The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 409 - Jason Gleaves

Sept. 1, 2019 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:05:42

Edition 409 - Jason Gleaves

Chester-based UFO image analyst Jason Gleaves returns to the show where he started... talking about his bestselling new book "The UFO Umbrella"

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	Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
	Well, this particular edition being recorded on another very hot day in London.
	The extended summer seems to be going on, so it is going to be a fairly sweaty edition of the show this one.
	Carrying on with cold water and diet Pepsi on this edition, and that's what's keeping me going.
	As the temperatures get well into the 30s Celsius, the 90s or so Fahrenheit here.
	Plus that incredible humidity that we've had right the way through the summer in London.
	But I won't go on about that too much.
	Thank you to Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for his hard work on the show, and thank you to you for your emails.
	If you have a question that you need to have answered, then please know that I will see your email and I'll get back to you.
	Go to the website theunexplained.tv.
	Follow the link from there and you can send me an email.
	Don't forget, when you do get in touch, tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show.
	It's very important for me just to know those things.
	And if you'd like to make a donation to the show at the website theunexplained.tv.
	It's vital for what I do here and will continue to do.
	You know, this is a free show, but we do ask, if you can, please make a donation to the show.
	Remember that if you buy a cup of coffee, I know I always say this, but if you buy a cup of coffee in the UK, it's a minimum of £2.
	It may not even be very good when you get it.
	You take 10 minutes or so to drink it and then it's gone forever.
	If you donate £2 to the unexplained, then it makes a real contribution to something that you can use over and over again.
	It's just a thought.
	And the same thing goes in the US, where I think coffee starts for the most basic one at around about $2, maybe more these days.
	And what do you get for it?
	So just, you know, think for a second of what you, if you enjoy the show, what you get from this as compared with what you get from a cup of coffee.
	And of course, a lot of people tell me that they're going through hard times and I, more than many people, fully appreciate that.
	And they can't make a donation.
	And, you know, just enjoy the show is what I say to you.
	I'm glad to have you there.
	Thank you very much if you have made a donation recently.
	Now, a number of people, as I've said before on this show, have made their debut talking to an audience through this podcast.
	I'm very proud of that.
	People like Paul Sinclair, who's now doing so well around the world, and the man we've got on this time, Jason Gleaves, the UFO image analyst, ex-RAF man, who's now becoming a real celebrity around the world and appearing on American shows and doing all sorts of stuff these days.
	He did his first interview with me.
	I was looking back through the archive, I think around March 2018.
	And now, well, it's been an amazing roller coaster for him.
	He's got a new book out, published by Philip Mantle's Flying Disc Press.
	We mentioned it on the radio show that we did out of Liverpool in the early part of the summer.
	And the book is now out.
	It's called The Ufology Umbrella, Close Encounters Are Not Enough by Jason Gleves.
	Got the book here, and he's been very kind to sign my copy here.
	And I've really enjoyed reading the book today.
	So we're going to talk about the book and about where Jason is at at the moment in just a moment.
	So thank you very much for your emails.
	Please keep them coming.
	And please be assured that I've got more guests in the process of being booked as we come to the back end of this year, which has, rather like a UFO in the sky, flown by at remarkable velocity.
	I think you're fine.
	It's a boiling hot day when I record this.
	So if my mind is not moving as quickly as it might, the incredibly hot temperatures where I'm sitting at the moment, because I'm not in a radio studio, I'm at home doing this, they're just staggering.
	And the humidity with it, it's like, and has been in London, like living in a tropical country over the summer.
	Enough of the weather report, I know.
	All right, let's get to Jason Gleaves now in Chester, UK, very close to my home city of Liverpool, and say, Jason, thank you very much for coming back on my show.
	Hi, Howard.
	Thank you for the invite again.
	It's always a pleasure to be on your show.
	It's like coming home for me.
	Well, you know, I was explaining to my listener that you did your first interview with me, and it was just over 18 months ago, you know, it's not that long ago.
	So it's been a real, you know, somebody in my family used to say Liverpool years ago, it's been a real roller coaster, hasn't it?
	Yeah, yeah, certainly been that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I'm very proud of you.
	You're doing interviews all over the place.
	And of course, now you've got the book out.
	And we spoke a little bit about the book when we did the radio show from the Titanic Hotel in Liverpool back in June.
	And you couldn't tell me much about it.
	And of course, now I've got it in my hot little hand.
	And I can only say congratulations on this book.
	Thank you very much.
	Well, let's start with the title, though.
	And I asked you on that night, but I'll ask you again now.
	Why the ufology umbrella?
	Why call it that?
	Well, the book is basically it's follow-on from the first book, UFO Photo, where I analyze photographs and images for people worldwide.
	And this book is the next step from that, really.
	It's a sort of hands-on DIY book for UFologists who want to really get to know the nitty-gritty, that side of it.
	And I called it the UFology umbrella because that's basically that's the way I see UFology in general as a huge umbrella and numerous cases and categories all cascade off the word UFology.
	So really that's where it came from.
	And the great thing about the book, I've never quite seen a book like this.
	Not only is it well put together, but then that's, you know, Philip Mantle and Flying Disc Press.
	They've done a great job with this, haven't they?
	But the way that you put it together is very clear.
	You cover an awful lot of stuff, but you do it in an incredibly clear way.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like you said, it's really from the bottom up.
	It's like the other book was the same thing to do with image and processing and analysing of certain images.
	Well, this is to do with categories of close encounter.
	It's also known as CE1 to 7.
	Initially started through Dr. Hynek in the 70s and then progressed really on from there.
	And Dr. Hynek is famous for his Project Blue book, Which he introduced when he was brought in by the American military to discredit UFOs, and he actually turned coat on it really and became a believer in the subject.
	He did, and we've talked about him many times here, and he left a very important legacy, and people are still talking about him all these years later.
	I think a lot of people are going to be surprised that there are seven different kinds of close encounter.
	You know, most people probably saw that movie that was out in the 70s, wasn't it?
	Close Encounters of the Third Kind, back end of the 70s, with what was that guy's name with the glasses?
	Richard Dreyfus.
	Richard Dreyfus, yeah.
	I saw him on a TV program recently.
