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Oct. 16, 2022 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:05:28
Edition 671 - Dan Baldwin/George Sewell

A Strange - and complex - story from Louisiana. Dowser Dan Baldwin and researcher George Sewell on the strange case of Lindsey Higgins - they ask the question can alien abduction experiences go back beyond the grave - to before reincarnation?

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
My name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Well, I hope that everything is great with you wherever you happen to be.
I know that Mr. Sunshine has moved from northern hemisphere to southern hemisphere now.
So I'm looking out the window here.
It's kind of late afternoon, early evening, and it's grey, and it looks like it's going to rain at any second.
So after all of those days of temperatures in the high 30s and even early 40s here in London, six weeks later, that's all forgotten and it's autumn now.
That's the weather report from London Town.
Hope that your weather report is always sunshine.
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Shout outs, Ted in Norwich, nice to hear from you.
And Sharon in San Croix in Canada.
Nice to hear from you.
And Lee, long-term listener Lee, got in touch to tell me about something that I wonder, have you heard about this?
Apparently out there now is a declassified Area 51 staff manifest, so-called, from 1979 to 1990.
Apparently, according to Lee, one name on it is Bob Lazar, and the second apparently was a contractor, it claims, for a CCTV company, Art Bell.
Now, I've got to honestly say that I'm very, very skeptical about that, but I wonder if you've heard anything about it and whether you can maybe assist my inquiries, as they say in police stations all over my country, into that thing.
Does this staff manifest actually exist?
Because it sounds most unlikely to me, and those who might be possessors of such staff manifests are hardly going to let them get into the public domain easily.
I would have thought.
But look, let's not be too cynical, and let's not be too skeptical.
Maybe there is such a staff manifest, but I highly doubt that the name of Art Bell would be on it, because in that period, wasn't he beginning to be the star that he became on radio?
Certainly in the latter part of it.
So, you know, I think that Art was always pretty much, apart from his military service, a broadcaster, a little bit of work in technology.
But I think in this period, he was on air, unless you can tell me different.
Thank you to Adam, my webmaster, who's traveling a lot and working hard for getting these shows out to you and for maintaining the website, theunexplained.tv.
Don't forget my Facebook page, the official Facebook page of The Unexplained with Howard Hughes.
Let's get into the topic for this one then.
The case of Lindsay Higgins.
This is a strange story from Louisiana, USA.
And we're going to be talking with two people about this who've collaborated not only on a book to do with it, but also on an edition of a Netflix TV series called Haunted.
Apparently, season one, episode five, this was.
So, you know, it's had coverage, this case.
Dan Baldwin, we've had on the show before talking about dowsing.
His biography says he's a professional writer, often a ghost writer for other professionals, written and co-written or ghosted more than 50 books and has won numerous local, regional, and national awards.
He's a certified clinical hypnotherapist, plays the Native American flute, and importantly, is an expert pendulum douser, having used the pendulum to assist in finding missing people for more than 15 years.
You might remember that conversation that we had with him.
George Sewell, who is the other person you'll be hearing here, assuming this three-way conversation is going to work technically, describes himself as a cognitive philanthropist, active in all aspects of theater.
His undergraduate degree is speech and journalism.
He also has a Master of Arts degree in drama and communications.
As a playwright, he's written plays for community theatre, college theater, and dinner theater.
Vocationally, he is a retired counselor and licensed prevention professional, program manager, administrator in the field of addictive disorders, including problem gambling.
He also had, I understand, involvement with MUFON, which he was a part of.
So two people here, and a story that's going to be very hard to distill, but that's my job.
I've got to get focus here because this story is highly, highly unusual.
In fact, I don't know of another one quite like it.
That appears to combine paranormality, UFO, or rather alien abduction.
Let's leave the UFOs out of it for now.
And past lives, reincarnation.
It's a strange conglomeration, mixture of a story.
And, you know, we're going to have to work hard to keep all the different strands of this nice and clear and focused.
So cross your fingers for me as we cross to the United States now and talk with Dan Baldwin and George Sewell about the astonishing case of Lindsey Higgins.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for coming on my show.
Well, delighted to be here.
Well, that's George and Dan.
You're here, both of them now, so we have connection.
And listen, the two of you are in different places, aren't you?
One of you in Louisiana and one of you somewhere else, Arizona.
Yeah, George is in Louisiana in the heat and the mugginess, and I'm over here way over in Arizona out in the actual Sonoran desert.
Okay.
So it's absolutely dry where you are.
Quite, quite.
All right.
Well, we're going to do this thing as a three-way conversation, and I think it's going to work.
I've tried to describe from your biography and your biographical material what you both are and what you both do.
Dan, I know of you from the conversation that we had about dousing a while back, which I thoroughly enjoyed.
George, you are, I was trying to describe you in the introduction to this.
You know, a lot of work with theater and counseling, it seems.
And I also understand from a conversation that I heard you do with somebody else, work with MUFON, the UFO people?
Yeah.
Yeah, back in the late 1980s, early 1990s, I was the assistant state director for Louisiana for MUFON.
Okay.
And how did you two guys get together?
This would have been the late 1970s.
There was a monthly publication in Shreveport called The Voice, and I was the theater cinema reviewer for that publication.
And Dan was a feature article writer.
And the editor of that publication, Ed Gage, said, George, I think you need to meet this guy, Dan.
He said, Dan, I think you need to meet this guy, George.
And we met, and it's been unabashed mischief ever since.
And Dan, I mean, this story is entirely based in Shreveport, Louisiana, isn't it?
Yeah, exactly.
In fact, it's based at, we'll get into this later during the program, but it's based in Shreveport, Bosier City for the last 200 years.
Yeah, because of the reincarnation aspect of it.
Exactly, exactly, yeah.
