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Nov. 3, 2017 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:30:33
Edition 318 - Yorkshire Coast Weirdness & JFK

Paul Sinclair on weird happenings off Yorkshire's coast... Plus Dave O'Brien and a "JFKFiles" update...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast.
My name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Thank you very much for all of your communications.
No shout-outs on this edition for a very good reason.
We've got a lot of material, a bumper show this time.
We're going to be catching up with two guests who made a pretty big impact on my radio show, and I think you deserve to hear them here.
I'll tell you more about them in just a moment.
Also, no shout-outs on the next edition, because I'm hoping to have one of our biggest guests returning to this show.
More details of that coming soon.
But I promise you, I am seeing and reading all of your emails and guest suggestions, and where necessary, I'm sending an email back, and I will do that as often as I can.
But I see every single email, suggestion, and thought about the show.
Thank you very much for keeping them coming.
When you get in touch, please go to the website theunexplained.tv.
There's a link to send email from there.
You can make guest suggestions, comments about the show, whatever you want.
Please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show.
Very important that you do that.
If you've made a donation through the website, theunexplained.tv, thank you for that.
And thank you to Adam at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for helping us break records with this show.
Thank you, Adam, very much for all of the effort that has gone into all of this over all these years.
On this edition of the show, then, two great guests.
Number one, Paul Sinclair, the author of a book about strange happenings off the coast of Yorkshire, the east coast of the UK, this is essentially, up northeast of London town, where some weirdness has happened, not only lights in the sky, but also UFOs, people going missing in tragic circumstances, all in recent years.
It is a remarkable book.
Paul Sinclair is a fantastic guest.
He has a second edition of the book coming out very soon, hot on the heels of this one.
The book is called Truth Proof.
I massively recommend it.
You know, I don't endorse people here, but I do recommend this book.
It's a great piece of research and a great read, and he is a fantastic guest.
So Paul Sinclair, number one, from my UK Talk Radio show.
Also, the second guest is Dave O'Brien.
In the light of the 2,800 JFK documents that have just been released by Donald J. Trump, he authorized their release.
300 more documents remain secret.
What more do we know?
Well, Dave O'Brien has written a great book called Through the Oswald Window.
He's done a lot of research.
He's based in Canada.
And I get his thoughts about these new documents, plus some thoughts about his book, another superb guest on The Unexplained.
So two people you really need to hear.
So strap yourself in.
And I do hope wherever in the world you are, you really enjoy this edition of The Unexplained.
Let's start with Paul Sinclair.
And we'll talk about his book and research, Truth Proof.
A whole series of anomalies, strange happenings, aliens, strange craft, lights in the sky, and very disturbingly disappearing people, all in the same area, all with certain factors in common, geographically at least.
The area we're talking about is the eastern north Yorkshire coast.
And the person who's done so much research for this 240-page book, Truth Proof, is Paul Sinclair.
He's online to us now at the Alex Ben.
You are in Yorkshire, aren't you, Paul?
I am, yes, Howard.
And wonderful to talk to you tonight.
Thank you.
You too.
This is a great book.
You know, I was reading through it today and marking it up for this conversation.
It's beautifully written and fabulously researched.
And, you know, you haven't taken other people's accounts of things.
With a lot of these cases, you've actually gone and spoken.
If you can't get the people themselves, you've spoken to people who knew them or know them.
It's a great bit of research.
How long did it take to put together?
The book itself, I'd had lots of ideas and different stories that come to me over the years.
But when I decided to actually write the book, I would have thought about 12 months.
And the second ones come together quite a lot quicker, if I'm being truthful, Howard.
And what is it about this area?
I mean, maybe every area is a bit like this, and you've centered on this area, but what is it that makes this area of East and North Yorkshire and the coast there so strange?
Yeah, so unique.
It's probably, you touched on part of it when you just spoke then.
There's probably areas all over the country, all over the world that are similar to this.
But obviously these pockets, these pockets of ice strangeness, and you've got, if you read Truth Booth, you would understand that they are here, they do exist in eastern North Yorkshire.
I think it's the land, it's the location that's the key.
The huge amount of burial mounds that are situated around the area, they weren't placed there because of because of because the people thought that they would like to place a burial mound there for want of a better word.
They realise the significance of this highly strange land and the things that manifest and are seen in the area.
Basically, I think location is key.
Location is key.
I mean, it is all about location, location, location.
And that is why the military chose that area, for example, air bases, because it has a great takeoff to...
You turn right, you're down to Germany and Holland.
You go straight across and you're into Vladivostok.
So it is strategically, it's a great area.
That's correct.
I mean, you just touched on RAF bases and you've got RAF Staxton Wold, which is the oldest operational RAF base in the world, situated just outside of Skarbury and about 11 miles as the crow flies from Bridlington.
And once again, an area of ice strangeness.
I'm not saying that the RAF placed that base there because of that, but the amount of stories and the amount of information that comes out in close proximity to that base is amazing.
And no less amazing is the disused RAF base at Bempton.
There are so many stories that we're going to go through that all come back to Bempton.
Even though Bempton is not used anymore, the buildings are still there.
And they seem to be the focus of some...
I would agree, and let's not forget that folklore, that's oral accounts.
Many of these people wouldn't have been able to write who's to say that what they witnessed and experienced was not a genuine unknown phenomenon.
You know, we call it folklore and sort of brush it to one side as though it's not to be taken as serious.
But these are old tales, and if they were being retold today, or let's assume I'm creating folklore of today, I'm writing it.
It's not the spoken word.
I'm putting it down on print.
But the fact of the matter is that some of the people, and like I say, we've got loads of stories to get into and we've got time to do it.
You know, you have talked to sensible, grown-up people who claim to have had experiences that are beyond sensible.
They are bizarre.
I tell you, I've just had a text in from Chris, who's the editor of Outer Limits magazine.
You might even know him.
Chris Evers.
I know Chris Evers, yeah, wonderful magazine.
Puts wonderful UFO conferences on now in Hall.
Well, you might know about this.
He says, and before we get into your stories, he says, do you believe that there is an anomaly or some kind of interdimensional portal in the North Sea off Bridlington that has caused and continues to cause weird experiences?
I suppose it's a possibility.
In truth proof, I don't pin anything down to any one thing because ultimately I simply don't know.
But I know old maps and old naval maps do say on them a magnetic anomaly is supposed to exist in this area.
And I've spoken to numerous trawlermen in Bridlington Harbour and other locations around the east coast who tell me that when they get 16 to 20 miles off Flamborough Head on very rare occasions, and we're talking so rare it could happen once in 10 years, their compasses just go wild.
All right, we'll get into that because it's a kind of Bermuda triangle effect.
Let's unpick the book and we'll go through it from page one and pick out stories all the way through.
I spent a really happy couple of hours today doing this.
I didn't know what to expect.
I thought, oh, the cover on this looks good.
I've no idea what the book is going to be like and I was really impressed.
Okay, page one, strange lights seen miles out to sea that have been described by some people and newspapers as Chinese lanterns, but because of the way they appear, how can they be seen near and off Flambre Head?
You have recorded examples of those in the book.
I've recorded examples of those and I've got actual video footage of them.
It was the trawlermen and the rock anglers off Bempton who fish those cliffs from the 1st of March every year for a few months.
Sorry, yeah, the 1st of March for a few months.
And they're there on a night fishing off the cliffs.
And they've been reporting these unusual red and orange spheres that just appear.
One light will appear in the sky over the sea and instantly punch into a row of five, switch off and appear further down the coast.
Now, if you get speaking, Howard, to lifeboat crew and you're lucky enough to look at some of their logs, which I've been able to over the years and I've sort of opened their eyes a little bit.
I don't mean I've learnt them, but we get loads of reports in the newspapers, the local papers, of red flares seen off East Yorkshire, red flares seen off Hornsey from Hull.
And they go out and sometimes they'll have nine-hour searches for these boats or aircraft in distress, you know, downed aircraft or boats.
They would actually be deployed to something that is unexplained.
Well, everybody wants to explain it in conventional terms.
That's the human thing to do.
So the follow-up in the week, the paper the following week would read something like, I mean, I haven't got a paper in front of me, it was a false alarm, the nine-hour search for the flares.
I've named them the flares that never were.
These are the light forms.
These things, I don't know whether they're alive, I don't know what they are.
And some of your listeners may roll their eyes listening to this, but let me assure you, the lifeboatmen are taking me serious now, some of them, because when they look back in their logs, the amount of call-outs they've had for flares over the sea, off Scarborough, off Bridlington, off Hornsey, four-hour searches, five-hour searches, and then the following week the newspaper write-up will say that they were perhaps meteors or afterburners.
