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July 4, 2014 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:02:36
Edition 164 - Gordon Strong

British author and researcher Gordon Strong – on the controversial subject of RitualMagic...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world.
On the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Well, back home now.
Last time, of course, we were on location with Uri Geller in the home that he's about to leave at Sonning in Berkshire.
I'm still amazed by the size and scale of that house.
It was designed, if you heard the recording, designed along the lines of the White House in Washington, D.C., and is a truly amazing house that is festooned with tropical and other plants, works of art that Urigel has bought, and then there's his amazing gymnasium, his amazing cinema, and the fabulous accommodation.
You know, it is just for ordinary mortals like me, pretty amazing stuff.
Now, the show was controversial, and I will get into your messages to me on a future edition.
I want to go through emails then.
Can't do it this time for a variety of reasons.
Some of you have emailed me to say, what are you putting Uri Geller on?
Either you don't like him, or you still hold against him the fact that he was a friend of Michael Jackson.
And I understand what you're saying, and I take on board all of this.
And, you know, I can't take sides about Michael Jackson because I don't know.
And the jury is always, as I said on the show, always going to be out on Michael Jackson.
Uri Geller claims that he hypnotized him, asked him the question, did you do these things of which you were accused?
And he said no under hypnosis.
Well, we have Urigella's word for that.
Your view may be different.
I don't know.
I don't know what to think about Michael Jackson.
I like his music.
The rest of it, I just don't know.
And the jury will, I'll say it again, always be out, and there will always be questions to be asked, partly because, as Uri said himself, partly because of Michael Jackson's lifestyle that invited people to speculate and talk about him, I think.
But I don't want to get bogged down in talking about Michael Jackson, because that's a whole other subject, as they say for a whole other time.
Now, this time round on The Unexplained, we're going to talk to a man about ritual magic and many, many other things.
His name is Gordon Strong.
More about him in just a second.
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You know, I like to hear from you.
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Adam, thank you for your hard work.
And Martin, who made the theme for this show, haven't said hello to you recently.
I hope everything's okay with you.
All right, Gordon Strong is a man of many parts.
He writes novels, but he writes a lot of factual books, researching a lot of history and subjects like magic.
He's a bit of a find, really.
I think he's a truly interesting man.
We'll find out how interesting in just a moment.
But Gordon Strong is our guest.
Like I say, please keep your contacts coming, keep the emails coming, www.theunexplained.tv, and thank you very much for your support.
These are very busy times as I try and make a living one way and another and pay my bills.
But I will, I promise, keep The Unexplained going and I will be developing this show.
All right, Gordon Strong in the west of England.
Let's get him on right now to The Unexplained.
Gordon, thank you very much for coming on the show.
My pleasure.
And Gordon, you're in Portis Head near Bristol, which is quite an historic place in itself from what I know.
Well, yes, I suppose it's most famous for the band of the same name.
Yes.
But yeah, it's a nice little place.
I mean, it's on the estuary here, and that's nice.
Wales is within sight, and of course, Somerset is not far away.
And it is an area.
Look, I studied at Cardiff University, which is just across the water from where you are.
And I came to know the area that you're in because I used to take occasional disappearances from classes and go travelling by train in the West Country.
It is an area of great history, but also an area of, I felt, mysticism.
Very much so.
Glastonbury is always cited as the spiritual centre of England, and I think that the South West does have something about it.
It would have been the place where voyagers from Europe would have landed, I think.
And so you've always had this influx of influences which have been spiritual.
I mean, the Irish monks came over here.
And of course, there is the legend of Joseph of Arimathea coming.
Glastonbury, you mentioned, we've had the rock festival there within the last 10 days, two weeks or so.
Of course, that's a big deal.
But many, many spiritual people go to Glastonbury, and some people travel there and stay there.
If you go through the main street in Glastonbury, there are spiritual bookshops, bookshops for people wanting to extend their knowledge, cafes where they appear to meet.
And then, of course, there's the hill there that has a sort of tower on it.
And if you climb that hill, and it's a bit of a climb, but worth it when you get to the top, beautiful view.
But there is definitely a feeling that there is some confluence of some sort of energy there.
And I don't, you know, routinely do these things.
You know, it's not my area of study.
But there's definitely something about that area.
There is.
I mean, the Tor is obviously the landmark.
And because the land is so flat there, the moors, it can be seen for miles and miles around.
The fact that there is the tower on top of it, of course, adds to that.
The interesting thing is that there's vast amounts of water flowing inside the tower and down towards a part called the Chalice Well.
Now, that's interesting.
If you walk on it, which I have, and if you climb it to the tower, you get no sense of that.
But that could perhaps be some indication of the energy running through the place because there's literally running water running through that place.
And some people will tell you, where there is water, there is life, there is energy.
Exactly.
I mean, there's a chap who, I think he used to live in Dasma, I don't think he lives there now, called Nicholas Mann, who wrote a very interesting book solely about this water energy.
There's the red spring and the white spring, the difference being the iron content between the two.
And these move together and flow together.
So there's this constant energy 24 hours a day.
And obviously you can go and get the water, which I do periodically myself.
And do you feel the better for it?
Well, interestingly, it's the only water I drink.