Now, as I said to my listener in the introduction to this, this is one of a number over the years that I've done of very, very complicated stories.
It's not convoluted, but it's got a lot of twists and turns and aspects to it.
So, George, let me ask you, how would you describe this story?
Is this story a story of alien abduction?
Is it a story of paranormality?
Is it a story of reincarnation?
You know, if we want to pigeonhole it, what is it?
Yes to all of the above.
And Dan, how come you believe that these three things have come in conjunction in one person, i.e.
Lindsey Higgins?
Well, again, that's a complex story, but George and I have been working on God everything since the 1970s.
In recent years, I've been working on my paranormal pendulum books.
And I got to dowsing, using dowsing technique to make contact with the spirit world.
And then George was a key researcher, key assistant, and key guide, as it were, in Paranormal Pendulum 2, which explored the paranormal world.
And that led to meeting Lindsey Higgins, which led into the UFO reincarnation paranormal multiple lives area of investigation.
This was all done.
You'll need to talk to George a little bit about this.
But bringing in the connection between the UFO world and the paranormal world, there was a spirit involved in putting this whole thing together, bringing Lindsay to George and Lindsay to George and me to do the investigation.
And that was the spirit of an actress by the 1900s, 19th century Kate Bateman was her name.
She was a famous actress back in the 19th century.
And she really put the team together.
Right.
How so?
Yeah, George, why don't you take that part?
Since it's theater, George, I think it should be you.
What we thought would be a fairly straightforward investigation using the pendulum dowsing as the primary investigative tool to learn what was happening with Lindsay regarding what appeared to be abductions by non-human entities, as well as any number of other paranormal experiences that she's had all of her life.
In fact, at the age of two, Lindsay recalls, this is a memory.
Her father is a noted restaurateur in Shreport, Louisiana.
And at that time, he had purchased a train station in downtown Shreport called Central Station.
He really loved trains.
And he turned the downstairs part of the station into a really nice restaurant.
And the family lived upstairs on the second floor.
Wow.
When the restaurant was in operation, little two-year-old Lindsay would be upstairs in her room pretty much by herself.
And one fine sunny day, she was looking out of the big, huge window.
It's in the room, and she wanted to go outside and play.
And shortly thereafter, some people walking into the restaurant noticed a toddler bounding around the large balcony on the second floor.
And they brought that to her parents' attention.
They rushed upstairs, brought her back inside, closed the window, and tried to figure out how on earth did that large, double-hung, heavy window get lifted for her to escape.
There was nobody else upstairs other than her younger sister who was in a crib in another room.
And Lindsay said, well, my friend Morlock opened it for me so I could go outside and play.
Lindsay was two and a half and said that.
Yes.
And she signed the name Morlock to this spirit friend.
She doesn't know why she called him Morlock, but that's just what she called him.
So let's be clear about this, because I've said that there are lots of aspects to this story.
We have to be very clear about them.
But the very young Lindsay, and also I want to get an idea of how you became aware of her story, because I don't think we covered that.
But the very young Lindsay, aged two and a half, managed to get out of the place where she, as a two and a half year old, how do you get out outside a closed, heavy window like that?
I don't know.
But age two and a half, she told her parents that there was a helper that wasn't somebody they knew who did that.
Yeah, she said it was her friend, Morlock, and her father asked, well, what does Morlock look like?
And she described a tall, thin, gray-haired fellow.
And her parents smoked cigarettes at the time, so she was familiar with smoking, but she was not familiar with cigars.
And she was trying to describe how Morlock enjoyed smoking a big brown thing.
And that kind of clicked with her parents because they would often encounter the aroma of cigar Smoke in various parts of the building when nobody was smoking cigars.
So from the get-go, her father had a hunch that if, in fact, there was a spirit involved, that he had an idea who it might be.
And that kind of led to Dan and I getting involved in for the search of Morlock.
In fact, Dan was in town.
We were downtown having some pendulum sessions at various locations.
And I said to Dan, well, since we're downtown, let's go by the old central station and see if any spirits are present.
And if so, there's a story I would like to see if they can validate as true.
Right.
So obviously by the time that you got to going to the place where the restaurant was, where this incident happened, you obviously knew all about Lindsay's story.
Lindsay was much older by this time.
Who had alerted you to her story?
I got a phone call in September 2017 one night out of the blue.
The phone rang, did not recognize the number or anything, but I had a hunch, I better go ahead and take this call, and I did.
And I said, hello.
Is this George Sewell?
Yes.
This is Lindsay Higgin.
Joe Beth Baggett said, I should call you and we could talk.
And the next two hours, Lindsay was describing pretty much her life history of paranormal events and particularly some interactions with what we would call extraterrestrials.
The mutual friend was aware that back in the late 80s and 90s, I was affiliated with the mutual UFO network in Louisiana.
And so I had an understanding of this field, and that's why Joe Beth asked Lindsay to call me.
The reason Lindsay called JoBeth was just a couple of days prior, she made a decision that she had to get this out.
She'd been sitting on it all her life.
How old was she then?
She's in her 40s.
Okay, so she'd lived with this for 38 years.
At least, at least.
Nobody she could really talk to, just a few people like Joe Beth who knew a little bit about it.
But she just had to unburden, just let it out.
And she happened to listen to a podcast.
And the podcast mentioned a Los Angeles production company that was looking for true stories of paranormal that people had experienced all their lives.
And she decided, well, that's how I'm going to do it.
So she wrote up basically a concise version of her life story and sent it out to the production company.
And 12 hours later, they give her a call back and say, okay, we need to set up a formal interview.
And they set up a formal Skype interview with the production company.
And they said, okay, you're in.
We're going to do this.
And that turned into a Netflix episode for a Netflix series called Haunted.
It was season one, episode five.
Episode five.
I mentioned this at the beginning of the introductions.
That's very specific.