And how can they be Chinese lanterns, which some people have said they were?
They can't be out at sea, can they?
Not really.
And not only that, Howard, the explanations given, they're given a cluster of explanations all for the sighting the week previous, because quite honestly, they do not know.
And I've not got an answer to this.
I'm not saying they're UFOs, but I'm saying that these lights, which I've termed ILFs, intelligent light forms, are real and do exist.
I've spent years on the East Yorkshire wolds spending time with farmers in remote areas who've seen these spheres of light that just appear at will and vanish.
You know, and the fishermen will say a row of five appeared and then it switched off and then it appeared in Hornsey.
We could see it six miles down the coast.
That's not flares.
That's not afterburners and that's not meteorites.
And we've seen them, to be honest with you, once this year.
Late last year we managed to get a bit of film footage of them because they're just quite unpredictable.
If this phenomenon was predictable, Howard, then everybody would be seeing it.
But it is a genuine unknown.
And that's as much as I can say for the light forms.
Have you tried phoning the Ministry of Defence about this?
Not about the light forms.
No, I did about when I was looking into some aircraft crashes off the North Sea and you touched on it earlier.
You said we're looking into a Bermuda triangle type thing.
And when I spoke to the historical records office about ZA610, which was a tornado that crashed in December 1985, when I told them where it was, it could have been tongue-in-cheek, but the guy on the phone said, we call that area the Bermuda Triangle of the UK, which is an interesting story.
I thought, that's too good not to say.
You know, maybe he was too good.
That was asking to be said, really.
Do you mind if I read just a little bit from the book?
Are you all right with that?
Read whatever you like, Howard.
You're not going to come breathing down my neck for coffee, right?
Okay.
Page six, we're talking about lights.
This is the story about an angler.
You spoke to somebody who told you the story of an angler.
A lot of these stories involve people who fish, whether they go out in trawlers or they fish from the coast themselves.
This person used to park his car at the reserve, which is the Bempton Reserve, there's that name, Bempton, and then go onto the cliff tops for fishing.
He said that on one particular evening, just before they closed the center, the angler came in and he was shaken up and seemed very frightened.
He told them how he'd set up his fishing gear and had been sitting on the cliff top looking out to sea.
The sky was full of stars.
And he suddenly noticed a very bright star that he couldn't recall having ever seen before.
It was just there.
He said that he looked hard at the star, but no sooner had he focused on it, the star was right on top of him, right above him.
He couldn't explain it any other way.
He said, for a few seconds, the ground all around him lit up in the most brilliant light.
It was so intense that everything around him was white.
Even the grass shimmered in a silver-white brilliance.
Then it vanished as quickly as it arrived.
And this guy was really frightened.
And I'm guessing there is no way that that could have been a helicopter.
Absolutely no way.
I mean, I've spoke to him several times and quite recently.
I was lucky enough, I'll not dwell on why I was at Bempton.
I was fitting a floor safe in the nature reserve, and I was told the story, and then I located the fisherman.
What's interesting, obviously, it couldn't have been a star that appeared above this man's head, but he perceived it as a star up in the heavens.
Now, I don't know if there's something going off, there was some intermined connection with this object that he viewed and this thing that appeared instantly.
I don't think he was hallucinating.
He came back to the centre, absolutely shook up, and he tells me that he won't fish alone up at Bempton again.
Quite what were going off, I don't know.
I mean, a lot of the fishermen have experienced not something as dramatic as that, but the light forms.
And if you speak to 10 fishermen, well, if you speak to five fishermen, you'll get five different answers to what they are.
Some will say they're afterburners, and when you'll say to them, Did you hear aircraft at the time?
They'll say, no, no, we never heard anything.
And the next guy will say, there were meteorites.
And so, and what did they do?
Oh, they just hung in the sky in a row of five.
These people are, you know, they're not presumably science fiction fans, so they've got no vested interest in making this stuff up, I would have thought.
Howard, they've got absolutely no interest in UFOs or unidentified flying objects.
All they want to do is catch fish off the cliff top.
This book is stuffed with stories, literally page to page.
So we skip from page six and the fisherman to the light form encounter in Whitby, 1984.
They're all recent stories.
They're all within 30, 40 years.
There is one little excursion into 1966 for a good reason.
We'll talk about that in a bit.
Howard?
Sorry?
What page are we on?
We're on page eight.
And this is a witness who first contacted me via some website about a light form sighting.
And the quote is here, my car broke down on top of a deserted moor road.
My girlfriend and I had no choice but to leave the car and walk home.
We saw a red light.
Didn't take a lot of notice at first, assuming it was a tail light of a motorbike.
Our primary concern was to get home.
We were on foot.
I started to walk slowly towards it.
Yet it stayed where it was.
My reasoning was that we were vulnerable up there, and if we wanted to, it could have hurt us, but it didn't.
So we had nothing to lose and everything to gain from investigating it.
My girlfriend was frightened at the thought of me going over to the red light and leaving her and she started crying, please don't leave me.
I said she should come with me then, but she became frightened at the thought of that also.
What was it?
You've got a great sketch here, light form encounter in Whitby, a red hovering light in front of two young people.
What was it?
Well, it is what I've been talking about, and these are the intelligent light forms, if we're to believe this guy's account.
And he would have qualified kind of guy, a hypnoanalysis, I believe, by profession.
And he actually says somewhere, you'll have to forgive me because I can't see it on the page, but he actually says that he believed that this thing was suggesting or saying to him inside his head, don't worry, you won't be harmed, or words to that effect.
And yeah, there was some kind of an awareness to this object that sort of paced them at the way they were walking across the moor after they'd broken down.
And obviously, if the girlfriend hadn't have been frightened, I think he, I don't mean he'd have touched it or had some kind of wonderful interaction, but he might have been lucky enough to study it more and glean more information from it.
I mean, you say visual sightings, one of the section headings is visual sightings equals mental connection.
In other words, the feeling that you're connected with whatever this is.
Well, the guy on the cliff tops that you spoke about earlier, and he visualized that star or what he perceived to be a star that he couldn't place seeing before.
And once he'd made that connection, he claims that this light was above him instantly, so some kind of intermined connection.
And it's almost as though when different people view a UFO sighting, multiple witnesses, and they won't all describe it in the same way.
And everybody seems to have a slightly different take on it.
They will all agree that they've seen something, but they have a different experience in many instances.
I mean, and this is a sceptic's dream scenario because they can't all agree on it.
But I'd sort of turn that on its head and say that there's something happening on a personal level with each and every witness.
I mean, they'll all agree that they've seen something unusual, but usually they perceive it or experience it in a different way.
And some will fear and some will feel absolute excitement.
Well, you'd be surprised at the number of people who are chiming in with you here.
Stuart is one of them.
Stuart says, have seen some weird things up on the moor near Whitby, but assumed it was all military.
Yeah, well, you know, and that's, and who's to say a lot of this can't be military.
But what I'm saying is, Howard, that a lot of it isn't.
The lights over the sea, there's no explanation when the people come out with afterburners for a row, a light that instantly punches into a row of five and then Travels down the coast like a train or switches off and appears in a different part.
I mean, I've seen these myself.
I took a guy out last year up to the RSPB Reserve, geophysicist Andrew Eales, and he's written a paper for new book because he witnessed them.
And he was far cleverer than me.
And he worked out the distance from the cliffs to the horizon from our altitude of 22 miles.
And he sort of really did a job on it.
And he's no explanation for these.
And these are trained men.
I investigate these things, but this guy put his brain to it.
And it's good to see somebody from a scientific background taking it seriously.
Now, we've got two minutes before news here, so I just want to deal with this.
My friend Mark from the band The Pocket Gods, who are doing very well with their indie music, which is rapidly in danger of going completely mainstream, and I'm very proud of them because I'm on a couple of their albums.
I'm just adding that for flavor, really.
Mark says, do you believe that UFOs are attracted because of military bases?
I mean, you've talked about Benton.
Benton will come into this again after the news in other stories about other kinds of strangeness.
But Mark is putting that point, the attraction of strange lights, UFOs, whatever it might be, energies, and military things.
Yeah, it could very well be when you look at Rendlesham Forest and the alleged UFO sighting in 1980, and there's people still investigating that and still pouring enormous amounts of effort and investigation skills.
People like Derek Savori and John Hansen and they're absolutely, and Brenda Butler, they're still working very hard.
And that's 1980.
