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May 16, 2020 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:08:32
Edition 454 - Richard C. Hoagland

A welcome return for Richard C. Hoagland - we talk Mars and much, much more...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
Well, I hope in the middle of it all, you're keeping well.
And maybe we can see light at the end of the tunnel as part of the United Kingdom slowly makes trepidatious steps to getting back to work.
We'll see how that plays out.
And of course, the scientists are going to be looking at the data.
And slowly but surely, hopefully we will edge forward.
But the most important thing is that we've all had a chance, most of us, to think about our lives.
And I certainly have thought about mine, and I'm not going to waffle on about it now.
But, you know, we've had time to think about our lives and maybe make some plans.
And certainly here in London, for just this pause in life, there's the chance to look up in the sky.
It's, well, it's now dark as I record this just about.
And, you know, the air's clear.
You see the stars and where the planes used to be.
You can see things out in space.
It is remarkable from that point of view.
But a lot of us, I think, are doing a lot of thinking about the way that we live, the way that we do our work and what work we want to do.
I think that's an interesting thing.
Thank you very much.
I've had some really excellent emails and very, very supportive.
Thank you so much for that.
I'm recording this in week seven, is it, of lockdown?
And every morning I get up, open up the emails and see who's been in touch.
And if you have something that you need me to reply about, of course, I'll make every effort to make sure that I get straight back to you.
So thank you very much.
And also thank you for supporting me during a run of radio shows that I did recently.
And I did them from the very place that I'm sitting now.
It was a great experience to do that, to be, you know, in an apartment in lockdown and connecting with the nation and people listening all over the world.
What a thing that is.
Anyway, guest on this edition, my great pleasure to reconnect after, well, nearly two years, about 18 months or so, with Richard C. Hoagland.
We're going to talk space and a lot of other stuff, but we'll also just kind of reconnect, I think.
So he's out in the desert, and I'm here in the silence of the London suburbs, and we'll make that connection in just a moment.
If you want to get in touch with me, please go to my website, theunexplained.tv, and you can follow the link and send me an email from there.
And if you'd like to give me a donation for the show to help it to continue, then there's a PayPal link there and you can do that.
And if you've done that recently, like Sharon did recently and many others, thank you so much for doing that.
Theunexplained.tv, designed and created by Adam from Creative Hotspot.
Okay, let's get to America now.
And our old friend Richard C. Hoagland is here.
We're going to talk space and a lot of other stuff.
Richard, thank you for coming back on my show.
Well, it's nice to be back, Howard.
It's been a long time.
How long has it been?
Well, I think the last time we talked together was probably something like 18 months or two years ago.
I mean, look, you know the time flies anyway.
So working those things out in your head is a problem, don't you think?
Well, a few things have happened to the planet since we last talked.
In case you haven't noticed, I presume you are sheltering in place there as we are here?
I am seven weeks as we are in the United Kingdom into the lockdown.
Some people are starting to go back to work as I speak, and there are problems with crowded public transport because they really shouldn't be standing so close to each other.
But many of them have no choice, so that's giving issues.
So some people are going back, and some of us are working remotely.
I've been doing radio shows from exactly my father's old TV watching leather chair that I'm sitting in right now.
I've been doing, I mean, for example, as we speak, I've just done three consecutive late shows across the UK, all from here.
And I've learned so many different things.
So to some degree, although in the nighttime when it's quiet and there's not another soul around apart from my immediate neighbours in the apartment complex here, I worry a lot about the future, about the impending recession that the government keeps telling us is coming.
They just won't tell us at the moment the size they think it'll be, which I think is going to be pretty enormous.
But those are the things that you worry about.
But like most of the UK, here I am.
I have, at least they've allowed us this week to do more exercise so we can go out for an unlimited amount of time as long as we keep socially distanced from other people.
And we can drive to go and do our exercise now, which we couldn't do a week ago.
This whole lockdown thing, I mean, I think it's a total misnomer because there are all kinds of exceptions.
Exercise.
You can take your dog out.
You don't have to have him do something in the living room.
Supermarkets, pharmacies, medical appointments, exercise.
And of course, you should say, you know, somewhat reasonably far apart.
I think six feet's a little too close.
Have you seen any of the laser videos on what happens when people sneeze and cough?
I've seen a couple of simulations, and it's a lot more than six feet.
Yeah.
So, and plus, the real danger is being in a closed space with no airflow because these tiny, tiny micron-sized particles to which the virus clings, they can hang in the air for hours and hours.
So if you're outside, you're totally safe.
Even in a supermarket, you know, I used to always get very cold in supermarkets because they have these giant fans up in the ceiling, these ventilation systems that are moving air, you know, thousands of cubic feet per hour.
So, you know, if you take any reasonable common sense precautions, don't get on subways.
That's a no-no.
Don't fly in airplanes.
No, no.
Your own car, fine.
So anyway, what I think is going to happen, and I saw this this morning, we're going to come out of this one way or the other, but there's going to be some very positive social changes.
Like I'm seeing now major corporations that are saying, because it's worked so well, that they want their employees now to telecommute to work from home.
We have found, if you look to the satellite imagery lately, we've found stunning improvements in the environment because all these commuters were not sitting two hours in an LA parking lot burning, you know, gasoline.
Oh, I get it.
You have to remember where I live.
And you know where I live because you've seen this area.
Yes.
Now, I'm by that very, very beautiful park and not a million miles away from Hampton Court, which, you know, we saw a few years ago.
But usually, at this time, we're recording this in the evening so that we can make the time zones work for us.
But usually there are probably 10 jets up there that I can see on their way to or from Heathrow Airport.
And all of them have trails in the sky.
And, you know, it's a little, even on a nice evening, and this is springtime here, there's a bit of fog there.
You know, there's a bit of haze there caused by all the pollution, atmospheric.
And the air has a sort of ozoney smell to it.
The air quality's been beautiful.
And I actually did something that I haven't done for a long time last week.
I stood in the car park area here where I live, and I just looked in awe at the moon.
And I was amazed with my naked eye.
My eyes are not as good as they used to be.
At the detail that I could see just standing there.
