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Aug. 10, 2014 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes

01:06:37

Edition 169 - Grant Cameron

This time - Canada's Grant Cameron - UFOs and consciousness...

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	Across the UK, across continental North America and around the world.
	On the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
	Thank you for returning to the show.
	I know I've become a bit of a weather bore this year because I tend to give you a weather report for my part of the UK just about every time I start a show.
	Only because since last October we've been in the grip of weird weather, flooding through the winter, an extraordinary hot spell that's lasted for about the last six weeks, now breaking with the back end of Hurricane Bertha that hit today.
	Now I've been talking about this on radio.
	We've been forecasting what may happen.
	The forecasters couldn't be totally sure.
	Well today we found out.
	And literally where I live in London, in the space of half an hour to 40 minutes, I saw roads become rivers and rivulets that people had to deal with.
	And I saw the downspouts from the eaves of houses turned into waterfalls, just pouring out water.
	I was foolish enough just a little while ago to go out to my local Tesco supermarket to get some food in and managed to get myself completely soaked in the middle of this.
	Now over the years, I really didn't believe, I think, some of the reports I heard from far-flung parts of the world about flash flooding and how quickly it can happen.
	Today I saw absolute evidence it can.
	Even in nice suburban places like this with, compared with other parts of the world, pretty good infrastructure, that kind of stuff can happen.
	What is going on with our weather?
	It's a question I've asked probably 50 times over the years here on The Unexplained.
	Still no answer.
	The only answer we get seems to be from the heavens and the latest twist in the weather saga.
	I'll keep you posted on all of that.
	Thank you very much for your recent emails.
	I am going to do some shout-outs in the next edition of this show, but had a lot of new listeners getting in touch.
	Please spread the word about this show.
	If you are a new listener, then please tell your friends about The Unexplained.
	It's the only way we will grow.
	If you want to get in touch with me with a guest suggestion or maybe to make a donation, you can do that at the website www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv, and the website designed and created by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
	Thanks for your hard work, Adam.
	Coming soon, we have the tale of a haunting that is utterly scary, perhaps one of the world's scariest ever hauntings.
	I'm trying to tie this one down, but it should be the next edition.
	More on that coming soon.
	This time, though, we have another UFO show and another guest who you suggested with a very high profile.
	His name is Grant Cameron.
	If you're in the US, you may well have heard of him, but also if you're in the UK, because this man has been to a number of conventions and conferences here.
	This guy has done a lot of research on what governments and the president of the US know about the UFO phenomenon.
	He's got a pretty long track record in it that goes back almost 40 years to 1975, personal sightings of an object that locally became known where he saw it as Charlie Red Star.
	The sightings occurred in Carmen, Manitoba, 25 miles north of the Canada-US border, apparently, and hundreds of other people sighted objects at the same time.
	Well, he went on from there and began to do an awful lot of intensive research and writing and partner with a lot of very interesting people.
	So we're going to talk with Grant Cameron very soon.
	Just to remind you, if you want to get in touch, triww.theunexplained.tv so we can keep this ball that is the unexplained rolling on.
	Okay, let's get to the U.S., to the central time zone now, six-hour time difference between there and London.
	And hopefully we can connect now with Grant Cameron.
	Grant, thank you for coming on The Unexplained.
	Well, Howard, thanks for having me on.
	I appreciate your interest in what I'm doing.
	And I think I may have made an error in my introduction saying that you're in the United States.
	You're not in the United States at all.
	Yeah, I'm in Canada.
	Okay, now that Canada is a place of a lot of UFO activity.
	I've spoken to a number of people in Canada, including a man, I'm guessing, that you know, Paul Hellier.
	Yes, I know Paul fairly well, yes, in Toronto.
	And I'm more in the middle of the country.
	I'm right above North Dakota.
	I'm in the coldest major city in the world here, so maybe 60 miles from the border.
	And the UFO activity that we had was basically in 1975 when I began.
	It was basically one year of non-stop UFO sightings in a small town called Carmen.
	That's when I got involved.
	But there really has not been any sightings in that town since.
	It was like we always describe it like the CIA took the drugs out of the water.
	Everybody was seeing this thing, and then suddenly it disappeared.
	And after 30 years, I went back and the guy who owned the airport there sort of clued me in as to what was going on.
	I didn't really realize for 30 years why they had appeared in this small town.
	And he said, well, I told you why they appeared.
	And I said, well, Bob, I absolutely don't remember why the UFOs were here.
	I have no idea.
	And he said, I told you, it was the missile silos.
	And when he said that, it all just clued into me that where I live in Manitoba is right above North Dakota.
	And that's where all the Minuteman III missile silos were that were to take out all the Russian cities.
	And basically, they were all targeted by the Russian missiles because basically when the Russians will launch, they're not going to try to take out cities.
	They want to take out the American missiles to stop the American missiles from taking them out.
	So we were basically a target here.
	We're about 60 miles north of these missiles, and Carmen is only about 30 miles north of the missiles.
	And there was always a description that the state of North Dakota in the United States, if it were its own country, it would be one of the biggest nuclear powers in the world.
	There was a thousand Minuteman III nuclear missiles in that place.
	And in 1975, when all the sightings occurred that got me involved, there was the only operational anti-ballistic missile unit in the world.
	And that was in a town called Naser, North Dakota.
	And there was a big, huge missile.
	This was pre-Star Wars.
	And basically what they had was they had a thing called Nixon's Pyramid.
	It was a giant radar array that would pick up the Russian missiles coming in.
	Then they had these five-megaton missiles that would try to, like the Israeli system that they have right now, try to take out these missiles in mid-air before they would hit the ground.
	And if those big five-megaton nuclear warheads missed, then they Had these little sprint missiles with one megaton warheads and would try to take it out as it came in.
	So they had this operational thing, and it was shut down in November of 1975 based on negotiations between the United States and the Soviet Union.
	And the missile and all the UFOs went away in North Dakota and in Manitoba and basically didn't come back.
	So basically, the conclusion I have is that the sightings that we saw were directly related to this anti-ballistic missile unit that the Americans had established in North Dakota, just south of the border.
	Hey, Grant, I'm really massively impressed at how you got straight into it there.
	I was going to ask you, 1975, it was an era where we didn't have the internet.
	We weren't as connected as we are now.
	Stuff like this was regarded even more then as Looney Tunes, you know, than it is now.
	You know, a lot of people very, very dismissive of that time simply because there wasn't the dissemination of information.
	How did you get involved in this?
	What brought you in that era into this?
	Well, basically, it was just I was into near-death studies.
	I was at university.
	I had done a study on dying patients at hospitals and all the weird things that happen around dying patients.
	And that's what I was interested in.
	I was interested in Edgar Casey, the psychic, but I really wasn't interested in UFOs.
	I can't remember ever having thought about UFOs.
	And basically what had happened was in February of 1975, all these sightings started in this small town.
	And it was all over the news and the major city.
	I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is about 35 miles northeast of where these sightings took place.
	And it was a big story in the city.
	It was all over the newspapers and stuff.
	And I told my friends, we used to drive around the city doing really nothing, you know.
	And I said, well, instead of driving around the city, why don't we go out and see what everybody's looking at?
	And we didn't go.
	We didn't go till May of 1975, about three months later.
	And what happened in May of 1975 is the local TV station, both the TV networks were out there trying to film this thing, had actually captured this thing jumping off the ground.
