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Feb. 23, 2015 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:12:02

Edition 194 - Scott Creighton & Tony Topping

Glaswegian Scott Creighton - with a fresh take on Egyptology... Also Yorkshire "Contactee"Tony Topping.

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world.
	On the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
	Well, thank you very much for keeping the faith and bearing with me.
	I've had quite a few emails to say, why haven't you been here for the last week or two?
	Very good reason for that.
	I've had a really bad chest infection.
	In fact, you may be able to hear the back end of it now because it won't let me go.
	I'm still taking antibiotics.
	But literally, it left me unable to speak or do anything.
	Apart from just lie in bed drinking fluids and hoping to get better as soon as I could.
	So that's the reason why I haven't been here.
	And of course, this being a small operation, there only being you, Adam Cornwell, my webmaster, and me involved in this.
	If anything happens to me, it means that we just can't do shows.
	We don't have backup plans and relief hosts and that kind of stuff.
	It just isn't that kind of gig.
	So that's why.
	And I do apologise, and I promise to do some shout-outs next time round when I'll mention some of the emails that you sent.
	But as you might be able to hear, my voice is still a little affected by this.
	But at least I can speak, and for that I'm giving thanks.
	This edition, slightly different.
	I'm going to run part of a conversation that I had just before I got sick with a man called Tony Topping.
	Now, Tony Topping's in the UK.
	Pretty controversial.
	He's been featured by newspapers, magazines, television shows, radio shows here.
	He claims to have had ongoing contact with UFOs that have had a big impact on him and also a certain amount of, I guess what we could call harassment from some kind of agencies to do with what he knows or what it is perceived he's connected with.
	You'll hear this.
	Now, it is what you might call an outlandish story, and I do understand that you might not find it the kind of thing you want to listen to, but I suggest you do.
	And then you make a decision.
	One of the questions that I ask him in this conversation is, are you hoaxing?
	And we'll get his response to that.
	The other guest is somebody else that you suggested, Scott Crichton.
	We're going to talk about ancient Egypt and many other things this man is interested in.
	He, too, is in the UK.
	So two good guests.
	Before we do anything, thank you very much to Adam Cornwell for keeping things ticking over for me.
	My webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, thank you to him.
	The website is all down to him.
	It's www.theunexplained.tv.
	And that's the place that you need to go.
	If you want to make a donation to the show or you want to send me an email, there are links on the website, www.theunexplained.tv that allow you to do those things.
	I've had to put a few plans on hold for guests, which means that we're running a few weeks behind schedule now, but we'll get round to all of the guests that I'd booked and wanted to get on as we move towards the springtime here.
	But these things are sent to try us.
	And let me tell you, this particular one certainly has tried me over this last couple of weeks.
	Like I say, I'm going to do some shout-outs.
	So if you've been in contact, I'm going to do those probably on the next edition.
	But this time, let's get on with the two guests.
	Tony Topping is the second guest.
	And the first one in the UK is Scott Crichton.
	Scott, thank you very much for coming on The Unexplained.
	Great to be here, Howard.
	And whereabouts are you?
	I'm in Glasgow, in Scotland.
	Right, and how is...
	We're the back end of February now.
	How's the weather in Glasgow?
	Is it cold?
	It's not good.
	It's not good at all.
	I'm looking at the window and I can barely see out of it because of the water on it.
	And it's dull, grey, and cold.
	I was telling on the radio in another place the story about the band Texas, who, of course, international band, and I think they've got another hit out at the moment, Charlene Spateri, a big export from Glasgow.
	And she told us from the south side of Glasgow, very near to where I actually live.
	So, yeah.
	Well, they're heroes in Glasgow, and they were telling the story about how the band's name came about.
	And apparently, they were sitting in a cafe in Glasgow on a really wet day, trying to come up with a name for the band.
	And somebody came up with the name Texas and said, you know, what are you going to call it?
	You know, Glasgow on a wet day in Glasgow.
	Let's call it something exotic.
	That's how they came up with it.
	I know the cafe was the Queen's Park cafe.
	And Victoria Road.
	So you might know whether that's a true story or not.
	That probably is.
	Sounds very credible to me.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Tell me about you.
	The impression that I got about you from the people who've told me about you is that you're a guy who does other stuff for a living, but you're captivated by Egyptology and all the rest of it.
	And because of the work that you do, you've been able to travel and explore a bit more than most of us.
	Is that so?
	Well, yeah, in the past, Howard, I worked for a couple of global companies as an IT engineer, ICT engineer, and basically worked all over the world in America, Europe, the Far East.
	And a lot of the time I would be away for like, you know, months at a time.
	And I would, in my spare time, it would give me the chance to visit local sort of sacred sites or areas of interest in my world travels.
	So it was a great time in my life.
	I'd always been interested in history, ancient history, particularly obviously the ancient Egyptian civilization.
	So yeah, my world travels as an ICT engineer allowed me to do that, and it was great.
	It didn't cost me a bean to travel the world and see all these fabulous, fabulous sites.
	So yeah, it was great.
	But like most people, I have to work for a living.
	People think you write books and that's it.
	But I don't know.
	I still work in IT engineering.
	And very useful too.
	If you want to get your message out, you've got a very good website, by the way.
	I'm guessing that's all your own work.
	But if you want to get the message out, that's a big help, isn't it?
	Well, absolutely.
	I believe communication is key.
	I've actually just finished working on some presentations that I'm doing at the moment to animate and To narrate some of my past presentations because a lot of them in the past, it's just visual, there's no audio.
	So the narrations, the presentations that I'm doing now are more audio.
	Me narrating the actual visuals with music and so forth within the actual presentation, which is something I hadn't done before.
	But yeah, you get to learn what is best and what works best for people.
	And you must have had a lifelong interest before this in Egyptology.
	Maybe you saw the, I don't know how old you are, but if you're of a certain vintage, you would have seen the Tutankhamun exhibition in London or certainly seen the media reports about it.
	Is that what fired your interest?
	Well, I've been fascinated by the ancient Egyptian culture since I was very, very young.
	I'm talking about probably since I was about six or seven, you know.
	And in particular, I was fascinated by the pyramids and the whole concept that these monumental structures were built for just one guy.
	I just thought it was amazing.
	How could that be?
	And I was basically hooked on the whole Egyptian thing, you know, from a very, very young age.
	I actually missed the Tutankhamun exhibition.
