frantically throwing buckets on it, probably five, I managed to get the flames under control.
The most terrifying thing about it was when I was dousing the flames and throwing things that I thought I'd extinguished over my shoulder, I watched them burst into flames again.
In fact, I put some burning clothes in the bath because I thought, well, that's wet and they're going to be okay.
They burst into flames again.
It was like a scene from a Hitchcock horror film.
Then I breathed in an awful lot of terrible, acrid smoke.
God knows what was in it.
So if I sound even more wheezy than usual now, that's why.
I thought, okay, that's done.
I've got to try and get this thick smoke out of here.
You know, I realized that if I'd followed the official advice, which is something that you must do, and that is, if you have a fire, get out.
That's the official advice.
But if I'd done that here at that time, then I'd have completely lost my home.
That's not an argument and never would be for you staying in if you're in that situation.
But that's what I did.
So I then started venting the smoke and I thought, I'll have a look inside this boiler cupboard.
Now, it is a gas boiler.
I found it, to my horror, encircled in flames completely.
So I quickly doused the flames in that, breathing even more acrid smoke in.
Then I called the fire brigade and within three or four minutes, Matt, Luke and Daniel from the local Twickenham fire station were here.
They realized that I was in shock.
They thanked me for fighting the fire, but said the official advice is always to get out.
And I said, well, you know, I realize that, but, you know, I'd have lost absolutely everything.
They were great.
The paramedics who arrived, three of them, were wonderful and helpful and checked me out.
And they said, well, you've got clear signs of smoking and inhalation.
You've got to go to hospital.
And they automatically call an ambulance in those situations.
And I had to tell the ambulance crew that because a gas man, a gas engineer, Steve, was here, and actually was here for about an hour and a half, making sure that everything was okay and safe, and because he was here and there was no one to leave in the flat, I couldn't go to hospital.
I ended up having breathing problems about a week later and ended up going to Kingston Hospital, thank you to them, spending five hours there.
And what else happened?
Well, I'd planned to take a week off my show.
I'd taken off May the 7th, was it?
Yeah, May the 7th.
It all seems like a blur now.
So that was the plan.
And I thought I'm going to deal with some of these things, try and clear things out, try and make some progress towards getting things sorted out, try and get everything on an even keel.
And I booked, I booked, you know, my sister, I love my sister dearly said to me, you know, you can't just stay there because you never go anywhere.
Book a break.
So I booked a cheap break in Malta, four nights, three days in Malta.
I've lost that and lost the money on that.
So from every point of view, it was a hell of an experience.
But all experiences have a downside.
And the downside for me was the smoke inhalation and the shock that hit me a couple of days later.
I had to get a little bit of help for that.
The upside is that I'm still here and I'm looking at my life in a completely different way.
You know, for years, I put work and sometimes employers who didn't care about me at all first.
That's definitely going to be something that I look into.
And I'm talking historically when I look back years in the past now, you know, not necessarily a reference to my current employees at all, But I put work first, didn't particularly worried about what they paid me, just did it and let everything else go.
And so I've learned a good lesson.
And, you know, this is only being told to you so that maybe you can learn that lesson too.
If you are putting work and employers before everything else, that's a good thing to be a diligent employee.
And my God, I always gave 150%.
But don't put it all absolutely first and foremost.
And all of those things I have learnt in the last two weeks.
So if the heavens sent me a wake-up call, then they did it in a hell of a way.
And I've heard big time.
So look, if you didn't want to hear that description of what happened in the last couple of weeks, my apologies.
And, you know, you can always skip these things on podcasts anyway.
But, you know, I needed to tell the full story.
And another massive upside, the biggest of all, was your response and the amount of support and the wonderful messages that I've had.
You know, at one point, in the middle of all of this, I just felt like totally giving up, completely.
And those messages that keep coming in saw me through.
So just as you've told me during the COVID years, sometimes these podcasts help you.
You helped me.
And I'm sorry this story has taken about six minutes to tell.
My apologies for that.
Let's get on with business.
Thanks to Adam as ever, my webmaster, for his work on this.
And thank you to you for all of the work.
And if you've donated to the podcast recently, thank you so much.
You know who you are.
The man I'm going to be speaking with is a guy called Gary Jones on this edition of The Unexplained.
We're going to talk about an unremarked, well, no, under-remarked, that's the word, an under-remarked UFO case, the Denby Lights case, from North Wales, just over a decade ago.
It is an amazing case.
We'll talk a little bit more, too, about Welsh UFO cases with Gary, who's written a new book published by Philip Mantle's Flying Disc Press.
I've got it here called The Denby Lights, a Truthful Argument for the Existence of UFOs.
I've been reading it.
It is a great book, and it's a great story, I think.
So Gary is the guest on this edition of The Unexplained to get us back underway, get the ball rolling again, get the UFO spinning, and get me back to normal life.
I hope.
Thank you very much indeed for being everything that you are.
And if you email, then please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
Enough talking.
The book is The Denby Lights.
Gary Jones is the researcher and author behind it.
He's online to The Unexplained Now from North Wales.
Gary, thank you very much for doing this.
Thank you for having me on your show, Howard.
I have to clarify something I thought, and you should never make assumptions, first rule of journalism, that you're in North Wales, but in fact, the story's about North Wales, and you're in South Wales, yeah?
Last Friday, I live in north of Tydville, which is just not too far from the city of Cardiff.
Why do you think, Gary, and we'll dive straight into it, that UFO encounters and stories, and there are many of them, don't seem to get the same coverage, or maybe I'm just not seeing it right, the same kind of coverage that stories that happen in England and maybe Scotland get.
Why do you think the Welsh stories are often forgotten?
That's a real remissory of its own.
I guess there's just not as much interest in Wales as there is in England and Scotland.
You could say maybe there's a bit of media bias there, or maybe people just aren't as well up on UFO sightings in Wales as they are with England and Scotland, because it's not like we don't have our fair share of UFO sightings in India.
We've got some pretty good ones.
You do, and we'll talk about them, yeah.
