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March 11, 2019 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:13:34
Edition 386 - Brian Allan

Scottish researcher Brian J Allan on "Project Phenomena"

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
Well, you might remember the last time I spoke to you, the weather was really good here.
It was the end of February, and we were having like early summer, late spring temperatures, clear blue skies.
I was going out on my bike every day.
It was fantastic.
Temperatures hit 70 Fahrenheit, 21 degrees Celsius in my area.
Pretty damn good.
Things have settled down a bit now, so it's a little colder and the cloud has returned.
But it was nice, as they say, while it lasted.
Thank you very much for all of your emails, by the way.
I do get to see all of your emails as they come in.
If you want to get in touch with me, please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
Go to the website, theunexplained.tv, and you can follow the link to me and send me an email from there.
If you are still getting problems with receiving the shows, downloading them, anything to do with the website, you can also email the webmaster, Adam, that's Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot, through the website there, and he will sort out any issues that you might have.
I think those issues are diminishing.
I'm still not seeing the My Story and Guest Suggestion email.
So if you've used the contact form for those, I'm not getting them.
But Adam tells me they're aggregating and he will send them to me.
So the best way to contact me with anything at the moment is to just use the segment that allows you to email me, mail at the unexplained.tv.
But that's on the website.
It's mail at the unexplained.tv.
That comes straight through to me.
And I see all the email and anything that needs a response automatically gets one from me.
Roger, nice to hear from you.
Talking about the show that we did with Julian Crane and Felicity Elliott about the Mitrea.
Apparently, Roger went to see Benjamin Crane 40 years ago or so, the man who started all of this and had the first contact.
Roger was interested, and thank you for your email, Roger, that one of the things that Julian and Felicity didn't say was that there was supposed to be a sort of contact or declaration day where the Maitreya, supposedly somebody with the power to help us all out of our current problems, would actually come out and go on international television and reveal himself.
Apparently, that appears according to the recording of the interview that we did.
That wasn't mentioned, and maybe the time scale for that has been put back, or maybe that idea has been dropped.
There was a certain amount of adverse email about Julian and Felicity, who I thought were two very nice people.
And, you know, I agree, we need to hear more information, and we need more proof that this is so.
And it's not for me, and it's not for you to say it isn't so.
But in the absence of any proof, how can we possibly say that it is?
But that's the whole point of doing a show like this.
So, you know, people who are critical, I hope you understand that the show is called The Unexplained.
So we do stuff like that from time to time.
But, you know, I want to get more proof that if this person exists, I call him a person, this being exists, then I think maybe it's about time that he or she or it was showing him or herself.
Enrico, suggesting Joseph P. Farrell, thank you for your email.
We've had him on the show, but we will have him on again.
Anthony in Toronto, Canada, thank you very much.
Nice to hear from you.
Anthony, in one of those days, or one of these days, I will get across to Toronto.
I want to see Canada.
Ian and Murray, nice to hear from you.
And also Clive.
Thank you very much for your email.
Clive, originally from London, now in Hawke's Bay, New Zealand, would like me to say hello to his son.
They are both fans of the unexplained.
And your son's name is Callum.
Callum, I'm delighted that you like the show and you listen with your dad.
And thank you very much for being part of it, Callum.
And you wanted to shout out, or your dad wanted to shout out for you on the show.
So there it is, Callum in New Zealand.
And Clive, nice to hear from you too.
If you want to get in touch with me and email me, it is through the website theunexplained.tv.
And it's always good to hear from you.
Thank you very much for your feedback.
You know that I need that.
It is the lifeblood of this show.
Guest on this edition, Scottish paranormal investigator Brian Allen.
Project Phenomena is a book that he's just put together with a team of people who are, in terms of paranormal research, pretty much at the top of their game.
There are some astonishing stories in that book, Project Phenomena.
So we're going to hear from Brian Allen in Central Scotland in just a moment from now.
Like I say, the one-stop shop for getting in touch with me is the website, vunexplained.tv.
Please email me through there and let me know what you think about the show, how it can be improved, how you think we're doing with it, any ideas that you might have for it.
Vunexplained.tv.
That's the website.
Okay, let's get to Central Scotland now and speak with Brian Allen.
And we're going to be talking about the book Project Phenomena.
Brian, thank you very much for coming on my show.
Thank you very much for having me.
Delighted to be here.
Whereabouts are you, Brian?
Where am I speaking to you from?
I am located in a little village called Kincardon on Forth, which as the name suggests, is right on the River Forth, the North Bank, roughly situated somewhere between Glasgow and Edinburgh.
The population of the village, I guess, is about 7,000 or 8,000.
It's not a big place at all.
Okay, but is it replete with paranormality?
Tell me it is.
We had a couple of cases when I used to actually go out investigating this stuff firsthand.
The local community hall, there was stuff happening there.
There was stuff getting launched off the walls and stuff of the kind, stuff of that kind.
And there was a brand new house that seemed to have something walking about upstairs.
And I had occasion to use that, do an EVP on that, and get some sort of response.
And I asked it very politely to leave.
Well, not very politely in point of fact.
I asked it to leave and apparently it did.
But the only other place that I've had issues is where I'm living now and that was entirely my own fault.
Your own fault?
Entirely my own fault.
Once I brought stuff home with me from a case I'd been on and it seemed to like the place and again I had to ask it in no uncertain terms to leave.
And the second time it was extremely unsettling because it was based on one of the books I'd been writing.
If I remember rightly, I think it was The Dark Messiah, and I'd been studying, I'd spent a couple of weeks looking into the Black Mass because I was doing a chapter on it.
And Nietzsche actually encompassed this pretty well because he said, battle not with monsters, lest you become a monster.
And if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
And the problem was, I'd been looking into the abyss, and the abyss had obviously seen me.
And something in it popped in to sort of pay a visit.
And it kept us awake.
Well, it woke us up in the early hours, and we could hear it scratching around, bumping around into furniture.
All sorts of stuff going on.
It's scratching on the walls, scratching the floor, scratching on the ceiling.
And in the morning, in the morning, when my wife went to work, I got up and I cleansed the house and we've had no problems ever since.
You know, I've heard this an awful lot from people who do investigations, that you have to be a little bit careful in case you bring any artifacts, and I'm talking about psychical ones, back with you from those investigations.
You have to be terribly careful that you don't find yourself haunted after you've done an investigation into a haunting.
Oh, yeah, well, the only time that, well, the time that this actually happened, it manifested as a stench.
But how it happened was it was a case that I'd been working on over in a little village called Dune, quite a picturesque place.
And it was an old hotel called the Highland Hotel.
And we'd been in there, and the thing actually latched onto me after I'd been interviewing the woman that owned the place.
And I was sitting in her quarters, and it was actually in her office in point, in fact, and her brother was sitting beside me.
One of the other workers was sitting on a settee on the right-hand side, and she was sitting facing me.
And I was talking to her.
And at the back of her, over her left shoulder in the corner, I could see something starting to take shape, a form, almost like one of these shadow people, I think you would call it, for want of a better word.
It was six or seven foot tall, humanoid, dark.
And I knew it was trying to come through, whatever this thing was.
And the other thing that happened was it happened instantaneously.