	Yeah, Richard Dreyfus.
	And the five tones.
	So that was Close Encounters of the Third Kind.
	But people will be surprised to know that there are seven different kinds.
	Can we run through the ones that people won't know?
	Yeah, certainly.
	Well, again, it really stems, you've got one, C, I'll call them C1, two, three, because that's the way we approach it.
	But you've got C1 and two, and the third was introduced, obviously, all three by Dr. Hynek.
	And he was quite reluctant to introduce the third, really, but he thought a lot of the actual categories could be interpreted within one and two, which is, you know, your basic sighting of a UFO or aerial phenomenon, you know, described as sources or anything similar.
	And it's not attributed to known modern-day tech unexplained lights, which are obviously the most common sightings.
	CE2, you've got UFO have been witnessed or seen and associated with something known to the phenomenon as such, and that accompanies it.
	So you're talking probably crop circles, terrain, landscape damage, scarred or mutilated animals, livestock, electronic or mechanical interference or damage, anything of infrastructure.
	Catalepsy, which is a trance-like state.
	So you paralyze your body, body seizures of some form of unnatural physical occurrence.
	And then CE3, obviously, which was reluctant, was UFO visually seen or spotted to further include, you know, a visual confirmation.
	And then you go further on to the C4, which is human abduction, which people have heard about.
	So it comes under CE4 by extraterrestrial beings, different kinds of visitation, not attributed to taking on board a UFO craft itself.
	So that would be the kind of thing that this is the year of the return of Calvin Parker and the Pascagoula case, and there's more information coming about that.
	And I don't know whether you know, but I'm sure you do, there's a new book being written at the moment, volume two about Pascagoula.
	So that's that kind of thing.
	Yeah, definitely.
	You know, that's an interesting case because it's ongoing.
	There's a lot more witnesses coming forward and more information.
	And Philip's doing a fantastic job of that case.
	He absolutely is.
	And it's proving the fact that even though many years have gone by, because the way that people regard this phenomenon now, they are more willing to talk about it.
	And I think that is why Philip's been able to get more witnesses to come out of the woodwork.
	Oh, yeah, definitely.
	I mean, I've mentioned this before when I try to go to as many conferences that I can within the UK, especially.
	And the people that are actually attending conferences now have changed so much.
	They're coming forward, they're waking up to what is happening around them.
	And the type of person is really wanting to find out more.
	And that's probably why Philip is getting so many people coming forward.
	And I think that's also why I've been able to make the jump from doing mainstream news on radio.
	I've been able to do this.
	And I think that probably 10, 15 years ago, and I started doing all of this then, people used to look a little bit out of the corners of their eyes at me to think, this is really weird.
	And there must be something a bit weird about him that he's doing this.
	I had colleagues who actually thought that way about me because I was interested in these things and I was doing a show like this.
	Now it's moving out and it's much more acceptable.
	Yeah, it's becoming more mainstream media as such where, you know, like you said, people waking up and wanting to know more in general, just about the, you know, UFology and paranormal, et cetera.
	But I do think the difference between the mainstream media, not all of it, but a lot of it when it does these things, is you're always going to have a gulf between somebody who's just doing a job.
	And look, I know what it's like to be on a news desk and I know what it's like to be covering topics that you don't know much about and maybe you're not even that interested in.
	So it's the difference between those of us who care about what we're doing and we want to try to advance knowledge a bit and those who are just doing a job.
	I think the mainstream media, although it's more accepting of it now, is always going to be a lot of people who are just doing a job.
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's when it becomes more, you know, with disclosure coming, which, you know, it's definitely going to come.
	I believe it's definitely going to be on everybody's lips sooner than later, you know, it can't be held back much longer, I would have thought.
	And especially mainstream media talking about it.
	And, you know, especially you've got the To the Stars Academy with Tom DeLong and Luis Elizonzo and Hal Puttoff and, you know, to name a few, who are actually coming forwards.
	And that has gone forward onto mainstream as well.
	And Luis Elizondo featuring in the Sun newspaper in the UK very, very recently.
	I mean, just more or less a rehash of what he was saying on that History Channel documentary, but still interesting to read.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely.
	All right, we're up to close encounters of the fifth kind.
	Now, this is where my knowledge of close encounters ran out.
	I didn't know that there was a fifth, sixth, and seventh kind, but the fifth is, you call it in the book, bilateral contact with an extraterrestrial entity.
	I presume that is a creature thinking at you or something like that.
	Yeah, you get a lot of people that have actually contacted me or, you know, I've had looked at cases where, you know, ETs are actually using some sort of thought, you know, connection between each other, you know, the entity and the human being itself.
	Are those things happening in the UK?
	Because you don't hear much of that here these days, do you?
	Yeah, it's happening worldwide.
	It's just obviously it's not publicized probably enough.
	But if you go to any conference, there's always somebody that'll approach you with their story or what's happened to their account, their experience.
	Sixth kind is close encounter of the sixth kind, a UFO or inhabitants of the UFO directly causing injury or death.
	I can't think of many cases like that.
	There is a celebrated case knocking around at the moment that you may have heard about, and there's a lot of controversy about this one.
	It's to do with an Italian, is it a military or police helicopter that's supposed to have been, hasn't it brought down by a UFO?
	I'm probably not summarizing that properly.
	Yeah, I'm not too sure of that case, but there are cases where, you know, that's why CE6 is there, really, because there are cases of crashed UFOs that have been recovered by military.
	There are a few cases that are actually covered by this.
	And when they recovered the craft themselves, they said there were human body parts on board.
	So it really comes under that element of CE6.
	I haven't heard of a case like that.
	That would assume, I suppose, or that would suggest that the crashed craft had been involved in abducting people.
	Yep, yeah, well, that's what we assume.
	So we know we go down that road.
	But, you know, why else would they have human body parts on board?
	Truly, that's it, isn't it?
	And that would be the ultimate smoking gun, I suppose.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And people, when they talk about the smoking gun, especially to do with images and analyzing images of UFOs and craft, etc.
	I mean, you know, the smoking gun photograph, really, you've got to look at the spent cartridges on the floor of the smoking gun element because, you know, we've got photographs of UFOs and I've seen quite a few UFO photographs over my time.
