The Unexplained - Howard Hughes - Edition 314 - Wright Patterson Airbase

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Oct. 2, 2017 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:15:30

Edition 314 - Wright Patterson Airbase

Ray Szymanski - who says he worked at a place where it's been claimed UFOs and ETs may bekept...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Thank you very much for your emails.
	As I promised on the last two shows, I'm going to do a lot of shout-outs and dealing with the points that you raise in this edition.
	Beautiful sunny day as I record this.
	For weather fans, not a cloud in the sky.
	It's a little chilly because it's now October.
	And inexorably, here in London, we are moving towards whatever this winter will bring.
	I've said it before, I don't do cold, so I'm not exactly looking forward to it.
	But, you know, next March is not too far away, is it?
	If you get in touch with the show, please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
	Very useful for me personally to know that information.
	The place to do it is the website designed by Adam from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, the website theunexplained.tv, and there's a link there for sending emails and also a link, if you can, for making a donation to the show.
	As I've said before, a Starbucks coffee or a coffee from a big coffee company, maybe, I don't know, $3, $4 in the US, maybe £2 upwards of that, certainly north of £2 in the UK.
	If you can donate even half of that to the unexplained, it would be massively useful to allow us to develop the show and give you the things that you want on it.
	You know, the enhanced website experience and more shows.
	At the moment, we can't do those things because I have to work.
	And, you know, that is hard enough as it is.
	So, you know, I really want to develop this.
	If you can help me to do it, then please do.
	Of course, if you can't and don't think that it's worth it, that's all cool.
	That's fine.
	But if you can make a donation, please do go to the website theunexplained.tv.
	The guest on this show, Ray Jermansky, who says that he worked as an engineer at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, a place of deep secrecy, and some claim a place where UFOs and the beings within them reside or have resided.
	He says he worked there.
	He's written a book.
	We'll talk to him coming soon.
	Shout outs then.
	Let's get quickly to them.
	Davin Lester says, got through the back catalogue pretty much.
	You are, in my opinion, the best introduction to these topics in media currently.
	And I want to see you go from strength to strength.
	Thank you, Dave, for your support.
	Ian in Berkshire really didn't like the show with Sharon Daphner.
	Not convinced either by her or by me.
	Wanted more scientific detail.
	Thanks, Ian.
	Sean in Liverpool says that I was unfair to Sharon because I homed in on the fact that she was selling a product.
	And I don't do that with authors, he said.
	Well, I don't know.
	I have challenged authors about selling books, but I think the difference between a product and a book is a book is full of ideas.
	And a product actually claims to physically do something, if you believe that it does.
	And I think that is the difference, and that's why I made the challenge.
	But I do take your point on board, Sean, from my home city, and I will bear it in mind in future, and thank you.
	Kelly in Kansas says, ReSharon Daffner, I don't know if Organite works, but my small cloud busters immediately set off household voltage readers when they're about.
	Okay, thanks, Kelly.
	Dowen in Florida says, I wanted to put in a big thank you for the show with Sharon Dafner.
	I'm sure many skeptical listeners will already be filling your inbox with negativity about it, but she was very well spoken and clear.
	Thanks, Dowin.
	Heike thinks Sharon's deluded.
	Josh says, I'm sorry to say, but anybody who's openly talking about chemtrails and then putting UFOs into this mix is essentially talking what Josh says is BS.
	Julian Voloshin says, I've been a devoted listener of the show for years.
	Keep up the excellent work.
	Can't agree with you on everything.
	The world would be boring if we all agreed on everything, wouldn't it?
	But I respect your integrity.
	The James Burke show was one of the best.
	Thank you, Julian.
	David Cummings wants to know if my shows are available in one big download.
	David, no, you've got to get them individually, but thanks for the email.
	Stephen Croydon, dreams about real people and places, but the dreams have slight differences from reality.
	I think a lot of us have that, and it is well worth exploring why the mind or whatever it is makes those changes.
	Thanks, Steve.
	Emily in Washington has a marketing idea, t-shirts and mugs, something to think about for the future, because I know the big shows do those things, and we should be too.
	You're right.
	Aiden says your recent interview with Steve Bassett was one of your best.
	Thank you, Aiden.
	Paul in Boston, though, says Steve Bassett is fake news.
	All right, Paul, thanks.
	Mike in New Orleans says Steve Bassett continues to become an unreliable source.
	I believe we're not alone, but I have a hard time believing anything he says about disclosure.
	But I still love the show.
	Thank you, Mike in New Orleans.
	John Wilkes, thank you for your kind comments, John.
	Chris in Wakefield, Yorkshire, good to hear from you again.
	Neil Dawr in Ottawa, nice to hear from you.
	Todd in Houston, Texas, good to hear from you.
	Jeff in New York, ditto.
	Hello, Howard.
	I think this is from Doug.
	I'm sorry I didn't write down the name, should have before I came here to do this, but apologies for that.
	I love your show.
	I have a Mandela effect type of experience that I'd like to share.
	Now, the Mandela Effect is, for those of you who haven't heard what this is, it is claimed there are some people who have a different memory of what became of the savior of South Africa, Nelson Mandela.
	Some people have a memory of him dying on Robin Island, the prison island that he was kept, and not actually getting out and not becoming president.
	Similarly, my emailer here says he remembers a show called Joe on TV for kids in the 60s or 70s.
	And it was about a character whose parents ran a cafe for truck drivers, basically.
	But he can't find anybody else who remembers the show.
	I don't, I have to say.
	And I was watching TV at the same time.
	That's interesting.
	So is that an alternative reality?
	Or was there a show that's been forgotten?
	Daniel, an American in Germany, tells me this story that I think you'd like to hear.
	Daniel says, in 78, I was an Army Reserve Officer's Training Corps cadet in the Midwest.
	I was with a group of 10 other cadets.
	We were conducting an exercise.
	As we were nowhere near a military installation, we were doing our training in a large nature preserve, heavily wooded, with rolling hills.
	The time was probably about 30 minutes before dusk in September.
	The sun was below the horizon.
	There was some light left.
	I was leading a group and we were lost.
	We emerged from the tree line and looked out over an open field that was bound by a fence and a field.
	There, hanging in the sky above the fence, was a glowing orb in the shape of a Chinese lantern.
	I remember it being yellowish-orange in colour and pulsating.
	It zoomed up, paused, and then dived down again and flew along the top of the corn at great speed.
	It paused again, about halfway from the middle of the field, hung in the air, rose straight up and then flew out of sight at amazing speed.
	The total time, 30 seconds or so.
	Everybody in the group saw it.
	Somebody asked me what it was.
	I said, that's a UFO.
	Don't worry about that.
	We have bigger problems.
	We are lost.
	Wow.
	Like to know more about that, Daniel.
	Daniel likes the show, tells me not to change a thing about it.
	Thanks, Daniel, and thank you for the story.
	Sam says, my mother was interviewed on your program in about 1952.