	I did want to see it, but strangely enough, the situation conspired against me at the time, and I didn't actually get to see it.
	I know it's, I think, I'm not sure, it may still be traveling, I'm not sure at the moment, but I missed it when it was in London at the time, so that was unfortunate.
	And we're talking about the better part of three or four decades ago.
	It's a long, long time.
	But I can remember it making a huge impact on me because I remember thinking, even as a boy, how could it be that a civilization such a long time ago, when school teaches you that previous civilizations are all inferior to you, but how can a civilization so long ago apparently know so much?
	Well, it's not even that how did they know so much?
	It's like they seem to know a lot more at the beginning of the civilization than they did later on.
	This is one of the great mysteries about the ancient Egyptian civilization, particularly if we go back to the early Old Kingdom period.
	We find that this is a period when they were building giant dressed stone pyramids built with monolithic blocks.
	And after that, they started building them with much smaller stones or mud bricks.
	But the previous, the older culture did it the hard way, did it more complicated way.
	So this is one of the riddles, one of the puzzles.
	Why is that?
	How did that come to be?
	There must be some logical explanation for that.
	And again, that's one of the things that fired my imagination to try and answer that question.
	How is it that a civilization, not that long out of the Stone Age, managed to build these monumental structures in stone at that time?
	Now, I'm not saying, Howard, that we couldn't do this in our civilization today.
	If there was the political will and the capital, yeah, of course we could build, we could replicate these structures, the giant, you know, the Great Pyramid, for example, yeah, we could replicate it with an awful lot of money and an awful lot of political willpower.
	Yeah, it could be done.
	But I don't ever see that that would happen.
	But yeah, we could do it.
	But the point is, we're much more highly advanced technically or technological civilization than the ancient Egyptians of the 4th, 3rd, 4th dynasty were.
	But yet they managed to conceive this monumental structure, which was the largest human structure and the tallest human structure since I think the Eiffel Tower until they built the Eiffel Tower.
	You know, so it's incredible that a civilization, as I said, not long out of the Stone Age, was able to do that.
	And as you hint, there are two parts to the question, aren't there?
	There's a how question and there's a why question.
	Why would you want to do that?
	And people over the years have speculated, well, because it was a hierarchical civilization, the pyramids were built as tombs.
	They were built to venerate the great and the good.
	And that's not necessarily the theory that you go along with, is it?
	Well, I was going to say there's a couple of things here, but there's a number of things here.
	Yeah, that's the mainstream theory that the giant pyramids were the royal tomb of the reigning pharaoh or the reigning king.
	And his body was placed in that structure where it would transfigure and become transform into what's called an ak, which could then ascend up into the heavens.
	And the whole idea, according to Egyptologists, the whole idea of the pyramid is that it was the engine of transformation for the king's soul to transform into an ak so that it could ascend to the stars and take its place among the gods.
	The thing is, the ancient Egyptians themselves tell us that there's two things.
	They tell us that, yeah, if we take the chronicles that were preserved by the Arab culture, the Arabic culture, I mean, the Arabs preserved lots of ancient writings, ancient writings of Plato.
	For example, the Arabs Preserved, and when Europe went into the Dark Ages and then came through the Dark Ages into the Renaissance, the works of Plato came back to the West through the writings and the Arab Chronicles.
	They preserved all those works from ancient times, from the Greek writings 2,000 years ago, but they also preserved the ancient Egyptian writings from much further back as well.
	And in those writings, in the Arab Chronicles, the book of Murtade basically tells us that the pyramids were built as some kind of storehouse or ark, if you like.
	What he tells us is that the pyramid had two functions, as an ark and to bury the kings.
	And I don't disagree with that.
	I think that is actually right.
	I think both functions are right.
	Whereas Egyptologists basically emphasize only the tomb function.
	But the ancient texts that have come down to us speak of two functions.
	It speaks of some kind that were built originally, conceived as an ark, and they were also used as tombs.
	So that's what the ancient Arab chronicles tell us.
	So why would they build these structures as arks?
	Yes, in other words, were they aware that their own civilization was perhaps under threat and how could that be?
	Well, that's what the Arab chronicles tell us.
	What happened apparently, now I personally think this happened long before the Fourth Dynasty.
	I think the Stuxas are much, much older than the Fourth Dynasty.
	I think they're probably, and I've got reasons to believe this, they're about 19,000 years old.
	Now, that might sound a bit out there, but I've got reason to believe that that date is probably the correct date for the giant, the first pyramids, not for the later ones, just for the very first ones that the ancient Egyptians built.
	Now, what happened?
	Something happened in the heavens.
	This is what we're told in the Arab Chronicle.
	Something happened in the heavens.
	The stars apparently moved out of their normal course, their normal passage across the skies.
	And the king asked his astronomer priests, what does this mean?
	So the assembled priests basically informed the king that it means in 300 years' time there will be a great deluge which will drown the entire country.
	And that will be followed by deadly drought across the entire land.
	And King Saurad said then, okay, what we're going to do is we're going to build pyramids.
	And inside these pyramids, we are going to store everything that the country, the kingdom will need to regenerate itself after the worst effects of the flood had passed.
	We're going to use these pyramids, build pyramids as arts.
	And inside these pyramids, we're going to store seeds, all types of seeds, wheat, barley, corn, all sorts of grains, tomato, chili peppers, everything that type of seed they're going to put inside these things.
	So it's the sort of ancient equivalent of backing up your hard drives.
	Well, it's something we are actually doing ourselves today, Howard.
	In the Arctic Circle back in 2008, our civilization opened the Svalbard Global Seed Bank.
	It's essentially a gene bank of seeds for every known seed from all across the world.
	And it's preserved in the Svalbard Global Seed Bank in the Arctic Circle for just such an occurrence that some disaster that we are not anticipating just overwhelms the earth.
	Some global catastrophe that we are not anticipating overtakes the earth and our civilization is devastated.
	The Svalbard Global Seed Vault is there to ensure that we have the means to reseed the world with our main crops, our main seeds.
	The ancient Egyptians weren't doing anything different to something we're actually doing ourselves.
	It's not a rocket science if you think your civilization's in some kind of danger, some kind of peril, to take these pre-emptive steps to try and at least ensure a recovery of some sort afterwards.
	And I think that is what the ancient Egyptians were doing with the first 16 pyramids that they constructed.