And I did something that probably the ancient, well, certainly the ancients did.
I stood and I was humbled by the magnitude of what I was looking at.
So those things have changed.
I think there's a kind of a visceral feeling, Howard, that this is an opportunity for what's been termed a planetary reset.
An awful lot of things that we took for granted in the, you know, over here, we call it the rat race.
People have been forced to stay at home and to think, to contemplate, to really get close to their families, to enjoy something that a lot of people, you know, forgot how to do, which is to have dinner all together, that kind of thing.
And the technologies we have, I know I have to smile when people talk about isolation because we've never lived in an era where isolation was more difficult to achieve.
I mean, I'm in the middle of a desert in the great American Southwest at about 6,000 feet.
I have a gorgeous view of the Sandillas, which tower up to about 12,000 feet above sea level.
It's a beautiful afternoon here in New Mexico, the land of enchantment.
But for me, life has not changed because this is where Robin and I wanted to be, you know, decades ago.
And, you know, it's like art broadcasting from Perump.
You know, our life has not changed, but for an awful lot of other people, their lives have looked different and it's given them time to realize that maybe they can keep some of the good things, like all these major corporations that are now sending out letters saying, for as many employees that wish to, we're going to support telecommuting.
We're going to support working from home.
And of course, that's going to change interior decoration.
It's going to change soundproofing.
People are going to have offices.
They're going to have schedules that are different.
I mean, there's a fundamental positive change from not sitting two hours in a major metropolitan parking lot, you know, called over here freeways, doing nothing except burning gasoline.
Well, listen, I agree with a lot of that, but there are economic imperatives too.
You know, not everybody works for an enlightened employer who will let you do that.
Not everybody works in an industry where you can do that.
So I think there are going to be different sectors of the population, those who are still out there and facing it, and those who can distance themselves a little bit in the literal sense and do their work from home or whatever.
So we have to be very careful that we protect.
C, environmental air quality.
Have you seen some of the images from India where they're actually seeing the Himalayas for the first time in their lifetime on the horizon?
They've never seen the fact that they have stunning the highest mountains in the world just on the northern horizon from some of those southern Indian cities.
No, I think all of these things are good.
Of course they are.
How can they not be good?
I just hope that our memories are not short and that the changes that we're starting to make.
I mean, look, we both remember Art Bell, and he was very special to both of us.
And he was very keen for me to become a totally self-sufficient broadcaster doing live material from my own home.
didn't believe I could do it.
And he was right because...
Well, you know, four years ago, no, not four years ago, two years ago, I bought a mixer that was capable of connecting by USB and broadcasting.
It's a little broadcast mixer, and I got a really good deal on it, and I kept it in a box, and I thought, one day I'm going to need that.
Well, that day came when we went into lockdown, and I connected it, the computer recognized it, and I was on the air.
And that's it.
So I would like to be in a nicer place.
I think I'd like to be away from, London has been very good to me over the years, but I would like to be somewhere else doing what I do now.
Many, many, many years ago, I won't tell you how many because it would tip off how old I am, my good friend Arthur Clark and I were having tea at the Chelsea and down Lower Manhattan.
And Arthur was serving me in a sarong, which I thought was kind of cool.
And he looked at me.
This is when I was, you know, working as a consultant of CBS.
And we were thinking up all kinds of crazy projects like borrowing the Concorde and chasing eclipses and borrowing ocean liners and doing seminars at sea and before anybody else was doing all that.
Anyway, he looked at me and he says, you know, Dick, he said, anybody who commutes more than 30 seconds from office to home is a fool.
Hallelujah.
Light years before the technology, the wired world we now totally take for granted had come into its own where we have Skype and Zoom and all these other appurtenances and you can do your show like I can do my show from Anywhere on the planet.
And all these people who say, oh, but you need the camaraderie of your colleagues.
Well, no, you can do that virtually.
And in fact, it's much better in many cases.
I've worked in a lot of offices over the years.
And sometimes familiarity breeds contempt.
So if you're around people.
I have friends all over the world that I've never physically met.
But see, going way, way back when I was this kid, you know, and I'd drive behind the ears in the museum in Springfield, Massachusetts, I got to know people at JPL.
I got to know people in Washington.
I got to know people at Cape Canaveral.
I never met them.
It was phones.
You know, I had a whole batch of friends by phone.
Some of them did eventually come to Springfield and drop in.
And some of those people were quite remarkable in terms of their positions and all that.
Like the associate director of NASA came to Springfield one afternoon and actually helped me push my 57 Chevy out of a snowdrift.
But most of my relationships were by phone then, and most of them are by email and Skype and Zoom now.
And I can live anywhere I want to with the extraordinary ability to walk out on the porch, to look at these gorgeous mountains, to wave to my hummingbirds, and I can be anywhere you could possibly imagine instantly, electronically.
And that doesn't preclude physically going when we can do all that again, but it's by choice and not by force.
And that could be the revolution that's going to overtake an awful lot of other people who realize, oh my God, I don't have to sit in traffic for those people that simply commute to a tall vertical warehouse called an office.
I came to London because you had to come to London in those days.
Just like in America, if you want to get on in broadcasting, the zenith is London or Los Angeles, but it's New York rather or Los Angeles.
And mostly it's all in New York.
So if you're good, then you're going to get to, I mean, Scott Shannon, I remember, told me, you know, he said, Joe Howard, the hardest thing I ever did was getting to New York.
You don't want to know what the second hardest thing I ever did?
Staying in New York.
Remember the old Frank Sinatra song?
If you can make it there, you can make it, you know, that kind of thing.
So, but, look, there's awful, there's an awful number of people.
We call them service, you know, personnel who work for McDonald's or, you know, Colonel Sanders or, you know, all those things.
And they have to physically be there.
But there's another trend that's overtaking.
Do you know, I think it's Twitter that is buying Grubhub?
Because suddenly an awful lot of urban sophisticates, millennials, realize it's really cool to have dinner sent in and have a family sit-down to get to know your kids, just to look at your wife.
Just like we used to do when I was a kid.
In other words, these are huge social changes, which this awful scourge is impelling that already had some trends.