	Not that it wasn't even a year then.
	That was many years before I arrived in this world.
	Sam, can you tell me a little bit more about this interview with your mother?
	Because I don't recall it.
	You've got to give me dates and, you know, a couple of specifics.
	Where was it?
	Of the many places that I've worked.
	Jesse says, thank you for the podcast.
	There have been many times recently listening to your show.
	It's been the highlight of my day.
	It makes me think.
	When I think deeply, I begin to wonder.
	I wonder about the expanding universe.
	Quantum physics.
	I wonder about cultures and civilizations.
	Politics and economics.
	I wonder about the physical and the spiritual.
	For a few moments when I listen, I can wonder.
	You have a positive impact on people.
	Jesse, thank you so much for that.
	Comments like that make it all worthwhile, really.
	Thank you very much.
	Keep your emails coming and thank you for your support and kind thoughts.
	They are needed and gratefully received here.
	Right, let's get on to Ray Zemansky, who says that he worked at Wright-Pat Air Force Base and has written a book about his experiences.
	I think you'll find Ray interesting.
	Ray, thank you very much for coming on the show.
	Absolutely pleased to be here.
	Ray, whereabouts are you in the U.S.?
	Tell me where.
	I'm in Dayton, Ohio area, so I'm about five minutes drive to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	All right, so you're right on the doorstep of the thing still.
	Just before we start to talk here, I just want to explain to my listener that we've had an issue trying to do this on Skype Digital Connection.
	I've tried searching your contact, and we won't give that out now on the show, but it comes up as non-existent.
	And you've tried searching me, and I've tried searching me, and I come up as non-existent.
	Now, there may be nothing at all sinister in this.
	It may just be a Skype issue, because Skype is now in new ownership, as we all know.
	Or there may be something else in it, but it is the strangest thing.
	We've tried multiple times to do this on the Quality Skypeline, and according to what I see, you do not exist.
	That's terrible news.
	Well, it is, especially as I'm speaking to you now by phone.
	As they say, the rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
	You've written a book, and you've detailed your experiences, you say, at Wright Pat Air Force Base.
	Do you think that there are people taking an interest in you and what you are doing?
	Yeah, I can see that as a possibility, but I don't think that there has been anything dramatic that I've seen as a response to their interest, although there has been a long, continuous string of what I would refer to as denial of service attacks.
	For example, just prior to my book getting published, I was trying to upload the drafts to CreateSpace so that they could review that and they could put it through their automatic software to look for issues such as photographs that might be less than 300 dpi, that sort of thing.
	And suddenly, I'm having these unusual issues with my internet provider where I never had an issue before.
	And it would just halfway through the transmission, it would stop, and I'd have to start all over again.
	It was just so annoying.
	I had three techs come out on three different occasions and look at my computer and the connections, and they could not understand why I was having any issue whatsoever.
	Okay, well, I've had other people say that they've had similar things in the past, and whether these are just coincidences or whether it's something else, I guess we ain't going to know.
	But I'm glad we're able to talk by old-fashioned telephone now, at least.
	Talk to me about your work at Wright-Patterson Air Base, then.
	All I know about you is that you say that you were an engineer there.
	Yeah, that's true.
	I started in 1973 as what was known as a cooperative education student.
	So several of us from the University of Detroit arrived on a very cold January day.
	It was gray as it is here in the Midwest in January.
	We had no idea what we were doing.
	The base was gigantic.
	You know, it has about 8,000 acres.
	It was divided into three separate areas.
	So we were clearly fish out of water.
	And here was this famous Air Force base that we were going to start work at.
	So as a co-op student, you're put into the wing, as it were, of a mentor.
	And my mentor is a person by the name of Al, who I talk about significantly in the book.
	What did you know about Wright-Patterson Air Base at that time?
	What had you been told about it and its function?
	Of course, it serves a very important role in America's defense.
	Yes, well, when we came in, the cooperative education director handed us a sheet and said, hey, you know, there are these cooperative education co-op jobs open.
	Why don't you read about this place, see if you're interested in doing that kind of work?
	So you read over like a little data sheet.
	And of course, it didn't say anything about aliens or UFOs.
	It, you know, talked about Air Force Logistics Command and Material Command, which were there, I think, at the time, and that sort of thing, and Air Force Research Labs, which was spinning up a large group of people there.
	And they were very interested in recruiting engineers.
	So it was going to be defense electronics is what we were going to be working on.
	And what was your specialism?
	What could you do?
	What could you offer?
	Well, I was an electrical engineering student, and I was from Detroit at the time.
	And honestly, Detroit was a mechanical town.
	It's where they built all the cars.
	And except for the radio and a few other things, there weren't any electronics whatsoever in the vehicle.
	So there really wasn't much work in Detroit.
	Didn't seem like much of a career.
	So don't let me pick your stocks.
	Obviously, I can't predict the future.
	But back at the time, it looked like a great idea.
	So we went down there and we would do things like every three months, we work three months on the base, then we'd come back for three months of schooling.
	And I settled through a place like an integrated circuit facility where we learned how they created integrated circuits from scratch.
	They designed them, they cut the Ruby Lyft, they laid out all the etchings, they created the integrated circuits on the chip, they cut them, they wirebound them, they put them in the packages, and they tested them.
	So it was from ground zero through the end.
	So the Air Force was basically spinning up their own capacity to create integrated circuits back in 1960.
	Those things were available then, Ray.
	Why were they not buying them in?
	Why were they doing them in-house?
	Well, I think the laboratory wants to become what we call smart buyers.
	And you want people who understand the physics of it, the electronics of it, the packaging of it.
	So if we needed a contractor to create a custom IC for us, it could be any application, a missile, a rocket, that we were smart enough to guide the process and not just throw them a spec and let them go off and make something.
	Right, so you're actually showing them what you want.
	Showing them what they want, giving them the right specs, specing this out, understanding what it is we're buying rather than just cutting them loose and then finding out, you know, they've given us a general purpose IC and integrated circuit, and it's something that maybe doesn't really fit our needs because of maybe the power requirements or the speed or the capacity or the software that was used.
	So we were smart buyers.
	That's what we were in the lab.
	Not to say that we didn't make our own stuff, but that was part of the training, especially as a co-op student, is to process through these different offices and learn how to become a smart buyer.
	So you started as a part-timer and this work became permanent?
	Is that so?
	That's correct for 38 years and nine months.
	Now, there have been many people who've claimed I worked at Area 51.
	I won't say many, but there have been some who famously claimed I worked at Area 51 and I worked here and I did this.
	Is there documentation, is there proof that you were actually there?
	At Wright-Patterson?
	Yes.
	I have so much proof.
	It's incredible.
	Of course, I have all my records.
	You can actually go online, and if you type in my last name and the word ADA, for example, ADA, that's not an acronym.
	It's a representative of the standard programming language for the Department of Defense.