And yeah, so the military bases must form a part of it.
I don't know whether it's because of the potential for weapons or the radar antenna, the energy outputs.
I don't know what the reason is, or the intelligence that's withheld in these bases.
I really don't know, but it does appear that way, yeah.
The book is called Truth Proof.
I haven't said book this time.
I'm going back to my Liverpool roots now.
Book, you're going to go get a book down there, you know.
Paul, the Grim Sheeper, great Twitter handle, has just tweeted in and says, Howard, can you ask Paul about a building on the North Yorkshire Moors, the North Yorks Moors?
It's a big concrete square with no visible ways in or windows.
Are you aware of this?
That sounds a bit Filingdales to me.
I honestly thought that's what he was referring to.
If not, then I'm not aware of it.
It would have to be Filingdales near Gulfland, I would have thought.
Well, Sarah, madam, if you can give me some more details of that, we'll try and check that one out.
And thank you for it.
You can always tweet at Talk Radio throughout the show.
I mean, I love the running commentary that goes on when we're on air here.
It's just one of the great things about this show.
So many stories in this book and so little time to get through them, I think you will find.
Where are we going to go next?
Let me see.
Page 27.
A strange case reported by a fisherman of light coming up from the sea.
Not lights hanging over the land or lights hanging over the sea, but strange, what do they call it, luminescence, marine luminescence coming up from under the sea.
On page 27, even a Coast Guard officer based at Bridlington thought that these lights were really unusual.
What's that all about?
It's just another anomaly that's been reported for many years, and this one is no less interesting than the others.
I mean, if I could just briefly jump from this, this year, with a witness called Bob Brown, who happens to be a radio host, we filmed, we got pictures of lights under the sea of Fempton, a triangle of lights under the sea, however.
A triangle of lights.
I'm not going to say that anything, a group of three is going to form a triangle, isn't it?
But there were a group of three lights.
Now, I'm not trying in any way to suggest that they were some huge object under the sea.
But nevertheless, we've got these lights, these luminous white lights, filmed in daylight over the sea.
Well, early evening.
And what's interesting, I know I've jumped from your story here, Howard, but American military vehicles were in our area at the time of this sighting.
Dodge Ram pickups, which I have photographs of as well to back up my words, with huge green camouflage boxes on the back.
I'd be very interested if anybody in these the Americans had their hardware near this area.
Well, they were American license plates and they were Dodge Ram pickups.
I know because I passed one at close quarters and got a few images and they'd got an item on the top that looked like a satellite dish.
They were camouflaged green.
I don't know whether the Dodge Rams were civilian because they were dark blue, but the kit on the back of them was military.
They had a huge trailer on the back that were all camouflaged up.
And I was told by friends of mine who were in the military, when I showed them the images of what was on top, it was nothing to do with the satellite.
They said it was microwave technology.
Now they were parked at Bempton, they were at Garton on the Wold, they were at Sledmere and they were at Gransmore.
Just remind, tell me again when this was?
I would have thought two months ago.
Okay, well look, you know, we know that all sorts of things have to be done for our safety and our defense, but that sounds rather strange.
I can't recall seeing American reg plate military vehicles anywhere in my lifetime in this country.
If anybody wanted to look on my Facebook page, I did put pictures up of them.
You know, and quite why they were there, I don't know.
I mean, I'd spoke to some farmers in area and locals who passed as they were walking the dogs, because one of them were packed on a lane called Blake Lane, just off Bempton, just off Cliff Lane at Bempton.
And he asked what they were doing, and they said that there'd been some unusual aircraft seen.
And this is not to say that that's why they were there.
I mean, it could have been perfectly legitimate.
Not everything's got to be UFO-related or unexplained, but it is highly unusual.
There was nothing reported in papers about these aircraft, about these Dodge Rams with these strange units on the back.
I mean, it were a square box that were camouflaged up.
You probably got two people working inside it.
Steel flaps around the top.
I would be very keen to know about that because that Sounds like something from the Cold War.
We know that the east of England was used for something called over-the-horizon radar.
We were very big into that at one point, but I wonder what this could be.
Just an update on that strange concrete item on the moors that had no visible way in.
The Grim Sheeper says, not Filing Dales, definitely not Filing Dales.
I'm familiar with that because I've driven past it lots of times.
This was on the Moors while I was driving, so that's one to check out.
I've also got a phone number, which I'm obviously not going to give out on air for John Alexander, who was of interest to you.
So we can put the two of you into contact.
I will email you that when we've done this.
But we can't give out numbers on the air, but we will do that.
Okay, let's get to another case.
There are so many in here and so little time.
This is great.
Page 29, what you call the With and Sea Close Encounter.
This happened in all these cases, most of them, are very recent.
19, well, you know, to me, it's recent, 1994.
Hovering spheres, the air was buzzing with static, loud noises, something that caused alarms to go off.
And the people who spotted this were rational people.
I'm just going to get to page 29 here so I can actually read a little bit of this.
March, there it is, the with and see close encounter.
Okay, now you were able to find out about this in March 2006, so 12 years, no, 22 years after it happened, wasn't it?
No, how many years is this?
No, it's 12 years.
It's been a long, long week with too little sleep.
You say March 2006, I was contacted by a freelance reporter from Bridlington.
She asked if I would interview an older lady and her daughter about a terrifying encounter they both experienced when they lived on a farm in Sprokely, near Withensea, just east of Hull.
This is a great story.
I don't know whether you can flesh this out without me reading from your book.
Yeah, by all means.
They lived in Knaresborough when we went to speak to them.
And I went with a guy called Steve Ashbridge.
And basically what they encountered, the daughter, Sandra, was washing the pots late evening in their kitchen.
It was a chicken farm that they were living on in 1994.
And she observed some lights in the distance from a kitchen window.
Unpolluted, nothing at the back of them, just open skies.
And she was interested, so she went to a back door and she's observing these lights.
And she shouted her mum, Muriel.
And Muriel, when we met her, would have been in her late 70s.
So I don't know if she's around yet, but still.
So anyway, Sandra decided that she was going to run upstairs and get a camera.
And she went and got this, you know, picture the cameras with the square flash that turned when you take the pictures.
Oh, yeah.
I used to have one of those, a what a code instamatic.
Remember that?
She snapped a picture of these lights, stood in the doorway, and instantly, I'm not going to say how many seconds or a second, these lights were at the bottom of their garden, or the grassy area at the bottom of their, and they were just hung in a row.
Spheres of light, and she said they were turning.
It was so difficult for them to explain what they were actually looking at.
And she said they were turning and they looked like a rack of snooker balls at one time.
And they were turning and they didn't have eyes, but they sort of turned half black and half red.
And to the right, if my memory serves me correctly, there was a white sphere that she thought had some kind of shutter or door on it.
They didn't know if it landed or if it was hovering in the field, but when they shot forward, after a few seconds, they went inside, locked the door, and they were frightened to death.
Now, well, I can't say what part of the room we're in, but they were just in the back of the room, frightened.
And after a short time with the lights off, Sandra, the daughter, said that she could hear or perceive movement outside, and she went to the window and just snapped a few pictures.
And she'd got through the sort of vagueness of the net curtains this image of what she says is an alien.
Now, me and Steve believed her story, but afterwards, it had such a profound effect on these two ladies that everything that happened after that, they believed was UFO-related.
And with no disrespect to them, I think even a satellite passing through the sky would have caused them to be looking up and interested.
But we do think that the initial event was genuine.
It was a genuine UFO-related event that they had had.
And these pictures are quite remarkable.
And they allowed me to take a few snaps from their own pictures.
And I've placed them in the book, Truth Proof.
I don't know if you've seen them, Award.
But yeah, quite amazing.
And again, these are not people who were sci-fi fans or Ridley Scott fans or anything particularly.
They're just an ordinary couple of people.
No interest.
Muriel and Sandra.
And what was interesting, because of the difference in upbringings and cultural backgrounds, Sandra believed that they were aliens and Muriel believed they were angels.
Or some kind of religious touch to it.
And I think that was just the difference in upbringings and the different sort of worlds that they were brought up in.
So how do they look back on it now?
Well, I don't think we've spoke to them since, to be honest with you.
I know that they were totally...
Muriel used to ring the elderly lady quite a lot, and all she wanted to do was talk about her sighting, because they were ridiculed and they were just happy that somebody weren't laughing at them, and for want of a better word, were taking them seriously, because they weren't after fame and fortune.
And this was 1994, but we've got to say that the world has changed in a quantum way since then.
