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Dec. 15, 2014 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:08:44
Edition 186 - Chase Kloetzke

This time - the aims, methods and findings of ace US paranormal investigator ChaseKloetzke...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world.
On the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Return of the Unexplained.
Well, we've had a few controversial shows lately, and I've had your very definite and clear thoughts on those shows.
They seem to have split the audience a little, and I want to get into some of this in just a little while, but first just to talk about the weather here as we approach Christmas.
Now, some of the newspapers up here are talking darkly about us facing a big freeze, perhaps the biggest freeze in this country since 1963, which I am told was a very, very bad year.
Well, I certainly remember 1982 into 1983, and I wouldn't like to repeat that in a hurry.
But not all the newspapers are agreed on what we're headed for.
Some think that things are going to be mild and stormy.
So I'll report back about this.
You can tell me what the weather is like where you are.
By the way, when you email me, it's always nice to hear where you're emailing from.
Because I like to, when I read all of your emails, I like to create a little image of the person who's getting in touch.
Now, the last guest is one of a line of several controversial guests we've had, starting with Dr. David Clark, who keeps bringing email in.
Some of you loved his refreshing approach to the paranormal and the unexplained.
Some of you believing that he's a debunker.
Some of you believing that he's just not worth listening to.
And, you know, like I say, some people supporting him.
Harry Cooper and Shark Hunters talking about the escape of Hitler.
Some of you not too happy with his perceived political views, which clearly I was not that aware of when we did the interview, but you seem to know more about that than me.
And also The Return of Dr. Judy Wood.
I don't think I can recall a show where the audience has been as polarised as it was with this show.
Now, I've been accused of being rude to Judy, which I certainly didn't intend to be.
It's just not my way.
You know me by now.
And some of you have accused Judy of being short and rude to me.
Some of you loved what she said about the justifying of the Twin Towers and the possible use of a directed energy weapon to bring them down in the way they came down.
And some of you think that it was a little far-fetched and didn't think this second appearance was as good as the first one.
Let's deal with the rudeness point first of all, though, if I may.
I got an email from somebody, I'm not going to name him, in my own hometown, and it was a little upsetting because he accused me of being snidey with my questioning, of being a typical BBC interviewer, and of poor questions.
Well, I don't really think I'm guilty on any of those counts.
But some of you have said that you thought that I was short with her.
What I was with her was trying to keep her to the point.
And more importantly than that, I wanted to get a view from somebody who I have some respect for, let me tell you.
And I wanted to get an idea of how she'd borne up in the last couple of years, because she is one of the most controversial people, like it or not, in America.
And she put her career and life on the line for her views, and that's why I respect her.
I don't know whether she's right or whether she's wrong about the Twin Towers, but what I do know about Judy Wood is that she has done something that most of us don't do.
She's put herself absolutely on the line, without equivocation, about the things in which she believes.
And she wants to stick to hard science, and that I can fully appreciate.
Now, I'm not going to do shout-outs or read any of your emails about her right now.
We'll leave that for another time.
But I just want you to know that I did not intend to be rude to her.
Judy didn't think that I was rude to her.
We are still in communication.
In fact, we've exchanged messages only today as I record this.
So like I say, all I was trying to do was to get to the heart and soul of her, to see how she'd been affected and how she's feeling now, and whether a couple of years on she's any further forward with this work.
I'm not actually sure whether she is further forward, but I'll report back about that.
What else have we got to say?
Donations, please keep those coming.
The donations have fallen off a bit recently, and they are vital to what we do here.
So as we come to the end of this year, if it's possible for you to make a donation to the unexplained, if you think that it's worth it, that would be great.
And thank you very much indeed.
Now, the guest on this edition of the show is Chase Klutzk.
More about her coming soon, and I hope I pronounced her name right.
She's quite a character.
Recommended to me by my friend Roger Saunders in the United States.
Just to say thank you very much to Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for devising the website and refreshing it and getting the show out and all the other stuff that he's done all year.
Thank you, Adam, for another year of tremendous support.
And you know I couldn't do without you and what you do for me.
Martin, wherever you are, the man who devised the theme tune, please stay safe and please keep in touch.
I hope everything's okay with you.
I haven't heard from you for a long time.
And all of those people who become regular emailers of the Unexplained, as we come towards the end of this year, thank you very much.
In a way, you're a kind of family for me.
And although most or all of you I may never meet, I feel that I know you.
But above all, the thought I want to leave you with is thanks.
Thanks for your support and for being there.
Now, the guest on this show is Chase Klutzk, as I said, ufologist, author, radio talk show, host, investigative researcher on the paranormal, UFOs, just about everything.
Let me tell you a little bit about her.
She worked for the U.S. Department of Defense.
A biomechanical engineer accreditation she's got, responsible for designing specialized programs and the supervision of complete success regarding force readiness, unique mission responsibilities, and elite force protection.
Wow.
Private investigator, too.
Consistently demonstrates the knowledge, technical requirements, legal parameters, and the commitment to evidence-based investigations using the latest technologies and methodologies.
She joined the Mutual UFO Network in 1996 and was selected as the star team manager and deputy director of investigations through 2011, continues to work and network with a class of highly trained and successful investigators, researchers, and production specialists in the field today, known for her high-performance skills and dedication.
A Very, very interesting person from what I read.
A couple of books she's been behind.
Admissible is one.
We'll find out about that.
And one that does exactly what it says on the tin, from what I'm told: a book called Are Aliens Really Real?
We'll find out about those books, her research, and her work.
Thanks again for what you've done for me.
Let's cross now to the United States, and let's first of all see if I pronounce the name right.
Klutzk.
Is it Klutsk?
It's Klitsky.
Klitsky?
Yes.
Klutzky.
I'll get this right.
Okay.
And Chase, I mean, great name.
I can see that your biography tells me you were a private detective.
With a name like Chase Klutzky, you had to be.
You couldn't be anything else.
Yeah, I suppose so.
That's funny.
But no, it's just, you know, remarkable to me.
But anyway, okay, whereabouts are you in the world?
Georgia.
Okay, so it's Southeast Georgia.
Now, you know that we're very nearly at Christmas time as we record this here.
It's pretty chilly in the UK.
It's either wet or it's icy cold.
