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Aug. 26, 2016 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:05:59
Edition 266 - Harry Drew

This time researcher and author Harry Drew - and the mysterious Kingman "UFO" case(s)...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Still in the midst of summertime here in the northern hemisphere, we get days of heavy rain and days of bright sunshine.
It's been pretty warm.
It's warm right now as I record this.
But I know that summertime has not got long to go, so I think we better enjoy it while it's here because it will be on its way soon enough and then people will be complaining about how cold it is.
Probably.
Let's just hope we don't get any snow this year.
I don't think I can bear that.
I'm going to be doing some shout-outs on this edition.
Thank you very much if you have been in touch.
And if you've gone to the website theunexplained.tv, designed and created by Adam from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, follow the link and that's how you can contact me.
And of course, when you do get in touch with me, please tell me who you are, where you are, and how you use this show, very crucially, because that's all vital information.
And like I said last time, I'm not doing market research on you.
I'm just, as a human being, very interested in who you are and where you are and how you came to find me and why you might like this show.
It's a marvelous thing that we can sit here.
I know I said this on this show years ago, that we can sit here and do this, and I can reach you without a radio station or anything else.
Now, as I record these words, I hope I don't sound too tired.
I finished my radio show at 2 o'clock this morning.
I got home.
And then, you know how it is?
If you spend most of your week getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning to go to work, and then one night a week, you're completely the opposite end of the clock.
You don't sleep.
So I'm doing this show now on about 75 minutes of sleep, if that.
Let's hope I don't sound it eh.
Let me know if I do.
It's half the fun.
Guest on this edition, Harry Drew, author, historian, and all-round good guy from the US.
We're going to be talking about the Kingman UFO case, which is his speciality that he's done an awful lot of research and work on.
So Harry Drew coming soon.
Let's get to those shout-outs, though, now.
Starting with Donna Fitzgerald, emailing from the West of Ireland, listens with her husband, author and TV personality, Barry Fitzgerald from Sci-Fi's Ghost Hunters International.
Donna says, Barry and I listen to your show.
We thoroughly enjoy your intelligent approach.
And we think you have a voice like an English version of Morgan Freeman.
I think Morgan would have a few things to say about that.
He's one of my favorites, though.
I love the Shawshank Redemption.
Get busy living or get busy dying is my favorite line from that.
I probably know every line from the Shawshank Redemption and have probably watched it at least 12 or 14 times.
Donna and Barry, nice to hear from you.
Hope to have Barry on the show soon.
Andy Glynn said, my gratitude and thanks for the show.
I like guests like David Icke and Uri Geller.
We'll have them back on.
Andy, thank you.
Mr. Hughes, don't change a thing.
I faithfully listened to the podcasts on iTunes and I look forward to your English weather reports.
You've had a lot of rain and high temperatures and humidity in Louisiana, I understand.
Ricky LaFleur in Aberville, Louisiana.
Please take care.
James McQueen in Edinburgh says, where do I start?
What a show.
Only recently discovered it and greatly likes it.
Thank you for that.
James, in Edinburgh, Scotland.
Who else have we got?
Oh, Ben.
Detailed and very kind email.
Thank you, Ben, for that, and I wish you well.
Richard Clark, suggesting Stephen and Evan Strong from Australia would be great on your show.
ForgottenOrigin.com is their website.
Okay, Richard, I'll get on to that.
Tariq in Norwich, nice to hear from you.
Griffo in Liverpool L5.
Griffo, flying the flag for the greatest city on the planet.
Thanks, Griffo, for getting in touch.
Alan Adams, thank you.
Stephen Spraggs, good to hear from you.
Colin McSherry in Scotland.
Mark Wandless, after my radio show last night as I record these words, thank you for your support.
Mike Bessler in America, good suggestion.
And Mike has been listening to the show for 12 years.
Thank you for being there, Mike.
Karen, a regular listener.
Karen, thank you very much for your kind email and your support.
And Gary wants to hear Timothy Goode, nice man, interesting man, and David Icke back on this show.
David Icke appears regularly.
He will be back in the next, sometime within this year.
And Timothy Goode, you're right.
I need to get him back on to talk about UFOs.
Let's get now to American author and historian Harry Drew, and we're going to be talking about the Kingman UFO story, which he has intensively researched.
Harry, thank you very much for coming on my show.
It is my pleasure.
Tell me about where you are then, Harry, because I believe you live in the place that we're going to be talking about.
I live in the area, yes, but not quite in the wilds of where this actually occurred, but a few miles away, Kingman, Arizona, which is somewhat north and west in the state, in the Arizona state where you see a lot of the typical things, the background of mountain ranges and a lot of desert.
We call it the Mojave with an H. And we're right next to or in part of what is called the Mojave with a J, M-O-J-A-V-E.
And I think the prospectors here back in the mid-1800s just spelled it like it sounded.
And so they wrote down M-O-H-A-V-E, Mojave.
So it's kind of an accustomed thing with some of the immigrants and the pioneers here that whatever it sounded like, that's how they wrote it out.
Well, do you know something?
We've only been talking for a minute, and I've learned something already, Harry.
Okay, now the Kingman case is something that I'd never heard of until it was suggested that I speak with you.
So I did a little bit of reading about this Kingman case.