And that's still out there to be seen.
Yes, yes.
Anybody's got that please can still access it.
But anyway, the production company asked if she knew of any people in Shreport or in the area who had similar experiences or were familiar with the UFO experience.
And that's when she talked to her friend Joe Beth.
And that's when Joe Beth said, well, talk to George.
He has some knowledge about what's going on in this area regarding UFOs.
And that was where we made contact.
Okay, Dan, I don't know whether you want to come in now, but can you give me the main points of her experiences, if you can give me like bullet points, because I know there's a lot involved in this, you know, up to the point when you actually had engagement with her, both of you.
So just talk to me about the kind of stuff that had been happening to this woman who suddenly decided in her 40s, I am going to tell my story.
Yeah, Lindsay's story, in many ways, involves what we call the typical alien experience.
You have the craft that comes down, you have the blazing light, you have the go-through-the-wall, you have the medical experimentations.
All of that is involved in her story.
The main impetus for us writing this book is because there are people in your audience listening to us right now who have had these experiences.
I know there's somebody out there listening.
And we're trying to tell people through Lindsay's story that you're not alone.
You're not crazy.
There are people out there who want to hear your story.
There are people out there who will help you get through whatever crisis you're going to.
But mainly, it's okay to say what's going on in your life.
And it's okay to tell people what's going on in your life.
And again, you're not alone.
Come on out and talk about it.
Get the word out.
Tell people what's happening to you.
Because there are thousands of people who've decided to come out with this, but it is estimated that there are many thousands more who are still reluctant to do it.
And these experiences, as you rightly say, Dan, they have commonalities.
They have common features about them.
What sorts of things?
You say that she'd endured experimentation and that kind of thing.
What did she, you know, people who go through those things, they have implants, they claim, and they have marks on their bodies and stuff like that.
Did she display any of that?
Yes, she definitely described having various symbols and marks on her body following various encounters, and they continue to this day.
One thing I need to point out, back during Georgia's MUFON days, I lived back in Louisiana at that time, and George would often have me accompany him as the objective observer to his interviews.
And something that is consistent, it was certainly in Lindsay's case, but it's certainly consistent in the cases that I sat in with George, was that these people aren't seeking publicity.
They're concerned about something very strange going on in their lives, and they're trying to find somebody who they can tell their story to and who maybe Can provide a couple of answers out there.
And that is certainly one of the main points that was affected Lindsay and her story.
You know, this crazy stuff is happening to me.
Can you give me some answers?
And you have to come out and ask the questions.
At the end of the telephone conversation I had with Lindsay, I was able to tell her that pretty much everything she told me, I had heard before from other people in different locations and different timeframes.
And that was a great assurance to her.
And then, you know, you were saying that she'd been through all of these things and that there are other people who have been through all of these things and there are commonalities in the story.
Let's just try to be as specific as we can be, though, about the way that these contact experiences she believes they are and were, you know, the way that they were conducted.
Would a being appear in her bedroom?
Would there be a bright light as many people describe at the start of it all?
What were the factors involved in those things?
Yeah, it's pretty much, as you've read in other cases, you know, you had the craft come down, you had the bright light, you had she would float through the walls, she would be on a, again, in her memory, she would be on a table, there would be medical experiments going on, you know, in her private part, so to speak.
You know, during her early childhood, she had a number of unexplained illnesses.
Severe abdominal pain was one of the cases.
And for over the years, she went to doctor after doctor after doctor, had examination after examination after examination.
And all they could come up was, yes, something is happening with you.
We don't know what it is.
But that was obviously a result of the abduction.
In this country, if a child, I don't know how young she was, I think I heard you mentioning in one interview that I listened to.
I think she was as young as nine when these sorts of things were happening.
In my country, if those things were happening and the child was going to school and maybe telling a friend about that, it wouldn't be very long before what they call social services were involved in this and the parents would perhaps be talked with about what's going on with your daughter and there would be investigations of that sort.
Do you know if any of that stuff happened with her?
No, she just related to her parents and they were to explain it.
And when they did have all the lab work done at one of the hospitalizations, the physicians just could find no diagnosis that would account for the discomfort that she was describing.
And the best they could come up with was because her mother was dying of cancer at the time that Lindsay was making this up just to get attention.
And of course, that was nonsense.
Or indeed, it may have been, I don't know, like sympathetic pain, you know, in harmony with her mother.
Yeah, but we believe what she says happened to her really actually happened to her.
We think the abduction, again, we don't particularly care for that particular term, but we believe the abductions were real.
The experimentation was real.
What happened to her was absolutely real.
Did she experience missing time, Dan?
She has not reported any episode of missing time.
She had enormous pain.
Again, that's fairly typical in the report.
She had enormous pain when the experimentation was going on.
And we have discovered again her contact experiences are still ongoing even as we speak today.
But we were able to address those beings who were experimenting on her.
And because she had a, we'll get into this later, because of a past life experience, she had agreed to the abductions.
She said, you know, I've agreed to do this, but can we do it without the pain?
And the entities that are doing this agreed, and she's had contact since she asked for the pain to stop, and the pain has gone away.
Well, that's interesting.
I've never heard of that happening before.
Why isn't she here talking to me now?
She's at work.
I know that's the nuts and bolts explanation, but I mean, generally, you know, if I made an appointment to speak with her at a time that was convenient that didn't involve her working, I'm just interested in why she's not telling her own story.
I guess that's a better way of putting it.
She did tell it in the Paranormal Pendulum Book 3.
That's the Lindsay story.
Okay, so she is available to be spoken with.
Yes, she is.
She's very articulate.
If you've seen the Netflix episode, she tells the story, and she has no issue telling the story.
In fact, she's wanting to get the word out as Daniel.
I think Dan, it's a brave thing to come out and want the story to be told.