And, you know, it's either sunny and crisp or it's cloudy and damp.
How's it doing where you are?
It's absolutely gorgeous, which is normal for this time of year.
It's about 75 right now.
I'm almost still guilty saying that, Hugh.
Well, you should.
You should.
On the jealousy scale, I'm probably at 11 right now, but no worries.
Now, you've got a fascinating biography that I've been trying to pick through here.
And the stuff that you've done in your career includes things like force readiness, unique mission responsibilities, elite force protection.
Guide me through some of that before we talk about your work.
What's that about?
I worked for the Department of Defense here in the States, and part of my job was to take a special population of military members or people that also work for the Department of Defense.
And sometimes those include civilian employees or even Homeland Security.
It's almost like once you're government, they'll loan you out to anybody.
But my job was really to take specific missions.
So if you had, for an example, one program I designed was for the Coast Guard right after 9-11 when they were transitioned from the Department of Justice to Homeland Security.
And they developed these kind of special operation teams within the Coast Guard.
And they were almost the SEAL teams of Homeland Security.
So I took that unit and trained them right into pre-commission, right into a commissioning stage and just got them ready for their new responsibilities, which was aggressive type insertions and maneuvering and got them ready for anything physically, mentally, and emotionally is how that worked.
You sound really nice, but you've been training these people in aggression.
How does that work?
You get a lot of stress out that way.
But it's really, it's a high performance mentality.
And whether you're an athlete or professional athlete or even just somebody in a workplace that just likes to get things done, it's that high performance maneuverability or within that agenda that you kind of stay in.
And I think it's part of us and our personality that gets you into a situation where you can work hard like this, enjoy that type of activity.
And actually, it's almost a day off.
It didn't really feel like work for most of it.
Got it.
So you teach people, Chase, to do the stuff that they have been tasked to do more efficiently and more within their capabilities, more within their parameters of human operation, if you see what I'm saying.
Yes, I can really work on making them faster, stronger, mentally more determined, and to hit that final goal of success.
That's everything.
Because as we know, honestly, Howard, it's mostly a mind game.
Our bodies are so capable, but our minds are as well.
As long as we believe we can do things and finish things, you have to see it before you can make it happen.
You're so right.
In my lifetime and in the lifetimes of people around me that I've seen and experienced, a lot of the time, those people who've succeeded and whenever I've had success, I have determined that that's going to be the way that it is.
If ever I err and think something's going to go wrong, then it probably will.
And being able to filter out that mental attitude, that almost negativity is a great skill.
It is a skill and it's a choice as well.
It's almost our happiness.
It's no matter what's going on in your life, when your feet hit that floor every morning, you literally can make a decision to be happy that day.
No, true enough.
I used to be on a radio show in the UK.
I've bored my listeners with that a lot.
It was the biggest radio show in London.
I know I've said that before.
I used to get out of bed just before 4 a.m. every morning and I would look at myself in the mirror, which I can't bear to do these days.
But back in those days, I'd look at myself in the mirror and I would say, you are going to have a great day.
And on the days when I remembered to do that, which was most of the days, I had a great day.
Absolutely.
And then you probably made your bed before you left because we also know that you've already accomplished something for the day.
Even if it's just make your bed, it's something you finished.
So to start off with that successful physical activity as well as that attitude, trust me, it will knock walls down.
So you're a performance specialist, but where does the private investigator bit come in?
That was actually something I had gotten into when we lived in Virginia and, you know, just took some classes more interested in kind of the criminality or, you know, just kind of a part-time position, you know, which led into a lot of interest into Investigations and to be certified and have some formal training, you know, because my training is in biomechanics versus, you know, criminal justice.
So I, you know, I just learned so much about investigation methodologies and techniques and tactics that, you know, it doesn't matter whether you're doing a criminal case, UFOs, cryptids, ghosts.
You know, there's a methodology that's very successful and we don't have to reinvent the wheel.
You've been working for the U.S. military.
I don't know if we're allowed to talk about the fact that your husband has a pretty senior military role, doesn't he?
We won't go there if you don't want to, but this is all real world practical stuff.
And yet you're interested in cryptozoology, UFOs, and all of that paranormal stuff that some people see as nutty.
How do those two things mesh?
It's a great question, Howard.
Honestly, my husband is a senior officer in the submarine ranks here in the United States.
And truthfully, this is a typical conversation when he comes home from work.
And this is how we live.
So it explains it perfectly.
He'll come home.
How was your day at work, honey?
And he's like, have some meetings, couple personnel issues, things really good.
Got a new schedule today.
You know, talk to so-and-so, blah, blah, blah.
How was yours?
It was awesome.
Had a few interviews with some witnesses, but you notice there's no detail.
And because of his security clearance and, you know, the submarine service being the only real military secret left in our military arsenal, but they have, you know, he can't give me a lot of data.
And I do the same, but he does it for national security reasons.
I do it for plausible deniability of what his wife is doing.
So, you know, different means to the same end, I guess.
I've often wondered, look, my dad was a policeman, nothing like as senior and important as your husband, but he was a policeman in Liverpool.
And a lot of the time he didn't talk about the stuff that he did because, you know, he wasn't supposed to and we didn't ask him.
But I wondered how that worked if you had a role like your husband's.
And clearly it does.
He won't discuss it with you, so you don't need to know it.
You're not a custodian of those secrets.
And you don't tell him about your stuff either.
Sounds like it works.
It really does.
And, you know, whether you're serving your country like my husband does or a bigger community like your dad did, it's an honor to have men that stand up like that, that serve something bigger.
It doesn't matter whether they're police officers, firemen, teachers, anybody that's in a situation where they're helping a community or a bigger picture is they're so honorable.
I don't think there's one more special than the other.
Now, one of the things that you've done, in fact, a very important part of your work is working out and helping us determine the methodology of paranormal investigation, whether you're investigating cryptozoological phenomena, whether you're investing little green men, whatever you're doing, you've worked a lot on the methodology.
And I'm going to quote here from your book, Admissible, or something that's been written about it.
It says, when it comes to investigating matters of a ufological, cryptozoological, or paranormal nature, there are two important factors to keep in mind.
A, be prepared, and B, have a professional approach.
And that's what the book Admissible was all about.
