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July 2, 2017 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:13:58
Edition 302 - Summer Guest Catchups

Nick Pope on newly-released UFO files, Whitley Strieber and medium June Lundgren at HamptonCourt Palace...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Thanks for bearing with me in the show and for all of your nice emails and the nice response to this show.
Please keep that coming.
You can email me with guests, suggestions, thoughts on the show, anything.
Just go to the website, theunexplained.tv, designed, created, and owned by Adam from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, and you can send me thoughts about the show there.
You can also leave a donation if you would like to to allow this work to continue.
I'm going to do some shout-outs, a lot of them on this edition, then some catch-ups with guests I've had on my radio show recently.
They will be the former Ministry of Defence UFO investigator, the former man who did that officially for the ministry, Nick Pope, will be here, now living in America, of course, and an independent investigator and broadcaster and journalist himself.
So he'll be here talking about the release of 15 more government UFO files in the last batch of files to be made public.
Then there will be no more files.
We'll talk with him about that.
June Lundgren, medium psychic, who's been on this show before, came over to visit London from America.
She sat in on my radio show, watched it go out, and then I took her to Hampton Court Palace, the former home of Henry VIII, and a number of British kings and queens over the years, place where a lot of skullduggery happened down the centuries, and also reputed to be one of the most haunted buildings in the UK.
So what I did with June is the people at Hampton Court don't like you going around making recordings for radio shows.
So we did the public tour, June and I, and then I recorded her thoughts and her experiences, which I witnessed during the walk around the building.
This building is steeped in history and so many good and very bad things have happened there.
I had a feeling there would be a lot to sense if you were June Lundcren, and by the looks of it there was.
And June, I hope you had a good trip back to Oregon and everything is okay now.
We'll also be hearing from Whitley Streeber.
What can I say about Whitley?
Author, broadcaster, man who is interested in all the topics that we're interested in, alien, abductee, contactee, and of course the man behind the movie the day after tomorrow.
But many other credits for Whitley Striber.
So he's back on this show and we'll hear his thoughts in 2017.
So three items on this edition of The Unexplained and a lot of shout-outs.
So better get them done.
Joe, thank you for your email.
Says, I listened to your show while building an enormous model railway in my loft.
I'm not sure what's going to happen when I've caught up with all the episodes, says Joe.
I guess work will have to stop until the next one.
Would love to see a photo of it when you've done it.
I love anything like that.
Peter says, I've got a few days off listening to your podcast.
Richard Hoagland is amazing.
Can't wait to get his book.
Thank you for that, Peter.
Scott in Bellingham, congratulations on the job change.
Scott, thanks for the email.
Michael in Detroit came across the podcast only weeks ago.
Already through a dozen episodes, your sensible and balanced approach to the topics makes this very interesting.
Thank you.
Sue says, really enjoying listening to your radio show and find most of your guests really interesting.
Thank you for that and some suggestions too.
Pete in Liverpool, many thanks for the sad news about our guest and friend, R. Gary Patterson, the rock and roll conspiracy theory man, the A to Z of strange happenings in rock and roll.
I'm so sorry to hear that news.
If you want to hear Gary on this show, just go back through the archive and you'll hear him there.
He will be missed.
Jake says you should have Doctor or rather father Jay Davila Ashcraft on the show.
He's an exorcist, many other things as well, and he would be interesting.
Okay, I've made contact with him.
Looks like he is going to be on the show.
Thank you for that, Jake.
Kind words from Paul in Birmingham.
Thank you.
Dear Howard, my name is Joseph.
I'm 11 years of age.
I live in northern New South Wales near Brisbane, Australia, and me and my brothers listen to the show before and after school.
Please get David Paul Libers on again.
We'll do that.
Thank you very much, Joseph, and I'm glad that you're enjoying the show and your brothers.
Ian says, can you ask the Mars One people, I think you mean, if they can discuss if they have a protocol in place to report any instances where they see or notice or observe signs of intelligence when they're in space?
Good call.
I've got Baz Lansdorp on the radio show, so if you're hearing this before the 9th of July and would like to put a question to Baz Lansdorp, please email me it now and I will ask him your question.
If we can fit that in, Christian in Shepparton, Australia wants to hear South African Michael Tellinger, who's been on this show twice and needs to be back here.
You're right.
Dave in Blen in New Zealand says, I just stopped work.
I drive a machine in the vineyards of Marlborough, New Zealand, to write you a quick email on my break to say that I recently discovered your great podcast on my phone app and I really appreciate your work.
Nice to hear from you in New Zealand.
I wonder if I'll ever in this lifetime get down to New Zealand.
I'd like to.
Joe in Illinois says, thoroughly enjoy your show.
I'm a subscriber to the podcast and listen to the podcast while at work or milling about my home doing chores.
And says some other nice things.
Thanks, Joe.
Craig Stewart?
Yes, visit my website, theunexplained.tv, Craig.
Promise you, it is legit.
Dear Howard, congratulations on your 300th show.
I'm sure you'll reach the 600th.
Hope so.
This comes from Ghoulian.
Hope I've got that right this time in Belgium.
Nice to hear from you, Ghoulian.
Ryan says, thank you so much for your shows.
I'm always excited when I see one pop into the podcast feed.
I prefer your show to Coast to Coast AM.
Thank you for that, Ryan.
Caroline in Perthshire, Scotland says, I've just listened to edition 298 on synchronicity.
I was having a chuckle to myself about how much Dr. Gary Schwartz seemed to be clutching at straws to find his number 11s in everything, especially by adding other numbers to get there.
Then I looked at the clock and the time was 11.56.
That's 11.11.
Look forward to many more episodes.
Thank you.
Karen in Barry, Ontario, nice to hear from you.
Rory O'Callaghan from Sleepy Hollow, Illinois, thank you very much for your email.
Mark says, I live in the West Midlands in the UK.
I love to escape listening to the podcast when everybody else is watching rubbish reality TV, suggesting the giant of Kandahar story.
Okay, we'll look into that.
Maria, thank you for the email about tinnitus and the connection with the Epstein-Barr virus, which I have had, and that's interesting to see.
Thank you.
Marty in New Jersey, thank you.
Sharon in Richmond Hill, Ontario.
Nice to hear from you.
Emily in Maryland, USA.
Thank you.
Astrid in Cape Town, South Africa.
Wonderful city.
Wonderful area around the Winelands and all the way out to Arniston and places like that.
Don't get me started.
Love it.
