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Aug. 23, 2015 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:05:42
Edition 218 - The Mojave Incident

American author Ron Felber's unique research into a chilling and amazing "alien abduction"case in 1989...

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Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Many thanks if you've emailed or sent me a guest suggestion, whatever, through the website, theunexplained.tv recently.
I've been through all of your emails.
We're going to have a lot of shout-outs on this edition.
I said I'd do it, and here's where we do.
So strap yourself in for those.
The website designed, by the way, by Adam Cornwell, a creative hotspot in Liverpool.
If you want to go to the website, leave a donation and thank you if you have recently, or send a comment about the show or a guest suggestion, just go now to www.theunexplained.tv.
It's all there for you.
Let's get down to those many, many shout-outs now.
I've just got two closely typed pages of them.
Before we get to the guest on this edition, we're going to talk about something called the Mojave Incident, a tale of alien abduction, apparently, written by a man called Ron Felber, who we'll be talking with.
Quite an interesting one, this one, I think you'll find.
But let's do these shout-outs before we get to Ron Felber in the US.
Jonathan Gable in West Virginia, a guest suggestion, thank you for it.
Stu in London, good to hear from you, Stu suggesting Dallas Simpson.
Slavka in this country, the UK, says, I really enjoyed your podcast with Garnet Schulhauser.
And after I bought his book, I found it fascinating.
Although I already knew some of the things that his spirit guides talk about from other sources, it was good to read and get some insights on heavy topics like karma.
See, different strokes for different strokes.
Not everybody liked Garnet Schulhauser.
Tim, suggesting another Tim.
Tim Swartz, who of course we had recently on the show.
Thank you for that, Tim.
Jeff enjoyed Gary Heseltine.
Alex in Miami wants to know, have I ever been to Florida?
A couple of times, usually passing through, but I did actually stay in Florida some years ago near Orlando and found it very welcoming.
Would like to go back.
Sean in Liverpool, no fan of June Lundgren.
Thank you for your email, Sean.
Laser Night wants a show about giants.
We have to do one of those.
Bill suggesting Max Eigen as a guest.
Ty in the US, thank you for your email.
Matt Monchika-Kowowski found my show through recommendations by a friend of mine, Nick Marr Jerison.
That's nice to know that he's recommending me.
Nice comments from Jeannie in Southwestern Australia.
Hi, Jeannie.
Jay Palmer talks to me about the ghost plane in Derbyshire, which was supposedly a Lancaster bomber, Second World War bomber, that flew silently over the skies of Derbyshire.
Now, I think I'm right in saying, didn't these bombers take part in the famous Dan Busters World War II raid?
And didn't they rehearse that raid at Derwentwater?
Now, I might have got all of this wrong, but let me know.
But interesting, that people have reported a silent plane in the sky, looking like one of those.
Okay.
Jim in Ontario says staying away from gluten may help my tinnitus.
That's interesting, Jim, because I've recently tried some gluten breakfast flakes, and the tinnitus may be slightly lower, but it varies so much.
It's hard to know.
Mark in Cape Town, now in London, thank you for your email.
Chris Pagani says, your show on Morgellin's syndrome made me think of the book that you should write, Victims of Skepticism.
Okay, Chris.
Stephen Bostock, thank you for your email.
Lee wants to hear more of the great Lionel Fanthorpe.
We have to have him on.
We have him on at least once a year.
Kim, wants David Paul Nidis back on.
Good news, Kim, he's coming.
Stefania, thank you for your various emails.
Mladdin says that June Lundgren was just a harmless old lady who wanted to hear her voice on the unexplained.
Okay, Miladden.
Nick, regarding your latest podcast talking about Morgellens, you might find the research of German Harold Koatz Velle useful.
Kyle Note, thank you for your email.
Enrico in Mexico City says keep this going on and for sure it will get you going forever.
He's talking about my show.
Ricky in Vancouver, BC, nice to hear from you.
Duan, nice to hear from you again.
Rob in Blackburn, Lancashire, some good ideas for funding of the show.
Trevor in South Carolina, am I doing any live shows?
Not at the moment, Trevor.
But watch this space.
Maybe we can get to that at some point.
Good ideas from MJ in Arlington, Texas.
D in Southern California, some kind comments.
Thank you, D. And from Gareth, he says, love your show.
And I'm working my way through all the editions.
I'm a serving police officer in London, and I was a bit disappointed when you mentioned the poor treatment of one individual that caused the riots of 2011.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
I believe this is what the government want the public to think.
While I was a riot officer during this time, many people were in support of us during that period.
Unfortunately, I believe it was propaganda used by the media to ensure future sales of papers, and the government wanted to blame anyone but themselves.
That is a point of view I've heard a few times, Gareth.
And I hope I didn't give the wrong impression about that.
But it is seen that there was one incident that triggered all of this off.
And that is what historians, I guess, will come to right.
But we know that history is sometimes wrong.
Nice email from Gary Clark.
Thank you.
David G., thank you for your funding ideas.
Paul in New Zealand, fascinating email.
Paul, thank you for taking the time and trouble to write.
Emily in Florida studies Chinese medicine.
Some interesting thoughts on tinnitus.
And thank you for them, Emily.
I'm going to take them on board.
Terry says, Tallyho, which of course we all say here in England.
Eric in Carmel, California.
Nice to hear from you, Eric.
And great email from Heather.
Now, Heather runs a coffee house on a small Bahamian island.
And Heather, let me tell you the picture that you painted of your life in that place.
Made it sound very, very appealing.
But lovely to think that you're baking.
You may even be baking right now as I'm saying these words and listening to my shows.
That's fabulous, isn't it?
And way, like me, you work way before most other sensible people are awake.
So Heather, thank you for that.
If you want to email me, it's theunexplained.tv.
That's the website and follow the link.
This time on the show, we're going to talk to Ron Felber, described by one blog posting as a masterful storyteller.