How do you, first of all, in your own work and also for other people who are coming into this field and more and more of them decide they want to do this seemingly every day, how do you do that?
How do you focus people to do a rational and methodical investigation of paranormal stuff?
To really get them to understand that whether it's an unknown or things that are not supposed to exist, you know, a UFO, for an example, it's something that it's still the same methodology.
You have to go in with a plan and the goal is always admissibility.
The courts aren't deciding whether UFO reports are true or not, but they should be.
And we owe it to the witnesses and the field of study itself to really hit these cases with the same standards of evidence collection and the same standards of interviewing techniques and not leading witnesses and professional behavior.
And I could go on and on with the list, but it really does come down to that honed in skill level that is easily applied in unknown type of investigations.
All right.
Let me give you an example, real life one.
I don't know if you've heard of Heidi Hollis.
It doesn't matter if you haven't.
Heidi Hollis is somebody that I had on this show, and I got a certain amount of email in support of her and a lot of email giving me a certain amount of flack for having her on the show because Heidi Hollis told me about how she had always had contact with ufological phenomena and had even had little strange off-this-planet beings in her apartment.
And a lot of people thought the story was way too far-fetched.
How would you investigate?
How would you validate a story like that?
Well, you got to be a door kicker a little bit out here and consider yourself real boots on the ground.
So the first thing I would do is interview her as the primary witness, and I would get her statement on videotape.
It's one thing to listen to somebody.
It's another if you can watch them tell their story.
It gives a little more credibility or a deciding factor to the people who know how to determine body movements and things like this.
But it's critical to have something like this done.
Depending on the story, I would contact family members.
If she ever had a UFO incident and she lives in a neighborhood, I'd knock on doors and ask other people.
I wouldn't necessarily say who I was doing the investigation for for privacy matters, but you contact police, you look through archives, you start looking for anything that may have been reported five years ago that hit the little paper or the police department who's taken weird reports that we know often happens.
The police officers are normally first responders in a lot of these cases.
They see strange lights in the neighborhood.
So there's a lot of things, but definitely I would focus in on that witness.
If she's talking about abductions, then we have scientific tooling and measurement tools that I would most likely set up in her house if they were still ongoing.
And it's just trying to gather evidence.
But we have to know what evidence is as well.
And that is corroborated witness testimony is absolutely considered physical evidence.
And Chase, what happens if you don't have that?
Now, you know, Heidi Hollis didn't have that.
Some of the phenomena that she talked about, I think, have been experienced by a college roommate as well, who she was now out of contact with, which, you know, some listeners felt was rather convenient that she wasn't contactable, this person who could stand some of this stuff up.
How do you do that?
It's really about the credibility of the witness at that point.
And all you could do is try to follow up on some things, location, historical possibilities.
But it really comes down to the credibility of a witness.
And unfortunately, we find that many people react differently.
It's not uncommon to have two people experience the same thing and one want to investigate why this is happening and very open and talks about it.
And the other partner that may have experienced too, absolutely shuts down and wants nothing to do with it.
We've even seen it in families in cases as big as the Reed case here in the States.
Tom Reed is so open and wants to talk to everybody about what he knows is happening.
And his brother really wants nothing to do with it.
Yep, I can quite understand that's how it is and that makes it all the more difficult.
You talked about, before we leave this behind, the credibility of the individual witness and being able to perhaps look at them on videotape.
What happens if you get a situation, and I'm talking about a number of guests that I've had on this show over the years that I've been doing it, where somebody may be deluded, and perhaps the jury of my listeners' opinion is that they are deluded.
But because they've deluded themselves, they give you the body language signs that they absolutely believe it and it absolutely happened.
Where does that leave you?
That leads me into absolutely drawing that same conclusion at the end, which is if at any time, you know, I feel as though, you know, what they're telling me may not have happened, you know, and I've done this.
You know, I've suggested and recommended, you know, that they seek, first of all, a second opinion from another professional investigator, but also, you know, that they seek other help because I don't believe what they've experienced, you know, was anything to do with extraterrestrial or paranormal.
We have to be honest in our conclusions.
And it's not easy sometimes, Howard, because sometimes you feel very sorry because they don't mean to be caught up and, you know, mentally ill or, you know, capturing this phenomenon.
It's not something they do on purpose.
And yet it's the reality of their story.
But I'm thinking of a number of people over my lifetime in this field.
And it's always been an interest of mine.
So I've been talking to people about this for two and a half decades or so, ever since I was a very young guy, because it's always captivated me.
But if somebody appears to be telling me the truth and they appear to believe what they are saying, but it may be a load of bunkum actually, how on earth can you ever establish what is the truth?
If you know what I'm saying, if they genuinely believe it themselves, if they absolutely positively believe it, maybe it's been affirmed to them in dreams.
Who knows how it's affirmed to them?
But if they absolutely positively believe it and they're not shuffling from side to side and they're making eye contact with you, I find that a very difficult position for you as the investigator to be in.
And at the same time, as an investigator, I'm a data collector.
So I'm collecting evidence and trying to garnish as much as that as I can for the final report or to hand them a case file.
A lot of times it's not really my opinion that matters because truthfully, we try to leave that outside the door.
We all have certain prejudices, whether it's religious beliefs or my personal beliefs, even if UFOs are real.
You have to leave that out there.
I am not the investigator that will sit there and hear a witness tell me about a giant craft and I'm like, oh my gosh, that sounds like a mothership.
You will never hear that from me.
It's very professional.
It's easy to like these people as well.
And part of maintaining the ability to say at the end, I wasn't able to find as much evidence supporting your case as I would like to, but this is what I have.
And my conclusions are, I don't know what is going on with you, but I'm not sure it was extraterrestrial.
To keep that relationship between a witness and an investigator is difficult.
You like these people.
You spend time with them.
You kind of form a bond with them almost, but they're not looking for a new friend.
They need an investigator.
They need somebody that's going to give them that piece of the puzzle they're not able to find themselves.
But I know exactly what you're saying, and it is very, very difficult.
And sometimes all you can do is just, you know, say, I want to believe them and walk away.
So in every case, do people call you in?
You don't initiate investigations yourself.
Is that so?
Oh, no, I initiate investigations.
It's difficult because, you know, I'm completely independent.
But, you know, I, yeah, I'll go through and I get many people that ask me to look into their cases.