And I know that you spent a long time and a decade or more digging about this case.
From what I see online, opinions seem to differ about it.
Some people say this is a great and not told enough story.
Other people say there is insufficient evidence to prove that anything happened at Kingman in 1953 is the year we'll be talking about.
So if you can, before we begin to really get into the nuts and bolts of it, Tell me what you believe happened in Kingman.
I can tell you from eyewitnesses that alleged to have seen this craft.
Those that saw it saw, actually, there were three in what I call Seven Days of May in the book that I'm about to release.
And you have those who saw the craft, each one, at a different day during those seven days.
And then there are those who were at the site of the craft.
And I call them firsthand eyewitnesses because their claim is they touched this thing or these things.
And I'm very aware of there's about 15 variations and little stories about the Kingman UFO.
And nobody has gotten up off of their chair and away from their computer monitor to go and check anything out.
And so a lot of claims were made.
And if I say anything at all about alleged, it would be that the stories that have been written or little vignettes made are alleged and variations of their own making in regard to what is Kingman.
Here are the things that I can tell you about it.
First off, by profession, I am a historian.
I am a director of museums of anthropology, archaeology, and history.
I am also a journalist of more than 40 years and an author.
And so there are protocols that I follow when I do research, and I actually do fieldwork on the ground, and nobody's done that.
And this came to light in 1973 publicly when a man by the name of Arthur Stansell, which all of the other 15 storytellers get his name spelled wrong, the last name.
They never get it right.
And he was interviewed by a renowned, very credible man by the name of Raymond Fowler, who was with NICCAP, which is like the forerunner of what it's called Mufang.
And he interviewed this man in April through June of 1973 because this man was mentioned in a newspaper front page article on the 23rd day, a Monday, of 1973 in the South Middlesex Daily News, Sudbury, Massachusetts.
That's back east in the United States.
And this man worked for the materials division for Project Upshot Knothole, which is Frenchman Flats Atomic Bomb Testing.
He spent 12 years at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and was sent to Frenchman Flats in Nevada, where he basically was, if we kind of put a name on it now, it'd be more like the bomb blast damage analyst.
And they built various buildings and stuck different things up in the area of a blast area to get an idea of what it does to a wood frame structure, concrete buildings, buses, et cetera.
And he was one of 40 scientists and specialists that were brought together in Kingman, Arizona on the 21st day of May 1953 to be brought out to a place where the Air Force covers story was a super secret experimental aircraft had gone down.
And they brought them out in the early evening of the 21st of May 1953.
And they spent one hour on the ground.
And Raymond Fowler, the researcher back east in Massachusetts, did a 65-page interview for this man in April through June of 1973, 20 years after the fact.
All right.
Why did he wait 20 years to talk about it?
I know that sounds like a really dumb question, Harry.
Why did he wait 20 years to talk about it?
Here's some of the first things as far as I call them exaggerators, the missed stories being told about Kingman.
And the reason was there was a young man by the name of Jeff Young, who was 15 years old in 1973, who was doing a book on UFOs for youth.
And this was picked up by the local South Middlesex Daily Newspaper, and it was a human interest story and front page and a number of pages into the paper for that date on April 23, 1973.
And one of the people he mentioned was his neighbor, Arthur Stansel, who told him a little bit about the Kingman UFO that he went out to examine.
And that's how this happened.
So this wasn't a controlled release of information.
This happened because of a chain of circumstances, because somebody was doing an investigation.
Yes.
Yes, conditionally.
The problem here was I don't think Arthur Stansel, the evidence I have is Arthur Stansel did not even imagine that this would get out.
This was local, like just a local story.
It's a young man who's doing this, trying to write a little book for people his age.
And it kind of got out of control, I think, and he had some misgivings.
I can tell you that Raymond Fowler, the researcher back in Massachusetts, did a remarkable job.
And I really respect this man for his work, very credible.
It was research type of work, but no field work.
Okay, nothing to get on the ground and try to find, interview people in Kingman, old family, century families, and try to find the sites where these things happened.
But the interesting thing was that the first thing that happened after this came out in a magazine called UFO Magazine, April 1976, it was released where everybody could read some information about this.
And it was filed with NICAP in June of 1973.
So anyone having access to NICAP papers would have been able to see this.
And I'm saying this because I'm backing up on something.
It's the principal people involved who wrote Roswell books followed what I'm telling you.
Okay?
They followed.
And I've been interviewed before, and the interviewers say, this sounds a lot like Roswell.
Well, listen, I was going to say that, but it is very...
Am I right?
I interviewed the last living member of the U.S. Air Force retrieval team who came here to recover the craft.
And there were things, he was a young airman.
He retired as a lieutenant colonel in the United States Air Force, fighter pilot, test pilot, all of this stuff.
And then upturned another lieutenant colonel who was a friend of his.
And they were both serving together at Nellis Air Force Base.
Nellis is close, even on the ground, to where we are in regard to driving from Kingman, Arizona, going towards Las Vegas.
It's about 140 miles on the highway, and by air, it's much shorter and, of course, much quicker.
But the military, there's so many things and facets of this, it's going to be very hard to cover everything.
And I try to give an overview for people to get a better understanding.
Kingman had an Army Air Corps training base at Kingman, Arizona, a large Army Air Corps training base to train B-17 crews, primarily the gunners who were being used in Europe to fight against the Nazis, the Luftwaffe.