What does she want from this?
For others to know that it's okay.
You're not alone.
And there are people who will listen.
And probably what you have experienced has happened to many, many other people.
And there may be some very good reasons for it.
That was one of the most interesting things that we discovered after the two years we were investigating the story was that this is nothing new, that 6,000 years ago, on a different realm, the spirit that we know as Lindsay and a very highly evolved being that for lack of a name we'll call E.T. Lindsay was asked to participate in the long-term project that would involve
benefiting Homo sapiens as well as other races.
And one of the reasons she was asked to participate is because she is an earth soul and she would be reincarnating and having that reincarnative pattern was something that apparently was essential to this long-term project.
And that, when that was discovered, that provided a bit of relief for Lindsay in that, okay, this is something I did agree to.
Well, if I agree to it, then let's go.
Let's continue it.
And that's where we were able to clear up, continue it without any discomfort or pain.
And the experiences that she had over time, did they leave her anguished?
In other words, did she want them to stop?
You told me that she'd agreed to carry on if there was no pain and the pain was abated and stopped.
But I wonder if over the years she became tired of it, fatigued with it, wanting it to end.
Oh, sure, sure.
And that's portrayed in the Netflix series that these instances were, in and of themselves, not pleasant, scary.
But with the investigation that we had, we were able to get a larger picture of what was occurring with Lindsay, and it made a little more sense and became less frightening.
I don't want this to sound harsh because I've heard many stories, and many of them are highly credible, as is this one.
But is she convinced, are you convinced that there is perhaps nothing going on psychologically that might create this kind of impression that she is having these contact experiences and other things happening to her?
In other words, did she ever, in the midst of it all, want to get herself checked out psychologically to make sure that she was okay in that way?
Yeah, if she did, I'm not aware of it.
Right.
Let me jump in here real quick, y'all.
Yes, Deb.
George knows her better than I do, but we've met with her.
You know, this book basically took two years to develop.
So we had lots and lots and lots of meetings in lots of different places and lots of different times and lots of different environments.
And to me, Lindsay's story is absolutely 100% true.
Right.
And you can tell a lot, can't you, Dan, by looking into the whites of somebody's eyes when they're telling a story.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, you know, she would have to be a genius to continue the same story without making a mistake over two years with all the probing and prodding and questioning and pendulum dowsing work that George and I involved her with.
And also, we had working with us for much of the two years two evidential mediums who were working very closely with Lindsay as well.
And they, of course, picked up on nothing that was fraudulent or false or otherwise fabricated.
It is a truly fascinating story.
And as we've said, and I'll say it again, there are many aspects to this.
So the two of you decide to go to the place that was the cradle, literally, for all of this, where it all began.
You went to the restaurant, come former train station that had been bought by her dad, and you tried to find out what might be present there.
What happened when you did that?
Well, there were four spirits present.
We were outside.
The station was closed at the time.
And I recited the story when Lindsay was two and a half and going out on the balcony.
And I asked, is this story true?
And we got a very clear, yes, the story is true.
And then, well, is one of the spirits present the one that she called Morlock?
Yes.
By chance, are you buried in the Oakland Cemetery, which is the oldest cemetery in Shreveport?
And the answer was yes.
And Dan and I were going to go to the cemetery that afternoon.
And we asked, well, would you direct us to your final resting place?
Yes.
And that kind of began the detective story.
And so you were led to that place.
Well, yeah, let me jump in here real quick.
Again, this is using pendulum dowsing techniques, but George and I showed up at the cemetery and brought out the pendulum and asked, you know, are there spirits here?
Is this a spirit we spoke with this morning?
Yes.
Would you take us to your grave?
Yes.
So we were led down into the cemetery to a specific area.
Now, the way we did this was using basic pendulum dowsing techniques.
Is the direction I need to go north, south, east, or west?
You would get a yes or a no.
And say you got a yes or north, you would go north and you would ask, do I go 100 paces?
Do I go 50 paces?
you get a yes or no.
So it's a big, You're mostly asking yes, no questions.
Yeah, you have to ask yes or no questions.
And using those techniques, we went to a grave, and it wasn't the grave of the guy we met.
It was somebody else.
And essentially, we were passed off to a friend of a friend.
And this friend of the friend led us on another journey throughout the cemetery up to the top of a hill.
And the new spirit took us to a place that was inhabited by the family, the W.D. Woodworth family.
And it was a rather prominent plotty grave, the iron fence around it, rather prominent markers there.
And we discovered that that was the source of Moorlock.
That wasn't Moorlock himself, but that was the source of Moorlock.
And that Lindsay, her dad, and her sister are the reincarnation of W.D. Woodworth, Sally Murph Woodworth, and the other daughter of W.D. Woodworth.
Belinda, right?
George, you were going to come in then.
So those people, those past people, when did they live?
Late 19th and early 20th century.
I don't mind who answers this, but how are you making the connection?
How was that link established?
We were led to the spirit who took us to another spirit who handed us off, who took us to the W.D. Woodward family plot.
And once we got there, we realized there was a major connection there.
And we just started investigating the Woodworth family with pendulum dowsing, with going through newspaper records and things like that.
So there is a past life, you think.
Reincarnative, if that's the word, aspect of this.
We had a number of sessions with W.D., the spirit of W.D. Woodworth, and with Sally Murph Woodworth, who is Lindsay Higgins in her present form.
And it was really interesting.
I recall one session we were having with Lindsay.
And at the same time, we were also Having conversations with the spirit of Sally Murph.
So we're talking to one aspect of Lindsay in the flesh here and now, and we're also communicating with part of her spirit as it was after she was Sally Murph Woodworth.
What a fascinating situation and dialogue that is.
How similar were they?
Are they?
As best we can tell, very because Sally Murph described or confirmed a lot of things occurring in her lifetime that are very similar with Lindsay.