I used to work on a news desk in London, doing news on the Chris Tarrant show.
It was a music show in London on Capital back in those days.
And anything like this was regarded as completely wacko back then, and the people who were behind stories like that were also regarded as wacko.
I think things have changed a little bit now, and I think that's probably for the better.
Even if these things have a perfectly rational explanation, we should at least be able to talk about them without laughing at the people who experienced these things.
You tell a really chilling story, not far from that story in the book, page 35.
And this is not something from the 1940s, But there's more than that.
It's rather like those commercials you see on TV at night, you know, the shopping channels.
They say, but there's more.
There's definitely more to this story because he had apparently missing time.
This thing started in daylight and ended in darkness, but with very little time elapsing.
What was this about?
This is a fabulous story, and you're correct.
He was flying a vintage aircraft, and I spoke to him literally two days ago because he's agreed to let me interview him on tape, you know, record him because I want to use it as part of a talk I'm doing at the Outer Limits Conference in Hull next year.
And he was in a vintage aircraft and it wasn't equipped or licensed for night flying.
So he'd just gone for a jolly up the coast and ended up near Filingdale's and was on his way back.
Now this guy thought that he'd got enough time to land.
He was at a small airstrip in Burton Fleming called Willie Howe Farm.
Anybody familiar with Willie Howe?
It's probably one of the most famous burial mounds in the UK, if not the most famous, attributed to unexplained happenings.
But we'll not stay with Willie Howe.
So he's flying home.
I can't remember the exact point that he looks at the sun setting and thinks, yeah, I've left myself enough time.
And he sort of looks to his right and he sees another sun.
And he's thinking, I'm sort of confused.
He looked and then he could see the sun setting.
Then he saw another sun.
And he's trying to work out what he's actually looking at.
He said, and then his best analogy was, although he gave me another one the other day, but in the book he said, it was as though someone had applied the brakes as hard as you could in a car without skidding, and the plane stopped in the air.
When I spoke the other day, he said it was like flying into a cobweb.
He said, I said, I'm just trying to comprehend how to explain what happened.
He said, and I looked, he said, and the plane's not, it's losing altitude, it's not going any higher, the revs are staying the same.
He said, and I just can't understand it.
He says, and then suddenly, I must have blacked out.
He said, because when I came to, it was night.
He said, and I thought, what do I do?
Do I try and continue and fly towards Humberside Airport?
He said, luckily, he knew the area well enough and he could get his bearings by looking at Flamborough Lighthouse and sort of knew roughly where he was.
And when he arrived at his home airstrip at Willie Howe Farm, there was a farmer with lights on actually working in the fields.
And he put it down in a field.
He had to miss some, he says, whatever it is, some power lines.
I'm sorry because I haven't got the information in front of me.
That was his only worry, that he would miss these power lines as he put the aircraft down.
And he managed to put the aircraft down.
He can't explain it.
I think he said he lost one and a half hours of time.
I mean, again, there's a story where you can be asking yourself quite legitimately, how does he see that now?
Because that was a terrifying thing.
If he thinks he blacked out in the sky and he has missing time, that is something that's going to stay with you forever.
Without a doubt.
And not only that, this is another curious one.
When he checked his fuel, when he landed the plane, he'd not used any more fuel.
He'd not used the extra one and a half hours of fuel.
Yet he recalls the aircraft coming to a stop in the sky in this cobweb type effect or putting the brakes on without crashing and looking at the instruments and the aircraft was still flying at the same speed but it wasn't moving.
If that makes sense, listeners.
Was this reported to air traffic control as far as you know?
He didn't do it.
Did you say he didn't do it?
Well, well, no, for one thing, he said nobody would believe him.
And he also said he weren't equipped and he weren't licensed in this aircraft for night flying.
And how would he explain that?
He said, so it were best to say nothing.
Well, listen, you've got people in vastly different places all over this country listening to you tonight.
Mishagander, who is one of my tweeters from the United States, listens every week and is absolutely entranced by this.
My good mate from British Forces broadcasting Chris Pearson is listening in Germany tonight.
Hope you're doing well, Chris.
He's fascinated by this and he knows all the military bases, works, and a lot of them.
So you're definitely winning tonight, Paul.
We're going to do some more strangeness with you from this book called Truth Proof.
I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Paul, there is so much in this book and we're not going to have time for all of it, so we need to get you back on.
Also, because you've got another edition coming out, haven't you?
That's correct, yeah.
I'm sorry for being a bit boring with the title, people, but it's called Truth Proof to the Outer Nowhere.
And yeah, it's basically more of the same.
I've written a third one as well, which is about alien abduction.
And the second one, the third will follow quite quickly after, if I'm being truthful.
Well, listen, people are loving you who are tweeting.
And I haven't done everybody's, but thank you very much for your response.
Aid is the latest.
He just says loving it.
So, you know, it's going well.
All right.
I said we'd talk about the missing people.
This is serious and disturbing stuff.
11 missing persons cases, all in recent years.
Where do we start?
We can do some of them.
There is John Deakin in 2004.
This is, you know, they're all very sad stories.
His wife said, how did he vanish from the face of the earth?
He vanished, but his sandwiches, his walking boots, and his kit were still in his car.
He had no reason to run away from home.
That's correct.
And I'll quickly say that this has probably been the most difficult thing to research and write about because I've got full respect for the people that have gone missing in the tragedies that are left behind and their families have got to deal with it.
But John Deakin parked up November the 4th, 2004 at Flamberry, paid for a day's parking.
He was an avid walker.
It's something he'd done many times in the past and it'd just never been seen since.
And you said 11 men, Howard, but since writing Truth Proof, there's more.
And I'd also like to stress that although Flamber and Bempton have been known for suicides.
I've pointed out after going through archives in Bridlington, that it's no more a suicide spot than anywhere else in the country.
What happens is it becomes a prominent area because you've got the Coast Guard, you've got the Sea Rescue, you've got the Fire Brigade, you've got every professional service looking for these people.
If somebody goes missing in Bridlington town, you've just got the police looking for them usually.
And I've ruled out suicides.
Anybody who's sort of had an history of depression or left notes or been anything to suggest that, I've avoided it.
And indeed, in one of the cases that you look at, and this is a sad case, they're all sad cases of an 18-year-old, he vanished after he'd been researching RAF Bempton.
There's that name again.
He had an interest in an abandoned bunker there, which sounds fascinating and a little chilling in itself.
He parked the family Clio car, but if he was going to run away from home or do anything so drastic as to consider perhaps taking his own life, he wouldn't have paid for a number of days parking in the car park there and then vanished.
You just wouldn't, if you were in a desperate state like that, you wouldn't buy a parking ticket for, what was it, three days, maybe four days.
You obviously had some kind of plan.
Something happened.
Well, he actually bought a parking ticket for a day, Howard.
But early morning, he paid for a day's parking.
His last known whereabout, his last movements at home, he was looking on the computer at a website about the satanic graffiti and the satanic activities in R.F. Bempton after it closed in 1970.
And did he totally vanish?
Were there no sightings of him at all?
No sightings of him so ever since.
There was no suggestion that he were going to Bempton.
He was quite a well-adjusted young man.
I think he worked at Bishop Burton College or he was student there.
You know, he qualified driver and he went on his own by all accounts.
Absolute tragedy for his family who still have no idea what happened.
his parents out of all the missing people and I've never spoke to his parents but they worked tirelessly to keep his name prominent in the mainstream but as most of these missing men from around this area after a few months it just vanished It's 18-year-old Russell Bowling, B-O-H-L-I-N-G.
Look up that case.
It is strange and disturbing.
And my thoughts are with his family and anybody who knows him.
There is a man called David Binns, who is one of these missing people.
He too vanished seemingly off the face of the earth.
And all in the same area and all recent.
Interesting, I'll get to David Bins.
When Russell Bolin went missing, they knew he'd been looking at images of the Benton bunker, but nobody searched that bunker for five days.
David Binns went missing six months and seven days later, and the first thing they did was search the bunker.
That seems a bit random, doesn't it?
It does, really.
And I think, I mean, I'm not saying that Russell Bolin or any trace of Russell would have been in the bunker, but it really should have been searched as a priority, just in my opinion.
You know, and as I say, David Binns, never been seen again.
You know, and there's just so many.
Simon Hodgson in 2014.
He's never been seen again.
Edward Machin in 2014, 23rd of January, never been seen again.
And this man, Edward Machin, you talk about in 2014, it's only three years ago, for goodness sake.
Again, we get the name of RAF Bempton because his train journey was interrupted.
