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May 4, 2021 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:14:56
Edition 542 - Dr David Whitehouse & Vincent Wilson
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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
My name is Howard Hughes, and this is the Return of the Unexplained.
Now, can I tell you as I'm recording these words, things here in London pretty dramatic.
We have got a spring storm, and I mean a big one.
Just kicking off here.
I'm looking out of the window, and the rain is starting to throw itself at the window.
Hopefully, you can't hear it.
I've taken steps to try and make sure that you don't.
And leaves and little bits of branches and things like that are coming this way.
Very, very unusual for May here.
But that's the way things are.
I'll keep you posted as we record.
Thank you very much for all of your emails.
I've had some great ones lately.
Albert, who asked me about Howard Hughes, my namesake, the American multi-billionaire, asked if I was in any way related.
Albert, I think just looking at my surroundings proves the point that I am in no way related to Howard Hughes.
I wouldn't be living here and I wouldn't be working if I was.
But it's a lovely thought that I've often entertained.
And if you've sent an email recently, thank you very much for it.
You can always email me through my website, theunexplained.tv.
Follow the link and send me an email from there.
And thanks to Adam for maintaining, creating, being the driving force behind the website and getting these shows out to you.
Thank you, too, to Haley for booking the guest.
I want to do two things on this edition of The Unexplained.
First of all, I want to let you hear a conversation that I actually had last night on my radio show with former BBC Space and Science Editor David Whitehouse.
We were reflecting the life and times of a wonderful man.
I think that's the only way I can describe him, Michael Collins, the command module pilot of Apollo 11, the mission, of course, that went to the moon first.
Michael Collins was the guy who had to stay behind.
The more I researched him after he died last week, the more I discovered that he really was a very special person.
And that's why I wanted to mark his life and times with David Whitehouse, who wrote what I think is the definitive book about the Apollo missions, Apollo 11, the inside story, and also Space 2069, the more recent book.
So we'll do that first, and then we'll get to Vince Wilson.
And we're going to talk about, well, everything from seances and the history of them and the way they're done today, Ouija boards, techno-spiritualism, and a lot of other stuff, including the technology of hunting ghosts.
So Vince Wilson follows Dr. David Whitehouse here on The Unexplained.
Thank you very much for all of your support.
And if you want to get in touch with me, you know, you can do it through the website, theunexplained.tv.
When you get in touch, please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show.
And if you've made a donation towards The Unexplained recently, and you know who you are, thank you very, very much for being kind enough to do that to help me along the way.
Okay, first item then.
Dr. David Whitehouse, remembering the life and times and achievements of a remarkable man, Michael Collins, Apollo 11 Command Module Pilot.
I've heard him been described as if you consider the Apollo 11 crew as a band.
He was the drummer.
He kept everybody in their right place.
He kept the pace of the mission going.
He was, of course, in charge of the command module.
And that is a very difficult vehicle to fly.
Remember, this was 50 years ago, and computers were rudimentary.
And he was on top of that completely.
But the measure of the man is that having gone down the command route, command module route, which is not something that many astronauts wanted to do because it precluded them from a landing, they all wanted to be lunar module pilots, he was told that because he'd done this, he was in line to be a commander of a subsequent Apollo mission and he could land on the surface.
He could walk on the moon.
He turned it down because he didn't want to put his family through three or four more years of training.
Being part of the first crew to go to the moon and land on it was enough for him.
But that's a remarkable indication of what he was like, that he put his family in front of everything.
Not all the astronauts, I suspect, given some of their personal histories, you know, would have done that.
But he did.
And he was content to be in the command module.
And I think it was a transformative experience for him.
I want to play some sound that I found on YouTube.
It's just a minute or so.
This is from PBS in America, who did a recent interview with Michael Collins.
And he talks here about what it was like to look back from the command module around the moon, but look back at Earth.
The moon was nothing compared to my view of home planet.
It was it.
It was the main chance.
I'd look out the window and there it would be, a tiny little thing.
You know, you could obscure it with your bum, but every time you put it away somewhere, it'd pop out.
It wanted you to look at it.
It wanted to be seen.
It was gorgeous.
It was tiny, shiny, the blue of the oceans, the white of the clouds, little streak of rust color that we call continents.
It just glowed.
Having gone out 240,000 miles and seeing it gives me a much greater sense of fragility, a much greater urge to do something to protect that fragility as we go along.
See what I mean, David?
It sounds to me, and that was quite a recent interview on America's PBS, that it transformed his view of this planet.
I think it did.
I mean, many astronauts had a similar view of where we live and our place in space.
But he was probably the most down-to-earth, if you like, astronaut.
He was the one of the Apollo 11 crew, partly because the attention was on Armstrong and Aldrin, who walked on the moon.
He was the one who adjusted most to everyday life when he came back.
He was the only one able to hold down a normal job when he became director of the Air and Space Museum.
And you got the impression when you talked to him.
He was a details guy.
He was humble.
He was interesting to talk to.
There's one story, I was researching the book.
I was talking to a friend of mine who had interviewed him when he was training for the Apollo 11 mission.
And he was interviewing him in the car park.
And after the interview, instead of going into the simulation hall, he ran back to his car with a piece of paper.
And my friend said, Well, why are you doing that?
He said, Well, actually, I want to take the mileage on the car because I haven't filled in my expenses form.
He was a details person.
There was no, you had to be like that to fly the command module.
And the Apollo 11 crew were not a close crew.
They were not best buddies, but they worked thoroughly well together.
And, you know, he was the linchpin.
He was the drummer who kept that mission going.
Was he almost like a kind of lubricant between the other two?
Buzz, who we know could be a little irascible, and Neil, who was, you know, another details man, but obsessive, it seemed, about it all.
You know, he was very intense about it all.
So there you have those two polar opposite characters with Michael Collins in between.
You could say that, yes.
I mean, they were certainly a strange crew.
They weren't like Apollo 8.
They weren't in each other's pockets, so to speak.
They weren't best friends.
They didn't socialize together.
The Apollo crew were a crew of individuals who were focused very much on what they were doing.
Armstrong, an obsessive flyer whose obsession with understanding the system, with knowing what could go wrong, meant he was the perfect person to fly the lunar module down onto the lunar surface.
Aldrin, a very good support person, but who somebody inside him always felt he should have been the main act.
And between those two difficult personalities, Michael Collins kept everything going.
He described the whole mission as a daisy chain, which everything had to work right.