I just, you know, find that it's only in recent years, like, for example, you know, there was a book quite recently about a particular case in West Wales, of which you may well be familiar, I think, near Haverford West.
And there have been all sorts of encounters.
And of course, there's Kaz Clark at the Penturk incident.
I'll probably mispronounce that location.
Yes, I've been investigating it with her.
Yeah, I mean, that is an amazing story and really needs, although it's had media coverage, needs to get more media coverage, I think, than it has.
But, you know.
Oh, yeah, there's.
Sorry.
I was just going to say, with that particular case, Penturk, I mean, it's just the amount of shadow banning, shall we say, and censorship on that one.
I just think, well, maybe there's an answer to your question here.
But maybe there's something about Wales and the connection to UFOs and major sites in particular that they don't want us discovering.
I wonder if it's something to do with the military aspect of it.
You know, I spent being brought up and born in Liverpool, I spent a lot of my holiday time, you know, over in Wales, either mid-Wales or North Wales, we used to do most of the time.
And I can definitely remember being overflown on some mountaintops that we managed to reach.
I think it was probably around Snowdonia, being overflown by military jets.
It was almost like we were being buzzed by them.
So there's military presence.
They do exercises there.
And those sorts of things are not unknown.
And of course, the Penturk case, and I'm just encouraging my listener here, if you want to hear the conversation with Cass Clark about that, it's back in my archives, I think, two years ago.
You know, there is heavy military involvement there, apparently.
And also to this very day, as you rightly say, Gary, there is an awful lot of top secret about it.
There's an awful lot of not confirming, not going there.
Well, two years ago, I mean, we had a lot of cracking information.
But since then, I mean, I can update you very quickly for your listeners.
All right, well, just in case there's a listener who didn't hear that edition, let's just say that, you know, Kaz Clark tells the story wonderfully.
You've been investigating it with her.
This was the story of an all-encompassing encounter involving Light's possible craft, then military helicopters and military presence on the ground, and then later traces of radiation that I think still exist in that area to this day.
And that's a really bad summation, but that's more or less it, isn't it?
It's some elements of it.
Yeah, it just, if you want to do a quick summation, I've tried to do this myself because there's so much to cover.
Let's do it.
But I mean, it's a UFO event that happened on February 26, 2016, with large military presence and aircraft and navy, we believe, as well now, in South Wales.
Now, there was a plane, military spotter plane circling the area for three days and nights.
And then, finally, on the night in question, when the military seemed to know something was happening, the entire, a lot of the Air Force and military presence on the ground jumped into action.
And those who were watching, such as Kaz Kark and David, her neighbor, they saw what they were waiting for at some point.
A large, when it was fully lit, a large pyramid, triangular-shaped kind of craft, as they describe it, fully lit up, huge, hundreds of feet high, hundreds of feet wide, shot multiple objects out the top of itself.
One was like a recon, the others were like, I don't know, maybe let off to explore drones or whatever.
After a couple of minutes of viewing it, the craft let out a huge hand of lightning, got very close to the ground.
One of the other green objects, which was acting like a recon device, caught the attention of some planes that came into the area and drew its attention over to the northwest area of Smilock Woods, which is just outside of Penturk, near Lantrisa.
And when that was happening, two of the barrels came over to Kaz Clark and David by the gate.
There was a moment of interaction between them.
One of the barrels went from red to green and shone some kind of light on the two witnesses.
Kaz in particular felt like she had been uplifted or, you know, like the fear had been taken out of her.
There was some form of contact made between the two, between herself and maybe telepathic, maybe.
Anyway, about an hour or so later, there was an almighty explosion outside of Royal Gamorgan Hospital.
We now know something crashed into the woods.
And one of the Apache helicopters was forced to make an emergency landing afterwards.
There was a large presence on the ground in Lantrescent and in the woods in particular.
Something was removed from there.
Two Trips of Machinek helicopter confirmed this.
I have witnesses to that.
And I also have witnesses now who are actually seeing the helicopters interact with these barrel-shaped objects, as well as two witnesses now who actually saw what crashed in the woods in the military with their retrieving it.
And just to sum up something else, we've had confirmation now from the MOD, especially the MOD, that there were no pre-programmed low-flying training exercises of any kind for the South Wales area during the entire February of 2016.
So the question remains, Howard, what were they doing here?
What indeed?
Why are they so cagey about it to this day?
And yes, they have confirmed, I think, that there was a military exercise in another area, but nowhere near the area that Kaz was in and the other witnesses were in.
And why, when Kaz herself went to the location, the woodland, when she went to investigate and to look, why were there military-looking people, I think, clad in what looked like hazmat suits in some cases?
Why was she warned off by them?
It's all bad.
That was a month or so, about a month or so after.
I don't know the exact date, but it's within a few weeks or a month or thereabouts.
Yeah, there was a military campsite there.
Satellites, hookups, large computers, strange laptops, you know, the containers that they carry, military-style tending equipment.
And of course, men with machine guns, which they try to conceal.
And there were also people going through various parts of the fields, now, not the woods, the fields, where the large pyramid triangular craft was present.
And they were given a number of different explanations.
One minute they were Vodafone.
Then they were looking for Mark Mines.
And I think the other one was a Fracken survey team.
And of course, there was a moment where Kaz was able to see the campsite.
And later on, there was an interaction with what was amazing, their commanding officer.
And as someone jokingly said, I didn't know Vodafone had a commanding officer.
And yeah, we've asked about this.
We've asked the councils.
We've asked the military.
We've asked the MLD.
We've asked anyone who would have information as to why those people would be there in that field.
No one seems to know anything.
But we've had it confirmed through their responses, like Section 26 to direct questions, that they were military.
They didn't answer it directly, but in an indirect way with the Section 26 answers as well, we know they're military.
It seems very odd that if there was nothing to see there, why be so cagey about it?
Why be so defensive about it?
And why be in a kind of denial about it, which it seems they are?
I think it's in the pantheon of United Kingdom cases, I think it is one of the oddest.
It's also interesting in that it is not something that happened as a lot of the cases in America happened, you know, 50 years ago or 40 years ago, whatever.
