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Jan. 15, 2016 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:04:33
Edition 237 - Giants

Did a race of giants once exist in North America? Yes ...say researchers Hugh Newman and JimVieira...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Well, I hope the first couple of weeks of January are treating you well.
Here in the UK, it seems that we're about to descend and slide into a period of freezing cold weather.
You know, I think if you're a regular listener, I've been dreading this, but in the coming week they're saying that we're going to go to about sort of minus three or even lower overnight.
And in some parts of the UK, way up in the far cold north, the newspapers yesterday were talking about minus 13.
But sometimes the newspapers predict things that actually don't come to pass.
But we'll see.
And, you know, we're hardy, we Brits.
We'll just have to tolerate it, won't we?
You know, I keep thinking that spring is about two months away, and everything will improve then.
Thank you for all of the emails.
I'm not going to do any shout-outs on this edition.
I'll do them on the next edition.
But just to say that David Icke, who was the guest on the last show, whose book is literally due out within days, of course, elicits all sorts of polarized opinion.
Now, an old radio boss of mine once told me that if you divide opinion, it means you're doing your job and you're doing it well.
If people don't particularly feel anything about you, then you're bland and you're not succeeding because you're not getting through, you're not making an impact.
Well, on those terms, David Icke has succeeded and the emails I've had range from the David Icke fans who say, fantastic to hear David on your show, people who say, well, I don't agree with 100% of what he says, but I'm glad he's saying it.
And then people who say this man is completely stark, staring mad.
That is the range of opinion that I've had.
But I think that's good.
And I'll keep you posted on David's new book and also about his battle to get admitted to Australia.
He was having some problems getting a visa for his world tour.
I think he was saying that the Australians feared that he might cause, what was the word, instability there.
So we'll see what happens about that.
David goes to many places.
He will be back on this show, by the way, probably later this year, and he'll give us an update on the tour.
So thank you for that.
Thank you for your donations.
They've slowed down a little recently.
I think partly because I just haven't been mentioning them.
But if you can make a donation to help the show carry on, please do.
Even if it's only the cost of a cup of coffee, that would be marvelous for us, because it helps us to continue this work and to make plans for the future.
So go to the website theunexplained.tv, the website designed, created and curated by Adam at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
And you can follow separate links for leaving me an email, maybe guest suggestions, thoughts on the show and the way I'm doing it, or a donation for the show, all at www.theunexplained.tv.
Now, the great Oscar Wilde once said, and I think this is quoting him correctly, that the only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.
So at the moment, I think I'm being mentioned quite a lot on some of the forums around the world, especially in North America.
And it's all to do with my radio hero, who continues to be my radio hero, Art Bell.
Now, the truth of what you may have read is pretty much what you've seen on those various websites.
Yes, I was offered a chance to do something that involved art, which, as you can imagine, having been a fan of the man for 19 years now was enormously exciting for me.
The difficulty I had that I would have had to have self-funded it.
Now, if you know me and my work, and you know the things that I've told you about radio works, a lot of us who do radio simply don't have great reserves of money.
So self-funding anything for me when I'm doing work at the moment during the day that pays my bills and allows me to eat, self-funding another project I just couldn't do.
And, you know, it was something that upset me greatly and hurt a lot that I couldn't do it.
That's not to say that I won't in the future.
You know, to that extent, I'm a starry-eyed optimist, and I do hope that things will develop.
But some of you have said such tremendously nice and kind things about me and my work.
Sometimes I read them if people send them to me, and I think, can they really be talking about me?
So kind of you.
Thank you very much for all of the support.
And believe me, any future projects that will bring this show to a wider audience, I want to get involved in.
But the difficulty has always been that even though I've won a lot of awards on radio in the UK and I've been on shows that a lot of people have heard, you know, one of the shows that I was on was heard by 3 million people per day in London, weekdays, Monday to Friday, at its peak.
So, you know, I did a lot of big things.
Sadly, like a lot of people in radio, I didn't make any money about it.
But, you know, that's not to say that I'm complaining about that, because it was great.
I went all over the world and did wonderful things.
But I just want to try and explain to you, my listener, my friend, and my partner in this venture that I've been involved in for more than a decade now, why it's difficult for me to take on other ventures because simply the money does not allow it.
And, you know, personally, I hate anything that holds me back in life.
And to think that I'm being held back in life by money is sad.
But look, like I say, I'm optimistic.
Anything could happen.
As they used to say at the beginning of Stingray, years and years ago.
So thank you very much for all of your support and your great kindness towards me.
Thank you.
On the show this time round, we're going to get into a topic that you've wanted me to do for several years now.
I keep getting emails saying, why don't you do something about giants?
Well, I had to get the right guests.
And I think I have the right guest on this occasion.
His name is Hugh Newman, an explorer, a megalithomaniac, and author of Earth Grid's The Secret Pattern of Gaia's Sacred Sites.
Now, he is involved in a collaborative project, a new book, the premise of which is that North America had a race of giants up to 18 feet, what's that, five meters in European measurements, five meters tall.
And there are records, the Earth has provided records of this race existing.
The book is out at the moment and is causing quite a stir.
It's called Giants on Record.
So we'll be talking to Hugh Newman and possibly his co-worker on this, his co-author Jim Vieira, who is a stonemason and writer and has collated 1,500, it says here, newspapers and scholarly accounts of giant skeletons being found in North America.
This is really interesting stuff.
And I always used to think that it was the stuff of folklore and couldn't possibly be true.
You know, it was filed in my head along with fairies and pixies and stuff like that.
Worthy of more investigation, but really I'm not sure.
Apparently, giants and their existence is a far more concrete reality than I and perhaps you would ever have imagined.
So let's get to it right now.
Shout outs we'll be doing on the next edition.
Thank you for your emails very much indeed.
And now let's cross to the west of England, to Glastonbury, or as an American friend of mine once used to call it, Glastonbury, and talk to Hugh Newman.
Hugh Newman, thank you very much indeed for coming on the Unexplained.
Okay, thanks very much for having us on, Howard.
Now, a really fascinating topic, and I'm really pleased that by a certain amount of digital artifice here, if that is the right phrase, whatever the phrase might be, we've also got Jim Vieira in the United States, who is your co-worker, as I described him.
I guess co-author, really, yeah?
