All Episodes
Previous Next
Jan. 22, 2022 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:10:23
Edition 607 - Darcy Weir - "Our UFOs"

Darcy Weir on his excellent new documentary "Secret Space - UFOS and the Rise of the TR3B" - You'll hear amazing stories from Jim Goodall - who knows Bob Lazar (Area 51) - and has deeply researched the topic of whether some of what we think are UFOs or UAPs are actually made and engineered here on Earth...

| Copy link to current segment

Time Text
Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
I hope that life is good for and to you.
I've had some really, really nice emails lately, some absolutely fab ones that I've replied to.
Just people who have been listening to the show, have discovered the show recently.
It's just a big, big international family now.
And it makes me feel really humble.
Sometimes I look at the emails as they come in every day and I think, is this real?
Am I really reaching out to so many people?
You know, I know that I can be a whole lot better at what I do.
And that's the great thing about this life that I'm leading as I go along.
You know, you learn stuff.
Every day you learn stuff.
So hopefully, if I'm still here in another 10 years of doing The Unexplained, you know, it'll be even better.
And I've learned even more.
But it's just so nice and gratifying to get those emails every day.
If you want to get in touch with me, please use the website theunexplained.tv.
Follow the link and you can send me an email through and from there.
And thank you for being part of my journey here.
If I'm sounding a little slower than usual, I'm still drinking the black coffee here.
It's only because I had like three hours sleep last night.
I finished the radio show.
A lot of stuff on my mind after that.
And I then look at the clock and it's four o'clock.
And the next thing I do fall asleep.
And then the next thing the birds are waking me up, even though it's winter time and it's seven o'clock.
So it's evening time as I'm recording this now.
So I'm kind of slapping myself across the face to do this.
I want to get straight into this.
Darcy Weir, documentary filmmaker, investigator who's been on this show a number of times, has made a new film, a new documentary.
It's called Secret Space UFOs, The Rise of the TR-3B.
It's a great documentary.
I watched it today, greatly enjoyed it.
There's a lot of material there that doesn't get talked about a lot.
But the central premise of the whole thing is this.
If there is technology out there that's being identified as UFOs, how much of the UFOs or UAPs actually emanate from here?
How many of those things are ours?
It's a fascinating question.
Doesn't get asked nearly enough.
This documentary explores that and the possible connections between us down here and our secret projects for craft that can do remarkable things and possible ETs in various species.
I'm not going to say any more about it.
I'm going to talk to both Darcy and James Goodall, who's in the documentary here.
So the way I'm going to play this now, I'm going to let you hear the conversation exactly as it runs.
So, you know, as I'm recording these words, I've already recorded the conversation.
So it's slightly a reversed method of doing this.
So we're about to hear those two talking about this.
Like I say, the documentary is called Secret Space UFOs, The Rise of the TR-3B.
And if you've ever sat there and you thought to yourself, well, I wonder if we've got that technology.
And if we have, how much of what is seen in the skies, triangular objects or things that move at enormous pace, how much of that is maybe ultra-uber secret stuff that we've developed?
Now, where we got the original germ and spark of the technology from is another issue.
All of that is explored in the documentary.
So, conversation about that documentary and that research with Darcy Weir, the man behind it, and a man who's a very central part of it, James Goodall.
This is that conversation.
I hope you enjoy it.
Super happy to be here.
And I'm delighted.
I've heard about you.
I haven't heard your program in the past because it's done in the UK primarily.
I'm delighted to be here.
Well, we reach the world in our own ways.
Darcy knows about all of this.
All right.
Let's start with you, Vent, Darcy, if I may.
What is it that made you want to make this one?
Well, you know, I had just come off the back of making Secret Space UFOs part one, which really focused on the early Apollo program,
Gemini, Mercury program, like the first endeavors for NASA to send astronauts into space and all of the UFO encounters that were happening during those times.
And I actually reached out to Jim at that time, sent him a copy of that film, and he wrote back to me and said, yeah, this is very good, gave me some pointers, you know, told me about some of the rockets we use the footage for.
And I was like, okay, this guy's very intelligent and knows his stuff.
We have to say that, you know, we've got to be saying these things because he's listening right now, but it's nonetheless absolutely true.
Jim, let me bring you in here because you are credited in the documentary as the person who blew the lid off Area 51.
How did you do that?
I've been snooping on our government since the 70s.
I was doing it before the internet.
I've been out to the fence line at either Area 51 or Tonopot Test Range well over 80 individual days in the last 40 years.
And I used to go out there about every six weeks.
John Lehrer and I were the first two people to climb to top of Whitesides overlooking Area 51.
They eventually took that vantage point away.
And then we, you know, I also helped Glenn Campbell, not the singer, but the Area 51 research guy.
I helped him in creating a path to Freedom Ridge, which is a hill, if you want to call it, that overlooks Area 51.
I mean, you're like 10 miles from the main part of the base.
And as we were driving our four-wheel drive vehicles up the side of this hill, I was walking ahead, making sure there weren't anything that caused an empty oil pan or a flat tire.
And as we're getting up, we were monitoring the radio calls there from the security people at area 51 and they said you could hear them talking oh my god oh my oh my god it's gonna be like a friggin air you know drive-in theater up there and sure as you and on one particular day we had 10 cars up there it was a it was a cold day and no one was no one was outside everybody was in their car with their engines running and the heater going did you feel at any when you did that jim
Did you feel at any risk because we hear stories of people getting close to Area 51 and being less than politely warned away?
I mean, there are some very serious security guards there.
But what you have to take in consideration, and I didn't realize this until just a couple of years ago or maybe a decade ago, the security forces within Area 51, and that includes the military and that includes the contacts, contract security, either Wackenhut, Advanced Security, Inc., and there's a few others.
They do not have any jurisdiction outside of the restricted area.
So they can intimidate you.
I mean, I was on the fence line at Tonopah Test Range in 1996, June of 1996, with John Lear.