And because of that and because of the intensity of what was going on being secret, the people in Kingman, in the Kingman area, were subjected to undeclared martial law, which meant loose-lips think ships.
You just don't tell anybody anything.
And there was a natural avoidance to outsiders.
Do you think that that was a contributing factor then for this taking so long to get out?
This is why the story didn't get out to begin with.
If there'd been a UFO landed in somebody's front yard, they wouldn't have any recollection of it at all if they'd been sitting there watching it.
Right.
So they were doing their duty, sworn to secrecy, and the chances that the story would come out and come out clearly then were smaller.
They were diminished.
Yes.
And there is also, and the old families, there is a relationship family-wise with nearly all of them.
And for the old families here still, and I don't mean that in any disrespect, they're very good people.
But there was a rancher by the name of Leonard Neal who moved from what is called the Big Sandy River down by a place called WikiUp, Arizona, which is southeast of Kingman quite some distance, and came up to what is called the Hualapai,
H-U-A-L-A-P-A-I Valley, which is where Kingman is, right next to the Hualapai Mountain Range, which is 8,256 feet high.
Stands up like the Rockies.
And he came and settled, and basically a lot of people became relatives.
And in fact, on the second UFO incident, what is called the Red Lake, I call the Red Lake UFO crash, Leonard Neal and 11 other residents stood and watched it go down on Leonard Neal's property.
And the Air Force came to recover it.
But that was four days after the first one.
And this is the important thing about the first one is that it landed.
It didn't crash.
The crew didn't get killed or injured.
It just was forced down.
And I have pretty much settled out why, and I can get into that in a few minutes.
But the Air Force colonel told me something in an interview.
He's talked to a lot of people.
He was 85 when I interviewed him.
He passed away a year later.
And this is years ago.
I started the project in 2006.
You know, it's like historians.
It takes us a while.
We don't leave a single stone unturned.
We want to look under everything so that if there are any clues, we can find those things and pursue it.
I spent six years doing field work.
You know, when I can get out into the desert, if it's monsoon season, it's too dangerous to do.
If it gets real, it gets very cold over by Kingman, especially around the Wallapai Mountains where it snows, that type of thing.
So you have to be careful, as well as being mindful of the fact that of Arizona's 15 poisonous creatures, 11 of them are here.
Good God.
So there are all kinds of, if the weather doesn't get you, then the snakes will and it's the way it's been since the prospectors were here and before that the Native Americans you know the the the various tribes that were here they they I marvel sometimes we had a our hottest day last month was 115 degrees Fahrenheit I can't imagine what that's like we we had one day of 100 degrees in London a few years ago now look so
You spoke to people who actually dealt with material that was recovered, were part of that.
And because you say that you are a methodical investigator, and I don't doubt what you say, then you would want to go back and unpick the story that they told you.
So 10 years ago, 2006, you set yourself a monumental task.
Well, I wanted to resolve the issue in my mind in regard to was there really ever a Kingman UFO or not?
Because in all of these things that have been written, so many different little stories and versions, they say hoax, not a hoax, it's real.
Some of the same individuals say it's real, and then they say it's not real.
You know, and it can't have it either way at the same time.
And so I wanted to know to resolve that for me because it was very interesting.
Because you see, the one that landed is the UFO.
The entire Area 51 UFO story is based on.
That's pretty important.
Well, that's damned important.
Are we saying then that that UFO was recovered and is in a hangar somewhere?
It was recovered.
It took, there was no military presence here.
In spite of what's been written by other nondescript and poorly researched individuals, there was no military here after August 1945.
And forever, the base was closed and the property and the air base handed over to Mojave County.
And today and back in 1948 and 49 beginning, they took over and it became a private airfield.
Okay, so where did this craft and the remnants of the crashed craft, where did that material go, do we think?
The craft went down with 15 locals in what is called Stringtown, meaning out away from the little core six blocks of what was Kingman, Arizona in 1953.
And it went down southeast of Kingman, Arizona.
I won't say specifically where.
All of this has been mapped and photographed.
An engineer who developed the most sophisticated ROV flight control system in the world for James Cameron's Mariana Trench Dive stopped his work and came up for me to run a drone with six of my cameras so that I could get some kind of an idea of the ground lay because they couldn't read it well enough because of vegetation growth over the last 20 years that has happened because there's getting to be a climate change here like everywhere else on the planet
pretty much.
And so I could not read the ground like I normally do because things are in the way.
So the drone was flying like 10 feet above the ground and 30 feet off the ground so that I could see things that a friend of mine who is a museum curator who spent 20 years on the ground trying to find like the Red Lake crash site.
He knew where it was, the general area, but he couldn't find anything.
And I found that as a result, verified it with the drone so that I could see things the way I would see if the brush, some of the brush had been removed then i could see the ground for any activity for the last 5,000 years or so.
And so that happened and I had the advantage, but these are things that nobody else has done.
You know, I'm actually out there and it's off of a 1912 wagon road.
You know, and it's not like a popularly traveled place.
It was so bad, it's so remote that the Air Force using walkie-talkies, the handheld radios of the time, had to dispatch one or two of the people in a jeep to drive out far enough to where they could talk to someone and be heard, other military people.