And it was two things happened together.
The sound quality changed and the temperature in the room plummeted.
Now, this was in January or February, and it was bitterly cold, and the central heating was on.
And we went into her office to chat.
The heating was on, it was warm, it was comfortable, there was a fire on.
And as I say, the temperature plummeted, the sound quality changed to an odd echoey quality, and this thing started to appear behind her.
So I asked it to leave.
I didn't go up and make a first.
I just said in my head, look, I'm not ready for this.
This is not the time.
Please go.
And it did.
And the temperature came up and the sound returned to normal.
And I said to the people in the room, the guy that was sitting beside me, I said, did you notice anything different?
Yeah, he said, the sound quality changed and the temperature dropped.
And I said, anybody else?
And the girl that would be sitting over on the other couch, she said, yeah, she said, I noticed a difference in the temperature, but she didn't hear anything in the sound.
But nobody else except me saw this thing manifesting at the back of her.
So it was just after that that something in the room, maybe that for all I know, had lashed itself onto me.
But we had a fairly successful outcome with that particular case because I took across a couple of mediums I'd been working with, quite good ones that I'd been working with at the time, and they said that whatever was causing the problem, this dated back from about the 1700s,
and apparently a girl had become pregnant and she hated, and at the time you just didn't become pregnant then without being married because it just wasn't the dumb thing, especially in parochial Scotland.
So what happened was she hated her father with a passion, but she'd actually killed, she'd actually died, she'd fallen down the stairs and she'd died on the stairs.
But she hated her father so passionately that she wouldn't leave.
So what happened was, and this was my first real brush, if you like, with the paranormal.
It was extremely intense.
Now, on the same staircase the mediums said this was a locust in the house.
I stood in the middle of the staircase.
One of the mediums stood at the top and the other one stood at the bottom.
And she said, what I'm going to do, she said, I'm going to, oh, sorry, beg your pardon.
As I was standing on the staircase, the medium made a summer, she just did something.
And all of a sudden, a wind started to blow down the staircase and it was bitterly cold.
Every exposed centimetre of skin in my body was prickling with a thousand tiny needles getting stuck into it.
And I said, wow, I said, yeah, she said, if she could, she'd push us off the staircase.
So she said, I'll try and intensify this.
So she made us a gesture with her hands.
And this breeze became an absolute wind howling down the staircase.
She said, I'll back it off now.
And she did.
So what she said then was, I'm going to try and send her away.
I'm going to send my guys to take her away.
And what I'm going to do is I'm going to try and reunite her with the spirit of the dead baby that she lost.
Because she had an abortion.
She was made to have an abortion to get rid of this kid.
Because like I said, the actual ignominy of having a child at a wedlock was just unconscionable.
So they made her have an abortion.
She got rid of the kid.
So the medium decided that, as I said, that she was reunited with the spirit of the dead child.
And she started to do this.
And she didn't have to tell me that it had gone because all of a sudden, this tension had built up in the staircase, it was just like somebody breathing out and going, whoo, like that.
You felt the tension go.
The wind stopped in the staircase and the temperature of which had dropped like a stone came back up to normal.
And before the medium said, that's a reunited with the baby and she's gone.
I knew it.
I felt it go.
I felt her go.
So that was my first real encounter with the paranormal, if you like.
Well, we've got stuck into the conversation far faster than I Expected to.
But clearly, from what you say, you are in absolutely no doubt, and certainly from the book that I've been reading through today, you're in absolutely doubt that among us walk all manner of entities and spirits, if you want to call them that, and strange artifacts.
Yeah, oh, yeah, absolutely.
Of that, there is no doubt.
We live in a multi-dimensional universe, and we happen to live in one particular sliver or one dimension, and there's dimensions above and dimensions below.
And sometimes we can interact with them, sometimes we can't.
But I'm an absolute believer in the afterlife, 100% sure.
But as you probably noticed from the book, we do try, or in the book I try, to take a scientific look at it because I think one of the chapters is actually called the, I think it's called, I'm just having a look with the chapters, you know, the photics of the paranormal.
Because believe me, I can't remember all this stuff because there'll be so much stuff whizzing around in my head.
I've written 12 books after all, and I can't sort of bring them all to memory immediately because they're all about different things.
But you know what, Brian, the title of this one is particularly gripping because it is simply Project Phenomena.
Now, that could almost be a movie.
Well, please, God.
All right.
But look, first things first, though, before we go any further, can I just make sure that you're as close to that microphone that you're doing this to as you can be?
I'm getting a certain amount of it's not the microphone that's bad.
I'm getting a lot of echo from your room, reverberation.
Okay.
Okay.
I'll bring it around the side.
Afraid we can hear you doing this.
It's very exciting.
Yeah.
Well, what I'm doing, I'm holding.
Oh, that's better.
Is that better now?
Okay.
That's way better.
It's just going to give you, you know, a better chance of being heard.
And we wouldn't want you not to be heard because there are some great stories that we're going to get into in this.
Sounds good to me, yeah.
I'm now holding the monitor as I would as if it was like a head mic.
Okay, well, as long as that's not uncomfortable and as long as it's, you know, it's not a difficult thing for you to do, that would be great.
Okay, the book is called Project Phenomenon.
This is, in a way, almost like, it seems to me, the culmination of what you say is 50 years of research in all of this.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I've been doing this for a long time.
I started off, believe it or not, when I was about two years old.
And that was when I had my first encounter with something.
Do you want me to tell you about it?
Yeah, no, I think we have to go all the way back.
So let's do it.
Okay, okay.
In my room at the time, in the house I was living, I was two years old.
I was actually lying in a cot, believe it, and this image will never leave my mind, ever.
It's burned, it's branded into my brain.
I woke up and I was lying on my side in the court looking out through the bars and about six feet from me was...
He was a professional musician.
And he had a baby grand piano in the house.
And this thing was, this monster was sort of in the bedroom with me.
Well, this particular morning, I woke up.
It was a bright, sunny morning.
The sun was streaming down the window, which is the foot of the bed.
It was streaming past the cot.
And between me and the grand piano, there was something standing there.
It was dressed in a one-piece.
I think I can see this as if it was happening yesterday.
It was dressed in a one-piece green suit.
Its arms are folded, had a very elaborate belt on.
And I say it was one piece, the material covered the feet as well.
Now, I couldn't quite see the face because I didn't feel I wanted to look at the face, but this thing was watching me.
There's no two ways about it.
I closed my eyes, opened them, closed my eyes, and opened them.
And this thing was just standing there between me and the piano watching me.
And the thing was, I wasn't afraid of this, but I wasn't frightened of it.
And I just, I closed my eyes again, opened them, it was still there.
Then I went back to sleep, simply as kids do.
And when I woke up, it had gone.
And it was about this time, oddly enough, again, again, just a few days later, in point of fact, that I had dreamed what can only be called a UFO.
Now, this is, I'm going back when I was, well, let me think, I was born in 44.
So that'd be 1940, 1946, 47, about that time, 1947.
But you're saying that the experience that you've just documented, you've just recounted, happened when you were two.
I've got to tell you, I can remember nothing from the age of two.
Well, that is the only reason I can remember from that age because that incident is absolutely branded into my brain.