	And I was a person who worked on that project for nearly 10 years for the Department of Defense.
	A lot of the public reports that we generated are out on the web somewhere.
	In fact, there's a guy probably selling a copy of them.
	But it's got my name on it.
	I was the chairman of that group, and it clearly lays out who I worked for, where I worked, and what kind of work we were doing under that project.
	So there's plenty of public documentation out there.
	I don't know whether you signed any commitment to secrecy.
	People here sign a thing called the Official Secrets Act.
	But the sort of work that you got into doing, is there any degree of detail you can go into about that?
	Well, it was mostly unclassified.
	But of course, you know, with a clearance, you're always going to come into classified work.
	And it's pretty easy to differentiate between the two, to keep them separate.
	So if your question is, did I do classified work?
	The answer is yes.
	Do I want to talk about it?
	Yes.
	Can I talk about it?
	No.
	So.
	All right.
	Well, you know, it's interesting, but not absolutely material to our conversation, because what is, is what you say was going on behind the scenes of RICEPAT.
	There are people I've had on my show who've referred to RIGHP as the real Area 51, so important in the whole UFOET thing.
	They believe it is.
	How did you become aware that there might be something else going on there other than the routine work of an important defense facility?
	The first week upon my arrival at Wright Pad, I was assigned a mentor, and we'll call him Al.
	He said, hey, let's go over to the, we're going to cut through this hangar.
	Our building at the time had an office, two-story office building.
	Then it was a huge hangar about 150 feet across.
	And then on the other side was a matching two-story office building, which contained what we called the greasy spoon.
	It was just a small little cafeteria.
	So one day Al said, and this was probably, I think it was the first week I was there, he said, hey, let's go get a candy bar.
	Let's take a break.
	So we'd get into this hangar, and at the time, the hangar was empty.
	Now, this is 1973.
	It had various uses.
	Today, it's a fitness center.
	So it did recycles back in 1947, the Roswell era, probably had airplanes, maintenance, that kind of thing.
	So we cut through this empty hangar, and he says to me, have you heard about our aliens?
	Really?
	And when he said that, what was your reaction to that?
	Well, I'm a co-op student from Detroit.
	I don't know aliens from, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger.
	So I said, do tell.
	And he said, oh, yeah, he talked about the Roswell crash.
	He said, in 1947, the Roswell crash wreckage was brought here for examination.
	And I understand that aliens were brought here too.
	And of course, you know, everyone knows that Wright-Patterson housed 22 years of UFO investigation projects.
	They were official projects.
	They were public projects to the extent that everybody knew they existed.
	So from like 1947 to 1969, there was Project Grudge, Project Sign, and Project Blue Book.
	So the fact that Wright-Patterson was connected to UFOs and extraterrestrials and the investigation thereof was no secret.
	It was a widespread knowledge throughout the base.
	And this conversation kind of amplified what everyone knew in general, that Wright-Patterson was connected to these objects and the recovery and the investigation.
	So right then and there, the very first week, bam, somebody says, hey, we've got aliens.
	And yeah, they're in the tunnels.
	And, you know, that was kind of the general knowledge that everyone on base had.
	When I was a young man, I had infinite curiosity.
	And much of that has persisted into my older years.
	I would not have been able to contain myself if somebody like Al, in a job like he was doing, had told me what he told you.
	I'd have wanted to see for myself.
	Were you able to and did you?
	Well, if you...
	I think the Air Force would be the worst participants in hide and seek if they had a 25-year head start of hiding this stuff and they let a co-op student see it.
	I can't imagine they would be that sloppy.
	So no, I didn't see it.
	I don't know of anybody that I could verify that has seen it.
	And I would say that, you know, very few people who were on base actually got to see these things.
	Doesn't that weaken the whole point of the work that you're doing now, the speaking that you're doing and the book that you've written?
	If you haven't seen it for yourself, how can you know that you weren't being told urban myths and legends or being joked with?
	Well, you know what?
	That's a really good question.
	One doesn't really know, but you have to put together, it's like a painting.
	It's like an impressionist painting.
	You put all these little dots together and the picture starts to come out.
	So I'm not the only researcher who has discovered things that are pointing in that direction.
	Yes, I don't have a spacecraft in my hands, not a complete one.
	And no, I don't have an alien.
	But after talking with people on the base for nearly 40 years and getting winks and smiles and hints, and in my book, for example, I have a photograph of a person I contend is a man in black standing on an intelligence agency campus at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, it indicates to me that something is going on.
	So, no, I don't have the proof.
	Does my lack of proof weaken it?
	I just think there's a lot of corroborative evidence out there that makes it a very solid story.
	38 years is a long time.
	What questions when people told you stuff were you asking?
	Well, I wanted to know where they worked, how they knew it, who they heard it from.
	Some of the things I could easily discount.
	You know, they go, well, we had a plumber come in, and, you know, the plumber had to fix the pipe, and, you know, he was my neighbor, and he's my cousin's neighbor.
	And, you know, when it got to be third or fourth party, I would just immediately discount that stuff and not follow up on it.
	But if it was somebody who worked in a classified facility that I might have suspected had something to do with that kind of research, I would pretty much tune them in.
	Okay.
	I think we need to drill down into some of the things that you were told then.
	What was the first real eye-opening, ear-opening revelation that somebody working there made to you?
	And, you know, how could that person have known that stuff?
	What kind of a job were they doing to be able to tell you things?
	Well, I think one of the key ones was an individual who worked at FTD.
	FTD.
	Now, FTD is Foreign Technology Division, and historically, FTD is the organization that ran Project Blue Book, which was supposedly the investigative arm for the Air Force to go, hey, we're getting all these UFO reports.
	Let's see if there's anything to them.
	So that was housed in FTD.
	And then when strange things would fall from the sky, like a piece of a satellite or, you know, a wingtip of an airplane that somebody recovered in a farm field, generally they would call FTD and said, hey, you know, I'm not sure if this is a piece of a spacecraft, but I saw it fall out of the sky, you know, in a trail of flame.
	Maybe you want to look at it.
	So they collected all these pieces of metal and whatnot.
	So an individual I knew who spent a lot of time in there, I was looking into the Barry Goldwater story.
	Are you familiar with that?
	Tell me for our listeners.
	Well, Barry Goldwater was the head of a major defense spending project for Congress.
	And he had requested to get into FTD through a principal general in the Air Force.
	And he said he wanted to see the blue room which supposedly housed alien artifacts at FTD.
	And the famous story is Barry Goldwater was told, no, you can't go and don't you ever ask me that question again.
	Well, I know somebody who was in the building and saw Barry Goldwater in the FTD building.
	Okay.
	So the story of him being rebuffed may be true, but the fact of the matter is that it proves Barry Goldwater had this keen interest in UFOs and somehow, even though he was told you're not going to see anything, was brought into The building.
	And I don't think he was alone, was he?
	There are stories down the years of other important people being allowed to visit.
