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May 14, 2014 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:03:18
Edition 157 - A Deadly Haunting

Deborah Moffitt and the spine-chilling story of terrifying events that gripped a family inCalifornia...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes, and this is The Unexplained.
Thank you very much for the good feedback to the last two shows.
Hugh Lewis, Dr. Hugh Lewis of Southampton University, talking about space junk.
And what I don't think I made too clear on that edition of the show was that Hugh Lewis was indeed on the documentary that follows the movie Gravity on the DVD version and the Blu-ray version.
So you will actually see him and hear about his work on that.
He was also an advisor to the movie, so an important man, and we will have him back.
Richard C. Hoagland continues to be controversial.
Your emails about him coming in.
Now, on the last edition of the show, I did, as you know, a lot of shout-outs to people in Kenya, Australia, New Zealand, all over the United Kingdom, and right across North America, Canada, and the USA to this show.
Lot of emails coming in now.
Thank you for your response.
So this time, I only want to mention two people.
One of them is Glenn in Ireland, who wants me to mention Dublin.
Very pleased to do that, Glenn.
I don't know if I mentioned this before, but back in the 80s, at the very beginning of my radio career, I was on a radio station there that was very famous called Radio Nova.
It was probably the biggest pirate radio station in Europe at the time.
And it was run like an American music radio station, and I loved it.
It was a great radio station that because it was on land and illegal, was eventually closed down.
But what a ride that was.
And we had a guy there called Tony Allen, who worked on that radio station.
If you're in Ireland, you'll know who Tony is.
He had the greatest voice, sadly no longer with us.
But he used to say on air, Radio Nova, playing all over Dublin.
Now, he did it with a much better voice than me, and he is much missed.
Also, Gary emailed, he's serving with the British Armed Forces in Germany, listens to me.
Hope you're also listening to BFBS, Gary.
But thank you very much for listening to The Unexplained, and you wanted more shows like the one I am about to do.
More about that in a second, Gary.
If you want to get in touch with me, go to the website, triple w.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv.
The website designed and created and maintained by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
And thank you for the nice comments about Adam that are still coming in.
He's going to love that.
If you want to send me a donation to the show, which would be very vitally received, or a message, you can do it through the website.
Remember, we are small media, not big media, and that means we're more responsive.
We talk about stuff they won't.
And I think we are more connected to our audience these days than they ever will be.
But that's for you to decide.
But more and more people are moving across and listening to podcasts and discovering the alternative media, which we are.
And that's good news.
Because a lot of the mainstream media, not all of it, there are many good people and many great organizations, but quite a bit of the mainstream media is not working in your interest.
And I can tell you that because I've been on the inside.
All right, this time round, we're going to be talking about a book.
It's a novel, but based on a true and frightening story.
The novel is called A Deadly Haunting.
And it's based on a true haunting that happened in a place called Rancho Cucamonga in California from 1987 to 91, involving the Moffat family, tormented by an evil and powerful entity in a quite terrifying and relentless way by the looks of the book.
I'm going to have Debbie Moffat, who's behind this book on here very, very soon.
She's had a lot of publicity in America lately, and I just thought wherever you are in the world, from Kenya to New Zealand to California to New York City to London Town, you'd like to hear this.
Please keep your donations coming.
Please keep your contacts coming.
We've got some great shows in the pipeline.
Tell you more about those very, very soon.
And by the way, it was very good to see some of my former colleagues from many radio stations all over the UK at the Radio Academy Awards the other night.
Great fun to be there and to see the great Tony Blackburn honoured for his 50 years in radio.
I've known Tony for quite a few of those years, and he's a good guy and loves music and loves radio.
But a lot of people from many different radio stations, from the northwest of England to the Midlands to Surrey to Hampshire and the many places, including London, where I've worked over the years.
It was a real trip down memory lane for me.
All right, let's get to Debbie Moffitt in the United States, West Coast, to talk about a deadly haunting.
Debbie, thank you for coming on.
Thank you for having me.
Now, Debbie, it was suggested to me that you come on this show, and I was told that your story is fascinating.
And sometimes I take a complete flyer, as we say here in the UK, and just do a thing, even if I know nothing about the person and nothing about the story.
So, you know, I'm taking a chance here, but just listening to you, I don't think it's a big chance to take.
This book that you've written has had an awful lot of publicity in the States, right?
It actually was just released a month ago, so it's just starting to build momentum.
But you've done a few interviews already about it, but I think I've done quite a few, yes.
As far as I can tell from checking on the net, most of the publicity you've had for this has been within the U.S. So, you know, maybe now it's time to spread it outside.
That's fine, yes.
Now, this book concerns a four-year event, 1987 to 1991, in a place that I've never heard of, and I know California pretty well, called Cookamonga.
Tell me about the place first off.
It's 40 miles east of Los Angeles, and it's Rancho Cookamunga, and it's, you know, kind of like a suburb of Los Angeles in a way.
Most people commute to Los Angeles to go to work.
30 miles, from what I remember, in that direction, you're getting up towards the mountains, aren't you?
It becomes quite rural.
It's right in the foothills.
Yeah.
Right.
It becomes quite rural out there.
And I think my European listeners can equate it this way.
If you've been to Portugal or Spain and you've got a lot of urbanization on the coast and you don't have to drive very far inland, and then you hit the mountains, you hit the greenery, you hit the trees, that's what it's like where you are, yeah?
Correct.
And what sort of a community was this?
You know, Was it a community of retired people, business people?
Tell me about the place, the community.
It's kind of mixed.
It's a lot of new people, young people coming in, starting families.
A lot of old, established people that had been there for a while.
It's a very nice community.
And members, your family, tell me about them.
At the time, everyone now has passed other than my children.
That's why I could write this book now.
There was my mother-in-law, my father-in-law, my husband, and myself at the time when this started.
We all lived together.
There were three houses next to each other.
We lived in the middle house.
We rented out the other two houses.
It started back in 1984, actually before I was even here.
My mother-in-law hired a housekeeper from Guatemala to take care of her mother, who had had a stroke and needed full-time care.
When my mother-in-law's mother was dying, this lady supposedly performed some type of Santeria ritual.
So what is a Santeria ritual?
Is that a South American thing?
Yes, yes.
It's a combination of Catholicism and voodoo.
And a reason why we know this is because the people that had come the experts later on, years later, and my mother-in-law described what she found in the house when this lady left.