And part of that was, did she have interactions with what we would call the extraterrestrials?
And it was yes.
And later we learned that it's been going on with Lindsay for thousands of years.
So of course it would have affected Sally Murph.
What was curious is that the same family combination, W.D. reincarnating as Lindsay's current father, Joe Fertita, Sally Murph reincarnating as Lindsay, and Mabel Woodworth reincarnating as Lindsay's sister, Melanie.
And those who've passed, W.D., Sally, the family as they were, are they aware that they are replicated in this time scale, here now?
No, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So they know what's going on today.
Yeah.
are the things we learned?
We need to redefine the term spirit.
It's not a...
It's the For example, again, as George said, we were conversing with the spirit in the spirit.
We're also conversing with the spirit in the flesh at the same time.
I mean, that sounds pretty unique to me.
I've never heard of that being done before.
Well, it's a big surprise to me.
I mean, it is utterly, truly, and I'm using that word again, fascinating.
Were they in the spirit world able to talk to you about the process of crossing over, of becoming, you know, reborn here?
Yeah, in fact, if you looked, the book that kind of led into this was called The Paranormal Pendulum 2.
And that is a compilation of a lot of interviews that George and I did over a two-year period for the Paranormal Pendulum, Dowsing the Deceased book.
And after that book, I said, God, we have tons of information here that people will be fascinated to learn about.
So the second book basically is a compilation of information about what the spirits told us about what it's like over there, what it's like crossing over, what passing is like.
Is there a white light?
Do you meet friends over there?
What is reincarnation?
Is reincarnation real?
All sorts of things.
So we got a lot of information about that in researching the second book.
But the big conundrum about all of it is, isn't it, how you can have an existence in two places.
How you can be over there, but also over here.
I can't explain it, but that's just the way it is.
Or at least that is what these spirits are telling us.
Basically, the life experience is much larger and much more expansive than ever we imagined.
Well, I find that good news.
Well, I think it's very good news, but I'm not expecting you to have a definitive answer to this, George.
But, you know, most people don't recall this, do they?
You know, most people, if this is what is happening, they're not aware that it is.
Correct.
There does seem to be the human existence.
Part of the price of that experience is erasing long-term memory so you can focus strictly on the here and now lifetime and not have to carry about memories or reflections of previous existences.
That does seem to be characteristic.
And we have to say that Lindsay wasn't recalling those people who you discovered.
She wasn't consciously recalling those.
It's in fact the investigations that brought this to light.
Exactly.
Well, I mean, that's a very, very unusual story.
I mean, it is an astonishing story.
Were there any instances where those who have passed over, W.D. and Sally, the family, had anything to say to or to pass on to the family in this generation, to Lindsay?
Let me address that.
Dan and I were at the Spring Street Museum, which is Shreveport's Historical Museum.
We were doing a pendulum session with two individuals who built the building way back when and apparently like being around the building.
People have talked about having their presence felt for many, many years.
And we were conversing with one of the brothers, and he lived in the same timeframe that W.D. Woodworth did.
And he was acquainted with W.D. and W.D.'s wife.
And Dan and I had a suspicion that Lindsay may have been W.D.'s wife in that previous incarnation.
So we were asking the friend to describe W.D.'s wife, dark hair, light hair.
We was trying to get information that we could present to Lindsay just to see if any of it rang a bell, so to speak.
And that evening after the session, Dan and I were playing back the recorder.
We record all sessions.
And in that section, all of a sudden, out of nowhere is a very prominent male voice speaking very clearly.
Lindsay is key.
It's an EVP.
It just saw these things suddenly appear.
Electronic voice phenomenon recording.
Right, you're right.
And we played that thing back at least half a dozen times.
It was so clear, so precise, so out of left field, so to speak.
But there it was.
And when Dan was back in Arizona several weeks later making the transcripts from that session, the EVP Was not present.
Hold on.
You mean what?
It was erased.
It was not on the recorder.
How can that be?
Because you'd heard it.
Well, yeah, that's the question.
So we had a session with W.D., and he confessed to, yes, he did say that.
And yes, he did remove it.
And part of that, I think, was a demonstration of what they can do on that side.
We know that they can physically lift physical objects like a second-story window.
And now we know they can work with digital electronics to create EVPs or okay.
So it kind of sounds to me like they wanted to give you that piece of evidence.
They wanted you to know about it, but they didn't want anybody else to.
They wanted it for your proof.
It's also very much in W.D.'s character.
He was quite a character.
In fact, he kept showing up.
I think W.D. kind of took a liking to George and I, or either he enjoyed messing with George and me.
But he was a character.
He came over from Ireland, fought for the Union in the Civil War.
He was a Navy man.
Then he joined the Army.
He fought out in the West in the Indian Wars before coming back to Shreport.
And he's one of these types that he married.
And you see this every once in a while, but there'll be newspaper or little ads in the newspaper.
I am no longer responsible for my husband's drinking.
His wife would take out little ads about like that.
So he was quite a rounder.
Sounds like it.
Removing the EVP, I think, very much is in his character with playing with me and George.
Now, let's bring this factor back into it then.
Let's not lose the abduction aspect of this because you said a very important thing, both of you said a very important thing, that not only was Lindsay the recipient of that treatment, but also those who went before W.D. and Co., were also the recipient of that treatment.
Now, in the era that they lived, there wasn't a lot of awareness of these things.
So how would they know that?
That's just what we're being told now.
So they're aware of it where they are now.
Yes.
Now, this is interesting for another reason, isn't it?
Because we know in familial lines, in families, contact abduction claims, those sorts of things, you know, they run in families.
You quite often see that, that a child or maybe a brother and sister, maybe it runs through the family.
For it to run beyond the grave, I think is pretty unique, isn't it?