	So we've tended to think about them, and I've certainly tended to think about them as being, I mean, however they came to be built and whoever may have directed them and however the blueprints were come up with, I've tended to think about them over the years as being a way of venerating the great and the good.
	And from what you're saying, actually, we've missed the point.
	They're much more about a civilization trying to dodge a bullet and make sure that when the bullet has been dodged, it comes back.
	Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
	But what I'm also saying is that in time, these 16 pyramids, what I call it collectively, these 16 pyramids, I call it collectively Project Osiris.
	And I'll come back to this later.
	But collectively, these 16 pyramids would serve as arks.
	But in time, having protected the nation and managed to ensure The rebirth of the kingdom after this deluge had come to pass.
	Now, it didn't actually need to come to pass.
	The ancient Egyptians didn't know if it would or it wouldn't, but you know, they weren't taking any chances.
	They believed this was going to come to pass, this great deluge of thought was going to occur.
	So, they took pre-emptive steps to, as you say, dodge a bullet.
	And in time, having dodged that bullet through these structures, these structures facilitated the rebirth of the kingdom.
	Not the rebirth of the king, the rebirth of the kingdom, but the rebirth of the king would essentially be a religious concept that would arise afterwards as these giant pyramids that saved the kingdom became sanctified in a way became,
	in a sense, a religion started to rise up, that these structures were the means to secure rebirth, these structures were the means to secure an afterlife.
	And a religion essentially arose out of that idea.
	But the idea originally wasn't about a rebirth of the king, it was about a rebirth of the kingdom.
	But in time, it evolved into a religion which became about the rebirth of the king.
	And so these early pyramids would be repurposed, if you like, as tombs, reappropriated by the kings of the third, fourth dynasties, you know, as their tomb.
	And we have evidence of this.
	You know, many of the pyramids that we've opened up, we've found fragments of bone, the odd finger bone or toe bone or forearm, piece of forearm or bit of a skull.
	We've found these fragments in pyramids.
	But all of them we know have come from intrusive burials, later intrusive burials.
	You know, so this is what I think has confused the whole matter.
	The original function was to build arks to ensure the rebirth of the kingdom.
	Having done so, the structures became venerated, a religion started to form around them, particularly around the god Osiris.
	And, you know, the structures then became the means by which the king himself could enter into the afterlife.
	In a way, it's almost like what we often do here.
	We venerate and we almost worship that which has gone before because we tend to think it is in some way superior.
	That sounds like it's exactly what happened with them.
	They built these structures to preserve their civilization.
	It worked.
	They thought the mojo about that was very good.
	So they became a spiritual focus, but only later.
	That's exactly what I'm saying.
	And, you know, there's, again, there's evidence within the pyramid, some of the pyramids themselves, which actually point to that actually happening.
	And, for example, the second pyramid at Giza.
	This is the pyramid of Cafra.
	It's the one in the middle at Giza.
	And it looks larger than taller than the Great Pyramid, but it's just because it's on slightly higher ground.
	But inside that pyramid, Howard, in 1818, the first modern explorer to enter the main chamber in that pyramid in modern times was a guy called Giovanni Belzoni.
	Now, when Belzoni entered the chamber of this pyramid, he got to the granite box.
	Egyptologists call this a sarcophagus.
	Now, the lid was still on the box, and it was just slightly ragged along one side, the front edge.
	And Bolzoni managed to get the lid off this box.
	And when he opened it, there was something in it.
	It wasn't a body of any pharaoh, but there was something in it.
	Have a guess.
	I mean, this is all very Raiders of the Lost Ark.
	I'm not sure.
	A book?
	A tablet?
	A tablet of stone?
	Well, that would be good if it was.
	No, what Bilzoni actually found in this stone box, which Egyptologists call the sarcophagus, was nothing more than Egyptian earth, dirt, just plain earth with some stones.
	And it hadn't been got to in the intervening years.
	You know, somebody hadn't actually put that there in place of something else.
	Well, this is what Egyptologists believe because they tie into the whole idea.
	They have bought in Hookline and Sinker to the whole idea that, well, these structures were tombs.
	There must have been a body in there at one time.
	And somebody stole the body and then somebody else came by later and filled the box up with earth.
	You know, to me, no, that's fundamentally wrong, that whole concept.
	You know, why not actually just treat what's in the box as the actual evidence that that was the original content?
	So the idea was let's save something that's basic and fundamental to us in case something happens that makes a change and perhaps not be so good.
	So let's save a sample of our earth so that people coming later can see what it was like?
	Well, not really so much that, Howard.
	It's more really, I think the box, they found some fragments of bone inside the earth and digging through it the next day.
	It was fragments of bone from a bull.
	And the bull in later times symbolised the god Osiris.
	There was also probably some seeds in this earth.
	We don't have the earth anymore.
	Bolzoni emptied it unfortunately And he sent the bones to the Royal College of Surgeons in London.
	Now, unfortunately, the bones have been lost during the Blitz in the Second World War.
	The college was bombed, badly bombed, and the fragments of bone were lost.
	But anyway, this box is a symbolic, it was a centerpiece of a symbolic gesture of the rebirth of the earth, putting seeds in a box of earth.
	Because what happens when you put seeds in earth is that the seed grows.
	How does it grow?
	Well, nobody knows.
	It's just a miracle.
	It's some kind of entity that we cannot fathom.
	But this is a thing that the ancient Egyptians called Ka.
	And Ka was part of the ancient Egyptian spirit.
	And it's that intangible, untouchable thing that makes a seed suddenly bloom into life through the earth.
	So looked at from our perspective today, it's just something you stick seeds in and they grow.
	Looked at from somebody else's perspective a long time ago, this is magic.
	Yes, absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	But I believe that it's probably more than that.
	It was part of a deep Chithonic ritual.
	Basically, because what I'm saying is that the first 16 pyramids actually represent the body of Osiris, the ancient Egyptian god of rebirth, the ancient Egyptian god of agriculture.
	Now, and he was the most important Egyptian god of all, even more important than Ra.
	So the god Osiris, there's a legend that comes down to us from Plutarch, which tells us of the myth of Osiris, how his evil brother, Osiris was the king and his evil brother wanted to take his throne.
	So his evil brother cut Osiris' body up into 16 pieces and scattered the body parts across the land of Egypt.
	And Osiris's wife, Isis, traveled the land of Egypt looking for the body parts to bind them all together again with linen.