They attribute to her being a practitioner of this.
She found in the house when the lady left blood, candles, feathers, broken rosary beads.
So they deduced that it was the Santeria ritual.
And how on earth did your family allow that to happen?
Well, she lived in a separate house.
She took care of my mother-in-law's mother.
This was one of the house.
Got it.
This was one of the three houses, as you said.
Right.
So they weren't up there all the time.
So at night, when she was alone, she could practice this and no one would even know.
My mother-in-law's mother that she was taking care of was bedridden.
So she couldn't walk around the house or anything.
So she was confined to one room.
And I guess you've spoken or you did speak to all of the parties involved in this, perhaps apart from the woman who practiced the ritual.
What did they tell you about it?
Why, I was almost going to say, what possessed them to want to do something like this?
I don't know.
They didn't want anything to do with it.
They didn't even know that she did it.
When the night that my mother-in-law's mother died, she called them in the middle of the night screaming for help.
My husband and his cousin went up to the house and she came running out screaming, helper, helper, and went down to my mother-in-law's house.
They took her down.
She said, don't ever go in that house again.
There's something evil there now.
Don't go in the house screaming.
And a few hours later, someone came to pick her up and they never heard from her again.
That is highly disturbing.
And your mother-in-law's mother subsequently died by the sounds of it in a fair deal of distress.
She died in the hospital, actually, that day before this happened.
She died in the hospital.
Okay.
So this was something that happened remotely from where she was.
Yes.
That's disturbing in itself, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
It's very...
This is what I was told by my husband and his family.
I came in in 1987.
That's when we were married, and I moved in with my husband and his mother and father.
We moved in together because my husband had a heart condition, and it was just nice being in that family.
I mean, we felt secure and everything.
So we lived in the middle house with them.
Things start happening in 1987.
The one house that this person supposedly did this ritual in, we rented out to a gentleman who started to ask questions like, has anybody died in this house?
Little things, not really telling us anything that anything was going on, but just giving us hints something was happening.
He brought his son in to live with him, and his son became very strange.
My mother-in-law went by the house at one time, and this, he was a young man.
He was like 20, 22 years old that moved in with his father there.
Was planting trees in the backyard, but he was planting them upside down.
He was putting the tops of the trees in the ground and the roots sticking up.
How old was he?
He was like 22 years old, 22, 23.
And did his father or any of you ask him why he was doing that?
We tried to get in touch with the father.
The father said, oh, he said he didn't understand.
He'd talk to him about it.
That's as far as that went.
Then we started getting things happening in the house on the other side where we were living.
My husband owned that house.
He was renting it out.
We had a tenant there, and the man rented a room and had the use of the house.
But my husband had kept one room in that house for his memorabilia.
He was a collector of sports memorabilia.
So we had access to that house.
We would go down there periodically to check on things.
We went in the one room that was locked up with his memorabilia.
And the first thing that we really noticed, something had taken the bobblehead sports figures off the shelves and had formed a triangle on the floor, had put them in the shape of a triangle on the floor.
Well, our first thought was, of course, that the tenant had done that because you try to rationalize anything that happened.
Well, who else could have done it?
Yeah.
Right.
That's it.
And the room had been locked.
The tenant swore he had not touched anything.
We then started to get apports.
We started in the middle house.
This gentleman's personal items started being apported up to our house.
Now we have to say that this is quite a rare thing to happen.
There is a guy in this country called Gee was Matthew Manning.
Nearly forgot his name there.
He's a guy who's known as a bit of a healer these days.
Very famous in the UK.
But one of the manifestations around him when he was a young man, of which there were many from the reports that I've read, is that items and objects from seemingly nowhere would appear around him in his home.
And apports are exactly that, aren't they?
They're things that are out of place.
It's a question of how can they get there?
How can they come through walls?
How can they be sent from another place at time or whatever?
That was just the start of the apports we used to get.
But like I said, they came from his house.
We couldn't take them back because they were personal items.
We couldn't take them back to him and say, here, these are yours, because he would think that we had taken them from him.
So, you know, they put us in a very strange situation.
What sorts of things appeared?
Tell me what sorts of things, Debbie, appeared.
Okay, my mother-in-law was very religious, and next to her bed, she had a chest that she had religious symbols on that she always said prayers to at night before she went to bed.
It would bring up, like, it brought up some jewelry, it brought up his underwear, socks, personal items, letters.
So that's why we knew they were his because it was his name.
Where and how would they be left?
They would be left on the chest next to my mother-in-law's bed.
Now, we never saw them appear, but you'd look and nothing would be there, and then you'd turn around and something would be there.
We have a phrase here.
I don't know if you have it there, jiggery pokery.
In this country, I think the first thing you would assume trying to stay rational about things is that there was some jiggery pokery going on here and somebody was sneaking in and putting them there to have a joke on you.
You know, that's right, because you always try to rationalize everything.
But this could happen.
She could walk out of the room and walk in and they would be there.
So there was no time for anyone to come in, break in the house, put them there.
They were just appearing.
And in the remote house where the air ports were appearing, was there any change in atmosphere, temperature, feeling, vibe?
Where the ports were appearing was in the house that we were living in together.
Yeah, so in that house, we were looking at the portion of the portion of the house.
At this time, everything that was going on was very, there was not a feeling of anything hostile or anything dark or nasty or anything.
So what did you make of it?
I was amazed.
I mean, it was like, like you said, first we say, well, what's going on?
Who's doing this?
And then when you finally realize, no, there's no one actually doing this, then it started to become actually kind of amazing.
And then other things started happening.
The gentleman next door that was having the porch taken from, he decided all of a sudden in one weekend he was moving out.
He wouldn't tell us why.
He just said, I just have to leave.
So he left.
When we went down there, we found over, it was over light fixtures, like when you click the lights on and off, there were symbols, different kinds of strange symbols in the walls, scratched in the walls and written on the walls.
But he didn't talk to you about it.
He automatically thought.
He didn't talk to you about it.
Pardon?
He didn't talk to you about that.
No, no, he didn't say, he just wanted to leave.
And I mean, he left in one weekend.
He didn't even give us notice.
He just said, I have to leave.
And he was gone.
So this is when other stuff's starting to happen.
We went down there.
My husband went down there to check on his memorabilia.
And I went down there to look to see what had to be cleaned.
All of a sudden, I look up at the ceiling, and there was a large shelf running across the top of the living room.
