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May 29, 2020 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:21:17

Edition 458 - Paul Sinclair

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Coming to you on another boiling hot day here in London, so if I sound a little hot and bothered, that is the reason because I'm working in a completely airless room.
	This is just one of the few days that I wish I was actually functioning out of an air-conditioned studio.
	Mostly I've enjoyed my own company and doing my own thing my way.
	But I'm here and I've because I want to make sure that you don't hear traffic noise and that kind of thing.
	So I've got the window closed and the temperature, what's the current reading?
	Actually, it could be worse.
	It's 76 Fahrenheit here where I'm speaking to you.
	I thought it was more than that.
	It feels like more.
	There we are.
	And we've got more of this weather to come.
	But, you know, if it's a choice between this and the winter, give me this, I say.
	I hope that you're doing well and that you're getting by.
	If you're in lockdown in your part of the world, then I hope you're getting through all of this.
	And my thoughts and sympathies, wherever you are, are with you.
	Thank you very much for your continued emails.
	Keep them coming.
	It's nice that during this time, I have now been locked down and have not really seen anybody for two months.
	And you may well be in the same position.
	And maybe you have loved ones who you haven't seen too.
	So, you know, I get that.
	If you want to shoot the breeze with me, then please do contact me, as a lot of people do, either through the Facebook page, the official The Unexplained with Howard Hughes page, or you can contact me through the website theunexplained.tv.
	Follow the link from there.
	And if you've made a donation to this show recently, thank you so much for that.
	Of course, they are our lifeblood and allow this show to continue.
	Okay.
	Thank you to Adam, by the way, my webmaster at Creative Hotspot.
	Thank you, Adam, for everything that you do.
	Let's get to a couple of messages before the guest on this edition.
	A very important update about his new work, not even released yet.
	Paul Sinclair will be here in just moments.
	First of all, a few things to do.
	A couple of people to say hello to.
	John, fascinated to read about your background in the movie business, John.
	What a life you've had.
	Tracy in the Northwest, nice to hear from you again.
	Andy near Reading, who says that he's noted an increase in UFO sightings during the lockdown.
	I think certainly if you read what the papers are telling us, that is the case, and I think it probably is.
	He also wonders if I did the Zimbabwe school sightings.
	I did.
	If you go back through my back catalogue of podcasts, you'll see one about the Ariel School encounter there, Andy.
	Estelle wants to hear more about and from Noah Angel, who is the investigator and artist who's been investigating ghosts at the British Museum.
	We had a little bit with him on the radio show and the podcast.
	So we'll do, you know, I promise you I'm going to do at some point something longer with Noah.
	Nice man.
	Thank you to Anthony in Toronto, Brigitte, Helen, Vicki, Stewart, Joshua, Nicola, Russell, Greg, Daz, Tom, Dean, Arthur, Creaner, Ken, and Malcolm, and many, many more.
	Thank you so much for all of the great emails and helping me through what has not been the easiest time one way or another.
	So thank you.
	Stuart, thank you for your story that I got in the last few days.
	If you want me to put that on the radio show or try to at some point, let me know.
	Richard Hoagland on recently.
	Loved by some of you, not liked by others, but then that was ever the case.
	Peter on the Isle of Man wants me to get Andy Gilbert back.
	Good one, Peter.
	Must do that.
	Also a listener, I'm not going to use your name unless you want me to, who told me a great story about continually seeing the same woman with the same face, thinking at him, apparently, in many different locations, not only in this country.
	How can that be?
	And what was this about?
	This mental communication, seemingly.
	If you want me to do more about that story and name you with it, please let me know.
	A great story.
	Okay, what else have I got to do?
	I think that's probably it.
	Please connect with my Facebook page, the official Facebook page of The Unexplained with Howard Hughes.
	And if you'd like to send me an email, please go to the website, theunexplained.tv, and you can always do it from there.
	Remember that if you put comments or rather if you try and mail me through Facebook, most of those I just can't see, I don't see.
	So it's better to contact me through the website, theunexplained.tv.
	And nice to know that you're there and nice to hear about your lives, too.
	All right, Paul Sinclair now in the east of Yorkshire, the man who was behind the truth-proof books and an awful lot more.
	His latest book, which is almost finished and almost ready for publication, is a bit of a diversion.
	It's called Night People.
	We'll be talking about that, also some new cases and stories.
	And also at the back end of it, we're going to be asking Paul some questions that you have sent in.
	So there is an awful lot to get to.
	I've got to stop talking.
	Let's get to Paul Sinclair.
	Paul, thank you for returning to my show.
	Thank you very much, Howard.
	It's a pleasure.
	As always, love talking with you.
	Well, you know, I've followed you and been with you through all of these years, Paul, and I'm really pleased that it's going so well for you.
	How are you getting by?
	This is a question that I ask everybody these days, because it affects people in different ways.
	How are you getting by in lockdown?
	Well, we're coping same as everybody else, no better, no worse.
	I've been lucky, Howard, that I've been able to immerse myself in the book that I've been writing, The Night People.
	And basically, that's just about finished.
	And luckily, we've just seen a little bit of movement through the lockdown.
	And, you know, things will be able to move forward.
	We'll be able to get out a little bit.
	And in terms of the books and the fact that you've got a much bigger profile now than when we last or first spoke, how are you handling all of that?
	Because it seems like the world wants to talk with you now.
	Yeah, I was fortunate enough a few weeks, well, probably a month ago to speak on coast to coast with George Knapp.
	And we had a few hours.
	He just let me go, to be honest with you.
	He didn't ask me many questions.
	I just let me just rattle the accounts off and things.
	And I've had a few inquiries to talk on lots of other shows, to be honest with you.
	And I'm not being chosy.
	I'm not being elitist.
	I'll talk on any show at any level.
	But, you know, there's certain shows I love talking on more.
	And this sounds ever so, I don't know, creepy maybe, but I love talking on your show, Howard.
	Well, you know, I like there are a couple of people, but you are, you know, you are at the top of that list whose journey I have been with from the beginning.
	And it's really great when you see people, you know, when some people try really hard and they don't manage to achieve, and sometimes in spite of all their efforts, they don't get to where they should.
	I'm glad that there is some justice there and you're getting to where you need to be because, you know, I can spot, oh, I can spot talent when I see it.
	So I'm really pleased for you.
	Now, let's talk about something that you wanted me to talk about first, then.
	We've talked a lot about the incidents on the cliffs and all of those things.
	So let's talk about this.
	You've had a story in recently, and you get them all the time, about some missing time to do with a trawler.
	It's a fabulous story, and it's more a time slip.
	I mean, obviously, you can decide for yourself and the listeners, but it involves a boat that was in Bridlington Harbour in 2014 called the Boyzone.
	The skipper of the boat was called Ted.
	I've got his surname, and he's told me I can use it, but we'll just keep it at Ted.
	And Ted and his son took a fishing party out in the summer of 2014.
	I'm waiting for his logbook because there's a few more details and we can have an exact date.
	But they were on the harbour at about 4.30 in the morning getting the bait ready and everything else.
	It was what they call Wesys, people from West Yorkshire that come for a day's fishing out on the wrecks off Flamborough Head.
	So at 5.30, the guys arrive and they sort of board the boat and Ted and his son are there and he plots everything into his chart plotter on the boy's own and he's got a radar on the boat as well, which was set for three quarters of a mile, but it would go to 50 miles.
	These are all things that are quite important to the story.
	So they left at 5.30.
	When they left, there was another boat, not five minutes behind them, because he remembers looking back and seeing this boat leave the harbour.
	I know the boat, I know the skipper.
	But let me correct myself.
	I know the boat and I know who the skipper is, but we're not using his name.
	And they also verify that they left at 5.30, Ted left the harbour.
	He said they chased the tide down to the head end.
	That's Flamborough Ahead.
	And then they planned to stay for 30 minutes at a place called the 4X, which was about an hour and a half away from the harbour.
	I need to stress now that the total time from five, it would have been 5.30 in the morning and 9 o'clock when they arrived at their fishing ground called Big Ridge, which is about 11 miles off Flamborough and Bempton.
	Interestingly, very close to this magnetic anomaly, this sort of strange zone.
	So they should have got to the forex, if people can sort of bear with me for a moment, in an hour and a half.
	Ted decides he's going to have a sleep and leave his son, Tom, skipper in the boat.
	The boat, everything's plotted.
	They can't go wrong.
	He just has to follow the chart.
	And he's just got his head down for what seems like 10 minutes, I don't know, half an hour.