	Yeah, no, absolutely.
	And we'll talk about some of the cases in the book.
	And there are quite a few cases in here that I haven't heard much about or anything about.
	And you've got them backed up with analyses of images here, which are very good and very effective.
	And I personally, I think this book is a book for everybody.
	Close encounters of the seventh kind, which I definitely hadn't heard about, are the kind that the newspapers hear, you know, every year they'll have three or four stories of people who say, I had sex with an alien.
	That's the seventh kind.
	That's it, yeah.
	That's CE7, in which a human or extraterrestrial being mate, sexual intercourse, as we've just said, or artificial insemination, so to produce a hybrid being of some kind.
	So that's like people like Simon Parks, the man who was, I don't think he still is, a counsellor for one of the political parties in Whitby, Yorkshire.
	That would include him, wouldn't it, in the seventh kind?
	Yes, yep.
	And, you know, there are a lot of cases where people say they have been taken on board craft and being shown their own children where they've had, you know, part body parts taken from them, etc., you know, and really, that really comes under CE7.
	I mean, they're rare.
	They make interesting reading.
	I don't think the newspapers handle them as seriously as they might for obvious reasons, but they're perhaps some of the most interesting cases that you get.
	Okay, one of the things that I, again, I hadn't heard this particularly.
	I had heard of occasions where people have associated either silence or strange noises to do with UFOs, as we call them.
	But on page 26 of the book, you talk about sounds and UFOs and the fact that some people who've been experiencers have actually been left with ringing in the ears because of the frequency of sounds that they've heard.
	Yeah, well you get a lot of people, I mean, me included, where you get a ringing sensation in your ear.
	So the frequency that you'll get this pitched hearing is 83.44 hertz, I think it is.
	And it's distinct, you generally get it in one ear, so it's on your right or your left ear, not very often both ears.
	I mean, this can be tinnitus where it's, you know, it's been caused through working in loud environments.
	I mean, you may know, I have that and I've had that for about six or seven years now.
	And that was caused partly by an ear infection and partly by the fact that, you know, I've spent my entire life under headphones.
	Yeah.
	But this is different.
	Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I think it is part of the larger picture.
	You know, and I do think everything is to do with frequency, with actually sightings of UFOs or, you know, unexplained objects in the sky.
	And I go on further really to explain, you know, where I think a lot of musicians are within the right frequency to actually tone in or, you know, to actually seeing a UFO, because if the UFO has only been broadcast as such in a certain frequency and that musician, you know, can read music and their hearing and everything is slightly different probably to everybody else who can't.
	You know, it's similar to a radio station where, you know, there are hundreds and thousands of probably radio signals being broadcast everywhere.
	But when you tune into a certain radio station on your radio, you'll pick that one channel up and nothing else.
	So I see it pretty much like that, you know.
	And, you know, there are people around the world who are doing research into sound.
	I know that Michael Tellinger in Africa was doing research into the power of sound.
	And there are many people who say that sound has power.
	And there are people who say in ufology that sound could be linked to motive force, to the power of being able to basically power a spaceship.
	yeah, the anti-gravity or that side of it.
	And then, you know, it's definitely linked, you know, through everything frequency and definitely with the UFO side.
	And also, it said where certain UFOs have been seen to morph shape, so they'll look like they're changing.
	So you're talking frequency again, and you're talking the nodes within the craft itself changing to the frequency.
	Which would bring us back to close encounters of the third kind and that there, there, there, there, there.
	That's it, yeah.
	And everything's linked in one way or the other.
	You know, it seems to come back on itself somewhere.
	Page 32 or 33 of the book.
	Now, I've heard people reference in interviews, and I haven't picked them up on it too much.
	We haven't talked in too much detail about it, but it's one of those things that goes around.
	Oh, yes, even Jimmy Carter, former American president, saw a UFO.
	You go into some detail with pictures of this Jimmy Carter claimed sighting, don't you?
	Yeah, well, he's had the one he had was on when he was with his friends on a fishing trip, I think it was.
	But this one in the book, and not many people have come across this one where he was on his presidential duties.
	I think it was Fort Clayton in Panama, and that was during 1977.
	And it was as his party were leaving.
	They had two Chinook helicopters.
	Chinook helicopters are the twin rotor helicopters, military helicopters.
	And they had a military photographer that was taking the standard, you know, photographs of the occasion.
	And President Carter was leaving with his dignitaries, etc., in the helicopters.
	And as they were leaving, the military photographer took photographs of the helicopters leaving.
	And when she got back and analyzed the photographs and had them developed, you know, because it took in 1977, so it's pre-digital, she saw a UFO within the photograph itself.
	And you can see it on the actual photos that I analyzed.
	And it's a very strange photograph because there you have to the right-hand side in the sky, the two military helicopters in formation.
	And then ahead of them, if I've got this right, it's a few hours since I read the book, you've got this strange other thing in the sky.
	Yeah, as if it's shadow in the helicopters or shadow in the events that just happened.
	It could be either.
	And your analysis of the photograph, what did you come up with?
	Well, I came out with it, obviously, you've got to look at the source where it came from.
	So it's military side.
	It's there.
	It's there for anyone to see if they want to investigate the case themselves.
	And it was really one of the cases I wanted to put in the book under CE1 that other people haven't actually, you know, seen before.
	Well, yeah, an interesting one.
	And it was good to put a little bit of detail on all these stories that I always thought might be apocryphal about, oh, yes, Jimmy Carter saw a UFO.
	Well, in fact, there's much more to that, as you rightly say, than people know or talk about.
	An amazing story.
	Never heard of it before.
	The page 31 here.
	Here I'm dropping the book on the floor now.
	Is it page 31 or just beyond that?
	The Dr. X case, 1968 in France.
	Basically, a man who is woken by his son.
	This man, I think, had been a mayor or somebody important in a town in southeastern France.
	I'm doing this from memory.
	But he was woken by his son.
	They saw lights in the sky, two luminous objects with antennae.
	He notes down what is seen very, very meticulously.
	The craft that he sees, and I know that this is one of these cases where the craft split into two, but he sees a lower dome that looks very complex and a strange structure of luminous antennae.