This thing is very contemporary.
This thing is within easy living memory.
And it never goes away.
Periodically, your newspapers in Wales will pick it up.
I don't know whether they report it fairly.
I think they probably have.
Whether they get the right end of the stick with it, I'm not sure.
They never do.
Let's be fair about it, that the media, from the reports that I've seen, and this happens with a lot of cases of this kind, hasn't exactly understood the story.
Let's put it that way, yeah?
No, they haven't understood the story.
It's not reported fairly, and it doesn't even cover some of the more basic points fairly.
It just tries to mark it in any way it can.
So where are we left with it then, Gary?
What can you do about it now?
You've had denials from those who are denying.
You've had refusals for information from some of those who might have information to give you.
Is there anything that you can do?
I seem to recall in the Penturk case, wasn't there a police officer or a couple of police officers who had spoken to some investigators?
Not as far as I know.
We were the ones asking about the South Wales Police, but the South Wales Police's response was that the officers involved in the so-called exercise had all retired.
So they had no information or understanding of what we were talking about, but yet they understood the officers who took part have now all since retired.
So if you didn't know what we were talking about, how did you know the officers who were involved?
Exactly.
If it's something so insignificant, how come you know so much about it?
Exactly.
And then the other interesting thing is we were pushing them for an answer on this, whether or not they did a counter-terrorism exercise, not military, a counter-terrorism, which they do pretty often, really.
But they would just say we can neither confirm nor deny.
And me and Kars Klark have been pushing them on this.
We had a information, is it the Information Commission's officer, the one that deals with freedom of information requests?
They're like the branch you go to complain after.
They're supposed to be the ombudsman for these things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, in this case, they were very good for us because they were forced to make the police answer our question.
But if anything, they even sort of added a bit more information.
They even asked the counter-terrorism unit for Wales themselves, and they confirmed that they had no exercises.
But then I remember specifically asking the Royal Mint, which is like a very secure building, you know, because there's money printed there with the King's head on it now, of course.
And they confirmed that the counter-terrorism unit was who was informing them of that exercise.
But then if they don't know nothing about an exercise for that night, then who was informing them?
It's not that interesting.
Yeah, no, exactly.
You know, if the Royal Mint of Tlantrissant know about this thing because they've been told about it through official channels, and yet this thing wasn't happening, then one hand is not talking to the other one, it seems to me.
That's incredible.
So there's a lot more work to be done on this.
Well, I've got to give Kaz Kar credit.
She's really good at the legal-minded stuff and the interpreting of the sort of laws and everything.
I'm pretty okay with it, but she's got a real head for this kind of stuff.
So together, we're making a real good team.
So we have all our strengths and we put them together.
And this is, I think what she's taught people, especially when I've been working with her, I've seen her mode of thinking now and how she does it.
Obviously, with the freedom of information, it doesn't always pan out in your result.
But I think what we've learned is that you can get answers, but you've just got to be clever and persistent in the way that you do it.
And you got a real find there with the confirmation from Clantrus and from the Royal Military.
And the military.
And from the military saying that there was something, but it was not there, and the police having more information than you would expect them to have about something that never happened.
This is a great case.
And I wish you luck with it.
And I thought Kaz, you know, Kaz and I had quite a long conversation, I think two years ago.
And I was very impressed by her diligence and sincerity and tenacity.
Those three things.
So I hope she can keep on with this.
All of that in abundance.
All of those things.
All right, well, you know, you and I and her will talk about that again if you'd like.
The Denby Lights case.
Just tell me before I talk about you and other cases to set the scene, why should we be interested in some lights that appeared in North Wales when people are reporting lights all the time?
Well, when you say it like that, I guess maybe nothing.
But no, here's the thing.
This was a sighting that happened on January 3rd, 2012, 3 a.m. in the morning.
It was seen by a family of four, and we've got video of these lights.
And with the witness testimony and the understanding of what was going on that night, it's clear that these are not just ordinary lights like car lights or building lights or some kind of natural phenomena lights like lightning arcing or something or something that would be arcing off electrical wires.
This happened during the middle of a storm with 50 mile an hour winds, torrential downpour rain, and of course, out in the middle of an open fielded area where the temperatures like might practically zero degrees.
So not the time, not the conditions for the hobby flyer.
Not for the drone flyer or the helicopter flyer or anyone to be doing anything outdoors whatsoever, even if you are a die-hard rambler, you know, that will travel through Wales with friends.
It's not even ideal conditions for hunting if there was such a thing happening over there.
Well, we'll get to, because there were some suggestions that there was some hunting activity.
We'll talk about that as we unfold the story.
But, you know, not great conditions for anyone.
Two or three o'clock in the morning.
So, you know, not the kind of time when most people do things.
So for all of those reasons, it rings alarm and interest bells.
You say in the book.
Yeah, I mean, I also say that we've got video, which we've had analyzed, and it's been professionally done by Jason Gleaves of UF only.
So big shout out to him.
Inchester, yep.
And yeah, he's very, very good.
And he confirmed that whatever this thing is, and he's an RAF man, so he's trained in observation and aircraft.
And he says that this thing is unexplained.
And he doesn't believe it's a drone or any other vehicle flying outside because it just doesn't conform to any of the known light configuration patterns or things you'd expect to see on, well, anything you'd normally expect to have flying or floating or hovering around our countrysides and skies.
Quoting from the book, you say, I was ever so slightly surprised to discover that Denby, indeed the entire county of Denbighshire and the whole of North Wales, historically were places literally brimming with a significant number of UFO sightings.
Moreover, these went beyond mere standard reports.
So there's a bit of a history there.
Now, there's a history with me.
As I told you before we started recording this, I was brought up in Crosby, near Liverpool, and I was lucky to live on a road that had a beach at the bottom of it, and we had the Irish Sea come the end of the Mersey at the bottom of that road.
And we could stand and look, and I did it often.
Across at North Wales, we could see, you know, Denby and Mold and Snowdonia, and even as far as Anglesey on Clear days.