	They had it on the ground, and they filmed this thing jumping off.
	And when that happened, when this film went public, that's when I said to my friends, come on, let's go and see what there was.
	And we went out there, and we drove around in this town, out of the town, in the town, out of the town.
	We were looking around and looking at what we thought maybe were people looking at.
	We look at stars, planets.
	I really didn't know what everybody was looking at.
	And we would say, well, is that what they're looking at?
	And we drove in and out.
	And then my friend said, we'll drive into town one more time.
	And if we don't see anything, we're going home.
	I said, that's fine with me.
	This is a total waste of time.
	And as we were driving into town, after an hour, we were driving into town for the last time.
	This is about midnight.
	We drove in and this thing appeared from the left to the right.
	It was very low to the ground.
	It was very moving very, very slowly.
	It was fairly close.
	It came right in front of the road in front of us.
	And I always tell when I talk about UFOs, people can say, you believe, you disbelieve, and then there's knowing.
	If you have not seen a UFO or if you have not seen someone hit a hole in one or whatever the phenomena is, all you can do is believe or disbelieve.
	But when we saw this thing, nobody said, well, is that what they're talking about?
	Is that what they're describing?
	As soon as this thing appeared, everybody in the car just yelled, there it is.
	We instinctively knew this is what everybody was talking about.
	And it changed my life.
	I fell off the edge of the earth.
	I quit university.
	Well, I didn't quit university, but I just started to take less and less courses.
	I became sort of enthralled with what was this that I saw.
	I did a manuscript.
	Nobody would publish the manuscript.
	A local publisher who should have published it said to me, Mr. Cameron, you may believe in this kind of stuff.
	Count me among the unbelievers.
	And that led me on this quest to forget about the sightings, forget about what happened in Carmen, and to try to figure out somebody in the world must have the answer to what I saw in Carmen.
	And I chased the Canadian government.
	I chased the former president of Penn State University.
	And that led me to chasing the president of the United States and the high-level intelligence officials, trying to find out somebody at some level must know what's going on.
	And this is always the stumbling block, isn't it, Grant?
	I've had a million conversations over the years on this program and other places, you know, mainstream news the whole lot about UFOs.
	And nobody is able to answer the question adequately, who knows what about these phenomena?
	They can hint darkly that, oh, yes, the president knows about this, or some famous entertainer was taken out to some silo somewhere, or Nixon was in the know, or Ronnie Reagan said UFOs are real.
	Nobody's completely sure.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, there are, my conclusion was that based upon my investigation, based upon what the presidents had said, like, for example, in 1982, Ronald Reagan actually stood up and said it was for real.
	And most people don't know this story.
	This was when Steven Spielberg screened E.T. the Extraterrestrial.
	And Steven Spielberg talks about this on tape.
	He said at the end of E.T. the Extraterrestrial, the president stood up.
	He looked around the room as if he was doing a headcount.
	And he said, Stephen, we'd like to thank you for bringing E.T. to the White House.
	It was very enjoyable.
	And I just want to let you know that there are a number of people in this room know that everything on that screen is absolutely true.
	And so the presidents have hinted, Obama has hinted, he was in Roswell in 2012, and he said, we'll keep our secrets on Roswell.
	He basically said, basically he knew what was going on.
	But they're never going to tell you and I what's going on.
	So there are a number of people on the inner levels that know what's going on.
	And so I sort of gave up on the whole who knows what and where they're going to tell us.
	And I had what I call an inspirational download.
	And a number of people have talked about this.
	In fact, I'm doing a manuscript now that talks about this sort of thing about downloads, where inventions come from, where a lot of the Nobel Prize ideas came from.
	And that is that we are being helped.
	We are being sort of downloaded information.
	And what happened to me is I saw one of your fellow countrymen, Colin Andrews, who started the crop circle phenomenon back in 1977.
	And Colin Andrews was giving a lecture in Phoenix, Arizona.
	This is February of 2012.
	I was at the lecture.
	I wasn't going to go, but I figured, well, Colin Andrews is kind of a major figure.
	I should go pay him respect and go watch his lecture.
	And he was talking about consciousness and the crop circles.
	And his basic theory was He was funded by Lawrence Rockefeller, the billionaire, to look into crop circles as to how many were real, how many were hoaxed.
	He came to the conclusion that 80% were hoaxed and that 20% were real.
	He was basically drummed out of the UFO community.
	Everybody said, well, he's working for the government.
	He's a turncoat.
	And during this lecture in 2012, he comes and he makes another lecture and he says 20% are real.
	80% are hoaxed.
	But the 80% are hoaxed.
	They're also being controlled by the aliens.
	The aliens are telling the hoaxers what to do.
	And his lecture was called Consciousness and Crop Circles.
	So he got into this thing about consciousness, that there is this overall idea about consciousness.
	Grant, I don't want to lose that statistic, though.
	80% are fakes, but many of those people are influenced by ET.
	That is really, really easy for somebody who's faking these things to say, isn't it?
	Well, of course, yes, I did it with a motor mower, and we had a template and we went around a field at one o'clock in the morning.
	But in fact, we were influenced by something else.
	I mean, that is a claim that's really hard to stand up, isn't it?
	Yeah, it's a hard thing because, I mean, if some guy's hooks in a crop circle and then suddenly he adds to the story, I mean, he's already proved that he's sort of deceptive.
	So why would you believe the second part of his story?
	But the thing was that when Colin Andrews gave this lecture, what happened to me is I had, I started in 1975, so I've been at this for 40 years.
	And as I said, I'd gone to the Canadian government.
	I'd gone to Eric Walker, who's the former president of Penn State University, chairman of the board of the Institute of Defense Analysis.
	He had 14 honorary doctorate degrees.
	I had done the presidents and stuff.
	And so I had accumulated all this information.
	It was in the back of my head.
	And when Colin Andrews is giving this lecture on consciousness, suddenly I get what I call an inspirational download.
	Suddenly there's three things that pop into my head from 40 years of research that suddenly everything made sense.
	And this is what I describe when I talk about inspirations, is that it's not just an idea that comes into your head, but it's an idea that pops into your head that you know absolutely 100% is right.
	This is a real idea.
	It all fits together.
	And I just like, wow, why didn't I figure out this before?
	And what happened?
	So is that what?
	Is that your brain processing or is that somebody else from somewhere else giving you some data?
	I would say you're sort of going into whatever you want to call it, a sort of a second dimension, a non-local dimension.
	And it's the same sort of thing that when I describe Nobel Prize winners, I go through eight Nobel Prize winners who basically got this thing in a dream or got it in sitting on a park bench.
	It's this inspirational type thing where you'll work through the process, work through the process, and then you'll be sitting there on a park bench, not even thinking about it.
	And suddenly you'll get this sort of inspiration where the idea for insulin or theory of relativity or a lot of these Nobel Prizes, they didn't come by rational.
	They came through dreams like Einstein.
	It came in a dream.
	He describes this dream.
	He said, my whole career has been based upon a dream.
	This whole theory of relativity was based upon something that happened in a dream.
	But isn't this a little bit like studying for an exam?
	I can remember all the horrendous exams that I sat, and I'm really pleased I don't have to take them anymore.
	But I would spend days and hours revising stuff.
	I would type sheets out and then retype the sheets and then try and memorize and learn them.