I mean, I don't actually drink the water out of the tap.
So I suppose I'm just used to it, but it does have a certain something about it.
So West of England, an area of mysticism and a place where if you walk into a cafe in Glastonbury, or presumably where you are too, I would think, and you talk about magic and subjects of this kind, there will be somebody there who will understand what you're on about.
If you do that in London, near where I am, I couldn't guarantee that for you.
Well, I think actually Glastonbury is a bit of an oasis.
There are one or two other places in the West Country.
Totteness is another centre.
But I think you have to remember that in Bristol, for instance, there's never been any real spiritual centre.
There are isolated little groups all over the place.
I mean, there's a Buddhist centre, for instance.
But I think the thing about Glastonbury is that it attracts the pilgrim.
And, you know, these are genuine seekers.
There's no doubt about that.
And one imagines that the majority find whatever it is they're looking for.
And if you look at the shops there, you know, if you're looking for a place to buy a robe or a handbook on practical magic, you can find them.
Absolutely.
Yes, it's sort of off-the-peg pagan.
Now, your latest book is about magic.
I want to also talk about your prolific back catalogue of other books because you've covered a vast smorgasbord of subjects.
But let's talk about this new book to do with magic, because that was the premise that we organized this conversation on.
Absolutely.
Now, many years ago in London, I met somebody who I later came to realize and understand is pretty famous in these circles.
Her name is Marion Greene.
I hope she's still with us.
Yes, I know Marion very well.
Well, please give her my regards.
It's a very long time I was a very, very young boy, just learning how to use a microphone when we first spoke, so I think I probably could have done a better job.
But she was fascinating, and she sent me away with some literature.
And I really went into it as a kind of project.
It was a student documentary that I was doing.
Oh, yeah.
And she was kind enough to, and I hoped in the way that you do that the BBC might broadcast it, which of course they never actually got round to.
But we produced the thing and we had a fascinating conversation.
She sent me away with literature that I spent the next couple of years going through.
And I started to think, hey, there might be something in this.
And we went through all of the usual subject areas that you go through, starting with, of course, is this not madness and is this not dangerous?
And she had some pretty cogent answers to that.
So I'm just wondering, me having spoken to her, I'm interested in the kind of answers you will give me to these questions.
For example, the average layman, the person who's maybe listening to this, who's more interested in UFOs and scanning the skies, and we do programs about that or conspiracy theories, that person may feel that magic is either weird or dangerous or any combination of the two.
So I think we need to explain whether those things are so and then get into the subject of what exactly is magic.
Yes.
Well, I think actually you're quite right.
It is weird and it is dangerous in the sense that it's a power and it's, I suppose you could define it as the power of the universe that has been transmitted to the individual.
Now, always with magic is a question of motive.
Why do you want to be involved with it and what do you intend to do with it?
And I think that this is the question that always causes the confusion because the concept of power is usually the idea of obtaining things or having domination over somebody or something.
And that is not the essence of magic, I would say.
Well, you say it's not the essence of magic, but from what you've also said, you could, if you were so inclined, use magic to those ends.
Of course, and people have done so.
It's basically the idea that the ego has got in the way somewhere.
And so magic is only a medium.
And you can use it for whatever ends you wish.
We have free will as humans, and so we can do what we want with it.
But I think questions come in immediately as to whether you are tapping into the real magic or are you tapping in to some, how can I put this, some earthly power that may well end up using you rather than you using it.
So how is the seeker after fact and truth and possibly the person who wants to use this or learn how to use it, how are they to know the difference?
I wouldn't know.
No, well, I think, I mean, one of the big problems is that because we live in the age of the internet there's huge amounts of information out there and to discriminate between what is spurious and what is helpful is quite a task I think personally and I've written about this recently is that I would go for
for the old brigade.
Those are the writers such as Dion Fortune or Eliphas Levy or people like that who were the pioneers of magic, if you like, in the 19th and 20th century, whereas the modern approach tends to be a bit eclectic.
I think that's the best way I can put it.
I hope that's helpful.
And what about Alistair Crowley?
What about Alistair Crowley?
I'm often asked about him and my view on him was he certainly knew his magic and he was an extremely knowledgeable man.
Well, Alistair Crowley, the Alistair, as far as I can recall, not spelt in the conventional ways of spelling Alistair, was a practitioner of these things, but is often feared and certainly celebrated, and I don't mean that in the sort of happy party way, but as a practitioner of the dark art, whether that was correct or not, I don't know.
Maybe you can fill me in.
Well, I think it's very easy to say that he was a satanist or he was this, that and the other, but I think the problem with Alistair Crowley was being Alistair Crowley.
I mean, in the sense that he was a very, I'm rather pompous man, I think, and he was very willful and indulgent.
And I think that he was always skating on thin ice.
To his credit, he had no fear.
Therefore, he would involve himself in magical practices, which the average practitioner would probably not wish to go anywhere near it.
But I think the trouble is with him, it's people get confused between the lifestyle and the man, and they tend to follow the lifestyle more than the man, which I think is dangerous.
Well, tell me a little about the man.
I mean, the lifestyle, from what I hear, was flamboyant.
I mean, this man has his acolytes and followers to this day.
Oh, very much so.