Finally, Eli, North Central Pennsylvania, USA, construction contractor.
I listen while I create human habitation systems.
I wanted to relate my synchronistic event which occurred while in my truck listening to your podcast.
You and the guest were talking about black VW Beetle cars.
And at that moment, I realized I was passing a black VW Beetle, the only other vehicle on the highway.
I love and appreciate your show, says Eli.
Thank you so much.
A lot of shout-outs.
I'm sorry if you don't like hearing shout-outs.
You could skip this part of the show, but I need to do these.
They're very much part of the Unexplained family.
If you want to get in touch, you know how to do it.
Go to the website theunexplained.tv.
First guest on this edition, then let's get to Nick Pope about the recent release of 15 of the final 18 official British UFO files.
Very, very interesting week.
And a lot of you have asked me to get into this.
And of course, having read it in quite a few of the papers over the last few days, I am bound to do this story.
One example this week, and I quote, an official government UFO dossier that's referred to as Britain's X-Files has finally been released.
I think we knew this was coming down the track, but what does it mean?
The National Archive has opened up a cache of 15 files from the MOD that divulge details of mysterious incidents in British skies.
They include material relating to the famous Rendlesham Forest incident that we have discussed here, of course, from Suffolk in 1980, just before the Christmas of that year.
Always dubbed to be the Roswell of the UK.
Well, the man who knows all about this stuff, partly because he worked on some of these files, is independent investigator and formerly the Ministry of Defence's UFO report collateral Nick Pope, who now lives in America.
He's online to us now.
Nick, thank you for coming on.
Sure thing.
It's good to be on the show again.
So, Nick, when you read that these files were being released, presumably you knew anyway in advance, what did you think?
What does it mean to us?
Well, yes, you're right.
I knew these files were coming.
And of course, I couldn't say anything about it before they were actually out there because it's not for me to preempt my former employees, the British government, on this.
But the moment they were out, obviously I could talk about this in the media and give my take on things.
I think it's good news and bad news.
The good news, self-evidently, is that now 15 of the 18 remaining Ministry of Defense UFO files are out there.
So this nine-year program to declassify and release the entire archive is nearly finished.
That's the good news.
The bad news, and this has been the focus of a lot of the media stories, is that unlike the previous batches of these UFO files, these have not been digitized.
So people can't go to the website and download them.
You have to either order them up and pay for them and wait two or three weeks for them to be sent to you, or you have to physically go to the National Archives at Kew and go to their on-site reading room and just go through the documents yourself.
So it's a far cry from the previous batches where you could just get them online.
Now, all of that is fine if you live in London because a trip to Kew is quite a nice day out.
But if you live in Aberdeen and you want to know this material, that is a real pain in the neck.
Why was this then?
Is this to do with government cost cutting?
Why would they not release these digitally like everything else is released these days?
Well, I think it's a number of reasons.
And I should say again, this was not my advice.
I mean, my clear preference was to have them digitized and available online and indeed free online, at least for the first month or so.
Again, that's what happened with all the previous batches.
Thereafter, they charge, I think, about £3.50 per file.
Fair enough.
But the previous batches, free for the first month.
Again, that didn't happen.
I think it's a mistake.
The real reason, so far as I am aware, is that essentially the landscape has changed.
This used to be a good news story about open government and freedom of information.
But as you know, and I think we've discussed this before on the show previously, there has been a lot of delay with these last 18 files.
And it almost turned into a comedy of errors.
The Ministry of Defence sent the files to the National Archives.
The National Archives then sent them back.
Unprecedented move, because they had redacted some information that shouldn't have been redacted.
There were redactions for which no authority had been given, I understand.
So they were ping-ponging between the National Archives and the Ministry of Defence.
And therefore, particularly in view of the mainstream media coverage of this, this good news story about open government had turned into a bad news story about delay and error.
And frankly, the whole thing had turned into an embarrassment.
So they did not want to call attention to this.
Almost the accusation was last week that this had been snuck out, really with no proactive announcement at all.
And it was only when I intervened and gave a number of interviews on this that really people were aware this was out at all.
Well, I wasn't aware that it was coming, I have to say.
But as you know, the nation has had a number of other preoccupations in the last few weeks with various things happening that have preoccupied all of us and taken up the headlines.
However, you're right, it does sound a little botched.
The question that first of all springs to my mind is why would they want to redact anything from these files?
What is there that we shouldn't be seeing?
Well, again, as you know, there's a whole bunch of exemptions to the UK's Freedom of Information Act, and they cover not just the innocuous things like personal information relating to UFO witnesses, but some other categories, including defence, national security, matters pertaining to the intelligence agencies.
And to be fair, most of the redactions are just one-of-the-mill things like names, addresses, email addresses, etc.
of UFO witnesses, which is fair enough.
If you report a UFO sighting to the Ministry of Defence, you do so in the expectation that the government will keep your details private.
You don't want them splurged out there for the media and end up with people calling on your doorstep to say I do.
I understand that.
So can we assume that if there was anything in there along the lines of there I was standing on a Sunday night on a fen, staring into the eyes of a 5'4 alien with six fingers on each hand and with very large green eyes, that would have been left in?
That's in there, yes, absolutely.
Okay.
So what is in there that might be of interest?
If I paid my 50 odd pounds and had these things sent out to me, what would I be discovering?
A mixed bag.
I think there are three categories of information in these 15 files that were released this last week.
First category is the sighting reports themselves.
95% explained, 5% not so much.
And the interesting material there, of course, is all the usual things that excited me when I was doing this for the government.
Reports from police officers, military personnel, pilots, sightings where these things attract on radar.
Second category of information is public correspondence, which is fairly routine.
You know, dear MOD, please tell me what you think about aliens.
Third category is the much more interesting stuff.
It's the policy files, discussing how the Ministry of Defence handles this subject, how it plays it when the question is raised in Parliament.
How dare I use this word?
It spins the subject with the media and tries to downplay it with the media.
And one of your jobs, as you were telling me the last time we spoke a few weeks ago when you were at Contact in the Desert, was to put together statements for ministers to deliver to Parliament that towed the official MOD line.
Very much so.
Our default position was to try and make this go away, try and ensure that MPs and peers didn't ask about this.
But if they did, almost try and wrap them across the knuckles and make them sound silly for even asking by throwing in terminology like flying saucers and little green men.
Okay, so if I paid my 50-odd quid and I was a UFO investigator, hoping to find some nugget that might re-enlight my faith in the belief that there are aliens out there and funny craft, would I find anything in there?