	And they just wouldn't go home.
	And then sometimes I would go to bed.
	Next morning, exam morning, I would wake up and I had them perfectly placed in a template in my head.
	That's not magic.
	That's just the brain.
	Well, I would disagree.
	I mean, I would say it's what Paul McCartney and even the Beatles used to call the 10,000 hour rule, that when you've done something 10,000 hours, then suddenly it looks easy, that it starts to work together.
	But you can take things where you get guys who are doing these tremendous mathematical things or memorization things where they can memorize pie to 22,514 places or whatever.
	Where is that stuff being stored?
	I mean, if you're saying there's work that was done in the 1950s by Perbrim and Lasher and guys like this, who basically took a brain of a rat and cut the brain into little pieces and ran these different rats through the maze, and they could never get the memory to leave the rat, no matter which part of the brain they cut out.
	And they came to the conclusion that the memory is not in the brain.
	And they came out to this idea that it was non-local, that it was like a hologram, that the memory was across the sort of the spectrum, that it really wasn't in any one section of the brain.
	So this is the whole thing about consciousness is consciousness, I say, now is the key.
	And this is what popped into my head.
	And there was three main things, three main things that popped into my head.
	One was a top-secret document that I had quoted numerous times.
	And it said in 1950, the Canadians had gone to the Americans, and they wanted to know from the Americans at a classified level, what's the story on flying saucers.
	So they went, and the information that came back and was put in a top-secret document, which is not denied by the Canadian government.
	It's in the Canadian government archives.
	It was declassified in 1978.
	And it says, we were told by American officials, not people on the street, American officials, flying saucers exist.
	It's the most highly classified subject in the United States.
	There's a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush, who was the science advisor to President Roosevelt.
	And he's working on this program.
	And it's of tremendous significance.
	And then the line that popped into my head as Colin Andrews is giving this lecture is a line that I'd seen numerous times.
	And suddenly I went, that's what this means.
	And the next line in the document says, we were also told by American officials that other things might be associated with the flying saucers, such as mental phenomena.
	And the Americans aren't doing very well because they've said if we are working on the program, they're willing to exchange credentials and talk to us.
	The key to that is this is 1950.
	This is before anybody ever talked to an alien.
	There was no contactees.
	There was no abductees.
	There was nobody saying we're talking to aliens, and they're talking telepathically in our head.
	So the Canadians knew in 1950, they'd been told by the Americans that mental phenomena was associated with the flying sausage.
	So this pops into my head.
	The second thing that pops into my head is we're having, we chased this Dr. Eric Walker, who's a former president of Penn State University.
	We chased him for eight years.
	We had a number of conversations.
	He's being interviewed by a guy from Britain.
	During the conversation, they're trying to get out of Walker, and he doesn't want to talk.
	They're trying to say, the control group, is there just 12 people in the control group?
	Is it all Americans?
	Is it more than that?
	And Walker cuts him off and he says, look, let me ask you a question.
	What do you know about ESP?
	Totally unrelated to the subject.
	And I've seen this interview numerous times.
	I didn't know what it meant.
	He said, What do you know about ESP?
	And the guy from Britain that was interviewing him said, Well, you know, he really didn't have an answer.
	So Walker answers his own question.
	He said, Look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in.
	He's talking about the control group.
	Very few people understand how it works.
	That's 1991.
	1993, the third thing that pops into my head as Colin Andrews is lecturing is a lecture that was given by Ben Rich, who was the head of Lockheed Skunk Works, the top black military operation in the United States that created the SR-71 spy plane, the U-2 spy plane, the stealth fighter, all the drones that are flying around.
	That's all Lockheed Skunkworks.
	That's black ops technology.
	And he says during his lecture, the last slide he shows is a flying saucer.
	He says, we now have the technology to take E.T. home.
	Everybody in the audience laughs.
	There's two guys who are UFO guys in the audience.
	One is the present international director of MUFON, the biggest UFO group in the world.
	And he's sitting there.
	And Jan Hartson, and at the end of the lecture, he realizes this is important.
	He goes to Ben Rich and he says, I'm interested in flying saucers.
	I'm interested in the propulsion.
	How do they get here?
	And Ben Rich turns around and he said, let me ask you a question.
	This is 1993, two years after Walker.
	He said, let me ask you a question.
	What do you know about ESP?
	And Jan Hartson says, I don't know.
	It just means everything in time and space is connected.
	And Ben Rich said, that's how it works.
	Turns around, walks out of the room, gets in his car, and drives away.
	So there's three things that popped in my head that all say that mental phenomena is the basis of the whole UFO phenomena.
	That's how they get here.
	That's how they move through time and space.
	And once I gave that lecture, I was approached by a woman in Phoenix, Arizona, the first of 24 people who came to me, and I was blown away when I first heard it.
	And she was talking to me about doing remote viewing for the government and all this sort of stuff.
	She wanted to meet with me.
	So I meet with her, and then she suddenly says to me, oh, I flew the flying saucer.
	I said, you what?
	Oh, yeah, I've flown three different types of flying saucers.
	I said, they actually let you fly the flying saucer?
	She says, yes.
	I says, well, how do you do it?
	And she says, you do it with your mind.
	That was the first of 24 people that I've now been in contact with who say that's how they fly the ship.
	And so you have this idea that mental phenomena, if you understand that, you start to understand the UFO phenomena, that when you break down physical matter, you break it down to atoms and then you break it down to quarks and then you break it down, break it down.
	It comes down.
	It's all just energy.
	It's all potentiality.
	There really is no physical universe.
	And that at the basis of this whole thing, it's a non-physical world.
	It's controlled by consciousness.
	So I think we're starting to understand how this whole thing is put together.
	But what about, I'm sorry to interrupt you, Grant, because you're going great guns with all of this.
	And it's an amazing narrative that you have there.
	But this year, in particular, if you look at the Huffington Post or you look at some of the British newspapers or you go to YouTube, you will see hundreds of UFO claimed sightings.
	They are traditional metal craft.
	They may be cylinders.
	They may be discs, whatever they may be.
	I have the feeling that most of them are probably rubbish or fakes, but not all of them can be.
	How can they be in people's minds if we're actually seeing them?
	Well, it comes down to what are you seeing?
	I mean, what's happening in your head, Howard?
	I mean, you have a little videotape, I mean, a little screen inside your head.
	I mean, this is the whole deal of consciousness.
	When you start looking at consciousness, where is the image?
	Your brain is like a TV receiver.
	I mean, because you have a TV receiver, it doesn't mean that there's a little soccer game going inside the TV.
	The soccer game is going on someplace else.
	Your mind and your brain is just the receiver that's picking this stuff up.
	So what I say when it comes to UFOs, let me give you an example.
	People say, well, you see the UFO.
	It's a material metal craft.
	I say, when I do my consciousness lecture, I say, why do UFOs have lights on them?
	When people are being abducted, the UFOs, nobody sees the UFO.
	I mean, it can cloak itself.
	It can do whatever it wants.
	It goes, it picks up the person, does whatever.
	So when the craft is seen and has lights on it, John Lennon's sighting, for example, John Lennon describes this object close enough to hit with a rock.
	It's got these lights around the bottom.
	It's got a red light on the top.
	So why does it have lights?
	We don't need lights on our craft.
	The only reason we have lights is for safety reasons.
	We don't need lights on our craft.