He had to work right.
He had to get that command module working.
He was on his own.
The thing he feared most, and this is the measure of the guy's integrity and his courage, was that if something had gone wrong down on the surface of the moon, they'd crashed or they couldn't take off.
Armstrong Aldrin would have been dead.
He would have had to come home on his own.
He'd have had to press that button, even perhaps abandon his colleagues who were still alive perhaps on the lunar surface.
And he would have had to have fired the rock motors to come home on his own.
He was prepared to do that.
He faced, you know, he knew that that was a possibility, particularly on Apollo 11 mission.
And yet, his attention to detail, his training, training, training kept that mission going.
And he's fine hard to believe how risky that mission was.
Sorry to jump in.
And one thing that did come out of a number of the interviews that I looked at today was that he actually savored, you know, you and I might be a bit scared.
I don't know.
The 48 minutes that he was isolated from communication, not only from his fellow crew members, but also from Earth, when he was round the back of the moon every hour or whatever it was, every orbit.
He was around the back of the moon for a period and out of communication, didn't seem to be a problem for him.
I'd asked him about that many, many years ago.
I met him many times.
I wasn't friends with him, but I spoke to him on many occasions over the years.
And I did ask him about being isolated because the previous mission, Apollo 10, there was a command module pilot in the command module, and he did see his two colleagues go off in the lunar module, but it wasn't so much an isolation because that was a much briefer foray from the command module.
But he was, as you say, he was on his own orbiting the moon while his companions were on the surface of the moon.
And he said, well, A, there was so much to do that he kept himself occupied.
And actually, he said it was a whole new experience that nobody had really savored before.
And occasionally he would stop and say, look, I'm in this incredibly complicated capsule.
I'm farther away than any man has ever been before.
I'm on my own.
And he took this wonderful picture, which he used to show people, of the lunar module coming to dock with the command module with the Earth in the background.
And he used to say, there's only one human being who's not in that picture.
And it was him because he was behind the camera.
Wow.
Wow.
And in his later years, in those interviews that I was looking at today, he looked like a man who was completely at peace with himself, a man that you might meet in one of those retirement communities in Florida in the sunshine.
You know, he was very calm and relaxed.
As far as you know, did he ever regret not having been able to go on the moon?
I don't think he ever did.
I mean, for journalists and for documentary makers, one of the things that you had to ask Michael Collins was, did you regret giving up the command?
You know, you were offered, strongly offered, the chance of commanding a future Apollo mission and walking on the moon.
Did you regret that?
And he says no, and you have to believe him because he felt that, well, he felt that he part of the first crew to go to the moon.
And to be honest, if you go down, if you go into the public and you go to even a convention and you say, what's the crew of Apollo 11?
Armstrong, Alden, and Collins.
And you say, okay, who was the sixth man to walk on the moon?
I don't know.
He was part of the first crew, and that was enough for him.
And it's unlikely he would have been more famous or more fulfilled had he even just, had he walked on the moon three or four missions later.
An amazing man.
And you can read more about all of this, can't you, David, in your book, Apollo 11, The Inside Story.
You're very kind.
Thank you.
Remembering the life and times of a man I would love to have spoken with and would love to have met, Michael Collins, the command module pilot on Apollo 11.
And his achievements and the way that he conducted his life.
Very, very special, don't you think?
Now, let's get to the main guest for this edition of The Unexplained, Vince Wilson.
We're going to be talking about seances, Ouija boards, ghost hunting technology, and a lot of other cool stuff.
Vince Wilson, thank you very much for coming on my show.
Thank you for having me on.
I really Appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to today's episode.
Now, and I did a little bit of reading.
You're in Bridgeville, Delaware.
Talk to me about Bridgeville, Delaware.
I know nothing about the place.
Oh, it's a dull place.
It's in the middle of nowhere in Lower Delaware.
And I originally lived in Baltimore, and that is where I do most of my business and lectures, workshops, the paranormal, the supernatural, and magic.
All usually happens in Baltimore.
I commute there from Bridgeville, but Bridgeville is not known for its culture.
It is not like Baltimore City, which is a significantly larger town by comparison.
Bridgeville has horse farms and a few restaurants, a Walmart, and that's about it.
I have some bad news for you, Vince.
I don't think you're going to get that job with the tourist board.
Probably not.
But it sounds like, I mean, I'm sitting here in London in the middle of a storm.
It sounds pretty idyllic for me, but the other man's grass is always greener.
Baltimore, of course, is a place that I'm always reading about in connection with paranormality and ghosts hauntings.
That is correct.
It is a very haunted city from the area known as Fells Point, a very historic town.
It goes back to the 1700s.
It has a lot of history involving the War of 1812 and America's Revolutionary War, some significant Civil War history, too, in regards to the United States.
And of course, it is the final resting place of Edgar Allan Poe, where he died here under mysterious circumstances and is buried at the Westminster Burying Grounds in downtown Baltimore.
Right.
What were the mysterious circumstances?
Can you remember?
Oh, absolutely.
I better remember.
Poe was trying to, he was 40 years old.
He was trying to raise money for a magazine he wanted to start called The Stylus.
So he went on a fundraising tour and went all over the mid-Atlantic and the eastern shore of the United States and raised about $2,000, which was a significant amount of money at the time.
This is like raising $100,000 today.
And at some point after departing the train in Candom Station in Baltimore, he disappeared.
No one knows exactly what happened.
He reappeared a couple of weeks later inside Dunnage Hall in the area known as Little Italy today in Baltimore.
Now, what's interesting about this is it was a voting hall.
And contrary to some of the myths and legends out there and misinformation, Poe was not discovered in the gutter.
He was disheveled.
He was barely able to stand, but he was inside the hall.
The eyewitness reports confirm this.
He could barely talk or walk or anything.
He had to be helped to the local hospital where he passed away a few days later of an undisclosed illness.
Unfortunately, the records that were made by the doctor, his physician, were lost over time.
We do not know exactly what they had to say about it.
Absolutely.
There are theories that he was involved in a voting scandal called Cooping, in which they would kidnap you and force you to vote for a candidate over and over again.
And then you had another theory that he was murdered by a literary rival named Rufus Griswold, that he was perhaps, you know, there's always the stories of drug addiction and alcoholism, which are exaggerated and partially untrue, to be honest with you.
Some of those rumors started by that same literary enemy, Rufus Griswold.
So, yes, a very mysterious case.