	And Tom shakes him.
	He says, what you woke me up for?
	He says, we're here.
	I said, what do you mean?
	How can we be here?
	He says, we're here.
	He says, but I sort of lost track of gathering what time it was and everything.
	He says, because suddenly I looked around and I said, how long has it been like this?
	He said, it started not long after he went to sleep.
	He said, but everything was golden.
	He said, there was a sun.
	It was a lovely bright morning and there was a sun, and there was no sea fret.
	But for a full 360, the sky was gold.
	I mean, I love listening to people try and describe these things and find analogies.
	And he said it was, looked like the colour of a golden Labrador.
	That was exact words.
	He said, I can't understand it.
	He said, it's weird.
	He says, and everything's quiet.
	He said, normally when we've got all this bait on board and the lads are baiting their hooks up, we've got seagulls following us all the way to the fishing ground.
	He said, well, there's nothing.
	It's as though we're in eye of a storm.
	He said, I couldn't believe it.
	He says, and then I looked at the sea and sort of said, and what about this?
	How long has it been like this?
	He said, since you fell asleep.
	He said, and the sea looked like somebody had poured oil everywhere on it, as far as the eye could see, sort of like a plasticky sea, which had no oil on it.
	I asked him, I did say to him, I said, are you sure it weren't oil?
	He said, there were no oil.
	It was not oil.
	He said, the next thing, we should have passed.
	I went into and looked at the plotter.
	He said that we should have passed over the top of 4X, where we intended to stay for 30 minutes to see whether they were going to get any good fishing.
	They were just going to give that a try.
	It's an hour and a half's journey to 4X.
	He said, and we passed it in 30 minutes.
	We were over the top, which is impossible.
	He says, this is just a cobble, you know, a fishing cobble.
	He said, I joked.
	I said to Tom, I said, did this boat stand up in water and go like a speedboat at any point?
	So what happened?
	It was an impossibility.
	He says, and I started to get worried.
	He said, I was starting to, in fact, feel a little bit frightened because I thought we were in the eye of a storm, which I'd never been in the eye of a storm, but I imagined this was the kind of stillness that you might get.
	The sea was flat as a pond, no seabirds, no sound.
	He said, so right.
	He said, I tried the radar and set it to 10 miles.
	And it found nothing.
	He said, 20 miles, it found nothing.
	He says, it should have, we're only 11 to 12 miles off the cliffs of Bempton and Flamborough, so it should have easily found them.
	And he said, I set it to 50 miles in the end.
	And there was nothing, absolutely nothing.
	He said, and I looked at the depth sounder and we were clearly on Big Ridge.
	And, you know, and the guys in the boat, I don't know how many fishing party, 10 or 12 guys said, I thought you said it were going to take us three and a half hours, three to three and a half hours.
	He says, and Tom just looked at him and said, start baiting up, start fishing.
	And they were catching fish.
	He said, but I didn't let on that I was frightened or really perturbed, but I were expecting to be we were going to get hit by some kind of storm.
	He said it were like we were in a vortex.
	Strangely weird is his words.
	Now, hang on, Paul.
	He was asleep.
	But the others must have experienced something while he was sleeping.
	They didn't know.
	The guys weren't, they were fishermen, but they were from out of town and they didn't know.
	They were more concerned that because Ted had told them it's a without the stop at big at the forex, it's a three-hour journey, but with the 30-minute stop, it's three and a half hours.
	They'd have been there for 9 a.m.
	Right.
	And we've got to say to listeners here, you know, three hours in the North Sea is, it's not for the faint-hearted.
	Oh, good.
	God, no, it really isn't, Howard.
	And they got there at half past seven in the morning, and they should have got there at 9 a.m.
	So they got there an hour and a half early, which is literally an impossibility.
	But the impossible did happen.
	So these guys, all they were concerned with was, you told us it were going to be three to three and a half hours and we're there.
	And Todd's and Ted's son says, well, just bait up and get fishing.
	We're here.
	Ted says, I just couldn't understand it.
	He says, I'm sort of scratching my head, but I'm looking at the depth sounder.
	I knew where we were.
	And there's lots of plots on this chart.
	He says, and he said, we should have been drifting with the tide when you're on the fish.
	He said, but we weren't moving.
	He said, I just couldn't understand it.
	So he got no radar contacts returns.
	The next thing he tries the radio, and that's just dead.
	There's nobody in communication with him.
	So he said, I'm really worried.
	You know, I'm starting to get worried.
	He says, and then all of a sudden, a ping come on the radar.
	He says, and I looked and it's the boat that had left the harbour.
	This is like an hour and a half later, two hours later.
	It's approaching.
	And he says, I can see it in the distance.
	And suddenly, radar contact.
	And the guy says, how long you been here?
	They're in contact with each other.
	He said, we've been here nearly two hours.
	He says, well, it's impossible.
	You couldn't have.
	I saw you leave harbour.
	He says, we actually don't know what happened to you.
	We thought you might have sunk because you sort of, I don't mean they'd vanished.
	Nobody saw them vanish, but kind of thing, they weren't there when they looked the next time.
	He says, and we were getting worried.
	He says, when did you see us?
	He says, when the radar started working again.
	Although I have to stress, listeners, that all the time that they weren't getting a return on the radar, everything seemed to be functioning okay on it.
	But they were just in the in nowhere.
	The outer nowhere, we'll call it.
	So basically, the guys in the boat behind said, well, we must have been mistaken.
	It weren't you then that left Arbor before us.
	So obviously they didn't have an argument or anything, but Ted said, it was us and we did see you and we did leave the harbour at 5.30.
	So basically, I've sort of condensed the story and, you know, I mean, we could have took a lot longer talking about this one, but everything functioned.
	The sea went back to normal.
	The sky went back to normal.
	I wouldn't say instantaneously when these guys appeared, but a short time after the radar detected them coming and they sort of draw alongside and they're fishing the same fishing grounds.
	And it's just a strange story.
	So it's not, Howard, a case of missing time.
	It's a, what would you call it?
	A time slip.
	It's an advanced.
	What it is is some kind of anomaly.
	But the question that they will be wrestling with, all of them, I would have thought, because you or I would, is were they transported through something?
	Were they simply picked up and placed down somewhere?
	How could that have been?
	Because as you say, these boats have a capacity.
	They have a maximum speed for the conditions that they're in.
	So what happened to them, if they're telling it exactly like it happened, and there's no reason to assume they're not, what happened to them cannot be explained by anything that we know.
	I'm presuming, unlike air traffic movements, there's nothing radar-wise that tracks the movement of small vessels in the North Sea?
	I dare say there will be, but I've not got anything other than what they've told me.
	Unfortunately, the Boys One did sink last year off Whitby.
	Because he did say we could have got the coordinates and we could have got everything off it because it still would have had that data on it.
	But he's got his logbook.
	I've got the, well, you listeners have got the story.
	I did ask if the guys on the boat, the fishermen, sort of detected anything unusual.
	And his words were, he said, well, no, he said they were there for a day's fishing.
	And they were just querying why I'd said we were going to be three to three and a half hours and we'd got there an hour and a half early.
	It were almost like one minute we'd set off and we were at Flambre Head end, head end as they call it.
	And the next minute we're there.
	He says, I can't account for it.
	He says, because I were asleep once we'd sort of got towards Flamborough Head.
	It's about 30 minutes to Flamborough Head and an hour and a half or an hour and 30 minutes, should we say, to the forex and then on from the forex to Big Ridge.
	All these things can be found on maps, on the naval maps, these sort of landmarks and points that I'm talking about.
	But I just think it's a really interesting story in view of the fact that they went missing in this zone where trawlermen report compass anomalies.
	You know, I think we've spoke about this in the past, Howard, where they'll fish, I don't know, for 10, 15 years and they'll get out 10 or 12 miles off Flamborough Head and suddenly compass is going AY and they don't know where they are.
	They do because they're seasoned fishermen, but the compass is not telling them they're in the right place and then they'll just go through it and on the way back it's not there and they can fish for another, God knows how many years and it doesn't happen.
	And the fact is that as human beings we are affected.
	We know this.
	I mean I'm not a scientist and I'm guessing that neither are you Paul.
	We are affected by magnetism.
	It's part of our natural cycle.
	You know, we're full of water and we're pulled back and forth almost like the tides and electromagnetism affect us.
	But for that to happen in that area, that poses an awful lot of questions.
	And for the people who are on board that boat, I guess they're going to be asking those forever.
	Yeah, well, I know, definitely know Ted and his son.
