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Sept. 2, 2013 - The Unexplained - Howard Hughes
01:03:50
Edition 123 - The Real Area 51

Featuring researcher Thomas J Carey – recorded a few days before the death of Jesse MarcelJnr...

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Across the UK, across continental North America, and around the world, on the internet, by webcast and by podcast, my name is Howard Hughes and this is The Unexplained.
Well, I can't believe that we've reached 123 editions of The Unexplained, I remember when I trepidaciously sat in my car outside Yuri Gello's home in the Thames Valley.
At the start of this adventure, Yuri's always been a big supporter of mine and this show, and I was about to go and interview him for Edition 1.
And if you go back to Edition 1, you'll hear him at the end of that show making some very good points about the way that we can take this forward, which have turned out to be true.
But I never thought that we'd get this far, and now we really have hit the ground running.
And who knows what this little piece of the independent media can do in the future.
But it all depends on your support.
So if you'd like to make a donation to the show, then go to the website, www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv, and follow the PayPal link there to make a donation.
Every cent we can get goes towards helping run this show and develop it in the future.
That is also the address, www.theunexplained.tv, to send me an email.
Your guest suggestions, had some really good ones in lately.
Your comments about the show and the way that I'm doing it and how I can improve it.
And also your stories.
If you have a paranormal story, alien contact, perhaps you've had a poltergeist in your house or whatever, or you know somebody who has, and you've never told the story before, now's your chance to do it.
All you've got to do is send me an email and if you title it, My Story, and as we said, towards the end of this year, I'm going to collate your stories and maybe call one or two of you, put those on too, and I'll read the others.
And I think it will be a good show.
I've had some excellent stories in, some short stories, some longer stories.
Keep those coming.
My story.
You can submit it at www.theunexplained.tv, the website designed and created by Adam Cornwell at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool.
Now, this time around, a very topical show in the last few weeks, the CIA has confirmed the existence of Area 51.
You must have seen this in the news, and if you haven't, don't get too excited because they weren't confirming that they were back engineering alien technology or anything like that there, but at least they've confirmed that this thing exists, which to some will be a major step forward.
And that is why I'm about to talk to Thomas J. Carey, well-known UFO investigator, a former Air Force man, a man with impeccable credentials.
He and his co-author Donald R. Schmidt have done an awful lot of work on topics like Roswell, The Crash There, and the new book, very exciting and very topical right now, Inside the Real Area 51, The Secret History of Wright-Patterson.
If ever there was a topic for this show, this one has to be it.
So thank you for your support.
Please tell your friends about this show.
Keep the emails coming, and let's do a great show this time, you and I. Let's get on now to the United States, to Thomas J. Carey, and we're going to talk about Inside the Real Area 51.
Thomas, thank you for coming on.
It's my distinct pleasure.
And do you like to be called Thomas or Tom?
So we start off on the right foot.
Tom.
All right, Tom.
Well, listen, lovely to talk with you.
And you're Howard Hughes.
I thought you were dead.
Well, you know what?
The number of times I get that from people, the only regret in my life is that I don't have any claim at all on the Hughes fortune.
And I really think for what I've gone through in my life, I deserve some.
I thought it was going to be my chance to cash in here.
Too late.
Too many others have, and they haven't succeeded.
I would have loved to have had my chance.
But can you imagine?
When I was a kid, I had a little accident in the playground at school and I had to go to hospital to have a stitch put in my wrist.
And the doctor there thought he was the first person who'd ever said this.
He said, ah, Howard Hughes, he said, HH, I knew immediately when I saw you, you are a millionaire.
Right, right.
Yeah, that's what I thought, because I thought, oh, my goodness, he's been resurrected somehow.
Well, my parents thought that this would be a good name.
My mum loved the name Howard, and they thought that Howard Hughes, which he was, was very, very distinguished, and they didn't think it would be a problem.
And I've thought over my career, shall I change my name to something else?
Because quite often, especially in America, people just think I'm putting them on.
They don't believe that it could really be my name.
Right.
That was my first thought.
But at times in my career, I've been Duncan Brown.
But really, I prefer working under my own name.
So Howard Hughes I am and Howard Hughes I will always be, I think.
All right.
Well, congratulations.
Lovely to talk to you.
Whereabouts are you in the U.S.?
You're East Coast, aren't you?
I am right outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Little town called Huntington Valley.
Now, let's get down to business here.
I want to know about you because your biography is giving me some skeletal details about your background in ufology.
But by the looks of it, it's a pretty long one.
Well, I've been on the Roswell case, solely on the Roswell case, no other case, for the last 22 years.
Grew up in Philadelphia, and as a child, you know, teenager, you heard stories about UFOs, and I was curious as to what these UFOs were.
And when I found out that they were possibly alien vehicles and alien beings, I became interested.
But when I read the first book about Roswell, the Roswell incident in 1980, that became my biggest interest as far as UFOs was concerned, because there you're talking about not just lights in the sky.
You know, everybody's sort of tired of lights in the sky.
I mean, the Phoenix lights case 15 years ago and the Stevensville, Texas case a few years ago, they were good cases, but it's so what?
You know, it's just sightings, no physical artifacts emanating from those cases.
But here in Roswell, the Roswell case, you have at least the case being made that there are artifacts that were recovered by the U.S. Air Force back in 1947 in the form of wreckage, physical wreckage, and biological beings.
But of course, a case that's been widely debunked.
They've spent 60, nearly 70 years debunking This thing and making sure that people believe that this is just folklore.
And they've pretty much succeeded, haven't they?
Haven't the debunkers pretty much succeeded?