	Those I'm really unfamiliar with.
	I know guys like Stanton Friedman had made visits, and of course they gave him a dog and pony show.
	But I think the mere fact that an insider that I trust and know said, hey, we were all told to stay in our offices, but Barry Goldwater was in the building because we were all peeking outside, you know, between the doors and we saw him walking the hallways.
	So, you know, that adds legitimacy to the story, to the Barry Goldwater story.
	So there is a division there, the FTD division, which deals with stuff that falls from the sky.
	Anything that you can't necessarily explain that needs further investigation, it goes there.
	So if you were going to take so-called exotic material anywhere, it wouldn't be a very big stretch to say that is where it's going to go.
	But it's one thing to assume that, and it's another thing to have people telling you about things that they'd actually taken in there.
	So what do you know?
	Well, you know, let's go back to 1947 and just shortly thereafter the Roswell crash.
	Jesse Marcel, Major Jesse Marcel, the intelligence officer from the 509th bomb group, 508th bomb group in Roswell, the only nuclear-armed bombing group in the world at the time.
	He was one of the intelligence officers along with Sheridan Cavett to go out to the spot near Corona and retrieve the materials.
	He kept his mouth shut for 30 years and then he read an article somewhere that said, oh, Roswell crashed.
	So he thought that the veil of secrecy was lifted.
	He was interviewed by Stanton Friedman and here's what he said.
	That is an immutable fact.
	He said, what we found on that ranch outside Roswell was not of this earth, and it was taken to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	That is an immutable fact.
	So regardless of what it was, it could have been a wrapper from a piece of gum, the man who handled it himself said, not of this earth, and went to Wright-Patterson.
	And further, General DuBose, I believe it was Thomas DuBose, he was chief of staff of the 8th Army Air Force in Fort Worth, where the material passed through before it made its way to Washington, D.C. and eventually Wright-Patterson, said General McMullen, who I believe was chief of staff at the time of the Air Force, General McMullen used his personal airplane to transport the material the rest of the way to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	He said Wright Field, which is now Wright-Patterson.
	So two people who were in a position to know made immutable, undeniable claims.
	It was not of this planet, and it went to Wright-Patterson.
	And there you are working there.
	What corroboration of that along the years did you get?
	You know, you told me that people spoke to you.
	They revealed things to you.
	So what indication did you get from people that there was indeed stuff there?
	It was being stored.
	Maybe it was being worked on.
	Maybe it was used for back engineering.
	Well, I'm not sure that I have the smoking gun.
	I have to say it was the narrative that I was told.
	It was my observations.
	It was my personal research that has convinced me that the stories are true.
	And, you know, I put what I knew in the book.
	And I hope that people will read it and, you know, ask questions like you are.
	I don't think anybody has the smoking gun.
	Right.
	But, you know, you worked there for 38 years, and you said that Al was the first person to say, you know, we've got aliens here and that kind of thing.
	And you said that you were told other things over the years.
	I suppose I'm just very keen to get some detail on that.
	You know, it's one thing to have this knowledge that everybody seemed to have, you say, that there was other stuff going on there.
	But people do talk.
	You know, you have to go to the cafeteria sometimes.
	You know, you have to meet people socially.
	That's true.
	And there was always discussion of, hey, I know that it's there.
	We have special rooms that nobody's allowed to go into.
	You know, it could have just been a special project.
	But all of the nonces tended to support the theory that, hey, if there's any place that we would do this kind of work, it would be here because that's our job.
	So again, you could call it scuttlebutt, but I don't think you can deny the statements that have been made by people who were there.
	So from my personal point of view, here are some of the things that I try to point out and I document them in my book in support of Wright-Patterson.
	I have discovered burial sites on the base.
	Burial site.
	And there are burial sites nearby.
	Right.
	And how do you know that they are burial sites?
	Well, first of all, some of them are readily discerned because they have the tombstones there.
	But some, I'll give you an example, Chapel 1, which was a chapel built, I think, in 1942, a wooden frame structure, which was just destroyed a couple of years ago, it was rumored that there was a burial site there and that perhaps it might have housed the aliens.
	Now, if you look geographically at the base, Building 219 in 1947 was the regional hospital.
	If we had aliens dead or alive, they would have passed through that building, Building 219.
	That's where the medical supplies were, the medical Personnel, the medical equipment.
	There was a vault in there that they could have safely stored anything they needed to overnight, the vaults in the basement.
	Conveniently, Chapel 1 is across the street or was across the street from the regional hospital.
	I would say it was about 30 feet away, that close, from front door to front door, maybe 50 feet.
	So if you had a dead alien that you wanted to bury, Chapel 1, the area around it, would have been the place.
	So I went through the history and everybody said, nope, there's no burial sites there.
	But lo and behold, I found, and it's published in the book, I found a newspaper article that said that there was a cemetery next to Chapel 1.
	Well, that's intriguing.
	It just makes me wonder, though, if you had aliens there or alien remains, wouldn't you want to put them on ice for future generations maybe to understand, rather than bury them in the way that humans would be buried?
	Or indeed cremate them.
	If you wanted it all to go away once you've done your research and investigations, then you would use cremation.
	Burial seems to be a strange possibility.
	I'm not saying that it didn't happen, and neither of us knows that it definitely did or didn't.
	But it does seem odd.
	But then these were different times.
	Who knows?
	Well, I posit that we would like to have, we would have treated them like we want our astronauts to be treated if they're somewhere in outer space, if they get stranded on Mars and there's a civilization up there.
	You know, do we want our astronauts pickled in a jar?
	I don't think so.
	So I found an article that talked about a burial site at Chapel 1.
	I'm not saying it's there.
	I couldn't find it.
	They won't let me dig, obviously.
	But I have the article.
	I talked to the chaplains, the Air Force chaplains, who are in Building 219 now.
	They occupy the third floor of Building 219, ironically.
	I've talked to the chaplains and said, you know, if this happened, would you conduct the burial?
	And they said, oh, in a heartbeat.
	And we wouldn't have to be ordered.
	We would do this as just a part of our job, of our mission.
	And we would do that.
	So, of course, I also talk about other areas.
	There's an ancient Adena burial mound that goes back to 2000 BC on the base.
	There was a geophysical survey done, and there are two large metal objects in that hill.
	Really?
	There are, and there is a book that documents those metal objects.
	I posit that perhaps, since that's the oldest civilization at Wright-Patterson, maybe we would have interred the aliens in the mound because we knew that nobody is allowed to dig there by law.
	It's a federal crime to dig in or near that ancient Adena burial mound.
	And there's photographs of that in my book.
	And I might add for your listeners as an update, which has not been released anywhere before, it's my little gift to you this morning.
	The photograph in the book shows these trees, which are over 100 years old, growing around and on top of the mound.
	Earlier this year, all of those trees were cut down on this ancient burial mound.
	And they were healthy trees.
	I now have photographs of the severed stumps of those trees.