	He said it all, it's always puzzled him.
	Ted said it was as if we were in a vortex.
	It was strangely weird.
	And you know, you can't, you can't, if the guy's telling the truth and I've no reason to disbelieve him, then it's as strange as it gets.
	Absolutely.
	And it tells us one thing that we both know, you know, me doing this show for years, you doing your research for years, that the more you do it, the more you start hearing from people and the more they start telling you that they're ordinary people too, but their lives have been touched by things that are far from ordinary.
	And, you know, I'll tell you a little tiny little example of my own.
	I did a, you know, a lot of people are doing these Zoom sessions during lockdown to beat the boredom and all the rest of it.
	My job, I've been busier during lockdown, I have to say, Paul, than I've been for years working from home.
	But I did this Skype session, Zoom session, with three of my old colleagues from Capitol Radio.
	And, you know, they were all well-known in their day, still well-known.
	And they were the last people I would expect to tell me paranormal stories.
	And all of them, all of them have had the strangest paranormal stories.
	One of them experienced a ghost bus in London that wasn't there.
	And, you know, there were other experiences that they all had.
	And the point of this is, and it's bringing us neatly to your new book.
	I know what you're going to say.
	Is that all of us experience these things?
	And your book is about, it's not a collection of stories this time from other people's experience or things that you've gone and investigated.
	This is the story of your life.
	And it proves, if people will only be courageous enough to speak about these things, that most people, if they're honest, and I've always said this, have had experiences that cannot easily be explained.
	That's so true, Howard.
	You know, and I know I've said this before, but I think it's because we're dealing with something that is so unexplained, that is so different to everything that we know is normal in everyday life, that we sort of shelve it and put it to the back of us's mind because sometimes it's just more, it's too much of a stress to actually wrestle with the idea of what these things could be.
	Because no matter what theories you come up with, someone who doesn't believe, someone who's never had the experience, and you've got to give them people respect as well, providing they're not being rude, will just, will, oh, yeah, well, what you saw were a weather balloon, or what you saw were birds, or no, that weren't a ghost, that were just, you were feeling a bit woozy because you'd just woken up and there weren't really anybody there.
	And you get, you almost become conditioned to the condition and you listen to other people.
	And over time, those explanations sort of settle as fact in your mind.
	And then, you know, as prime example, when I saw the UF Ports Led Mir with Chris Short, with Shorty, he knew what he saw.
	We stopped the car, we looked, the van, should I say, and we looked at this thing and it was telling everyone at work what it was like and this huge tube as big as a jumbo jet.
	But then, oh, I don't know, over a period of six months, 12 months, two years, I weren't too sure, I don't know.
	Because every time he brought it up, somebody would laugh at him or give, you know, a little bit of ridicule.
	And I don't mean he couldn't take it, but it became more trouble than it was worth to try and explain that, no, this wasn't.
	And, you know, I mean, not many people want to involve themselves as deeply, probably, as what I've done.
	And you get to speak to lots of people, Howard, you know, not just the likes of me.
	And, you know, it's a rare and strange subject that we're immersed in.
	But I do find that people's minds are opening.
	Look, I worked for a few years with the BBC, and I don't now.
	And, you know, most of my colleagues were very open-minded, but one or two of them were very, very small-minded about all of this and thought that because I was doing this, you know, it's all mad.
	And by inference, I was mad too.
	And you still come across little pockets sometimes in small little local outlets of people feeling that way.
	But in the main, most people are coming to have different thoughts about this and are coming to acknowledge their own experiences.
	I would agree entirely.
	And it's almost like a snowball effect.
	And the more that people ask acknowledging these experiences and the more we're getting people who are brave enough to speak about their own experiences.
	And just like you said when you did the Zoom sessions, I bet everybody from all walks of life, you know, they've all got a little cameo of an event that they can't explain that they don't really want to talk about for that very reason.
	You know?
	Well, you know all about this because we've discussed this not on the recordings before, that to tell your own story involves going the extra mile.
	And to tell all of your own story involves an awful lot of effort.
	And that's exactly what you've done in the book.
	I'm going to quote from you at the beginning of the book, okay?
	You say, and we have to say the book is not out yet.
	It's in the very, very final stages.
	It's been about a month.
	It's about a month from now.
	Okay.
	You say, before writing about these experiences, it felt as though I had been living a double life, a life in which I have been carrying a dark secret from childhood to the present day.
	Now, when we first talked about these things, and it was only a couple of months ago, and we've been talking for years, I was astonished.
	I didn't think that you had been an experiencer yourself.
	I thought that you were a documenter.
	So what I'm saying is it's taken an effort to put these things down, hasn't it?
	It really has.
	It's been difficult.
	And I honestly believed when I started writing it, Howard, that I would somehow remember more things because all I've got, I mean, some people who talk about the abduction phenomena, that's what we're going to call it, they can remember the full sequence of events and I can't.
	I've just got watered down.
	The cameos of events, if it's a 10-piece jigsaw for each scenario, I've got four pieces and none of them fit.
	It's almost as though you have some kind of amnesia and then you jump to the next bit of the story.
	It's so strange.
	I wish I could remember more.
	Apart from probably two things within the entire book, I didn't remember anything more and there were no great revelations.
	My story's not changed.
	I just needed, I wanted to document it and just get it down.
	Obviously, it's involved some members of my family as well, and I've changed their names and, you know, just to protect them, obviously.
	yeah, but we have to say it is interesting that the whole family of points in the book, you know, they all have an outing.
	They're all kind of in their own ways involved.
	You wanted me to talk, okay, let's get into it.
	And I've got a whole list of stuff that I've picked out.
	But you wanted me to talk about Christmas 1970.
	What happened then?
	Well, that is going to be the opening chapter, but then we jump back to probably 1966.
	But 1970 is, obviously, I was living at home with my mum and dad in the little village of Old Deneby.
	And at Christmas time, my mum and dad were members of a club called Dale and Brown Sports Club in Swinton, which would have been about four miles away.
	And wonderful memories at Christmas.
	We had Christmas parties, obviously, and all children could go and sort of play out in dark and do all sorts of things you wouldn't be allowed to do today.
	But it was on the way home, New Year's Eve on the way home, that it sort of happened.
	And this is probably one of the only occasions I know my mum and dad saw them.
	So it was thick with snow, very, very cold, freezing night, and we were in high spirits.
	I can remember a little boy skating about with my dad and it's after midnight and it was just a bit, it was magical really.
	And we walked over the canal bridge at Mexborough and we went on over the River Don Bridge towards Old Denaby and our village.
	There's a set of crossings then, obviously no trains running and you know it's very quiet.
	We can hear us feet crunching underfoot and believe you me people, I can remember these things.
	I can remember running along River Don Bridge which is made of iron and it clanging and hearing water roaring below it.
	I've not dressed it up for the book.
	So I got to the crossings with my mum and dad and then you looked across at the village and there's the council houses where we used to live and the Rove Street lights.
	So we're nearly home and dry, half a mile, perhaps a little bit more.
	And to the right of us we've got the Yorkshire electricity with the YEB pond and to the left we've got open fields and it's sort of marshland, although like we said it was frozen.
	And we're just walking down from the crossings and that's when we saw them.
	I think my dad saw them first, and there was two rabbits, a black and white rabbit and a guinea pig.
	Now, I know your listeners are probably going to think, what's he on about?
	But that's what we saw.
	They were there.
	And obviously, I'd got, well, not obviously, but a young lad.
	I don't know how old I would have been, an eight or nine.
	And I wanted these puppets.
	I instantly looked at them and, oh, God, I'm going to take these home.
	I want them.
	But what were they doing there?
	What were they doing there in freezing snow?
	They didn't move.
	But my dad instantly said, don't look at them.
	Don't look at them.
	And I didn't know what they were on about.
	I couldn't understand it.
	And it was quiet.
	Everything had gone quiet.
	And the reason I'm saying that is you could hear the Don, the River Don roaring over the rocks, usually.
	But everything had gone quiet.
	And similar, these situations, and you'll have come across this, all people that you interview, they talk about this silence that enveloped things when strange things are happening.
	And my mum's saying, can you see them, Bob?
	My dad woke up.
	He's Robert, but they call him Bob.
	She says, can you see them, Bob?
	He says, I can see them.
	Yeah, just keep walking.
	And I can't understand this.
	I want these animals.
	I've got a big rabbit cage at home.
	We're rabbiting it.
	I'm taking them.
	That's what were in my mind.
	Anyhow, my mum suddenly just grabbed my arm and sort of dragged me.