	Now if you look at the pyramid texts, these are the oldest religious texts that we have in the world, the ancient Egyptian pyramid text from the fifth dynasty, that's roughly about 2300 BC.
	It talks about Osiris and it tells us quite specifically this line.
	It says Osiris is the pyramid.
	The pyramid is Osiris.
	The construction is Osiris.
	That's what it tells us.
	So it says quite plainly, quite specifically, the pyramid is Osiris.
	I happen to be looking in the book, very famous book, The Complete Pyramids, by Dr. Mark Lehner, an American Egyptologist.
	And in that book, there's a list of the first 19 pyramids.
	That's the first giant stone pyramids that the ancient Egyptians built.
	Unfortunately, three of them were never completed.
	So you're down to just 16 pyramids.
	And then a light bulb moment happened.
	Wait a minute.
	16 completed pyramids.
	Mark Leonard's book, the pyramid text, the pyramid is Osiris, then Plutarch's tale of Osiris, his body was cut into 16 parts.
	Couldn't it be that the first 16 completed pyramids actually represented the body of Osiris?
	So that was my light bulb moment, Howard.
	And what I did then was I got a map from Google Earth of Egypt, of the Memphite area in northern Egypt.
	And on the map, I plotted where all these pyramids were, these first 16 completed pyramids.
	And you know what happened?
	What I found was when I plotted these on the map, it created a figure, a stick man figure, an outline figure of a person with a very distinctive crown and very distinctive sort of arms.
	The figure of Osiris, his crown is very unique and distinctive.
	It's got three prongs at the top with the center one slightly taller.
	And he always has his arms crossed with a crook and flail, one in each hand.
	And this is what you end up with when you plot these first 16 pyramids onto the ground, you know, onto a map of Egypt.
	Has anybody made that conclusion before?
	No, nobody'd ever done it.
	Why do you think they haven't?
	Because I don't think anybody, no pun intended, but I don't think anybody quite joined the dots in the way that I've done in this book.
	You know, so that to me was the body of Osiris was effectively the first 16 pyramids scattered across the land of Egypt.
	Now, this brings us to another question, though, doesn't it?
	And this is the one that a lot of people have got caught up with in recent years.
	How could they do such a thing?
	How could they map on such a scale when they couldn't do what we could do?
	They can't do Google Earth unless they had help from somebody else or something else.
	Well, when I say it maps the pyramids, the first 16 pyramids, now, if you go to, for example, Abu Rawash, that's the most northern pyramid, and you look south towards Giza, it's maybe about 19 kilometers away.
	You can actually see them.
	You can actually see the Giza pyramids from Abu Rawash.
	And if you go to Giza and look south, you can see Saqqara, where the step pyramid is.
	And if you go to the step pyramid at Saqqara and look south, you can see the pyramids of Dashur, the bent pyramid, the red pyramid.
	so you can actually go from point to point and you can actually see the next pyramids in the distance.
	So, what I'm saying is that they weren't creating, it may have been that they were plotting these pyramids on the ground.
	Obviously, they had to build the pyramids near to the local quarries.
	They had to build them on the high ground, and that's what they did, anticipating a flood.
	So, they built all the pyramids in the high plateaus close to good quarries.
	So, you know, basically by doing that, it formed a shape.
	And what I'm saying is that the shape of Osiris came from what they had done, not the other way around.
	If you see what I'm saying, they didn't have a shape of Osiris and map it on the ground.
	What I'm saying is the form of Osiris came out of the structures that they had built.
	And they didn't know what they were doing.
	No, no, they were building recovery vaults.
	No, no, I'm saying that in terms of the shape that is mapped out in this way, they wouldn't have been aware of that.
	Well, they may or they may not have, but they could have been aware.
	Let's suppose they've completed the job.
	First 16 pyramids are built, and then somebody says, right, well, it'll be good for us to have a map of where all these pyramids are relative to each other.
	So a person goes to the very north to Abu Rawas, plots that on a sheet of papyrus.
	In the distance, he can see the pyramids of Giza.
	So he plots them and he walks towards them.
	You can do this.
	You can see them and you can walk towards them.
	So you can plot them as you're actually heading towards them.
	You know where they are.
	Each of the pyramids are relative to each other.
	These first 16 pyramids.
	And so he just basically plots them on a piece of papyrus.
	And he turns it up.
	Oh, that actually looks like a person.
	And this is how Osiris is born, the actual figurine of Osiris.
	Do you think that there was some master plan behind this?
	Some intelligence beyond ours?
	No, I think it was the ancient Egyptian civilization.
	But when I say that, I qualify that.
	I'll say what I call the very ancient Egyptian civilization.
	The ancient Egyptians themselves, Howard, tell us that their civilization is tens of thousands of years older than what Egyptologists tell us today.
	You know, the ancient Egyptians talk about the ages of the gods, the demigods, the sages, the Shemsu-Hor, the followers of Horus, right down to the mortal kings.
	And each of these different ages, you know, it was thousands of years long, sometimes tens of thousands of years long.
	We're talking about a civilization that tells us that they're themselves, that their civilization was around about 40,000 years old.
	So I'm talking about a civilization that is now lost to us.
	The author, best-selling author Graham Hancock, he calls it the lost civilization.
	And this civilization, like Graham, I believe, was right across the world, and it had a technology, it developed a technology or developed technology to a level where it could move monolithic blocks with ease.
	As the floodwaters rose, because if what I'm saying is correct, and these pyramids are 19,000 years old, and I show in the book, I give evidence in the book to show that, if I'm correct, then that corresponds with the time when our Earth went into the Ice Age.
	That was the beginning of the end of the Ice Age 19,000 years ago.
	The great ice caps in Europe and North America went into rapid meltdown and the seas rose.
	From then they were about 400 feet lower.
	So a lot of land, coastal lands, 19,000 years ago are no longer here.
	The civilization that lived along the coasts back then are completely gone all over the world.
	So what you're saying is that these people have a longer history than we are aware of or have been aware of.
	That allowed them to evolve to a degree that we haven't also been aware of, that we couldn't conceive of.
	They were, in other words, they were cleverer than we thought they were.
	And because they were that clever, they didn't need extraterrestrial help or any other kind of help.
	The process of evolution allowed them to do the things that they did.
	Yeah, I'm saying we are, as Graham Hancock says, we are a species with amnesia.