This shelf was so high, you'd have to get on a step stool or a ladder to arrange the knickknacks that were on it.
And I remember looking up, and it was dusty and thinking, oh, I've got to get in here and dust.
And then when my husband came out, I looked back up and everything that was on that shelf was turned backwards.
And that happened within a minute, just turning around.
So by this stage, Debbie, there's been a series of things happening.
There's somebody who had the Bejeza scared out of him by the looks of it and decided to leave in a big hurry.
What were you thinking and feeling?
Like I said, at the time, there was nothing negative happening, nothing hostile.
To me, at that time, it was more of amazement because you could go into this house and say, you walk and said, if there's anyone here, move something.
And you could go in the other room and come back, and a piece of furniture from one room would be moved to another room.
They're not regular happenings.
There must come a point where you start to think, this is a bit scary.
To me, at that point, it wasn't scary.
To me, it was amazing.
It was very frightening to my mother and my husband.
They were very frightened of this.
My mother-in-law, you know, at the time we were planning on selling these three houses and moving to a larger house together anyway.
But it kind of made us do this a little quicker.
So we started looking for a new house.
And the process of doing that, you must have had a conversation at some point at which you said, okay, this started out by being funny and interesting and kind of different.
Now I'm a bit concerned about this, so the best thing to do is to do what that guy did, and that is get out of here.
Right.
That's what we decided to do.
We decided to buy a new house and just leave.
So we did that.
We didn't sell the property right away.
We moved to it.
We were moving to a new house.
And in the process of moving to the new house, it took us a while because it was only like six miles away, and we could come back every day, get some more of our stuff, move, come back.
One day, this was the last day we were going to be there.
And this is when everything turned hostile.
We came, my mother-in-law and I came down to the house that we were living in to pack.
There was like two more boxes to pack in her bedroom and we would be done.
We were in the bedroom packing, and all of a sudden we heard like an explosion from the kitchen.
And we ran into the kitchen and the cupboards had been ripped off the walls, just ripped, like someone had taken them and just ripped them off the walls.
While we were in the kitchen, we heard glass breaking.
We went back to the bedroom and all the windows in the bedroom had been blown out.
Well, my mother-in-law and we were really frightened.
So we grabbed a box.
We just ran, took the box and left.
That was the last time she ever went in that house again.
And you talked about the cabinets being ripped off the wall there.
Just explain to me how they were fixed to the wall.
Were they screwed onto the wall?
Were they glued there?
They were built-in cabinets.
They were screwed into the walls, and something had just taken, like, grabbed the doors and just ripped and thrown them all around the kitchen.
Now, if you think about it, if they're screwed into the wall and they're done properly, then they could probably take the weight of a person for a while.
So whatever did that so quickly had to have a bit of force going with it.
Yes.
And that's when it started turning, you know, we knew something was very nasty.
And how about temperature?
Did it go down?
Did you feel uneasy?
At that point, like I said, that was the first thing negative that happened.
At that point, there was a heaviness in the air.
But other than that, I don't remember.
See, that was quite a few years ago.
I don't remember if there was a temperature change or not.
Now, that leaves out of the problem, doesn't it?
Because you're moving out of that location.
So the problem would cease to be yours, but it's still yours, really, because you're going to have to explain to whoever comes in what's going on or not as the case may be.
Did you tell, presumably eventually somebody else came to live there, what happened then?
Actually, what happened, there were three properties, and it was on a very commercial lot.
You know, people were going to buy it.
And when these people bought it, we had already moved to the new house, and they bought it like six months later.
And in the meantime, the entity had moved from that property with us up to the new property.
So nothing was happening back at the old property because it had left.
So what had attached itself somehow to you?
Actually, it was after my mother-in-law.
That's where it focused all its negative energy.
Because the original ritual done by that helper who disappeared in a big hurry was around your mother-in-law and her mother.
So the focus of all of this, albeit a couple of years before, yep, was with her.
Right.
And the strange thing is this property, it's down on a very industrial area now in Ranch Cucamonga.
And this has been 25 years.
And like six months after they bought the property, they bought it for an investment to build things there.
The houses were raised.
And to this day, nothing has ever been built on that property.
And it's in an area that is all built up.
But there's just this large lot, nothing being built there.
And this entity or thing or spirit or whatever it was, you know, Poltergeist, came with you to your new location.
Is that so?
Right.
When we moved, it was about two weeks.
Everything was quiet.
We were thankful.
I know my mother-in-law was praying and thanking God that it hadn't come with us.
Two weeks later, the first thing that happened, a picture was turned backwards.
And we knew when that picture was turned backwards, you know, you get like a chill knowing, uh-oh, it's with us.
And from there, it progressed.
My mother and father-in-law, this is a large house we live in.
It's a one, it was a one-family house, but it had the upstairs was made like a sitting room and a bedroom and another bathroom upstairs.
And that's where they slept.
The entity started communicating on the mirror with soap.
With soap?
It started writing.
What did it write?
It started from the beginning.
It started saying, talk to me.
This at this point sounds like it's getting very, very scary.
You had quite a level-headed approach to the whole thing up to that point.
Now, if this was me and I had something in my bathroom that had followed me to my new home and was writing messages to me, apparently on the mirror, I would be incredibly frightened.
Yes, everyone was.
I was not so frightened.
I still had a point.
I just knew it wasn't going to hurt me.
I was very confident in the fact that I was safe.
I felt fear for my mother-in-law, especially, and my husband, and my family, but personally, I wasn't frightened as much as they were.
And you've moved to a new location then, so you can't, you're committed to this new place, presumably.
You can't just upsticks and get out of there.
Right, right, because it made us know from this point on, it was with us wherever we went.
If we went outside and we went to a restaurant, when we came home, the name tag of the lady that waited on us would be sitting on the kitchen table.
Things from the restaurant would be on the table like it was saying, I was with you.
So we couldn't escape it no matter where we went.
It was with us.
Now, look, I am taking you on trust that you're telling me the truth here because I have never heard a story like this.
So you're living in this location.
Whatever it is from the other three houses has come with you to the new location.
Then you decide, maybe, look, we want to take a break from this.
Let's go and have a tortilla or whatever down the road there.
And you go there, you have your meal, pay the waitress, get in the car, come home, and something from the person who served you is in your home when you arrive.
Right.
The name tag.