Unfortunately, Howard, I've gotten to the point where I have to triage.
And I typically take cases that are complicated and really, really sensitive, you know, and I will.
I'll design a team or go out by myself, whatever that case needs.
And of course, this is what we're talking about earlier in preparation and having a plan.
In the initial interview With the witness, depending on what they're asking me for, do I need a team?
What are the logistics?
What do I need with me?
Is this going to be an on-site investigation that's going to be three days, or can it be an afternoon?
And so, these are the things that you determine as you're taking them.
And most people aren't even looking for that on-site.
Some people just want to tell you what happened to them.
And they just need the human warmth and comfort of having somebody listen, I guess.
Yes.
Okay.
I don't know if you can, I don't expect you to name any names.
It wouldn't be important or relevant if you did.
So it's fine.
We can keep anonymity here.
But within the bounds of confidentiality that I'm sure you operate within, can you tell me some ufological stories, some investigations that you've been on?
Oh, sure.
I've been on a ton of them that shook me up right down to a core.
I've been in the swamps of Louisiana chasing the Honey Island swamp monster to cornfields in Tennessee looking for UFOs.
All right.
Well, let's talk UFOs and then we'll do the cryptozoological stuff because that's very interesting too.
Okay.
A UFO investigation.
Well, here's one.
I was a star team manager for MUFON at the time.
And there was a case in Tennessee.
And this witness said that she had found this substance in her back patio.
And it looked like it had dropped from the sky.
And, you know, she had called one of the other investigators out.
And he believed, and I kid you not, that this was alien reproduction fluid.
So, yes.
So, of course, you know, my specialty is evidence and this type of case.
So, of course, I took it right away and I drive up to her house.
This is in Memphis, Tennessee.
And I interview her and I'm in her home and I'm looking around.
And all of a sudden, I'm seeing these posters of Elvis Presley everywhere, which isn't unusual because it's Memphis.
But then I started noticing the woman in them.
And I realized this may be this beautiful older woman I'm talking to named Suzanne.
And her name is Suzanne Lay.
And I'm looking at her and I'm finding this absolutely fantastic.
And I asked her, I said, did you know Elvis Presley?
And she's like, oh, honey, I did several movies with Elvis.
There's my posters up there.
And I'm a little starstruck at this point.
And I realize I'm here to pick up alien reproductive fluids.
And I'm looking at this very beautiful woman thinking, oh my gosh, like it doesn't get any weirder than this.
So sure enough, she brings me out in the back patio and I see it.
And it really is odd.
And of course, as I'm collecting it and, you know, putting out my tape and getting everything taken care of, you know, I got my samples, but then I'm kind of looking at it.
I'm like, wow, this is really, you know, it's kind of like when a windshield will crack and it's, you can bend it and kind of crack it, but you feel like it's going to snap at any moment.
And that's what this substance felt like.
It was very strange.
I'd never seen it before.
So, of course, I'm looking for anything, trees, any other evidence of this substance in her yard.
Sounds like a little bit more of an elastic spider's web.
Yes, it's very, very strange.
And sure enough, you know, moving on with the story, there's literally, I looked everywhere in that backyard.
I combed it.
I kid you not.
I won't even tell you how long I did that for, but it was crazy looking at neighbors' yards, you know, photographing trees, everything, gathered the substance, sent it in, finally got the results back and found out that it was the, in a miracle grow fertilizer that they sell here in the States.
They have these little crystals in them.
And when you hydrate and water hits that, the crystals blow up.
And that's what hydrates the plants when you forget to and gives them the extra nutrient.
Well, the rain that had come the night before had washed all the dirt away and it just left this white crystal looking substance.
But why are you?
Well, if I found something like that outside the apartment block that I live in, I wouldn't automatically assume that it was alien reproduction fluid.
I would think it was something else.
Well, there was a storm the night before and she had seen UFOs that she called, you know, strange objects.
She didn't know what they were, you know, in the back and over Memphis.
And believe it or not, for, you know, this big city in Tennessee, there's a lot of UFO reports that come out of there, but it's also a huge, huge hub.
It's really where it's kind of the central point of packaging and shipping everywhere.
So, you know, we have a lot of misidentifications out here, but she had claimed to see many of these.
And her girlfriend, this is the last part of it, which is hysterical.
Her girlfriend, Shirley in Arizona, knows a lot about UFOs is what she's telling me.
And she said, well, Shirley tells me that, you know, I need to pursue this further.
And although I understand your analysis from your, she said, your little science labs, she's like, I'm going to go forward with this and Shirley's going to help me.
And she's like, you might want to talk to Shirley.
She knows a lot about UFOs.
And so I'm like, okay, Suzanne.
I said, what was her name?
And she goes, you know, Shirley McLean.
Who, of course, is well into all of this stuff.
Absolutely.
And I find out that Suzanne not only is, you know, a Hollywood star with Elvis, you know, on many, many films, but of course, Suzanne Lay is the niece of Vivian Lay from Gone with the Wind.
So, you know, that's just kind of one example of, you know, just how interesting this field can be.
And you never know who you're going to get called.
Completely.
But where did it leave you in the investigation?
I mean, was she a credible witness, do you think?
I do.
But again, you know, kind of caught up in the whole UFO, I call them rabbit holes where, you know, they fall in and she just didn't want to believe it was something explainable.
To her, she wanted it to be alien.
So she was going forward with that.
And I'm okay because honestly, Howard, I did a good job.
My job was done.
I told her the truth.
I had her, you know, the substance professionally analyzed, stamped, you know, vetted, and I gave her in a completely admissible report.
So I've done my job.
Wherever they go with them, you know, it's okay and what difference did that make to her do you think to get that report from you at that point not much i think it was something to consider but you know she already had her mind made up and she wanted this to be you know something very different and she was okay not really focusing on the report and the science um you know to kind of be in that club almost
you know, with her friend Shirley.
Have you?
Well, exactly.
And did you have much contact with Shirley MacLaine?
Got to ask.
Yeah, no, I actually had not.
I did talk to her very briefly and she was fantastic.
Actually, we didn't talk a lot.
She did.
And I listened and that was very, very helpful.
And it was really an honor.
But, you know, you learn something from everybody.
And I just really love that whole experience.