	So why would they have lights?
	They have lights on them.
	People have assumed over the years it's some kind of propulsion system, haven't they?
	Doesn't that make sense?
	John Lennon's wouldn't.
	He has little tiny lights.
	He said lights like on an old billboard.
	Small white lights are on the bottom and a red light on top.
	So it's like a light.
	The lights are on there, so you can see it.
	Every single craft looks different.
	It has a different lighting formation on it.
	And why would you see it at one time and why would you not see it when they're abducting people?
	Why don't you see it?
	Why does nobody ever see anybody being abducted?
	Okay, if all this stuff is being implanted into our heads, somebody has the mental ability to do this.
	And those people are the ETs.
	Where are they?
	Well, they are moving around.
	And the whole concept is that you see what they want you to see.
	This is all the whole thing about they understand consciousness.
	They understand how the world works, that it's not really a physical world.
	And it comes down to the idea, what's the difference between a human and an alien?
	If you look, there is only one difference.
	They have metal, they have crafts, they have doors, they have benches, they have tables, they have males, females, two hands, two legs.
	Everything is the same.
	There's only one difference between humans and aliens.
	Aliens are telepathic.
	That's the main difference.
	If you take a look at them and us, that's the only difference.
	They're telepathic.
	They understand how the mind works, how consciousness works.
	They can move through time and space.
	And you get into the whole quantum physics thing, and you get into this non-locality and all this kind of stuff where you can start to see how they're operating or the whole idea of the physical universe.
	You say, well, it's a physical world.
	You can knock on something and you get these people describing how they go through walls and windows.
	And you say, well, that's total nonsense.
	You can't take something through a wall, through a window, because it's solid.
	And then you take a look and you look at 1911 already, over 100 years ago, the whole experiment with the gold foil experiment, where it was determined that all of the universe is basically space.
	That if you take all the space from the human beings, 7 billion human beings on the earth, you take out all the space between their atoms, you put all the matter together you are left with a pile of matter the size of a grain of rice it's all space so if it's all space if if if if you're basically it's magnetic fields holding together this this sort of what we think is a physical body and it's all space well then how hard would it be to take something that's all space a human a body through
	wall which is all space they understand how it works we just don't understand how it works but if it is all virtual then how come so many people say that they are doing dna experiments on us there's a lot of documented evidence about that they wouldn't bother with that physical stuff would they if everything was virtual well it depends what they're doing what they're doing the the dna stuff for i mean you you take a look at what's their ultimate purpose somebody say well um you know the whole idea that they're here to eat us or there it's a bad thing they're going to take out the world they i don't think they have any interest whatsoever in
	in really the the physical world they're basically here if they're doing dna experiments they may be uh getting a um a civilization on another planet they may be upgrading our dna they'd be moving us along that that it doesn't make any sense that they would want to sort of uh take take over the the physical world they're they're we're sort of implying what we would do it this is an american idea that we're going to go over to iraq and we're going to you know bring jesus uh christianity and mcdonald's to to the world you know this kind of
	idea that that that's how you save people and and they really aren't if you take a look at what they're doing i mean it's the whole idea of of um why are they teaching us to fly this spaceship and we know definitely we have a number of contactees who are talking about mathematics they're being downloaded with this mathematics with mathematical formulas um some of them being told that they're they're being given cures to cancers and stuff like this and there's a lot of this download stuff so why are they doing this kind of stuff if they're that grant that's really
	interesting because there's a guy he's a local politician in the uk uh in yorkshire north yorkshire who i spoke to a few months ago who said exactly what you're saying he's had a lifetime of this stuff and he is being given what he called downloads of information so it seems to me that from what you're saying a lot of this stuff is happening it's very common it's surprisingly common i'm lecturing at uh zero which is the biggest sort of export support group for abductees this is run byivan smith who's done 25 years of regression of
	people i'm doing there i did a we did a poll i did a poll with the um people before i go like i'm lecturing next month and i asked these questions like how many people have uh been downloading information how many people have uh claimed they've flown the ship and it's it's quite a number it's not all of them but we have a number of people in the united states who are getting uh tremendous amounts of materials a doctor a female doctor in new york city who's gotten the uh unified field theory and this is being looked at by dr
	edgar mitchell and by uh rudy shield who uh uh from harvard university they're looking at this stuff and they're saying it's not nonsense what this woman's putting out she's a medical doctor who got this download of 25 pages of the unified field theory so why are they downloading this stuff why are they giving this kind of stuff it seems like why would they why would they give the unified field theory which what i understand of it is basically the answer to pretty much all the questions that we've been asking in science why would they give it to this person and not uh maybe some nobel prize winner
	well because uh nobel prize winner people are people who are basically set in their ways that's why i do that i do the whole music thing i do the whole thing about beetles or stones all these people all the downloads that they got and and ideas and how many of them claim to have been abducted and all this kind of stuff and it's the whole idea that that um you you're you you have people who are set in their ways once you're 20 years old i don't think the the aliens care about you that's why when they do abductions they start with
	young children whose minds aren't set that once you're in a in a field uh for example you take a look at the national academy of sciences the national in the national academy of sciences 2000 top scientists in the united states there's only four percent of them believe in any sort of paranormal or uh you know phenomena like ufos or psychic phenomena there's only seven percent of them believe in god they're very very it's almost like the vatican yeah but what they look for is documented proof and
	it seems to me that you told me that you've got these three ideas downloaded into your head during a lecture um that's not proof that's you that's the the synthesis of of the theses that you've been looking into isn't it is that's not proof there's no such thing as proof and there's no such there's no such thing what they are looking for is physical evidence they're saying if you want to prove to me that ufos you have to give me something that i can measure that i can see that i can touch it's not a physical phenomena hey for example let me give you an example the
	moody blues which i believe is a british band moody blues talk about their abduction experience in 1967 the moody blues talk about the fact and they met with colin andrews they they wanted to talk to colin andrews after a lecture so colin said okay fine so they have uh john pinder who's the head of the moody blues and they have the lead guitarist i think was there so they go for lunch they go for dinner and they're talking and they're telling colin andrews that they believe that they were they were abducted and that they had been given a
	mission on the earth and they remember before they were born and this is very important they remember before they were born being given this mission that they were going to put in lyrics into songs that this was part of their role if anybody has made an agreement to do this ufo thing before they were born and we i'm gathering a number of people who are making these kinds of claims the moody blues not a crazy bunch of guys if they made this agreement before they were born it is not a physical problem it is a
	spiritual problem that means reincarnation exists that means that the abductees are agreeing to this that they're a part of a plan that they have agreed to do this sort of thing once you go past before birth then the whole physical thing disappears then it becomes multiple lives and and when you take a look at reincarnation it's all experience you go through this experience you go through that experience as shakespeare said all the world's a stage All the men and women are but actors.
	They have their entrances and they have their exits, and each man plays many roles.
	That is my conclusion as to what that is.
	So, you're saying about the Moody Blues, one of my favorite albums is Days of Future Past.
	You cannot do much better than Knights in White Saturn.
	Are you saying that the lyrics in that are actually more than just fabulous pieces of creativity that stimulate the brain and make you feel good?
	There's more to them than meets the ear?
	Oh, absolutely.
	And they say it directly.
	And Pinder says directly, they recall, they remember coming into the earth.
	They remember the agreement before.
	I mean, you take a look at, and I go through all these different musicians.