You said 5%.
Now, that is the kind of equation that you and I have talked about before.
95% of it is explainable.
5% of it we really don't know.
So is it worth the expenditure?
Yes and no.
Typical civil servant answer.
Sorry about that.
But no, because you won't find a smoking gun, no spaceship hidden away in a hangar somewhere.
But yes, because in amongst those 5%, there are some genuinely intriguing and absolutely unexplainable, even to those of us in government, sightings.
And in the policy documents, there are extremely interesting papers showing, as I say, how the government managed this subject.
And you know, you raised an interesting point, and I don't want to turn this into an accusation.
But you'll recall immediately after 9-11, this infamous phrase, a good day to bury bad news.
There is, shall we say, circling around, bubbling in the conspiracy theory community, a certain suspicion that the UK government picked a time when a lot was going on in the news and slipped these files out, hoping that people would be thinking about other things and wouldn't even notice.
Yeah, but of course, those plan, I've seen these postings online, and people are suggesting that.
But the government are not psychics.
They may be many other things.
Psychics, they are not.
They would have had the date of release probably planned for quite a while, wouldn't they?
Quite a while, yes, but you can bring a date forward or push it back.
So, you know, there is always a flexibility with this.
You said there were some interesting nuggets in there.
Can you give me a taste of some of those?
Well, I think, again, the files from the Defence Intelligence staff are always interesting.
And this whole question of, shall we say, expectation management with Parliament, the media, the public, this whole almost Orwellian approach that you see in these files, that on the one hand, we were pushing this line to Parliament, media, and public, saying no defense significance, little green men, invoke the giggle factor with all of this.
And yet, on the other hand, we were conducting highly classified intelligence assessments, such as Project Condine, which I know we've discussed before, but a proper intelligence assessment of the UFO phenomenon, which talked about some fairly controversial areas, such as novel military technologies and applications that might derive from a better understanding of what we're dealing with, including weaponization.
What about famous celebrated cases like the case of Ray Bowyer in 1997?
I don't know whether these files cover that date, but 1997, Ray Bowyer flying his plane around the Channel Islands and sees something that is about a mile wide out there.
It is tracked on radar.
Another pilot sees it.
Has that made it to the files?
That file was actually released some years ago.
And again, going back to your point about is it worth spending your 50 quid, I should also warn that there's quite a lot of duplication in these 15 files that have just come out.
And a few people in the media have said to me, this looks rather familiar.
And I said to them, yes, it should.
It's come out in at least one of the previous batches.
The problem is that the MOD's UFO files encompasses at least three different directorates.
The Secretariat, where I worked, which was the policymaking department that had the lead on this subject and handled the investigations, Defense Intelligence Staff, which handled scientific and technical intelligence aspects of the phenomenon, and the radar experts, Directorate of Air Defense.
And of course, when you've got three divisions in the MOD all working on the same thing, a lot of the papers are going to turn out to be the same across all three directorates.
So you've got to be aware of that.
If you get these documents, you have to know what you're looking for buried within.
Roughly, how many pages do you think there are?
Oh, thousands.
And in total now, and remember, of course, this program started way back in May of 2008.
I think that to date, we're getting pretty close to 60,000 pages of documents now, some of which were at levels up to secret UKIs only.
Now you're no longer at the MOD.
These papers have been released.
Will there be somebody currently at the MOD, will there be somebody currently around the government who will have taken a very deep look at these papers before they were released and will know precisely where the good bits are in all of these thousands of pages?
Presumably, yes.
Yes and no.
Somebody in the Ministry of Defence will have gone through all those files and redacted them prior to release to make sure that no classified information is actually put out there.
So, I mean, in one sense, a moment ago I said that, of course, some of these files were classified secret UKIs only.
Self-evidently, though, anything that you're reading at the National Archives has been redacted, declassified.
So you're really looking at unclassified information.
Anything that was classified originally has now either been declassified, or if it's still classified, is one of the parts of the files that's still blacked out.
So in practice, if I'm a serious investigator, I might as well invite one of my friends from the investigating community and have a nice Pizza Express meal and forget spending my 50 quid or indeed other pizza restaurant meal and spend my 50-odd quid more wisely because I'm not going to get much out of these.
Not quite.
You will, because invariably things slip through the net.
And the other point is that the Ministry of Defense, of course, terminated its UFO project back in 2009.
So the corporate memory has really been largely lost on this subject.
So as I mentioned ago, yes, somebody at the MOD will have redacted these files, but they will not have had that kind of same subject matter expertise that people like myself and my colleagues would have had once, you know, when the UFO project was up and running.
Are you surprised that they might have let something good slip through?
Are you teasing and tantalizing us here that because they haven't got any expertise, they all don't.
I'm not blowing my own trumpet.
I mean, not just myself.
My colleagues too.
But yes, invariably, once you terminate a particular work stream, then yes, the expertise is lost.
The people are posted, they retire, and invariably, people years later, trying to go through those files and say, well, what are the classified and sensitive bits?
Yes, they make mistakes.
And I can't, with apologies, I can't direct people to this, but I've seen things in the files that I've thought, my goodness, if I'd have been sitting there with the blank marker pen, I think I would have blanked that out.
When you say that, why can't you?
Well, I'm still bound by the Official Secrets Act, and I don't...
Well, I think it's been put out perhaps with a kind of lack of knowledge.
And bear in mind, there are always people trawling through these files from other countries and other non-state players, shall we say.
You don't, as a general rule, want to be drawing people's attention to classified material which has slipped through the net.
So you're telling me that somebody's messed up on this a bit?
Well, here and there.
Here and there.
And okay, I'll give you one example.
I mean, we've talked before about Project Condine's final report.
It's out there.
It's about 465 pages long.
I am genuinely surprised that some of the material that slipped through the net there wasn't blacked out.
I think that...
Well, you know, I'm not going into specifics, but taken as a whole, I think that crosses the line.
And I think I would have been a little bit more heavy-handed with the black marker pen.
This means, obviously, I'm going to be without pizza for a little while because I think I'm going to have to buy these papers and read them now.
Because you're not going to tell me what all this stuff is, are you?
Yeah, that one you don't even have to buy.
That one's out there free already.
Okay, and what about Rendlesham Forest?
Because I've had people on here for the last decade telling me stuff about Rendlesham Forest.
It is mostly the same stuff.
Every so often something new slips out, like the testimony of radar operators and that kind of thing.