The person who just waited on us, their name tag, would be sitting on the kitchen table.
Or like we went to a pizza place to have pizza.
The things they used to serve the pizza were three of them sitting on our table.
Now, in a situation like this, Debbie.
Sorry, carry on?
Yeah.
It made you...
It made us know that it was with us, that we couldn't escape it.
And this was a hard time because my mother-in-law was petrified of it.
My husband was afraid of it.
But my mother-in-law was also embarrassed that this was happening because she felt in a way that she must be being punished for something.
So she didn't want any.
So what happened is we became very isolated because she wouldn't let us tell people what was going on.
She thought they would think we were crazy or that she was a bad person because this was happening.
So we became very isolated.
And that's what was the bad part.
We couldn't even go to someone's house.
One time we went to visit someone and the entity took the man's wallet and brought it to our house.
Took the man's wallet.
You said took the man's wallet.
Yes.
So when we got home, his wallet was sitting on our table.
Now, how can we go back to our friends and say, by the way, we have your wallet?
I have no idea.
You can't.
The first thing I would say, Debbie, in that situation, the first thing I would do before I started looking at the supernatural, and it's certainly pointing in that direction, I would, quite honestly, no matter how close you were as a family unit, I would look at your mother-in-law and I would look at your husband.
First of all, for explanations as to why this is happening.
Is there some unconscious part of them that's actually doing these things?
You know what?
We did think that.
So we went to a psychologist as a family.
We went to a psychologist that was close by.
We explained everything that was going on.
We told him what was happening.
Each one of us went individually.
Then we went as a family unit.
And he would listen.
He would talk to us.
And then when he was done, when we said, what do you Think what we can do?
He recommended, he said, I can't help you.
You're going to need to find some type of assistance.
Try to get a parapsychologist or try to find someone who can help you deal with this.
He said, because I can't figure out what's going on.
So the psychologist, who you would have thought, bearing in mind that psychologists are trained in all of this stuff, who would leap on a rational explanation to do with the mental state of the people involved, actually sent you away.
Right.
He said he couldn't help us.
He said we had to find someone that dealt in this kind of this area because he didn't know what was happening.
But if you didn't have a mental problem before you went there, you would certainly have one potentially when you finished with that because I guess you would start to think we are beyond help in a way.
You know, you did get that feeling, especially my mother-in-law.
And you know, other things like when there was writing on the mirror, we automatically thought, well, one of us is doing it.
But we would do experiments where we'd clean the mirror.
All four of us would leave the room.
We'd ask a question of Mr. Entity.
We'd ask him a question.
We'd leave the room.
No one else went in the room.
We'd stand right there, wait a few seconds, go back in, and he would answer the question.
Now, when we were together, no one could have went in there.
So something was writing without us being able to see it.
And you told me first off, Debbie, that you got a message written in soap saying, talk to me.
Tell me about the process of you deciding to make communication, deciding to do that.
Because I presume you didn't automatically say, okay, let's do this.
You must have had some mental consideration.
We didn't write.
It was frightening.
I was amazed.
We were frightened, though.
We didn't want to communicate with something you couldn't see.
So we decided to kind of try to ignore it, not talk to it.
But when we didn't talk to it, it destroyed our house.
It literally, it would gouge symbols in our walls, scratch symbols in the wall, right all over the walls, cut up our carpets in the symbol.
It had a symbol that was like its symbol, which was a triangle.
And at the bottom of the triangle, there's an oily tail.
And that was like his signature.
He would put that everywhere.
I mean, he ruined the rugs in the house.
He gouged out big triangles in all the rugs, gouged out triangles in the walls.
I mean, he destroyed the house.
It was an everyday process of trying to keep up the repairs.
What was it like living with that, Debbie?
What was it like living with it?
Oh, it was a terrible time.
It was like, but not that we didn't try help.
At that time, my mother-in-law, she had to get help.
But remember, this was like 20 years ago, 25 years ago.
There wasn't the internet where you could research things or look for people to help you.
It was a process.
We used to go look in the paper for psychic fares and psychics, and we even ended up going to the university.
Thelma Moss, who was a researcher in this, who sent out Kerry Gaynor to try to help us.
We had the Warrens, Ed and Lorraine Warren, come and try to help us.
Who were they?
We went all over the United States to try to get help.
Who are the Warrens?
Are they famous?
Are they well known?
Yeah, they're the demonologists.
They're very famous.
Ed and Lorraine Warren.
Ed and Lorraine Warren came.
She said, this is a very ancient, intelligent, and very powerful and evil demon here.
And they tried to help us get rid of it.
It's just no one can get rid of it.
But I found that if I talked to it, if you talked to it and had communication with it, it talks to you on the mirror.
The destruction lessened.
So this almost sounds like...
You feed this thing with attention, then it'll stop hurting you.
Yes, and it became like our controller.
We became like puppets for it because it did control our lives.
We couldn't have friends over.
We couldn't go and visit people.
So we became isolated, which was the worst thing that could happen.
If this was me and I was going through that for a period, it would wear me down bit by bit.
Did it wear you down?
You know, I felt at this point, my husband had a bad heart.
My mother-in-law was frightened.
My husband was frightened.
My father-in-law was indifferent to it.
So I had to become like the protector, the between-man that would try to protect my family because I had no choice.
No one could get rid of it.
Someone had to stand up to it.
So I went into the bathroom and I said, this is the way it's going to be.
You're going to respect me and I'm going to respect you.
And I don't want you to touch my child.
I don't want you to touch my husband.
I don't want you to touch my mother-in-law.
And he wrote, I will not touch your child.
I will not touch your husband, but your mother-in-law belongs to me.
Oh, my Lord.
And what did you make of that?
I asked him why, you know, because here's what you would do.
You'd go into the bathroom, you would talk, you'd leave, you'd come back a few minutes later, and he would write messages on the mirror.
So he could communicate like I'm communicating with you, but it would be written.
And he was extremely intelligent.
My mother-in-law spoke like three or four different languages.
And one of the languages she spoke was Tobresh, which is, she was Sicilian, which was a dialect of Albanian and Sicilian.
Now, it's a dead language.
People don't speak it anymore.
But she would speak to my husband and father-in-law in this language, hoping that the entity wouldn't know what she was saying.
And the entity would answer her in Tobresh on the mirror.
Good Lord.
Did you ever ask it, presumably you did, via these messages on the mirror, who are you?