Very different terrain, very mountainous, very beautiful to look at.
But a mysterious-looking area when you're standing in an urbanized area where I was.
You know, a place that could spawn mysteries.
And indeed, there were some.
Even you say in the book in Denby, there was an incident in Denby in 1964.
Yeah, I have mentioned some of the historical things about this because, I mean, the reason why I bring all this up is because there's been a lot of sightings and there's a lot of ancient castles there and everything.
And I just thought it'd be interesting to look at the folklore of the place because I heard a lot about the ghost stories up there as well.
And I just thought, what you've saved 1964, could you just read it back to me?
Because I'm trying to remember exactly.
I've just got in my notes here that there was a sight.
I don't think you say very much about it, but there was a sighting in Denby in 1964.
You give more detail, actually, of something that happened in 1978.
Now, Liverpoolians call it Lanerky Med, which it isn't.
Klanerky Mev, I think it is.
I think it's pronounced Klanechemev.
Klanerke Mev.
Klanechemev.
I know.
So this is a great one, though.
And this is one that I've never heard or read about.
A bullet-shaped object.
This is a tiny, mainly Welsh-speaking village.
So I think you're out beyond Klangoffland, places like that.
Tiny Welsh-speaking village.
1978, bullet-shaped object and two humanoid figures.
Yeah, I could just read quickly.
Yeah, there was a lady that was walking a dog around the fields at Dernby Castle, and they were encircled by a strange light, and that made a dog kind of nervous.
So that was something that I thought was interesting, especially when you get the ancient landmarks.
But yeah, the other one I remember, I actually met the lady who saw it.
Can you hear me, Howard?
I can.
All right, my computer's saying I've got low resources.
Strange.
Sorry about that.
Right, yeah.
They're probably monitoring you, Gary.
Oh, I think they're always monitoring me, to be perfectly honest.
Seriously?
Well, I seem to have trouble sometimes when I'm always doing live streams, especially talking about UFOs.
It's not the first time this has happened.
Because there's a very slight, what they call in computer terms, latency.
So there's a very slight, I mean, minimal delay between us, but it just kind of delays answers and replies.
We get that sometimes.
But, you know, I often get the feeling, truthfully, and I'm not paranoid, that sometimes.
I'm monitored.
Isn't that weird?
Anyway, this incident in 1978 involved, as we said, two humanoid figures.
Yes, there was a community there.
I can't remember the name of it.
It's in the book.
But there's like farm fields and open areas around the back of it.
And people noticed something odd coming out of the sky.
And it was like a described like a bullet shaped or like, you know, like a rocket type, you know, like a kid's drawing of a rocket shape kind of thing.
And it came down, it landed behind some trees.
We had a field.
And all the residents were what, many of the residents were watching it.
There were some mentioned in a report by Bephora.
And the names of many are mentioned in there.
But one particular lady, she saw two humanoid figures.
I say humanoid because they look human.
They are human-like, you know, the arms and legs and head and everything.
And there's a sketch in the book.
Yes.
And they're wearing what she described as these, I can only describe like radiation protection suits.
You know, when you get like a radiation fallout and you see those people with the helmets, the big silver-like suits on, designed to protect you from more hazardous events.
That's what they seem to be wearing.
And they were walking side by side.
They came up the field and walked back.
And they seemed to have some sort of stripe down the center or the side of their side of their suit.
And then they walked back to where this object had been seen landed.
The craft itself took off.
No noise, I understand.
No signs of propel or propulsion or means of that we would be aware of.
And sometime later on, no more than, I don't know, maybe within the hour or by very soon, the military were on site and people quickly began to suspect that something out of the ordinary had very much happened there.
And yeah, when I went up to North Wales one time, I actually met the lady who still lived in the area and saw it and she told us what had happened.
And, you know, she was very, she was very sincere and very truthful about it.
And I just thought, wow, you know, that's just amazing for North Wales.
North Wales in particular has some very interesting cases, but as well as the South.
You talk about the incident in 1983, which is not quite North Wales, it's more coastal mid-Wales, isn't it?
Near Aberustworth, often referred to as the Europe equivalent of Roswell, a strange UFO incidence, debris found over an area of farmland that they were never really able to explain.
Yes, this is a man named Gary Rose, like a veteran in UFO research and cases.
This is one of his really interesting ones.
He produced a video of it called The European Roswell with another researcher.
I can't remember his name right now, but it's called The European Roswell.
And according to what he told me and what's in the book, you know, there was some debris over some farmland area.
He was called, he and his team, to maybe come and have a look at it.
But as they were sort of like trying to get ready to get there, it seems like somebody came in, cleaned up the area, took most of the debris away, if not all of it, dug up the top layer of soil in certain areas, chopped down some trees and left without so much as, well, you know, saying goodbye, I guess.
They just came in, came out, came in, cleaned up, went away.
And Gary and his team were quite dumbfounded by this, but he figured, you know, as good as they may be, they're not going to get it all.
He looked around and after some persistence, He found a piece of this mysterious material that was said to be over an area of four large fields, apparently.
And he's had it analyzed and he's got it in a lockbox even to this day.
And apparently, it's like some sort of aircraft material, but it's like it's got some sort of honeycomb, like tinfoil-looking honeycomb thing.
You can stand on it with your full weight.
You wouldn't even put a dent in it, apparently.
But it's very light as well.
So it's very, very durable and strong, but it's very light.
And there's like this green paint material on the outside as well.
And the paint, he says, has some sort of very strong aerodynamic qualities to it.
It would be very useful to stick it on our jets and our planes even today because it's so resistant to airflows and drag and stuff like that.
So echoes of Roswell there.
Any hieroglyphics, any hieroglyphs, that sort of thing there?
I didn't see it on the piece that he showed me, no, but it would be interesting if someone did recover something like that.
Maybe a whistleblower could come forward for that one.
But as far as I know.
And again, the question being, why the great interest?
Why the cleanup team?
Why the total cleanup?
You know, where's the hurry?
Exactly.
I mean, there's remnants of this with Penturk and with Denby as well, with the chopping down of trees and the removal of things from the local sites.