You know, it will probably never be solved.
You know, they didn't teach us in school nearly enough about American literature, and I wish they'd taught us more.
I think the closest I got to any American literature was when my English teacher recommended I read John Steinbeck, and I think that was about it.
But Poe was an awful long time before John Steinbeck.
Thank you for filling me in on that.
I want to know about you, because the topics that we're about to address in this conversation are going to be pretty wide-ranging.
So talk to me about you, what you do, and how you describe yourself.
Well, wow, that's complicated to some degree.
I've acquired a lot of skills, quite a few skills over my lifetime.
I'm a certified parapsychologist.
I'm actually the executive director of the American Institute of Parapsychology.
I am a hypnotist, and I'm certified with the National Guild of Hypnotists to be a consulting hypnotist, and I'm also a trainer of hypnotists.
And additionally to that, I'm also a practicing magician.
And as far as illusions are concerned, I do storytelling magic that focuses on the bizarre and mysterious, otherwise known as a mystery artist.
And those are mostly the focus I am in right now.
But, you know, it seems to me I'm not surprised by those conjunctions of things that you've done.
My late neighbor, Nigel, he was a member of the UK Magic Circle, and he'd done television magic a long time ago, in the 60s, I think.
He'd been on TV here.
And it always struck me that there is a confluence between magic and hypnosis is often part of magic acts.
I mean, people like my friend Paul McKenna does the hypnosis on stage, of course, of people, and has been doing that for many years.
And then, of course, you've got the paranormal.
And it seems in ways that I don't understand, maybe you do, those three fields and the parapsychology are all mixed up together.
Well, they have similar origins.
The Anton Mesmer, from who which the word mesmerism evolved from, lived in the late 1700s.
He was a French philosopher and with interest in many different things.
He developed a concept of animal magnetism and what would later be called mesmerism and the idea that you could cure illnesses, disease, and other things with magnetism.
And he was debunked eventually by Benjamin Franklin and some other individuals and died in disgrace, basically, unfortunately.
However, he did spark interest in that.
The thing he started never ended just because he was exposed as a supposed fraud, partially because he genuinely believed what he was doing was real.
He wasn't trying to be a huckster by any stretch of the imagination.
And these ideas evolved into what later would become hypnotism, but also spiritualism.
And then later, through that, paranormal investigation, psychical research, parapsychology, and modern magic, all evolving from the single point in history with Anton Mesmer.
You know, everything we think we know about these different topics.
Modern magic evolved from spiritualism.
Psychology evolved from trying to understand the mind and psychic activity.
Hypnosis evolved from that.
Modern magic evolved from that.
So that's kind of why they're all related to some degree.
And it's very hard to know sometimes where magic, the performing of magic, which is a wonderful thing.
I could never do magic tricks.
I have friends who are very adept at doing them.
I am useless at anything like that.
So I take my hat off to anybody who can do that.
But the borderline between where magic ends and the paranormal begins is a bit of a fuzzy one, it seems to me.
And a lot of people who've been involved in magic over the years, like Houdini, have been interested in the paranormal, haven't they?
Yes, yes, it's true.
The interest in the paranormal has never seemed to wane.
And I'm surprised by that, actually.
I thought that the, to be honest with you, if you'd asked me five years ago, you know, I would say the fad was burning out, you know, from the advent of the popular TV shows.
You know, that I thought it never dulls completely.
It never fades away, but there's definitely ebbs and waves of when it increases in popularity.
You know, there was the 19th, you know, most of the 19th century, the early 20th century, and then it sort of tapered off a little bit.
And then it kind of picked up in the 60s and 70s again and going into the early 80s with movies and TV shows and documentaries.
There was In Search of Most Haunted.
There was Ghostbusters, for example, X-Files.
And then it kind of died down just a little bit again.
And then Ghost Hunters and similar TV shows came out.
And it's been on an uphill swing ever since then.
Well, I've been doing this stuff on radio and podcasts for 17 years now, inspired by my hero, The Great Art Bell.
So I've been here for an awful long time.
Okay, magic and the paranormal and those who claim that they can harness the paranormal.
Those things met in the persona of a man we lost last year, James Randy.
Did you know James Randy?
I knew of him, and I certainly was mixed in with those circles.
And I've actually performed psychic surgery demonstrations, which are, let me be clear, is a fraudulent thing that doesn't actually exist.
Demonstrations at skeptical conventions and events, but I never got a chance to meet James Randy himself.
You know, he was a complicated individual and sort of paradoxical in some cases in his thought process.
Fascinating man, but slightly prickly, I think, from the dealings over the years that I had with him.
That's a fair assumption.
Very fascinating.
I understand, yes.
So the thing about James Randy and other people in the magic profession, the magic trade, is that nobody is better qualified to be able to discern whether something that appears to be paranormal is or isn't than somebody who is used to deceiving the public for entertainment.
Well, that's true.
It's true to some degree.
But you have optimistic skepticism, you have pragmatic skepticism, and you have blatant debunking.
And I think there's some confusion of where those things stop and begin.
A lot of people who think of themselves as objective skeptics are actually just blatant debunkers that won't allow themselves to, they don't want to believe.
They will not allow themselves to believe.
And I'm not saying that paranormal phenomenon in this case is definitively real, although I have my own beliefs.
I'm saying is that even if it were real, 100% real, assuming that it is, okay, debunkers would never accept any results.
It would always be some other reason or excuse for why it didn't occur.
And so it's not objective.
It is biased because it is a conceit of the anointed, the idea that they know better than anyone else does, if that makes sense.
I mentioned Houdini.
I gathered just by doing a little bit of internet research today, Houdini was fascinated by the idea of life after death and paranormality, it seems to me.
And I think he promised when he died that he would try to contact this side.
And I don't think, unless I'm completely wrong about this, I don't think that ever happened, but maybe it did.
But Houdini's fans apparently hold a yearly seance to try and make contact with him.
Are you aware of that?
Oh, yes.
I've done those myself, as a matter of fact.
I'm very, very knowledgeable on seances.
In the United States, I'm considered quite the expert on it.
Every October 31st, on the anniversary of Houdini's death, because he did die on Halloween after all, people around the world do Houdini seances in which they try to contact the spirit of the great escapologist, Harry Houdini.
Houdini died a few weeks after being sucker punched in the stomach, although that's probably a coincidence.
He had appendicitis, and that's actually what killed him.