What are you?
Yes.
I said, who are you?
He said, I am Prince.
Prince.
Prince.
I am Prince.
And I asked him why my mother-in-law belonged to him.
He said she had been promised to him in a ritual, and it never had come to pass.
So he was coming now to claim her.
Did you connect that with the ritual that happened in the original house?
No, because he told me it happened many, many in like the 16, 1700s from a monastery.
He told me a whole long story of what went on and how the ritual was supposed to, but these monks were supposed to have sacrificed her and something happened, and one of them was a traitor on him.
And so the ritual never came to be, but he felt that she had been promised and she still belonged to him.
So this is something that allegedly happened in Europe.
It wouldn't have happened in America because there wasn't an America when this happened.
Right.
He took a monastery.
Really?
And did you research it?
Yes, but he didn't tell me what country or what year or anything.
It was the Sacred Heart Monastery.
And I tried looking it up, but like I said, back then, it wasn't like now where you have access to so many means to look things up.
There was no way for me to really find too much about it.
But one thing he did, which was, this to me is the most amazing thing.
He apported a spearhead to my father-in-law.
He wanted, yeah, it was at the top of a spear, the metal part of the top of the spear, the point.
He apported that to my father-in-law, and it got so bad that we all moved in together.
My father and mother-in-law had to move out of the upstairs.
Mr. Entity took over the upstairs.
That became his domain.
If you started going up the steps, when you got halfway up the steps, you could feel everything change.
But I thought he promised not to harm you.
You became over you.
I thought he promised not to harm you.
No, no, he didn't harm me.
He never touched me.
He never touched my child or my husband.
But he said Lee was his.
But he started attacking her upstairs, really.
He slashed their bed into pieces.
He destroyed her clothes.
He did things to this poor lady that you wonder how she kept her sanity.
And when he said to you, when he communicated with you and told you that she had been promised to him, prince whoever he was, did you assume that that meant her ultimate destruction?
Yes, because he used to tell us, you know, she's going to go with me.
I hate Lee.
He hated her.
There was such, when he even spoke, when he wrote, he'd write on the mirror, I hate Lee.
Lee is mine.
And then, like I said, he apported the spearhead.
Yeah.
Let's pick up on that because that is something that isn't an item from the house next door.
How old was this thing?
What was it?
Where did it come from?
Oh, it came from, he apported in the middle of the night in bed with my father-in-law.
He gave the message on the mirror that he wanted a blood ritual, and my father-in-law was to use my mother-in-law to get the blood.
I get that, but a spearhead is something very specific, and they tend not to make that many of them these days, I don't think.
So it must have come from somewhere, from some time, someplace.
Right.
I still have it.
Back then, we took it to the Museum of Natural History in Los Angeles to try to get it identified.
They told us there at the time it was from the Belgian Congo area, that it was over 200 years old, and they could tell by the way it was sharpened, the sides were not sharp, and it's pointed.
The point was sharp at the end.
But he said it wasn't used for hunting, and it wasn't used for warfare because it wasn't sharpened that way.
For the way it was sharpened, and from the looks of it, it was used by a shaman for some type of rituals.
So that was over 200 years old, and he brought it, and that's what he wanted to be used to get the blood from my mother-in-law.
And by this time, how far into this, Debbie, were you?
Was it a couple of years?
How far into the process?
The spear came about two years into this.
How are you all feeling at that point?
Because by the time I get sent a spearhead for use in some kind of ritual, and by the time the people upstairs are being absolutely scared wickless by all of this, I would have thought it's time to stop researching and start making plans to get a truck and get out.
Well, see, we could get out.
We could have moved, but it just go with us.
Like I said, no matter where we went, it was with us.
It wasn't attached to the property.
It wasn't attached to where we were.
It was attached to my mother-in-law.
So we couldn't get away from it.
And were you not tempted at some point to get the mother-in-law, I know this sounds heartless and callous, but to somehow separate the mother-in-law from you?
No.
You know, I got to the point, I love my mother-in-law.
She was a wonderful woman.
I knew if I got away from my mother-in-law and left her, that this entity would kill her, and I couldn't let that happen.
You sound incredibly level-headed about all of this.
I don't know what background you had, Debbie.
You know, what had you been?
What had you done in your working life?
Do you know what I think it is?
I think sometimes you're pushed to a point where you have no alternative.
There was no one I could turn to to say, help me.
No, I'm trying to get a handle on what might have prepared you to stand up to this thing with the fortitude that you showed against it, which I don't think I would have.
You know what?
I don't know.
Like I said, I think it was just because there was no alternative.
I wasn't going to let it hurt my family.
And the entity spoke to me with respect.
From that point on, it did.
As a matter of fact, when it brought the spear, I took it.
And I said, you're not having a blood ritual.
And it got so mad, it blew out all the windows in the top floor.
And presumably, you then have to get somebody to come in and do that repair.
What do you tell the person who comes in to do the repair?
Oh, we said, a lot of times we said vandals.
I mean, this was one time it loved to break the windows on my father-in-law's truck and the mirrors, especially.
And I mean, it would do it.
He'd get them fixed.
Two days later, it'd break them again.
It got to the point where he was getting them fixed.
They had to make a pattern just for him because every two or three days they had to replace the mirrors.
Now, how do you, this is what I mean.
How do you tell people what's going on without them thinking you're crazy?
You tried to get help, didn't you?
You tried in a couple of places to get help.
We tried.
For years, we never stopped trying.
We never stopped.
And we have to try and remind people who are listening to this, because we're all on the internet and this show is going out on the internet.
Everybody's connected now, but it's not that many years ago when people were not connected.
And if you wanted to find out about stuff, then you had to go to a library, buy a book, phone somebody up.
Right.
We've looked in the papers for psychic fairs.
We'd go to psychic fairs and we'd say, listen, we have this problem.
Because these were people that were, you know, they understood more than the average person.
They were into this.
We have this problem going on at our house.
Do you know anybody who can help us?
And we went from person to person.
We went from people, we sent from people from Louisiana.
We sent from people From New York.
We had people come from all over the United States to try to help us.
And what about your mother-in-law and her husband?
What about their mental and physical state at that time?
Were they getting depleted?
My father-in-law was not a nice man.
This is part of the story.
This is why it gets so complicated.
It ends up where my father-in-law actually starts to work with the entity.