I mean, all done quickly, hush, hush, rushed.
And no one seems to know why when you ask about it.
There's the Beryn Mountains incident of 1974, which is often trotted out by the media, sometimes when they've got a quiet day as being one of the great cases.
And indeed it was.
This is an astonishing case that kind of has it all.
It's an all-singing, all-dancing thing.
Just remind us of this thing.
This is the Bering Mountains, as far as I can recall from my trips to North Wales, that's when you go beyond Snowdonia, isn't it?
If you're heading out towards Monmouth, not Monmouth, when you're heading out towards what's that place where they did the prisoner, you know, the village that I put Mary in.
Yeah, there's a series of mountains over there, which I can't remember the name of them, but they're known as Cara Bearwyn and Cara Bronwyn and a number of others.
There's like a series of mountains there, which make up a very beautiful landscape.
But the Bearwyn Mountain is a very incredible case because there was evidence of an explosion, some large rocking explosion that rocked people's houses, shook the ground, made people very uncomfortable.
It actually measured a 3.6 on the Riptar scale, I do believe.
And military again, quickly on site.
Local residents thought that maybe a plane had crashed, you know, a large plane.
And, you know, the fuel line probably exploded the main body of the plane.
And we have to say that the rumble, the tremor from this, you said it was a 3.6.
It was first.
My parents moved from Crosby and lived out their lives near Formby, which is not far from Southport.
That's miles away across Liverpool Bay, and they felt the impact of whatever this was in 1974 there.
Just shows you how powerful it was, wasn't it?
Tonus seems to be astonishing case.
Well, again, there's a connection to Smilog there, just quickly with Pentur.
I mean, that explosion was felt, or heard, I should say, very clearly for some, like five, six, seven miles away.
And that shook the ground, that measured on the Richter scale, not as clearly as the Berwin Mountain one, but one lady in particular, I think her name was Pat, she was driving with her two teenage daughters and she saw some glowing red object or something like that.
And it looked like the military had lights on it and spotlights on it, like they were studying it.
And I learned a lot about this even more by probably the main researcher on this one, I think, anyway, Scott Felton.
He's actually done a lot of good work on this.
But it was there for a while.
And then apparently, those who may have seen something afterwards, this thing took off and then headed out to the North Sea, you know, the North area of Wales over the sea, but probably may have been seen from Liverpool as well.
Now, talking of North Wales, Chester is not too far away.
We know that there is some military involvement.
There's certainly a thriving still-today aviation sector there.
There's Harden Airport there.
Do we think that there could be any connection with the military involvement, the military manufacture in that area just adjacent, right next to North Wales?
I wouldn't be surprised.
I mean, it always helps to have these facilities close by because that way you can stay on location, but at the same time, give the facade that you're just doing military aviation stuff.
And maybe you're probably working on something more secret.
I wouldn't be surprised.
I would not be surprised if there was an under, you know, a lot of people have speculated, and I think it could be some truth in it, that there's an underground base there somewhere in the North Wales area, maybe out to sea even.
A lot of objects have been seen coming in and out of the ocean, you know.
Have they?
Yeah, I've had a few people tell me this.
I'm even investigating one now.
I'm just waiting for some information to come through about, yeah, some lady, I can't remember, I can't describe the object.
It's like some sort of V-shaped object, which seems to have these unusual ridge lines going through it based on a diagram.
Flying very low over the sea, not making any noise.
She and her partner saw it, and she got in contact with me after seeing me and Kaz talk about it on the Penturk incident.
And yeah, so I thought that's interesting.
I'd like to look into that because it's a fresh case also.
I missed some information to back it up.
There's no radar.
Someone posted radar returns for that time.
And of course, he's done a diagram and we've got some local information as well.
So it's, you know, it's something that I can get my teeth into.
And if you don't want to tell me, you don't have to, but where was this?
Was this in the deep water off Flandidno, somewhere like that?
Oh, it was not too far from the coast.
God, I do have it somewhere.
Where's my notes?
Don't you just hate that?
I've got no problems telling me.
I just try to find my notes here.
For listeners' benefit, I know because I grew up in that area and I'm very familiar with North Wales, you know, as a as a whole.
There is an amazing topography there.
You have to.
Is there a place called Flandadno up there?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, it's a holiday.
It's around there.
And you've got the mountain.
You've got a mountain where, in fact, one of my relatives, I'm talking about in a previous generation, a long time ago, actually lived in the foothills of the Great Orme, the mountain at Landidno there.
So what we're saying is the mountains virtually come down to the sea.
And then there is this deep area of sea.
It's the Irish Sea, effectively.
If you turn left, you go to Dublin.
If you go north, then you go to the Isle of Man or Scotland or the Lake District.
You know, there is a lot of deep water.
But immediately inland, the mountains virtually come right down to the sea.
It's an astonishing area.
So if you were going to have USOs, undersea objects like that, appearing, then that would be the kind of mysterious area of water that they would be appearing from.
I mean, are you hoping to make some headway with that case?
Well, I've just been contacting the Freedom of Information again.
I've just asked local airports and Coast Guards if they've had any reports or sightings or something.
So I'm just trying to get some information, but there doesn't seem to have been any other reports made about it except these two.
I'm just maybe hoping that someone might have recorded something for that time.
Okay, well, I will say what I often say here.
You'd be amazed at the number of people who are reached by this podcast and the TV show.
But if you know anything about this or you've seen something like this in that area, sort of.
I think it was in August of 2020 when they said they saw it.
So if you were there in the summer of 2020, maybe you've seen something.
Maybe you didn't.
I don't know.
All right.
So if you were in that kind of North Wales area, maybe you were on a day trip from Liverpool, maybe you lived there, anywhere along that band of coast by the sea, and you saw something of the kind that we've described here, then please let me know and I'll pass it straight on to Gary.
Gary, let's get on to the Denby Lights case then, which is the meat of this book.
And you've done some fabulous research about this.
What is it that piqued your interest about the Denby Lights case?
We have to say it is just over 11 years ago now.