Very much so.
I mean, there are people who worship him.
And I mean, literally, and consider that every word he wrote has some significance and some power.
That's not, you know, that's, that's a trap, because he wrote far too much.
And he was also, I mean, he was a heroin addict most of his life.
And people who get involved with drugs tend to waffle.
I mean, whether it's drink, or it's heroin, or anything else.
And there is also the theory, and I've heard it from a lot of people who are in a lot of different disciplines, that if you use drink, or you use drugs, and then you attempt to seek after truth, or contact spirits, or use magic, or do whatever, you open a portal that is normally closed, or semi-closed, when you're sober and fully conscious.
But when you're in a compromised state like that, you never know what you're allowing in.
Well, I think that's absolutely true.
And I mean, you know, I'm part of the 60s generation, and LSD was, you know, part of all that.
And...
You don't have to answer.
Did you do drugs?
No.
No, I don't.
But did you back in the 60s, when it seemed, you know, I wasn't around, but it seems everybody did.
Yes, somebody would say to you, if you take this, you'll see God.
And so you would immediately say, well, can I have two, please?
And so I can see two gods.
And it, it was an instant solution, I suppose, to enlightenment.
I mean, those, those who were wise, took it once or twice, and said, right, well, that's that.
Now, if I want to investigate other worlds, or other planes, or other dimensions, then I can do it in a different way.
Well, we hear so many stories of people dabbling in drugs, and using drugs, and even ones that were once thought to be on the low end of the scale, seem to have appalling effects.
So, you know, my personal thought on that is, just don't go there, because you can find your enlightenment in other ways, is my thought.
But there are still people, aren't there, who will go to South America, where they can quite legally try ayahuasca, for example, which is supposed to open portals and doors.
And I just read reports of these things.
And it makes me, I'm sorry, if you're listening to this, and you think that it's okay, it makes me, as somebody who studies these things, but very much as a layman, very worried.
Well, no, I take your point of view.
I mean, I side with you there.
I mean, I've, people have approached me and said, said, Oh, well, let's go to South America and take ayahuasca.
And it's a ridiculous idea, really.
I mean, partly that I think it's two cultures meeting.
I mean, I don't know enough about that.
I mean, I've obviously read the books of Carlos Castaneda, who, and in the first couple of volumes, he's dealing with peyote.
And obviously, things happen to the main character in the books, which wouldn't have happened unless he'd taken the peyote.
But the subsequent books immediately say, well, this is really irrelevant.
And I'm going to show you something else, which is much more powerful.
Which is the core subject we're discussing today.
But you know, there are people who think that they can get an easy, I suppose the people who do that, you know, Gordon, probably think that they're getting a fast ticket, a fast pass to enlightenment.
That's probably what motivates them.
Yes, I'm sure you're right.
I'm sure that was the thing in the 60s.
I mean, because, you know, it was very much a time when things did seem to be instant.
And the problem with hallucinogenic drugs, and I have talked about this in the books, is that everything is subjective.
you know, all you're doing is it really is is releasing your own psychoses.
And fair enough, I'm sure it's very cathartic, but I don't believe it's of any value.
And I think what life teaches you, if you've lived a little bit of it, and you've seen a few things and been a few places, is that anything appears that appears to give you fast and easy gratification or solutions, always has a price tag.
Yes, I hardly agree.
And I, and one of the, I mean, returning to magic and how one can be involved in it, on a, on a level which is valuable, is study.
And study and genuine engagement, not thinking that it's to do with extraordinary phenomena, or, or, how can I put it, sort of experiences that are sensual.
It's, it's not about that.
It's about something much deeper.
Well, I, when I spoke all those decades ago to Marion Green, um, and she gave me that literature to take away, I went there, I have to say, look, I was a very young guy and I was just learning about life.
And I went there having seen programs on TV about magicians who could fly and make people travel through time and all sorts of stuff.
So I thought, well, this is the kind of stuff she's involved in.
Very simplistic.
When I spoke to her, and I wonder what your take on this is, what she was talking to me about was something that was really elemental about the earth and the, the trees and the sky and everything else.
It's nothing to do with summoning up something from somewhere as if it's some kind of, um, national grid power supply on tap, but really literally takes us right back to the elements of life.
Yes.
Yes, that's right.
I mean, I think that's a certainly reasonable summary of, of Marion's, uh, approach.
I mean, basically Marion is extremely, um, learned on, on witchcraft and witchcraft originally was the old country law.
It was the use of plants.
It was the use of the seasons and being in harmony with nature.
So, I mean, that is, you know, streets away from ideas of, even of, of ceremonial magic.
So what, what is the difference between witchcraft and what you're talking about ritual magic?
I thought they were one and the same thing.
Well, they are, they are, but I mean, the only reason I mentioned that is because there's there's another chap called Ronald Hutton, um, who's written about witchcraft and he and Marion are the, are the experts in that field.
If people come to me and say, tell me about witchcraft, I put them in that direction because it's not my area of study.
I mean, I certainly am aware of, of that female energy and using the moon, um, obviously, but, um, I don't consider myself to be okay enough with it.
Okay.
So let's define ritual magic.