You know, there were things pointing in these directions.
This has probably collapsed this transition probably about 10 years.
And it could wind up benefiting people in terms of health, in terms of socialization, in terms of just community.
Because, of course, if you're not forced to stay in, then the places you go are because you want to, not because you feel you have to to kind of maintain appearances or keep up over here.
We used to say the Joneses.
And all we've got to do to be able to enjoy all the fruits of this is beat that little virus that looks like a little land mine.
You know, a little mine at sea.
There are very interesting ways because we have a very little-known division of a government agency over here called the National Institutes of Health.
I presume you've heard of it, right?
I've heard a lot.
Okay.
It has a subdivision called the, I forget the technical title, but it's basically the Division for Alternative Medicine.
Are you with me so far?
Which is, you know, the supplements that Robin used to feed me, et cetera, et cetera, all that stuff.
There's another division of the Division of Alternate Medicine called Energy Medicine.
Right.
Okay.
There is the possibility, which we are really, really seriously exploring.
I've had a couple of guests on my show, plug the other side of midnight, which are looking at using resonant frequencies, audio frequencies, to actually A, remotely diagnose who has the virus and who doesn't,
and B, tune the dial so you basically flip it 180 and you broadcast those frequencies that will eliminate the virus and leave the body healthy all without a vaccine.
Right.
Well, I mean, I'll be very interested in that when I see it.
I haven't seen that in the mainstream news just yet, but I'll be looking for it.
Though why does it have to be in the mainstream?
Well, it doesn't have to be, but, you know, that's what people consume, isn't it?
But, you know, look, what you're talking about, I interviewed Michael Tellinger in South Africa recently, and we were talking about the power of sound and just what you're talking about, resonant frequencies and how ancients, and I'm not just talking tens or hundreds of thousands of years, but millions of years, ancients knew that technology and were using it.
And that's what the stone circles, 10 million of them in South Africa.
Precisely.
Yes, you're on exactly the right pun intended.
Wavelength.
Have you looked at the architecture of Gobekli Tepe?
I have.
Those structures were sound resonant chambers.
Remember, the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid is a sound resonant chamber.
There are, you know, Graham Hancock has looked at this stuff all over the world.
This is a technology which is going to find that its time has come.
Well, the whole frequency energy medicine angle has been so underfunded and so underutilized, basically because of the competition with big pharma.
But now we're in a race against time because you can't open up societies economically unless people can be secure in their offices, secure at school, secure in public transport.
And the energy technology is available now.
All it has to be done is mainstreamed, as you said a moment ago, and people are desperate for something that works.
They don't care what works.
They just want something that works.
Right.
Okay.
Well, look, we have a saying here that you have there to watch this space.
Let's do that.
I have been reading just quickly while we're on the subject of coronavirus that none of us can ignore.
There are people who've been writing in newspapers, and I have to say I have scoffed at a lot of this stuff that I've read.
And I shouldn't scoff because I do the unexplained.
But they say that coronavirus may have originated somehow in ways that we don't know from space.
Do you think that's the case?
I think it's a very important possibility that needs to be checked out.
Now, one of your countrymen, who I had on my show a couple of weeks ago, his name is Dr. Chandra Wickrama Singh.
He's a tenured professor at the University of Cardiff.
He's got a whole bunch of degrees.
He's probably the world's preeminent astrobiologist.
I was looking at the data and I said to myself, you know, I wonder what Chandra thinks about this, because he and his colleagues have been looking, colleagues like our friend Arthur Clarke and Sir Fred Hoyle, for decades at the idea that there are viruses and bacteria in space, part of a kind of a natural ecosystem in the galaxy.
This is work that is totally unknown because, frankly, it's been actively suppressed.
Anyway, so I called him up.
And these days, what you do is use Skype or you use email.
And I said, Chandra, what do you think?
And I was stunned that he said, Richard, he said, I'm actually working on this with a colleague in China.
So he came on the show and he showed me how this virus first appeared in a band around the northern hemisphere between 30 degrees north and 50 degrees north.
And it covers Wuhan, covers the United States, covers Britain, covers mainland Europe, covers Italy, Iran, lower parts of China, of course, Wuhan, and then you go back around the world.
That's where this occurred first.
And he makes a very good case that either this literally came to the planet because the Earth crossed the tail of a comet, where these viruses are actually actively being bred in an ecosystem, which is not, again, part of a mainstream astronomy quite yet.
Or B, it may have been deliberately directed by someone in space because of the orbital tracks indicate entry from a terrestrial orbit, not the entire planet as we move through interplanetary space.
Forgive me for being a horrible skeptic and cynic, more cynic probably in this case on this.
But if I was running a totalitarian state where all of this had originated because perhaps of failures of regulation or whatever, or just an accident, then I'd be very keen to have it known or have it thought that this thing came from space because it would be in my interest.
Yeah, but science doesn't care about political agendas.
Science is based on data.
I would recommend that you call Chandra up and you have a conversation off the air.
And if you think his data is sufficient, you know, have him on the air.
But he has been doing this, and he has an extraordinary database deep into the galaxy, spectral signatures and all that, that show that, you know, life is not just confined to the planet.
Now, you and I have had many discussions about Brookings and about are we ready and, you know, who in government thinks that we're not quite there yet, that we can't handle the truth, that kind of thing.
Did you know that in November of last year, November 19th of 2019, NASA made an extraordinary announcement relating to Mars.
They announced that they have a dual mystery now, which is for several years they've been monitoring with their various spacecraft the rise and fall of methane in the Martian atmosphere.
On Earth, methane is highly indicative of active biology.
Most of the methane in the Earth's atmosphere comes from active biological and organic sources.
And you can tell the difference between the isotopes, carbon-14 or carbon-12.
On Mars, they've been monitoring a methane cycle that goes up and down with the Martian seasons, meaning it's highest in summer, Martian summer in the appropriate hemisphere.
It's lowest in winter, Martian winter, and the Martian year is about twice as long as our year.
But the tilt of the planet is very close to the same.
It's about 25 degrees compared to 23.5 for the Earth.
Recently, as of November of last year, they discovered with the Curiosity rover that they had a fluctuation in available oxygen in the atmosphere of Mars.