I had heard, you know, we had heard that Tonopah Test Range or TTR had gone into caretaker status.
I also heard that they put a third perimeter around the flight line, and they installed the most advanced fiber optics communication systems in the Department of Defense.
So we're out there about 11 o'clock at night.
We have night vision goggles.
We have our lawn chairs because you don't want to sit on the ground because scorpions and stuff like that.
And we see three armored personnel carriers with their lights off, one coming from the south, one coming from the west, one coming from the east, heading towards us.
And there was also a pickup truck coming down on the public land side of the fence.
And I stand up and yell real loud, hey, we're good guys.
We're taxpayers.
And all of a sudden we had floodlights on us and three little red dots bouncing on our chest.
And about that time, a security guy, he was in desert camo.
His rank was captain.
He has his hand on his guy and he said, you're in a restricted area.
I'm ordering you to leave.
And I said, sir, I don't know who you are, but this is public lands.
And I can be here for 15 consecutive days and nights without your permission.
And was he satisfied with that explanation?
Oh, no, no.
He was very irritated.
So he said, I'm ordering you to leave.
And I said, this is a restricted area.
He said that again.
So I pulled out the aeronautical map printed by the United States government.
So it's got to be true.
And I turned the flashlight on the map and he said, this gives the longitude and latitude of the restricted area.
And if you look at the fence, the USGS medallion, US Coastal Geodetic Survey medallion on the base of the fence post that my buddy has his feet up on, you'll see that that gives the longitude and latitude to the second.
And we're in public lands.
And I'm not going anywhere.
I want to see some I want to see some I. I said, well, who are you?
Well, I'm Captain so and so with ASI, which stands Advanced Security Inc.
I said, you're a rent-a-cop.
You don't have jurisdiction on this side of the fence.
And boy, he got bent out of shape on that comment.
And you can see his veins popping on his forehead and his neck.
He said, I've been deputized by Nye, Lincoln, Esmerilla County to uphold the laws of the state of Nevada and the federal government.
I said, well, good for you.
And boy, he's almost, and I'm sarcastic and I always have been.
And so I said, tell you what, you show me yours, I'll show you mine.
So he hands me his ASI badge.
And I said, sir, I need a valid form of ID.
This is not.
I need something issued by the state or federal government.
And he's getting more irritated by the seconds.
So he hands me his Nevada driver's license.
And I don't have my reading glasses on.
I looked down and said, okay.
So I lived in Minnesota at the time.
And I handed him my driver's license.
John handed him his.
He handed him to a person on the south side of the fence.
And took him over to the supervisor, who was one of the armored personnel carriers.
He turns his light on.
Now, I don't know.
I don't know if I can swear or not.
It's not a terrible word, but you can bleep it out.
Try me.
Okay.
That supervisor turns the light on and I hear him.
And I'm real hard of hearing.
And he says, oh, shit, it's good all in layer.
And the red dots went away.
The floodlights went away.
And they dispersed.
So you're well known to them.
You're almost friends to them.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
No, no.
Okay.
Before I get back to Darcy.
And Darcy will be wondering why we've had this long conversation right now up front about Area 51.
But I think it's important.
No, not at all.
That we kind of establish Jim's credentials here.
And I think we've just done that.
Jim, you're ex-USAF, aren't you?
That's part of the interest.
My last 16 years in the military, I was a historian.
And that's what my books are.
I'm working on my 29th book.
And I do historical monographs.
Okay.
And I wanted to be a history teacher when I was young and stupid.
And I knew if I'd become a teacher, I'd end up in prison for murder.
Okay.
Well, I think you probably made the right career choice then.
Oh, I think so, too.
look you you know you've been up close and personal with area 51 from everything that I get to hear and see and read even if they take aerial photographs of it you know even if they do artists' impressions of it there's nothing much there to see you don't see aliens Walking around.
You don't see flying saucers.
You don't see back engineered technology.
So, what is the point?
Well, you know, Bob Lazar is the single individual who really did bring the word Area 51 to the public.
He blew the lid on that whole story with George Knapp.
And interestingly enough, in this documentary, Secret Space UFOs, Rise of the TR-3B, we're covering some of those claims because we want to bring the story back to Area 51 where they were possibly testing UFO-type technology or even possibly test flying off-world craft UFOs.
And Jim Goodall is a great historian.
He is an aviation historian.
You know, he's written 29 books and counting on the aviation history of many different aspects of it.
And he, you know, calls himself a spooky airplane researcher.
So he knows about the stuff that they're keeping under wraps out there.
And I definitely had to include him in this documentary because I wanted to cover that aspect, the man-made aspect, and sort of compare and contrast that to the allegations and reports that we may have crash craft.
We may have also off-world alien craft technology.
And to a great extent, as we will explore, a lot of these things tie together.
Okay, we're beginning to refine it down now.
I think it's terribly important.
I've got to say that I greatly enjoyed the documentary.
I've just seen it.
I think it's terribly important that you're talking about this because the discussion today, and certainly post-Tic-Tac UFOs, and in the modern era where we've got this new group formed in Washington that's supposedly going to be the new ATIP, if it is, it's important to be able to continue to put the point that whatever may be seen in the skies is not necessarily ET.
It may be ours.
And this all comes back to a conversation that I wanted to mention here, and I've got to make sure that I erase and redact the names here.
But I know a person who has a relative who works in the aviation industry.
And, you know, she kind of knows that I do this, and mentioned to him about the interest in UFOs and, you know, whether they were off-world and how could they be from this world because of the speed and maneuverability and all the other things that we know about Darcy.
And the answer that she was given was one of the most intriguing ones of all.
And he looked at her, the story goes, and said, how do you know that they're from somewhere else?
That's the whole point of this documentary, to unearth, or not necessarily unearth, but to shed a little bit of light, shed some clear light of day on the possibility that people need to think of that we may well have overlapping technology with aliens if they exist.
Yeah?
Yeah.
Yeah, to put it simply, we have embarked on innovation that is leaps and miles ahead of our commercial aviation industry.