	We have lost a big chunk of our history because of this calamity that the Earth went through at the end of the Ice Age.
	The Earth went through catastrophic changes all over the world.
	And a civilization that existed on the Earth, along the coastal fringes of the Earth's continents, has been lost under 400 feet of water.
	And what that civilization, the knowledge, I certainly believe they had knowledge of some sort that allowed them to, as I said, have engineering capabilities that are quite breathtaking.
	When you look at the serapium, the granite boxes in there, it's just incredible.
	When you look at the fine basalt vases, tiny, tiny Basalt vases that they were able to create.
	They obviously had technology of some description that they obviously was passed out.
	Some of it anyway was passed along the line, but a lot of it, I think, was lost.
	We still struggle to figure out how they built these structures and move these monolithic blocks and carve these massive, massive granite boxes in the seraphim.
	So some people have said the missing link is ET.
	And what you're saying is, no, the missing link is what we've forgotten.
	We cannot conceive of it because it's been lost.
	It's been lost.
	It's been lost.
	And, you know, that is what happens.
	You know, in time, I'm talking about 19,000 years ago, Howard.
	You know, there would be very little.
	If these people had iron tools back then, we wouldn't know of it because every single one of them will be under 400 feet of water and it would have rusted away to nothing.
	It would have rusted away to powder.
	You know, the ancient Egyptians of the fourth dynasty, they probably came across these structures at Giza and were awestruck by them and probably did their own reparations to the structures, to the very ancient structures that they found.
	This is how I think that the carbon dating reports that they find from the Great Pyramid, where they took charcoal out of the gypsum mortar between some of the external blocks, carbon dates to about 2700 BC, some are 3,500 BC.
	So Scott, we're actually seeing a fascinating, very ancient civilization that could do amazing things through the prism of a later civilization who asked many of the questions about them that we've been asking, made assumptions, did repairs to their structures, and that is how the distortion of what those very ancient people were about has arisen.
	Yeah, that's exactly it.
	And of course, you know, they would have had legends passed down to them about what these structures were, or these structures were rebirth machines.
	You know, and, you know, the king of the fourth dynasty, Khufu, a rebirth machine, hmm, I'll have some of that action, you know, and he uses it as his tomb.
	You know, so, and then what we find as well, Howard, is later dynasties in Egypt, what you would find that they would do, you know, coming back to the box of earth that Giovanni Bilzoni found in G2, they would, later dynasties would make, would have this festival of Koak, it's called, and this was an Osirian festival celebrating the rebirth of Osiris after his death, or his revivification after his death.
	And what they would do as part of the celebrations, they would take their own ceremonial stone box about 20 inches long, and sometimes they were made of wood, and into this box, they would fill it with earth.
	The people would fill these boxes with earth, and they would sprinkle some seed in the box, they put a lid on it, and then they would bury it in the ground, just below ground level, and stick a large rock on top of it.
	This is what they did.
	What I'm saying is these people in the later dynasties are mimicking what their forefathers did with the Great Pyramid, with the box of earth that Giovanni Bilzoni found inside, you know, the G2 and the Pyramid of Cafrew.
	They were doing the same thing because they knew what these structures were for.
	That's why they were burying small boxes of earth in the ground and placing a rock on top of it.
	It was symbolic of what the pyramid actually was for.
	It was about the regeneration of the earth, not of the kingdom, not of the king.
	And what they would also do is they would create a thing called a corn mummy.
	This was a mud, mud basically shaped into the shape of Osiris.
	And inside the mud, they would place grain, seeds of various types, and then they would bind it with linen, like a mummy wrapping.
	That's what he called a corn mummy or a grain mummy.
	And they're about 18 inches tall.
	Sometimes they put them in these small stone boxes.
	Now, these corn mummies were filled with grain.
	It's the body of Osiris, yeah.
	That's what the first 16 pyramids were.
	They were the body of Osiris filled with grain.
	You know, so the later festival of Coac, they were doing the same thing symbolically.
	Just like today, you know, in some parts of the world today, the Christian festival of Easter, you know, kids would have an Easter egg and they would roll it down a hill, which was supposedly symbolic of the stone being rolled away from the tomb of Christ.
	You know, so we in our culture do similar religious things that are based supposedly on actual events.
	You know, so this is what I'm seeing the later culture of ancient Egypt were doing with these corn mummies and these small stone boxes filled with earth.
	They were mimicking or they were commemorating the entire Chethonic function of the first 16 pyramids as the body of Osiris.
	And we actually have, if you take the first pyramid at Saqqara, the steppe pyramid, this is the first pyramid, giant pyramid, stone pyramid that they ever built.
	If you look underneath that pyramid, Howard, the first explorers in the early 20th century, in the pyramid complex at Saqqara, there's literally kilometers of passageways underneath it and various galleries of all sorts.
	And in these passageways, the first explorers in the early 20th century were walking shin-deep through grain, passages of grain filled with grain.
	They found 40,000 vessels underneath this pyramid.
	Again, you know, most of them were smashed.
	These vessels were smashed.
	What I think happened there was that later looters basically found these vessels probably filled with the grain at the time, broke the lid off them, emptied the grain, found there was no treasure there, smashed the pot so that they know which ones have searched.
	So this is why we have grain scattered everywhere and a pile of smashed, 40,000 smashed vessels.
	These were arks, these were recovery vaults, which basically the kingdom hoped could ensure its rebirth after this calamity was about to befall it.
	So we have to think differently about this whole period and about these people.
	It almost, as I've been talking with you, as I've been listening to what you've been saying and fascinated by it, I've almost thought it's like the way we regard antiques today.
	You know, you go into some posh homes in the UK and in the corner they might have a spinning machine, which is an object of interest for people to look at and talk about.
	You know, it's almost something to talk about at dinner parties.
	But in the era when it was conceived, it was a spinning machine.
	It was a working object.
	The only difference is time.
	Time has changed the way that we view that object.
	Well, that's right.
	And what I'm saying is that we have to go back to the original source documents.
	What do they tell us?
	What do they tell us about these structures?
	Well, they tell us there's two functions that these early sources tell us.
	One source that they were arcs, it was a recovery system for the kingdom built for the deluge and to preserve knowledge and they were used as tombs.
	I believe both of these functions are correct from the ancient sources that tell us this.
	Egyptologists only accept one of them.
	Well, I imagine you've already had some flack from some of them, have you?