	That's it, yeah.
	You know, it was in the southeast region of France in 68.
	And it's, as you said, you know, he was awoken by his son crying or making a noise.
	It went in.
	His wife was still asleep and basically saw these two craft coming in.
	And I think he was a doctor.
	He hasn't actually had his name mentioned because he obviously didn't want his name bringing out.
	But he was a doctor.
	I'm sure he was a doctor.
	And he also had after his encounter with the two UFOs, he had war injuries that he'd actually had from war injuries on his leg.
	This was the most amazing part of it, because these wounds, after this craft vanished with a sort of sonic boom or bang, he then later, with his wife, discovered that these wounds that he had on his leg had healed themselves.
	That's it.
	They'd gone completely because he didn't notice at first that it was his wife saying that he wasn't hobbling anymore.
	And, you know, and also in this case, afterwards, after the event, they had body marks left on his body where he had, and there are actual photographs of the body marks that he was left with and his son, young son.
	These were triangular marks around the navel area.
	That's it.
	He had a triangular shaped craft and his son had a circular red mark around the navel area.
	So how did he live with that experience?
	Because he documented it so well.
	And I know that he went through some emotional trauma.
	I think you describe it as a sort of mild nervous breakdown after this thing happened.
	Yeah, yeah, it affected him badly in the sense of having a nervous breakdown.
	And I think you're talking of the time period, you know, now it's more open and people will talk about experiences and things like that.
	At the time in 1968, probably up to probably the 90s, I would say, or, you know, people wouldn't really openly speak about this Type of thing, or what happened to them.
	And once again, I say once again, but we hear somebody telling a story of a craft that appears to split into two.
	In fact, we've got many cases that have been reported by the papers in this country over this year of people looking up in the sky, seeing lights or what they perceive to be craft that then divide somehow and go off in another direction at speeds that we don't quite understand, or they split into multiple parts.
	That was an early case, 1960s case, of a man reporting that this thing that he saw split into two.
	Yeah, that was an early case that had been reported.
	Obviously, it could have happened in other cases around that weren't reported.
	But I have actually analysed footage for James Gilliland at the SETI ranch near Mount Adams.
	And part of that footage, he had a craft which separated and it was flying around in a circle and then went back together again.
	So, you know, there are other cases out there too.
	We seem to be going through a bit of a UFO frenzy in the UK now.
	I was looking at the Liverpool Echo newspaper there only last week and there have been a number of cases in that one newspaper, the Liverpool Echo.
	And there was a case where people looked up in the sky and they saw coloured lights.
	And they were reported, I think, in places like Woolton and Egbeth in Liverpool.
	And this was, well, we're recording this, you know, at the back, very back end of August, just before September.
	This was, I think, about 10 days ago from when we're recording this.
	People couldn't explain what it was.
	They were reporting it to the Liverpool Echo.
	They seemed to be good observers.
	And one of the people said, we were told that there were railway workings in the area.
	You know, sometimes if people are working on tracks, you can get blue sparks where they're welding.
	But she said, you know, there was no railway near where she was.
	Yeah, it's again, you've got to, it's great if you've got a photograph or you've got something you can analyze physically.
	But, you know, when somebody comes with an account and they've got no visual or other witnesses that have seen the same thing, then you really got to sort of narrow it down to, you know, could it have been a drone or something like that?
	Because a lot of the drones being sold on the market, the open market today, they do have lights on them, LED lights, which are very bright.
	And you can see LED lights from miles away sometimes if the weather conditions are right.
	So do you think that many of these things that appear in the regional papers and the national press in this country, this has been a great year for them.
	There have been so many stories every week.
	Some of those, a lot of those could be down to drones.
	Could be.
	You know, you've got to rule these things out.
	You can't say you can't rule out that it could be a drone.
	You know, a bird obviously wouldn't have a light on it.
	So, you know, you could certainly rule a bird out.
	Aircraft, again, if it's misidentified as the altitude of the aircraft in relation to the person.
	Weather conditions can make aircraft look like they're closer or further away.
	I'm not saying that it is those things, but you've got to sort of mention them to cover what you can.
	There's a lot in this book, and it's so well put together that I've never heard of before.
	Another phenomenon you talk about is something called angel hair that is sometimes seen after incidents or sightings.
	And this is like, I don't know, like tumbleweed or cobwebs that appear to fall from the sky.
	That's it.
	Yeah, a lot of scientists who have actually had the chance to analyse this substance, whatever it is.
	It's something that's probably been discharged from the craft itself because it's either seen falling down from the sky after a sighting or it's over the trees or on the ground and it disperses very quickly.
	It's very difficult to get a sample of it.
	But scientists that have actually analysed it, it's made up of quite a few things.
	But one of the things in the one of the categories or substances in this overall substance is called boron.
	Now, boron is quite a rare thing, but it's used to insulate nuclear radio reactors.
	I was going to say that you hear about when we heard about the Chernobyl case, they talked about boron.
	Yeah.
	You know, and it's a very good compound or, you know, substance for protecting.
	So if it's in this substance that's been left behind after a sighting or a craft that's been in that area, you've got to start thinking towards is this a man-made craft?
	Is it not extraterrestrial?
	Is it human?
	Is it a secret covert project aircraft as such?
	You know, one thing will generally open another door to investigations.
	Or is it something that could be, I mean, there is in the military, there's chaff, isn't there, which is like bits of aluminum, aluminium foil that aircraft put out there to put the radar of chasing planes or ground radar off the scent.
	Do you think this could be a kind of extraterrestrial version of chaff?
	It could possibly, but I mean, I've seen chaff firsthand off our aircraft, and like you said, it's highly heated aluminium particles that are obviously heated and they give off a very bright light source and a heat source.
	And it's there for if they're being fired upon by missiles, so they can lock onto that rather than the heat signature coming from the tail of the aircraft itself.
	Now, Jason, until very recently, we didn't hear an awful lot about the cases of a ufological nature that occurred behind the old Iron Curtain.
	You know, it was a place, of course, of locations steeped in secrecy.
	So a lot of mysteries unfolded in those communist countries, and we never got to hear about them.