But, you know, they're not all the cases we get.
You know, some of them, you know, we're in Kentucky and I'm near the coal mines of these mountains and very rural coal mining town.
And, you know, I meet with a witness and he wants to show me where this alleged landing was.
And we're walking in the woods and then we keep walking.
And all of a sudden it hit me.
It's like, what am I doing?
I don't know this guy.
We're going deeper and deeper in the woods.
I have no idea where I am.
And of course, it's a little late in the day to have that thought, isn't it?
Really?
You should have had that thought beforehand.
Absolutely.
And, you know, when you find yourself sizing up the witness, if you could take him or not, it's time to, you know, better consider security and have a better plan.
And that really would be good advice for anybody doing this stuff.
Don't put yourself in a situation where you're at any risk at all.
Otherwise, you may end up with a problem.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Okay.
In the ufological field, have you ever found anything that definitively you could say, I cannot explain that.
And the chances are this may be extraterrestrial.
Not from you.
Oh, absolutely.
And that was 2010.
There was an investigation in, again, Tennessee.
And this case is still locked confidentially because of the witness.
But literally, you know, I'm standing in a cornfield.
And of course, usually as an investigator, we're there after the fact, trying to pick up any kind of trace evidence, physical evidence left behind.
Very rarely do we go out to investigate and activity occurs with us there.
And that's what happened.
And I saw this amazing, humongous triangle.
And it was literally so definite flying overhead.
I think it was at that moment that I realized no frigging way this is ours.
Like I have just, I felt like it was the first time in my head I was like, I, this is a UFO.
This is ridiculous.
And later on in that evening, there was an incident where there was this fear put on everybody out in the cornfield.
After the triangle had gone over our head, I had what I thought was a battery drain on all my equipment because nothing was working.
Of course, just like your listeners are going to say, you know, here's an investigator out there, four cameras, different makes and models, all this equipment, triangles flying over.
Did I get a photo of it?
Nope.
And of course, it's, of course she didn't.
And I'm feeling the same way.
I'm ready to throw.
I even said I'm going to throw these effing cameras across.
I was so frustrated.
So what you need almost is to be videoed yourself so that you can use your own techniques of behavioral analysis to show that you're telling the truth.
Absolutely.
I am on that.
It's just a thought.
Yeah.
And that is recorded several times.
Yeah.
This case was thoroughly investigated because once we became witnesses and part of, you know, the events going on on this property, none of us, you know, none of us were allowed to talk to each other until we're individually debriefed by the state director and the whole gamut there and move on.
So very, very documented case.
But, you know, that was the first time I actually saw something that absolutely just I still think about it to this day and scratch my head.
And no thoughts in your mind that maybe on some level that stuff that you saw, the triangle or the rest of it was generated by something here, not something, you know, millions of miles up there.
Of course, of course, because I do believe that probably 80 percent of everything reported is ours, even if it's, you know, way above what we believe we have advantages of or the ability and technology.
We have abilities way beyond we give ourselves credit for, trust me.
And so, no, I to this day, I've never said I've seen an alien or, you know, I saw a UFO.
I report seeing a triangle and a being.
So there are many and I'm very clear about that because I can't say that.
I don't know where the triangle came from.
I felt when I was watching it that, oh, my gosh, this can't be ours.
The way it moved, Howard, it's so different.
When I saw this for the first time, the size was intimidating.
The, you know, blacking out the stars, it was, you know, you could see the shape.
And just the way it moved and the way the atmosphere changed as it got closer and over our head and the way it moved on, it was just it.
was remarkable and it was so different counter to a lot of reports that we've had over the years from various people who've said various things uh the being didn't try to communicate with you but you felt something you said that you felt something but it wasn't communication it was a feeling yeah it was absolute terror is well when we saw the being it was nothing we were already in that terror it was right after the uh triangle left um I remember saying,
Is hey guys, does anyone else feel like you're being watched?
And I said, and I don't mean from up there.
And before anyone could answer, I just felt this fear.
And it just, it was physical.
It hit you.
And all of a sudden, I feel every single cell in my body absolutely in terror, fight or flight times a thousand.
And I just remember turning and running.
And when I say I remember, because I never had a thought about, oh my gosh, I should get out of here or what was that?
Nobody said anything.
And as I turned, I noticed a couple other people doing the exact same thing, turning the exact same time, same direction and running.
And later on, we realized nobody recalls any reason to do that.
And as we're running, and I am running fast, I remember thinking, wow, like it was almost, I can't believe I'm running this fast.
And I'm going through this cornfield and all of a sudden I hit the witness.
He had stopped in front of me and he stopped so quickly, I ran into him.
And plus it was dark in the cornfield, but I hit him so hard and I heard him say, what the F is that?
And he took his left hand and swung the flashlight out and it landed right on the face of this little, yeah, this little being.
Howard, not six feet from us.
I was so stunned that something was right there.
And I. So hold on.
Something physical and solid was hit by the flashlight.
Yes, it was a three and a half foot being.
The very first thing that went through my head was, oh, MG, this is not one of those cute little Roswell aliens.
And the second thing I noticed were his legs, and I say his, I didn't see any reason to say that other than I'm a mother of boys and a grandmother of boys.
But the legs were twig-like and not just, you know, remarkably thin, they were so twig-like, they didn't look like they would support his body.
So this didn't make sense as a, you know, a biomechanics specialist.
This did not make sense to me and it stuck out.
And I just remember running again.
But when the flashlight hit this face, this cornfield is dark.
There is nothing here.
It's a 100-acre cornfield.
There is nothing in this area.
It couldn't be more rural country, you know, Tennessee.
And then all of a sudden to go from that kind of darkness to this, you know, big holly flashlight that slaps you right in the face, six feet away, this being was.
And there wasn't a flinch.
I saw nothing, nothing from this being other than it looked biological, but there was, you know, it looked mechanical, I mean, or it behaved mechanically.
It is my recollection.
I'm sorry.
He honestly, there wasn't a flinch, a twitch, nothing.
I've got to do the boring journalist thing now.
And, you know, I love the story and I want it to be so.
But the boring journalist in me says, are you sure this wasn't some kind of elaborate hoax?
Absolutely thought of that.
And, you know, because his cousins came down, they didn't come down to the field with us.