	The song yesterday by Paul McCartney, he says clearly came in a dream.
	He woke up.
	The piano was there.
	Everything came through.
	Satisfaction, no satisfaction by the rolling stones.
	Clearly, he woke up.
	It's on tape.
	He wakes up.
	He's got the riff of no satisfaction.
	He sings it into the tape recorder and you can hear him snoring.
	He goes back to sleep again.
	The whole idea of Edison, his whole idea of invention was this whole idea that he used this technique where he would, there's this altered state.
	Just before you go to sleep, you're awake and just as you're going to sleep, you go into this hippogonogic state.
	And he used it and a bunch of other people used it.
	And what he did is he'd take two steel balls, he'd hold them in his hand, and he would nap and he would sort of meditate.
	And as soon as he would go to sleep, his hand would let go of the two steel balls.
	They would fall into a steel plate.
	It would wake him up and then he would write down his ideas.
	And he was using the same thing.
	He was using this altered state between sleep and being awake to invent stuff.
	And so we're starting to learn this.
	If you can get into an altered state, it's like going to London.
	There's many ways to go to London.
	You can fly, you can walk, you can take a train.
	There's various ways that people have learned to get into altered states.
	And it's during the altered states when you get out of the rational mind.
	And let me give you an example.
	And Britain is big on this.
	A lot of savants, skeptics, people who are saying it's a physical world and it's all random or whatever, will admit that savants exist.
	These people who can do unbelievable things in their head.
	And these people, basically what's happened is they have left brain damage.
	And the left brain is the rational brain.
	It's the one that talks.
	And when you have left brain, when the rational brain is shut down, the right brain is able to do all this kind of stuff.
	And this, in a couple of days, there's a very important lecture about to take place in California.
	It's done by Dr. Diane Powell.
	And I say this is Nobel Prize.
	If it weren't physical world and people believed in this UFO and psychic phenomena, this would be Nobel Prize.
	And what she did is she took a nonverbal savant who claimed the person who was controlling this girl said that she believed this little girl was reading her mind.
	She went under an experiment.
	What Diane did was she gave this nonverbal autistic, because now they can type on computers and they can communicate with them.
	She was giving her numbers, 18 and 19 digit numbers that she would give to the controller, the woman, the handler that took care of the girl, give her these numbers, and the girl would type out the number telepathically, picking off 18 and 19 digit numbers with no mistakes.
	Then she gave her a 162 digit target.
	The girl had the number.
	The nonverbal autistic girl, 10 years old, started to type it out.
	She got seven wrong.
	Diane Powell said, you got it wrong.
	The girl started to type it out again.
	And the second time, 162 digits, Howard.
	She got, and this is all control, scientific done.
	It's taped, and it's going to be presented in a couple of days.
	162 digits.
	She got every single number right.
	The odds of that are 10 to the 162nd power.
	And to give you an idea how big a number that is, in the known universe, there is only 10 to the 80th atoms in the known universe.
	In a trillion universes, there is only 10 to the 90 second power.
	This is 10 to the 160 second power.
	One chance in 10 to the 160 second power.
	This is unbelievable to pick off 162 digits telepathically with no mistakes.
	So it proves that there is a non-local world.
	There is the physical world, then there is all sorts of other sort of less physical, non-local worlds where if you can get into that world, however you do it, you can pick up inventions, you can pick up ideas.
	Everything is there.
	It's like a dream state, and that's where this is all happening.
	We're starting to learn this whole thing, that consciousness is the basis of the universe, and the physical is only a manifestation of this conscious world.
	So we live in this world, and it's almost like being in radio or visual spectrum.
	We only get a small part of the visual and the audio spectrum that we can pick up.
	We're starting to learn that there's a lot more to the universe than just the physical world that we can see and hear.
	Okay, where does this tie into ETs?
	Are we saying that ETs, whatever they may be, wherever they may be, are trying to re-enliven this part of our brains, this forgotten part of us that we have?
	We can all communicate on this level, and I've always believed that we do.
	It's just some people do it better than others, as I've seen many times in my life.
	Are we saying that ETs are trying to bring that back alive within us?
	Well, ETs are here for a couple of reasons.
	And the one is this whole idea that they're raising our consciousness.
	The ETs, as I said, there's the only difference between us and ETs is they're telepathic, which means they understand consciousness.
	They understand this secondary world.
	They can move in and out of the world.
	They can see the future.
	And there's lots and lots and lots of people who've been on the ship who suddenly become psychic.
	They're able to see the future.
	We have piles and piles of these stories.
	So they're sort of being taught this sort of aspect.
	The main reason that they're here, and in my lecture, when I'm lecturing in Leeds next month, when I do that, the one slide I'm going to show is a photo from 1945 from Nagasaki Harbor.
	And this is a flying saucer.
	This is two weeks after the Americans dropped the atomic bomb.
	There's a flying saucer over top of Nagasaki Harbor.
	And the reason I believe they're here is because we're at this sort of tipping point.
	We have nuclear weapons, which disturbed not only our planet but disturbed the whole universe.
	And we also have this ecological disaster taking place.
	If you take a look at almost every single person who claims to be an abductee who's been on the ship has been shown these traumatic images of the world, the destruction of the world, and these sort of things.
	And if you take a look.
	Isn't that something reported by Betty and Barney Hill?
	I'm not sure whether they reported that.
	In the recent past, I'm thinking of the later ones.
	I'm not sure whether Betty and Barney Hill did, but almost everyone is shown these things.
	And a lot of people will say, well, it's just the aliens jerking our chain.
	They want to see our reaction to this stuff.
	No, I think it's much more serious than that.
	And you even get that when it gets into musicians.
	There's a song that was written by Neil Young, and it's been done by a number of people.
	It was written in 1968.
	And in this one, he has the alien message.
	And he talks about aliens.
	He talks about the silver seeds, which are the flying saucers that will come and take the chosen one and put them on another planet.
	And what it's called, the song is called After the Gold Rush.
	And it says, we're treating the world like a gold rush.
	And when the gold is gone, it's going to be a ghost town.
	And that's when the silver seeds will come and take the chosen ones and put them on another planet.
	Listen, that song was a hit here.
	I think it was a hit for somebody else.
	But I've always been captivated and stimulated by the lyrics of that, talking about Mother Nature's Silver Seed going to a new home in the sun.
	You know, those were for 1974, which I think was when this was a hit over here.
	Pretty profound stuff.
	Yeah.
	And I really didn't realize.
	I mean, I'm not a musical type person.
	The only reason that I got into the music thing and the lyric type stuff was that one of the main contactees, abductees in the United States is a guy by the named Chris Bletso.
	Warner Brothers is now doing an $80 million movie on his story.
	He contacted me and he said, I've been told by the aliens that they are influencing music.
	And I went, okay, whatever.
	And I didn't really pay any attention to it.
	And the songs he gave me, number one, were Neil Young and After the Gold Rush.
	The other one he gave me was Led Zeppelin's Cashmere.
	And so he gave that to me.
	And I really didn't pay any attention to it until suddenly I heard Colin Andrews talk about it.
	And Colin Andrews talks about Reg Presley from the Trogs and his experience and his being downloaded a song, Love is All Around.
	That was all downloaded to him.
	Did you ever meet him, Grant?
	No, I never did.
	Well, I did a show with him.