No, I don't believe that for a second.
The Air Force's most recent explanation, the so-called mannequins from the sky that they used in parachute, high-altitude parachute testing back in the 1950s and 60s, they were laughed off the dais when they put that explanation out in 1997.
At least 50%, when they do the polls, you know, they do the Gallup polls, at least more than half of those polled believe that the government has covered up evidence of UFOs.
And at least 50% believe that Roswell was really the crash of a UFO.
Now, how did you go?
It's a huge step to take for an individual to be a young person reading about Roswell some decades after it happened and thinking, I want to know more about this.
Most people read, most people are intrigued, and then their lives move on.
It's a big step to be able to say, look, I'm going to research this.
I want to know more.
Well, number one, people do not read as much as they used to.
Mostly they get their news from television and radio, and readership has gone down dramatically, at least in this country.
But there have been many, many books written about the Roswell incident.
And not to pat myself on the back too hard, but everybody says that our book, Witness to Roswell, is the best book ever written about the case.
And we, people that write to us, they say, you know, even when they were on the fence, they say that we thoroughly convinced them.
In fact, I got an email yesterday saying that, that our book thoroughly convinced them of the reality of the Roswell incident.
Now, you talk about we, you're talking about yourself and Donald R. Schmidt, your co-author, yeah.
Yes.
We've been a team since 1998.
So that's, what, 15 years?
That's 15 years by.
I've always been intrigued by these writing partnerships in this field.
How do you get together?
Did you meet each other at a convention?
What happened?
Well, if you remember, the team used to be Kevin Randall and Don Schmidt in the early 1990s.
Oh, yes, I do.
Yeah, yeah.
And I believe they wrote the book that really reopened the interest in this case in 1991 called UFO Crash at Roswell.
And that was just like the Roswell incident book of 1980, I believe the 1991 book by Randall Schmidt was more influential in that they got lots of press coverage, lots of TV coverage.
This is before everybody had a computer, so people were still reading.
And that book really jump-started the interest in the Roswell case.
So along comes a movie.
A movie based on their book came out in 1994, was up for a Golden Globe Award.
It was so good.
And by 1997, you had all this 50th anniversary hoopla that was covered worldwide about the Roswell incident.
So that's what really got this into the public domain.
And how were you able to connect into what he was doing?
Okay, good question.
Here I am in Little Huntington Valley.
Don Schmidt lives outside of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and Kevin Randall lives in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.
That's right across the country, isn't it?
Yes, absolutely.
And so part of the Roswell story was that a group of archaeologists from the University of Pennsylvania had first discovered the down craft and the little bodies.
They were out in the Mexico desert doing a traverse looking for signs of ancient artifacts and so what have you.
And they came across this downed craft.
So I called up Kevin Randall because he was, Iowa's closer than Wisconsin to me.
So I called up Kevin Randall.
I said, what have you done about the story about the archaeologists?
He says, well, not a whole lot.
They had one lead, but it didn't lead anywhere and they haven't done anything since.
So I said, look, I've got a background in anthropology and archaeology.
I've had field work.
The University of Pennsylvania, where these archaeologists were from, is a stone's throw from me, right in Philadelphia.
This is amazing what you're telling me because I always believed that this was part of UFO folklore.
I actually didn't believe that these people existed, but they do.
Yes.
So I said, let me have a crack at this.
So I went down one Saturday in 1991.
It was in February of 1991.
I took the train into Philadelphia and I went down to the University Museum of Anthropology, where they have the Anthropology Library.
And I went into the stacks looking for what archaeologists were in New Mexico doing field work in the summer of 1947.
And also I called William Moore, who was the co-author of the Roswell Incident book in 1980.
I asked him, Bill, what archaeologists did you talk to at the University of Pennsylvania?
So he gave me their names.
And I interviewed both of them.
And I looked through the literature.
There's a number of archaeological journals that go back to the 1920s.
So I'm looking through for the summer of 47, and I came across a couple of names.
And to make a long story short, the two University of Pennsylvania archaeologists that I interviewed said, well, they never heard of William Moore, and they don't know anything.
The one fellow claimed he didn't know about Roswell.
What is this?
And he says, I don't know anything about this.
I believe he lied to me.
To this day, I believe he lied to me.
This is one of the team who was out there.
Yes, yes.
And this person said they didn't know anything about it.
Yes.
And the second one knew all about it.
And I'm thinking, oh my goodness, he knows all about it.
This must be the guy he was really out there.
And he said, well, you know what Roswell was?
I said, no, what was it?
You know, I said, you know, I know about the story, but as far as the inside scoop, I'm thinking he's just about to give it to me.
He says, well, it was a chimpanzee inside a V-2 rocket.
I said, oh, my goodness, because we had already discounted that story.
I mean, that it was a V-2 rocket just didn't happen.
So I said, oh, my goodness, he's making fun of me now.
Well, as it turns out, later on, and as I tell you now, that fellow, I am convinced, was out there.
I am convinced he was out there.
He was one of the names in the literature that I found who was in the area of New Mexico in summer or July of 47.
So what you're saying is that you think these people were out there.
Perhaps they did suspect that there was far more to this than met the eye, but they were, as others may well have been over this case, warned off.
Yes, yes.
Plus, they're professional archaeology.
You know, they're professors, right?
There's no academic that I know wants to have his name in the same sentence with UFOs.
Academic.
Especially if we think back to the era that those people would have been working in, the one thing, even today to a great extent, but the one thing that will really unravel your credibility is to be associated with anything that anybody might remotely review as wacko.