Is it performing some kind of, we've all, you know, Shakespeare full of eye of newt and, uh, you know, a leg of frog.
Is that what we're talking about?
Well, I think that the Shakespearean thing would have been witches and witchcraft.
Um, no, um, no ceremonial magic is based on the theory of correspondences.
The idea that, um, as above, so below.
So you set up a situation which is as close to the vibration that you wish to produce, um, by colors and symbols and, um, words, that's anything to do with the area that you're, you're dealing with.
Say you want to heal somebody or something, uh, then you are using the, um, artifacts, the, the signs that go with that area of things.
And then you do your ritual and introduce yourself and ask for what it is that you desire.
Now there are people who achieve amazing results with what they would call positive thinking.
Yeah.
There was a book called the cosmic ordering service.
Sadly, Baird Bell Moore who wrote that died, which was a great shock to discover.
Um, but the cosmic ordering service was all about programming for the things that you want.
And if they were, you know, the right thing for you, they would be brought to you in due course.
What I'm coming to here is that I wonder how you feel about this, that life perhaps, and the universe and everything has a state of balance to it.
And doing these things that we're talking about now is about trying to regain the state of balance.
There's a right state for all things, but we're not always in that right state.
So we have to use a technique or think positively or do whatever we do to bring things back to where they really ought to be.
Dr. Michael Baird: Yes, I think, I think that's, that's perfectly valid.
The only thing I think with that cosmic ordering service is that it's a little bit glib.
Um, and it, it also has, you know, the, the carrot at the end of it.
And I, I think the difference that I would point out is that the magician isn't necessarily doing something for gain.
Um, I mean, he, he may wish to achieve things or she may wish to achieve an end, but it isn't necessarily something where there's a reward apart from achieving what it is that you want, you want to happen.
Dr. Michael Baird: Hmm.
Isn't that a reward in itself?
Dr. Michael Baird: Well, I think it is.
Yes, I do.
Most certainly.
But I mean, if people say to me, why do you do magic?
And I'm, i say to bring light into the world of course there are people who darkly i'm sorry i interrupted there just going off on another train of thought here as i tend to do um there are people who say you look at all, it's maybe an uninformed view, you look at all the successful people, the big stars and the captains of business and industry.
They're all secretly using magic techniques on the quiet.
How do you think they're so successful?
Do you buy that thought?
Well, I think they, I mean, I don't know.
I mean, performers do.
I mean, most certainly.
And I mean, magic is acting because you have to be absolutely convinced about what you're doing.
And in the same way, if you're, I'm sure Mick Jagger is absolutely convinced about what he's doing, and that's why he's such a star.
So in a way, being totally committed and totally positive about your art, if you're a performer or artist, is the same without the rituals as doing something in magic.
That's true, but I think there are actually rituals.
I think you would find that the performer would have certain forms and certain ways of doing things that he knows would achieve what it is he wishes to, you know, would give him success.
I mean, it wouldn't happen every time because it would be too easy.
And sometimes he'd have to work or change his approach.
Now, why would it not happen every time?
Is that because the universe doesn't want you to feel omnipotent?
Yes, hubris.
I mean, the idea that you can't, you know, you can be a god, but you cannot be a god full-time.
Well, ritual is an interesting thing.
Superstition, I think, maybe I succumb to, but certainly there will be times in my life where, I was doing some radio work in Liverpool just a few years ago, and there was a particular watch that I tended to wear when I did that work.
And I found that whenever I wore the watch, the shows would go better.
And I became really upset for a while, obsessive about it.
It became a talisman for me.
Is this the same sort of thing we're talking about?
The danger, of course, would be if you lost the watch.
Yes.
Yes, I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, you do rely on talismans or I don't know.
It's usually approaches, I think.
I mean, obviously, times like the full moon are important to me and the new moon.
And those are the times that I would concentrate on doing what it is that I wish to do.
I mean, I'd have him full fenned, but I don't think I would ever miss a full moon, if you see what I mean.
Yeah, my mother used to have a theory about my father, and it was proved.
We used to look at the tables of the moon in the paper.
We didn't tell him this.
But he was always a bit irrational around the time of the full moon.
I don't think he was alone.
No, I think this has been proved.
I mean, people who have had experience in schools will tell you this, that certain people act, as you say, erratically at certain times.
I mean, I think the moon exerts an enormous influence because it's the unconscious.
And I think it's the unconscious that determines what we do in the conscious world.
And even on a mechanical level, the moon affects the tides.
We are, I've forgotten what the proportion of water in the body, but it's very, very high.
We're a tide in ourselves.
Yes, I agree.
I agree.
And I think that if you try and restrict your emotions or deny them, then they will appear in a different guise.
I mean, better to accept that there are rhythms and try and work with them.
You said that the time of the full moon is very important for you.
You wouldn't miss one.
We can't let that point go.
What exactly do you do at that time?
Well, that's the time I do a ritual.
I mean, I do a minor ritual at the new moon, but I do my major ritual at the full moon.
And to what end do you do that?
What are you getting out of that?
What am I getting out of that?
Well, it depends.
Generally, how shall I say?
They are the same.
I mean, in the sense that obviously the moon is in a different astrological sign, each full moon is.
So you take that into account that the nature of that moon will accentuate what you are capable of doing.