Now, you probably don't know that Mars actually has a smidgen, a trace of oxygen amidst all the CO2 and the other components in the atmosphere.
And this big news story was all about the possibility that because of the seasonal variation, something was growing there.
Exactly.
Just as vegetation, whatever.
Exactly.
Grows here.
Hit it right on the head.
You'll get those variations.
Very exciting.
You get one data point, which is the methane.
Now, remember, methane naturally in the Earth's atmosphere goes away.
Sunlight, you know, the disinfectant that our president has been talking about, is very effective at splitting the methane molecules apart and disassociating them as a technical term, and it goes away.
So it has to be replenished for there to be something you Can measure.
On Earth, most of the methane is from biological sources.
Okay?
So by extrapolation, you've got this rising and falling seasonal curve of methane on Mars.
Methane on Mars lasts shorter in terms of time than it does on Earth because the atmosphere doesn't seem to have ozone high up to screen ultraviolet light.
So methane is destroyed more quickly.
So Howard, where does the methane A come from?
B, what keeps replenishing it when the methane in the atmosphere is being destroyed?
And C, why is it in synchronization with the planetary seasonal cycles of the planet?
And it seems too organized and, like you say, cyclical for it to be some kind of, which some suggested at the time, an anomaly with maybe, well, not an anomaly, but a property of the underlying rock strata.
Well, there are people saying it's geological, but how do you get the seasonal variations?
That's exactly.
That's the thing that didn't add up to me.
So November of last year, just a couple, three months ago, NASA comes out with an announcement.
We've got another mystery.
Oxygen.
And they measured oxygen varying in a seasonal cycle in synchronization with the methane seasonal cycle.
Now, to the untutored eye, what would you say could possibly be the origin of both chemical mysteries?
Well, the origin, if you've got something breathing that oxygen, then it's and growing in a cyclical way as things do on Earth in conjunction with the seasons, then, you know, that's called life.
Yes.
Now, you and I are, in terms of these discussions, laymen, right?
Yeah.
We don't have the decades of expertise.
We much more than you.
Okay.
So I have Dr. Chandra Wickrama Singh, the world's preeminent astrobiologist.
You got to call him.
He's just next door, okay?
I have him on the show.
I don't tell him what I'm going to ask him.
And I ran this by him.
And I said, Chandra, what do you think of this?
And he said without hesitation, oh my gosh, Dick, they found life on Mars.
And you can't get better than that.
And he also said, this is important.
He said, and they're covering it up because they have several political problems.
So he was willing to venture where few have gone before and A, discuss what NASA was doing, which is in a Dickinsonian fashion, telling us the truth, but telling it slant.
And B, he said that they were being very, shall we say, arched in their press release.
In fact, the scientist in charge of these measurements, who I know at the University of Michigan, his name is Atreya, they actually put out in this NASA press release, again, you can find it on the web, November 19th, 2019.
They actually put out a call to the general American public, and by metonymy, the world public, and they said, this is such an intriguing mystery.
Can you help us?
They really said this, Howard.
Can you help us figure this out?
I mean, how dumb do they think we are?
So here's what's going to happen.
In a couple of months, in July, the follow-on unmanned rover to the brilliantly successful car-size Curiosity rover that's been roving around a place called Gale Crater is leaving from Cape Canaveral.
It will carry a new spacecraft about the same size and the same modality as Curiosity, nuclear-powered, loaded with all kinds of very incredible instruments, including, Howard, a remote-controlled helicopter with a camera.
Yes, I read about that.
That's a solution.
You could make that fly there, sorry.
Exactly.
And they're going to send back data to the rover, and then the rover will transmit it back to Earth.
We're going to get close-ups from just a few hundred feet up in the air of all kinds of things over the horizon, over the next hill, and down in the next crater, that kind of thing.
And then if it's interesting, the rover will go over and sample it in situ.
On that spacecraft, which is going to be called Perseverance, all right, named by, I think, a 12-year-old kid here.
They run these contests all the time.
Perseverance, short, Percy.
Do you know any Percy connected to Mars that you and I should be intrigued with?
No, but that's probably just a gap in my education.
Percival Lowell.
Oh, Lowell.
Okay.
The Boston Brahmin who built an observatory in the American Southwest, not far from me here over in Arizona, the Lowell Observatory.
Lowell's nickname, of course, was Percy.
Again, NASA's being so cute, so tongue-in-cheek.
Their rover is going to be called Percy for First of all, Lowell, even though they say it's Perseverance.
It is carrying exactly the kind of instruments to find current microbial life on Mars.
So when it lands on February 18th, 2021, that's a hard date, regardless of when it launches, the way the celestial windows work, it's got to land on February 18th.
The revolution, Howard, will be televised from Mars because that's when the Percival Lowell lander, the Percival Lowell rover, is going to confirm the presence of biological life on Mars and everything will change.
Apparently we knew, or we may have known, not we knew, we may have known, in the 1970s of this possibility, of the labeled release project that you will see.
Oh, you're thinking of our old friend Gilbert Levin.
And Dr. Patricia Ann Stroud, who's written a book about all of this, who I had on my show two months ago.
And, you know, the belief is that something, the very strong possibility was found there that there was life on Mars, something growing, but it couldn't be absolutely positively confirmed.
And for some reason, they didn't go back to that research.
We haven't revisited it.
It has nothing to do with it.
It's because of Brookings.
And Chandra hit it on the head.
He says, well, they're just, they don't know how to tell anybody because they've got political problems.
This is their way out.
The idea that they will put out a press release with these remarkable curves, methane and oxygen, and then say to the general public, can you help us solve this mystery?
In Washington, we call this plausible deniability.
Okay.
Over here, people are a bit more straightforward.
They would just say, isn't that what we pay you for?
Well, Americans, or shall we say, a little less sophisticated politically.
I mean, for God's sake, we elected Donald Trump.
Yes, you did.
Okay.
So next year is going to be the big one.
It's going to be huge.
And you're going to be able to be anywhere you want on the planet, broadcasting live around the world in wonderful surroundings with great views, interesting people, where you want to be as opposed to where you have to be.