You know, not the actual punch to the gut.
Although some people think that might have contributed to it, many doctors and physicians today disagree with that analysis.
But yes, he promised Beth, his wife, that if there's any way he could come back, he would.
And so far, there's been no definitive proof that ever actually happened.
Although the tradition amongst illusionists and magicians and fans of Harry Houdini continue to this day, I will certainly be doing a Harry Houdini seance this year.
And so the fans and people like you, the devotees, live in hope that maybe they will be able to make that contact and maybe Harry Houdini will make good on his promise to make himself known from the other side.
Hopefully, that would be wonderful.
It would be.
And please, if it happens, tell me first.
I will.
You'll be the first person I contact.
Well, no, I do.
See, I've logged down the time now, and I'm going to write this down.
So you are very, very interested in seances.
And I've talked about seances on my radio shows and my podcasts a number of times over the years.
In fact, we did one.
It's very hard with the radio regulation that we have in the United Kingdom.
Maybe the same in the States, but it's very tight in the UK.
So you cannot broadcast the process itself.
You have to go to commercials, do something else while that is happening.
So we did it, and we had a medium in there, and we all got together, joined hands.
This was live on the air.
Then we went to some break material while she was doing whatever she was doing.
And we had, you will be aware of this.
We had a three-legged stool in the studio with a bell on the top.
And as we were concentrating, the idea was that if there were spirits around, and you know, the building in Hatfields in London where talk sport radio as it was used to be, was, you know, there was something about it.
So I had a feeling something might happen, but I warned the medium that if I saw any faking, I would have to out it live on air.
So that was the way that we did it.
You know, no pressure.
So we had all the sound effects going, and my producer, Dave and I, and I think the technical producer, we were all in the studio doing this.
And I have to say, the three-legged stool did move, apparently by itself, and the bell did ring.
So that seemed to be pretty impressive.
We did that in front of the live listening radio audience.
Was that a proper seance that we did there?
Yes, I think so.
I know the UK has policies in place for hypnosis.
I did not know it had such a thing for seances, unless that's related.
Hypnosis, you cannot perform hypnosis in front of a crowd or televise it without a permit.
No, I couldn't put that on the radio.
We couldn't describe the process.
And seance, we couldn't do the actual procedure of the seance live on air.
So we had to cut to something else while that was happening and then come back in the culmination of it when it had all happened.
And then we were compliant with the regulations.
But that's how things are done here.
Yeah, there's no such rules here.
So I've done a few virtual seances since the beginning of the pandemic situation in the world today, you know, in which we would have people come in via Zoom and we would go through a modified introduction through the seance.
But yes, your seance is actually very traditional.
You know, seances as we know them today started during the spiritualist movement in the 19th century.
Everything about seances that we think of in Western culture, the word itself, the reference to seance, it's a French word just meaning session, basically.
The round table, the holding of hands, the gathering around in a room, the ritual procedure, the introductions, all these things are true to the nature of how we recognize seances.
Now, of course, you can argue that spirit communication goes back thousands of years, and certainly that is true.
But the visualization, the rituals that go with seances, that all started in the 19th century, and they are still viable today.
I always encourage paranormal investigators to occasionally drop the technology, the ghost hunting gear, and that sort of thing, and attempt to do a traditional old-timey seance.
I think they would definitely have a great time with that and perhaps get really good results from it as well.
Give me, Vince, if you would, your definition of seance.
A seance is a ritualistic gathering of individuals in which usually more than one, although it can be done with an individual, in which there is an opening that creates a safe parameter.
There is the process of actually communicating with the spirit during it.
And there's the closing of the seance at the end, in which you allow the spirit to depart from whence it came.
You know, that's, for all intents and purposes, with all the other variations, that is what you are doing in a seance.
It has ritual and process to contact the spirit and to allow the spirit to depart from whence it came at the end.
So it's basically a very dramatic, semi-theatrical, in some cases, form of spirit communication.
And when we talk about communication, if we were to go to one of these things, if we believed in them, what would we expect?
Would we expect the manifestation of sounds?
Would we expect characters to appear out of thin air?
Ectoplasm, what would we find?
All those things are possible.
Not so much the ectoplasm as it was back in the days of the height of the popularity of seances during the Victorian era.
Ectoplasm was probably always fake, unfortunately.
More unfortunately, if you think about how disgusting that substance was.
I think that's still contested.
I have interviewed people who assure me that ectoplasm as a thing exists.
But I'm also aware of the ectoplasm that exists in the 19th century, that is the goo that would come out of mouths and other bodily orifices.
And you know what I talk about if you look up marjorie and a medium, for example.
That was probably always faked.
There is a modern interpretation of ectoplasm, a mist or etheric form that may be real today.
So they create a clear definition.
So yes, there's a form of ectoplasm, but when we're talking specifically about Victorian seances, the ectoplasm you see in the old photographs, that was probably, probably always fake, but there's some evidence that maybe some of it was real.
Is that clear?
Very clear.
I find the idea of the seance very compelling, fascinating, and a bit scary, I have to say.
But seances per se, certainly in the modern era, and I'm talking maybe back 60 years or so up to the present day, a lot of them got a bad rap because it's very clear that there's a lot of fraud out there.
There's a guy called Alan Gold, a very famous psychic investigator in the United Kingdom.
He's a professor, a university professor, who I met and interviewed when I think I was about 20.
And he has this wonderful voice.
And he's come across a lot of fascinating evidence and a certain amount of what he would call egregious fraud.
And there is in the seance field, would you agree, a lot of egregious fraud going on.
Oh, absolutely there is.
Yes, it's always been a huge issue when it comes to seances.
And it's a shame because fraud is completely unnecessary.
Even if you're trying to do a theatrical seance, you can have an excellent theatrical seance that is what I mean by that is meant for the purpose of entertainment, in which there's no gimmicks, no props, no special effects, no additional additives added to it, even by the seance host or any compatriots.
And you can have an excellent and very entertaining seance that may or may not be real because it depends on your intention for it, that will be a wonderful experience for everyone present.
So fraud and fakery, that is completely unnecessary, even if you're not doing it for the intention of contacting spirits, even if you don't believe in that.
Faking it is just a sign of an unimaginative seance performer or a fraudster, if you will.
But there are those, as we know, around the world who have built reputations on the accuracy of what they do in this field.
And, you know, they've challenged science and skeptics to disprove what they've achieved.