Well, it certainly got our attention, but it fit with the way this whole investigation unfolded.
There's a lot of consistency to it.
There's not a whole lot of stuff that's accidental.
And Dan alluded to Kate Bateman, the spirit of Kate Bateman, earlier, and I think that was the reason why there were really no accidents in this whole process.
remind us who kate bateman is was Let me just start with how Kate introduced herself.
In the early days of this investigation, I had a tendency to get up right around dawn and take a three-mile walk, kind of get the day going.
Part of that walk is down at Mike Woods Park in Bosier City, which is adjacent to the runway at Barksdale Air Force Base.
And one frosty morning, the baseball field was just all shiny with frost.
And I said, oh, that's pretty.
So I took a picture of it, posted it on Facebook as seen on this morning stroll, got a number of responses from folks.
Oh, George, what a beautiful picture.
But what's with the blue tennis ball?
And I said, what?
I went and looked at the picture again, and I had not even noticed it.
But hovering above the baseball field is a dark blue sphere.
And I said, whoa, well, that's got to be a lens flare or something like that.
It's either a lens flare or some kind of orb.
Yeah, yeah.
And I rode it off as a lens flare.
But then the next several times I took the morning walk around the same time.
I decided to stop at the same spot, reframe the camera, and recreate that photograph and see what would happen.
And what started occurring was not in every photograph, but in most of the photographs, there would be an orb.
I do not see it with my eyes, but the camera, the iPhone camera, would photograph it.
And this became eerily consistent.
So I sent all these pictures out to Dan and said, Dan, get your pendulum.
See if you can make sense of this.
And he spent some time with it.
And what he came up with is the orb is a spirit.
It's a spirit known to me, but not in this lifetime.
And I said, oh, okay.
I really haven't done any research into my previous incarnation.
So I had an idea to look for 19th century American actresses.
So I started internet searching 19th century actresses.
And Kate Bateman kept popping up.
That's a big theatrical family.
She was born in Baltimore in 1841.
They traveled all around the country.
I know that she was in New Orleans in December of 1860 performing Juliet in Romeo and Juliet at the St. Charles Theater.
And sent it back to Dan.
Do you get the impression that Kate Bateman is this orb?
And he came up with a yes.
And I brought that to a special session with one of our mediums, specifically if she would get any impressions from Kate.
And oh boy, we got a whole lot of information from Kate, including a fabulous description of her life experience at that time.
And as it turns out, Kate was kind of the stage manager for this whole investigation.
In fact, we've got a chapter in the book called The Stage Manager, just kind of recounting what she was able to do.
I have no doubt she put the idea into Lindsay's mind, now's the time to come out with this.
She made sure that Lindsay listened to that specific podcast to get that specific information about the Los Angeles company.
Had the information to call Joe Beth to see if there's anybody else in the area who has information, and therefore that led to me.
And then, with mine and Dan's work on the previous book, well, naturally, let's get in, let's meet with Lindsay and her husband, and let's see if we can use the pendulum as a tool to find out what on earth is going on.
So, you think that Kate Bateman was orchestrating all of this, this famous actor, actress was orchestrating all of this, wanted you to make certain connections, which you did.
Dan, did you ever ask Kate Bateman's spirit whether she knew Lindsey Higgins?
Never asked that question specifically.
There is an interesting aspect I need to add on to what George was saying.
I'm not a big believer in coincidence, but we started bumping into a lot of, coincidentally bumping into a lot of people who are interested in this story.
For example, George is very good friends with a very intelligent PhD, a good friend of his.
He was discussing what was going on.
She said, well, I'm interested in that.
So she was invited to come along and sit in on some of our sessions.
George had met an evidential medium and discussing what was going on.
I said, oh, well, I'm interested in that.
Well, you know, come along.
We'll have some sessions together.
On my end, I was being interviewed about one of the books by a friend of mine, Dave Macmillan, from Shreveport, who I'd known since the 70s.
And we're talking about one of my books on the air.
And later on, he mentioned, you know, by the way, Dan, I'm a pendulum dowser.
Oh, and my wife is a medium.
So, you know, would you guys like to sit in on some of the sessions George and I are doing on this new story we're working on about Lindsey Hickens?
So all of a sudden, a bunch of people with very specific skills and traits and personality traits were brought together in one place at one time to work on one specific case.
And I firmly believe that was Kate Bateman at work pulling the strings behind the scenes.
Because people the right place.
Dan, it is such a complicated story.
I think you would have to have somebody pulling the strings and orchestrating it from somewhere.
Otherwise, you would never have made the connections, I don't think.
I've got a note here.
I don't know where this fits.
But there was some involvement of men in black, you know, those who both sides of the Atlantic.
We have them.
I mean, I even have a possible encounter of my own when I did a show about, I think it was, was it a show?
I'll tell you what, it was a show with the former Defense Minister of Canada, the guy who made a lot of UFO revelations.
Yeah, exactly.
And I remember that distinctly.
Sadly, he died and left us.
I'm trying to recall his name now, which is embarrassing.
I remember who you're talking about.
But I will get his name online here.
But I'd done this show.
And a week or so later, I was coming out of the building that I was working in, and there were a couple of guys.
And this was a completely empty area of London.
You know, very late at night.
It's a business area and no one around at that time of day.
And there was what you would call a jaguar, a jaguar car opposite, black.
And there was a camera on the dashboard of this thing following myself and my producer down the street.
And these guys were dressed in black jacket, white shirt, black tie.
They were the archetypal men in black.
And I swear that story is true.
So, you know, I have a certain amount of time for tales of men in black.
But there's a men in black.
I'm sorry for, you know, going into all that detail about that story.
But there's a men in black connection here, you say.
Let me intro George and let him finish it out.
But our experience with the Lindsay Higgins case only was that there were definitely men in black involved.