It ties in with the time we started the investigation with Pentecock.
Obviously, that was in February of 2016.
Kaz, I'd made contact with Kaz on October of 2017.
So once we got information from them, we could start really doing some real deep dive research.
And I was looking around for video evidence of any UFOs around this time, and I came across the video of the Denby lights one.
But I was like, well, that's really interesting.
Those lights are very odd.
And it was only like a 30-second clip, but I kept it in mind anyway, because I really had an interest in that one.
That was like December of 2017.
And then one day I was up in North Wales and I was asking the family, could I meet them?
And they were very happy to meet me.
And I asked them about the case.
And then they said, we got video.
And I was like, oh, can I have a look at this video?
And they happily showed it to me.
And they put it up on the big screen.
Now, this is like, you've got like nine minutes of video footage here, nearly 10 minutes, maybe.
And I'm like, you've actually got all this.
And nobody's really done a full analysis on it.
I was like, has anybody actually done an investigation with this?
And they told me that a local researcher named Peter Glenn had done it.
He'd done a preliminary investigation, done some good work with it.
And I just looked at his work and I realized, you know, I could really take this further.
I could really expand upon it and really just bring it to light.
Because I thought to myself, it's not often you get video footage this long of something like that.
And I just knew we had good, great witnesses with the family members who saw it and the conditions were not right for the night for anyone to be doing these things.
I just thought, come on now.
This is clearly obvious, not a typical helicopter drone explanation.
This is something very unusual indeed.
So I was committed to looking into this.
And I first did a documentary on it, my own little video documentary.
And later on, I just decided, you know, I really would like to do a book on it because as I say with the cover, The Dembilites, a truthful argument for the existence of UFOs.
I was always convinced that UFOs were real because I'd seen one when I was seven.
What did you see when you were seven?
I was going to talk to you about your history with these things, but you know, at that age, obviously made an impact.
What did you see?
Oddly enough, something of a similarity to this one, which is what I saw maybe I did sort of see maybe in the video.
But theirs was different to mine because I saw something oval shaped when I was seven.
Me and my friends were playing in the street.
It was during the summer school holidays.
Pretty dark, although there was some evident slim daylight on the other side of the sky.
But in the other area where it was really dark, we saw this oval object.
It was hovering silently.
It didn't make any noise.
And it had these unusual lights off of it.
It was like a red, yellowish, orange kind of glow.
It moved like a lava lamp, you know, it had a sort of like globular lava-looking flow to it around its rim.
But the way the lights moved, I often describe it like the Knight Rider car, you know, you ever seen it in your red light that would move back and forth.
You know, you had the red dot light, you know, it sort of had the faded, shady sort of effect following it.
It moved like that, but more fluid-like.
And it had these like bluish tints around the edges of the lights as well.
Seven years of age, did you tell anybody?
I think I told a few people.
Yeah, but obviously one of my friends even jokingly said it was a UFO, but we're seven years old.
We just thought UFO men was something that's just like an unusual craft.
We didn't realize the significance of what we were looking at.
But interesting, just to chime in here, the witnesses of this incident in 2012, the Denby Lights, we're talking about Nathan and Alex.
I think they were teenagers, brothers.
They shot the video on their pretty good Toshiba recorder, camcorder.
Then we've got Linda Pritchard, who adds to it in that she describes it very well, and it sounds a lot like what you saw when you were seven, that these lights appeared to be at the same time stationary but rotating.
Yes.
There's also another person who saw it as well, Kira George.
I can tell you the quick story as to how it went down.
Let's do that.
Let's do the groundwork.
Yeah.
Okay, so Nathan Thomas was 12 at the time.
It was January 3rd, 2012, as I say.
So 3 a.m. in the morning.
He's watching TV.
He hears a noise outside.
There's a loud bang.
He goes to investigate.
It's his big rubbish bin that's been blown over by the wind.
And he can see in the distance that there's something glowing or sparkling.
And he thought it's the TV reflecting off the window here.
Then he realizes it's not.
He opens the window and sees there's something in the distance acting very strange.
And, you know, a bit excited about this now, he goes to wake up his brother who's trying to sleep.
And I can't remember the exact words he used, but I think he said it's like a strange UFO object outside.
And Alex thought Nathan was winding him up.
But no, he goes there, you know, and he opens the window.
And yeah, he's instantly drawn to it as well.
And Nathan for Christmas, I made the mistake of saying his birthday in one podcast, but it was for Christmas.
He had that camera you mentioned, the Camellio S30 Toshiba make.
And they just started recording.
And I got to give the boys credit for having the, you know, to the temerity, is it?
And the foresight to actually just start videoing.
The presence of mind to do it.
And as you say, you know, they were involved in it.
Linda Pritchard saw it.
And then Kira George, the other of the four witnesses, she was woken by the commotion.
We have to remind people, two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, middle of the night, a storm is happening.
So these are not flying conditions.
What could this be?
Well, that's the thing.
I mean, I interviewed the family.
They're all convinced that this is a noble-shaped object.
I mean, it wasn't just rotating and sort of like saying like on a horizontal line.
You know, it started to move vertical upwards of a 30 to 40 degree angle.
And you can see that in the documentary that I made.
It's clear for there to see.
They know it's not the golf course.
They know it's not the quarry.
They know it's not the farmer.
And there's nothing that they see regularly that would explain this light's actions and movements, even the way they lit up.
They were very bright, fluid-like lights, and they sort of dimmed very strangely.
Well, Nathan says in the book, and I'm going to quote from the book, Nathan appears to accept that the lights of the UAP may have been camouflaged or that possibly the object may have possessed the ability to cloak itself.
Yeah, yeah, that's their words, not mine.
Based upon what they were seeing, it was interesting that they could see a sort of outline with their eyes.
The camera doesn't pick it up so well.
But I mean, I think one of the reasons they say that is because at some point, the lights just suddenly go off.
And, you know, Nathan and Alex and all that are really, and Kira at this point, they're all, oh, where is it?
You know, and it's like, Alex, I remember him saying, oh, don't stop.