And right now, today, where this craft went down, there's no salt signal.
There's nothing.
You're just there.
Harry, if you say there was a clear-up in 1953 and you've spoken to people who were involved in that part of it, if they did their job properly, there would be nothing to see now, would they?
Well, that's not exactly right.
Oh, would they?
Yeah, they did their job.
One of the other things you have to do as a historian, and just for your listeners, is you have to put yourself back in the time slot mentally so that you understand how everyone thought, pretty much felt about things,
the reaction, what was and wasn't important, and then do away with the technology that we're all used to right now, because there was no television here in 1953.
And telephone was a few of the rotary dial, and they were connected to out in the country where people used a wood box with a magneto crank on the side to ring and a dry cell battery to carry current over a single wire.
So when there was a ring, everybody on the line heard it ringing.
And you listen to how many rings is yours.
I mean, so it's set back like that.
Right.
And so we have to remind people, we have to tell people, especially younger people who listen to this show, that when something happens, it isn't always the case in an era like that where everybody gets to know about it.
That's not so.
You can keep things secret.
Oh, I will take it even one more step, Howard, and it's this: that news didn't travel very far.
No one here knew about Roswell.
Nobody.
You're kidding.
What?
In 1953, they'd never heard of it.
No.
Well, you know, within one, there's one of the storytellers, the exaggerator, says that he researched this and he checked all the newspapers within 100 miles of Kingland, Arizona, even Las Vegas, and not one word was mentioned about any UFOs during this time period.
And I was instantly suspect when I read this, and I checked, and there were only two newspapers.
One was in Prescott.
When you look at the word, it looks like it says Prescott, Prescott.
And it was front page news there.
You know, I mean, there was front page news in Kingman.
The other paper is Needles, California.
So it's two newspapers.
But there are all kinds of stories.
and they're in my book, you know.
didn't know about Roswell, so you can't...
So people would make the argument that they read about this sort of thing in the papers and were more inclined to believe something had happened like that because they read it in a newspaper.
So if they see something crash or they see something in the sky, they think, oh, that's just like Roswell.
That did not happen here.
No.
Okay.
All right.
No, no, no, no.
It was all cushion.
Oh, hush, hush.
People knew about, a lot of people knew about the Red Lake crash.
And more people knew about, that was on the 22nd of May, 1953.
Even more people knew about the May 24th crash.
It happened right in front of everybody in Old Town Gingman, you know, in the day.
It hit the side of the Wallapai Mountain.
It's of the mountain fire.
So I was, you know, it's not like this is like hidden stuff, but to the outside world.
And it was suppressed.
And so you have some people say, well, we come in and we've tried to talk to some locals and say, oh, well, nothing happened.
You know, and it's like, I spent years here before some of the old-timers would confide and tell me things about what had happened.
There are things here they still will not talk about, even to me, and some things that, quite frankly, their body language tells me they're afraid to even share.
Now, are they inherently afraid, Harry, or did somebody after the event make them afraid?
In other words, were they told to keep their mouths zipped?
Oh, yes.
And they did.
And part of it was patriotism because of the war effort and all of this stuff.
And then the other was because it was obviously something well beyond what the military was telling them.
There were complaints, I mean, about some of these things.
And some of the, they were basically experimental radar systems.
They were brought in, three of them, and they were head of an installation that was set up in 1955 two years later, and they brought in 200 Air Force military to run this like a backscatter radar system.
But it wasn't actually, as we call it, backscatter, but for the time.
But they were experimenting with super overpowered radar systems.
They were portable units.
They had a radar operator and a technician.
They had no idea what they were doing other than they were trying to increase range.
And the microwave short-pulse radiation-fired radar, which had no frequency locks.
So they were trying to reach 150-mile range.
The ground radar at the time was 25 miles.
You wanted 50, double the power.
It's pretty simple that way.
But to get to 150 miles, why would they want to do that?
Cold War.
The Russians were said, or Soviet Union at the time, were said to be building a bomber called the Bearer that has the capability of transporting nuclear weapons.
And they could make a polar over the pole, North Pole flight, down into the United States and bomb us.
And the next thing they're in your backyard.
So are we saying, and please tell me if I've got this completely wrong, because I may well have, that part of the reason perhaps UFOs were attracted to here was because of radar experiments that in a way brought them in?
My best guess would be that because of the way the three radar systems were set up, they just happened this way.
This wasn't planned.
They were set up in a triangular way on the ground.
And when they snapped them on, right down the middle through this triangle is still the flight path for UFOs going north-south.
And when they switched it on, down came the first craft.
And it had some type of an effect on avionics or the propulsion system or something.
And I have no idea.
There's no way I can find that out.
I don't believe.
But all I do know is that it was seen going down 7.62 miles before it made contact with the ground and then settled 20 inches into the soil because it weighed five tons.
How do we know these things?
This thing was picked up.
The landing site, I found because the elderly surviving member of the Air Force retrieval team, in passing, as he talked, mentioned something that was a landmark.
And for the first time, I had something I could actually look for.
Listen, how did this member of the retrieval team, I don't think we got to how you found this person.
Did this person contact you or did somebody tell you about this person?
Actually, A man by the name of Morello, who I was talking, is a friend of mine, mentioned the colonel had been involved in six recoveries and mentioned Kingman and walked me right over to him.