And we're going to be able to actually do this in real time and track a revolution.
Because remember, Sagan said many, many years ago, Carl Sagan, he said, if we find as much as a microbe independently evolved on Mars, it means the galaxy is teeming with life.
Yep, because when you do that, when you make that discovery, then you've just changed all of the odds.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Statistically, now, Chandra, when you have him on your show, because you've got to have him on your show, he will regale you for hours, if you've got hours, with all the data that's been accumulated over the last half century, since the 1950s, including stratospheric balloons, including what they found on the outside of the International Space Station.
Are you aware of that?
I am.
The algae?
Yes.
And wasn't there a straightforward explanation given about that?
No!
It's a cover-up.
The critics who say, oh, it can't be coming from space, they're somehow claiming that the space station, which is orbiting 250 miles upstairs, all right, with a big hard vacuum between the station and even the upper ionosphere of the Earth's atmosphere,
they're claiming somehow these algae have migrated through a vacuum against the pull of gravity to where you need to be accelerated to something like five miles per second to stay in orbit.
And they're claiming it came from Earth because it's just arm waving.
Again, Chandra very forthrightly will tell you all the political backstory of all the bizarre contortions that these critics have bent themselves into to try to explain away the simple fact this stuff is raining down from interplanetary space and interstellar space.
And there is a British scientist.
He is authoring.
He's co-authoring a paper with the key Russian scientists in Moscow, trying to figure out where this stuff really came from.
So you might want to ask him about that.
I think we are entering interesting times that I do know.
Extraordinarily interesting times.
All sorts of stuff that we wouldn't have thought possible.
Now, how does, talking about Mars, okay, if that announcement is made, because it can't be unmade, and there's an inevitable momentum taking us towards that.
If that announcement is made, how does that leave everything that you said about the remnants of ancient civilizations, regularly geometric rubble lying around the surface of Mars, signs that somebody'd been there before?
How does all of that work in?
Okay, let me reverse this.
Okay, I'm going to take the interviewer's hat.
Mr. Hughes, if we find that life used to exist or currently exist on Mars in a rudimentary form, what does that do for the prospects of intelligent organisms that may no longer be there, but could have been there in the past?
Because if there's current life, it might in fact be a decadent form of a previously much more advanced form of life that is now struggling in the Lowell model to hang on to a dying planet.
Well, I'm going to tell you something that I've always pretty much believed.
The way they say it works here, if we ever are foolish enough to destroy ourselves or get destroyed, life won't end forever.
It will come back in a very basic form, maybe a sort of binary form, a very, very simple form.
And then once again, the process of evolving into something else will happen.
That's the way stuff works.
So if we find this on Mars, then it wouldn't be a great big stretch to say that there had been much more sophisticated things there before and something had stopped their party.
Exactly.
Go to the head of the class, get your gold star, and I'll meet you for coffee when we can, you know, safely, not socially distance.
Look, this is going to be the revolution because the problem we've had, meaning those of us that seeing artifacts in the NASA data and the Russian data and the Japanese data and even the Chinese data, the problem we have is that the mainstream scientific community can say, oh, come on, Hoagland, Mars is dead.
It's a dry, glaciated desert.
There's never been any life.
You're proposing advanced civilizations with ruins and all that.
You know, just go home, go home.
But if you have a Mars where, as you said, you have cycles of life and destruction and life and destruction, and the current epoch of life is primitive because it's climbing back up the evolutionary ladder From some planetary catastrophe, of which our planet Earth has suffered many in the geological record, we look at extinctions, right?
I mean, if you're looking for evidence, you'll find it here.
All over.
It's all over that life is cyclic.
Well, lo and behold, my gosh, maybe life on Mars was exactly as cyclic for the same cosmic reasons as life has been cyclic here.
In other words, Howard, it puts the whole artifacts previously advanced civilization in a totally different scientific context.
And it opens the door to minds who have refused to look at our data before, but now they'll have to look because the context is different.
Mars is an alive planet.
It's just sleeping.
I have no scientific evidence.
And as you know, I am not a scientist.
I kind of believe that, but I'm waiting to be shown the evidence.
And NASA's spending about a billion and a half dollars to go prove it next year.
I mean, the timing is perfect.
You come out in November with this extraordinary oxygen-methane set of curves.
And then a few months later, you send a spacecraft loaded, as we say over here, for Bayer with all the exact instruments on board required to determine and confirm this extraordinary hypothesis.
And you don't think the timing is kind of carefully arranged?
And you honestly think they're unfolding some kind of drama that is congruent with what the public can accept and take.
And now you think this is the time, if you follow that equation, for the public to know.
It is time, Howard, to get pregnant.
Okay.
I'll write that down and keep it.
That's, you know, look, I'd like that to happen.
I think it's time to do that.
I don't even think we need to do that.
I'm not doing this one.
I think you have to do that with somebody who really doesn't believe all of it.
And you know there are lots of those people.
There are people who say there is nothing to be seen on Mars.
It's all just, you know, it's rock.
It's broken.
Oh, understand what Sagan was saying, you know, in his extraordinarily eminent Dickinson fashion.
By the way, the reason I keep quoting Dickinson is because he had this great poem, you know, and there was a line in it, tell all the truth, but tell it slant.
NASA has been doing this for decades because of Brookings.
Remember, an official government report commissioned by the last few months of the Eisenhower administration, right after NASA was formed in 1958, you know, the so-called long-range committee of NASA put out a contract to the Brookings Institute, which is the major think tank in Washington, right?
And they asked them to look at all the implications of NASA's studies in what were termed euphemistically the out years.
Well, one of those studies was the discussion and discovery and confirmation and public announcement of extraterrestrial life.
And the Brookings report, and I'm going to paraphrase now, basically said in that good old Jack Nicholson line, if you find it, you can't tell them because they can't take it.
And it required in this report that there be decades of public education through film, television, commercials, novels, short stories, every possible media, they didn't imagine the internet back then, to get the public, the world public ready to understand that we are not alone.
So we would be prepared by popular culture, by Roy Thinnis in The Invaders, and all of that stuff.