And I mean, when the lights were actually there, I mean, they viewed it for 15 minutes.
And I think Nathan and Alex in particular were worried that maybe the government might come and I don't know, threaten them or take them away or something like that.
But Linda They did contact the police, first of all, to sort of show them what it was about.
They decided that it was ramblers and nothing more, but not before they confirmed that there was no helicopters out that night, none of theirs or anyone else's.
So that was a good confirmation.
The local researcher, Peter Glynn, then was contacted by them.
He came in and he went up to the site, you know, with the farmland area to see if there was any human activity.
There was none.
He took a day-night comparison of the window area just to show you where the lights were actually more or less coming from.
Interviewed the family, got some real good testimony on video very quickly, you know, fresh as their minds could be.
And, you know, he put together a very interesting report, which I acknowledge in the book.
And I just knew, you know, I said I could take this and really expand upon it because I really try to cover all bases.
And I was able to put this book together, the Denby lights.
And I mean, one of the things I do in the book, when you asked me earlier, what could it be?
I mean, well, let's take a look.
I mean, let's examine it.
Is it lights coming from the golf course?
Well, the golf course is over to the left.
It's not in line with the actual thing.
There's a quarry over to the right.
Could it be some working night maybe?
Well, again, it's off-center and well over to the right of the line of lights.
This obviously isn't anything like that.
Is it drones?
Is it fireworks?
Is it sparklers?
Is it people hunting?
Well, there was a suggestion in the book that, and I have to explain the term for people not in the UK.
There was a suggestion that what was seen may have been so-called lampers.
These are people who go out hunting using bright lights.
Yes, to cause the eyes of the creatures, the eye, the back of the eye of the creature's lens to flare up, like the optical nerve areas and all that.
The lights make them stand out very, very clearly.
So that's how they hunt them or trap them.
Yeah, lampers, that's one of the things that they use.
They use these big spotlights to shine in the eyes of the creature to see where they are.
But who would have been out in a storm like that in the middle of the night?
No one.
No one.
And as far as I know, it's farmland and I don't think the farmer gives permission for that stuff anyway.
And I think you checked in with the farmer, didn't you, in one of your investigations and confirmed that there was nothing and no one around at that time.
Yeah, the family spoke.
I think the family contacted him and they relayed that information back To me, I mean, he doesn't work that night anyway, he never works at 90.
And there was a, I mean, Alex sent me a video of the tractor lights that you know would be rotating around on the top of the vehicle.
And I said, Well, that's probably the closest thing I've seen, but it doesn't even match up to that.
You know, I mean, that kind of light on a tractor is not going to permeate the darkness in that way.
It's going to be seen for 100 yards, maybe.
It's not going to rotate.
It's not going to tilt.
It's not going to go up like a 30, 40 degree angle, and it's certainly not going to just have multiples of flashing lights, large lights, small lights, condensed, packed area of lights, all flickering and shining in a very unusual way, unlike anything you see on an aircraft or vehicle or ground vehicle of any kind.
Was there one object or more?
No, I think there was one solid object.
And the thing is, as well, there's a red light on top of this object.
The family did notice that.
I mean, they said there was this red light on top, and then around the center of it, you know, there was other flashing bluish lights were really going going mad at some points.
They seem to be very clear in the book on their estimate of the size, 60, 70 feet across, apparently.
Yes, there was the ester.
I asked them, could you maybe give me an idea of how big these things were, all the lights?
And they said, well, they had an idea of rough estimate because Linda was convinced, and she's probably correct on this, that wherever the source of the lights was coming from, it wasn't all the way up in the farm area.
We're talking somewhere close to a football field behind the row of houses that you can see in the distance.
It's called Kai Howell or Kai Howell, I think is how you pronounce it.
And we walked that area.
She said the lights were probably coming from, yeah.
So I did a little analysis using Google Earth as a means of measurements and distance.
And I took the two landscapes I could see in the video and the daylight images, furthest left light and the furthest right shining light.
And I thought, okay, let's just line it up to the line of sight and see how far we go here.
And when I put it to 60, 70 feet distance, it was around that area.
So I think that that was a pretty good way of putting the estimations together.
Now, you're dealing with North Wales Police here.
And in the book, you say North Wales Police did not confirm or deny the existence of any information, but they were unable to release it and are empowered to issue a refusal notice.
In other words, you asked for information from North Wales Police and didn't get any.
No, I trouble it.
There's a lot of data protection stuff in there as well, which, I mean, maybe one day I'll get my hands on it, but I'm going to work with the family at some point and see if maybe I can get the permissions from them and see what legal stuff I have to get around in order to get their report.
Because I know the report's there.
The police were notified.
That much is true.
Now, Jason Gleaves from Eufonly, based in Chester, old friend of mine.
I often send him pictures and moving video that people have sent me of things that they have seen.
And very often, Jason will say, well, it's not what they think it is.
You know, more often than not, Jason will say, there's a rational explanation of what this is.
It was the sun being at a particular angle over the North Sea at that time or the Irish Sea, whatever.
But occasionally he'll come back to me.
He has a few times with, we genuinely cannot explain this.
It is an unidentified aerial phenomenon, whatever it might be.
Now, you gave Jason the video, the video that the two boys shot on that Toshiba camera.
What did Jason say?
As he says pretty much in the video, he puts it in text format, actually, but what he basically says is that it's clearly an object that's solid.
Obviously, the lights are in a strange and unusual formation.
He confirms that it's not coming from the golf course or, you know, there's no landmarks that would suggest that this is coming from someone stationary on the ground.
And he doesn't believe that he doesn't believe that this is a drone because even the technology at that time was not very widespread as it is now.
But again, you know, the family are very convinced of what they're seeing.
But this is a normal shaped craft.
And he also highlights in the report that it's tilting and rotating at the same time.
And yeah, a very unusual case.
And it has to remain, as he says, unexplained.
It's a genuine video.
This is a genuine, the video is genuine.
And whatever this thing is, it has to go down as unexplained.
So that's pretty much the gist of his report.
And there are some stills from the video.