Is there anything new in these papers that will tell us anything we hadn't heard before about Rendlesham Forest?
Sadly not.
No, there are some Rendlesham papers, but from what I've seen, they are all duplicates of material that's already out there.
And now, of course, there's an interesting tie-in with Project Condine because one of the phrases that's excited such a lot of media attention, not with this last batch of files, but there is a phrase in Project Condine's Final report where it says words to the effect,
and I haven't got it in front of me, but the well-reported Rendlesham Forest incident is an occasion where it might be postulated that witnesses were exposed to non-ionizing UAP radiation for longer periods of time than is normally the case.
UAP.
Which is the MOD's internal phrase for UFO.
UAP is unidentified aerial phenomena.
We changed the terminology for a number of presentational reasons.
Right.
Okay, so there may still be more to Rendlesham Forest than meets the eye, even though people have been trying to debunk it for decades now in 37 years.
Indeed.
And yes, and don't forget, there are still, out of all these files that have been released, 15 last week, 209 prior to that, there are still three to come.
And why are they sitting on three?
Well, the formal transfer of these files has to be officially signed off at a meeting of the National Archives Advisory Council.
And the Advisory Council does not sit until July.
So they have to have their July meeting.
Now, from what I understand, it is just going to be a formality that the transfer will be signed off.
And it may be that these final three files will be out as soon as next month after this meeting.
I just don't get it, though, Nick.
I mean, I know you worked in the portals of government, so you understand these things.
But why would you release 15 and hold back three?
That sounds a bit, just to me, I'm just a layman just looking from the outside in.
Why would you keep three?
Why wouldn't you just say, okay, well, let's put out the 18 and then have done with it?
It's bureaucracy, not conspiracy.
It really is.
I think they wanted, they knew that there was media pressure to get these files out.
They had 15 of them ready to go and they said, "Well, look, we might as well get these out "so that we can at least, And again, as I mentioned before, the whole focus of the most recent media stories on this has been delay.
So, yeah, as soon as they can get them out, they will.
So that's why the 15 were gotten out last week.
And yes, they could have sat on them, but that would have probably resulted in the missing of a target.
Now, of course, these files look back at things that happened in history.
This is 2017, and things are still happening, I'm sure, from what people tell me.
What will happen about the release of future reports?
Will the protocol change?
Well, this is the tragedy.
There won't really be any recent reports.
And by the way, I should say that the 15 files that have just been released cover documents dating from as early as 1971 through to, I think, about 2007.
But the tragedy was that after the MOD axed its UFO project, they said, we will not keep any public reports that were sent about this.
They will either be returned or more likely, they'll just go straight through the shredder.
The MOD took a deliberate decision.
They did not want to hold any information on this subject because under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act, it would then be a never-ending saga.
Even if they didn't investigate, they would still hold information.
So they said, we're not going to keep anything.
All of this off their hands.
So what we're saying, I think, is that if an alien lands tonight in the car park of Sainsbury's in Lowestoft, gets out of his spaceship, walks into Sainsbury's in Lowestoft, buys six cans of Carlsberg, gets back in the craft and disappears, no one is going to log that.
One of three things will happen.
Either it will be dealt with by some sort of UFO society, British UFO Research Association or whoever, they'll get the report.
Or I suppose the police might get involved, the media.
Government won't, or rather the MOD won't, or if they do, and this is the hope that I hold out to people, it will be done on an ad hoc basis outside of any formally constituted UFO project.
And make no mistake about it, the government will bend over backwards not to create any paper trail on this so that it's taken as far as possible outside of the scope of freedom of information.
I've no idea what to make of that, but it doesn't make me sound very optimistic for the cause of investigating UFOs and for the cause of ufology, Nick Pope.
Lovely to talk with you, Nick, as ever.
I know it's been 117 degrees in your Bailiwick, so please try and stay as cool as you can.
We've had our own heat problems here, but Nick, thank you.
We'll talk again.
Thank you very much.
Nick Pope, grateful to him for making time for us here at The Unexplained.
Let's get now to the very, very famous and very much respected Whitley Streeber and his recent appearance on my show.
So Whitley, do you believe that what we loosely call aliens here, because we don't have another word for it, may have taken an interest in you from your earliest years and have been interested in your physiology, interested in your development, just generally interested in you from your earliest years, and then they reconnected with you in later life to see how you were getting on.
Is that what you think was happening?
Well, I think that's something of it, but I think the reason that it happened is I think I know what the reason was.
When I was a little boy, somewhere between five and seven, I think probably closer to seven.
I think it was about the summer of my seventh year is what I've kind of narrowed it down to.
I was put in a program at a local Air Force base that was supposedly for very bright children, which I was.
And this program, I don't remember much about it, except that it was terrifying.
It was dark, and I remember loud, terribly loud noises.
But then in October of that year, my immune system failed, and I had to be taken out of school.
I ended up in a military hospital, even though I was not a military family, under treatment for gamma globulin deficiency.
I have no idea what that is.
That's something that's a risk.
It's a component of the immune system.
And the only thing that can explain what happened was extraordinary stress, literally so much stress that the child was nearly killed.
And the result was that I was obviously taken out of this program and isolated and kept home from school from October until the beginning of the new year.
Now, I never had any corroboration for that until one of my dearest friends who lived quite nearby in the same neighborhood said to me after reading about this in one of my books, I'd never brought it up with him because I hadn't thought to.
He said, you know, Whitley, I remember those people.
They came to our house too, and they tried to get me into that program.
I was in the living room when they talked to my parents about it.
I heard the whole thing.
And as soon as they described it as using a behavioral modification technique called a Skinner box, he said, I remember they mentioned the word Skinner box, and my father stood up and said, we're not interested, and they left.
And that is one of the things I remember is being put in a dark box, and this horrible noise is being played.
So it happened.
And you were picked because of your intellect.
Well, yeah, we were all given IQ tests in those days, and I think I'm not the only one.
I think that many children across the United States were involved in this.
Maybe in other countries too, maybe in the UK, I don't know.
So you were seen as special from a very early age, but you erased memories of the research program that you were involved in until they were in the world.
No, it was traumatic and confusing.
And you don't remember things like that well when you were a little child.
I still, my memories of it are very confused.
I can't remember much of anything about it except that it was absolutely horrific.
So the catalyst for you recalling and recounting all of this was the experience that you had in later life.
And that indeed is what caused you to write the book Communion.
That's right.