So I don't know what star sign you are.
If you believe in all of that, presumably you do if you're talking about this.
Do you believe that you're more potent and powerful at the time of the full moon in your own birth sign?
Oh, yes.
But I mean, if we go into astrology, of course, you have a moon sign as well.
So, I mean, that can have an effect as well.
But I think, no, you're absolutely right.
I mean, it's obviously to do with the seasons.
I mean, I was born in the spring.
So the opposite end of that is the autumn.
So presumably I would be less powerful in the autumn than I am in the spring.
That's a strange thing throughout my entire life, and I've never quite known why this is.
And I always used to think, well, maybe you're sort of more alert and awake at these times and less alert and awake.
But I'm a summer child.
Right.
And I tend to do better in the summer and tend to have the low point for me about a month before Christmas and then things improve beyond that.
But it's something that's been, it's just been a fact throughout my life.
And I've learned to live with it, really.
Yeah, so I mean, I think it also makes a difference what time of day you were born, time of day or night you were born.
I mean, I was born early, I mean, at 7 o'clock.
Me too.
Me too.
I was, I think, 7.15, 7.30.
Right.
And I'm somebody who gets up early in the morning and fires straight into whatever.
Well, you're the same as me then.
I amaze people at my ability to get up.
And I've done it for too many years now, get up wherever I happen to be, get out of bed and go on the radio early in the morning.
I've always, from the moment I started in radio in Liverpool, my first news editor said, We like your voice, we're going to put you on breakfast.
And I thought, oh my god, that's early in the morning.
And I've stayed there ever since, and that's decades.
But other people say, How the hell do you work in the morning like that?
I have no idea.
Yeah, it is interesting.
I mean, I generally see the dawn most days, and I feel, you know, particularly at one with it.
I mean, and I go to bed early, you know, because I suppose, well, I'm tired, and, you know, that's the kind of cycle that I have.
I would prefer on this recording not to go into specific rituals and how you do them, not that you would want to do that anyway.
But I am interested in their effect because my listeners will be saying, okay, get him to tell you about some of those rituals and what they can do.
So talk to me about that.
Well, I mean, basically, I mean, you know, I from time to time get requests from people.
Sounds like I'm some sort of cosmic DJ, but usually those are to heal somebody or to help somebody who's dying have a peaceful death.
And those are the two things that I'm generally asked to do, which I don't refuse to do.
And do you, I hope you do because we have to do this when we were on radio.
We definitely have to say this, and I stick to those things here.
But of course, you do say to these people, you must be fully connected with your medical practitioner as well.
I mean, yeah, I mean, yes, I mean, obviously.
I mean, we live in a material universe and you can't ignore it.
I mean, I think that you have to be sensible and common sense must determine what you do and what you don't do.
It's all very well to assume that you are connected with things that are invisible or whatever, but I think you have to put things in context.
Well, I mean, if I have a cold or the flu, I will take an analgesic.
Exactly.
And I mean, if it wasn't for conventional medicine, I wouldn't be here now because, I mean, I've had, you know, a couple of operations in my life.
And I'm grateful to the medical profession because they know what they're doing, I think.
Well, I'm glad we cleared that point up.
So always, you know, whatever you're thinking of doing, stay with your doctor.
Absolutely.
Explain that.
I mean, because, I mean, you'd be foolish not to.
I mean, you know, if you have something wrong with your electricity in your house, you get an electrician in.
You don't try and fix it yourself.
Why did you start doing this?
Magic?
Yeah.
Almost by accident, as often with these things.
When I was a student, I did an English degree, and one of the first lectures we had was on the wasteland, T.S. Eliot's The Wasteland, which mentions the tarot.
And I was quite fascinated by this, and this was 1966, and I was determined to get a tarot pack.
And it wasn't easy to get one in those days.
And I did, and I could make absolutely no sense of it at all, which is quite ironic now because I've written books on it.
But from there, I got interested in astrology.
And at the same time, I actually met real magicians.
And this would be about 1970, I suppose.
And that quite opened my eyes.
It's interesting, though, that was an era.
I mean, I was a boy then, going to school, but I used to watch the children's television.
And I think we were much more open to those things in the 70s.
Certainly the sort of mid, maybe perhaps just early 70s, mid-70s, there was a TV series I remember called Ace of Wands on ITV here in the UK.
And I don't think a series like that would necessarily run today.
Probably not.
I can't actually remember that.
I probably wasn't watching television.
I mean, look, I was, what, nine or ten, and it seemed to be quite remarkable-amazing stuff to me.
I mean, okay, these days we have Harry Potter.
What do you think about Harry Potter?
I don't think I can answer that.
That's okay.
Well, you can take the fifth on Harry Potter, but I think we can read between the lines.
But if there are people who maybe go and see a Harry Potter movie, let's not talk about Harry Potter specifically, but they go and see a movie like that, and they come out of it thinking, my God, I wish I could do that.
And then they start reading up about the stuff that you do.
Is that a right frame to come from to do this?
Well, I suppose the equivalent before would have been Dennis Wheatley.
The Wheatley books, interestingly enough, used to have a warning printed on them.
Don't dabble with this sort of thing.