They kind of came down after and even hung by the tree line.
And it was a little later I thought, hmm, were they waiting for that reaction or were they waiting for something because they put that being out there?
And of course, I went back.
I mean, once we left, we did.
We left the cornfield.
We get back up to his driveway.
And of course, once we were away from there, you realize the fear had left us somewhere between that cornfield and his driveway.
But I remember just looking at the other investigator and saying, we need to contact state director.
So she got her cell phone out and walked a little bit down the driveway to call him.
And, you know, the witness and I are looking at each other like, what the heck was that?
And, you know, and I literally said, told him we could not talk about this.
And we didn't.
Within 30 minutes, we're back in the cornfield because, of course, now I'm itching.
First of all, I'm still confused.
Like, why the heck did we all run?
Like, what happened there?
What was going on?
Well, it sounds like whatever it was sparked and engendered within you something primeval.
Yes.
That's exactly what I believe.
I believe that whatever forced all of us to feel that immediately, it was put upon us artificially.
Nobody was ready to run.
I'm not a runner.
I'm not a big, I enjoy the ride and the investigations and, you know, the adrenaline of the unknown.
I enjoy this stuff.
You sound like the kind of person who would stand in the face of some phenomenon and say, what the hell are you?
Not run.
Exactly.
And the witness, this is his backyard.
And when we first got there, he pulled his big shotgun out of his truck and put it in the back of it.
Yeah.
And I kind of looked at him and I guess the look on my face, he's like, no, no, no, Chase, I'm not, I'm not a serial killer or anything.
He said, but we have a problem with coyotes.
And, you know, I have this just in case they run up on us.
Immediately, this is not a man who's used to running.
He didn't say, if the coyotes come, get in the truck and we're out of here.
He brought a shotgun to handle it.
This is an area they don't dial 911.
You don't call the police when you have a quick emergency.
You handle it the best you can until maybe some help could come out later.
But no, there was no reason to run at all.
I do feel like there was some sort of artificial, you know, manipulation there.
I did not find any footprints at all about that being.
I could retrace exactly where we had been.
I didn't see any walking up or any unusual ones where they could have put the fake being or, you know, I've gone the gamut, Howard, seriously, many different directions.
But I left that evening scratching my head saying, BS, that was what the heck was going on.
Nobody gets everything in one night.
And we saw a triangle.
We had a being.
We had other little lights in the sky.
It's like, come on, guys.
There's what's going, something else is going on here.
And I still today have that same feeling.
So my gut tells me something's not quite kosher.
But when I tell the story, this is exactly what happened that evening.
That's what I saw.
I don't know who it was, if it was our government.
You know, who knows?
It's just that's what happened that night.
And that's what I report.
Did you report it to anybody else?
I mean, anybody official?
No, I think mostly because, you know, I belonged to MUFON at the time.
So MUFON was fully aware and sent out even more investigators.
And we were all, you know, separately interviewed.
I did talk to law enforcement about the witnesses case, but not about what happened to us that evening.
But yes, I did, you know, go through my usual gamut, call newspapers, even reporters in the area.
If they've ever remembered taking a UFO story or hearing about UFO stories in the area, definitely contacted.
In fact, it was Detective Lawson and contacted him and talked to him for about 20 minutes in his office.
And he was very kind, a little tongue-in-cheek with me.
But I believed him to be very honest and he answered my questions.
And that's really all I ask.
Interesting to me because you've had contact yourself professionally with the Department of Defense through the work that you've done.
And of course, your husband's in the submarine service and nobody's stopping you doing this stuff.
So that kind of gives the lie to what some people say that, you know, if you have those kind of connections, they're going to stop you from getting involved in these things in case you find out something you shouldn't.
It's exactly why I have considered the government doing this because, you know, just being out here and, you know, I'm very visible because I like to be embedded and I love to network and, you know, little radio shows.
I'll call out the Department of the Navy.
I've called out, you know, our governments for keeping secrets.
And I think at this point, shutting me up would make a bigger noise.
There'd be too many people that were like, well, what happened to Chase?
What happened?
And the conspiracy theories would be ridiculous.
But to scare me out and to have me leave and denounce all of it, like some of our witnesses do.
And honestly, Howard, the reason I don't publicly, although you can find the information out through a couple of Google searches, I don't publicly name or call out the other investigator anymore out of respect because she did leave.
She, very shortly after this investigation, got in a car, left her family, left her house and drove away and completely left the field of ufology and just left.
And why do you think that was?
You know, we suspect it had a lot to do with, you know, some of the things that fear was residual, not the fear or the feeling itself, but there's a knot in your stomach.
You know, even talking about it still, I will feel a little knot in my stomach and kind of get a little tense physical feelings in my muscles.
Just, you know, it's just, it's a post-traumatic response, I think, to have that kind of fear.
I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
It was way worse than just being terrified is the best way I could describe it, because you could feel it in every cell of your body.
It was insane.
Let's talk cryptozoology.
Reading about you, you were on recently some kind of expedition in Peru, weren't you?
Talk to me about that.
Oh, my gosh.
I was down.
I was invited on the team by L.A. Marzuli, which we know is absolutely one of the forefathers of, you know, being on the trail looking for the Nephilim.
And of course, the Nephilim being the offspring of angels and humans.
And he suspected strongly that some of these elongated skulls, especially the really large ones, may very well be the evidence of the offspring of the giants and the Nephilim.
And that's really the basis of a lot of, or our biggest reason of going there, although we did many other types of investigations.
So the phone went and you were invited.
Yes, I was the UFO investigator and the only one on the team.
There was Dr. Aaron Judkins, who was an archaeologist, and Joe Taylor, who does the castings and a lot of preservations for museums.
Richard Shaw, the director and producer for the Watchers documentary, you know, in LA, who is absolutely out here.
You know, I love him so much and have gained such huge respect for him because, you know, he's evangelic and his religious beliefs, you know, he takes a different component of the UFO phenomena and understands it as something else because he believes that the UFO phenomena is probably the deception coming when we have,
you know, the prophesied revelations and apocalypse and, you know, the end of days, the UFO phenomena will be very prominent in that deception.
So what is to unfold is cloaked in this UFO phenomenon.
It's a sort of cul-de-sac.