Yes, even expressing an interest in them will put you on the wacko list.
But by the time you get to, this was what, 1980 something when you did this, yeah?
No, 1991.
Sorry, yes, you said 1991.
So this was a long way after that.
Now, when people get to a certain age, you would think that after the elapse of so much time, they would have less to lose and they would care less about telling the truth.
Yes, yes.
But I'll give you another for instance in that.
We have found that professional people, people who are in the limelight, people whose career depend upon how people view them as being credible people.
There's a story in our new book that just came out this week, Inside The Real Area 51, that I include in the book.
It's about the stage screen and Broadway actor and singer, Gordon McRae.
Now, Gordon McRae was starred in Oklahoma and Carousel, and he was a big star in stage and screen.
Yeah, he was like an equivalent to Howard Keele, really.
Yes, yes.
A great singer, but he also acted.
And, you know, just everybody knew him.
And well, anyway, there's a story started in the 1980s.
It was actually started by Gordon McRae himself.
And after he died, it was repeated several times by his former wife, Sheila McRae, who herself was a stage and screen actor.
It was that the story they were telling was that in 1947, Gordon was in the Air Force at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and he stood guard.
He was called upon to stand guard over this wooden pallet, you know, that construction people use, the wooden pallet where they put things on and lift them.
Well, the pallet contained a tarpaulin, a covering.
And he was told to stand guard and don't let anybody near that.
And above all, for him himself not to look under the tarpaulin.
Well, you know, that's just...
Yes.
That's just an invite to, okay, when we're gone, you can look.
So he lifts the tarpaulin.
What does he see?
He sees three bodies, three bodies underneath the tarpaulin, described as you would just, as they're mostly described, small bodies with big heads, larger eyes, slip for mouth, no ears, no nose, just little orifices in the cranium.
And this was right at the time of the Roswell incident.
And not only did Gordon tell this story, he told it on television, but his wife Sheila told it twice.
And he couldn't have seen chimpanzees.
If they'd been flying chimpanzees up in a V-2 rocket to do a space test or something, he couldn't have seen those.
No, no.
Chimpanzees are covered with hair and they have little heads, little craniums for their body size.
Gordon McCree, he actually saw the archetypal UFO alien person, the big, as you say, the great big head and the little body and the hairless and the little ears, all the rest of it.
From the Roswell crash, yes.
This was from the Roswell crash.
So this story had been going around in UFO circles for years.
So I thought, well, you know, I'm going to do something more on this.
I'm going to nail this thing down.
So we're now, you know, sort of in the just about three years ago.
And I have a compatriot in ufology, Peter Robbins, who did the, he wrote a book called The Alegash Abductions about an abduction case.
And he's well known, you know, in ufology, great guy.
And he lives in New York and, you know, he attends plays.
Well, he attended a play on Broadway that Sheila McRae was in.
And he went back stage to talk to, I guess, some of the actors that were in the play.
And he ran into Sheila McRae and they're talking, and she says, Oh, what do you do?
And he says, Well, I do this, that, and this, and I'm interested in UFOs.
I wrote a book about UFOs.
And Sheila McRae says, Oh, my goodness, isn't that a coincidence?
My husband, Gordon, had a personal experience with UFOs.
And then she went and told him the story about her husband being at Wright-Patterson.
So she was still telling the story then?
Yes, yes.
So Peter and I, about three years ago, we said, let's nail this down.
Let's get Sheila McRae on the record.
You know, let's get a videotaped or at least an audio-taped interview.
Well, it turned out that she was already unavailable.
Well, she was in a nursing home because she's now in her 80s, late 80s.
And so we went through the family.
We said, can we possibly interview your mother about this story?
And the family didn't deny the story.
They didn't see anything like, oh, it's not true, blah, blah, blah.
They just did not deny it.
And so they said, okay, let's see what we can do.
And so a couple of weeks went by.
So we called the family again because we knew where she, you know, she was in a nursing home in New Jersey.
And the family had a change of heart.
They said, no, our mother does, she's too, you know, she has Alzheimer's and she has good days and bad days.
Well, we said, well, we'll take our chances.
And they said, no, no, we can't let you do that.
So the family stopped cooperating and we never did get to interview her.
But our conclusion was that their father is now passed away in about 1984.
They don't want to besmirch his name by having it dragged up and now associated with the Roswell incident.
And did he or her ever write this down themselves?
I'm not talking about having it written down by somebody else third party.
They never wrote it themselves.
No, but I'll tell you what we're looking for, Howard, is in New York, they have a TV library where they have recorded and stored in their stacks every TV show that ever was.
And you said there was an interview, so you're looking for that interview.
Yes, yes.
But it's the proverbial needle in the haystack.
We don't know exactly when it was done or exactly which show it was on.
We know it was like on like something like the Johnny Carson show or the Dick Cabot show or the Mike Douglas show, but we don't know when it was.
Okay, well, they were all, the three you've just mentioned were the biggest talk shows of their time.
And as far as I'm aware, every single one of those was kept somewhere.
Yes, yes, exactly.
And like I said, the story's been around for years, but we attempted to pin it down.
But I included it in the book as sort of a, well, here's a case that's still open, and everybody will recognize the names, Gordon and Sheila McRae.
Because the debunkers will say, they probably have said already, and they'll say to me on emails, that's all very convenient, isn't it?
We couldn't get anybody to go on the record and we weren't allowed to talk to Mrs. McRae because of her condition in the home.
Yes, yes.
And the family don't want to talk about it.
And my emailers will say, that's all very convenient, isn't it?