	And my dad's telling her not to look.
	Don't look.
	And as I looked back, I obviously knew exactly what they were looking at then.
	And there's two beings.
	There's two figures stood in the field on the left-hand side.
	They were naked.
	And I don't mean naked as in you could see any rude bits, shall we say.
	They were just naked, grey or dark, grey-looking, tall figures.
	Stood emaciatedly thin.
	Sounds like alien greys to me.
	Really.
	It really does.
	But they were tall.
	And I'd looked at them.
	I sort of gathered everything that I'd got to gather in my head just in seconds because they were literally dragging me along the floor.
	I realised then, and then my dad's just telling her not to look.
	Don't look.
	Now, my dad, he weren't the kind of man who would be frightened of things.
	He just weren't.
	And he were frightened.
	I know he were frightened.
	We got home.
	I can't remember much about what happened after that.
	I know that one of the neighbours came round a few days later or end up sat talking to my mum.
	And her son, and I'd love to trace this guy, and the surname was Stimson, her son saw the rabbits and the guinea pig because I can remember them talking about it.
	But my mum and dad never told her about seeing those beings.
	And they told me that they were ghosts.
	Every time I asked them, they said they were ghosts and don't think about them or she'll have bad dreams.
	That's all they would say.
	And in later years, they'd never speak about them.
	But of course, if you're a kid and you get told not to think about something or not to dwell on it, what do you do?
	You do dwell on it.
	You do dwell on it.
	But you know, Howard, I knew, I already knew what the, not what they were.
	That'd be silly.
	I was a little boy.
	I'd seen them before.
	These are the reasons the book's titled The Night People.
	These are the things that I'd seen in my bedroom.
	And it's a terrifying thing.
	And it's a horrible truth to tell because you're desperate to tell.
	to tell the truth but at the same time you realize that your truth is not going to be accepted by the vast majority of people i know we've got the the the people that are interested in it and they're going to want to listen to the stories but you're all just going to get it it's i don't know when this stigma is ever going to break we i suppose it will howard when when we actually get some some better proof than what i've Managed to get and people far better than myself.
	But your experiences, like many people's experiences, developed in a progression.
	You start by talking about, um, I see eyes in the curtains, looking across the room, seeing eyes, and then those eyes move, and then it becomes other things.
	Well, that's correct.
	First of all, I'll not dwell on this story because we've done it before.
	This was the moon on the rooftops, as I'd call it in the book.
	And I think it started from that night, and there was a big sphere of light near the Mexborough power station.
	And we, as I say, we looked from my bedroom window towards Mexborough, and you could see the entire length of Mexborough, and it ran into Swinton.
	And I've got to say that there's a fantastic cartoon.
	It's you and your dad standing there looking out the window, isn't it?
	That's correct.
	Yeah, I've done all illustrations for Book as well, Howard.
	Very good.
	And yeah, so after that night, I don't mean something happened.
	A child ain't going to document anything and I weren't the sharpest tool in the box when it came to writing anyway.
	So, you know, I really weren't.
	So I wouldn't have a diary of events.
	But sometime after that, I remember waking up in the night and looking at these eyes in curtains and likening them to cow's eyes because that was my only point of reference, you know, limited life experience.
	And there's cows in pasture at back and they looked as big as cow's eyes.
	But they were coming in and out of focus and then they came out of the curtains.
	And they were, I wouldn't say those, those beings that we saw in 1970, but very similar.
	Well, they were smaller ones as well.
	There were two tall ones in one cameo of an event, shall we say.
	And then they were taller ones.
	I might seem like I'm talking about this fluently, Howard.
	And that's only because I've been writing about it non-stop.
	Once you start recalling, it's amazing what comes out, I think.
	But it's difficult to talk about, Howard.
	You know, I don't know why.
	I don't know why.
	But it's difficult to talk about.
	But I'm here and I'm happy to talk about it.
	Let's put it that way.
	And this develops, doesn't it, into what you call in the book, Nights of Fear?
	Oh, the Nights of Fear, yeah.
	I mean, there's so many things.
	I mean, there's so many things happened.
	I wet the bed until I was 13 or 14 years old because I would not leave the bedroom once I'd gone to bed on a night.
	Which was silly because the things that were happening were happening in the room.
	But I just, I'd gather the cover up in my bed and get into like a knotted ball.
	And if I could have climbed through wall and got as tight into wall as I could, I would have done.
	I was that frightened on a night.
	And that was the reason I could have easily just used the bathroom, but I just daren't leave the room.
	And you'd feel the sensation of the bed go down.
	That was the, this is when you're not seeing what we've called the night people.
	And whatever it was, it would slowly just move its way up the bed almost like a blanket of lead.
	It sounds weird.
	Because it had enveloped you until it was on your shoulder and then it had start speaking to you.
	And it was just terrifying.
	And it were a language I didn't understand.
	It were a slow motion, foreign language.
	And I don't know what language, I mean, and I still don't.
	And you're sure, look, I can remember when I was a little kid having a terrible nightmare.
	These were an episode of Doctor Who on the TV, worst nightmare I've had in my life.
	You're sure that this isn't something like that?
	No, not nightmares, Howard.
	You know, I mean, I know people are going to turn around and say, well, he's just had bad dreams and he's got a vivid imagination.
	But no, I was wide awake when these things were happening.
	I was wide awake on that Christmas, on that New Year's Eve when we stood on Ferrybolt Lane, looking across at those beings stood in the field.
	Do you know what I mean?
	I don't know how else to explain it.
	So when you're very young, you accept things that you see.
	When you're a little bit older, you then start asking the question that as adults we ask, but you start asking these things quite young.
	Why is this happening to me?
	Yeah, that's true.
	And I didn't know, and I didn't have anybody to turn to.
	I didn't have nobody I could speak to.
	And you become almost conditioned to it.
	It's abuse in a way, but it's an abuse.
	It's a mental kind of torture that you, and you can't, you've nobody to speak to about it.
	And you haven't got the vocabulary to describe what's happening.
	If you described the beings and said things like that, I'd be told I've got imaginary friends, perhaps, you know?
	I don't know.
	It's difficult.
	I said I was talking fluent and I'm probably not talking as fluent because...
	At any point, did you get the feeling that something was wanting to communicate with you, trying to get a message across?
	It was fear.
	Everything that they wanted to get across was fear-based.
	I felt immense fear.
	I remember waking up once and they were there.
	And I was screaming, but I couldn't make a sound.
	But everything was amplified.
	My hands felt, sounds silly.
	My hands felt huge and my legs felt huge.
	And I could feel the tears running down the sides of my face.
	But at the same time, it felt like my body was running like a perfect clock, almost as though life was entering and leaving my body.
	It's difficult when your arm goes numb, excuse me, and after an hour or so, and then you feel the blood come back into the veins, the sort of that feeling, it was like that and all over my body.
	And these things are observing you and there's some process happening as a child and I don't know what it was.
	I believe it might have been to do with blood, but it's only an assumption.
	It's only a weak theory.
	I have no proof.
	And I just don't know.
	Did anybody, presumably, I don't know if you did, did you talk to your parents about this?
	Only in later years, not at the time.
	You couldn't talk to my dad.
	I used to be terrified to get up in the morning.
	Because he was a big sceptic, wasn't he, about anything like that?
	He was a sceptic, but I was frightened to get up in the morning because I was hoping he'd gone to work before I got up because he would smack me for wetting the bed.
	And I didn't tell him because he wouldn't have believed me.
	So you were not able to go.
	And you were not getting any.
	None at all.
	And don't forget, Howard, this is just a modest three-bedroom, semi-detached council house in Old Deneby.
	All this was happening within inches of their room, if you want, if my bed's at the side of the wall and their bed's at the other side.
	All this is happening within inches of their room, yet they were totally oblivious to any of the things that had happened, or I believe they were.
	There's a chapter in the book from 2006.
	My dad suffered with pulmonary lung disease.
	Oh, yes, I read that.
	I mean, very sadly, your dad had COPD, didn't he?
	That's correct, yeah.
	And so he'd got oxygen and he struggled to speak even.
	And he never believed any of this stuff until that point.
	Well, they were in a side room at Bridlington Hospital, and I used to go every night and spend half an hour with him.
	And I went this particular night, and my mum says, your dad wants to speak to you.
	She says, on your own, without me.
	I said, what do you mean?
	Because she would never have left his side.
	And she says, he's got something to tell you.
	And he wouldn't tell her what he wanted to tell me.
	So anyway, I get in the room and he said, the aliens came last night.