So starting even as early as the 1940s, we were using incredibly powerful jet engine planes that evolved to things like the Blackbird, the A-12 spy plane that was specifically made for CIA to spy on foreign adversaries back in 1968.
That's supposedly on record still the fastest plane in our skies.
But I beg to differ on that fact.
I think that we just don't know about the stuff that's really out there that's still super, super heavily classified.
And I think Jim can speak to that a lot more.
All right, Jim, one of the things that came out of this documentary, to which you are a very sizable contributor, is the notion, the truth, that the U.S. and probably other governments too had staggering technology in the 40s and the 50s.
I was not really aware of the extent of it, but one of the quotes in the documentary is that there was aviation technology produced that could do a flight that would normally take 12 hours in five.
So the level of sophistication of the stuff that we were doing as black ops projects, and stuff that wasn't talked about in the public domain, was pretty substantial even in the 40s and certainly the 1950s, yes?
Absolutely.
I mean, when they started developing the Blackbird, it had only been 15 years since Chuck Yeager had gone Mach 1 in a rocket-powered airplane.
And Kelly Johnson and his team at the Skunk Works was tasked to build a manned air-breathing aircraft that would be flying three and a half times faster than Chuck Yeager and be able to do it day in and day out.
And that's, you know, they created what became Oxcart, also known as the A-12 or Archangel is another word for it.
When we're talking about things that go bump in the night, I don't know how I managed to acquire this friendship, but Ben Rich, the former president of Lockheed Skunk Works, we became sort of like pen pals, but it was more or less phone calls, not necessarily letters.
And indeed, it comes out in the documentary that I'm sorry to jump in here, but he confided in you some stuff that we will get to.
Let's just explain for my UK listener who may not, who may have heard or read the phrase, Lockheed Skunk Works, but let's just clarify what that is.
Yeah, the Lockheed Skunk Works is a division of Lockheed, now Lockheed Martin.
And it was created in 1943 to develop the first jet fighter during World War II.
And they, in a less than less than 18 months from signing a contract to first flight, they developed the P-80 shooting star, which turned out to be the only operational jet.
It was only operational for about a month and a half before the war in Europe ended.
But that created an environment where something could be built and designed in absolute total secrecy.
And the next project after the P-80 of any significance was the F-104 Starfighter and then the requirements for access to the former Soviet Union.
And that group developed the U-2, which is a jet-powered glider, which is ironic.
It was developed in the mid-1950s.
And today the U-2 is still flying and nothing can replace it.
It flies high.
It has a lot of endurance and can carry 4,000 pounds or two tons of spying gear, whether it's electronic easing, eavesdropping or photographically.
And indeed, they were remarkably successful.
I think I might be wrong in the history.
You can tell me, Jim.
I think in the history of espionage and surveillance of the Soviet Union, I think there was one that was shot down and one pilot captured.
I think that was it, wasn't it?
That person was Francis Gary Powers on May 1st, 1960.
I know his son.
I worked with his daughter in my military unit.
She was a recruiter.
And I know his mom.
I mean, it's, but Powers was, some people think that Powers was allowed to be shot down because the people who controlled the first strings in Congress, the few people that knew about the Blackbird program, the Oxcart program, this is $2 billion in 1960, which was a lot of money back then.
And they just, you know, in order, they were saying, why should we spend all this money to replace a platform that is impervious to Soviet air defenses?
Well, one way to change that narrative is to have the U-2 shot down over Soviet territory.
And one of the things that Gary Powers said after he was shot down, he said, what scared him the most was not getting hit with the overpressure from a Sam because he actually got damaged and shot down below 35,000 feet.
He had to go down there to restart his engine.
He had a flame out.
He said, the scariest part of the whole event is when he landed in this field, some old Russian farmer thought he was an alien and threatened to run him through with his pitchfork.
Because the technology was so advanced.
But isn't it interesting that there's that conspiracy theory that this was allowed to happen in order to pile the pressure on to get something better?
Okay, that brings us back to the point then, both Jim and Darcy, that America's technology, there was the stuff that we saw and was celebrated on television in the newsreels wherever, and read about in the newspapers, and the stuff that we didn't see that was being developed on the quiet, which brings us to space technology.
Now, in the documentary, Darcy, you have Richard Doland, who I've interviewed many times and is well-known in this entire field.
And he makes the point, and I think it's great that here we are having a discussion about this, because a lot of these programs and documentaries just kind of skate over this.
There are two strands to it all.
There's the conventional stuff that is nevertheless secret and big bucks.
And then there's the stuff that we're principally interested in here.
There's the unconventional stuff.
And there's a discussion in the documentary of where that might come from and what that is capable of.
Talk to me about the unconventional stuff.
So the unconventional stuff would be the TR-3B.
You know, the famous story of the TR-3B comes from a popular mechanics article that was published back in the 90s about the TR-3A, which was the Northrop Grumman's tactical reconnaissance and targeting system for apparently some smart missile strikes in the Gulf
War.
And this would have been a triangular type craft.
They have illustrations of it and such.
And it apparently was built.
And it had a laser targeting system that aided the, I think it was the F-117 fighter to drop certain smart bombs and such.
But that craft was run on traditional jet fuel.
And people started talking about the TR-3B because a gentleman named Edgar Fouché started doing lecture tour in the early 90s at places like UFO Congress and, you know, I don't think they had it back then, but, you know, something like Contact in the Desert.
And he was talking about how he worked at Area 51.
And when he was there, he did a, he rode on a test flight of a TR-3B.
And this apparently was a very large craft that was able to carry personnel and equipment into space.
Shocking, you know, really, but he had illustrations of how it worked.
He talked about the type of technologies it employed to function and work the way it did.
So one of the things he talked about was its ability To hover and take off with anti-gravity, an anti-gravity engine that was run on a rotating superconductor.
And he also said that it used metamaterials to mask its form and keep it hidden in the sky.