It's a false entry, false road.
Yes, he believes that angels, especially the fallen angels, you know, just that we know that heaven is in a conflict and a war, and you have good angels and the bad angels.
And, you know, the bad angels were, you know, cast down and continue to fight to this day.
But, you know, even in Mount Hermon, 200 were sent down and, you know, they saw daughters of men and thought they were beautiful and had sex with them and created this race of giants on this earth.
And that's what he's been looking for, those giants ever since.
And what was your part in the investigation in Peru?
Did you go down with a shovel and dig?
What was going on with you?
Well, my job was to collect any kind of physical evidence, trace evidence, but also the data to listen for the UFO aspects of stories that were given to us or anything that we came in contact with.
And of course, one of the things that I helped with because of the collections and kits, I have a forensic kit that would make the sheriff's department jealous.
But having all the tools and stuff down there, we unwrapped a baby.
It's reported to be the first infant skull elongated found in Peru.
And so we unwrapped it, of course, with Dr. Aaron Judkins and Joe.
And the three of us unwrapped this and found this strawberry blonde infant.
And it's just this little baby elongated skull.
And it's just remarkable find.
And of course, you know, LA is really looking for any evidence that they're born this way.
And this isn't cradle boarding or, you know, cranial deformation.
And we measured the skulls because, you know, they really think they're larger in capacity.
Were you able to determine, because this was done in some societies, wasn't it, that they would deform kids' skulls to make them that kind of shape.
Were you able to determine this was natural?
Yes.
Well, no, not that they were natural.
All the skulls that we touched, and we were in many, many areas from professional museums to the Chongos, where literally the top of this desert area was completely littered.
And I mean completely littered with human remains everywhere that we're stepping over, you know, trying not to, you know, step on a femur.
It was crazy looking for these skulls.
We probably handled about 300 the whole time we were in Peru.
I personally didn't see any that I felt were larger than considered normal.
There are a few, though, that, well, if this was cradle headboarding or purposeful manipulation, they knew what they were doing by the time they got to these skulls because there is very little evidence and a few anomalies like the inca bones and the lack of a sagittal suture.
They only have one parietal plate.
And so there's a lot of anomalies that really caught the attention, you know, of LA and quite, quite, it's actually, it should have been.
This is exactly what we need in intrepid investigators, you know, to see something that's not right and dig in and just test and retest and, you know, look again and, you know, to find out if there's anything to the suspicion that these could possibly be anonymous.
And what do you believe you encountered there?
Do you believe what you encountered was anomalous?
I do believe that there is a possibility that some of these skulls need to be tested because we don't have all the answers.
However, everything I've personally witnessed so far is I have seen no evidence of scientific proof, not one shred, not one word of scientific testing or proof that these are anything other than human, cradled, deformed, on purpose manipulation.
And it was a royal population.
And in fact, the only people allowed to change the shape of the heads or to practice this were what they call the not slaves, the free people.
It was actually a sign that they were free and privileged.
And there's even rumor that it was only the royals that practiced this, except there's thousands and thousands and thousands of these skulls everywhere.
So probably too many to be just the royals, but we believe now it's the free people that got to do that.
So even if what you encountered there was nothing to do with E.T., you are still coming face to face, almost literally, well, literally, with an ancient civilization and people who existed in a way that we will find it very hard to conceive of today.
Absolutely.
And that is the gold brass rig.
You know, that's the epitome of the best spot to be in because, you know, even if we're not proving anything to do with UFOs or aliens or hybrids or anything like this, it's still a population of ancients that we suspect lived in a technologically advanced state, even more advanced in some of the sciences than we are today.
Which brings us neatly back to what you said at the beginning about human abilities and capabilities are greater than we perhaps very often understand.
I want you two to talk to me now, if you could, about Bigfoot.
I keep getting emails from people saying, why don't you do a show about Bigfoot?
I think I've only done one or two over the time, and I'm not sure quite how far we got with those.
Do you believe that Bigfoot exists?
I do, but I believe not that there's this creature that's, you know, hanging around the woods and, you know, every once in a while is spotted.
I believe that this is most likely a dimensional.
You know, I even believe, you know, most of the UFO activity that we're witnessing is more of a dimensional or a physics we don't understand yet.
It's the physics of tomorrow, you know, time bending, time space, you know, because I just don't believe they're getting here on a full tank of gas and a Red Bull.
There'd be way too much evidence.
All the amateur astronomers would be watching these objects come in.
We're just not seeing this with the civilian population that also has eyes to the sky.
So I think Bigfoot is absolutely more of a dimensional type supernatural being.
And Bigfoot people hate me for saying that.
But you know, you hear many stories about when people witness a Bigfoot that they take three steps and they're just gone.
And they are notoriously elusive.
Otherwise, we'd have recorded them better than we appear to have now.
Yes.
And I believe there's every reason to believe that the strength of evidence is more in a dimensional supernatural than these beings biologically living here and just getting caught every once in a while.
Right.
Okay.
Well, that's dealt with then.
What are you working on right now as we come to the end of this year, 2014?
What's your current project?
Right now, I'm finishing up some of the skull work that we had started in Peru.
And of course, there's still a lot of work that we're doing there.
I left over almost 100 forensic samples in Peru.
And we're still waiting for the grants for that DNA and all that work to be tested.
Still kind of pushing for that.
Work in a case from Ohio of an alleged UFO landing that left a little bit of metal.
So the metal right now is being tested by professional labs.
I do not use UFO analysts.
I love them.
They're great to bring on board after I have that unbiased scientific report.
I send them to MIT.
I send them to certified labs and I don't tell them where I got it.
You guys test metal.
Here's some metal, you know?
And so I'm waiting for some of those tests to come back.
I'm going to have the information vetted and kind of dumbed down for people like me who know nothing about stromium and aluminum alloys and be presenting that case very shortly and just kind of finishing up and waiting to see what's happening for next year.
I'm sure.
I'm really interested.
Well, I'm sure something will turn up.
You're about to say sorry for completing your sentence for you.
I didn't mean to.
The metal thing has always fascinated me because a number of people have said on a number of radio shows, including the likes of Coast Coast AM in the States, that we're going to have this metal sampled, tested, and then you don't hear any more.
So I'm hoping that we do hear some more from you about this because I'm looking forward to it.