The Rainbow Vision Network says it's the most terrifying and enlightening UFO story ever told.
What am I talking about?
The Mojave incident, which Ron Felber has written a book about and which he's going to come on here to talk about right now.
Again, As ever.
Give me your views on Ron Felber when you've heard the show.
Thank you very much for your ongoing support.
Yes, we are trying to develop this show, and I can't do any of it without you being there for me, which you have been.
Okay, Ron Felber in the United States.
Thank you very much for coming on The Unexplained.
Good to be here, Howard.
Whereabouts are you?
I'm in London.
Where are you?
I'm in Mendem, New Jersey, not far from New York City.
That's a hell of a long way from the Mojave Desert.
Yes, it is.
But at the time, I had met the Giffords through a friend, and at the time I was working in California.
So it wasn't so much of a coincidence.
This was rather local.
They lived in La Marada, and I lived around Pasadena.
Okay, the Giffords are at the heart of this story.
Now, before we begin this narrative, I just want to say that we're doing this on a digital line.
There is a little bit of reverberation from your room there in the background, and I know some people are sticklers about audio quality.
You'll agree with me, Ron.
We've tried a great deal.
This is the very best we can get, and I'm quite happy with it.
So if you're happy to go, I'm happy to go.
I'm ready to go, Howie.
All right, now, a fascinating story, but the problem with alien abduction, so-called, is that there are so many people who believe they have a story and actually turn out to be deluded or they've experienced something else that is not alien abduction.
What makes this story different from all the other hash out there?
Yeah, that's a great question, and I think I have a good answer.
The answer is that this is a prolonged experience, eight conscious hours and then another four that were recaptured via hypnosis.
This was not something that was done with just one person where they wake up in the middle of the night and have a story.
This was a conscious experience with two middle-class individuals, both college-educated with children, so very stable, stable jobs, et cetera.
And individuals that I brought to the National Center of Psychiatry in Washington, D.C., to have studied for neurosis or psychosis.
I also brought them to a retrogressive hypnotist, Dr. William Annixter in Asheville, North Carolina, who had done a lot of work with the FBI to recover memories, let's say, of rape victims or victims of terrorist attacks, that sort of thing.
And so this was really very, very validated, very bona fide.
And more than anything, it was corroborated from a number of different points of view.
The first and primary one is that two individuals saw the same things at the same time and were conscious when it happened.
You're talking about the people themselves, the principles, the gifts.
That's correct.
This to me screams very much of the Betty and Barney Hill case, which of course is the one that all of these cases are built upon.
They all look back to this one because that was the granddaddy, we're supposing, of modern-day abductions.
Yeah, I think the difference there again, if I recall the Hill story, they had a UFO that hovered above them and then they had missing time.
This wasn't quite like that.
This was on a massive scale.
These were people that saw basically they're in the middle of the desert, maroon pretty much, and they see in the sky, in the horizon, an M shape of UFOs.
They see these UFOs drop to the ground.
And actually, since it's night, they see beings, entities get out and rush towards them, red eyes, etc.
They go into their camper and they have eight conscious hours of an experience where some of the best descriptions I know of or have heard of in terms of what these beings look like, what they're about, why they're here, what is the purpose of abductions is drawn out.
And again, it's conscious.
It's something where they're literally pinching one another, saying, do you see this?
Do you see that?
So things like hallucinations were ruled out, drugs were ruled out, neurosis was ruled out.
So really, you're left with, as they say, with Oakham's razor, you know, the simplest explanation with the least number of assumptions is usually the correct one.
And so I think this was much, much more extensive than what the Hills underwent.
Let's just wind back a little.
Let's put this into context.
When was this and why were they there?
Yeah.
This was October 21st, 1989.
They were there because actually they had a couple of kids.
They had the grandparents were willing to babysit.
So they took the opportunity.
The husband wanted to go hunting.
He loved hunting and loved the desert.
And he would go off-roading in the desert.
And so that was what he wanted.
Of course, she didn't want any part of hunting, but what she did want was a good time.
So what they did was combine things.
So they went to see a band, listen to some music at a place called Whiskey Pete's that was, you know, sort of on the outskirts of the desert.
And then what they were going to do is stay at Mid Hills campsite, and he would go hunting.
As it turned out, after they went to Whiskey Pete's and had the good time that Elise Gifford wanted, Mid Hills was completely sold out.
And so what they decided to do was go directly into the desert at night.
And so that's what brought them there.
Right.
Okay.
So we know that this is pretty contemporary.
I mean, 1989 is within many of our living memories.
So, you know, this is not something that's way back in the 50s, 40s, or 60s.
And they had a good reason to be there.
Of course, as you said, they'd been enjoying themselves.
And that kind of assumes that maybe they've been imbibing, you know, alcoholic beverages.
Yeah, I think that I don't know about you, Howard, but I don't mind a beer now and again.
You know me too well.
It was a little like that.
I mean, I think, you know, neither of them are heavy drinkers or big drinkers.
As a matter of fact, Elise Gifford was Mormon, and the strongest thing she would drink is a Diet Coke.
And this is going to sound crazy, but look, I'm speaking as somebody who did a very little bit of camping with my parents When I was a lot younger.
And, you know, various things are involved in camping.
For example, gas.
You cook with gas, you're cooking on gas when you're camping.
I would imagine that if this has been professionally investigated, things like them inhaling something inadvertently and being affected in an hallucinogenic kind of way, that's been ruled out too.
Yeah, that's again a very good point.
The way it was ruled out is pretty simple.
If botulism were to happen, let's say they had steak and a can of beans, and let's say the can of beans was tainted, and botulism can cause hallucinations and things of that nature.
Let's even say that they took peyote.
Their hallucinations would not be the same.
What is peyote, by the way?
Mescaline.
Oh, right.
Okay.
Got you.