He was where we were at a meeting, and I talked to him and then did an interview.
So it was just like happenstance.
And I've had several of these that are really uncanny as far as, you see, the last one, two of the crew were taken into custody, and they were taken to the county sheriff's office and they were put in a solid concrete steel reinforced vault.
So hang on, you're saying that two aliens were taken into custody and put in a steel vault.
Is that right?
The last craft that went down, two of the crew perished and were taken out above a fire going on in the forest.
And this is like the end of it instead of the front of it.
And this was when the whole thing was truly became science fiction to me because I was trying to find out about the Kingman craft at the beginning.
And then I find out that a lot of people had confused the Red Lake crash as the Kingman crash.
And the Kingman vehicle landed, okay, and was removed intact four days later.
And the next craft crashed.
The retrieval team was just coming back from handing off the other craft when this thing went down in the morning.
And then two days later on the 24th, so it's like, I was surprised about the Red Lake craft, but then I understood they're getting these things confused.
The first and the second one were a little bit, the stories are kind of mixed up and they're all wrong, but there's some things that they got right and they're mixed up.
The third one was missed completely and I had no idea about number two or number three.
When I found out about the other in a document I found, I went to the head of security for Mojave County Court and it was the description of the interior of the old county sheriff's office.
And I had been told by the Sheriff's Department, law enforcement here for the county of Mojave, that the building had been torn down years and years before.
And it makes sense over 60 years had gone by.
And so I asked a local museum who's worked with me on this.
And they said, no, it's gone.
And then I got a call back and said, wait a minute, the sheriff was someplace else.
And I got a hold of this document.
So I met with the head of security for the court, and that's to oversee all the security for the judges and the court business and all of that in the lower part of the 1915 Mojave County Courthouse in the basement in the northwest corner below grade, meaning there's no windows.
You're below the surface of the ground outside.
And I asked the head of security, if I described the interior of the sheriff's office based on what I have in this document, would you just tell me yes or no if it's right or wrong?
I didn't know that I was sitting right next to it.
And I read it to him and he said, come with me.
And he took me into this area and even right down to an oak bench that a Forest Service worker sat on who brought these two.
And a newspaper reporter saw this happen and he wrote down the Forest Service worker, Joe, just took into custody two, get this, two strange-looking men, unquote.
And they were put in into the, locked into the, what later became called an interrogation room.
And one deputy out of four was sent to find the sheriff because it's small, like in U.S., an old TV series with Andy Griffith, Mayberry, USA.
It was like Mayberry.
That's exactly what you mean.
But I'm very surprised that any, look, if this was all so secret and hush, hush, I'm surprised that any documentation survived about this.
Oh, it does, and I've got it.
Oh, it's amazing.
Talk about surprise.
It was creepy.
I mean, it's, yeah, it was like, wait a minute.
You know, this is like, this is impossible.
This is where I said it became like a science fiction to me.
You have this where a fort service worker is up at the scene of the fire.
The Air Force was up above and they got what they could and they had to evacuate because the fire is racing up the mountain and they can't stay there.
They would be injured or killed.
And they got away with some of the parts of the craft and two of the remains.
And the other two were unaccounted for.
And as Forest Service workers bringing up supplies and fighting fire in 1953 here in the United States and here in Kingman, they were taking large metal round washtubs and filling with water and soaking gunny sacks, that's burlap bags, and pounding the grass with wet bags to knock the fire down.
And they had the latest device you wear with shoulder straps on your back.
It was a copper tank and had a little hose with a brass nozzle.
You pump and you squirt little streams of water.
And they were bringing a bulldozer up, a thing that moves earth to plow everything out of the way and to try to stop the fire.
It was out of control for a week.
It just burned like crazy because this is a mountain with elk and timber and all of this.
What did they take away from there, Harry?
What did they remove from the site?
Say again, please.
From the site of this crash and fire, what was removed?
You said that I think alien remains maybe and remains of craft.
Were they actually taken away or put somewhere?
where did they go?
They went to Groom Lake, which we now all refer to as Area 51, that was an Army Air Corps base in Nevada.
Understood.
And who told you that?
Who told you that?
Who told me which material went to Area 51?
Two Air Force individuals.
One, the elderly man I'm telling you about.
And including the way it went, the stories about how it was hauled out of here.
I've already written about it a few places publicly.
The story is like it was taken out Highway 40.
This is like in some big sites.
It was taken out Highway 40, which is a freeway.
Speed limit here in the U.S. is 75 on this highway.
And it was taken west down to the Colorado River, across the river, and up an old road 20 miles up to Highway 97, or I mean 95 rather, that goes straight north to Groom Lake and Area 51, ultimately.
But the problem was Highway 40 would not be built for another 31 years.
So it's like these stories, these guys that do the research aren't doing the research.
So you're using roads that don't exist.
I know how they got it up there.
I've driven the roads and they exist.
And I know because I've been on them with my Jeep.
I found the landing site based on a landmark.
When I got there, and what Arthur Stancil said in his 1973 interview, one part of it told me exactly where I needed to go.
It was like I'd been there before.
Once I found the landmark, I know what to do.
And when I got to the site, everything that the Air Force decided to leave behind in 1953 was in situ right there.
Still.
And so what was there to see?