And these two things that are mentioned, metamaterials and the rotating superconductor engine to create anti-gravity, are both things that are now well published in the public domain.
So if you go online and you look up metamaterials, you can find all kinds of information about this stuff working in the public, and there's companies that are developing metamaterials.
But this was the very first admission of this in the public.
If it was something fake, it wouldn't surface like it has in recent years.
And this was the very first person to even mention them.
And your documentary says that metamaterials, where were they doing work on metamaterials?
Area 51.
Yeah, they were doing it at an area 51.
And some people allege that they're also doing it at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, that there's the Wright-Patterson Air Force Materials Research Department.
And many people throughout the years in the UFO research spectrum have been mentioning Wright-Patterson Air Force as a place where they even brought things like the Roswell, New Mexico crash materials to study them there too.
So it all kind of goes back to the same areas.
And, you know, if you talk about the rotating superconductor, which apparently was mercury-based for the TR-3B, NASA published an article about rotating superconductors working way back in the late 1950s.
There's a gentleman from Russia named Potlonoff who published his studies.
Ning Li, who was a famous Chinese physicist who proved with a physics paper that anti-gravity works and that you can build something that works that way.
She also died mysteriously.
All of these things are out there in the public forum.
And I was learning about them while I was watching this documentary being assembled and putting together this story.
And Darcy, some of the terms that are bandied about in this documentary are an alphabet spaghetti of amazing Star Trek-style stuff.
Some of the phrases I wrote down, super-ferrofluid, anti-gravity propulsion.
You talked about the circular rotating motor, mercury-based plasma, quasi-crystals, metamaterials, as you said.
And the metamaterials, again, I never really totally understood what metamaterials were all about.
You explain that.
There's so much stuff that you explain in here.
That metamaterials, that's basically special materials for special purposes, craft that can do unusual things, they were pioneered, as we said, at Area 51.
They depend not on the composition of the metal, but on the actual structure of the thing, of the actual shape of the thing, to give it strength and characteristics, which I find a fascinating aspect of this.
I know it's a bit of a sidebar to it, but there are so many little pinpoint details here that fit together quite beautifully in this thing.
Yeah, that's right.
I mean, fact is sometimes stranger than fiction, as they say.
And I think, you know, metamaterials, quasi-crystals, all this stuff that was not fully understood and was not even really talked about in mainstream science back in the 90s was brought up by Edgar Fouché.
Okay, so look, there was a TR-3A.
I don't want to lose this point.
There was a TR-3A that was a kind of sort of prototype, but very conventional in terms of its powering.
That was Northrop Grumman who produced that.
But the TR-3B was something completely different and wasn't made by them.
It could have been made by Skunk Works.
It could have been made by Northrop Grumman.
It could have been made by somebody completely else, you know, but the two probably main suspects would be Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Skunkworks, because they basically have the best technology, the best engineers in the world, and they have a track record of working on things like this.
So it's alleged, it's not proven, but you know, if you go to Ben Rich and you go to the conversations that these two gentlemen had, Jim and Ben, you can sort of take that leap of faith and realize, yeah, I'm sure they've got this stuff out there.
And the TR-3B is old hat at this point.
You know, that would have had its maiden flight in 1979 is what is the rumor.
And the triangles we see nowadays could be just, you know, drones that don't even need human personnel that stop on a dime and reverse direction and are flying around silent with no engines.
Like we show in the film a B-2 bomber flying overhead and the F-117.
You can hear those roaring through the sky like thunder and lightning.
You can't really hear a TR-3B or what these things are now that might have been a synthesis or a evolution, so to speak, in the black triangle, you know, technological breakthroughs that we've had since 1979.
So what this is saying, that we have had UFO-like technology For 43 years now.
I'm just doing the math from 1979.
Jim Goodall, let's get back to you.
You knew Ben Rich from Lockheed Starkworks, and you've talked about this extensively.
I've got a quote.
I'm sorry to just carry on with this, but the quote is that Ben apparently said to you, or confirmed to you, he said, We have the ability to take ET home.
You know, that's the quote of the entire documentary for me.
What did he mean?
I mean, he actually said that to a group of aerospace graduate engineers at UCLA shortly after he retired from the skunk works.
And what he said, we have the ability to take ET home, but our government will not allow that technology to be released to the knowledge of the general public.
But just before he died, he was at USC Medical Center.
He had esophagal cancer and he was not doing well.
And I called him at the hospital and we were talking about various things.
And he finally says, Jim, and this is directly from Ben Rich to me.
He said, Jim, we have things out in the desert.
And he wasn't referring to Area 51.
I don't know if he was referring to S4 or some other location.
But he said, we have things out in the desert that's 50 years beyond what you can comprehend.
And I can comprehend an awful lot.
And he says, not what you think you can build in 50 years, but what you can comprehend or imagine.
And then he said, if you've seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, or decided it wasn't worth the effort.
I said, Ben, you want to expand upon that?
And typical Ben, he said, no.
And then the dear man passed away about 10 days later.
So I was blessed to be on his list of favorite people.
What an astonishing person to know, Jim.
And look, did you get to ask him the question, where did we get this stuff?
Where's it come from?
Never got to that point, but I did ask the current Vice President General Manager of the Skunk Works, Jeff Babion, to his face.
I was at the Skunk Works on June 3rd of 21 for a book signing.
I did my 75 years of Lockheed Skunk Works book, and it's published by a British publication, Osprey.
And I had his ear for two and a half hours, and we were heading after this book signing, we were heading over to the U-2 operation at Site 2 there at Palmdale.
And we're in the back of his limousine as we're heading over there.
and I looked him straight in the eye and I said, okay, Jeff, he says, what is Lockheed and the Skunk Works involvement in alien or UFO technology?
I mean, I'm two feet from a Oh, that was.
And he said, I said, Jim, I said, and I believe this is an honest statement from him.
He says, I have, I've been here, what, two and a half years at the time I asked him the question.