	And I counted the rings, and most of the trees are over 100 years old.
	They were in perfect health.
	When I contacted the base authorities to find out why they cut those trees down, I was told that they cut the trees down because the Indians who are responsible for that mound thought it best because they were afraid the trees were going to fall down and the mound would be destroyed as the roots fell open.
	Well, that sounds plausible, doesn't it?
	No.
	Those trees were healthy.
	There was no disease.
	Those trees had been there for 100 years.
	They were as straight as anything.
	And as far as I'm concerned, there was absolutely no reason to cut them down, especially since we've not had any rainy, rainy seasons where you think, okay, the ground would get super saturated and we would lose trees.
	I have no idea why they really cut them down, but I'm not buying that explanation.
	I think you need to give me a sense of the size of this site.
	It's obviously much vaster than I was aware.
	Well, there are actually five or six Adena burial mounds at Wright-Patterson.
	Five of them are located, let's say there's six, five of them are located at the Wright Brothers Memorial Hill.
	And then if you go south from that point, about one, two, three, about four or five hundred yards, I won't do the meter conversion, about four or five hundred yards is the largest of the burial mounds.
	Now that burial mound is about 10, 20, I would say about 35 feet from north to south and maybe 20 feet from east to west.
	And it rises up around maybe 15, 18 feet.
	Do you surmise, do you think, do you speculate in the book that the fact that these sites are there has some kind of significance?
	There is a cultural significance that perhaps ties into if there was exotic material, if there were alien bodies, then they would have been taken to this place for a reason.
	I think that if we were looking for a symbolic place to interien remains, there would be no better place than the ancient Adena burial mound on the base.
	Now, would it be within their conscience to do that?
	Would they think it's okay even though that's a sacred ground to the ancient Adenas?
	I don't know, but it wouldn't be the first time somebody buried something exotic at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and didn't really care that they did it.
	So when this geophysical survey was done, they discovered these pieces of metal in there that were about 18 inches wide.
	Well, it begs the question, did the ancient Adenas have anything that was metal?
	And my research shows that the largest thing they possessed that was metal might have been about a five-inch copper axe head.
	Well, that's not 18 inches.
	That's five inches.
	Right.
	So if we follow this line of thinking, if you were of a mind to properly inter aliens and give them the decency that you would afford to one of your own combatants in a war or somebody who'd served the country, then this is what you would do.
	And you would be able to do that on that site in complete secrecy.
	In complete secrecy, in symbolically, you would be reuniting or putting together perhaps the oldest civilization, the most advanced civilization, with an ancient civilization.
	And to me, that's extremely symbolic.
	Now, I can also tell you that, according to the authorities, there is going to be an upcoming survey, a resurvey with newer, more modern technology.
	I think the first survey was done in the early 90s.
	And they're going to re-survey that mound and other areas.
	I had put in a request to bring in my metal detector, and I can tell you that I was resolutely told no.
	Well, I'm surprised that if it is such a secret place and if there is any possibility that something like that is going on there, that anybody's allowed to do surveys.
	How is that?
	Well, they hire a contractor and they say, you know, we want you to use this because we were only able to determine that maybe there was a couple of bones in there.
	And now the new detection capabilities are going to determine that, oh, well, maybe deeper in this mound, there are other artifacts that we need to know exist there.
	Plus, you can help characterize what these pieces of metal are in there.
	Now, are we going to learn all of the results?
	Maybe not.
	Maybe they're just going to echo, oh, yeah, there was some metal in there, and, you know, we've discovered, we think it's some pipe that the farmer laid in there.
	We may never know the whole story.
	Are you saying, and I've got to get this clear, Ray, just in my own mind, that if you are interested in that site or those sites and you put in an application to do a metallurgical or other survey there, you will be allowed to do it?
	No, no.
	No, what I'm saying is the government had done, they had invited in and paid a contractor to do a survey, a non-intrusive survey using, you know, magnetometers and ground-penetrating radar and whatnot.
	But if they knew what was there, why would they want to do a survey?
	If you put it there, then you would know, wouldn't you?
	Well, maybe one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
	Oh, boy, that is something.
	Look, it wouldn't be the first time in big official military governmental organizations that we've seen that.
	Away from that.
	All right, you don't have your own spacecraft in the backyard.
	You haven't got an alien artifact of any kind.
	You don't have any exotic material of your own.
	But when you're working there for 38 years and you have your suspicions and thoughts and people are talking to you, you must observe things.
	Comings and goings, for example.
	Things that appear in secrecy, things that leave the base in secrecy.
	Talk to me about those things.
	Well, if they leave the base in secrecy, I obviously haven't observed it.
	All right.
	But you can be aware of stuff.
	Over 38 years, you can be aware of things going on.
	You can get a sense of it.
	Of course.
	There are classified things going on all the time.
	And, you know, there are certain ways to determine who's doing what, but not specifically.
	You know, let's say somebody's in the radar branch or somebody's working foreign technology or whatever it is.
	And so you do pick up little clues.
	And I know I'm sounding a little bit evasive here.
	And I am intentionally, but I can tell you that once you're in the base, on the base for a long time, you start to know where to look, what to look for, that type of thing.
	And there's more than one instance when I was told, please don't point your camera in that direction.
	Boy, they allowed you to take a camera onto the base.
	Well, only because I'm the photographer for the Air Force Marathon.
	Right.
	So not everybody gets to take a camera there.
	And by then you were interested in all of this, presumably, and you wanted to take some photographs that might have stood some of this up.
	Is that where you were at?
	Well, yeah, exactly.
	No, the Air Force Marathon weaves its way through the base for the most part.
	And that's 26.2 miles of opportunity.
	So if I wanted to get a photograph of the Adena burial mound, I waited for the runners to come in front of it, and I shot the photographs.
	But it was made clear to you that there were some places that you could not photograph.
	Most definitely.
	And I knew some of the places beforehand.
	So I definitely stuck to that code.
	I didn't want to exceed my authority.
	People talk about back engineering.
	We know that a lot of technological work was going on there, is going on there.
	Were you aware of reports of back engineering there?
	And anything that you've seen or know might substantiate that?
	Oh, absolutely.
	One thing I can talk about in general terms is even as a co-op student, we were enlisted in labs to look at a circuit board, for example, and we're told, you know, this is a circuit board That we want you to draw out, give us a schematic of it, maybe build another copy of it, and we're going to use it in a test apparatus, and we're going to try to determine its capabilities.
	So we knew at that point that we were actually participating in a reverse engineering project.
	We don't know where that particular circuit board came from.
	We weren't told.
	We didn't ask.
	But we could tell pretty quickly that it wasn't one of ours just by looking at the components that were on the board.
	So would you talk to me about that, though?
	That's fascinating.
	That's very, very core, very key, what you just said.
	What did it look like?
	What was different?
	You could look at the composition of the board itself on which the components were and determine that it wouldn't have been something that would have been produced by our military, for example.