All of that.
For what is to transpire.
Okay, well, I think there's a strong possibility that may be true.
But again, I don't have the absolute evidence, do I?
Yeah, but in politics, there are never such things as absolutes.
It's all relative.
This is not science.
This is political science.
And it took me a while to kind of figure out that the reason we were meeting headwinds and people not looking at this data and saying, oh, my God, look at those ruins, is because politically, their hearts and minds cannot be there yet.
We have been inculcated from birth that we're the only ones, the only ones, the only ones.
It takes a while to change public attitudes.
Now, I believe, based on what I see of general popular culture, Star Wars, Star Trek, you know, Battlestar Galactica, you know, the Marvel Universe series, all of that, that when this announcement is made, most of the millennials will yawn and say, oh, what's going on with Kim Kardassian?
Yes, they will.
We know they will.
Yeah.
And that's exactly what they wanted.
Because if you read Brookings, they were terrified.
And I use that term very carefully.
Read the document.
They were terrified that several things would happen.
There'd be an anti-Christian backlash.
There would be literally riots in the streets.
Political instability.
Political instability, the worst thing possible.
And scientists would no longer go to work because everything had already been discovered, just not by them.
And we've had now decades of preparation through cultural media that this is not the case.
So you think they're going to tell us next year.
Sorry I've interrupted, but you think they're going to say, okay, here is the truth.
And it's not that we've been hiding it or anything.
We've just got great science and we've just discovered it.
Yes.
And because most people don't do their homework and knowledge of history is evanescence shorter than a gnat's lifespan, the political lie that they've just figured this out will, for most people, take hold.
They will buy it.
They will get off scot-free.
And frankly, I don't give a damn.
I don't want to hold their feet to the fire.
I want to get on with the exciting thing, which is once it's agreed that Mars has current life, then the doorway to ancient ruins And ancient cultures and ancient wonders, and the whole Edgar Rice Burrow set of scenarios is thrown wide open, and we enter, Howard, an entirely new world.
Why do they want us to know then?
Because they could sit on this forever.
No, because remember, there are such things as private space programs.
We have a guy over here named Elon Musk.
He's going to be sending a colony to Mars in the next, let's say, 10 years.
We have the capability of putting private unmanned spacecraft anywhere we want to in the solar system.
And the Enterprise mission, the nonprofit that I run, is going to be doing that.
They're called CubeSats.
And in fact, on the previous mission to Mars that NASA sent called the InSight mission, it was accompanied with a flyby of Mars by two little CubeSat, you know, briefcase-size spacecraft that were basically being tested for the first time outside of low Earth orbit in an interplanetary trajectory.
And they performed flawlessly.
And it's that kind of off-the-shelf technology which private entrepreneurs are going to be able to send in the next five years to Mars, Howard.
And they're going to find all this out and they're going to blow the doors wide open.
So NASA has to get ahead of the curve.
So now it is a space race.
And I didn't know until you just told me you've been part of it.
With your CubeSats.
We are working on that and other technologies.
You know, this is the kind of thing I prophesized in The Monuments of Mars.
Remember, there was a chapter I talked about private missions to go and check this stuff out when I wrote the book 30 some years ago?
Yeah, I was going to say that all of the stuff that you were saying, you know, and you know that people have scoffed at you and knocked you all your career.
Richard Hogan, he makes stuff up and all the rest of it.
But, you know, it's a bit of a laugh at the moment because a lot of the stuff that you said is coming to pass.
Maybe not exactly as you said it, but, you know, the theme is there.
Thematically, it's pretty much there.
Isn't that special?
Well, it must be nice for you.
Well, it can be nice for me when we actually get on with the mission, which is what the hell were the advanced Martian civilizations doing?
Are we, the human race on Earth, somehow related?
Are we really the Martians?
Did they bring their technology here when Mars finally became, in the Burroughs model, not the place, you know, misquoting Elton John, to try to raise your kids?
There's huge questions about our own heritage, advanced civilizations in prehistory here on Earth.
This is opening the doorway to so many things that the gatekeepers would prefer not to have opened.
But given a planet of 7 billion people and the burgeoning technologies in the private sector, they're not going to be able to keep this door closed very much longer.
So they have to get ahead of the curve.
They're sending a rover next year.
It's going to find life on Mars.
And then it's Katie bar the door.
True.
And if we find, you know, referring to Michael Tellinger and Graham Hancock and stuff like that.
No, no, if we find stuff of a kind that perhaps subsequently we also discover here, then you have a complete story then, and you have an absolute game changer for everybody.
At so many different levels.
I mean, look, we are currently going through a counterattemp between the United States and China, right?
We're accusing China of creating somehow this horrible virus in a lab in Wuhan, and somehow it escaped, right?
Well, I don't know whether we're accusing them of creating it, but the smart money at the moment suggests that it may have been in a lab and then got out because they weren't very circumspect about the way that they looked after those things.
Which is all of those things have been said.
Yeah, all those things have been said.
Okay.
I think that's misdirection.
And I think it's because of Brookings.
No one in positions of governmental authority can say, wait a minute, folks, it wasn't China who did this.
It was upstairs.
It was somebody upstairs.
But let's go back to Sagan.
Sagan said, if we find as much as a microbe independently evolved on Mars, it means the galaxy is filled with life.
He wasn't talking about microbes.
He was talking about the entire gamut of life, up to and including advanced interstellar civilizations.
Okay?
Under that rubric, under that precept, is it not possible that this virus came to Earth not from a terrestrial lab, but from an extraterrestrial lab,
not by a current vector, in other words, active beings out there trying to get rid of humans, but simply because it's the remnant of an ancient war that was designed as part of a previous phase of human existence in the solar system.
And we are unlucky that it struck from space at this time and it infected humans because genetically we're related to the guys that are no longer out there but came before.
It's an interesting theory, but it needs an awful lot of work on this.
It needs data, that's all.
We need to think really far outside the box.
Let me give you another outside the box, okay?
Have you been at all familiar with the so-called breakaway civilization model of Richard Dolan?
Okay.
Do you want to tell people what it is or do you want me to?
I'd rather you did.