Yeah, yeah, he's my co-author, Partner in Crime.
We work on various TV shows and a book and another book we're working on.
We're just getting our teeth into that now.
Yeah, the two of you seem to work incredibly well together.
We'll hear in the next hour precisely how well together.
Jim, listen, can you hear me?
Yes, I can, Howard.
Thanks for having me on.
This is fantastic.
It's like a three-way connection.
It's London.
Where are you, Jim?
Whereabouts are you?
I am in Western Massachusetts.
All right.
So it's East Coast USA, meets the West of England, meets the Southeast of England because I'm in London.
This is all good.
So what we're going to do is we're going to lead off with Hugh on this one.
And Hugh, your biography describes you as a megalithomaniac, a word I've never heard until today.
What is that?
A megalithomaniac was a term coined by the late, great John Michelle back in 1982.
He did a book with that title.
And it's really just anyone who's really passionate and slightly obsessed about any megalithic or ancient sites around the world.
And another sort of term similar to that is antiquarian.
It's sort of the lover of old things.
So a megalithomaniac is really someone who has a mania about the megaliths.
And I certainly do have that.
So I presume that you're the kind of person who, as a kid, was transfixed by Stonehenge.
Absolutely, yeah.
I mean, for a very long time, I've been sort of strangely obsessed.
And then I realized I had a serious case of megalithomania after I read John Michel's book.
And since then, we've created a conference in 2006 onwards until currently and tours and the whole project that we call megalithomania.
And the fact of the matter is that a lot of us have come to the conclusion that these structures may not be able to speak to us, but they are indeed on another level telling us a story, all of them.
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, there's multiple different perspectives to look at them from.
Stuff you may not see with the naked eye.
I mean, you have hidden geometries, you have the astronomy, you have things like earth energies, you have the connections between one site and another site, kind of like from a bird's eye view with ley lines and geodesy and kind of connections throughout the landscape.
But you also have a kind of really, you know, a kind of hidden history because a lot of the orthodox view of these sites isn't potentially the correct one.
It may be one view of the site, but they're not looking at all the different perspectives.
And this is where, as megalithomania and part of mine and Jim's research, that's what we try and do.
So we look at the sort of hidden aspects of these sites, of these cultures, get into the mindset and to question who these people were.
And this really led us onto the whole subject of giants, because we realized that there were multiple, you know, thousands really of giant accounts associated with these sites, not just in America or England, but all over the world.
So you do find all these different aspects when approaching these sites, as long as you have an open mind and allow these different perspectives to be part of that.
All right, Hugh, hold that thought.
Jim Vieira in Massachusetts, East Coast, USA.
What's your story?
I would say I organically fell into this study of giants, researching Native American stonework in New England and around the country.
And just as a side effect of looking through all historical documents, I started to find giant skeleton accounts from noted historians and physicians and doctors and archaeologists of the time when the burial mounds were open in the United States.
When the colonists showed up, there were over 100,000 geometric forms and burial mounds and Native American constructions.
And as they were plundered and leveled and unfortunately destroyed by colonists using materials or just farming, these accounts would show up.
It was like this one-time event over 150-year span where you had enormous skeletons being reported, seven foot, eight foot, even nine and ten feet, which seems outrageous.
But we're just, you know, I'm sorry.
Then I teamed up with Hugh at a conference who had also found similar accounts in New England and around the country and in other countries.
And we basically just came together to write the book, to create the TV show we did for the History Channel and to give it another look because it is viewed with along the lines of unicorns and fairies.
And it deserves a better treatment than that.
All these reports by so many respected people.
All right.
So there was an era, presumably a time within the last 50 years or thereabouts, maybe longer, where land was necessary for development.
And I guess that's why some of these burial mounds had to be explored and then leveled.
Is that so?
It's true.
It's more like starting, say, 200 years ago.
But there was a racist impulse, a manifest destiny, orientation of the colonists.
And as a student in the United States and going through high school and college and grade school, I had never found out and learned about the Native American mound-building cultures or the sophistication, their reliance on unbelievable engineering, geometry, spirituality around sacred sites.
And it's kind of a proof that we just haven't been told the right story based on racism because Native Americans had to be portrayed as disorganized and unsophisticated because you don't celebrate and destroy a culture at the same time.
So there was that impulse to destroy the tombs and the sacred places of the previous civilization, which is awful.
Well, I have no idea about this, Jim.
So you're saying that not only did the colonists, and sadly, you know, that's some of our people from this side of the Atlantic, not only did they create the crimes that are well documented and we know about against humanity, but they also committed crimes against history.
Absolutely.
Just like Pizarro and Cortez and the Spanish did in South America, the same thing happened here.
And one of the things is to destroy, to kill the shamans and the medicine men was one of the maneuvers of the colonists, of the armies.
Even it went into the Civil War and after as the colonization spread out to the West Coast, you know, destroy all the buffalo, destroy the food supply, and outlaw the different spiritual aspects that these cultures had, the weather shamanism and stuff like that.
So it was really a destruction of an unbelievable culture.
And then in the historical record and through Native American oral history, we're told this different story of kings and queens and giants of a royal bloodline and all these bizarre things little and that the Native American traditions talk about.
And it's like, wow, what?
We destroy the library of Alexandria by destroying the oral traditions of these people.
So you're saying that these people deliberately set out to erase parts of our history in order to make it appear that the kind of people who were there before they were were just like us.
Whereas in fact, that's not entirely the whole story.
It continues to this day.
You know, we have corporations and oil companies, all kinds of things going on around the planet that denigrate indigenous people and drive them off their land and basically denigrate the spiritual beliefs that they have as a justification.
Like all these poor savage people, they're much better off working at Walmart than living on their land and holding their tradition.
But we both know, Jim, I'm sorry to talk across you here, but we both know that it is very hard to keep a secret in this world.
You know, it's very, very difficult to shut everybody up.
So there will have been people involved in all of this who will have known that giants, which is what you're talking about, existed.
And it would have been impossible to totally keep the lid on that story, wouldn't it?
Absolutely.
And I think one of, you know, we point to the activities of the Smithsonian Institution, say, 100 years ago, and a particularly racist and zealous head of physical anthropology, Dr. Herlichke, is the one who pronounced giants to no more.