	It wasn't quite up to standards.
	The way that the traces were laid out, the physical traces, the connections, may have been pretty amateurish.
	The components themselves, some of them were not commercially manufactured.
	They were, for example, coils and stuff appeared to be handmade, made in somebody's garage, for example.
	So you just could look at the quality of it and the components and go, wow, I don't know who made this, but this doesn't look like any aerospace contractor that I know of would have made this and then try to sell it to the government and put it in a weapons system.
	We know that secrecy is very important to any modern nation.
	There are things which have to be kept secret for our own good.
	There are other things, and this speaks to the whole sort of truth embargo idea, that are kept secret and maybe the public do need to know about them.
	When you were doing research for this and phoning people up and talking to people and asking questions, was your way clear at all times?
	Were you able to do the things that you wanted to do or did you get a sense that somebody was not wanting you to do this?
	Well, I think I was rather conservative in my approach.
	And I certainly wanted to adhere to my secrecy code.
	You know, on the day you retire, and I retired in September of 2011, the security guy came down and said, oh, by the way, you need to re-sign your security oath.
	And it's a little bit different than the one that you get after you've been in-processed early in your career.
	The one going out basically says, hey, you know all that stuff you learned?
	Well, you're going to unlearn it now.
	You're going to forget about it.
	And you're never going to tell anybody.
	So it's just a little bit different.
	It's a gotcha as you go out the door.
	And of course, you happily sign it because, you know, if you're a patriot and American, that's what you do.
	You told me that in some instances you were having to be deliberately evasive.
	Is this why?
	Absolutely.
	I mean, I think everyone who retires and has a security clearance or had a security clearance and, you know, worked at a certain level doesn't want to leave any breadcrumbs.
	You know, so there are things, obviously, that I know that I would never tell, but they give me this strong sense of I'm on the right path.
	And I know it's not satisfying to the listeners, but they're just going to have to live with that.
	So there are people who have tacitly confirmed things to you.
	There are people who have stepped up while I'm signing a book and have told me things.
	And I obviously haven't had to check them out, but they've told me who they were, where they worked, and said, I really want to tell you this.
	I want to get this off my chest.
	All right, well, don't name any names, but give me just a flavor of those sorts of revelations.
	Well, you know, somebody said, I work for this organization, and you need to know that part of our job was investigating UFOs.
	And I went, what?
	And then when I signed the book for them, I tried to trick them into giving me their real name.
	But we know that the Air Force was investigating.
	I was signing this book to do.
	We know that the Air Force was investigating phenomena.
	J. Alan Hynek was involved in some of that.
	So it's no secret that there were investigations.
	But, you know, more than that, I guess, is what we want to know, isn't it?
	So did somebody come up to you ever and say, I can tell you that I have seen an alien artifact, or I've actually seen the remains of an alien?
	You know, I've heard that before, but I had to consider the source, and I just rapidly discounted it.
	There wasn't a good enough source.
	You know, I've probably heard that, let's say two or three times.
	There wasn't a good enough source that had mentioned that that made it worth my time to investigate any further.
	There just wasn't.
	You know, it was nice to hear, and I'm glad they confided in me, but I just never followed up on that.
	Now, there are other things like how we got to transistor, how we got to solid-state electronics.
	Well, we did get there very quickly.
	Right.
	And I talked to people who had historical knowledge.
	One, in fact, was a historian who was collecting that story for the Air Force Archives.
	And when I tried to talk to them about, well, maybe Colonel Corso was right and he seeded examples of solid-state technology to Bell Labs, for example, and that helped them, you know, scoot it along, he basically uninvited me from his office.
	So, you know, I could take that one of two ways.
	He thought I was full of crap and I wasn't going to rewrite history as he was writing it, or he didn't want to discuss it because it was too sensitive, and he just kicked me out of his office.
	He uninvited me.
	You tell me in your publicity material, and I know that we have some phone issues here, and I think to some extent we're talking over each other, and I'm sorry for that.
	I think it's just to do with the telephone between us.
	You tell me in your publicity material that four, quote, world-class UFO researchers have endorsed your book.
	Give me an idea of who they are and what they've said.
	Great.
	Well, the first should be near and dear to you.
	His name is Nick Pope.
	Right.
	We all know Nick Pope.
	And Nick Pope, he is an outstanding writer.
	He's a friend of mine.
	I won't say close personal friend, but anytime we have a chance to get together at a conference or whatever, we look for each other, have a beer.
	Nick Pope said that 50 Shades of Gray is a fun and informative book that is part UFO expose and part travel guide.
	And he goes on from there and he finishes with, the exciting new evidence will doubtless start a few conspiracy theories.
	And anybody else we may know, Stan Friedman?
	Absolutely.
	Well, Yvonne Smith, who is one of the foremost hypnotic regressionists for those who have believed that they've had an alien contact experience.
	She's also an author of the President Secret Service.
	She's also the author of Chosen, Recollections of UFO Abductions.
	She's done thousands of regressions for people who are experiencers.
	So Yvonne has written a, she says, praise for 50 Shades of Grays.
	It's an extraordinary journey.
	And then Paul Davids, he's the producer and writer of the movie Roswell.
	Yeah, well, I've interviewed him.
	Yep.
	Yep, you know, Paul.
	He's the Roswell UFO Hall of Fame inductee.
	And he says it's a great book because it contradicts an official Air Force report.
	He goes, bury that report, see Roswell, and read this engrossing book.
	All right.
	Well, that's three of the people.
	I get the flavor of the kind of endorsements that you've got for the book, and that is good.
	You say that you have solved a mystery connected with Wright Pat, and that is the mystery of Hanger 18.
	What is that, and how have you solved it?
	Well, Hangar 18 is a place where everybody who thinks they know about Wright-Patterson says that that's where the Roswell wreckage was taken.
	And if you look at other books that talk about where the aliens were seen by people and that kind of thing, it's always Hangar 18.
	It's very convenient, catch-all.
	Well, in truth, there is no specific hangar that has the number 18 on it.
	And all of our buildings are numbered.
	All the buildings at Wright-Patterson are numbered.
	There's over 600 buildings.
	They're all numbered.
	There are buildings.
	In fact, the funny thing about Wright-Patterson is it was two separate areas at one time, Wright Field and Patterson Field.
	And so Patterson Field just started numbering their buildings, 1 through Z. And Wright Field numbered their buildings, and they never talked to each other for a while.
	So there is a building 26 in area A and a building 26 in area B. But there is no, and there are buildings 18.
	In fact, there's a whole complex.
	There's 18A, 18B, 18C, 18D.
	And there's two buildings with 18 in the other area, but they're not hangars per se.
	Okay, how is that solving the mystery?
	Well, solving the mystery is what building would have served as hangar 18?
	Where would they have taken the wreckage?
	And so you have to look at things like what airstrip did they come in on?
	What were the buildings closest to the airstrip used for?