	I met him face to face in the studio, Reg.
	Yeah.
	And he was an amazing character and he was driven, an astonishingly driven man, but he wanted to get the truth out there about crop circles.
	That was his big thing.
	Sure.
	And he got this download.
	The song, Love Is All Around, clearly, he said, was influenced.
	It was downloaded.
	They helped him distribute it.
	It was a major thing.
	So Colin told me that story.
	Then he told me the story about Reg Presley and then the story about Sting and the crop circles.
	And Colin Andrews had five bands, five major musicians who had contacted him and basically were telling him this story that they had been influenced and that their songs weren't coming from their rational brain.
	And so that's when I got into this thing.
	And then I started to look and then I started to realize that a lot of songs come through LSD or it's come through dreams or all this kind of stuff.
	And I started to realize and then I gave a lecture and everybody said, oh, that's just the devil.
	That's not aliens.
	That's the devil.
	So then I started looking back at church music, at Handel and Bach and Tchaikovsky.
	It's the same thing.
	They're talking about the downloads and how they would work hard and then they would take a rest and then suddenly the song would come into their head and music and stuff.
	This has been going on forever.
	And I realized that there is this component, life, that people get inspirations, they get downloads, and that we are being helped.
	And you can go through all the inventions.
	The Xerox machine guy, the guy who invented the Xerox machine, clearly said it came from spirits.
	No reservation about that at all.
	He's the guy who put up all the money for the reincarnation research that was done by Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia.
	People don't realize this kind of stuff.
	We think that we rationalized all this stuff.
	And when I go through all this stuff and I go through the inventions and I go through all the songs and the ancient music and the Nobel Prizes, you start to go and you go like, wow, I mean, this is unbelievable.
	But Christ, just one quick thing here that I must interject, if I may.
	You know, at the moment, we have a very serious situation in Ukraine.
	Everybody's looking at Putin.
	Nobody knows what's going to happen next.
	We have a very serious situation unfolding in the north of Iraq right now.
	We have countless trouble spots around the world.
	Now, if aliens are trying to download us with information for the good, what are they doing about these situations?
	Well, again, I say that's an American idea.
	That's, you know, the American idea is we bring, you know, freedom, democracy, Jesus, and McDonald's to the world.
	This is our idea how to save people, that we go in there, we invade the country, and we turn them all over to Christianity, and we force them to have our view.
	This is not how it works.
	I mean, people are at whatever level they are, and people have to progress.
	The aliens are not here to force us to do anything.
	They are here to indirectly tell us this kind of stuff, give people inspiration, raise consciousness.
	But in the end, I mean, if it's a reincarnation world, it's all experience.
	So who cares what happens in the Ukraine?
	Who cares?
	I mean, you're going to go through a number of lives.
	Eventually, everybody's going to figure it out.
	It's not something we've got to figure out today.
	We don't have to save the world.
	And because when it comes right down to it, if you're going to go to Putin, Putin has got his ideas.
	You are not going to convert Putin.
	You are not going to influence the sort of radical Muslims.
	What you've got to realize is if you, there was one guy that was captured by them, and he said he couldn't believe it, that these guys absolutely believed that the West was there, and they were going to destroy the Muslim world.
	And so they have their set beliefs.
	And you've got to realize that everybody has their set beliefs, and everybody's teeing off of these set beliefs.
	That really nothing's going to change.
	You are not going to change the Muslims, you're not going to convert this part of the world, you're not going to change North Korea.
	People have to go through, it's a reincarnation world, people have to progress through their stages.
	But if we worked along those, and I understand exactly where you're coming from, but if we worked on that premise, then Hitler would be in charge, whoever descended from Hitler would be in charge of the United Kingdom right now, because we'd have sat back and let that happen.
	But you only can do what you can do for yourself, Howard.
	You're living your life.
	You can't really, I mean, you can do your voting and you can do whatever, but it's basically you can only influence your personal life.
	And in the end, I mean, it's still a reincarnation world where it may take 100 years, a thousand years, a million years for this thing to work itself out, that you're going to have these battles back and forth and that eventually things are progressing.
	People will say the world's going to hell in a handbasket.
	And I say, this is absolute nonsense.
	Look back 150 years.
	It was quite conceivable to say, oh, women shouldn't vote.
	You should be able to own a slave.
	In the 1960s, the American Psychiatric Association considered gay people to be psychiatric illnesses.
	I mean, we are progressing.
	We're moving along slowly, but we are progressing.
	So if that's the way things work, why are VETs so concerned about us destroying and polluting our planet to hell?
	Because if nothing matters, then that doesn't matter either.
	Well, because the whole thing of life is that you're trying to add to the world.
	You're trying to make it a better place.
	Everybody wants to be something in their life, and we're destroying not only our planet, but we're destroying the, if you understand how the universe works, it's not just individual, you're thinking back to the physical world where it's individual particles and nobody affects anybody else.
	If you take a look at the big quantum physicists, whether it's Einstein or whether it's Bohm or Bohr or all these different people, it is a one universe.
	Everything is connected to the one.
	It's Edgar Mitchell coming back from the moon saying that he suddenly, as he's coming back to the Earth, he suddenly realized that everything is part of a one.
	Everything is connected and that it's, you know, the one small mind is connected to the big mind, all that kind of stuff.
	So we're not only destroying our world, we're destroying the entire universe.
	We're setting off this oneness of the universe.
	And Bohm, who's not a UFO guy, talked about this whole concept that unless you realize that you have to work towards the whole, you have to do this kind of stuff, we're going off the cliff because our world view now is that you need bigger and better, bigger economies, more money, bigger houses, more cars, all this kind of stuff.
	And he said basically the same message as the aliens, that unless you understand that the world is one and that you're responsible for the one and you protect the economy, the ecology, the universe, the world, we're going off the cliff because we're basically just going to use up all the resources.
	And Bohm described it as it is as if a swarm of locusts had descended upon the earth.
	And that's basically what's happening is we're just using up the resources.
	And that's what the aliens are here is trying to stop this, trying to move it without forcing us to do, you know, forcing the sort of American model that we're going to convert people and force them to believe this kind of stuff.
	It's this gradual sort of giving warnings and trying to get us on this path.
	Yeah, but have we learned anything?
	Because our solution to this is to start to look outside this planet to talk about colonizing Mars.
	There's a guy, a group of people who've just spent a number of months in a little dome underground, I think in Hawaii, trying to live as if they would on the surface of Mars.
	We're looking to other planets for resources.
	We're not learning these lessons, are we?
	No, well, we're learning the lessons.
	That's what I'm saying.
	If you look over the last 150 years, I mean, we have progressed an awful lot.
	We always, because I call it the CNN Kool-Aid.
	I mean, we sit there and we watch the CNN Kool-Aid every day, and we drink this stuff, and we believe the world's coming to an end, and it's a terrible place, and it's horrible, and it's this thing to keep us watching and to keep us thing.
	But if you take a look over 150 years, you realize that we are progressing, we are evolving, we are better than we were 150 years.
	We're starting to learn this lesson.
	The idea of the ecology, just the idea of the ecology didn't start till 1935.
	Before 1935, it was the independent particles.
	I can dump whatever I want, Howard.
	If I want to dump stuff into the ocean and I want to dump it into the river, I can do it.
	Now it's different.
	You can't smoke in public.
	You can't dump stuff into the river.