And I must admit, I have had people approach me and say, I want you to teach me about magic.
And I'm always extremely wary of that because I want to know exactly why they want to do it.
And in the old schools of magic, they used to ask a question, which was, why do ye seek?
And the answer was, I seek in order to serve, meaning that you weren't doing it for the wrong reasons.
And you did tarot, you ended up doing this.
Did it come easily to you?
What, doing magic?
Yeah.
No, it didn't.
Did you make mistakes?
And if you did, what were they?
I think it's more a question of, I mean, I have, I must say, I've written Two books about magic, one that's about to be published at the end of the year.
And the first one is called The Way of Magic, which was basically describing all the things we're talking about, the practical aspects of it.
But I wrote a second book, which is called The Magical Character, and that is about how you develop as a magician and also what you should take into consideration when you are being a practitioner.
And I'm sorry, I've forgotten your question now.
Well, it was all about getting involved in this and how you got involved in this.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, oh, yes, and mistakes I might have made.
And mistakes that you might have made.
I'm thinking about when we learn to ride a bike, for example, we fall off a couple of times.
Sure, sure.
I mean, I think really it's with all these things, you can kid yourself that you are progressing.
I mean, I'm sure it's the same with playing an instrument.
I mean, I'm a guitarist, and I used to be terribly, terribly pleased with myself when I learned something new.
But of course, what you mustn't do is just rest on your laurels, and you have to go further.
And going further in magic involves not trying too hard.
It's allowing things to come in and discriminating what is real and what is not.
Now, I know that's a tricky concept, particularly with magic, but there is a sense that this is happening and this is beyond me, but I know that it is happening, if that makes sense.
But not dwelling on it too much.
Well, no, exactly.
I mean, there is a marvelous expression, which is a sort of 19th century expression, which is to be fairy addled.
Really?
Fairy addled.
Fairy addled, which means that you're so, you know, tripped out with all this stuff that you can't operate properly.
And, you know, that's, and I'm afraid to say that there's quite a lot of new age people who are like that.
You know, every second is to do with, I don't know, channeling or having some message or something like that.
And I don't believe that life is like that.
I mean, I think that quite a lot of life is very mundane.
That doesn't mean to say that it isn't magical, but you have to try and separate what is significant and what is not.
Assuming, and for some people it'll be a big step for them to assume that magic is something that is real and exists and works.
But making those assumptions just for a moment, because we're talking to you and we're talking about how you started and began to succeed in this, when did you first know that you had succeeded?
What was the first thing that you did that produced a result that made you pleased?
Well, I can't think of anything specific.
I think it's more a feeling because my great mentor was somebody called Dion Fortune.
And Dionne Fortune, I mean, she died in 1946, but she is the person who writes best about magic because it's clear and it's concise and it's matter of fact.
And she describes a state that is the best equivalent I know of magic when she talks about a thickening of the air.
And that is particularly pertinent.
And anybody who is a genuine magician out there will know exactly this feeling where you know that it's a bit like, I'll tell you what it's a bit like, when you're a child, you know, you can lean against the wind.
It's that powerful.
And I think it's having the sensation that there is power all around you.
Now, that's interesting you say that.
And I'm sorry to interrupt again.
You must forgive me for that.
I don't know.
It's just my enthusiasm, but I need to curb it.
I don't know, Carrie Orn.
You know, I can remember one situation that I was in with a group of people, and I was very uneasy about it.
Right.
where they were talking about this kind of stuff, and I was very, very new to it all.
It was a group of people that I'd got to know through the recordings that I was doing and that sort of stuff.
And I was taken to a place where there was a group of people that were talking about these things, and the atmosphere changed.
Right.
And in retrospect, I thought, you know, have they given me something to drink that's made me a bit relaxed?
Well, perhaps not.
But something happened.
There was almost like you could cut the air.
It changed.
It was very, very odd.
I still don't know what it was.
I think it was the effect of a bunch of people with a particular intention.
Thankfully, I left there and I don't know what would have happened, but I just got a tremendous feeling that something is, if I stick around here, something and I don't know what is going to happen.
Yes.
Well, I mean, I think, yes, you very much hit on something there, which is things that are beyond reason.
I mean, why did you leave?
Because your instinct or your intuition told you that you shouldn't be there.
Yeah, well, the rational side of me said, whatever this is, I don't like it.
If it's something natural and something magical and whatever, I'm not ready for it.
And if it's something else, then I need to be away from here, but I still, I will never know, really.
Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's, again, I think it's a balance.
I mean, the great difficulty when actually describing or writing about magic is what terms you use, because you can get very tangled up with trying to find analogies.
And nothing is as powerful as The experience.
And I think if I can mention something else, you see, ancient magic had a purpose.
We want the rain to fall, or we want animals to hunt, whatever.
And the magician, the whatever he would be called, the shaman or whatever, that was his purpose to make things happen.
And I don't think that those people would have thought that there was anything strange about magic.
The secular and the spiritual were all one thing because there wasn't the diversions or the analysis that we have now.
Do you see what I mean?
I do.
I do.
I absolutely do.
That we put constructs on things because we're cleverer these days, or we think we are.
Yes, exactly.
And I mean, we can do amazing things with technology.