But what happened then, and the reason I ended up with the visitors, we need to finish that part, I think, is that it literally shattered my expectations about what the world is.
And I began to see something that is here that we filter out normally.
We all, I don't think that it's a question of being chosen.
It's a question of the fact that I noticed something that is all around us all the time, that's part of our world and part of our lives.
That's why in communion, I said in the frontest piece of the book, something that everybody always forgets, that the human mind winked back from the dark when I looked into it.
I think this is a very human thing.
I'm not saying that aliens don't exist, but I am saying that this divide between alien versus human isn't real.
It's not sensible.
We are part of them and they part of us.
Whether one or more planets are involved, I don't know.
Now, we have to say the Communion was a massively successful book.
Two million copies I read were sold.
So they say, I didn't see that many.
New York Times bestseller.
So a lot of people were very keen to understand what happened to you.
They were keen to understand what happened to themselves.
And that's what sold the book because they saw the face on the cover of the book and they realized, my God, it wasn't a dream.
I have this in my life, too.
We got hundreds of thousands of letters, many of them, very detailed letters about their experiences.
My wife, fortunately, was a highly organized, brilliant woman, and she took this in hand.
She organized all the letters.
She hired a secretary to help her, and they collected thousands of the most fully descriptive letters into files, which are now being given to a university, a very prominent American university called Rice University in Houston, Texas, to be archived.
And they're considered, as one of the people involved at Rice said, no matter whether, if this is a description of alien contact, it is one of the most extraordinary testaments in the world.
And I've talked with you about this before.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
I've talked with you about this before.
But the one, and I was thinking about this on the way here.
You got all of those accounts from people, and they all identified with you.
And I wondered why they were willing to open up in that way to you.
And I think I've come up with it because you represent them.
You know, those things that happened to you could easily happen to any of us.
And that's why they felt an empathy with you, I think.
Well, people don't feel threatened by me, and they don't feel like I'm somehow above their station, like a famous scientist or something, because I'm not.
I mean, for goodness sakes, I came into this as a novelist, a horror novelist at that.
And, you know, you can't, in my case, you can just take your choice.
His imagination's running away with him.
He's a liar trying to make money, or he's telling the truth.
And these people who saw that face, opened that book and read it, knew immediately this has happened to me too.
And they would definitely have a tendency to sit down and usually, for the first time in their lives, spill it all out and send it to me.
Of course, there is a problem, isn't there?
When you create works of fiction, great works of fiction that many people read, you get so deeply involved in it because that is the nature of the business.
That with some people who've created works of fiction, and I'm not saying this is you, and I don't believe this is you, but for some people who do that, they get so involved in it that the line between what is real and what is not becomes very blurry.
That's the difficulty, isn't it?
And I think that's the level on which you've been criticized over the years by some.
Oh, I've been criticized in many, many different ways for many different people.
Government people who are involved in this cover-up that Nick Pope was talking about.
They will go out and say things that aren't true about me in order to deflect public interest.
Egotists who resent the fact that it happened to me and not them.
All kinds of people.
All kinds.
People who feel threatened and frightened by it.
People whose religious beliefs it threatens.
The list is long, and the amount of that has been endless.
But you know, I've written a lot of fiction in my life, before and after I wrote Communion.
I never got confused about that.
I always knew exactly what I was doing, whether it was fiction or not, and what parts of it were and were not fiction when it was a mix, like in the novel about the Roswell incident, majestic.
But Communion, as far as I can tell, is a true story.
It's certainly, I made a great effort to tell it exactly as it happened and as I perceived it.
That experience that you had in the 1980s, bearing in mind that you'd had other experiences of a similar kind which you had forgotten about until they were remembered for you or you remembered them with assistance, let's put it that way.
How did it all change you?
Fundamentally, in the core of my being, I could not have been changed more completely because it became my life.
I mean, the last time I had any kind of experience with the visitors was a few days ago.
I mean, I don't talk about it in detail anymore, and I'm not going to.
But suffice to say, they are real, and they are very much in my life and the lives of a lot of people.
Now, Wickley, as you said at the top of this conversation, strangeness has been no stranger to you all your life.
It kind of has followed you around in many ways.
Including recently, I went to your unknown country website.
I thought I'll check out what's new there.
And you said that during May, you yourself had an experience of missing time.
Yes.
What was that?
It was May the 7th.
I was flying back from a wedding in Seattle, Washington, and landed in Los Angeles.
I was on an airline.
I'd flown many times, Virgin America.
I got off the plane.
I was the first person to leave the aircraft.
And I walked down the jetway.
I could hear the other passengers behind me walking.
Stopped in the men's room for a moment.
Walked on into the baggage claim area, which was dark and quiet.
I thought, well, naturally, I'm the first person off the plane.
And I was only in the men's room for two minutes, maybe at most, three minutes.
I waited.
Nobody else showed up.
I waited.
Nobody showed up.
I went to the Annunciator to look at, see if I was at the right baggage claim, although Virgin America only has one baggage claim area in the airport.
So I was, and the flight was listed and everything.
I waited.
Finally, I went to the office to find out what had happened because I thought maybe they made an announcement since I was the first person off the plane after I got off saying the baggage would be somewhere else.
But as I walked toward the office, I saw a familiar bag.
My bag is bright blue, and my wife got sick of black bags being picked up by the wrong people, et cetera, and so forth.
And we had an unusual bright blue bag.
And it was sitting there.
I could see it as I walked up.
So I walked up to the office.
I still thought I was the first person in the baggage claim area.
And I thought, my first thought was, my goodness, the bag got here before the plane.
But how could that be?
And I said to the man as he stepped out of the baggage claim area, out of his office, I said, how come this is here?
And he said, well, we pulled it off the carousel.
It was the last bag, and nobody picked it up.
But in your world, you'd done what many of us do when we get off a long flight.
We go to the men's room and then we go and pick up our bags.
Our bags, yes.
And no one had ever gone past me.
I'd never seen anyone pass me.
What do you think happened then, Whitley?
Well, what I did find, looking at my watch, I left the airplane at 12.36 or something like that, I think.
And I had been just, I had simply disappeared for something like 40 minutes.
I went to a woman in Sacramento, California, Lori McDonald, who is a member of an organization that helps close encounter witnesses called the Free Organization.
Their website, by the way, is experiencer.org, and they offer the services of qualified hypnotherapists and psychologists and so forth, and organize groups of people and that sort of thing.
They emerged out of the work of Dr. John Mack, who sadly passed away some years.
Yes.