Well, let's see.
Here's a nice one.
It's like from an archaeological standpoint where like you find some things that have been made by a tribe or an ancient culture and they're indicative.
When you look at the object, like a Clovis point, which is a mammoth hunter type of spear point, you know you're looking at somewhere between 13 and 16,000 years ago.
You can narrow that down, but at least it tells you what you're looking at.
And on site, numbering into the hundreds, were some things produced under government contract for the military in 1951 and 1952 only.
They were experimental and they were there.
The Dutch ovens they made are still sitting there and made from stones that are not natural to the area.
I know where they came from.
They were brought in.
So you know those things were there.
You know the military were there.
But what you don't, you know the military were there and you know what hardware they left because you saw it.
There's no question.
Yeah, there's no question a military.
But what you need the proof of is why they were there.
They might have been there for another reason.
That would be very true.
But then I ask you this, Howard.
Why was I there?
Well, you were there following up the UFO report.
I understand this.
But I suppose what my listeners, because they're just as impatient as I am for knowledge, they would want to know that you found something perhaps from a craft there that had been left behind, or at least the imprint of some craft that had landed or crashed or whatever there.
That's what they want.
The imprint of where the craft sat is there because of the lack of erosion in the area.
Because we're desert.
And even though the rain has increased and we get some underbrush, the cut that was made by the military to bring in this model 3301 General Motors Army bus, 40 passenger, 36 passenger with a jump seat for four or luggage, no back window.
And the roads had to be flat enough for it to be able to traverse there.
This is not a place you would have to go in with four-wheel drive and all of like a Land Rover or something.
And the cut that was made there for the bus turnaround and all of that is still there, pristine.
Okay.
The other thing is equipment brought in from Camp Irwin, about 230 miles west of Kingman, because there was no military in Kingman.
There was no equipment to pick up a flying saucer.
That's what this thing was.
It's no longer unidentified flying object.
But can I be absolutely crystal clear about this?
You saw the imprint, I can't even say it, the imprint of the craft in that site or at that site, yes?
Are you still there?
Yeah, I am.
You want me to be clear or what?
About whether you saw the imprint of the craft or a craft at that site.
What did it look like, Harry?
What did it look like?
It's just an, it's an indentation in a very wide area where it came down.
When I pulled up with my Jeep and the window's down, it's about 105 and I'm looking out the window, side driver's window.
I could tell I was parked right at the field kitchen.
And I was.
And there's a bivouac area.
The 20 military police with dogs were brought in and they set up tents in four corners around the area.
The sheriff tried to come up with the undersheriff because of all this equipment going through Old Town Kingman, only two roads in and out, including some things brought up by rail from Camp Irwin, including an M25 tank transporter with 38-foot trailer.
And it went right through Old Kingman.
And the next day, he and the undersheriff went out and couldn't get past the military police that barricaded the road before where they were working.
It wouldn't let him through.
All right.
Well, this indicates that something, this indicates, Harry, that something big was going on there.
Can you be sure that it wasn't like a Soviet experimental craft that they'd recovered or something else?
Are we sure that this is UFO in nature, what they were there for?
Arthur Sansell in 1973 described this in an interview to Raymond Fowler as it was a craft.
It was a disc.
And they pulled up with the bus.
The windows had been taped off with missile tape before leaving Phoenix, Arizona.
You have a bus with 40 scientists and specialists aboard this bus.
The driver's name was Dennis, by the way.
And then I know where the bus went later.
And the driver's name then for several years who drove it Monday through Fridays was Michael.
You know, so it is when I do the research, I went back to 1856 and then I started walking forward in time so I get a lay of the land about I want to know where the roads are, I want to know where the people are, I want to know what the resources are, what the infrastructure is here and what they have, what they don't have, where they would get it, how long it would take, so that I can start looking at what I'm told in interviews.
Because interviews can be embellished very easily or they can be just made up completely.
But over time, as people get older and they become more fond of their reminiscence, they inadvertently embellish little points there and there.
And it can distort things.
And I've done, I haven't any idea how many interviews I've done over my 40 plus years of doing this, but a lot.
And so these things were relevant to me.
So I have to tear it apart.
I'm my own advocate to make this where I can say this never happened or I can't prove it didn't happen anymore.
I may not be able to prove it all happened just as I've heard or just as I've examined or just as I have discovered, but something else happened.
So we start off with a bus full of scientists.
We're looking at supposedly a craft.
This is the story that was given by a colonel who came aboard the bus and gave everybody, made them raise their right hand, and they had to swear the secrecy oath not to be telling anybody about what they were going to see because it's a super secret experimental aircraft.
The problem with that starting number one is that they weren't just taken to a hangar because they would never leave a super secret, undamaged, super secret Air Force experimental aircraft sitting in the dirt.
Okay, they just don't do that.
They didn't do it then.
They don't do it now.
Okay.
My stepmother, who had been previously married, her husband, who passed away, her husband was United States Air Force air crash investigator, okay, for the Air Force.
I know how that works even from what he was doing.
And the problem is Arthur Stansel, everybody just went, yes, the military says it's this way, so it's this way.
There was no question and there was no doubt that the government or the military might fib to you, absurd as that may seem.