And I wouldn't deny that that is magical.
I mean, in the sense that, you know, incredible things can be achieved with technology.
But I think the problem with that is what do you do with it?
It's a bit like when they discovered atomic energy.
I mean, this was going to be the great savior, you know, of providing electricity for everybody.
But it also, you know, led to the atomic bomb.
Well, that is why, when you talk about magic, it makes an awful lot of people, including at times myself, a little jumpy and uneasy.
Which is why I don't discuss it.
I mean, obviously I'm discussing it now.
And in the books.
But, you know, I don't go around with a sort of Merlin hat on saying I'm a magician.
I don't.
I keep it to myself.
Partly because I don't wish to cause offense or anxiety and partly because it's my, I don't know, it's my inner life, I suppose.
I worry about people thinking this is a good idea and dabbling in it.
I agree.
It makes me very concerned.
Yes, I totally and utterly agree.
I mean, it's a bit like giving somebody dynamite and matches, you know, or them finding the matches somewhere else.
You know, it's dangerous stuff if it's used incorrectly or it's used casually.
So Gordon, is it better not to write books about this then, just in case they get into the wrong hands?
Well, I don't know about that.
I mean, you know, what about Mein Kampf?
I mean, you know, in some ways, that's quite a dangerous book.
It's an extremely badly written book.
But, I mean, the sentiments within it obviously spurred people to do horrendous things.
Well, that's exactly what I'm saying about magic.
If you go writing books about magic and the wrong people get hold of them and misinterpret them, who knows what might happen?
Well, I agree, but I stress, you know, in the one published book that I've done about magic and the one that's about to be published, I stress, you know, that you have to be virtuous if you're going to be at all involved with these things and not think that this is something a bit like a, I don't know, heavy metal concert or something.
Now, there are people who say, if you get involved with this stuff and you do it with bad intention, anything that you may wish upon someone, say you were, and we haven't talked about this yet, but we have to.
Say you wanted to do somebody harm.
Right, curses.
And the idea being that if you try anything like that, if you try and pull a stunt of that kind, all that bad stuff is going to come straight back like a mirror to you.
Well, that's the tradition.
It's supposed to, well, if you talk about witchcraft, I mean, it's supposed to come back thrice.
You know, I mean, I certainly wouldn't do it.
I mean.
What about those people who do, though, in certain parts of the world?
If we think about places like Haiti, for example, where this kind of stuff has been done.
Absolutely.
No, and you're absolutely right.
I mean, there's that whole voodoo tradition and also there's the South American tradition.
And, you know, I do not dispute that there are people who can look at somebody and 24 hours later they're dead.
Also, I'm sure that those people have the power or similar people have the power to cure.
Again, it's down to what you do with it.
I suppose this brings me back then to the point that we were sort of in a roundabout way.
I was sort of in a roundabout way trying to make, that because of the dangers of this, perhaps it's better to do what they did in the past, and that is keep this knowledge, if it is knowledge, under wraps and limit it to certain people.
That is a very valid point.
And I think that that was always how it was.
I mean, as I told you, when I first met people who were involved in this in 1970, you wouldn't have known anything about them in the sense that they were very secretive, and they certainly didn't talk about it to anybody casually.
But then, of course, you didn't have the access to information that you do now.
I think the thing that worries me as well about this, fascinated though I may be, is the worry about obsession.
Unless you're a completely grounded character, like you talked about those people who can't stop speaking, they can't turn it off.
You know, I once knew somebody who I interviewed, and I'd rather not go into detail about who it was and what it was.
It's a long time ago now.
But this guy was into some sort of natural magic, and I interviewed him, and he was a very interesting person.
I don't think he was very far from where you live.
And life being life, four years or so later, I turned on the radio, and I just happened to hear the news bulletin where his death, I think by suicide, was announced.
And he'd clearly become just too obsessional about all of these things.
That's one of my concerns.
Well, no, you're absolutely right.
And I mean, that is something that, you know, I stress whenever, you know, I mean, I have once or twice given public lectures about magic, but I don't particularly like doing it.
More, it's the written word for me.
But again, it's, you know, the idea that you can live a perfectly normal, quotes, life and still be involved in this.
But you should, well, my advice would be that the ordinary life, if you like, going to the supermarket or whatever it is, is just as valuable.
It's not so glamorous, but it's just as significant.
Do you think the way to look at it is perhaps that if you're doing this and you're doing this sincerely and you're doing this with grounding, that it shouldn't be about trying to do down the people who you think have made your life tough, but it should be about programming for the best outcomes for yourself.
Well, I would think so.
I mean, you know, you must never lose sight of the fact that it is the universal energy.
That's what you're using.
You're using the power of creation, if you like.
And if you push a balloon in, then it's going to come out.
That's a bad example.
But if you push something flexible in, it'll bulge out of the other side.
So if you tap into this universal energy, are you taking away from something else somewhere else?
I'd never thought of it like that.
If I drain a battery in my car, I'm going to have to charge it again.
Similarly, if you take away from universal energy, there must be a debt to pay somewhere.
I don't know.
Isn't universal energy infinite?
Okay, no, well, I'm just...
Or it's also...