Okay.
Richard Dolan is a brilliant academician in upstate New York.
I talked to him just yesterday.
He's going to come on my show about the middle of June and lay all this out on the other side of midnight, hand hand.
He has created a model based on archives released from Eastern Europe, particularly after the wall fell in Germany, showing that the Germans had this extraordinary advanced technological and research program up to and including control of gravity, control of extraordinary energy sources.
And at the end of the war, a contingent of these advanced research projects literally left the planet.
Not by rockets, but by control of gravity.
Now, I have a colleague named Dr. Paul Laviolette, who has published over here in the United States a book on the U.S. participation, these top secret black ops programs in these same areas.
Yeah, I've had him on the show, yeah.
This is an area of physics and science, which is real.
It's not, again, known in the mainstream, but it's documentable.
There's real evidence.
There's real memos.
There's real files.
There's real leaks.
There's real people.
It's a real bona fide part of history that has not yet been brought into the mainstream yet.
If you look at history through that set of lenses, it is conceivable, and this is Dolan's model, that a group of these Nazis took this technology and unknown numbers of personnel, and they literally left the planet.
You know, it's the old joke about where does an 800-pound gorilla live anywhere it wants to?
Because with this technology, you can make colonies on the moon or on Mars or even the moons of Jupiter if you so desire.
The resources are there.
You just have the energies and the technologies to utilize them, and you can create colonies anywhere you want.
This is now a split.
That's why it's called a breakaway civilization from current mainstream civilization here on the planet.
Those people, obviously, for 75 years in Dolan's model, have been looking at the Earth with almost like H.G. Wellian envious eyes.
Because the only place you can really live without technology is here on Earth.
It's the only garden spot in the solar system.
What did the Third Reich try to do 75 years ago?
They tried to own the world.
They tried to take over the world, right?
Did they stop wanting to do that just because they, quote, lost the first round?
There are scholars.
Well, there are many who say that they never stopped.
Exactly.
There are scholars like Joseph Farrell, who I had on the show the other night discussing this, and of course, Dolan, who was the originator, who believe that they've been biding their time.
And at some point, there would come a clash between terrestrial civilization and the breakaways.
And in that model, coronavirus 19 is their gambit to basically create the end game for attacking and taking over the world.
I mean, what has it taken, Howard, for 195 separate governments who can't agree on the time of day or when to have tea or what color the sky is for them all to agree, all of them, to keep their citizens inside, to hunker down, to lock down, to socially distance, et cetera, et cetera.
Are they afraid of more than just the virus?
Well, it's an interesting theory.
I think it's going to have to stay one at this moment because I think that my listeners listening to this, and certainly if I think about it from my perspective, I just want us to deal with the here and now.
Yeah, but reality doesn't care what you want.
Reality is reality.
I've got you, but it's a difficult topic, and it's an interesting theory.
That would be where I'm at on it.
Well, let me give you a variant, all right?
Because there are multiple doors that we can go through in looking at these possibilities.
See, I'm a scientist that says, look, you can't put anything off the table.
You exclude it by evidence.
All right.
The Chinese have sent two brilliant unmanned spacecraft to the moon, right?
One on the front side, Chang-3, landed at 44 North, 19.5 West.
Howard, the importance of that number.
I know that number.
And their website, their official website was full of tetrahedrons.
So they went to the moon to do something having to do with this physics.
Remember, the physics, the hyperdimensional torsion field model, is the key to unlimited energy, the key to controlling gravity, the key to living anywhere in the solar system, right?
Okay.
They then, a couple of years later, sent another duplicate of this mission called Chang-4, and Chang is the goddess of the moon, to the far side of the moon to land in a place called the Achen Basin in the southern hemisphere of the far side of the moon.
And they've been sending back for the last year or so astonishing pictures, which if you look at them and I look at them, we will see different things because they've been distorted just enough that if you know you're looking at ruins, you'll see them.
But if you don't know there's any ruins on the moon, you're not going to see them.
And all the people in government, in this government, know there are ruins on the moon.
Why do you think the president wants to rush back to the moon with an American expedition before the end of his last term?
Right.
And why does he want to mine the moon?
Yes, exactly.
That was the last week or something.
The mining has nothing to do with minerals.
I mean, just think of the numbers.
So you go to the moon with rockets, which are, you know, $10,000 per pound to get it to the moon.
And then you mine something on the moon, you bring it back.
What could possibly be worth over $10,000 a pound?
I thought it was about water and materials to make fuel for rocket trips or for manned trips that go further.
Yeah, but you don't need to mine the moon to do that.
You know, you can go to asteroids, you can go to comets, you know, they have tons of water.
In fact, Comet Borisov got rid of something like 60 million gallons of water.
I saw a calculation the other day as it flew through the solar system.
No, you go to the moon, and this is what they're going to mine.
Howard, this is, again, Emily Dickinson code for mining the high technology of the former advanced civilizations that were on the moon.
Right.
So you think that what we are and the civilization that may have been on Mars and whatever may have been on the moon, it's all a little bit like, I don't know, it's like a kind of, I don't know, burger franchise, like a McDonald's.
You know, McDonald's is slightly different.
If you go to McDonald's in South America, it's different.
If you go to Paris, it's different.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
It's more like an extended family with cousins.
All right.
I like that.
All right.
When Mars, again, going back to Elton John, you know, not the place to raise your kids.
When Mars fell apart and you could no longer live there, where could the refugees have come?
In the whole solar system.
Where's the one place they had to come?
Here.
Right.
And maybe we have to go back because of the state of this planet up until now.
Maybe we've got to go back.
We've got to be able to save this planet.
But yeah, in other words, there's a relationship there.
And I think the in crowd knows this.
And that's one of their reasons for going to Mars.
Well, if that is the truth, then it is the key.
Very quickly, we've only got a few minutes, and I'll just go.
I need to wrap up one thought then.
Okay, wrap up the thought.
All right.
So the Chinese have been very aggressive with the moon, right?
And they've been flaunting for those that know what they're looking at what they found on the moon.
All right.
They've landed a spacecraft on the far side, which has far more preservation of these ruins than the side we can see.