And what is it you think you saw?
I mean, looking at it with an adult's mind now.
With an adult's mind?
Well, based on what happened a couple of nights later when this powerful dream of a UFO, because in retrospect, that's exactly what it was.
Because it couldn't have been anything else, because it was the traditional sorcerer-shaped UFO.
And this is before UFOs were common knowledge, were common in the media and all over the place.
There were no images of UFOs.
And I saw this in my mind's eye, and it was coming for me.
It was coming to contact me.
I'm pretty sure that whatever that thing was that I saw between me and the piano when I was lying in my cot, I think it was connected to this UFO, for want of a better word.
And in that respect, I think I've been in contact with these things since the year, versus just after I was born, which is why I think that I've had so many, if you like, involuntary experiences throughout my life.
And what did your parents, did you tell your parent when you were able to?
Did you tell your parents about this?
No, I didn't.
I didn't, it just didn't, it literally didn't occur to me.
So I never ever, never ever told them about that.
But I never forgot about it.
But I've had odd occurrences through my life.
I mean, I remember, this is quite jocular, I suppose, really.
I was standing, my family and I, well, this is after I was married.
The kids were only young, they were only toddlers, and we were on a caravan site on a holiday.
And I got up, you know, for a P, to be quite frank.
And I was standing because this is before caravans were all possession, had the built-in toilet sort of thing, you know.
And I went to the local, you know, the toilet, which is only about literally at the side of the caravan.
So I was standing in there and I was doing the necessary.
And a woman's voice spoke to me in my left ear and it said, Brian.
And for some reason, I went, yeah, yeah, I'll be there in a minute.
Then I went, whoa, you know, whoa.
And I just ignored it.
Then the voice said again, Brian.
And I ignored it and said, Brian, as if it was really trying to attract my attention.
So I finished my business and I got out of that place as quickly as I could.
As he would.
As I did.
But I've had this sort of thing all my life.
Okay.
No, it's one thing to have experiences.
And a lot of people have them from childhood, maybe not from the age of two, and maybe not as consistently as you.
It is another thing to actually decide, okay, I want to investigate these things.
Because we have to say that the book we're going to be talking about and the research that's in this book, it's not just you who are involved in this.
It is you and a team of other people, at least one of whom is very well known.
In fact, two of whom are pretty well known.
Yeah.
Yeah, younger.
Well, okay.
I take it Steve Mira is one of them, yeah.
Well, Steve Mira is somebody that I've spoken to on the show a couple of times.
Talk to me about Steve Mira and how you got involved with him as regards this book.
Well, it's a bit of a backdoor thing.
What happened was I was editing a bookshelf magazine, a bookstall magazine called Paranormal.
And it was taken over by a guy, Dave Franklin.
And I was working at the time, I was collaborating with a guy called Phil Gardner.
He used to run a show called Gardner's World on one of the satellite channels.
And I knew Phil quite well.
So he was a friend of Dave Franklin's.
And Dave Franklin had just bought the title.
So I got phoned up one night.
You know, I'd just gone to bed.
I've got an offer for you.
I said, well, yeah.
What is it?
He said, do you want to edit Paranormal Magazine?
And I went, what?
He says, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So do you want to do it?
Yes or no?
I said, well, yeah.
Well, he says, you've got the gig.
So this was 11 o'clock at night.
I tried to go back to sleep, couldn't.
So I got up thinking, I've got a magazine against thinking.
I've got, you know, there was no material, there was nothing.
So I got up at like 11 o'clock, well, half 11, 12 o'clock time.
I got the computer out and I started emailing people saying, could you do an article?
Could you do an article?
Could you do an article?
And I spent the next four hours online trying to get people, you know, trying to get a hold of people to try and help me out to get some material for this magazine.
So as luck would have it, one of the guys that I contacted was Steve.
And Steve was doing stuff for me.
You know, he would write an article or so for me, and one of his buddies is… Well, Stephen Mira, he's a professional paranormal investigator, for want of a better word.
He is one of the most knowledgeable people I've ever come across when dealing with the subject of the paranormal.
If Steve hasn't seen it, it probably doesn't exist, to put it that way.
But he runs an organisation, amongst others, called SEP, which he founded, which is the scientific evaluation of the paranormal.
And that's based in Manchester.
And we struck up this relationship when I was editing Paranormal Magazine.
When the magazine folded, I asked him, just out of the blue, did he want me to edit, you know, to review some books from DVDs from stuff like that?
Because I had material just lying there.
He said, no, he said, I'd like you to come on board as the deputy editor.
I said, oh, well, okay, fair enough.
That'll do for me.
Then within two or three issues, he said, well, look, he said, I like what you're doing.
Do you want to be the editor?
Then I can move to other things.
I said, yeah.
So for the past seven years, seven and a half years, I've actually been editing Phenomena magazine.
And the readership has gone up and up and up.
And currently, we've got a readership of about 2 million worldwide, you know, per issue.
And that just kind of indicates the huge international interest which I'm aware of in all of these things.
So that's Steve Mira.
There is somebody else called Nick Kyle involved in this book.
And Nick Kyle, according to what you say in the book, was involved in the famous Scholl experiment.
Now, this was an experiment where a bunch of people locked themselves in a room, I think, and tried to prove paranormality existed.
I think they had some film inside a sealed box and images imprinted themselves, they say, upon the film.
Well, yeah.
Among other things.
Yeah, amongst other things.
Well, I'll talk about that in a second because there was something there that just proves that there is a crossover between ufology and the paranormal without a shadow of a doubt.
And now, for me to say that in some areas of the UFO community is an absolute heresy.
Well, for some people, that's absolute sacrilege, isn't it?
Because they do not see those things as being connected in any way.
But they are intimately, but that's something I can get into shortly.
But Nick Kyle, he was a long-term investigator, a serious investigator of the paranormal.
He was the chairman of the Scottish branch of the SPR, which is the SSPR, the Scottish Society for Paranormal Research.
He's only recently resigned from that post because I think the membership was gone down a bit.
So he got out of that.
But Nick is a very, very serious investigator of the paranormal who will provide you reams and reams of evidence of its reality.
This is no imagination.
This is absolutely real.
But Nick, absolutely a good guy.
He's a nice guy to talk to.
He knows his stuff.
And he's always there if I need advice or another point of view or another take on something.
And then another collaborator, then, apart from Nick Kyle, is Don Phillips.
Now, reading through the book, Don Phillips seems to be notable for the fact that he seems to, he says, and you say, Be able to communicate with an entity that he's named Becky, who seems to have some knowledge of the future, amongst other things.
Now, if you've read the book, you'll also be aware, Howard, that I have my doubts about Becky.
Not that it doesn't exist, because I've no doubt that it does, but what it is is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Because I've had this argument with Don.
Steve Mira has had this argument with Don.
And I think Nick Kyle has also expressed reservations about this entity.
Because any entity that it doesn't say that it's angelic, but it implies that it is.
It very clearly implies that it is.
And any entity that implies that it's angelic almost certainly isn't, I would say.
And what about this apparent precognition that Becky appears to have, this knowledge of the future?
Yeah, yeah.
How does that work?
Well, you tell me, because I certainly don't know.