In your experience of doing these things, of being involved in these things, can you think of maybe one, maybe two occasions where you really have been all left-wing?
You've been left astounded by what you come up with.
Absolutely.
There was a, I did a paranormal investigation in which we did a sort of meditative seance at the Waverly Hills Sanatorium in Louisville, Kentucky.
It's one of the most haunted buildings in the United States.
In fact, the number varies, but thousands of people had died there from tuberculosis.
It was a TB hospital, a sanatorium.
And it is a dilapidated building currently, but has a souvenir shop in it nonetheless.
Because they allow you to rent the location for parallel investigations these days.
But it is a wonderful place to investigate if you're into that sort of creepy atmosphere.
And we investigate that for an overnight with many well-known investigators.
I think it was 2008 was the first time I went there.
And we had some amazing experiences, including a shadowy figure that walked toward us from over 100 feet away.
We had aimed a laser pointer down a hallway.
And we were doing basically what can be interpreted as a modern techno-spiritualistic seance.
In fact, techno-spiritualism is what some parapsychologists refer to modern ghost hunting as.
Techno-spiritualism.
That's correct.
You're going to have to define that.
But techno-spiritualism is communication with ghosts by the belief in ghosts using modern technology and means, you know, EVP, video cameras, and so on and so forth.
Any device used to communicate with ghosts is a form of techno-spiritualism, the process in which you do so as well.
So that you wrote a book called Ultimate Ghost Tech.
It would have been about that then.
Exactly.
Ultimate Ghost Tech covers a lot of aspects of techno-spiritualism, modern parental investigations.
And a proper way of doing it, if you're really serious about pursuing a career or path in parental investigation.
I like to call the amateur parapsychologists out there sci-fiel researchers.
I think ghost hunting has gotten a little diluted over the past few decades.
Well, I think Scooby-Doo's got a lot to answer for, I think.
That's correct, yes.
So back at the seances then, the ones that have fascinated and maybe chilled you along the years.
So there was this one where you were actually able to point a laser pointer at something.
Yes, we pointed this laser pointer at the end of this hallway.
And we could see it hitting the far wall, approximately 100 feet away.
And as we aimed the laser dot at that hallway, we noticed a second dot hovering in the middle of the air, about a meter in front.
So I guess the conversion for your, it's about 30 meters, I suppose, away from us.
And about a meter from the wall, a second dot seemed to form as if it was hitting something translucent.
And then going through that translucent thing and hitting the wall.
And the strangest part about this is the dot, the second dot seemed to be getting closer to us.
And we noticed this over, it could have been minutes.
But it was, it was, it was a, it was probably just a few seconds.
But it was starting to get closer to us, like a steady pace.
We could see it shimmer as it was getting closer and closer.
It was, you know, it started 30 meters away.
And then it was, you know, 25, then 20, and then 15.
Then it was, you know, eventually 10 meters away.
And then 5 meters and 3 meters.
at some point around three meters I suppose I said someone turn on the flashlight and they did and it was gone.
And to this day, when I tell this story, someone inevitably will send me a message saying, why did you turn the flashlight on?
And I said, you go there and not turn the flashlight on.
You know, it was me and five other individuals, and we all saw this occur.
And I'll be honest with you, it's like, you know, there's never been a case in which someone has died or been possessed or injured from a spirit at the Waverly Hills Sanatorium.
On the other hand, I wasn't prepared that evening to be the first.
Oh, my lord.
So it was that intense.
But actually turning on a flashlight and stopping this seems to me to be a little bit like being at a casino and watching the ball on the roulette wheel heading for your number and stopping the wheel.
Indeed.
Now, the reason we knew this was going to work is because we were given a heads up by a local paranormal investigator that for certain types of phenomena at Waverley Hills, any sort of light would dismiss the phenomenon.
You would not be able to get anything, no evidence at all.
So he specifically told us, do not use any sort of flashlights or infrared, anything, anything that gave off any type of light.
Of course, those who say don't put the lights on sometimes are faking stuff.
That's true.
And in this case, it was the real deal.
Yeah, I believe it was.
Now, you know, of course, a skeptic can argue that we were experiencing a group hallucination or whatnot.
I felt what I saw was real.
And I have not experienced anything that intense since then.
That was pretty amazing.
Does a seance always have to involve a medium or somebody with mediumistic ability?
No, not at all.
I think you just said you need a group of people that have the intention of communicating with spirits.
There's the famous Philip experiments in Canada in the 1970s, which they created a talpa or thought form.
It manifested an individual.
I'm sure you've heard of that case.
They manifested an entity from fiction, basically.
They made up an individual and created this individual during the course of multiple seances over weeks and months.
And it worked as far as the researchers were concerned.
They had definitely created a consciousness, which they named Philip.
Yes, I remember this story.
I haven't done it in depth, but it's been mentioned by a few guests.
And in a way, of course, it's fascinating, but it muddies the waters, doesn't it?
If you think that you're communicating with spirits or something from the other side or some kind of entity, the fact that you can generate stuff yourself kind of, it's amazing, but it gets in the way.
It does.
And that's a problem with a lot of the seance is so much simpler to some degree if all you're interested in is an experience.
And I think a lot of investigators had to ask themselves, are you interested in an experience for your own progression as a human being?
Or are you interested in contributing to a field of study?
And those can be linked or separate things.
Because if you're interested in studying, then you should be documenting and recording, filing.
You should have submitting material to an oversight, oversight committee of some type, for example.
And that's very complicated and outside the means of some people or the desires of others.
So if you're just one of the experienced, that's fine.
And seances can definitely provide experience like that without having to have a lot of equipment or a mediumistic individual present.
Technology can get in the way too, of course.
We're all familiar with frank boxes and ghost radios and so on and so forth, usually based on random number generators, for example.
Or indeed those things, as you say, the boxes that go up and down the FM radio dial.
Exactly.
And you take out words or phrases.
These ghost boxes may be subject to the will of the individuals present because similar technologies were used in parapsychology labs to detect psychic activity, manipulations of probability fields by individual desires.
So you have a bunch of people standing in a circle or sitting in a circle wanting something spooky to happen.
And because you have a random number generator, which is based on probability and, you know, set up in the room inside of a radio station dialer or Ghostbox or Frank's box or whatever particular technology they're using, they could be actually influencing their own results.
You know, that's probably why you always hear these things say, get out, or why are you here, or something creepy, eerie, or spooky like that, because that's what they want to happen.