	Oh, all the time, yeah.
	It's constant.
	But, you know, what can I say?
	Have they found a body in any of these pyramids?
	No.
	The only body, they've found some intrusive burials in these pyramids, but that's what the texts tell us, ancient texts tell us, they were used as tombs, yeah, for intrusive burials.
	Have they found vast amounts of grain in these pyramids?
	Yes.
	So what do you intend to do with this work now, Scott?
	What's your plan for 2015?
	Well, I'm working on a new book at the moment, Howard.
	It's called The Great Pyramid Hoax.
	And it's about the discovery in 1837 of some painted marks in some hitherto hidden chambers above the king's chamber of the Great Pyramid.
	And these marks are used by Egyptologists to basically prove, effectively prove that the structure was built by a guy called Khufu in the year 2550 BC.
	These marks were discovered by a guy called Colonel Howard Weiss.
	And basically I've managed to locate, Howard Weiss wrote a book about his discovery of these marks in the Great Pyramid.
	And what I've done since, some of it's in my current book, I have to say, what I found is Howard Weiss's actual field notes, his handwritten field notes.
	And let's just say Howard, they make for some very interesting reading at all.
	Very interesting reading and not at all what he actually wrote in his published book.
	There's a very different story in his private notes.
	And that's where I'm at just now in writing.
	So you were saying that what was discovered there was misrepresented?
	Well, absolutely.
	Okay, for what reason, do you think?
	Well, we could speculate there endlessly, but probably, I mean, he was a wealthy man, so it wouldn't have been for riches.
	I don't particularly think it was for riches.
	But Howard Weiss, you could tell in his published book that he was almost desperate to make an important discovery because other people in Giza at the time, you know, Caviglia, Bolzone, you know, all these other people were making really significant discoveries.
	So it's all about prestige.
	Prestige, yes.
	And Weiss was desperate.
	I mean, he literally says this in his published books, to make an important discovery.
	He was desperate to find the body of the king in one of these chambers that he was opening up.
	And it says that he was desperate to make an important discovery.
	And it didn't happen for him.
	You know, so there's that aspect.
	There's the other aspect as well.
	It seems he was a fairly sort of pious man, a sort of fairly religious man.
	And it would be important to him and to the church at the time.
	Remember, 1837, you know, you're talking about a time when the church, the Christian church, had pretty much control over a lot of aspects of people's lives, day-to-day lives.
	You know, this is a time when you're 20 odd years away from the publication of The Origin of Species by Darwin.
	So you're living in a completely different era when the church was still pretty Powerful.
	And the church was still nervous about what could be discovered in these pyramids that might prove, for example, that the date of creation had been worked out to be something like 4004 BC.
	What if something's found which contradicts the date of creation?
	So the Great Pyramid had to be dated to within the date of creation, to 2500 BC.
	And that's what happened.
	What a great story that's going to be when you tell it.
	Scott, we'll talk again.
	Thank you very much for coming on here at very short notice.
	If people want to know about your work, where do they go?
	Well, they can go to my own site.
	That's www.scottcrichton.co.uk.
	There's lots of presentations and other photographs and gallery, other different things there.
	Or they can go to my publisher's Inner Traditions, Bear and Company.
	Or they can go to any online bookstore or any good hard copy bookstore.
	Get out there and support your hard copy bookstores, folks.
	Before they go.
	We don't want them to disappear like some ancient civilization, do we?
	Absolutely not.
	True enough.
	Scott Crichton, thank you very much for coming on.
	It's been a pleasure, Howard.
	Thanks very much.
	Scott Crichton, I'll put a link to him and his work on my website, www.theunexplained.tv.
	And now the second of the two guests on this show, very controversial man.
	See what you think of him.
	I know I'm going to get email about this.
	His name is Tony Topping.
	And this is part of our conversation.
	I'm giving talks.
	I go around the UK giving my talks.
	I'm currently writing a book at this moment in time.
	And also, when I get a chance, I appear on the TV when I can, just doing all kinds of, just contributing to the subject.
	And I'm looking in that sense.
	I did have a responsible job, which I did for 12 years.
	It was a very responsible one.
	And I left that.
	And all through doing this responsible job, I was kind of like I had the UFOs coming in over the house.
	We had it.
	That's how it really all started.
	It started in.
	What was your responsible job, Tony?
	My responsible job.
	We'll just say that I worked in a call center because I can't go into any further details as to what it was.
	And people go, oh, my God.
	Oh, my God.
	What was that all about?
	But it was a bit more than working in a call center, but I can't really go into details about it because it involved a level of security issues.
	So I can't go into any details.
	Okay, well, I've got some information about you here.
	And this comes from your own website.
	So I'm guessing it's right here.
	You say here, my experiences directed me on collision course with secret covert interests who monitored my interactions with UFOs.
	I am the victim of secretive harassment by unaccountable agents from an unselected secret police in the UK.
	That's pretty heavy stuff.
	What does that mean?
	It is, isn't it?
	And what does it mean?
	Well, it basically means that you, in the most simplest of terms, you have individuals out there who are aware that certain individuals within the United Kingdom are being monitored and are having interaction with UFOs and the associated service that goes on behind that.
	They were, in fact, aware, Howard, before I was that I was having interactions with UFOs because their job is to monitor people very closely who are having interaction with them.
	And this happened to me, it happened to me at the start of two years of age, really.
	But it actually really, in earnest, started in 1999 when I had a UFO fly over the house, fly over the housing estate, and it illuminated a TV antenna.
	Yeah, that's right.
	you the only one to see it?
	I was.
	But what was interesting to know was I've been dreaming about it about two weeks before it turned up.
	And between me and you, Howard, of course, there's obviously nobody else.
	I'll tell you this in secret.
	I'm expecting another one to turn up in the next month or so to be filmed.
	I'm expecting it.
	And if I were a betting man, I'd get you to William Hills and put a fiver on it that something else might turn up.
	So I'm not saying it's just because it's a circus, Howard.
	And what is baffling for me with all this is that there's this little show going on behind the scenes with me whereby these UFOs are coming in and I assure you that they're not from round here.
	It's that simple.
	We put it into simple terms.
	They're not from round here.
	Granted, there is going to be 80% of them that are asteroids, meteors, satellites, UAV, drones, whatever.
	But the 20% isn't.
	And it's the 20% that these people who targeted me were interested in.