I would say that it's so easy, once you get into some areas of the paranormal or supernatural or whatever, to realize that once you start looking at some aspects of quantum physics, that the two start to link very, very closely.
Because perhaps this Becky has access to what I think is called the many worlds theory, where everything exists as a set of probabilities.
And if you do something, there is a complete, almost an unlimited number of things that can happen.
For example, you lift a cup, you take a drink, you put it down.
In another reality, you lift a cup and you put it down.
In another reality, you don't pick up the cup at all.
In another reality, you pick up the cup and spill it.
So I can't remember who actually came up with this, but they call it the many worlds theory.
Whereas there are an unlimited number of possibilities of what can happen.
So it's quite possible that if this Becky is what it claims to be, well, there's no doubt that it exists because I've Skyped it, believe it or not.
I've actually spoken to this Becky before.
Yes, there is this.
I mean, I did a journalist speed read on the book, but there was a whole chapter about you.
Well, there's a big section about you Skyping this entity.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
How do you...
It's crazy.
If, if, I'm being serious here.
Oh, yeah, I guess it could if it could pay for it.
So how did you, but how did the entity get involved in your Skype call?
Okay, okay.
Big story.
Big story, okay.
This was via Don Phillips, okay?
Now, Don, sometimes this thing, there's direct voice, okay?
In other words, it can speak out of mid-air, right?
You can actually hear it talking right in your ear, okay?
It's talking to you.
But most of the time, when Don talks to it, he talks it via Olympus digital recorders.
And you can sometimes hear the voice coming back as you're talking to me and I'm talking to you.
It's that clear.
Okay, the voice that comes back.
And you're sure that he's not doing ventriloquism?
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Now, this Skype call, it happened that Steve and I had written up a series of questions to ask this Becky.
Now, don't ask me what they are.
I can't remember offhand.
But basically, it was to demonstrate what it could do, for want of a better, where it came from.
Now, one of the questions I asked during the Skype call, when you had me, Steve, and Don Phillips and Becky were all sharing the same Skype.
Becky was with, for want of a better, with Don, who was speaking to it via the digital recorder.
And I asked a question, I said, was there a spirit world before the Big Bang?
Right?
Which seemed to be, well, let's see where that goes.
And the answer that came back, and I heard this, was there was a lot of fighting, was what came back.
Now, as soon as I heard that, this put the hackles up on the back of my neck.
Because you start talking about things like biblical things, like there was a war in heaven, right?
When Satan get cast out and all the rest of it, and all that good stuff happened.
But she said there was a lot of fighting, and this suggested to me about the war in heaven, about Satan being cast out and all the rest of it.
So I started to go down this line.
I said, I mentioned the Watchers.
I said, are you connected to the Nephilim?
And the answer that came back was a bit infuriating.
The answer I got back was, you're on the right lines.
But it wouldn't say any more than that.
And you weren't hearing this.
You were seeing this written down, were you?
Oh, no, no, no.
I was hearing it.
I was hearing it.
I was actually hearing this.
What was that voice like?
Muffled.
It was female.
It was muffled and quite faint.
But it was definitely a voice that was responding to me.
But the annoying thing about Becky, because there's more than Becky, you know, Dawn's involved with more things than Becky.
I can assure you of this.
And it's hard to describe.
But were you able to...
But I would be wanting to put to Becky, if I was in contact with Becky on a Skype call, some specific questions about, you know, where are you located and what do you think is going on with the world from your standpoint?
It won't answer.
Some questions it just won't answer.
It'll either give oblique answers or it won't answer at all.
That's it.
Because they apparently, we're starting to go down quite a blind alley here because there is no end to this particular one because you just hit a wall eventually.
Becky is actually controlled by, and this again is going to sound crazy because I think I mentioned them in the book, these things called Leitertons or Leitertons.
Okay.
Now, Don is talking, I've never heard them do this, but whenever these Leitertons start talking, they literally blast everything else off the recorder and their voices come roaring through.
Now, they seem to be the gatekeepers of what is permissible and not permissible to be said by the entities that Don is talking to.
So, in other words, somebody is calling all the shots.
We don't have to call it God, but there is some higher power.
And let's just get the situation clear: you have a Skype session up on a recorder, there's a bunch of you, and you are on a computer rather, there's a bunch of you, and you're recording all of this on a standard digital recorder.
Well, I wasn't recording.
I mean, I didn't record any of this.
It was just a normal Skype call.
But the digital recorder was getting used by Don to talk to Becky.
He was relaying the questions to Becky, and this Becky was answering via the digital recorder.
But at some point, you said you heard the voice.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah, of course he did.
Because he was replaying into the mic that he was using.
Oh, yeah, sorry, I misunderstood.
I see.
So you were only hearing this, which is quite normal for so-called EVPs.
You were only hearing the answers to the questions and the points being made on replay.
Yes, that is correct.
And it was a strange, disembodied, muffled voice.
And as far as you could see, there was nothing that was inputting into the recorder that could be creating that in a kind of artificial way.
Absolutely not.
No.
Don, Don, for all his failings, is absolutely honest about this.
I mean, it would serve him no good to fake this because if he was caught faking it, his credibility would go, everything would go with it.
When did all this happen?
Oh, a couple of years ago, I guess.
Before I started writing the book, in point of fact.
All right, well, I think we need to get into the book now.
We've established the cast of characters here, your collaborators in all of this.
And you roll out...
It did for me, anyway, all the more enjoyable.
Close to the beginning of the book, first of all, you have some remarks to say about orthodox scientists and how a lot of these people, some of whom are very famous, you know, just out of hand rule out there being a possibility that anything of this kind could exist.
So you make it very clear what you feel about that.
Oh, yeah.
And then you go to tell some stories, one of which is from 1998, 20 years ago, 21 years ago, The Stockport Poltergeist.
Yeah, yeah.
Which is an astonishing story.
This is a family.
They got to the stage where it was so bad for them that they had to barricade themselves into their bedroom.
Talk to me about that.
Yeah.
Well, it is what it is.
They were being attacked, for want of a better word.
In many ways, it reminded me a bit of the Enfield Pulsar Geist case.
And they were being attacked by something in the house and they just couldn't get rid of it at the time.
So rather than leave the house, they were having to barricade themselves in the bedroom or whatever when this thing decided it was going to pay them a visit or start messing them around a bit.
But it was typical of all Paul Turge cases.
They're completely random, malicious, and spiteful.
There's absolutely no point to them.
It's almost as if it's a vexation factor involved in here.
You could almost liken these things, because I think there's different cases of Paul Turge, there are different categories of them as well.
You get them, they're almost act like psychic vampires.
They are actually winding people up as if they were feeding on the fear, feeding on the negativity that's getting generated by their actions.
Well, I mean, that certainly was, you know, I've interviewed Guy Lion Playfair.
I went to his home and spoke to him about the Enfield poltergeist.
He was the main investigator of that.
Absolutely.
This is a very chilling story, beautifully written, too, the way that you account for it in the book.
One of the family members, Julie, was barricaded into this bedroom as they were at night.
They were under siege effectively.
But Julie couldn't wait to go to the lavatory until morning time, needed to use the bathroom.