	His words.
	And I said, what do you mean?
	The aliens came.
	He says, I don't.
	He says, they came.
	They spoke to me.
	He says, they told me everything were going to be all right.
	And now I do realise, listeners, that this could be my dad's medication.
	But it was so unusual for him to come out with something like this.
	He said they spoke to him about lots of things, things he couldn't remember.
	They spoke to him about me, and he doesn't know, he couldn't remember what they said.
	I'd love to have a story that I could add to the book and say that, oh, they said this, we're going to add all that, but they didn't.
	So that was unusual.
	I mean, he passed away a few days after that.
	I mean, believe me, I wouldn't be writing something like that if it weren't true to being told, Howard, you know?
	And he was somebody who didn't believe in anything like that.
	Oh, no, he was just straight John Bull.
	You know, a spade's a spade and this is my way or no way.
	And that's how you were with my dad.
	He weren't an easy man to live with, to be honest with you.
	Was your childhood unhappy, Paul?
	I would have thought so, yeah.
	As regards, you know, obviously you love your parents, don't you?
	And I weren't looking for imaginary friends, but he didn't give me much, pay much attention to me as a child.
	And of course, some of that's to do with the generation that those people, you know, the things that they lived through, the hardships that they had.
	And some people, I mean, I had lovely parents who came through hard times, but they were always, you know, wonderful, warm, loving.
	But some people, they come through experiences like that and they're closed inside.
	I think that's it's made me opposite.
	You know, we've got four girls and, you know, I can't tell them I love how much I love them all the time I see them, you know, and grandkid children.
	But I mean, I don't think that's any reflection on the things that happened to me with these beings.
	I'd love to find out if anybody else were affected by this in the village of Old Deneby.
	But so far, I've not found anything.
	And I dearly would love somebody to come and say to me, you know, this happened to me or I can relate to what you're saying because I heard my father talking about a similar thing.
	But it's just not happened.
	And look, we have to say that there is much more to all of this than just, and I say just, it's a big deal, but you lying in bed and being assailed and communicated with by these creatures.
	Experiences began to follow you around, really.
	Be with you always.
	There was the story of a strange woman who you saw near the local blacksmiths a little later.
	That's correct.
	Yeah, shopping days.
	I think the supermarket, we're going back a lot of years now, listeners, so some of you won't know this, but if you can remember Hillard's, we're big chain, I remember them.
	Well, we used to have to walk from old Denaby, the same route from Christmas Eve 1970, into the town of Mexborough, carry the shopping back.
	But there was an old blacksmith's on the corner of Quarry Street.
	It used to belong to a guy called, well, it used to belong to the Shaws, but it was empty.
	It was disused.
	It had been disused for years.
	It was a big old sort of brick and sandstone building.
	And it had some stones jutting out from the front.
	And I imagine the farrier used to sort of use them to aid him when he was shoeing horses and that in days gone by.
	And we're walking along Church Street.
	The blacksmith's on Church Street, but just on the corner of Quarry Street.
	And my mum's, I'm sort of dragging my feet, kicking leaves in the air and doing what I'm, what young boys do, you know, just don't want to really be in Mexborough.
	And I climb on the stones.
	That were my thing.
	Every time I got there, I jumped on these stones.
	Well, I looked into the blacksmith's shop.
	It was boarded up, but there was some boarding ripped away in one of the corners.
	And inside the shop, inside the workshop, there was a glowing kiln.
	There was a green leather sofa.
	Once again, doesn't fit, does it, people?
	And there was an old lady stood some distance away.
	And she looked, she turned and looked at me and walked towards me.
	So she was aware of me.
	I mean, once again, Howard, we're not sleeping here.
	These aren't dreams.
	She walks towards me and I'm shouting to my mum, mum, come, come, quick, look, look, there's somebody in here.
	It's all boarded up.
	And she came right up to the window.
	So we're only inches apart.
	And she had wire-immed glasses on.
	I can remember that.
	And grey hair.
	And I'm assuming a pin through it or something.
	I don't know, very frail old lady.
	And she just looked at me.
	And I couldn't get my mum to come.
	She were going shopping.
	She's, that's it.
	And eventually I had to go.
	And I left this old lady and went and did my shopping.
	And I'm talking about it all the way back.
	Cannot wait to show her this inside the blacksmith with the kiln, jumps on the stones.
	And we can't have been more than a hat than one hour.
	There's no kiln, there's no old lady, and there's no green leather sofa in this blacksmith's shop.
	Now, I can see this, I can see this as clear as day in my mind from all those years ago.
	And interestingly, the green leather sofa is what my gran was not the one, but very similar to what my nan had in her home at Cunnisborough.
	The old lady looked like somebody called Maisie Harrison, who used to work, sorry, who was the sister of the garage where my dad worked.
	All strange things that shouldn't have been there.
	Either I'm imagining things and I've been eating mushrooms.
	Or do you know what I'm saying?
	But these things, I saw them.
	I definitely saw them.
	Another interesting coincidence is that the blacksmiths was on the corner of Quarry Street.
	On the other corner, literally 30 feet away, was a row of cottages.
	The corner cottage is where I was born on Church Street.
	So, and, you know, obviously all the things that happened to me, I never experienced anything happening on Church Street.
	We moved shortly after that to Old Deneby, the little village.
	But it's weird how all those things sort of came together.
	Now, I'll never know what the significance or what the point of seeing that old lady was.
	Well, it sounds like somehow you or she or both of you were catapulted back in time.
	Possibly, Howard.
	It's just but so many things, Howard, didn't fit.
	You know, you wouldn't have a green leather sofa in a blacksmith's shop.
	So you were seeing elements, presumably, and we can only assume, of the past of that building, the development of that building through time.
	Well, I don't know.
	I really don't know that didn't necessarily belong together.
	Now, you tell another story about this one really did send the chills down my spine, about a dark man that you saw in the woods standing on top of the rock, staring down at us.
	You say, the most peculiar-looking man dressed in a black suit and shiny black shoes.
	His sudden appearance surprised me so much, and you can fill in the circumstances.
	I almost fell backwards.
	I had no idea where he came from.
	He was just there looking down at me and Joanne.
	Something instantly told me it was a bad situation.
	We had to get away.
	Scary story.
	Yeah, well, I've changed Joanne.
	Joanne's the name I'm using in the book because I haven't asked if I could use a real name.
	But it's another true story.
	We weren't allowed in old Deneby Woods.
	We were at the age where we didn't need to be monitored by as parents quite as much.
	I can't remember.
	So what's that?
	10, 11 or so, whatever.
	Yeah, you know, and so we could basically summer holidays.
	We could sort of move about the village and, I don't know, go play at friends' houses and go onto fields playing football or whatever we did, but we weren't allowed in old Denaby Woods, those bluebell woods, as it was called.
	But this particular day, as children do, we went into the woods and me and Joanne, we went up the steep hill up towards the woods.
	And there was a few bomb craters in the woods as well.
	It's all landscaped out of recognition now, but they were full of bracken and it were quite a dense wood.
	Not massive mature trees, but you know, low trees, but quite dense.
	And we settled in front of this huge slab of sandstone.
	You know, I don't know, it looked about, to our eyes, it looked like a cliff face.
	It were probably only about five or six foot by five or six foot.
	And me and Joanne, we started like some imaginary game.
	We were building little stick houses lent off the cliff face and pretending that elves and fairies lived in it.
	Just doing things what children do.
	I mean, obviously today's children would be on a computer game, but different world back in 1960s and 70s.
	And that's what we were doing.
	And I don't know, I didn't notice any strange silence in this, but I just happened to look up and there's a man stood on top of the rock and his arms are splayed out like a gunslinger.
	He's got a black suit on, shiny black shoes, and his eyes are going from side to side and he's very pale and he's just staring down at us.
	He didn't belong in those woods, not in a suit and sort of good quality shoes like that or very polished shoes.
	And like you've just said, Howard, I did nearly fall backwards.
	I couldn't believe it.
	So I said to Joanne, I said, look, look, run, run.
	And she didn't really take any notice of me.
	And I were over the wooden fence and stood in the field at the edge of the woods before she'd actually realized.
	And I've always felt a bit guilty about that, I must admit, but we were only children.
	And she sort of looked up and she got away.
	Then we were watching him from Edgett Wood Fence, a three-bar wood fence.
	And he's just stood there, just like a mannequin, looking at us.
	Never moved.
	We ran.
	And we told as mums and dads, the women of the village, it was something like from one of these Frankenstein movies.