I'm just looking at them in the book.
We have to say.
You ran this past my friend Malcolm Robinson in Scotland.
And here's a quote from the book.
He investigated the sighting and reported that the lights were not lanterns.
So Malcolm Robinson is as baffled as the rest of us by what this might have been.
Yes.
And I also asked him about a case that he, I think he may have.
There was one up in Scotland.
There's a story about it on the Mail Online.
And it's like a UFO that spent four hours hovering above a rural home.
And they captured video footage of it.
And some of the lights are very similar in the way that they shine and sometimes the configuration of them.
So I asked Malcolm about that myself.
And, you know, as he says, it's not lampers and it's not lanterns.
It's not fireworks.
I mean, we try to eliminate all the possible ideas before, obviously, we get into the more UFO, UAP type of stuff.
Seems to me that what you need for this and what may come forward with the publicity from the book, and I hope you get plenty of it, you need more witnesses.
They can't have been the only people to have seen this.
Yes, I know.
I mean, somebody else must have at least been peeping out of a window somewhere in the area.
That tends to happen when you get more publicity on a case.
Suddenly, someone comes along and says, oh, I'm on now.
I may have, you know, they may have mistaken the lights for something else themselves.
You know, I've probably forgotten all about it.
And then they'll think back, I'm on storm, strange lights.
They'll put the two together, and suddenly, yeah, you know, I may get more.
I do have four great witnesses.
I think all the family are great witnesses because they stand by what they say, even to this day, despite all the ridicule and flack they get, especially Nathan.
I mean, I just want to say this: you know, Nathan has really become, well, I wouldn't say, I don't think he regrets speaking out about it, but he's almost like now, I wish I hadn't said nothing because of the ridicule it gives him.
People have given him, I should say.
And I just think that's sad, you know, for people to be acting like that.
I mean, come on now.
This is the 21st century, not like silly, silly 1950s when we were mocking everyone online about it or on TV, I should say.
Absolutely.
And you say that these are totally credible witnesses.
There's another element to this.
Maybe just at the end of this, we'll talk about this.
They have a neighbor, David Williams is his name.
He had an experience of something and actually has iPad recorded footage of it one week before this happened.
No, what he did was that he took an image from the original video from Nathan and he was able to enhance it to such a point that you could see the real outline of the top part of it at least and the lights that shimmer in the center and the red light on top as well.
And I was like, wow, how did you manage to do that?
Because I've tried capturing screenshots from this video and I can't even get anywhere near as good as that.
I can get something similar, but not as much as you've managed to bring it out.
So he must have gotten that really rare screenshot, you know, from the whole nine minutes of video to really bring it to light.
But no, he said about a week before this incident, I believe, that, yeah, about a week before, that there was he probably witnessed something similar from that area.
And I said, well, do you remember what it looked like?
He said, yeah, it was sort of sort of similar looking lights and configuration.
It was a very strange, unusual set of lights.
And I just thought, oh, that's kind of interesting because I remember that I think it was a week before or a week after somebody around the Denby Castle area in the daytime had taken a photograph of some disc-shaped object not too far away from where this particular thing happened.
So it tends to be true that when an object that's been seen so clearly like this for so long seems to stay present for a while in the area, maybe a few days or a week or so, before it moves on and does something else.
So that tends to be true.
People see a lot of strange things before a main sighting happens like that.
They do.
And if you look at famous cases like Rendlesham Forest, there were experiences at Rendlesham Forest before the main event, if you want to call it that.
I think it's an incredible story.
One of the impressive things about it, it's always the hallmark of a credible story, I think, is that the people that you've spoken to, you haven't only spoken with the principal witnesses once, you've spoken with them a number of times, and their story, and I find this with people that I interview, the story does not change.
If you look at people like the abductee Calvin Parker, totally sincere man, and if he or his people hear this, I know he's had some health issues.
I'm wishing him well at the moment, and I hope that, you know, he's able to speak with us at some point.
But the most important thing is that he makes, you know, his health is the prime concern is what I'm saying.
But, you know, Calvin, you talk with Calvin.
I've talked with him a number of times and his story is absolutely consistent.
And it's not as if he's reading from notes in front of him.
It's all in his head because he experienced it.
Ditto with these people in North Wales.
Their story has not wavered, has not changed.
And as you say, they're completely credible.
So where does it leave you, Gary?
What are you going to do about it now?
Well, I'm just going to try and promote the book for now.
Hopefully, I might be able to get some more information in the future.
Maybe some more witnesses will come forward.
I would like, if possible, to, you know, I'm always interested to see if some TV companies that want to do a show on it, you know, do something with it.
Because I think, you know, as I say in the top of the headline here, the Denby lights a truthful argument for the existence of UFOs.
The reason I call it a truthful argument is because, you know, everybody's talking about, oh, I think they're real, I think they're real, but show me one that says it is, you know what I mean?
Show me a case.
And I always like to point them to this one because, you know, okay, maybe it's not the retnex Rendlesham Forbes or Berwin Mountain or Penturk incident, but it's a real solid, very well documented case.
And there's no denying that this is an unidentified aerial phenomena or UFO event.
It's unexplained.
It's been examined from all angles you could possibly imagine.
There's nothing else to debate about it.
It's genuine and it's confirmed.
So I would just like to point people to that particular one.
So if you'd like to buy the book from Amazon, Denby Lights, and see for yourself, see the documentary I made as well.
The Denby Lights, a truthful argument for the existence of UFOs by Gary Jones, who we've been speaking with.
It's one of Philip Mantle's excellent flying disc publications.
I'm very lucky to have a hardback copy.
And I recommend it because of the clarity with which you tell the story, Gary.
Well done, and I wish you well with the book.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Howard.
The amazing story of the Denby Lights, the book about it, is out now from Philip Mantle's Flying Disc Press.
And by me, massively recommended.
More great guests in the pipeline here at the Home of the Unexplained.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
And one thing that I will say at the end of this one, just so that people know, please be aware of fire in your home and look for possible sources of it.
And if you don't have a smoke alarm, and I didn't, get one.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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