And in any case, I went to see her, and she put Me under hypnosis, and I really didn't get much out of it, except I did remember thinking that I had been, I was asked by a policeman to come with him.
And I recalled being rather upset by this because, you know, in the age of terrorism, who knows what in the world a policeman may want with you in an airport.
Although I had done nothing, and you know, I'm an inoffensive-looking middle, late, middle-aged, early elderly man, or just an old guy.
I mean, that's what I, frankly.
So, you know, hardly the kind of person they would pick out.
You're definitely not Carlos the Jackal, yes, definitely.
No.
I remember a vague memory of someone asking me what I was doing and realizing that it didn't have anything to do with the airport and being quite upset and angry.
And afterwards, that day, I became extremely depressed and unhappy, as if something unpleasant had happened to me and I couldn't remember what it was.
And that's about it.
That's about all I remember.
But it just that it happened.
It definitely happened.
There's no question about that.
And, you know, I've obviously, and one of my tweeters has prompted me to ask this, on the flight, people are often offered less so these days, but alcoholic beverages you hadn't been imbibing?
No, I don't drink during the day.
I'm a very person of extremely regular habits.
I have a glass of wine in the evening, and after dinner, I have a cognac, a small cognac, and that's it.
I never drink anything else at all.
Well, I think you're allowed.
But the point, one of the points is that sometimes when we're driving, for example, or doing something repetitive, we can actually zone out.
And flying is the perfect example.
You're not zone out walking through an airport, Howard.
Come on.
Well, no, I mean, normally, that is the point.
I mean, normally, I'd never done anything like that in my life.
I understand, but the whole process of checking in, getting on the plane, having people look after you.
But you're right.
You get off the plane, you get off the plane, and that's when you wake up.
You know, wherever you've been.
You had to have stood somewhere in a crowded airport for 40 minutes without moving.
How could that be?
So this is a disturbing experience, isn't it?
When there is time for the camera, we're trying to do is to get the tapes, the video from the airport, because there's bound to be video.
There's video of every airport.
And hopefully we'll be...
And hopefully we'll be able to get some video of me moving through the airport because it must exist.
Well, I would imagine that as a U.S. citizen, it is your right, surely, for them to make that available.
That is your right.
That's not true.
That unfortunately is not true.
It may be true there.
It's not true here.
Hopefully, we can get it without having a freedom of information request, which would make it impossible because the tapes will be destroyed after 30 days.
Excuse me, 60 days, I think it is, she said.
And does the fact that you're Whitley Streeber, do you think that might help to oil the wheels a little?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I always hope that people don't remember me.
In the public, I go as Louis Streeber.
Right.
So they wouldn't have known unless they'd seen book jackets or TV appearances.
Oh, yeah.
I don't.
That part of my life is something.
I do this out of a sense of responsibility.
It's not something I like to do.
I've had a number because.
Also out of interest, because frankly, it's terribly interesting, and I can't quite ever figure out what's going on.
And sometimes questions I'm asked or things that come up from people send me information and so forth, you know, and I get a little closer from time to time with it.
And so I do keep at it.
I've had a variety of questions come in while you've been on air.
And that experience kind of ties into something that Roberto tweeted to us.
He wondered whether you'd ever been visited by men in black.
In other words, the powers that be, whether they are overt or covert, have they taken an interest in you?
Oh, yeah, I've been involved with some efforts to figure out what's going on.
Yes, and they haven't been very successful, and I still am.
I'd love to help the government people figure it out, frankly.
And I know perfectly well why they keep it covered up.
I mean, it's very frustrating.
But at the same time, if, say, that recent release of documents by the UK, by the Ministry of Defense, had been done in a reasonable way, not just dumped in Somerset or wherever it is, I don't know where it is.
Well, it's the archives in Kew, Southwest London.
In Kew, yeah, where you have to look through thousands and thousands of pages page by page.
That's designed to make it hard for the public to do this.
And also, it's an open invitation to hoaxers to play games with putting things up on the internet that they've actually fabricated that they say are from that document collection.
Well, it does sound very strange that they didn't, in this era where everything is online and everyone's got a smartphone, they decide to put papers in a repository in southwest London.
And if you want to buy copies of them, they'll post them to you, but you've got to pay them £50, about $70 or so.
Well, exactly.
But in any case, the reason is this.
They don't have any idea what happens with the abduction.
So say there's a smoking gun.
There are some documents that are present in the U.S. that are like those documents, no longer classified.
John Podesta, who was Barack Obama's chief of staff last February made a statement on Twitter to the effect that as he was leaving his office, his greatest regret was that he had not gotten Obama to release the UFO files.
And those files that he was referring to, and he said it's the law that they should be released.
And they are no longer classified.
It's more than 30 years.
There is no evidence that has emerged that they are of national security importance.
They consist of radar tracks, analysis of the radar tracks, and statements to the effect that these objects that were observed were apparently under intelligent control and reacted to the radar paints.
But they won't release them, not because they're no longer legally able to hold them.
They're just hiding them.
And the reason is very simple.
You release something like that to the media on one day, two days later, on all of the big media, they're trotting out one terrified close encounter witness after another, weeping and saying about all the terrible things that have happened to them and saying to the government, what can you do about this?
What is going on?
And the answer right now is they can't do a thing about it and they don't know what's going on.
And that is where it is.
And that is why there will never be a coherent release of documents until we can say or they can say with authority that this is what happened, this is what's going on, and this is what can and can't be done about it.
There is an active movement at the moment called Disclosure.
There is a movement.
It's raising funds.
It's traveling the world to try and raise funds and awareness.
To get precisely that, to get the opening of files and governments to come clean, especially your government, to come clean.
It's alleged to be going on.
And you say it's very pessimistic, and it's bad news for them because you say it's not going to happen.
It will not happen until there is some way to explain what people are reporting.
And I'm hoping that that archive, which is becoming available for academic study for the first time, will help.
Not that the people on the inside need an archive like that.
They've already got their own.
But what this means is that there is now an archive in the public domain that qualified scientists, social scientists, academicians, and scholars can use to build a picture up of what people are reporting and from that, perhaps, come to some kind of useful ideas about what it represents.
Now, my listener, Dean, has tweeted about what he calls the Roswell Top Secret Papers.
What do you think about the release of those?
I'm not sure what he's referring to.
Oh, but MJ.
What is he referring to?
Well, on the MJ12 papers that were just released.