Although in their own records, there were multiple accounts.
She's close to 20 accounts of seven foot and tall skeletons.
I think giants got lumped in with this lost civilization theory because of what we're talking about.
It's just like you don't want to portray Native civilizations in a positive light, in a mysterious light.
But like you said, it came through in all these records, these accounts, these oral traditions.
So they couldn't kill off the idea.
And many Native Americans to this day have the same traditions of giant people, kind of leaders, and also a cannibalistic, malevolent enemy that their forefathers battled with back until the last ice age.
It's a really fascinating story.
It is a fascinating story.
And Hugh in the UK, you start to get a sense of a hidden history here.
How do you begin to stitch it together?
Well, Jim and colleagues of ours, Mike Awes, Ross Hamilton and others, collated over a thousand reports and accounts from newspapers, oral histories, town and county histories, Smithsonian records, academic records and so forth, and even diaries of doctors and surgeons and things like this who actually discovered these.
And there's so much data that you get to a point with it where you just cannot help but realize there's something real going on here.
There's no way all these people over a 150 or more year period from opposite ends of the country when there was no way to communicate back then were coming up with the same stories describing the same types of skeletons, the double rows of teeth, the powerful jaws and all these different things.
And especially interesting, as Jim mentioned, is the fact that the Smithsonian themselves found accounts and actually, sorry, found skeletons and described them in their official scientific annual reports.
So it's a real story here that's been kind of gently suppressed, gently quietened by the Smithsonian and by the sceptics and by other people.
But there really is, you know, to me, this is a lost chapter in human history, which has been, you know, carefully and quietly kind of brushed under the carpet.
And so we just got so compelled by it that no one was really talking about it that we pushed to get this TV show, which Jim sort of manifested with the history channel and decided we had to do a book about it.
And this is, this is how Giants on Record came about.
The Smithsonian is obviously taking the brunt of your ire here.
I can hear that in the things that both of you have said.
You know, we haven't got them to speak for themselves.
But when you have confronted them about this, what have they said to you?
Not much, to be honest with you.
I mean, nowadays, the only people you can really get access to are people who work kind of at the Smithsonian on the desk and things like that, people who answer the phone in the offices.
I've challenged them.
I've been to the Smithsonian myself a couple of years ago and actually talked to them about what was going on.
Why are all these accounts?
Where are the skeletons and so forth?
And it's just like no one knows anything.
It's all been quietly deleted.
One of the things you hint at is that there are missing exhibits.
From what I saw, there are very few exhibits.
You have to find access and request access.
The only thing they've got there is a 6'3 Native American skeleton in their records.
And that's it.
Even though we know they collected hundreds, if not thousands, of skeletons across the country over like a 60 to 80 year period.
And so there's a lot has gone missing.
And that is one of the problems that we have with the Smithsonian.
All right, Jim, from your point of view then, here you have this wrong that you want to write.
How do you begin to do that?
And can I just say one thing to you, that my voice is coming back to me when I'm talking to Hugh and when I'm talking to you.
So if it is possible to mute your loudspeaker on your end of it, Jim, that would be great.
But, you know, I was asking you, how is it possible to start to right that wrong?
Well, I think one thing is to engage professionals and to deal with open-minded skeptics, reasonable people, and try to get a serious look at this.
Because it's not just Native American.
I'm sorry, it's not just historical records.
It's all the accounts of all the famous early explorers like John Smith, Sir Francis Drake, Magellan, DeSoto, Coronado.
They all encountered six and a half, seven foot and taller people, Native people, sometimes eight foot tall in Patagonia and Tuscaloosa and Alabama.
And if I was to look at the works, the writings of Sir Francis Drake, who was one of our exploring heroes, would I find references to these things?
Yes, in the book, we have an early explorers chapter that covers a lot of those accounts.
Really fabulous accounts of seven and eight and nine foot tall tribal leaders.
That seems outrageous, but that's what they reported.
And it wasn't, oh, the Spanish were 5-4 and the Natives were 5'7.
They specifically talk about the largest native chief on his knees towered over our largest men and things like that.
And then there are other, you know, there are giant artifacts.
I have a 30-pound axe on my desk upstairs, a stone axe.
There are giant implements.
There are accounts from mystics and secret societies like Edgar Casey, Rudolph Steiner, the Rosicrucians and Freemasons who all talk about giants as a scientific fact.
There's all this corroborative proof.
It's a really strange thing.
And then you have all the oral traditions of Native Americans.
So it's not just some dusty accounts in the bin of history.
It is this wide holistic view.
And the way you get it done is you just basically make your case, you know, don't try to like prove, prove, prove it.
Like you have to believe.
It's more we try to make an objective, reasonable case.
We always engage professionals in our research and on our shows and let people decide.
And then people come out of the woodwork and like, oh, I have this skull in my barn or I saw this.
And you gather more data.
And it's a part of, it's in the mindset of humans for a reason.
And I don't know why.
And I don't know the full story, but we feel compelled to research it.
For as long as there's been science, though, Jim, most scientists, and I don't really want to be pitching in and naming names of people who might be alive now, but all scientists want to further human knowledge.
And it really, it's a shocking thing to hear claims that there would have been people of science who have wanted to suppress something that is so remarkable.
I would say it's more of a, you know, it's not a conspiracy where there's a boardroom of people and we're going to do this.
It's more just human nature and the conservative nature of the sciences and the academic filtration that they're going to be.
So this material does not fit the paradigm.
Not at all, because it goes against evolution.
And I'll say, you know, neither of us have any religious in the game.
It's not about being a creationist or claiming the world is 4,000 years old.
It's simply let the data speak for itself.
And the honest truth is that you just have these many people entrenched in the sciences.
And our science is not like the science of the ancients.
There is no spirit in it.
It is Cartesian.
It's strictly show-me, you know, empirical evidence.
But that's not the full story.
There are other realities that science doesn't understand.
And Hugh and I both believe that the megalithic cultures in the past used a blend of science and spirituality to create these sites.
And we just have a science that is lacking.
And it's as simple as that.
You know, when you go to the doctor and he offers you seven different medications, do you say, oh, that guy's in on a vast conspiracy?
He isn't personally, but he's an arm of the pharmaceutical company, not a doctor anymore.