And there's a long backstory about that.
We don't have time to go into it.
The point is, suppose the breakaways, who of course have bases on the moon and are using the water and the other resources to maintain their livability, and how do we know this?
Because of an Indian unmanned mission.
And that's another long story.
Suppose the breakaways, seeing what China is about to do, because they're talking about a manned space station, they're talking about interplanetary missions, manned interplanetary missions.
Suppose the breakaways sent a delegation basically to Earth to the Chinese to basically show them the reality of the solar system in which they are operating.
Are you with me so far?
I am.
And suppose the breakaways inadvertently gave the Chinese the virus.
Okay.
Well, just transmission.
It's the classic contact story where, remember War of the Worlds?
Remember how the Martians were defeated by microorganisms on the earth?
If you have contact between two cultures and there's no immunity, again, I'm not saying I believe this is what happened.
I'm saying it's possibly what happened.
And the reason the Chinese were first is because the Chinese are out there pushing the boundary against the breakaways with their missions and bragging about what they found.
Okay.
Well, I think there is more to be discovered about what is on the other side of the moon, the back side of the moon.
Of course, that means I guess you'll have to have me back at some point.
Well, I'm hoping so, Richard.
It's been too long.
You know, I always love speaking with you.
And you know that I'm going to get the emails from people who disagree with you and the people who say, I'm glad you got Dick back on the show again.
But that is what makes the world turn, as they used to say.
What was that soap?
As the world turns.
As the world turns.
As the world.
And very quickly then, all of this stuff about Mars taking you back there.
How does that tie into the fact that we have been told a lot in the last two years about more and more discoveries of exoplanets, planets a bit like ours?
Let's go back to Sagan.
And that's why you really need to talk to Chandra, because Chandra has data that shows that Sagan was right.
There are interstellar clouds in the Milky Way teeming with biological life whose spectral signature to a scientist that knows what they're looking at is a fait accompli.
What we can't see, of course, are the traces of technological civilization.
But have you noticed, Howard, that some of these exoplanet systems are remarkably ordered?
Like you've got one, I think it's called TRAPPIST, where there are seven planets all of the same size, and they're all orbiting their star in rhythmic, harmonic progressions.
Now, I've been reading the newspaper reports, and now that you mention it, that is something that's in the back of my mind about the order of some of these discoveries.
Yep.
My model is, again, going back to Sagan, the galaxy is teeming with advanced life.
Some of it's related to us, most of it's not.
But in that huge spectrum of possible living things in the galaxy, there's all kinds of extraordinary applications of hyperdimensional physics and technology.
And the point will come, even for our culture, when we will be able to rearrange solar systems and move planets around and put them into orbits around stars and create separate Disneyland worlds relatively close to each other in the same star system, but radically different in terms of shared experience.
In other words, anything is possible to a sufficiently advanced civilization, i.e., where does the 800-pound gorilla sleep?
Anywhere he wants to.
That's a lovely point.
A lovely point to park this for now, I think.
And at the moment, we've been talking about expeditions to all kinds of places.
And you know something?
My biggest expedition of the week is the one to the supermarket, which I have today.
It's like a major military operation here.
Because, you know, look, I don't live in a desert.
I live in an urbanized area.
It's quite a nice one, but it's an urbanized area.
So my trip to the supermarket today is a military operation, which it's Become in the last seven weeks.
I'll get a few carrier bags.
I'll put a mask in one of them and some hand gel, hand sanitizer.
Okay?
And then it's down to the front door.
Touch the front door and open it.
Get out of the flat, the apartment block.
Gel up.
Do the hand gel.
Go to the car.
Make sure the car starts because the car is barely driven.
I've probably driven 15 miles in two months.
Okay, that's about maybe 20 miles in two months.
Make sure the car starts and it'll start again when I want to leave the supermarket.
Very important.
So run it for a bit.
Get to the supermarket.
Put on the mask.
Do the hand gel.
Get a trolley.
Get a cart, which they give you because they've cleaned them.
And, you know, maybe do the gel again before going into the supermarket.
Then get around the supermarket.
Follow the arrows as quickly as you can.
Get what you need and get out.
And that's been my limit of exploration.
So it's been a real tonic for me in my seven weeks of lockdown here with only myself for company and my listener when I do my radio show.
It's been a real tonic to talk about these things again and to catch up with you.
Think energy medicine.
I will.
I will.
And I've heard about the power of sound.
I've talked about it.
I think it's a fascinating area.
Richard, we will talk again.
We sure will.
Howard, stay safe.
I will.
And have some fun.
Oh, well, absolutely.
Well, you know, listen, at the moment, I'm recording this, and in front of me is all of my array of equipment.
You know about this.
And on top of the equipment is the ET that my mother bought me in 1982, right?
The little model.
And next to the little model of E.T is a little figure of Deanna Troy from Star Trek, Marina Satis.
And they're my company.
Just keep in mind that a few months from now, the world is going to change in a radically positive direction.
Because one thing, Howard, that this announcement of Life on Mars is going to do is intimately suddenly make every single human being on planet Earth so incredibly intensely family compared to what's out there or who.
Do you know what I'll be saying then?
If you'll pardon my, as we say here in England, pardon my French, I'll be saying, alle bloody Luya.
Bring it on.
Richard, if people want to look at your website, where do they go?
The Enterprise.
Well, there's actually two of them.
The Enterprise Missions, plural missionswithanes.com.
That's one.
And my show, of course, the other side of midnight.com, heard all over the world in 193 or 194 countries.
Every weekend, this Saturday and Sunday coming up, we're going to do something really amazing about COVID-19.
We're going to be talking about angels and demons.
All right.
Okay.
Well, I'll have to step up my efforts, I think, Richard.
Hey, listen, nice to talk with you again, and I'm glad that we've reconnected.
Likewise.
Your thoughts, welcome.
Richard C. Hoagland there with some stuff to make you think.
Don't you think?
You can email me if you want to through my website, theunexplained.tv.
Follow the link and you can send me an email.
And when you get in touch, tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
Well, I'm out of time.
Thank you very much for being part of this.
More great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained Online.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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