So the Indians and whatnot would use that for spiritual exercises and whatnot.
But even looking at that kind of thing, what makes this appear to be what they say it is, and what validates this, is that if they were the victims of some kind of hallucinogen, they wouldn't be seeing the same things at the same time.
If you took mescaline or if you had botulism or if you inhaled some kind of gas, you did and I did, you would have your own set of subconscious hallucinations and ideas that would come out of your mind.
I think that's pretty clear, isn't it?
That these things, whatever they may be, have a different effect on different brains.
Yes.
So they would not be the same.
They would not be pinching themselves literally moment to moment, terrified, saying, do you see this?
This is what I see.
Perhaps, unless, of course, they were conditioned in the same way.
Were they, and I'm sorry to interrupt you there, but I mustn't lose this point before my brain loses it.
Were they New Agey?
No, no, not at all.
This fellow was a construction, project manager for a construction company.
He was a former all-state football player.
These are bread and butter kind of people.
They're not flighty.
I think we need to take the sighting and the encounter then almost minute by minute.
There they are.
They've been to this place of entertainment.
They then go out into the desert.
They're under the stars.
It's idyllic.
I'd love to do it.
Never have, but maybe one of these days I will.
It's every American's dream, isn't it?
The great outdoors.
There they are.
What happened then?
Well, I mean, there's a quote from Elise Gifford, I think, that captures quite a bit of the terror that they experienced.
She says, when we first saw them dropping from the sky, we thought it was some kind of military maneuver, maybe for Operation Desert Storm.
But it was too massive even for that.
I mean, there were thousands of them falling, then rushing towards us.
So I kicked out the campfire, grabbed my gun, and ran back into the camper with Elise.
Then we sat there Indian style, waiting, until they came, thousands of them, thousands of pairs of tiny red eyes glowing in the dark around us.
So if you can imagine, this started by them around a campfire.
They'd eaten dinner and were roasting marshmallows.
And basically they look up to the sky and Tom is identifying the different configurations of the stars.
And then Elise says, well, what's that one?
It's so shiny.
And look at that.
There's another.
And out of the horizon comes like the shape of an M. So these craft have configured into the shape of an M. So she says, these aren't stars.
This is something different.
So he says, well, there's a lot of testing that goes on with military craft and whatnot.
Maybe it's some kind of experimental craft.
But these are glowing orbs.
And then they start to fall to the ground.
And now there's a different feeling, and it's pure terror.
So Tom, who is a hunter, had weapons.
He had a shotgun with him.
He got his shotgun and was literally ready to do battle when they started to get telepathic messages.
Don't do that or we'll kill you.
Get in the back of the camper.
So they get in the back of the camper, Indian style, sitting there Indian style, him with a shotgun over his lap.
And these various kinds of beings, these illuminated figures that surround the camper, along with two others that are sort of gremlin-type electrified beings or mechanisms, hold them captive in the back of this camper while for eight hours.
You quantified them in their thousands.
You quantified them in their thousands.
Yeah, there were different kinds of beings.
And one was a sort of dwarfish figures that came at.
These were the ones with red eyes.
And that's what initially began the onslaught.
But ultimately, once they were in the camper, a huge craft hovers above them, the size of a football field.
They are surrounded by these illuminated beings, while a kind of triangular craft, which they called a searcher, scours the desert basin looking for something, whether it was minerals, whether it was animal life, I couldn't say, except that under hypnosis, when they go back and are retrogressed, they actually have some pretty amazing descriptions of the interior of the craft, the large craft.
And the Mojave Desert, all I know about it is, you know, they film a lot of Westerns there, don't they?
Because it's a reasonable proximity to Hollywood.
And a lot of people go there for not exactly a tame taste, but a controllable taste of the great outdoors.
Are we honestly saying that something on this scale could have happened and nobody anywhere else was aware of it?
Well, the Mojave Desert is hundreds and hundreds of miles.
So there are areas that are probably on the lip or the edge of civilization, let's call it.
But mostly what the Mojave is noted for is huge tracts of ground where the military does top secret exercises, et cetera.
And it's anything but hospitable.
I mean, this is a kind of area where in the height of daytime, the temperature might be 120 degrees.
So there they are.
They have been subjected to the will of these beings, of which there are various kinds.
It is pointed out to them that although it may be your right to bear arms, please don't bear them in our direction because you may well pay a fearful price for that.
Thankfully, they heeded that warning and got into the back of the camper van.
They must, as you hinted, have been absolutely, abjectly petrified.
Yeah.
As a matter of fact, they felt many times during the course of this ordeal that they were on the verge of heart attacks.
And when that would happen, a kind of mist would come into the camper, float into the camper that would anesthesize them, that would calm them down.
And they could feel their heart, which was racing, you know, part in their throat.
They would feel themselves calmed.
So they were dealing with something that not only could communicate with them on a telepathic level, but was also able to monitor their physiological signs.
Absolutely correct.
Yes.
Wow.
You met them, didn't you?
Yeah, I brought them to Washington, D.C., to the National Center of Psychiatry.
I brought them to North Carolina, Asheville, North Carolina, to meet with Dr. William Annixter.
And the other thing that you had asked about what separates this from other kinds of stories, we had two really prominent doctors.
Both of them looked at this and called it the most incredible phenomenon they'd ever encountered.
And by the way, William Annister, who, again, did work with the FBI and was a retrogressive hypnotist, said, you know, you can look at various explanations as to what happened.
But at the end, I would say that what they say happened to them, happened to them.
It would make a wonderful movie.
Yeah, I think it would.
Okay, let's get back to the story.
I just need to fill in bits of detail as we go along.
So that's why I took you up that path.
And now I'm going to bring you back to the main course.
They're there.
They're subject to these creatures' will.
At what stage did it become clear to them what was going to happen?
Well, they started to get messages, telepathic messages.
And it was like the illuminated figures who literally, so they have shades on this truck.