	But page 68, an absolutely intriguing one, and another case I hadn't heard about, the Dal Nogorsk UFO crash claimed of 1986, after which fragments of a most bizarre and very strange material was found, and also a kind of strange covering black film in the area.
	Yeah, again, something else that was, it was seen, you know, objects seen in that area and being uncovered.
	And, you know, there was a lot of evidence uncovered through this case itself.
	So was it an actual claimed Roswell-style crash of a craft?
	That's what's been said and reported.
	And, you know, there is a lot of information online that you can find out about this as well.
	But, you know, it's one of those cases that, you know, the craft was seen, it was witnessed by many people.
	And it's also comes under the heading of height 6111, because that's where it was actually seen on top of a mountain at 611 meters altitude.
	So it comes under that.
	And they did analyses, I think, of the material that was found, the fragments that were found, and they found literally the component parts of this material included everything, things that were not native to that area and things that were not normally found in aircraft, I think.
	That's it.
	And that's what made it such a unique case, really.
	And they did spend an awful lot of time investigating into that case in more depth, you know.
	And the fragments were covered in a strange kind of what we would call gauze, almost like the stuff that you would put, I don't know, the kind of bag you put an onion in, of that kind of structure, texture.
	Yeah, it's sort of misleading for them, and they couldn't understand why, or, you know, when they investigated into the more depth into it, it was one of those things that it baffled them, really.
	A lot of programmes on TV lately about the pyramids in Egypt and the fact that we're making constant discoveries, perhaps chambers in the Great Pyramid, all sorts of things.
	You talk about Tutankhamun's dagger.
	Again, I've never heard this.
	There's so much good stuff in this book with pictures due to the dagger that was discovered with the mummy of Tutankhamun by that gentleman whose first name was Howard.
	You'll tell me his second, Howard Carter.
	He discovered that.
	The claim is that this was extraterrestrial in origin.
	Yeah, it is a dagger that was found on the chest of the boy king himself in his tomb and taken out as part of all his possessions from Howard Carter.
	And it had been analyzed, I think it was 2000, probably top of my head, I think it was around about the year 2000.
	And it was analyzed, obviously, to the compounds that the stagger was made up of.
	And it was part made up of meteorite.
	So obviously something that fell from the sky and he's been made and it's linked to the, obviously, Boy King himself.
	And the thought that maybe, as we're coming to increasingly understand, that the ancient Egyptians knew much more about what was out in space and perhaps had contact with things that we haven't had direct contact with, you know, thousands of years before you and I. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
	Suggestion that ETs, and this is something that has been talked about by various people, claims that this was happening in Africa, for example, the claim that ETs are mining precious metals here.
	They've been using this planet to get sources of metals that they're running short on.
	For example, you talk about the extraction of liquid gold in New Zealand, for example.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, there's a lot of cases about people seeing UFOs, especially on YouTube.
	You can see an awful lot of webcams of volcanoes that are erupting around the world.
	So they're obviously active and more people are actually watching the webcams as such.
	And within these webcams, they're actually seeing UFOs around or coming out of and going into active volcanoes.
	And those things still appear.
	People say UFO seen near mountaintop.
	UFO seen semi-active volcano.
	You get that in the papers all the time, including this year.
	A great story you tell from another one from the Eastern Bloc, as was.
	Now I'm going to mispronounce the name of this place.
	I've never been able to pronounce it.
	But it's W-R-O-C-L-A-W Vrockow, I guess that's pronounced.
	But it's to do with something weird that happened in the apartment of a man called from memory Jersey Vasilevsky.
	It's a name that you can't forget.
	But something deeply weird that happened inside this man's apartment.
	Yeah, he had an experience again.
	And again, all these actual experiences throughout the book are generally under the heading of what they would, you know, would be actually described as.
	So CE1 to 7.
	And this was a CE2.
	And he had an encounter with a being that came into his apartment, his house, or, you know, where he lived.
	And the thing about this case was the actual evidence that was left afterwards where one of the tiles had actually melted, which was impossible at the time.
	The impression given that you talk about in the book is that it was something with very small and very hot feet had walked across, and we can all remember these PVC plastic style tiles that people used to have on their floors.
	We used to have them in our kitchen in Liverpool and had made an impression on those tiles, had melted them.
	Yeah, it literally left the impression and, you know, it was baffling again.
	But it was actual physical evidence of the actual encounter, what had happened, and it backed up his story of what he actually said.
	Any idea what happened after that to Jerzy Vasilewski?
	No, no, I'm not sure what happened afterwards, whether he's still actually, you know, coming out, I should actually go a bit more deeper into it.
	Just because I enjoy saying the name really.
	Better than me.
	In the book, there's a great section here.
	You probably heard me during this flipping pages.
	I'm sorry about that.
	They always say news readers, you shouldn't be heard turning the pages when you're Reading the news.
	I've never been any good at that.
	Page 110.
	Lot of images of UFOs over Poland.
	This was actually an article that was first published in the Outer Limits magazine through Chris Evers.
	And I was actually analysed by myself and through Philip Mantle.
	And it was a gentleman that had been out.
	We haven't really got to the bottom of the story, whether the person that came forward with these UFO photographs were taken by the person that came forward with the story, or it was a friend.
	He said it was a friend that took the photographs.
	So, you know, it's debatable.
	But they're actually, when I actually analyzed the photographs themselves, there are a series of photographs.
	He was in a wooded area.
	They're astonishing photographs.
	I mean, it is clearly at the edge of some woodland, and we're looking across a field.
	And then there's a series of very clear black and white photographs of what, and you tell me if I'm wrong about this, but they look like the classic sort of chandelier-shaped UFO.
	That's it, yeah.
	They were actually colour photographs.
	It's just the book was published in black and white, and they don't really give it the full justice, but you can't see, you know, it's from a distance.
	He was walking in this wooded area, stopped, saw the craft, like you describe a chandelier-type disc-shaped craft.
	Well, almost like you remember those old children's spinning tops.
	That's it, yeah.
	Exactly like that.
	You know, my grandmother in Liverpool, and I have told this story on the show before, but my grandmother was no pushover, and she certainly wasn't into UFOs.
	But this thing that you've got photographed here from Poland is what she sketched one day a long, long time ago.