	And I started, for example, how this is probably You leave your broadcasting studio and you get an answering machine message.
	And there's somebody you hear sat in a car going, oh, there's Howard.
	He's just leaving the studio now.
	Yeah, there he goes.
	He's got his bag with him.
	Yeah.
	Oh, he'll be having tea tonight, won't he?
	Yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	We'll see where he's going.
	Those kind of answering machine messages were left, but it's a unique form of overt and covert surveillance that they were doing.
	I was actually, when they left me the answering machine message, I was coming out with my local Tesco's.
	It's to let you know that you're being watched and observed.
	And it's a scandal, frankly.
	Talk to me, though, about 1999, when you had the first experience, you say.
	And you say that other people saw this, but you are the one who were the target of this experience.
	Yes.
	But was life ordinary before that for you?
	Life was never ordinary with me before that point.
	Life was really never, I mean, I went to, But it is when in London in about 1996, when things started getting strange, whereby we had this in Parade Street, Paddington, we had this dot of light that I thought was nearly going to crash into a block of flats.
	And I remember running towards a fire engine that was parked in the rush hour traffic grid lot.
	And I was just about to say, just about To run up and go, my God, that thing's going to crash into it.
	And it vanished, just completely vanished.
	And what happened was when I was living in London, we had this little dot of light following me everywhere.
	It was quite surreal.
	And what they're capable of doing now is traveling at tremendous speed and going to a dead stop quite easily.
	I'll clarify, if you remind me further on in the interview, what that dot of light is all about.
	But in the meantime, what we then had, that was in 1996 in London, and then we had various incidents happen that I could not understand.
	I then came back to Selby, North Yorkshire in 1999, 96, sorry.
	And I was stood outside my garden in July, 96, feeling pretty low about things.
	Next minute I know there was this orange flash.
	My mother remembers it quite well because it woke her up.
	It was one in the morning.
	These two dots of light appear and kind of like merge into one.
	And then I had this kind of dark shadow pass over me, which was pretty frightening.
	And all kinds of crazy stuff began to happen from that point onwards.
	Why do you think you're a focus for this, Tony?
	It's probably genetically related.
	I would think it's genetically related.
	It's acclimatization related.
	It's the fact that there's certain abilities possibly that they might be interested in, that I may possess that I'm even not aware of.
	To apply it in its most logical sense, as a lot of people who've had these strange goings on will say, they are holding a deck of cards, then they have no idea of the deck of cards they are holding, but everybody else does.
	So I'm holding a deck of cards, Howard.
	The first thing to realize is that you're not an ambassador.
	I don't have a messiah complex.
	You're not the ambassador to them.
	Real life and what goes on with these UFOs behind the scenes can get hair-raising and very frightening.
	And so I think it's important that the information you give out about them is in a responsible way so that people don't get frightened because it can get hair-raising with them.
	And so what you see on the internet and what's written about them are two entirely different things to what goes on in real life when you're having interaction with them.
	And you say that you're not the first person that I've spoken to who said that they had interaction with UFOs and beings and all the rest of it.
	That's right.
	In your case, what happened?
	What sorts of interaction do you have?
	Yeah, well, in my case, the interactions are very tricky to put it into words, Howard, because it's the interactions that I have.
	I mean, I kept journals from the year 2000 to present, really.
	And there's no other way of putting it.
	What I'll do is I'll probably, I think the easiest way to do it is one interaction that I had was on the morning before going to film with Channel 4 last year.
	Now, we have to say, Channel 4, for those who are outside the UK, national television station.
	And I do remember seeing you on television.
	I'm sure I do.
	And I'm sure that they were very, at the end of the day, because they sort of have to be, but they were very dismissive about you, I think, at the end of the day.
	Isn't that right?
	Let me think now.
	The mainstream media have been pretty good with me, actually.
	The alternative media have censored me.
	Alex Jones, InfoWars channel censored me.
	The mainstream media, on the whole, have been pretty good.
	I did have a bad experience with the BBC, but that's another, a completely other story altogether.
	I learned a lot from that experience.
	But the situation with it, how it is, that the documentary hasn't been aired yet.
	It's not been aired yet for a reason.
	Well, I'm thinking of something else then.
	Yeah, yeah, that's right.
	Now, what happened was on this Channel 4 documentary is that I was going up to London to meet them outside a prestigious building that deals with matters that are of world affairs nature.
	I won't mention who they are.
	And we filmed out there.
	Now, interesting, what was interesting was on that morning before we filmed out there.
	It's one of many interactions, one of many visions that I've had.
	But on the morning, around about 6 a.m., I kind of like was asleep.
	And I kind of like had this staggering vision of these, of what can only be described as a triangle craft hovering outside my house, hovering over the roof.
	This is like in a dream state.
	And then all of a sudden, these kind of two big triangle craft just appearing.
	And these three blonde gentlemen, I can only describe them as blonde and blue-eyed.
	And I'll go into the bit about the Zulu nation knowing about these individuals.
	Ancient tribal folklore knows of them.
	The ancient tribes of Africa actually know about these individuals.
	So what happens is that these three individuals are speaking to someone, but I've no idea who they're speaking to, but they're mouthing somebody to someone and I cannot hear them.
	The next stage of the game is that they display these two great big clocks.
	One says five to midnight and the other says 15 minutes to midnight.
	And it's an emphasis on the clock that is going at 15 minutes to midnight.
	This is at the height of the Ukraine situation.
	And they were speaking to someone and then it all went off as if they weren't even there.
	Now, what for me is puzzling is they were speaking to somebody.
	And the question is who?
	So for me, Howard, it's not a question of the incident didn't happen.
	It's a question of they're not from around here.
	Who are they speaking to?
	This coincides actually with an incident in Wiltshire about a year ago with a police sergeant who was on duty who chased three of these blonde males across a field.
	These are what UFO experts called Nordics, aren't they?
	They are.
	Sorry, Howard.
	Yeah, they're called Nordics.
	They're what the Zulu nation refer to as the Wazugu.
	Before they even set their eyes on the Western European male, which the Zulu nation call was, which is us, the Western European male, it was actually meant for blonde aliens from the sky.
	That's what the term in Zulu folklore means, blonde aliens from the sky.
	But you were seeing these Nordics.
	Were people, I know I've asked you this before, but let's go back to it again.
	Did anybody else around you see them?
	Or was it only you?