And if I told you I have a device to put in my gas tank that will get 700 miles to the gallon, you know, this electric device, I'd end up dead in a dumpster.
You know, it's just, are these vast conspiracies or is it just human nature, you know?
Okay.
Now, Hugh, in the UK, both of us probably in our school years, we probably had to do a bit of geology.
I don't know if you did, Hugh.
I did.
And they send you out to various far-flung places with a little rock hammer and you have to try and find trilobites and crinoids and fossil evidence of the ancient past.
How come there isn't more evidence of giants around the world, easily uncoverable like those crinoids and trilobites?
How come that there isn't more evidence of giant species?
Well, there is evidence of that, actually.
But more evidence, as common evidence as that of your trilobites, crinoids, and dinosaurs.
Yeah, no, that's a good question.
I mean, we're looking at quite a strange thing for people to report on here.
There have been accounts of people discovering things like this, discovering giant teeth, giant bones and other things.
And they've kind of been partly ridiculed because it doesn't fit in with evolution, doesn't fit in with the existing paradigm.
But we do know, for instance, there are some pockets around the world where very large skeleton bones and jaws and teeth have been found.
I'll give you a couple of quick examples.
In Siberia, in the Denisovan caves, they found a couple of Denisovan teeth and a finger bone, which were incredibly robust.
And the teeth were described as being almost twice as large as a standard human tooth, so much so they thought it was a bear tooth.
And these are possibly 40,000 years old, possibly older now.
There's more research has just been coming out about this.
An early ancestor of these Denisovans is a Homo hydropigensis in South Africa.
They're also in Europe and Germany and other places as well.
And these are routinely found to be over seven feet tall.
But some more research was carried out by our colleague Michael Tellinger, who went to a university where one of these fossilized bones was on display and found, again, with Professor Francis Thackeray, an anthropologist, that it was twice the size of an average modern human.
So we're looking probably nine to 11 feet tall, something like this.
So we know there are bones.
We know there are pockets of giants around the world.
A jawbone was also found off the coast of Taiwan when some fishermen brought it up in their nets.
And this was about a third larger than normal.
It was a human jaw.
And these were known, this was thought to have been about an eight or nine foot tall person.
Also in the Americas and in Europe, we have the chromagnon, the early form of human, which were often seven feet tall.
And they had very powerful jaws and robust skulls, square eyes and things like this.
So did the giants parallel our development or do we intermingle at points?
Both.
I think there's both going on because when you're looking at the Denisovans, you're looking at they were breeding with potentially Cro-Magnon, you know, modern humans, the early form of modern humans, Neanderthals, and an unknown humanoid called a hominid called species X, which hasn't actually been given a name yet.
But we do know, but there are some extremely early examples of modern style, European style human skeletons and skulls found in North America, which really are shaking the foundations of the origin of humans on Earth.
Because we obviously have the Out of Africa theory.
This is one that's sort of stuck now.
Everyone talks, suggests that.
But there's some serious anthropologists and archaeologists and people who've done DNA research who realize now that there could have been pockets around the world where humans came out of.
And one of the places they're talking about is in America.
And so this fits in with the idea of the Native American creation myths.
Many of their stories talk about emerging and being created on the landmass that we know today as North America and Central and South America.
There's examples in Brazil and Mexico and other places.
We do cover this in the book, in the chapter, Origins of the Tall Ones.
Tall Ones is like the traditional name of these giants.
But, you know, the fact is, we do find evidence of giants all around the world.
More bones are being discovered.
Jim's uncovered 500 worldwide accounts.
I've found a few myself.
In England, I mean, literally every country in the world, you can find them.
But these are kind of, because they don't fit in with the current theories, they just don't really get published.
So you have to kind of dig deep to find the information.
And unfortunately, in America, as Jim, I think, mentioned earlier, we have the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, which is the NAGPRA Act, came in in 1990, where it's actually illegal to actually even photograph or have a bone or skeleton of any Native American ancestry in your possession.
And so all the giant, there were giant skeletons and skulls and teeth and bones on display all over America.
And they all got taken away from 1990 onwards because of this act.
So we're not left with anything to go on.
We just have to go on the photos, the diaries, the people who discovered them and the measurements.
But thank God we have the Smithsonian accounts to kind of put something for us.
We know there was something going on.
We know there were giants.
There's no way there could be simply that many accounts.
And the fact that it's a worldwide phenomenon really does paint an unusual picture of history on Earth.
Just a quick question for you, Hugh, and then I'll move back to Jim in the US.
If they were so big and powerful, and this is a really, you might think this is a dumb question, but this is my best shot.
If they were so big and powerful, how come they're not around now?
That is a good question, yes.
I mean, there are still giants, still do exist, usually with acromegaly or gigantism and things like this.
But there are people who are just extremely tall.
There are certain races which are taller than others around the world.
And do you think those people who are born today abnormally tall perhaps have an echo of giants within their DNA?
I think that is true.
I think that's a very good point because we do find that the Denisovan, certain people around the world in North America as well, have Denisovan DNA.
We also know that even in the Americas, that's where we've been focused for the research for this book, we have haplogroup X, which is a European and Middle Eastern strain.
And so we do find examples.
We know there are migrations around the world.
But coming back to your question, in North America, it is quite well known now through the oral histories and the traditions and the stories of the Native Americans that they selectively bred and that the giant were kind of part of an elite throughout different tribes and different areas of the country.
But you have this unusual strain of giants, which were almost like these, as Jim mentioned, these cannibalistic, red-haired, terrorizing beasts who are just threatening and even eating the local Native Americans.
So where they come from, we don't know.
But we think the more we've been, we're looking further into this, and we're going to go more deeply into this in our next book, which covers giants all around the world.
But we think there is a kind of missing, there's like a missing humanoid that's not been talked about enough.
Now, isn't that interesting, Jim, in the U.S.?
Does any of this, and please don't shoot me down in too many flames for asking this, but does any of this tie into, quote, Bigfoot, unquote?
Well, I would say that Bigfoot, you know, the idea of Bigfoot, what's the most compelling evidence for it is that you have oral traditions all around the planet that speak of it.
Now, if you landed on this planet and talked to a comparative mythologist and try to figure out, okay, what's the history of this planet?