Yes, well, it's not convenient for us, but my conclusion is that professional people, and this is the bottom line of what we were talking about, professional people like doctors, lawyers, politicians, actors and actors,
well, most people in the limelight who depend upon their credibility for their careers do not want to be anywhere near the topic of UFOs in the same paragraph or the same sentence.
So this comes down to really hard shoe leather research, the old-fashioned journalistic stuff, doesn't it?
Because somewhere, somebody, especially at this length of time, before they shuffle off the mortal coil and leave this planet and go on to whatever existence there is next, if there is, somebody somewhere will want to break ranks and tell the truth.
I wonder why really nobody has.
Oh, they have.
They have the very first, we would not have a Roswell case unless Jesse Marcel, who was the intelligence officer at the Roswell Airfield in 1947, the first military person out to the crash site.
We would not have a Roswell case today if he kept silent.
And Jesse Marcel, of course, celebrated, it's in the movie, isn't it, that we were talking about, he paid with his career, didn't he?
Because they absolutely, if you believe that the Roswell thing really was an alien situation, they absolutely trashed him and his reputation and it ruined his career.
And the only person who can tell about it now is his son.
Yes.
He was the fall guy.
He was the straw man, let's say, that they set up.
Now, Jesse Marcel, you know, he's the intelligence officer for the only atomic strike force in the world at the time.
This was the elite of the American military.
The 509th Bomb Group was charged with delivering the atomic bomb or the hydrogen bomb.
They ended World War II when they delivered two of them on Japan.
So this is a high, what we're saying here is this is a highly savvy guy.
And if we just, for those who haven't heard it before, and I'm sure most people have, but there will be some who haven't, the chronology was that Jesse Marcel, in good faith, made an announcement about this, didn't he?
He announced it to the local newspaper.
I think he went on the local radio station there.
And he actually said, you know, it's an unidentified craft.
And then he was, once the equivalent of the modern-day men in black got involved, he had to unwind on that story, and they suddenly became weather balloons.
Yes.
Well, at the time of the incident, he, you know, he reported to the base Commander, Colonel William Blanchard, and Blanchard reported to the head of the 8th Air Force, General Roger Ramey.
And Marcel comes back from the site, you know, with a jeep load, a load of wreckage.
And so at the meeting that morning, they all pass it around.
And oh, boy, this stuff is, you know, really exotic.
And Marcel later said that he knew immediately that what they had on their hands was wreckage from an extraterrestrial craft.
And the story goes that Marcel actually took some of this stuff, the metal, home, the metal that you couldn't bend, you couldn't scratch.
It was not like anything that we have here.
And his son saw it.
You know, that story has been told a million times.
Have you any more evidence that it's true?
Well, yes.
Jesse Marcel Jr. himself, senior, passed away in 1986.
Jr., I was just with him last month down in Roswell.
You have to believe that here is a gentleman who he's a helicopter pilot.
He's a medical doctor.
He had two tours of duty over in Iraq.
And to know the man, you know, here is a credible source.
And here's a guy who had to stand by and watch while his poor father's reputation was produced by these people.
Yes, yes.
He was 11 years old at the time of the incident, and he handled the material himself.
So if you're 11, you know, it's not like you're four years old and you don't know what day it is.
He, you know, he knew what he had was something special.
And his father told him that it was, he believed it was from a UFO.
And what did he himself tell you, Tom, about that material and about that very special period, about that time?
Well, he repeated the story.
He's told it a million times of his father coming home early in the morning around 2 a.m., waking up Jesse Jr. and his mother to show them something that he said that you will probably never see again.
And they spread it out on the kitchen floor, all this metal, trying to make some sort of, you know, like put a little puzzle together.
And of course they couldn't.
But he said, son, you know, this, I believe this is material from an extraterrestrial craft from another world.
Take a look at this.
You'll probably never get to see anything like this again, which he hasn't.
And so Jesse Jr. described what they call the I-beam with all these little symbols on it.
He described that.
He described the nature of the memory metal that you can wad up in your hand and you hold it over a flat surface.
It'll just flatten right out when you let go of it and that you couldn't cut, scratch, or deform permanently in any way.
And he told you personally this story as well.
Yes, yes.
I was right there.
And what was he, when you looked into his eyes, what was he like to talk to?
Listen, Jesse Marcel Jr. is the salt of the earth.
He doesn't know what a lie is.
And he's absolutely, it's too bad everybody couldn't meet him because there you're talking to somebody who is just an honorable person.
He just would not lie about anything that I know of.
And what does he think, Tom, happened to this material?
Where does he think it is?
Is it in Area 51?
What happened?
Well, he said that one day his father came in and told him, whatever you saw, you can't talk about it.
Whatever you held in your hand, you could never talk about it because the Riot Act was read to Jesse Sr. and he read the Riot Act to Jesse Jr.
And so he, you know, he never talked about it again until later when his father broke silence in 1978.
And I forget what your question was.
Okay, where is this stuff is the essence of it.
We know it was taken initially to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.
We have witness upon witness who has told us that.
The material and the bodies resided there for 35 years until the early 80s.
And who told you that?
Several witnesses and other researchers who have looked at this have told us that in the early 80s, the bodies and the wreckage was removed and possibly went to Area 51 in Nevada for a while.
And from what we understand now, it's not there now either.
And where it is, it could be in Utah.
There's another Air Force type, used to be a gunnery range at Dugway, Utah.
One general says they're there.
And to be honest with you, Howard, we're not exactly sure as we speak where it is today.
Have you been able to talk to anybody who's actually seen any of this stuff from Roswell?
Apart from Jesse Marcel, Jr.