	Who occupied those buildings?
	And were they the proper people that would have looked at the material, for instance?
	Are there any other clues that this building may actually have had the number 18 associated with it somewhere in the history of Wright-Patterson?
	Because building numbers change on the base all the time.
	The building that I worked in and that Al told me about aliens was building 22.
	It's now three separate numbers, like 517, 518, and 519.
	So let's be clear about this.
	Are you saying that there was a building 18?
	And because people were talking about building 18, building 18 as such was erased, may have existed in some form, but was then deleted from history.
	Is that so?
	Have I got that right?
	You're pretty close to the truth.
	And so I'm going to leave you with this.
	I talked to the base historian.
	He gave me a breadcrumb.
	I followed that trail of breadcrumbs to an archive wherein I found a book of history about Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
	And it was within this book that I got the clues that told me, aha, this is the building everyone has been talking about.
	This is why they were talking about it.
	And I pieced the two together.
	And so here's the deal, Howard.
	I have put an offer out there, and I expect to live up to it, that the first major conference that gives me a speaking spot is going to get my discovery on Hangar 18.
	Can you give me a flavor of this?
	Well, I have listeners all over the world.
	Can you give me just a flavor of what you might be going to say if you get that invitation?
	I am going to give them physical evidence in the form of a photograph to show, to corroborate my theory.
	So you have a photograph?
	I will also show the narrative that I discovered in the Archives.
	Okay.
	So this photograph, is that a photograph that you obtained while you were working there or in subsequent research?
	I'd rather not say.
	And are you saying that this could be something akin to a smoking gun?
	Well, I think so.
	I definitely think so.
	But let me make this clear.
	We don't need no stinking Hangar 18 to make the Roswell story true.
	The way I think it happened is we had pieces of the craft.
	They were taken to a laboratory, let's say the materials laboratory at Wright-Patterson, handed to a scientist, and they said, we can't tell you where we got these little pieces of metal, but take it into your lab and then tell us all you can tell us when you're ready.
	So the guy doesn't know what he's got.
	He puts it through any devices he has.
	He tests it.
	And he comes out with a report.
	And then they give it to another guy who has a specialty, and they tell him to do the same thing.
	So all of this talk about, well, we need a hangar.
	We don't need a hangar.
	We need a small little laboratory or an office.
	Because if we recall the story, it came in pieces.
	There's no talk about hauling a gigantic craft out of Roswell, nowhere.
	It's little tiny pieces stretched over three-quarter mile strip by 200 yards wide.
	So nobody knew, you're saying, none of the scientists, none of the experts had a clear handle on what they were being given.
	I don't think they did.
	I think the way it was handled is it's the way it's handled today, unless they were less sophisticated back then.
	But you come in with something that's been captured or recovered or fell into your bathtub.
	You take it to the lab and you say, tell me all you can tell me about this.
	And oh, try not to destroy it all because I'll need a piece for later.
	And then they go, yep, don't know what it is, don't care.
	And I'm sworn to secrecy, so you'll never hear about it.
	And a report is generated, given to the people who've done the investigation or who are heading the investigation, and then they move on to the next set of tests.
	Why have you decided to write this book and do this?
	Why have you put yourself out there like this?
	Because there are certain amounts of risk involved if the work that was being done there is so top secret and you're lifting the lid on at least some of it.
	That is bound to put you at a certain amount of risk.
	Why would you want to do that, Ray?
	Well, you know, the Air Force said that spaceships and aliens don't exist.
	So if they don't exist, I can't see how they mind anybody talking about it.
	And I'm sure that since my pension is based upon my good behavior, they know that I'm not going to cross that line and give away any secrets.
	So if I find something in the field, if I find a piece of, you know, if I find a spacecraft in the field, I don't think my secrecy oath extends to that.
	It says whatever you learned on the job, you can't say.
	Well, finding a spacecraft in the middle of a field is not something I learned on the job.
	So I have a large degree of separation there.
	Apart from this photograph that you say you will reveal at the first proper conference that you're invited to speak at, which is a tantalizing invitation for somebody, I would think.
	Are you in possession of knowledge that you haven't put in the book and you can't put in the book?
	Yeah, I have possession of knowledge that I'm going to put in my third book.
	I'm working on a second book now about experiencers, and I've decided to write a trilogy, and I'm going to call it a day.
	I'm going to be retired, retired after that.
	So, you know, there's a few tidbits that I'm going to put in there, including the Hanger 18 solution that I've come up with.
	Should I not get the invite by the time the book is written?
	You told me at the top of this that you encountered one person that you perceive to be a man in black, an MIB.
	We've heard many stories of men in black who visit people who've experienced things and encourage them not to say anything about them and do various other clandestine work.
	Have you had other encounters with MIBs?
	Well, I had two encounters with the same individual on the base at White-Patterson.
	And I had a third encounter, if you will, with a second individual at a restaurant.
	And I was having dinner at a local place, you know, a beer and some hamburger or whatever.
	And there was a gentleman dressed in the garb of the men in black.
	And he was pointing his cell phone towards me.
	And it appeared as if he was taking my photograph.
	But he was doing it in such a way where he had it in selfie mode.
	And I could see by looking at the screen that it was, I could see that it was in selfie mode.
	And how he was triggering it to take photographs, I didn't observe.
	All right.
	Well, and what sort of response, apart from the people who've, you say, endorsed the book, what sort of response so far have you had from people, ordinary people, buying it and reading it?
	What do they think?
	It's been fantastic.
	I've got such a great response.
	If folks want to go up on Amazon and see the comments there, they're mostly five-star reviews.
	The thing that people find most compelling is the vein of humor that I put through the entire book because it's my recording of my quest for the truth.
	I go out and I'm investigating old cases.
	I'm investigating right path.
	And I have a lot of misadventures along the way.
	And so I don't hide those.
	Things go right.
	Things go wrong.
	But they're all relevant to the story.
	So it's my quest.
	And people can relate to that.
	They can relate to Mysteries and seeking answers and having things go wrong, or just things being downright funny at times.
	Right.
	So it's almost like that book, The Men Who Stare at Goats, which was made into a movie about remote viewing and stuff like that.
	The process is as interesting as the actual people involved in the things themselves and the actual topics themselves.
	You said you had misadventures.
	What sorts of things happened?
	Okay.
	When I was doing my investigation in Exeter, New Hampshire, off on Amesbury Road and Brewer at that intersection, if you get there outside of Exeter, you will be on top of the location where Norman Muscarello and two Exeter police officers saw a UFO hovering 100 feet over their head, a 90-foot-wide UFO.
	And the story incident at Exeter was an award-winning book by John Fuller.
	So people can read that.
	It's one of Ufology's best stories.
	So I went on a moonless night to that location so I could do an investigation and feel what it was like when Muscarello was walking down that road on a typical similar moonless night in that area.
	And I had pulled to the side of the road and I discovered that somebody had pulled a 30-foot-long earth mover in the parking spot that I had used that afternoon.