You'd be astonished to learn that the oral traditions, the comparative mythology tells a completely different story.
they talk about, you know, star beings, giants, little people, a hairy is around the woods, a lost continent, an ancient cataclysm, a flood.
And why, if our past was like science tells us, you know, why would all these oral traditions be so different than what we're told?
It's a really strange thing.
You know, as far as, you know, we're talking about human burial mounds, humans and man-made mounds, kind of not that kind of creature that other people research.
It does open the door for strangeness.
And you're making a good point, like, where are all the bones?
You know, I could tell you, like, there are so many examples.
I'll take Miami'sburg, 1897.
They find this eight, one and a half inch skeleton in a gravel pit.
It's put on display.
It is analyzed by scientists around the country, including the head of prehistoric anthropology, Thomas Wilson, at the Smithsonian.
He verifies it.
It is listed as amongst the known and verified giants of human history at eight foot, one and a quarter inch.
And then there's no more mention of it.
There's even a hand-drawn picture of it we have in our book.
And then you have these accounts all around the country.
They're on display.
The town is a buzz.
The FEMA measured 20 and 8 inches, blah, blah, blah.
Circumference of the skull.
It's not like the bones got up and moved around.
It is specific measurements by respected people over and over again.
The largest person in the town fit the jawbone over his face.
And then you say, and then the skeptic sits back and says, oh, where are the bones?
And I'm like, but you're not really, what's your version of it?
There was a mass delusion that took Bolide for no perceived gain in a specific way that couldn't have been known about collectively.
It just, you know what I mean?
It's such a conundrum and it's a frustration.
And you and I are leaving an open mind and science will give us our answers.
And maybe it will come from Heidelbergensis and Denise-Vinns or Species X or something like that.
Probably not in the United States.
But if there is truth to this matter, then there will be, you know, bones brought forth.
And I'll also say that there is a thought that reality is holographic and we collectively obfuscate the truth from ourselves.
And we all share a global brain, if you will.
And we're a species with amnesia, as Graham Hancock talks about.
There is all this evidence for a global flood.
And let's see, you know, as the mind of humanity awakens, maybe these things will come forward and be understood better.
So do you think that your theories, your research meshes nicely with Graham Hancock's idea that there was some great cataclysmic event and perhaps that is what did for the giants?
Absolutely.
And a lot of the native traditions talk about the giant people existing previous to the ice age or, you know, before 12,000 years ago with the mega fauna, the mega flora.
And you look all around, especially in the United States, the mass and mammoths weren't hunted out of existence.
Everything in the cataclysm went dark at one point and humans, hunter-gatherers kind of came back.
And yeah, Graham talks about the civilizers showing up all around the world.
In fact, Hugh and our buddy Andrew Collins, along with Graham, have studied Gobekli Tepe, the oldest temple site in human history, probably more than anybody else besides the German archaeological team.
So we're all on the same page with this idea that the oral traditions of indigenous people all around the planet contain truth.
And I think Graham is taught, you know, he's fabulous, and I think he's dead on.
And he's been vindicated by the finding of Gobekli Tepe.
And now further evidence in Indonesia may suggest an older temple.
But yes, I'm a big fan of Graham, and I think he's.
Okay, we just lost the last syllable there.
I think there's just a small glitch on your wireless connection, but we understand the gist of what you were saying, Jim.
Just one other point before I come back to you.
It seems to me, and I wonder if you've thought about this, I'm sure you have, that as global warming, if you buy into that concept or whatever it might be, causes ice to recede and to melt, do you think that in places like the far north of Canada, maybe the North Pole, we will start to see evidence being uncovered?
Very good point.
Yes, I think under the oceans, under existing known ancient sacred sites and in the frozen areas on the planet are all three places that probably contain evidence of a lost civilization, if you will, of an advanced civilization and not spaceships.
When you talk Atlantis, for instance, the information about it from Plato and others is a civilization that had a core of spirituality that built megalithic temples and not necessarily had flying machines and toasters, but an advanced civilization, just like Gobekoli Tepe shows, a sophisticated, organized group of people.
And I think, you know, the oceans are hardly explored.
There are thoughts that in Antarctica, underneath the ice, there would be remains of an advanced civilization.
And absolutely, I think we have enough evidence now pointing to like Gobekoi Tepe, like a 12,000-year-old, sophisticated, enormous megalithic site.
And the oldest enclosures are the most sophisticated.
And the late archaeologist Klaus Schmitz basically said, we're waiting for even older closures to enclosures, to show us the progression, the evolution with a really rudimentary one and getting this glorious end result.
No, they'll never find that, I don't think.
Just like John Anthony West says about Egypt, you have this fully formed, amazing civilization that had all the sophistication that actually got worse.
So did they really invent agriculture and megalithic building, these hunter-gatherers in the Anatolia region in Turkey 12,000 years ago?
Or did they receive a legacy from the survivors of a cataclysmic event, just like all the oral traditions?
All right, let's get back to Hugh.
Hugh, if I was to write you a great big check now with, I don't know, assuming I won Britain's national lottery last night, and I was able to write you a check for a couple of million pounds, maybe $4 million thereabouts, and I invited You to go and explore, where would you look first?
I would go to Sonora in Mexico.
There's an area there where Jim has been researching for quite a long time.
He actually met up with a son of the original explorer who was Paxon Hayes.
He was actually part of the Smithsonian as one of their occasional excursions out of North America.
But his son Carlos Hayes now lives near the border.
And there's, as Jim is very into this whole Sonora thing, but I'll just quickly summarize it.
There's there was like a lost race of giants found in the Sonora Desert.
There was a city of the giants was discovered with all these constructions.
And this has never been fully investigated since the 1930s.
That was the last time it was properly investigated.
The problem is it's a major sort of drug cartel area and is extremely dangerous to go there.
So I don't know how the money would help with that.
Well, you might have to line the right pockets.
That could be correct.
Yes.
But also what was found there, which also fascinates me, and it could also do with some money to back up the research is the elongated skull phenomenon because a whole bunch of these skulls, very elongated, like cone heads, were found in very close to the area of where the giants were discovered in that part of Mexico.
Now, also, if I had that amount of money, there would be, we would just go crazy with research because there's a whole world to explore when looking at these giants.
There's some places like on Tonga in South Pacific, which we know people who may have access to certain skeletons, but we know they're often cursed.