And he says, I have absolutely no knowledge, nor have I been read into any program that uses alien technology.
It doesn't mean it hasn't been used, and it may be beyond my ability and my security clearance to even know about it.
But he said, I have no direct or indirect knowledge that Lockheed has any involvement in alien technology.
Well, now that's intriguing, isn't it?
We know why that's intriguing, because that could mean that it does exist and has existed, but it's above his pay grade, or could mean that perhaps Roswell gave us something we haven't had much else since then, but what we've been doing is working on it since then.
Or it may mean that there's nothing at all and we're just very clever.
Well, see, I'm also in the position where I knew Bob Lazar before he went to work out in the desert.
Was Bob Lazar of Area 51?
And Bob Lazar is S4 slash Area 51.
And I met him through John Lear.
And it was the day I photographed my first F-117.
The world hadn't seen one in person yet.
I did.
And it was quite an experience.
But I met Bob Lazar in early January of 89.
He was still interviewing out in the desert.
And should I want to go on how I met John?
I mean, Bob?
Yeah, very much so, because look, Bob Lazar is somebody who's very, very hard to pin down.
I've been trying to get him on my show for 10 years without success.
And I know a lot of the principals in all of this who know him, and I still can't get him.
So I'm intrigued by the fact that you're basically confirming Bob Lazar's story here.
Well, there's a couple tidbits that really nails it down.
But in early January, they announced the existence of the F-117 in November of 88.
November, I think it was either the 11th or the 22nd.
I should know it, but I don't have it on the tip of my tongue.
So in January, I was in Las Vegas, and every time I'm in Vegas, I'm usually with John Lear.
And John and I were heading up US-95 out of Las Vegas, heading towards the town of Tonopaw.
And we had just passed Scotty's Junction.
And what makes Scotty Junction an interesting place on the road, it's where one of the legal brothels are in the state of Nevada.
But the government took it over because of taxes, and they ran it in the ground.
It's out of business now.
But we were just north of Scotty's Junction, and an F-117 flew at about a 45-degree angle across the road at about 1,500 feet.
I almost crashed the car because that was the first vision of this super secret airplane.
So we got a quick bite to eat in Tonopah.
Then we got down a US 6.
You go down 14 miles.
There's a big, huge sign that says Tonopaw Test Range.
So we turned down that road.
You go down about 18 miles.
And then we drove along the fence line.
You're looking right down on the base, and it's huge.
And we were just sitting there, and I'm, you know, I wonder, are we going to see one today?
And I looked to the north, and there was a black dot with a white, small white light in it, and a white dot with another bright light, which was, it was a long final for an F-117 and a T-38 Talon chase plane.
And back then, this is before digital cameras, I had my Nikon film camera, and I have really good Nikon lenses.
So I'm out there, I have a roll of Code of Color 100.
It's a real fine-grain print film.
And as this thing is coming closer, I'm getting more and more excited.
And as it came into full view of my viewfinder, I was like a 10 or 11-year-old boy seeing a naked woman for the first time.
My whole body was just vibrating.
And I didn't know if I had, if, for all I know, all 36 exposures were blurred, but I didn't know that.
So we packed up, said, well, let's head back to Vegas.
Back then in the States, we had things called photo mats.
They were a little kiosk occupied with a lot of people.
Print your pictures for you, yeah.
Yes.
And so I was hoping to get back to Las Vegas in time to drop my film off so I can pick it up the next day.
So on our way back, we stopped at a little Ailey Inn for a quick bite.
And we didn't get back to Las Vegas until about a little bit after nine.
And the photo mats were closed.
And so I'm just, I'm on pins and needles.
I can hardly wait to see what I shot.
And John Lear said, well, I have a new friend coming over.
He just moved here from Albuquerque.
He's interviewing for a job out in the desert.
So about 10 minutes after John said that, a knock on the front door.
John opens, you know, answers the door.
And this very nice young guy comes into John's study and he said, hi, I'm Bob Lazar.
Excuse me.
And I said, nice to meet you.
And then I told him about my dilemma about the F-117 photos.
And he said, hey, I have a C-41 processing unit at my house on the other side of town off of West Charleston.
Let's go over there.
Let's process the film and print a few, see if they're good.
And I said, let's go.
Well, that's interesting that he would have that at home, isn't it?
Yeah, he was, well, he's quite a guy.
He was doing film processing for real estate agents.
And he'd do it, you know, turn around in 20 minutes if you needed it.
So we jump in the car.
We're not more than a minute outside of John Lear's house as we're heading towards Lazar's place.
And he looks at me and he says, you know, I feel sorry for Lear.
And I said, why is that?
He said, well, the dumb SOB believes in UFOs.
How stupid is that?
I said, I'm a nuclear physicist.
If I can't prove it mathematically or put my hands on it, it doesn't exist.
And said, and you can put a gun to my head and you couldn't convince me that UFOs were real.
Well, we all know about a year later, there was a silhouetted guy being interviewed by George Knapp with code name Jarrett, who said he was working on reverse engineering alien spacecraft.
That was Bob Lazar.
So prior to going out at S4, going to work at S4, you couldn't put a gun to Bob's head to convince him that UFOs were real.
So are you saying that once he got a job at Area 51 or thereabouts, his view of it changed completely?
Because he was encountering stuff that proved we were doing back engineering.
Is that the whole story?
Absolutely.
Wow.
Absolutely.
And I don't think he was at that particular time when he first realized that his job was to do reverse engineering on propulsion systems on alien spacecraft.
It wasn't until they, you know, six or seven months after he hired on that they called him up to Indian Springs Air Force Station, which is now Creech Air Force Base, where they fly the UAVs all over the world.
And he met a couple, probably NCIS or FBI agents, one of the two.
And they put a gun to his head and said, we don't like what you're doing.
We don't like some of the people you're associating with.
And they threatened his life.
And he said, I can't deal with this.
And I think that was the catalyst that pushed him over the edge to go public.
And he did it because he was fearful for his life.