If I've read the book right here, and I only speed read the book today, but it was interrupted and he ended up having to go past Bempton and then he vanished without trace.
So his train journey ended early.
He had to go past Bempton.
There was a train, there was a fault with the train and it broke down at Scarborough and a taxi brought him to Bempton because that's where he was going.
And he ended up on Cliff Lane at Bempton and the CCTV of the Town Crier Cottage saw him walking up Bempton on Cliff Lane.
The only place to go on Cliff Lane is to the nature reserve and to the cliffs of Bempton.
Never been seen since.
What's interesting, Howard, is seven days later, 16 miles up the coast, Nigel Savage from Hull had gone, took his two dogs for a day's fishing.
Never been seen since.
This in midsummer murders.
It's all in the same area.
These are all tragedies, and of course, media attention moves on.
And it's only people like you who put these together.
Howard, I don't even think the police put it together because we are not saying that they are connected because we don't know that.
But they are worthy of more investigation that we can say.
And I'd like to stress that I'm not saying these disappearances are UFO-related or anything else.
I really don't have a clue what is responsible for these men's disappearance.
But in some of the cases, there is no indication of anybody who may be having issues, depression, that sort of stuff.
You know, these are human tragedies.
We will talk more about this, of course.
I just want to do very, very quickly, Matt, my producer, sorry, I know I'm overrunning a bit, but there is a story in the book, just to lighten it up slightly.
There was off the coast of Scarborough, and because I'm a complete radio nut, I know this, but there was a pirate radio ship.
Now, the northwest of England and the southeast had Radio Caroline and various ships like that.
Yorkshire had its own.
It was called Radio 270 off Scarborough.
And there were people, a friend of mine in radio, Paul Burnett, who used to be a Radio 1 DJ, also used to work at various other stations.
Paul worked on that.
So I can ask him about this.
But you say that there was the crew of Radio 270, which was off the coast of Scarborough, broadcasting to the north of England, reported seeing a UFO hovering above the ship.
That's correct.
It were early in 1966.
And what's interesting is, I think it's Paul Rusling and Chris Dannett who also worked on the boat.
And Paul Rusling, very well known in radio circles, yeah.
At first, Paul was skeptical, and then he did a bit of digging, and he found, he found, oh, his exact words were, it were widely talked about at the time.
And while they were on air, they talked about a luminous sphere of light Low in the sky above the boat, and what's interesting is, and I'll not say his name, but a retired coast guard from Hornsey who I contacted told me that when they were in the station, they used to listen to Radio 270 and the boat that rocked.
And they actually listened with absolutely avid interest while the UFO was being reported in 1966.
And it's quite an interesting story.
And I think the light ship at Sperm Point, which is basically a sploating lighthouse, also reported a UFO on the same night or seeing an unidentified flying object.
So yeah, a wonderful story.
Even in my own field, well, listener, if you want me to, I'll try and make contact with Paul Bonetti.
I know he was on that boat for, I think, most of the time it was there.
I was told the DJ, Alan West, wrote about this in a book.
Well, Alan West, very, very famous to those of us who know our pirate radio history.
Alan West was one of the great, I think he's still around, great voice, great juck, great DJ.
Paul Sinclair, we're out of time, unfortunately, and I've only just scratched the surface of this book.
I cannot speak, and I don't have an interest in it.
I'm not on a bung.
I cannot speak highly enough, and I have to tell you that you have got tonight some of the greatest rolling response to what you've been saying here.
So I know you were a little trepidatious about coming on the radio, but you've done a great job.
And, you know, your independent research can only be applauded by people like me.
I mean, I do research for a living, but you leave me standing when it comes to that.
So well done, Paul Sinclair.
The book.
The book, I've said it again, the book.
The book.
I've gone back to being Liverpool tonight.
I might as well go with the old Aug, mightn't I?
The book is called Truth Proof, The Truth That Leaves No Proof.
And how do we get it?
There are people in America who are tweeting here.
How would they get it and how do people generally get it?
It's available on Amazon.
It's available through my website, truthproof.webs.
I think it's.com or it might just be truthproof.webs.
And obviously, I think Waterstones do it, but it has to be ordered.
And the library service will do it as well, because I know a few libraries have bought them, but Amazon primarily.
It used to be available overseas on Amazon for some, but for some reason, I'm not being able to sell them overseas.
Not because they've been barred or anything like that.
I'm just having difficulties with Amazon.
So the American audience have ordered them through the UK and they've gone that way.
Well, we have to see what we can do about that because great book and is a fabulous, would make a great Christmas present for someone.
And I am not on a bung.
Paul Sinclair, we must get you on again.
And as they say in Yorkshire, you've done us proud.
Thank you.
That man is an absolute star.
Watch out for more from him.
Paul Sinclair.
And the book is called Truth Proof.
Look out for Volume 2 very soon.
And I promise you, I will be talking to him about that on this show.
That interview taken from my UK Talk Radio show.
Next up is somebody who was a real find.
He actually emailed me, and I'm really pleased that he did.
Dave O'Brien has been featured recently on a number of broadcasts, programs like Ted Wallishin's program in Canada, talking about his book to do with the JFK assassination, and of course now brought into great focus by the release of those 2,800 documents just days ago authorized by Donald J. Trump that have been kept secret.
There are still 300 documents that are not released, but there is some kind of campaign to get them out there.
Now, whether they shed any new light on it all has yet to be determined.
But Dave O'Brien has written a book called The View from the Oswald Window.
He's actually been to the site of that heinous crime and has done a lot of intensive research.
He is based in Canada, and he was very, very well worth speaking to, as you will hear.
To us, if you're a regular on this show, the idea that Lee Harvey Oswald actually was assisted in some way won't be at all new.
The question that will reverberate down the decades is, who else and what else was involved?
And that is where we're at today with the release of these files.
I think you know my take on all of this.
My view of it is, after 13, 14 years of doing this, if there had been some kind of high-level conspiracy, and there is every chance that there may have been, who was involved, we can talk about that until those cows come home.
But if there had been that kind of thing, do you really honestly think it would be documented and filed away for people to find in later years?
It's almost like a burglar submitting a tax return.
You know, on the 13th of April, I broke into 57 Cheevely Rise, and I stole a television set, a fridge, and a microwave oven.
Total value, £570.
No, of course not.
Similarly, if there was that kind of thing happening here in 1963, do you think it would have been officially documented?
Now, there may be a paper trail leading back that may cause us to have our own concerns and suppositions about all of this.
That's another thing.
So, do these 2,800 documents take us any nearer knowing any more is the big question.
My personal view is, I'm not sure.
But I want to get on now.
A man who's written a brand new book.
He's in Canada tonight, and his name is Dave O'Brien.
The book is looking at things from the perspective of that window in the Texas book depository where Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly fired off those shots in rapid succession and took the life of a man who had a lot of years left in him to innovate and make policy, John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Dave O'Brien in Canada, thank you very much for coming on The Unexplained Tonight.
My pleasure, Howard.
And also, Dave, for listening to all of that.
Please, if you disagreed with anything I said there, take me up on it right now.
Actually, I don't.
In fact, I wholeheartedly agree with one thing that you said, and that, in my opinion as well, a lot of files that will never be released because they were destroyed before they ever could be released.
And so I think that you're right on.
And the documents that were Released were really, there was no earth-shattering documents that came out of it.
But from my perspective and my own book, the thing that I was very happy about was there was a, there are now confirmed documents, FBI-CIA documents, establishing that there was a CIA-mafia alliance that was involved in political assassinations, especially Fidel Castro.
And I think that that is the boiling point over how John Kennedy ended up dead.
When you say the boiling point, how do you mean?
Well, I think everything centers around early 60s Cuba.
You had the Bay of Pigs invasion, and it's well known now through these documents that the CIA was training anti-Castro Cubans for the Bay of Pigs invasion, as well as assassination attempts against Fidel Castro that failed.
And after the Bay of Pigs itself failed in 1961, we then had the Cuban Missile Crisis.
And that was a peaceful resolve, as you know, and President Kennedy vowed never to invade Cuba.
And after that, I believe that the target switched from Fidel Castro to John Kennedy.
And it did so because the CIA was angry at him for the lack of air cover at the Bay of Pigs and the organized crime that they were involved with as well.
They wanted to, they funded the Bay of Pigs invasion and they wanted to get back into Havana where they used to own the casino operations under President Batista.
And when he was deposed, Castro took over the casinos, nationalized them.
He imprisoned Santo Traficanti, the crime boss from Florida, and he ousted Mayor Lansky and other crime bosses.