So we have to kind of watch ourselves there.
We actually have a whole chapter called Curse of the Giant, Curse of the Giant Hunters, where people who've investigated the wrong ones don't come off best from it.
There's places in Hawaii we know about.
There's people who've given us clues, actually in North America, saying there's actual skeletons and skulls.
So we would like to just to kind of find some real solid proof.
I mean, and any way any funding that could assist with that would be most beneficial, obviously.
So anyone out there who'd like to give us a couple of million, we are open to that.
All right, seriously, have you tried to approach any serious scientific institution or university, whatever?
And have you put to them the thought that they might want to fund you?
Not really for funding.
We have approached some.
We did that especially for the TV show.
We spoke to various people.
We spoke to Shara Bailey, who's a New York University, a dental anthropologist.
We were discussing double rows of teeth with her and trying to get her interested in the subject.
And we feature her in the book as well.
And she was part of the TV show.
And she's one of the people now who is looking at the origins of humans actually coming out of America as well as Africa.
There's other people we talked to, some archaeologists and anthropologists.
We were digging a site near where Jim lives, hoping to find some evidence there.
But there's generally, it's one of those subjects.
In North America, it's tough.
Like I said, the NAGPRA thing.
So we're looking at, we're sort of spreading out around the world a little bit to see if we can find any other bits of evidence and other archaeological teams or academics who may be interested.
And because of the TV show and now the book and radio shows like this, thank you, Howard, we're reaching a wider audience.
And we really feel this needs to be taken seriously by academia, by archaeologists, by anthropologists, by historians, because it's not been taken seriously.
And it's been brushed under the carpet and kind of smirked upon by various authorities.
And we just feel it's time now to kind of, you know, everyone wants to know the truth about human history, whatever that might be.
And I think these giant skeletons are part of that.
And it's our right as human beings to explore that, preferably with academic backup.
I wrote one of my simpleton's questions down at the beginning of all of this about 25 minutes ago.
And I'm going to read it back to you now, if I can read it on this piece of paper here.
Double rows of teeth that you've referred to about three times now.
Why exactly would a creature need a double row of teeth?
That's another good question.
Now, this is one of the strange anomalies.
It's something that Jim and I have been very interested in for quite a long time now.
But we found multiple accounts.
We have a whole chapter on it in the book, just called Double Rows of Teeth.
And many of these giants have descriptions of double rows of teeth.
More than one set of teeth.
Often there's one account from Florida with three rows of teeth.
You have supernumerary teeth, but you just have extra teeth.
And we spoke to Shara Bailey about this, the dental anthropologist, and she found it very unusual.
She hasn't seen any directly herself.
She's seen people with extra teeth and an extra number of teeth along the same row.
But we found too many accounts, too many descriptions to dismiss this.
She said perhaps it's because it's like a genetic throwback.
We know that there was a tribe of Native Americans who are very tall around the Great Lakes area and 6,000 years ago they had double rows of teeth.
We know that we found evidence potentially in other parts of the world, even from the Middle East, where there's descriptions even in the Bible of people double rows of teeth.
And so we do find bits and pieces of evidence that suggest it could be a genetic throwback.
She also suggested it could be to do with just the sheer size.
When a healthy, normal human reaches a certain size, it kind of triggers something to allow more teeth to grow in the mouth because there's space there for it to do so.
It's just like part of nature.
And we do get it today.
It does happen today where we have extra teeth, torontidism and other things like this.
People do, and they haven't removed very early.
I met a woman at a conference recently, and her son was seven foot tall.
He died early, unfortunately, but her son was seven foot tall and he had double rows of teeth.
And she was just telling me, matter of fact, she found it really odd that when she picked up my book and I was sitting there at this conference, we were talking about it.
And I've had many, many people approach us since we did the TV show who said they had double rows of teeth or they know someone who did.
So it's a very real phenomenon.
It's very sad that this particular young man died young, but there must have been something within his DNA that connected back to something.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I think this is where the Genetic throwbacks come in, and this is something that I believe when you have these extra teeth.
This was revered by the elites, sort of the elite royalty, really, of the Native Americans.
I wonder if some of it's to do with power because we have incisors and molars, don't we?
And they do different things.
So it doesn't have to be too big a stretch to assume that if you have two or three rows of teeth, well, those teeth are to do different things.
And if you're trying to survive in a very harsh environment, then you would need a different kind of teeth to cut things.
You know, there would be certain kinds of meat or bone that you'd have to get through.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, especially if you're a cannibal, yes, that would be very handy.
But one other thing is that one of the strange things we keep coming across is the fact that many of the teeth in the skulls, when they're discovered, are in perfect condition, perfect enamel.
They're perfectly in place.
They're not sticking out in the wrong place.
And they're in an incredible condition, often with two rows of them.
So how did that happen?
I mean, that's impossible for us to achieve today.
So how did they?
Yeah, so this is one of the...
We look at that.
We even find a very small number of accounts with horned skulls, which is one of my subjects.
Jim's not so keen on it.
And also very large jaws, what Dondra Gu called the Adena jaw, very powerful, large jaws, very high cheekbones, very powerful, square kind of skulls found, especially with the Adena, one of the earlier mound cultures in North America.
We also have incredibly large skulls, often with 36 to 40 inch circumference, which is twice the size of our skulls.
And that's not gigantism, it's not agromegaly, this is like real, this is the size of the skull.
And so we do find many anomalies with these giants.
And this is why it needs further research.
This is why we want to get access to some bones, get some DNA tests done, and get some serious backing behind it to put this out there into the wider world.
And we believe we arose from primitive ape-like creatures and moved forward through time.
How advanced are you with understanding the timeline of the giants?
How did they arise?
That's another good question.
Yes, but we talk about this in the origins of the tall ones in the final chapter of the book.
And there's different theories.
We cover different authors' theories, people we kind of know, we respect, Ross Hamilton and others.
And there's different, it's really, really challenging to try and work that one out.
But the fact is, we know they existed going back at least 3,000 years.
There's evidence of that now.
We know that taller than average people, six foot or slightly upwards, existed around the Great Lakes five or so thousand years ago.
These often the double rows of teeth.
When you start looking into the oral histories and the native traditions of North America, then we find examples.