They could see these things outside.
Can you imagine anything more eerie?
Are pulling memories and emotions from out of them.
So it was almost like the aliens were in search of human emotions.
What makes people tick?
And so I don't want to go into everything that they pulled out of them, but they were the most traumatic experiences of their lives.
They were the most exalting experiences of their life.
They were things like childbirth, things like rape, things like being an all-state football player and enjoying the adoration of fans, humiliating experiences.
So they were keen to probe the whole gamut of human emotions and feelings.
And we've heard this before in tales about so-called extraterrestrials, that they want to know how we are.
And I suppose for them, if you look at it from their point of view, opportunities to get, you know, in peace and quiet without being discovered subjects are few and far between.
So this brings me to this point.
Do the Giffords believe when they were talking to you, did they believe that they had been targeted here or did they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Yeah, another good question.
And in some of these lengthy, I have some lengthy quotes because these were videotaped.
This is a retroaggressive hypnosis session.
They were hypnotized separately.
And so I had transcripts to pull from and videos to pull from.
And they think that they're pretty average in the sense that if you wanted to find people that were, let's put it normal, if there is such a thing, a certain income level, a certain level of education, a family, not just children, but grandparents, so extended family.
Probably what made them so desirable as subjects was exactly what you're saying.
They were in the right place at the right time from the alien point of view, but also they weren't extraordinary.
I mean, these were not Phi Beta Kappas.
These were not Nobel laureates.
These were, you know, workaday people with values that would be pretty common, I think, globally.
They were your average aspirational couple, people of intelligence, intellect, certain amount of achievement about them.
They're what most people aspire to be.
I think so.
So from the aliens' point of view, I guess, if you're looking for a good median, a good norm, a good average, then you found them there.
So there they are, having all of these experiences extracted from them.
Let me tell you, we've all been through, most of us, unless we've lived on the top of a mountain in a nunnery or a monastery, we've all been through a whole range of experiences in our lives.
Some of those traumatic, some of them not nice, the bereavements, the failures, the defeats, the backslides, all of those things.
If you're made to relive them, which I don't know if they were made to actually relive them, that's traumatic, isn't it?
I feel like they were reliving them.
That was what was so terrifying.
Well, I just were plunged into that world again.
So it's like what they call, if you believe in sort of near-death experiences, it's your past life review, but it's happening right now.
I don't know if you've been through something like that.
How on earth do you recover?
Well, you know, one of the things that, again, validates the story, I think, aside from so many other things, is Dr. Vuitton, you know, said, if I had to describe these individuals after some extensive discussions, extensive questioning and testing, I would say they show all the earmarks of prisoners of war.
Why didn't this dysfunction, insomnia, etc.
Sorry, I interrupted again.
I'm just so keen to get this information out of you, I guess.
Why was this not on the front page of every paper, everywhere?
Why haven't I heard about this before?
I'm really glad you're a very good interviewer.
The answer to that is they didn't want to tell this story.
So this is how this all came about.
And maybe we're a little out of chronology, but I think it serves its purpose.
I was working with a fellow.
I was CEO of a company.
At the time, I wasn't CEO, but I was a general manager.
So I had a fellow working for me who was in sales, who was also a football player, a young man, football player.
And he and I got to be buddies.
So when he left, went on to another career opportunity.
We still stayed in touch.
And we'd have a glass of beer now and again.
And if he was in New York or I was in California at the same time, we would meet, have dinner and a glass of wine or something.
But anyway, he said, you know, I know you're a writer, and I know you don't generally do this kind of story, but I have a friend.
And if I put you together, he's my best friend.
And if I put you together, I know that a great book would come out of it.
He said, the problem is that neither he nor his wife want to discuss this.
And the only reason he told me about it was because I'm his best friend.
But I think that maybe it would be good for them to be able to tell this story.
And I think maybe it would be good for you because it's a great story and you're a writer.
So this guy was being a great intermediary, was he?
He was being a friend to them and a friend to you, a friend to them because he felt it would be cathartic for them and a friend to you because he thought it would be a great story for somebody who can write to tell.
Cathartic is exactly the correct word.
What a position to be put in.
I mean, look, if it was me, and from what I'm reading of your background, you've written a lot of fiction books, haven't you?
Yeah, I've done nonfiction and fiction, but at that time in particular, I was doing fiction.
The journalist in me would tend to think, I've got to get to them right now before somebody else does.
That wasn't the way I looked at it because, frankly, I was not somebody that was a great fan of UFOs or this kind of thing.
And so I did read about Betty and Barney Hill like everybody in the papers.
And I did read, of course, Whitley Stryver, et cetera.
But I mean, in passing, and I looked at it as just not the kind of thing I did.
And really, while it was, I didn't know the story, the full story at the time.
But on the face of it, you know, I just didn't really want to get involved.
But he convinced me to meet with them.
And once I met them and started to hear bits and pieces of the story, and then finally the full story, I said, my God, I don't think anything like this has ever been recorded.
When was this?
When did you meet them?
I met them in 1990, 1991, that area of time, about a three-year period.
Okay.
And now I got a news release through, which I periodically do from a New York public relations company.
And it was quite an impressive one.
And I thought, okay, now this may be a hoax.
So I tried various permutations of your name just to see if your name was an anagram of something that would prove it's a hoax.
And I don't think it is.
I don't think you're a hoax, so you don't look like one.
You don't sound like one.
I just retired from being president of a $250 million corporation.
Well, I think that kind of speaks of itself, I think, Ron.
Thank you for that.
Okay, well, that answers the question for anybody who might be tempted to ask it, I think.
But I'm interested to see that it is at the top of this is the slug, as we say in journalism, that says that it's the Mojave Incident Inspired by a Chilling Story of Alien Adduction.
If you get a story like this, I would just want to write the story.
Why would I want to write a story that's inspired by this?