We've got over 600 first and secondhand witnesses in our in-basket that have talked to us about seeing to actually being a little part of this Roswell puzzle.
But we've talked to many who were out in the desert picking up the wreckage, and they all, the ones that saw them, all make a point to say that we saw the bodies, but there was one that was still alive.
We have a number of people who have told us exactly that, that they were picking up the wreckage.
They also saw the bodies, but one was still alive.
So we have witnesses from the site.
We have witnesses from the Roswell Air Base.
We have witnesses who flew the wreckage to Wright-Patterson.
And we have witnesses at Wright-Patterson who were stationed there, all telling us about the wreckage and the body.
So we have witnesses on the whole recovery timeline during the whole.
Which brings us to the new book, of course, inside the real Area 51, The Secret History of Wright-Patterson.
You're saying that this place is the place that we should be looking at.
Well, you know, Roswell is a name or a term that's known around the world.
Probably the second best known name is Area 51.
You mentioned Roswell, people know what you're talking about.
You mentioned Area 51.
People automatically think of aliens, right?
They think, oh my God.
Well, Area 51 was built in the mid-1950s to test high-performance, high-altitude spy planes.
The first one that was tested there was the U-2, the famous U-2 spy plane that was shot down by the Russians over the Soviet Union in 1960.
Gary Powers was the pilot.
That was tested at, it was built at Lockheed, the Lockheed Skunk Works, but it was tested at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio.
The next one, most famous was the next one was the A-10 oxcart that became known as the SR-71 Blackbird.
That's that big triangular shaped black high-altitude spy plane.
You know, 4,000 miles an hour, I think it went.
So anything really high-tech, anything the other side wouldn't have, anything that's beyond the pale is tested there.
That's the background.
Well, yes, and they also the stealth bomber and the stealth fighter stealth aircraft were also tested at Area 51.
It was chosen as the location because of its remoteness and because this flat, dried-up lake bed, Groom Lake.
And so that was a propitious place to locate a test facility, and that's what they did.
But what happened was, and all of that, nobody really cared about that.
Area 51 was not known when that was going on.
It wasn't until 1989 when a gentleman by the name of Robert Lazar came forward and he made a big splash in the media.
The famous Bob Lazar, the man who said he worked there.
Yes, yes.
Before that, nobody ever heard of Area 51, but when Bob Lazar came out and said, hey, I worked there.
I was an engineer, technician, and I didn't work on the spy planes.
I worked on captured or recovered alien technology, the famous sport model UFO that he talked about.
Bob Lazar is the man who said that back engineering and all of that stuff went on at Area 51 and he'd worked there.
The only problem is a lot of people researched into his background and didn't they find that key parts of his resume, his curriculum vitae as we call it here, disappeared.
Almost all of it was bogus.
Really?
But isn't there another conspiracy theory version of that has always been that certain people somewhere erased the real details?
Yes.
That's your conspiracy theorist.
I don't buy that for a second.
Have you spoken to Bob Lazar?
Have you met him?
No, I haven't, but I have a good friend who interviewed him.
And I won't tell you his name, but he's a good friend.
He's a good researcher.
He interviewed Bob Lazar not long ago.
And my friend is from Boston.
And Bob Lazar claimed to have gone to MIT, which I believe is in or around Boston.
Yeah, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Yes, very, very high, high, highly regarded.
Can't get any higher, really.
Not in the U.S., you can't.
Yes.
And so he's interviewing Bob Lazar, and he says, okay, I'm going to find out if this guy is real or not.
So my friend says, okay, Bob, you went to MIT.
Yes, that's right.
Well, there is an iconic monument or iconic, there's something iconic that everybody who ever went to MIT knows about right outside the main gate.
What is that?
I don't know what it is, but there's apparently something that everybody who's ever been to MIT will know about.
And he says, can you tell me what that is?
And Lazar couldn't tell him.
So that was it for my friend.
Because he didn't know that.
He says, well, he never went with the MIT because he would have known that answer.
So stuff like that.
Okay, but Bob Lazar said a number of things that other people have claimed over the years, that the real activities of Area 51 include back engineering, and even that there may be whole families or certainly numbers of aliens actually living there or nearby.
I don't buy the aliens living there, but researching our book, we do believe now that at some point in the early 80s, either some or all of the Roswell wreckage went to Area 51 for a period of time.
We don't know if it's there now, but we do believe now that in the early 80s, for reasons unknown, after 35 years, they moved the Roswell wreckage to Area 51.
The biological entity that was still alive from the Roswell crash, the most compelling story is that it expired in 1952.
We've heard a number of stories about, well, the one that was still alive when the craft was recovered.
And like I said, the most compelling story is that it lived until 1952.
We have a number of witnesses who saw the live one at Wright-Patterson during the 47 to 52 time period.
So that's five years when this person, this being, was alive, and those people told you that it actually was there.
It was there for five years.
It died in 52.
What sort of detail were they able to give you?
Well, the detail was because, except for the one gentleman who was in a Air War College class, they were taken there and shown the wreckage in 1948, and they were taken into another room, and there was the live one.
The detail that he told his son was that it had the classic look of large head, frail body, large, wideset eyes, a little slit for a mouth, and no nose, but just two holes in the front of the face and two holes in the side for the ears.
He said, you know, I didn't talk to it, but he said I felt great sympathy and empathy for it.
He said he couldn't understand it, but all of a sudden there was a mental connection.
They weren't talking to one another, but he just felt great compassion for it.
So the people at Area 51, where this being lived for five years, they had five years in which to communicate with it and get to know it.
It lived for five years at Wright-Patterson.