And after all this was over, Arthur Stansel went back east to spend some time off from the job working with the nuclear bomb blast work at Upshot Knothole at Frenchman Flat in Nevada.
And he went to a drive-in movie theater to watch a movie and they're showing newsreels.
And here comes a newsreel and it's on Blue Book.
And the colonel who had spoken to them and gave them a secrecy oath on the bus was featured.
And he was part of Operation Blue Book.
And then Arthur Stancer realized the reason he couldn't understand a lot of things about this graph he was examining is that it wasn't ours.
And that's what he said.
Now, the question that some of my listeners will be screaming at me to ask, so I've got to ask it, and apologies if you've already partly answered this, but I don't think you have.
Did anything anomalous, perhaps not from this planet and living, survive and go somewhere after these incidents?
In other words, were aliens taken to Area 51?
I think is the real question I'm asking.
Okay, I'll give you the pecking order, number one, number two, number three.
The first craft landed on 18 May 1953.
When this airman, this was his first time, and they're on the back of a military truck, and they arrive at the scene.
The back of the truck is covered with canvas.
It's got canvas flaps.
He saw the landmark as they were driving down the road and the flap wasn't tied shut and it could move back and forth.
And he saw the landmark that he described to me.
And thank goodness, because he had no idea where it was.
It was about 30 to 40 minutes out of Kingman.
He knew that.
And when they got there, he had no idea what he was going to see.
And when they got out, the four crew members of the craft, this is according to him now.
You have to understand, this is as told to me.
So I'm not making any of this up.
I'm not embellishing anything.
This is what was told to me.
Four of the crew members were standing there outside the crown because they wouldn't fly anymore.
And they're in the middle of nowhere.
And right now, that place is in the middle of nowhere still.
This is Arizona.
It's like you could put the UK inside of the state.
I know, it's huge.
But four crew members from the craft.
Right.
They were immediately loaded up.
They had to send some Air Force men out to radio where they could talk on the radio because of obstructions and their radios wouldn't work.
And they had to drive north.
As you said, this was a very difficult radio reception area, but very crucial piece of information.
Four alien crew members were rounded up.
They were standing by the craft.
What did they look like?
Like us.
I'll tell you, the elderly man became very emotional and almost breathless.
And he said, and they were human, you know, and it's like he was still in awe that they didn't have suckers on their fingers and antennas on their head, like in the science fiction movies, even from, you know, War of the Worlds and all of that stuff that was going on 1953 and Day the Earth Stood Still in 1951.
So how did he know that they weren't human?
Maybe they were.
Well, he said they were human.
Okay, so they were people like that.
They were four and a half to five feet high.
They were wearing flight suits, okay, coveralls.
They were described by the reporter later on the 24th crash as two strange-looking men.
And then they were described by the Forest Service worker as wearing some type of coverall.
It's a flight suit.
You know, it's like, they don't know.
This is 1953 Kingman.
They've never had any Russian pilots crash on a mountain or Air Force pilots crash on a mountain.
And so they don't know.
They're just, they're not stupid.
It's just that they're unassuming.
They believe what the officials are telling them, even if the officials deliberately created a big story that had no facts anywhere involved in it.
Just if it sounds good, tell them.
And it's like some of the stories being told right now and have been told for 30 years by exaggerators is that never mind the facts, just go with a good story.
And that's what's happened.
And basically, I've been going against the green in that regard because I've been on the ground and using information that I had.
And this is the key.
Why was I there?
I used information I got during an interview, along with looking at an interview.
I have the report, the county historian from 1978 acquired information directly from Raymond Fowler, including the report, then made all kinds of questions and a call he made and annotated and wrote right on the report I have the findings he had.
And he passed away the county historian from Olivet County, which I am at this moment.
And in regard to all of this, I am the leading expert.
And it isn't that I wanted to be.
It's just I had to find out.
You know, I want to know as much as I can and how much of this is factual.
Well, we don't want to mislead people.
The one thing we don't want to do is to mislead anybody.
So I think as we conclude this, we have to spell it out really clearly.
From the research that you've done, which has been extensive and on the ground and talking to people and looking at documents, do you, Harry, believe that in a string of incidents, craft that are not from perhaps this planet, piloted by beings or people or whatever you want to call them, not from around here, were part of those incidents, were involved in those incidents?
Is that what you're saying here, as far as you are aware, having talked to people involved?
I can only base this on I have not seen the aliens.
I have not seen the craft.
I can't, if the craft indeed exists and the complete movement of how this craft was taken out of here and where it went, I've done all that with the exception of actually going by barge over the back of the Hoover Dam, Boulder Dam.
And it was transported because it couldn't cross the dam.
It was too wide.
But I'm still confused as to whether it was something secret from here or whether it is believed by those people who were part of it, based on the warnings they were given and the things they were told and what they saw, that it couldn't have been from here.
In an era just after Roswell, when these things may or may not have happened, as far as we all know, what does the smart money say about what happened there?
What I was told was this was not an extraterrestrial craft.
This was like an atmospheric vehicle.
This vehicle had a place to go.
It's still considered having a place to go.
There was the old timers, and I've conceded with them, along with my good and dear wife, who is a British citizen and from London.
I will not try to go and locate the underground base.
I was not far from where I am told the general area of where it is by the old-timers.
They don't want me to go there because some have attempted that who have never been seen again, that type of thing.