In her case, they weren't menacing.
They were more or less keeping an eye on things.
George has more details on that, but I wanted to make that point.
Paul Hellier, of course, was the former Defense Minister of Canada.
You were going to take it over, George.
What Lindsay was describing is not long after the Netflix series aired, which was in October of 2018, her office at the institution where she works, there's a direct line, a telephone line to her office with a specific number that nobody knows and that phone is never used.
Anybody trying to contact Lindsay will go through the institution's switchboard and then they'll route the call to Lindsay's other phone.
Well, Lindsay was in her office one day and the direct line phone rang.
That was kind of unusual.
And she picked up the receiver and said, hello.
And then a very gruff male voice said, where's Tim?
I need to speak to Tim.
Tim's not here.
Can I take a message?
No, Click.
And that was kind of jarring for her.
Then a couple of weeks later, her husband Tim was in her office.
He brought lunch, and they were having lunch in her office, and the same phone rings again.
She picks it up.
Hello?
I need to speak to Tim.
Just a minute.
Who's calling?
It don't matter, Click.
Just, it was so out of kilter.
And was she already getting publicity at that point?
Was she a known figure?
This is after the Netflix series had been aired.
Right, so that could have been a crank, couldn't it?
No, nobody would know that telephone number.
No, no, exactly.
I mean, that's the one thing that doesn't add up.
It was a phone number that it would have been very hard to get.
Even Tim, her husband, doesn't know the number.
It's just not used.
You think that whatever the men in black may be, whatever agency they may work out of, and whoever they may, or whatever they may work in collaboration with, wanted her to know that they were watching this case.
Yes, and there was another time where there was a dark vehicle that was just parked across the street from their house.
And there's nothing across the street from their house other than the beginnings of a parking lot for a very popular restaurant.
And the car just sat there.
I believe Lindsay said there were people in it, but they didn't come out or do anything.
So that was a little curious.
And then her husband, Tim, at the time, was working in retail and was closing up the store one night.
And as he was walking out to his truck in the parking lot, another, I think it was a black pickup truck pulled up and blocked his car from moving, if you will.
Couldn't maneuver around the car.
So Tim kind of went back inside the store with some of the others, and they just watched.
And eventually the intruding truck drove off and Tim went home.
And Tim just recalled that there was something really suspicious about it.
He just had a feeling that there was something really, really suspicious about that.
And he was surprised to have that kind of feeling.
Well, from personal experience, I can quite understand that feeling.
So we addressed it briefly at one of the sessions.
And like Dan mentioned, we picked up no malice whatsoever that they wanted Lindsay to know that they're aware of it, but they're not interfering with anything.
And we kind of got a little whiff that actually they may be in more of a protective role.
Didn't go down that rabbit hole very far.
But so there's a whiff of men of black in the Lindsey Higgins story.
Well, there seems to be.
Does Lindsay believe that she is playing some kind of role here?
What I mean is, I don't mean that in a dramatic sense, George, but I mean in terms of getting information about this kind of stuff out there.
And perhaps as we move towards, some say we move towards disclosure, that she might have some kind of role in that?
I very definitely think this book is a part of that.
And Lindsay's, now that she made the decision to tell her story, she's very open about it, very articulate, and invites communications from people around the country who've had similar experiences, and she gets them.
George or Dan, you said that these experiences were ongoing.
To the best of your knowledge, when was the last time she had contact with something that was taking her away and perhaps doing experiments on her or whatever they do?
Was it recent, as far as you know?
It'd been on the first of this year, as I recall, that she alerted me that she had some red markings on her forearm that indicated that there would have been a visitation the previous night.
And we did a quick pendulum check.
And yes, there was a visitation.
It was not a physical thing.
That is, she wasn't removed from her home, but whatever they were doing, they were able to do in the house.
Tim, of course, is made oblivious to anything that's going on.
But they do leave the little marks as kind of a calling card that, yes, we were here.
And Lindsay describes no discomfort.
Why doesn't Lindsay put herself up, and perhaps you both can be a part of this as well, for scientific evaluation?
Why hasn't she done that?
How would you scientifically investigate it?
That's the question.
Well, I suppose she'd have to be put in controlled conditions and the experiences that she has, maybe dreams, the state of her brain during her dreams would be monitored.
Perhaps she'd be asked to recall her dreams.
Perhaps in some circumstances, I was thinking, even though it's controversial and not everybody buys into it, hypnotic regression.
Let me jump in.
I would say, why bother?
Her message is for the people out there, average Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Joe Average out there.
That's who her message is for.
And I totally get that, Dan.
But if she did have some kind of, I mean, you'd have to get a sympathetic scientist or two, somebody who was willing to have an open mind about it.
But if that kind of stuff was doable, then you would have the greatest story ever told, wouldn't you?
My opinion is why bother?
I mean, you know, the story is out there for people to believe or for them to not believe.
I don't see any need to get the scientific community involved whatsoever.
Well, you can set up all sorts of controls and measurements, and if the other, and if the ETs aren't going to play, they're not going to play.
So, you know.
No, well, that's true.
We've seen that before.
The character, the presence that Lindsay knew and has known as Morlock, does Morlock continue to make his presence felt with her?
We don't think so.
We think that was more of a temporary thing when she was very young because it turned out that Morlock was the spirit of the president of a railroad who worked in that station back in the late 40s and early 50s.
Her father loved trains, so he was down there frequently as a child, and he knew of this railroad man, Pete Couch was his name.
And he just had a hunch that the spirit of Morlock was Pete Couch because her description of the spirit was a description of Pete Couch when he was alive.
Interesting.
You said that, yeah.
No, he's a cigar smoker.
I just thought I'd point that out.
Yeah, you know, as we said at the beginning, there was that the two and a half year old couldn't describe the smell of cigar smoke at that time.