Right.
Okay.
Yes.
Understood.
It was dead by the time the wreckage in the 1980s went to Area 51.
But they experimented on it.
And in fact, this gentleman told his son that he used the term, we killed it.
We killed it.
We killed it during, it was apparently expired during some experiment.
I don't know what sort of experiment, but he felt bitter about the fact that he had this great empathy for it and that he later heard that it was killed accidentally during some experiment in 1952.
So we've got a triangle here, haven't we?
We've got the Roswell crash site, where there were people like those archaeologists, geologists who were working there.
We've got Area 51 and we've got Wright-Patterson.
Three crucial locations, yeah?
Yes, yes.
And the reason we did the Wright-Patterson book inside the real Area 51 was because we wanted all of the Roswell books, including our own, Howard, sort of leave off.
The story ends when everything goes to Wright Field.
It's sort of, that's the end of the book.
It all goes to Wright Field.
Well, we wanted to pick up what happened after it went to Wright Field.
Okay, what happened after that?
So that's why we wanted to write the book, was to at least continue the story of what happened after all that stuff left Roswell and went to Wright Field.
We also wanted to point out that Wright-Patterson was really the place where all of this stuff was going on.
They talk about re-engineering at Area 51, but it really all started at Wright-Patterson.
During World War II, they started, you know, they wanted to defeat the Axis, so they brought in Mescherschmitz and Mitsubishis and they broke them down at Wright Field.
There's a, you know, a hangar there, hangar 23, where all this was done.
They would bring the aircraft in.
They would take them apart bolt by bolt to see what the Mescherschmits, what made them go, and to try to develop an aircraft to defeat them.
That's what the re-engineering initially was all about.
So those were the people with the expertise.
It would make sense if you got something down from space.
That's where you'd take it and that's where you'd work on it.
Do you think that the myth, the legend, whatever it might be of Area 51 stuck out in the desert then, was a smokescreen to prevent us really understanding what was going on at Right Pat?
It may have been, but it was a smokescreen, but it was also because you had people jumping to conclusions when they heard Bob Lazar, and everybody started flooding to Rachel, Nevada to look at the, to try to find UFOs flying around.
So it was a double-edged sword that created by the UFO buffs who, you know, they go out there at night and they say, oh, my goodness, there's a light moving about the sky.
That must be one of those sport models that Lazar was talking about.
So it was fortuitous for the Air Force because all the attention was going to Area 51.
And has anybody who used to wear a uniform at a fairly senior level actually sat down and told you, look, the whole world is concentrating or has been all these years on Area 51, but let me tell you, the real deal went on somewhere else.
Well, not in those words, but we had General Arthur Exxon, who we talk about in our book, was the base commander at Wright-Patterson in the mid-1960s.
And he was also there in 1947 as a student in one of the classes that they had there at Wright Field when the wreckage came in and the bodies came in.
So he was there when the stuff came in.
He was there as the base commander in the mid-60s.
So there was someone of a high rank who was in the right place at the right time telling us, and I have to tell you, for a high officer to break silence like that, it takes some sort of courage.
But he was already retired, so they couldn't do anything to him.
And telling us that he himself did not see the wreckage.
He himself did not work on it himself, but he knew people who did.
And their conclusion was to quote unquote, the wreckage was from space.
The pieces of wreckage were from space.
That's enormous information.
I'm guessing that this gentleman is not alive now, not with us.
He died in 2005.
We met with him personally.
I met him personally five years before then down in he was in a retirement village in Irvine, California.
And we interviewed him down there.
And did he say to you anything along the lines of, look, I was there and part of this.
And although I didn't directly experience, I was there right through the period and know the people who were.
Oh, absolutely.
Did he say to you, I want the world to know this stuff now before I expire?
No, he didn't say that, but he told us what he knew.
I mean, he didn't have it.
He wasn't on any messianic mission to, although we've had people say that to us, he did not.
What's the most convincing thing he told you?
That the wreckage, that he knew that the wreckage was there.
He was there when it arrived, and he knew the people who worked on it, and they said it was from space.
Do you think there are any more people at that kind of level or nearby, close to, who might be able to corroborate some of that?
Yes.
Yes.
There was a medical doctor who was part of the, now he was a medical doctor after the fact, but he knew about the bodies.
He saw the bodies, and he told a friend of ours in person about being part of the medical team and the Arab medical facility and seeing the bodies in the 1970s.
This is still before they left Ray Patterson.
And we got this story from a fellow who lived in Dayton, Ohio, worked at the base, and he knew this doctor looked him up.
And because this person was, you know, he was interviewed on the radio and he wrote a piece or two in the local newspaper.
And this doctor knew he was interested in UFOs and he looked him up and contacted him.
And they met in person.
And he told them the story about, well, the bodies are this tall and they look like this.
And, well, how do you know this?
He says, well, because I'm the head of the Arrow Medical Facility and I know about them.
And so when we tried to, we located the doctor, he's still alive today.
Really?
Yes, he denied everything.
He denied it.
I believe he's lying through his teeth.
What do you think somebody got to him or he just doesn't want to get involved in this?
Yeah, he just doesn't want to go any further than telling this friend.
And we have no reason, our friend, to lie to us like that.
But does it not disturb you that somebody somewhere at some kind of level before they expire, before they shuffle off this mortal coil, doesn't go to the New York Times with all of this?
You know, nobody really ever has.
Well, you know, two or three fellas recently in the last two years have done that, but they didn't go to the New York Times.
They went to the, I guess it was the Huffington Post online with stories like that.
But the problem was each one was trying to sell a book that they had just written.