And this is thanks to the brilliant Vine De Lauria Jr. who collected many of these accounts from native elders before they died.
I mean, he's got accounts of the megafauna, which were around 12,000 or so years ago, interacting with giants, who must have been like 10 or 12 feet tall.
And it was quite well known back then, apparently, according to the oral tradition, that there were giants all across America who existed.
And there's multiple accounts he's put together.
One of them is brilliant.
He actually talks about these giants would herd mammoths like we herd cattle.
So that would be quite a task.
And you have to be quite large or tall to deal with that.
So the timelines, we're piecing it together slowly, but the problem is that there's not been much DNA research done in America.
We don't have any bones.
We don't have any bones we can test.
So it becomes like a kind of dead end.
We have to kind of speculate and piece it together ourselves.
But to make progress, you have to do both of those things, don't you?
Absolutely.
I mean, we've done the best we can in the book with what we've got.
And we talked to a lot of people, a lot of experts and people who know their stuff, anthropologists, archaeologists, historians, alternative researchers.
And we think we've pieced together something that is compelling and will give people a kind of slice of what was really going on, going back at least, you know, 10,000 to 15,000 years.
Jim, in the US, in my radio career, I've been lucky enough to meet Indigenous Native people in Australia and in Africa.
And I found in both cases tremendous calmness and wisdom, long-term wisdom that I was lucky enough to be able to drink in from these people.
Presumably you have talked your research through with Native people in the US.
And if you have, what have they said to you?
Yeah, yeah, that's a good perception, a steadiness and a long-term wisdom, something our society, our anxious and distracted society, does not possess.
And I think a lot of people seek spiritual solutions to their life and often look to the indigenous people in the particular country they live in.
Basically, I received the oral traditions of Native peoples from different tribes that said the same thing.
In fact, it was funny that many of the Native people I spoke to kept talking about the little people over and over again.
They said, have you looked in the other direction?
Vine Delauri, the Lakota elder that Hugh spoke of, he organized a conference, I think at Washington State a few years back, where he gathered all these Native elders to share the wisdom about giants.
And he said, even more than that strange topic, all the elders talked about the traditions of these little people, sometimes portrayed as malevolent.
And the tribes when Lewis and Clark went out to South Dakota would not go to Spirit Mountain because of these little people that actually, you know, would shoot poison darts.
It's the strangest thing.
And Lewis and Clark went to the top of Spirit Mountain with, I believe, like 18 armed soldiers because they were so fearful and to check out the story.
And then we have the hobbit showing up in Indonesia, right, in 2002, 2003, these three and a half foot tall people who lived from 100,000 years ago up until 12,000 years ago, which is an odd date because they disappeared at the time horizon of this cataclysmic event.
So, native people telling this, you know, essentially the same story.
To reach back to your story, your question about bones and many of these, you know, it's not a renewable resource.
And many of these bones were so ancient that they crumbled to dust when they were exposed to the air over and over again, so many times in Smithsonian accounts.
Alton, Illinois, 1873, numerous enormous skulls, one measured at 36 inches in circumference, all crumbled to dust.
So you have this problem of you're not talking about stone artifacts here.
There aren't a lot of human remains often left over and over again after years and years of being buried.
So it is, it's a frustrating thing, but I would say when you're looking at the origins of the tall ones, you're looking past 10,000 years ago.
If you believe the mystics and the secret societies and Madame Blavatsky and Edgar Casey, they all talk about giants and little people being part of the population of Atlantis.
I know it sounds strange, but they're all saying that independently of each other.
And then you have little people and giants as part of oral traditions around the planet.
So we had a major cataclysm 12,000 years ago that wiped out most life on the planet.
That is being shown through the Younger Dryas Impact and Graham Hancock's work and Firestone and West and all these geologists and paleoclimatologists.
And you lost that link to the past where giants and little people existed, as strange as it may sound, but you have a royal bloodline that existed in the Native Americans and other people of these giant, you know, revered medicine men and wizards.
That could be the story we're looking at here.
So you're trying to change perceptions.
You're trying to alter mindsets and you're trying to get the establishment and ordinary people to understand, if they will, that Homo sapiens are not the only ones at this party that we've been holding on planet Earth for as long as we've been around.
Absolutely.
You know, where's the missing link?
You know, we've been waiting for so long for the missing link to show up.
Was there genetic intervention?
You know, what is going on?
Are we just hairless apes or is this something else?
Why are people elongating their skulls in disparate cultures all around the planet for thousands of years?
Well, because there were civilizations, weren't there, that actually did that to skulls because it was seen to be something revered.
No, no, every, you can't believe all around the planet, Peru, France, the Americas, the Adena people, their royal class of, you know, seven foot and tall, you know, giants, basically, elongated their skulls.
And it's like, wow, you know, they had no contact with, you know, these other countries.
How did they know that this was a thing to do, essentially?
So, yeah, we're just trying to ask questions and engage a holistic view.
Well, here's a crazy thought, and it may not be quite that crazy.
If, and I know you don't necessarily buy into the idea of sort of gods and spacemen and extraterrestrials and all the rest of it, but if there were creatures that came to us from somewhere else and their heads looked like that, it would be seen to be pretty cool, wouldn't it, if you could make your head look like theirs?
That's not so far-fetched.
You know, I've read through enough redacted State Department documents and, you know, to realize that there is something going on with extraterrestrial life.
And it's even more pathetic than saying the world is flat, the earth is flat, than to say there is no life out there.
I will not attribute megalithic building sites to aliens, but I will say that there is something to the story, and it may have to do with some distant interaction with some other beings.
And why all this, you know, you talk about the little people and malevolent nature of them.
Maybe they're talking about some gray alien or something.
I mean, I'm not going to really disparage anyone to try to look into these different controversial topics.
Well, it just seems to me that, Jim, you've opened both of you.
You've opened a can of worms here.
You've opened, I don't know, some great deep archive of information.
The book is written.
You're at this stage.
My worry for both of you, and Jim, maybe you want to take this one up, is what do you do next?
You know, I think we have, you and I both have a reverence for, you know, cultures in the past who had their act together.
And I think a lot of people get into this research, you know, like Andrew Collins, Graham Hancock, Brian Forrester.
I think they have a lot of humanity in them and they just want to see a different world.