So that in itself gets in the way.
So how do you do it purely to make sure that if there's any chance of communicating with spirit or whatever you want to call it, you know, how do you ensure that the group of people that you bring together to do that are not subconsciously derailing the process?
The best way is to try to establish calm minds beforehand and to try to make them as objectively trained as possible.
You know, you want those individuals going in there with blank slates as much as possible, you know, realistically.
You can't clear their, you can't bring people in not knowing what they're getting into, of course.
But you could ask, you know, through some sort of meditation or just, you know, just maybe even having a nice dinner before the investigation and just talking about not paranormal related things could help you in regards to your investigation.
Going there with as clean a slate as possible, not biasing them with too much information or the nature of the haunting may help with that sort of thing.
And a nice little relaxing meditation, which is what happens before a lot of seances, you know, going through breathing exercises, telling everyone to clear their mind, for example, that sort of thing can help you to at least some degree not bias your investigation as much as possible.
This seems to be a lost thing these days where everything seems to be so high energy and intense, you know, because they want to have something scary happen as opposed to actually investigating.
But Vince, this is, we both know, not something that you should really do for fun.
I mean, this is not fun stuff.
You know, the papers periodically bring you stories of cases where things have gone wrong.
Can you think of any cases where people have gone into a thing for fun and they've got more than they bargained for?
Absolutely.
Let me preamble that with a controversial thing I'd like to say.
EVP can be more dangerous than Ouija boards.
A lot of people are afraid of Ouija boards.
Some people are afraid of seances by extension, and yet they will do EVP because there's some sort of dissonance there, which I don't, oh, I understand why.
It's because of pop culture.
Movies, TV shows, books, and other sources of fiction have turned people against some of the more classic ways of spirit communication, like Ouija boards.
Ouija boards are not inherently evil.
They are cardboard with a plastic planchette, you know, and they're manufactured by Hasbro and Parker Brothers.
There's nothing wrong with Ouija boards.
That's still not something that I would recommend people to dabble with because of that factor that we've just hinted at, alluded to, the fact that a lot of people are doing this stuff for fun.
And if you go into anything like this with the wrong intention, you can't be sure of what you're going to get.
Exactly.
And let me elaborate on that.
So why do I think that Ouija boards are safer than EVP?
Because Ouija boards have rules.
Seances have rules.
They have guidelines.
There's three in particular with a Ouija board.
And at least one of them is used for the purpose of titillation.
That is the never use in a graveyard.
I actually don't think that's a big deal.
But the other two are always say goodbye.
And I don't remember what the other one is off the top of my head.
But anyway, there's three rules.
I think I skipped a beat of my brain when I set them out of order.
But anyway.
Maybe you should never say one knock for yes, two knocks for no.
I don't know.
Exactly.
Yeah, so the Ouija board has rules.
Like you're supposed to establish who you're trying to contact with.
You say their name specifically.
Or you say the person who haunts this house, something along those lines.
But EVP usually starts off with three very dangerous words.
All right.
Is anyone here?
Okay.
Any real spiritualist, any person actually studying the history of ghost investigation, spirit communication, seance, and so on and so forth would tell you that you can't say, is anyone here?
And the reason for that is you open your environment up to any entity.
Even outside the perimeter of where you are, if you believe in other dimensions and so forth.
What might you be letting in?
Well, if you believe in such a thing, demons, dark forces, or malevolent entities, or beings even that are alone and perhaps not intentionally damaging, but by wanting to have human living company could be an attachment you might take home with you for forever amount of length of time, usually temporary in this case, but still something you probably don't want to happen.
So yes, those are things that could theoretically happen if you do even an EVP experiment the wrong way.
So those people who think, and I'm sorry to jump in here, but those people who I know, and I'll keep this brief, who do these things, and I know people who do these things, and they preface what they do by saying, we come here with the best intentions, with respect.
We come here with respect.
And then they say, is there anybody there?
Do they let themselves off the hook or are they still wrong?
They're still wrong in that case, because by following up with anyone here, do you think a demon cares if your intentions are good?
I doubt it.
No.
So you should do some cursory research in the history of the location.
That would be very helpful.
That way, you can contact a specific person.
And by the way, a seance does not require you to even be in the location to contact a specific person.
You can say something like, for example, let's say I want to contact the spirit of King George.
So, I would say something along the lines of time and space matters not in someone in your state.
We would like to contact the spirit of King George.
For example, that's just an example of something you might be able to say during a seance.
So you're specifically contacting with the intention of reaching out to this historic figure.
So that is, your intentions are very clear.
But however, when you say something, even with like, my intentions, our intentions are good, you know, without the focus, an entity who doesn't care what your intentions are could come in because you left it wide open like that.
You gave an invitation, you know, because you gave an intention.
You can focus it.
A better way of putting it, if you want to open it up to it, is to say we invite entities with positive intentions.
We invite the person or persons haunting a specific location, the room that we are in, the house we are looking on, the property we're on.
Even that has a certain degree of risk, but you definitely help narrow it down and make your environment a little bit safer in the process.
Now, if we were on broadcast radio in the United Kingdom, and I think it's common sense anyway, but the rules, as I've said to you, are tight in the UK for good reason.
You know, I would have to say that we are in no way advocating that you do this or try this, and the conversation that we're having is for your entertainment purposes only.
And I think those are the things that we have to say.
I know it's different in America where the rules are a lot looser about free speech and stuff like that.
But here we would have to say that, and I think that makes sense because there are people who are vulnerable and they're easily impressed by things in a bad way.
And it's not something you want just anybody doing, I think, just randomly.
And this is something that is, I wouldn't say you're playing with fire, but this is something that I would not personally advocate anybody to just drift into.
Oh, I agree.
And let me add on to what I'm saying.
It's like you should read the available literature.
Go to known experts and ask questions.
Study and research and talk to people.
Find a mentor, an experienced, knowledgeable, and known, established individual.
Contrary to popular belief, there are experts out there on these topics that have good advice to give.
And it might be if you're trying to pursue a path down these lines, it's best to work with other more experienced individuals first.
And you should not be getting the entirety of all your information from television shows.
You know, read and learn and do some research.
Don't rely on Google.
Actually, find out the origins of things and why people do things they do.
And most of all, reach out to someone who's more experienced.
That's definitely one of the best ways to go about.
Do some background searching on those people, too, to make sure they're on the up and up and legitimate.