When the warrens were here, they performed a rite of provocation where they tried to make the entity show itself.
And the entity went into my father-in-law and talked.
How do you know that?
I was there.
How do you know that it was the entity that it was going into your father-in-law and not something to do with him?
Do you know?
I don't.
I can't tell you.
I can just tell you what I observed and what I felt from the situation.
Because you really, on these things, you never really know.
And you never started to think at any point that since you tell me he wasn't a very nice person, and that was very honest of you to tell me that, that maybe in some way on a more practical level, and nothing to do with spirits or entities, maybe this was something to do with him and his mind.
No, it could have been.
The entity said that he knew my father-in-law from a past life also.
See, so it wove the story of what was going on.
What was real, what was made up, what was lies, I never knew.
I could only exist within what was given to me and try to survive.
And that's what I did.
But everything has to have some kind of conclusion.
You couldn't carry on living like that.
So how did you bring it to some kind of conclusion?
Here's what happened.
Finally, we kept telling my mother-in-law, one lady that came who recently died, Dr. Evelyn Paglini, she came to the house and she said, one of you is keeping this entity here.
And because of that, no one can get rid of it.
Because if you give someone an entity permission to stay in your house, it doesn't have to leave.
So she said, we'll find out which one of you is doing it.
So she said, tonight something's going to happen.
Call me tomorrow and let me know.
That night, about 3 o'clock in the morning, my father-in-law wakes up in bed.
Now, you have to remember, at this time, we were all living in the same bedroom.
It had gotten so bad that we, at night, my mother-in-law wouldn't, she had to be with my husband and myself.
Well, you said earlier you all moved in together.
It got to the stage where you literally were occupying the same space at night because you were so scared.
My God.
Thank goodness it was a master bedroom with a sitting room and everything was big enough so we all could fit in there.
You were living under siege, Debbie.
Oh, yeah, we were.
And because this had gone on for so long, it became our normal.
Do you know what I mean?
It became when you woke up in the morning, you talked to the entity.
You looked, the entity liked to put knives under chair, attack my mother-in-law.
My mother-in-law would have certain places she would sit.
The entity would stick knives and booby-trap knives.
So if she sat down, she'd sit on a knife or a knife would cut her.
So we went to, it became normal for us before Ma could sit down, we had to check where she sat.
We had, you know, it was like constantly protecting my mother-in-law.
So, but that became our normal because when you live the abnormal for so long, it becomes your normal.
You got Evelyn Paglini involved.
That's going to the best there is from what I understand.
So how did she try to help you?
She said that somebody there was keeping that thing there.
Right.
So in the middle of the night, my father-in-law wakes up and he starts coughing and gagging and shaking.
And this went on for like a half hour.
We thought we were going to have to take him to the hospital.
It was so bad.
It was dramatic.
Then all of a sudden, he stops and he looks at us and he said, I'm okay.
Put his head down on the pillow and went to sleep.
Just like that.
After a half hour almost looks like he was dying.
The next day, I told Evelyn Paglini about this.
She told me, well, now we know who's keeping the entity here.
It's your father-in-law.
I would catch my father-in-law, I would be the only one that would go in the bathroom and talk to the entity because everyone else was too frightened of it.
And then all of a sudden, I would see my father-in-law sneaking into the bathroom.
And when he left, the mirror would be cleaned.
Now, no one ever cleaned the mirror but me.
I had to keep it clean so that the entity could keep talking to us so it wouldn't destroy the house.
And then the entity said to me, you know, he's asking me to hurt the mother-in-law.
He wants her hurt.
He would be telling me these things that my father-in-law wanted her dead.
So it was a terrible situation because then not only did I have to protect my mother-in-law from the entity, but from my father-in-law.
Did you call the cops?
Did you get the cops involved, Debbie?
You know, because how can you call the cops and say, there's something we can't see doing this?
And my mother-in-law wanted nothing to do with anybody knowing what was going on other than the experts that came to the house.
So it wouldn't do any good to call the police because what were we going to tell them who was doing it?
It sounds to me that at this stage where you're all sleeping in the same rough space at night, you know, the same kind of location at night, when increasingly frightening things are happening, where you're starting to have doubts about your father-in-law, and your mother-in-law is being attacked in bizarre ways.
This sounds to me like it's spiraling into something that could turn into a tragedy.
Yes, it did.
The entity started on the mirror saying, Lee will die in so many days.
I think it was 10 days.
And he did a countdown.
Lee will die in nine days.
Lee will die in eight days.
When it got to the day, Lee will die today.
Out of the blue, my mother-in-law hadn't even been ill.
She became like in an hour.
She started having terrible pain in her chest.
She had to go to the doctor, and the doctor sent her right to the hospital.
She had double pneumonia and congestive heart failure.
And up until that day, she was perfectly all right.
So why?
She was in intensive care for over three weeks.
They thought she was going to die.
When she came out, she was on oxygen.
I remember her telling me, she said, when I was in the hospital, it would come into the room with me.
She said it would be like a dark shape that would come down the walls and come over to the bed.
And she swore to me.
Now, I never saw it, so I can't tell you if it happened or not.
She swore to me, she said, the only reason I'm not dead is my mother-in-law, her mother, her mother, Dominica, who had died.
Remember, that was the mother that was being taken care of.
She said, my mother-in-law showed itself and came and stood next to my bed and stopped the entity from killing me.
She said, or I'd be dead.
At this stage, were you getting anyone to record any of this?
We have a famous case over here that I've done a program about.
It's probably the most famous case of poltergeist activity in the UK.
Not really comparable with what was happening with you, but the Enfield Poltergeist.
I interviewed the man who did the most extensive research about this.
And for a long period, they were documenting, photographing, tape recording, noting down everything that happened.
Did you try and do any of that?
Yeah, this is what we did.
When we started out, the first three people that would come, they'd say, now start documenting everything that's happening.
So every time the entity would do something, I'd take a picture of it, wrote on the mirror, I'd take pictures.
Then the next person would come and they'd say, well, you can't keep this.
You get rid of all these things because you're keeping it here by giving it power by taking pictures of it and acknowledging it.
So we'd throw everything away.
So it was constant, taking pictures, throwing them away.
But my husband did save.
He saved like over nearly probably 200 pictures of things that had happened with the negatives that I had, that he had hidden a box.
And where are they now?
I have them.
I have the spearhead.