Possibly he's talking about that, or maybe he was talking about, I had, and I'm sure you'll know of her, the woman who took over the mantle of the great art Belle on his radio show in the U.S. Heather Wade.
Sure, well.
Yeah.
Well, Heather was on this show last week, and she's on the podcast as well.
That's the same thing.
I know what you're talking about.
Talking about this big file of sheaf of papers she was given stamped ultra top secret.
Oh, yeah.
And she analyzed it carefully.
Okay, and what do you make of it then?
Okay, here's exactly what I make of it.
First, it's not a genuine document in the sense it's not something that was originally intended to be a classified document.
It is not written or designed in a way that fits that procedure and fit it even back in the 40s.
I mean, I have to say that if it was what it purports to be, the thing that made me suspicious about the document when I looked at it online, and you can find it online, it's there, Heather's put it there.
If it was such a hot document, I don't think I would stamp on the front of it in big letters, ultra top secret.
That seemed a little crass to me.
Well, also, the ultra classification didn't exist in that era.
Now, the other thing about it is that it is got a – there are things in it that I think are probably true.
And so it is a kind of leak of information.
Even incidentally, if it was a real document, genuine, and was classified at the time it was written, it's not classified now.
There is no – There's nothing in it of national security importance, no description of weapons or threats of any kind.
And that takes it outside of the realm of classification, meaning that anyone who had possession of it is free to put it, to send it, to do whatever they want with it.
Because the government can't copyright documents, so it's not, it's free use.
So the idea that it may once have been classified, but whoever, if it is a real document, whoever put it out did not disobey the law.
But as you say, it's a spaghetti bolognese of all kind of material, all kinds of material.
So that makes me wonder, and I'm sure you've wondered too, who would want to put this out there and why?
Well, maybe somebody who's trying to leak a piece of information, which is that this information that's buried in the document about there being dead babies found aboard this craft that was allegedly crafted, dead human babies.
And the idea that there are a total of, I think, 27 alien bodies being stored in various places across the U.S. dating back from the time of Roswell.
Well, you know, my uncle, one of my uncles, was involved in the Roswell incident at Wright Field in the debris collection and analysis.
And he never said anything to me about any bodies.
And General Arthur Exon, who was later the commanding officer of Wright-Pat, then called Wright-Patterson, was there also involved in this in the late 40s.
And he said everyone from Truman on down knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it.
But he also did not tell me anything about bodies.
And if they'd seen them, they would have, because they had absolutely no reason to conceal anything from me.
So what about these various accounts that we've heard of people who were supposedly, as many people were, deputed to the site, sworn to secrecy, made to take part in the clearance of the site, the recovery of objects, and those people who claimed that they drove trucks on the back of which under canvas or some other cover were the bodies of aliens.
What do we make of those accounts then?
Well, some of the materials have been recovered and are in the public domain.
And in fact, Dr. Jacques Vallée has analyzed what I believe to be some of the materials from Roswell, or they're certainly from somewhere, using very expensive isotopic analysis and determined that the isotopic ratios found in this material are not isotopic ratios that can occur on Earth or anywhere.
Anywhere.
They are, in other words, artificial.
They're isotopically unique.
They had to have been manufactured.
We cannot change the isotopic ratios of materials, or more accurately, we could do it if we had enough energy to do it, to concentrate on doing it.
But it would cost trillions of dollars and huge economies would have to be directed toward it in order to do it.
Andrew, one of my listeners, says he's really enjoying what you're saying.
Says it makes the hairs on the back of his neck stand up, which I guess is a result.
And Mark asks a question that I've wondered about too.
The fact that you are such a prolific writer and such a good writer and so acclaimed by so many people in this field.
I have a feeling I can guess the answer to this, but Mark wants to know, do you find writing works of fiction about these things cathartic?
I haven't written as much fiction about this as I maybe thought I would.
I'll tell you, though, that one book was delightful to write and it was cathartic.
It's called The Greys, and it was really a pleasure.
And I really got into exploring my imagination, as it were, about what the Greys, if they exist as aliens, as non-human beings, might be like and how they might function in our world and so forth.
The other one that was interesting to do was Majestic, my book about the Roswell incident, because I had all of this information from my uncle and from General Exon, and plus all of the reading I had done and the many people I had interviewed and talked to.
I'd been to Roswell at the time, and many of the older people who were actual direct witnesses to various aspects of what had happened were still alive.
And so I was able to talk to them.
And I just, you know, it was a really interesting thing to do.
And I kind of wove my fiction around the factual core of the thing, which was interesting.
I really had a good time doing that.
So those two things have been good.
The Alien Hunter series was less successful, and I sort of abandoned it after a while because I wasn't really getting out of it what I wanted.
It was made into a TV series that was shown here last year, a pretty good series, actually.
But I'm not going to return to it because it's not giving me the kind of journey of insight that I think your listener suggests I might be looking for in my fiction, which I certainly am.
Whitley Streamer, you can always find him at unknowncountry.com, a great website and a great guy.
Finally, here what happened now when I took June Lundgren, Oregon Medium and Psychic, around Hampton Court Palace.
Now, as I said at the top of this, they don't allow you to walk around recording, which is what I wanted to do.
So we went on the public tour around the palace, which is an amazing thing to do if you're here at any time.
It's southwest London, very close to the River Thames, Former home of Henry VIII, of course, so much history happened there.
But anyway, we did the public tour.
Then outside the building in the public area on the roadway, we discussed what she had come across while she was there.
Yes, it's quite interesting.
As I went through, there were several different entities that came through.
The first one I ran into was a little girl.
She hid in the area where the wine casts are kept.
Her name was Elizabeth, and she was very fearful.
She died from a disease.
And as I wandered further into the room, there is a stairwell that's cordoned off.
And I'm not sure what kind of a cellar it is, but it was there.
And I encountered a negative which growled at me and was not very nice.
Now, you talk about this stuff.
Sorry to interrupt, but I've just got to kind of set it into context for our listener, because some people are going to be saying this woman is clearly off her rocker.
But this is the stuff that you do, isn't it?
Yes, it's something I've been doing for a long, long time.
I've been a psychic medium all my life and been dealing with the negatives for the last 20 odd years.
And I can sense them from a location, a picture, an email, anything like that where I can make a connection.
And this one was definitely a negative.
It was a, what I call a lesser demon, which is an entity that has never taken human form.
He was not very nice.
He was calling me everything he could think of and then some.
And so I decided it was time to remove him because he needs not to be there and bother people, growl at people, push them, attack them.