And they linked up with the CIA because they wanted to get their casinos back.
That was a lot of money to them.
And that's why Kennedy was targeted.
But we can only make an informed guess about this.
I have heard, I mean, what you've just said is one of a whole number of theories about this.
One of which, of course, and only one, is that Lee Harvey Oswald, who had his own sympathies, who had lived in Moscow, who had a Russian wife, acted entirely alone.
Yes, and I believe the evidence is now overwhelming that this did not happen.
Oswald has now been shown to have CIA contacts through a fellow by the name of David Ferry in Louisiana.
They go back to 1955, if not earlier, in the Civil Air Patrol where David Ferry was an instructor.
And Oswald, we have pictures of Oswald and Ferry together.
And David Ferry is a very well-known both CIA and organized crime fellow.
He worked for Louisiana crime boss Carlos Marcello during his deportation hearings.
He was a private pilot.
And it's believed that when Marcello was deported from the United States to Guatemala, it was David Ferry who flew him back in months later.
And so you've got Ferry connected with Marcello and the CIA.
And also, we also, one of these files also involved an FBI tape, a tap of Carlos Mocello, who actually confessed to the murder of President Kennedy on these taps.
And what about this man Ferry?
Is he still alive?
No, he died during the Jim Garrison investigation.
He was going to be called as a witness, and Garrison was pondering the possibility of also charging him with complicity.
But no, he died of apparent heart attack during the Jim Garrison investigation.
Of course, there were other people who died around this, weren't there?
There were people who died in the years subsequent to the death of John F. Kennedy, people who might have known stuff.
Over 100 people died in the 10 years following the assassination, which is astronomical in the odds of that happening.
And the most famous name that perhaps your listeners may be aware of is Dorothy Kilgallen.
She was not only a respected reporter for a New York publication, but she was on the popular TV show, What's My Line?
Well, she was the only person, Howard, to get an exclusive interview with Jack Ruby during his, while he was awaiting a retrial.
Now, we have to explain, and this will come up also in an interview that we're going to run at the back end of this hour with Governor Jesse Ventura, who has also investigated these things, who you may well be aware of.
But Dorothy Kilgallen, for people who don't know, in this country, and it is something that hasn't had a lot of coverage in the UK, she will be better known in the US.
She was a very successful journalist.
She was so successful that she was on a TV panel game.
That's how successful she was on a regular basis.
Very intelligent woman, very high profile.
And you tell me if I'm wrong in the bones of this, but she was going to come out with something about the death of JFK.
And then suddenly, a woman at the peak of her powers with no reason to commit suicide is found dead in circumstances that suggest that that's what she did.
That's absolutely correct.
She emerged from that interview with Jack Ruby, and the only thing she would say was that what Jack Ruby told me will shatter the world.
And of course, she said nothing else because she wanted to write about it and have the scoop of a lifetime.
Less than two weeks later, Howard, she was found dead in her apartment from alcohol and barbituid poisoning.
She wasn't a drinker.
Her friends call it mysterious for sure.
She just had the exclusive of a lifetime.
There was no reason to take her own life.
Her notes from that interview with Jack Ruby were never found.
And a close personal friend of Dorothy Kilgallen's was also found dead from a karate chop to her neck less than 10 days after Dorothy Kilgallen died.
So it's unsolved.
But I can report to you that the New York District Attorney Present day, Cyrus Vance has just announced that the Dorothy Kilgallen murder, as he calls it now, based on new information, has now been reopened.
So we may hear more information down the road.
But of course, if we do, that path will lead back to some very unpleasant material, possibly linked to the subject about which we're talking now, JFK.
Exactly.
And also, by the way, Dorothy Hill Gallen was the person who was writing a book at the time of her death that was going to expose the secret or the sex affairs of President Kennedy, including Marilyn Monroe,
and including a German spy that she had divulged in a couple of reports in the newspaper, as well as a lady that you may be familiar with as well, Judith Campbell Exner, who not only was sleeping with President Kennedy, was also sleeping with Sam Giancana, the Chicago crime boss, who I believe was involved in the assassination as well.
It's a deep and dirty business.
And the connections within these spirals of plotting and the machinations of it are...
They'd have been deeply, deeply secret.
For sure.
And the documents reveal some really fascinating things.
They reveal that they were more concerned, the FBI and the CIA were more concerned with their own failings pertaining to Oswald than to finding any evidence that would suggest that there might have been a conspiracy of sorts.
So both had interests to make sure that it was just Oswald and to sweep everything else under the carpet.
And that was evident from day one.
And now the documents that have come out are showing that.
And when you say their own failings as regards Lee Harvey Oswald, in the next segment of our conversation, I want to talk more about him and your visit to the Texas book depository where the shots were fired from.
But we'll do that in the next segment.
What failings would they have made?
You mean that they didn't make it more clear or that they didn't draw the finger of suspicion more clearly towards him?
In other words, they left room for doubt.
Well, as far as the FBI goes, to give you an example, the FBI was aware and had Oswald under surveillance.
And just a matter of weeks before the assassination, they had interviewed Marina Oswald, his wife.
Lee Oswald was very angry about that, and he walked into the FBI office where this agent, James Hostie, was stationed, and he wasn't there.
So he left a threatening note for the FBI to leave his wife alone in particular.
And then when the assassination occurred, Hosti, instead of filing it and submitting it to the Warren Commission, destroyed it.
So he destroyed evidence pertinent to the assassination.
What's really interesting about the whole thing is that the FBI knew that Oswald worked at the book depository building.
And even though three days before the visit, the map was published in the papers that showed the motorcade would pass through or by the Oswald window, in the book depository window, in the book depository building, the FBI did absolutely nothing to put Oswald under surveillance and do anything.
I mean, it's just a red flag.
I mean, we have heard a lot of talk about the CIA being involved, that other armature of security in the U.S., the CIA being complicit in some way, it is claimed, in this.
But the FBI complicit in that, although they may not have actually been part of the plot, they knew about it and they didn't do anything about it.
They knew it.
They knew that they failed to surveil Oswald correctly, and they certainly participated in the cover-up aspect of the assassination for sure.
And that was to cover their butt more than anything.
And all these years down the track, we're never going to be able to, you are never going to be able to stand any of this up and absolutely prove it, are you?
100%.
No, you're right, Howard.
But I think these documents are encouraging.
They show that there was some sinister stuff going on between the CIA and organized crime and the mafia.
They show the failings of the intelligence agencies involved in protecting the President of the United States, as well as investigating it afterward.
And so the Warren Commission, I feel bad for the Warren Commission, I used to criticize them like crazy, but they were completely kept in the dark on so many of these documents that have come out now.
I bet that nine out of ten documents that just came out, the Warren Commission never saw.
Okay, Dave, I want to talk now about Lee Harvey Oswald, this man who is said to have done it all by himself and who history and the belief of American people shows that he may well not have been acting alone.
And it is disingenuous to suggest that he was, perhaps.
So talk to me about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Well, he definitely is a character that is more sinister and more accomplished in the intelligence community and in the underground of anti-Castro movements and stuff like that than we are led to believe.
So I believe where I break with many of my conspiracy theorist colleagues, I believe that Oswald was involved in the assassination.
I just don't think he was one of the assassins that fired that day in Daly Plaza.
I think his job, Howard, was to simply get the sixth floor window ready for the actual assassin, because he worked in the building and he had access to the window and he could do that.
What he didn't know was that his weapon was going to be brought into the building and set up and pre-fired shells were going to be left behind and it would all lead back to Lee Harvey Oswald as the sole assassin of President Kennedy.
So you're saying that this man was recruited, and we can get into by whom, to be a facilitator, to make sure that The scene was set, the place where this would happen was readied, and then the person who actually did this would be able to exit the building with stealth and ease.
Yes, I believe that he was part of a plot to assassinate the president.
One of the points that I make in the book is that the window that he chose is a terrible choice if there was a lone assassin involved here.
But there wasn't a lone assassin.
There were two other assassins at play, and that became evident when I went to the window, because if I was a lone assassin, that was the worst possible sniper's nest you could possibly have.
There was even a better location for a sniper, a lone assassin sniper, in the same building on the same floor.
How they chose that window is beyond me.
I just don't believe that it made any sense whatsoever to use that window.
That is bizarre, isn't it?
If there was a better location, if you were going to do this and you were going to do this effectively, then you would find somewhere else, unless you wanted to leave questions open subsequently, unless you wanted to add an air of mystery and indecision and this veil of fog that we've had over the case for all of these years.