I still have the spear and pictures, like 200 pictures of what went on with the entity writing and the things that it did.
So your mother-in-law gets sick.
She's in hospital.
It's looking touch and go.
The entity had vowed that she would die within 10 days, 9 days, whatever, however many days.
But she didn't die.
What happened?
She came home.
We finally convinced my mother-in-law that she had to get rid of my father-in-law, that the only way we were going to get rid of this entity was if he left.
And it was very hard for her to do it because she was old world Italian.
If you were married, you were married good or bad.
You stayed married.
Right.
But she finally, first step was we got him out of the bedroom into a different bedroom.
That was the first step of breaking away from her breaking away from him.
He wasn't a nice man.
He was a very greedy, very jealous man.
But, like I said, she believed she had to stay with him.
Finally, she understood that he had to go.
Well, he left.
He went and moved somewhere else.
The entity stayed.
But the entity, at this time, when it stayed, it wasn't quite as hostile as it was before.
I mean, it wasn't quite as, you know, it wasn't being fed that hate that I think he actually had for my mother-in-law because he really didn't like my mother-in-law.
So it sounds to me like this entity, the prince, whatever the entity was, was feeding off your father-in-law like a car battery.
Right.
That's what I deduced also, that the hate that it loved, it used to put us in terrible situations.
And it was almost like it had a sense of humor.
It would do strange things that were almost amusing in a way to the entity.
It was like we were like, like I told you, like we were the puppets and he'd watch us.
And finally, like I said, my father-in-law left.
And we had this gentleman who had come before.
He was a researcher and a writer about the paranormal.
And he actually, believe it or not, told the entity that he could come with him.
He said he could, because this gentleman felt that maybe Mr. Entity would work with him and make him famous, believe it or not.
That's why that's what was going on in his head.
So he told the entity, I'm leaving.
He was going to England to work in England.
He said, you can come with me.
So I told the entity, I said, you have to leave now.
There's no one here going to feed you.
We love each other.
I'm not going to let you hurt my family.
So you have to leave.
So this is a researcher who's coming to England to do more research.
Who is this?
I'd rather not give his name because he's not on friendly terms with us right now.
Some of my listeners would say that's very convenient.
But let's say his name is Gary.
His first name is Gary.
I can tell you what his name is off the air, but that's his name.
So the entity finally, the entity wrote, one of the things it wrote says, this man is an empty vessel.
I will not work with an inferior being.
This is the researcher.
No, the researcher, that's what the entity said about the researcher.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's what I'm saying.
The researcher said, the entity said, this guy is an empty vessel.
He's not highly evolved enough for me to work with.
So what happens then?
I said to Mr. Entity, I said, you have to leave.
You cannot stay here.
You're not wanted.
No one here is keeping you here.
We're not going to feed you.
We love each other.
You're not going to win.
So he said, but I don't want to leave.
I said, you have to leave.
So finally, the last thing it said, two last things it said, it said, all right, Gary, you are now my servant.
We can leave now.
And the entity said, goodbye.
And from that point on, we never heard another word about the entity.
So this person, Gary, as far as you know, is he still in England, in the UK?
No, no, no, he's back in the United States.
Wow.
But you're not in contact with him.
I was up to about a year, a couple years ago, but he has changed.
He's a little strange now.
And do you think if that is so, that that's to do with the actions of the entity?
You know, I don't know.
It could be.
I don't know if the entity is still with him or if the entity stayed with him for a long period.
But Gary is different than he was then.
And what of your mother-in-law and one of your father-in-law who left?
What became of them?
My mother-in-law died of congestive heart failure.
My father-in-law moved away, remarried, and he died.
And two years ago, my husband died of congestive heart failure.
I'm sorry.
So everyone, that's the reason why I'm actually now being able to tell the story.
For 25 years, we weren't allowed to talk about it.
Why?
My mother-in-law believed that if you talked about it, you'd bring it back.
So I can understand her being cautious and scared about that because what you all went through, if it's to be believed, is staggering, a terrible, terrible experience that must have taken a toll on you.
You know, it did, but it actually once you're touched by things like this, you're never the same.
You completely change.
Because you know, you know, there's always part of you that thinks when you watch a story or read something, oh, that's not true.
But when you go through something, you have to be more open-minded from then on because you know there are things that go bump in the night.
There are things that happen that you don't understand.
They're true.
Do you protect yourself now?
Do you try to?
Yes, I protect myself.
And I feel very confident, but I feel good that I told this story because for 25 years I kept quiet.
I never said a word.
But it was like because of that, it was like the entity still had a little control over us because by not telling people what happened, he still had the power over us to stop us from talking.
And now he has no power over me anymore because I told what happened.
The book that you've written, though.
Debbie, the book that you've written is a novel based on this story.
Why did you not just write something factual directly about the story, which is powerful enough by itself?
The person I contacted to do this, because when I started to do this, I did have reservations.
Because after this happened, you know, there is part of you that thinks, am I going to do anything that I shouldn't do and do bring something back?
Because even though I was strong in my feeling of I was fine and protected, there's still in the back of your mind after you experience this, should I do this?
So talking with her, we decided if we put it in this form, then it would be easier for people to understand what happened.
And it would just be easier this way.
So it's based on my story.
Some of the stuff in the book is dramatized.
It's not true.
You know, she took a little situations and changed them a little bit.
But 90% of what happened in the book is absolute fact.
But you wanted to tell the story to, in a way, cleanse yourself of the whole experience.
And I certainly understand that.
It must have been terrible waiting 20-odd years to be able to speak about it.
What I don't quite compute is why, which, let's face it, you've just done with me, why you just didn't make a TV documentary, get somebody in there to do that, or write a book directly about the experience rather than adding bits of little dramatically enhanced.
I think it had to do with the lady that wrote it, the lady that I had write it.
It was her idea to do it this way.
And I was a novice in the field.
I just wanted to tell my story.
She suggested this way.
She worked for Disney.
She had 25 years experience in the entertainment field.
She said, this is the way to do it.
So I just went with what she said.
And how do you feel about it all now?
Because by doing all of this publicity and all these interviews that you're doing and the more that you will do around the world, doesn't it bring it back?
I don't mean bring the entity back, but bring the experience back.
It does.
But, you know, I find now that when I look back at it, I almost disassociate myself from it.
It's like I'm looking back at something that I'm observing instead of participating in.
And how do you feel in yourself now?
Your health, your mental state?