	This would have been maybe, I don't know, early 70s probably.
	She was awake very early in the morning.
	She lived in Waterloo, in Liverpool, very close to the railway track, and she looked across the railway track and hovering over the railway track, was what you've got photographs of in this book in Poland.
	Yeah.
	It's a very distinct shape, isn't it?
	It's got a pointed apex at the top, you know, a dome shape at the top, and a large dome at the bottom with some sort of protrusion from the bottom.
	It's probably some sort of propulsion system.
	From your analysis of the photograph, is there any chance it could be faked?
	Not really, for the fact that there is so much really good, clear photographic evidence.
	We've also got somebody had been back to the actual site and took photographs from the same location.
	And it's in a completely open wooded area where there's one singular tall tree, which is still there.
	And there's no way above.
	You'd have to have a really big crane or something to dangle a craft or something from that.
	And there's nothing that appears like anything of a crane-like structure.
	It appears to be hanging or floating in free space.
	But by the looks of the pictures, though, it's not very high.
	Its altitude is not too great.
	It's not very high.
	And it seems to over the there's about five separate photographs.
	And what I've actually done, I've actually overlaid every single photograph from the same position, taking the trees below as a central point and the actual tall central tree where the craft is flying around.
	And you can actually see that it's moved position, you know, within that area.
	But it stayed very close as if using the tree top as some sort of camouflage, maybe.
	Now, this particular kind of UFO is often reported as spinning and exhibiting multicoloured lights.
	Did this particular one in Poland do that?
	No, I don't think it did at the time, but looking at the obviously the photographs, whether it was on the actual colour, the detail that was brought out was quite amazing, really, when they were analysed.
	And, you know, I believe there was certainly an object there.
	We can definitely say there was an object there.
	You know, whether it was man-made, whether it was E.T., extraterrestrial, we don't know.
	So it really goes, you know, down as an unidentified craft, really.
	But your breakdown of this photograph and the blow-up on page, what page is this?
	119, I think it is.
	You have the pointed apex, the large main circular base or body, a smaller circular portion above that, maybe a crew compartment, and then beneath the spread of it, the sort of skirting area of it, you've got a smaller domed protrusion, possibly the propulsion system.
	It's very clear and very detailed.
	I didn't ask you, when was this?
	This was taken, I'm not sure if it's flipping pages.
	2018.
	This is quite recent, isn't it?
	Yeah, it was brought forward.
	I think the photographs were actually taken.
	2013.
	Yeah, 2013, a lot earlier, and it was only really brought to the fold through this guy, you know, like we said, in Poland itself.
	One of the most astonishing, one of the weirdest analyses in this great book is page 132.
	And there is this huge rectangular object that almost looks like a safe just hanging over Colorado in the 1990s.
	This is a really weird one.
	Yeah, it is.
	This was through Tom Dongo in America.
	He'd actually, he put some really fantastic images up on his web page, his Facebook page, etc.
	And this was just one that had to go in just through the unique shape, square shape, and it was giving some sort of a beam down to the ground.
	Well, that made me think that either this thing was radiating some kind of beam, as you say.
	I mean, it almost looked like the shaft that an elevator would go down.
	Or my other thought was, well, that looks like something's been overlaid to fake this photograph.
	Yeah, well, you know, I've gone into my analysis of it, and I've tried to go in, but this was on a 35-millimeter film footage format, so it's pre-digital, like we said.
	And when I actually gone through, I couldn't see anything that would give me any indications that it would have been overlaid.
	But it's certainly one of those cases.
	It comes under C1, which is your basic sighting.
	And it just seemed a really good one to put in the book for people.
	Fantastic.
	I've never seen anything like it.
	But what I thought was, well, it appeared to be hanging there in this picture.
	And it's a box.
	It looks like a safe hanging there, for want of another description.
	How aerodynamic could that be?
	Well, not in our atmosphere as such, but in outer space, it could be any shape it wanted to be because there'd be no drag on it as such.
	So it is actually hanging there, just like Doctor Who's police box.
	That's what it looks like.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And the detail, again, when you analyze it, you know, in more depth, it's just, it's one of those.
	It's really, it comes under unexplained, really, you know, for what it is.
	One of the weirdest things I've ever seen, and it's very well portrayed in the book.
	Page 142.
	After you've talked about a UFO flap involving the British military, I think in 1971, lots of radar sightings, you've got a very specific case here that I have heard reference to before, but didn't know much about.
	And you've got a lot about it here.
	This is where a bunch of Royal Marines, I think it was 1,400 troops in all, involved in an operation on Cyprus, where, of course, there was a British garrison.
	1971 is the year.
	And they all saw something that, first of all, they thought was a flare, but then they realized it couldn't possibly be a flare.
	That's it.
	It was on the 31st of May 1971.
	And it was during a night exercise where the Marines were involved with.
	And again, like you just said, they thought this object was a flare in the sky, which they would have seen plenty of.
	And it was seen by there were 1,400 men on the exercise that night.
	I'm not saying they all saw the same thing, but a good number of them did.
	And a good number of them actually took photographs.
	But there are only three photographs that are left that I actually analyzed of this, you know, object, which seemed to be a long streak of light, highly illuminated.
	And, you know, the person that took the photographs and explained it in more depth is a highly trained person, you know, to actually identify things in the sky or, you know, other warfare type of, you know, tanks, aircraft, etc.
	They were baffled by this, weren't they?
	Yeah, they were totally baffled.
	And he also met another army soldier coming in an opposite direction during the exercise.
	And he also described the seeing the same thing in the sky.
	You know, it was seen by a lot of people.
	It was photographed by a lot of people.
	But after the exercise had finished, they were all told to hand over their film or photographs that they took of this thing.
	And that's why there aren't many images of, but it's actually, you know, it's covered in great detail.
	You know, the military sometimes have a fantastic sense of humor to cope with the work that they do.
	I was lucky enough to do a very small amount of work for British forces broadcasting for a while.
	And, you know, I just love the way that they do things.
	But you describe the person who I think was in command of this operation, call sign Sonny on the radio, or Sunray, Sunray.
	Sunray, yeah.