	So I got out, I took a picture, got back in the car, my window was rolled down, and before I could get back out of the car, I heard a female voice out of nowhere coming through.
	It was so dark, I couldn't see my hand in front of my face.
	And this female voice said, hi.
	And I was stunned.
	I said, hi.
	They said, what are you doing here?
	So I explained, you know, I'm a researcher.
	I want to see what it was like when Muscarella was out here.
	I'm going to go into the fields where he and the police officers encountered the UFO.
	I was going to walk around.
	And she said, they're not coming back.
	There's nothing here for you to see.
	And all along, imagine I've not seen a car pull up because I'm pulled off the side of the road.
	My window is closest to the roadside, and I'm talking to a disembodied female voice.
	How can you account for that then?
	What was that?
	Was there a person there somewhere?
	Was it just a voice in thin air?
	What was going on?
	I did not see a vehicle approach.
	I did not hear or see a vehicle leave.
	There was a female voice outside my window.
	It was so dark.
	Howard, if I extended my hand, I could not see my hand.
	So the conversation continued where I tried to re-explain why I was there.
	They repeated, they're not coming back.
	There's nothing here to see.
	You need to leave.
	They are not coming back.
	And I said, well, I knew what they were talking about.
	They were talking about the ship that had basically buzzed around Exeter, New Hampshire for a couple of weeks in September of 1965, in August and September of 65.
	That entire story is documented in the book called Incident at Exeter.
	Okay.
	And what do you think then?
	What's your best guess as to what this voice was and where it was coming from?
	Well, if I wanted to come up with a prosaic explanation, I would say it was somebody who had an awfully quiet car.
	And it never crunched any of the stones that were on the road.
	You know, it's a miracle vehicle.
	And I'm guessing that they were local.
	I was in town for a couple of days prior asking questions.
	So I had interviewed the son of the man who owned the farmhouse in 1965 over which the UFO was first spotted and seen by Norman Muscarello.
	So my presence in the area was well known.
	And somebody was probably monitoring that area, saw me pull up, and sent somebody out there to chase me away, to warn me off.
	So if it was a person, a real person, then they came with amazing stealth.
	And, you know, we can only assume that either there was something faintly sinister going on here, or maybe just the local people were tired of people coming there and asking questions.
	Yeah, I'd like to always explain things saying it's this or that, and it's very, you know, a prosaic explanation.
	Occam's razor, you know, the simplest explanation is probably the most realistic explanation.
	And in this case, I would say that's probably it.
	But when the voice stopped talking, because we kind of ended the conversation, I got, okay, thank you very much.
	The voice said, have a good evening.
	And then it went silent.
	Now, I would have expected to have heard a car move away, you know, or see tail lights or headlights.
	The fact of the matter is, if you get on Google Earth and look up Amesbury Road and Brewer Road, you'll discover that these are tree-lined roads and that anybody moving away in total darkness in a vehicle is at a high risk of crashing their car into one of those trees.
	And they are narrow roads.
	But you're clearly hearing a voice, but you can't see a person.
	That's the bit I don't get.
	Without a doubt.
	And I actually put the whole conversation, the best I could remember it, in the book in a little section there.
	And I discuss why I went to this place and what I was doing there and everything else.
	And it was clearly a woman's voice in total darkness late at night, very, very late at night.
	Were your car windows open?
	My driver's side window was rolled down because it was, I think it was, I'd have to look at the dates.
	It was early September.
	It was a beautiful evening.
	There was a lot of fog developing, so it was warm during the day and moisture was rolling in at night.
	And in fact, I have, again, to refer to the book, there is a photograph of me heading out of Exeter towards that place, and you can clearly see the fog that was coming in underneath a streetlight.
	So, you know, it's been captured in photographs.
	And I also have a photograph of the lane that I was parked on, and you can see it is narrow and it is totally, totally tree-lined.
	Last question, Ray.
	Good luck with the book, by the way.
	But last question is this.
	What do you believe that the work that you have done will add to the whole ETUFO debate and to the progress, if there is going to be any, towards disclosure?
	Well, I think it proves that there are things that have gone on at Wright-Patterson, that there are still things going on at Wright-Patterson, that the Air Force has not dropped this, perhaps publicly, but not privately, as something that they're researching.
	And I hope it inspires other people to go out and take their own walkabout, to do their own quest, to dig, to find answers.
	And maybe in the very end, somebody will come forward to me with the smoking gun and go, hey, you know, my days are over.
	I need this to be made public.
	Here it is.
	Well, I hope you get the invitation to speak at that conference and we can all find out what it is you want to say there and see the photograph as well, Ray.
	You have a website.
	People will want to see it.
	What is that website?
	It's a WIC site.
	It's Ray Shymansky.
	And they can just look up Wix site and Ray Shymansky and you'll find it.
	All right.
	We talked around the whys of this.
	Just finally, though, there will be people who will say, oh, this man's just seeking a little bit of publicity and he's a sort of amateur UFO investigator.
	What would you say to them?
	Well, I would say that nobody makes money writing UFO books, and I'm proof of that, although, you know, the sales have been nice.
	I'm an executive-level retiree, so I have a very nice pension, so I certainly didn't do it for the money.
	I'm a private person.
	I had no public exposure whatsoever.
	But I will say this.
	The tipping point is when I was standing with Travis Walton at the site, and he was telling me the story, recounting it, how it had happened 40 years earlier.
	And something triggered in my brain that said, you know, you've got a lot of good information here that the public needs to see.
	You need to put this out.
	And that was the tipping point.
	There was just something about being with Travis there at that moment that said, you have to write a book.
	And I did it.
	Are you still in touch with Travis?
	I see him every once in a while.
	I saw him in July in Roswell.
	Very busy guy.
	If you can ask him if he'd like to come on my show, I would love to have him either on this podcast or on my radio show because obviously he is a big name in all of this.
	Ray, thanks for talking with me and good luck.
	Thank you, sir.
	It was a pleasure.
	Ray Zamansky, a link to him and his book and his work will be put on my website, theunexplained.tv.
	Sorry for the length of the shout-outs and stuff at the top of the show.
	I had to do that to be fair because I've been putting them off for the last couple of editions just through sheer pressure of stuff that I have to do.
	But I really do love it when you get in touch.
	It makes such a difference to me to know that real people are hearing this.
	And, you know, some people like what I'm doing.
	And some of you make me suggestions that really do make a difference to the show.
	Which is why I'm massively grateful for them.
	Go to the website theunexplained.tv designed by Adam from Creative Hotspot.
	You can send me an email from there or make a donation to the show if you'd like to.
	More good guests in the pipeline coming right up.
	Stay tuned, as they say.
	My name is Howard Hughes.
	This has been The Unexplained.
	And until next we meet here, please stay safe.
	Please stay calm.
	And above all, please stay in touch.
	Thank you very much.
	Take care.

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