So her mother moved the furniture away from the door and opened the door.
As she peered into the hallway, and this is director in the book, she saw something absolutely terrifying on the staircase, a large dark figure.
Yeah.
So this is something I don't think they saw figures in.
I may be wrong about this, in the Enfield case, but here was something apparently large and malevolent in this house.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, what is a poltergeist?
I mean, how long is a piece of string?
I mean, poltergeists are all sorts of things, and there's all sorts of reasons given from how they do it.
But for all that, it could have been an example of the so-called shadow people, which you've probably come across before, I would imagine.
I mean, the shadow people, it's arguable that shadow people played some sort of part in the phenomenon, you know, the cargo cult thing when you had, you know, John Fu.
I think I've heard an entity they call John From, if I recall.
Yeah.
I think that that might have been an example of a shadow person created by the islanders themselves to justify their beliefs.
So you think this family who were effectively under siege in Stockport, South Manchester, in 1998, were partly, not only were they feeding and fueling this by their own emotional energy, but they'd also created it?
I think there may well have been something going on in the family.
I mean, I don't know the case.
I mean, I wasn't firsthand involved in the case.
I could only go with information I was able to unearth about it.
But it could be that there was issues in the family that created the situation or picked up that were generating a force field, for want of a better word, through the next five years.
Well, quite often, and certainly in the case of the Enfield situation, there's a young member of the family who seems to be the focus for all of it.
And when that person grows up or moves out, the activity dies down.
Exactly.
But the thing is, is this being generated by the person?
Is it being generated by inverted comma spirit?
Or is it something else?
Or is there a two-way traffic of some sort going on?
Precisely that, Hard.
Because one of the things that got me really interested in the subject of the paranormal, which is one of the reasons I wrote the book, in point of fact, or this particular book, was that there has to be a mechanism behind it.
for something to actually be lifted up, moved, dropped again.
Something has got to be providing the energy to do that.
Where is the energy coming from?
How is it, you know, it's not got hands and fingers and things to lift, but it's lifting things and they're being moved around.
And the really interesting thing about all this is it seems to apply to another of the phenomena associated with particle physics being the twin slit experiment.
Okay.
Now, I take it you know the twin slit experiment, yeah?
Tell me.
Okay, this is where they fire a photon, a slit, okay, a slit or two slits.
Now, depending on whether people are watching or observing the actual photon, it affects what it does.
Sometimes it behaves as a particle.
I can't remember which way this actually goes, but it's one or the other.
It doesn't really matter because the phenomena is the same.
If it's observed, it behaves in one way.
If it's not observed, it behaves in another way.
In other words, there's some sort of conscious action between the act of observing it and not observing it that makes it change what it does.
So the thing about poltergeist artefacts or artifacts that have moved through so-called poltergeist effectors, they're almost never seen taking off.
They're always seen in motion.
And when they're observed, they're dropped to the floor, usually.
So it seems to me that somehow the act of observing the phenomena stops it happening.
Which would imply that we ourselves have some kind of power.
Yeah, of course we do.
Of course we do.
Yeah, yeah.
That is why, this is why when I'm talking about the twin slit experiment and you actually watching the photon or monitoring the photon causes it to behave in one way and not monitoring on it, causes it to behave in another.
This seems to be the effect because what they do is rather than somebody physically watch these things, they put detectors at the slit.
And when the detectors are actually switched on, the photons behave in some sort of manner, in a specific manner.
But when the detectors are left in place but switched off, the photon seems to know this, that they're not switched on, and it behaves in another manner.
So we have an effect on reality.
I think Alistair Crowley actually, he summed up pretty well when he talked about magic is the act of actually affecting reality by an act of will.
And I think he was actually on the right lines there, but he was ahead of the curve, but he couldn't put a scientific explanation on it.
But if you look at particle physics, I think that particle physics must supply some of the answer to how this works.
But again, this is an absolute heresy to dive in the rule spiritualistic ways.
Well, you know, orthodox science would not look kindly on what you've just said, but a lot of people seem to be coming round to those sorts of thoughts.
Another case in the book is the Harris haunting.
This is around the same time.
It's 1996.
This is another family.
The child ends up suffering with asthma attacks.
The father gets depression.
All sorts of things are happening in the house.
A plant is flung across the room.
A television set turns itself on, changes channels.
Then, as this thing progresses, and it progresses over some time, a tall man is observed standing next to Chris's chair.
So here's another family under siege.
Absolutely.
But it's almost as if some fact, that's what you were talking about, younger children, that they seem to, I don't know, exude some sort of attraction to these things, that perhaps the family was actually instrumental in bringing this, you know, about.
Well, it doesn't seem...
Where was this?
Sorry, the Harris one thing.
Yeah.
Off the top of my head, I can't actually remember me.
I just can't remember off the top of my head.
That's okay, but you talk about it in some depth there.
And how did they resolve their issue?
Well, they contacted paranormal investigators who came along, did their thing.
What is not entirely sure, and in fact, I don't think investigators were all that sure themselves, if their intervention caused it to abate.
But abate it did eventually.
But whether that was of its own accord and it just ran its course, it's very hard to say.
But they certainly were able to record some of the phenomenas that took place in the actual dwelling.
You know, this book is a smorgasbord of cases, but they're all interesting.
And they're not ones that I've been aware of before.
There is a whole chapter about the so-called city in the sky.
And this is a military boat, military craft.
Not a big ship, I don't think, but this is off Malta.
It's some time ago, I think it's close on 70 years or so ago.
And a whole bunch of people on board the ship observed what looked like a city a mile wide in the sky.
The city was not a contemporary one.
It was from the past, it appeared to be.
It was multicolored.
And apparently, a lot of rational observers who were paid to observe actually saw this thing.
A story I've never heard of before.
The odd thing about this was it was, how can you know those rather strange camera angles you see on TV from time to time where I can't remember how they do that?
I remember seeing the scientific explanation of how this is done, you know, from a technical point of view.
But everything's absolutely perfect, but it's all very tiny.
You know, I think you've maybe seen this sort of thing.
It has something to do with the focal length of the camera and they actually show you that everything suddenly becomes like Gulliver and Gilliput.
You've got these tiny, tiny people walking about underneath you, but it's purely a camera effect that does this.
Now, this was what the people were actually seeing in the city and the sky, is that everything was crystal clear, absolutely perfect in the sky, everything in focus, but everything was tiny.
So it's almost as if this was being projected into the sky, but there are a whole bunch, we've got to be very careful about this because there are a whole bunch of natural phenomena that can explain this sort of thing.
One of the best, one of the main reasons given for this whole thing to take place was something called a Fatimargana, which is literally a projection of an image on Earth into ice crystals in the sky.
And this is seen as acting as a screen that reflects the image back down to, you know, you're actually seeing this image projected up into the sky.
it's possible under very, very rare circumstances that there can be an optical illusion.
But the only problem with this is what these people claim to have seen.
And it wasn't a British ship, I Was it an American ship?
I can't remember.
It was an American ship, yeah.
What the crew of this ship purported to have seen, claimed to have seen, was a smaller version of a city, a mile wide up in the sky, multicoloured, very clear, but a hundred years ago.
Yeah.
Not now.