But if he made it public and they whacked him, which I think they would really would have loved to, because he said, if I die of a heart attack or I die in a car crash, I was taken out.
Right.
But one thing that they did do, he claims, you tell me if I got this wrong, he claims that he did work there and he did do all those things and does know all this stuff.
But he says that they disappeared his resume, his curriculum vitae, his background.
They got rid of his records.
His social security card that he had on his possession has never been issued, according to the federal government.
But as another little antidote to Bob Lazar, I was assigned to the Pentagon during Desert Shield and the early part of Desert Storm.
And I had Bob Lazar's W-2.
I had blocked out his Social Security number because I didn't want that floating around.
Just to explain to my UK listeners, that's a tax form, isn't it?
Yes.
That's how you pay your taxes.
It's from the organization that paid you, and it shows the amount of gross dollars and the amount of taxes and other fees paid to the federal government.
I think we call that a P60 here.
People will know in the UK what that is.
So I had his W-2 in my back pocket, and I was, at the time, I was an E6 tech sergeant.
And I'm at the Pentagon, and I had a couple hours of which I had nothing to do.
I'm sorry for jumping in here.
I'm really sorry, my listener.
I'm sorry for jumping in.
How did you come to have his tax paper on you?
He gave it to me.
Bob and I are friends.
Sorry, continue the story.
I'll shut up.
Oh, yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah.
I just assume a lot of things in my head.
I know everything, you know.
So I'm looking for the U.S. Navy organization that paid him, and there isn't an organization listed in the Pentagon directory.
So I've identified the thing that looked the closest.
I don't know if it was in Naval Investigative Services or something along those lines.
So it wasn't in a restricted area of the Pentagon.
So I went over there on a break and I walked into the office.
I'm in uniform.
I'm in my class A's.
And there's a young lieutenant, JG, which is the same as a first lieutenant in the Army, the Air Force, and Marine Corps.
I don't know, probably similar in the British military.
And I said, sir, can you tell me where this organization is located?
And I hand him Bob's W-2, and he looks at it.
He said, excuse me, for a second.
He gets up and he goes into the two-star admiral's office, which I thought was kind of strange.
And 15, 20 seconds later, whatever, it was just a real brief walk in and walk out.
He said, the admiral will see you now.
Now, those of you who have been in the military, whether it's in the British military or in the United States military, a Navy Admiral, two-star.
It's not going to make time for you.
Absolutely.
He's not going to talk to an Air Force enlisted puke unless something really pulled his chain.
And so I go in the office and I give him a real sharp salute.
Instead of saying at ease, he said parade rest.
So I'm standing there rigid.
And he has Bob's W-2 in his hand.
And he says, Sergeant, I don't know where you got this, but if I ever see your face cross the threshold of my office ever again, you'll be the most sorry son of a bitch in COE, United States military.
Do you understand me, Sergeant?
I said, yes, sir.
So the very sight of Bob Lazar's name was enough to trigger him.
Oh, yeah.
And with that, he put Bob's W-2 into his shredder and he looked at me and he was irritated.
Wow.
He looked at me, he said, Sergeant, you're dismissed.
And I gave him a sharp salute and I did an about face and walked out of the office.
So listen, to cut to the chase here then, you are convinced that Bob Lazar isn't what a lot of people around ufology claim, misguided or a fantasist.
You claim, you say that he, having known him, that he is exactly what he says he is.
Bob Lazar is exactly who he says he is.
Gee, well, I mean, there are so many things that flow from that then, because if the stuff that he's been telling us is true all these years, where do you think that leaves us?
Yeah, we have alien technology.
Either it's been given to us or we have recovered it from a crash site or we stole it.
I mean, it's just, there's a lot of different ways to look at this.
Well, Darcy's just said something very interesting.
You know, we shot it down.
One of the things that you refer to in the documentary, Darcy, is that there are pilots, military pilots, who have died in encounters with what we would call UFOs.
Yeah, that was Richard Dolan that mentioned that.
So there are historical accounts of pilots having dangerous run-ins with UFOs.
I don't think that those pilots died as a result of the UFOs going after the pilots, but out of defense, out of our endeavors to try and capture the UFO technology.
So for sure, there's got to be a history of this.
We've been engaging with this phenomenon behind closed doors secretly for over 75 years.
And people don't know about this en masse in the mainstream.
They're just learning about UFOs with the new launch of the UFO office to study at the Pentagon now.
Kind of son of ATIP.
So let me just ask you this.
Got to get to this question because it's absolutely crucial to the whole thing.
People are seeing triangular craft with a light at each corner everywhere in the United Kingdom, across the United States, all over the world.
How much of that stuff is ours?
And how much of that may be derived from alien technology?
And how much of that stuff comes from ET?
Can we put any kind of percentage on that?
Right.
So, I mean, you can't put a percentage on that.
And I think it's fair to say that a lot of that is our technology.
And it's very possible that we copied that form from alien technology.
So maybe some of the craft that have showed up over time are not ours.
Okay.
So another crucial question then that I know is incredibly hard to answer.
I'm not expecting you to give me a bad answer for it right now, Darcy, is, are we now cooperating with other civilizations?
I know that you talk with Richard Dolan extensively in the documentary.
He seems to think that there are a number of species of alien.
Not all of them are lovely and nice.
But the question remains, are we currently cooperating on some secret level with other beings from other places?
I think that rumor that there was a meeting between Eisenhower and some off-world race or whatever.
That really started with Michael Salah, and there's no proof to that.
There's no actual, yeah, there's just no proof.
There's no history of that ever actually happening.
It's just a rumor.
But I think that we have armed our skies and armed space to the ninth degree with defensive technology.
And I think that the powers that be in the military-industrial complex know what's out there, and they're sending very clear signals through aggression and such that they're not welcome when they come unannounced or uninvited.
So I think that there is some, in my opinion, there's some kind of understanding, you know, understanding exactly that we're starting to.
There's lots of contactees out there.
There's lots of experiencers.