	We're starting to learn that you have to be responsible to the ecology, to the one, that there is an overall, it's not just an independent, you can do what you want.
	So how did we get there?
	Is that part of the natural dialectic of things?
	In other words, there is a theory and synthesis and the three steps of it to we get to the synthesis at the end and then we're on the right path.
	But you were saying at the start of this that the ETs are influencing our minds, influencing the way that we think and wanting us to go in a particular direction.
	Surely you've just argued against yourself by saying we're heading that way anyway.
	Heading which way?
	No, I mean, we're heading towards what we've said, we've improved.
	We gradually, even though things go wrong, we do terrible things, ultimately we go on a zigzag path.
	We go up, we go down, we do right things, wrong things, but in the end, the ultimate end of all things is good.
	I don't get where ETs come into this.
	Well, they're part of the process.
	It's not just ETs.
	I mean, there's a lot of people who will claim that they're getting spiritual influence.
	Santana, Carlos Santana, one of the second biggest albums ever, he said was directly influenced by an archangel Metatron.
	He's very clear about where he's getting his music from.
	So it's not just aliens.
	We're getting influence from a lot of different people.
	It's not that we're figuring this stuff out on ourselves.
	We're getting a lot of help from different people and we are progressing slowly but surely.
	It's not that, you know, we don't have to solve the problem tomorrow.
	Life comes down to not, did we solve the problem today?
	Do we have a bigger car?
	Do we have enough money?
	It comes down to what are you doing with your life?
	Are you evolving?
	And it's a progress that you and I and everybody are going through these multiple lives.
	And that's that you evolve, that you go through these different things.
	It really doesn't matter where the world Is it's what are you doing inside that world to better yourself?
	Are you learning anything?
	Are you evolving?
	Are you moving back?
	And I think the world is progressing, and we're getting help from a lot of different sources.
	This is not something that is an independent, rational world where consciousness is an illusion, we're biological robots, we have no free will.
	This is the kind of nonsense that secular science is putting out.
	And it's not that way.
	We're getting help.
	It's a world where consciousness rules, where consciousness is the basis.
	But it's an independent world where all the world's a stage.
	You set up your play.
	You set up all the things that you want to learn in this life.
	And at the end of your life, basically, I believe you're asked one question.
	How did you make out?
	You set up the play.
	How did you make out?
	Okay, next life, you're going to go through this.
	You're going to learn jealousy.
	You're going to go through these different things.
	And the whole world is just a play.
	It's not something we've got to win.
	It's not like we have to convert everybody to Christianity and everybody has to have two cars and a big house.
	That's not the way it works.
	It's learning lessons.
	It's not what cards are dealt to you.
	It's how do you play the cards that are dealt to you?
	Okay, now you know that I've got thousands of listeners and I'm very grateful to them and for them all over the world.
	Some of those people give it to me straight when I have somebody on that they don't understand or they don't agree with, okay?
	And I think some of those people have got their fingers poised over their keyboards right now to say, what is this man trying to tell us?
	He is firing out material a thousand miles an hour.
	I don't get it.
	You're going to Leeds.
	You're going to lecture there.
	You go all over the world.
	You write.
	If you want to leave my listeners with one message, what would that one clear message be?
	The clear message is that consciousness, the idea of consciousness is the basis of the universe.
	That it is not a physical world.
	It is not a world that is random.
	It is a world that is based on patterns.
	That everything happens according to patterns.
	You do what you can with your life.
	That the alien thing is only one of many experiences, one set of things of people that are helping us progress, that we are evolving.
	Life is evolution.
	It's progressing, but it occurs over many lives.
	I think the most important thing that you said, and I've believed this since I was a teenager when I started learning these things, that if you think that life is a random set of events, then just have a look back at your life carefully and you'll see that it isn't.
	I've never believed that it is.
	So I think that that message is incredibly valuable.
	I also think that the idea that we're connected mentally and have capacities that we are only obliquely aware of in a few cases, most people just don't, they watch reality TV.
	That's all they want to know.
	I think we have that.
	What interests me about you is the way that you tie it into the UFO phenomenon.
	That's what I find fascinating and extremely interesting.
	You've studied various U.S. presidents and what those presidents knew.
	And I know that you've done things like freedom of information, document requests.
	And I was interested to see, Grant, that you got information on the Clinton presidency.
	Now, those of us who think of Bill Clinton over here, we kind of think that he was fairly preoccupied with Monica Lewinsky and staying in office when he was president and not much else.
	But you found out some stuff about him and UFOs.
	Yeah, he was very interested.
	I gave a lecture in Arkansas.
	I was approached by a woman whose sister owned the famous barbecue restaurant where the Clintons used to hang out before they were married.
	And she told me that they'd had an experience.
	So Bill was very interested.
	He actually told one fellow, Paul Davids, he was fascinated with the subject.
	They were very much into New Age type material.
	For example, Hillary Clinton's spiritual advisor was Jean Houston, who was teaching her how to sort of channel Gandhi.
	Eleanor Roosevelt wanted her to sort of channel Jesus.
	She was into this until the Washington Post broke the story.
	They were very sort of into this kind of stuff, and Bill had actually sent out Webster Hubble, who is his assistant secretary of assistant in the Justice Department, to find the answer to two questions.
	And one was, who killed JFK?
	Because Bill was fascinated with JFK.
	And the second was, are there UFOs?
	He was fascinated in the subject of UFOs.
	So Bill was very interested in it.
	And Lawrence Rockefeller pushed the issue.
	He was a billionaire philanthropist who pushed the issue and caused a thousand pages of documents that I managed to get a hold of from the White House that talked about this interaction between the president and Lawrence Rockefeller.
	And Bill Clinton went out and actually reinvestigated the Roswell crash.
	That happened because of this pressure from Rockefeller.
	So he was very interested in the subject.
	But I think all presidents were sort of very interested.
	Jimmy Carter had a sighting.
	Ronald Reagan had two sightings.
	Ronald Reagan actually had a sighting, according to Shirley McClain, where he actually interacted with an alien, and the alien actually told him to run for president.
	And this is a story that occurred.
	And there's a number of people.
	Lucille Ball sort of confirms the fact that Reagan sort of talked about this.
	And Stephen Allen, who was a comedian, confirmed that this happened at this cocktail party, that Reagan had come in all excited about this UFO sighting.
	So a lot of the presidents are very interested.
	I do think they know.
	I think they're briefed on this subject.
	But what about JFK?
	There is a whole conspiracy industry around JFK suggesting that he was planning to go public about some of this stuff.
	And that is one of the reasons he ended up getting shot.
	I have my doubts on that.
	I think he knew, but he didn't even serve one term.
	He had limited time.
	I think a lot of this stuff has been sort of put by disinformation counterintelligence people in the government have put this sort of stuff out.
	I think he played the same thing.
	I think all the presidents play the game according to the rules.
	If the president didn't know what was going on, if he wasn't in charge, I think there'd be defections.
	There are no defections in the process, which I think means that everybody who's on the other side, we think that the government's evil, they're covering this stuffing up.
	Everybody who's involved on the other side, I believe, thinks that they're following the rules, that they are doing the right thing.
	Otherwise, you'd have defections.
	There's nobody defecting.
	There's nobody coming out with the answer.
	So I think they're basically, it's the whole idea of telepathy.