But I don't think anyone was able to actually identify what the city was, where it was.
It is, but I mean, it's only feasible.
I suppose it's feasible that it was a natural phenomenon of some kind, that some city somewhere on earth, maybe either of sub-Saharan Africa, whatever, because they didn't say whether it was a particularly modern city or modern-looking city or not, as I recall.
But I seem to recall that the streets seem to be quite well laid out, that there were buildings, there was all sorts of stuff that did look like a city, but maybe not a modern city.
So it's possible that at some point on Earth there was a city that would be an exact match for that, that somehow this image was being projected up into the clouds, onto the ice crystals, and being seen at that angle by that particular ship's crew.
But that is only a wild guess because anything else would have to be sheer speculation as to how that could actually, what they were actually seeing, why it appeared to be from the past.
It could have been because the whole thing was just a bit old-fashioned.
Maybe it was needing the whole thing.
We've all been to places that are, you know, if you like, how can you put it?
they're a bit anachronist, shall we say.
They're a bit...
Well, that's what I'm trying to say.
But nobody knows.
But this is a story that you weren't personally involved in, but there are other stories that you were personally involved in.
Certainly the people in the book.
The Seattle case.
Well, I wanted to get onto that in a bit.
But what about Keith Linder?
You talk about there's a guy called Keith Linder and a house that Keith Linder is in.
And I guess you could call it a haunting, but it's some kind of possession or something.
And you detail three or four years of phenomena in this place.
So talk to me about Keith Linder's story.
That is the Seattle case.
That is the C. Yeah, it's just the way I sort of laid it out.
Yeah, the Keith Linder case is actually a suburb of Seattle called Bothel, okay?
And Keith lived there for two or three years with his then-girlfriend.
They split up as a direct result of that.
But the house they moved into in Bothel, Steve stayed there for a couple of weeks.
Steve was there twice.
Don Phillips was there twice.
Nick Kyle went and paid them a visit the second time they went across, they took Nick Kyle with them to act as, I guess, as a sort of a guarantor the whole thing was genuine.
But Keith Linder had been having this problem almost from day one that they moved in.
The keys vanished.
That was the first, the keys vanished, and they never did find them again.
But all sorts of odd things would happen.
Things would go missing.
Things would turn up again.
There was Bibles would go missing.
That was a favourite.
Well, there was a Bible that went missing, and then towards the end of this run of Phenomena, I think in 2016, it reappeared, but on fire.
That's right.
This happened twice.
Two Bibles actually vanished.
And they both, when they returned, they were actually burned.
They were actually burned from the middle out.
They'd actually been scorched really, really hot.
I mean, this is really serious stuff.
There were hallway electric lights that would explode, bedroom door exploded, loud knockings, bangings, heavy footsteps, and the whole nine yards here.
Yeah, it was a traditional poltergeist, if you like, manifestation, only it was a bit more than that.
But the thing that they found particularly worrying was that they approached the local Catholic Church for an exorcism.
I won't mention the priest's name in case he's still there, but there's no point.
But he wasn't too keen to start with.
But he was eventually cajoled to come along and he wouldn't exorcise the place because they needed, as you probably know, to get specific permission to do that.
So what he did was he carried out a sort of house blessing to try and alleviate the case.
That seemed to work for a while, then it kicked off again.
So eventually, Keith and his girlfriend, they went back, they asked the priest again, he came out again, even more grudgingly, till eventually he just wouldn't come out anymore, he just left him to go on with it.
So again, Keith, to his credit, kept making notes of all this, taking careful notes, and he made a series of timelines, which are reprinted in the book because he was kind enough to give me the timelines.
I mean, it is almost like a set of diary entries, but running across three years or more.
That's right, and they're all included in the book, actually, what happened and when.
But it wasn't, I think what really hacked him off, eventually was, and I suppose, you know the show Ghost Adventures?
Yeah, Zach Bagans and company.
Well, Zach Beggins turned up.
And because the entity wouldn't play, shall we say, because they don't have to.
Zach's usual confrontational style didn't work.
The thing wouldn't do what it was supposed to do.
It wouldn't confront him as he was supposed to.
And we have to say that the chronology of the events there show times when it was absolutely full on and times when it would subside.
That's right.
There was no rhyme or reason to...
They just wouldn't do anything.
But the thing was, because it wouldn't play the game, that Zach Baggins, they didn't see it because I saw the show, actually, watched the edition of the show, was told it was on, and I watched it.
That they implied very, very strongly that it was made up, that Keith was making it up.
They didn't say it was, but they implied he was, which I think was extremely unfair and very unprofessional.
Well, of course, you know, they have their opinion, you have your opinion.
But what you detail in the book is how, you know, you and your friends, including Steve, I think Steve Mearer, you actually took equipment out there.
You went out to Seattle and you did measurements, temperature measurements, electromagnetic measurements, and there were some very odd recordings taken there.
There were indeed.
There was one.
Well, I wasn't there personally.
I have to make that very clear.
It was Steve and Don, and in the second case, Steve, Don and Keith.
And Nick Kyle.
I was never there personally, but I was given access to all the material.
I was given access to Keith's timeline, to Steve's timelines that he took when he was out there.
And one of the things that really, and it seems insignificant when you say this, but when you think about it, it's the implications of it.
It was one of the EVPs.
It was setting up a night vision camera on, I think, one of the landings in the house.
And the EVPs they got were cameras.
The second EVP said night vision.
Now, whatever these things were that were communicated with, they knew it was a camera and they knew it was a night vision camera.
Now that to me implies that they are well aware of the technology that we have and whether they can reproduce it on their side or not is beside the point.
But they were entirely up to speed with what was getting done and they knew what was getting done, what was more, and they knew why it was getting done.
And we're getting constant on EVPs of this kind, that these things were aware of what was going on in the house.
And when you refer to these things, what do you mean?
Well, it would appear there was more than one.
In retrospect, there was more than one of these things because there was conversations getting heard.
Between them getting battered, you know, getting battered back and forth between these things, whatever they were.
I mean, for this thing to actually say camera, then night vision, a different voice has said night vision.
There was two of these things actually watching what they were doing at the time.
So heavens knows what was in that house.
But the particularly sad thing about this is before Keith moved into this house, there was a woman there, lived there before that, before Keith, and she was getting problems as well.
And it drove her, well, pretty well, not insane exactly, but it didn't help her mental state at all.
And eventually the poor woman actually committed suicide just shortly after Keith left the house because they obviously couldn't stay there indefinitely because of the carry-on.
But the woman actually killed herself and it seems to have been directly attributable to what was going on to her in the house because she was getting similar things going on, but not to the same extent as Keith was.
Because Keith and his partner, I can't actually remember his partner's name off, but they were getting it really heavy.
And it was not a pleasant time for them at all.
I don't know how he managed to stick it for the time.
Did you or did they or did anybody do any research about the history of this place?
There seems to, well, I don't think there was, there was talk about, there was some talk about there being an Indian burial ground.
And I know this is getting very sort of poltergeist-ish, you know, the film poltergeist.
But I don't think there was anything particularly onerous about the actual ground that the house was built on, because it doesn't necessarily signify you're going to get problems anyway, whether your house is built on an old cemetery or not.