Personally, send you the reports if you wish.
Honestly.
I would love to see them.
I would.
I would.
Yes, because I do believe in 100% transparency.
And once again, it's, you know, the public has a good senseability about what's proof and what's not.
They have a level of acceptance.
And that's the admissibility I go for.
Once I have this metal out, and of course, all preliminary, you know, the word I'm getting is we got some stuff here that's anomalous.
I will never come out and say this is UFO metal.
I'll come out and say, okay, guys, this is the background of how this metal was found.
There was an alleged report.
The witness claims this.
The witness is credible.
It was backed up with this.
You give all the cooperating evidence and then you give the metal reports from people that had no idea, professionals, and then you give it to the public and let's start a discussion.
But if this stuff is really, really anomalous, then you are potentially sitting on the biggest story in the world, aren't you?
Yes, I'm not sure it's going to be that big.
I don't know yet.
I don't know yet.
And boy, I hope not.
That's a lot of responsibility, isn't it?
To sit on the biggest story.
There's a lot of this actually in the works.
I've also been recently contacted from somebody that claims to have medals left over from Rendlesham.
And, you know, first I'm kind of thinking, wait, there was no crash at Rendlesham.
It was a landing.
And, you know, I'm kind of going through.
But then I remember Colonel Holt even making that recording when he was out in the woods chasing these in the 80s saying, wait, it looks like something is dropping from this object.
It almost looks like a molten metal.
That would be phenomenal, literally phenomenal, if you were able to identify something like that from Rendlesham.
But the question would be, wouldn't it, if it hasn't been tested and seen and researched now, why not?
Why have 30 years gone by?
Absolutely.
Not only my first question, but how did you get it?
Why are you coming forward now?
Where's it been?
What's the chain of custody?
Absolutely.
A million questions before I'd even consider accepting this matter.
It might be quite explicable and explainable because, you know, Larry Warren, who I've spoken to, who tells me all about having been there, tells me that people who are involved in that were warned off, were told, you talk about what you've experienced and you will have big trouble.
So, you know, maybe 30 years has to elapse.
You know, that's exactly where I'm going with vetting the information this man is giving us.
Absolutely.
I'm not finding a deception yet in what he's told us.
And as far as Larry Warren, you know, I believe that guy.
When you really dig into Rendlesham, and of course, you know, Peter Robbins being one of the first in theater, you know, in country on this event, Larry Robins, Ivy, Larry Warren, absolutely is one of the first credible witnesses to come out of Rendlesham.
Well, I sat in a radio studio with Larry Warren, got on with him very, very well in Liverpool, because he lives very close to there now.
And I looked at him and I did some of that body language stuff and I thought, you're very credible in your body language.
And I thought to myself, what reason would he have to make this stuff up?
Now, I'm sure I'm going to get emails telling me a million reasons why he might want to make this stuff up, but I found him very credible.
It's so easy to say that.
I don't know very many people that would perpetuate a story, a lie, you know, for attention for as much abuse this man has gotten and as much ridicule.
And it's, you know, almost ruined his life at times.
And I don't know who somebody who continues to do that when the easiest thing for him to do is just go away and never speak of it again.
It would fix everything for him.
And I think it's just too easy.
And sometimes, you know, these what we call armchair researchers, I love these guys.
I love skeptics.
They keep me honest, Howard.
You know, they keep me up in my game, keeping me trying to be better.
they're very important.
And that healthy dose of skepticism has to be maintained or we're not going to be any good to our witnesses.
But when I put out these reports for the medals, for example, and these people want to come at me, well, I'm not buying it because of this.
Dude, I put out a year and a half worth of information and every single word printed in every lab.
I want you to do the same.
You don't get to come at me with, nah, I'm not buying it without research data.
Give me some evidence why you believe this is wrong.
Give me something other than, hmm, don't like it.
You know, these bunking days or these debunking days and us sniffing dirt is over.
You know, if you're going to debunk my work, then come at me with a professional and give me some data because I understand as an investigator, I'm not making a claim here.
I'm putting the evidence out so everybody can make their own decisions.
Do you know what?
I've just had a thought as we've talked here.
And I don't mean to be frivolous at all, but it is, you know, it's kind of Christmas time, end of the year time.
I've just had a great thought for a product we could market.
Debunkin' Donuts.
Oh my gosh.
I love it.
So you heard it here first.
Debunkin' Donuts.
We need to make the box.
We need to make the box and just put it up on our website.
That's awesome.
Well, it's got to be a saucer-shaped box, I think.
Debunkin' Donuts.
Hey, listen, lovely to talk with you.
Last question to you.
And it's the biggie.
And I debated with myself whether I would ask you this at the beginning or the end.
And I thought, no, the end is best.
Why are you doing this?
I am so interested in this.
And I believe that, you know, the UFO phenomena changes everything.
It changes everything in our life.
And I'm just not buying what I've been told, not only where we come from, but the state of affairs today.
And I don't believe we're going to have as bright of a future without answering where we come from and what's going on.
And I really don't like specialty groups telling me what I'll understand or what I can cope with and what I can't.
We must talk again, Chase Kletzki.
Thank you very much indeed.
And, you know, maybe you and I will have to meet one of these days and we'll have a coffee and a debunking donut.
That will be amazing.
And thank you so much for having me on.
It was so my privilege.
And if people want to find out more about you, give me details of your website.
What's that?
It is www.chaseklitzki.com.
I'm on Facebook and Twitter.
I love my Twitter and my Facebook, and I do a lot of networking and talking there.
So please come find me.
And, you know, it was such a pleasure.
I can't wait to talk to you again, Howard.
I'll look into the world of Chase Kletzky in the United States.
Let me know what you think about her or about any of our shows.
You can go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv, and follow the link and you can send me an email from there.
And if you'd like to make a donation to the show, that will be gratefully received to allow this work to continue.
Thank you very much for your support.
More great guests coming soon here on The Unexplained.
Thank you to Adam Cornwell, my hard-working webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool for another year of excellent work.
And above all, thank you to you for your support.
And until next we meet here on The Unexplained, whenever that might be, please stay safe, stay calm, and stay in touch.
My name is Howard Hughes.
I'm in London.
This has been The Unexplained.
Take care.
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