And so we did not, we discounted their stories completely because they were trying to hawk a book and trying to make a connection that, oh, they saw Roswell stuff.
And so that really, at least in my mind, that took them out of the realm of the believability.
Because there will be people listening to you now in the UK, in the US and around the world who will say, well, great stories from Tom Kerry, but of course he's out to hawk a book.
They're going to say that you're doing the same.
What do you say to them?
Well, we wrote a book.
That's true.
And we hope it, you know, we hope people will buy it.
I mean, what author writes a book that they don't hope to sell?
I don't follow that one.
No, I don't either, but it will be said.
But obviously, you've come out of this process then, and you now have this book that's been out for a little while now and is gaining traction and momentum.
Three days.
Three days.
Well, it's slowly gaining traction and momentum.
I've certainly heard about it in the UK, so it's going around the world.
What do you hope to achieve with this?
What would you like people to believe that perhaps they didn't beforehand?
Well, people ask me that often, you know, why?
You know, what do you hope to accomplish?
Well, I'm one that believes there's knowledge for knowledge's sake is good.
You know, we're not hoping to change anybody's lifestyle.
We're not telling anybody to lose weight.
Knowledge for knowledge's sake, knowledge will set you free.
That's true.
I mean, there's no doubt about that.
You must be hoping, though, that as this snowball process of this material coming out in drips and drips and drips and books like yours, you must hope that somewhere, sometime, somebody is going to open up the files.
Because I can't believe that these things have happened and people know about these things and none of it is documented.
It must be documented somewhere, just not a place that we can see.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
We always hope that there's somebody that we don't know of that has seen things and will testify to that.
The numbers are dwindling, I have to tell you, because the...
They're all dying off, yes.
There's very few left.
But we still hope.
I myself and my co-author, Don Schmidt, we don't think the Air Force is ever going to, quote unquote, come clean on this.
We found it interesting that last week the CIA finally admitted that there is an Area 51.
Wow.
And in fact, a lot of people have commented on this, and one of the things that they've said is they're only admitting this now because it's probably moved.
Anything that they were doing there that we didn't know about has probably been moved out of there to somewhere else by now.
Yes, yes.
And that's a possibility.
And I've heard that, and that is a distinct possibility because it's been moved elsewhere, perhaps to Doug Way in Utah.
Is that going to be your next book?
I don't know, but we like to flatter ourselves and think that, oh, they did it.
They came clean because they heard our book was coming out.
the fact of the matter is that it's gone into popular culture.
Everybody talks about Area 51.
I mean, there are so many commercial products that are called Area 51.
I know of a microphone made by a very well-known American manufacturer that's called the Area 51.
So this thing has gone into everybody's lexicon.
There you go.
There you go.
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
But the thing is, Howard, is we believe in setting out, we've been on Roswell now for a quarter of a century, and we've come up with a lot of information.
We've written two editions of Witness to Roswell, and now we've written the Real Area 51, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, where the Roswell material was taken.
And we believe the truth is good.
And so that's why we're writing the books.
Of course, we hope that people will buy the book.
And it will, you know, the feedback we've gotten so far is very, very good, very positive.
Just like the Witness books, which I have to say, everybody just loved.
They thought it's the best book on Roswell.
Well, this is the only book on Wright-Patterson.
And a lot of people will say this book is very much of its time.
Its time has come.
Do you dream, is your dream that one night, just like the Watergate situation, the phone will go and somebody perhaps calling themselves Deep Throat or something like it will say to you, I have some information.
Come and meet me in a car park in Philadelphia and I will tell you more.
Well, I don't know about the car park part, but people, this is interesting, people who have done that to us have all been bogus.
Have they?
They've all been bogus.
The people who come forward that we haven't found ourselves, the good witnesses are the ones that we have located ourselves and dug out and they want to know, how did you find me?
Those are good witnesses.
The ones that the scenario you just described, and we've had a few of those come to us with just like that, they've all been bogus.
And do you have in your own files accounts from people who don't want to be named and who've told you, I'll let you know this, but I don't think you can publish this in this form?
In other words, are there stories in your book, or perhaps are you planning something based on stories that you've been told by people who haven't been able to name themselves that you've perhaps had to not tell in their entirety or not even tell at all?
Yes, most of the time we are allowed to use a substitute name.
Pseudonym, yeah.
Pseudonym, that's right.
I was thinking of pseudonym.
Most of the time we use, in those cases, we say, may we use your story, but with a different name.
And if they say yes, then that's how we do it.
I suppose what I'm really trying to get around to, because we're coming to the end of this now, is are you sitting on some really good stuff that perhaps has not appeared in the book?
We are sitting on what so far is absolute proof.
Yes.
You are?
Yes.
And when do you anticipate, if ever, can that come out?
We are not the owners of it, and we are still doing some there is still some more research that has to be done on it.
On a scale of one to 10, how excited are you about that?
Well, we've very excited because it will be the skeptics all say, well, you guys don't have absolute proof.
I mean, you don't have evidence.
Well, testimony is evidence.
If you have enough evidence, I'm sorry.
If you have enough testimony, it becomes evidence.
And if you have enough evidence, it becomes proof.
Okay, so you have something that you can't tell me about from somebody that you cannot disclose that would be the absolute smoking gun.
Is that what we're saying here?
Yes, yes.
Okay, and how high up was or is this person?
I can't tell you.
I don't want to divulge anymore other than we have something that we've been working on for a couple of years.
And the problem is, you know, some people say, oh, well, why don't they just release it now?
Well, we're not going to release something or be part of something that turns out to be bogus because that will be it for us.