It depends how you look at this sort of thing.
But I don't think there was any particular problem about where the house was built.
But certainly it may have been the woman who was there before, because I don't know if she was the first occupant.
It was a rental property.
I don't know if she was the first occupant of it or not.
Because I never got around to asking Peter about it.
I was too busy doing what I was doing with his occupancy.
But I know that when he left, the trouble all seemed to recede.
And I did ask him if he actually, did he make contact with the next occupants of the house to see if they were experienced problems?
And he couldn't bring himself to do it.
He just didn't want to ask him just to sort of, you know, upset them just in case there was nothing going on.
How would you do that if you left a place that you had serious halting issues in or whatever they may be?
Would you want to get in touch with the people who are living there now and say, you know, I used to live in this place?
Has anything unusual happened since you started living there?
You just wouldn't want to do that, would you?
Well, Howard, if it was me, I probably would.
Well, you know, I'm sure there is a way to do it.
So, this was over a period, wasn't it?
And I think the last entries were in 2016, which presumably was when they left, was it?
It was indeed, yeah.
Actually, there is one, the Skype call is actually one of the chapters in it.
I expect I actually refer specifically to the Skype call of what went on during, which I've alluded to already, about getting these strange sort of odd enigmatic answers from Becky or via Becky.
And there was this, there's a chapter in the book called Don and the Demons because something very, very strange went on while they were in Seattle.
I think this was the second time they were there.
And because Don appears, from what I can make out, this guy has had a lot of experience with entities that communicate with him via his recorder because Becky is by no means the only one that does.
Now, when they were in Seattle, I think they went to this diner that they took a break here, whatever.
And Don picked up there was something wrong with a small stand of trees over to one side of the diner.
And he said there was bodies buried there once upon a time.
And indeed, there was, as it turned out, there was a small cemetery.
And when the diner was built, they exhumed the bodies, moved them somewhere else.
But there was this, you know, obviously where the graves had been, and this small stand of trees.
He said, there's something wrong there.
So anyway, they left out that, all went back to the house.
Then Don said, I've got to go back there.
Becky's telling me I should go back to this place because apparently this Becky protects him or he's under the impression of this entity protects him.
So they went back and Steve went with them.
Some person they knew when they were across there took them back to the place.
The woman who was driving the car stayed in the car and Steve and Don went to this, went to this small stand of trees.
Well, Don went across, got down on his knees on the recorder, and Steve reheats.
Now, Steve, as I said, is no chicken when it comes to this because he's been doing this for a long, long time.
And he's had a lot of experience that he could hear these voices coming through.
They were saying this state to Don.
They were saying, we want you.
We want your power.
We will levitate you.
You should be with us.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, yeah.
And Steve actually said, Don, he said, I want you to stop that right now.
He said, this is not what I do.
I'm going to leave you to it because I just ain't staying here.
Now, he's 15 feet away, and you can hear this as clear as crystal coming through the recorder.
So he just about turned back to the car.
And Don joined him a short time later.
I don't know, 20 minutes, I don't know, 15 minutes, 20 minutes.
I don't really know how long.
It wasn't very long.
And said, I've cleared them out.
Becky and I have cleared them out.
And apparently he did.
We encountered something absolutely negative and very powerful where these trees beside this dynamite.
It's all explained in the book.
In some detail.
Okay, now there are a lot of stories in the book, and we've come to the end of this now, so we've only sort of scratched the surface of it.
Oh, yeah.
What do you think?
How would you sum up the message then of these very well-written stories of paranormality?
I mean, there's one called The Morecambe Succubus that I particularly liked.
This was a guy called Martin Heggs.
Maybe we should tell this story just before we go because I love this one in a sort of chilling way.
The Morecambe Succubus, fantastic title for this thing.
This is a guy who moves into what we call a conversion here.
It's a house that's been converted into apartments or flats, as we call them here.
And this guy is Martin Heggs, hapless man who just happens to get himself wrapped up in all of this and sees all sorts of things, including the apparition of a girl with no feet.
That's right.
As you probably know, there's the succubus and the incubus.
And the incubus, if you like, made advances to women and the succubus to men.
It was thought originally, with modern thinking, that the succubus and the incubus were the inventions of the Catholic Church to explain, amongst other things, nocturnal omissions in their priests, who shouldn't, this shouldn't have been happening to, there must have been some spirit causing them to become impure.
But it is entirely possible that what happened to this guy, Martin Higgs, as you mentioned, that something absolutely, well, there was something, I'm saying this from a sexual nature, it may have been, but there was something attracted to him.
There was something fixated upon him.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's a better way of putting it in point of fact, fixated on him.
And it was really giving him quite a hard time.
It was attaching itself to him.
It would approach him at night.
He would see this thing.
I don't think it, as I recall from the, I don't think it actually did him any harm.
It certainly frightened him plenty.
And we have to say, look, I was born and bred in Liverpool, and I used to get taken on day trips to Morecambe, which is a seaside town just north of Blackpool.
And it's a very quiet place.
You know, there used to be a comedian, I've forgotten his name now, who used to tell the joke that when people die in Morecambe, they don't bury them, they stand them up in the bus shelters, which was a bit of a damning indictment.
I mean, Morecambe's a very nice place with lovely views across to the Lake District and everything.
But it's a very quiet town.
So to think that there was this hotbed of paranormal activity there, you know, is a bit of a stretch.
Yeah.
Actually, there's one, I know we're a bit pushed for time now, but there's one of the other chapters in the book that might be of interest to your listeners, and it was set in Sligo in Ireland.
You ever heard of a guy called Barry Fitzgerald?
I've had him on the programme, so I know that you teamed up with Barry Fitzgerald, Irish Paranormal Investigator, to do some work in Sligo, which is west of Ireland, isn't it?
That's right.
Now, Barry and I, we Skype regularly, we're in constant contact.
In fact, Barry is coming across to what is called Cairn Papal Hill, which is a Neolithic burial site about 25 miles away from where I live.
And he's coming across with his wife.
They're going to be staying with us for a while.
And we're going to visit Rosslyn Chapel, do some stuff there if we're allowed to.
And I also go up to Cairn Papel Hill, but Barry, he invited Don and Steve across to have a look at this place called Seafield House in Sligo.
And some of the stuff, I mean, I don't really have time because it's actually too complex to discuss.
Just give me a little overview.
Well, Don, there was other stuff happened outside this, but when they went to the house, and if you ever, if your listeners have an interest, type in Google Seafield House and just go to images.
It's an absolute ruin of a house.
There's trees growing up through the house.
I mean, they drop inside the house.
There's no roof on it.
But Don made the contact that something had been kept in this house at one time because the owners changed the name of the house to try and get rid of the bad luck that became associated with it.
Because at one time when the house was built, it was a very wealthy Hamlet family had it.
And one of the guys had an interest in Egyptology.
And he started bringing artefacts into the house, which is a thing you should never, I think you should never, ever do, ever, ever do.
And as a result of this, stuff started to go wrong in the house, badly wrong.
And it seems to have been due to these artefacts that he brought into.
Well, Don, who knew nothing about the place, he didn't even know he was going there, he gets into the ruins of Seafield House and he starts talking about these Egyptian artefacts.