And don't play with this stuff, I guess, is a real ballpark way of leveling it right down.
Exactly.
You know, it's better not to take the risks.
Everything is a tool that can be used wrong.
You know, a screwdriver can, you know, help.
You can build a bridge with a screwdriver, but you can also hurt yourself.
Exactly.
Yes.
So it's like all these things are tools and the wrong hands, inexperienced hands, that can be potentially dangerous or hazardous to you.
Are seances as popular today as they might have been in the 1930s, 40s, 50s?
Now, I think they're increasing in popularity recently as people are looking for alternatives to techno-spiritualism.
Seances are very simple, require a minimum amount of materials.
You can do a seance with nothing at all.
And they're very easy.
But I don't think it's yet as popular as it was in the 1930s or during the spiritualist movement.
But I think it might be heading in that direction currently as people are looking for very simple ways, alternative ways of doing spirit communication or perhaps being a little bit more spiritual themselves.
What's the dynamic you think at work here where you have a group of people?
Presumably they know each other, maybe they don't.
What is at work, do you think, when these people connect in this quiet place with this aim?
And again, I'm saying I am not here to advocate that you do this.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I'm just saying this to my listener.
But when people do do those things, what is it that happens between them?
I think it creates a connection.
You know, part of the reason that people hold hands in seances, for example, is because they're trying to create a connection.
Now, there's also a purpose of trying to avoid fraud, you know, because with everyone's hands in, you know, restrained, basically, everyone knows where everyone else is and what they're doing.
So you don't have people trying to lift a table or move objects around and that sort of thing.
But there's also a psychic connection, a spiritual connection that's created amongst the people there.
A shared experience can bring people together and seances are capable of doing that.
You know, there's not unusual for friendships to be created from a seance in which strangers have met for the first time there.
You know, it's an experience, a unique experience that everyone can have together that can create lifetime connections with people.
So is it like if you have one lens, you can see so far ahead.
And if you put another lens in front of that at the right distance, another lens you can see much further.
Is that a crude way of summing up what a seance potentially could do by magnifying the receptive energy, if there is such a thing of people together, thereby making whatever might be available to come in zero in on that place?
Absolutely.
That's a beautiful analogy you have there.
That is absolutely correct.
Yes, by having more people there, you definitely create a connective energy with people.
You know, sometimes what I do is, for example, and once again, as you've been saying the entire time, do not try this outside of an experience situation.
But here's something you should keep in mind.
You know, haunted places are like capacitors, okay?
You never hear of a realtor being scared of a haunted house.
It's, you know, every story follows a certain degree of tropes, basically.
People move in, things slowly start to happen over a period of time.
You know, they become scared.
They call professionals, so on and so forth.
You know, we've all heard these stories, okay?
They're like capacitors.
They need the energy of the living to manifest to some degree.
And although there are exceptions, there seems to be a consistency amongst haunted locations.
And even haunted objects can have this sort of capacitor type of charge.
I often will pass a key, preferably from the location itself, but if not a one from an antique store or something along those lines, around the room in which everyone holds the key, examines it, you know, touches it, puts it between their hands.
And what they're doing is they're giving a little bit through just through the experience and maybe by intention, a little bit of their life energy into the key, that little piece of metal.
And I place it on the center of the table and that is our focus point.
Everything can happen right there.
But once again, I know what I'm doing.
I was mentored other more experienced people than myself with decades of experience.
And I've done a lot of research over it to the point in which I'm actually director of the American Institute of Parapsychology.
So make sure that you mentor someone else or attend a more experienced seance performers seance.
If you want to see this happen for yourself, do not try it by yourself.
Do not do an amateur night at your house trying to accomplish a seance.
It's not worth it.
Apart from trying to contact Houdini this year, is this something that you do yourself fairly regularly?
Regularly enough, at least once or twice a month.
And as it gets, as things start opening up again here, probably more often.
But I've been doing some virtual seances.
I do plan on scheduling one soon.
So if you follow me online, I will be posting something soon about an upcoming virtual seance.
Virtual seances are very safe with the right people doing them.
I've been mentoring and keeping in contact with some other seance performers to try to perfect the virtual seance.
We've pulled from the history of seances to figure out how you can create connections that are safe and protective over potentially hundreds, if not thousands of miles around the world through the Zoom seance, such as it is.
We encourage people to create their own spirit protective circles.
The protective light you may be familiar with from spirit self-protection, where you imagine a column of light around you.
You visualize this in your mind and your mind makes it real.
And again, we come back to that point that some people regard these things as entertainment and they have to be dissuaded or disabused of the notion that it is entertainment.
Exactly.
Can I ask you one thing?
I've asked a number of people this because it was something that happened to me as a young man in London and you might know what happened.
I've asked a few people about this over the years.
My sister, there was a time when I was having a difficult period in my career and things, and I kind of thought that there were some people who were not exactly well-intentioned towards me.
You know, if you're a so-called bright young man, you know, if you're 22, 23, and you're doing really well, there are some people who are not going to like you for that.
So I was going through a difficult period and trying to find answers.
And my sister suggested that I went to a place in West London.
I think it was Acton in London, but wherever it was.
And it was a front room of a terraced house, a large terraced house there.
And there was a lady whose name I can't remember.
I don't even quite know exactly why I was there.
I think I was looking for some kind of reading.
But she did a weird thing.
We went into the front room and she turned out the lights and she told me to close my eyes and she put her hands on my head.
And within my closed eyes, I saw, we used to have a TV program here called The Saint with Roger Moore.
I don't know if you ever saw that on TV.
I did.
I used to watch that show in reruns over here.
Well, he used to get a halo around his head.
Remember that?
I got a halo around my head that I could see as a burning, bright, white halo of light that I saw within my closed eyes.
To this day, because she wasn't really touching my head and it was a darkened room, I don't understand what happened there.
What do you think that was?
It sounds like it is a type of protection circle, to be honest with you.
People in the right circumstances can create these energy, protective energy circles.
It's a circle of psychic energy or possibly even divine energy, depending on your own personal belief system.
But I could see it, Vincent.
I could see it.
Oh, yeah.
It's rare, but it Can manifest itself in reality.
People talk about orbs, for example.
They show up only in photographs, and a good portion of the time that is dust or moisture and that sort of thing, but sometimes they're real.
And rarely, in some cases, they can actually manifest themselves.