Well, if I may, Howard, the thing that really stands out when you were at the window itself.
And we've got to say that you got access to the window of the Texas Book Depository at a time when they were not letting people in.
Correct.
Okay, and just before we get into that, how did it feel to be there and stand there and know what had happened there?
Well, it was to say eerie undermines it.
I don't know how many of your listeners have ever been to Daly Plaza, Howard, but I'm assuming there's quite a few, actually.
And there's an X on the road on Elm Street, and that's the exact location where the president's life ended, based on the headshot.
And so if you're in Daly Plaza and you look at the X on the road, that's a very eerie feeling.
I took it a step above that.
I was allowed into the building.
I went up to the so-called Oswald window where we know at least two shots came from.
And to stand at that window knowing that history occurred, even though I was just pretending to be the assassin at the window, my hands were sweaty.
I was nervous.
It was just a terrible feeling, really.
Just terrible.
And the only thing that was overwhelming after that was the observations I made that made it absolutely ridiculous that one person could have shot all three shots from that window and then made a successful escape.
Whereas if the other alternative was used, as I indicate in the book, the escape becomes much easier.
But it's still not an ideal location for what happened, and further adding fuel to the fire that says that bullets fired from that window could not have done that amount of damage and been that effective.
There had to be other bullets coming from somewhere else.
There had to be.
To give you an example, Howard, if you're looking at the window, straight out the window, you're looking onto Houston Street.
And so the limousine for a short time was approaching Oswald or whoever that assassin was in the window.
I don't think it was Oswald.
It was approaching him.
The assassin allowed the, rather than take that much easier shot, the assassin allowed the president's motorcade to make a left-hand turn immediately below him and begin to move away from him on Elm Street before he began the shooting.
And therein brings the second problem, and that's the oak tree.
The oak tree on Elm Street, there's a picture that I took from the window.
It's on my website and it's in my book.
And it shows that the assassin from that window could not have begun firing at the president until, obviously, Mr. Kennedy had cleared the foliage of the tree.
The problem is that between the clearing of the tree and the overpass just ahead, it was a very short distance, minimizing his firing time.
And I believe that that still took place, that scenario still took place, because I believe the assassin at that window had to allow the limousine to make a left-hand turn so the president could enter the trap for what I call a triangulation of crossfire so that two other assassins could participate in shooting the president.
But if you were wanting to pin it all on Lee Harvey Oswald, who said, I'm a Patsy, then you would have given him a better location, wouldn't you?
I would have, for sure.
And that's it.
It just wasn't thought out, and I think it wasn't thought out because it wasn't a lone assassin.
This wasn't ever carried out from the perspective of a lone assassin.
It was carried out from the perspective that there were three assassins, and each of them had to have an opportunity to fire at the president in order to guarantee a very successful assassination.
But if it was such a professional job and there was a kind of jackal type character in the Texas book depository who was going to take shots at the president and those shots will be augmented by other shots that would hit the president from somewhere else and that's a trap that his motorcade would have gone into automatically.
Wouldn't a professional hit person have said, this is a lousy location.
I am not going to take the risk of doing this here because it's not going to work and we might get caught?
Absolutely, Howard.
I mean, look at it this way.
I was a 27-year-old journalist when I was at the window, and it took me literally under two minutes at that location to say, wait a minute, this is terribly wrong.
Even as I was approaching the window, even before I got there, the vibes weren't right.
I looked at the window and I noticed immediately, and you'll see that on the website or in my book, in order for me to fire out the window, I had to either kneel or crouch.
I couldn't stand there and fire like Wyatt Earp.
That would have been ridiculous.
I couldn't steady myself in any way, shape, or form.
I had to, if I was the lone assassin, it was a very unsteady position in which to carry out a very precise assassination.
It just didn't make sense as I was walking to the window.
And then when I got to the window, it just, it told me that this whole scenario is ridiculous when it comes to one assassin and nobody else.
So Oswald did, was there as a facilitator, and he thought that he was going to walk out of that building and say, what a terrible thing has happened here today.
And he would just be talked to by the security services, as everybody was on that day, and he would be allowed to go free.
Is that what we believe?
Yes, 100%.
And I think what happened, if I may, is that, because I did a test in the book depository.
You may know, Howard, that 90 seconds after the assassination, Oswald was seen on the second floor lunchroom of the building.
He was confronted by a Dallas police officer, Marion Baker.
90 seconds after the assassination, Baker observed Oswald, had a gun pointed at him, said that he was totally calm and relaxed.
The escort that the officer had said, oh, he works here.
He had a right to be here.
And off they went to find somebody of suspicion.
But it wasn't Oswald.
So I did my own test when I was there.
I took the stairs as Oswald did, and I could get to the second floor lunchroom in 90 seconds.
But when I got there, I was out of breath.
I was clammy.
I was slightly perspiring.
And if then, if I turned around and there was a policeman with a gun at my head, and I had just shot the President of the United States, I don't think I would be calm in any way, shape, or form as Oswald was.
And so what happened was, I believe, Oswald was in the second floor lunchroom.
He had set up the window just as he thought.
But there was such a convergence on the book depository building by police within seconds of the assassination, it made him nervous.
And he just left the building hurriedly.
He went home, got a gun, and then the rest is also history.
So he realized this hasn't gone as we thought it was going to go.
Somebody told him, you'll play your role, and then you'll be in the clear.
And that's why he was seen apparently calm very soon after this happened.
And I can't imagine anybody who would commit an act like that unless they were completely brainwashed and completely almost a Manchurian candidate.
Unless that's what they were, then they wouldn't be as calm as he appeared in that situation when he was questioned immediately or seen immediately after.
It's astonishing.
One of the things that appeared on the front page of at least one of our newspapers yesterday, Dave, is that, according to these newly released papers, they show that Oswald went to Mexico City for talks with a Russian assassination chief.
What's that all about?
Do you know?
Well, I don't think that there's much to it.
I think that Oswald was simply trying to get back to the Soviet Union, and he was trying to do that by speaking to someone at the Soviet embassy in Mexico City directly.
And when that didn't go well, he then went to the Cuban embassy in Mexico City, hoping to get a visa to the Soviet Union via Cuba.
So as far as the talking to the assassinations expert from the Soviet Union, I think that's just the person that he ended up speaking to because he was stationed in Mexico City at the time.
But that is, by no coincidence, Howard, the documents that are still to be released now, April 26th of 2018.
And I think we'll learn a lot more about what Oswald did at the embassies in Mexico City and whether or not it was just him trying to get back to the Soviet Union or whether there was something more involved remains to be seen.
But at this point, we don't know.
Why was Oswald impersonated?
Why were there people or a person sent out to look like him?
Well, I think, Howard, if Oswald was set up as the guy that he was obviously told to set up the window, and then his rifle was brought in, so it was clear from the outset that he was going to be set up as the sole assassin.
And part of that strategy is to make sure that he does rather unorthodox things in the days and the weeks prior to the assassination to leave so-called fingerprints around that the man was capable of violence or had a temper or this or that.
And so, yes, there are all kinds of reports about a second Oswald, including a man in Mexico City that went in and posed as Oswald.
And so that means that there was two trips.
Well, one was actually Oswald, as we now know, but there was also a second man that went in posing as Oswald in Mexico City.
But there were other things closer to the Dallas area than which they tried to frame Oswald.
And of course, you might also remember he took a shot at Admiral, I'm sorry, General Walker, and that was also brought into evidence to show that he had the capacity for violence, and therefore he could have been the assassin of President Kennedy.
The problem there is, of course, was that General Walker was sitting in his study at home, and Oswald missed him with a single shot, and so he couldn't even hit a stationary man with a single shot.
But we are expected to believe that he could have shot a moving target three times in 5.6 seconds.
The whole thing is absurd.
What about the idea that's come out in the newspapers here?
And I dimly remember hearing somebody say this a long time ago, but it's not something that's been hugely prominent.
The idea that the Dallas Police Department itself was in some way complicit.
That stretches credulity a long way.
What's your take on that thought?
Well, I think if there is any involvement by the Dallas Police Department, I think it's in the aftermath.
Jack Ruby, we now know, knew up to 80% of all Dallas police officers because...
He just stepped forward.
Oswald was being brought out in front of television cameras, very famous footage, calmed him down.
And Jack Ruby was a nightclub owner, wasn't he, who was very well connected in Dallas.
Yes, and he also was an organized crime figure, just so you know.
And the documents that have been released seem to indicate that as well.