	That when the Roswell crash, the reason that the Canadians in 1950 knew that mental phenomena was involved, that the Americans told them, was not because anybody talked to an alien, but because in 1947 there was a crash at Roswell, New Mexico.
	And the big story that we now know is not four dead aliens, it was three dead aliens and one live alien.
	So when the Americans went to pick up the Roswell crash, they picked up the craft, but they also picked up an alien who was telepathically talking in their head.
	And that's why the Canadians in 1950 were told that mental phenomena was involved.
	And that's why there was all the LSD experiments and all the experiments done on psychic driving and stuff by the CIA during the 1950s.
	They were trying to figure out how consciousness worked.
	So they've known from day one that consciousness was part of this whole thing.
	And that's, to me, is how it works.
	The presid knows this, but because you have this consciousness aspect where you want to be able to go and talk in Putin's head and influence people telepathically, and because of the technology that you, if you're the good guys, you want to control it.
	You don't want to give it to Al-Qaeda.
	You don't want to give it to China.
	You want to control the hardware.
	And that's what it comes down to, is the hardware and this mental phenomena aspect that they're trying to protect to develop weapons.
	Because that's basically what it comes down to, is if you control this technology, you rule the world.
	And if you have to use it, the other side doesn't have it and you can win the war.
	It's simple as that.
	It's classified material.
	That's why the government doesn't talk about it.
	You are a man who clearly has a great deal of passion and zeal.
	There are a few people that I've interviewed here who can talk in the way that you can and put a narrative across, Grant, which you certainly have done over this last hour.
	This mental capacity, this set of abilities, do you use them?
	And if you do, how?
	No, I haven't.
	I just had the download experience.
	I've had the UFO experience.
	I've never had, I even said, you know, I'd like to have an alien talk in my head.
	And I talked to contactees and said, no, you don't want that.
	I said, yeah, I do.
	And they said, no, we've had this.
	You do not want someone talking in your head.
	I said, just one time, I'd like to have an alien talk in my head or someone talking in my head.
	Well, me too.
	Me too.
	I've had the downloading.
	I've had this download experience, which I talk about like Richard Feynman, who's a Nobel Prize winner, Fred Hoyle, who should have won three Nobel Prize.
	And they talk about this download type thing where ideas come into their head.
	I've had that, but I really have not had anything beyond that.
	So that's why I look at the contactees, because I say you're not going to learn anything from sightings.
	You can count how many green ones are flying around, how many red ones, how many big ones, how many fast ones, slow ones.
	That teaches you nothing.
	It's not until you deal with experiencers and contactees, people who claim to have been inside the ship, claim to have talked to the aliens.
	Those are the most important people in the world.
	They are the people who are playing in the World Cup.
	And that's what I told them.
	I said, you may not know what's going on, but you are the only people who have the answer to what the aliens are doing.
	So all I do now, I don't deal with the presidents anymore.
	I don't deal with intelligence agencies.
	I don't deal with governments anymore.
	All I do is watch contactees and experiencers because these are the people, if they're telling the truth and they are dealing with this phenomenon with the aliens or inside the craft, that's where the answer lies.
	And what is the most compelling thing that you have been told by a contactee?
	By a contactee, I'm not sure.
	I can tell you the most important story I've heard, and that is a story told by George Knapp.
	And that is a story that he has related to Area 51.
	And this is a story of Area 51.
	He broke the original story.
	George Knapp, for those who don't know about him in the UK, George Knapp is an investigative reporter, journalist on a local TV station in that area, but also made a name for himself investigating these phenomena and putting the message out there.
	So he's in the mainstream, but not.
	Yeah.
	And so the story that he tells, the most impressive story I've heard is the fact that he stated that he had the one main witness that came out that broke the story, went worldwide.
	But he said, I also have 24 other people who were telling the same story.
	And the one story he tells is a high-level guy.
	There's three guys.
	EG ⁇ G runs the Area 51 site.
	One of the three top EG ⁇ G guys, he realized that if the story was true, he tracked this guy down.
	He got to know the guy.
	He indirectly, and the guys suddenly opened up to him and started to tell him the story.
	And this was a guy who was, his son was a state senator.
	His other son was an FBI.
	And he said, this guy confirmed the whole story.
	He said, yes, it's true.
	We're back engineering the saucers.
	And George said, what?
	You're back.
	You mean this stuff's actually true?
	This Area 51?
	The guy said, yes, it's true.
	He said, well, weren't you afraid the story was going to get out?
	And this high-level guy, and I know the guy's name, he said, the high-level guy said to him, he said, well, no, we weren't afraid the story was going to get out.
	We were afraid it was going to get out.
	He said, what?
	You mean you actually had a live alien?
	This is a rumored story that Area 51, they had a live alien.
	And this guy who's still alive, who said that he had made a tape for George Knapp, and that when he dies, his FBI agent son has the tape that this tape will be released, basically confirms they had a live alien.
	They had the craft.
	That to me is the most impressive story I've heard because it's basically George Knapp who's won eight awards for investigative journalism, is the top investigative journalist in the state, very sharp guy, has basically worked this story down to this guy who basically says, yes, all the rumor stories are true.
	Basically the telepathy thing is true.
	The live alien is true.
	The back engineering saucers is true.
	And to me, that's the most impressive story I've heard.
	All right.
	Well, you know, that's a pretty good story.
	And who would I be to say that it isn't true?
	And who would I be to say that it is true?
	I just don't know.
	I just keep gathering information.
	Sounds like you do too.
	You're going to a conference in Leeds.
	Tell me about that.
	I'm going to a conference in Leeds.
	I spoke there once before, and I'm going, I did consciousness last time I was there.
	I'm going to do a little bit more on the music.
	I'm going to do a lot of the British rock bands, the inspirations, the number of band people that claimed that they had been abducted, stuff like this, people who had had contacts, downloads.
	So that's what I'm going to be doing at Leeds Consciousness, music downloads to show that this is all sort of interconnected.
	Great, Grant.
	Well, thank you very much for talking with me.
	You pile a lot of information into the hour.
	Very few people do quite as much.
	You know, I'm pretty blown away.
	How do people find out about you if they want to see your material?
	PresidentialUFO.com is my website.
	Grant Cameron, thank you very much for coming on.
	Thank you, Howard.
	Grant Cameron, and I will put a link to his website and his material on my website, www.theunexplained.tv, if you want to see it and use it.
	Thank you very much to Adam Cornwell, my webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, for getting the show out to you, for maintaining the website and doing all sorts of other important work for us.
	He's a very busy guy these days, so very pleased to have him on board.
	And thank you very much to you for your guest suggestions and for spreading the word about the Unexplainer.
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	That means that we can do shows that are just as good, if not better, than they do.
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	With a simple equation.
	You the listener, me the broadcaster, Adam the facilitator.
	Three people in a very tight equation.
	But we need your help for this to continue.
	Please spread the word.
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	And if you can make a donation to the show, please do.
	Great shows upcoming here at The Unexplained.
	By the way, thank you to Sue for sending me some more of my archives, some more of my missing shows from my radio days with The Unexplained.
	Sue, thank you for that.
	Very good of you.
	I'm going to go through the tapes very, very soon, but thank you.
	And until next we meet here on The Unexplained, my name is Howard Hughes.
	I'm in rain-soaked London.
	Till next we meet, stay safe, stay calm, and please stay in touch.
	Take care.

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