And it was the famous 1973 entity case, the research by Dr. Barry Dav, and in which the Doris Spider case, in which these actual balls of light, what we would call orbs today, manifested in the room and were visible to all those in attendance.
So, yes, in the right circumstances, what normally would be invisible can be visible and sometimes even tangible.
And I would imagine that's what happened in your case.
You had a visible protective circle around you.
Well, I was a young, thin, I wish I was thin now, young, tall, thin, blonde, innocent.
And I just, for all of these years, decades as it is now, to be honest, I've never quite understood what happened there, but I remember it vividly.
Well, it looks like it's a wonderful experience.
I'm sort of jealous to not have experienced that myself.
I can't remember her name.
Neither can my sister.
We can't remember precisely where it was, but I know it happened, and I know that I was like 23, 24.
Have you ever experienced what might be called a demon?
Well, some people have tried to argue to me that what I experienced at Waverly Hills was something demonic, but I think it was just very dark.
So I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure if every case of a shadow person is actually a demon.
I experienced a situation once at Governor's Bridge Road in Maryland in which a force was present there that we could not explain.
We saw the group that investigators I was with saw a, it was a very still day, and we saw these trees at the top of a hill or a small mountain range.
And it was a very hilly area.
And we saw a stream of wind, for lack of a better term, like a river of wind, go through the trees in a very clear path.
It was about 15 meters across.
And it was very long, as long as the wooded area was, and we could not see the end of it.
And it came directly at us, went across the road where we were standing, because we were parked along the side of the road, and went across the street, continued through that wooded area, and disappeared.
And after it had went through us and passed us, we all immediately felt completely drained of energy, as if all of our energy was sucked right from us.
A couple of us had to drop to our knees and kneel by the vehicles in order to recover from it before we go on with our investigation.
It was a haunted bridge is what we were investigating that day.
It was a very unusual experience.
Two other experiences, which I can say very quickly, was at a panth along the way to a cemetery in Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, and along the panth, all of our equipment drained at once.
It was a similar experience, except minus the wind.
Our flashlights, our cameras, everything went off, powered down.
Even our watches on our wrists powered down completely.
And when you looked at the time stamp later on one of our video cameras in which we were recording as we ascended the hill, the path, you could see the time stamp end and then the recording start exactly where it left off as if no time had passed.
So even the internal clock was affected by it.
Good lord.
Yeah, and the worst part about this story is that this in itself is an interesting footnote, except for the fact it happened just as it became dark.
And this is a treacherous path with a 100-foot drop, a 30-meter drop right next to it.
So everyone stood still until the lights came back on again.
It took maybe a minute later, maybe a full minute, but eventually everything just started recovering, returning to normal, and our flashlights worked again, and we were able to proceed up the hill.
But it was a terrifying moment where we thought if we moved, you know, we would, we would, you might know.
Some of us might, yeah, to tell the tale.
So it kind of looks like something was trying to show you a point.
Yes, exactly.
Like, what are you doing?
You know, your intentions better be good is how, that's how I interpret it anyway, and a few others did.
You know, some of us even, there's speculation too that it could have just been a, not necessarily a warning, but just an unintentional happenstance of the enormous amount of energy that was present there.
Or indeed, as some people would say, just a coincidence and one of those things.
Yeah, exactly.
I know it wasn't a coincidence because that would have affected some of the equipment and not all of it.
Not all of it together.
I don't know how that could have happened.
And you said there were two things.
That was one of the things.
The other thing was I did manage to attend an exorcism in Baltimore.
It was a mostly El Salvadorian population in that area, and there was a church there in which a friend of mine had told me that they were having issues with one of the flock.
And now, I don't want to give out too much information in this regard because I don't want to reveal the location, that sort of thing.
I think this is far enough in the past, maybe 18 years ago, that no one would even remember locally anyway.
Although I do think this would resonate with the people who were in attendance there, but I did get to see an exorcism on a young lady, maybe 22 or three years old, in which she contorted, she spoke in tongues.
There was no clear supernatural thing, no levitation or fire or temperature changes and that sort of thing.
I was there merely as an observer.
But she spoke in multiple languages.
Now, the languages were Spanish, English, Latin, and Portuguese, which are all languages she would have learned.
In South America, they still teach Latin in churches, for example.
So she could have known all those languages, although that would have made her very adept in language.
And she did contorted ways that looked unnatural.
And she also spoke in voices that seemed impossible for her to vocalize.
But she did, you know, nevertheless.
And so that was after the exorcism, she seemed perfectly normal.
I heard nothing about her reverting back to that state again after that.
And how do you explain that other than the purging of demons?
Well, you know, obviously a skeptic would look at that and say it was a psychosis of some type, that she was having a mental break or was a very good actress looking for attention.
That part I definitely don't believe because she, you know, the movements she made were clearly painful or would have been painful for anyone who was not in some altered state, whether through demon possession, oppression, or some kind of psychosis.
But it certainly was not from someone merely faking it or no matter how good an actor you are.
Yeah.
Vince, this has been a truly fascinating conversation.
I'm glad to have found you.
I hope that we can continue this at some point because I think there's an awful lot more to talk about.
And thank you very much.
This would have been a difficult conversation to have on broadcast radio in the United Kingdom.
So it sits much better with my podcast.
And I'm sure people are going to be fascinated by this.
And I thank you very much indeed for doing this.
I know that you have various websites.
If you want to plug a website or a couple of websites, please do.
Yes.
Okay.
So for the, you can find out a lot about what I'm doing in regards to virtual seances and magic through vincewolsonmagic.com.
It'll take you to a series of links.
If you want to know more about the paranormal side of things that I do and would like to perhaps get a copy of Ultimate Ghost Tech, you can go to ghosttech.com, G-H-O-S-T-T-E-C-H.com.
Vince, thank you very much for giving me your time.
And as they say in the US and the UK, have a good day.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
That was a lot of fun.
Your thoughts about Vince Wilson, gratefully received.
And before Vince, of course, you heard Dr. David Whitehouse on the life and times of Michael Collins.
Thank you very much for being part of The Unexplained.
Keep the messages coming.
Go to my website, theunexplained.tv.
That way you can communicate with me.
And if you want to check out my Facebook page, too, the official Facebook page of The Unexplained with Howard Hughes, you can do that on Facebook.
Where else would a Facebook page be, I suppose?
You can do that right now.
More great guests in the pipeline.
Until next we meet.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
And above all, as the storm rages around me, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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