And he's talking about all this kind of thing.
So the guy is very, very sensitive.
And I think actually can operate equally well without Becky, but that's just a personal opinion.
But the guy is a powerful medium and he picked up a lot of stuff going on in the Seafield House.
But like I say, it's an extremely complex it's quite a complex chapter in the show, which is I don't want to dwell on it.
Well, maybe I need to get you and Barry on the show and we can do all of that because Barry was a great guest when I had him on the radio show.
He was very good.
But Barry, absolutely great guy.
great storyteller.
Exactly.
Unfortunately, we share many opinions regarding the mechanism behind a lot of paranormal.
And we have to say that he's coming across, and you hope to be able to check out Roslyn Chapel, among other things that happen there.
Well, some people say there's a sort of portal to another dimension or time there, don't they?
Well, that was me, in point of fact.
One of my books is called Roslyn Between Two Worlds.
And in it, we found that there is a portal.
It's in the Lady Chapel and right in front of what is called the St. Matthew Altar.
And it can be activated by a specific tone.
The tones are, if you've ever been in Roslyn Chapel, in the Lady Chapel and you look up, you'll see there's a whole, there's 360 odd, 370 odd cubes come up from like, it's like angels playing musical instruments and these stone cubes, each with different faces, each with a different design carved on each face.
And we decided that what was actually happening there was that the guy that built it, Sir William Sinkler, he actually gave the secret of the chapel.
And the secret of the chapel is in these stone carvings.
There appear to be what are called Schladny patterns.
It's a bit like cymatics, the modern study of cymatics, that Shladny patterns were actually made by sprinkling fine sand on a thin metal plate, clamping the plate to a hard surface, and hitting and striking with a violin bow.
And depending on the musical note, the sand will take up a specific pattern.
We think that these stone images on the cubes are actually verses of these Schladni patterns.
And we think it's a specific chord.
It's called an augmented fourth.
And it is an F sharp, which is 370 Hertz, the note C, which is 523 Hertz, and the note A, which is 880 Hertz.
We recreated this, I downloaded a frequency generator.
We created a whole series of these notes, of these chords, augmented force.
And whenever we played that one on the people that run Russland Chapel would like you to do this sort of thing.
They just will not let you do it now because there's too much money involved in it.
Well, just maybe too many people wanting to go there and do what you're doing.
But what happened when you did it?
Well, what happened when we did it was this actually, it's a two-part story.
The first was in 1998 and the second was in 2005.
The first time we did it, we just stumbled on it by accident when a woman came in, an American woman, and she started toning.
And she hit a specific frequency and totally the chapel lit up.
Everyone stopped and they all looked at what the hell's going on because the place was resonating with this particular tone she hit.
And the medium would take it along that time and said, that's the secret.
So this set me investigating, it set me investigating these sets of notes that appeared to be notes in carved in stone in the ceiling of the chair of the Lady Chapel.
And we came with this particular set of, this particular frequency, this F sharp, C and D. And when we recreated that as a series of frequencies, again, the altar, the actual St. Matthew altar, the medium said something's happening, something's happening at the altar.
And there was a light seemed to illuminate the engrailed cross right in the middle of the chapel, in the middle of the altar.
There's an engrailed cross, the sinkler coat of arms, if you look, the engrailed cross.
And there was almost the centre of this cross was illuminated.
It was shining bright as if there was a light on it.
I was lifted off my feet, literally lifted off my feet.
I'm not winding you up here.
I was lifted straight off my feet and fell forward.
My wife had this on camera.
Now, the BBC got to hear about it.
I sent the tape down to the BP, down to the BBC, and that's my northern utility started to run, which they shouldn't have done, but they've just started to run.
But this sort of thing happens from time to time.
Can you still hear me?
I can, yeah, yeah.
No, your computer's fine.
I'm hearing you well.
That's fine.
It's just my northern utilities have just jumped up and started to run.
Okay, so your anti-virus, well, mine has that too.
Your antivirus software is beginning to run, but it's not causing a problem.
So ultimately, what happened there, Russell and Chad?
What happened was this was the BBC asked for a copy of this, right?
So we sent them a copy of the copy of the tape down, and they promptly lost it.
They lost the tape.
So I can't prove any of this ever happened.
But it was so strange.
I was standing with my back against the altar when this was all going on.
And it was almost as if something was pushing me up from the floor.
It was under my heels.
And the harder I leaned back against the altar, because it's not high up, but it may be the crusher's shoulder blades.
The harder I leaned back and started to push down on the floor, the harder I was getting pushed up from the portal.
Eventually, I came off the floor and stumbled forward.
And I was going, wow, what happened there?
Well, the medium said, well, she said, that is a natural doorway standing and right there.
And that is the portal.
And the portal can be activated by sound, I believe, and also by light, red light.
But of course, when you say the word portal, it implies it's going somewhere.
It's going and coming.
From where to where?
We don't know.
Well, so that's why Barry's coming across then.
Yes, it is.
It's one of the reasons it's coming across.
Good luck with that.
Listen, we're out of time, unfortunately.
We're going to have to continue this conversation, and maybe when Barry's here, we can talk again.
I asked you just to sum up in a minute or so, if you could, what you want people to take away from the book.
What is the message of the book?
And all of these stories that are very, very well written of real-life paranormal happenings.
What's the message?
Well, I'm not trying to convert the converted here, preach the converted, but what I would like people, even if there's the slightest bit of skepticism, have a look At the book, have a look at the evidence that I've managed to assess in the book and make up your mind from that.
There is a very real phenomenon at work here and it is quantifiable and it is measurable.
But to me, the supernatural is only the natural that we haven't found an answer for yet, because I'm pretty sure we will.
And when we do, I think it'll be a revelation to us all.
But the book is an attempt to rationalize the irrational, if you want, and bring the evidence to anyone that's willing to keep an open mind and read it.
Well, the book is called Project Phenomena.
And has it got its own website?
It doesn't have its own website, but it's available.
The full title of the book is Project Phenomena, Evaluating the Paranormal.
It is available for White Crow books.
It's available on Amazon or any good bookseller.
And I can assure you that anyone that cares to read it will get their eyes open because it's an honest book.
And if I try to attack or if I try to treat, shall we say, a mysterious subject in a very open and honest fashion, an accessible fashion.
Whenever I get a book in this sort of genre through, I always put it through a bit of a test.
I see how big the print is and I see how full the pages are.
And if the pages are not very full, if the print is very big, there's not an awful lot to say.
I have to say that your pages are very tightly packed.
God bless you.
So, Brian, thank you very much.
We'll talk again.
Thank you, Brian.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Thank you very much.
Many thanks.
And like we said, the book is called Project Phenomena.
The man we've been hearing from, and we'll hear from him again, is Brian Allen, who's got a million stories, and we only just touched the surface of that.
But I definitely recommend the book.
It's really well written.
Project Phenomena, published by White Crow Books.
And thank you to John at White Crow for making that happen.
We have more great guests and more great stories in the pipeline here on The Unexplained.
So until next we meet, my name is Howard Hughes.
I am in London.
This has been The Unexplained.
And please, whatever you do, stay safe, stay calm, and above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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