Yeah, what I tried to do, and that's not to say that I took great liberties.
I mean, this is most of it comes from transcripts and tapes.
So you could say a true story, but one of the things I didn't want was a dry, you know, and I've seen since and while I was doing research for this, some books that are just boring.
You see these facts and they're like what a policeman would write up in a report.
So what I wanted to do was a sort of a Norman Mailer, a Mailer-esque sort of version, like executioner song, which won a Pulitzer Prize, where it's written more like a novel in the sense that I'm next to a fellow and he says, so what's up?
And I say, you're not going to believe the story I just heard.
So it's told from that kind of narrative, which makes it more interesting, I think, than just sort of a fact sheet.
And that's why we called it that.
But did you make up some parts of the story then?
No, no.
What I did was to maybe move around some events just to make them a little more readable.
And edit, of course.
I mean, you have transcripts of anything.
You have a four-hour interview with somebody, as you know.
You're not going to, first of all, you're not going to, nobody's going to want to see four hours.
So words are not changed, Meanings are not changed.
But if I published everything that was involved with this, it would be a 2,000-page book.
And I think, as we're proving with this interview, such as it is on my part, we're proving that you have to leap around the narrative a bit to build the story.
And that's why I'm taking you backwards and forwards in this and talking about you and talking about them.
Let's get back to them.
They go through this experience, which was relived later under hypnosis, and they've had the psychological testing and all the rest of it.
But they were abducted.
To be abducted means to be taken away.
They were taken away inside the spaceship.
Talk to me about that.
Well, you know, there's some really pretty incredible things that came out of the hypnotic session in particular.
So maybe I could just read a description to you.
Please do.
Yeah.
This is from Elise Gifford.
And it says, the being is four feet tall.
He wears a white luminous uniform with an upturned arrow on the chest.
He has no facial features, no mouth or lips, only slips.
He passes directly through the wall.
He stands behind the headboard.
He stays there, passes three long fingers over my face over and over.
So these kinds of descriptions are quite incredible, I think.
Here's another.
This is under hypnosis.
This is, again, this would be Elise.
She concentrates.
Her eyes flutter in rapid, sudden motions.
Big head, real white.
I can't tell what they're made of, like skin so transparent it glows.
But you can't see veins and things.
She strains to see.
I guess he's wearing a shiny covering, too.
I don't know what kind of material that is.
She hesitated.
I see something on his chest.
It's like an arrow, just the top of an arrow.
What else?
Dr. Annixter asks.
Just three fingers and a thumb.
Really shiny.
Really long.
I just hate his eyes.
So dark you can't even see them.
Can't see the parts like our eyes.
They're big.
Then they go skinny as it ends.
That tiny nose, practically just two holes.
Little mouth, but I don't think they're teeth or even lips.
A little chin, no hair, skinny body like a five-year-old's, almost my height.
You know, that's kind of incredible, I think.
And beautifully written, if I may say so, Ron.
You know, speaking as one who's spent a lot of his career writing scripts for broadcast, to get emotion and meaning and brevity all together like that.
Very good, if I may be so humble as to say so.
Thanks so much.
So this is a sense of what they went through, what she went through.
I don't want to go into anything that would be difficult for them or for you to go into, but we've heard these stories before.
Were they probed?
Yes, that's correct.
And as a matter of fact, this was probably one of the weirder moments where Elise starts pulling at her neck.
And the doctor says, what are you doing?
Why are you doing that?
She just keeps doing it almost obsessively.
And she talks about probes.
She talks about, first of all, the probes that you would normally hear about in these stories.
But there are two little marks on the side of her neck.
And she felt that something had been inserted into her, like a tracking device.
Right, are you still there?
I am.
Okay, sorry, you just broke up very, very slightly.
So she thought that there was some kind of tracking device.
I mean, this speaks very much of work that various people have done about implants, doesn't it?
That aliens are supposed to put implants in people.
Yep.
And you know, a lot of people, and this is where, again, what I think makes this really very unique and sort of wild.
People say, well, why are human beings abducted?
Why is this going on?
Under hypnosis, Dawn, you know, I'm sorry, Lise and Tom make some statements that really, when I heard them, it dawned on me that this was incredibly different from anything else.
She says, and again, under hypnosis, they want to make contact with the population.
We're specimens, imperfect like the human race.
When we're ready to communicate with them face to face, then possibly the world will be too.
They have to study our reactions so they know how to approach us.
They don't have emotions like ours, so they need us to teach them.
They need to understand humans.
So are we their experiment?
Did they create this experiment, put it in the Petri dish?
Or have they discovered us and want to learn about us?
I think that the most stunning moment of this interview comes when the doctor then says, what else do you know?
And she says, there are five galaxies.
Theirs is the next closest.
In order for all five galaxies to work together one day, they have to start, and they're starting with us, so we'll be united galaxies.
What else do you know?
Dr. Annixter asks.
I know where the universe ends, she said, rattling the words off staccato like rounds from a machine gun.
Is that something you can put into words?
Now there was no denying, you know, something incredible is going on.
She says, our universe ends where theirs begins.
Our universe ends when all its matter stops mattering to us and starts mattering to them.
That almost says that with the recent space news that we've had, and it's been coming thick and fast this year, we're getting further and further out.
We've discovered a planet rather that looks a lot like Earth and might actually behave like Earth with a sun like ours.
That indicates to us that maybe we are getting closer to them.
You know, maybe we're going to find them eventually.
I just think, again, this is, I say in the preface that it's sort of a crack in the world, a crack in a wall that you can see through for a very short period of time into another world that's very, very different from our own and perhaps exists side by side with our own.
This story, you know, I tried to do it as reportage in terms of Facts and not draw a lot of conclusions.
But at the end, probably what they say happened to them.