I'm not discounting that.
I think that there has been contact by individuals.
There is a possibility that you look at the story of the, what is the case?
I'm thinking with Robert Emmenger here.
UFOs past, present, and future.
They talk about the Holloman Air Force Base case, where there's apparently a little bit of footage you can see of a UFO, but apparently, you know, what really happened was a UFO landed at Holloman Air Force Base and a humanoid got out that was not human and went off and had a chat with a military official in a closed room.
I think that that's very possible.
I think the military is more read into this than any president.
I think presidents have tried to get access of this information.
They're just the full story.
They're not fully read in because they have four or eight years max.
And the military, the Pentagon, the officers that are running this cover-up, they might be sitting in their spot for 20 years.
They're in for the long haul.
Okay.
So if this, you know, this is the kicker with it all, really, isn't it, though?
If we have that technology, if we have triangular craft that can do remarkable, amazing things, there are a few things that flow from it.
Why are we investigating it now in Washington?
That's one of those things.
So there are two prongs to this question.
Why are we investigating it if we know anyway what it is, or parts of the official complex knows what it is?
And the other part of the question is, you know, how have we been able to keep it so damn secret?
I think my opinion on this is that we're releasing this now because we're preparing the public for things that are going to come out eventually anyways.
So there's no stopping the flood at the floodgates anymore.
You know what I mean?
And what I refer to when I mention this, when people ask, is space.
Space is outer space is where we're going in a public forum.
Again, this is going to be covered across mass media.
When folks like Elon Musk are sending the Starship to Mars, well, there's going to be certain things that might happen in space that are going to prove we're not alone.
And they need to get ahead of that.
I think that when we start doing that again, they're going to start to release that, hey, this is not just our neighborhood.
This is a cosmic neighborhood.
And we, you know, as we do these sort of things out there, we got to be, you know, cognizant that certain things might happen.
That's my opinion.
We're not just getting ready here for a reveal.
We're getting ready for a big reveal because I've never thought of this before.
If we have this technology and we are developing it on the quiet, wherever it came from, and we also know that there are alien species coming here, and we may get to know the truth of what's out there in the cosmos quite soon.
Who knows?
The reveal process then is going to be a couple of stages, isn't it?
It's going to be, yes, there are other species in the cosmos, and they visit Mars and other places, and here they are.
But don't panic because we can level peg them on some of their technology because we've been preparing for it.
So do you think the reveal is going to be two stages like that?
Yes, I do.
And, you know, you will, in my opinion, you'll have press conferences where they'll be talking about, you know, facilitating security for certain space operations that are being run in the public.
You know?
And facilitating that security is going to be with objects like the TR-3B.
I mean, whatever we have now, not the TR-3B, because again, that's old anti-class.
Whatever has derived from it.
Yeah, exactly.
So I think we're going to start to get some stuff like that out in the open eventually because A, they can't hold back forever.
Energy, the whole energy paradigm can't be oil and gas forever too.
So we're going to start to see things flipping over in the next 18 years from oil and gas to these renewable energies.
But then we're going to start seeing, you know, you've got the fission reactor in the UK there that's harnessing the power of the sun.
And we're going to have a lot more of those types of reactors popping up all around The world.
You know, many different advanced nations are going to be having something like that near their mega cities, and we're going to get off of the fossil fuel standard for certain things.
So I think that's going to open up to releasing more information about possibly anti-gravitic technology 20 years from now.
Okay, and little by little, bit by bit, we are having reveals of technology.
But, you know, when I read about them in the newspapers, I think, well, how could we have got so far so quickly?
So maybe more of this is going to happen.
And maybe this is all part of a plan, that there will be a big reveal that includes the fact that we know there's something else out there, but we've also got some technology that we haven't talked to you about.
And knowing that we've got that technology that we haven't spoken to the public about will stop the one thing that everybody had feared, or a lot of people had feared, if there is a revelation of aliens out there, and that is civil disobedience, mass panic, and all of those things.
If we've got it covered and we can tell the public, I'm talking, I'm just kind of playing the part here of the overall government here, but if we've got that technology and we can tell the public that we've got that covered, then there's not as much to be afraid of, is there?
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah, I mean, it's going to be, I mean, this is the real core stuff here.
You know, if all of this is so, this is absolutely core to all of it.
I think it's a great documentary, Darcy.
And, you know, Jim Goodall, thank you very much for being part of all of this.
Well, I appreciate it.
You know, we've had to cover a lot of territory here, Jim.
I would love to talk with you separately at some point if you would have the time for me.
That would be fantastic.
Any time, because right now it's 12 noon my time.
Okay.
So I'm 7 p.m. my time.
So you're seven hours behind me.
Okay.
As we record.
And I become eight hours when daylight savings.
I mean, all of my timings for everything that I do go right out the window because the United States does that at a different week than the United Kingdom.
So we're completely out of sync for a little while.
I think all of that happens in March.
I don't want to think about that.
Darcy and Jim, thank you so much.
Both of you, is there anything that I haven't asked or covered that I should have?
Well, I mean, I just have just a few tidbits.
First of all, is the letter John Andrews received from Ben Rich in June of 1986.
He'd written, John Andrews and I were Ben's pen pals, if you want to call it that.
And John was one of the original interceptors going out in the desert.
But he had a.
Oh, my mind just went blank.
Oh, he hadn't, I got it now.
He had written a letter to Ben asking if he and Kelly Johnson believed in UFOs.
And he said, now there are two categories, both man-made and extraterrestrial.
And Ben came back on his corporate letterhead.
Darcy, I think you've seen the letter.
Michael Stratt has the original.
I got it from John Andrews' widow.
He said, both Kelly and I are firm believers in both categories because John says there's two categories, man-made and extraterrestrial.
Said, we were fear to hours as unfunded opportunities.
And he underlines the U, the F, and the O. Said, but beware.
There are people who lead you astray and possibly do you harm.
So that right there indicates that both, Kelly Johnson saw UFOs.