	They didn't have pitchforks, but they all went into the woods looking for this guy.
	Could he have escaped from a prison or something?
	It's possible.
	I mean, I really don't know.
	I mean, you know, I were a child, so I could be attaching more to it than there actually was.
	But that's the story.
	And interestingly, we had a family reunion about five years ago.
	And me and Joanne had not seen each other for, oh, well over 20 years going on.
	And do you know the first thing that she said to me?
	Do you remember that strange man in the wood and running away?
	That was the very first thing that she said.
	So it had obviously imprinted in her mind.
	And what was he doing in Blue Bell Woods?
	Yeah, just another strange story.
	I mean, obviously, listeners, we can't attribute everything in everybody's life to some unexplained, some paranormal event.
	But they leave questions that last your whole life long.
	I've told you Before, and I've told my listener before, about when I was with my grandmother going to the fair in Southport, which everybody from Liverpool did, you know, on a summer's day, and everybody would go back together to get the train from Southport that ran all the way down through Waterloo and Bootle and into central Liverpool.
	And on that exodus of people from the fair to the train, my grandmother said to me, don't look, don't look.
	And I've told this story before, so keep it short.
	But there was a guy who had the legs of like a deer and cloven hooves.
	And his face was like that of, was a little bit like a hybrid of a person and some kind of animal like a deer.
	I will never forget it because I'm never going to know what that was, but I know what I saw.
	And he looked at me with those eyes that animals have.
	He was wearing an overcoat.
	This sounds bizarre.
	But I was 11 or 12.
	And I will never be able to explain that.
	And like your experiences, I have to carry those through my life.
	And my grandmother's not here to talk to about it.
	She knows about it.
	In fact, her photograph is just above me here at the moment.
	But that's why we come back to where we started.
	I think a lot of people have these experiences.
	You've had more of them than most.
	I mean, look, these experiences that you had continued into the 70s.
	talk 1975 about seeing this in a field thin silver erratically moving tube that's that's Oh, yes, got it.
	Almost like a kind of UFO.
	I mean, this thing was as long as like a drain pipe or something.
	That's correct.
	I thought it was like a pencil.
	It was like a silver pencil.
	And once again, I'm looking out of the bedroom window and I can see some fr.
	I spent a lot of time at a small holding down old Denaby.
	I'll not mention the family's name, but they were very good to me.
	And a lot of my teenage years I spent with this family.
	And it's getting towards dusk and I'm looking through my bedroom window.
	So I could see the husband and the wife and their young son, who I know now and I knew them would have been in bed.
	So it couldn't have been him.
	But at the time, Howard, you're just trying to digest as much information as you can.
	You don't realize that something bizarre is happening usually until after it's happened.
	I hope that makes sense to people.
	But I'm looking down and I can see them.
	And first of all, I'd seen this thing like a, almost like a dragonfly zipping across the water, like a telegraph pole kind of length, but silver.
	I couldn't see it.
	There'd been heavy rains and the River Don had burst its banks and it had flooded the flood plain.
	This is in the similar area to where we saw the beings.
	And I'm watching that and then suddenly I can see this couple and their son stood again, this thin silver tube.
	I could even see their dog, Fred.
	And there was a barrack there, a wheelbarrow.
	Well, this guy went everywhere because he had a small holding and he would horse.
	So everything that I was familiar with were placed into that situation, but it couldn't have been there.
	And then the next thing, and it's so disjointed, these stories, listeners, I do apologise.
	And the next thing, I saw a huge white owl lifting up.
	And it was down in the bottom where the floodplain was.
	But the unusual thing was I could see its eyes as clear as anything.
	Bright orange-yellow eyes.
	And just another bizarre story, Howard.
	Yeah, I've not forgot about this story, listeners.
	I'm just, there's that many in the book.
	I was about to say that.
	I mean, this book, and I don't want to spoil all the stories, we could never get to them all anyway, because there's so much in this book.
	Not only are your illustrations lovely, and they really do add to it, but the detail in here is amazing.
	Let's fast forward now.
	I'm going to have to cherry-pick here.
	But you were taking your dog.
	You had a dog called Bronson.
	Presumably named after Charles Bronson, the movie.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Look like him.
	Out for a walk.
	And the pair of you were followed by like an orb or a light.
	Well, he would a good dog.
	He would a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, but all my dogs, any dog we've had, they've always been friendly.
	I know people have a they have a reputation, but I could let him off the lead.
	And the point I'm getting at is it'll make sense in a moment.
	We parked my car.
	We lived in Edlington at the time.
	And I parked my car at what was called the Welfare Club.
	And I'd walk onto a disused railway line.
	Now, the side of the railway line went for miles and miles, and it had created a little haven for wildlife.
	It really was.
	And then I'd go under a bridge, a tunnel, should I say, I don't know, a mile in the distance, and then come back the other way.
	Well, this particular night after work, I'm walking down with Bronson.
	I just let him go.
	If he met another dog, it wouldn't hurt him.
	It just weren't that nature.
	So I weren't worried.
	And I'm just walking along, and it's before I got to the bridge.
	And he stood.
	He sort of stood rigid, looking at something.
	And I'm sort of, I don't know.
	I know he's seen something.
	I know there's something unusual.
	He was that relaxed.
	If it were a person, he'd have gone up to him or another dog, he'd have gone up trying to fuss him, but he wouldn't.
	And we stood looking and I'm trying to work out what it could be.
	And can I see someone?
	Can't I see someone?
	Am I imagining it?
	And eventually we carried on walking.
	But we dwelled too long there.
	And I don't normally come back that way in the dark.
	And I went under the bridge, through the tunnel, and I'm back the other way.
	And that's when I saw it.
	There was a blue sphere of light.
	And we'd got about a mile to walk.
	And this thing, these trees were quite dense.
	But this thing was just moving through the trees as though, well, it weren't structured.
	It must have just been light.
	A blue ball of light.
	It was below the treetops.
	And I followed it.
	And I kept, every time I sort of stopped, it stopped.
	And the dog didn't seem too bothered.
	You know, the dog's sort of just walking a little Bit more in front of me, and then in the end, I decided to climb up the bank.
	I got scratched and all sorts through brambles because I came out a different way to what I normally would because I wanted to look over the top.
	Bearing in mind, I'm not thinking anything paranormal in nature here.
	I'm thinking there's got to be some person here, even though I can see it move gliding through the trees, whatever it is.
	I'm still thinking it's a torch beam.
	I'm still trying to look for the rational.
	And I get to the top, and it's definitely below the tree canopy.
	So, if you can picture a railway bank, I know they all vary, but you know, these trees are only about 20 to 30 foot high.
	And I can see it down in the trees, and it's just moving about slowly in the trees.
	And it just literally moving through the undergrowth, moving through the thick trees.
	Just an unexplained occurrence that's added in the book.
	Nothing happened, as far as I know, to me, just something that I saw.
	I mean, I also think, Howard, you know, I'm researching, I'm speaking to people all the time, just like you are.
	The more you look, the more you see, the more open you become to it.
	I mean, a dustbin's open.
	You could collect all sorts of rubbish and believe anything.
	And I don't want to be that kind of person.
	I can only deal with what I've seen and experienced myself and hope from those experiences that when I'm speaking to people, I can gauge whether I'm getting the truth.
	And the lights, I mean, we haven't got tons of time to talk about that, but one of the things that emerged, I seem to remember from our conversations about the animal mutilations that you've been investigating.
	Weren't some of those accompanied by lights that appeared to float at some point?
	Or is that another incident?
	No, I've never seen the lights in conjunction with the animals, but we have seen the lights, should we say, days before, days after.
	These are the orange spheres of light that we've seen over the sea and around the cliff tops.
	But, I mean, I've got an amazing cryptid report that I got from, due to the lockdown, we've not really been out.
	And myself and Bob Brown, we went last week, we went onto the cliff tops.
	And I'm glad Bob were with me, otherwise nobody would have believed this story.
	And if you want me to tell it, you're just to jump from the book slightly, Howard.
	Okay, why don't we tell it?
	And then I've got one more bit from the book to do and then some listener questions.
	How about that?
	I'll run through it fairly quick then.
	I need to stress that Bob Brown lives in our top flat.
	So we're not breaking lockdown rules.
	I see him every day.
	It's a communal garden.
	So that's how we got to it.
	So me and Bob go to the cliff tops at Bempton.
	I think it was last Monday.
	Not this one gone.
	So I set up cameras and doing his own thing.
	There's nobody about.