So I removed it while I was here.
And then we traveled further down a long hallway and a head came out of a wooden door and peeked around the corner and it was none other than Henry VIII.
And he didn't look too happy to see me there and called me witch.
What else is new?
Well, look, doing the stuff that you do, in his time you would have been a witch.
In fact, you probably wouldn't have lived very long.
Oh, yeah.
I would definitely have not been open about it because he probably would have burned me or cut my head off or something like that.
Now, the strange thing is that when we were in the building, and now, of course, we are somewhere away and just digesting all of this, we asked one of the staff, you know, would Henry VIII have been in this area?
And I, look, history was never my strong point at school.
I know very little about history, along with science, two things that I'm not great at, but I'm learning all the time.
And one of the things we both learned was that that was an area that Henry VIII used to frequent.
He used to be around there quite a bit.
Yes, and he's still there.
He comes and goes.
He doesn't show himself a lot to people because he really doesn't want them to know he's here.
But he doesn't appear as an apparition, but maybe a handful of times.
And a lot of the staff will tell you that they never see him.
But if you're a medium at all, you'll be able to see him and sense him.
And he would just look like, what are you doing here?
Get out of my house, basically, was what he looked like.
We've got to say that there was nothing malevolent.
There was nothing that made anybody feel bad.
Exactly.
They're just going about their lives.
And most of them are unaware of the passage of time.
But there are those that are very much in the present.
And they're aware, like Henry, they're aware of the passage of time.
And Elizabeth was a very unhappy woman as we move further through.
She felt that she got cheated out of life, that she should have been a man, should have been born a man so that she could rule with an iron fist, so to speak.
There were several, I went, who went into one of the kitchens and there were a couple of cooks there, scullery maids, and they were discussing the fact that Queen Anne and Queen Mary were just really very sickly and that they needed to make broth for her and that they had the belief that she was being, that both of these women were being poisoned and they were not happy about it.
They never discussed what they thought, but among themselves.
As we moved through, there was a lot of different beings that were just like running through the hallways.
You told me at one point, walking down one of the very long corridors here, I think near Henry VIII's apartment, that you saw, oh no, it was William III's apartment, that you saw a woman in a green dress.
Quite a tall woman, I think.
Deep green dress.
Yes, in a deep green dress.
And she was wringing her hands and she looked very distressed and there was a lot of anxiety with her.
And she wouldn't give me her name.
I just know that she was a royalty of some kind.
Deep green dress, full length.
And she disappeared down the hall.
She looked like that she came and went down the hallway, paced down the hallway a lot.
She would be seen in the hallway quite frequently.
We walked into one big room and you said, oh, James, you got the sense of James I. Now, I knew nothing about that.
And we asked somebody, and it was, in fact, the quarters of James.
Yes, he was very predominant.
I actually ran into him at the Tower of London a few days before that.
And I knew that you had wanted to meet up at this place.
And I thought, well, you know.
And the next thing I know, I see this apparition.
And I didn't know his name until I came across carvings of faces.
And his name was there.
I recognized him as James.
All right.
So we had the little visit to Hampton Court.
But for you, this is just another day at the office, isn't it?
I know that you've been to other places all over the UK, but this thing that you have that says allows you to tap into whatever is there, for you, it never turns off, does it?
It doesn't turn off completely.
I can kind of tamp it down, but I can't shut it out completely.
I don't even try most of the time, but when I go to sleep or when I'm at work, I make sure I turn it off so that I'm not disturbed because as a nurse, you can't be distracted from your job.
How do you turn it off?
You have to basically put, picture yourself with a wall around yourself and shut the door.
And it turns it off to a certain extent.
I've asked you this on my podcast.
I'll ask you it in person.
You know, you work as a nurse.
That's your full-time job.
How does all of this stuff square with your life and death job as a nurse?
For years, I've been nursing for 42 years.
And when I used to work hospital work, I would see patients that were dying.
I knew when they were going to die, and I saw their souls leave their bodies.
And after years of doing that, I finally got out of it and got into work in a clinic setting.
But in the hospital setting, you know, you know they're dying.
Some of them get lost.
Some of them don't understand what's happening to themselves.
I do all my communications telepathically, so I would have to go somewhere quiet where no one would see me, and I could help them cross over.
Presumably you couldn't tell your bosses about that, and in many cases, I presume you couldn't tell the patient.
Yeah, you couldn't tell anybody because it's just really frowned upon in the medical field, you know, because it's all based on science.
So I always had to do it, you know, privately away from anybody.
I'd go to lunch and I'd tell them to follow me and I would talk to them during my lunch hour and help them to cross.
You also said, and we don't have to name any names, but it's an interesting story.
You told me that you came over here and somebody had requested your help.
Yes, there was a woman that I came over here and I got a Facebook message from a woman that had heard my podcast on your show.
And she said, well, there's this woman that really desperately needs help.
She's having problems with demons and that there's, you know, she's trying to sell her house because this thing is just always there.
She's had pictures taken of it with a demon type thing with horns and half goat.
And so I contacted her and offered my help while I was here.
Unfortunately, she's quite a ways away.
So I asked her to please send me a picture.
And she sent me a picture of herself.
And I told her that I would do what I can from a distance to remove the negative.
If it is what I call a lesser negative, then I can remove it from a distance.
If it had been one of what I call the old ones, I would have had to have been there to actually do the removal.
But I was able to get that done from a distance, and she's not having problems.
So you believe that even in 2017, this stuff that would seem to a lot of people to be medieval almost, of demons, of good and bad entities, all of the rest of it, that stuff is still being played out today, you think?
Oh, yeah, as long as there's people, there'll be negatives and positives.
You can't have a yin without a yang.
There is good and bad.
I'm not saying that there's demons or negatives everywhere you look, because there aren't.
There's mostly beings of light that just need help.
That's all.
June Lundgren, and like I say, June, I hope you had a safe trip back to Oregon, USA, and hope to see you again one of these days.
More great guests in the pipeline.
If you want to get in touch with me, go to the website theunexplained.tv.
You can send me a message from there, whatever you want to say about the show, any suggestions that you have.
Don't forget your questions for Baz Lansdorp.
We are recording him for broadcast on the 9th of July, so we've only got days to do that.
And Baz Lansdorp, of course, the head of Mars One.
Very excited to get him on the show.
It's taken a bit of organizing to do.
More great guests in the pipeline, so until next we meet.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained, and please stay safe.
Please stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you.
Take care.
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