And I don't need any more encouragement because there was two confrontations already out on this middle of nowhere, which I won't go into, but it wasn't from some local because there is no local there.
This was an appearance deliberate to want to know why I'm there.
And so I can tell you without any reservation, something landed where This landing site is something didn't tear the ground up because at the Red Lake craft after the drone flights, I found where this vehicle ricocheted off of a rocky butte, it flew ricocheted 0.21 miles before it augered into the desert floor.
And there are piles of bottom rock right now where the Air Force dug down to extract the rest of the vehicle because it gutted out the lower front portion of the craft.
Two of the crew suffered severe.
This is according to the Air Force men.
Two suffered severe lower extremity injuries and they died at the medical facility at Nellis.
The other two were taken where the first four went up to Groom Lake.
Okay?
When they handed them off, when they handed off the crews, when they handed off the vehicles, they have no knowledge of what the disposition of things were after that, because they don't need to know that.
And they're not told that.
Okay, that's how it works.
As we end this now, then, Harry, and thank you for spending an hour with me.
It sounds to me as if your research, comprehensive it has been, but it's thrown up for you even more questions than you started with.
If you were to have like three, if I was to say, Harry, what are the three or two or whatever questions that you personally would like to answer about Kingman now before your time is done here, what would those questions be?
My question would be if they, in fact, took the cruise, the craft remained at Area 51.
That seems to be an accepted storyline, and I can't find anything to disagree with that.
I'd like to know where the crew went.
There is no J-Rod, little three-foot miniature alien kind of thing.
Based on all the information of eyewitnesses involved that I've interviewed, including firsthand right at the craft, I would like to know if they went on to Los Alamos or where they went and if they were, because as I read some of these things in the documentation I was finding after doing interviews, it sounded almost like they're us.
They're hybrid or something.
It's like, I don't see them in Battlestar Galactica taking a craft across eons of miles or light years to get here.
So we can speculate.
So all we can do is speculate and we can assume that maybe they are hybrids or maybe this was part of some secret program that somebody had and the people that they had flying these things had to be of a particular short height.
Maybe, I don't know, or maybe they were from off this earth.
We simply don't know.
Yeah, I don't believe for a second that it was a super secret experimental aircraft because they wouldn't send 40 scientists and technicians from all over the place.
What gives it away for you is the response to it.
The response to it is not the kind of response you would give to something like you've just described.
The response was completely of a different order.
Right.
Okay.
Well, Harry, it sounds to me like this is the current book, but there's another book waiting to be written.
Is that so?
I'm looking at releasing a hardbound, I have one sitting here in front of me, in fact, that will go to colleges and universities of higher learning, state library systems in the United States, and probably museums,
and then a paperback trade journal with lots of nuts and bolts stuff and documentation, including things that go back to the incident in Kingman before Roswell, just before Roswell.
It's listing the only thing I've ever seen anywhere of aggressive acts made by UFOs against us.
And that happened.
And they were craft coming from the direction of the underground base.
And they set upon a private aircraft coming in 500 feet off the ground, trying to land at the Kingman Airport in front of everybody.
When was this?
This was before Roswell.
Yeah, 1947.
Gee whizzy.
On the 7th, on the newspaper report of the Roswell story was like about the 8th of July, 1947.
There were all kinds of other reports of UFOs landing, crashing, flying before Roswell.
And Kingman on the 7th of July 1947 had the only reported attack against anything to do with humans, people, and by UFOs, discs flying, later called flying saucers, because some reporters said it looked like a saucer.
They just went on flying saucers.
So all of this indicates that that Kingman area was a focus for something even before what happened in 1953.
So that warrants a lot more research by you or somebody.
Arizona game warden by the name of Gene Holder saw the first UFOs in the area in 1917.
Oh, boy.
Harry, we have a lot more to talk about, I think, next time we do this.
So I wish you luck with all of this.
I know you're going to be doing the rounds of the media.
God, there's a lot to explain.
And, you know, I wish you well.
And thank you very much for talking with me.
Thank you, Howard.
I appreciate it.
And if anybody wants to read about your research, is that website of yours called KingmanUFOCrashes.com?
Have I got that right?
Yes.
Right.
KingmanUFOCrashes.com.
Harry, take care.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Bye-bye, Harry.
Bye-bye.
You've been hearing Harry Drew, and his website is kingmanufocrashes.com If you'd like to go there, and I'll put a link to that website on my website, theunexplained.tv.
Thank you so much for being there for me and for supporting me when things are not quite as good as they might be, for giving me your thoughts, suggestions, and feedback about the show and letting me know who you'd like to hear on it.
I'm working through the list of guest suggestions and will be putting those people both on the online show and on the radio show.
And also, a few people have mentioned this.
Yes, I will be putting highlights from the radio show here online so that you get to hear those.
If you're in parts of the world where you can't access the radio show, then I'm going to make sure that happens for you.
Thank you very much.
Couldn't do this show without you.
When you get in touch, as I always say, please say who you are, where you are, and how you use the show.
More fabulous guests.
Coming soon here on The Unexplained, my name is Howard Hughes.
I am in London.
This has been The Unexplained.
And until we meet next here, please stay safe.
Please stay calm.
And above all, please stay in touch.
Thank you very much.
Take care.
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