But there's certainly a spiritual level to all of this because at the end, when they think that they just are at a breaking point where they think they've gone mad, a sort of angelic presence, not unlike a Marian visitation from Fatima or Lourdes or like that, this feminine being says, you know, don't worry.
They call it the comforter.
They made a name for it.
This was their comforter.
Things will be okay.
This won't last forever.
It will end soon.
And things started to, the mayhem that was going on outside the craft in the desert basin, et cetera, the hover craft above them starts to subside.
And so you could almost look at it as a kind of demon possession story in some fashion, do you know?
And that brings me to a point that I need to make now.
And it's almost an apology because from the beginning, we've kind of, you know, I've walked into the biggest trap of all.
And I've said, I've assumed that these were guys from space.
And quite rightly, these might be guys from another dimension that, for want of another word, we might call space, but might not actually be by our definition.
Exactly.
And so you could say, again, if you use this crack in the wall analogy, you could say that, as Dawn does, as Elise and Tom say in the course of things, that these beings have been with us for perhaps thousands of years,
hundreds of thousands of years, side by side, existing, in which case it may have a spiritual dimension to it, or may be just another dimension that exists side by side.
And, you know, we find ourselves on very rare occasions able to witness those extended periods.
Investigation, there was probing in the way that we've read and heard about before.
But all these cases, a lot of these cases, have a certain amount, as you've already hinted, of imparting information.
And they've said that we are being analyzed by them and they want to know what our emotions are like so that when they finally present themselves to all of us, we're not going to freak out or they'll know exactly how to do it, how to treat that thing.
What else did they say?
Well, one of the other things I thought was really chilling, and again, just gives you the goose flesh.
Afterwards, and this was explained by Dr. Vittone as this POW syndrome, a traumatic experience stays with you.
And so even when they returned to their home, they had insomnia.
They just, you know, they had a lot of difficulties getting back into regular life again.
And they had a son, Tom Jr., and in the middle of the night, he starts screaming.
And they always feel this presence, these watchers around them, like they're being watched.
They go into his room and he's spinning like a top.
And finally, he stops and they're screaming and they hold him and whatnot.
And the child begs his mother, please don't leave.
And she goes, you know, why?
I'll stay with you, but why?
Because when you leave, that's when the monsters with the red eyes come.
Oh, Lord.
I know.
So that implies that the monsters with the red eyes, the beings, are monitoring the family.
That certainly implies that, yes.
If I've been through an experience like that, that is so traumatic and has such fundamental effects upon me, then I would probably want to get professional help as soon as possible.
Did they seek it in 1989?
Well, actually, what happened was, I mean, they were introduced to that sort of thing by me when they met Dr. Vittone and Dr. Annixter.
But they didn't do it immediately.
They didn't phone 911.
They didn't go to the police.
They didn't do anything by the sounds of it at the time.
They told their parents, which for them was a big deal.
Because, I mean, one way or the other, a lot of these things, and probably one of the reasons, you know, I sort of shied away from doing the story, writing the story.
I mean, there's still a sort of stigma that's attached to these kinds of things.
And, you know, that you're crazy or wacko, this, that, or the other.
And so you've got to understand these are people with enormous pride.
They built their career, they built their existence.
And now, what, they're going to go tell their boss at work.
Oh, by the way, I was abducted by aliens.
So even to tell their parents, there was almost a shame attached to it, I would say.
Well, I can understand that.
I have heard that before.
I'm sure that was the case.
How did they carry on with ordinary life then?
They didn't do so well.
I mean, all of a sudden, this is a fellow that was noted for, you know, bringing projects in on time, construction projects, you know, malls and things like that, in on time and under budget.
And he couldn't get motivated to go to work in the morning.
Boy.
Did they get themselves back on track, presumably, because they were able to talk with you and they're still here?
They did.
Well, actually, what happened was they wound up moving very near to Salt Lake City and really buried themselves in the bosom of Mormonism.
It was a life-altering experience.
This isn't their real name, is it?
No.
No.
I can understand exactly why they wouldn't want to do this.
But equally, because this is such a game-changer and because this is a comparatively recent story that has so many dimensions to it, do they not, and I wonder if you asked them this, I'm sure you did, if on some level they feel they owe it to all of us to speak about this themselves, it's good to have you as a writer, and you write well, interpreting that for us, but it would be much more credible if they came forward themselves.
Well, actually, I think it was that line of reasoning that got the story told to begin with.
Because if you recall, they didn't want to tell this story.
They just wanted to bury this.
They just, I think, were probably suffering from depression and just wanted it to go away more than anything.
And so they allowed me to do this book, but they wanted nothing to do with promotion.
And also, once they became ensconced, if you want to use that word, in the Mormon church, really deeply involved with the Mormon church, and this would be quite a bit later, I think they were convinced that this was more a situation of a spiritual one, of a religious nature, as opposed to alien beings.
This was a kind of contest between good and evil.
Good and evil.
But the fact that they have talked to you in the terms that they did and subjected themselves to the tests that they did indicates they don't entirely believe that.
You know, people, I think people go through permutations, particularly people that have been, you know, traumatized.
And I mean, if you look at, if I look at just people that I know that maybe didn't have the greatest childhood, and then one of their parents dies and all of a sudden they take on a saintly aura.
You know, it's a permutation on facts.
It's a permutation on reality.
But it's the way the human mind works.
And so I think it's the way people come to grips with things.
I love my audience.
My audience is very skeptical.
And so am I, to an extent.
They will be emailing me even as we speak saying, either this guy is a hoaxer or he himself has been hoaxed.
You're going to get that.
You've probably got that already.
You've had it said.
What do you say?
Do you know, I'll be honest with you.
I have not gotten that.
I haven't gotten that.
You know, I mean, personally, my background, as I mentioned, I went to Georgetown University.
I have a MBA from Loyola University.
I have a doctorate in arts and letters.
And I've been CEO for 30 years of a major corporation.
So a lot of people say I'm hoaxing things.