I feel good.
I feel very good.
I feel very good, and I feel lighter.
I know this is strange, but it's like what went on had like a darkness part of me that I had to keep hidden.
And now it's like I'm going to tell anybody that wants to hear.
Some people are going to think I'm nuts.
Some people aren't going to believe me, but I'm going to tell them.
Some people, Debbie, are going to think you're making it all up.
That's the fact.
I will get the emails, and you're going to hear it on other shows, and you'll hear it yourself.
People are going to say it to you.
What do you say to them?
I say, you know, come over, listen to me, see my pictures, feel the spear.
Come, let me talk to you one-on-one.
I mean, you can ask me anything you want.
I'll tell you the truth on everything.
That's why the interviews are easy for me because I tell just what happened.
I don't have to think, oh, no, how did I tell this one, this one, or this one, this one?
I'm just telling you the way it was.
And since Evelyn Paglini, who you tell me was involved in this, and this other guy called Gary, have you had any other psychic investigators involved in this case?
Oh, one that's a very dear friend now is Brian Hurst.
He's English that lives in Los Angeles.
He's 25 years ago, but he still remembers it, and he can talk about it.
If anytime you'd like to talk to him about it, he could tell you because he witnessed things too.
He went through it with us.
He went for some of the years he would visit, and he tried to help my mother-in-law.
He was wonderful.
And is there anything documented online or anywhere else about his work?
With you?
Yes, Brian Hurst, he's a famous medium in the Los Angeles area.
I'll be very keen to talk with him about this.
Yeah.
So you've been through one hell of an experience, the kind of thing that, like you say, you said it, it changes you.
It does.
And going forward, what advice would you give to anybody else who thinks that they may be affected by something similar?
What I feel, this is what I would tell anybody, don't keep it to yourself.
There's going to be people, like I said, that think you're crazy.
There's going to be people that think you're lying.
But there's going to be people that believe you and will try to help you.
Don't stay isolated.
That's what the entity did to us.
It isolated us, and by isolating us, it became more powerful.
So talk about it.
Let people know what's going on.
That's the only thing you can do.
And there will be people out there who will believe you and who will help you.
Now, if you think about poltergeist cases, and I know this wasn't a poltergeist case, this is often about the interactions of the people involved in the case, the people living in that space, the people who are together.
How much of this do you believe might have been that kind of phenomenon versus some kind of foul, evil, dark spirit coming in?
You know, I don't know.
I do believe that the entity was fed by my father-in-law.
I believe wholeheartedly there was an entity here.
I communicated with him.
He used to tell me things that he did in history.
He told me other people that he had affected.
I mean, this wasn't one year of talking to this Mr. Entity.
This was four and five years.
So the entity had a bit of a career of doing this then.
Right.
He'd answer questions.
Everybody that came to the house, the people that tried to get rid of him, he would critique.
This one doesn't have any power.
This one doesn't know how to do this.
This one's lying to you.
Don't trust this one.
It was like talking to someone.
And he had a sense of humor.
He did some very funny things, actually.
One time we went to get away.
We went to Santa Barbara for like a weekend just to get away from the house.
Even though when my mother-in-law packed her clothes, everything was fine.
When we got there, opened the suitcase, everything in the suitcase was sopping wet.
I mean, that's the kind of things he did, just to let you know he was there.
We were walking through the lobby.
It was like a motel.
And in the lobby, there was like a little garden.
And there was this big, beautiful palm fern, that is, a fern.
It had to be at least 100-pound fern.
And my mother-in-law said, isn't that beautiful?
And I said, you know, tonight, I'll get you a little piece of that fern and you can take it home and plant it, and then you can have a fern.
Well, later that night, I went to go to their room, and Mr. Entity had pulled the fern, this 100-pound fern, out of the ground and stuck it in her doorway so you couldn't get in and out of the doorway.
Oh, my.
So we had a, yeah, I mean, it would do things like that.
The person I feel sorry for in all of this is your mother-in-law, who I've kind of, I'm warming to.
You know, I've warmed to through the course of this conversation.
After this had happened.
Wonderful woman.
Well, after this had happened and after she'd split from, you know, her husband and everything quietened down, in the period before she died, how did she sum all of this up?
Did she talk about it?
Did she say anything about it?
No, for like a year, nearly two years after this happened and my father-in-law left, she still slept with us in the bedroom.
She couldn't sleep in any part of the house.
And only near the end of her life, after 25 years, did she ever even go back upstairs?
So this scarred her for, I mean, she was, she never was quite the same.
She was a wonderful woman.
I loved her dearly.
And she was just a wonderful lady.
No, I can understand how you feel about it.
She suffered, and you were strong, but she was the focus of all of this, so it must have been really, really hell for her, literally.
Right.
It was.
It was.
And like I said, once it left, she never would talk about it.
We couldn't, because she believed, you know, if you come back.
So just we stopped.
We didn't mention it again.
Well, Debbie Moffat, an amazing story.
You know a lot of people are going to accuse you of fantasy, making this up and all the rest of it.
But leaving that aside, if people want to know about this, you even have a website about the book, don't you?
Right.
It's at deadlyhaunting.com.
And they can go on there and read about the story.
And there's pictures.
Some of the pictures I took are there.
There's a picture of the spear also there if they want to look at it.
Are you hoping to get rich out of this?
Pardon?
Are you hoping to get rich out of this?
Oh, that would be nice.
That would be a good part, but I just feel good talking about it.
I just feel great about that.
Well, you know.
You're honest on every level.
Debbie, very nice to talk with you.
I wish you luck.
Please stay safe.
And, you know, as I say at the end of every show, stay safe, stay calm, and stay in touch.
I'll say all three of those to you.
Please take care.
And, you know, I've enjoyed talking with you.
Thank you so much, Howard.
It was so nice of you to let me tell my story.
Debbie Moffat, and I'll put a link to the Deadly Haunting website on my website, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv.
Please go to the website if you want to send me a message or a donation, find out about past shows, find out about future shows, that is the place to go.
And the website, created, maintained, designed by Adam Cornwell, a creative hotspot in Liverpool.
Like I say, more really good shows coming soon.
Thank you very much for keeping the faith with me and with The Unexplained.
Together, we can make this bigger, we can make this better.
My name is Howard Hughes.
I'm in London.
And until we meet again, stay safe, stay calm, and stay in touch.
Take care.
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