He couldn't explain with a group of other engineers.
So it was, Kelly was a believer as well.
And the other thing is in 1972, 73, a gentleman friend of mine chased a UFO in an SR-71 and left him in the dust.
And we can get into that at a later date.
Well, just give me a little, as they say over here, a little soup song of it.
Where did that happen and how did that happen?
I was interviewing Lieutenant Colonel Dave Fruhoff.
He was a retired Air Force SR-71 pilot.
I was interviewing him at his home in Lynchburg, Tennessee, the home of Jack Daniels, by the way.
And we were talking about his crash.
He was a student pilot in an SR-71 that had a total electrical failure, and they had a bailout just north of Beale Air Force Base.
But then I asked him, I said, hey, do you believe in UFOs?
And he says, absolutely, positively, they do exist.
I said, you want to expand upon that?
And he said, yeah.
He was an SR-71 pilot flying out of Kadena, Okinawa in late 72, early 73 on a night training mission.
And he was in the far western Pacific.
He's at 78,000 feet, about Mach 2.7, which is barely an idol for the Blackbird.
It was a three-quarter moon.
He's going in a straight line.
And the moon's off to his left.
And off to his right, all of a sudden he gets a glint of something metallic that's going at the same speed that he is, but five or six miles off to his right side and six or seven thousand feet above him.
So he gets on the horn.
He calls Kadino Okinawa, calls the command post on Secure Voice, said, do we have another blackbird up?
He said, no, you were at the briefing.
You're the only one there.
He said, no, I got company.
I'm going to go take a look.
And just about then, the backseater said, hey, Dave, we have company.
And he said, yeah, I'm going to go take a look.
So he advances the throttles about a 10-degree bank as he's starting to climb and starting to get closer to this object.
And it wasn't smooth.
It wasn't a saucer type thing.
It had edges and it had a reflective surface.
Whether it was natural metal or the Codeans, I don't know, and neither does Dave.
And he's trying to get close enough so he can sort of see the shape as it blocks out the stars.
And when he was still 1,000 or two feet below The object and still a mile or so away, and this thing took off and left him in the dust.
He figured it left him at Mach 12 or Mach 16, about a 30-degree angle of attack, and he lost it between 180 and 200,000 feet, is what he estimates.
Holy moly.
So that's, you know, that's 1972, 73.
Fast forward in 1980, he retires from the Air Force.
He has a real high clearance.
He gets a job as facility manager at a place called Area 51.
So once he got there, he started asking around.
I mean, he waited a year, but he knew most everybody anyway.
But one thing you don't do in a classic environment, you don't start asking questions.
Yeah, because who are you gathering information for?
They will want to know.
Yeah.
So he said that over a period of time, he talked to a lot of people and they said, well, whatever you saw was not flight tested at Area 51.
And as facility manager, he said, he said, I was in every single building and structure within the confines of Area 51, from a small paint locker to the largest hangar.
I said, what about the underground facilities?
He said, there aren't any at Area 51.
Doesn't mean they're not there, because on the other side of the Papoose Range is a Nevada test site, and they have rock-boring equipment that will go through solid granite at a foot an hour, drilling a 36-foot diameter hole.
So it would be 10 meters?
Yeah.
So they have that capability for a reason.
Yeah, I mean, they built Yucca Mountain, which is the low-level radiation storage facility that's never been used yet.
And they also did it for drilling down 1,500 to 1,800 feet underground when they were doing underground nuclear detonations.
So did he confirm, to Cut to the Chase, did he confirm to you, Jim, that a lot of the stuff that we think goes on at Area 51 and people have speculated does, does?
It's correct.
Correct.
He said there was no alien technology in the five years that he spent at Area 51.
But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Isn't that intriguing?
I think that's a great point to park this conversation on.
The documentary, Darcy, is excellent.
Jim is a great, big part of that for reasons that if you see, I'm talking about a listener here, if you see the documentary, you'll understand that Jim is a linchpin in all of this.
I loved it.
I loved the way that you incorporate so many subjects and discussions that you don't see in other documentaries, Darcy.
So I think you should be very proud of yourself.
You tell my listener, so that I don't have to read it, the title of the documentary.
Yeah, it's Secret Space UFOs, Rise of the TR-3B.
And people want to check it out, leave a comment and a review.
It's on Amazon Prime in the UK, Google Play, iTunes, and Voodoo, I think.
So yeah, a bunch of different streaming platforms.
Thanks so much for having us on, chat about it and do a club in general.
It's frustrating because there's so much to shoe on in and so many different, you know, we call them so many different sidebars that you can get occupied with.
So, you know, we've been all over the place with this, but there's still more to do.
Is there going to be a part two and maybe a part three of this?
Well, yeah, this is technically the part two.
The first one I brought out was Secret Space UFOs part one, and that's where I got Jim's attention to work on this one.
So, yeah, there is going to be a third part, and I'm going to be bringing in a lot more astronomy and, you know, outer space sort of stuff.
So there's definitely an appetite for it, Darcy.
So, you know, nice one.
A lot of these documentaries these days, a lot of them look kind of similar.
And, you know, well done for making one that doesn't look like a lot of the others.
And I enjoyed it.
Thank you.
So Jim and Darcy, thank you for being part of my show.
You have a wonderful day.
And again, greetings from the colonies.
And I look forward to our next visit via Zoom.
Okay.
Thank you very much, Jim.
Thank you, Darcy.
Take care.
All right.
Take care.
Take care.
Darcy Weir and James Goodall.
And just to remind you again, the documentary is called Secret Space UFOs, The Rise of the TR-3B.
At the top of this, I didn't thank Adam, my webmaster, for his hard work.
He's a very busy guy at the moment, so terrific that he's making time for me.
Adam, thank you very much indeed.
The website is theunexplained.tv.
If you've made a donation to the online show recently, thank you very much indeed.
It's gratefully received.
And if you haven't done that, please do consider it.
More great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
▲
Export Selection