Why on earth would I need to do that?
Okay.
But equally, you know, we're all capable, no matter how savvy we think we are, of being hoodwinked.
I have been in my life, and I like to think I'm a fairly smart cookie.
You're sure that you haven't been?
Yeah.
No, I mean, I wanted to take care of the first part, which is that I was a hoaxer.
So let's take care of the second part and that they're hoaxers.
Why would anyone subject themselves to all of this?
It was no money motive.
It's not about money.
I mean, why would anyone do this to themselves?
And why would anyone risk their own careers and their reputation and the credibility they've gained over most of their life to tell a story that is either very real and wild or just crazy?
But they're doing it under a cloak of anonymity, aren't they?
We don't know their real names.
And by the way, they were examined by the top people in their profession to look again for mental illness, to look for lying, to look for inconsistencies.
But more than that, to be hypnotized and brought back retrogressively to moments, again, separately, where their stories absolutely corroborated one another.
And these were painful things to go through.
So, I mean, again, you've got to ask yourself, what's the motive?
Why would somebody do this?
And almost no one would subject themselves to this if they were hoaxing.
These are not jokes by any stretch of the imagination.
So, Ron Feldberg, you are now custodian of one of the greatest stories ever told.
What are you going to do with it now?
Well, the book is available now from Amazon, Barnes, and Noble.
It'll be in bookstores and whatnot.
But online, it's available now.
We'll see.
Let's see what comes of it.
We've gotten some very good reviews.
People that have read it really like the book.
They love the story.
So I think in terms of an audience, you've got people that believe in UFOs and alien abductions.
And I think this will be great evidence.
This will be something that they'll really embrace.
And for others, I think it'll be something that makes them ask questions.
And if you have a better explanation, and one of them might be a military exercise, I mean, these are possible, but it would be such a massive misunderstanding that it's just not likely.
But for whoever reads it, I think they're going to find it's fascinating and compelling.
And if it was a military exercise, Ron, if it was a military exercise, you wouldn't do it that way, would you?
You would do it in the more straightforward way.
Why on earth would you want little beings with red eyes?
Well, one of the alternate things that I had thought about and I put in the book is that maybe this was a desert warfare exercise and these craft were desert hovering craft that hover in sand, over sand.
And red eyes, perhaps, were night vision goggles.
And maybe an ellucinogen was dropped, as the military did with the Red Guard in Iraq.
But again, you pursue that and you can start to cobble a case together.
But it all falls apart in the end when you really look at the facts and the full measure of this.
Okay.
If you can elaborate on that.
If there was an exercise and an hallucinogen was used, and it's the kind of place where the military would do or somebody would do an exercise like that, and they'd want to cover their tracks.
And sometimes it has been claimed tracks have been covered by supposed stories of things which are extraterrestrial because it's just an easy way to discredit people's stories and stop them getting out.
So, what for you is the killer piece of information that says this is not that?
Yeah, I think that the hypnosis, the retroaggressive hypnosis, the detail is just too specific.
I mean, I read to you a couple of instances of detail, of descriptions, of feelings, of experiences.
And the other, and this is the most, this is the backbreaker to the military exercise one, is just simply that they would not have had the same experience.
They just wouldn't have had the same experience.
They would have had different hallucinations.
Their stories would have diverged, but that didn't happen at all.
Even under hypnosis, separately, the stories did not diverge.
They fit together really, really quite well.
So they were separate places, separate times.
They were isolated from each other.
They couldn't have been influenced by the same thing.
So that does add a fair amount of credibility to it.
If I was there on the table, and I'm sure you two, Ron, you would be, if I was able to, even if I couldn't speak, I'd be thinking at them, why don't you let me go?
And why are you doing this to me?
And just let this be over.
I think that's correct.
I think that's exactly the feelings they did have.
And it was a terrifying ordeal that lasted for an extended length of time.
So this isn't somebody looking up over the tree line and seeing a shiny object.
This is an enduring experience, both conscious and with missing time.
Did you say that it was eight hours?
Yeah.
That's a hell of a long time.
That's a third of a day to completely lose.
From the early evening to the next morning.
And this was not the era of mobile phones, so it's not as if they were in constant contact with anybody.
I suppose in a situation like that, you could lose eight hours and nobody would be any the wiser.
Well, actually, I mean, one would assume, particularly if they were, you know, isolated as they were, one could assume that, yeah, they'd be sleeping.
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the time for it.
How were they returned to the camper, assuming they were?
Well, actually, they woke up outside the camper to a dead campfire and groggy, I guess, irritable, you know, disoriented.
As a matter of fact, they tried to find people and came upon some other campers, you know, maybe 10 miles away and sort of skittishly, you know, asked, did you see anything last night, this, that, or the other?
And they hadn't.
The people that they talked to are older and had, you know, went to bed early that night and did not see any of the phenomenon that they experienced.
What a terrible feeling to know that you're the only people who know this thing.
You've been through something, but you don't know what the hell it is.
See, that's exactly the point.
So if you ask, why would they be reluctant to...
Something that's life-altering, something that's the big news that you talk about.
But if it's just you and your spouse, that's a pretty small circle.
And pretty difficult to live your life thereafter.
Yeah, I think so.
And I think it's a very natural, by the way, reaction to turn to religion, to turn to religion.
Well, anything to keep your sanity.
I think so.
I mean, that's just a view that might be put there.
It's not necessarily my view, but I can quite understand why somebody would.
You'd have to grasp onto something just to hold onto your marbles, as we say here, to make sure that you're keeping a grip on reality.
Oh, boy.
Any indication apart from what happened to the child that they were affected by the beings beyond that?
In other words, did the beings make any contact with them in the years afterwards?
Basically, and this is something that, again, we talk about chronology.
One of the experiences in the camper that Steve had was going back to a sighting where he was with a friend as a young boy fishing, and they saw a spacecraft and actually ran from it.