	And Sunray said when questioned about this thing on the radio by other people, there were people listening to the radio traffic, Sunray said, well, I guess we've seen a UFO then.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Sort of blase about the whole thing.
	Very glib dismissal, but what else could you say?
	Yeah.
	Now, page 160, images from Peter Maxwell Slattery, a man I've had on my show, a man you know quite well, in Australia.
	Page 163, there's a very strange image.
	Talk to me about Peter Maxwell Slattery, who's based in Australia.
	Yeah, Peter's a good friend of mine.
	He's become a good friend through basically analyzing photographs for him.
	I first came across Peter.
	He's an experiencer.
	He's an ex-rap star himself.
	He still sings rap music.
	And I first came across Peter.
	He was having the through Mary Rodwell, a regression session he was having.
	And one thing just led to another.
	I just sort of got really into what was happening to him.
	He was always forward about what he's seen, what he's photographed, you know, the images he puts out.
	So I just believed I needed to really get involved with him, you know, and analyzing his photographs.
	And again, he's also had a lot to do with James Gilliland at the ESETI ranch because Peter runs now eSETI in Australia.
	I think Greg Sullivan does eSETI in Japan.
	So it's getting bigger itself.
	Well, if you could put me in touch with Peter, I'd love to have him back on my show because my listeners loved him and he was a great guest.
	But one of these images, the one on page 163, looks like a more ornate version of the one that we talked about from Poland.
	It's expanded.
	It looks almost like it's been like you expand a concertina.
	It looks like the same kind of craft, but it's been pulled outwards.
	There are more tiers to it.
	It does, and a lot more illuminated lights above.
	I call it the Mad Hatter hat, you know, off Alice in Wonderland.
	It looks like it's a tall, you know, or the Diddy Men.
	Remember the Diddy Method?
	For our listener in America, there was a famous British comedian, possibly the most famous of all from Liverpool, Ken Dodd.
	And he had a bunch of little kids dressed in little uniforms, and he called them the Diddy Men, and they used to dance and sing and stuff like that.
	But, you know, it's something that looks a little bit like that.
	And they wore these, some of them wore these sort of skirts, big flowing skirt type things, or trousers that look like flowing skirts.
	That's what this thing looks like.
	Do you know where this picture was taken?
	This one, I think it was taken us, is either Australia, this one, or I don't think that was actually taken at the SETI ranch.
	He has got other images within the book that I've actually analyzed for him.
	But I think this one was Australia.
	Oh, no, sorry.
	I think this might have been Las Vegas.
	Okay, there is one from Las Vegas here on the preceding page, 162, of something that looks like an old box camera there.
	Very weird box-shaped object.
	They're pretty unique.
	The variations in shapes and things like that that he actually photographs.
	I mean, there was one, for instance, where I analyzed footage for him of a craft that was descending down in between trees, and it was actually changing shape.
	It was morphing shape as it came down.
	But it's just one of many that Peter's got from, you know, Australia, Las Vegas, and, you know, especially SETI in James's ranch near Mount Adams, which is a huge UFO hotspot.
	I suppose the question that hangs over all of these things, and always will, well, until we get disclosure, if we do get it, you know, is are these interdimensional extraterrestrial craft that behave in ways that we cannot understand and are composed of materials that we don't quite grasp?
	Or do we somewhere, on some level, have back-engineered technology or other exotic technology that can do this kind of thing?
	And if we do, how would we keep that secret?
	Well, they've done a good job up to now of keeping things secret.
	You know, I believe that there are a secret covert craft and, you know, things that have gone on behind the scenes that we don't know about.
	I mean, I was involved in Desert Storm in Iraq in the early 90s with the Royal Air Force, and the first time I ever saw, or, you know, saw for myself, the stealth fighter, which is the F-17 stealth fighter, and that's triangular in shape when you look at it underneath, you know.
	And that had been kept under wraps really good until then, so...
	And that was a shape that we hadn't seen before.
	I think it was made of carbon fibre, wasn't it, which a lot of things were back then?
	Yeah.
	Dark material.
	I want to do a couple of other cases from the book before we park this.
	And thank you for giving me this time, Jason.
	I know you're busy these days.
	The Near Miss near Manchester Airport.
	Now, I seem to have a dim memory of this in 1995, but it was one of those news stories that came and went.
	But it was a very detailed report.
	I think it was a British Airways plane.
	Triangular object appeared very, very close to the plane.
	In fact, it was rated, I think, by the crew as a moderate risk.
	So it was the kind of thing that was way too close for comfort.
	Of course, it had to be investigated, and it was rated at the end of it all as unidentified.
	Talk to me about this case.
	Yeah, and I remember this case as to, you know, to in the UK.
	It was actually put in the media at the time.
	It was all over the newspapers, you know.
	And it was a British Airways Boeing 737.
	And I think the flight number 5061.
	And it was on the approach coming in from Milan to Manchester Airport over the Pennines.
	And it was about 13,000 feet up on his last approach into Manchester itself.
	And they were basically buzzed by a small triangular-shaped craft, like a dart shape, as they described it.
	And it just missed.
	They radioed in, obviously, to find out if there were any other aircraft around that could have, you know, been on a collision course with this passenger aircraft.
	And the radar came back, said no, they hadn't seen anything.
	And it was raised through the proper channels afterwards, through an air misreport.
	It was raised through Philip Mantle, who actually gave me a lot of really good documents relating to this.
	You reproduced the letters to the airline, for example, because I think Philip wanted to talk to the pilots.
	I don't think he got to.
	And also to the Ministry of Defence.
	I think there were some responses from them, too.
	That's it, yeah.
	You've got all the, you know, documents right the way through from the MOD, British Airways, the basic air reports of the air misreports.
	And, you know, there's a lot of stuff here that actually, you know, say this incident happened, you know, especially the two pilots or the pilot and the team.
	his co-pilot witnessed this event so um you know it was another one that really I think needed to go in there under C1.
	Page 182 of the book, something I have personal experience of, I believe, men in black.
	Now, I've told the story, and I think I've told you this story, I've told it on this show quite a few times before, of how I'd interviewed Paul Hellier, the former Canadian Defense Minister, who believes that, you know, UFOs are, to paraphrase it really, you know, are real effectively, and said so for a man in his position to say that and keep saying it was quite extraordinary.