And also, you don't want to put anybody at any risk.
And as a journalist, if somebody says to me, this is off the record and you can't disclose it, but it's going to help your case and it's going to help your understanding if you know it for now.
Yeah.
You have to respect that.
Yes, absolutely.
And we don't want to be part of something that will blow up in our face.
So we still have some forensics to do.
And one of the problems, you know, is my co-author lives in Wisconsin and I live in Pennsylvania.
So it's, you know, and we see one another basically once a year down in Roswell in July.
Is the source of this information, is this a living person now who's had a senior position who has been through all of this and knows something more than we've heard before?
Or is it confirmation of something that's been suppositioned before?
See, if I go down this road, I'll be giving things away and I am bound.
I've got to try.
You know that.
Yes, yes.
All right, but look, I'm trusting you that whatever it is, that one day it will come out.
And when it does, it's really good.
We're working hard.
We're working hard to get this resolved.
Can I talk to you about it when it comes out if it does?
Oh, absolutely.
Oh, anybody can, yes.
And if we're looking at a time scale, are we talking about, because you've been in this for the long haul.
My God, you have.
Are you talking about this might come out in five months, five years, 25 years?
When do you think?
Well, let's see.
What's this, August?
Our hope was before the end of the year.
Really?
Yes.
Please keep me posted.
You've intrigued not only me, but let me tell you, I have listeners everywhere from Christchurch, New Zealand, to Cape Town, South Africa, to Paris, France, to Moscow, to Finland, and right across the US and Canada.
And they will all be waiting with bated breath.
That I know.
Well, so far, I am impressed.
There's only we've done most of the research on it, and we only have a little ways to go.
But, you know, Don Schmidt and I, we've been on this for a quarter century.
We're not going to do anything to jeopardize the source.
We're also not going to do anything to jeopardize ourselves so it blows up in our face.
That's not going to happen.
And you don't believe, just finally on this, because it is intriguing.
You don't believe that you're being set up by disinformation.
No.
Okay, well, that's...
I'm going to love talking to you about it whenever it does emerge.
And if it emerges this year, that's going to be fantastic.
In the meantime, if people want to know about you, Don Schmidt, and your work, what do they do?
Where do they go?
We have a website, www.roswellinvestigator.com.
That's www.all one word, roswellinvestigator.com.
And we've got to say the new book is called Inside the Real Area 51, The Secret History of Wright-Patterson.
That's it, yes.
And we felt because of all the Area 51 books, Wright Patterson being really the start of it all, deserved its place.
And that's what we did.
I believe it's the only book ever written about Wright Patterson in this subject matter.
Well, I'm intrigued.
I really wish you all the very, very best with it.
And I've found the conversation more than fascinating, Tom Carey.
Please look after yourself and take care.
And I hope we can talk again.
Thank you, Howard, and best of luck.
And I'm sorry for my error there in the beginning.
I was out running.
We've got to say to our listeners, this is very funny.
It's normally me who makes the mistakes about the timing when you're doing interviews all over the world with time zones.
I get them messed up.
The one I can never work out is Central Time in the U.S. because it's six hours, I think, behind UK.
And then there's Pacific, which is eight hours, and Eastern, which is five hours.
And I really thought I'd got the times mixed up.
And before we recorded this, I tried to get hold of you and you weren't there.
And thankfully, it wasn't my error.
I take full blame.
It was my error.
I read AM as PM.
Hey, but look, they say good things are worth waiting for.
And I think we've just proved that.
Yes.
I hope you learned something that you didn't know before.
And we felt that this book was warranted on several levels.
And we're glad we wrote it.
I know I learned some things myself writing the book with Don.
For instance, everybody's heard of Hangar 18.
And the Air Force, of course, will always say, oh, there is no Hangar 18, and there never was a Hangar 18.
So there's a whole chapter on that.
And is there a Hangar 18 or is it 17A?
It's Building 18.
Okay.
And what go don't leave me hanging in Hangar 18.
What goes on in Hangar 18?
Well, that's where all the good stuff was.
That's where all the Hangar 18.
I'm sorry, Building 18, which is connected to Hangar 8.
I'm sorry, I'm getting myself mixed up.
Building 18 was connected to Hangar 23.
And between the two of them, that's where everything went.
We have to talk again.
Thomas J. Carey and your co-author who hasn't been with us today, but we've referred to him a lot, Donald R. Schmidt.
Don Schmidt, thank you very, very much.
And let's talk again.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Well, I think a truly credible and very detailed piece of research there by Thomas J. Carey and his co-author Donald R. Schmidt, Inside the Real Area 51, the secret history of Wright-Patterson, and this couldn't be a better time to talk about that, of course, with the CIA finally admitting the existence, not exactly what goes on there, but the existence of Area 51.
I guess we'll hear more about this.
Your thoughts about this show?
Very welcome.
If you want to make a guest suggestion, tell me how you think I'm doing the show and how I can do it better, just go to the website www.theunexplained.tv, www.theunexplained.tv.
That is also the place if you want to leave a donation to this show.
There's a link at a PayPal connection there, and you just have to click, click, and you can make a donation to ensure the future running of The Unexplained.
Thank you to Adam Cornwell, my webmaster at Creative Hotspot in Liverpool, for his hard work on the show.
Thank you to you for keeping the faith with it, too.
I've got some great plans as we come up to the end of this year.
Some more good guests coming.
So please keep checking back at the site and we'll update you on what's happening with The Unexplained.
I'm in London.
My name is Howard Hughes.
This has been The Unexplained and I will return soon.
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