And they look at cultures in the past and they used spiritual principles, if you will, sacred geometry to create tools of enlightenment around the planet.
And that's what all these sites represent.
It could be, you know, you're at a site in Mexico and it was built in 400 AD, but they used, you know, it may not be 10,000 years old, but they use these principles for a particular reason.
But then there's another story of ancient sites like Gobeclitepe or other ones that might be very, very old, vastly old.
And we basically are asking questions about why these sites were built, what their purpose was.
And I think humans kind of crave a desire to work collectively for some greater goal.
And instead of being all disjointed in a dehumanizing death machine that just grinds out consumer garbage, you know, we want a different way of life.
So, you know, I spend my time building, rebuilding old walls, building stone towers, building stone circles out here in Massachusetts.
And because that's what I love to do and I like to share that type of thing and to, you know, build transducers of energy, if you will.
And that's what I believe, like Stonehenge, these old sites were.
That's why there's such a fascination.
So there's that aspect.
And then there's an aspect of further antiquity.
And if we can pin down an advanced civilization that existed, you know, 12,000, 14, 16,000 years ago, it will open people's minds to a greater possibility for humanity.
And will completely, utterly, and totally rewrite the history books.
That's the kind of shock we need to our system right now.
What else is going to do it?
All these, you know, there's these terrible events and all this nonsense in the world, everybody distracted with social media.
But I think some unifying events, some finding of ancient records that are absolutely stunning or some alien intelligence, I mean, I really think that's what people are hanging their hat on because what is going to coalesce humans to look at what the hell is going on in a different way?
I totally agree.
Hugh, in the UK, the book is written.
It's out there for people to see.
We've had some nice reviews.
Are you going back to the US?
Are you going to do more of this?
Yes, we have more research on the cards.
We've been promoting the book in America and in England, and we're going to be doing a bit more of that.
Jim, obviously, I visit Jim in New England quite a bit, and we sort of do our research from there.
I've recently been down in the south, in Arkansas, Oklahoma, Alabama area, looking at things around there, checking out mound sites, historical societies and museums, and we've got some leads on, well, particularly this one jawbone at a certain site.
So, yeah, we're constantly researching.
That never ends.
And yeah, but the majority, I mean, we cover, I mean, although we're going to continue the research, we've put a lot into the book already, the book Giants on Record.
We've got over 250 accounts in there.
We have a thousand at least we could have put in there and made a book that would be impossible to carry.
But we decided to kind of trim it down a bit and actually do some writing with it.
But yeah, we're looking around the world a bit more now.
We want to kind of, I'm looking around England.
Jim's, we're making contact with people.
We've got some leads in Canada, in America, Mexico, places like this.
So yeah, we're going to keep moving forward with that.
And of course, Glastonbury, where you are, is just along the road from Stonehenge.
But the problem is that Stonehenge is now an official archaeological site and it's very hard for researchers to get near the place, isn't it?
That is true.
Yeah, but we have, I mean, Jim and I have uncovered, mainly Jim has uncovered a few accounts from Stonehenge, from the mounds around the area where giant skeletons came from.
So we've got a few bits and pieces about that.
Plus, the earliest depiction of Stonehenge shows Merlin with a giant whose giant is lifting one of the lintels into place.
And there's the ancient tradition from the History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmouth, who talks about giants being involved in the construction or movement of the stones.
Which would help to explain, wouldn't it, the scale of Stonehenge, the size of it.
Why did it have to be that big?
That is true.
And I think that this applies all around the world.
This applies to different countries.
We found little pieces of evidence that these giant people actually did build these sites.
It's something we're going to be tackling more thoroughly in our next book.
You know, we Brits, aren't we, Hugh?
We're quite polite people, I think, on the whole.
You know, possibly less direct than my American friends.
I've got to ask you, though, if you don't mind me asking, how do you pay for this research?
Wing on a prayer mainly.
But we just, I mean, I run tours.
We do megalithomania.
We run tours around the world.
We go to Quebecli Tepe with people like Andrew Collins and Graham Hancock.
We take people to Mexico and Peru and places like that.
And what that does, even though it doesn't make so much money, but you can actually get to places and enable us to go to these places and research there because the tour pays for it.
And so this is how we kind of fund it.
But if anyone would like to give us a couple of million, we will take it and we will use it wisely.
But basically, we fund ourselves.
Jim is a very hard-working stonemason.
And we both do lectures anywhere we can all around the world at conferences and things like this.
If anyone would like to book us, we're very happy to do that.
And yeah, we just do whatever we can to get this research out there.
And we fund ourselves fundamentally.
But we'd love it if an institution would back us because that would enable it.
And also the TV shows really helped us, the Search for the Lost Giants TV show that enabled us to do certain things.
And we have another one in the pipeline as well we're currently working on.
Right.
Well, it seems to me that you need to get the book for starters under the noses of some important people.
Good luck with that.
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much.
And Jim in the U.S., thank you very much for your time, Jim.
You know, the pair of you are doing some really good work.
So please, as we say here, don't be a stranger.
I would like to talk to both of you again.
Jim, thank you.
Thank you, Howard.
Greatly appreciated.
Great questions.
You know, very enjoyable.
And I appreciate your time.
And yes, we'll come on again.
No, I think you both rock.
And Hugh, thank you very much indeed.
And this three-way transatlantic link up worked really nicely.
Thank you very much to both of you.
Good luck and keep in touch.
No problem.
Thanks a lot, Howard.
All right.
Be well.
Definitely food for thought.
On the topic of giants in North America.
What an amazing thought.
And like I said at the top of this program, I thought that giants as a topic was to be filed with pixies and fairies and things like that.
Probably more in the realm of folklore, but maybe not so.
If you want to know more about Hugh Newman and Jim Vieira and their work and the book Giants on Record, I'll put a link to it all on my website, theunexplained.tv.
The website designed, created, and owned by Adam Cornwell from Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
More great guests coming soon here on The Unexplained.
Thank you very much for keeping the faith with me.
If you want to get in touch with me, go to the website theunexplained.tv and please, if you possibly can, do make a donation to the unexplained to allow it to continue.
So until next we meet here on the unexplained, I'm Howard Hughes.
I am in London.
Please stay safe, stay calm, and please stay in touch.
Thank you.
Take care.
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