But where the Dallas Police Department comes into suspicion is the fact that they couldn't protect Oswald in their custody, despite the fact that they received all kinds of death threats against Oswald.
They couldn't protect him or they didn't want to.
Well, there's the question, Howard.
There's no evidence to suggest they didn't want to, but certainly their actions afterwards leave a lot to be desired.
And of course, we have the belief that because Ruby knew all kinds of officers at the Dallas Police Department, that they helped him get into the basement of the Dallas jail at the precise moment that Oswald was being transferred, because at that morning, all newsmen and the TV stations that were carrying it live were told to be at the Dallas basement at 10 a.m.
Well, the transfer was delayed by quite a while, but there was no Ruby at 10 a.m.
But at 1117 a.m., Ruby does his business outside across the street.
He walks into the basement of the Dallas jail.
He had to have walked past at least two Dallas police officers.
And he took his position, and within 30 seconds later, Oswald is paraded out.
Ruby shoots him, and the conspiracy or the cover-up begins.
So that comes to the failings of the Dallas Police Department and Ruby's ability to somehow know, and the only person in America who knew exactly when Oswald would be transferred from in the Dallas basement.
So you think that Jack Ruby was very much more than the patriot that he was initially, the misguided patriot that he was portrayed to be immediately after the killing, a man who was so enraged by the killing of the president that he had to take out the man who did it?
It was nonsense.
He said that he wanted to spare Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of returning to Dallas for a trial.
But in the papers, newspapers found in his apartment after he was taken into custody, there was an article in the Dallas Morning News that he had circled that said that Mrs. Kennedy would not have to return to Dallas, that she could just file a deposition, and that was good enough for the court.
And so Ruby, I believe, was involved with organized crime.
And when Oswald survived and was not taken out, perhaps by Dallas Police Officer J.D. Tippett, but we don't know, Ruby was then brought in to assassinate Oswald and silence him.
And we now know through police records that have been released in documents that Jack Ruby made an incredible amount of phone calls to organized crime types of individuals that he was associated with in the weeks leading up to the assassination.
And so we know that there's a link there.
But if this was such a plot, a well-engineered plot, we've already heard actually that there were holes in it at the Texas Book Depository.
But if it was a plot that had been put together by professionals, why would they need to be worried about what Lee Harvey Oswald might say?
Because he'd been so stitched up, if you believe that he had been, as we say here in the UK, that anything that he said wouldn't be accepted?
Well, certainly there would have been skepticism right from moment one.
But I think that he could not have been allowed to live to stand trial.
Because had he been alive for a trial, then a lot of the evidence that ended up suppressed by the Warren Commission and by the FBI and the CIA would have come out at a trial.
And under skilled cross-examination by defense attorneys, if Oswald had those, I think a lot more information would have come out that indicated that he may have been involved, and I believe he was, but that he wasn't by himself.
And that just simply could not be allowed to come to the public domain.
So actually, if you buy the idea that this was some kind of cabal of people who got together to take out the president at a quite high level, and there were people of importance involved in this, they didn't do it very well, did they?
Well, they didn't do it very well, but I can tell you something.
They did it with the knowledge that President Johnson would lock up files about the assassination for 75 years and that we weren't supposed to know the truth until 2038.
And so this is where I give a little bit of leeway to the Warren Commission.
They were denied all kinds of information from the FBI and CIA, which is now coming out in these files that have been released.
But everything that they dealt with was under the premise that nobody would see anything until 2038.
And therefore, just so you know, the film, the Zapruder film was never seen for 12 years until 1975.
So nobody ever saw what happened after the fatal headshot.
Where was the Zapruder film kept, by the way?
Just remind me where it was kept, because it wasn't kept where you would have thought.
This is the famous color film.
It's the only film of the assassination that exists, taken by Mr. Zapruder.
Where was that held until it was released?
It was held by Life magazine.
They bought the rights to it.
And when they, by the way, when they published stills of the film, of the assassination, because they own the rights, they never showed anything beyond Frame 312, which is the fatal headshot.
And so they were part of it.
So nobody knew for 12 years that the president's head moved violently backward.
And then when the Warren report comes out saying that Oswald fired all shots from behind, there was no evidence or reason to believe that that wasn't the case.
Tell me if I'm right about this, because I only realize this today, that the Warren Commission didn't actually use photographs of Kennedy's head.
They actually used sketches that were taken from those photographs.
So they never actually saw or considered the actual photographs of the damaged done to his head.
Am I right there?
You're absolutely 100% right.
Instead of photographs and x-rays of the president, the Warren Commission decided that it was a better taste to provide artistic schematic drawings of the wounds.
And I can understand that because I've seen some of the actual photographs and x-rays.
But equally, look, as a reporter, and you've probably had to do this as a journalist too, I had to attend murder trials, and I have seen the photographs that members of the jury were shown in one particular case, and they were sick-makingly, stomach-turningly awful.
In this case, you would have thought they would see the photographs, and they wouldn't have those reservations about taste.
But this is just one of so many things, Adeb, that will be talked about, I think, for another 50 years.
Sum up for me just finally, would you, before I let you plug the book, of course.
Who you believe then now, at this distance of time, knowing that there will be people who say this is just absurd to think that anybody other than the loan government did it, but who do you believe did this?
What was the cabal made up of?
I believe the cabal was made up of rebel elements of the CIA, which is to say that it wasn't an organized CIA plot.
Rebel elements, namely E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis.
These two individuals were involved in training anti-Castro Cubans for the Bay of Pigs invasion, as well as they were involved in assassination attempts against Fidel Castro.
And they did that in an alliance with three specific members of organized crime, all heads of families.
That was Santos Traficante in Florida, it was Sam Giancana of Chicago, and Carlos Marcello of Louisiana.
Those three individuals wanted to get back at Kennedy because Kennedy had betrayed them by Bobby Kennedy putting all kinds of pressure on them in the Justice Department after they helped Kennedy get elected.
And I think that alliance in which we can now tie in Oswald and Ruby to both the CIA and organized crime, I think that's the cabal that ended up killing President Kennedy on November 22nd, 1963.
And the FBI helped along the way, you think, by making sure that there were many clouds over this and a lot of obfuscation that we never really got to hear very much more than we have heard, you think?
Yes, they were definitely the chief investigative arm of the Warren Commission.
And so in essence, they were responsible for a lot of failed information, withheld information, misinformation that was passed along to the Warren Commission.
And for years, they are the ones, more than anyone, who has been responsible for the cover-up.
Dave O'Brien, thank you for doing this.
Last question for you.
Why did you want to do this?
I wanted to do it because at the age of 13, I was able to get my hands on all the Warren Commission volumes, all 26 plus the summary edition.
And I read it.
It took me 18 months to read it.
And I could see at my age, 13 and 14, that there were omissions, there were contradictions, there were just mistakes like crazy.
It got me into writing to people.
And to my astonishment, a couple of people wrote back, like Dr. Malcolm Perry, who was the first doctor to see the president.
And from there, it just became a hobby.
And it grew from there.
And it's never stopped.
I just have an appetite for it.
And now, of course, with the documents release, it's all back in the news.
And I just thought it's time to write my book.
How's it doing?
It's doing very well so far, I'm pleased to report.
You've been making some sales in the UK.
Well, I think you might make a few more after tonight.
So tell us the title of the book and how you can get it.
The book is Through the Oswald Window.
The book is available at my website, which is throughtheoswaldwindow.com, or it's also available on Amazon.com.
Dave O'Brien, the book is called Through the Oswald Window, and I'm really pleased that we found him, and we will be hearing more from him.
The subject of who killed John F. Kennedy and why that happened will reverberate down some more decades.
I think it's already been 54 years, very nearly, since the assassination in Dallas, Texas.
And there are almost as many theories as there are years that have passed.
I wonder if we'll still be asking this question in 50 years from now.
Maybe, maybe not.
But we'll see what those remaining 300 documents, if they're ever released, have to tell us.
And before that, of course, you heard Paul Sinclair, his book, Truth Proof, Volume 2, out very soon.
Very proud of Paul.
Great author and a great guest on this show.
Next time round, we ought to have, my fingers across, one of our biggest guests returning to the show.
More details of that you will find on the website coming soon.
Please stay in touch with me, won't you?
Go to the website theunexplained.tv, send me an email, and when you get in touch, tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show.
And if you can make a donation to it, that'd be great too.
The website designed by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
Thank you, Adam, for all of your hard work is theunexplained.tv.
More great guests coming soon.
And so until next, we meet here in the November greyness in London Town.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained.
And please stay safe.
Please stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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