	30 minutes later, a guy walks down with a dog, a pointer dog, and big, big tall fella.
	And he says, evening, boys.
	You know, enjoying your bit of fresh air.
	We said, yes.
	And he walks off towards Flamborough.
	Now, I'm rushing this story, listeners, because for now I would want to get a few more bits in.
	An hour later, he arrives back.
	He's done his walk and he's got the dog.
	And he said, had we seen the sea eagle?
	And we told him we hadn't, but we knew there would be one reported.
	And he asked us if we were there looking at the Gannett colony.
	Well, I don't tell everybody what we're looking for.
	So I was quite reluctant, but he was friendly enough.
	And I said, look, I said, you'll probably not be interested in what we're looking for, but we're trying to film the unusual lights over the sea.
	So this guy says, I've lived here over 30 years and I've never seen anything.
	He says, and some of my windows overlook the sea.
	And he lived in Reeton, about should be about four miles away.
	So he'd come for a walk, he'd driven four miles.
	He said he goes all over with this dog.
	Unusual dog as well.
	They're not just a pointer, it were a certain breed of pointer.
	Anyway, back to my story.
	He'd not seen the lights.
	He was quite interested.
	He weren't condescending.
	He were okay.
	And then just as he's leaving, luckily, Bob said, what about, have you seen any unusual animals?
	He went, well, what do you mean?
	He said, have you seen the black cat that people report seeing?
	So with this, he tells his dog to sit down.
	And he says, well, he said, I'm going to tell you something.
	He said, and I haven't told my wife.
	He says, I've not told anybody, in fact.
	He said, but you're up here and you've asked me if I've seen anything unusual.
	He said, and I'm 60 years old.
	He says, and I've only ever seen one unusual thing in my life.
	He said, and this is it.
	So he tells the story.
	He says, it was November 2019.
	So it's last year.
	He parked his car at Reeton.
	And from his car, it proceeded to walk along the bottom of the cliffs from Reeton to Speaton.
	You know, and it sort of goes up in a gradient from a gentle slope to a steep slope to a 400-foot sheer drop.
	Well, he's looking at the gentle slope and there's a three-bar wooden fence there.
	He says, and this dog's clever.
	He said, if he sees a pheasant, he'll stand in a different position to how he stands when he sees a rabbit.
	He says, I understand him.
	He said, but he stood rigid.
	He said, I'm thinking, what are you looking at, dog?
	What are you looking at?
	He says, and the dog didn't move.
	He says, and it were an unusual.
	It were different.
	He says, and I look up the field.
	He said, there's a full moon, listeners.
	And I did say, are you sure it weren't the day before or the day after?
	It was a full moon.
	So from that, we can deduct it was November the 12th.
	Because I went and checked afterwards.
	So anyway, he said, I could see something and its back was level with the three-bar fence.
	So I'm thinking, what the hell is that?
	Has somebody lost a pony?
	Or what could it be?
	It's a big animal.
	It looks too tall for a deer.
	So he said, the next thing, it stands on two legs.
	He said, and it's a dog's head.
	It's thin.
	It's not muscular.
	It's not bulky or full of muscle.
	He said, and it turned and looked at us.
	He says, now we're about 250 foot away.
	He said, but there was a full moon.
	He said, so I couldn't see its eyes, but I could see the full form of this thing.
	And he said, and it was tall.
	Well, I looked at this guy, and I'm so pleased, Bob, will there to verify everything I'm saying now.
	And I went, and how tall are you?
	About 6'6.
	And he went, you're spot on.
	I'm 6'6.
	He says, this thing were about a foot taller than me.
	It looked at us, and then it turned its head, and it just ran on two legs up over the cliffs.
	Now, these stories, that's the story, listeners, and I can make it a little bit more elaborate, but times are limited.
	In America, they call that the dog man.
	Yeah.
	But Howard, these stories, I'm Getting more and more of these stories.
	Now, whether these things are being seen more, whether it's the fact that people are more open to the idea that they don't mind talking about it, I don't know.
	I've said before, it's not something I would ever have thought of looking into.
	This really wouldn't.
	But when you've got people like that stepping forward and telling you these, we didn't ask him for any of this.
	He didn't come looking for us.
	And there's got to be some reality, some truth to these things.
	Well, yes.
	And that goes back again to that point that everybody's got a story.
	It's just a question of getting that story from them.
	And that is astonishing.
	And that very much speaks to the dogman phenomenon that we've talked about in the United States.
	Back to the book.
	One more story.
	And it is maybe the most astonishing one in the book.
	But there are loads, which is why people hearing this when the book's out, they've got to buy it.
	The burns or the doctors called them lesions that appeared on your back that they could not explain.
	Yeah, this one 1997.
	And I got the medical records for my life.
	They're not, you know, bought and they weren't expensive.
	I think anybody can do that.
	And so it was 1997 that this happened.
	And we'd been out for night, me and Mary, we'd been out for something to eat and a few drinks, but by no means what I'd drunk.
	And obviously in bed, and at one point during the night, I can remember waking up and seeing lights turning on the bedroom wall in front of me.
	I'm looking at these lights.
	And almost like as if a car had turned round in a cul-de-sac and swept across the wall.
	But there's no cars.
	There's no cul-de-sac behind at the back of our house.
	But that kind of thing.
	And they were moving backwards and forwards and swirling.
	So, you know, instantly you can think to yourself, well, could somebody have had a torch outside and been doing it?
	I suppose so.
	But in and out of these lights, I could see them.
	Not a dream.
	The dreams don't leave marks like bullet holes in your back.
	And they were all just like in childhood, it was in and out of focus.
	And I could see these things.
	And next thing, they're around me.
	They're around me.
	But the strange thing is I were in bed with my wife, but they're at either side of me.
	So, but I'm still being told I'm in bed.
	And that's the difficulty with these scenarios because they're somehow overlaying whatever you're thinking.
	I don't know how it works, but they were telling me that a bedspring were turning in my back.
	Not to worry, there's a bedspring turning in your back.
	And that's the message I was getting.
	But the pain was so severe.
	I don't think that whatever they were doing, they could hold me in that state because the pain was just incredible.
	Something was inside my back.
	I don't know what it was.
	And I don't know whether I blacked out.
	I don't know what happened.
	But the next morning, I'd forgot all about it until I sort of sat on the edge of the bed.
	And Mary, I don't know, she must have just turned over and then she just went, oh, Paul.
	I said, what?
	She says, I don't believe it.
	She says, you've got three holes in your back.
	My lord.
	And luckily, you know, the Polaroid Instomatic camera, she took a picture.
	Not a great quality picture, but I've put it in the book.
	I don't know whether it were in that copy, the document, Howard.
	I think in the version I had, it was to be in.
	No, no, it was there.
	You're right.
	I did see it.
	Yes, yes, yes.
	And obviously, I went to the doctors.
	I've been going to the doctors since 1994.
	I don't mean every week, but certainly on a regular basis, like every three to six months, because these punch hole lesions were appearing in my skin, on my arms and on various parts of my body.
	A lot of them have healed, and you can't tell unless you get some sun on your skin, and then they stay white.
	But there's some of them I'm looking at now on my arms that will be there forever, and those on my back.
	And it's interesting reading the medical notes where the doctors are saying, does this man have a history of trauma?
	And when you go to the hospital and you're speaking to the, what do they call the guy, not the dermatologist, but the skin expert.
	Yeah, well, that is, I think that's a dermatologist.
	Is that what it is?
	And he's looking at me as though, I don't tell him.
	I don't tell him.
	How could you say, well, you know, Mr. Sinclair, these wounds extend deep into your back.
	And if they'd have hit anything fatal, anything, a major organ, it would have been fatal.
	Now, do you want to tell us who's done this?
	Because you could not have inflicted these.
	I couldn't reach around to where they are anyway, but who's done these wounds on your back?
	And what do I say?
	And they know you're lying.
	These people, I mean, they knew I was lying, but they obviously, the last thing on their mind were what I saw and what I believe happened.
	In their head, somebody did this to me.
	Somebody got something, I don't know, as round as a cigarette or a steel tube, got it red-hot and plunged it into my back because they were healed.
	They were cauterized around the edges.
	So they thought you'd been almost tortured by somebody?
	Without a doubt.
	I mean, and, you know, the word in the medical notes, you know, where they're saying, does this man have a history of trauma and things like that?
	And there's quite a lot of paperwork about these punch holes.
	I think you include a letter to your doctor, I think, from the hospital.
	Trust me.
	A letter from the doctor asking basically what I've just been saying.