So it's almost like, and I think this is what Tom would say anyway, it's almost like this started well in advance of their experience in the desert.
He had had this encounter.
Now he didn't remember anything about it, but it flashed back to him when he first saw the initial craft.
And so one would get the impression that they're almost like tracked animals.
You see them take dolphins or some species of animal life and tag it and track it to see where it is, where it's going, how it eats, how it breeds, etc.
So in that sense, I think that they would say they were tagged and are being tracked.
I don't know where that leaves them.
I feel frustrated, I suppose, that, of course, journalistically, the first thing I would like to do is to speak with them.
I'd like to get the story, as well as having got it from you and you interpret it so well, I'd like to talk with them.
And they're not going to do that, are they?
No, but I would say that at least 25% of the book, at least, maybe more, is actual, you know, their dialogue, their answers to questions, et cetera, during hypnotic sessions and interviews.
So that in essence, you really do get to talk to them in a way.
And by the way, you get to talk to them with an immediacy to the event.
For Example, if you talk to them now, I'm not so sure.
I think things dilute over time.
And policemen will tell you this in terms of witnesses.
You want to catch a witness pretty much when the event happened.
And so what you see in the book are real and true, you know, word-for-word answers to the questions you probably would ask.
Where does it leave you?
Are you going to go on the PR circuit with this?
You know, I will do interviews with select programs and interviewers that are credible.
And I'm not doing this for money.
I'm doing it because it's a great story.
And I'm a storyteller.
You are.
And are you going to feed back to them periodically as you do these interviews like mine?
Presumably, you'll want to get in touch with them and say, here's how it's going.
Yeah, I think so, right.
How are they now?
You know, I have to say this isn't a situation that once they moved into Salt Lake City and became really devout Mormons, you know,
again, sort of buried in the bosom of this, the bishop that they worked with really told them not to have much to do with this, that this was a story that involved satanic situations and that really they should not be involved, that it was a situation where they encountered demon possession.
And actually, I end the book with a quote from Norman Mailer.
He says, the devil might be a presence from another universe that wishes to take over our universe.
We might be fighting an implacable enemy out there, and the devil might be the agent of that implacable enemy, with God as the tired general fighting that war with his own agents of hope.
That's the interpretation that they would have of the story now.
And there was something on that spacecraft that was a force for the good.
You talked about the woman who appeared or the female who appeared.
Well, actually, it actually descended and calmed things and calmed them and allowed them to survive.
So we had a dynamic going on there.
Here were the hard scientists, the people who wanted to get the information out of them.
But there was also an emotional element to it.
There was something there that understood what they were going through and wanted them to know that this was not going to go on forever and they were, you know, most fundamentally of all not going to end up dead.
Yep.
Yeah.
So, I mean, in that sense, this is what makes it, you know, I mean, this is what makes this story, at least to me, fascinating.
I mean, because there are multiple interpretations and I don't claim that I hold the patent on the truth, you know.
But what I can do is tape record the story.
What I can do is have it analyzed by experts.
What I can do is have them examined by experts for mental illness, et cetera.
But at the end, this is a sort of open-ended story.
And I think the reader will bring a lot to it in terms of the ultimate reality they see, the truth that they see in it.
I'm going to do what they do when you phone, I'm sure it's the same in the States.
I know it is.
You phone various organizations and they say at the end of this call, we're going to ask you to rate your customer experience.
So I'm going to ask you now, through this conversation that we've had, is there anything that I should have asked you and didn't?
I think it, no, by the way, thank you.
It really was a great interview and I appreciate it.
What I find most distinguishing about this story is the detail.
You know, it's one thing to say, oh, there were these beings, the grays or whatever.
All fine, you know, all fine.
But in this, through the hypnosis in particular, you wind up with real insights into something very different about human existence.
And exactly what that leads to, I can't say.
But one thing for sure, it's fascinating.
And I suppose if there's anything that would make this a stronger case, it's the detail, but it's very difficult to do.
I don't think I can go on reading sections to you, you know?
Although that would be fascinating.
I mean, this would make a great audio book, by the way.
That's a future thought.
I am available.
I have to thank the person at your PR company who thought that I would be a good person to outlet this through, because it has been a fascinating tale, Ron.
And, you know, you clearly have your, as Casey Kasim used to say on the radio back in the day, if you're the same sort of vintage as me, you'll know what I'm saying.
You know, you have your feet on the ground, but you're reaching for the stars by the sounds of it.
Thank you.
The book is called The Mojave Incident, isn't it?
Yes, that's correct.
And as I said, it's available now on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
It'll be at bookstores in about three weeks, but it's available online now.
Okay, and what do you plan next?
Anything like this?
Actually, you know, I've been writing a sort of crime thriller series called the Jack Madsen series.
So I have a third book that will come out probably in April of next year or so.
Are they true stories?
That's what I'm working on now.
Okay, is that a true story?
No, that's the issue.
Well, Ron, I'm delighted to have spoken to you, and I'm glad we overcame our technical issues.
We're not that great anyway.
Thank you very much.
Indeed, please stay in touch with me.
Tell me how this goes.
And if you'd like to revisit this, if there's anything else to do with this story, if you have any further contact with Elise and Tom and they want to say more, then please come to me.
And I have a worldwide audience and we can take it from there.
But for now, thank you very much indeed.
Thank you.
Thank you, Howard.
It's been a real pleasure.
The thoughts and views of Ron Felber, author in the United States.
Let me know what you think about him and this show.
You can email me through theunexplained.tv.
That's my website, designed, maintained, and curated by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
Let me know what you think about all of this, and if you can make a donation, please do that.
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Thank you very much, as ever, for your moral support.
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Until next, we meet here on The Unexplained.
My name is Howard Hughes.
I am in London.
Please stay safe, stay calm, and stay in touch.
Thank you.
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