	So I'd interviewed him on TalkSport years ago, radio.
	And a couple of weeks after that, I came out of the building.
	We'd done a lot of UFO stuff.
	Came out of the building.
	Now, TalkSport used to be, this is the radio station where The Unexplained started back in 2004.
	It was based on a street in London called Hatfields, where nothing happened at the weekend.
	So Saturday night as it was then, you know, there was never anybody around.
	When you come out, it was nearly midnight.
	And one of these nights, I came out with Dave Brain, my producer who now works with Chris Evans on Virgin Radio in the UK.
	Dave and I came out of the building and Dave said, have a look at that.
	And opposite was a black Jaguar car.
	In the front seat were two guys in identical black suits with white shirts.
	They looked like the Blues brothers.
	And they had a camera mounted on the dashboard, a big one, that followed us down the street.
	Now, I have never been sure of what that was, but I have a feeling that we were being checked out.
	Yeah, it sounds your typical man-in-black, men-in-black incident, you know, that's been reported worldwide by, you know, a lot of people that have seen UFOs and generally afterwards, or, you know, they'll get a visit from the men in black.
	Well, it was the most bizarre thing, though, because they were dev.
	These two guys, I'll never know who they were, and I wasn't mindful enough to actually make a note of the registration number of this black Jaguar, but it was an unusual car, and they were two unusual people in the dead of night.
	And they had a camera, and it followed us from the exit of the building on Hatfield down a ways.
	And it was just, it was strange.
	And I just, in my heart of hearts, I thought, we are being checked out and MIBs are real.
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, people haven't just seen men in black as such.
	They've seen children with black eyes, you know, people that have knocked on the doors with black eyes, generally after sightings or experiences.
	And my father had an experience in Liverpool with a man in black when he was a young boy in Liverpool.
	Yeah, and that's what I've wrote in the book, his case, and that's under C5.
	And basically, I didn't know about this incident that happened to him until probably a few years into me actually getting into ethology into a much, you know, deeper territory as such.
	And I was with him, and he just came out with it one day and said, oh, when I was a young boy, I was playing in the hallway.
	This was before TV, etc.
	They just had a radio playing in the front room where my relatives were sitting.
	And he was running in out of the front room, into the hallway, down this long hallway at the front door at the end where the stairs led up to the right-hand side, coming through the door.
	And as he came into the hallway, he said he saw this large, to him, large, dark being, you know, a shaped man wearing a suit and a trilby hat and a real funny face, he said.
	And he materialized straight through the front door.
	My God.
	Classic fighting, classic image.
	Yeah, and stood there right in front of him.
	He was obviously mesmerized by this person or being.
	And the person beckoned him to follow him up the stairs, which of course he didn't.
	He didn't about turn and ran back into the front room and said what he saw to my relatives sat in the other room.
	I presume they just didn't believe him.
	No, they didn't believe him at all.
	And then he ran back into the hallway, or I wouldn't say ran back into the hallway, probably edged his way back into the hallway to see if this figure was still there, which it had gone by then.
	So, yeah, it was a weird thing.
	You know, your father, my grandmother, and so many thousands and thousands and thousands of other people around the world.
	Last case I want to talk about, and it's one of the weirdest in the book.
	And like I said, it's a great book.
	It is an absolutely required read, I think.
	Page 202.
	Very weird, transparent, amoeba-shaped UFO in Arizona that you do an analysis on.
	Yeah, that was another one through Tom Dongo in the United States.
	And it basically was a type of craft that I've never seen before myself.
	And this one was actually, it's been looked over by so many people over the years.
	In Arizona, it was taken.
	And it's a strange...
	It looks like that in the sky.
	Yeah, yeah.
	And it was during the 1950s, you know, and it's strange.
	It's certainly strange.
	And it's been used in conferences and presentations by other ufologists over the years.
	And to be fair, I'd never seen it before myself until analyzing it.
	And I wanted it to be under C1 again, which is, you know, a sighting.
	And it basically is unexplained.
	Wow.
	We've covered a lot of territory.
	The book is called The Ufology Umbrella.
	Close Encounters Are Not.
	Why Close Encounters Are Not Enough, by the way?
	Just basically play on words to the Close Encounters of the Catalog.
	Because this is much more than Close Encounters.
	Great book.
	Fantastic.
	And, you know, looking at this book, you're constantly getting reports.
	You're constantly researching.
	So this could be the first of a series, couldn't it?
	Oh, yeah, I could keep writing books on any subject within UFology, really, because there are so many.
	Are you still accepting people's?
	Because I get people sometimes saying, would Jason Gleaves look at this image?
	Are you still accepting people's images?
	Do you have time?
	Yeah, on a daily basis.
	It's growing.
	You know, I'll always analyze whatever I can for anybody.
	I don't charge anybody, anyone to do it because I believe everybody, you know, whether you've got money or you haven't got money, you should be entitled to the same sort of service.
	You know, I'd like if it would happen to me, so that's why I'd repay.
	Well, that's fantastic.
	If people want to contact you, see about your work, what's your position online?
	If anybody wants to contact me with sightings or images or footage that they would like analyze, they can contact me through the Facebook page, UFonly.
	It's on Twitter as well.
	I'll always get back to them eventually if I can't straight away.
	If I can't help them, I can certainly put them in the right direction to where they can get help.
	Well, that's right.
	That's UFO N L Y, U F only.
	That's right, yeah.
	Congratulations, Jason.
	It's going to be, well, it probably is already a big seller.
	It's a fantastic book.
	If you've never read a book about UFOs and ufology before.
	Here's where to start, I would say.
	Well done.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Jason Gleaves, very proud of him and what he's achieved.
	The book is called The Ufology Umbrella: Close Encounters Are Not Enough.
	And I totally, thoroughly, completely recommend this.
	Especially if you're new to all of this, then it will be a big helper for you.
	But even if you're not, you're going to be amazed at the detail he's gone into in this book.
	So well done, Jason Gleaves.
	He will return to this show.
	More great guests in the pipeline here at The Unexplained.
	So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
	I am in London.
	This has been The Unexplained Online.
	And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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