I mean, I think that, you know, the power that causes things to grow, for instance, I mean, you can't fight that.
I mean, you can't, or let's say it takes something like water.
I mean, water is never destroyed, is it?
I mean, the glass of water that you might drink has been around for thousands and thousands of years.
I mean, a pharaoh might have drank it.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, no, if you drink it, it's going to reappear in one form.
That's exactly what energy does, because everything is in flux.
Everything is changing all the time.
That's a great example with water.
If you heat it up, it condenses and turns to ice or does whatever it does.
You've written, among your many books, about Merlin.
And the book was called Merlin, Master of Magic.
To most people listening to this, I think they regard Merlin like they regard Harry Potter.
I think the better analogy is Gandalf, actually.
But yeah, Merlin, it was interesting.
I mean, I will briefly tell you about that.
That was for an American publisher, and that's my most successful book in terms of sales.
They wanted me to write about something else, but I insisted that I wrote about it.
I bet they're glad now.
And that was fascinating because the premise was a biography of Merlin.
Well, you couldn't sort of go out and interview him.
But you had to compose this character.
And it's very interesting because he's always associated with King Arthur.
Now, there was a historical Arthur.
There was an actual Arthur.
But the myth of Arthur is just as powerful as the history.
And the same way with Merlin, I suspect there were lots of Merlins in the sense that that was a name that was given to somebody who had extraordinary powers.
Well, I do know of some new agey, well, it may be unfair to call them New Agey-type people, but people who perhaps, it could be argued by those who might argue it, seek after these things a little too obsessively, who call upon the power of Merlin.
And I'm often very skeptical about that.
Well, I mean, Merlin represents, well, for a start, he represents ancient magic, natural magic, and male magic.
I mean, one must never forget that his powers were taken away, you know, by the young girl at the end of his life.
And that's a symbolic gesture there, because it's him handing over the male premise, the male prerogative to the female, or making it equal, shall we say,
and illustrating that power isn't just will, where, you know, he's always, you know, whenever I picture him, he's standing on a mountaintop and lightning is flashing around his staff and that kind of stuff.
And he obviously had this affinity with natural things.
But it's not enough, if you see what I mean.
You also write in one of your other books, one of many other books about the Kabbalah.
Now, there was an era, I was on music radio in London, where I reported this, where an awful lot of celebrities, including whether she did or didn't, Madonna, who were using Kabbalah and, you know, supposedly feeling the benefit.
What is Kabbalah and how does it work?
How long have you got?
Sadly, only a few minutes now.
I think that Kabbalah episode has not got a lot to do with the real Kabbalah, if you like.
I mean, the Kabbalah is part of the Jewish tradition, and it is a right, if I can try and summarize it quickly.
It's an attempt to illustrate the nature of God In ten parts, I suppose.
That's the best way to put it, and how those are integrated.
Okay, well, all this stuff about Kabbalah that was to do with celebs seems to have gone away in the media until it's rediscovered.
The last thing I want to ask you about is all I know about this is a book title, but I have to ask you because it's such a great book title, The Sacred Stone Circles of Stanton Drew.
It almost sounds like that song from the 60s, The Days of Pearlie Spencer, whatever it was, The Sacred Stone Circles of Stanton Drew.
What's that about?
Well, Stanton Drew, we are very lucky.
We have the second largest site of Stone Circles in England, about 25 minutes away from where I live.
And it's not very well known, but Avery is the largest site, and Stanton Drew is the next one.
And everybody, my American listeners, and most of my English listeners, I think, would just think, oh, Stonehenge, that's it.
Stonehenge, exactly.
And it's an interesting thing because my first book that I ever published, there was another book on Stanton Drew.
Half the people came up to me and said, oh, it's wonderful that you've given such publicity to Stanton Drew because it deserves it.
And the other half came up to me and said, oh, you've blown it because you've let the secret out.
And it is an amazing place because nothing's been done to it.
I mean, it just sits there.
But I would recommend anybody go there.
It's wonderful.
Do you think it's a place of power?
Oh, very much so.
Very much so.
Gordon, I'm delighted to have spoken to you.
You are a guest that I didn't know anything about until I did a bit of reading about you.
And I wasn't sure how this was going to go.
And again, a guest has completely surprised me.
And I've thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
We could do three more just like this.
And I hope you come on again.
You'd be delighted to.
You know, you're a gift of a guest.
And thank you very, very much.
If people want to know more about you and your writings and your work, where do they go?
Go to my website, which is GordonStrong.co.uk.
It's GordonStrong.co.uk, or I'll put a link to Gordon's website on my website, which is www.theunexplained.tv.
What's the next thing you're going to be working on?
The next thing I'm working on.
Well, the next book that comes out is the book on the Golden Dawn.
That comes out at the end of this month, officially.
And then another one called The Magical Character should be coming out at the end of the year.
It's published by Caribbean Press.
I also write novels, and I am doing this as well.
How much of your day do you spend writing?
Five days, very rarely.
A goodly part.
Probably half the day or more, I'm sure.
Well, you sound like a fascinating man, and I'm really pleased I spoke with you, and thank you very much for coming on this show.
My pleasure.
Gordon Strong, what did you think about him?
Let me know.
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My name is Howard Hughes.
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