	No, no, Howard.
	What you've got to remember, I've got to keep it, I'm going to put it, it's a bit mind-blowing.
	What you've got to remember is that for a number of years, since about 1999, it's taken me 40 years to work out what is going on.
	So what's happening is I'm a Covert witness to something else that is going on around me, and I'm possibly the go-between.
	So when you take yourself out of the equation, it's a bit tricky, but when you take yourself out of the equation and realize that you might not be involved in what's going on, they're using, they're doing something else, the whole dynamics of the relationship actually alters.
	It actually alters the whole dynamics of what you're doing.
	And it's interesting to note that the dynamics, therefore, means that you can step back and you can understand what's happening.
	And a lot of incidents have certainly happened.
	In May 2014, that's when these incidents actually happened.
	I'm sorry, Howard, my ham radio set squawking up.
	Can I just stop it a moment?
	Absolutely.
	We're talking with Tony Topping here on The Unexplained.
	What you're hearing may sound outrageous, but he's not the first person to make outrageous claims or seemingly outrageous claims on this show.
	So let's see where we're going this.
	And I can tell you that he has been featured by television, has been featured by various outlets of the media.
	So, you know, we're giving him a chance to say whatever he will say here.
	And Tony, are you back?
	I'm back with you there.
	Okay, Mel.
	So these encounters, I don't want to lose these encounters with the Nordics.
	You say that you're a kind of bystander.
	You're seeing things that perhaps you think you may be on some level that you don't understand part of, but you're not actually participating in them as far as you consciously know.
	Is that right?
	Yes, that's right.
	What is wild about it, Howard, is that they use a continuum to communicate.
	Yeah, so when you see these signals from SETI beaming out to contact aliens, these guys and girls that are coming in that aren't from around here are using a space-time continuum.
	In other words, they are using time and the environment within time, the fourth dimension, to communicate.
	And somebody somewhere has sussed that and they're communicating with them.
	That seems to be what's going on.
	Hence, them communicating with somebody, but not me.
	They're actually.
	This is happening on another level.
	This is somebody here who's cracked the code that allows them to talk or communicate with them.
	And somehow, you, Tony Topping, are seeing and hearing this.
	Correct.
	Correct.
	And mind-blowing as that is, what is even possibly even more far out, Howard, and we're getting into the realms of science fiction, is it doesn't necessarily have to be in the present year of 2015, with it being a space-time continuum.
	Time has no locality, no linear.
	You could be at any point in history communicating with them.
	This is how the game works.
	Now, the thing is, is that this is an area that I'm going into that you wouldn't have heard before on the internet or discussed.
	But what is even more interesting for me is the fact that they are on the periphery of world affairs.
	They knew that these people that weren't from around here, that the Ukraine situation was dramatically escalating.
	Hence the 15 minutes to midnight and the five to midnight.
	They were making their presence felt.
	They're making their presence felt.
	They seem to know the direction that this is going down and it's not a good direction.
	And it's just interesting to see what's happening.
	And I think, Howard, as bizarre as it may seem, that our governments are fully aware of them being not from round here and are fully aware that they are here as well.
	And a lot could be learnt from them.
	I think that that is what happened.
	There's a guy in Sweden on the internet, you know, on YouTube.
	I've forgotten his YouTube address, lives in this little village in Sweden.
	He's had him in his room.
	He's had them parked in his garden just recently, in fact.
	And they indicated to him, he has no reason to make it up.
	It's just an obscure YouTube clip.
	This guy in Sweden just chatting away about it.
	And, you know, he's indicating that they are kind of like from the Andromeda Galaxy, from the Andromeda Galaxy.
	And I have reason to suspect that that's where they come from.
	Of course, my more grounded listeners and my more scientific listeners will say there are an awful lot of deluded and possibly mentally ill people out there, Tony.
	And some of them may perhaps unfairly be wanting to bracket you or try to bracket you in among them.
	What would you say to them?
	Well, this is where we're going to get the situation, Howard, are we, where I'm always going to run the gauntlet.
	What they should be very concerned about is the fact that I've only talked to you about one aspect in one year, in one hour, in a couple of weeks about my interactions.
	If we rewind even further, as I said at the beginning of the interview, we had unaccountable individuals who began stalking me, began deploying mind-invasive technology on me because they were aware that these things were not from around here and they were trying to tap in.
	They were trying to find out what was going on.
	And I was subjected to some very severe neural monitoring and torture by them remotely.
	How do you know that?
	Well, I know it because we've had the...
	Some of it, Howard, is quite in your face.
	There's overt and covert surveillance, what they were using.
	This is in the public domain, by the way.
	It's not just exclusive to your show.
	For example, we had an incident occur in a local pub where a guy, one of these guys, followed me in.
	By the way, you say we.
	Yeah, we.
	I was with some friends.
	We were going out somewhere.
	I was with some friends.
	And he wandered in, this gentleman, and I wandered past him.
	It's in the public domain.
	He ordered a drink and he said something to the woman he was with that only he and I would know regarding what was going on.
	I think I asked you this all these years ago.
	It's coming back to me now when we spoke on the radio.
	You're not hoaxing us, are you?
	No, mate.
	Why would I want to do that?
	Well, people have lots of different reasons.
	Why would I want to do that?
	You know, I make very little money from this.
	What I'm doing is in the public interest, and the cost has been immense.
	The personal cost to me has been immense.
	Why would I risk such personal cost to myself if it wasn't for the public interest?
	Tony Topping, and before him, you heard Scott Crichton.
	Thank you very much for being part of this show, for staying in touch with me, for your support.
	Please, if you can, make a donation to the show.
	Your donation's absolutely vital to keep it going.
	And I promise to be feeling a little better, hopefully by the next time we record a show.
	But these chest infections, as you might know if you've had one recently, A lot of people in the UK have tend to hang on, and once they've got you in their grip, then you stay that way for a while.
	But thank you for your concern and for the emails that you sent about the show.
	If you want to make contact, go to the website www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv.
	That site designed by Adam Cornwell from Creative Hotspot.
	There you can send me feedback or make a donation to the show.
	Until we meet again here on The Unexplained, my name is Howard Hughes.
	I am in London.
	And please stay safe, stay calm, and stay in touch.
	Take care.
	Thank you.

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Edition 194 - Scott Creighton &amp; Tony Topping

Edition 194 - Scott Creighton & Tony Topping