	There's a drawing done by the doctor of my back as I presented it that day.
	You know, and at the end of all these letters, and I think the doctor, I'll not say his name, I think he's passed away now anyway, but I'll not say his name, but he says, I think we will have to draw a blank with Mr. Sinclair's Punch Hole Lesions.
	And that's exactly how they left it.
	They don't know.
	They don't know.
	And I obviously, I don't, I just daren't say what will happen.
	And here I am now, sat writing night people and telling anyone who's going to be listening what I believe happened.
	But why should I lie?
	Why should I lie?
	Because there's Such a stigma attached to this, Howard.
	But I'm not going to lie anymore.
	That's what happened, and I can't change things.
	Well, I'm glad that you've shared your story.
	I think it is going to be required reading, and I know that you were a little trepidatious about actually doing this because it's something different for you.
	But I'm glad that you did.
	Now, I've got some questions from listeners, and I wonder if we can crack through these quite quickly because otherwise this is going to be the longest podcast known to man.
	Richard in Burnley says he'd like to ask Paul if he's had any more experiences with the bringing down the light man that he's talked about in his books.
	No, none at all.
	It's a question that's asked quite a lot.
	So I'm sorry it's a short, sharp answer, but no, apart from that one incident, never since.
	Okay.
	So, Richard, that's for you.
	This is Frank, who says, my wife's family are from Hull and had seen some strange things in that area.
	Have you got any, can you think of any stories?
	I think we fringed on that.
	We've certainly talked about Grimsby.
	Have you got stories from Hull?
	Yeah, and I think it was 2019, it may have been late 2018, that there were quite a surge in sightings around Hull and talk of a large stationary object, I think it was over Hedden, and jet aircraft, and that definitely what made the papers jet aircraft being launched to not necessarily intercept, that sounds like there's going to be conflict, but to look at whatever it was that were over Hull.
	So yeah, there are accounts from Hull encrypted sightings from Hull.
	I've got a few of those as well.
	I mean, once again, I'm looking around East Yorkshire, primarily Bempton, Speeton, Flamborough, and moving to North Yorkshire and Flixton.
	But I think that your area, Hull, there's going to be just as much happening.
	You just need somebody focused enough to start looking into it.
	Maybe you can.
	Right.
	Well, that's Frank in Essex, but his wife is from Hull.
	Thank you for that.
	Mark says, my question to Paul is that he hinted that he's got more than one story on the three men who experienced, and if you can explain what this was, something amazing at their workplace.
	We talked about this in the last conversation.
	Have you got any update about them and it?
	Well, no, I spoke to Andrew, real name, a few weeks ago when I were at the post office, actually, and we social distancing, but we spoke at length and I've told him I've got more questions for him.
	The Hummumby story is absolutely amazing.
	Can you sum it up in a sentence what happened?
	UFO landed.
	Matthew and March made July 1998 at the back of an industrial compound at Hummumby.
	It's astonishing, isn't it, that story?
	We talk about it more in the last conversation that we had, but what a story.
	Military involvement, roadblocks set up.
	The three men are all saying the same story all these years on, and they've not been in contact with each other.
	It were like a domino effect.
	I spoke to Andrew first, indirectly.
	He didn't want to talk about it, but he told the story to a friend of mine when they were working on a job.
	They told him to a military guy, Jim, and Jim instantly said, you must tell Paul.
	Strange that Andrew only lives about 200 yards away from me, and his son used to work with me, but he just didn't want to, he wanted the story to remain buried.
	It's just incredible.
	It is incredible.
	And you're hoping that you might be able to get, by the sounds of it, some more out of them about that.
	There's more to come.
	This story is massive because I said there's military involvement, alien beings.
	And what would the military be doing there?
	So Mark, thank you for that question.
	Mark also says he wants to say to you that you're a really dedicated researcher and he wishes you all the best for any books that you publish.
	So that's from Mark.
	Thank you, Mark.
	Simon in Aberdeen, if the lights that he sees over the coast are so frequent and consistent, why have they never been recorded on film?
	In fact, I think they have, haven't they?
	We've got them on film, Simon, and it's not that they're so frequent.
	I mean, me and Bob Brown can go up for six months and not see these lights.
	And I'm glad you've come up, you've said this.
	I'll try and be sort of concise with it.
	People think that things are happening in this area on a daily, nightly, weekly basis.
	And that's just not the case.
	These books are a collection of events that go back decades and decades.
	You know, go back 50, 60 years.
	So when you read it, you're reading all these reports, but you're actually getting a really packed lot of information that's spanning years.
	Yes, the area is capable of producing highly unusual phenomena, but not on a weekly or even a monthly basis.
	But it does happen.
	And you can occasionally record these things.
	I mean, this is not really a question to be answered.
	It's just a statement.
	Tony got in touch.
	Good question.
	Thank you.
	No, this is Tony who got in touch, which connects with this.
	And Tony says that he thinks that maybe the cliffs at Bempton themselves are the cause of this thing because they are, quotes, like a weird location, just as they stand.
	It could be right.
	You know, I got a report today jumping from Bempton from Duddleby Howe, the burial mound about 12 miles inland.
	You've got Willie Howe and you've got Duddleby Howe.
	And a couple on Monday, Lee, and I can't think of his wife's name, from their home they observed a silver disc low over the Howe.
	You know, so once again, locations, prime locations, are creating these weird events.
	And Bempton, as you've said, Speaton, Flamborough, it could be just a weird location.
	Boy, there's an awful lot more to do there.
	And when we're out of lockdown, if the weather's nice, I've got to come up.
	Okay, Gaz says, could you ask, and this is going to have to be a quick one, but could you ask if the animal mutilations or at least the appearance of carcasses of animals are ongoing now?
	A few months ago, I went into some woods close to where the mutilations were occurring, and I was finding crows with the heads removed.
	They didn't look like there were any predation On the carcass, other than the heads had gone.
	I'm not saying that someone explained phenomena is responsible for it, but that's the only thing because all the livestock's gone.
	There's no more livestock in those fields.
	Right.
	And one listener, and I've been trying to find this message and it's disappeared.
	I don't know what's going on with some of these messages.
	They vanish.
	But I'm doing this from memory.
	Basically said, if Bempton, the cliffs there, are such a popular location, which we know they are in summer and so many people go birdwatching there and whatever, why don't more people report phenomena?
	Great, great question.
	Yeah.
	And I think they do.
	I don't know if you can remember, Howard, but probably a few years ago, I said to you that I put a safe into the old RSPB building years ago.
	It's not there now, listeners.
	Anybody's all been revamped and done, but we had to work through the night.
	So the point I'm getting at is they left a member of staff with us while we worked on this job.
	And obviously, I'm into the unexplained phenomena and this guy's got hours to sit and talk with us.
	And he told us.
	He said, people do come in and report seeing unexplained phenomena, seeing strange things in sky.
	I'm not saying that that's on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, but he did.
	And I've also spoke to another operative from that place and he's seen a red sphere of light enter the sea.
	But he's not going to go talking about that.
	No, I've got you.
	So what we're basically saying is that we're only scratching the surface.
	There's an awful lot more.
	It's such a weird place.
	I think so.
	Paul, you are an absolute star.
	We've done, I think, what is my longest podcast to date.
	I love speaking with you.
	I'm delighted that you are doing so well.
	Now, the book is out, you say, in a month.
	Yeah, it's called Night People.
	Approximately a month, yeah.
	About a month.
	So we're looking back end of June, beginning of July, maybe.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, and it's called Night People.
	What are you working?
	You're always working on something.
	What are you working on after that?
	I'm starting another truth proof.
	I've already started because obviously I've got a fabulous assistance from a guy called Don Lodge and his wife who are editing it because my spelling and punctuation is atrocious.
	So I'm so grateful for these guys.
	And so whilst he's going through things and sending me things back to correct, I've started another truth proof.
	Nice one, Paul.
	Thank you so much for giving me your time.
	And, you know, I always wish you continued success, but even more so now.
	And, you know, in these weird days of lockdown, it's good that we can still do what we do, hey?
	It is.
	And thank you very much, Howard.
	Thank you, Paul.
	Boy, that was a big show.
	Paul Sinclair never disappoints.
	Your thoughts, please go to my website, theunexplained.tv, and please give me your thoughts or just shoot the breeze by email with me there.
	And it's always great to hear from you, especially two months into lockdown here in my humble and very hot place of abode at the moment.
	Okay, more great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained, so until next we meet.
	My name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained Online.
	And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
	And above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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