Yeah, during our sessions at the train station, we had multiple sessions with different crowds of people.
But every once in a while, one of the, depending on who was there and whatever, but somebody was, hey, is somebody smoking a cigar downstairs?
I smell a cigar smoke.
Of course, nobody was smoking a cigar at all.
You know, I'm inclined to agree with you, the statement that you made a little while ago, that there is nothing random, there is nothing coincidental, really.
Everything happens for a reason.
I think that's so.
And, you know, there's some kind of force that guides an awful lot of stuff that we perhaps don't quite understand, but it's there.
Now, you know, we've got loads of threads here now, haven't we?
Both of you, loads of threads at the end of this to be tying up.
Lindsay today, does she live a normal workerday life?
Has she got kids?
What's going on with Lindsay?
She has no children.
She has a wonderful marriage.
She has a perfectly stable, Wonderful job that she has.
She's a very social person.
So, yeah, Lindsay's having a very good life.
She just got this other element that's a part of it that certainly gives her a broader view of the life experience.
Lindsay has a history of some psychic talent.
We learned a little bit more about that as part of the investigation.
But, you know, Lindsay's, Lindsay, you'd enjoy meeting Lindsay.
I think we're going to have to get that together.
And just quickly, George, and I'll bring you back in, Dan.
But you said psychic talent.
Do you mean that she has precognition or something?
She, at times, can get impressions of things.
Part of her experience with growing up in all of these ET types as she was a young child, but she would also be able to see and describe what we would call spirits that were not what we would call ETs.
And it turns out that she was seeing on the property where she was raised the spirits of Caddo Indians, Native Americans who lived in that area hundreds of years ago.
And we were able to actually go to the property and one of the mediums came with us and she was able to see that there were six spirits there, Native American spirits.
They weren't distressed.
They weren't attached or chained to the property.
They just wanted to keep an eye on it because it was very important to their people back in the day.
And you want to pick it up there, Dan, about their crossing over?
No, the Indians there were, they weren't trapped.
They weren't trapped spirits.
They were there voluntarily.
They could cross over anytime they wanted to, but they were very much, had a very strong feeling of responsibility for the land.
And so when we met them out there with Lindsay and her dad and a few other people, our medium and our other dowsers, and we were actually having a conversation with the Native Americans.
Sometimes people who've been through abduction experiences say that they come back.
Well, two things really to say here.
Say that they come back different, and you talked about Lindsay's psychic abilities, and some people do claim that they come back with enhanced perception from those things.
But the other thing they come back with sometimes is a message for the world.
In other words, you're ruining your planet.
It's time for you to get your act together or you've got to go live on Mars or whatever it might be.
Thinking about those two things, coming back as a changed person, we've partly answered that.
But also the idea that there might be a message for the world in all of this.
What do you have to say about that, Dan?
One of the big changes in her life are really there's a vast area that was circled around confusion and a lot of fear.
And that part of her existence has turned around to, now it circles around a mission, more or less.
She's turned that confusion and fear into a purpose in her life.
And that purpose, the message she brought back, if you will, was to tell other people, this is going on all over the world with people all over the world, throughout the world, all the time.
It's okay for you to step up and say, this is what's going on in my world.
This is what's happening to me.
And to let people know you're not alone.
There are people out there who want to hear your stories.
So please step out and tell us your story.
Of course, one of those people is the niece of Betty and Barney Hill, Kathleen Marden, who I know pretty well.
I'm sure you do too.
There are other people who do what Kathleen does to help people who've been through these things.
Is Lindsay in touch with Kathleen or anybody like that?
Not that I'm aware.
Okay.
So, I mean, I think you've done incredibly well in different physical locations.
The three of us can't see each other.
I think to conduct a three-way conversation on such a complicated subject, I think you need to give yourselves a great big pat on the back.
What do we do with this story now, gentlemen?
George, what do we do with this story?
Where do we take it?
What happens next?
Well, Dan and I are presently researching what will become Paranormal Pendulum Book 4.
So we'll see where that leads.
And Dan, you know, you're the pendulum guy.
What are you going to have in there?
Well, we're not giving too much away.
Well, I can't give away too much because we don't know where it's going.
We're in the early stages of research, but we're trying to find information on the connection between the Native Americans and what they call the sky people.
You know, the visitors from outer space or from another dimension who came down and had contact with the Native Americans.
And the interesting aspect is George is over in Louisiana in the heart of the old mound builder culture, the high culture.
I'm 1,250 miles away in Arizona in the cultures of the cliff dwellers.
And it's going to be real interesting to compare the differences, if there are any differences or the coincidences between the two different cultures and their contact with the sky people.
And indeed, to work out more broadly whether there are commonalities, similarities with accounts that we hear from places like ancient Egypt.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, so far, again, we're in the early stages of our research, but so far it's getting real interesting.
Let me put it that way.
Well, listen, it's a hell of a story, and if it's possible, if you think that I'm worthy of it, I would be interested in talking with Lindsay.
But I've thoroughly enjoyed talking with you both.
George, just remind my listener of the title of the book.
Paranormal Pendulum 3, Roman numeral 3.
Standby for number 4.
Dan, thank you very much.
And George, thank you very much indeed.
Loved it.
It was great.
Well, that's a complex one.
What do you make of that?
The astonishing story of Lindsay Higgins, as discussed with George Sewell and Dan Baldwin.
My thanks to them.
And I wish them every success with their work on this, the book that they've written about it.
And also, of course, Dan Baldwin's work with dowsing, which always continues to fascinate me.
personally, I think that there is definitely something in that.
But what do I know, as they say?
My opinion is not important anyway.
It's your opinion that counts, as a great man on TV here used to say once.
Okay, more great guests in the pipeline here at the home of the Unexplained Online.
Till next we meet.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online, and please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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